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107 The Parallels of Surfing and Golf: Tiffany Joh’s Insights on Golf, Surfing, and Finding Flow
Feb 11, 2025
What can surfing teach us about golf? - What can golf teach us about surfing? How does a former LPGA pro balance technique with pure joy in both sports?
Whether you're chasing consistency in golf, mastering the perfect wave, or just trying to stay calm under pressure, Tiffany Joh’s story offers a fresh perspective on finding balance between intensity and flow. As a retired LPGA pro-turned-surfing enthusiast and national golf coach, Tiffany reveals surprising connections between the worlds of golf, surfing, and music, along with how mindset and play can fuel long-term success.
In this episode, you'll discover:
The surprising parallels between surfing and golf and how these lessons can improve performance in both.
Mindset secrets for managing pressure and staying in the zone during competition.
Why consistency trumps intensity—and how 20-minute sessions might be the key to progress in any skill.
Listen now to learn how Tiffany Joh’s journey from pro golf to surfing can inspire you to embrace consistency, mindset mastery, and the joy of lifelong learning.
Notable Quotes:
"The best way to improve is to be really consistent. I'd take 20 minutes every day over six hours on the weekend."
"Golf and surfing both require a balance between technique and feel—you work on your craft like it’s the most important thing, but compete like it doesn’t matter."
"Surfers and golfers attract the same personalities. Both can be super personal or really social, depending on what you’re looking for."
"In golf, you never wait for perfection before stepping into competition—just go with what you have and make it work."
"Pressure is good. You’ve practiced it. You’ve been here before. Now just swing."
Key Points
Tiffany grew up in San Diego and started playing golf at age 12 after being inspired by Sari Pak's iconic win at the 1998 US Women's Open.
Tiffany started surfing at age 24 or 25 during her off-season from professional golf.
Tiffany sees parallels between surfing and golf in terms of the balance between technique and feel, and the pursuit of something difficult.
Tiffany's musical background initially hindered her golf development due to the perfectionist mindset in music.
Tiffany emphasizes the importance of consistency over intensity in both surfing and golf for improvement.
Tiffany uses visualization techniques and focuses on her target to improve her putting in golf.
Tiffany prefers to have a limited number of surfboards (3) and golf clubs, replacing them selectively based on needs.
Tiffany has not been to a wave pool yet but is open to trying it despite potential pressure.
Outline
Tiffany's Golf Career
Tiffany grew up in San Diego and began playing golf at age 12 after being inspired by Sari Pak's win at the 1998 US Women's Open.
Their father, a professor at San Diego State University, enrolled them in a free junior golf program where they became increasingly competitive.
They played for UCLA during college and qualified for the professional tour after graduating, spending 11 years on the LPGA.
After retiring in July 2021, they transitioned to coaching, starting with a Division 2 program in San Diego before moving to USC, and recently took a position as a coach for the US national team.
Introduction to Surfing
Tiffany started surfing relatively late, around age 24-25, during a surf trip to Nicaragua with Holly Beck, leaving their golf clubs behind.
Upon returning from the trip, they got a board and began surfing consistently, often doing dawn patrol sessions before afternoon golf practice.
This routine of combining surfing and golf became part of their yearly schedule, frequently taking surf trips after the golf season ended.
Similarities Between Golf and Surfing
Both sports can be frustrating due to the effort required versus the results achieved.
Consistency is key in both sports, with frequent short sessions being more beneficial than occasional long ones.
Both require a balance between technique and feel, with the ability to adapt to changing conditions.
Golf and surfing can be either introspective and personal or highly social, depending on the individual's mood and goals.
Both involve a lot of waiting or downtime between moments of action.
Trying too hard often leads to worse performance in both sports, emphasizing the importance of relaxation and flow.
Coaching Philosophy
As a golf coach, Tiffany focuses less on technique and more on mental aspects, course management, and helping players handle tournament-day emotions.
They emphasize the importance of practicing under pressure to prepare for real competition scenarios.
Drills that push players to the edge of frustration are used to help them learn to manage emotions and make adjustments under pressure.
Impact of Surfing on Golf Approach
Learning to surf helped Tiffany develop a more relaxed approach to golf.
Being a beginner in surfing and enjoying it despite poor performance helped maintain perspective in their professional golf career.
The casual approach to surfing positively influenced their golf game, reminding them to enjoy the process even when not performing at their best.
Staying Connected to the Target
In both golf and surfing, staying connected to the target is emphasized.
In golf, focusing beyond the ball and looking at a spot slightly in front while putting helps maintain awareness of the overall goal rather than getting too focused on technique.
Similarly, in surfing, looking ahead at the wave rather than down at the board is important.
Equipment Preferences
Throughout their golf career, Tiffany has owned numerous sets of clubs, often replacing individual clubs based on course conditions or new technology.
Driver technology changes rapidly, making it beneficial to use the latest models.
In contrast, their approach to surfboards is much simpler, owning only three boards for different conditions, mirroring their advice to keep surfing equipment simple, especially for beginners.
Fears and Cautionary Experiences
In golf, Tiffany's biggest fear is accidentally hitting a spectator or volunteer with a golf ball.
In surfing, their most frightening experience was getting tangled in a lobster trap rope while surfing near a cliff in Mexico, which taught them to be more cautious about ocean conditions.
Advice for Surfers
Key advice for surfers is to prioritize consistency over intensity.
Frequent, short sessions (20-30 minutes) are recommended rather than infrequent long sessions, leading to steady improvement and greater enjoyment of the sport.
Transcription
Michael Frampton
Hello! How are you? Sorry, I think we just had some technical problems. I saw that you had joined the meeting, and then—anyway, we're here now. Cool. All right. Well, thank you so much for doing this. First of all, I'm super stoked! Cool, let me just get the recording going. Okay, and you've got AirPods in—awesome. All right.
Okay, so can we start? Would you be able to do a little bit of a self-introduction? I think, you know, your background as an athlete and as a coach—and then we'll get into the surfing stuff.
Tiffany Joh
Yeah, sure!
So, I grew up in San Diego, which is a great surf town. Unfortunately, I did not surf growing up. I think I lived just far enough inland—about half an hour—that I was too lazy to make it all the way to the beach.
I actually grew up playing a lot of instruments and wasn’t really much of an athlete. But in 1998, a woman named Se Ri Pak from South Korea won the U.S. Women's Open in iconic fashion. On the last hole, her ball almost went into the water, and she took off her socks and shoes, waded into the water, and ended up winning in a playoff.
Pretty much the very next week, I picked up a golf club. My parents didn’t know much about golf, and I was only 12 at the time. The only reason our family was even watching was that this was the first time we had seen a South Korean female athlete on TV. It was incredibly inspiring for us as a people.
So, the very next week, I picked up a golf club. My parents didn’t really know anything about golf, but my dad was a professor at San Diego State University. There was a free junior golf program right next to campus, and I think in his mind, he thought, "Perfect. This is free babysitting. I can just drop off my kid and not worry about it during the summer."
That’s pretty much what he did, and I ended up getting more competitive through that free program. Eventually, I got recruited by a couple of colleges and ended up playing for UCLA. After I graduated, I qualified for the pro tour and played on the LPGA for 11 years.
I retired in July of 2021, and the very next week, I started an assistant coaching position at a Division II program in North County, San Diego. Over the past couple of years, I’ve been working at USC, which is ironic since it’s a big-time rival of UCLA.
Just this past month, I took on a new role as a coach for the U.S. national team, which is my new gig now.
Michael Frampton
Oh wow that's an impressive athletic background and resume wow and coaching now that's awesome okay so so when did thanks for that what when did surfing come into the picture?
Tiffany Joh
So it's actually a really interesting story so I don't know if you're super familiar with you know the way the LPGA tour works but there's actually like a developmental tour kind of like the equivalent of the QS going into the world like the championship tour so straight out of college I actually played on it's called the Epson tour so I played on the Epson tour for like a year and then ended up kind of getting like partial status on the LPGA tour so I was kind of jumping back and forth and and in my mind it's like the best
way to mentally play your first year of professional golf because like you're just so grateful to be playing any given week, right?
So I would go play in these, you know, developmental tour events and I would play well and then it would just like translate automatically to the very next week when I played on like the big tour.
So I ended up playing really well, playing my way to better status and then my second year I had full status and I played awful like missed every single cut like did horrible and by the end of the year so there's two ways to qualify to get your LPGA tour card.
One way is to spend a year on that developmental tour and the top 10 ranked players at the very end of the year get their tour card.
The other way is to go to Q school which is this like gnarly two week long high pressure tournament and by the end of it 20 women get their cards for the following year.
So knowing that I had pretty much played my way into a position where I was going to have to go.
back to Q-School. I think I intuitively knew that I was super burnt out from the season and really discouraged.
So I actually, at the very end of the season before I had to go to Q-School, I had like two months before I had to start getting ready for it.
I actually booked this surf trip with Paul Lee Beck, who's another guest that you had on your show. And so that was down in Nicaragua.
And so I flew down there, like left the club at home. There's no golfers down there anyway. And I ended up just like learning down there.
And then I came back and right away got aboard and started going pretty consistently in the morning, like driving the half hour to the beach.
And then I got into this great routine where I would go and do dump patrol. I didn't know enough about like reading the conditions.
I just kind of paddled out no matter what. And then I would come home, like eat some lunch. And then I would go practicing the afternoon.
And then a couple of months after I went back to Q-School, ended up breathing through got second. and I think ever since then it's been kind of part of my yearly routine that after the season is over when we have some time, I just go do some epic, I call it a treat to yourself, surf trip somewhere.
Michael Frampton
Cool. So how old were you when you started surfing?
Tiffany Joh
So I had to have there in my last year, I was probably 24, 25.
Michael Frampton
Yep, okay. Do you think having that background as a professional athlete and golfer helped you to learn surfing faster than others?
Tiffany Joh
I don't know if there were any like actual like direct ways that it translated, but I think there's something to be said for pursuing something that's really hard and really difficult to do.
I definitely think that I haven't played a ton of other sports, but surfing and golf both have to be quite frustrating in terms of the energy and you know the effort that
put in and what you actually get out of it. So I think it's kind of that pursuit of something really difficult.
So I do think that maybe that mindset really translated to help me maybe improve little bit faster than a normal person.
Michael Frampton
So maybe you got over some of the frustrations of surfing faster than others because it's similar in golf.
Tiffany Joh
Yeah, and I think there's something about maybe this is for for all hobbies or sports, but like, you know, I do think that the best way to improve is to be really consistent and both surfing and golf.
Like, you know, I'll take a person who's paddling out for 20, 30 minutes every day over the person that every other weekend is putting like six hours in the water.
Like, there's something, I think, I don't know if it's something with like your brain, but something important that happens in between all these sessions.
So it was interesting that the way that I approached surfing was really similar to the way that I approached
I'm a big fan of like a bunch of mini sessions, so, you know, even when I was playing professionally, I would like break up my session or my practice sessions into like three or four throughout the day and I would go do something and come back because there's something about that back and forth that helped me kind of process something.
Michael Frampton
Are you a golf nerd? Like did you really nerd out about technique and get multiple coaches and dive right into it?
Tiffany Joh
You know, I'm not and I've never been. I think one of the best, one of the funniest stories, there was one offseason where I had to get my clubs with regrets.
So I just went to just some random pro shop in the area and I brought in my clubs and the guys and they were so excited and I was what's the kick point on this?
What's, what's, you know, the shaft flex, I don't know, it was purple and I liked it, but which is funny because that's exactly how I am with surfing whenever we go to beach and people are like, oh, what's the swell direction?
Like, what's the wind? I'm like, I don't know how it looks wet.
Michael Frampton
So what's your how would you describe your role as a golf coach? Are you not focused on the technique and stuff so much?
Tiffany Joh
Is it more about the head game or? Yeah, I think, you know, at the college level, especially this new generation of golfer, I mean, they've been getting instruction, they've been doing fitness training since they were like eight, nine years old, and they are so polished by the time they get to us that a lot of what we do is kind of like helping them manage emotions on tournament day, kind of helping them with some course management, like, you know, plotting their way through the course.
Just, you know, like, you know, all of like the little things, and I think the little details that at this level actually make a bigger difference.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so just sort of eliciting them to get into the zone at the start of the round.
Tiffany Joh
Great.
Michael Frampton
And do you use those tools yourself, if the surface is particularly challenging and you're feeling the pressure or?
Tiffany Joh
No, I mean, honestly, I'm not really good enough to feel any pressure out in the water. think any time I get out there and regardless of what happens or how many times I go over the fault or whatever it's in me, I'm just so grateful to be out there.
So I think I actually do think in a lot of ways, when I started surfing, it really helped my mind set in golf at a professional level.
You're always going to take things a little bit too seriously, but it was kind of refreshing to go do this thing that I was horrible at and still enjoy doing it.
It's difficult being a retired professional golfer now because I still have these really high expectations, but I don't put in the time and the work to really meet those expectations.
So pretty much every time I go out there, I'm pretty frustrated, but I think with surfing, I'm always so happy to be out in the water that it was a really great thing to try to translate into my golf game.
Michael Frampton
Interesting. So your casual approach to surfing helped you took some of that into your golf?
Tiffany Joh
Yeah, absolutely. I think surfing in golfing there's so many parallel, but one of them is, you know, oftentimes the harder you try, like the worse it gets, you know, the more pressure you put into something, like the less, I don't know, flow you have or what have you.
So sometimes it's with golf, I, one of my coaches and those really young said the secret is to work on your craft.
Like, it's the most important thing in the world, but to compete like nothing matters.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so all of the hard work is done at the driving range, not when you're actually playing, is that what you mean by that?
Tiffany Joh
Yeah, and I think, you know, or on the putting green or the chipping green, and I think when you, a lot of the times when we're trying to figure out what thrills or tests or games we're doing in practice, a lot of it is to just push ourselves to like the very edge of the right?
Not make it so difficult that or so impossible to complete that you quit, but to really like push you to the edge of being really frustrated so that when you get onto the golf course, you're almost recreating that feeling and you know how to deal with it because you've practiced that before.
So in a lot of ways, you know, when people try to do, you know, putting drills or something and it's like a must make situation, they try to make it so there's as much pressure on themselves as possible.
So when they come down to the last hole. a U.S. Open and they have to make a six footer to win or whatever.
They're like, all these emotions that I'm feeling, like I've practiced this and I've been here before and I know the appropriate adjustments to make.
Michael Frampton
So you're giving yourself confidence in the practice?
Tiffany Joh
Yeah. I think everyone under pressure has some kind of tendency, right? So for me, I'm a very fast paced energetic person.
So, if I'm feeling nervous, I'll start walking fast, I'll start talking fast, start speaking fast. And in a lot of ways, that starts to mess up my rhythm.
So in practice, if I put myself under pressure and I practice consciously trying to slow myself down just to counteract, you know, how fast I go, then when I'm under pressure in a tournament, I can be like, all right, I know what I do, I know what my tendency is, like, this is how I'm going to adjust.
Michael Frampton
You mentioned music and I actually, I saw on your Instagram a clip of you, but singing and playing guitar.
It sounded amazing by the way. sing beautifully. Do you see parallels between music and golf and surfing?
Tiffany Joh
A little bit. I think actually in a lot of ways, my music go background kind of hindered my golfing development just because...
Yeah, I think there's this aspect of music that's like... So I played like in the marching band. was a concert pianist and played the violin at the little kid and a lot of it was like, I'm gonna perfect this and then once it's perfect, I'm gonna perform, right?
But a lot of golf and I think what I see with a lot of, you know, this newer generation is...
They wait for things to be perfect before they take it to a turn of it. But like, your golf is never gonna be perfect.
Like, you know, the tiger was the best player in the world. world and he wasn't even perfect. He didn't play a perfect round of golf.
So there's kind of this attitude with I think all athletes need to have. And it's, I'm just going to go out with whatever I have.
And I'm going to make it work. And I think it's a really difficult transition when you come from a musical background.
So when I was a little kid, Yo-Yo Ma had this practice routine where, you know, within a piece of musical composition, there's all these measures.
So he used to have this, he called it like a five quarter drill. So he would play the first measure, and then he would move a quarter over.
And every time he played it perfectly, he would move a quarter over. But if he messed up once out of the five, he would move them all back.
And then he would play the first and second measure together, first and second, third measure together until he was playing through the entire composition five times in a row, perfect, which is insane.
It must have taken forever. But that's kind of the mentality you kind of, you learn to have a music, whereas sometimes
I think with like their thing and golf, it's so condition dependent and it's never going to be exactly the way that you envision it and you kind of need to learn how to make adjustments on the fly and be okay with like nexting up and recovering.
So I do think sometimes that like in a lot of ways they're different. Now I do think that all of those things, all three of those things require a lot of practice and that kind of is beneficial and anything that you end up doing.
Michael Frampton
I guess with music makes me think you were referencing a particular piece of music, not just music in general.
And whereas I guess golf and surfing in particular is more like a jam session, you're not going into it with a particular way of playing or a song to play.
You're just going in to be in tune with the way that the wind is on the course or the way that
it's conditions I was surfing.
Tiffany Joh
Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, like, I think most athletics is probably more like improvisational, right? So, um, but, and I think this was maybe another parallel, I think, um, a lot.
So I don't, I came from like a classical background. So everything was like, you just go buy the book, you go buy like whatever the composer wrote for you.
But I do remember when I was in third grade, I met this kid from Kentucky who taught himself like jazz improvisational piano and it was so impressive.
But he was telling me like, you put in all this work on the fundamentals, you learn all the scales, you learn all the like different chords.
So, and then you earn the like kind of the privilege of having fun as you get to improvise. So I thought that was like a really cool thing because I think like, I definitely see the same thing with surfing.
Like, I don't know a ton of maneuvers, but when I see someone who's really good and they, you know, have their floater that comes back and everything.
They put in a lot of work to get their fundamentals down so that when they go out, they can have a ton of fun and be like very like improvisational and water.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, I've always thought surfing is kind of like improvisation or improvisational music, whereas, you know, if you wanted to play that way, it's still important for you to practice your scales and do your ear training and understand your instrument and etc.
But the reason you're doing that strict practice is so that you can jam and improvise not necessarily to perform a piece perfectly and that's where I sort of maybe see the analogy between music and surfing.
Tiffany Joh
Yeah, I agree.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, because most people don't approach it that way, but I think you see that in this swing and... All the different clubs at the driving range etc.
So that when they do go out and play on the course They don't have to necessarily think about it.
They just play the game right sure You just you mentioned that there were a lot of parallels between surfing and golf What what what comes to mind and why did you say that?
Tiffany Joh
I think just like the Exactly kind of along the lines of what we're talking about this like balance of like technique, but then also like feel right so in a lot of mental coaches and golf talk about like when you should be working on technical things and when you should just go completely on feel and and the consensus is that Before like you know in the week leading up to a tournament There's a certain line and everyone is maybe a little bit different where you like
work really hard on your technique, but at a certain point, once you're in the midst of competition, you kind of throw it out the window and you kind of just have to react.
It is actually, I mean, so I think I'd only been searching for maybe two or three years and I was just learning to like how the waves would go down the line, but I was super into it.
And I had a friend that played on floor with me who came down to San Diego to visit all the club manufacturers in the area and then we went and played Tory Pines and afterwards, I kind of looked, know, La Hoya is right there and I'm like, she was kind of fun.
do you mind before we get French if I just have a lot for like 20 minutes? And she's like, yeah, I'll just sit here and watch.
And I got out of water and I was like, well, you know, what'd you think? She was like, you know, you love surfing, you invest so much time and money and energy and I just, I kind of thought you'd feel a little bit better.
It was like, such a dagger to the heart, but my response was, Imagine if, you know, someone was trying to learn how to hit a golf ball for the first time, but every time they wanted to hit it, they had to sprint from 40 yards away, take six other people, and then like the ball might move somewhere else.
imagine how long it would take to like get better, because you don't have any opportunity to like in the rain, any type of muscle memory or whatever.
So in my mind, I was like, that's what surfing feels like to me. feels like I'm just paddling around, just like trying to get an opportunity to get all to get to my feet.
And you know, in a couple of years later, we played an LPG event in Hawaii, got my tape back, because we paddled out to like 10 news or something in Waikiki, she kind of got for a firsthand glimpse of how hard it was to win at a surf, but I do think that like it's similar in that respect, right?
You almost do, you have to like earn your, your, like, right? to things and I think golf at least is semi-accessible at times because you could just go to a dragon, but like to go out to a golf course and to play with other people it's pretty daunting and I think um I think for a long time I didn't really appreciate enough people who started golf late in life because I was so young that I don't remember this beginning stage of you know having to put in four or five years to get good enough to feel confident to actually go out to a golf course and play but having done that on like the surf side I'm like okay now when I go to the diving range and I see some you know 30-something year old woman learning for the first time I'm like I understand you know yeah interesting I guess golf is quite similar to surfing and in that way especially you think it might take you four hours to play 18 holes but each shot only lasts
Michael Frampton
what half a second?
Tiffany Joh
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So there's actually not that much golf.
Tiffany Joh
It's yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of walking. It's a lot of like, hunting and drinking for some people. But I, uh, it's just, and it's a small surfing.
I'm like, how much time did I actually spend surfing? Like 40 seconds today? Like I think most of it was just sitting there and like, and I do think the other reason why it kind of attracts the same personality, though, is it's kind of whatever you want to get out of it, right?
So it can be super introspective and personal and it could also be really, really social. And I think any given time, depending on your mood or, you know, at what point in your life you are, like, it can change, right?
So I mean, there were times when, uh, I played golf only because I was trying to get better. And I was just trying to like improve my game.
I had no desire to, you know, I had no desire to like interact with other people and I was just in my own little cocoon.
And then there's other times where I don't even care about any of the technique or getting better. I just want to go and walk around a golf course for four hours with my buddies and have a good time.
I think surfing to me is really similar where sometimes I just want to power a lot of well and I want to like try to find a little shoulder to myself and not talk to anyone and I want it to be really personal.
And then there's other times where I just want to be out in the water with a bunch of my buddies or any, in my case these days like sitting in the parking lot drinking coffee and looking at the waves.
But there's something like that can be inherently really social or really personal depending on what you're looking for that day.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's a great golf surfing analogy. So true. Yeah. I certainly have gone through stages where I'm so focused on getting better and then other times, you know, it's Lucy Goosey and just going with the flow.
Oh, I think both of those types of sessions inform each other. Have you gone through stages like that when surfing, like have you had any surf coaching done at all?
Tiffany Joh
So I actually, well, this is another guest on your pod, Ruhill has this surf retreat called surf simply, and the second year I was surfing, that was my, you know, off season trip, and he just completely, him and his coaching staff are insanely amazing in everything they do.
They're like, absolutely unicorn, but I mean, they just blew my mind with like the technical aspect of it, and you know, they film everything, they do like lectures, and as much as I think on the surface, I maybe act like, you know, very mellow, and I don't really care about the technique.
Like, at my core, I still want to get as good as I can, regardless of what level I end up being at.
So that actually is really motivational. because I ended up making a couple friends locally and this is our big COVID activity is we would you know since no one was really working so we would go to the beach and we would trade off at a camera I would put on a tripod and so everyone would do like 20 minutes at the camera and then afterwards I mean not that we really even knew what we were looking for but we kind of had an idea of what looks good and what looks bad and so afterwards we would grab a couple of rectus burritos and we kind of laugh at each other's lifestyles and then and then also try to start to critique each other like why you know we bogged a rail here or why like this you know we didn't you know completely cut back and and doing that it was so helpful because it's kind of listening to your voice on an answering machine it's never quite what you think it is really much so it was really helpful because in golf we talk a lot about feel versus real so feel you know with everything you do if you're trying to make some kind of change in your golf swing
You have to exaggerate it because when you bring it up to full speed, it's not going to be as much because your body wants to keep doing the same thing it's been doing.
And then when you get into competition, you're automatically going to revert back to what you're used to doing. And so if you look at some of the PGA Tor and LPG for guys and gals, when they're like doing their practice wing, it looks grotesque.
Because they're trying to exaggerate a specific movement because they know once I speed it up. And I think that's a lot of what I learned with the coaching at Sir Simply and then also building ourselves and then watching it back later.
Because if you watch it right afterwards, you kind of have an idea of like, this is what it felt like.
It felt like I cut back all the way to the white water and then you look at it and you're like, but I didn't.
So maybe the next time I have to really exaggerate that. And I think that's one of the things that Ru and his team taught me is you got to do something like too much.
You got to over. do it and then kind of find the middle ground from there. Um, and that was just like so helpful to me.
Um, as I, you know, trying to figure out to do this whole surfing thing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, that's a great point. I like that. Um, do you remember Happy Gilmore?
Tiffany Joh
Yeah. Chubs? Yep.
Michael Frampton
It's all in the hips.
Tiffany Joh
Is that true? Yes. Okay. And I had no idea, but surfing is true.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. The center, the center of gravity, center of mass, I should say.
Tiffany Joh
Yeah. I think anything where you're kind of mixing up like weight shift and rotation, like hips have got to have a really big part of it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I see a lot of similarities between, um, good surfing technique and good golf technique. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Yeah. And, uh, it's certainly something notice looking at you Instagram. and the way you surf you, you don't really have a post dance, which is great.
And that might be just because you're so used to, because a golf swing stance is quite an upright stance.
Tiffany Joh
Yeah. Well, I, you know, I think like if you look at anything athletically, I kind of never understood like the really side on like, I think you call it tacoing because you're like you're bent over and folded over.
Because like in golf, you're always like the biggest thing is regardless of what's going on here, you're really engaging with your target.
And so if you're not kind of squared off looking at your target, then like I've seen, you know, two types of golfers, the ones that maybe everything looks messed up from here, but they're always like looking out towards like the flag or the fairway or whatever they're hitting to.
And I'm like, that guy's got a chance, you know? but the one who has like complete blinders on and he's just looking at the golf ball and isn't really even connected to his target at all.
mean that guy, have no idea when that golf ball is going. Regardless of what's happening technique-wise with his golf swing, I actually have a funny story, another golfster parallel.
So I was playing the Scottish Open and this was maybe, I think this was maybe like the best round I ever had when I was playing on tour, but at the time I was kind of struggling with my putting and so my putting coach who's this Canadian guy came out to the Scottish Open and he's looking at my stroke and looking at the way I was reading everything and he was like, you know, everything looks really solid.
You just look really disconnected from the target and so he was kind of giving me all these like metaphors and sports of people like being really engaged with their targets, free car drivers and all that stuff and I was like none of these are landing and he's like, okay, sir, for a girl.
He's like, who's your favorite surfer in the world? And I was like, ah! It's got to be step he'll more like she's amazing and he's like okay Give me a second and he goes on Google images and he pulled up this image of her doing like a backside backside bottom turn And she's looking up at the lip and everything is like looking up at that lip And he's like it doesn't if you're like so focused on what's going on right in front of you And you forget about the target you're going to like he's like you don't stand a chance And so we ended up doing a lot of like visualization stuff where we took you know like a chalk pen and we you know drew out all these dots on the green and then I would basically just like roll balls over them and Didn't hit a ton of cuts I was just kind of doing a lot of visualization stuff and then went out the next day and just putted out of my mind Like had one of the best putting grounds in my life And that's like I don't know if it was like you know a direct result of that, but I do think it made a really big impact on me to like To like regardless of what I'm doing to like never forget where the target
Michael Frampton
good is and where I'm going. Yeah. So when you actually hit the ball, are you looking at the ball in that moment?
Tiffany Joh
So yeah, I think like when you take it away, like you are kind of looking at it, but you're not really focused on it.
You're just trying to swing. But there are a lot of professional golfers who when they putt don't look at the ball and they look at the whole because like the stroke is so short.
Like surely you're not going to miss the ball with the stroke. That's like a foot long. So there's a lot of people who when they really start to struggle with like gauging the speed or how hard they have to hit it or something like that, then they try to get themselves as target oriented as possible.
Michael Frampton
Interesting. So as part of that, do you sort of open up your peripheral vision?
Tiffany Joh
Yeah, so I think for me when I putt like my eyes are kind of
Michael Frampton
going towards the ball but I'm actually looking at a spot a little bit in front and I'm just trying to roll the ball over that spot because you know like when you're putting you're reading a lot of break so you're kind of trying to figure out like is this gonna break right is we gonna break left another thing that's kind of like surfing and then I like to kind of like take a spot and roll it over that spot but also kind of keeping in mind like where the hole is as well um so I'm I look like I'm looking at the ball but I'm actually not really focusing there interesting hmm so I guess it's kind of like um have you ever learned to juggle uh not really but I think I know you don't look you don't look at your hands right you kind of look up and you're you should see where the ball is coming and you should sort of know where your hand is and where the ball is going to be it makes me think that's sort of that sort of principle so you you have quite a
You have a sharp awareness of where the ball is and where the club is without necessarily looking directly at it.
Tiffany Joh
Right.
Michael Frampton
And that's, is that something that's purposely developed or does that just sort of happen over time with hours on the course?
Tiffany Joh
I think just intuitively with time, and I think a lot of it is just, you know, you say a lot something and then you try to grasp that straw to figure out what else I'm going to work.
I'm sure at some point people spiral will not be like, where am I looking? Maybe I should try looking somewhere else.
So I do think, and I don't think, you know, everyone is like that. I'm sure there are some people that do you like to look at a spot on the ball and then everything else is secondary, but that's just kind of where I felt like I've had it the most effectively.
Just because I think if I just focus on the ball, I get too wrapped up in what my stroke is doing.
And especially in putting like the stroke is so overrated. like anyone with a little bit of athleticism should be able to hit a ball like six inches on mine.
that's all you really need to do with a pot.
Michael Frampton
So that makes it makes a lot of sense. It really does. Even just the fact of it just purposely opening up your peripheral vision is actually a very calming thing to do.
So it calms your nervous system down. Did you do any specific visual training like eye exercises?
Tiffany Joh
No, a lot of it was like we'd use the chalk pen to like put out dots and then we would take like a straight one and do some dots along the line.
And then we would do like a big right to left your and a left to right because I mean 99% of putting is just matching up your line in your speed because it can be different.
mean you can make a 8-foot put on like five different lines depending on how hard it you hit it, like you can kind of drip and dye something in or you can kind of hammer it and like not put as much break.
So a lot of it was kind of that like some green reading exercises. So but yeah.
Michael Frampton
If what's your biggest fear and golf?
Tiffany Joh
My biggest fear and golf. That's a good question. think maybe like this is slightly irrational but I was playing in the British Open one year and a girl I was playing with hit a volunteer with a drive like in the head and we heard it from like 250 yards away and there was blood everywhere and he ended up being fine and he was actually like oh yeah I like my head bumped it over there and like his head was bleeding and he had a towel to it and he apparently I checked on him that night and he came back the next day to volunteer again but like that I think
think that scares me so much. you know, professional golf, when there's a lot of spectators, they kind of line the fairways.
So it looks very narrow. And it looks like if you hit it off line, that you could kill someone.
And I think that's definitely my biggest fear involved.
Michael Frampton
What's your biggest fear in surfing?
Tiffany Joh
I don't know. I mean, I'm not like a fearless surfer by any like I don't like going out in big or tough condition.
I do think there was one. So we live really close to the Mexican border. So my friend and I, my friend, Kat and I like to drive down and surf like Rosarito and stuff.
it's not like super safe. Like there's no life guards or anything. And there was one day and this was when I was early on in my surfing career and like didn't have any ocean knowledge at all where it was kind of
thing you know next to this cliff and it was like super high tide and it was a ton of swell and like some of the fishermen had put out all these lobster tracks and I wiped out on a wave and I got my foot like tangled in the rope around the lobster trap and I think that's maybe the most scared I've ever been in the water but um since then I've learned I've learned not to go out at super high tide with a ton of swell if the waves are breaking right against the cliffs yeah huh if you could only play golf with one club what is that club one club am I like just for enjoyment or am I trying to shoot a good score if there's a different answer to both those versions that I'm interested to hear both well I love putting it's my favorite part of the game like I love you know all the intricacies of it and stuff so
If there was only one part of the game I could do, I would just cut. But I think if I was trying to shoot a good score, I would probably take like a seven iron because I feel like I could hit pretty much any shot I need to with that.
And you can always put with it too.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Okay. What's your favorite surfboard?
Tiffany Joh
So, um, much like golf, I'm not someone that owns like a ton of boards. Um, have three, I have like a nine four nose writer, I have like a eight to egg and I just got like a like a seven to egg.
Right now it's the eight to egg. Um, it's like a, it's a jock haul who's like a local shaper in San Diego.
Um, when I actually bought the longboard on Craigslist when I first got into surfing and that was a Josh haul and I loved it so much and I contacted Josh to get the egg shape.
And he was asking me all these questions, like, you know, do you want to type in, do you like speed egg and.
I was like, I don't know. But I want it to be the purple that the exit emoji is. And so that's what I'm to go on.
Michael Frampton
Oh, shout out to Josh. Yeah, I've got one of his boards.
Tiffany Joh
It's one of my favorite boards. Love it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's a good approach, though. had just had three boards. I mean, so many surfers just own too many boards and make it too complicated.
Tiffany Joh
Yeah, and I think even with the board, I'm sure if you're really, really good, you can kind of sense all the intricacies when you go surf.
But for me, I need like a board when it's really small, like a board when it's like super fun.
And then, you know, a board where I'm like, all right, if I'm going to have to, you know, get out there and I need to get out test the light water, like this is going to help me without getting things washed up.
Like that's the only way I make my choice.
Michael Frampton
How many sets of clubs do you have?
Tiffany Joh
And so... Well, I probably have, I mean, I've given away a ton of them because I'm not, I'm not a hoarder or anything, but I think I've probably had maybe 30 sets of clubs in my lifetime.
I've probably given away like 15 to 20 of them. But I think for me, it's not like, I don't get, I don't replace full sets.
I'll have like, like 15 putters and then like, you know, 30 drivers. Like, I'm kind of replacing them one by one in the bag, depending on, um, sometimes it's, I would keep, you know, you're only allowed to use 14 clubs during a tournament, but I would keep 16 and based on what kind of golf course we're playing, I would kind of switch out clubs.
But, so I end up having like 100 wedges because, you know, a lot of that is very turf dependent.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Do, is that common? Do some people go overboard with, with clubs that have like, multiple different sets for different courses and
and this commitment at disadvantage?
Tiffany Joh
I think most people keep the iron pretty much the same. But yeah, with wedges, especially on the professional level, people are switching those out a lot.
Also with wedges because it's so skin dependent, you always want fresh grooves. wedges I was actually probably replacing at least once a month.
Then the driver pretty much any time a company came out with a new model I was asking for to try one, because driver technology is changing so quickly that it actually does make a difference if you have the latest and greatest model in your bag.
But then cutting is so intuitive and field-based. You can put with the same putter your entire life. So I think I've only put with maybe three or four different putters in my career in competition.
So wedges I probably have. I mean, we use them as like door stops and like we use them to like...
You know, what changed the bets on the air conditioner and stuff.
Michael Frampton
Funny. Have you ever been to a wave pool yet?
Tiffany Joh
I haven't. I'm not sure I would like it. I think I would feel a lot of pressure.
Michael Frampton
You'd be used to the pressure though.
Tiffany Joh
Maybe. But I would just, I think I have a feeling that I did have a friend actually who used to work first or simply and, you know, they did a wave pool kit that she was saying.
She played volleyball at the college club. So she was used to like pressure and competition and she said that hours leading up to like going to the wave pool, she was, she felt like she was out of meat.
Michael Frampton
She was like, it was just the tension was just. Yeah. suppose everyone's watching and it's your turn. Yeah. But pressure makes diamonds, they say.
Tiffany Joh
And I do kind of like the idea that if you miss it, there's someone that can pick it up.
Like it never goes wasted. Right. There's always like a second or whatever. person who could like pick up whatever you missed.
that makes me feel a little bit better.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's kind of like the driving range for surfers. Yeah. Yeah, and they're popping up everywhere. So yeah, I think it's going to change surfing for the, well, maybe for the bed and we'll see.
All right, well, Tif, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. It's awesome. Um, if there was one, if there was one piece of surfing advice, you could leave listeners with what would there be?
Tiffany Joh
Um, I think just going back to consistency over intensity. Um, I wish I could say, I know everyone says like the best or from the water is having the most fun, but the person having the most fun is like probably the person who's getting better and seeing improvement and being encouraged.
um, I'm going to go with consistency over intensity, like put it in 20, 30 minutes consistently, rather. then, you know, five hours every other time.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I liked it. I think there's a lot of truth to that saying, you know, the best surface having the most fun.
Obviously, you know, outside of competition surfing, because that's different. I don't think surfing is even a sport.
Tiffany Joh
Sometimes I don't think so either. Yeah, more of a sport than golf, though.
Michael Frampton
Well, yeah. Yeah, if you can, if you get a sport, you can do in your pajamas with a cigarette hanging out of your mouth.
Tiffany Joh
Maybe it's not a sport and a beer in one hand.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Exactly. I will tip.
Tiffany Joh
What's your Instagram? So people can follow along. So my Instagram is tip Joe T I F F J O H.
It's like 90% tacos, but during that, that would be interesting to follow.
Michael Frampton
All right. Cool. I will have links to that in the show notes.
Tiffany Joh
Again, thank you so much for taking the time. Awesome.
Michael Frampton
Thank you.
106 Surf Everyday Until Sponsored - Silas’s Bold Mission
Jan 09, 2025
What does it take to master surfing when you start late, face fear, and dive into the complexities of surf culture?
In this episode, Silas shares his inspiring story of committing to surfing at 19 and navigating the highs and lows of his journey. From mastering line-up politics to dealing with fear and embracing dry-land training, Silas offers a refreshing perspective on what it means to pursue passion while staying grounded in the realities of surf culture. If you’re looking to improve your skills or gain insight into the unwritten rules of the surf world, this episode is packed with practical tools and honest wisdom.
Learn how to approach line-up politics and navigate the culture shock of the surf world with respect and confidence.
Discover the benefits of dry-land training, video analysis, and unconventional balance exercises to improve your surfing skills.
Get actionable tips on conquering fear, entering a flow state, and even surfing through chandelier barrels with your eyes closed.
Take your surfing skills and understanding of the surf culture to the next level—listen now!
In this episode:
How negotiate line-up politics
How to deal with the surfing culture shock and
How to surf with your eyes closed - make a chandelier barrel section.
How and why to improve your balance and vision.
Tips for dry-land training
Practical tools to improve surfing skills, from dry-land training to video analysis.
Techniques for managing fear and entering a flow state.
The importance of respect and connection in surf culture.
How to set goals and define success on your own terms.
This episode provides actionable advice, personal inspiration, and insights into building a fulfilling surfing journey.
Key Takeaways from This Episode
Rediscovering Passion
Silas shares how reconnecting with surfing reignited his sense of purpose and transformed his life.
Overcoming Adversity
His journey from a challenging childhood to a dedicated surfer illustrates resilience and determination.
Commitment to Improvement
Learn how coaching, video analysis, and consistent practice can accelerate skill development.
Facing Fear and Embracing Flow
Silas offers strategies for confronting fear in the water and achieving the elusive "flow state."
Purposeful Social Media Use
Gain insights into leveraging social media to document progress, create opportunities, and inspire others.
Respecting Surf Culture
Tips on navigating local surf dynamics, building community respect, and thriving in new environments.
Defining Success Your Way
Silas emphasizes growth, passion, and creating opportunities over conventional measures like sponsorships.
Outline
Early Surfing Experience
- Silas first tried surfing at age 4 with their mother, but had a negative experience due to salt water and tumbling waves, leading to a memorable fight with their mother.
- At age 12, Silas rediscovered surfing during a family vacation to Hawaii, falling in love with it again and deciding their dream was to become a professional surfer and marry a Hawaiian.
Challenges During Adolescence
- Between ages 12 and 19, Silas experienced difficult times at home, including issues with their mentally ill stepfather, which stunted their ability to pursue surfing.
Reigniting Passion for Surfing
- At age 19, Silas's cooking school instructor suggested they move to Tofino to surf, reigniting their passion.
- In Tofino, Silas got a job at a beach resort and began surfing intensively, teaching themselves initially before getting a surfing coach to improve further.
Social Media Challenge
- Silas started a social media challenge 73 days prior to the interview, posting a surfing video every day until they get sponsored, aiming to dedicate themselves more to surfing and improve their skills.
- Silas views social media as a tool for progress rather than having specific sponsorship expectations, seeing any opportunities arising from it as worthwhile.
Philosophy on Surfing Enjoyment
- Silas believes in the logarithmic nature of surfing enjoyment; the better one gets, the more fun it becomes exponentially.
- Silas aims to be around people who share their passion for surfing and making surf films, having recently lived a 'bum surfing lifestyle' to focus on the sport.
Inspiration and Goals
- Silas acknowledges starting surfing later than many but does not see it as a reason not to try, finding inspiration in surfers like Kelly Slater who continue to compete at an older age.
- Silas is open to various paths in surfing, not necessarily aiming for traditional pro surfing sponsorship but exploring different opportunities in the surfing world.
Training and Improvement Techniques
- Silas has found working with a coach and analyzing video footage to be the most helpful in improving their surfing.
- They practice pop-ups on dry land and have considered trying to surf goofy-footed based on viewer comments on their videos.
- Silas struggles with compression and getting low while surfing, recognizing it as an area for improvement.
- The interview discusses various training techniques, including practicing in front of mirrors, skateboarding with surfing techniques, and using slacklines for balance.
- Emphasis is placed on the importance of body awareness, balance, and vision training for surfing improvement.
Interacting with Other Surfers
- Silas finds interacting with other surfers in the lineup challenging, preferring to focus on surfing rather than socializing extensively.
- The transition from surfing beach breaks in Tofino to crowded point breaks in New Zealand was initially discouraging for Silas.
- The importance of being respectful in the lineup while still asserting oneself is discussed, along with the potential for relationships to develop over time with other surfers.
Surfing Philosophy and Overcoming Fear
- Silas emphasizes the value of surfing in all conditions, even when forecasts are poor, to maximize time in the water and improve skills.
- Silas identifies fear as a significant challenge in surfing, particularly in committing to waves in critical moments.
- They draw parallels between overcoming fear in surfing and staying present in the moment, similar to appreciating current progress rather than fixating on future goals.
Flow State and Future Plans
- The concept of flow state is discussed, with Silas relating it to experiences in both surfing and their work as a chef.
- The interview touches on the science of flow states and their relevance to surfing and other sports.
- Silas is planning to move to the South Island of New Zealand, particularly Dunedin and the Catlins, without a specific job lined up.
- They express a philosophy of making decisions and observing how their environment responds, following opportunities that seem to 'click into place'.
- Silas maintains an open mindset about their future, willing to embrace both positive and negative outcomes of their choices.
Transcript
Michael | 00:00
When did you start Surfing?
Silas | 00:02
Not until about two and a half years ago. Okay.
Yeah. So One of my earliest memories with my mom is a fight we had because she took me Surfing and I got up on a wave and she saw how lit up I was and how much I had just like, and maybe she hadn't seen that with other things because I was doing sports my whole life, all sorts of different sports.
Michael | 00:07
Where were you and why surfing?
Silas | 00:34
And when I fell and I got the salt water in my mouth and the tumbling of the wave, I did not want to do it anymore. I was out. I was like, no, get me out of here. And she wanted to make me keep doing it because she saw how much I enjoyed it. And I was like, no. And it was this like huge fight that I'll probably remember for the rest of my life.
And then I didn't touch it again until I was 12. We went on a family vacation to Hawaii.
So And then, yeah, when I was 12, we went on a family vacation to Hawaii and I did a lesson there and like really chill waves.
Michael | 01:01
How old were you when the first thing happened? Four. Four, okay, wow.
Yeah.
Silas | 01:16
And I like fell in love with it all over again. Like it was like, I completely forgotten that was, you know. And so I decided at the age of 12 that my dream was to become a professional Surfing and marry a Hawaiian. And so, yeah, that's loosely what we're going for in some sense, you know.
Michael | 01:44
Well, you made that decision when you were 12. Yeah. But you're not 14 now.
So what happened between 12 and? A.
Silas | 01:51
Lot, a lot of stuff happened, yeah. I went through some not so great things in like my home growing up and I had a lot of responsibility from a very early age. And I think when really bad things happen, it really stunts your ability and in most aspects of your life, you know, you kind of forget, get lost in the hurt and forget about the things that you love that, yeah. Especially at an early age, I think it's kind of hard to navigate your way through that without much experience, you know.
So yeah, I guess I just kind of got caught up in what was going on. And I was busy kind of providing opposed to just doing what I wanted to do and sticking true to that.
And then when I was 14, I served again in Hawaii and that kind of, again, almost got there, but not really. And then when I was finishing my cooking school to become a chef, my instructor was like, why don't you go move to Tofino and go Surfing? And he didn't know that I had surfed or, you know, anything. He just said it and this like lights was like switched on in my head. And I was like my God, like I have to do this.
Michael | 03:23
So how old were you when this happened? 19.
Yeah, okay.
Silas | 03:29
Yeah, like 18, 19. And so as soon as I was done my course, part of the requirements for the course is to work, I don't know, I think it's like 600 hours in the industry.
So I went and got a job in Tofino, which is the Surfing town. And at this five -star resort that was like right on the beach, they had staff accommodations.
So like two minute walk to the beach. And yeah, I just got after it.
Like I started charging, I bought like a nine foot soft top and like a shitty wetsuit. And I just started going out like past the break.
Like I had no experience really besides the one or two times I'd done it when I was younger. And I just started figuring it out.
Like I didn't really like, you know, have somebody like showing me the ropes. It was like, I was so eager and so keen and it was so outside of my comfort zone and I didn't care.
Like, and it's like a passion that I have that I don't have with anything else. Like there's no other thing in my life that drives me in that way, you know, that I've had this like such an intention for, feels like, you know. And from there, yeah, I just got better and better because I was going like every day.
And then it got to the point where I'd gotten a hard top. I think it was like a seven two and I see people doing turns and stuff. And I like, I know I want to get there, but I have no idea. And that was when I got a Surfing coach because I was like, I could consistently catch green waves and trim them nicely and ride them. And yeah.
Michael | 05:08
Okay, so you're 19 when you rediscovered Surfing and committed to it. Yeah. And so you're 21 now? 22. 22 now, okay.
So I'd be remissed if we skipped past that sore point we touched on. Did you lose a parent or something at 12 or? No.
Silas | 05:31
So my stepdad, he was quite a mentally ill person. I don't hold any like anger, hate towards him because he genuinely is like, he's in his own world.
You know, he's not capable of, but he was my dad growing up. Like he met my mom when I was two and he raised me like he was my dad.
Yeah. And they were married for 10 years. They had three kids together and all three of my siblings sort of have some sort of disability. And I didn't necessarily. And I received a lot of like hate from him without knowing why, you know?
Like it was like, because most of the time he was like the supportive, loving father. And then other times he would be like, I felt excluded all the time because like I wasn't his kid or whatever, but they didn't even tell me until I was 12.
So up until that point, I had thought that he was my real dad. And then they kind of broke it to me because you know, I'm a little bit darker than my siblings.
You know, I look different. And he would like Dall-E the N word when I was like growing up to like try and like make me feel bad about being different. And like, I don't even know why I'm different, you know?
So it was like always this, yeah, really not a nice game to play really. And, but they ended up splitting up and my younger brother, I have five siblings now. The one after me, he kind of got caught in the middle of it because it is actually his dad. And my stepdad kind of like twisted him up and like really messed his head up and just kind of like alienated him. And yeah, so, and yeah, my brother went to rehab like the week that I left for New Zealand.
So yeah, and it's been a struggle. And yeah, like that's my baby brother, you know, I had to watch him go through that. And I'd say that was probably the hardest thing about all of it was that there was nothing I could do.
Like I just had, I was helpless. I just had to watch it happen and there was nothing I could do. It was just the way it was. And it was really hard to come to terms with that and work through that mentally. And, you know, of course there's lots of, I could go on and on about the crazy shit that happened, but that's kind of the gist. And yeah, but like I know my birth dad now. I met him after. And yeah, we're really good friends and we've supported each other a lot since we've met and like made each other better.
You know, we were both very blunt people. And like, even though he didn't raise me, like we're like the same person. And it's so crazy to see like genetically because we're so similar. And I never knew him my whole life, but like when I met him, I was like, there is like somebody else that's like pretty similar to me out there.
Cause like I don't experience it a lot. It's yeah, like a genuine good connection that I find quite rarely.
Yeah. So to find that with my dad through like, but like in like a more of like a mutual kind of way opposed to like, he's my dad and I'm his son kind of thing, you know?
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael | 09:12
Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah. It's not always easy.
Yeah. Like a little bit of experience. And my boys, their mother was quite mentally ill before she passed away.
So I had to deal with her and that sort of thing. My kids sort of went through, sounds like something a little bit similar to you, but different, but yeah, it's not easy, but it does.
Silas | 09:34
I'm so happy. Like I wouldn't trade my life or my experiences for anything.
Cause like I'll never ever be in as bad of a place as I was, you know? And I experienced that at an early age and that's like done. It's like only forward, you know, kind of feels like because yeah, it can't get much worse than that.
Michael | 10:00
I think it's a common thread between amongst a lot of great people is they have a traumatic childhood often. And it can go either way where you end up under a bridge with a needle in your arm or you can become one of the best in the world at something.
Yeah. And it looks like you've chosen the right path and hopefully your brother sticks with rehab and finds his way as well.
Yeah.
Silas | 10:24
And I've offered him that arm as well. Like when you're serious and you wanna come over here wherever I am and work, put your head down, like partying and like being a hooligan. I want that for you and I'm here for that. But until you're willing to take that seriously, I can't have you coming over here and like messing up what I have going for myself, you know? And it's really hard to create that boundary as well.
Michael | 10:50
Well, it's like those experiences can light fires and people and obviously it's lit a Surfing fire in.
Silas | 10:57
You. And he sees it too. And he's like, you know, he's, yeah, he sees it. And I think it kind of inspires him a little bit, you know? He's like, he's always like man, I wanna be out there, you know?
Like, yeah, so, yeah.
Michael | 11:11
Cool. And okay, so that, and then you rediscover Surfing at 19. You've stuck with it since.
And then I came across you through via Instagram. And it was, correct me if I'm wrong, but posting a surfing video every day until I'm sponsored. And that started about 70 days ago, was it?
Silas | 11:34
73 days ago.
Michael | 11:35
73 days ago. Okay. And we're two days before Christmas in December, 2024. And so what happened 73 -ish days ago?
Like what, why?
Silas | 11:50
Yeah, I've struggled on and off with social media. I see it as like a negative thing and I don't see it as something that's super beneficial and I've wasted a lot of time on it. And I kind of had a moment where I like redownloaded it and was like, you know, kind of like getting into posting stuff again. And I was like, you know, like, what am I doing?
You know, like, what's the goal here? Cause I'm not, I hate wasting my time. I really do. Not that I can't relax and enjoy doing nothing, but I don't like spending my time on things I don't think are gonna like, yeah. Benefit me.
So I just, I wanted to start posting content, but I didn't know what, but I'm Surfing every day and I've got this mouth mount for my GoPro. And I know that I want to go in the direction of dedicating myself more and more to Surfing and getting better. And I just kind of said, fuck it. I was like, yeah, I'm like, let's do it. Let's see what happens.
Like, you know, like I'm just gonna keep going. I don't care if I get to day 1 ,137, I'll do it.
Like, yeah. Okay.
Michael | 13:14
So, but what about the Surfing side of it? Like, and like, this is such a specific, like until I'm sponsored.
Silas | 13:24
Yeah. Well, I kind of like that it just says that because people automatically assume that I want to be like sponsored by a big company and like in that top tier of Surfing, I don't necessarily like need that or want that. That's not like the goal for me, but to get sponsored is very broad, you know? And I think it leaves opportunity for a lot of different things, opposed to being like, I just want one thing because I don't even know what that would be at the moment, you know?
So I think it's kind of nice to just leave it open -ended and like having people like you, like reach out and be like, you want to go on a podcast? That's not getting sponsored, but that's an opportunity and that's super cool, you know? And I think really anything that I get out of it is, yeah, totally worth it.
Yeah.
Michael | 14:20
Yeah. I mean, obviously you want to get better at Surfing.
Silas | 14:23
Yeah.
Michael | 14:24
Yeah. And you know, the better you get, the more fun it is.
Yeah. It's like a logarithmic thing, you know? The better you get, the more fun it is times 10 and that just keeps going.
Silas | 14:33
And going. Yeah, I make Surfing films and like that trip to Tahiti, there was just 10 of us and we were all surfers and videographers, you know?
Like I want that. I want to be around people who have that passion for Surfing as well as me. And I know that that's like the happiest I could be, you know, living that life. And I've been working part -time the last probably six months and just Surfing a lot. And it's been really good, but now I'm super broke and I'm like living in my van and I'm kind of living this like bum Surfing lifestyle. And it's what I wanted for my whole time in New Zealand, but I've only gotten a slice of it, but it's been pretty good.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm pretty stoked about it.
Yeah.
Michael | 15:24
It sounds like things are falling into place. Yeah. I think that's what's good about social media is it can be very inspirational.
Yeah. Like it does make me, do you follow Gravey at all? No. No? No. Do you know who he is? No. No? Okay, so gosh, I don't know his exact story, but I know that he's huge now.
Like he's probably one of the most popular Surfing.
Silas | 15:50
Okay.
Michael | 15:51
Yeah. He's a real stop. He's probably one of the most well -paid surfers.
Yeah. And he's a very average surfer.
Well, he's a good Surfing, but compared to a pro shortboarder, he doesn't come close. And he's made a following and a living out of sharing his journey. I think sobriety is how he sort of replaced drinking with Surfing basically. I may be misspeaking, so I don't know his exact story. And he surfs novelty waves. One of his goals was to surf every state in America.
So he's Surfing lakes and surfing rivers and chasing fairies on jet skis to surf the wakes off these big boats. And then he hooking up with Jamie O 'Brien, who's another sort of ex -pro who's gone massive with social media and that they're Surfing big waves and stuff.
So those guys who don't take the pro Surfing sponsored route, but end up being essentially sponsored surfers, they actually earn way more money. Yeah. And they don't have to be away from their family all the time, traveling on someone else's pro tennis tour schedule. Whilst it may be unrealistic when people first hear, I wanna become a sponsored Surfing, but I've only really started when I was 19. Because you're competing against rich kids that started when they were five. There's so many different ways to look at it.
Silas | 17:20
Yeah. I think because I started late, it's like, I understand the situation. I get it, but I don't think that means that I just shouldn't try. And I think Kelly Slater is super inspirational for me because he's still doing that at 50. And I figured, even if it takes me 10, 15 years, I'm here for it. And to be able to share that and be able to look back through all the progress is gonna be phenomenal.
Michael | 18:01
Yeah. I don't regret. You don't regret a Surfing. No. Even if it was a bad surf and something, you'd never regret going Surfing. And I think it's a worthy pursuit and it's something that even Kelly Slater himself still wants to get better. And there's people like Skip Fry who are in their 80s who still go Surfing every day. If you keep doing it, you can still... It's a lifelong pursuit basically.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think you sharing it on social media, it's inspirational. It's gonna be interesting to follow your journey. You've only just started. You get to that point where you've got a certain level of follows and it will sort of Yeah. It will take on a new form, I'm sure. And.
Silas | 18:50
Even if it doesn't, that's okay. You know, like I don't really have any, I don't know, like expectations or like dead set intentions. I'm just like putting it out there, you know? And seeing what happens.
Yeah. Kind of letting it just, instead of trying to like force it in one direction, you know, just like see where it takes me.
Yeah. Yeah. Just.
Michael | 19:18
Get better at Surfing. Yeah. Keep it simple. I like that.
Yeah. What's been, what's in the last, since you rediscovered surfing at 19, the last three years, what's been the thing that's helped you the most with Surfing? A coach.
Silas | 19:35
For sure. Yeah. Definitely a coach. And even just like video footage. I think those two things are very helpful. But it is interesting starting out because, you know, I feel like I've got to pick apart from what I'm learning, what I want to keep, what style, what's not, you know, and trying to like put all these things together is yeah, very difficult.
Yeah.
Michael | 20:05
Yeah. Yeah. And what else have you done? Do you do any, do you skateboard? Do you do anything else? No.
Silas | 20:12
I've Surfing skated a little bit. But I think it would be debatable on whether or not that's helpful. I'm practicing pop -up on dry land. That's really nice because it can always get better. And that video that got a lot of views, a lot of people thought I was switching, I was Surfing switch.
Yeah. So they're like, he's just like messing around and like serving switch. And I was like, no. And they're like, maybe you're a goofy footer.
So I haven't tried Surfing goofy ever, but I think I might give it a go just because enough people were like, kind of like, yeah, said that about that video. So maybe I'll give it a go because I can't even say that I'm not goofy because I haven't tried it, you know, I just naturally was regular. And I never even thought to like give goofy a chance, you know, yeah.
Michael | 21:11
It certainly wouldn't do any harm learning how to do it. No. Which way do you skate?
Silas | 21:18
I skate Mongo.
Michael | 21:21
No, but which foot forward?
Silas | 21:23
Left.
Michael | 21:23
Foot. Left foot forward, okay. And if you were to kick a football or soccer ball, which foot would you use? Right foot. You're probably a natural footer then.
Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I think when people first start Surfing, you have a, people sometimes it's called the poo stance.
And it's a more sort of, it's a more balanced, safe feeling position. Yeah.
And then once your balance and your comfort levels improve in the water, you sort of more, you gradually, your body relaxes and things sort of fall into place and you'd sort of develop your own style. There's a lot of reasons why that happens.
Silas | 22:06
I find that that's actually one of the things I've struggled with the most is my compression and getting down low. And I understand that's a problem that I have and I need to work on, but I still struggle like every time I get in the water to compress properly. Because I feel like I'm like all the way down, like super compressed.
And then I see video footage and I'm like, my knees are like a little bit bent. Like it's super difficult for some reason. And maybe it is like a safety thing or I don't know, but it's been hard for me to like, kind of like condition myself to compress.
Michael | 22:54
Yeah, what, I mean, from a technical coach's perspective, yeah, you're very, you don't bend at the hips, you bend at the knees a lot. So there's definitely some work to be done in that regards.
I mean, gosh, I mean, send an email to someone like Brad Gerlach. He does a program called Wave Key, which is all about refining your body position and technique on dry land. And ideally it's done in front of a mirror so that you're quite, how does my body feel? What does it look like? Those two things, as you know, when you watch yourself Surfing, they're so far apart. I thought I was doing this, but it looks like this and it's heartbreaking.
Yeah, It will be for a long time.
Silas | 23:33
Yeah, it is.
Michael | 23:36
Yeah. But if you start training in front of a mirror, then the way your body feels and the way it looks, those two things start to line, they start to line up more.
Yeah, that's interesting. And it increases your body awareness. It works on very ancient neurological things.
Like when we learn to walk, we actually learn by watching other people walk. It's called mirror neurons.
Silas | 24:01
Okay, yeah.
Michael | 24:01
So dry land training does work. Yeah, okay. Things like practicing skateboarding, using Surfing techniques whilst, it gets made fun of a lot and can look a little ridiculous. It does work. Do you know what I mean? Because not only are you working on those positions in front of a mirror, but then you're moving around on an uneven surface like a skateboard. Obviously it's not the same as Surfing, but you can kind of mimic surfing style on a skateboard. A lot of coaches swear by it and that's all they use.
So that's part of the reason why watching footage and training in front of the mirror helps a lot, because it just increases your body awareness so that you know, like if you were eyeing a barrel and you know it's X amount of size, then you know your body has to compress down and become that size in order to get into it. But if there's a mismatch and you're standing taller than you think you are to fit in the barrel, then the lips is gonna hit you in the head and you might not click as to why that happened. Little things like that can make a massive difference.
I mean, if I had my time all over again to sort of really attack Surfing, I would have spent more time just working on dry land stuff like body awareness, balance, vision.
Silas | 25:21
Slack line, Slack line's good. I like slack line. Slack line?
Yeah, slack line's nice. I thought because I could ride a surfboard that slack line should be no problem, you know? Because it seems like maybe simpler balancing on a Slack line because it's just there and you just walk on it. And I got on there and I was so frustrated that I couldn't do it. And it took me like a good like two or three weeks of, you know, just every time I walked past it, giving it a go. And the first time that I ever walked, like finished the Slack line was the day I got back from Tahiti. I had Surfing Taupo and I was like, looking at the Slack line, I was like, I can fucking do that shit. And I got on there and I smashed it. It felt pretty good.
Yeah, that's a good one for balance, I think. Yeah.
Michael | 26:11
Yeah, even just simple things like standing on one foot with your eyes closed. Something that sounds easy.
Silas | 26:18
I heard you can't do it.
Michael | 26:21
You might not be able to, but I mean, if Kelly Slater was here and he'd never done that, and he asked him to do it, he'd probably just do it without even, because he's so gifted with his neurological system. It's nothing. You have a vestibular system, which is kind of like a gyroscope in your inner ear. And that tells your brain, am I, is my head level, essentially. It senses movement.
You know, am I moving through space while it's happening? But your brain looks at your vision. Where's the horizon? What am I looking at? Am I moving to help decide whether you're balanced? And all the information coming from your body, your feet, your entire body awareness, that all of those inputs into the brain, am I balanced? It tells your body, are you balanced? The better each one of those things are, the better the combination of signals as well. You see surfers that surf through barrels like chandeliers, they can't see, but they still come out.
So all of a sudden their vision's gone, but they're still balanced because the body is so good with the other sensory inputs. So in training, we can isolate those. For example, standing on one foot with your eyes closed, sort of makes you, forces your brain to go, to only use your vestibular system and your body awareness to, am I balanced? And because we rely on vision so much, most people can't even do that.
Silas | 27:50
Yeah, like when, as soon as the water is in your eyes and you can't see, you just give up almost. It's like, that's it, game over.
Yeah, it's powering through, yeah.
Michael | 28:01
But there's so many things like that if you take a top athlete and get them to do it, they'll just laugh at you. I'm like, this is easy, give me something challenging. But most other people just can't do it.
So there's a big gap between elite athletes and average athletes. And I think, but the thing is, you can isolate those things and train them now. We know so much about the nervous system and athletic development now. And whilst it's dead lifting or doing Olympic lifting is, so, well, it looks so good on social media, right? Do you know what I mean? It's so, I wanna be big and strong and lift weights like that or whatever. But in reality, the pro athletes, they aren't doing much of that. They're actually doing a lot of other stuff and they're naturally gifted in other ways.
So you're actually better off, if you're really serious about becoming a better athlete, you're better off on working things like, on things like balance and body awareness, even the speed at which your eyes move from there to there, for example. Like if I'm looking down, I look what's in front of me, what's happening down there. If your eyes can literally move from looking down the line, see what that wave's doing to right in front of you, twice as fast and then back and then over there than anyone else, you're taking in more information than other Surfing. You're reading the wave on a more detailed level simply because your vision's better. And you make better decisions, time slows down, your body relaxes because you understand your environment more.
I mean, it's things like, even average surfers are doing a lot of big wave breath holding training. Even if they don't have the intention of Surfing big waves, the fact that the brain knows that you're comfortable with being underwater for a certain amount of time, every time you go Surfing from then on, from that training, you're just so much calmer, you're more relaxed because you're not subconsciously scared of drowning as much.
Yeah. Little things like that.
So this, anyway, I could go on and on. It's like.
Silas | 29:55
I've heard it before, like stacking the confidence, you know, like proving to yourself what you can do that's gonna help you out there. Yeah. And just collecting them as many as you can, yeah.
Yeah.
Michael | 30:09
Point is there's so much you can do because obviously with Surfing, you're limited to there being good waves and sunlight and time off work to go Surfing. Yeah. But there's so many other things you can do to get better at surfing, not necessarily directly from a skill perspective, but in terms of increasing the way your body works, your body awareness, your strength. And all those And just getting better at other sports.
Silas | 30:31
Things aren't limited to Surfing either. Exactly.
So it's win? Yes.
Yeah.
Michael | 30:39
You find a lot of athletes, they do a lot of other sports as well. And they're always busy, you know, pro Surfing, and they're at the golf course or they're playing table tennis or they're doing something else. No.
Silas | 30:52
I played a lot of sports. I did ice hockey for like eight years, did soccer, baseball, American football.
Yeah. Yeah. I was always playing sports. That was something I was super lucky to have growing up because I just naturally was fit growing up.
You know, it was never an issue.
Michael | 31:17
Do you still play any?
Silas | 31:19
No. Just Surfing? Just surfing.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, it takes the cake for sure.
Michael | 31:25
Yeah. Once you've got the bug.
Silas | 31:28
It's over. Yeah. I find one of the hardest things with Surfing for me is the people. I just like, I wanna go out there and I don't wanna interact, but I want to be interactive enough to be respectful. And like, you know, like I'm not out there to just like be the silent asshole who's like, you know, like lurking around. I just, I don't, I'm not there for that, you know? And it happens naturally. And when it does, it's great. But most of the time I'm not like going out with the intention of chit -chatting with somebody for 15 minutes while a bunch of waves go by, you know? I'm like, go. And I'm trying to paddle. And especially at a place like Manu where it's just so busy and there's so many people, you gotta be on, you gotta just go for everything and pick your moments and yeah.
Michael | 32:23
Yeah, that's, I think a lot of newbies to Surfing find that culture shock quite strange. Yeah. But it makes sense.
Like, because as a Surfing coach, coaching new beginners, it's one thing you have to deal with a lot because they just sort of, especially if you want to go out and Surfing a crowded lineup and get waves and not be ostracized for it or My advice is always be friendly to everyone, but don't expect them to be friendly back.
Silas | 32:48
Whatever.
Yeah, that's a good way to go about it.
Michael | 33:00
So acknowledge people. You might just give them a nod and they might not even look at you. You can't judge that person on that because they might have been Surfing for 20 years every day and that's their one hour a day where they don't want to talk to anyone. They just want to focus on Surfing. That's their life, that's their art form.
And then when you meet them in the car park, they're the nicest guy ever. But they might, as soon as they put a wetsuit on, so there can be exaggerated mismatches like that in.
Silas | 33:29
Surfing. And I think I've definitely, I don't know. I noticed it in my life as well. There's just some times where I draw negative attention from somebody and it's never out of a place where I intend to do so. It's always kind of like a, just like a weird, like one -off kind of thing. But I've, yeah, I've definitely pissed some people off in the lineup for sure. I had a dude in Kuatunu, he tried to like punch me in the water. And I've never experienced anything like that before. And Tofino, it's mostly beach break, so it's pretty spread out. And there's only a handful of like, you know, good Surfing.
So coming to New Zealand and Surfing my first point break with, you know, 40 people and, you know, at least half of them are really good or like, you know, pretty decent. It was, yeah, super challenging, like facing the fear of Surfing over shallow, you know, rocks and dodging 40 people is a very huge leap from the comfort of the beach break where I come from, because there I knew the beach so good and I'd Surfing it so many times. I could go out and like, you know, like a 12 to 14 foot storm swell by myself and I know I'm gonna be okay. But here it's just like it's a whole different ball game and I kind of did get shocked by it quite a bit. It was almost discouraging, almost. Yeah.
Michael | 35:09
That's almost, Surfing don't want you to be there because waves are a limited resource. However, having said that, if you prove to them that you can be respectful and that you are in it for the right reasons and that you can share waves, that person who was an absolute twat the first few times saw you, it might take a year, literally, of you Surfing with them every day, they're not even looking at you.
And then one day, they'll just, they'll acknowledge you one day and then you might end up being best friends. But it's sort of like, especially the older surfers, because Surfing used to be, gosh, even 10 years ago, the wetsuits weren't even that great. 15 years ago, the wetsuits weren't that great. And there was no forecasting. Do you know what I mean? I don't.
Silas | 36:03
Like forecasting. I don't like forecasting at all. I don't like the cams. I don't like the forecast. Because it's like, if you don't have cams and you don't look at the forecast and you just go look for yourself, even if it's shitty, probably gonna get in the water, opposed to looking on your camera on your phone and being like, it doesn't look perfect. I'm not gonna go. If.
Michael | 36:26
You're seriously about getting better, you'd Surfing every day at all conditions. And some of the best Surfing come from parts of the world where the waves are terrible. Kelly Slater comes from Florida.
Silas | 36:36
There's a kid that I Surfing with in rags. His name's DeMellon. That's his nickname. And we're usually the only two people out when there's a shitty wind swell and nobody else is in the water. And I'll be out by myself and then he'll paddle out or vice versa. And it's funny, because it's usually him.
Like on those shitty days when everybody's like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, it's usually me and him out there. It's pretty nice. I love Surfing shitty swell and then going into work and everybody's like, you surf? I'm like, yeah.
Like how was it? I was like, it's awesome.
Like what do you mean? Like, yeah. And they're like, it's supposed to be bad today.
Like, yeah. Waves are waves, you know? There's work to be done there. There's improvements to be made.
Yeah, always. And I understand that it all comes down to time in the water too. Yes. The more time you spend in the water, the faster you can improve.
So I definitely live by that in my routine and everything, for sure. Even on just like half foot days, borrow a friend's longboard and go and skim.
You know, like, yeah. I was trying to always, because.
Michael | 37:59
Always. You never regret a Surfing.
Yeah. No, you're right. You cannot beat time in the water just.
Silas | 38:07
And I've got a lot of catching up to do too. So it's like, it really, like, I've got that fire under me and yeah.
Michael | 38:14
Yeah. And even if you don't catch any waves, it's still worth it because you, pattern recognition, you're reading the ocean, you're trying to catch waves. You're, that wave did a weird thing.
And then you look, it was because it was this period. And then one day when it's pumping, you might get a little wind chop on the wave and you know how to negotiate it because you've Surfing so much junky conditions and you knew that was coming because you're so familiar with the break and you've seen that wave pop up in that weird place or whatever. And so your time in the water, you cannot.
Silas | 38:44
Substitute. I think that's hard as well though.
Like having the money to be able to travel and to Surfing different places is obviously like kind of like the surfer's dream to just like go to different countries and surf, you know, really nice breaks. But you don't get familiar with one place, you know, like staying in a place for a long time and getting really familiar with just one break.
So it's a lot of like, I feel like always kind of being sort of fluid in that sense of like, you never really know what you're getting kind of, you know, and like being in a new place at a break that you've never served with people who don't know you know. I feel like experiencing that over and over again, it's almost like the first time over and over again.
Michael | 39:41
Yeah. Yeah, you gotta have a home break.
Yeah. Obviously travels amazing and important.
Yeah, Yeah.
Silas | 39:46
Home break. Yeah, that's nice.
Yeah. I like that.
Michael | 39:49
Even if it's a different home break every year. Yeah.
Like, I mean, if I was you, I'd be emailing the Four Seasons in the Maldives saying, hey, do you need a sous chef?
Silas | 40:01
Yeah, to move to French Polynesia so bad.
Michael | 40:01
Yeah. I wanted.
Silas | 40:06
I told the guy on my way out of the country when he stamped my passport, I was like, I need to find a wife. And he's like, you'll find one in there. And he pointed to the waiting room. I was like, all right. Didn't find a wife though. Not yet.
Michael | 40:19
No. You said you wanted Hawaiian though. You gotta go.
Silas | 40:23
Hawaii. I'd settle for French Polynesia.
Yeah, I'd settle for French Polynesia. I think that'd be like I said, it's very loose, professional Surfing marrying a Hawaiian. It's just kind of like, yeah.
Michael | 40:36
Yeah, if you want to reach high, you've got to aim high.
Silas | 40:40
Yeah.
Michael | 40:42
Have you been to Hawaii?
Silas | 40:43
Twice, yeah. So once when I was 12 and that was when I went to Maui. Super beautiful, but pretty touristy and like American kind of modern.
And then Kauai. Kauai, I really loved Kauai. It's called the Garden Island.
Michael | 41:00
Yes, I've been there. Yeah, and.
Silas | 41:01
It's so good. All the jungle and like the localism. And yeah, I really liked it there. It did still have that touch of, you know, tourism for sure, but I found it a lot more enjoyable.
Like easier on the eyes, a little bit more friendly.
Michael | 41:20
Yeah, it's a gym. Yeah.
Yeah. You Surfing there?
Silas | 41:24
Yeah. I did a lesson and then I actually, I did really good on my lesson. And I thought the next day I'd take my, take an eight footer instead of a nine footer. And the swell had picked up as well. And I went back to the same beach and it was like, I didn't even recognize the beach because of how different it was. It had rained.
So all of the debris from the river had flowed into the water. So it changed the color of the water. And the waves were probably like four times bigger than when I was doing my lesson, you know?
So they look huge and I was like, okay, here we go. You know? And I was by myself and I just kind of sent it and I could barely balance on the eight foot. And I was like, what is this?
Like, it's only a foot of difference. Like how could it be that much less stable? Because on the nine foot, it's like a tank. It's like a rock. It's not going anywhere.
Yeah. And then I thought eight footer, surely eight footer, no problem. And I shocked myself. I was like, whoa.
Like, and I didn't catch a single wave that day because I was so uncomfortable and out of my depth, it felt like, and I tried to paddle for a wave, but I couldn't commit to it, you know? I was too scared. And that was at 14. And I think that's probably the hardest thing about Surfing is shutting the fear off. Hey, like you really have to like swallow it in that split moment, you know, when you go to catch a wave and you're looking down the line and then you see it, it's like that make or break moment.
Like you either gotta like take a breath and fucking go for it, or you just gotta, you know, pull out or eat shit or whatever it is. But it's so intense, that moment of just like letting it go and just going for it. It's unreal. And I'm familiar with the sensation from other aspects of my life, but not on that level of intensity. It's such a, yeah.
Michael | 43:27
Yeah, that's a big roadblock to people's development in Surfing is fear, whether they realize it or not. Yeah.
Yeah. It's good awareness though.
Yeah. You would have noticed it on steroids in Tahiti with the clear water and the shallow reef.
Silas | 43:44
Unbelievable to any, because I've only Surfing in like Canada, the water's not super clear. It's like dark blue, you know? And same with here in New Zealand, like you do get some clear days, especially on the East coast, but like on the West coast, usually it's pretty murky.
Yeah. And Tahiti, but Tahiti is like another level.
Like you're on the wave and you can't tell the middle of the wave from the bottom of the wave because it's so glassy see -through. And it's just like, yeah. Insane. And I think that trip was very substantial for me. It was very like a pivotal point for me because it was like, I can go and I can Surfing a wave like that. And I really did a lot better than I thought I would.
You know, like I took myself by surprise and I was just like, I just couldn't even believe it. It was like, yeah.
Yeah.
Michael | 44:45
So how did you overcome? How do you deal with fear?
Silas | 44:55
I think it's kind of similar to like instead of feeling like you're not where you're supposed to be or like you want to be somewhere, but you're not there yet. And instead of appreciating how far you've come to get where you are now, you're worried about the next thing. I kind of feel like it's similar to that.
Like every wave that I ever didn't take because I was scared, I regretted it. And it's like, it's such an in the moment thing, but to like be present enough to remind yourself that you can't listen to the fear is, I'd say is yeah, as difficult as staying in the present and not appreciating what you have and where you've come from opposed to where you want to be.
Michael | 45:51
Yeah. Yeah. It's essentially what it is being in the present moment.
Yeah. Because even if you were thinking half a second into the future while you're paddling into a wave, yeah, it's taking you away from.
Silas | 46:04
Every time like I go to do my pop -up and I'm already thinking about, you know, my first maneuver, I just lose it. It's, you gotta be just like, yeah, you've really gotta. And I think I've experienced moments in the kitchen where I'm on, like I'm in the zone, I'm in my flow state. It's happened like twice, you know, like it's, and I always try and like in those kinds of moments, like what was different? What did I have for breakfast that day?
You know, like what led to that? And it's an interesting dynamic in the kitchen as well, because you can enter the flow state as a team and not just in the kitchen, but, you know, in general.
So it's, yeah, it's a very interesting thing because it's attainable and there is a way to get there, but going through the trial and error of figuring out how to like always be there is super challenging and super frustrating because you know you can do it, but a lot of the time you just can't. Like that's what it feels like to me. It's It.
Michael | 47:10
Elusive. Yeah. Is. There's been some good books written on it though.
Like the Rise of Superman, great book. Actually, Stephen Kotler has written a couple of books. His most recent one is called Nah Country where he teaches himself and a bunch of older people, 50 plus I think, skiers to start park skiing.
Silas | 47:34
Just like normal skiers? Who's.
Michael | 47:37
Never skied a park and has never slid a rail or anything. Okay. And he teaches them how to do it. Cool. He taught himself how to do it. Everyone said, no, you're too old to learn how to park ski. What are you talking about? You break a hip. And he did that and he threw just, because you enter the flow state when you're being challenged enough to not be boring, but not so much that where you're gonna hurt yourself or you fail. It's that sweet spot. I think he says it's between three and 4%.
Yeah. Challenge, like it has to be a little bit harder than yesterday, but not so hard that you're just gonna fail or hurt yourself.
Silas | 48:17
And I feel like Surfing is all that, you know? Yeah. For.
Michael | 48:24
Sure, because even if you get the same waves every day, you can still surf deeper or you can always, yeah, it's like the wave is a Canva for whatever you wanna do on it, whether it's long board or short board or whatever. So yeah, that's a good awareness too, flow state stuff. There's plenty of reading to be done on that too. There's other things. He even started an institute, I forget what it's called, where they really studied flow states. And I think there's a list of 12 things that need to happen in order for you to increase the chances of entering flow state.
Silas | 49:02
Yeah, there's actually a girl in Raglan, I can't remember her name or the name of her company, but she does that. She does like flow state training, whatever that would entail.
Yeah, and immediately I just went to individualism, like she's doing one -on -ones with people. And I kind of said something that made it obvious that I'd made an assumption. And she was like no, like I do whole teams of people, like kitchens, she gave off a little list of environments that you would do that in. And it's quite interesting. Yeah.
Michael | 49:44
It's really fascinating, the flow state science. Yeah, I took a deep dive years ago and I learned a lot.
Yeah, I mean, that's key if you wanna... In Surfing, it usually sort of, it often just happens.
Silas | 49:58
Automatically. Yeah, naturally. But I think you definitely tell when it doesn't day. That day that I was out was probably the worst Surfing that I had in a really long time. And it was super big swell, a video that blew up. It was like, I was on the inside that wave that I caught. The ones out back were like twice the size and like super heavy. And there was so many like just balls in the air.
Like crazy, like good Surfing out there on their guns. I was on my little 5 '10 because my step up's out of commission. And I had like four hours sleep. I was like a little bit hungover, I think. And I just, my head was not there at all. It was a really tough day in the water for me.
And then it blew up for like no reason. And I was like, why?
Like why that day? You know?
Yeah, it's kind of funny. Yeah, ironic a little bit.
Michael | 50:58
Life is mysterious. Yeah. Especially Surfing.
So how long are you in Raglan for?
Silas | 51:07
I leave on the 7th of January, going down to the South Island. Yeah. I'm probably gonna spend most of my time in Dunedin and the Catlins.
Michael | 51:18
Yeah. Have you got a job down there? Not.
Silas | 51:20
Yet. Yeah, just winging it.
Yeah. I love it.
Yeah. And I don't even have like a financial cushion to wing it but I'm just gonna wing it anyways.
You know, like I Yeah.
Michael | 51:28
Just - You're young and single, who cares?
Silas | 51:31
But not even like that. I just, opposed to like trying to force things, I really like making decisions and seeing how my environment responds to me. Because like I said, when we were calling earlier, I just feel like sometimes you feel a lot of resistance when you make a decision or like, maybe some signs that it's not a good idea. And sometimes you make a decision and everything just kind of clicks into place, almost like a domino effect, like the shuffling of the cards, you know? And yeah, I'm just kind of following that.
Michael | 52:14
And - Awesome, I think you can do good, man. You can do fine. Hope so.
Silas | 52:17
Yeah. But if I don't, it's okay.
You know, I'm just here for it. Yeah. Good or the bad.
Yeah.
Michael | 52:23
Awesome. Tell us your Instagram handle.
Silas | 52:27
It is surfandipitous.
Michael | 52:30
Can you spell that?
Silas | 52:31
S -U -R -F -E -N -D -I -P -I -T -O -U -S. Yeah.
Michael | 52:40
I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
Silas | 52:42
Awesome. Yeah, I like it. It's like serendipity.
Yeah. It's a good thing. Surfing and surfing, I figured they go pretty good together. That's how I came up with the handle, yeah. Awesome.
Michael | 52:55
I love it. And I urge everyone to give you a follow and follow your journey. And I think there's a lot of my listeners will be interested to see what's possible. And, you know, I think we'll all be able to learn something by following.
Silas | 53:14
Nice. Yeah. I'm super excited. And thank you. Sweet. I appreciate.
Michael | 53:18
It. Sweet. Thanks for coming by. Yeah.
105 Dr. Tim Brown + Taylor Knox + Michael Rintala - Surfing Longevity
Dec 19, 2024
Surfing longevity tips from 3 experienced legends of the surf world;
104 Candice Land - Exercise Physiologist for WSL and "The Female Surfer"
Oct 03, 2024
In this episode, we chat with Candice Land, exercise physiologist for the World Surf League and founder of The Female Surfer. Candice has an extensive background in exercise physiology, human performance, with over 20 years of experience. She shares her journey from sports psychology to exercise science, and how her athletic background—ranging from martial arts to rowing—shaped her approach to surfing, which she discovered in her mid-20s.
Candice delves into the unique challenges female surfers face and emphasizes the importance of core stability, movement efficiency, and understanding one’s physiology. We explore her methodology for training female surfers, including her Pillar System program, which focuses on core, upper body, and lower body development to enhance surfing performance.
She also discusses how female athletes can better connect with their bodies by recognizing the influence of hormonal cycles and lifespan changes on their training. Whether you're a beginner or an advanced surfer, Candice offers invaluable insights into surf-specific conditioning, injury prevention, and maximizing athletic potential.
Key Topics:
Candice's path to surf training and exercise physiology
How athletic backgrounds influence learning in surfing
The Pillar System: core stability, upper, and lower body development for female surfers
The importance of understanding hormonal cycles in training
Training strategies for female athletes to enhance movement efficiency and reduce injury
Resources:
Visit The Female Surfer for more information on Candice’s programs and resources for female surfers.
Sponsor for this episode is Flatrock Wetsuits, head to https://flatrockwetsuits.com.au and use code MASTER15 at checkout for 15% off.
Transcript:
Michael Frampton
So now I'm here. Oh, cool. So what, by way of intro, could you tell us a little bit of your background and what you're currently doing?
candice land
Sure. So I'll flip it around and start with the end first. I'm currently managing female surfer, which is something I created to ensure.
for that female athletes and female surface have the toolkit that they need to perform at their best. So that's currently what I'm doing.
But I've been in the world of human performance for about 20 years now. So I've been in exercise, which seems crazy, actually.
It seems like I just graduated from uni yesterday. But yeah, I've been in exercise physiologists now for nearly 20 years.
So delving into the world of human performance and how we can make that better.
Michael Frampton
Oh, wow. So did you dive straight into that world as soon as you left school?
candice
Fun fact, I actually was initially enrolled in sport psychology. I was always an athlete at school, so I always had that kind of interest.
I don't understand how we're supposed to even know what we want to do when we finish high school. For some reason I didn't get into sport psychology, but I'm so grateful that I didn't.
I ended up getting into sport and exercise science with a good friend of mine. She went on to physiotherapy and I stayed on as an exercise physiologist.
And I'm one of those lucky people that this is my passion and this is what I love. So from the from the get-go, this is what I've been, I guess, I feel pulled to do.
So I just stayed an exercise physiologist that whole time.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, awesome. When did surfing come into the picture?
candice
Late. I played a lot of sports growing up but living in the tropics, obviously we've got the Great Barrier Reef.
So I wasn't exposed to surfing until I lived in Ireland when I was about 25. So that's when I got exposed to surfing because when the weather was, I said to myself when the is good, I don't want to be in a capital city.
want to be out enjoying this, this beautiful country and I ended up in a small fishing village. in can carry and was just like, wow, the firstly, the beaches are stunning.
And secondly, I wanted to do something really random. So I was like, I'd love to just learn how to surf over here.
And then I ended up living with the lads that ran the surf school. So I just got to tag along with them.
Michael Frampton
So at 25, that's not very late.
candice
Yeah, that was only five years ago. No, it was a while ago. Longer than I would like to mention.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. What was your what was your main sport before surfing came into play?
candice
Or before I went travelling overseas, I was big into martial arts that actually represented Australia and take one dough.
So that was my passion. But prior to that, I was competing in rowing and my bike riding, played touch-fleeing at ball.
name it, I did it. Yeah, so a bit of an all-rounder when it comes to sport.
Michael Frampton
Do you think you're a high-level athletic background helped you to learn surfing faster than others?
candice
No. I think surfing is really unique as a sport. In some ways, yes, I think martial arts are still trained to this day and it really helps my surfing.
It really helps with focus and being able to stay calm in the water as well and it also helps me to feel more connected on the board as well.
There's a lot of breath work and stuff that goes in with take window that I think really helps with that core connection.
So but I feel like surfing is such a unique sport because nothing is ever the same and you don't surf how you look.
It's such an internal representation on the brain. So you know when you surf and you think you surf a particular way but then you see a video of yourself and you're like well that's not how surfing feels to me.
It's such the way the brain puts it all together. It's so reliant on the vestibular system and the proprioceptive system that it's a very internal visual thing.
So for me surfing, I would say I'm an intermediate to advanced intermediate surfer, but I wouldn't say that I'm epic at it and it's something I'll have to spend my whole lifetime learning.
So it's been the hardest sport for me to do well.
Michael Frampton
Mm, it is hard. I call this later once said that surfing is a martial art.
candice
Interesting perspective.
Michael Frampton
Mm, I think, and especially, I mean, he's a high level. I think you also hear high level martial artists saying that when you get to a certain level, it's kind of like you're dancing with danger, with your opponent.
And I think that's why I call it described it like that because essentially the best surfers in the world, they surf closest to the.
Did you do video analysis in the martial arts world as well and was it a similar thing?
candice
No, interestingly my martial arts felt like the way that it looked. I don't know if it's because it's in a more closed environment, the floor surface is always the same, you better, you kind of can orientate yourself better in space because the world around you isn't shifting, the horizon's that enabled me to have a more realistic representation of where my body was in space.
So when I did the martial arts I knew and I was executing a move and also it's so easy to repeat it in the same environment.
It's such a repetitive thing, so you get to really in the same environment really hone in and focus your technique so you get used to the sensation of feeling that it is, whereas unless you're like it.
a surf athlete that gets to experience or surf very consistent waves, 15 20 hours a week, of don't get that opportunity for repetition.
So don't know whether those things kind of play into it, where it enabled me to have more movement accuracy.
So it felt like the way that it looked, I'm not sure.
Michael Frampton (michaeljframpton@gmail.com)
Yeah, I think that's got a lot to do with it for sure, because you know you used to be into surfing and maybe if you're lucky two minutes of that is actually surfing a wave.
candice
Yeah, time on the wave, that's right.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, I think, I've had a lot of footage of me taking through coaching sessions and stuff.
And I think anyone who's seen themselves surf will relate to the fact that it looks completely different to how it felt.
And even the pros, I was talking about, I remember Matt Greeks mentioning that Mick Fanning often found that in Taylor Knox as well.
and they said they often found that sometimes the footage they watched that looked the most extreme like had the most spray and looked like they were doing the biggest turn was the wave that actually felt the smoothest.
candice
Yes.
Michael Frampton
Not necessarily the most sort of stops that where you think there might be more spray.
candice
Yes, that doesn't surprise me one bit when you understand biomechanics and human movement and the design of the human body and how we're designed for variability movement and when designed for efficiency and movement that's what the human body is designed for.
So when you hear comments like that, that makes perfect sense to me.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Do you think that part of the reason that we sort of that mismatch in internal and visual representation?
Do you think that's part of fear as we sort of we sort of crouch down and we feel safer when we're surfing we end up in a bit of a poo stance.
candice
This is really interesting because this is bringing up a conversation that I had with one of the surf coaches from surfing Australia very recently and we were talking about these sorts of things like what we're talking about in the context of stability and courseability and how underestimated it is in surf training and surf conditioning and and what is the actual purpose of surf conditioning and what should it be involving and all those sorts of things and movement is a communication mode in the body right so movement tells the brain lots of different things but it works the other way around as well so that your cognitive processes can very much influence your movement so for example for me I know when I feel uncertain, unstable, I'm in a new environment the way
It feels a little bit different on a board that's a little bit funky. don't think I've got the right board for the conditions.
My surfing style, I'll compress far more because there is a lack of trust through the nervous system based on those parameters.
So I do think that fear can definitely, it has to be able to have that sort of influence because it's all, it's like this cyclical communication because the brain is always trying to figure out what is the best movement option.
The main priority of the brain is to keep you safe. So in that time, if you're feeling fearful, there will be a biomechanical and physiological adaptation to that because it's number one priority.
Michael Frampton
And that's happening where you're aware of the fear or not.
candice
Exactly. Yeah. It's a very perceptual thing. Surfing is very much a sensory based sport. You don't have a lot of time to think on a wave.
And the brain is picking up a lot of information and we manage. a lot through proprioception and the vestibular system.
with the visual system and more with those two elements of nervous system control. So, it's so cool how you need to do this as a Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So, what we're looking at, the discussion you were having with this person, you mentioned just to start of that bit.
Any conclusions or?
candice
Yeah, we're both think believers in creating a more efficient athlete. I'm a big believer in the fact that we have more available to us than we realize.
If we just look at emotions or maybe like a... framework issue like this, the lethal alignment or something along those lines, there's factors that can play into how efficient we are as athletes.
we're so, I'm generalising by saying we, but I'm concerned that as a culture, now we're so motivated to just kind of go hardcore and to go straight into strength and conditioning and to look at strength and to look at load and to look at high performance training and to do all those sort of things without understanding or realising what we've already got available to us.
And when you look at the best surfers or if I'm at a contest and I see a surfer that's completely on fire, it comes down to how efficient they are with movement because movement efficiency allows them to collect energy to transfer it into something else and to turn it into power.
So it's the timing on the wave, it's the smoothness and the way that they can draw down into their turns to collect energy and then turn that into something else and explode out their spins.
whatever it might be. So we're both big believers in that side of things. Yes, go to load. Yes, do all those things.
Absolutely. We have to have, you know, strong athletes, but it's part of the spectrum of training so that you're not missing out on everything that you've got available to you over here.
That's that's our approach.
Michael Frampton
Hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. And I give you a short story that kind of I think exemplifies that I was working with a very high level athlete a few years ago, rugby athlete.
And at the time, I'd just done three DNS courses and I was heavily into DNS stuff. And the first time I had him in the gym, I just wanted to watch and see what he could do, what he was doing already.
And he was deadlifting about 120 kilos. Um, and then all we did was some DNS based tweaks to the way that he was holding himself.
And it's because he was such a high level athlete. just picked it up straight away. He's like, all of sudden could organize his body in a new way.
And then I like, okay, well, let's try deadlift with those positions in mind. And then he went, he literally went from 120 kilos up to 160.
And I was like, okay, we've got to stop now because you've never lifted that much. He's saying it's, he's saying it's easy, but no, we've got to, we've got to stop.
So just by organizing his skeletal system in a more efficient position based on the DNS stuff, his strength went up.
So I think strength actually has a lot to do, there's more to do with efficiency, really.
candice
Oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. And it's got to do with the eccentric phase before the concentric phase. So how you set up a movement is really important.
And that's where movement efficiency comes in, because the way if you, if you break it back down all the way back to human evolution, it always comes down to survival.
So for humans, the way that our bodies evolved, like I said before, was a to be able to find food.
in lots of different environments, so we have this body that's designed to be able to do all sorts of varieties of movement, jump, run, spin, swim, you name it.
So we can find food in all sorts of different environments. The other thing that we got designed into our framework and into our physiology was to be efficient.
So that to me is what we're designed to actually be efficient, that's the way our whole body was designed to work.
And so that comes down to how do you load into the body and how do you eccentrically and how do you collect energy within the body.
Because if there is a breakdown in that, it's too calorie expensive. So the movement is costing you more than it should.
And you can see that you can see people are strong and they can muscle their way through movement.
Michael Frampton
Great. what's the cost of that? Hmm. I'm going to ask you, so I love the sort of evolutionary biologist sort of background to what you just said there.
It leads me to ask you the question is, because that makes me think of sort of the hunter-gatherer world, and whereas the men typically were the ones who are running, jumping, climbing, doing a lot of the heavy lifting per se, so it makes complete sense to train a male athlete like that.
But is the same true for female athletes? Yeah.
candice
is. We have a dual-function pelvis, so our pelvis evolved to be wider, because the pelvis for a man is just going to enable you to be bipedal, walk, run.
For a female, we had to be bipedal, but then we also had to carry it in both child. So the shape of our pelvis is different.
The other thing that's different is the shape of the actual bony structures around the shoulder girdle. So it tends to be a shallower joint.
And there's some differences around muscle fibers and things like that. But evolutionary was still designed to do those two things as a species, yep.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So when it comes to training the female athlete, how do those differences change what you do?
candice
I'm a big believer in pelvic alignment and pelvic stability. I have a DNS background as well, I've done a few of the DNS training.
So my big believer in in Trunksibility and Causability functional Causability in terms of making an athlete more efficient and being able to transfer load for women I feel that because we can't rely on fast-pooch muscle fibers and big muscle mass necessarily We can train and develop those things to an extent and I feel that that's an area that female athletes can really encapsulate disability to transfer loads so that they work really efficiently mechanically and they connect all the dots in their body
That's our world where we can really capitalize on the power that's available to us. So I will try incorporate that in a big key and component to that for women is the pelvis.
To me, the pelvis is like a keystone joint. Like if you look at, did you want to do any of the footwork stuff with the DNS community with Marco Rintala and his online stuff?
Michael Frampton
A little bit. I've also looked at the foot through other modalities, yeah.
candice
You know how it's like a bridge, right? And you've got the keystone in the bridge and how well that keystone works determines whether the bridge stays up or whether it collapses.
I consider the pelvis also one of the keystone joints in the body. If it gets stuck in a certain position or if it's destabilizing before it needs to, if it gets stuck in what we call like a swing phase of gait instead of being able to be stable and handle stance and single leg load, it interrupts the whole mechanics of the body.
It can drive you into the neck pain. It can drive you into shoulder pain. And so for women where we have this wider pelvis and we have this q-angle where the knees come in a little bit, that to me is an area that we really need to focus on with female athletes as a potential powerhouse and in reducing low limb injuries.
So I will look into that as well. But that's first and foremost before I will even go into like shoulders and things like that.
For me, it's about again making female athletes more efficient and how do we protect the female athlete, how do we protect the female body and how do we make it more robust and more adaptable?
How do we power up this body? So those are the two things that I would tend to look at initially.
Does that make sense? Definitely.
Michael Frampton
That's essentially, that's very much DNS thinking as well, just in general. Do you find that the female athletes are actually more open to diving into some of them
more subtleties of DNS than the male athletes just wanted they just want to do some deadlifts and do what they do on TV.
candice
I think not hard to say I've got male athletes that I've worked with over like oh it's so nearly okay now in the surfing scene I see them at the contest and they come and say hi I'm a catch up and see how their bodies are going and and you've always got to get that athlete buying the athlete buying is the results and the change that they get so if you can if you can get that regardless of gender if you can get that with an athlete then they're more inclined to understand the value and benefit of that form of exercise are women more open-minded to it I would say that it depends on their background of training I've had and also the influence of the coach I've actually had instances where the coach hasn't allowed
the athlete to do anything outside of strength training because this is the Olympic model or this is the high performance model.
So this is what we're doing. I'm concerned about the rigidity that's coming into the surf training model. But then you've got role models like you've got kind of role models in the sport that are still doing their own thing and still getting really good results with that.
So I think that helps as well. But if they're more ever-minded to it or not, I couldn't say whether women are lot.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's a shame that there's so many studies out there saying that how bad heavy weightlifting is not just for athletes like surfers, but for almost anyone really.
candice
Yeah, I think there's a time and a place. There's been a lot of research to show the benefits of low training, and I think for female athletes-
It's really important because, especially as we change across the lifespan, know, we get to this point where estrogen isn't such a dominant hormone anymore, and estrogen has a really protective effect on muscular tissue, so we'll lose muscle mass quite quickly.
And so that has a ricochet effect through the body in terms of injury as an older athlete and in terms of just being able to do the sport the way that you've always done it.
So strength training I think has a little bit more, not a little bit more, I just think it's important, an important ingredient for female athletes to consider, but I think it's also important for surf athletes to understand their own body and to have the ability to work with what works well for them, rather than having to fit a rigid framework.
And you need a versatile practitioner and approach to be able to understand that spectrum and for it to be a very athlete-centered approach to training.
Michael Frampton
So you mentioned DNS?
candice
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
you still use a lot of that?
candice
Heaps. I still use a lot of it. I find it as a reorganization tool in terms of faulty movement patterns.
Yes. It was embedded so early into our central nervous system from a developmental perspective. You couldn't learn a movement pattern until you stabilized in a particular way.
the body had to get stabilization first before it could develop the next motor pattern as you know. So if we can draw back to that organization, you still see the body able to let go and come back to improving motor patterns.
So I find it really good at locking things. So even and creating change in a very short amount of time.
So when I'm working at events, I'll use that as a modality. I use quite a lot of different modalities, but I will still use DNS principles.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So what are some of the other courses that you've done over the years and in particular, which ones had the biggest influence on what you do now?
candice
I first, you know, I am absolutely fascinated by the nervous system. I first became exposed to the nervous system when I was doing my post-grad in occupational therapy of all things.
And I delve heavily into the nervous system from a developmental perspective and dealing with pediatric health, then also dealing with things like stroke recovery.
that to me, I couldn't understand why that was a game changer for me. It totally changed the way that I
a sore movement, the muscles are the end point of the story. So it changed the way that I assessed and it changed the way that I prescribed movement.
So I've been interested in that and then through pediatrics I've also been interested in the developmental stages of movement and how that all kind of gets integrated and where it can go wrong as adults, what can we kind of pull back through.
So those two things. I've done additional training around like integrated neurology stuff. fascinated with the vestibular system so I'm diving into that a bit right now.
But then I also don't want to pull too far away from strength and conditioning side of things as well.
So because I have to spend the spectrum of injury prevention and injury recovery into managing complex injuries and complex movement patterns into
to all the way into high performance training. And that's just in the realm of muscle skeletal, that's not even including everything else that I need influence from a physiological perspective.
So we just look at that. So I wanna make sure that I feel that spectrum. So some of my training has also included things like kettlebell training courses and additional strength training courses just to know that I can still communicate with that audience and I can still bridge that and then I bring it all.
So I'll still, I'll manipulate some of these exercises. I stated people, right, you're at the point now where we're going to go to the gym.
I'm gonna give you your strength training program but it's gonna be your nerdy strength training program. Okay, so that I can bring in some of those postural elements and some of the DNS stuff and some of the pelvic restoration stuff into your strength based.
um Sometimes I try to remember the specific names of courses that I can't Yep.
Michael Frampton
I like that approach and I agree I didn't mean to sound anti-strength training before it's just I think you see a lot of athletes just overdo the deadlift, the bench press and the squat and you can see and then they just end up getting big without necessarily getting functionally strong.
candice
Um I think I can understand and see how that holds athletes together in bigger more powerful surf where they have to be working against some pretty big external forces.
Um but I do also think that that we don't operate that but when not I think sometimes of load as sound so that when we're under load from a nervous system perspective if we think about it in
In terms of sound, it's very high volume, very noisy. So you're under this load, you've got weight on your body, your brain knows where everything is in space, the volume is being turned up, and it's a noisy, loud environment.
If you think about how often we're in that context, in surfing, when is that? When are we getting the most input and most noise into our body from a movement perspective?
Michael Frampton
I would say in heavy surf or wipe out.
candice
Yeah, yeah. If we're dealing with a wave that wants to compress us, and we have to kind of resist against that, if it's lot of water moving, and we really have to load into that bottom turn to really be able to manage that power and control that power, it would be when we go to executed turn, where the timing is, or if we need to, again, load back into a bottom turn to collect energy.
But then what's happening in between that movement? Unless it's on a big, heavy, powerful moving.
Michael Frampton
wave, the volume turns down.
candice
Yeah. We need to be able to have strategies that enable us to work on the high volume situations and low volume situations and then be able to dial the volume up and the volume down.
Yes. think we're training on the high volume situations. How adaptable does that make you as an athlete in the real world?
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, I guess I kind of think of high level top to bottom surfing is kind of jumping and landing based really.
candice
On and off. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
There's a nice smoothness.
candice
It's like saying thing with walking. You know, walking is meant to be so efficient that it costs you very little energy.
But we're not doing that. We're not doing that otherwise, we? But if I, you know, faulty movement patterns I see just in walking, you know, and that bipedal gate, that opposite arm to opposite leg situation is prevalent in so many other activities that we do in the real world.
world and I think you can squat this and you can bench press this, that's awesome but you can't get this, you're not stable on a single leg.
So we kind of need to look at this as well.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and you mentioned neurological side of things a lot there as well. And I certainly, the type of training that I've done personally that affected my surfing the most was when I was doing a lot of DNS.
I was learning it and working with clients as well as seeing someone one on one at least once a week.
And I was doing a lot of vestibular and ocular training at the same time. And I actually got to the point where I was able to go, I went to Fiji on a surf trip and I was really nervous because I get seasick and a bath.
But I think because I've been doing so much vestibular and in training. I just didn't get seasick.
candice
That's awesome. Got to keep that up because that deteriorates as we age. And women, for women that change, fluctuates in a single cycle.
So women will have changes in their particular capacities within a single cycle. So all of those things kind of come into play.
So then knowing that then, does that shift and change how you would develop your own training program?
Michael Frampton
I would think so. You'd want to be cycling in time with the moon, personally.
candice
But also not knowing how the DNS work that you did and the best tibular ocular work that you did, how that enhanced your performance.
Would you be more inclined to go to the gym and focus on strength? Or would you be more inclined to do that training that you did prior to Fiji?
I'd do a mixture of both. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Definitely.
candice
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
in just, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
candice
And I think that's fun. I think that makes it fun. I think if you can work across the whole spectrum, it makes it makes training a journey, not just a routine.
Michael Frampton
Definitely. I mean, I challenge anyone out there to stand on one leg with your eyes closed. That's not as easy as you think.
candice
I'm doing it this morning. I was like, okay, we need to do some work on this.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's hard. And then try and do it with your eyes closed and your head moving. It's interesting because I've had the pleasure of working with some high level athletes.
that's a test I'd always do. And some of the best athletes, they're just like, oh yeah, they'll just stand on one leg and with their eyes closed and just do it.
Even though they've never trained to do it, they're just naturally gifted. They've been gifted with a great VISTA. through their genetics or their background or whatever.
candice
Yeah. And I think if you took a surfer and you did it on a flat surface, they would manage differently on an surface.
Michael Frampton
Mmm.
candice
The surfer is always on a surface that's moving.
Michael Frampton
Don't you think the vestibular system would be pretty quick to learn that though, like if it's a high level.
candice
it's adaptable. Yeah, if it's adaptable. And there's things that kind of play into that.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Mmm. think it also, like someone who's got an incredible vestibular system, I mean, you look at a surfer going through a barrel section with lots of chandeliers with visions gone.
And they just come through. It doesn't seem to bother them.
candice
And the areas are known where they are in space to be able to land that exactly where they need to be landing that to then.
to then going to another turn straight away. I love seeing that. Are you doing much sort of isolated vestibular work with any athletes?
Yes and no. I want to upskill in that area before I do whole people work in that area because I do think it's high risk.
So I tend to baseline set it up through the highest cervical area and then do some eye tracking training and then also eyes closed eyes open that sort of thing.
I think it's a really unique skill set.
Michael Frampton
Yeah there's also ways to sort of you don't necessarily have to isolate it you can add in fun little stuff so they don't even realize they're doing it sort of thing.
Very true yeah like strobe. Strobed glasses are a great way to do that or get them to blink blink slowly or yes Yeah, Yeah, just jump into I don't know if you have discovered Z health yet, but they've got heaps of cool stuff on that website You're giving me so many cool things today So that's dr.
He's a chiropractor neurologist guy who oh man a years ago. He's decided to start training personal trainers in neurology And in particular, you know the vestibular and ocular system.
So he's got a lot of really he starts base level Um, so it's heaps of free videos on his website as well, and he's got a course on vestibular training and vision training as well Yeah, awesome.
candice
Yeah a bit in terms of Yeah and the concussion side of things and Yes It's it's good that It's developing as a treatment like that, my dilating.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And for prevention as well, like I know if you can cast without seeing it coming especially, your concussion is worse, but it also actually narrows your peripheral vision post-compassion, which makes you more susceptible to another concussion because your center vision, essentially you lose part of your peripheral vision.
So if training your peripheral vision, to rehab your peripheral vision and even improve it can help as well. They talk about that on Z-Health a lot as well.
friend of mine who did the Z-Health stuff, he's now into cognitive training as well. So it's really interesting, man, and you should have a look at his website too, SomaNPT.
got an app that's got all things like Strobe, so Stroop tests and visual reaction, audio reaction, yes. Yes, no, go, no, no, go, sort of drills on that app, really fascinating stuff.
He's working with some of the football teams in Europe and the Formula One drivers in Europe with all that sort of stuff.
Yeah, awesome.
candice
All that responsiveness and that decision making that you don't even have time to make that decision making, know, that lightning stuff that you need.
Michael Frampton
Hmm. And what's really fascinating about that, he's doing lot of studies with universities at the moment too, is they'll test VO2 max and the athlete that won't change any of their physical training, but they start adding in the cognitive training whilst they might just be on the bike or a treadmill doing their standard cardio training, but they'll add in the cognitive stuff so they might be doing stroke tests or visual reaction tests, and they're seeing an increase in their VO2.
Simply because the prefrontal cortex is dealing with the whole thing about her So it's fascinating Really cool. Yeah, really cool.
candice
You've added to my diving list.
Michael Frampton
Oh There's so much out there, right?
candice
Yeah, I spent all morning reading articles. I'm like oh Brain come on brain.
Michael Frampton
Keep going So what's so let's let's speak to this say the average The average recreational surfer that might be listening now the say the female one and the female one in particular what considerations should they be making to their training and In recommendations like what should they be doing and not doing for the average athlete?
candice
Yes, so for the average athlete I think I I think it's a female sometimes the hardest thing is that we don't necessarily know what we're dealing with we haven't had a Lot of time to really understand
our own biology and physiology, and how to manipulate that in the world of exercise, prescription that suits us the best.
We've kind of just been basing it off research, as you know, that's been predominantly done on men. So there's a lot of mistruth and misunderstanding.
So I think it's like the recreational female athlete and leaving the elite female athlete now is in this really cool realm or this really cool time where where we can really begin to understand ourselves.
So it means that you just need to cue in and listen to yourself. You are going to have fluctuations.
You are going to be in state of evidence law. But just clue in and monitor yourself and get in touch with yourself and start to understand your own rhythms, rather than kind of blowing them off as if they're nothing.
So for example, I didn't realize this until I started, you know, tracking my own cycles and getting a good understanding of my own rhythms, why I would turn up to, let's say, cabber.
And it would be two to three foot glassy, sunny day, similar conditions to where I was a week ago and I wouldn't want to go surfing.
Like I would actually be anxious about going surfing and I'd just be like, do you do? Like I'm talk so, I'd be so hard on myself, what you doing?
Why don't you want to get in the water? You've only got this amount of time, get in, go, go, go, go, go.
But inside my body's like, no, I don't want to, I don't want to go. I didn't realise that shift in anxiety was actually a cyclical pattern for me.
So in understanding that, I could prepare myself better for those moments, so that now I don't experience that so much.
But at the time I was able to bring in strategies to help me manage that a lot better. So I think paying attention to your own cycles is really, really important and what you experience and just get your head around who you are personally as an athlete because regardless of what, the one consistency in the research around female athletes is it's still very
inconclusive. It's still very much based on the individual athletes, so we have a responsibility to really understand ourselves. So that would be the first thing.
It's a really cool time to explore who you are as an athlete. And I think the other thing to know is that as women, we have these significant changes across the lifespan as well.
So for me, another journey that I've experienced personally as an athlete as well is the discrepancy between what I was like as an athlete at 25 and what I'm like as an athlete now at 40 something.
What used to work for me and what I used to be able to tolerate at 25 and what I can tolerate now at 40 something.
There's big difference there in terms of fatigue profiles in terms of the way that I need to manage myself nutritionally in terms of my stress profile and cortisol and what I can tolerate in
in an exercise session and what will burn me out. There's big differences there, so we need to understand that we also fluctuate across the lifespan.
So be prepared to be able to adjust the way you're surfing. So if you started surfing at the age of 45, but you're watching a 25, what a 25-year-old would do on social media for their serve training, and if it's not the right fit, then don't beat yourself up about that.
You might be in a different lifespan where you need to support your body in a different way. So to understand that, and another thing is to, if you're going to, if I was going to pull this back and go, this is actually, this is the number one question that I get asked from the female server community.
The number one question is where do I start? How do I get started? This is recreational athletes from the age of 20 through to 55.
And so that's the number one question. So I developed from that two things. One was a female server screening protocol, which is designed around age
around the female biology and physiology and how our bodies work and how we and how and matching that against the demands of that particular athletes type of surfing so that they can figure out from that assessment screening, oh okay I need to work on my balance or I need to work on my fitness or whatever it might be.
It's the way for them to really hone in as an individual and the second thing I did was develop the pillar system.
So the pillar system is based off screening hundreds of female surf athletes from beginner level to CT level and understanding from injury data and the injury information that we get from a competitive perspective and understanding the challenges that female athletes experience with progressing their surfing and if I had to pick the top three things what would they be and out of those top three things what would be the most important.
So the newer rope you know is courseability so if you're going to start somewhere and you had no idea where to start, pull it all back, come back to course stability.
It's a really important injury prevention capacity for female athletes, particularly when it comes to lower limb injuries. It's really important for powering up our surfing and being able to transfer load and to manage the demands of surfing even though we might have a smaller shoulder muscle mass size.
So I always will always start with a female athlete if they only have limited time and they only have the mental capacity to do with one thing that would be where I would start.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Does that help? Definitely, definitely. So it sounds like you're eluded to some programs that you have on your website.
candice
I do. I have programs that actually, I always rehash them and redo them. So they're actually all about to be updated.
But I have the pillar base system on the website and the surface screening is also on the website. And then we've been doing some really fun skiing.
what training which is orientated around preparation for surf trips and that in itself now is going to be designed into another program because that's actually been running really well.
Michael Frampton
Okay, what's the pillar program?
- candice
So the pillar program, there's three short courses that you can do. So each course is designed to last for four weeks.
You start with course stability, then you go into upper body development and then you've got lower body development. The lower body development is really about helping female athletes power up their lower limbs for force and speed generation.
And so we'd be looking at things like we were talking about early on in the podcast around eccentrically loading.
How do we collect energy? Where do we need to be stable to do this? With the upper body stuff, it's around being able to improve our paddling capacity, popping up, all that sort of stuff.
And duck diving and the challenges of making sure that you have the strength to get to be taking off in the most critical part of that wave and also getting yourself out of trouble.
So that's the upper body course and the first one is the most important pillar which is the course stability.
So that was set up to, again, if you were going to cover the foundations, you would actually be dealing it with those three courses and in that order of importance.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. How do you describe the course stability?
candice
Oh, yeah. I have an educational component about this in the course and it's the female server approach to course stability.
For me, it's very much orientated, I won't go into too much detail, but it's very much orientated around the axial skeleton because that is the axis movement.
So that's what core is to me. It's from head to pubic bone. It's includes the scapula, it includes the shoulder blades, it includes the pelvis, it includes the organisation and the alignment of the spine, it includes the jaw, all those sorts of things.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so we're talking to not just set up some planks?
candice
No, no, and I know there's a, yeah, I'm not a big believer again in bracing when it comes to courseability.
Bracing is a strategy that the body uses, again, under heavier load, but if you're doing things like planks, then that's not necessarily making you adaptable in your core.
Core is designed to enable you to stay upright and stable in space, and it's designed to help you transfer load, and it's there for movement efficiency, basically, yeah.
It makes it more robust and more powerful athlete, but you know when it's dysfunctional, as you know, you know when it's not working for somebody, you can see it in the movement.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, and what's the name of
candice
your website the female surfer.com perfect I will put links to that in the show notes and you're on instagram as well remind me of your handle at the female surfer too easy again I'll put links to that in the show notes we could talk for hours but it's coming up the top of the hour so we'll leave it there for today yeah well yeah wow cool it's been fun to get you on again yeah yeah love to be on cool well thank you so much Candace thank you for the listeners go check the show notes out cool too easy also thanks so much no thank you
103 Captain Liz Clark - Adventure Surfer
Sep 26, 2024
Captain Liz Clark: Surfer, sailor, author, change maker. In this episode Liz describes her deep, multifaceted relationship with the ocean, which has provided her a sense of peace, acceptance, and purpose over the years. She discusses how the ocean has challenged her to grow in many ways, reflects on her decision to embark on a solo sailing voyage in her 20s, despite the significant risks involved.
Liz shares advice for surfers looking to improve their relationship with the sport, emphasizing the importance of focusing on enjoyment and flow rather than performance-based goals. She discusses how her own surfing evolved to be more about the experience than competition as she got older.
Liz describes how her solo sailing voyage led to a profound "awakening" in multiple aspects of her life - discovering herself as a woman, developing a deeper spiritual connection, and gaining a clearer understanding of her place in the world.
Well, I mean, it's surfing is such a foundational part of my life. It's just one of the biggest pillars that I revolve my world around.
And so, yeah, surfing means so much to me. shape so many of my decisions around it, you know, based on being able to keep freedom and have a lifestyle that allows me to surf when the waves are good and be in a place where I can enjoy that year round, know.
Yeah, it's my salvation and my playground and You know, it gives me so, so much.
My relationship to the ocean. I mean, the ocean has given me so much, you know, when you think back to.
When I think back to my youth and. Just how the ocean was always a place that I could go to feel.
At peace and accepted. Always kind of a medium where I felt like I could be myself. And then, of course, when I spent.
Ten years, you know, more than a decade and. Thousands of miles traveling the ocean on my sailboat. You know, the.
Ocean gave me so many challenges and, you know, was a place where I was forced to grow in so many ways that, yeah, our relationship is something of like love and respect and a healthy amount of fear, but there's so much more to gain than, you know, to fear in my opinion, so something I keep going back to all the time to feel good, to stay inspired, to keep feeling a purpose in my life, and so yeah, I'm very close to the ocean and hope that I will get to continue to be.
You know, I've learned to kind of calculate my risks in my 40s now, you know, I used to kind of fling myself madly at my ocean escapades, but, you know, now I tend to use a bit more calculated risk when it involves surfing and, you know, long distance voyaging or sailing adventures.
But yeah, I mean, I don't really, to be honest, focus on the scariest parts, so I don't really even know what I would fear the most.
I try to focus on the good parts, and I think that's always served me.
Obviously, yeah, because I'm getting out on a solo voyage in your early, was it your 20s? Yeah, like, there's so much, like a young woman by herself on a second hand boat, like surfing to surf reef passes, like injuries, pirates, like the list of risks is insane.
Like, what gave you the mouse to sit across such upon such a voyage? Like, where did it come from?
Yeah, to be honest, I don't know. It's almost like it was born and instilled it into me always because, you know, I had the experience of growing up on boats and getting a taste of that pleasure of seeing the world by boat as a young child.
you know, neither my brother or my sister ever had quite the same desire as I did to continue that and live it out.
in such a way that I did. So I don't really know exactly where it came from, but the determination to do it and the desire was always just such a huge part of my world and I didn't really question why.
And yeah, the risks, I knew what the risks were and people were constantly telling me and talking about them, especially in the several years that I spent preparing the boat for the voyage.
You know, there was just constantly people telling me why this was not a good idea and kind of nacing it.
I think there was a deep down. I really knew that there was more to gain than to lose and that those risks were going to be like part of the fun at that.
age, I was really, you know, I loved the idea of adventure and unknown and kind of just going without a plan.
So at that time, there was parts of that that appealed to me. You know, what really I feared, I think most, as I said, out was failure, you know, like failing my job as people that helped me and whether it was financially or, you know, sweat, blood and tears.
There was just a lot riding on me pulling it all off. so that was the biggest fear, was just that I couldn't perform as a captain or, you know, do, fulfill those duties or things that I needed to do to be successful at the voyage.
I mean, Captain, I define as being able to manage your ship safely, to be able to, you know, your passengers safely to the other side.
You know, at the beginning of the voyage, I was always with different crew and friends who had very little boating experience.
And so there was a lot of responsibility on me to make sure everybody stayed safe and understood the basics of, you know, what the risks were of being out there on the ocean.
So, I think that's my definition of being a captain or being a good captain. And, and I would have defined failure at that point as, you know, running.
the boat of ground on the reef or you know in a way that it would have been like a repairable damage to swell or you know just deciding that it all too scary for me and I didn't want to do it you know giving up in some kind of way like that.
Hmm the subtitle to the book is a sale a sailing surface voyage of awakening. That sounds quite it's quite a spiritual subtitle what do you mean by awakening and describe what that means to you what's that journey of awakening.
Yeah, I think it means many things, to me it meant awakening in terms of me discovering myself and knowing who I am as a person, as a woman.
That was a huge part of the journey and then also kind of an awakening to the realities of the world and understanding my place in it, a connection as well to my spirituality and like a deeper understanding of my place in the universe.
All of those things were kind of like an unexpected part of what I did. I really set out kind of with just the idea that I was, you know, going
out there to find remote waves and and surf these breaks and have fun. And you know, there was just so much more to it.
When I actually got out there, I learned that to be able to succeed at what I was doing, it was really important for me to be able to look within and remove any of those obstacles that were blocking me from being kind of like in alignment with the greater forces of the world.
Because when you're out there, you're so vulnerable and so dependent on nature and the ocean to kind of cooperate with you, that it really became apparent that, you know, my inner journey and my outer world had connected in a really important way.
And that, you know, doing the work within, I would be rewarded on in the physical world, you know, externally, I guess?
What do you mean by that? I think I mean, looking within and seeing how I could be a better person, recognizing self-awareness, basically, you know, there's always things that we don't see being ourselves and that, you know, it takes, it took me time alone on the ocean with lots of time to reflect and really think about who I was and who I wanted to be, to be able to kind of like do that in our work, do that job of looking at things maybe you don't like about yourself or you wanna do.
better at and kind of put them into play in your everyday life.
Definitely, but I think my relationship with myself as well, you know, yes, definitely with other people, you know, there was a point in my voyage where I wanted to make amends with everybody that I felt that I'd wronged in my life and, you know, wrote letters to different people that I wanted to apologize to or clarify something with.
But there was also an ongoing relationship with myself that needed attention and, you know, me discovering my power as a woman, as a person, depended so heavily on me.
being able to be confident and learn to love myself really. that wasn't something that came naturally to me. I was kind of, I never thought that I deserved maybe as much as other people did.
And so it took me time to kind of develop my self-worth, I guess I would say.
Interesting. And you mentioned the connection between the inner and outer worlds. Could you think of a literal example? maybe when you were feeling a bit more self-worth and calmness was was the ocean karma at the time?
don't think it was so directly, visible, but I think, uh, over time, I, I understood that, uh, you know, my, not only my qualms, but my attitude towards things.
Like, during this voyage, you know, being on a boat, things are constantly breaking. Uh, I think there's just always challenges, you know, and at the beginning, I would, I tended to, you know, very quickly get frustrated and want to throw my arms up and be like, you know, everything's never going my way.
Um, then, you know, at some point, I kind of realized like, if I don't find a way to see these challenges as opportunities or, you know, at least try to like, stay calm and accept that this is absolutely going to be part, constantly part of my reality on this.
journey. I would have given up within the first year. I had to transform my way of thinking about those challenges in order to find positivity in them because it would have just been constantly too hard.
So I think over time as I began to understand that connection of me just feeling frustrated and it would almost always get just worse if I reacted in that way to a problem or in a difficult person that came in my life.
If I resisted it and made it a bigger fuss out of it, it always ended up being more challenging.
so I think over time as I realized like okay I've got to just you know consider this busted a windless motor, you know, a chance to maybe meet some interesting people that are going to help me fix it or, you know, I found that over time, you know, the challenges did lead me to cool, really cool experiences if I could keep an open mind.
And so I think it was, it wasn't so overnight that I said, oh, I'm calm and the ocean's calm.
No, the ocean was always throwing new challenges at me. It was just more a matter of like me seeing the alignment between going with the flow in those moments and letting them lead me towards somewhere that maybe I didn't have in mind.
And then getting there and having a really cool surprise happen, you know, going to having the wind push me in a direction that I didn't originally think I want to go, for example, and then getting to a place that I would have never gone to initially, but and discovering something really cool when I got there.
Yeah, no, I like that and it's also, I think that part of you was also very present before you set out on the journey, because do you see that in hindsight?
I mean, I think it was probably always there. I think being out on the ocean and kind of like especially when I was sailing alone, you know, just like the noise was gone and I could hear myself better and I could think clearer and, you know, kind of, it just accelerated the process of me having those realizations and understandings.
think being in the environment that I was out on the ocean, yeah, because I mean. Sitting out on on such a voyage at such a young age and ignoring all of the challenges and the people who are pointing out the barriers and challenges.
There's certainly an element of faith that led you to, you know, do it anyway.
Definitely. I, I certainly had a confidence in myself, a confidence in my capability to you know, problem-solve and overcome obstacles that would come up.
Maybe to almost a, maybe to almost a, you know, scary degree. My parents might have thought that but, but yeah, I who wanted to try.
to improve and do better and be a good person. So whatever that means to you. For me, being out there seemed to definitely accelerate the opportunities to have that inner growth in those relatives.
No, no real actual pirates. Um, no, but definitely plenty of unpleasant men and situations that, you know, I had to avoid or, you know, be smart and you know, I was pretty hyper aware of those kinds of dangers.
I'd say I was You know, I think those, those were the scariest things to me at that point was encountering dangerous men or, you know, more powerful than me that could do harm.
didn't overthink it or concentrate on it too much, but, you know, I definitely learned to tune into my instincts and when I met someone that didn't feel, you know, gave me an uncomfortable feeling, you know, a right away I would remove myself from the situation and do what I needed to do to not be in their path again, you know.
I mean, I had, yeah, definitely some moments that I wouldn't want to relive if I didn't have to, but in general, I think I was pretty smart about it.
But I always, you know, when I got to a new place, I kind of couldn't. you always met people, you know, generally upon arrival somewhere, the boating community is really small and, you know, tended to, with people who I felt safe with, and, you know, already creating that little bubble of people who are kind of looking out for me was, I feel like, a really good way to, you know, do you think it was a rite of passage, in a way, journey itself?
You know, I don't think young people have the same opportunities for that kind of experience in today's world, or we don't, you know, focus on it as much as certainly some civilizations and people did in the
pass and I do think I see the value in it so so much after having done what I did in my 20s, I see young people not getting that opportunity or giving themselves that opportunity and in that age group and I wish that our society did more to say like it's important for you to go out and spread your rings and fall if you have to and get back up and especially that age because you're really forging who you are, you're learning yourself, you're setting yourself up for the decision you're going to make and the life path that you're going to choose you know ahead of you so yeah I believe I didn't intend to write a passage really at the time but it absolutely was that I'm looking back hmm yeah
Well I think they're a really beautiful thing and we're lucky when we find ourselves in those moments where things flow and I definitely think that we can like I'm saying you know in terms of how our inner alignment affects our outer world you know when when everything when we're making choices and doing things to keep our inner world you know healthy and feeling good I do think that that is reflected externally and how things kind of happen around us and definitely lead us towards being in flow state more often I don't think we can be there all the time but I think
that's what makes it so special and and keeps us you know aiming to tune back in and and get aligned and try to find those special flow state moments again you know yes I imagine if you've been sailing and you're tired and then you turn up to some reef pass and it's just pumping it kind of has to be surfed and that the pressure of that situation would elicit a deep flow state I imagine yeah sometimes sometimes I think it would elicit the opposite because you know there was times when I would get somewhere and I was exhausted you know after a long passage and the surf would be good and I would force myself to go there when actually my body and everything was telling me you need to rest
to you know and I was constantly in conflict because the the boat and my you know the safety of the boat had to always remain first priority when in my heart like I was a surfer and I wanted to just jump off that boat and go surfing sometimes but a lot of times that that couldn't be you know that couldn't be my reality I had to deal with the priority of keeping the boat safe first you know interesting did you make some mistakes where you put surfing ahead of your own instincts absolutely especially at the beginning I you know I left my boat unattended and some bay and would go off hitchhiking to find waves and end up meeting some nice people and spend the somewhere you know and luckily for me I never had any big problems
you know, I never got too big of a consequence from some of those decisions that I made, but I definitely, there was a learning curve at the beginning where I was like, I would get back and I remember in Puerto Escondido, we'd gone, I'd left the boat at anchor, gone on a little surf mission for a couple of days and came back and when we pulled up the anchor to leave, the rope must have been, the anchor road had been chafing on something on the bottom and there was just like a tiny bit of rope holding it, you know, so I had those moments where I got really close to disaster and learned that I, you know, I had to keep my priorities straight if I wanted to avoid a crisis, you know.
I mean, I got Sony so many good waves. But there was a lot of time where, you know, there'd be a long stints in between sometimes because, you I'd be stuck somewhere fixing something and, you know, be in a port with dirty water where there was no surf around and then, but I think that's what made those experiences when I finally did get when all the elements came together and, you know, there was a safe anchorage and the waves were on and I had somebody fun to surf with and, you know, it just made it so precious.
Those experiences had to be so earned that they were sacred, you know? Yeah, so lots and lots of good waves.
out there. It's just matter of going out and getting off the beaten path. I think sometimes in today's world, I feel like when we have it too easy, we do lose that depth of appreciation that does make something so special.
And yeah, that can kind of affect our experience in a way, you know.
I think it was, I think it was one of the principal driving forces. I think I also had this very deep desire to live really close to nature.
and simplify and kind of get away from this modern world that didn't always make sense to me. always, from a young child, wanted to protect nature and was an environmentalist and really wanted to go out there and try to experience a life where I could have a lower impact and you know live in alignment with my values in that way and so I saw this journey as kind of a way to escape what I didn't think about the modern world and you know live those principles that I believed in.
But yeah surfing was absolutely like a huge priority for me as well you know.
So you've experienced competition surfing at a high level. And then you've also experienced what I would argue probably the purest form of surfing, which is adventure and just surfing for the sake of surfing.
No, I never really have. And I was so determined to get better at surfing in my teens and I didn't come from a family of surfers.
I didn't have any real role models close to me that could teach me to surf better. And so competition was a good way in my, you know, late teens and twenties to...
I felt like improve my surfing and meet other surfers and be part of the surf scene. But in the end, you know, after I won that competition, I think I realized a few things.
I realized that my love for surfing was more about those exploratory experiences. What I loved being out there and, you know, going through nature, whether was like sliding down a muddy hill or, you know, wondering what it was going to, a certain break was going to be like on a certain tide and going for that adventure and figuring it out.
You know, I definitely found myself lighting up more in those moments than, you know, competition started to feel stressful and not as fun, I guess.
So, and I also kind of realized like coming without a surfing background, like without that in my family. I don't know the surfing world at that time, especially as a woman, seemed like you needed a lot of support.
You needed to know people. It was kind of like a who's who thing at that point as well. And I didn't have that.
I thought, you know, pursuing professional surfing is going to be really hard for me with the background that I have.
So, yeah. it seemed like, especially when the opportunity presented itself and this mentor came in my life who wanted to offer me this bow, you know, it was like I can use all of this experience that I have growing up on boats, combined it with my love for exploratory surfing.
And this is just like the epitome of my voyaging dreams and my surfing dreams coming together, know.
I think my biggest advice would be to keep remembering that it's all about enjoying yourself and having fun. And that no matter if you're.
you know, surfing more difficult waves or improving in the way that, you know, the surf world deems as a better surfer.
I think focusing on going out there to enjoy yourself and remembering the benefits of camaraderie of meeting other surfers.
I think those are the important things to remember. I used to be so hard on myself if I didn't have a good session and once I kind of set up on the voyage and had this much more pure experience of surfing, I let go of a lot of those expectations on myself and really started to focus in on like doing it because
It's just so great and when you do end up having one of those moments of improvement or when things come together for you, it's just so wonderful, but focusing too hard on putting too much pressure on yourself is often backfire and make it less enjoyable and even causing positive to not improve quickly because you're feeling negative about yourself or the situation.
Yeah, I think the letting go aspect increases the chance of a flow state and really the deeper you get into a flow state is when you, know, time slows down and you read the wave at a better level and therefore you surf better.
Absolutely. Yeah, and the more of those states you enter, over time the better your surfing gets overall.
Yeah, it's so much more about your connection to the ocean and, you know, like, take for example the surfing of Leah Dawson, you you think about, she just breaks all the rules and does it her way and that's what makes it so special, you know, and in my opinion, she's one of the best woman surfers there is.
But yeah, so I think just, yeah, bringing your own charisma, your own personality into it and finding what feels good and enjoying it is really way to go.
Yeah, no, I agree. Karina Resonco comes to mind, like, she's such a free spirit in the way she surfs, she's like, always looks like she's in a flow state.
Yeah, I fell in love with French Polynesia for a lot of reasons and waves were definitely on that list.
But also, yeah, the people and the culture here and... Yeah, I met my now husband and so there was a lot of things that have kept me here, but yeah, the quality of the surf is so good and I ended up wanting to stay here longer because at the time I was like, you know, I'm only going to be able to surf waves of this level for so long and it's funny because now I'm 44 and I'm surfing better than I ever had.
haven't, you know, it's all relative, it's all about staying healthy and staying continuing to enjoy it. yeah, you know, my relationship with surfing has, it always, like anything has, it's ups and downs or it's moments where things plateau and you don't feel the same inspiration as you I'm at a really good place for surfing right now.
It remains a huge source of re-inspiration and re-powering for me. I'm doing a ton of community activism and work here, the environment and for animals and you know, I do give a lot of energy all the time and then, you know, when the wave turns on, when the waves turn on, it's like, okay.
It's my turn. It's my time. need to go fill my cup back up and, you know, it really helps keep me going to be able to give.
Maybe just time in good ways, you know, but also for sure taking care of my body, eating healthy yoga, all of those things have allowed me to, you know, stay physically fit enough to keep doing it at the level that I'm doing it, you know.
So, yeah, a combination of all those things, I guess.
Yeah, and I think too for me, you know, all those years while I was living on Swell and the boat was my main residence.
I always had to, had the boat as like the vocal point, like I said before, it just had to be the priority and in the last, since 2018, late 2018, I moved on to land and have a land base and have been able to kind of like put more time into surfing, which is really allowed me to, you know, not kind of like stay at that same level where I would get to do it just enough to feel something again and make an improvement, but also, you know, like go back out soon and just be able to improve quicker because I was, my focus can be more right on that versus.
is how this thing's broken and I got to take, I got to take the boat to this other island to do this vat and you know always some sort of complication of living on the ocean.
Um okay let's see. Top three books. I would say maybe in terms of like self-growth and self-awareness. would choose The Four Agreements by Don Ruiz Miguel.
Adventure books. I think it would be between the book Audrey Sutherland wrote called Paddling Really Love The Long Way by Bernard Montesier.
It's more of a sailing book but his way of describing his relationship with the ocean and the way he kind of rebels against society.
I saw lot of in our journey and really related to his story. I just recently read a book that I love called How I Keep Rising.
It's the story of the Hokulea and the how Polynesian navigation was kind of rediscovered through Nainoa Thompson and how they built this traditional sailing canoe and did the journey to Tahiti and it's so incredible.
learning how they rediscovered the use of the stars and the sky and the chart, it was fascinating.
wanted to ask you, you sort of mentioned it before. or femininity? How would you define that word? And how has the definition of it changed since you left Santa Barbara all those years ago?
Well, I think growing up in Southern California, I had this impression that femininity had to be a certain way and that beauty in general and femininity kind of were wrapped up in this one sort of way that women were supposed to look.
And when I got out on my voyage, it took me years to break down those principles in my mind.
It was so ingrained in me that femininity equaled like pink dresses and big and lipstick and you know the things that are traditionally kind of associated with femininity and to understand my own version of femininity and to allow myself to not only explore that but like validate it to myself what femininity could look like and being in places way off the beaten path where you know women weren't that those things the ideals weren't ingrained into them at all and their confidence and beauty you know I began to see femininity in a new light through a lot of these women that I met out in these really remote places and see that it has so much more to do with your confidence and
owning yourself and what you love, so, yeah, being able to start incorporating those ideas into my own definition and version of femininity, man, it changed my life so much to accept that, you know, I wasn't the girl who wanted to wear frilly dresses, but I was am feminine in such a beautiful way, you know, and the femininity that is part of me is what, you know, allowed me to kind of slow down and embrace nature in a way that maybe, you know, the more masculine side of me never really allowed myself to because I thought that especially trying to go out there and be a captain and live in this very male oriented world of being a boat owner
and even a surfer, you know, these were male-dominated scenes that I was kind of pushing myself into, and I thought I had to be masculine to succeed and to fit in.
And when I allowed myself to embrace my style of femininity, I think it really, it allowed me to succeed and being proud of myself in a new way that definitely, you know, changed the way I sailed, changed the way I served, and made my life a lot more enjoyable because I embraced really who I am.
Wow, I love that. So the subtitle is Sailing Surfer's Voyage of Awakening. It's very apt, but it's not just, it's sort of awakening in many assets.
spiritually, relationships, your relationship with ocean and surfing, talk about your diet and how it's affected your health or it's a very broad, it's an awesome book, there's so much in it.
Just as we finish off, let me ask you, if there was one piece of advice that from this book that you could give to your younger self, what would that be?
I think it would be to embrace those obstacles as opportunities, embrace challenges as something to learn from, embrace difficult people as your chance to practice your virtues, know, all of those, it's kind of the same kernel right there, which would have allowed me to
Avoid a lot of pain and frustration as a young person, I think, um, and really to just be myself and love myself and embrace who I am no matter what other people thought and don't compare myself to others as much, you know, yeah.
Awesome. Well Liz, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to check with Sir Mastery and my listeners.
Um, yeah. I will have links to all of that stuff in the show notes for listeners. And yeah, I encourage everyone to read the book and follow you on Instagram and what do you have any adventures coming up?
What's next? Well, I'm currently under. taking an adventure to spay and neuter, all the dogs on the island where I'm living, dogs and cats.
non-profit is undertaking a big campaign this year to reduce over population and animals suffering here on this island. I've kind of shifted my adventure into community activism and for the moment I don't have like a big sailing venture on the horizon but yeah I'm really enjoying this really different sort of adventure you know having to work with others and work with the government you know the municipality and its challenges in a whole new way so that's great.
Yeah thank you so much for the invite and the next questions appreciate it.
102 Tom Gellie-The Importance of Athletic Stance in Surfing for Beginners and Experts
Sep 11, 2024
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In this episode, Michael Frampton connects with Tom Gellie, a renowned ski instructor and bodyworker, to explore the intricate relationship between biomechanics and athletic performance. Tom shares his expertise on the gait cycle, its significance in both skiing and surfing, and how it can be applied to enhance technique and prevent injuries. The discussion also covers Tom’s journey in the field, his approach to movement analysis, and the resources available through Big Picture Skiing.
Key Takeaways:
Understanding the Gait Cycle:
Tom explains the concept of the gait cycle as detailed in Gary Ward’s book What the Foot?. He discusses how understanding this cycle can help identify movement issues and improve performance in skiing and surfing.
Biomechanics in Skiing and Surfing:
Tom delves into how biomechanical principles apply to skiing and surfing, sharing examples of how movement analysis can address performance issues and enhance overall technique.
Comparison of Biomechanics Approaches:
The conversation touches on the similarities and differences between Gary Ward’s approach and that of Gary Gray, providing insights into how these methods contribute to understanding and improving human movement.
Tom’s Journey and Resources:
Tom reflects on the impact of Gary Ward’s work on his coaching practice and invites listeners to explore his resources, including the Big Picture Skiing website and social media channels.
The Role of Gait Analysis in Performance:
Understanding the gait cycle helps diagnose movement inefficiencies and enhances athletic performance by addressing underlying biomechanics issues.
Application Across Sports:
Insights from gait analysis and biomechanics apply to both skiing and surfing, illustrating how cross-disciplinary knowledge can lead to better technique and injury prevention.
The Importance of Comprehensive Movement Mapping:
Detailed mapping of every joint and phase of movement allows for precise analysis and correction of movement patterns that contribute to injuries or performance issues.
Self-Study and Continuous Learning:
Tom’s experience underscores the value of self-study and staying updated with new research and techniques. Continuous learning can transform professional practice.
Holistic Approach to Movement:
A holistic view of how body parts interact during movement helps in identifying compensatory patterns and areas that need improvement.
Influence of External Resources:
Utilizing resources like books, videos, and courses from experts such as Gary Ward provides valuable insights and tools for enhancing movement analysis and coaching techniques.
Impact of Biomechanics on Injury Prevention:
Proper understanding of biomechanics is crucial for preventing injuries by correcting faulty movement patterns and maintaining proper alignment and function.
Tom’s Personal Impact:
Tom reflects on the transformative effect of Gary Ward’s work on his coaching practice, highlighting the profound influence of mentors and resources on one’s career.
For more insights and tips from Tom Gellie: Follow Tom Gellie:
Michael Frampton: [00:00:51] Welcome back or welcome to the Self Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Today's guest is Tom Gellie. Tom has a really interesting introduction to his newfound passion for surfing as an adult learner. Because Tom isn't a ski instructor, a very experienced and sought after ski instructor at that, as well as a body worker, a functional movement and biomechanical practitioner. He's also been podcasting for a long time, so he's very well spoken. And I really, really enjoyed this conversation with Tom. We could have gone on and on and spoken for a lot longer, so I know everyone here will enjoy this one. You can check out a bit more of Tom at Big Picture skiing.com, because Tom also teaches a lot of his skiing stuff online and of course, Instagram of the same name. There'll be links to everything Tom in the show notes to this episode. And of course you can check out my website, Surf mastery.com, but just before I fade in that interview, I wanted to talk about a new wetsuit I got recently from. I'll hold it up here if you're watching on YouTube. This is a flat rock wetsuit. You may have seen people wearing these, uh, quite new in the wetsuit game. And, uh, gosh, it is hands down the most comfortable wetsuit I have ever worn.
Michael Frampton: [00:02:24] It's, uh, it's made from Japanese limestone. Neoprene. And it, uh, it feels like a cross between silk and butter, and it fits so good. So stoked with this new wetsuit. And it's just it's a slightly more expensive than it needs essential wetsuit. So it's not an expensive wetsuit, but, uh, gosh, it's a lot warmer and better fitting and more comfortable than a needs essential wetsuit. I'll give it that for sure. And I actually wore this is the two three version I've got. I've had it for a little bit, and then I went to go surfing the other day in the middle of winter here in New Zealand. And my four three O'Neill, which is about twice the price. I had a hole in it and the crutch, so I couldn't wear that. So I grabbed this thinking, oh, I'll just go for a quick surf. It doesn't matter if I get cold. And I was really surprised with how warm this two three wetsuit was. The wind did not cut through it like it would my knee to central two three. So yeah. Anyway, awesome wetsuit and the guys at flat Rock have been kind enough to give my listeners a discount on a wetsuit.
Michael Frampton: [00:03:35] So if you go to flat rock.com dot a U and we've got a coupon code at checkout, which is master 15, so that's master one five, sorry, that's flat rock wetsuits.com dot a u. New flat rock wetsuit. Com.au. I will have a link to that website in the show notes though, and as well as I'll write down that coupon code for a 15% discount, which is master 15, master one five. So yeah, it's an also another way to support this show. Next time you buy a wetsuit, give it a crack. Great wetsuits. The fitting. I got a medium, I'm a medium and O'Neill and I'm. And I am in a medium, um, with my needs essential as well. And, uh, sizing wise, great wetsuits. Um, they also ship internationally as well. So it doesn't matter whether you're in California or Australia or New Zealand or wherever you're listening from. They ship internationally. And, uh, mine turned up pretty quick and it's a great wetsuit. So yeah, go and check out flat Rock wetsuits Ecomcrew discount code master 15 for that. And then, without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Tom Gellie of Big Picture Skiing. You started your skiing podcast back in 2015, and that's when I started this podcast.
Tom Gellie: [00:05:15] Yeah. Right. Okay. Well, same, same sort of time. Yeah. What was the incentive behind you doing it? What was the main reason?
Michael Frampton: [00:05:23] So I mean, I started surfing, you know, I was a white trash dairy farmer. And then when I left school, I discovered surfing and the beaches that me and my friend would surf at. There was no one else surfing around. It was all self-taught, just on whatever board the local salesman decided to sell us. Um, didn't stop us though. We were so passionate about it. And, you know, obviously we picked up a little bit from magazines and that and then, you know, fast forward 15 years and I ended up living in Palm Beach and scored a job with Matt Grainger at the High Performance Center. And just around the corner from you. Right. And you said you're in the ravine. Yeah. And that was my first really introduction into, you know, the surf coaching world. And then obviously being surrounded by really good waves and really good surfers and people that, you know, I get listed their surfing performance quite high up. And it wasn't just what I was learning, you know, as through the journey of becoming a surf coach and getting surf coaching myself, it was the conversations I was having with everyone around. So I kind of thought, oh, podcasting was new back then. I was like, oh, I should share these conversations.
Tom Gellie: [00:06:36] That's right. Not not everyone gets the chance. Like I haven't had that sort of chance. Like you have to be around people like Matt Grainger on probably a daily basis, and then his friends who surf at a really high level And then all those things could be in a car, could be sitting, you know, because there's no surf. You're just sitting there talking. Those are gold. And that's what I realized. Same in the ski world happens. And it's really neat this in this day and age how we can share that stuff.
Michael Frampton: [00:07:07] Exactly. So big picture skiing. Why did you choose that name?
Tom Gellie: [00:07:13] I chose that name because I wanted something that sort of represented that I. When I think about something, I really try and look at it from all angles. And definitely at that point when I sort of started it, which was actually just COVID's hit. So my job as a sort of functional body worker type person, I had a pretty successful practice. People coming in couldn't put hands on people anymore. And I was going through this period of really just realizing, like the way I saw things, you know, like I was like, oh, I know how to fix people with knee pain, you know? Because I'd figured out this, you know, one method modality and had worked, worked, worked. But then it would come to a point where it would stop working, and I'd have to, like, find new ways. And so I just had so many experiences where I realized there's just so many different ways of looking at the same thing. And the more you can do that, the better you are at dealing with people when they come to you with their with their particular problem. Like the old don't use a like hammer for everything they're saying is. So yeah, I was trying to look for a name that encompassed that. Like, I want to teach you and view the way you approach skiing from the big picture right out here, so I can see it from all angles.
Michael Frampton: [00:08:35] So when did surfing come into the picture?
Tom Gellie: [00:08:38] Not long after that, because we moved from the inner part of Sydney to the Northern Beaches to North Narrabeen in January 2021, and I'd spent a lot of time, you know, being an Aussie, we spent a lot of time in summer holidays at the beach and body surfing, boogie boarding, that sort of stuff. So I was familiar with waves, but now being near the ocean, it's like this I'm going to give it a go. I'm going to take up surfing, because actually I was I was writing to kite surfing. And so we were sort of closer to botany Bay and Sydney. So kite surfing was an easier thing to do. And I loved it and I thought I'd keep doing that. But then, yeah, North Narrabeen, which is a classic break, was just getting the car for three minutes and I'm I'm there. So I decided to take it on and also, and I should say, a really important piece. I knew because skiing was growing and I just really wanted to find something that I could relate to my students in a learning sense, because my, as you probably know, the better you get. You're kind of just, well, there's no point in remembering. If you're if what you're trying to do is just get good at something. Once you get good at something, you shouldn't think about it. You should just do it. Thinking can ruin things, but I need to go backwards in my skiing to help people. And like, what am I actually doing here? Surfing really helped me be on the same page in terms of how it takes a lot of time. It takes going through frustration periods. It takes looking for different angles at approaching the same problem you're trying to overcome. So that was that was a big motivating factor. But then of course got got the feeling for it. And and I just do it because I love it as well. Yeah.
Michael Frampton: [00:10:28] Oh that's interesting. I bet you've got some interesting perspectives on your surfing journey. But before we get to that, obviously skiing has been in your in your world a lot longer. When did you start skiing?
Tom Gellie: [00:10:42] We would take family Trips, sort of for a week every year since I was, you know, one years old. I was in my dad's backpack ski touring around the Australian Alps, if you can call them that. And so we would do that every every year. And, but, but something inside of me always wanted to go to Canada. I can't explain, it wasn't like a book. I didn't read a book or whatever. But after finishing university in Albury, I was like, I'm going to Canada, I'm not getting another job. I'm going to see what it's like over there and get in some really good quality snow. So I went to British Columbia, had no job because the way uni lined up, I had to stick around. So all the jobs have been taken. So I just got a flight, got on the internet, found a job in a rental shop at Silver Star. That's when like the skiing really took off because then I was I started doing seasons. So that was 2006 and I did back to back winters like so Canada, Australia, Canada or North America somewhere and Australia. And that was uh, that was cool because your progress just goes like through the roof when you are teaching it, but also on snow every day. And Canada is great because it's not super busy as an instructor. So I had so much time to just go and ski for myself and learn from others and get better.
Michael Frampton: [00:12:11] Okay, so do you think that that journey like being passionate about skiing and I've been involved on the coaching side and the technical side as well as just loving it. How did that help you as a surfer?
Tom Gellie: [00:12:26] Massively. Do you know what? I think one of the biggest things I've learned in coaching is back to the big picture sort of name thing again, is a lot of people Like when they watch something like you performing a cutback, they put words to it and describe what it is from their perspective. Okay, so they're looking at you doing something. So then when they describe it, they describe it from how they're viewing it. But then the experience of that is not at all the way it's kind of described often by the coach or the person. So, you know, look at where the arm is. Look at how they drive and compress here and extend here. They can often be like sometimes that can work for people, but often that's just through a process of just a lot of time and repetition and little. You get these little gold pieces somewhere where you feel something. So just realized that when someone says to me, this is what you need to do, I'll take that. But I'll but I'll park it. Kind of, you know, if there's a sphere around me of like, ideas in part of the sphere and then keep searching off the side of that. To what else could he be trying to or she, if she's coaching me, get me to do and could I think of a differently and in my experience of it, would that be different? And maybe I can give an example from the ski world in terms in terms of stance.
Tom Gellie: [00:13:58] So athletic stance in in skiing so important. Just as in surfing. Like you get in a really good athletic position and it can make things much better and work a whole lot better. So you classically teach people about this position, like the flex in the ankles, the knee, the angle of the upper body, you know, where the hands are. And while that's one way of teaching it, you can also cue it up in different ways. Like, you know, when you lean out, like when you start adding like turn forces, you're leaning over, like in a surf turn or a ski turn, leaning right over. There's forces added on you. Some of those things force you into the athletic position naturally, as opposed to you faking this stance that everyone you know gets you to stand on a Bosu ball or something and stand here. And so, yeah, I'm always looking for like the simplest, most potent thing that kills like so many birds with one stone. If they're seeing that my stance is not right, but also this is wrong and this is wrong, can I find the one kind of concept or thing that hits all those, gets all those birds? And so searching for those types of things is um, is what I've been doing with my surfing.
Tom Gellie: [00:15:16] And I think it's going pretty well. I'm, I mean, it's hard to improve later in life, but I think I was telling you, I went to the wave pool for the first time yesterday in Sydney and finally got to, you know, like 21 waves in the hour period, which, like, it just never happens in, in real life. And it was so cool to be able to just practice this same thing over and over again and then see the video, which is even more cool. For me, because like I bought that, I was like, I'm going to buy all the videos. Go home. And I'd had my coach from from surfing video me over over the last few. Years as well. And I could and I can see the change. And then now I'm looking at. You know, for when I do something kind of more in the direction that I want to go. Okay, cool. What did that what did that turn? What did that wave feel like? Go through a process of going deeper on it.
Michael Frampton: [00:16:09] Interesting. The athletic stance for skiing. Is it the same as obviously you're. You know, the way you hold your.
Tom Gellie: [00:16:18] Skis and standing.
Michael Frampton: [00:16:19] Side into a.
Tom Gellie: [00:16:20] Boot etc..
Michael Frampton: [00:16:21] Is different. But maybe from the knees up, is there a lot of similarities in. That athletic stance?
Tom Gellie: [00:16:27] Absolutely. Yeah. Like I don't know so much of the time. Like early on in looking at my surfing, I'd get really annoyed because I knew all this stuff about athletic stance and what should should be there. And for instance, for instance, instead of compressing down through the whole stance, I'll do the cheat's way, which would be I would just drop my head lower around my back and so the knees and hips aren't like the hip joint is not really going lower, the hips itself aren't going lower, but I feel like I'm getting lower. You know, coach is like compress. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Compress, compress all this stuff. And I got so annoyed at that for so long when they would, they would say that like, I had a guy coach me who was really upper level coach, and we'd look at the video and, you know, I was obviously not doing things right. I was basically just going across the wave barely using the top or the bottom, uh, at all. And he pointed out he's like, well, you know, right there there's a section where you could have just made a really good, like, turn back to the pocket and then out and I'm like, I don't even know how to. What do you how do you even do that? So I just got frustrated, like, his things. And like, you got to compress here and all these new words and vocabulary coming in that I just had no way to relate it to what I already knew, but then luckily found this guy.
Tom Gellie: [00:17:46] Tony was more at my level of coaching, not just used to coaching people who had already gone through a lot of experience, and he likes the snow and he was always trying to relate it back to skiing. So I had something that I, that I was was tangible, felt sense. Okay, it's not exactly like that, but it's very similar to this. Tom. Yeah. And then also on the positive would just point out when I was getting things right, because it's so easy to point out, like you're doing this wrong, you're doing this wrong. But if you can show a student, I've definitely learned this from skiing. Like if you give them a task like say, it is the athletic stance this time when you get lower, just see if you can do it. Feel your knees actually flex, feel your hips get lower instead of just your head getting lower. And they just do it like 3%. You just grab onto that and you go. See? You did it. And all they're doing out of everything is focusing on that. And they can then go out and do it again and do it for five, six, 7% better. It's a lot.
Michael Frampton: [00:18:45] There. I would describe the athletic stance as a position where you feel balanced and able to move in any direction without moving in the opposite direction first. How would you.
Tom Gellie: [00:18:58] Describe? Yes.
Michael Frampton: [00:19:00] Is that yours?
Tom Gellie: [00:19:00] I like that description. Yeah. I really like that. But I would say this is interesting. I like the big picture thing. Like that is just. That is a really good description. And we always want to, like, be able to boil it down. So maybe we can put it somewhere. The athletic stance description in two sentences is this. Whereas I think if you can just like that is that is definitely a really good description of it. But then it can be some other things. And if you could come up with ten different ways to describe it. Then you're going to resonate with more people. Do you know what I mean? Like if the language you use like in your mind, that makes perfect sense and everything, you know, like you're, you're talking about without having to make a different, like go backwards first before moving. Like those things there's, there's it's a whole lot kind of behind that.
Michael Frampton: [00:19:53] Yeah. It's a technical way of. It's a coaches. That's how you would describe it to a coach maybe. Yeah.
Tom Gellie: [00:19:57] Yeah yeah. Exactly. Like I've just realized that cuz when you get something right or say like you say, you're coaching me Michael, over like a couple of weeks for sessions. We just worked on my stance and it started getting better by the end of that. And those, you know, our sessions, discussions, chats over message that whole time we combine it down to maybe me saying the same thing and you just have to say to me in that week three, Tom, let's just work on that athletic stance. Remember, like before you were moving back to go forward again, and I would be able to take that whole amount of time and words and knowledge, compress it like like a potent potion is a distillation of like a lot more stuff then it's potent. But I think you can only get those cuz after going through, you know, hearing it, thinking it over, dreaming about it, sleeping. Um, and I think coaches sometimes forget that because you might then go boom. Had this month with Tom. Look where he was. Look where he is now. So much better. And he understands this. And then I'm just going to say that to James next week. Got him for a month and expect the same result just by saying that, you know, this. That's where I think we can get caught up. Does that make sense?
Michael Frampton: [00:21:17] Totally. And it certainly it highlights a point that if you're a client looking for a coach and working with a coach, it's it's not a it's not going to three hours is not going to change anything. It's going to take ten hours before you even know what you're going to change.
Tom Gellie: [00:21:33] Yep. There can be those moments. I think, you know, as a coach, you probably had it where you get that client who's ready. Maybe they've had a whole bunch of history beforehand, and they just needed to hear the right thing from you at that moment. That, of course, happens. And then they probably think you're amazing, but it's also the lead up and possibly all those other things, and you've just spun it in the right way. So there's that. But I absolutely agree with the long, long term approach. And part of my philosophy with coaching is making sure people have in their minds like an expectation. Do you remember the movie lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels? In that one Guy Ritchie film, I'm pretty sure it's in that one. There's this quote where the guy goes, he's like expectations. They're the mother of all f ups. So people coming in like expecting within this certain amount of time, they're going to do this. Not good. If you just get your expectations lower and long term and just see what happens. Be open minded to the result being this, this a, b, c not sure, but I'm just going to go through the experience. I find that's a much better way of doing it.
Tom Gellie: [00:22:49] Yeah, I prefer coaching people over like a season so we can then like get the vocabulary, get through some stumbling blocks. There's always prior knowledge that gets in the way. Like that's a huge, huge barrier. I find that if you can discover those like, like a preconceived idea that say, maybe they heard someone with a lot of status or even like maybe they're pro, they're their favorite pro surfer on a video said, you know, like you got to do this. Bear down with your toes with the with the bottom turn and really whatever. And so they've always done that. And anything that is not saying that they kind of throw out the window. Those situations can really get people stuck and not make them progress. So yeah, I'm always looking out. I'll give an example of one from the ski world because because that's where obviously I've got experience was working with this client from Park City, Utah, and he's been skiing all his life. Really good skier does ski racing, has had coaches from like the US team coach him. He's you know, he's connected so he can get anyone, anyone he really needs to help him with his skiing. And anyway, we do some online coaching work where he's sending me videos, I'm sending him feedback back and partway through I go, why are you not dragging your inside pole? Looks like you're deliberately trying to keep your inside ski pole from touching the snow at all points.
Tom Gellie: [00:24:17] And he said, well, I was told by this high level coach that I should never do that. That's bad technique. And I said, next time you go out, just let it drag. And the reason is you're going to get feeling from. You're not going to lean on it, but you're going to get feeling through that pole. To where your body is leaned over in a turn. Just like if you you know how we like to touch the the water when you lean over with the cup just helps when you're looking straight ahead to have a feeling of where you are in space straight away. Next day he tries this pole drag. Wow, so much better. I feel more relaxed in the turn. I feel like I can go further. Lean it over further. More comfortable. Fixed a whole bunch of things. It's like I can't believe I'd been doing for years, you know, trying to avoid that because someone told me it was the wrong thing to do.
Michael Frampton: [00:25:06] Yes, that person maybe had a bad experience. His pole got caught, and maybe he had a high level of body awareness, and he didn't need that pole to be there. And it worked for him. Just like the surf. Just like the surf you mentioned. Oh, when I do a bottom turn, it feels like my toes are digging in. Well, might not feel like that for everyone.
Tom Gellie: [00:25:26] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it might just be whatever it is you've got to be able to like. And I think the joy of, like, sport and doing things is when you get those feelings because funnily enough, the other day it wasn't in the wave pool, it was at North Narrabeen. I had a bottom turn where I felt my toes like really dig into the board. And I'd never felt that before. Like I'd pushed through the balls of my feet, but never to the point of pushing over and the toes in and the board behave differently, and however many turns and waves I've caught never felt that. And for some reason that happened then. But being I remembered this YouTube video of this guy and my coach sending me watch this. It's a really good, good one on the bottom turn. It's a classic old one. And and anyway, so now that has clicked really really. So it's just kind of funny timing that. But but I love finding those epiphany kind of feeling moments. Once you get it, then you can then you can repeat it. You just got to get yourself in the situation or give your student the environment to feel it. And then they're off to the races.
Michael Frampton: [00:26:41] Back to your initial, I'm going to guess, because of your history with skiing and biomechanics and technique, I'm going to guess that you approach surfing with a pretty reasonable athletic stance right from the get go. So that part of your surfing.
Tom Gellie: [00:26:59] So yeah.
Michael Frampton: [00:27:00] So that part of your surfing, um, you sort of ahead of the game in a way. So which aspect as a beginner surfer like new to it, maybe you just think back to your first year, what were some of the biggest, like roadblocks and the biggest plateaus and learning curves?
Tom Gellie: [00:27:19] Yeah, I mean I think the having the wave pool, if that was back in the beginning, that would have helped, because I think the biggest difference between learning to surf and skiing is that skiing, you can just go up a lift down the same run and do it over and over and over again. You can even stop and just do part of a turn. Like you just do the top half and then stop or the bottom half and then stop or do like all those things. Be able to break it down. I was always trying to find I was just like, I just wish I could do that in surfing. Like, I just want to, like, just do a bottom turn and then stop and not be, like, brought on with all the other things going on and just do it again and do it again, and then do it to the right and then to the left. That was the most frustrating thing for me, because I knew how important. And when I teach skiing, I break that down for people and I force them into just doing it, doing it to find that feeling. And then they can go like link turns and keep searching for it and spend more time doing it. So it was the amount of repetitions was very frustrating. The surf we have locally here is kind of challenging, like you got to make. It's not like there's not really point breaks or anything like that. So you take off, get a maybe a chance to do one maneuver. So just being able to do a bottom turn and a cutback or something took a so many waves to for that to happen.
Tom Gellie: [00:28:45] Oh yes. Actually you know what a big thing. Because I'd also done a lot of snowboarding. I would bog the rail so much because I'd put too much weight on my front foot. I was just so used to like keeping the weight really, even on a board snowboard, that I would just try and do the same on a surfboard. So that was a problem. But then it's funny that, you know, we talk about this and I'm just starting to get to the point now where I'm figuring out that now I've gone too far to the back foot, because I know you've spoken to Clayton and he's you know, and I and early on I found him and he was really helpful, by the way, and how he talks about, like, people just don't stand on the front foot enough. And and now I finally get that. But I needed to go through, like, what a lot of other people went through, which is, is back foot and realizing how you can really turn the board very sharp off the back foot and all this stuff I just went straight into with probably hardly much speed, just trying to rail this thing from snowboarding. So I was yeah, I made this for now. I need to start coming back into that. And because I look at videos of really good surfers and their bottom turn, how much more the front of the board is in the water when it's on rail versus mine, and I can see I'm losing speed to come back up the wave. Yeah. So that was frustrating. Bogging rail so much on.
Michael Frampton: [00:30:07] That note, like the front foot. It's so it's also so dependent on where your front foot is as well because there's a tell me about that.
Tom Gellie: [00:30:17] So, yeah. Here we go. I'm going to get it. I'm going to get some help.
Michael Frampton: [00:30:20] So every surfboard has like a center point or a balance point or a pivot point. Right. Usually the widest point of the surfboard. Now, if your foot is at 45 degrees directly in the center of that pivot point, then your front foot is not good enough. It could be the heel of the front foot, right?
Tom Gellie: [00:30:41] That's behind. You're still behind.
Michael Frampton: [00:30:43] So you're still behind the center point. But then you go. But then if you really want to drive more of that front of the rail of the board in the water, you're going to have to put a lot more weight on the toe, on the forefoot of the front foot. So that heel toe. So you might have you could even have 80, 90% of your weight on the front foot, but still have complete control over back over the rocker of the board. Does that make sense? But if that foot's two inches forward, you're going to have to go all the way to your back foot, and then all of a sudden you're moving more and vice versa if that, if that.
Tom Gellie: [00:31:18] The four and a half being controlled completely in the front foot.
Michael Frampton: [00:31:21] Yeah.
Tom Gellie: [00:31:21] And it makes sense.
Michael Frampton: [00:31:22] And if the stance isn't wide enough, then you're going to put all of your weight on the front and find it frustrating because nothing happens, because your foot's actually just needs to be forward an inch more. But that's that's just something that is obviously avoided with skiing and snowboarding because you're locked into your bike. You set that up. You set your bindings up right before you even get on the board.
Tom Gellie: [00:31:40] Yeah. You can't change that. Your foot is where it is. And you and you learn to use the front of the foot in the back of the foot, but you can't move that entire foot as you said. So then I'm just now thinking like, okay, I really want to go out now. Like you've said that I want to go out now and play with this. Be more mindful of where I place my front foot other than just like intuitively, I've been probably moving around at different points but deliberate with it. So what I'd be looking for then is like some guidance, say from you on. Okay. Well, like, maybe even Mark, like, would you Mark? Mark it with a texta. Yeah. Okay.
Michael Frampton: [00:32:19] Find the wide point of your board or. Yeah. And, you know, one of probably the best way to do it is if you if you surf a wave, you're like, oh, man, their board just something clicked on that wave. Before you pull off, look down at your foot and then put your thumb in front of your toe and just scrape a big mark in the wax and go, bam! That's where my front foot needs to be because that's the most accurate. Now obviously, measuring the board and and putting a line through the wax of where that midpoint is. Okay, that's a good way to start. Or should it be. Is it right. Because maybe it's not literally the widest part of the board. It depends on, you know, there's the rocker and the contour. Every board is different. So it might not literally be the widest part of the board where the pivot point is, but it's going to be very close to there. So that's a good guideline to start thinking of. Right.
Tom Gellie: [00:33:06] That's gold. What you said there. Because I could like picture like taking off having a good couple of turns and then actually, like, not being taken out by the lip or something and being able to ride out. Now my cue is going to be, if that felt good, I'm going to look and try and figure out where my foot foot was. And same goes, if I have a bad one, I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to go slow. So then I can compare and go, right. Okay. What Mike was talking about, I can I can really see that because my foot was in a totally different position. Love it. Yeah.
Michael Frampton: [00:33:40] There's so much like you said, there's so many more variables. And surfing can be, you know, so many more. Yeah, it's I mean, the mountain obviously changes day to day with the snow and stuff, but nowhere as much as every individual wave and ocean conditions. Every time you you pop up. Your feet might be in a slightly different place, especially if you're not surfing that much. Yeah.
Tom Gellie: [00:34:02] And the other thing I must say that I was thinking about, you'd probably ask these questions and, uh, skiing versus surfing experience with other people around, and probably where I'm located in the world. North Narrabeen is maybe not a great starting point for feeling like people are your friends at that break. Luckily, I've gotten to know a lot more in the community, but I'm still very much aware of this. But even so, even elsewhere. That was one thing I wish would be different, because if you go skiing, it just feels a lot friendlier to like, I could be like, you know, the beginner person. I'm not going to look down at them. If they just talk to me. I go, wow, that was really cool. And what are you doing there? Or another good skier that I've never met before. And in in surfing, it just seems people even even on like a really nice morning, there's two people out, like I'm out there and there's another guy out there. Just feels very much like people don't talk to you. And I'm not sure there's probably a whole bunch of reasons, you know, like, this is my time to get away from the family and work, and I don't want to talk to people, you know, other things like this is my wave, all that sort of stuff going on. But I find that that really that frustrates me, actually. And, um, yeah, it was awesome at the wave pool, actually, because I went there with a friend. But then there were, you know, six other strangers I'd never met. And as it gets going, everyone's more supportive and cheering for each other, different levels we're all at. And probably just because everyone there's a wave, another wave coming, there's a respectful line. Even if you're better than me, you're not going to drop in on me because you don't need to. And that part, I just wish there was more of that because, yeah, I'd love to go out in the morning to to just the feel of being out in the surf to be more friendly in general. Do you find that?
Michael Frampton: [00:36:02] Oh, totally. The surf culture is unique in that way. I think it is partly simply because each wave is such a limited resource. So obviously the wave pool takes that out of the equation. But it's also, you know, in the last ten years there's been an influx of surfers. So the old salty dogs that are out there and oh, there's Beckett should have been like this back in the day. That sort of vibe is out there a lot. For some people, it's yeah, I don't want to talk to you because I just want to zone into the ocean and. And who's this guy? Like sort of thing and all of those things. But, you know, have you ever you've heard the advice. Oh, it's just hours in the water. If you want to get better at surfing, you've just got to spend time in the water. Part of that, actually, probably the biggest reason why that's true is that's because you get recognized. Everyone gets to know who you are, then you.
Tom Gellie: [00:36:54] Don't drop in on you.
Michael Frampton: [00:36:55] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Simple as that. Really. They recognize your face because you probably find it every time I go out. There's. These three dudes are always out there and they always get the waves. Well, that's not a coincidence because they've always been out there for hours every day for 20 years, and that's why they get them. Not only do they read that beach really well, everyone knows who they are, and everyone respects the amount of time they've put in the water. Um, and so that's that's a big part of it. I think the wave pools, the driving range for, for surfing. And it's going to change the game, especially for, for, for coaches and stuff, because I also I listened to one of your, uh, podcast episodes when someone else was interviewing you. Um, and the one big thing it highlighted for me is that surf coaching is nowhere near as technical as other sports like the technical. You guys were talking about such detailed technicalities that it's like, man, because because surfing is such a limited resource, we just don't have the luxury of of thinking about our inside edge at the apex of a bottom turn 20 times in a row, like you might do at half a day. Skiing.
Tom Gellie: [00:38:13] Yes, yes, I totally agree. Now. So again, perspective on that. I've taken some really positive things from the surf coaching world into my skiing in terms of keeping things simple and not overcomplicating things. And I'll tell you maybe a story here. There's interviewed this guy Sasha Rearick, and Sasha is the former US ski team coach. And he was sort of around where there's this girl Mikaela Shiffrin and Ted Ligety. So world champions, really great skiers, and he was a really interesting person to interview. And one of the things in this conversation that I took away was his focus now on, uh, constraints based learning. And so the idea with constraints based learning is you try and find and you don't give people the answer. So you don't tell me, Tom, you need to keep your back straighter. You create an environment or a situation where I'm forced into doing that through this experience. I'm going to do that because of how you've set it up for me. You've guided me. You've put me in this, in this position to experience it. And so it's far more powerful because I will discover it and do it as a result of something else. It's there because it's necessary and needed. And I've really taken this sort of tack now in my coaching and looked right into this deeper and, and really believe it's, it's the way you want to do things. And I think a lot of that is going on in surfing because you can't get too Involved, you know. You know, with this, I can I can ski with you next to me. Michael, stop. We can have a conversation on lift. But if you're coaching me, usually you're on the beach and I'm out in the water for 20 minutes, and then you come in so you can kind of get in my ear, and.
Tom Gellie: [00:40:19] And you very much want to do that as a coach. You want to tell people the answers, like just do it while there's certain parts of that's helpful. Really, the coach should be there again as the guide to go. What do I need to change in this experience or the cue to just make them feel it? And that's what I should do. Don't give them the answer. Just like, you know, I've got a six year old son. Same thing. You know, he's probably ready to tie his shoes. And I just, like, I got to let him do it. You know, show him. Let him figure it out. And same with maths. Like I got homework. I just want to go get dinner done and go go to bed. I'll just help you and give you, you know, more of the answers instead of letting the person struggle. It's just how we learn. We need to go through that. And so positives in the surf world, I've taken a lot of like seeing that in action and like they don't get into such detail yet. These people are still achieving mastery and and amazing stuff and great performance. Yeah. So that's that's that's a cool takeaway I've had. Whereas you're probably seeing it from the other end because you're seeing a lot of like generalizations and then you're seeing, wow, they're like talking about like angles of 0.5 degrees, like inside the boot and like how that makes a difference.
Michael Frampton: [00:41:33] And yeah, it's a it's a good perspective. So I'm just trying to think of an example like let's say someone's surfing with the with just pin straight. So instead of telling them to compress a little bit, you might say pretend to surf in a room that's slightly shorter than you are or something like that. Is it an example?
Tom Gellie: [00:41:53] Yeah, that would be an example. I would that because I want them to feel it, not just like just having a mental image.
Michael Frampton: [00:42:02] The presence is such a common, which we sort of touched on before, where people just dip their head forward and feel like they're actually compressed. How would you constraint based?
Tom Gellie: [00:42:12] How would you put it? Yeah. How would you put a constraint on that. So the first thing I mean you've got different things you can change. So. So if you can always try and look for the environment. So obviously tricky with surfing waves again because it's different every day and the tides and all that sort of stuff. But if you can change where they are surfing. So maybe the poo stance is because of yeah, the wave is too steep or something like that and they can't relax or the board they're on is forcing it. So the equipment factors, if you can find those things that then let them discover it more themselves, that would be great. The other thing that I'm thinking of like, because the obvious would be just stand up straight as a, as a board, you know, the other thing would be, do take what you're doing wrong and make it even more wrong, because these people don't realize it's a wrong thing. They're there in their poo stance surfing, and it's currently they're doing that because it feels comfortable right there. They feel safe. They feel good.
Tom Gellie: [00:43:15] So then tell them to do even more of a poo stance and they'll feel something hopefully different and go, oh, it's that. It's more in that direction, like pushing my hips, whatever it is. I thought I was getting lower, but it's back to again, me and my head being low, instead of my hips getting lower and my back staying straighter. That was a that was a really cool thing that I've had a lot of success with. Is, is take the thing that's wrong, don't try and fix it. Make it even more wrong. Have you ever done that with someone like a because most of the time we wouldn't be like, hey, you've got this poo stance, don't do it. Whereas if you say, I want you to do it even more, I want you to have the most ridiculous poo Stance, and then they'll probably come up and they go, wow, yeah, that felt odd and weird. Then they can go, you've got an end of the spectrum now. And it's like, now just go, you can't go any more that way any more. Wrong. Go the other direction. Yeah.
Michael Frampton: [00:44:09] No.
Tom Gellie: [00:44:09] And that's a concept and constraints based learning. It's one of the ones they've shown is really. Yeah. It's really useful.
Michael Frampton: [00:44:15] Like when you let your kid eat as much chocolate cake as they want and then they make themselves sick.
Tom Gellie: [00:44:21] Exactly.
Michael Frampton: [00:44:23] And then they realize, oh, it's actually not good. It's not good for me. I'm only going to have one piece next time.
Tom Gellie: [00:44:27] Yeah, that's that is a concept, I think finding the end ranges, the spectrum of something. And it doesn't have to be movement. It could be anything, like you said, food, feeling hungry versus totally full until you know where those ends are and you really like that's where you learn. You know a lesson is the end ranges. So back to like when I was doing a lot like my main job was working with people with pain problems, chronic pain. They'd go. They'd been to see everyone else in Sydney. No one had an answer for them. Uh, a lot of the time things were people weren't. They got stuck in one part of this spectrum of movement so their back could only move one way, or their knee could only move one way because of an old injury that caused them to stay there, or something. That was scary and it was just about getting them. You know, sometimes they couldn't go the opposite direction. So if you go further into the wrong one, almost like a like pulling a tight rubber band even more, it pulls and then snaps them back out into the into the direction they actually need to go into. Mm.
Michael Frampton: [00:45:35] Yeah, that makes sense I like that.
Tom Gellie: [00:45:37] Gives you more options as a coach right. Because if you're like this is not working, stand up straight back like straighter in your back front foot, you know more weight, that sort of stuff. It's not working. Do the opposite. Do the opposite. I told this story the other day on, um, did a webinar for all the Thredbo ski instructors to kick off the season, and I told them about this moment and this. So, so back in 2014, I just made the Australian demonstration team. And that's like the top instructors in Australia and every country around the world has this kind of selected group to represent the country and show what our technique is about. So here I am and I'm in Canada, and I think I'm pretty hot stuff because I've made this team and I know everything there is to know about skiing. And, you know, people must be looking at me on the lift as I ski down. And, you know, this one particular morning was doing this run where the chairlift runs over the top of it so people can, like, watch you. And I was like, yeah, sweet. I'm, I'm crushing this. And I stop and I turn around and I look up the look up the slope, and, um, there's this guy coming down who is just way better than me.
Tom Gellie: [00:46:45] He's quicker, he's more refined. He's definitely got way more skills than me. And I go, Whoa! I need to find out who this who this guy is. So he comes down and I go over to him and I say, hey, that was really impressive. Skiing. Like, who are you? Like, what are you doing here? And he goes, uh, hello, my name is Fritz. And Fritz is this Austrian ski instructor. I go, I'd love to have some time to, like ski with you if you make that happen. I'd be really grateful. He's like, yeah, sure. I have to work now, but let's catch up. You know, a couple of days time and go for a ski. So a couple of days time we go skiing and we have a fantastic time. And I'm just in awe of this guy because we're skiing these really challenging runs. And he's on like GS skis, which is longer, thinner skis, stiff race skis and, um, be the equivalent of like, you know, a surfer just being able to surf really mushy waves on a high performance board that shouldn't be able to generate speed and do all this stuff. We'd all be sinking and not able to do anything. So he's doing these impressive turns, but particularly the short turn really fast That that I was always never as good at my short turns and I wanted to get better at them.
Tom Gellie: [00:47:55] And so I, so I at the end of this sort of time with him, I say, Fritz, you know, how did you get so good at your short turns? And he sort of mentions this guy in the ski world, this guy Richie Berger, who's like a kind of like a legend, one of the best ski instructors, skiers you'll ever see. Versatile everywhere. It's like I did some training with him. Okay, cool. Anything you did in particular that really made it, like, really helped your short term says. Oh, and I said, and what about for me, like particularly anything you see with me, he goes, Tom, you need to rotate your upper body. And in the ski ski world doing that, what I learned was not was don't do it like that's a wrong thing. You should not do that. So suddenly I'm there confronted with some advice that is completely against everything that I've believed in and has got me to where I'm at. My association would say this is a wrong thing to do, don't do it. And he said, I got to go now, Tom. I'll catch you later. So I'm left there in the middle of this run going, well, jeez. Okay, here's some advice. Totally seems wrong. I've got two options.
Tom Gellie: [00:49:02] I can try it, or I can just keep doing what I'm doing. So luckily I try it for a few runs and it feels different. Feeling some new things I've not felt before, but I wasn't sure if it was the right thing because I couldn't see myself and I'm like, oh, this is going to look wrong. And when I get back to Australia, they're going to say, you can't ski like that. That's not our technique. So I'm conflicted in my mind about this. So I go get my wife and I say, Jenny, can you just video me? I need to see if this is this is really kooky and weird or if it's good. So she says, fine, whatever. It's always sick of videoing me. So I ski down video doing these short turns, rotating, doing the wrong thing. And then I give me the camera, give me the camera, go look at it. And I look at it and I play it back and it does not look like I'm rotating. It doesn't look like I'm doing an error. You know, be like the stance thing. Imagine saying like, you know, Tom, you need to do even more poo stance in your surf stance. Like what? That's the wrong thing though. And so as I'm doing this rotation thing and it's looking better and nothing's looking wrong and so confirms that what Fritz tells me is something I need to go work on.
Tom Gellie: [00:50:08] So then I spent the rest of that season implementing that, playing with it, and it changed my work like world completely, because this thing that everyone says is wrong was suddenly right. And I understood more about like context. And sometimes, just like the timing of something can make something good or bad. There was that in there, and it was like my skill level at the time needed this opposing idea. But it was it was transformative to realize and be way more open minded to these things that you perceive are wrong and and. Yeah, So I'm kind of, like, interested. I wonder what would happen if I went out even tomorrow and did more poo stance in my. Yeah, I know, it's like I'm like, I wonder what happened to you if you do it like, because it's very hard when you're good at something to also like make an error to to like pretend to surf like the person is because there's always a reason they're doing it back again. Like they're doing that because they feel safe. Um, how can you put them in an environment, a situation that gets them to feel something new and discover it on their own?
Michael Frampton: [00:51:18] I think that that's I'm wondering what it's like for skiing, but when it comes to changing someone's stance in surfing, it's quite important to make that stance stronger and more self-aware outside of surfing. So on dry land training, for example.
Tom Gellie: [00:51:36] Totally, totally like the surf skating, that's that was that's definitely helped me. I went to a pump track once and after seeing one of Clayton's videos and him demonstrate. That was really helpful too, when instead of just talking about it, he took someone who wasn't front foot enough on his simulated wave here thing for the skate surf skate. And he fixed him and I went, okay, cool, I don't have that ball, but I can go to a pump track, went to a pump track, tried it on the surf skate, got a new feeling to simulate a dry land. Oh, that's where I need to be. Back to the front foot kind of position and and like still flexed in, in my joints but more upright in my upper body. Not hunched over. Yeah. Those simulation things that are unreal, aren't they?
Michael Frampton: [00:52:25] Oh, yeah. And even before you get into skating, like if you're trying to coach someone to be more on the front foot with a with a better stance, their body just might not have much self awareness or strength in that position. Full stop. So no amount of coaching is is going to allow them to get there unless they can stand in front of a mirror and do it first. Yeah, yeah. Like with skiing, you find that as well.
Tom Gellie: [00:52:51] Oh, massively. And I'll take this from this guy, Thomas Meyers. He's sort of big in the body work world. Talks about fascia like connectivity of the whole body. And he talks about yeah anatomy trains. Yeah yeah he talks about cake. So we've got IQ intelligence sort of rating or IQ is like kinesthetic intelligence. So your body intelligence. So many people like the people who pick up sports fast like your friend. And he's like try surfing and just picks it up straight away. He's probably got a very high level of KQ. Whereas, you know, the one who doesn't grew up playing video games didn't move a lot just for whatever reason. You can build that. You can improve your kinesthetic intelligence, which is what you're talking about going and doing exercises, going to the gym, doing movements in front of a camera, in front of a mirror to to realize, like, I'm doing this, but it's not what it what I want it to look like. Oh, I need to feel this muscle stretch instead of that one. That's huge. And that's a big part of actually big picture skiing. I have a lot of videos on movement, and I actually think that body awareness trumps strength massively, massively.
Tom Gellie: [00:54:05] Like take kids, for example. There's kids who can, you know, seven, eight years old, make turns better than a lot of adults, and they're not very strong. They haven't gone to the gym, done nothing like that. But they've spent a bunch of time feeling into their body. And when you're younger, if you're moving a lot, you tend to have a high level of kinesthetic intelligence. And so I think a lot of people go down the wrong road of like building strength instead of building body awareness first. Yeah. So having such a good example of that, like some of the best surfers I've seen look like skinny, you know, like scarecrow people like. So, you know, there's not much. But then they can pull these amazing turns through, just positioning their body in the right way and timing things at the right time. So that part absolutely. The way I see it is this body awareness people. People need to work on it and it's very easy to do. You've just got to start doing it.
Michael Frampton: [00:55:03] And yeah, no, I totally agree with that. In any major advance, advancements I've made is in body awareness and strength, and body awareness is so interwoven anyway. Like some people, totally. Yes. Some people would argue that there isn't a difference, especially when you look at someone who's like, what's that guy? Have you seen the guy, Anatoli, doing all the gym? Like he goes into a gym and he just out deadlifts everyone and he's dressed as a janitor. You know, he's just.
Tom Gellie: [00:55:33] I'm not saying that, but I can imagine what that would. Yeah. Surprising everybody.
Michael Frampton: [00:55:37] Yes. Yeah. Just has great body weight to strength ratio because a big can mean strong. But you don't have to be big to be strong. Bodybuilders are big because they're training to be big, not training to be strong. You look at a gymnast who's not there, very muscular, but they're not big. They're just they have great posture, they have great body awareness. And that's that's why they're strong. Not because they're huge.
Tom Gellie: [00:56:05] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I mean. Like if you get the body awareness right and then you start using your body, you just surfing more and you can then tip the board over more and you can do these different maneuvers which require you to flex and bend, but with good awareness. Then like as soon as the joints bend and move, like you're stimulating muscles, they're going to have to grow stronger to deal with the the situations you're putting them in. Same with gymnastics. It's not a lot of that, you know, hanging off of bars, flipping, Um, you know, jumping off things that requires they don't need external weights with things, whereas I just see it like like when people just generally do squats that like. And then, you know, if they don't have stuffs that are right in terms of body awareness, using the joints really well, then they can fix problems by being stronger, using strength to get out of certain situations instead of finesse and awareness. That's that's probably like why I'm saying that's why I think that trumps it. And then all you just need to do is go find an activity which forces you to do more and more and more of it. Well, then you can add weights on top of it. Go for it. But but you know, get the foundation right. Like a good house. Don't don't fix a falling down house by slamming more hard bits of wood all around it and drilling more screws in and everything like fix it all, make it neat and working, and then you can be more efficient in the structure.
Michael Frampton: [00:57:36] It seems like good technique closely related to just good gate.
Tom Gellie: [00:57:40] Yeah, absolutely. That was yeah, yeah, I've learned a ton from gate, actually. There's this guy and people should look up this book. It's called what the Foot? One of the best books about if you want to learn about your own body and and the gait cycle and how that's connected. It's written by a guy named Gary Ward. And I read this book after hearing Gary speak on this podcast about the foot and everything, because I was riding to the foot and skiing. Wanted to find experts in you more. So read this book and then, like, found every single video I could find on the internet at the time that this guy had produced, or someone had interviewed him and just soaked up every bit of information because he was in the UK. I'm in the Australia side on the Australian side of the world, so I didn't have access to him and learned so much stuff and started piecing together like, like walking is the most natural thing, like we do And what Gary talks about is that basically he breaks down. Most people break it down to the gait cycle into six different phases. So, you know, heel strike. Transition phase shift. Phase propulsion phase swing.
Tom Gellie: [00:58:48] Phase five. Sorry. Get that wrong. And in each of these phases and through all this phase. So when you put your left foot down and the right, and by the time the left foot comes down again, you go through every single possible joint range of motion movement in all planes available in that joint in between the left foot going down and then the left foot coming down again. And so he's mapped. This is the most incredible thing about actually, he's mapped every single joint in the body from the big toe to the talus, hip, spine, scapula, wrists, everything, the neck and how it heals. Strike on the left foot. You know, your your chain reaction. Ankle. Yeah. Your ankle should be dorsiflexing and inverting the big toe should be extending the knee joint should be internally rotating and extending the hip joint should be flexing and externally rotating like. And so you've given this map and through the courses he does you go through like getting this into your brain. And so I've lost a bit of it now. But I used to have this map so I could watch someone come in. They'd come into my studio to get, you know, treated for the for their knees or something.
Tom Gellie: [00:59:59] I'd watched them and I'd film them and I'd put together and I'd go, right, left heel strike! The knee is doing not the right thing. It should at this moment in terms of his perfect model of of gait. So there's your entrance into fixing that person's like possible or it's an entrance point. And maybe it's like they've come with knee pain, but you watch that the neck is shifting or rotating the wrong way when it should be going, you know, the other way. And so you stop talking about that knee and you go, what happened to your head? Yeah. Oh, nothing. 20 years ago. Like fell off a cliff and nearly died. But it's fine now. Like I've no problems, you know? Yes, you do, because your head, like, doesn't get over your left foot when it should. It needs to. And this could be why your knee is is stuffed. Because you're just protecting your head or whatever it is. Anyway, yeah, the gait cycle is amazing like that. That helped me understand how everything's connected. And then look for patterns of up and down the chain to try and figure something out.
Michael Frampton: [01:01:02] Sounds very similar to Gary Gray's work.
Tom Gellie: [01:01:05] Yeah. Similar. Similar. That's funny. Both Gary's. But I would also say very, very different. Like, really like you should get the book. What? The foot. It'll. Yeah. Let me know. It's, uh, it's that in terms of, like, transformative things and people that have influenced and helped my life, that is one I would when I'm, you know, at the end of my life, thanking people. He'll be one of them Mhm. A change in my life.
Michael Frampton: [01:01:31] Yeah. Yeah I definitely check him out for sure. Yeah. Oh man. It's just coming up to the hour. We could just keep talking. That went fast. I got to go pick up my. I got to go pick my kids up so. But we should. We could do another one at some point, though. But. And thank you so much for your time.
Tom Gellie: [01:01:44] Oh, thank you for. Yeah. Bringing me on. I know I'm not a pro surfer or surf coach, but hopefully some different perspective helped. Just like surfing has helped. My skiing certainly helped my coaching, my skiing as well. Like massively looking for different ideas on how to approach the same thing. Yeah.
Michael Frampton: [01:02:02] Yeah, we needed an hour. People know. What's your website?
Tom Gellie: [01:02:05] Big picture scheme. Com so if you just search big picture skiing there's a podcast, there's a YouTube channel, the Instagram as well. All the same things. Check me out there. First a lot of people go through the social media route to find out who I am. And then if you're really interested, all the deep dive videos on skiing are on on the Big Picture skiing app and website.
Michael Frampton: [01:02:24] Okay, awesome. Tom. Thank you.
Tom Gellie: [01:02:26] Thank you very much, Michael, for the time.
Michael Frampton: [01:02:29] All right, dude, thanks for that. Thank you for tuning in to the Surf Mastery Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Also, the best way that you can help support and grow the show is to subscribe, rate, and review on whatever app you're using, be it Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and of course, we are now on YouTube, so you can watch the video version of this podcast on YouTube. Be sure to check that out. Also, go to Surf Mastery Comm for more surfing tips via the blog. You can also book in a personal online surf coaching session with me, also at Surf mastery.com. There are two free downloadable PDFs, one with the five best tips from this show, and one the five best exercises to improve your surfing. So go to Surf mastery.com on the homepage. There you'll see them. Until next time, keep surfing.
101 Matt Grainger - Choosing Boards and Breaking Surfing Rules
Aug 27, 2024
In this episode, Michael Frampton catches up with renowned surfer and coach Matt Grainger to talk about the highs and lows of surfing, the challenges of big waves, and the innovations in the sport. Matt shares his experiences with heavy waves, gnarly wipeouts, and the current state of surfing on the Sydney Northern Beaches. The discussion dives into the recent swells, the changing conditions, and how they impact surfers of all levels.
Matt also discusses his latest project, the "Surfer's Compass" app, a comprehensive guide for surfers to improve their techniques, mindset, and fitness. He shares the inspiration behind the app, the process of its development, and the exciting features that it will offer.
Episode Highlights:
Matt's Recent Surf Trip to Indonesia: Matt shares the story of his recent trip to Indonesia, where he suffered a significant head injury after a day of surfing at Macaronis. He details the moment the injury occurred, the aftermath, and the crucial steps taken to avoid infection.
The Importance of Surf Safety: Despite years of experience, Matt explains how ego and overconfidence led to a dangerous situation. He emphasizes the importance of wearing a helmet in heavy conditions and the risks of surfing over shallow reefs.
Injury Management and Recovery: Matt provides valuable insights into managing injuries in remote locations, including the use of bottled water, antibiotics, and proper wound care to prevent infections from coral cuts.
Mobility and Strength Training for Surfers: As a coach, Matt discusses the significance of maintaining mobility and strength as surfers age. He highlights the role of a balanced training program in injury prevention and long-term surfing performance.
Mindset and Longevity in Surfing: Matt touches on the importance of a positive mindset, quoting Bruce Lee on the power of words and how they influence our physical and mental well-being. He encourages surfers to stay active, eat well, and maintain a youthful outlook to continue enjoying the sport well into their later years..
Surf Culture Evolution: The changes in surfing culture, including the influx of new surfers and the impact on traditional breaks.
"Surfer's Compass" App: Insight into Matt’s development of this app, aimed at improving surfing techniques, fitness, and mental strategies.
[00:00:00] Matt Grainger: I think so. You look at all the surfers now. It's all legs. Hardly any upper body. Only back and legs. You don't want any chest, and you don't want to overload the shoulders as well in your rotator cuff. Exercises are really good. So light weights on the shoulders, nothing heavy. So you can still get that mobility in your padel. And you've got the power for your back for your paddle. So a lot of the strength training is like just Olympic rings, pull ups, maybe some skin. The cat. Um, um, dumbbell pull ups as well off the bench, all that kind of stuff. And then a lot of, a lot of, um, obviously squats with the.
[00:00:40] Michael Frampton: Back to the Surf Mastery podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and the ethos of this show is education and inspiration for better surfing and a better surfing life. And Matt Grainger, today's guest, not only was a huge part in the inspiration for the birth of this show, but he epitomizes that ethos as well. He is in his mid 50s now, and he's still out there surfing a ton and stays fit and healthy for surfing, and also teaches others to be better surfers and better people through better surfing mindset, health and fitness, etc. Matt is just a pure inspiration in the surfing world and just an absolute frother and a rips. He rips. He's an incredible surfer and stoked to get him back on the show. And like I said, he first appeared back in episode number one. He's. This will be his fourth appearance. Uh, he also appeared in episode 30 and episode 55 as well. And, uh, without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation. My fourth conversation on this podcast with Matt Grainger from Manly Surf School. How did it happen? Was it just a freak random thing, or was it a lapse in concentration or what?
[00:02:07] Matt Grainger: Yeah, it was a bit of the ego took over and ego took over. Um, we'd had. Every day was the best day ever. We had this the first swell in June. And, um, this one day just got bigger and bigger, and it had a lot of south in it. There was two swells. It was like a south swell and a bit of south west as well. So you could get a chip in, you could chip in from behind, behind the tower, and you could backdoor where you'd usually take off. So you'd get like more barrel time. And I was riding this magic six zero Psi Pro, one that I've had for about a year. Felt unreal under my feet. Been riding it for days straight. And then, um, this guy Sean came out from South Africa. He rocked up on a boat. Him and I started paddling up the reef and just trading wave after wave and making him. So just making these unbelievable tubes and no one came up there because, you know, it was pretty gnarly. So if you fell, it was like two foot deep and it was like an eight foot swell. So when Max, probably 8 to 10, you probably saw footage of Nathan Florence. I don't know if you saw some of the footage of him and he's it was like 10 to 12 foot hits that day, whereas Max doesn't get bigger, it just gets thicker. So it's probably 6 to 8 foot, but really thick, like a chokes kind of way. You get this, you can make this really nice drop and then come in with speed.
[00:03:28] Matt Grainger: And just if you made it, you're fine. But if you didn't make it, that's what happened. So after five hours, I actually wasn't even tired. I was after like five hours, I was just just getting cocky and I probably should have gone in. It was more like one more, one more. And Shaun and I were trying to outdo each other, and he he actually snapped his board, his board on his last wave, and I snapped my head, but I took off, made. It made. The drop. Drop was on the foam ball. As I was pumping on the foam ball, the wave turned the corner. So kind of that south west angle of the way though, turned a massive corner. So I've just got catapulted on the foam ball and I got thrown out head first, and that's as soon as my head landed, the lip hit the back of my neck and just drove me straight into the reef, like, instantly. It was only like two foot deep. It was low tide and I just it was just like, bang. I was like, no, I got a bit on here. And then I went into worry, went into warrior mode. You know, when you when I'd said us the way, way my eyes. Okay. It's actually got a cut there as well. So I've got to cut. I got cut either side. I got cuts either side of the nose down here on the bottom of the nose as well on this eye.
[00:04:43] Matt Grainger: And obviously here I have about 25 stitches here, five stitches here. And I just went I knew the session was over and I just paddled back. Everyone was like, we'll get a boat. Everyone's screaming, get a boat, get a boat! That's it. I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. Getting myself back almost on my own. You know, like one guy got scared. Good on ya. Um, this guy Hans from America. He goes, good on you, tough guy. I'm like, nah, I've got this, I got this. Anyway. So I went back and got on the pontoon and just started pouring bottled water over my head. And then I got the boat back to Max and then looked for Shaz, and she was already stitching up my brother. He had a little cut on his back. So. And then someone said,, Matt's looking for you. Cut his head and neck. And she thought,, if he's asking for something, he's in a bad way. So then she saw my head and she thought I'd cracked. I'd actually, like, fractured my skull, but it was actually bits of coral coming out of my head. .Far out. So she pulled that, pulled the bits of coral out. He got some local, which was good. We'll just put it in the carts and then pulling bits of coral out the tweezers, and then got a toothbrush for an hour and just scrubbing it. That was the gnarly part. I just had to.
[00:06:01] Michael Frampton: Scrubbing and all this peroxide or iodine or something. Yeah.
[00:06:04] Matt Grainger: With, um. Yeah. Just with, um. Yeah. Like light alcohol. Yeah. Just. And just so you don't kill the flesh too much. Like, not too gnarly. Um, but just getting it all out, and that's. I reckon that saved me for sure. And then obviously took about two hours to stitch up, which was gnarly. And I was just doing I've been doing a lot of breath training like coaching, apnea training. And I saw resonance breathing, which is like a second inhale six second exhale.
. So just going into that just and that helped big time. That was like a three hour ordeal which could have been a long time. Felt like a long time. But it wasn't as long as I thought. And then she put like a face mask over it so I couldn't see. And then, um, yeah, The rest is history. And then I surfed the next day., you did not. Yeah I know. He taped it up. I just said, I'll get two. I'll get one. Wait, I'll get one wave. And I did some tests, like I was jumping on one leg to see if I had concussion and then, no, I'm not well in the head anyway, uh, and then I came. I wore a helmet, of course, and then I didn't surf for after that day. I didn't surf for three and a half days. And then after that I was good to go because I was on.
[00:07:21] Matt Grainger: I was having, uh, four courses of antibiotics. I four, four tablets of antibiotics every day, washing it with, um, fresh water. And we're getting she was breaking up antibiotics and putting it inside the cup as well. Yeah. And she and she left a little bit of one of the gnarly cuts. Didn't do it too tight. So bits of coral would still come out if it did. There's still little bits popping out, far out. But yeah. So I'm wearing a helmet from now on when it's gnarly like that. So I went to G-land. After that we had another swell at Max and Surf Greenbush, but I had one of those soft shell helmets that Tommy Scott wears. Yeah. By, um, DMC. It's like a rugby helmet. Yeah, yeah, but they're nice and light, but they're, um. Yeah. So that that felt good. And then I wore it in g-land every surf even because I didn't want to get hit and break the cuts open anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got the stitches out after six days and they healed well. Yeah. So wow. But from now on I'm going to. If it's gnarly and low tide and heavy, I'll be wearing a helmet. Yeah. No. Fair enough. But I was lucky I didn't get concussion and brain damage or lose an eye or nose or whatever. Yeah., yeah.
[00:08:32] Michael Frampton: And I mean, and any sort of coral cut infection is such a huge risk, right?
[00:08:38] Matt Grainger: I reckon like, even there was a girl, it was actually a girl out in the water. She. Her name's Kat. She does immense heavy new for about six months with a with harm. So her partner and they they had a long boat with um with a solar panel on top and just go around the islands and she, she had a cut on her foot. She went to seek a cut and just had a shower. So that got that sort of told. And she told me this story like a week before. And then she got this, this flesh eating, um, microbe in her foot. And she basically went delirious and had to go to she went to Padang and their hospital was too dirty and gnarly. So the hands got her out of there, carried her onto the fast ferry, then went to Jakarta and she had like three skin grafts and then back to LA. Yeah, just from that. So that straight away I was like, I'm not getting my head touching any, any, um, any shower water. So I was just it sounds very first world, but I was just every time I wash my head, I was just with bottled water. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good tip for people out there. yeah. Yeah. Look after your carts. Yeah. Always look after my carts. Even feet. You know, I went to Chofu. First time I went to Chofu in 2000. A tiny little cuts on my feet. And it was the last day. And I was like, last day, who cares? And then I got home and I got stacked. I couldn't walk. I went to my. I went to my glands. And straight away I was on antibiotics and prednisone and it went away. But that was nasty. So it taught me a good lesson. Yeah. So get on, get on to your rep cards quickly people when you go to the tropics.
[00:10:17] Michael Frampton: Yeah. You got to clean them eh. I remember I touched the reef in Arugam Bay in Sri Lanka once. Like just got this tiny little graze. Thought nothing of it. Just put like a little bit of iodine cream on it. That's all I did. And then two days later, it's just like 50 cent welt that's throbbing.
[00:10:33] Matt Grainger: And I had to hit.
[00:10:35] Michael Frampton: Yeah. Had to get some antibiotics. So should have just scrubbed it out with a toothbrush and done the right thing at the time. But it was such a small cut, you thought nothing of it. But they must have just been little bits of coral in there or something.
[00:10:47] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah, that was one of the ones where the feeder chirps. Tiny little, like little nicks. Yeah. So, yeah, to get that tape. Yeah. So the tip from Shaz. Doctor. Shaz, my partner. Get. Take her. I always have, like, a spare toothbrush. That's clean. You can't even get it from that. If you get it from the hotel. But you never brush your teeth with it, so it's totally clean. And just scrub it. Scrub it. Um, use the little wipes. The the iodine alcohol wipes. So you do one offs and not nothing else dirty. And then just keep checking it. Yeah. And there's that. There's that tayo gin. That's pretty good from Indo. You know that Chinese, that red bottle. That's always cool. That Chinese. It's called tayo gin or the ayam. They don't use cream. She said use because it just festers in the tropics. Use the powder. The powder? Yeah. The powders of the guy. Yeah. Okay. So that's a go and then cover them up. Yeah. If you do your feet too. I always wear shoes. People give me heaps of crap in Indo because I'm always wearing. If I've got cuts, I'll put shoes on because you're walking around. You get dirt in the cuts. Yeah. So it's important if we always forget especially. Yeah. You're like, oh nah, I'll be right. Or, you know, you see so many guys just get smashed and don't even do anything. Yeah.
[00:12:03] Michael Frampton:yeah. It's not worth the risk. I used to you're still out charging, catching heaps of waves.
[00:12:07] Matt Grainger: Yeah, still surfing a lot. Um, pretty much surf every day. Sometimes twice. Um, got the gym. Surfer's gym. Which is good. That keeps me fit and healthy. They working on the mobility that you taught me years ago, and. Yeah, just building on that. I think that's a big key is mobility. As we get older and even the younger athletes that we coach too. I've got some pros that train at our gym and and we've got them on a mobility program. Whereas strength training and I found lately like in the last few years, like having the ability and also the strength training is huge just for reducing, reducing injury, keeping strong. Like I'm 55 this month. I don't even talk about your age too. It's really important what you say out of your mouth. You know there's a, there's a quote by Bruce Lee is like be careful what you say with your words because that's why it's called spells and spelling. Like you're saying, you hear heaps of guys walk around and go, I'm done. I'm old, I'm an old man and all this. And you're like, hey, mate. Like, no, it's all relative. Like it's it's you know what? It's time. Really anyway. You know, like just this thing we've made up, but, you know, there's biological age. And if you keep yourself fit and healthy and moving and eat well, sleep well. You can keep keep rocking till you're in your 80s, I reckon.
[00:13:29] Michael Frampton: Yeah, man, I was just reading. Listening to a book, actually, about all of that. And this Harvard professor did an experiment where she got a bunch of 80 year old men, and she put them in a house where everything in the house was as if it was 30 years ago, and they were only allowed. So the TV programs, the books, the furniture, and they were only allowed to talk, talk about things as if it was 30 years ago in the present. And within a few days, their eyesight improved. Health, like blood pressure, improved everything just by just like placebo. Like extreme placebo effect. Wow.
[00:14:11] Matt Grainger: That's awesome. Yeah, it's rare to get that book.
[00:14:14] Michael Frampton: It's a rare book. I'll. I'll forward it to you and I'll put it in the show notes for listeners, too. I think it's called the mind body Connection or something. I'll put it in the show notes and I'll send it to you.
[00:14:23] Matt Grainger: And even when I was at, um, not trying to name drop here, but when I was at Nazaré, I came in, I totally led back to the harbor because he broke down. It's quite funny. Like it was a big day. Like 60 foot. Perfect. Nazaré. And I was with Lucas Pereira, who's from Mavericks, who trains with me. He was towing with me on that. We were just shifting partners all day. And then I said, you lead like I don't even know lead any way from then. And I said, you make leads out to sea doing nothing. We should go check on him. And he's like, yeah, right. So we hammered out the lead and he goes, yeah, I ran out of fuel, guys. And you're like, why? He goes, I was having too much fun. You know, every time the beeper light came on the warning signal that was low on fuel, I just turned it off. And because it was a really good day and it was a really good Nazaré, like, clean 60 foot faces and whatnot. Anyway, so I, we hooked up my ski to his ski and towed him back to the harbor. And we got back to the, um, got back to the wharf, and I was just chatting to him about how we've got a gym and I've been following what he does working XPT programs, and I do a lot of breathwork, but I really like breathwork.
[00:15:36] Matt Grainger: And and I said, yeah, yeah, we don't we don't talk about age, you know, in our gym because what you said the word, don't you ever say that word in front of me again. And he got really gnarly. And I was like, okay, man, settle down. And um, so it's there's a lot of truth to it. Hey, I see, like, Chaz is, um, she's my wife. She's over 60, and she's getting better because she only started 20 years. And there's guys at the beaches that used to rip when they were 20, and they've given up at 50, or probably given up at 50 because it's in their mindset., my knees and stuff and my back stuff. And you're like, well, what do you do about it? Do you um, do you do any mobility or you know, what are you eating? What are you how are you sleeping? Or you know, I don't know. They're like, I don't know, you just like, okay. So yeah, it's funny isn't it? And I think I think we were lucky our age like we've, we've been introduced to a lot of stuff. And if you're curious about it, which you are and I am, there's so much stuff you can learn going down that rabbit holes.
[00:16:41] Michael Frampton: yeah. It's never ending. Kind of.
[00:16:42] Matt Grainger: Ten. The crew ten years before us, probably a lot of them missed out on that eating poor food, poor movement. Um, yeah, I think it's good. I've got the hoop. I've had the hoop for, like, uh, probably five years now. I find that's really good because I'm. I'm really diligent about my sleep. It can be gnarly some days, and it gives you a bad sleep score. You've got to kind of let that go, and not even your day is ruined. Because I know some athletes who will like that, and they're like, I had to get rid of it because it said I had a bad sleep score and I'd have a bad day. I'm like, no, no, you got to get past that. But sleep is huge. Hey, like and probably read that book by Matthew Walker that was, you know, everyone knew how important sleep was. You know, we cure cancer and all sorts of ailments. Balance. Yeah. So yeah, they'll always I try to have a little nap in the Arvo if I get time. Yeah. Try to have a nap every Arvo. And I think it's good to have a nap if I have the luxury, because you're just not talking. You're not thinking. You're just having a little break from the world and then back into it. Have a training session at the gym with the crew and then dinner in bed again. So that's my little routine. Yeah. And not being and not used to have to always wake up super early or to plan that I ought to be up early and out there for stuff. But if now if the waves aren't that good, I'm not going to get up early just to punish myself for the early just for the sake of being the first guy out there. So now, because I've found on the sleep on your sleep scores, when you do actually sleep that extra hour in the morning. Yeah. You get a lot of benefits. It's crazy. And if you do go to bed early. Yeah. Mm.
[00:18:18] Michael Frampton: Does does is surfing the main motivator for you to stay fit and healthy?
[00:18:23] Matt Grainger: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Like I couldn't give a stuff like what I look like. I just want to actually be able to catch waves and still be able to surf. My brother and I just went to Macaronis together and we were both chatting that we probably surf better now than we were in our mid 20s, just because the boards are better. We've got more knowledge and we've kept our bodies good. Yeah. Yeah. So we've had no we've had no serious accidents though which is lucky. you know obviously head knocks and all that kind of stuff but nothing like haven't broken any major bones like bony broken hands and a few things like that, but not, you know, haven't broken a femur or anything, you know. So some guys obviously are disadvantaged if they have a major injury but haven't had any major injuries. And then now I've realized I used to always think when I was have had a niggle like a, like a niggling hip or, you know, you had to go to the chiropractor and you had to do this, you had to do and now you can kind of push through it and move through it.
[00:19:24] Matt Grainger: I found that like. And if it's really serious, obviously go and see a physician, which is good. and you can get a really good massage or just to break that tissue down. But I found now you can move through pain and throughout the whole day like not, you know, everyone thinks, I've got to train for an hour and that's it. So I don't do it. You know, you can do little snacks like ten minutes here, you know, ten minutes in the morning, another ten minutes at lunchtime, another two minutes here, and then another two minutes and eventually kind of work through it. I remember when we were working together, you were pretty onto that early in the early days. Good diets. I love I like got into my fasting, which is good pretty much two meals a day. Love the bone broth. I'm doing a coffee, obviously. Black coffee, a little bit of coconut oil. So, yeah, that's just all these little hacks that we're learning. Just helping along the way, I reckon.
[00:20:21] Michael Frampton: Yeah, but you've got that motivation. You want to keep surfing, you want to keep going to Indo and that's what. Yeah. That's what get you. Okay. No I'm not going to have that donut. I'm going to and I'm going to go to bed early because I want to I want to go and get barreled at Indo like.
[00:20:36] Matt Grainger: no, it's such a good motivator. Yeah. And and it's, it keeps you young. Yeah. It keeps you young and young in the head too. And looking at boards that, you know, I'm still riding shore boards and my short boards like a five, five, nine. And I've got A53 Bobby quad that I ride in the wave pool. Yeah. So I can still ride short boards. yeah. And just having that and and the boards have gotten so good. Now, you know, just the rockers and the things all the shapers. And I remember Mike, Michael Ho was talking with his son Mason. I saw in an interview that he said, oh, dad, why do you think you're ripping so much now? And he goes to the boards and Michael's like, doesn't care. You know, he just he doesn't have Instagram or Facebook. He's just surfing and I've I've seen Coco out in the water when she's in Indo or here and she said, yeah pops. Just he just the proper. So he's, he's, he's not thinking about how he's 60 and he's charging you know. Yeah he's right. He's got, he's got new blades and getting tubed out back door and ripping on the backside at Alma-Ata and things like that. But yeah, that's the motivation is surfing. Yeah. And it's, it's such a fun sport. And I just always say to people, it's a puzzle.
[00:21:51] Matt Grainger: You know, you every time you go for a surf, you're trying to work out that puzzle. It doesn't matter if it's one foot onshore or it's 20 foot bommies or it's crazy tubes in Indo, you're still trying to figure out how you're going to paddle in. How are you going to get to your feet? How are you going to generate speed? Is it a straight down drop? Is it a knifing drop? Am I going to get in my front foot early? All these little things that just come into play from all those years of experience, and you're trying to work out that puzzle, and then it's one foot. You just want to go out and do one big turn on a one footer and you're happy. So that's what keeps me motivated. Some days, even if it's crap, I'll still go out for like three waves and just I'll get my three waves and go to work and train. And I've got the training to, I've got rid of the cardio. So I'm sort of not really doing the cardio so much now. It's just strength and movement because if you do a good movement flow, you can get good cardio from that anyway. Yeah, I forgot my heart rate monitor and you're actually getting flexi, whereas you don't want to get stiff and then just doing the right strength training.
[00:22:53] Matt Grainger: So you look at all the surfers now it's all legs, hardly any upper body, only back and legs. You don't want any chest and you don't want to overload the shoulders as well in your you know, the rotator cuff exercises are really good. So light weights on the shoulders, nothing heavy. So you can still get that mobility in your paddle. And you've got the power through your back for your paddle. So a lot of the strength training is like just Olympic rings, pull ups, maybe some skin. The cat. yeah. dumbbell pull ups as well, off the bench, all that kind of stuff. And then a lot of, a lot of,, obviously squats with the barbell, goblet squats, front squats, split squats, all that kind of stuff. It's super important, I reckon. So getting that mobility and doing the weights and getting that connection and feeling when you're doing the weight, not just doing it for the sake of it, like doing those reps and really thinking about that rep and just getting your body in those positions that you could do in the water on land. So when you go out there like a martial artist, you're you're ready to go. You've drilled it so many times it becomes second nature. Yeah.
[00:24:01] Michael Frampton: No, strength training is so good. It's also for like strength training gives you it increases your body awareness actually, and just increases your maintains your bone density. And it's just it's so helpful. And if you're doing it do upper body. Lower body. It's it's about as doesn't get any more hard of a cardio workout than doing like a strength training circuit if you want to, you know, get the heart rate up.
[00:24:26] Matt Grainger: What sort of work? What sort of stuff are you doing these days, like in your regime?
[00:24:30] Michael Frampton:. Mine's so I had I've got,, I had ACL surgery in my early 20s and it's now almost, you know, bone on bone, basically. So a lot of my, a lot of my training is just keeping on top of that. so like, slow moving, heavy stuff with,, you know, have you seen the knees over toes guy?
[00:24:55] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah. He's awesome.
[00:24:56] Michael Frampton: Hey, backwards walking on the treadmill and just. Yeah, following some of his stuff. Uh, and just to keep the legs strong. Because it's interesting. Because they say it's bone on bone, right? And it can get like that, but your cartilage is gone. Your cartilage doesn't really come back. But there is scar tissue forms where the cartilage was. As long as that scar tissue is there, you're fine. If you do too much stuff and that scar tissue wears away. So if you do too much volume and you don't allow that scar tissue to to heal and reform and the fluids to come back, then it can be bone on bone, you get a real sore joint. But so now, as long as I keep the volume of what I'm doing on the knee, it's fine. You can actually you can actually go.
[00:25:39] Matt Grainger: How many reps?
[00:25:41] Michael Frampton: Actually, I would just sort of more like six reps. Only a couple of sets. But you know, because I've got a history of strength training. I know the form. I'm strong, I know what to do. But a backwards walking on the treadmill and some and lots of balance work as well, because it's actually those small little twitching movements in the joint that do the most damage. So if your balance is on point and your joint is nice and stable, then it's one of the big things as well. So keeping the balance, like standing on one leg with your eyes closed. Little things like that. Yeah I do.
[00:26:16] Matt Grainger: I love the pendulum jumps with the, you know, the pendulum jump. So it's a one legged jump. Yeah. and we'll do that. More eyes closed as well. Yeah. When I coach a lot of the athletes as well, like before, they were competing, like, I'd say, like they'll do five jumps, eyes open, and then the last five closed. And it helps for that body awareness, you know, for late drops and. yeah, no big drops out of the lip and being aware of where their body is. Yeah. Yeah. And I even did it when I crack my head to check if I had concussion, I was like, yes, I'm fine. You know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a doctor. But if you can jump one legged with your eyes closed, you pretty much. And you're fine. You don't have concussion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:03] Michael Frampton: No, I do a bit of sprinting. Sprinting as well. Sprinting is really good for you. So I do a bit of that and I still do like the bodyweight gymnastics style strength training as well. Still doing that. Following a guy called, uh, Nardi. Oh, man, I can't even pronounce his name. Nardi Orejuela or I can't remember how to pronounce it, but it's functional performance training. He's doing a lot of really unique stuff. He's worth a follow. He's pretty out there with some of what he says, but he's also got some really interesting tips. A lot of, you know, not necessarily heavy weights, but functional, functional stuff. Just he's worth a follow.
[00:27:39] Matt Grainger: Cool. yeah.
[00:27:40] Michael Frampton: And just keeping on top of the diet, diet and sleep, man, that's like you mentioned, man. Just keeping a clean diet, getting enough sleep and giving a good balance of rest and stress.
[00:27:49] Matt Grainger: Because, yeah, life can get stressful, but it's only what you make it really like. But yeah, if you if you sleep well, if you have a good sleep, you can conquer anything. Really. Hey, I'll find two. The shoulders are important. Like the rotator cuff muscles. Important to keep that on top of that. Just like maintenance work like prehab, like lightweights, like 10% of your body weight, just getting in all those different angles because you do you can, you know, when you're, you know, those days when you're paddling super hard trying to make that wave where it's hollow, you're going to put a lot of stress on the shoulder joint. And I've had seen so many mates like you look at you got to look at your mates who had surgeries, you know what I mean? Like, it's always so, shoulders, knees and hips if you look after those. And spine pretty much ahead of the game. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:40] Michael Frampton: Hanging dude. Hanging for your shoulders. Really good.
[00:28:45] Matt Grainger: Just hanging. Awesome.
[00:28:46] Michael Frampton: Active and passive. Hanging. And, I mean, I'm lucky. When I was living in the US, I did. I did three different DNS courses., yeah.
[00:28:55] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember you doing that. Yeah.
[00:28:57] Michael Frampton: And so I do a lot of that sort of rehab style training still. And that's really good for shoulders and and core that helps keep my shoulders in check.
[00:29:07] Matt Grainger: I remember, I remember you got injured and I did the Ido portal course. Yes, I remember you did. Yeah, I think you did your hamstring right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And I was a day before and he said, Matti, can you do this? And I went, yeah. And did a whole week with it.
[00:29:22] Michael Frampton: Yeah. That's right.
[00:29:23] Matt Grainger: Yeah. He was massive. It was massive on hanging. Yeah. And you know, the ring and the rings too. Yeah. And I find the rings or rings are better for a surfer too. Like doing chin ups, pull ups on a ring because you get that nice. Like you get that movement in the shoulder joint where it's just a straight bar. You don't really get that movement because we actually reach out and rotate our shoulder as we paddle. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was it was pretty. It was an interesting guy. Cool guy. Full on. Yeah. He is. Yeah. But yeah, I learned a lot. Yeah.
[00:29:59] Michael Frampton: cool. Are you still doing ice baths?
[00:30:01] Matt Grainger: Still doing that.
[00:30:02] Michael Frampton: Yeah.
[00:30:03] Matt Grainger: And our boss. And so on. Got an ice bath in the backyard and a sauna, which is lucky. And we got two at the gym now. We got two saunas and two ice baths. Wow. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Everyone loves them. Yeah. Everyone's created a little community there. Yeah, yeah. It's awesome.
[00:30:21] Michael Frampton: What about LA? Have you looked into Light Health?
[00:30:24] Matt Grainger: I have seen it. I haven't really done it personally. And it just looks it looks pretty interesting. It's just a matter of time and money. Yeah. In our in our sauna. I do have some infrared, but, like, not, some lighting, but, you know, it's not huge. Have you been looking into it? Well, it's it's just really interesting.
[00:30:42] Michael Frampton: There's this guy, Jack cruise, who's been on about it for years, but now that there's sort of like 20 years, but now there's all these scientific studies coming out proving his theories right about how important, sunlight exposure is for health and how it turns on certain genes like the Pomc gene and and how if you're exposing yourself to too much blue light after the sun's gone down, how that affects blood sugar and circadian rhythms. And but if I mean, if you're getting up and going, surfing every day and getting to bed on time, it's funny, that's all.
[00:31:14] Matt Grainger: Like Huberman and all that, like, yeah, they say go out and play, you know, go get the sun. Yeah. And, I, we live on the East Coast here, so every early surf, you're like, looking into the sun exactly in the morning. You know, you're blinking, going oh. And, you know, different on the West Coast. Yeah. If you go to bed at the right time. And I try not to look at my phone before I go to bed. So, Yeah, I just try to banish that, put it away because. Yeah, that's a bad habit, isn't it? Just before looking at the screen, try to look at computers as well. So onto that in that way. Yeah. Yeah. You can just go. Yeah. Just basic stuff. Yeah. Keeping those circadian rhythms. Yeah. Haven't done the glasses or anything like that. Like the.
[00:31:58] Michael Frampton: The blue blocking glasses. Yeah.
[00:32:01] Matt Grainger: Dave Asprey and whatnot.
[00:32:02] Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah, they get into it a lot. They go hardcore on everything.
[00:32:06] Matt Grainger: They go hardcore. I'm like, no. How am I? It's none of them. Don't you think there's a fine line between how much time you got in the day and.
[00:32:15] Michael Frampton: exactly. But I mean, David Beckham and his mates, they're spending a lot of money on, like, days. Dave Asprey has a goal to live to 120. I think he might have even said 100, 150. But like and be healthy and functional at that age. So he's making sure that, you know, every day he's doing as much as he can. So those guys are going. I don't know.
[00:32:38] Matt Grainger: I don't know if I want to live that long. Yeah. It's damn sad. You know what I mean? Like, you kind of want to just die normally. You know, like.
[00:32:45] Michael Frampton: With dignity. Yeah.
[00:32:47] Matt Grainger: Dignity? Yeah. Like you don't have to go. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:50] Michael Frampton: Because if you're the only, you're the only one doing it. And like, you're you're still alive and healthy. Yeah. Friends are dead. You're like.
[00:32:58] Matt Grainger: What was that? I mean, let's talk about that all the time. Yeah. They just overboard and and almost bring a lot of anxiety, I think, to like trying to keep on point. Like you're not actually like they want to get to this goal of being this age, but they're not actually having fun in the present. Like it's like I've still got to live your life. Hey, you got to still have fun with your friends, with your friends. And, you know, like, I'm not like, a total. I'm. There's no way I'm a total monk. Like, I'm. I still eat really well, but if I, you know, if I'm with with friends and family, I'm not going to go. I'm not eating that because I'm this, you know, like, yeah, I'll still want to be part of the group, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's not going to kill me. Yeah. I don't want to have a good time with with my friends. I'm not going to be that guy that's like, oh, no, I don't do that. Because, I want to live to 150.
[00:33:46] Michael Frampton: Exactly. Yeah. I'm going to go to bed at 8:00 on Christmas Day because you want to live to 150?
[00:33:55] Matt Grainger: You know, it's kind of like. Yeah, it's counterintuitive. Really?
[00:33:59] Michael Frampton: Yeah.
[00:34:00] Matt Grainger: What about if you get to whatever, you get hit by a car? Exactly. You know. Exactly. I don't mean that in a bad way.. You got it. Still? Yeah. And it's funny, like, all this grounding, you know, we we hardly wear shoes in was, you know, you hardly wear shoes when I, when I hang out with you. Yeah, but hardly shoes. Oh, Maddy, you're wearing shoes today. That's weird. I'm like, oh, well, I had to go to remaining shoes.
[00:34:27] Michael Frampton: I hate.
[00:34:28] Matt Grainger: It. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:34:30] Michael Frampton: No, but that's the thing. All the stuff that's coming out in the latest health stuff, all these guys, it's what we do anyway. Especially as surfers. We get early morning sun. We're getting lots of grounding work because we're surfing in the ocean. That's the best way to get your. Your grounding done is in the ocean or walking on the sand in bare feet. We're getting it done anyway. But it's just interesting, all these studies coming out and and proving that.
[00:34:55] Matt Grainger: You can you can buy a grounding mat and walk outside. Put your feet on the on the cold grass, you know, like, the cold sand. Like I'll be surfing the wave pool a lot lately and it's super fun. But you still don't get that, feeling of the energy or the ocean. Like, you know, it doesn't matter if your body surf, surf, body board, whatever. If you dive in the ocean for a swim, you always come out feeling amazing, don't you? Yeah. Just from it's from the negative ions though, isn't it.
[00:35:24] Michael Frampton: Yeah. That's part of it. Yeah.
[00:35:25] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah part of it. Yeah. And just maybe the salt, the energy of the waves just being in nature and. Yeah, it's funny, you can go on the wave pool and you have a good time. You don't get that buzz of that feeling on your whole body from the natural waves. Yeah. And the salt and all that. Yeah.
[00:35:46] Michael Frampton: How much time have you spent in the wave pools?
[00:35:49] Matt Grainger:there's a new one in Sydney now. Sydney and I. Every Thursday I teach a fitness class to the staff. I've been doing that for the past six weeks. So I go out every Thursday and I make sure I serve from 4 to 5, and then I run the class at 530 to 630. So that's pretty cool. Like, I'll ride my little five three Bobby quad and, get about 20 waves. And then we ran our we ran a pretty cool course the other week. We did a get ready for your master class. It was like an endo masterclass clinic. So we taught people how to ride left tubes. So we had the expert mode, which is just a barrel. It's pretty cool. You take off, you can do a Rio or just a set up turn and get this nice tube. That's a pretty cool tube. Like the barrel is wider than it is high. Yeah, you got to get quite low in the tube. And then it kind of turned the corner a bit like macaronis. So we did um, we did about 30 minutes. I broke down all the best surfers in the world getting tubed on the TV screen have had eight participants, and so we broke that down for placement, for backhand front side, you know, getting and then we did movement patterns like mobility patterns to open up people's hips and, and ankles, because that's pretty much what you need when getting low in tubes and most tube riding.
[00:37:08] Matt Grainger: So we did that, we went and surfed for an hour. Everyone got about 12 waves. And then we there's a I it's crazy. They film this. I called Flow State on the left and the right, but we're only on the left. You come in and it's got all the clips of you. So I got a coaches password. So I went through everyone's clips and broke down what they were doing. Right. What they're doing wrong. Yeah, it was rad. And then we had had lunch and then we did apnea training. So then we went into the leisure pool, which is heated because the wave pool is only about 11 degrees at the moment. So yeah, it's quite it's quite cold. Yeah. So they just pulled 28. So we, we taught them the science of breath holding. Then we went and did it in the water. And then she did a chat on our endo. What's it like in your first aid kit? And, you know, rough cuts? Yeah, it was awesome. That was a that was a full day. It was fun.
[00:38:00] Michael Frampton: All right. So I did.
[00:38:01] Matt Grainger: That., had some fun days with the Surface Gym crew. We'll book out the pool for two hours. And so two different modes, one the tube, the expert modes and tube. And they've got advanced, which is half turns, half tube. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Good fun. And then Isabella Nichols two. She'll fly down and we'll I'll coach her for two days before an event. So before Huntington, we tested out two of the boards. See what you actually got. Two brand new boards of the HD and then obviously had more, but she had these two boards that she thought were going to be the ones. And they were so pretty cool to work that out. Yeah, we did some also some work before Bolido. So it's not a it's a good coaching tool. Yeah., because you got you guaranteed getting one left and right, so I'll book it. We'll book a session on the right and the left, and you're right there that she can come in and break it down each wave and go through some foot placement and hand placement stuff where you place the board on the wave and back out there. Yeah. So it's pretty cool. And you got all the footage on film as well and also got the flow state.
[00:39:04] Michael Frampton: All right. It's like the driving range for surfers.
[00:39:07] Matt Grainger: Yeah it is. It's the full driving range. So it keeps you fit too. Like it's actually it's a full leg workout because the way you get weaker, you've got to stay right in the pocket and push real hard with your feet and your hips. Yeah a lot of. Yeah. It's pretty interesting. Yeah. It's good. Good fun. You feel like especially in the tube major. Every time I'm just on the tube I feel like a 15 year old kid again. Like you're guaranteed a barrel. You know, you're guaranteed 15 to 20 barrels that up and. Yeah. Pretty amazing.
[00:39:34] Michael Frampton: Oh, that's so good. you're still doing good. Did you. Are you still taking people to macarons as well?
[00:39:40] Matt Grainger: Yeah, we've got one coming up, yeah. Next February, March 2025. We're doing. Chaz is doing the movement, and I'm doing the surfing right. Yeah, we've got two and I got a goose and Ari, who helped us as well as coaching. They're awesome guys and good coaches. Yeah. Yeah. It's rad. Yeah. So we basically surf from 6 a.m. till 1130 and there's two filmers there. So they the filmers get all the footage and then we, we break down the footage at 1:00 for about an hour, and then we'll go surfing again. And then sometimes if the waves are small, we'll do apnea training in the pool. So that's like a week, seven day classes or seven day clinics. So and then some people do two weeks. Yeah. Wow. But yeah it's super fun. And you know, we go to the Thunders as well because, uh, McKenzie's small. It's always two foot bigger up there. So yeah, it's good fun. Yeah. It's an awesome, awesome clinic because it's such a mechanical wave that goes from 1ft to 6 foot. Such a rippable wave. You know, just in the pocket. You can work on people's techniques and you see people improve real quick because they've got a running wall. It's not like a, you know, sitting right here, but sometimes you can just get close down. If it's the south swell you just got, you know, the people can only do one turn if that. Obviously if it's perfect, no swells here. Great. You know, all the all the, all the beaches are lining up. Machias is unbelievable. You can do four turns so you can really work on people's, you know how they you know how they sort of start the wave speed generation where they do their bottom turn, their top turn and good place for an upper body rotation. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. It's good fun. Yeah. All right. That's it.
[00:41:29] Michael Frampton: They all filled up. Clean up?
[00:41:31] Matt Grainger: Uh. Not yet. No, I think there's still some spots left. Yeah. So they're filling macaroni, doing the marketing right now for next year, but yeah, they get. Yeah. We got some good numbers this year. I think next year is going to be even better. Yeah. So it's a good gig? Yeah. It's good fun. Yeah. And, you know, good, good bonding with people. Everyone's there to learn and have a good time.
[00:41:51] Michael Frampton: I'll put a link to to details about that. Show notes.
[00:41:55] Matt Grainger: Awesome. Yeah. Awesome.
[00:41:57] Michael Frampton: You guys had a big swell there a few days. Yeah. We had.
[00:42:01] Matt Grainger: Yeah. Last week. Uh, last. Yeah, we had a massive swell. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. Only bummer had really strong southerly winds. So we, being the captain, towed the car and naughty bomb in the mornings when it was southwest. And then the wind just came up and blew it out. The dead man's was on. Yeah. We got to surf that on our own. Dead man's pumping. Have a look at that.
[00:42:27] Michael Frampton: I saw the footage. Yeah, some of it, but it was.
[00:42:30] Matt Grainger: It wasn't many people making them. Hey, it looked pretty gnarly. How cool is it? If you have a look at, uh, this is living by Carl how often he flew. He flew all the way over for it.
[00:42:41] Matt Grainger: He does that. does that blog and, Yeah, he did. He didn't even make a way. Like a proper big one. He didn't make one way. He broke in the board, got smashed. He was coming this way. Gnarly. Cuz it's kind of like the heavy cake. Then it's got a step. Yeah. And if it doesn't open up, it just collapses on you. Yeah. And you don't know when you're paddling in. You're going to be a good one or not. there's one guy called Sam Jones. Got a cracker like he made. He actually made a really good one. But the rest of the crew. Yeah. Pretty much got smashed. There was a lot of carnage. Choo choo. Kelleher did a big airdrop. Dislocated his elbow joint., he got that? no. He just airdropped and then went back over the fall. Popping the elbow. Yeah, I'm kind of done with that wave. I know it's pretty gnarly backside. You just be looking for an injury and it's crowded now. Like I have to surf it on my own with, like, you know, 4 or 5 people. And now it's everyone's out there trying to get their photo taken or their clip, which is cool. You know, they're all younger and there'll be 30, 40 people out on a semi-closed reef that's 10 to 12 foot.
[00:43:52] Matt Grainger: So we can get the jet skiing off the off the car and step on it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And then we can check out Makaha, you know, go. Makaha. German banks, North Bay cruise around being the captain. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah. You got to be ready to go for dead man's like I've. I've snapped boards out there. I've had 30 sea urchins at my 40 out there once. I just went over the falls and landed feet first. And that was pretty gnarly. Injury. Went to hospital. Like, I, I couldn't walk, so I had to paddle back to North Steyne, back to the school, and drove up to the hospital. And they couldn't even get they left about four in there. And then three stayed. Three stayed in there for about three months. And and I Right when I popped out about that big, like three months later when I went snowboarding. gnarly. I remember Barton Barton Lynch actually got. He had to go to surgery with sea urchins out there. Scotty Romaine broke his back about four years ago. Out there, captains broke ins, MCL, PCL. Just copy breaking your ribs. Yeah, that's a good way to get injured. But it's if you're young, young buck and you want to charge, go for it.
[00:45:03] Michael Frampton: Well you gotta you gotta pay to play sometimes.
[00:45:06] Matt Grainger: Yeah. Yeah yeah. The, the the risk out there that have outweigh the rewards. But yeah there's some really there's some good surfing going on. Some of the young guys the young guys in pressure like so grueling. Lex O'Connor, some of the young dudes are like 18 year olds just charging it and making barrels, too. So. But this last world was pretty wonky. But we had a real good swell a week before that. Like a beast or a swell like Narromine was off its face, mouth narrower. We had like nor'west winds and eight foot barrels and that was that was pretty fun. So yeah, that was a more user friendly. And it was pumping north out or the whole East Coast. Yeah. On the Sydney Northern Beaches was going off. So yeah that went that went for three days. So we've had a really good year. Last year was about like a pretty bad winter. Yeah. To be here for Sydney and the sandbanks are good because we had that big swell. But yeah, pretty pretty stoked. What about yourself? Any waves your way?
[00:46:05] Michael Frampton: Some. Not. Not too many. We've had a shit winter, actually. We've had heaps of. Usually you get the southerly swells here where I'm staying at the moment, but,, I've just been heaps of northerly nor east swells of low period for some reason. Almost like summer had weird weather patterns here. The south swells that come through have heaps of west in them, so they just go straight past. I don't know.
[00:46:27] Matt Grainger: And the baits are good.
[00:46:28] Michael Frampton: There's there's points and river bars around here. So we just need a decent high, long period swell and it turns on, but it still goes surfing but. And get waves and had a great summer. Great summer with the kids. Yeah.
[00:46:42] Matt Grainger: Awesome.
[00:46:43] Michael Frampton: But the winters. Yeah. Average winter here. And it's pretty.
[00:46:47] Matt Grainger: Crazy. We've actually got,, the water's cold, like, it's, 14 degrees. Yeah. So sometimes it'll be. It'll be 20 in winter usually. But this year it's cold. Yeah, but the good. Yeah. So every morning pretty much offshore. So that's kind of cool. Yeah. With this with this cold water being lucky. Yeah. Random.
[00:47:06] Michael Frampton: The water here, the water here is warmer than usual. I can still go surfing in A23 at the moment. No way. Yeah. The water's so warm here. It's just all these east and northeast flow. It's keeping the water warm.
[00:47:19] Matt Grainger: That's pretty cool. Yeah, we. The wave pools. The wave pool. Actually, the concrete holds the cold. yeah, I bet I pulled about about 1111.
[00:47:29] Michael Frampton: That's 43 bodies business.
[00:47:31] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah, I just I don't wear booties, but I the guy's wearing gloves and hoods and just make sure you paddle out real quick and keep yourself warm. But yeah, last year we were last year we went to, Mexico and I. Yeah. So that was cool., but this year I'm just going to hang back. I've been building this app called The Surfer's Compass, so I want to get that out by the 1st of September. Hopefully I'll be doing that for a year. So just breaking down all the best surfers in the world. Women and men take offs, paddling, bottom turn, top turns, cuttings, airs, tubes and then throwing in movement patterns that will help those maneuvers and then breathwork and mindset. Yeah. So that's been a fun little project.
[00:48:15] Michael Frampton: All right.
[00:48:16] Matt Grainger: So yeah be working on that. I was helping with the graphics and Joe Barker with all the edits. But yeah, that's keeping me busy. It's like a, you know like you've done a lot of projects and you just want to get it done? Yeah. I mean, I'd want to do it right, but we were told we probably could have had it done in May, but I want to do it perfect. So yeah, hopefully we get it out by. Yeah. So I got like Ethan Ewing, Mick Fanning and Kelly Slater, Jeff Gilmore, Aaron Brooks, Isabella Nichols.
[00:48:42] Michael Frampton: Parker cool. Look forward to seeing it.
[00:48:44] Matt Grainger: Yeah. So that's what's keeping me busy. Yeah, yeah. And all the other stuff. The surf school and and the surf gym.
[00:48:51] Michael Frampton: And all the barrels.
[00:48:53] Matt Grainger: All the barrels.
[00:48:54] Michael Frampton: Oh, sweet. You have to let let us, let us know when it's when it's released. And I'll spread the word.
[00:48:58] Matt Grainger: Sure. That'll be awesome. Yeah. But yeah, you can't beat a barrel, can you? I always say to people, once you get it, why don't you get tubed? You're done. You won't be able to hold a relationship or a job and.
[00:49:09] Michael Frampton: Yeah, it's addictive. Yeah. Healthy addiction though. It's on my list. I'll probably sit down with the boys this evening and we'll watch the replays and stuff. Yeah, one.
[00:49:18] Matt Grainger: Of the local boys did really well, so yeah, it's pretty, pretty good result. You got to check it out. Yeah, it's actually awesome spectacle. How was,. Did you see the the big day? Yeah.
[00:49:29] Michael Frampton: Yeah. No, I watched that with.
[00:49:31] Matt Grainger: Joe and Ramsey. Booker. Joe, do you reckon they were charging harder than the WSL because there was more on the line, like, you know, medals and, like, they always charge in the WAFL that they go hard as. But some of them are not the nailing. Some of the Wipeouts were heavy weren't they. But yeah.
[00:49:47] Michael Frampton: And also.
[00:49:48] Matt Grainger: Connor O'Leary.
[00:49:49] Michael Frampton: Though also like they had different camera angles too to the. So I don't know if they had even more expensive cameras to it just. Yeah different like just a higher level production as well. I think that helped. but certainly in the Medina it was just always everything Medina does just looks effortless, doesn't it?
[00:50:06] Matt Grainger: It's that good, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. He's amazing. Yeah. He's. He's,. Yeah. There. Ethan Ewing. Yeah. They're solid as those guys. But it was good seeing the other guy from Peru. Yeah, it was Cabrera, wasn't it? Yeah. Like,. Yeah. Just seeing the other countries. That's pretty good, isn't it, about the Olympics, like, cared a lot more diversity. Yeah. I mean, I love the WAFL, but especially when they do the cup after the cup is just too much familiar., everyone's too familiar. You know, you go,, I've seen this heat before, even though it's in a different location. But it's good when you get wild cards and that variety and you just think,, I've seen another angle of surfing, you know, like, wow, this guy's insane.
[00:50:48] Michael Frampton: All right. Matt. Hey, it's just gone 3:00. I better go in there. I got to do school pickup now, but thanks for thanks for doing the show again. Really appreciate it.
[00:50:57] Matt Grainger: Awesome, mate. Awesome, brother. Take it easy.
[00:51:00] Michael Frampton: Good to catch up.
[00:51:01] Matt Grainger: Good one. Hopefully. See you when you come to Sydney.
[00:51:03] Michael Frampton: That'd be great. Yeah. For sure. We'll be over there at some point., yeah. Keep me in. Keep me in the loop. Yeah, yeah. Keep me in the loop with the app. So. Yeah. Excellent.
[00:51:13] Matt Grainger: That'd be cool. Awesome. Awesome, mate.
[00:51:15] Michael Frampton: Thank you for tuning in to the Surf Mastery podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Also, the best way that you can help support and grow the show is to subscribe, rate and review on whatever app you're using, be it Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and of course, we are now on YouTube, so you can watch the video version of this podcast on YouTube. Be sure to check that out. Also, go to Surf mastery.com for more surfing tips via the blog. You can also book in a personal online surf coaching session with me, also at Surf mastery.com. There are two free downloadable PDFs, one with the five best tips from this show, and one the five best exercises to improve your surfing. So go to Surf mastery.com on the home page there. You'll see them. Until next time, keep surfing.
Matt Grainger on the Surf Mastery Podcast
100 Devon Howard-Understanding the Connection Between Form and Style in Surfing
Aug 09, 2024
In this milestone 100th episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, host Michael Frampton welcomes back the stylish surfer Devon Howard. Broadcasting from the Channel Islands office in Santa Barbara, Devon shares his insights on the elusive concept of style in surfing. The episode delves into the historical evolution of style, its significance in competitive surfing, and the subjective nature of defining style. Devon emphasizes the importance of making difficult maneuvers look effortless and how personal demeanor often mirrors one's surfing style. He contrasts the stylistic approaches of surfers like Joel Parkinson and Kelly Slater with the more explosive style of Adriano de Souza. Listeners are encouraged to focus on form over presentation, maintain a relaxed and efficient approach, and view style as a natural extension of personal expression.
Episode Highlights:
Introduction to Devon Howard: Recap of Devon's previous appearances on episodes 41, 77, and 86.
Importance of Style in Surfing: Exploring the subjective nature of style and its impact on surfing performance and aesthetics.
Origins of the Word 'Style': Michael provides a brief etymology of the word 'style' and its various meanings throughout history.
Cultural Influence on Style: How different surf cultures and eras emphasize or de-emphasize style.
Effortless Style: The concept of making difficult maneuvers look easy and the importance of being relaxed and calm.
Influence of Personality on Style: How a surfer’s personality often reflects in their surfing style.
Contrived vs. Natural Style: The difference between genuinely stylish surfing and trying too hard to look stylish.
Technical Aspects of Style: Tips for improving style through form, patience, and not rushing maneuvers.
Style in Tube Riding: The inherent style in good tube riding and how it relates to other surfing maneuvers.
Practical Advice: Devon’s practical advice for surfers aiming to improve their style.
Key Quotes:
Devon Howard: “Style is oftentimes making the difficult look easy.”
Michael Frampton: “You can be quick without being rushed.”
Devon Howard: “Don’t try to contrive it. Don’t rush your surfing.”
Follow Devon Howard
Check out Devon’s surfing and updates on his Instagram. Devon_howard
Devon Howard: When I. When I often think about style, there's always like there's two camps. There's the people that get it and and style is usually it's like you know it when you see it. I said, how do you know that something's pornographic versus art or beauty? And a lot of times the answer is, well, you know, when you see it, you know, something is gross or smut as opposed to art.
Michael Frampton: Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and this is episode 100 of the podcast. A little bit of a milestone. Special guest for this episode. And we've also revamped the website Surf Mastery. Com and on the front page of that website is a free PDF listing the top five tips from the Surf Mastery Podcast. So go to Surf mastery.com and you can download that PDF for free. Today's guest. Well, I was looking back through all the stats on this podcast and the the most downloaded episodes have been from Devon Howard, so it made sense to have him on episode 100. And so you can go back and listen to. He first appeared on the show, uh, episode 41, discussing longboarding and nose riding. Then it was back in, uh, episode 77 zero. Uh, we talked about Mid-lengths in episode 86. It was Twin fins. And today in episode 100, Devin Howard joins us again to discuss style. Style is something that is in it's fundamental. It's paramount for every type of surfing that is done, from traditional longboarding all the way through to high performance, short boarding. All of the greats, all of the most memorable surfers have good style. They are stylish. From Joel Tudor in traditional longboarding through to Joel Parkinson as a high performance, competitive short boarder Tom Curren. Uh, mid lengths and twin fins. You got Torin Martin.
Michael Frampton: And of course, Devon Howard himself is a very stylish surfer. He's very smooth, very graceful on a longboard, on a mid length and a twin fin. We've even seen some footage of him riding, uh, three thrusters out there on his Instagram. And his style, his technique, his gracefulness runs throughout his surfing. So a perfect topic for us to discuss in episode 100, so I would love to hear your feedback on the show in general. Last 100 episodes and of course this episode. Go ahead, send us an email Mike at Surf mastery.com. Or you can DM me on Instagram or leave a comment under the, uh, the visual for this episode. And of course, support Devin Howard, give his Instagram a follow. And of course, he's, uh, joining us from the Channel Islands office in Santa Barbara. Uh, Devin is currently working with Channel Islands, are working on some new surfboard models as well as he's you know, some of the most popular boards recently have been he's been a part of. So without further adieu, I shall fade in my conversation with Devon Howard. I actually see a lot of agreement between Brett and Chaz on this subject. Yeah, yeah, because there are there are thing right that you go to a Grateful Dead concert and you experience the show and the vibe, you don't really listen to them on Spotify.
Devon Howard: Yeah. It's it's something to be enjoyed live.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. There's a certain style and vibe to them I think that come across differently in person than it does. And also the audience they sort of draw in. Yeah. Rather to the music on Spotify right there.
Devon Howard: There are two bands that I think are better live as well, which I think Radiohead is better live. I like Radiohead, I think a lot of their albums are great. I've been to a few of their shows that I think, no, this is 10 or 15 years ago. I don't know if that's still the case, but at the time when they were really peaking, they were insane live. And then I also saw James Brown live. Oh, wow. 25 years ago. And that was incredible. Mhm. I mean what a showman.
Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah I can imagine I mean there's the Radiohead live from the basement. Um unbelievable. Like gives you I can't remember what album it's they play in full from their studio basement studio and just makes you appreciate them on a whole nother level. Yeah. Just just by watching that on YouTube, not even being there. Well, yeah. Um, I remember seeing a gentleman called AMP Fiddler, another one of the best live acts I ever saw. Um, gave me a new appreciation of his music. He's sort of new, new age funk slash reggae. Um. Interesting music. Yeah. Catch a fire. Catch a fire. They're doing a tour through California at the moment. There are another unbelievable band live. Their live performance and sound is bigger than their their studio albums. I think they actually New Zealand band. You get a chance to see them. They often play in Santa Barbara. I forget the venue names, like a 500 capacity venue in Santa Barbara. They always play there.
Devon Howard: Is that the ball? I'm not sure.
Michael Frampton: Can't remember.
Devon Howard: Anyway, a lot of venues there, but yeah.
Michael Frampton: Style. Let's talk about style. Do you? Yeah. What would what do you know the origin of the word.
Devon Howard: Um, I don't, but I'd imagine. Uh. Well, I hope you did some research on it. Is it, um, the Latin word is it is it is it Greek? Is it? Where does it come from?
Michael Frampton: Let me sort of summarize from etymology online from the early 14th century started out as a writing instrument, pen or stylus, uh, a piece of a piece of written discourse or narrative, uh, characteristic. Characteristic, uh, rhetorical mode of an author, a manner or mode of expression. Uh, a way of life behavior. Uh, then the word sort of transformed, uh, the evolution of the word uh, from writing tool went into writing into manner of writing, into mode of expression, uh, in writing of a particular writer, writer or author. Um, and then it was in the 1500s. It was paired with the word substance, um, which basically meant back then, divine part of essence, sorry, divine part or essence, uh, and that, sort of, that sort of gave the word, uh, a deeper meaning, including finer parents or dashing character. Um, then it was the word then went into an artist's particular mode or form of skilled presentation that was later extended into athletics. Um, then by the 1800s it was distinctive or characteristic mode of dress. Obviously it was more in regards to fashion. Um, and so there's a, there's a little bit of a history of the word. So I think there's a lot of lot of depth to that. And it's certainly, um, it's very, uh, apt for, for surfing. A lot of those meanings, I think. Yes. Had tell me what you think about style and how important it is.
Devon Howard: Well, style is um, from my personal experience growing up, it was a, it was a measure of good surfing and, um, it was a marker of, like, one's own presentation of their expression of surfing. Uh, I don't want to cheapen it by, I guess, using the word brand, like your brand of surfing, but, um, everyone has their own form of expression, and style is. Oftentimes I see style as making the difficult look easy and my own belief in, you know, just absorbing what was around me when I was a kid. You know, we're humans. We we sort of mimic and and imitate what's around us. I haven't innovated anything really at all. I've just looked what's around. And you take bits and pieces of first. You take it from your parents, of course. And then as you get out in the world, it's like what's going on around you. And in San Diego, where I grew up. And I think this was the same in many other served cities in not only the US but the world. Um, in the 80s, the older surfers, 10 to 20 years or year older than you, where style focused as opposed to this idea of, um, ripping or tearing something apart and in doing it with reckless abandon. Um, that was something that started getting more popular as I was a kid. So I was sort of born into this era where one thing was kind of falling out of favor. Um, and this other form of surfing was gaining popularity. And, uh, sorry, that was kind of a muddled answer, but it's it's I think it's one of the most difficult subjects in surfing to discuss or to describe because it's so subjective. Um, and it comes with the word style, comes with a lot of different ideas to people ranging from beauty to something that's very contrived and nonfunctional.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. I mean, has the word style itself has, as you sort of addressed, has a lot of meanings, like everyone has their own unique style, you could say, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are stylish. So when we think of when we think of stylish surfers, we do. We think of beauty and grace and flow. Um, so and I think it is related to, to that and it's related to efficiency, right? I mean, Rob Machado comes to mind. I think he's sort of an incredibly stylish surfer, but he's also fits in that modern category. Category of radical. Yeah, he encompasses both. And I mean, world champ Joel Parkinson obviously fit the criteria of of competition surfing but remained incredibly smooth and stylish.
Devon Howard: Yeah. Well, um, you know, I think depending who where you grew up and what culture you came from or grew up in, um, style could also just not be that important. You know, if, if surfing to to you or just to any individual is about, um, really pushing as hard as they can with maneuvers and being as radical as they can and, you know, tearing apart a wave of, you know, like you think of the Brazilian storm. Guys there for years have been, you know, they're well deserved. They're incredible athletes. They are highly athletic. And it is explosive maneuvers. And they're acrobats in many ways. Um, for some reason, as that game has gained popularity, some aspects of the presentation and sort of fall into the wayside where, uh, in gymnastics, um, presentation and form is still really part of the whole thing was never really let like if you do a floor routine in gymnastics, um, or let's say dance or anything like that, they're doing really kind of athletic, powerful moves, but they also keep the form and I don't know quite the exact reason, but, uh, that sort of started falling out of favor in surfing, mostly because what drives our conversations oftentimes revolves around competition. Surfing, um, like competition surfing drives a lot of the media narratives, um, let's say, who are like, where do we get our information from? It's driven by the cell to, to whatever extent that is, stab in their audience.
Devon Howard: Um, surf line kind of, sort of. But they're more focused on cameras and whatnot. And then the most of the magazines have gone out of business. But only ten years ago, a lot of the stories were driven by the the personalities and the folks that competed. And there was a mixed bag in there of surfers that had great style, like Joel Parkinson. He mentioned, um, I would say Kelly Slater has a good style. It's a different style. It's his own. Um, and then on the opposite end of that would be like an Adriano de Souza or somebody like that, where he's clearly just incredibly talented, but sort of putting his surfing together and like one seamless, fluid motion was not a focus of his. And so, um, it's been interesting to watch and the broader conversations of the mainstream, how that sort of played out, uh, in back to where I grew up. I grew up on the fringe of all that. Anyways, so I was riding longboards in the 80s and 90s that was as fringe as it got. And in that world, all through that time, um, style was still important, even when folks were trying to emulate Shortboard maneuvers on longboards, there was still an emphasis of style. Um, sorry. I'll shut up. I don't know where I'm going with that, but yeah.
Michael Frampton: So I'm just wondering when you look at, I mean, I think that you mentioned the Brazilian storm. I think Gabriel Medina is quite stylish. Not all the time, but probably actually more so when you see him. Freeserve he sort of. He just seems to be more relaxed when he's not surfing in a competition. And I think that's maybe what separates the I think that's a big part of being stylish is you're very calm and you're relaxed. That doesn't necessarily mean you're going slower or that you're even putting less effort in. It's just maybe you referenced gymnastics. I think a gymnast could do the same routine. They get the same height, the same amount of power. But if one of their runs, they were purposely trying to keep the presentation of themselves relaxed and calm, it would be more visually appealing. Sort of making it look, look easy.
Devon Howard: Yeah. That's the that's the thing. Making it difficult look easy. Mhm. In the 60s or 50s or whatever the boards weren't very maneuverable. So um clearly the market did. Surfing was just people who were stylish and could kind of keep it together. Um, hang on one second. Um, are you hearing a beeping on your end? What? I'm getting messages. Yeah.
Michael Frampton: Is that your phone?
Devon Howard: Yeah. I don't know how to turn off the iMessage on my, uh. Oh, it's on the computer. I'm trying to see how to undo this. Is this on.
Michael Frampton: Your phone, a phone or your laptop or your iPad?
Devon Howard: It's on my laptop. Oh, sorry. You're going to have to edit this out. That's all right. I'm just getting, like, every one of them. Don't fuck me up. The client. Claudia, um, do you have any idea how to get rid of iMessage off here? Preferences services?
Michael Frampton: That's a good question. I don't I don't have my, um, I don't have my laptop linked to my phone, so. Yeah.
Devon Howard: Don't do it. References. Let's say.
Michael Frampton: I'd say I'd be under notifications, notifications and focus is like a bell symbol.
Devon Howard: On, uh, on the computer itself or on the phone.
Michael Frampton: I'm looking on my laptop.
Devon Howard: Where did you find the notifications in System Preferences?
Michael Frampton: Okay.
Devon Howard: System preferences notifications. There they are. Look at that.
Michael Frampton: And top top right there's a there's a button. Allow notifications so you can turn that off or on I'd say that's it.
Devon Howard: Only five messages? There we go. Okay, I want to turn that off. Okay. Apologies for that. Okay. So, um. All right.
Michael Frampton: So where were we? Let me throw out some some adjectives that I wrote down after thinking about style a little bit. Um, efficient. Graceful. Functional. Calm. Focused. Relaxed. Grounded. Present. Fearless. Or maybe, better put, courageous. Is there anything you would add to that or you think shouldn't be there?
Devon Howard: Uh, no. I just think it's more about a calm and a gracefulness. It's mostly what it is. And it's just a it's just the form of your personal expression. I think a lot of the style, you'll see style of folks from a distance, and a lot of ways it matches up to their personality. Right? You'll see someone who's quite busy, a lot of a lot of kinetic, sort of frantic, uh, motions and, and not always the case, but sometimes, like, okay, this person's a little overcaffeinated in general, you know, they're really mellow, kind of quiet. People have this very quiet. Always meet a really quiet surfer with their style, and they're really loud and and obnoxious. There's exceptions to the rule, but if you think about it quickly, there's not often the case. And so, um, I think a lot of those adjectives actually work pretty well. Um, I don't what did you say? Courageous.
Michael Frampton: Yeah.
Devon Howard: I don't really know that that applies to it. Really. I don't think it's really much to do with courage other than. Well, I was.
Michael Frampton: Thinking that I was just wondering if that was a better word than fearless.
Devon Howard: Mhm.
Michael Frampton: Because if you, if you look, if you look scared, that's not very stylish is it.
Devon Howard: No, no it's very your tent style. And yeah I've said to people I don't do surf coaching, but if I've ever seen someone in the water and looks like they're struggling, if it's appropriate or sort of convenient, like they're just sort of right there. I'll say, do you do you mind if I offer some advice? It's usually well received. Um, a lot of times I've said, I think you just relax a little bit. Your body's too tense. Looks bad, but it also screws up the your ability to surf because now it's affected the form. Like you're sort of hunched over and bracing for, like, some sort of impact where you need to be more relaxed. The arms need to be relaxed, the shoulders should be relaxed. Surely you should be able to sort of slink back and into your knees and your hips and let those kind of bend and sort of sit into the board nicely. And so I think, um, what I, what I often think about style, there's always like there's two camps as the people that get it and, and style is usually it's like you know it when you see it. I said, how do you know that something's pornographic versus art or beauty? And the a lot of times the answer is, well, you know, when you see it, you know, something is gross or smut as opposed to art.
Devon Howard: Like you go into an art gallery and there's naked, you know, images of a naked person. How is that not pornography? And it's like, well, you know, when you see it and it's like, style. You sort of know it when you see it, and then you have, um, the other end of that where people will feel style is just posing and looking cool, like you're putting your hands in the air to, to look like Alex Knost or Mickey Dora or Rob Machado, whoever the insert the surfer, you're trying to mimic their hand placement, and sometimes the hand placement provides no real function or value to the to the ride. Other than it. It might feel good, I guess, but it's not making you surf better. Um, where I like to, I often will. I will argue or believe that yes, there are people that pose and that does exist, I exist, grant you that. But good style also brings about, um, really good form. Or I would look at it a different way. Really good form pulls along the style into it. So if you have good form and whether that's in a barrel or a cutback, if your body is doing sort of the right things to make a beautiful, seamless ride easier.
Devon Howard: Um, along with that usually comes a pretty good style if you don't have a good style. A lot of times the form is really working against your surfing. So for example, you got to do a cutback in your arm is up and back, um, front side. And let's say I'm turning this way. Front side cut back. Well, if my back arm is in the air waving behind me, I'm really struggling to get my body around and I'm actually having to work really hard for could potentially even injure yourself. Um, so that really hinders your surfing. But if I brought the arm in and drop it down and then have the arm kind of point toward where I want to go, the rest of my body goes. And it's actually quite easy to do the turn and consequently it looks much better. Doesn't look so awkward. Yeah. And and this could be said of your front arm. I've seen folks do cut backs with. I don't know why this happens, but sometimes their front arm is is sort of flailing and going behind them over here. Or they're extending and reaching too far. Um, so when there's this nice balance of the front and the back hand on the front side, cut back looks cool. Hey, that's great. If someone took a photo. Yeah, you probably put on the wall.
Devon Howard: Looks pretty good. Looks like Michael Peterson or somebody or whatever. Joel Parkinson Ethan Ewing would be a really good contemporary example, I guess. And, um, but when it's all sort of like the form is there, it looks good, but now you're surfing better and the turn is faster and more complete. And also when you have nice form, you get the board in trim. What I mean by that is when when the boards in trim, it's sort of if you know anything about sailing, when everything's in alignment with the bow and the sail and the the boat is really hitting its top speed, there's nothing really hindering or dragging or fighting against um, that top trim speed. In surfing, you want to get to the top trim speed, because when you have speed, it's easier to complete maneuvers, it's less work. You go into the maneuvers with speed, you can do a lot better. It's like snowboarding. If anyone snowboarded you know that the first few days you're learning, the instructor will say, you just need to get going faster. You know what? We know that's scary. I don't want to go faster, but. Well, you're going so slow that that's why you're tumbling and you're catching an edge and you're getting stuck on the hill. Go faster. And then you see this light bulb moment with people like, my gosh, well, I should have just been going faster all along.
Devon Howard: It's the same with surfing. You'll see people struggling to get trim speed because their form is so terrible. They're not understanding that the board is not even in trend. The board then noses out or they're waving their arms. They're there. They're there shaking their body like this, and they're trying to wiggle and do stuff. And you're watching the board underneath. And the board is just like on a gimbal, just like not getting any trim. It's just stop and go, stop and go. So it's this utter fail where if the person just relaxed a little bit, relax their arms, don't try to flop the body around and just get the idea of even going straight, which is hard to do on a chalkboard. Clearly, if you're a beginner, you probably shouldn't even be on the floor. Um, it's just going to be a struggle. Yet a board that's medium like a mid length or something, or a long board where you can kind of stand there and glide and trim, and then you can kind of get that form where your body is body's relaxed. And um, so a lot of times good style, I believe just comes with the right form, if that makes sense.
Michael Frampton: I totally agree. Yeah. And that's what I think. That's what a surf coach, the surf coach's job is. And then it's once, once the person becomes at first the new, the better form will feel strange and maybe even, um, abnormal and uncomfortable. And it's only once that form becomes, uh, ingrained and you become comfortable with it, then it looks stylish. So it's it's maybe it's a precursor to style. Is is good form.
Devon Howard: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um, another thing that I've thought about a lot in the last several years about style is, um, it, it sort of belies the, the technique or the difficulty of the maneuver. I think if it looks like someone's trying really super hard to do like a, let's say, a crazy air or just like the craziest turn where like, they blow, they like, blow the tail out and spin the board around and like, oh, whoa, that was insane. That was so difficult. But if you see somebody do a top speed cut back and they don't lose or drift the fins and they just go and mock 20 and just bam, come up fluid and seamless. You might say, man, that was really smooth. That was really stylish. But you don't often think that that was also really difficult. It's interesting. And, um, I'm not trying to get people to cheer more for the stylist, I guess, but I think it's worth sort of acknowledging that Mikey February or Torin Martin and some of those things they're doing, um, we're drawn to them because they're beautiful, which is undeniable. Um, but it's also interesting to think that these are the highest level people at the very upper echelon, at the top peak of, uh, you know, ability of sphere fame. And it something to be learned there, like to not just only acknowledge and only see the style which is great.
Devon Howard: I love that I'll watch that stuff all day long, but to like hit the rewind button and look at what they're doing and how on rail that board is and how difficult it is to hold the line and not lose it. Because a lot of times, especially in performance, short boarding it, it's incredible what the surfers do. It's like it's a controlled failure of the surfing. So a lot of times when the fins release, it's a and I know this because I put a lot of thought into fins and foils and whatnot. A lot of the best high performance surfing maneuvers are, um, a controlled failure. Mhm. Um, they're pushing the limits of the board, and a lot of times the fins or the equipment can't really handle what these surfers are giving it. It's really interesting. Look at look at someone laying into a turn and their butt is sliding across the wave and the fins and the board and everything's sliding. Um, and then look at, like a mick Fanning or somebody who can hold that or Ethan Ewing and hold it all the way through. That's gnarly. That is just like peak form. But you're like, man, that was so smooth, but you're not ever saying that was so difficult to do. And I don't know what the point is I'm making.
Devon Howard: I guess it comes back to, uh, like the kind of surfing I like to do. It's could be easily scoffed at as pretty easy, like, hey, mid-length surfing, you're just going straight. It's not really difficult. Um, but I don't know, man. At the highest levels. Like, I think what Torin Martin does, I think what February does if he's on a mid lake or other, you know, there's other surfers out there doing it and I cut a watch. Wow, look at that. 5/6 of the rail of that board is buried. And that's what I do myself. And that's to me that's the most thrilling thing is to bury that rail. How how far can I push this thing before it fails me? That's just really, really thrilling. You're just on the edge of disaster. You know, when you go on one of those seven foot boards, go to the bottom, slink, you know, and and coil up into the board and push it as hard as you can. Alex Moss does this really good as well. I can go on forever. People do a great job of this and they push all that board through. And then if you don't watch it, you know, if you're not too far forward or too much weight on your front foot, you'll slingshot up the face as this fast, free feeling, like a flying feeling that's highly addictive.
Devon Howard: It's something that you just keep my people that are into those types of boards, they just keep chasing it. Um, and then down the line, do the same thing again. Now I'm going to bury a whole lot of rail on the cutback. How hard can I push it? And when I get down to the bottom of the wave, can I just keep going right back to the whitewater? Oh yes, I can. Damn. Just keep going. Sometimes it doesn't work out. Uh, and if you blow that, you're doing the split that's on the board. Now you've got a torn MCL. Um, but you're going full throttle. And that on that type of equipment. Um, the form is important so that you don't botch it because you really could get injured on some of these things. It probably someone who hears has got a laugh and think, this is a joke. Like, you're being really hyperbolic, bro. Come on. It's just a mid length and you're over water. Um, yeah. When you're pushing it really hard, it's it's it's thrilling and it's exciting and it is difficult to do and it's I think it's, um, it's really appealing to a lot of people. Um, and then they, you know, they go and try and do it and say, man, I, I wish I could surf like Rob Machado on this thing. Yeah.
Michael Frampton: Well, all the surfers.
Devon Howard: Take ten years.
Michael Frampton: Yeah, if not longer. I think all the surfers you mention and the way you talk about their surfing is they're. Can they stay connected? You know, that as, as they're going through the, through the turns and in between turns, there's no there's no radical gain or loss of speed. Right. So that where they do the cutback isn't just a change of direction. It's in sync with that part of the wave. So they stay connected to the power source. So there's a certain it's a radical maneuver, but the speed doesn't waver too much, whereas some surfers might jump up to the top and bust the fins, and they might slow right down and then fall back down into the wave and go again. And it looks good in photos and maybe gets judged well in a competition. But it's not necessarily they're not as connected to the wave as other surfers.
Devon Howard: Yeah. And again, that's debatable. I'm sure there's other people who will feel opposite of that. And that's great. You know, surfing's subjective. Yeah. And you know, in in just to bring it back a little bit to competition if that's okay. I know lots of people don't care about surf competition, but it is where a lot of the best surfing's happening. It's where the like the high bar is a lot of times um, and in the 60s and 70s style was just sort of, um, it wasn't like there was a style box that was ticked. It was it was sort of like this nice little cozy little wrapping around the surfing that was just a given, you know, so it didn't really need to be discussed. And then in the 80s, when in probably really the late 70s when the twin fin was really coming on with Mr. pushing that and Sean Thompson and other people chasing him. Um, they were packing in as many maneuvers as they possibly could into a ride to take away more points. And and this isn't my own thought or original idea. I've read these things elsewhere, and I agree with his take, which is somewhere along the way. The beauty just sort of eroded because the focus is now like we're getting really fixated on number of maneuvers. And this like real technical aspect of the difficulty of the maneuvers.
Devon Howard: And surfing is already highly subjective. And you have this even more subjective thing, style. Um, and some of them may be, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe there was a style element at some point. I'm not aware of it, maybe there was. And um, so anyways, the 80s kind of moves on and there were clearly lots of stylish surfers. I mean, I grew up like many people my age, I'm 50, so I worshiped Tom Curren and I loved Tommy Carroll and a bunch of folks. There was lots of style, but there was also some people with some really hideous style, like Gary Elkerton and David and all these people. Nothing against them, man. Like, I think they're all incredible surfers, but there were some hideous styles and they crushed it in contests because they were just animals, like lacerating, tearing it up. And because the broader culture is being driven by whatever media is being consumed. And the media at the time was really sort of swiveling and craning and watching what's going on in competition, because that's like where the money's being plugged in. So those brands like, hey, we validate this thing we're doing, which is competition surfing. Um, and it just boiled down to what do you got to do to win this thing? And if making it look beautiful was not ever important, why would you spend time doing that? Tom Curran couldn't help himself.
Devon Howard: He was stylish no matter what. But, um, lots, lots of other surfers weren't, and they did very well. Um, and so as the decade or two ensues, um, just the sort of broad mainstream viewpoint was, that style just wasn't important. However, the people that were in the sort of the underground, your locals, people that sort of stuck to the fringe and even the in people that short boarded as well, obviously still kind of kept style alive and in it. And the reason style always stayed alive is because the idea that human beings are drawn and attracted to beauty is as old as time, I think. I mean, who knows? When that began, I had a really nice chat with David Scales on, um, Surf Splendor, and we spoke about this there. So if you want to hear more about this, go check that out. I think it was a nice conversation, but I'll sort of reiterate some of the points there was. I read an article by Scott Hewlett in The Surfer's Journal, and he wrote quite a bit about style, and he illustrated a point that I'd never considered. And he sort of talking about this Greek artists. It was like 500 BC. I'm like, where is this thing going? Why are we talking about bronze sculptures? Um, but he made a really brilliant point, which is, okay, why does style matter? Why do we keep talking about it? Um, it's because beauty endures.
Devon Howard: It is a common theme in human nature. Now, in recent times, I'd say beauty is being abandoned. If you look at modern architecture and just about any town, everything looks like shit. So I don't know what's going on there. We used to make beautiful buildings and now we're stopping doing it. Um, you we can't control that. But in surfing, we keep getting drawn back to this idea of beauty. Despite all those things that happen that we just talked about in the 80s and 90s competition, surfing and getting derailed. The broad culture still is always known instinctively that this is something that should, um, we should never stop cherishing. We should never stop celebrating. Um, and I think it's backed up by if you go to any Torin Martin video, go down to this thing below the screen that says views. A lot of Torin Martin videos have like a million plus views. Um, go over to Gabrielle Medina or anyone, and I'm not picking on these people. Just pick anybody. I'll bet you right now that Torin is is beating a lot of those surfers, 2 or 3 or 4 to 1 in terms of views. Now, you could argue that, well, there's more a lot more Gabriel Medina type surfers and there's not that many tour Martin's, I'll give you that.
Devon Howard: But I, I think it's really because we are drawn to beauty. And so back to that Surfers Journal article, which is he he said, imagine taking those Greek statues and putting a surfboard underneath them. And when I was done reading the article, I went and I googled 500 BC Greek statue and I forget the artist's name, its Greek name, and I was instantly like, huh, look at that. You just put a surfboard under these statues. And some of the form and posture was a little bit silly, but a lot of it was pretty spot on. And then you go right over to Jerry Lopez, or you go to Mikey February or somebody else, and you can see that, um, there's a similarity to this idea of beauty. And then you go take it steps further, take it to, uh, any type of traditional dance. Have you ever seen ugly, poor form at any dance scenario where there's, like, serious people, whether it's ballroom or it's swing or it's foxtrot or it's tango or it's salsa, it's just incredibly beautiful. And it's this expression. The music is coming in. You're viewing and watching and feeling the music. There's that input, and the output is what these people are feeling. And so that our output in surfing is, is that form and that expression. Um, bullfighters. Same thing.
Michael Frampton: Mhm.
Devon Howard: Now the bullfighters have a little more of a pose at the end, the bulls coming in and the bull goes through the cape and they kind of hold it and they sort of like it's almost like a taunting of the bull. Like you didn't kill me. And look how calm I am right here. And a lot of the surfers in the 50s and 60s, they really admired the bullfighters as a great shot of Joey Cobell in Peru in the 60s. Guys never bullfight, but bull fought before, and he's down there and there's pictures of him in the bull ring with a Hawaiian print shirt on and doing the whole full Ole, you know. And so this idea of style really, um, is always going to matter and always be important to us. Um, so long as we don't ever abandon this, um, attraction of ours to beauty, you know, we're attracted to beautiful people. Clearly, that's a given, right? Um, but we're really drawn to beautiful, um, things art, architecture, wonderful garden, uh, an unmolested landscape. And so it I don't think people really care to give too much thought about style.
Devon Howard: I think it's just sort of like I said, you know, when you see it, does it really need to be talked about? But I think in the context of a podcast like yours where people are trying to improve their surfing, um, having a real understanding that this isn't just for show style isn't just to look cool. It's not like putting on a cool outfit to look cool. Um, it's a real purpose driven thing. Certain articles of clothing look great, but they also have a purpose. Maybe it has SPF in it, maybe it's, um, built for a particular, um, activity to make it more comfortable. Um, for us, as I was saying in the very beginning, like the form, um, the style sort of follows the form. And if you, if you really think about your form and you're relaxed and you're sort of paying attention to the things that you talk about on your podcast or where people get their information, There's lots of different YouTube things, obviously. Um, you two could have nice style if you so desire.
Michael Frampton: Yeah, I 100% agree. Surfing is first and foremost an art form. Mhm. It's only within competition that it becomes a sport. And then yes, sometimes we don't necessarily we sacrifice a bit of style for progression perhaps as well as what's happening in windsurfing is a sport. I still think the best of the best, the best of the best can buy. Like John John, he's number one at the moment for a reason. Not just because he's progressive, but because he he would do a progressive turn with calm style like no one else. Yeah, yeah. So I still have faith. I think there'll be the odd slip up. You know, Toledo's frantic aerial maneuver that goes higher than everyone else. The judges kind of. They can't not score it, you know. So, you know, there'll be blips in the system, glitches in the matrix, per se, until until the judges, you know, really start to consider style and and make that a point which hopefully, maybe one day they will. I think it would make, uh, I would make surfing more watchable.
Devon Howard: Well, they have done so in longboard surfing. Yes. Longboard surfing has a much smaller audience, obviously. Um, but as I believe you and I talked about in the past, I think we did. I was at the WSL for a few years, and I worked on the longboard tour and built into the criteria is the word style also two other words flow and grace. Um, Style. Flow. Grace is in the criteria and it's hard, a little difficult to train the judges on it, you know? Um, it's highly subjective. It's something we could we could sit here for an hour, breaking down style, flow, grace. It will still feel like we barely scratched the surface. Um, because it's it is highly subjective. Just like art is just like music is just like food is just like, what kind of waves I like? Ah, it's just like that. It's just, um, really can be difficult to put your finger on it. But the way we did the training to help, um, these judges, if anyone cares to know this stuff is, um, have them really focus on somebody making something really difficult look easy, but also at the same time, dealt with sight of the positioning of the wave or the difficulty of the maneuver, because to the untrained eye, you could you could see someone doing a nose ride and maybe they're doing something really what you may think is beautiful on the nose.
Devon Howard: Maybe their arms are held a certain way. It just looks kind of like cool. But if you pay close attention, they're like ten feet in front of the pocket and you're like, that's not that hard to do. Mhm. So the so what helps is in the other part of the criteria is um, the degree of difficulty that is part of it. So you have to, you're looking at the style of flow and grace but you're applying it to are these surfers in the pocket. Is the surfer using their rail or are they lifting the board out of the water? Because to lift the longboard out of the water and turn it as far easier than engaging the rail in the water and pushing it through a turn. That's much more difficult. And so it has been applied in longboard surfing. Let's see if we can. If anyone cares, we could try to do a campaign to get the Shortboard tour to break more.
Michael Frampton: I'm with you. I'm with you. Ultimately, I do think it shines through and the cream always rises to the top. But it would be nice if it was literally in the criteria, and it was considered by each surfer to be a worthy consideration. Um, coming back to form, let me I'm going to share my screen with you. Let me. Hopefully this works. Oh, shit. Did that work? Can you see my screen?
Devon Howard: I think so. Let me move my notes here a little bit. Oops. Too many things around here. I'm terrible at computer stuff, but second. So where it is now? Okay, I can see it now.
Michael Frampton: So there's an example of a, you know, if that was placed on the nose of a longboard, it'd be quite cool.
Devon Howard: Yeah, it's pretty close.
Michael Frampton: But then also so here's you see on the left there is the way that a baby learns to stand now because the infant is so weak, there's only one way that they can learn to roll over and learn to stand up and hold themselves. Because their muscles are so weak, their bones have to be placed so accurately in order for them to be able to stand and move. And that's how we learn because of our our weakness and our slow progression into strength, we learn the most efficient way possible. Now it's the athletes that maintain that neurological efficiency that end up with the best form naturally, i.e. the way Kelly Slater's standing there in those barrels. Not only is he standing in a very similar way to the infant there, he's also very calm and relaxed in that position.
Devon Howard: Yeah, I would definitely not be that calm in that way. Those waves.
Michael Frampton: Exactly. So it does come back to to form. And it's also when when an athlete is standing with their joints in DNS, we call it joint centration and that the bones are stacked on top on top of each other in a very efficient way. It just looks right. Not only does it look right the way the forces are spread throughout the body, it doesn't feel hard. Anyone who's ever tried, if anyone, has ever tried to skate a vert ramp, for example, half pipe, it feels like, oh man, my legs aren't strong enough. How do people and then you watch a 12 year old just go up and down. They're not doing it because their legs are stronger than yours. They're not even doing it because they're stronger relative to their body weight. They're doing it because they're stacking themselves. Their bones and their joints are centered properly, and the force is being transferred throughout their entire body through the center of the bone and into the skateboard. Whereas someone who doesn't know what they're doing, they're trying to muscle their way through it. They only does it feel terrible. It looks terrible. Yeah. So I agree with that. Yeah. So it does come back to efficiency. And you said no good style is that you know it when you see it. My question to you is, do you know it when you feel it?
Devon Howard: Yes. Um, I believe so. Um, I know, um, I've even had moments where I just didn't feel like I was in the right form. It just didn't the the turn didn't feel good or the particular move movement. Maybe it's a nose ride or something. Didn't feel great. And if you get a chance to be lucky enough to come across a video or a photo of that moment, you're like, mm, yeah, that that is actually backs it up. It looks a bit awkward. It looks a bit off. So and you definitely can feel good style because you like it, like it's all tethered to, to itself. Like it's it feels good. It looks good. Um, and it, it's sort of like carries on the ride. It's it's like when you get off the very beginning of the ride and the first bottom turn is successful and your feet are in the right place. It really sets up the rest of the ride. Um, if you botch that, let's say you screw it up getting to your feet or off the bottom. Then you get you. You screw up the pace of the wave. So, um, yeah, I've had times where my feet were too far forward or back or whatever. Um, or I hit a chop and my arms sort of waved a little bit, and then I got out of that rhythm. Um, and that didn't that definitely didn't feel good. And it certainly didn't, because it looked like I was rolling up the windows as opposed to my arms being sort of down and going the direction that I want to be headed.
Devon Howard: A lot of times the front end, the back end oftentimes are going the direction you want to go. I find that to be very helpful, and that feels good to me because I feel really centered. I or you'd say stacked. You know, I never thought of it that way, but, um, so yeah, I would agree. I would say you definitely. You definitely feel it. Um, my own belief is I don't I don't do anything in the style that I feel is what's called contrived, where I'm trying to present before of some kind that it has a certain look. The form I have is, is really based off of function, and that's because I watched the generation two ahead of me at a waves like wind and sea and Cardiff Reef, and I watched the elders and what the I really watched closely what they were doing. How they were sinking down into the board. And I noticed that their hands, their fingers were never apart. Their, um, hand gestures were sort of always in the direction of where their board and body was heading. It was like this stacking or centering. He kind of like hunkered down, but they never looked stiff or scared or afraid of anything or timid. It was very, a very confident, almost like a martial artist, like a kung fu person or something that has confidence in the form of that particular move.
Devon Howard: Um, the really good surfers, the real standout surfers. I, I identified that pretty young and I said, I want I need to learn how to do that. Um, so it was never a contrived thing, like, I need to look good and look cool. I just knew that that was good surfing. And as a consequence of learning going through that, it also felt really good. It was like a good golf swing. I don't golf at all, but I have friends who do and I can understand like how much work they put into that golf swing. And when they do that, clearly it looks good from a distance because they hit the ball and it goes right where they want it to go. So that's pretty awesome. But they'll tell you it feels good. It's like uh, or baseball. If you've ever played baseball, you know the feeling of a homerun. There's a sound of the bat and the feel through the bat into your hands, and you feel it. The follow through of the swing. You're like, that ball is out of here. It's pretty cool. Um, Mhm. A reward to not that it's work but there's sort of like this payoff and a reward to the dedication that it took to learn that, that art form. Mhm.
Michael Frampton: But it always comes back to the feeling. Yeah.
Devon Howard: It really does. Yeah I didn't I haven't put too much thought into the feeling piece of it. But um yeah. You know it's disgusting and really dumb and shallow. But I've, I've had moments where the way where the ride did it feel good, and I didn't even finish the wave. I was so not into the feeling. I just kicked out. I was like, I've botched this thing so bad that someone else just needs to finish it. I'm just. I just kick out and I go back up to the top and kind of regroup and go, what? What just went wrong there? And then, you know, like surfing. Everyone surfs for different reasons too. Like for some people, surfing is a couple times a month. It's an escape for them. They don't care if they surf. Well, that's not what they're there for.
Michael Frampton: Like they're probably not listening to this, though.
Devon Howard: Probably not. Um, and I like I've had people say, man, you look so serious when you're surfing. I'm like, I'm pretty serious about it. Like it? I'm to me, it's so strange. It's serious fun and and it's as I've gotten older, I haven't lost interest in it. It's like a it's like a hunt to me. It's really weird. No, and I don't I don't know if it's just some human thing of like the game and the chess moves and the everything involved with observing patterns. I've observed patterns for decades, and now I see the patterns, and the benefit for me is I know which wave to pick. I know where to beat. And by knowing that I've set up the ride and therefore I've sort of like predetermined this feeling that I'm after, which is, as I said, it's highly addicting. Surfing like you, you never satiated. Why is that? You always want another one. You always want more. Um. And but all through this process, the hunt, the enjoying, understanding the patterns, the chasing, the moment, the feeling. Um, there's a there's a tremendous sense of there's like a reward when all the elements have come together and you apply everything you've learned. It's a really cool feeling. I think you could say that about a lot of things in life, whatever your or your craft is.
Devon Howard: And for me, surfing isn't just like some waste of time thing, like that's part of it. That's a bonus to me. Like, hey, I'm not doing chores or I'm not at work. That's fantastic. I will take that. But it's also like a craft. It's like a, it's a, it's it's a way I express myself. Some people do that through building things out of wood in their garage or a number of other things. Um, so the style piece of it, it's just sort of come along with it. It never was like, I'm going to really think about this super duper hard. Um, and you just, you learn through time that they the style and the and the form, they sort of, like, are tied together, you know, and you kind of look at it this way, and then you go back and look at it the other way, and they really come together nicely. And if you fight them, you're surfing. You're not going to surf as well. If you're not surfing as well, you're not going to feel it as right. You won't feel that thing we just talked about. Um, and then consequently, not that not that that many people care, but you're surfing is going to be kind of ugly.
Michael Frampton: Thing is.
Michael Frampton: It'll.
Michael Frampton: Because when you are, when you're connected and you're efficient, it feels better. Simple as that. It feels better if you if you close your eyes and just imagine, like an image or a video section of someone who epitomizes style, are they? What are they feeling in the moment? Are they worried about what they look like? No, no. Are they are they are they scared? No. Are they putting in a ton of effort?
Devon Howard: I would say no.
Michael Frampton: It's in the.
Devon Howard: Moment. Yeah. There's probably a small number of people who. It's contrived, like you could go to Byron Bay. Sorry. Sorry. Byron Bay. They pick on you right now. You could go to Malibu. Um, pick your spot. Ah, maybe Montego Bay. I don't know, uh, way inside there. There's going to be places where there are folks that, for whatever reason, this. Well, like, who cares? There's no, like, laws or rules. Like, I'm not mad about this. It's just they're just observations. That's it. They're really controlled. It's just so contrived. They're sort of putting the form or I'm sorry, let me back up. They're putting the presentation ahead of the form. You know, they're worried about all the bells and whistles and the dressing, but, like, at the core of all the ingredients going into making this beautiful thing, they've got it all wrong, you know? And so, um, you.
Michael Frampton: Can always smell that though, I think.
Devon Howard: And it's a missed opportunity for them. Uh, does it change my life or your life or anybody listening? You do. You, man. Like, I'm very libertarian in that way. I don't really care. But, um, we're on a podcast called Surf Mastery, so we're we're we're nerding out. And if you're here to get better, don't get caught up in the presentation. Get caught up in the form. The presentation is going to come along. And yeah, it's just like this beautiful byproduct. You don't have to really. You shouldn't have to try to have good style. You should you should try to be good at surfing. And then once you have that confidence, you know, if you see a photo or catch a surf line, rewind. If you can see that far and you happen to notice that your your hands are bent at the wrist and going in instead of out, or you happen to notice that your fingers are wide apart, you could pull them in and it looks better, but it also centers and stacks you. You start feeling more stacked over your board, and once you start doing that, it starts improving. Your style just starts improving. And, um, it's interesting that tube riding, this is what we talked about with David the other day, I think. Or maybe we didn't, I can't remember, but he someone I was talking to you about. It's interesting that almost all good tube writing has good style. Most of it you You rarely see someone with really hideous style getting as sick barrel. Yeah.
Michael Frampton: So yeah, because the, the, the the wave will hit them in the butt with their post dance. They just don't they don't fit in their ugly.
Devon Howard: Yeah I think it's true. He's a lesson there that can be applied to other maneuvers like but but it's not always true. That good tube style now equates to this beautiful style of the face. You'll see what doesn't fall apart. Um. Why is that? I don't know exactly. Maybe the. I think one thing that could help with style, um, from a technique standpoint, is, um, don't rush your surfing. I've noticed, like, folks that, remember we were talking earlier about breaking trim, um, and seeing people that are trying to wiggle. They're sort of swaying. A lot of times it's the upper body that's swaying when that's not really helping them in any way. It's not benefiting the the ride. It's causing the board to lift out of the water and side to side motion, typically. And now you're breaking the trip. Now in a short board. A short board needs to be side to side, but it's also got to be pushed so that it's it's building momentum in a forward fashion. The people that are not very good are kind of not going anywhere, because they don't understand that. They're just sort of wiggling their arms and breaking the trim.
Devon Howard: Um, and I think if you just. Yeah, just like think about being a little bit more quiet, um, and, and being a little bit more quiet means you're not in a big hurry like you don't if you're not at a level where you need to try to get eight maneuvers in the wave, don't do it. Take take your time and get the two really nice maneuvers and those will feel really good. Be patient off the bottom when you're. Let's start from the beginning. You go and you paddle in. You go to do a bottom turn. Just be there in that moment with that bottom turn. Don't be thinking about the four moves you want to do down the line, because now it becomes this rut here. You're hurrying up the surfing, and now you're kind of like screwing up the pace of the ride. You're screwing up the pace of the wave. And when you do that, now you're out of sync. When you're out of sync, it doesn't feel or look good. So I think the best advice to like, how do I get good stop, start with the foreign and don't rush your surfing.
Devon Howard: Don't try to contrive it. Don't try to Like I'm gonna have. Make sure my hands are up here and I'll go like this. And I'm looking backwards and going, okay, that's go. You do you. But you know, that's not helping you surf better.
Michael Frampton: Yeah, yeah. You can you can be quick without being rushed.
Devon Howard: Exactly.
Michael Frampton: Like like a drummer that's drumming at 160 beats per minute. If they're ahead of the beat slightly. It sounds rushed, but if they're on the beat, it's in time. It's rhythm and they're nice and relaxed. They're still fast. They're just not rushed, utterly. And it's interesting you mentioned, like the hands curled and like this. If your hands are curled in like this, you will feel scared. Your physiology affects your emotions. That's a scared posture. That's a protective posture. So if you forcefully open up your hands, like Tony Robbins says, stand up tall and and straight and relaxed, you will feel better. But if you force yourself to smile, you will feel better inside. So I think that, you know, a bit of video analysis and analyzing your own style can actually and changing it can actually make surfing feel better as well. But, um, I love those tips. You just, um, said and it was a good summary and it's a great place to end. Devin, thank you so much.
Devon Howard: All right. I hope we, uh, made some sense there. It's fun to talk about it, because I've felt this stuff for a long time, but I don't really ever talk about it. And it's only just in recent times. And, um, I gotta thank Scott Hulett from The Surfer's Journal for getting the gears going in my mind of how to think about this stuff. Um, it's fun to share it, so I hope people get some value out of this conversation.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Definitely. I mean, we can if you come up with more thoughts on it, let me know. We get you back on and we'll expand because it's an important topic.
Devon Howard: Well, we're, um, we're in the middle of some fin placement on a mid lane, so I got to get back down there. So I also got this, um, dust down here.
Michael Frampton: All right. Thanks, Devin. I'll let you write. You get back to it.
Devon Howard: All right. Thank you. Michael. See you.
Devon Howard On Surf Mastery Podcast
Devon Howard On Surf Mastery Podcast
99 Rod Perez - Holistic Health Practices for Surf Wellness
Jul 17, 2024
Welcome to Surf Mastery Podcast, where we explore the fascinating intersections of life, sports, and the pursuit of challenges. In this episode, our host Michael John Frampton sits down with Rod Perez, a professional coach and founder of Holistic Pro Health Performance, to delve into the intricacies of longevity in mind and body wellness for surfers.
Rod Perez, known for his work with top athletes globally, including surfers like Joel Parkinson, discusses his holistic approach to surf coaching and health. His new book, "The Art of Longevity: Your Practical Guide to Total Mind and Body Wellness," draws on his extensive experience and aims to help people live healthier lives.
Episode Highlights:
● Background and Coaching Career: Rod shares insights from his coaching journey, working with athletes from different backgrounds and skill levels, emphasizing the importance of mobility, strength, and endurance for surfers.
● Common Injuries Among Surfers: He discusses prevalent injuries among aging surfers, such as knee and back issues, and explains how tailored training programs can aid recovery and enhance performance.
● Training Philosophy: Rod emphasizes the need for surfers to focus on mobility beyond flexibility and to build capacity through targeted exercises, including endurance training.
● Case Study - Joe's Journey: Rod highlights the success story of Joe, a client who overcame significant injuries and regained competitive form through focused training and lifestyle adjustments.
● Insights on Surfing and Movement: Drawing parallels between surfing style and gym movements, Rod explains how enhancing body control and motor skills can translate into smoother, more efficient surfing techniques.
● Longevity Strategies: He shares practical tips from his book on enhancing longevity, including the integration of recovery techniques like ice baths and sauna sessions to support overall health.
Rod's approach underscores the holistic nature of surf training, combining technical skill development with comprehensive physical conditioning tailored to surfers' specific needs. His insights provide valuable guidance for surfers looking to improve their performance and maintain their health over the long term.
For more detailed insights and tips, check out Rod Perez's book, "The Art of Longevity: Your Practical Guide to Total Mind and Body Wellness," available now.
98 Matt Parker - Choosing Boards and Breaking Surfing Rules
Jul 05, 2024
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, where we delve into the fascinating intersections of life, sports, and the art of mastering the surf. In this episode, our host Michael John Frampton sits down with Matt Parker from Album Surf to discuss the intricacies of surfboard shaping, the evolution of surf culture, and the joys of riding different types of boards.
Matt Parker is a seasoned surfer and shaper from Southern California who started crafting surfboards in his garage in 2001. Now, Album Surf is one of the largest surfboard companies, known for its diverse range of high-quality boards. Matt’s philosophy on surfboard design emphasizes the harmonious blend of curves and how they interact with the water, aiming to make every board feel like an extension of the surfer’s feet and mind.
Episode Highlights:
The Origins of Album Surf: Matt shares how he started shaping surfboards in his garage in 2001 and grew Album Surf into a renowned company.
Philosophy of Surfboard Design: Discussing his unique approach to shaping, Matt explains the importance of creating boards that blend seamlessly with the water.
Surfing in Southern California vs. New Zealand: A comparison of surf conditions and the surfing culture in these two iconic locations.
The Evolution of Surfboard Variety: Exploring the trend of surfers, including professionals, moving away from high-performance shortboards to experimenting with various types of boards.
Educational Insights: Michael and Matt discuss the importance of riding different boards to improve surfing skills and the misconceptions many surfers have about the type of board they should use.
Personal Anecdotes and Experiences: Matt and Michael share personal stories about their favorite boards and memorable surfing experiences.
Key Quotes:
"The surfboard is a constant blending of curves and how they interact with the water, making those curves feel comfortable, like an extension of your feet and your mind." - Matt Parker
"Are you actually having fun? That’s what it should be about, not just projecting competency and coolness in the lineup." - Matt Parker
"It's the best time to be alive as a surfer because you really have more options nowadays than you ever have in the past." - Matt Parker
Don’t forget to visit our new website for a freePDF download outlining Michael’s top five insights from the show, and reach out if you know anyone at YouTube to help resolve access issues!
Enjoy the episode and happy surfing!
Full Show Transcript:
Matt Parker- Welcome back to the Surf Mastery podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton. Today's guest is Matt Parker from album serf. But before we get into that, a couple of housekeeping items. Firstly, Serf Mastery has a new website, and included on that on the front page is a free PDF download outlining my top five insights from the show and the last eight years or so of focusing on improving my own surfing. Um, so go ahead and download that puppy. Also, does anyone know anyone on YouTube? I have been denied access to my YouTube account and have exhausted all other avenues and have had a dead end. So if anyone knows anyone at YouTube, please reach out. Mike at Serf mastery.com or you can DM me on Instagram as well. Onto the show. Today's guest, like I said, is Matt Parker from album surf. Matt is a surfer from Southern California, and he started shaping surfboards from his garage back in 2001. And now album surf is one of the largest, uh, surfboard companies around. Uh, they specialize in all types of boards. And let me read a little quote from Matt's website, which sort of summarizes the way he thinks about surfboards. This is a quote from Matt. The surfboard is a constant blending of curves and how they interact with the water, making those curves feel comfortable, like an extension of your feet. And your mind is so interesting. There shouldn't be any rules about what a surfboard looks like. I love that quote and you would have seen there's so many pros that when they aren't surfing on tour, they end up on these boards, including one of my favorite surfers of all time, Margo. Yes, one of the best free surfers around. Brendan Marginson is well worth a follow on Instagram as well. He started writing Matt's boards. Anyway, without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation with Matt Parker from album surf. Com two.
Matt Parker- How are things? Uh, how are things in New Zealand?
Michael Frampton - Are things going swimmingly?
Matt Parker- Always there. So you live in the prettiest place on Earth. How could it not?
Michael Frampton - Oh, yeah. You're not wrong. Although I have to admit, I do miss California.
Matt Parker- Did you have spent time out here before you lived here or just.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, I lived in, uh, I lived in Point Dume Malibu for four years. Oh, cool. So I was obviously in a little bit of a bubble surfing Little doom every day, but, uh, you know, the weather, the weather alone in Southern California, I kind of felt like it was a bit monotonous. After four years there, I almost missed winter. But having come back to New Zealand and actually experiencing the four seasons, I take California any day.
Matt Parker- Yeah, it's big news. When it rains here. It's like, yeah.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, no one can drive in the rain in California.
Matt Parker- No. Definitely not, definitely not.
Michael Frampton - And then, of course you can't. Well, you're not supposed to go in the water either.
Matt Parker- Uh, so. So whereabouts in New Zealand? What part are you at? Like, where do you surf at and all that?
Michael Frampton - I'm in a place called Hawkes Bay, which is on the east coast of the North Island. There's nowhere really famous surf wise around here. The surf is pretty average around here, actually. We have a mass. Uh, continental shelf. So the swell comes in with a, uh, just with almost no energy left in it unless it's a certain period that seems to sneak through. Um, so, yeah, around here is not so good for surfing, to be honest. I came back here to, you know, raise the kids and I think, yeah, that sort of thing.
Matt Parker- But there's pretty drivable though, right? I mean, you can get. Oh yeah.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's you know if you're willing to drive um then yeah you can get waves, probably get good waves almost every day. Uh, in New Zealand actually, if you're willing to drive and put up with a little bit of weather.
Matt Parker- Mhm. Not afraid of a little wind. Right. Find the blowing the right way. Yeah.
Michael Frampton - Exactly. Well that's another big thing is I remember in Southern California so many days there's just no wind.
Matt Parker- Yeah.
Michael Frampton - Where you don't really get that in New Zealand maybe the first two hours of the day there's not much wind, but you'd never get a day where it's glassy until midday, like in Southern California. That's rare here.
Matt Parker- Yeah. That's like the prototypical dreamy Southern California fall day where it's kind of glass a little bit offshore in the morning and kind of glassy and nice and sunny and warm all day with fun combo swells. That's kind of the ideal. It's like that a lot. I'm down in San Clemente. It's pretty clean down here, too. We live like a little valley, kind of, uh, that kind of keeps the wind cleaner here. I don't know if it's just protected a little bit from some of the, you know, more beach break spots up in Huntington and Newport, all those spots. But, um.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. No, I, I've spent a little bit of time down your way as well. The Surf lowered and I got to interview Archie on my way down there and I spent some time, um, I love surfing Swami's and just that whole Encinitas area. Spent some time down there?
Matt Parker- Yeah.
Michael Frampton - And, uh, what opened? Part of what I wanted to talk about today was, obviously surfboards. But I remember we interviewed Devon Howard, and so I got to surf with Devon and I was surfing this like it was a Stu Jensen 94. And I would just paddle. I would just paddle right out the back as far as you can at Little Doom and surf it like Sarno, almost just catch the swell and just get long, big sweeping rides. And Devon's like, you should just be on a glider. And I was like, what's a glider? And then so I just, I just went out and bought an 11 foot Josh Hall, and that's pretty much all I surf all of the time.
Matt Parker- Even further out. You weren't even like another hundred yards out would catch it even out the back. Yeah. It's amazing.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. And then I'm always swapping around boards. But that 11 foot board just taught me so much about surfing. Just the sheer volume and weight and size of the board. Just you have to think about reading the waves so differently and about you know, your the space around you with other people so differently. And then when you finally do jump back on a board, a short board or whatever, I found it so much easier and more fun and easier to sort of be present after having learnt how to surf such a big surfboard. Yo. Have you experienced anything similar with playing around with lots of different boards?
Matt Parker- Yeah, I, um, I, obviously I make boards and so I'm always writing something different. You know, most of the time it's rare that I ride the same board two days in a row. Um, and so I'm very used to, like the initial paddle out where, um, I, I can't try too hard, you know what I mean? I kind of have to just. Feel what the board is going to do and just kind of be open to what it feels like once I'm dropping in and just kind of riding the wave. And so it makes me, um, yeah, it's just a good little lesson every time because you can't, you can't force it. And so, uh, you remain a little bit relaxed and not try to do too much, and then you kind of feel it out in every wave is kind of like a you're learning a little bit more about what the board wants to do and what line it wants to take, and trying to figure out where the gas pedal is. And, and, uh, so that's like the discovery part of surfing for me because I surf, I tend to surf the same place every day. And it's a point break down near, uh, lowers and it's kind of a similar wave, but it's kind of a sectional point break that offers some variety. But it's the same place. You know, I'm surfing in the same spot all the time. And so the variety of boards, um, just kind of changes up. Um, it kind of removes expectations sometimes. I think sometimes if you have a board, you've written a ton and you're kind of like, oh, this is the kind of surfing I want to go do. And these are the, you know, these are the turns I'm going to do or whatever. And when you're surfing a little bit more blind to what the board is going to allow you to do, it just kind of, um, keeps you from having expectations. And then you're kind of, uh, you just find fun in different ways and new experiences every time you surf.
Michael Frampton - So I think that really good top level surfers are doing that on a much more refined and accurate level because they're always so close to where the wave is breaking. There's so much in the source and they're feeling all those little bumps and nooks and obviously those sorts of boards at that speed are ridiculously sensitive. So if they're not tuned in to that, it's just not going to happen. Whereas you and I are surfing bigger boards a little further away from the power source, we kind of can get away with not being tuned in, but when we do, they're aware.
Matt Parker- Yeah, their awareness level is so next level, so high. I like the little nuances and they can feel a lot of they can and can't always communicate verbally, but they definitely know what they're feeling and experiencing in a different way than most regular people.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. You know, what I found that's really [00:10:00] interesting is, all of the pros, well, not all of them. A lot of the pros, when you see them out free surfing or when they take a break off tour, then they're not riding high performance shortboards. You know, Josh Kerr is a great example. Um, you know, even Steph Gilmore and Kelly Slater with fire waves just riding different boards as soon as there's not a camera and a judge looking at them, they're like, I'm on this board. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I go down to the local beach and it's waist high and onshore and it's 11 seconds and there's people out there on toothpicks pumping and getting angry. But the pro even the pros when they're surfing good waves, they're not on those high performance short boards. Are you seeing a similar trend overall in Southern California?
Matt Parker- Uh, yeah. I mean, well, specifically with everybody that all the, all the guys and gals I make boards for. But no, no one that rides for us really does contest surfing. Most everyone is just kind of free surfing. And so they're definitely on the track of surfing, whatever feels good and experiencing a lot of different things. But yeah, Josh is a perfect example. I don't think he's touched a thruster since his last heat up pipe, honestly, when he retired and that was probably five years ago or something like that. Even in good waves and every kind of wave, whether he's in Indo or wherever it is, he's always writing something different. And uh, I think obviously like high performance shortboards surf. Amazing. We all love to watch surfing. We love watching contests and, you know, the sport of it all. It's always exciting and entertaining and all that. But I think that type of board, um, directs you to one type of surfing. There's, you know, like everyone's trying to kind of surf the ideal way that that board kind of pushes you to. And the judging and the contest structure is kind of, um, positioned around that ideal as well. So I think, um, when you remove that, that box that you're trying to operate in and you don't have to do the same turns and all that, you know, you're just freed up to do whatever you want to do. That's always going to be a more fun option. And for me personally, I am someone who makes boards, it's true. That's my favorite thing, is to see, uh, people that can surf at a world class level, see them surf a lot of different boards and see the different places those boards can go when it's put under the feet of very, very talented people. Because, um, because for the most part, you know, the most, most of the surf media, the most surf contests, you see these very high level surfers riding very similar type of equipment. So.
Michael Frampton - Um, yeah, I've always had this analogy in terms of car racing, whereas the pros in a contest, they're in a finely tuned formula one that's customized for their style. Right. And then for some reason, we want to go race around the local racetrack, and we think we need to be in one of those cars. And yeah, sure, that when the average driver is in a high performance car, yes, you can drive it around the track, but man, it's going to be bumpy. It's going to be shaking if you're not constantly turning the car. It's just not going to be as fun as getting in a V8 supercar that's nowhere near as fast or fine tuned, but is a little more. It's got a little more given it still goes fast. So that's what I'm wondering. You see these pros, when they're surfing outside of the contest, they don't necessarily want to be in a finely tuned formula one. They just want to be in a V8 supercar and just have a little less pressure and a little more give. How does that analogy stack up for you? The car racing one?
Matt Parker- Well, I like to me surfing really is about the feeling, right? And like the tactile feeling of driving a car that's fast and that wants to go and that you're feeling it. And there's a little bit of like, uh, you know, you're not going to, you're not going to crash right away, you know, like a regular driver. If they went behind the F1 car, they're probably going to crash pretty quick because they just can't handle it. Right. It's too technical to drive all that kind of stuff. So you get into something that has a better feel. But it is about the feeling. And you know, ultimately that's what we're chasing every time we surf. That's why we want to get another wave, is because you want to get that feeling again. And uh, and so the same with the pros that can surf at the highest level. You know, they're chasing the feeling the contest is like the job side of it. You know, it's ticking the box I feel in to win and do all that. But if they're freed from that, they're chasing the feeling of going fast and finding a tube and not having to fit in as many turns as they as they need to just to get the score, but to actually do the turn where the wave is, allowing them to or not, or just ride the wave.
Michael Frampton - So that makes sense. Well, yeah, because I'm always dumbfounded when you see so many surfers spending so much time and money on taking these high performances. You know, they watch stab in the dark and they want to buy the latest version of the ten short boards that they already own. It really doesn't make much sense to me. And I think things are changing, but there certainly is still a large percentage of surfers that fit in that category. Uh, do you think it's trending the other way with companies like yourself and even, you know, Channel Islands are broadening their range of boards? Um, I.
Matt Parker- Think it's for me, it definitely is the best time to be alive, to be a surfer, because you really have more options nowadays than you ever have in the past, and you really can ride anything. When I was when I was young, as a teenager in the 90s, surfing, it really was you. Everyone kind of had the same board. I rode the same board, no matter the conditions. It was like a six, three, 18.5, two and a quarter rockered out shortboard no matter what. If it was one foot, if it was six foot, whatever. So nowadays you really do like I think everyone's kind of experienced like, oh yeah, I can have a little bit more of a diverse quiver and it's okay if I'm riding a fish one day or I'm riding like a little stretched out worm another day, or if I'm riding a shortboard one day or whatever, it's like there's a little bit more, um, versatility and variety and, um, so it's a it's a great time to be alive, to be a surfer in that way. I think, um, uh, I just think that, yeah, there's just less rules, less rules about it, more enjoyment.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. Yeah. I guess the question is, the impetus of the show is education and inspiration for better surfing, really. And I guess when I take on a client myself personally, um, one of the first things I say to them is like, why do you want to? Why are you on that board? Like, this isn't you're not surfing double overhead barrels. Like that's what their board's made for. Like just try.
Matt Parker- Yeah, I think I've said this before, but I think a lot of, um, uh, just the culture of surfing is a little bit like, no, everyone wants to look competent. Right. And so a lot, a lot of surfing culture is the perception that you put out there. Right? Like, I'm the cool guy. I got the right board, I got I'm not a kook, you know, I'm wearing the right trunk. So I've got the right wetsuit and I've got the right traction pad and whatever it is, I've got the cool label. This is what I'm, you know, because a lot of people are more concerned with what, how others perceive them in the lineup, because sometimes, you know, how you're perceived in the lineup, gives you status and gives you, you know, if you're competent, you can kind of you get more waves and you get a little bit more respect from people around you. And so there's a little bit of a game that people play in trying to, um, project competency and cool and a cool factor. And I'm not a kook. And so sometimes people put too much weight on that and they're more concerned with what they look like on the beach or in the car park than they actually are.
Matt Parker- And then the enjoyment they're actually getting out of it themselves, you know, like, are you actually having fun? If you mentioned like the guys that are flapping around and having a miserable time. There's always people out in the water that are having you kind of wonder sometimes. Do you actually like, what are you actually getting out of this? Do you actually enjoy what you're doing? And, uh, I don't know, every different stroke for different folks. People get different things out of it. And maybe that little social status thing is more important than the actual surfing. And I, I think that's obviously short term thinking because and it's like, that's a hollow chase that you're after because you're never going to be satisfied with that. And you shouldn't be. I don't think you should be spending too much time pursuing things for the approval of others. You know, surfing is kind of a solitary pursuit, right? You're you're the one that's doing it, and you're the one that's riding the wave, and you're the one that's having that moment and feeling it. If you're doing it for what other people think about you, I think you're missing. You're missing the point, you know?
Michael Frampton - So, yeah, well, I definitely fit it in that category for a while. Um, we all do.
Matt Parker- At some point, you know, in a little bit. We all do. You know everyone? No. Like I said, everybody who surfs wants to look competent. Kelly Slater doesn't want to be a kook. He wants to be the cool guy in the lineup. We all kind of have that feeling to a certain degree.
Michael Frampton - Um, and there's something to be said, you know, surfing that high performance shortboard in all types of conditions you will develop a very intimate relationship with that surfboard. And when the waves do turn on, you're going to be pretty used to it. And then, you know, you're probably going to have a better surf on that day. Um, but was there a point in your surfing [00:20:00] life where that changed, like where you started riding different boards, more volume, etc.?
Matt Parker- Um, yeah. Like I said, I grew up in the like, I started surfing in the late 80s, early, and then through the 90s, I was a teenager and then in the early 90s and, uh, back then it was really about just being competent enough and you just riding what everybody else wrote. And that was really all that was available was just kind of your standard shortboards for, um, I guess for, for me as, like a general public, you know, not in, you know, I didn't have any my dad surfed a little bit when he was young, but I didn't I didn't come from like a long line of family surfing and all that kind of stuff. And so probably I, I started getting curious, more curious about surfboards. Um, and that's kind of what led me into shaping a little bit is that I was interested. I, you know, you get back then this is pre-internet really, you know, but you would get little. To see different little videos. You'd see different things that were just like, oh, you know, like, that looks fun. That looks like more fun. I was surfing Newport Beach. It's two foot closeouts most of the time it's not good. It's, you know, it's hard. Like surfing is hard out there and you're riding equipment that's bad.
Matt Parker- So you just have a lot of frustrating sessions and you just like, just gotta, you know, just you would see videos, you'd see guys in good waves. And so that was always like I was interested in, um, trying different boards to get a different experience. You know, I was competent enough, but I was by no means pro or anything like that. I was good enough out in the lineup to get waves and to surf and fine, but it was not. But I always felt like those boards held me back, too, you know, just the normal boards, because they kind of, you know, they you just have like, it can't be this frustrating all the time. So the interest in different boards. So I would go to different shops and I would want to get a board that was different and I could never really find one. You know, it can never really find what I was looking for. And then, um, even when I would order custom boards, you know, from local shapers, you would try to explain what I had in my brain, what I was like trying to go for. And it was never it never like it was probably my fault for not communicating that clearly what I was really after, but it never was it.
Matt Parker- And so I was, uh, in design school and art school and taking all these like, sculpture and drawing and painting classes and stuff. And so it was just kind of a natural extension to get a blank and some tools and kind of experiment and just try to make something without any restrictions of what it had to look like, because I was just fooling around, you know. So that was probably the, the, the interest. And that was probably at the time when, like, um, things were coming more online and you had more access to just different things other people were doing. And so you could kind of see, uh, you know, your world was kind of opened up as far as, like, oh, there's like other shapers and all these places making different things. And there are a lot of cool things out there that I just hadn't really experienced and I didn't have. I had never tried or felt or seen in person, but like, it just kind of expanded what was possible. And, the interest level and surfing really grew. And my fun level expanded too, because it was like everything was opened up more.
Michael Frampton - Um, and then it sounds like the developer or the birth of album surfboards was quite organic. You saw essentially a gap in the market, right?
Matt Parker- Yeah. Why? Initially, for years I was shaping boards with no, no intention of it being a thing, being a business or anything. It was more I just wanted to try different things. And, um, the creation, the creation part of it was really fun, like just designing and trying something and the tactile thing of making something with your hands and then seeing it finished and then going and writing it was very addicting. It was very, um, yeah, just kind of opened my mind a lot. And it was just it's just it made, um, the exploration process of trying different boards, satisfying even if the surf was bad. So in the old days, you know, as a kid when I was a teenager and you're trying to just, like, do all the moves you see in the videos and you're having frustrating sessions because the waves aren't good most of the time, and you're writing boards that aren't good. You just surfing wasn't as fun. And so when I was, when I was making boards and exploring and trying these different types of shapes, just going out and seeing that it worked and making it like get down the line and get the feeling of speed that I was kind of envisioning with it was satisfying.
Matt Parker- So the waves didn't have to be good, and my surfing didn't have to be amazing. And I was still, like, very satisfied and validated and surf stoked. I was inspired to go make another board and surf more because I wanted to try out these things that I was, um, that I was playing around with, but. I did that for years. Hundreds, probably a couple thousand boards before it was even, like a real, um, business I was doing. I was a designer by trade, and so I was doing like graphic design work, and that was kind of what my, uh, employment or job focus was, and was making boards was like this side, this just kind of creative art project on the side that I could just have fun with and I could usually like, um, sell, sell one to pay for another one and, you know, find it, you know, put it up like in the used rack at a shop and sell it on consignment. Just turn it over enough to learn the craft without any pressure of having to be a professional at doing it.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. So. So did your entrepreneurial journey begin with the album agency?
Matt Parker- Yeah, exactly. So that was I was running my own business and just doing client work, client design work that way. And um, the building the surfboards and kind of treating it like my own little micro brand was kind of also an extension of the graphic design side. So I was able to kind of like, you know, you're doing you're doing work on for clients in industries that you're not really interested in, you know, and I was like, here's, here's a chance for me to play around with design and create it and kind of like make this a fun little, like. You know, brand for fun without any, you know, strings attached. Yeah. That's pretty.
Michael Frampton - And what inspired you to make the leap? To turn the surfboards into the main business?
Matt Parker- Uh, there was just, uh. Well, I was doing it at night, so I would be working, like, in the day, like client work and, um, uh, designing and and, uh, getting projects done. And then I'd go home and have dinner with the family and then put the little kids to bed and go in my garage or go in my backyard and shape at night. And I was doing this a lot. So I was working a lot. I was working a full time plus job and then shaping on the side and demanding just kind of like, you know, we're just kind of we would get out, you know, I was making boards that were probably interesting and that resonated with other people that they hadn't seen either. And there was something unique about what we were doing. And so, um, the age of when we are, you know, in this last 15 years where things are just more accessible and people can find you easier, you know, it just kind of the awareness of what I was doing got out there probably faster than if it was 30 years ago. No, the people in my little community would have known. But then. So then people would just want to order a board, and then that just kind of gets to this, uh, point where, uh, the demand kind of exceeds like the time on the other side. And so just kind of realized like, oh, there's, uh, I think and by that point, too, I had made enough boards and had enough awareness of, like, just the surf industry and kind of where things, where things were that you could kind of see opportunities, uh, or openings in the market. And like, here we have something different to say, and there's people that are interested in what we're doing. So yeah, let's make a little run at it.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. Well you mentioned supply and demand. I mean that is why business exists. So obviously the culture is changing. You know, people are more interested in, uh, you know, different shapes. And, uh, I would say a higher level of longevity. You get a much more longevity out of a surfboard like yours as opposed to a pop out, um, white shortboard for sure.
Matt Parker- I think the other thing, too, was I made boards. I made some boards for some good surfers, some pros and things like that, and they worked really well. And so there was kind of like this validation of like, oh, okay. Like, I mean, I knew like I was like I said, I was competent enough to know that they worked for my level of surfing, and I was having an amazing time at having fun. And my friends were. But then, um, when you when I made some boards for guys that could surf really well, and then they had more fun on that too. It was kind of like, oh, you know, maybe there really is something a little different that we're doing that does work and makes sense of like we should kind of should follow that path because there's, there's something there that hasn't been tapped into yet, and it resonates with guys that can surf at the highest level. So we should kind of pursue that.
Michael Frampton - Um, that leads me into a question I have about let's get into your designs a little bit. So. I remember I first got into surfing fish surfboards. I had a Christiansen fish that I used to surf a lot. And then I remember one day the waves turned [00:30:00] on, um, and rising swell. And next thing, next thing you know, I'm surfing almost double overhead waves. And I find man to to be able to surf that fish in those real good solid waves, I would have to move my feet closer to the inside rail to do a bottom turn, and then I go up to do a top turn. It would just slide outside. This is not the right surfboard, but at the same time, I don't want to be surfing a high performance shortboard. And then you look at someone like Josh Kerr surfing the twins men or the, um, insanity. I think it is in the mentor wise in double overhead waves getting barreled and doing airs on what is, I guess, hybrid or alternative high performance shape. Now, is that the kind of board that only he can ride in those waves? Or is it designed so that anyone can have a good time in those overseas waves?
Matt Parker- Well, I think there's a misnomer to me, there was always a misnomer in the marketplace that high performance shortboards are for like real surfing and alternative boards are just, you know, for fun or whatever. And, um, I think if you look at the trajectory of surf of surfboards from, you know, longboards logs up into the early 60s, mid 60s to how quickly it progressed and revolutionized, like what people were riding in such a short window of time. There's so many, um, like, design steps along the way and different types of boards along the way that, like, didn't get their full, uh, fleshing out. Right. So there's a lot of ideas in that time and I, I mean, Twin Fins is a perfect example of that. Like where twin fins were really at like their height from, you know, 78 to 81 or something like that, or, you know, 77, like, what is it, 3 or 4 years or something like that, where twin fins were like the, you know, high performance little hot dog board that people were riding and that was with kind of like, I mean, nowadays, like that window of time is a is a blink, you know, three years. It's like most of us have boards that we've surfed for five, six, eight years. You know what I mean? So three years is nothing. And so, you know, you just see like, oh, the fins they were writing, they didn't have enough time to develop the right fins for them, and they didn't have enough time to think about fin placement and, and designing the rail shape and bottom contour to fit like where that goes and like what type of wave that needs to be surfed in and what blanks were available and different glassing, you know, layups and all that.
Matt Parker- It was just like it was just too fast. And so, um, I've always felt like, um, alternative boards, twin fins are not, um, like a, a cop out of, like, I'm just I'm just going to screw around. Like, it's like any sort of design, any, any, any place. I'm going to take a surfboard. There's like an intended, uh, performance or design intention for that concept. And so the concept is meant to perform at a high level. It's just a different way of doing it. And um, and so like with Josh, those boards, like he has more fun and more freedom, more speed, they're easier to turn on a twin fin, you know, and so if you can make them and design it to be able to handle any type of wave, there's there's certainly obviously capable and validated by him and others in those types of waves. And so it's it's just a matter of, um, uh, backing it, backing the concept and then proving the concept and then iterating the idea and the concept enough to prove it out and refine it and get it right so that it actually does work in those types of ways.
Matt Parker- But I think sometimes when, uh, like, uh, you know, shapers or whatever, if, if they're focused on one thing, if they're focused on high performance shortboards, their version of a twin fin or a fish is like a is not the main design intention. It's almost like a little, it's like a spin off of their shortboard idea. And it's like they take their shortboard idea and they kind of fatten it a little bit and just put two fins in it instead of three and, you know, maybe make it a swallowtail. We'll call it the alternative board. And to me, I'm more focused on the concept of a high performance swim fin that maybe surfs better or is more of an advantage than a shortboard would be in those waves. And so it's like, how would I design it? Where do the fins go? What does that mean for the bottom contour? Like what dimensions are we talking about. You know, and so there's so like the funnest thing about surfing is there's so many variables in the, in the types of waves in the swell and the wind conditions and the interval and the where you're surfing, the type of surfing you want to do. And so there's kind of like these endless rabbit holes of design and conceptual thinking. You can go down and create whatever. And it's so fun too, because I mean, I think surfers should be, should be very grateful and realize how fortunate that we all are.
Michael Frampton - That we we we.
Matt Parker- Um, participate in this pursuit where we can make all sorts of different things all the time. I mean, if you're like, if you're driving or you're, uh, skiing or whatever it is, it's much more difficult to you're not going you're not going to go make a, a ten different concepts of skis that you're going to go try out every time, every different time you go surfing. But with the surfboards you can make, you know, I can go surf today, have a session out there, get the pros and cons of the Board of Writing. I come back to design something based on that idea, shape it that day, gloss it, and be surfing something next week.
Michael Frampton - Mm.
Matt Parker- Something that I was intending to design for. That's just like a, it's just a cool thing that we're, we all kind of. And surfing small enough surf industry is small enough that if you're, uh, uh, motivated like you can have access to any of that, it's relatively, you know, for what that is for the for the, uh, access to that kind of R&D and design like options for different types of boards. It's relatively expensive, not super cost prohibitive. You know, if you're if you're into it, if you're committed to it, it's affordable enough. You can, you know.
Michael Frampton - Mhm. Yeah I think the importance of a quiver is. Yeah I mean I don't know whether that's why you chose the name album. But you know it makes me think of a good album like Pearl jam ten which is ten really good songs, all with different moods but still the same album. You know, you can sit, you can sit down and listen to the album, or you can sit down and listen to one song and I almost see a. A surfboard quiver is like that. It's, you know, has ten surfboards that are for you, but for the different types of moods and the waves that you're surfing. But it does make me think, because there's also that Swiss Army knife surfboard that kind of does pretty good in most waves and tends to excel in sort of head high. Good waves, for sure. What's that? What's that surfboard for you within your quiver? What would that Swiss army knife board be?
Matt Parker- Well, that would probably be like a board I would travel with. Right. Because you're something that you would have that you'd want to have, um, versatility for. And that would probably be like Victor's model. Like a banana. Bunches like a quad, asymmetrical quad. It's kind of a hybrid. It's definitely a performance board, but it definitely is easier to go fast. And it paddles a little bit better. And it turns out to be super easy. And it's versatile in a lot of kinds of ways. Um, it's probably something like that. Um, honestly, uh, if you have the right mindset, though, almost any board in your quiver should be able to fill that slot, I think.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, that's a good point.
Matt Parker- Yep. It's all I mean, there's a to me there's there's, um, you know, there's sometimes there's people sometimes we all do it where we're no matter what board you're surfing, people try to surf the same way. Right. They have like they're the way I bought them turned. This is my turn. I do, and this is my little re-entry idea. And you'll watch them out there. And it doesn't matter if they're riding their fish or mid length or short board or whatever it is, they kind of surf the same. And uh, that's fine. That's totally fine. But I, I think it's good to, um, be a little bit more open to what the board wants to do and the type of surfing that board is going to allow you to do and, and how it might open up the kind of surfing you do and the enjoyment you get out of that kind of surfing so that it makes you a little bit more versatile in what your approach is like. Victor Bernardo, who writes for us, is like is a really good example of that because I think a lot of times people when they're like when they're building a quiver, they are a little bit too narrow in scope or what like range, they're they're going for like I it happens all the time where I'll have people that they kind of they want their fish and their short board and a twin fin and everything to kind of be all within, like a little volume range, like, here's my leader, here's the leader I [00:40:00] ride, and my boards need to be within 30 to 30 1.5l.
Matt Parker- And they try to fit like all their boards. And it's like, I think you're missing out if you're thinking about it in that way. So Victor is this perfect example because he's a young man, 26, 27 years old, the highest level professional surfer can surf as well as anybody in the world. Um. Competed on the show, did all that stuff right. But if you look at his quiver, it is like. From five 0 to 8 zero and everything in between. I mean, obviously he has access to a lot of boards, which helps. It makes it easy to ride a lot of stuff. But still his mindset is like his, if you were just talking about what volume he writes, he writes from 29l to 42l, you know what I mean? So his range is like this and these are all. Different types of what I would call performance sports. So even yesterday or this week we were in Hawaii.
Matt Parker- He's still there right now. But we were on the North Shore this past week and he was riding A68 bungee roundtail, which is normal. His normal version is like a five 8 or 5 nine, and he was riding the six eight roundtail version that was plus volume. It was actually one of Brendan Morrison's boards that Margo left there in Hawaii. When Margo went back to Australia, Victor took it out and got a couple amazing waves of pipe, you know, on that on that board. And so it's just I and definitely not limiting his performance, actually enhancing his performance because it was something that unique that he wouldn't have maybe taken out normally, but it just kind of opened up his surfing. And I think if you remain a little bit more, um, open, open to what the board wants to do and what the waves are asking you to do, you will just have more fun. Yeah. Surfing gets to, like you were saying, just like it started right when you're riding the glider and then you go jump onto your shore board, your surfing is better because you're kind of your fundamentals are better. Your timing is a little different. You know, your mindset is a little different.
Michael Frampton - So yeah, I think every board you ride opens up. You have to read the waves a little differently and look for different lines. And like you said, your timing has to be better. Or maybe it can be more lax or you're looking for a different type of wave or whatever. So I think it really just helps you to read the ocean better. I think that's the main reason why different surfboards, uh, can improve your surfing when you jump back on your favorite board because you just read the wave with more detail. Writing that glider changed my realization of how big and how fast of a section I can actually make because those boards go ridiculously fast. Um, yeah. And I surprised myself many times with what I could, what section I could get around and that literally translated to surfing other boards. I'm going to try and make that section. I'm going to get a bit lower and stay on the whitewash a bit longer. And lo and behold, surfing that big crazy board just had me making different types of waves and changing my whole perspective on reading the ocean. Um, it sounds like I agree with that. It sounds like Victor Victor needs to go longer as well.
Matt Parker- He does. He rides bigger. But I think the point of a querer is to make you surf as much as possible. So no matter what the waves are, you have the right board to have fun that day. And that's really the, to me, the thing that improves you as a surfer the most is water time. So if you're surfing a lot, if you're surfing more days than you're not, you're going to get better. You read the ocean better your time, your timing is better, your strength, your paddle strength is better. All that stuff kind of comes into play the more you surf. And so if you have a quiver that motivates you to want to surf and makes you kind of no matter what the waves are, you're like, oh, I'm stoked to go out today because I have the right board and I'm going to have more fun. And you see those guys struggling and you're having fun and they're miserable. It's like, oh yeah, you made the right choice, and you have the right board to just get out in the water a lot.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, I think you nailed it that that's that is the point of a quiver. So it's as simple as that. And you're right. I mean, the best thing that ultimately that you can do for your surfing is not only to surf more, but to surf more waves. And if you're on the right surfboard for the condition, you are going to catch more waves when it's knee high. Here at my local point break and there's no one out, I'm I'm literally giddy because I have an 11 foot Josh Hall and no one can compete with that because no one.
Matt Parker- How did you ship that thing to New Zealand? How did you get that point there? That's what I want to know.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, I know, it.
Matt Parker- Just.
Michael Frampton -I, I filled a container with all of my stuff. So I've got, I've got my weight, I got my weighing rich nine eight and everything. Everything here. So how. How would you if I just asked you an open question? What is a surfboard?
Matt Parker- Uh, well, there's the, you know, it's foam and fiberglass and resin and all that. Right. Uh, but I think it's just it's a tool to allow you to go ride the waves. So whatever that is, it, um, comes in, comes in many forms, that's for sure. Yeah. Uh, I think it's, uh, depending on, you know, the a surfboard for pipeline, like we were where we were at last week is not a surfboard for Upper Trestles, where I surf most every other day. Very, very different tools for those different, different types of waves. And so I think it's a tool that gets you to, to catch a wave and ride a wave. Yeah.
Michael Frampton - Simple. How would you describe your current relationship with surfing in the ocean, and how has it evolved over the years?
Matt Parker- Um, I surf a lot. To me, it's the most important thing in my job as a designer and shaper and surfboard manufacturer is being in the water as much as I can. So I, I surf 5 or 6 days a week. And, uh, it's kind of a like daily ritual getting out there. And so I surf a lot. Um, I, I'm 47 now, so I'm definitely past my peak of, uh, I've my, my better my best days are behind me as far as, like strength and ability level and all that kind of stuff. But I definitely have more fun surfing now than I ever have in my life. And, uh, I get more enjoyment out of it and I have a better perspective on it. And so, um, you just appreciate different things about sessions that you, you skipped and you missed when you're young and immature. And so, you know, with age comes wisdom. And so I definitely yeah, I appreciate it. Every session I go out I just have a better mindset for, uh, just appreciating the opportunity to go out and surf. I live in a place where I have things like surf boards to ride and just waves most every day that are rideable. It's a real blessing. So I think that my mindset makes me appreciate it more now than ever. So. Mhm.
Michael Frampton - Yeah I like that. What's I'm going to go back to. So we talked about the Swiss army, the single board. What if you could take what if you could choose three boards to travel with or just to have what those three boards be.
Matt Parker- It's, you know it's funny we were because we're talking about quivers. Right. And I'm actually like, I, I don't have a great quiver because I don't have boards. I hold on to that long. The problem for me is that I'm always, uh, I'm always doing R&D and and working on new models and new boards. And so it's, it's ever changing. So my answer would probably be that if you asked me next month, it would probably be different than it would be a month ago. So it changes all the time. But if I was going to like where we live, going down to Mexico, go down there all the time and surf the points, I would for sure take some form of a fish. I've been riding, um, a version of Asher Pacey's Sunstone with a little hip, and I've been riding it as a quad a bunch lately, and I've been riding it with, um, twin fin like upright twin fins in the lead boxes and little small trailers and the quad trailer boxes, and been having a good old time on that, so I would definitely bring one of those. I'd probably bring a, uh, like a bigger board, like, uh, like one of Margot's models in Vesper or a Delma, which is like a stretched out, kind of like a slot channel. Concave bonds or little bottom quad. I definitely bring one of those. I can hang in good surf, too. And they're really nimble, easy to turn for a big board. I'll ride those six, 8 to 7, 2 to 7, four, seven, six. I have an 80I take out on that all the time. Um, definitely take that. And then I'd probably take something asymmetrical, some sort of a disorder model, which is like my high performance kind of like foolish rails outlines shifted and [00:50:00] or a bungee. Like I was saying, it's probably something to at least like to cover the bases. Yep.
Michael Frampton - Okay, cool. I'm taking a whale shark, a Vespa and an insanity.
Matt Parker- Oh that's good. That's a good call to the, uh, yeah. The whale shark would tick that glider box for you for sure. Uh, so I.
Michael Frampton - Want one so bad just by reading the description. That's it. Yeah.
Matt Parker- Uh.
Matt Parker- When you're talking about that build up of that section and you're just in so early and you have fun for me, the fun of those boards is that kinetic energy of like, the speed building, like you build the speed and maintain the speed and build the speed some more. And it's just a very satisfying feeling. It's just me and I. We make longboards and I enjoy longboarding. But I prefer it if I'm riding a big bull like a big board. I prefer a glider for a big twin, like a whale shark. I have a little bit more fun just because I. I probably surf more off the back foot than I do in a walking and walking the nose and all that kind of stuff.
Michael Frampton - So yeah. Same. Yeah. It's amazing if you, if you got your if you're used to it and you get your timing right, you can step back on an 11 foot board and do a cutback. And like it's so satisfying in the and you're right, it's the main reason the maintenance of the momentum of one of those big boards is such an incredible feeling. And it's amazing what sections you can make. And I've had some of the longest rides ever. Oh, I bet in and on what most people would seem as unmakeable waves just by taking that high line and trusting it. It's uh. Yeah, it's an incredible feeling.
Matt Parker- Riding gliders is like it's own form of riding a foil board. It's like you're almost ride those boards. You ride those waves that, um, you know, no one else can really get into depth. Length of ride is insane on those. Yeah.
Michael Frampton - And it's, um, Joel Tudor says it's the ultimate goal, right? Is Skip Frye.
Matt Parker- Oh, yeah, for sure.
Michael Frampton - It's the end game.
Michael Frampton -Uh, but it's, uh, I mean, I've, I've surfed that board in. I was a few years ago. We had it in Malibu. There's a little doom. There's an outer reef that breaks when you get those, those 18 second northwest swells. I took my glider out there and it was double overhead barreling, and I was like, wow, maybe I shouldn't have bought this. But I managed to get such a high line and set the rail so early that I could just avoid the barrel and still have and still catch the waves and have such a rad time. So there's such versatile boards if you know how to surf them.
Matt Parker- And you're doing your own step offs.
Michael Frampton - Basically.
Matt Parker- Oh it is towed in out the back. Yeah. It's just like being able to paddle that fast. It's amazing.
Michael Frampton - Oh yeah. And that's the thing. You can pedal around so much. That's what I like about them so much too if you can see a section over there. You can just paddle over to it.
Matt Parker- And that board's going to last you forever. 20 years from now, you'll still be searching roughly. You'll have that. You'll have that thing forever. Yeah. Which is special.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. Was that so? Obviously it sounds like you've experienced writing. Was that the inspiration for the whale shark writing? Gliders.
Matt Parker- Yeah. Just write just just because like I was saying, I'm not like I'm not a longboarder. That's walking on the nose. And you know, I'm more into just trim and glide and that feeling. And obviously you want to have a board that you can ride for us on those longboard days when it's really small and it's just soft and just little open faces. And so that was my preference was to ride that style of board. And so it was. It's just for me it's like an extension of the fish. Obviously it's taking A56 fish and making it ten six and so on. So the same kind of principle is a little bit for me. It's just putting it with a really long rail and with a different, you know, sort of rocker to fit that wave face.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. Yeah. Just a side note for listeners, if you haven't written a longboard or a log, don't go out and buy a glider. It's, it's get used to a long board first because there are a lot of surfboards. And you're if you don't know how to ride them, you're just going to hurt someone.
Matt Parker- You're nine. Four was a perfect little entry point.
Michael Frampton - Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Now soft tops. I wanted to ask you about soft tips. You guys are making soft tops. I haven't seen or touched or ridden one of your soft tops, but they look quite different to the Cosco or the int style ones. What's your point of difference with soft tops?
Matt Parker- We make them in a few different places. We have uh, some that we make that are like injected foam. And so it's where we actually took my shape to board and we made a mold, I shaped a few boards and we made molds off of these finished shaped boards. And that allows you to really put in design detail into that mold. And so like one of them has a little channel bottom, you can put real thin boxes in them. Um, they're obviously not high performance because they're phonies, you know what I mean? But there's a different mindset. There's the right day for that. Even if you surf well, obviously for beginners, they're great because you can surf them into the sand and they just float easy to catch waves. They're kind of a little bit um, they're a little bit slower. So the pacing of them kind of matches the wave when you're just kind of learning to like, ride the trim and ride the like the speed of the wave. So for people, learning is great, but for people that know how to surf, it's like those days when it's closing out and it's on the sand, or you just want to go out and have fun and fool around.
Matt Parker- It's something different. So, um, so those ones we do and those are made in the US and there's just like injection foam molded soft tops. And then we also make some in Peru that are, uh, by the surfers in Peru, which are pretty sick. They're kind of more, they've got, um, a foam core and they have stringers and they're kind of like a slick bottom, like, uh, like some of the soft tops, you see. But they actually have like, real shape and they have a better flex to them. And there's real thin boxes. And those are kind of like, uh, a kind of a cool in-between where if you're like a kid or you're someone who's like kind of progressing, it's a great board to kind of progress on because you can actually turn them and you can surf them pretty decently and they're less, you know, less expensive and all that. They're made in a surf country by surfers, which is pretty cool.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I've got a 96 INT that I absolutely love. Um and I've always huh.
Matt Parker- Ah It is got really good.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Frampton - And it lasted quite a while actually. It's still going. I actually surfed it every day when I was doing lessons for a long time and then would just end up catching loads of waves on it. I love them so much because it's a boat, right? The nine six int, it's a thick, big surfboard, but because it I think because it flexes so much, it's you can ride it in lots of different types of waves and actually have it actually really turn it much easier than the same amount of surfboard if it was a stiff sort of a is that why? And then you watch Jamie O'Brien surf them and pipe like.
Matt Parker- Well, it's just funny.
Matt Parker- It’s sometimes it looks like he has the right board for them which is insane. He's obviously a.
Matt Parker- Freak but that's.
Matt Parker- But to me the point of it is, it's like it's a mindset thing. When you're riding those boards, you're kind of like, you're not you're definitely not trying to win a contest. When you're riding one of those, you're definitely going out there to have fun and kind of goof around, which is really good. This is a good reset for surfing, I think, as you kind of, you know. You can't try too hard. We just.
Matt Parker- Got out there and.
Matt Parker- It's much easier to kind of give, give a wave away to someone else. You're not you're not going to be back paddling people to get waves when you're on those. And so you're it's just it's a good mindset to reset and have fun on them. And that's why it's amazing how many sessions you have on those where you have a lot of fun, because your mindset is in a good place and you're not you're not overdoing it, you're not overcooking it, and you're better. Perspective.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, yeah, I guess you're not too worried about it cracking. If you miss time, something close to the sand or the board hits you a little bit, it's not as bad. Yeah, I've always enjoyed it. I've always enjoyed the novelty of riding a soft top. And it's stoked to see you guys making some, some, some more refined looking ones.
Matt Parker- Yeah. I mean, the idea is obviously still there. The point is that they're soft tops. But if we can kind of come at it from a different angle, there's no need for us to go to the same factory that Wave storm or Cat surf makes and then just put different graphics on a soft top. Those already exist, right? Like we don't need to just have our that's just another commodity. We don't, we don't need to make another one of those. But if we can like if we can make something that's a little unique or that offers something different from everything else that's out there, and it gives a different feeling and we explore different things, then cool. We'll try it out and we'll give it a go. So.
Michael Frampton - Um, cool. Well, Matt, thank you so much for your time. I got one more question I want to leave you with before we sign off, which is what's your best and worst surf advice? That you ever received?
Matt Parker- Yeah, I would see. I would say me too. But the worst would be.
Matt Parker- I mean, the.
Matt Parker- Best would definitely be like we've been talking about is like, uh, I've said this and I've said this before, this is kind of like my running theme a little bit as far as, like, choose the board, you know, when you're going to decide what you're going to ride. Like, think about if there was no one else on the beach and no one else is out in the water like you're talking about that day when you're happy and you're the only one out. Like, what would you actually ride? What do you actually really have the most fun surfing on? And that could be a short board. It could be a high performance short board. You could be. That's the day you take it out because you're not, you know, you're kind of kooky on it, but you want to get good and that's what you want to get out of it. But to me it's like I pick the board that if I don't do it to for the approval of others, you know, like choose what you really want to ride and what you really want to experience and just go do that and go have fun and I think you'll have the most fun. Um, I'm trying to think, like what? Uh, maybe that, um, you need to have an epoxy board for a wave pool. That's the worst.
Matt Parker- That's that. That's it. I don't know how applicable that is, but.
Michael Frampton - I think it's going to be more and more applicable very soon.
Matt Parker- Well, I think and maybe that goes in line with what I think there are in surfing. There shouldn't be hard and fast rules. You know, sometimes there's like these perceptions and there's hard and fast rules like this is what you got to do and this is the way you gotta do it. And I don't like surfing. Doesn't have to like who says who don't have to do.
Matt Parker- It's that way.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. There's a famous surfer I can't remember. Is it Kelly Slater? I think he surfs a door.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, you can. You can surf anything. Even an old door.
Matt Parker- Exactly, exactly. I know a table. I think he surfs a table, like upside down.
Michael Frampton - Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And isn't there a video with Taj Burrow and Chris Ward all surfing, all sorts of objects. Yeah. So yeah, there's no rules, right?
Matt Parker- Like, why are we doing this? What are we doing this for? We want to have fun. Just be out in the ocean. So.
Michael Frampton - Yeah. Exactly. Uh, well, Matt, thank you so much for your time, man. Appreciate it.
Matt Parker- Yeah.
Matt Parker- Great to chat with you. Cool.
Michael Frampton - All right. Simple as that. Thanks, man.
Matt Parker- Yeah. Good to meet you.
Michael Frampton - You too.
Matt Parker on the Surf Mastery Podcast
97 Guy Kawasaki - Tech Guru Discovers Surfing at 60
Jun 25, 2024
Welcome to Surf Mastery Podcast, where we explore the fascinating intersections of life, sports, and the pursuit of challenges. In this episode, our host Michael John Frampton sits down with Guy Kawasaki to discuss the joys and trials of picking up surfing at 60, his unique philosophy on parenting and life, and the profound lessons learned along the way.
He is well-known for his influential role as Apple's Chief Evangelist in the 1980s and his significant contributions to Canva. Beyond his professional achievements, his passion for surfing, which he took up in his 60s is a profound metaphor for life's lessons.
Episode Highlights:
Surfing at Sixty: Guy shares his inspiring journey of starting to surf at the age of 60, motivated by his children's passions. Unlike many parents who impose their hobbies on their children, Guy believes in embracing what his children love, leading him to take up surfing and hockey later in life.
Parenting Philosophy: Guy discusses his approach to parenting, emphasizing the importance of supporting and engaging in his children's interests rather than directing them.
Life Lessons from Surfing: Surfing has not just been a sport for Guy but a source of life lessons. He talks about the complexities and unpredictability of surfing, drawing parallels between managing waves and life's challenges.
Humorous Anecdotes: From confusing directions underwater to humorous interactions in the surf community, Guy brings a light-hearted perspective to the challenges of learning to surf.
Persistence and Adaptability: Guy reflects on the broader implications of persistence in surfing, comparing it to career and personal life, where adaptability and resilience are crucial.
Insights on Book Writing: Discussing his concise approach to writing, Guy emphasizes the importance of distilling vast amounts of information into accessible insights, mirroring his practical approach to life.
Key Quotes:
"Rather than me forcing them to take up what I love, I let them determine what I should take up based on what they love."
"The first time I actually caught a wave and stood up, it was magic. Where else can you get this feeling?"
"You can sit out there in the water looking for that perfect wave all day and never turn and paddle. The same thing applies to life."
Michael Frampton: Welcome back to the Surf Mastery podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's guest is Guy Kawasaki. You may have heard that name. He's very famous in Silicon Valley, especially for his early role and involvement with Apple. He's gone on to do a lot of projects since then. Too many to mention in this short intro, but one of his most recent projects is a very successful 200-plus episode podcast called 'Remarkable People', and he recently released a new book called 'Think Remarkable'. Based on those interviews, and the main reason that I wanted to get him on the show is because he started surfing at 60. Yes, six zero. Started surfing at 60. So yes, Guy has a very unique perspective on beginning surfing, and I was very excited when he accepted the invite to come on the show, and he did not disappoint. So without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Guy Kawasaki. Hello, Guy, how are you?
Guy Kawasaki: I'm good. I can hear you now. Yes.
Michael Frampton: Excellent. And I've got you. Right. And it's recording. It looks like all the technical stuff is out of the way.
Guy Kawasaki: Don't get overconfident. The day is young.
Michael Frampton: It sure is. Well, and your lust for surfing. That's also quite young. Starting at 60. My gosh, that is. That's very late in life to start surfing. What inspired you to start?
Guy Kawasaki: What inspired me was that my daughter in particular became an avid and competitive surfer. And I kind of have a different parenting perspective and philosophy. I think many parents, what they do is they inadvertently or advertently force their kids to take up what they're interested in. So if you're a golfer, your kid's golf, you're a surfer, your kid's surf. If you are a, I don't know, physicist, your kids take up physics or violin or whatever. Yeah, in my family it worked differently. So rather than forcing the kids to take up what I loved, they would force me to take up what I said that wrong rather than I take up what I could speak English. English is my first language rather than me forcing them to take up what I love. I let they determine what I should take up based on what they love. And so they loved surfing and they loved hockey. So I took up hockey at 44, and I took up surfing at 60 because that's what my kids are into.
Michael Frampton: Oh, I love that, you're a good dad and that's an awesome philosophy and I actually have the same philosophy my kids got into football when they were quite young, and I just started playing with them, even though I never grew up playing it. I never liked the game, but now I actually love the game and have a strong appreciation for it.
Guy Kawasaki: So when you say football, you mean American oblong football or European-like round waffle? Oh okay. Okay. Soccer.
Michael Frampton: Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki: Because if you took up American football at a late age, it's hard to get 20, 21 other guys out there with helmets killing each other so.
Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. It's a rough sport. I mean, I grew up playing rugby, so I'm no stranger to that sort of world. But, it's not something you do when you're a or certainly not something you take up when you're older. It's a brutal sport.
Guy Kawasaki: So I think.
Michael Frampton: That thing can be pretty brutal, too. I mean, I'm sure you've had some gnarly wipeouts in your learning curve.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, listen, my sweet spot is maybe 3 to 4 at the most. Okay? Like, I am perfectly happy at 1 to 2ft. My daughter surfs at Mavericks and stuff, but that's not me, but I will tell you that, there have been times where in, like, a one-foot wave, I fall down and I lose perspective and reference and I'm like paddling, trying to get back up to the surface and I hit my head on the bottom because I was going the wrong way. I've done some very kooky things, I assure you.
Michael Frampton: So I'm interested to know, like, you're a smart guy. I'm sure when you decided to start surfing, what was your first entry point like? Did you get a lesson with someone? Did you just buy a board and jump in? How did you go about it?
Guy Kawasaki: Listen, when you start surfing at 60, well, one would hope that in 60 years you've acquired some kind of street smartness. So you figure out that, you're just not going to go to Costco and buy $150 board and then go out to Mavericks and decide to surf and, you know, with your goggles and your GoPro and your helmet and your zinc on your face. So the first thing I did was I took lessons. I took lessons in Hawaii, I took lessons in India, I took lessons in Santa Cruz. I took lessons at Cowell's and at Jacks. I kind of figured out that, when you start that late, you've got to accelerate the pace. And the way to accelerate the pace is to get instruction. Not by hanging out with Groms all day, trying to surf during the summer.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. So you sort many different opinions on instructions as well. That's a great strategy. Was there one particular lesson that stood out to you?
Guy Kawasaki: Every lesson was difficult. I started paddle surfing. I don't know why I started paddle surfing, but anyway, so I started with paddle boards and then a surf instructor here in Santa Cruz was just who was coaching my daughter at the time. He definitely established the, should I say, pecking order in surfing, and let's just say that paddle boarding is beneath prone surfing. And so it was a constant humiliation. So at one point I just got tired of being humiliated. And I said, all right, so throw away the paddle, give me a narrow board, and off I go. He for months, was pushing me into waves, because I don't know, to this day, I think the hardest thing in surfing is knowing where to sit and when to turn. It's just like I barely understand it, and when I'm out there and I'm with experienced surfers and they turn and they catch a wave that I don't even see the wave. I'm like, what are they turning for? And then not only that, they turn and they catch a wave that I barely can see. And they only paddle twice and I'm paddling like freaking 50, 60 times trying to get up there, it's a different world.
Michael Frampton: Oh, it sure is. And you nailed it. I mean, no matter what level of surfer you are, getting into the wave or choosing the right wave and getting into it in the right spot, that's always the hardest part. Because once you're standing up, once you're standing up on the right part of the wave, surfing is really simple and quite easy.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a mystery to me. With surfing, there are so many variables, right? I mean, there's the wave. Well, even the wave, there's the height, there's the direction, there's the speed, Are you at the peak, are you on the shoulder. That's just the wave. And then you're going to think of the wind and you got to think of the other kooks in the water and then you got to worry about, we have a ten-inch fin and it's, it's negative one tide and all the kelp is sticking out. So that's not going to work. Well I mean there's so many variables. It's such a cerebral sport.
Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Now has and if so how has surfing made your life better?
Guy Kawasaki: Oh absolutely. I mean, I surf every day. In fact, today I might surf twice. And here's like a Guy Kawasaki typical kind of story. So I have Méniere's disease. Méniere's disease has three symptoms, which is, sporadic attacks of vertigo, tinnitus, which is the ringing in your ear and hearing loss and so basically, my ears are all messed up, and it's not surfer ears or anything like that because I have only been surfing ten years, so it's not from surfing. This is a pre-existing condition. So if you said to somebody if you have middle ear issues and vertigo and deafness and tinnitus and all that kind of stuff, why don't you take up ice hockey and surfing? That's the perfect sports for you. The two sports that require balance the most I took up with the bad ears, huh?
Michael Frampton: Wow. So you like when someone tells you you can't do something that you see as a challenge?
Guy Kawasaki: I didn't listen. I mean, people have told me that I cannot do a lot of things, and quite frankly, they were right. So it's not a matter of proving them wrong. I will just say that, like the first time I played ice hockey, and the first time I actually caught a wave and stood up, it was magic. It was like Holy shit, this is like, where else can you get this feeling? It's like magical to be standing on a wave and somehow, like, you don't have to do anything like nature is pushing you forward. In my case 12 to 15 miles an hour. I mean and you don't need a hill to do that, like skateboarding when you fall on the pavement, it's a lot different than falling in the water. So, surfing is just magic. It's the most fun I think you can have legally.
Michael Frampton: I agree, and so do all of our listeners. But it's also one of the it's also one of the most challenging things that you can. I mean have you is that's a good question. Is surfing the most challenging thing you've that you do?
Guy Kawasaki: It is by far the most challenging thing I have ever tried to learn to do by far because there are so many variables. There's so many external variables and then there's your internal, there's like your body weight and your body type and your hip flexibility and, it's a very complex cerebral sport and I don't think people who don't surf, they don't appreciate how difficult it is because like basketball, you run and you jump in the normal course of life, right? I mean, ice hockey is like that, too. You don't skate naturally. I mean, that's something you have to learn the fundamentals. You have to learn. So I think part of the attraction for me, for surfing is that it is so hard. If I became immediately good at it, the thrill would be gone but it's taken ten years. I like my dream. Everybody has to have a dream. Right. So my dream is to be able to take four steps and hang ten on the nose. Okay? In ten years, I'm now able to sometimes take two steps. So it's taking me five years per step. So I need another ten years to get the total of four steps. I hope I make it.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well, Jerry Lopez says that the first 20 years of surfing is just to test if you're really interested.
Guy Kawasaki: I interviewed Jerry Lopez for my podcast, I know. I listened.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. Great. You did a great job.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, it's a funny story. You'll appreciate this surfing story. So this weekend we went to a surf meet in Huntington Beach. And on the sidewalk at Huntington Beach, there's, like, the Hollywood Walk of Fame. It's only the surfing Walk of Fame. And there's these, I think, brass plaques for these famous surfers. Right. So I saw Sean Tompson's, I saw Layne Beachley, and I saw Jerry Lopez, and I happen to know all three people because of my podcast. I sent them all messages and they all responded, yeah. Sean Tompson's response was, oh, they spelled my name right.
Michael Frampton: Oh, cool. I interviewed Sean a while ago for the podcast and actually see quite a couple of similarities between the book he wrote in the book you wrote is in. You chose not to make it a three-page behemoth full of fluff. And it's such a good book. It's so succinct. And it's the kind of book I'd rather spend 12 hours reading a good book three times, then 12 hours reading a long book once.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, I hear you and one of the things I think about many nonfiction books is they take 200 to 300 pages to explain one idea. Right? So like you should you should make a prototype very quick with the minimum features and get it out there and then if it doesn't succeed, bring it back and change it fast. Well, I just explained a 300-page book about minimum viable product and pivoting. Right? I mean, what else do you need to know about that concept besides what I just explained in 10s?
Michael Frampton: No, I really enjoyed your book. It's definitely one I'm going to go back and reread because it's so succinct.
Guy Kawasaki: I want you to know that I am a much better writer than a surfer, just FYI.
Michael Frampton: Has surfing taught you anything about other aspects of your life?
Guy Kawasaki: Ah, listen, I could. I can interpret almost all of life with using a surfing metaphor. Right? So, one obvious one is you can sit out there in the water looking for that perfect wave all day and never turn and paddle and if you do that, I guarantee you will not catch any waves. Same thing applies to life, right? You can be waiting for that perfect company, that perfect product, that perfect service, that perfect co-founder, that perfect VC and you could, you know, try to make this perfect thing and then that means you will never do anything. Same thing as surfing. Another analogy I would say is that, yes, you try to pick the perfect wave and you turn it the perfect time at the perfect angle and all the perfect stuff. But I think one of the things I learned about surfing is that at some point you turn and burn and then you just need to make that decision, right? Even if it's wrong. Right? You just gotta compensate. You would like to be in the barrel on the face of the wave, but guess what? You're an idiot. You're in the white water, so make the best of it right. And that's another metaphor for life, is that, you got to make decisions, right?
Michael Frampton: Yeah, you just kind of describe that in the book by saying, just plant many, many seeds because you're not you don't know which one will eventually eventuate and you catch lots of waves. that's the thing a lot. I've said before on this podcast is that when you watch, a surfing movie, you've got to realize that might only be ten minutes worth of surfing that you're watching but it took a surfer a year worth five hours a day of surfing to get those ten minutes worth of surfing.
Guy Kawasaki: Yea. You can apply that to almost everything in YouTube, right? So on the YouTube when they show this is a guy hitting half court shots, they shot him for five hours to get him making a half court shot twice. Right. He just goes out and does everyone like that? Yeah.
Michael Frampton: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: And surfing is a lot about sort of being in the right place at the right time and when you look at your career, I wonder how much of that's true. in your career?
Guy Kawasaki: Oh, my career is more about being in the right place at the right time than it is about being in the right place because of my decision. Okay? I guarantee you that, I call this guys Golden touch, which is not whatever I touch turns to gold guys. Golden touch is whatever is gold guy touches.
Michael Frampton: I like that.
Guy Kawasaki: So, this is the equivalent of that in a surfing metaphor is sometimes and it's happened to me. Sometimes you just expect to get clobbered, right? And so you turn your back to the wave and you lean back because you're about to get clobbered. And somehow the wave catches you and you get a ride without even trying to get the ride. Yeah, I'm telling you, a lot of people join companies that they had no freaking idea what it was going to do, and they turned out to be millionaires. Like, I don't know, what's this company Google do? I don't know, they needed a facilities manager and I didn't have a job, so I went to work for Google. I was the first Google facilities manager and now come to find out, my stock is worth $50 million. Yeah. I'm so smart now. There have been waves I guarantee you, Michael. There have been waves that I caught that I didn't intend to catch.
Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Michael Frampton: That happens all the time. And then you sort of, you turn up to the beach and without even knowing it's going to be good and it happens to be good. There's, there's luck involved in everything.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: How do you define luck?
Guy Kawasaki: I think luck is, getting back to seeds. Luck is planting a lot of seeds, right? I mean, you don't get lucky by staying on the sand. You get lucky by being in the water. You got to plant a lot of seeds and then, even if you're lucky, you have to take advantage of that luck. So you can't be a dumbass. You can't be a lazy schmuck and luck comes upon you and everything just is automatic. Even being lucky, you need to work hard. You need to be prepared. You need to be ready. If your board is not waxed and you're not sitting in the water. Yeah, you could be the most lucky guy in the world. You're still not going to catch the wave
Michael Frampton: Yeah. And you have to be sort of looking for those opportunities as well, don't you?
Michael Frampton: Yeah, I remember reading a book about luck and they did a test where they left a $20 bill sort of in the corner next to a sidewalk. And 95% of people just walk straight past. But then the person that noticed it considered themselves lucky, but really they were sort of open to or just being observant and looking for those opportunities.
Guy Kawasaki: So you're saying those people saw it and didn't pick it up or they didn't see it at all?
Michael Frampton: They didn't notice it? Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki: Wow.
Michael Frampton: That wasn't directly in the middle of the sidewalk. Obviously, everyone would see it. But, the corner of it's just sticking out and if you consider yourself a lucky person, then your peripheral vision is actually more likely to pick up on little things like that.
Guy Kawasaki: I hate to tell you, but this is, it's a related story, not necessarily the same story, but I'll tell you something to this day. If I were walking down the street and I saw a penny on the ground, I would pick up the penny, I really would. I think that a penny doesn't make a lot of difference to anybody, but. Okay. But it's just the principle that you should never leave money.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. No, I like that. That's a good metaphor, too. Like, if you're surfing in a crowd and a wave comes your way and it's. You probably should just take it rather than wait for the next one.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I have to say that, being deaf, I have a cochlear implant that's like, we can do this interview, but you can't wear a cochlear implant in the water. So being deaf in the water, there are some advantages to that. So like number one, Jerry Lopez says you should never be talking in the lineup. You should always be focused on surfing. Well, I hardly talk in the lineup because I cannot hear. So there's no sense talking, so that helps. And then let's just say that like every other kook in Santa Cruz, I drop in on people, okay? And then when they yell at me, I cannot hear. It doesn't bother me at all. They can yell all they want. I don't even hear.
Michael Frampton: Interesting. I wonder, do you think that there could be an advantage? Because then, you know it is an advantage.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. Because like, if I heard the person yelling at me and telling me to go f myself, then it would get in my head and I'd be pissed off and there'd be an argument. And who knows where that would lead? But now I just like, I'm deaf. I literally people have been like, jabbering at me and I said I'm deaf. I don't know what you're saying. I just paddle away. So if anybody's listening to this from Santa Cruz and you yell at me and I ignore you, that's what's happening.
Michael Frampton: Do you sometimes purposely take it out, when you're doing other things to increase your focus?
Guy Kawasaki: Oh, my implant?
Michael Frampton: Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki: No, i am blessed with a form of OCD that when I get focused on something, whether it's writing or editing or, anything like that. I can be anywhere. I can be in the middle seat of Southwest Airlines in row 35, and I can concentrate. It's not a matter of what I hear, so I never have to do that. Ijust lose touch with reality. It's the same thing when I speak, I have gone on stage with a migraine headache. I've gone on stage feeling sick but it just takes over me. And I'm just, like, in a zone. Deshaun Thompson zone.
Michael Frampton: Have you always been like that or is that something that you've had to work on and foster?
Guy Kawasaki: I can't remember. I think it just comes with repetition. I don't think I was born like that. I don't think anybody is born like that, but I certainly have it now.
Michael Frampton: Is there a bigger picture behind that though? Like, is there a driving force that sort of allows you, to keep trudging forward?
Guy Kawasaki: Well, for a while, I have four kids, so for the longest time my motivation was four tuitions. Now, as of next week, only one tuition will be in play, so that has reduced the pressure. But I guess I am just driven. I have a high need for achievement. Like this podcast, I do 52 episodes a year with no revenue,
Guy Kawasaki: On paper you'd have to say, Guy, why do you do that? Why do you kill yourself doing a podcast? And I'm just driven. It's just driven by achievement. And in a sense, the same thing applies for surfing. For me, I do a lot of dry land training and stuff because I'm 60. I got to catch up, right? So I can't just get out there and automatically assume everything's going to work. So, the secret to my success in life, surfing, or to the extent that I am successful in surfing, the secret to my life is grit. I am willing to outwork anybody.
Michael Frampton: There's also if you're doing dry land training, then there's a lot of podcasts as well. There's a lot of preparation that goes into that.
Guy Kawasaki: Yep. Nobody can out-prep me.
Michael Frampton: Oh, okay.
Michael Frampton: I'm interested to know what does your dryland training for surfing look like?
Guy Kawasaki: Oh, okay. I could do even more, but, I practiced pop-ups. I'm trying to constantly increase flexibility. I do more than anybody I know, but I know I could do so much more. It's just that in the last year or so, this book has just taken over my life, too. But, I'm telling you, I am going to hang ten. I'm going to hang ten and then I'm going to drop dead right after that and everything will be fine.
Michael Frampton: Oh, funny.
Guy Kawasaki: They're just going to get, I've seen them take dead bodies off the beach at Jax and the fire department comes and they put you in a little one of those. Is it a sleigh? What do they call it? One of those baskets. They bring the dead body up from the cliff in a basket, that's all. They're going to take me out of Jax, okay?
Michael Frampton: You're die-happy then?
Michael Frampton: Death on the nose. Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki: He was so shocked. He hung ten. He had a stroke and died.
Michael Frampton: Yeah, well.
Michael Frampton: You get the right wave, get the right board. You'll get there for sure. It's a good goal.
Guy Kawasaki: I have to tell you, though, it's much more likely that I, apparently hit my head on the ground and drowned then I hang ten on my last ride.
Michael Frampton: Oh, I've got a feeling that you'll get there.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, yeah, I hope so.
Michael Frampton: So out of all you've done so many podcast episodes, like over 200, is there any is there any commonalities between all of these guests?
Michael Frampton: Oh yeah.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in a sense, the commonality with 250 episodes reduced to. Yeah, that's 5000 pages of transcripts, so that 5000 pages of transcripts has come down to 170 pages in a book. There's a lot of commonality and the lessons of the book reflect the commonality and at the highest level, the commonality is that to be remarkable, you need to have a growth mindset. You need to be willing to pay the price and be greedy and finally, you need to be gracious to be remarkable and that just happens over and over again with those 250 guests.
Michael Frampton: How do you how do you define grit?
Guy Kawasaki: Grit is the ability to do something when you are not necessarily getting positive results and nor do you necessarily enjoy it, but you just are willing to pay the price.
Michael Frampton: So, is there an element of faith or hope that goes with that? or delusion?
Michael Frampton: In my case, it's a delusion with surfing.
Guy Kawasaki: But you know what? One thing I figured out is it doesn't matter why you're gritty. It's just that you're gritty. You could be stubborn. You could be OCD, you could be delusional. You could be whatever. But as long as you just keep putting it out, that's all that matters.
Michael Frampton: Okay, and then grace, how do you define grace?
Guy Kawasaki: Grace is when you come to this realization that you are successful in life, and you are fortunate because there are teachers and coaches and mentors and bosses. There are people who opened the door for you and because somebody opened the door for you, you should open the door for somebody else. So it's a sense of moral obligation to the world to pay back society.
Michael Frampton: Okay, how would you define grace in the surfing world?
Guy Kawasaki: I could. Okay, I yeah. I could tell you some really great stories here. So at 38, there are some surfers who are really quite good. I would love to be as good as them. And they are so good that they can catch a wave and they can surf the whole face. They can catch it in front of Jack's house, and they could go all the way to like Purves or to like practically the hook, right? They can take the face the whole way, and some of them do and you know what? When you're at Jack's and there's a lot of beginners and novices, there are lots of people who are going to catch the wave and get in your way on the face and that's just the way it is at Jax. Jax is for kooks and beginners, right and so these really good surfers, they can take the whole face and they get really pissed off with people and they yell at people and they scream and they push people off and all that, and I just don't understand that and believe me, I've been one of those people who've been pushed and yelled at and what I don't understand is like, okay, if you are so freaking good, go to first or second or go to the hook, but you're just trying to be a big dog in this little shit pond.
Guy Kawasaki: So like, what is your problem? and like, everybody's out there, they're just trying to have a good time, learn how to surf, catch a few waves. So like what? Why are you being such an asshole? Then it's like, Guess what? There's nobody from the WSL sitting up on the East cliff looking for people for the WSL. So I hate to tell you, I can drop in on your face and I'm not going to affect your professional surfing career, so just shut up and go to second or first. That's my attitude. They completely lack grace and I have a theory that the better you are, the more gracious you are. It's the middle ground, right? So when you're really a beginner and lousy, you don't know what the hell you're doing. When you get kind of good, that's when you figure, I'm the big dog. I can get the face, I can hang ten, I can do cutbacks and all that. But then when you get really, really good, you say, I want to help other people enjoy surfing. And I'm going to help them and coach them and encourage them. You don't yell at them. The really good surfers don't yell at you.
Michael Frampton: Yeah, I love that definition and I totally agree. Yep. Joel Tudor is famous for saying that the ultimate goal is Skip Frye.
Guy Kawasaki: Skip Frye was like that?
Michael Frampton: He still is.
Michael Frampton: He's still out there surfing every day. He's in his 80s and he just glides gracefully along on his.
Guy Kawasaki: But does he yell at somebody if a kook dropped in on him? No.
Michael Frampton: No, of course not.
Michael Frampton: He's been surfing so long that you just wouldn't. I think sometimes surfers also, I think a graceful surfer has the sort of demeanor about them that just you would feel bad dropping in on them because they're so graceful and they're not taking every wave. Does that sort of make? Yeah.
Michael Frampton: But if you're out there trying to take every wave and yelling at people, you're actually more likely to get dropped in on again and again and again. So thank you. Thank you CCTV.
Guy Kawasaki: Oh, God.
Michael Frampton: I think part of this is a lot of those people, they surfed, 20, 30 years ago when there just was one-tenth of the amount of people in the water, and they kind of expect it to be like that still, even though you're right, you're right. They can go for it. They can drive half an hour and go somewhere else where it's more difficult and where there are less people.
Guy Kawasaki: Half an hour, they could paddle 500 yards to the right and they could be someplace else like that, but I think a lot of those people, they realize that, at Jax, they stand out, but if they went to first or second, they would be at the bottom of the pile again. Right? And they would be yelled at not doing the yelling and they cannot adjust to that.
Michael Frampton: So yeah, that doesn't feed their ego.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. The second peak is my Mavericks.
Michael Frampton: That's. yup, Okay.
Michael Frampton: So that's Grace, and well, I quite like how you've defined compassion as a combination of empathy and grit. I really liked that definition. Can you speak a bit more on that?
Guy Kawasaki: Well, the empathy part is easy, right? I mean, when you think of compassionate people, they can empathize. They can feel what you're feeling. They can understand, they can relate right, but the difference between empathy and compassion, I think, is that you want to go from empathy to compassion, which is the higher level. It means that you not only feel for the other person, you're actually do something. So a compassionate person does something and an empathetic person just feels something and that's the difference.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. That's. So it comes back to doing again.
Guy Kawasaki: Yep.
Michael Frampton: Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki: That's a recurrent theme in my books.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. And I also really liked your Ikigai. You sort of, I like how you reframed that.
Michael Frampton: Sort of do what you love, right?
Michael Frampton: And then be willing to improve to go push through the shit sandwich to improve, but also to not expect to get paid for it.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, see, I think that, now listen. I am Japanese American, but I don't want to give you the impression that I spent 20 years studying with Buddhist monks, and I truly understand Japanese and all that because I'm just as American as Donald Trump Jr. But I'll tell you something that lots of people define Ikigai as you draw three circles, which is what you love to do, what you're good at doing, and what you can get paid at, and in the middle of those three is what your ikigai should be, because you can get paid, you like it, and you're good at it. I disagree with that definition. My definition is that Ikigai means that you are not good at it. You cannot get paid at it, and you may hate it because you're not good and not getting paid at it, but you still do it, and that for me is surfing, right? I'm not good at it. I love doing it. Sometimes I hate it and I'm never going to get paid for it. So if you're under those conditions, if you still surf every day, you could probably bet that it's your Ikigai or something you truly, truly love, because it's not because it's the money. It's not because it's easy. It's only because you love it.
Michael Frampton: Yeah I really like that it's a good twist on, because I was very aware of Ikigai. I think everyone is nowadays. It's become quite part of pop culture, but it was a really good reframing. I really liked that. Allan Langer.
Guy Kawasaki: The psychologist.
Michael Frampton: Yes. How did she change your perspective on things?
Guy Kawasaki: Okay, so Ellen Langer. She made a brilliant observation to me that we spend so much time trying to make the right decision, but what we should do is make our decisions right, and going back to that surfing analogy. So, yeah, spend your whole life or the whole session in the water trying to make the right decision, but what you should really do is turn and burn and make that decision right, which means that you can compensate by turning the board or paddling harder or softer or, popping up, fading and then going right, or who knows, right? But Ellen Langer is all about, yes, take your best shot but then make your decision, right, and I think that is a very good prescription for how to lead a remarkable life. You've got to make your decisions right.
Michael Frampton: Do you mean by that, as in, once you've made a decision to accept it and sort of trust that, it is right?
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I don't know about trust, but, I think the reality is that you never can make the exact perfect decision because the future is unknowable and there's so many variables. So I'm not saying that if you got married to somebody and that person is physically abusive? I'm not saying stick in the marriage and make the decision right? Okay. There are some things. There are limits to these things right, but to think that the grass is always greener and to think that, perfection lies in the next wave, not this one. I think that's suboptimal. At some point, you just got to make it right.
Michael Frampton: Yeah, so it's kind of about being present really.
Guy Kawasaki: Yes. Yes. Michael Frampton: Yeah, interesting. Is meditation part of your life? Guy Kawasaki: No, no. Like, Marc Benioff in his interview talked about meditation and all that. I don't have time for meditation, right? I'm a doer. I'm not a meditator. What can I say? Hmm. Maybe I should meditate more. Maybe I could hang ten.
Michael Frampton: I would argue that you said yourself, earlier that even in the middle seat, in cattle class on an airplane, you have the ability to focus on something.
Michael Frampton: Yes, Most people meditate in order to get more of that, I think.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, then I was born with it.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. You're lucky. I see the statue in the background and is Buddhism part of your life?
Guy Kawasaki: No, it's just I am in a closet that I've made into a sound studio, and I wanted to have an interesting background. So, I have tried dozens of things I like. I have this lamp, I have this fake flower. I have fake flowers. I have the lamp, I have bamboo, I have vases, I've tried all kinds of stuff. Yeah, I'm constantly experimenting to get, like, you have that surfboard back there, but I don't have space for a surfboard.
Michael Frampton: So you're a little bit of an interior designer.
Guy Kawasaki: You know what? I don't want to tell you how many hours I have spent trying to make a good background, putting all this soundproof foam, getting this stuff here, like, it would probably be measured in days, in days.
Michael Frampton: Oh, no. It's a good thing. I think it looks good and, your voice is coming across with no echo. So, well done.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I once spent a few weeks trying to make sure that the video and audio were perfectly synced because I was getting a case where the audio was about two frames behind the video, and the way you test that is you do something like you clap and you see when your hands hit, and then you look and you see if there's a spike of the clap matching that exact moment right, and it wasn't. It was two frames off, and that just freaking drove me crazy, and then finally I found something that you can add frames of delay for the video or, I don't know, vice versa, whatever it was. Yeah, I'm a little nuts that way.
Michael Frampton: Oh, you got to get that sort of stuff right though I think it does matter. Is that sort of a bit of a perfectionism that you speak about there?
Guy Kawasaki: A bit. I'd say there's a freaking wheelbarrow full.
Michael Frampton: If there was one message that you hoped someone got out of your most recent book. What is that?
Guy Kawasaki: I hope people realize that it's not about deciding you want to be remarkable. The way it works is you make a difference. You make the world a better place. And if you make the world a better place, then people will believe you are remarkable. So it's not a which came first. It's just an order. You make the world a better place. People will think you're remarkable. So the focus not on being remarkable as much as making a difference.
Michael Frampton: I love that. Guy. Thank you so much. Congratulations on.
Guy Kawasaki: I might go surfing a second session.
Michael Frampton: Awesome.
Guy Kawasaki: Thank you.
Michael Frampton: I'll have links to all of, everything of Guy in the show notes. Uh, thanks for tuning in, everyone.
Guy Kawasaki: All right. Thank you very much for having me. All the best to you.
Michael Frampton: All right. Thank you. Guy. Awesome. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. Bye bye.
Guy Kawasaki on the Surf Mastery Podcast
Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Be5RXXCOZG8?si=rEENemCzY9C0b2NK
96 Nic Laidlaw - From Hawaii to Home: How the Ocean Connected Me to My True Self
Jun 25, 2024
Nic Laidlaw is a holistic exercise and lifestyle coach, a ridiculously good surfer, a father, and a man full of wisdom. We discuss health and wellness, Paul Chek, leadership, parenting, connecting with nature, injury recovery, health retreats, mentors, masculinity, big wave surfing as an initiation to manhood. Plus much more.
Key Points: * Drawing parallels between surfing and life challenges * Embracing imperfection and overcoming personal struggles just as one tackles waves * Appreciating the complexity of surfing and the importance of nuanced thinking * Finding balance in life, similar to striving for balance on a surfboard * Modeling positive behavior on and off the surfboard for children * Practicing patience in surfing and allowing oneself and children to explore the waves at their own pace * Instilling a love for nature in kids through surfing experiences Quotes: * "Navigating the waves of life is like riding the waves of the ocean" * "Just like every wave is different, every challenge in life is unique" * "The surfboard is not just a tool for riding waves; it's a metaphor for balancing life's highs and lows" Takeaways: * Embrace the unpredictable nature of surfing and life * Strive for balance in the face of challenges, both on and off the board * Serve as a positive role model for children, showing them how to navigate the highs and lows * Foster a deep connection to nature through the exhilarating experience of surfing.
Nic Laidlaw Surf Mastery Podcast
95 Oscar Hetherington - Award Winning Surf Photographer
Apr 11, 2024
The Journey from Passionate Amateur to Award-Winning Surf Photographer, Oscar Hetherington.
Coming from a family that enjoyed beach holidays, he was instantly hooked on catching waves. In addition to surfing, he also took up photography to document sessions with friends. He began honing his skills by shooting local competitions and events featuring the surfing community.
For years, he worked to steadily build his portfolio and improve through shooting. All of his hard work finally paid off when he won an award from the prestigious Follow the Light Foundation for his surf photography. This major accomplishment opened new doors, like assisting professional surfers on international shoots.
Kassia Meador shares insights from her experiance as a pro surfer and recreational surfer. What surfing means to her and how she continues to evolve in and out of the water. Kassia embodies education and inspiration for surfers through her brand, courses, and retreats. From chatting about challenging waves to overcoming head traumas, this episode gets real about the highs and lows of surfing life. We even get into alternative therapies like sound baths.
In just over a year Andrew was surfing Pipeline. Andrew discusses his transition from skateboarding to surfing, sharing insights from trips to El Salvador and Hawaii. They delve into the dangers of surfing, emphasizing the importance of taking it slow and respecting the waves.
The conversation covers personal well-being, worst surfing advice, and the unique dynamics of Andrew's Brooklyn skate park. The hosts also explore the pros and cons of using a carver skateboard and share humorous anecdotes about challenging surf conditions.
The podcast concludes with reflections on the changing skate industry and the need for affordable skate parks. Throughout, the hosts infuse the discussion with camaraderie, providing an entertaining blend of nostalgia, insight, and humor.
This episode of "The Surf Mastery Podcast," hosts Rob Case. Rob and Michael reconnect after a hiatus and delve into their personal struggles, the well-being of their children, and their profound love for surfing. They explore a range of surfing-related topics, including the importance of mastering techniques like the pop-up and strategic wave-catching. They discuss surf trip challenges, their vision for professional surfing, their frustrations with the World Surf League (WSL), and the significance of surf culture and etiquette. The conversation also touches on family-friendly surf trips, wave pools, and diverse surfboard choices, concluding with their shared enthusiasm for surfing and aspirations to collaborate on surfing education.
The episode offers a deep dive into the world of surfing, teaching, and the broader surf culture, covering everything from fundamental skills to the future of professional surfing and the importance of the surfing community.
ManTalks founder Connor Beaton - podcaster, author, coach, father and husband. Connor brings a relational and common sense approach to the "manosphere". His podcast has been paramount in my journey of self-discovery and relationship education. We discuss masculinity, icons, men’s issues & more.
Rambo Estrada is a surf photographer from New Zealand, best known for his iconic shots of uncrowded perfect waves. We talk about how to be in the right place at the right time, how to score perfect waves. In the second half of the interview we discuss gear, photography techniques, and lots of tips to help you take better surfing photos.
Sir John Kirwan - Former All Black and international rugby coach, life-long surfer, mental health advocate & spokesperson, author, businessman, father and husband. John shares his wide-ranging wisdom gained from the highs and lows of a very full and succesfull life. Links to everything John Kirwan:
Experienced surf coach and surf guide Andrew Goodman and I discuss surf tips for all levels. Board choice, wave reading, culture and etiquette, surf travel + much more.
Devon Howard and I discuss twin fins, in particular the Channel Islands Mid Twin. The types of waves and style of surfing best suited for mid length twin fins, tips and techniques for surfing them, different fins, board design elements. We compare the mid twin to single fins and 2 + 1 set ups. Devon also addresses the most common questions he gets asked about mid lengths.
To see the board and view the video of it being surfed:
85 Shane Beschen - The Fun of Getting Better
Mar 16, 2023
Surf Coach Shane Beschen shares some of his surfing knowledge. Shane finished 2nd on the pro tour in 1996 and has been in the surfing industry for over 30 years as a pro athlete, coach, writer and much more.
Follow Shane on Instagram for loads of surfing tips:
84 Jack Jensen - Channelling your MiSFiT Energy
Mar 09, 2023
Jack Jensen is the CEO of MSFT Productions, and mental health advocate. He shares his powerful mission, message and story. His brand, business and mental health initiative - #sparkthatchat, all encompass Jack's genuine mission and passion to do good in this world
Jack is a true inspiration for all, but especially young men.
83 Dr. Michael Gervais - High Performance Psychologist
Feb 21, 2023
Stay in the surf and stay in the room: How surfing and psychotherapy can improve your relationships and your athletic performance
In this episode we discuss:
The similarities and differences between sports psychology and psychotherapy, who should, and when to use sports psychology or therapy. What is a good coach, the importance of quality relationships.The holistic effects of therapy, 3 things all high performers have in common, Jordan Peterson and much more.
81 Eddie Ifft - Comedian Podcaster Surfer
Nov 21, 2022
Eddie Ifft is a Stand-up comedian, podcaster and surfer. (WARNING: This episode contains dark comedy, shock comedy and satire.) Eddie shares some surfing stories, his hilarious takes on the surfing culture, how MacDonalds improved his health and much more.
Linton Fafie coaches at Surfing Australia's High Performance Centre and in Byron Bay NSW - "High Performance Surf Coaching for the everyday surfer".
In this episode we discuss strategies for the intermediate surfers' plateaus, ideal beginner pathways, wave reading fundametals, pop-up mistakes, DNS and much more.
79 Matt Scorringe - Olympic Surf Coach
Sep 21, 2022
We talk about Matt's time as coach of the New Zealand Olympic surfing team and the experiance of the event. What the role of a surf coach is at the Olympics and how his role as surf coach to the average surfer has evolved and adpated post Covid + much more.
Anyone that joins the November cohort put SURFMASTERY in the comments box during checkout and they will be emailed their 100% off code for 1 year of the academy.
77 Shaun Tomson - The Evolution of Stoke
Aug 17, 2022
1977 Surfing World champ and best selling author Shaun Tomson.
Shaun talks about how lessons learnt from surfing can be applied to any of life's situations. Shaun's tenacious optimism and wisdom is infectious and profound.
We also discuss his ever evolving relationship to the ocean and surfing, the depth and power of the word Stoke, what great surfers all have in common, plus much more.
76 Donald Brink - Fascinated with Surfing
Aug 01, 2022
SoCal surfboard shaper & fellow podcaster Donald Brink and I discuss; the resonant frequency of surfboards, comparisons of surfing to music, the evolution of surf coaching, life, one’s relationship to the ocean + much more.
Holly Beck is a former pro surfer turned holistic surf coach and surf therapist. This is an in depth discussion about how surfing affects our psychology and vica versa.
Find out more about working with me as a life coach / Therapist:
https://surfmastery.com/mens-life-coaching
74 Jonathan Wayne Freeman
May 11, 2022
Surfer and comedian Jon Wayne Freeman entertains & teaches us about surfing and the surf culture at large. He also shares his inpirational story of breaking free from the 9-5 work week - making his dreams a reality, and the important part sobriety has been on that journey.
A short episode featuring my favorite tip from Tom Carroll - Look for the detail on the wave. Pay close attention to the finer details of the wave, the wind chops, the secondary swell, the backwash, every bump, nook, and cranny. Look at the way the light reflects off of every small ripple, look to see where and how water is moving and where it is moving most so you can generate speed.
70 DEVON HOWARD - Mid Length Crash Course
Mar 21, 2022
Devon Howard explains mid length surfboards, appropriate conditions for use, correct technique, the right size for you, their limitations, the history of, how to duck-dive them and much more.
Devon breaks down noseriding & cross stepping, we discuss dry-land and balance training. We talk appropriate traditional longboarding equipment and style. We also get into surfing etiquette, line-up politics and the current state of surfing.
032: MATT GRIGGS - Busting Through Terminal Mediocrity
May 29, 2018
Elite performance coach Matt Griggs teaches us how to break through performance plateaus.
https://thenatureofsuccess.com.au
In episode 31 - Taylor Knox we touched on the feeling of surfing, in this episode we dive at lot deeper into the 'feeling' of surfing, and how Kelee Meditation can enhance the feeling of surfing, and the quality of your life.
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Mastering Fundamentals and Wave Selection with Bud Freitas
Are you stuck on a plateau in your surfing? Find out why slowing down might be the fastest way to level up.
Many surfers struggle to break through to the next level because they skip the fundamentals. Whether you’re looking to smooth out your turns, learn wave reading, or unlock the secret to better shortboard performance, this episode with pro surfer turned coach Bud Freitas is packed with actionable insights to transform your surfing journey.
Learn why starting on a longboard—or even a hybrid—can be a game-changer for your surfing fundamentals.
Discover how to master wave reading and make better choices in the lineup.
Get tips on finding the perfect board for your goals, whether you’re new to longboarding or looking to sharpen your shortboard skills.
Listen now to gain expert advice from Bud Freitas and take your surfing to the next level with proven techniques and insights!
Notable Quotes:
“People just shoot for the stars and miss the basics. Learning to surf starts with understanding the board, the wave, and yourself.” – Bud Freitas
“If you’re struggling on a shortboard, grab a longboard or an eight-foot hybrid. It’ll teach you control and how to find speed through your rail.” – Bud Freitas
“Wave selection is personal. What I look for might not be what you’re looking for, but understanding the contrast between a mushy wave and a walled-up wave is key.” – Bud Freitas
“Why not test your will? Take a steep drop on a log, and you’ll be super satisfied when you pull it off.” – Bud Freitas
“Seeing the stoke in a beginner or even an older client when they nail their first big turn or wave—that’s what it’s all about.” – Bud Freitas
Bud Freitas grew up surfing in Santa Cruz county and has a vast amount of local knowledge in the Santa Cruz area to facilitate your santa cruz surf lessons from Surf School Santa Cruz. Bud spent every waking hour of his young life surfing and exploring the coast of Santa Cruz, and has 20+ years experience in the water surfing his butt off. His credentials on the WQS and other contests speak for itself, and if you want to watch Bud Freitas in action watch the video on the right side of this page, or check out the Photo Gallery and watch Bud ripping with your own eyes! Learn more about Bud Freitas the surfer and teacher
Bud Freitas shares his experience of learning to surf by watching and studying the surfing style of local surfers like Adam Rapogol, focusing on their rail game and smooth turns.
Bud emphasizes the importance of starting with a longboard or hybrid board to learn the fundamentals of surfing and understanding how a surfboard works before transitioning to a shortboard.
Bud suggests that one of the biggest challenges for surfers is skipping the fundamental steps of learning on a longboard or hybrid board and jumping straight to a shortboard, leading to a lack of proper technique.
Bud recommends that surfers struggling with their shortboard surfing should go back to riding a longboard or hybrid board to regain their flow and fundamentals before transitioning back to the shortboard.
Bud discusses the importance of wave selection and reading waves, emphasizing that it's a personal preference and takes time and experience to develop.
Bud shares his transition from being a professional surfer to becoming a surf coach, driven by his passion for helping others improve their surfing skills.
Bud highlights the challenges faced by adult learners and the satisfaction he derives from seeing their progress and stoke, similar to coaching kids.
Bud emphasizes the need for surfers to learn how to truly surf, rather than just jumping around on a surfboard, and recommends starting with a longboard or hybrid board to develop proper technique.
Outline
Introduction of Bud Freitas
Bud Freitas is introduced as a surfer from Santa Cruz who spent time on the World Qualifying Series (WQS).
He is described as an accomplished shortboard surfer passionate about both surfing and coaching.
The host mentions that Bud has a website called Surf School Santa Cruz, which features additional information about him, including a three-minute video by Surfer Magazine showcasing his skills.
Early Surfing Experience
Bud started surfing at a young age but initially stepped away after a frightening experience of being held down by a wave for an extended period.
He returned to surfing around age 9-10, joining a group of friends who competed.
His competitive nature drove rapid improvement, motivated by the desire to surpass their best friend.
Bud began on a longboard for about a year before transitioning to a shortboard, which significantly boosted his progress.
Influence of Local Surfers
Bud grew up near Pleasure Point, one of Santa Cruz's best waves, which exposed him to many top surfers in the area.
He learned primarily by watching others, particularly admiring surfers like Chris Gallagher, Adam Repogle, and Kieran Horn.
Bud specifically studied Adam Repogle's rail-focused surfing style, which heavily influenced his own approach to surfing.
Surfing Techniques and Fundamentals
Bud emphasizes the importance of using the rail of the surfboard for speed and control, as opposed to hopping around on the board.
He believes many surfers today miss crucial fundamentals by skipping the longboard stage and going straight to shortboards.
Bud recommends starting with a longboard or larger board to learn how a surfboard works and develop a feel for using the rail.
He suggests reverting to a larger board when struggling on a shortboard to regain fundamentals and flow.
Bud advises that slowing down on a longer board teaches wave awareness, body positioning, and proper technique.
Teaching Wave Selection
Bud discusses the challenges of teaching wave selection, as it is highly personal and varies between surfers.
He looks for 'walled up' waves that offer speed and a good ride.
When teaching wave selection, he sits with students in the lineup, showing them how different waves break and what to look for.
Bud emphasizes that learning to read waves comes with experience and time spent in the water.
He mentions that as surfers progress, they become more selective about which waves they choose, sometimes waiting long periods for the right one.
Professional Career and Coaching
After a few years on the professional tour, Bud got burnt out and took a break from surfing.
Later, he got a 'second wind' and returned to surfing, eventually partnering with Fox Racing.
Bud started a coaching career with one student, which led to coaching more kids and eventually starting a surf school.
He now works with a variety of clients, including adults looking to improve their surfing skills.
Bud stresses the importance of starting with fundamentals, even for experienced surfers looking to improve.
He often recommends using longer boards or hybrids to help surfers slow down and focus on technique.
Bud believes many surfers today focus too much on aerial maneuvers at the expense of fundamental turning and wave riding skills.
He suggests that even shortboarders can benefit from occasionally riding longer boards to improve overall surfing.
For those looking to improve fundamentals, Bud recommends trying a traditional longboard or 'log' rather than a high-performance longboard.
He suggests the 'Advance' as a good hybrid board for those transitioning or looking to work on fundamentals.
Bud rides a variety of boards himself, including a 5'7" Sci-Fi, a 5'4" Omni, and a custom 5'11" round tail.
Influential Surf Movies
Bud mentions several influential surf movies, including 'Good Times' by Taylor Steele, 'Progression Session' by Tony Roberts, and 'The Kill' by Tony Roberts.
Transcription
You lay one down on rail and you come out of it and do it again, it doesn't get better than that. It really doesn't. Surfing will come a little bit easier and you'll actually find how a surfboard works.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surfers better.
You'll get on a surfboard and it'll feel like featherweight and you can just light it up.
Michael Frampton
Okay, welcome back to the show, faithful listeners. It has been a while, I know, but we've got today's episode and then I've got four more I'm currently editing.
So there's plenty of content coming before the end of the year. A couple of housekeeping things before we get into this interview. Firstly, I am currently in Malibu in California at the moment. I am here until the end of October and I'm studying functional neurology and looking for case studies. The perfect case study is someone that has already seen everyone.
You know, you've seen chiros, physios, physical therapists, massage, etc. You're still in pain, let me know. If there's anyone in Malibu or driving through Malibu that wants to go Surfing somewhere, I'm very keen to find some good waves before the end of October as well.
So get in touch on that note as well. If there's anyone out there interested in being a guest host of the podcast, please get in touch. If there is a friend of yours who you think would be a good interview and fits into what the show is about, send me an email. Let's chat about it. I'm more than to having guest hosts. I am organizing a surfers Mastery trip. A few people have already expressed interest in this. It's going to be probably in Central America. I have found a couple of spots that would suit. If anyone's interested in coming, please get in touch. If anyone has any contacts down there as far as a good location, etc., or any advice, please get in touch as well. The surfers trip is going to be based around getting better at Surfing.
So we're going to have surf coaches, a couple of professional surfers, videographers, etc. So yeah, please get in touch if you're interested in participating or have any advice on that one. You can just send me an email as best either through the contact page at surfmastery .com or just mike at surfmastery .com. Today's interview is with Bud Freitas. Bud is a surfers from Santa Cruz. Bud spent some time on the WQS. Bud absolutely shreds on a shortboard. As you'll hear in this interview, Bud is a very passionate surfers. He loves Surfing, but he's just as passionate about surf coaching. If you want to learn more about Bud, there are links in the show notes. And if you just go to his website, surfers School Santa Cruz, you'll see some more stuff on him, including a piece that surfers Magazine did on him. It's a nice little three -minute video that's got some footage of him absolutely ripping. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Bud. I.
Bud Freitas
Love it. It's so fun. Watching a kid go from, like you said, the word, you know, Mastery, like when you go the next level and then they do their first turn or they do their first floater or just even catching the overhead wave, like just seeing the excitement in the kid's face to the next level is so insane. It's so fun. And the best is after they do something, they want to come up and just let you know my God, I did the biggest turn. And you're just like, yeah, you did. You did a great turn. It's a big old turn, you know, and it's like some little hack, but it's just like in their mind, they threw a big old Aki snap or something. That stuff's the best.
Michael Frampton
When did you see the steepest learning curve in your own Surfing?
Bud Freitas
I'm going to say when I first started, I got, you know, I got the bug, I was super into it. And then I kind of stepped away after that because I got worked by a wave and held down for a super long time.
So that kind of spooked me. And then I came back at it.
And then from like, I'd say nine and 10 is where I really jumped into it. And then I had friends that joined me at a group of friends that surfers and we started competing. And what was happening is I wasn't winning and I wasn't doing well in the contest. I was like, just chugging along and just watching them get in first place or whatever, like one of my best friends, that's when it just turned it on for me. And it just drove me to like the next level. And I would not stop. I was in the water all day long, just trying to beat my best friend is what my goal was. And it got to the point where I surpassed him and I was on the skid, the brunt as a kid, I was winning a bunch of contests. And I don't know if it ever really stopped.
I mean, I'm a competitive person, but I think as a whole as Surfing, I think once I started getting the feel for surfing, like I started on longboard first, played with that for a couple, like a year or so. And then I graduated to shoreboard. That's when I would say that's when I started really feeling the bug and went on to the next two.
Michael Frampton
So you were inspired by people that were better than you competitively and you were driven from that. You had a competitive drive behind it as well.
Yeah.
Bud Freitas
Yeah, I think I'm competitive no matter what it is. I'm just that person. But it's funny because I grew up on Pleasure Point, which is one of the best waves in Santa Cruz.
You know, there's two main breaks. There's one at Steamers Lane, one at Pleasure Point and my house is two houses from the point.
Like it's one of the closest houses can be. And I was just surrounded by good Surfing too. It was always fun because like the whole neighborhood and there's all the top surfers were in that neighborhood and there are some went around there like one of the famous ones, Chris Gallagher, Adam Rapogo, Kieran Horn and that whole group in front of me.
So that was another cool thing because they'd be parking on my street and I was just like the girl that had the biggest stoke just when they pull up and like walk down with them to go surfers. But like watching them surf is kind of drove me to become better because like it taught me like the rail game, I think, is what it came from. If you think of all those guys, they're all rail surfers. I can maybe do an error if I try, but I can't really get my ass out of the water.
Like I'm not that guy. So that was another thing too, is being surrounded by good Surfing like all the time. There's always someone out there surfing good, pushing it.
So it was fun.
Michael Frampton
So is that how you learned? Just by watching others?
Bud Freitas
By watching others, yeah. And I was never really coached and that's what I kind of bummed me out because when I got to the next level, I was starting to go down south and travel and by then it was like my teens, like younger teenage and a lot of those guys had coaches or had some kind of group or someone had coaching with it and it was never really offered up here until my like, let's say 16, 17 is when Chris Gallagher started putting together like a coaching team up here and he was helping the younger groups and that's when it really started to kick in and kind of moving forward to the next level. But I was that was my problem, I didn't take it that serious. I thought it was kind of fun to like go these workouts and stuff but I was never really like super hard on because I figured I could just do it myself. I'm kind of that guy, like I could watch and learn.
So that's like one of the downfalls I think for me was not pushing it to the next level. With the training and stuff, I was more into just Surfing and finding my way that way. I learn by visual more than I do anything else, like watching someone surfers I can pick up on it. I find it a little bit easier for me.
Michael Frampton
Most surfers will watch the best surfers at their local break and you know they'll watch them and they'll try and learn from them. But most people can't integrate what they see into their own Surfing. Was there a way that you looked at those surfers or the way that you thought about the way they surfed that separated you from other people that were kind of thinking along the same lines? Why were you successful in just watching others and other people weren't? Do you know why?
Bud Freitas
I don't know, that's a great question. I mean I think it's just wanting to fall suit with those guys. Adam Rapogol for instance is like my all -time favorite surfers and he literally took me out for the first time as a kid. I have a picture with him, it's like funny, I was a tiny little dude. I think just him being around me and being an idol for the Santa Cruz kids and I think I just wanted to be him so I literally studied his Surfing up and down. When he surfers it was like all my attention was to Adam and how he used the rail and how he maneuvered the board. It's hard to find a guy that doesn't jump around on a surfboard.
Like Taylor Knox, he doesn't jump around, he uses all rail. Adam Rapogol, all rail. That is Surfing to me when you're finding speed through your rail and not having to hop around and that's what's fun watching them surfers or watching Adam surf growing up because it's a point break and you can watch him just use a rail, you know, front hand just all the way through and it was just like I think that just soaked in and that's what I wanted so I was just dead set on being that kind of surfers and that's what drove me to become what I am or I mean the kind of Surfing I chose to be. I like to use the rail a lot, that's definitely what I perceive.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I fall into the same category. I think I'd rather do a full on rail turn than anything else.
Bud Freitas
It's so good. I mean doing a big air, I'm not going to do a huge air but like you lay one down on rail and you come out of it and do it again, it doesn't get better than that. Because you're just putting all your oomph into it and you're just laying it on rail and you're finding your board is like the best feeling.
Michael Frampton
So when you say you were studying the surfers, your favorite surfers and how they Surfing on rail, what exactly do you mean by that? Were you watching footage of them?
Bud Freitas
So I was like, now I think of all of us as friends, we'd have surfers movies at my house 24 -7. But yet alone, I could literally walk 30 steps and then sit on the rail which is right on the cliff and it looks straight at the point break and I could just watch them surfers the whole time. And that would take time so I just watched this whole session. Best thing ever, it was so cool because there'd be times where Kieran Horn, Chris Gallagher, Adam Rapogel, they'd Dall-E out there shredding. It was just like more of a movie to us than anything. It was just like entertainment, we're just watching it was so fun. All the kids up there were just in awe watching this.
Michael Frampton
So if you get a client coming to you saying, I really want to smooth out my Surfing and use my rail more, I think most people fall in the opposite category. Like you said, they're kind of hopping around trying to pump for speed, they want to throw the tail. How do you ease them into that new way of thinking for Surfing on rail?
Bud Freitas
So I think one of the biggest things missed in surfing now is people just jump straight to a shortboard or they just bypass the biggest part of Surfing, which I think you got to learn the fundamentals. And if you grab a longboard, if you learn from a longboard and kind of make your steps into Surfing, I think you're going to find surfing will come a little bit easier and you'll actually find how a surfboard works because you're not going to get on a longboard and jump around. If you want to pick up speed on longboard, you don't just jump and try and get speed, you're going to have to hold the rail and you're going to make that section. And I think that's a lot of things that's missing in today's age of Surfing. People just see the stuff on TV and they're like, I want to go on movies and I want to surfers like that guy. I think you got to take the time and really learn how to ride a surfboard. And you jump on a nine foot board, that's a lot of board and even say 10 footer, you got to keep that thing from nose diving or just keep that thing on rail, set a rail on those things. It's pretty hard. And I think a lot of people miss that step in Surfing.
So that's one of the things I always encourage. Like when I was having bad times on shortboards and I was struggling with my surfing when I was doing contests and stuff, I learned this from Adam Rapogel actually. He's like, dude, if you're struggling on a shortboard, go get this. It was a seven foot board I had bought for my little sister. It was like a hybrid thing. And I'd go out there and I'd cruise and I'd find my rail, I'd find my Surfing again, and I'd jump back on my shortboard and it would put all my fundamentals back into it. And I'd be able to use it. Once I use it, I'd be able to find my groove again. I think that's a hard thing. It's like, even on shortboards, you just get in a weird funk and sometimes you need to step back, ride a little bit bigger board, get a little flow going and then you jump on your shortboard and you can just light it up.
Michael Frampton
Do you get much resistance when you suggest longboarding to people?
Bud Freitas
No, but the younger kids, yes, because they're more embarrassed of it. I think as an adult, I think a lot of them like, okay, yeah, I'll try. Because you're going get some older guys that are like, I want to move down to a shortboard. I'm like, how about you figure out this longboard and then we'll move to a hybrid and then hybrid down. And I think a lot of them, they take it into it, but I think the kids are going to have a harder time because they're going to see their friends riding shortboards and they don't want to be the odd duck out.
So I think that's the challenge. But I would recommend to any kid that is pursuing a Surfing career or competitive surfing, I would highly recommend them starting to just longboard once in a while or even like when you have those flaws, when you have those moments where you're just not feeling it, get on a longboard and you'll learn and you'll find it again.
Michael Frampton
What exactly are you forced to do on a longer board that you don't have to do on a shortboard?
Bud Freitas
You have to slow it down. Everything slows down and you have to pay attention to what you're doing.
You know, like when you're paddling in a wave, you don't get to just jump up. You got to look at where the nose is going.
So you get up, hold the nose, you pull a big bottom turn, you hold it, then you set your line and that's all rail. Then you set a line, you're jamming. You want to do a cutback, you're not just going to wrap it, you're going to slow it down and you're going to use your body to turn that board because it's a big board. And if you're doing that on a longboard, you'll get on a shortboard and it'll feel like featherweight and you can just light it up.
Michael Frampton
So if someone wants to learn how to surfers a shortboard faster, they need to jump on a longboard and slow things down first.
Bud Freitas
I just feel like it will just mentally, it just puts you in the next, because when you get on that board, like I said, it's going to feel so light and you'll start jamming with it because you get to move the board around. So you're going to be able to speed you want to do as before, like you get on longboard, you want to start jamming. It's not like that. You're going to have to kind of like find it. You're going to have to groove with it.
And then you go to a shortboard, you can jam.
Michael Frampton
So I guess when you slow things down, it really teaches you more about like wave awareness and body awareness as well.
Bud Freitas
That's another point too. A lot of people come to me and ask me, I want to know how to read waves. I want to know what I'm looking for. That's like a tough one because my, like what I choose in a wave or what I'm looking for in waves can be completely different.
Like what you look or the way you see a wave. So that's always been a challenge for me because people are like, I want to know where to go. I'm like, you could always use point of contact, like on the beach, like, here's the lineup. You could use that. But I think another thing is people reading waves.
Like I'm looking for a walled up wave. I'm sure you are too. But like a lot of those people don't understand what that means or what that is. That's an interesting one too is wave selection.
Like I want a walled one so I can get going on the thing. I don't want some little mush bowl.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
I saw you on a longboard and you had a grom on the front of the longboard as well. Is that a strategy you use for teaching?
Bud Freitas
No, the little guy was scared. And that one, he was super scared to be by himself.
And then I'm like, here, I'll just take you on this big old stand up. Went out there and he was getting psyched. He got so stoked. He like took his fear away because he was right next to me holding me. And it's funny because he kept, he'd stand up and look back and I'm going to hold my hand. And I'm like, nope, you can't do that.
You know, and then it grew onto it. And now the kid can Surfing too. His name's Bob. Good little surfers.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. That would have been a big learning curve for him, you know, getting over that straight away.
Michael Frampton
Fear, like.
Bud Freitas
Yeah. That's a tough one. A lot of kids are, it's just the ocean in general. It's a scary place no matter what it is. And I'm so, that's something I always preach to people.
Like, you don't know what the ocean's going to do to you. You don't know what it's going to serve you. A wave, I've had like a two foot wave just beat me down. And I'm just like, how does that work? I don't understand that.
And then you can take a 10 footer and the thing just rolls right over you. So just, it's interesting how the ocean works. And I always make sure whoever I'm teaching is like pay attention to that stuff.
Michael Frampton
So when people ask you about reading waves, what do you usually say to them?
Bud Freitas
That's a tough one. Just because, like I said, it's just like what you choose.
Like your wave selection is way different than mine's going to be. Everyone's like assuming they're just going to pal out and be like, you're going to tell me what kind of wave to go for, right?
Like, no, you're going to have to look at it. You're going to have to find the wave. And it's funny because the way I look at a wave, like I said, there's so much different than the way you look at a wave. Ideally, what I do when I take them out there is I sit next to them and I kind of just show them how the lineup looks or how it works and how the different sections work.
So it kind of gives them positioning. And then from there, it's like even watching those sets come in, they have troubles. They like ask me, how do you know when they're coming? I'm like, that's another thing. You're just going to have to look on the horizon. You're going to find it coming. And once you get to that point, I think once they ride a few waves, then they kind of get an idea because they get a feel for what the waves can offer. For instance, I always work at the point.
So it's a real, it's a right hand point. Some waves are going to be super soft.
Some are going to have a wall. So I can kind of fill it out for them.
So you can see one's coming in. It'll be a nice walled up wave. And I'll let them know like here, this one's going to have a wall to it. They'll ride it. That was a killer one that got so much speed, blah.
And then you put them on like a mushy one. And they're, that one wasn't that good. And you're like, okay, now you can like kind of justify what this has to offer and this one has to offer. You're looking down the line, what are you going to find?
So I think that's kind of a tough one though. I think it just comes with age. I think over time with Surfing, it's just more you surf and more you're in the water, you're going to see it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Well, that's a good strategy. You just said this, show them the contrast between a wall -y fast wave and a slow fat wave.
You know, you could cue them on what they saw before the wave, et cetera. And it might spark them to, I guess a part of it is really looking for the detail, isn't it?
Bud Freitas
For sure. That's funny because like I said, I'm looking for a walled up wave. I think it just comes with taste too.
Like over time, like you've been Surfing for X amount of years and you've seen over the time, like you know what you want, you know what you're looking for. Like, especially when there's a nice led you want, like say you're looking for some barrels, you know when it's coming, it's doubling up, that's the one I want.
And then you compare that to a big old mush ball. You're like, this sucks.
You know, this isn't what I want. And like, I think too, you kind of get jaded as you get to the next level too with Surfing is that wave choice is like, I'll sit on the lineup for 45 minutes and I'll go on a wave because I know what I'm looking for. There's a wave where I live, it's called sewer peak. And when we get South swells, it's a nice big wedge, but the sets in South swells, it'll take 45 minutes. It's a super long walls and everyone's like, they'll be going for everything. And I'll just sit there like, how do you do that? How do you just weigh? I'm like, I know what I want. I know I'm going to get, and I'll just get one and get barreled across the whole thing. And I'm like, that's what I waited for. That's what I want. I think over time too, with people learning to read a wave, that's the challenge too.
Cause you'll see like when someone's learning, they'll go on anything, everything that's coming their way and they'll just take off because they're like the super stoked, happy surfers. And so I think, like I said, I think just over time you just, you get in the rhythm and you just know what you want.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Well, you make a good point there is that you can't really choose the right wave if you don't know the type of wave you're looking for.
Bud Freitas
Right. So you've Right.
Michael Frampton
Got to know what you want to do with your Surfing and look for the waves that are going to help you to do that.
Bud Freitas
But it's so, but that's the thing though, you'll sit there for 45 minutes cause you think you're going to get the best one and you never get it. You're like, dude. And all these little ones are going by and you're like, no, I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm waiting.
And then finally one an hour or something. But I think that's just me being salty. That's what it is.
Michael Frampton
So what inspired you to move from being a pro to being a coach?
Bud Freitas
I did the tour for a couple of years, had okay success with the first couple of years. And then I got burnt out. Just, I think at the time in my life I wasn't really ready for it. I think I was young and still wanted to go do things like party and do all that fun stuff with girls, blah. And it kind of threw me out.
And then I took a couple of years off from Surfing completely from like 25 to 26. I just like stepped away. I surfers, but I wasn't really driven to do it as hard as I was because I kind of got burnt from it.
And then I got like a second wind and I just started, I got back into it. I like did this film interview and that kind of like sparked it again. It's online. It's one I did and I'm doing an interview and that's like, I went and got a job, stepped away from Surfing that way.
Like I didn't, wasn't getting paid. So I was like, I'm going to go get a job. Tried it out for a year. It was overworking.
So I was like, I'm going to get back into the surfers thing and try and get another go. And at the time it was a good timing because I got linked up with Fox racing, which they were moving heavily into surfers. And that kind of sparked me going into it. And so I had a good start to that with it, with him the first year with him.
And then as it was moving on, I didn't know which way I was going to go Surfing. It was a new contest or just free surf and started free surfing.
And then I decided I'm going to start a surfers school with coaching. And I started with one kid, Matthew Reagan.
And then from there I picked up a few more other kids, but after using or working with Matthew is like when it really moved forward. And I was like, okay, this is something I want to do. And I want to help these guys out, you know, these kids, because when their parents are coming to me, they're like, I don't know what to do.
You know, I don't really surfers. So whatever you can have.
So then I started having like three or four kids a week, giving them lessons after school. So it's pretty fun because that's what moved it on.
And then I started the Surfing school, so forth. It just kept going.
Michael Frampton
Do you have many older clients in their thirties, sort of intermediate surfers wanting to?
Bud Freitas
I do. And you know, what's funny is I have, like you said, I get these emails and they're always these questions. Hey, man, I've been Surfing for X amount of time. I'm trying to get to the next level, but I don't know how to do this. Or can you help me get to this? Or, you know, there's all these little questions and all those ones we've touched base on. I want to write a short board. I want to learn how to read the waves better. There's like all these things. And I get a lot of recurring clients and they usually come from San Francisco or around the city area. It seems like a lot of them. But I have one of them, Larry Sullivan, which he's come down for since the beginning. And he's surfers years prior and like took a big break. And he came to me and he goes, Hey, I want to learn how to surfers again. Or I want you to help me get to the next level. And so he still comes down and he comes down quite often. And those reoccurring ones are fun because being an adult and like me being a little bit younger than these guys and like teaching them, it kind of cracks me up because they're listening to me. And like, I don't know, just personally, like it always seems like you learn a lot more from your elders, but it's fun because they get the psych and it's cool because I can pal out with them. And it's like having a kid with me, but they're a grown adult and I'm like getting able to be in the water and coach them. And it's just classic because you'll see the same stoke that you see on a kid, on a grown adult. It's hilarious.
Like for instance, I have this one client, she lived in Napa Valley, which was about two hours. And she'd drive down every Friday to go Surfing with me. She'd been surfing for 20 years and she was from Malibu and fell out of it because she moved inland in Napa. And she'd come down every Friday and we'd go out there and shred and help her get into waves because she was riding a shoreboard and she got the bug. And she came down on like a hybrid at first. I ended up getting on a shoreboard and she just went on her way. It was rad.
Michael Frampton
What do you see as the biggest obstacle hindering people's Surfing capabilities?
Bud Freitas
I think it's people just shooting for the stars. You know what I mean? I think people, you see this stuff online or you see videos of it and I think people just assume that you can get on the surfboard and get to that level. And I think, like I said, going back to the fundamentals, I think that takes a big chunk of Surfing out for people. They miss that step of their surfing.
So I think the hardest or the biggest challenge for people right now is just, I would say it like this, is they need to learn how to surfers. And I think if it's starting from scratch and starting from the beginning up again, it's going to help a lot of people in the long run. And it's going to take a lot of those people out in the lineup thinking they rip and really they're just jumping around on the surfboard. And I think just riding a longboard and even, I mean, it doesn't have to be a longboard, it could be an eight foot hybrid or whatever. I think that will help a lot of people in the long run. One, it'll understand a wave better by piling into it and what, you know, controlling a board. Two, just riding a wave on a board that size is a lot harder than it is on a shortboard. I think just being able to maneuver a board like that and then it gets you to that next level. And I just, one thing I wish a lot of the kids, like if you look at the kids nowadays, they can punt huge airs, but yet they can't do a turn.
You know what I mean? Which baffles me, it just sucks because it takes away from Surfing. Now it's like, I see these kids, they rip. I'm not going to say they don't rip, but they'll miss 10 big sections just to do one air. You're like, what happened the rest of the wave? That air was amazing, but yet to get there, all you did was just widen your stance and hop all the way down this line.
Michael Frampton
I've never done much longboarding, but I feel inspired to buy a longboard now. Do Go get it.
Bud Freitas
It.
Michael Frampton
It makes sense.
Bud Freitas
No, it totally does. But instead of getting a longboard, get like a hybrid or something for you since even that will slow you down a bit.
Like grab an eight foot hybrid or seven six hybrid, mess around with that thing for a minute and you'll get on your shortboard and you'll look at it so different.
Michael Frampton
Is there any particular longboarders who you would recommend people watch to learn from?
Bud Freitas
CJ Nelson a good one. He's from Santa Cruz. He's a great longboarder. Wingnut's another great longboarder. Taylor Jensen can longboard really well. Alex Knost is a great example of that Surfing ability. He can ride a longboard like no one else and he could rip on a shortboard.
Michael Frampton
Do you still do a bit of longboarding?
Bud Freitas
I do when it's small and if I'm riding like the foam boards and stuff. I mean, I'll ride this. I have this thing called the Creeper. It's like this little wide, like six four, like it's a hog and it's like a big old like hybrid thing and I'll jam on that thing when I'm feeling it. It's super fun. It's like a quad fish.
Like it's pretty good size. I mean, it's pretty much stand up on the thing floating. It's a big old thing. You can jam on the thing. It's so fun.
Michael Frampton
So there's probably a lot of shortboarders listening that might be inspired to go out and get a longboard and start trying. What's some advice on, first of all, what type of longboard are we looking for?
Bud Freitas
Just get a big old hog, like one of those big old nose riding longboards. Not a high performance longboard. Just get a big old log.
Like one of those ones where you look at it like that thing is a mess. Those are what's going to, that's what's going to teach you how to ride a board.
I mean, there's the high performance ones got rocker and it's kind of sharper rails and stuff. No, go get like one of the big old logs, like their logs, 10 foot log and just see what you can do with it.
Michael Frampton
What are the limitations of that sort of board? I mean, are there certain types of wave you just wouldn't even think about trying to go out in?
Bud Freitas
Nah, why not? Why don't you go test your will with it? See if you can make a drop on one of those longboards. Those guys used to do it at a YMA. They used to ride those literally logs at YMA.
You know what I mean? If they can do it, you should be able to do it. Take a steep drop on one of those and boy, you'll be super satisfied.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Obviously, I mean, if someone's literally going out for the first say month on a log.
Yeah. And then all of a sudden their local break turns on and it's six to eight foot barreling. Is it dangerous to take a log out?
Bud Freitas
I would say so. Yeah. Especially like that. If it's like the bottom, I wouldn't do it. But in the meantime, when you're riding all the smaller days, I'm sure there's softer waves wherever you live, unless you live at like, I don't know, only beach break. But there's usually a soft wave you can go ride a longboard at. And I think that's what you'll find.
Like I'm like, there's it's just a real soft wave. It's called 38th where I live. And that's a great place where I could go ride a longboard because it just rolls. It's kind of like a Malibu style wave and it just rolls.
So that's like a good way to do it. But if it gets bigger than obviously I would just jump on the shoreboard. But I think in between all that, you can ride a longboard and get a feel for it.
Michael Frampton
What about at beach breaks?
Bud Freitas
That's what I was getting at. I was like, that's a tough one because longboards at beach breaks are no fun. I'm kind of spoiled because I live on a point break.
So it's like that's the difference. And I'm sure you could find some kind of soft like Doheny wave where it's just kind of rolling sandbar somewhere. If you're not, then you're going to be riding a hybrid or something like that.
So I'll be a less bored but still have enough to you where you have to work for it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's a good point. What's an example of a good hybrid for such a thing?
Bud Freitas
The Advance is a great one. The Advance is a perfect hybrid because it's got the volume and it's got the shape of almost like it's got a nice swallowtail to it. But it's a beefy board. But you could still turn it and you can still put it on rail. It's not like it's going to limit you just going straight. You're going to be able to turn the board even at 7 '2", 7 '6". You'll still be able to turn the thing. I think that's a great board even for a man like my size. I weigh let's say 170. I could still maneuver a 7 '2". Anything over like 35 liters.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so I'm guessing you're on about 26, 27 liters on your shortboard. So you're adding another almost 10 liters to that.
Bud Freitas
When I hold it, I'm like I could stand up to this thing no problem. But like that's what's fun because then you pile into it, you get into it easy and you start cruising and having fun and like just like Surfing. That's what you're doing. You're surfing.
Michael Frampton
Cool. What are you riding at the moment?
Bud Freitas
I got a 5 '7". Sci -fi. I have a 5 '4". Omni. I have what else do I have? And then I have a custom which is a round tail. It's like a thumbtail. It's 5 '11". 26 liters. Future fins. Goes off.
Michael Frampton
What's your favorite surfers movie?
Bud Freitas
Damn, that's a tough one. My favorite surf movie. Good Times. Taylor Steele. That was like that one.
And then Tony Roberts movies were Progression Session. That was a game changer for me because all the Santa Cruz. The Kill. That was another good one.
Yeah, there's pretty much all Tony Roberts movies were like the go -to's. But Taylor Steele too at that time was like changing the game.
Michael Frampton
Cool, man. Thank you so much for your time. Where can people find you online or on social media?
Bud Freitas
They could find me on my surfers school website, surfschoolsantacruz .com. They can find me on Instagram at Buddy Littles.
And then I have a Facebook just Bud Freitas. Awesome.
Michael Frampton
All right, bud. Thank you so much for your time.
Bud Freitas
Right on, man. I appreciate it. Thanks.
Michael Frampton
For tuning in to the surfers Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at surfers Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep Surfing.
021: BEN MACARTNEY - Chief Surf Forecaster at Coastalwatch
Apr 06, 2017
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: The Art and Science of Surf Forecasting with Ben Macartney
What if understanding the science behind waves could help you catch the best waves every time? In this episode, surf forecaster Ben Macartney reveals the secrets of predicting and scoring perfect surf conditions.
From great circle paths to local bathymetry, every wave you ride is shaped by a complex set of factors. Whether you're planning your next surf trip or mastering your local break, Ben's expert insights will help you connect the dots between surf forecasts and real-world conditions.
Learn how to analyze swell charts beyond the basics to uncover hidden gems at your favorite spots.
Discover why understanding wind direction, period, and secondary swells is critical for predicting surf quality.
Gain exclusive tips on using live wind feeds and buoy data to refine your surf planning.
Hit play and unlock the forecasting tools and techniques you need to take your surfing to the next level.
Ben has been the Head forecaster at Coastalwatch for ten years. In this episode, he explains how waves are made, what he looks for when making surf predictions, dispels some common misbeliefs about reading synoptic charts, describes some of the nuances of swells and most importantly educates us on how to find the best waves. We also talk about how secondary and tertiary swells affect the primary swell and your local break. If you have never looked at a synoptic chart, isobar map, satellite image etc, then this episode may be a little confusing (unless you are in front of google & can look up the referenced images). Below are some links to some introductory tutorials that will get you up to speed pretty quickly. Most of the references are based on Australian, and Indonesian surf.
Notable Quotes:
"Waves travel along great circle paths, following the curvature of the earth, which is why storms far below Australia can still send swells to the East Coast."
"The difference between a great session and an average one often comes down to understanding subtle shifts in swell direction, period, and local wind conditions."
"Waves thin as they spread across vast distances, but their power remains—it’s how a storm thousands of miles away can still produce clean surf."
"Keep trying, keep exploring, and keep learning. The more you observe and experiment, the more you’ll score."
"Owen Wright’s top-to-bottom surfing is a masterclass in precision and power—it’s clean, critical, and inspiring to watch."
Waves are primarily generated by wind at the sea surface, not by tides or currents.
The key factors for wave growth are the strength, length, and duration of the wind fetch.
Storm systems with a combination of low and high pressure systems generate the strongest wind fetches for wave growth.
The orientation and movement of the storm system relative to the coast affects the swell direction and size.
Secondary swells and wind swells can interact with the primary swell, affecting wave quality.
Local bathymetry and geography influence how swells refract and focus at specific surf breaks.
Swells follow great circle paths due to the Earth's curvature, allowing remote swells to reach distant coastlines.
Atmospheric pressure changes can affect sea levels, impacting surf conditions at reef breaks and slabs.
Observing and understanding local swell patterns is crucial for predicting surf conditions accurately.
Outline
Wave Generation by Wind
Waves are primarily generated by wind at the sea surface, not by tides or currents.
The interaction between low and high pressure systems creates wind gradients that generate waves.
While low pressure systems (cyclones) are often associated with strong winds, high pressure systems play an equally important role in wave generation.
The pressure gradient between high and low systems is what drives wind formation.
Fetch Concept in Wave Formation
A fetch is a key concept in wave formation, defined as the length of water over which wind blows in one direction for a given time at a given speed.
Three critical parameters of a fetch are wind speed, size (length) of the fetch, and duration.
The constancy of wind direction and speed over time compounds wave growth.
Role of Tropical Cyclones in Swell Generation
Tropical cyclones alone often don't generate significant swell due to their small geographical area.
It is the interaction between cyclones and high pressure systems that creates broad, stable wind belts capable of generating substantial swell.
For example, Tropical Cyclone Winston in 2016 generated significant swell not from its core winds, but from a broader area of easterly winds set up between the cyclone and a high pressure system.
High Pressure Systems and Swell Generation
The stability and negligible movement of high pressure systems can be the primary driver of swell.
This phenomenon was seen in recent East Coast events where a big high pressure system with a deep trough below generated significant swell without a stereotypical rotating low pressure system.
Swell Direction Determination
Swells spread radially from their source, but the main swell direction is determined by the most consistent stretch of wind around a weather system.
The orientation of high and low pressure systems determines the alignment of the fetch and the resulting swell direction.
Importance of Wave Period in Swell Propagation
Wave period is a crucial factor in swell propagation.
Higher wind speeds generate higher wave periods, allowing swell to travel and radiate more effectively across ocean basins.
Wind swells with shorter periods dissipate quickly and are more susceptible to headwinds and currents.
Influence of Fetch Orientation and Low Pressure Movement on Swell
The orientation of the fetch to the coast, distance from the coast, and movement of the low pressure system all influence swell generation and propagation.
A low pressure system moving away from the coast generates less swell than one moving towards the coast, as the swell-producing winds have less time to act on the sea surface.
Captured Fetch Phenomenon
A 'captured fetch' occurs when the strongest winds move in the same direction and at the same speed as the waves being produced.
This results in phenomenal wave growth over short periods.
Calculating Wave Speed
Wave speed can be calculated by multiplying the wave period by 1.5.
For example, a 20-second period swell travels at 30 knots in deep water.
This relationship allows forecasters to estimate swell arrival times by measuring distances on maps and dividing by the calculated speed.
Factors Determining Wave Period
Wind speed, fetch length, and duration all contribute to determining wave period.
Strong winds (40-60 knots) blowing for 24-48 hours can generate a big, long-period swell.
However, lower strength winds (35 knots) blowing for several days can also produce high-period swells, albeit not as high as stronger winds.
Interaction of Multiple Swells
Multiple swells often interact, creating complex sea states.
Primary swells may be accompanied by secondary or tertiary swells, which can significantly affect wave quality and surfing conditions.
For example, a clean, long-period ground swell may be disrupted by shorter-period wind swells, creating less ideal surfing conditions.
Impact of Multiple Swells on Different Breaks
Beach breaks may sometimes benefit from multiple swell interactions, creating peaky conditions with numerous take-off spots.
In contrast, point breaks or reef breaks may become less favorable due to these interactions.
Role of Local Geography and Bathymetry
Local geography and bathymetry play crucial roles in how swells interact with coastlines.
Factors such as headlands, bays, and offshore trenches can focus or disperse swell energy, creating unique conditions at different spots along a coastline.
Effect of Local Winds on Surf Conditions
Local wind effects can significantly alter surf conditions.
Coastal geography can create pockets of offshore or variable winds in certain areas, even when the prevailing wind is onshore.
For example, nor-northeasterly winds can become cross-offshore at Tamarama due to the headland's effect.
Atmospheric Pressure and Sea Level
Atmospheric pressure affects sea level, with low pressure systems allowing the ocean to expand and creating higher than normal sea levels.
This effect can be particularly noticeable during East Coast low pressure systems.
Seasonal Differences in Breaks
Some breaks in South Australia are known as 'winter breaks' or 'summer breaks' due to the seasonal differences in atmospheric pressure and resulting sea levels.
Great Circle Paths and Swell Directions
Swells follow the curvature of the Earth along great circle paths, which can lead to counterintuitive swell directions over long distances.
For example, westerly winds in the South Atlantic can generate swells that reach Indonesia after traveling over 6,000 nautical miles.
Long-Range Swell Forecasting
The East Coast of Australia can receive ground swells from remote areas southeast of New Zealand due to these great circle paths.
Understanding these paths is crucial for accurate long-range swell forecasting.
Swell Attenuation Over Distances
Swell attenuation occurs as waves spread out over vast distances, thinning the energy and reducing wave heights.
However, long-period swells can still travel enormous distances with minimal energy loss in deep water.
Consistent Methodology for Analyzing Forecast Data
Develop a consistent methodology for analyzing forecast data, sticking to the same data sets and tools for comparison over time.
This approach builds confidence in interpreting forecast information.
Significance of Secondary and Tertiary Swells
Pay attention to secondary and tertiary swells, not just the primary swell, as these can significantly affect wave quality and surfing conditions.
Building Knowledge Base Through Observation
Observe actual conditions and compare them to forecasts to build a knowledge base of how different swell and wind combinations affect local breaks.
Utilizing Tools for Comprehensive Understanding
Utilize tools like wave trackers, detailed written forecasts, and live cameras to get a comprehensive understanding of current and upcoming conditions.
Exploring Different Spots Based on Conditions
Be prepared to explore different spots, as conditions can vary significantly even over short distances due to local effects and swell interactions.
Managing Expectations in Surf Forecasting
Manage expectations by understanding the complexities of swell generation and propagation.
Recognize that many factors contribute to actual surf conditions beyond simple swell height and period predictions.
Transcription
It's a beautiful thing about wave growth. It can be described mathematically.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better.
In the inner, you've got all this chaos happening. There's waves bouncing around everywhere.
Michael Frampton
My guest for this episode is surf forecaster McCartney. Is a surfer from Bondi Beach in Sydney. Rips, as you can see by the photo on Instagram, charging a nice big left -hander there. But professionally Ben is the head forecaster for Coastal Watch and has been for the last 10 years.
In this episode, we learn how waves are formed and how to predict them, really, and we go into some of the details about how to read maps and some of the nuances of swell formation. If you have never looked at a synoptic map with the intention of thinking about what waves are coming from a system, then the second half of the interview might lose you a little bit. So you'll either have to be in front of Google or on the Coastal Watch website, there is a whole section on forecasting tutorials that will give you the basics and a lot of visuals.
There is links to this in the show notes. Ben is also currently traveling around Australia doing a forecasting workshop with Nick Carroll. There's one in Victoria on the 15th of April. I'll put details to that in the show notes as well as on the Facebook page. Relax and learn a little bit more about surf forecasting.
Ben Macartney
Okay, all right.
Michael Frampton
So, where do waves come from?
Ben Macartney
From wind at the sea surface. It's not to do with the tides of the moon. It's not to do with currents as such. It's 99 .99 % wind generated, yeah. And everything we look at, the way we study the forecast, the way I guess, analyze the forecast, it's all in the context of surface wind over the ocean.
Michael Frampton
Strong wind is usually typically associated with a cyclone or a low pressure system.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, that's right. And I think in all surfers' minds, that's the, you know, the golden synoptic feature that we look for, if you like, the stereotypical cyclone or big low, deep low pressure. And they are what generate wind at the sea surface, but it's always in conjunction with a high pressure system on the other side. And I've come to realize over the years that often it's the high pressure that's just as important, if not more important than the low that you're looking at. It's the gradient between them that generates the wind in a way. There's this imbalance in the atmosphere in air pressure, and that the rebalancing process is what generates all this wind.
So to just say, yeah, it's all about low pressure systems is a bit of a misnomer or a misconception in a way. I can think of a lot of good examples, especially when you talk about tropical cyclones. In isolation, tropical cyclones generate incredibly strong clockwise winds over a really small geographical area, like a category four or five system can produce wind speeds of 100 to 150 knots, which in kilometres is almost double that.
So incredibly strong. If you think about the winds we see here on the coast that can do damage to houses, they're just 35, 45 knots, 35 to 50 knots. You think about wind speeds that are double or triple that, that's incredible forces at work. But yet in isolation, a tropical cyclone out to sea somewhere is just like a storm in a teacup. It won't actually generate much swell of note unless it is within immediate proximity of the coastline.
So to go back to surface wind at the sea surface, we describe it, these winds, in the context of a fetch. A fetch is a length of water over which a wind blows in one direction for a given timeframe at a given speed. And I have, you can say there's three key sort of parameters we look for with wind at the sea surface. That's the strength of the fetch, the actual wind speed, the length or size of the fetch, how many hundred nautical miles it might cover or thousands of nautical miles even, and the duration.
So how long it lasts for. And by that I mean that wind blowing in the same direction over that same surface area. Because that's what compounds wave growth is that constancy or that continuum of wind blowing in the same direction and the same speed.
So yeah, so to go back to a tropical cyclone, if you've just got these clockwise winds, you know, blowing round and round within 300 nautical square miles, it's the resulting swell that emanates from it is actually dissipates really fast and it doesn't really amount to much. What generates the swell? We saw this with tropical cyclone Winston last year.
You know, that storm system set up over the, did a huge anti -clockwise loop around the Southwest Pacific and its life cycle took in about 26 days. It's almost a whole month.
So I did this tour of the Southwest Pacific and for the first half of its life cycle, it kind of generated a bit of swell and weakened and moved away from Australia. And then it did this big loop and came back to the West across Fiji and re -intensified. And it was at that point that it set up, it wasn't that the core winds itself that were the real source of swell. It was this broader area of easterly winds south of the storm that was set up in conjunction with a big high over the Southwest Pacific. And it's this, it's almost like the hare and the tortoise, you know, it's this broad, stable area belt of winds that isn't even that strong. It might just be compared to the core wind speeds. It's only things like 25 to 35 knots, like a fraction of the core wind speeds, yet it's set up over, you know, a thousand nautical miles. And it remains in place for several days. And that's what generates swell. That's those winds constantly blowing. And it just compounds the size of the deep water swell hour by hour, if you like. And that's what I look for in forecast storm systems is I'm not just looking for a low or a cyclone or a really deep system. It's always about the balancing effect between the high and low. The last event we just had here on the East Coast, it was basically just a big high pressure system with a deep trough below. There was no real, there was a closed low on it, but your stereotypical, you know, rotating low pressure system just, that we look for with the tightly spaced isobars, it didn't exist. It's really, it was really about the stability of the high pressure and that negligible movement of the high over the Tasman Sea that is actually the real driver of the swell.
Michael Frampton
So if there was a really deep low, let's say it was sitting in between New Zealand and Australia, people often think that there would be that pressure system would have a ripple effect. Whereas in there would be a big circle of swell that would emanate out everywhere from the center of that low. Is there any of that going on?
Ben Macartney
Absolutely. Swells do spread radially from their source.
Michael Frampton
But that's not the main swell that comes from there. It's more, you're looking for where the most consistent stretch of wind is around that system.
Yeah.
Ben Macartney
I guess you look at storm systems in the context of what they're interacting with. So IE, a high pressure system. Now that hypothetical high pressure system will sit up against the low at a certain angle. The high might come in from the southwest, or it might be supporting it directly from the south. It can even be coming in directly from the west. And it's all about the orientation of the high and low in the, you know, which way they're aligned. Because that will determine the alignment of the fetch and which way the belt of winds, which is the wind fetch is pointing.
So if you have, you know, a big high coming in from the west and our hypothetical low over the Tasman Sea is rotating, then the resulting gradient is actually south to north. Because it's interacting with the eastern flank of the high. It's hard to take all this in without a visual reference.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
We'll give listeners a visual reference maybe on one. Yeah. They can look up. But so there might be a deep low in between New Zealand and Australia. And we've got some ripple effects swell sort of going everywhere from the chaos. But the main swell is gonna be where the compression between the two systems happen.
And then there's a long stretch of consistent wind. Yeah. And that's gonna be the main swell.
Ben Macartney
And the swell will be driven in that direction, the same direction as the wind. And of course there will be radial spread.
So there will be swell spreading out either side of that primary directional band. The core direction of all those winds. Within it, you've got all this chaos happening and there's waves bouncing around everywhere. And so it's not a wave growth and wave formation is not just a linear thing. It doesn't just, you know, go one, two, three, four feet over X number of hours. It's kind of, there's all this chaos in there and the physics involved in calculating it.
I mean that, yeah, it's depending on the size of the storm. It's a bit like a bomb going off in the sense that you've got all this energy being released at the surface and it's spreading radially. And there's varying degrees of how waves propagate and spread across ocean basins that are really contingent on wind speeds. Higher the wind speeds, the higher the wave period and things like that. And the higher the wave period, the more effectively this swell will travel and radiate out across an ocean basin. Conversely, a really weak fetch that doesn't exist for, that only sets up for a short timeframe and is only short in length will probably only generate a wind swell which is really susceptible to things like headwinds and currents and will dissipate before it can travel out beyond, you know, 500 to 1 ,000 nautical miles. They dissipate very quickly, these deep water swells. It's not just the fetch. We're looking at the strength, duration, et cetera, as I discussed before. It's the orientation of the fetch to the coast and the distance of the fetch to the coast. There's all these other little nuances like which way is the low and therefore the fetch moving. That has a huge influence. If a low is retracting away from the coast, then those swell -producing winds are moving backward away from, say, the coast and therefore they're not acting on any one area of sea surface long enough to generate a large swell. I've seen this a few times this year, actually, and I think we're going to see another example this week. This low that's forming off the coast on Thursday, it's forming east of Bass Strait, and it's just going to slip away to the east or east -southeast even. And because of that, even though it's a substantial low, those swell -producing winds are retracting and so they don't have the time to actually work on one area of sea surface long enough to whip up a particularly large swell. We'll still get waves. It's kind of like a two --- to four -foot swell, maybe three to four feet at its peak. Whereas if that same low -pressure system happened to be tracking north into the Tasman Sea or back towards the coast, it'd bring the swell -producing winds along with the swell being produced, if you like, and that has an incredible compounding effect on the swell.
So the strongest winds, when they move with the swell being produced in the same direction, and if you happen to have it travel at the same speed as the waves being produced, then that's called a captured fetch, and that's where you get phenomenal wave growth, just within, you can have 20, 30 -foot seas within 24, 48 hours, stuff like that.
Michael Frampton
So how fast do waves move?
Ben Macartney
Well, a very easy way to figure that out is to multiply the wave period by 1 .5. It's a beautiful thing about wave growth. It can be described mathematically. And that's why we describe fetches in nautical miles and wind speeds in knots, because there's a direct relationship between them.
So in this case, if you had a wave period of 20 seconds, you multiply it by 1 .5, that's 30 knots. That's the deep water speed of a group of waves. That's how fast it's traveling through deep water. Obviously that changes as it approaches the coast, waves. As they begin to feel the sea floor, they begin to shoal and decelerate.
So they lose speed, substantial speed, before they actually, and as they break, they're virtually, they're almost standing still for a moment, I guess. But yeah, that's one way to, it's a very easy rule to follow. If you're looking at a wave map, a chart, and you're looking at a wave period map, particularly on the big ocean basins, like the Indian Ocean and Pacific, where you can, you know, swells have potential to travel for over a week before they hit somewhere. If you take a snapshot at a certain point in time, at the, say at the limit of the model run, which is seven days usually, you can look at the leading edge of a wave period band and calculate the distance to a given location. It might be Indonesia or Western Australia, say if you're in the Indian Ocean, or it might be New Zealand if you're in the Pacific. And if that leading edge of the swell is 20 seconds, then you know that it's traveling at 30 knots.
So you can measure the distance on Google Earth and then just divide it to see how long it'll take to arrive. Because if you measure it in nautical miles, then nautical miles divided by knots gives you the number you're looking for in hours.
Michael Frampton
The wind speed determines the period.
Ben Macartney
It plays a big factor, but again, it's in the context of the length of a fetch and the duration, how long it's blowing for. So you might have 50, 60 knot winds blowing like in a tropical cyclone, they might blow over one area for three hours before the system moves away. And so it's not gonna have much of an effect. But if you've got a big belt of winds that's really strong, 40 to 60 knots, and it's blowing for even just 24 hours or 48 hours, you get a really, you get a big swell out of it and long period swell, yeah. But by the same token, if you get a lower strength fetch of 35 knots, even if that blows for several days, you'll still get a high period swell, not as high.
So yeah, there is a direct relationship between wind speed and period, but it's always in the context of the size of a fetch and its duration. So there's no simple recipe there. You can't always just say yeah, we're gonna get a long period ground swell out of this because the winds are 45 knots. It's all in the context of those other factors. Okay, yeah.
Michael Frampton
The main swell is where the longest length of fetch is pointing to, would be this direction of the swell. But then you've got, like you said, you've got these ripple effect swells coming out of the system as well. Does that explain the smaller, less perfect waves in between the big sets on a day? Where you might have a swell, let's say you've got a two meter swell at 15 seconds, and then there's three waves every five minutes. But then there's all these other waves that aren't as clean coming in as well. Are they potentially coming from the same system?
Ben Macartney
Not necessarily, but if you assume they are, again, there's a lot of factors that go into that. If you talk about long range sources, like say a swell for Indonesia, where you're out at G -land and there's six to eight foot sets, but in between there's really constant three to five foot waves. And it's like, they're probably exhibiting different periods.
So the reason you can have a sea state like that, where you have all these different waves breaking different heights, and I think it boils down to the characteristics of a storm system and the winds within it. So usually from my experience anyway, it's the largest waves that are generated, the big six to eight foot set waves carry the longest intervals. They're generated at the height of the storm system's life cycle.
So say that occurs when the storm is 1 ,500 miles from Indonesia and you get 45 knot winds over 24 to 48 hours, stable fetch generates this ground swell that's hitting at 16, 17 seconds and they're the six to eight foot sets. What happens after that? Say the storm's travelling northeast towards Western Australia and it starts weakening. Suddenly the fetch has moved several hundred nautical miles further to the east and northeast and the wind speeds are 35 knots, 35, they've dropped 10 knots, but the fetch is still in place and maybe the alignment's changed a tiny bit, but it's still, it's actually closer to Indonesia than the strongest fetch area was at the storm's inception.
So what you effectively have is a new fetch. It's the same storm, but it's generating a new swell and that new swell will come in at lower periods of say 12 to 14 seconds and it won't be as big because 12 to 14 seconds swell will dissipate more, it's, the wind speeds aren't as strong so it hasn't whipped up as much swell, the storm's weakening, but what you can see happening is both of those swells arriving at the same time because say if the storm system has moved ahead of the ground swell it's produced, which is pretty common, they accelerate out to the east or northeast and they generate a much broader but weaker fetch within closer range of Indonesia, then suddenly you've got this additional mid -period energy in the mix and that can mix in with the anteceding ground swell and that's a really common effect of storm systems, big broad scale storm systems that generate, that have multiple stages in their life cycle.
Like some of these storms will intensify like below Madagascar and generate a fetch like that, super strong, then that lasts about 24 hours, it'll weaken for maybe a day or two and it'll still be generating 35 knot winds and then it redevelops as it comes in over the southeastern Indian Ocean below Indonesia and you get a renewed fetch of 40 to 60 knots or something and because of all those life cycles in the systems they can generate sort of unique swells within the broader swell itself and I guess that's what we don't necessarily see in some of the wave modelling we look at. It's all a simplification of a very complicated sea state.
So when we say yeah, look at those peak intervals, it's 17 seconds and wow, it's an approximation of the peak energy in the water based on a mathematical set of rules that's been applied by a person. A person's gone, okay, well we're gonna measure the top 30%, 35 % of waves and what their average wave period is and assign that as the peak height and period. But you can alter those variables and you'll get very different readings and that's why some models will show slightly different readings for wave period and height, things like that. For instance, if you look at significant wave height on a swell map, that's very different from swell wave height. Significant wave height is the wind swell added to the actual underlying swell.
So that's the total sea state. So you can have significant wave height might be 50 to 60 feet over the Southern Ocean somewhere, but that's just chaos. Within that, you've got all this multitude of different waves exhibiting different periods and frequencies, if you like.
So I think it's always something to keep in mind when you look at the wave modelling. It is a simplification of reality. And that's where analysing the fetch can give you a jump. Where you get a fetch that's travelling towards Indonesia over several days, if we stick with Indonesia as the example here, and you see that it's gone through several phases in its evolution. It started out at x speed, as I mentioned before, and changed to y speed and the location of the fetch has changed, but it's all generating swell for Indonesia. What that means is that you're going to have a much more energetic swell event with all these waves in between.
So while it's six to eight foot at G -land on the sets, in between it's just constant three to six foot waves. Really a lot of water moving down the reef, a lot of wave action on the reef. That's one of the beauties of surfing Indonesia is its exceptional exposure to storm systems over the Indian Ocean. Now the converse of that, a good example, is where you have a really zonal -oriented fetch. A zonal is west to east.
So in the instance where you've got a dominating high pressure over the central Indian Ocean, and it's suppressing storm activity. So the storms tracking below that high are pushed further south into polar latitudes, say below 50 degrees south.
Well, that's really, they're all polar fronts and lows moving through. The winds generated between that dominant high and the lows, the storm track beneath it will be westerly. And so they're actually not aimed at Indonesia, they're aimed at Tasmania and New Zealand. The primary swell band is aimed away to the east, away from Indonesia. But what you get is this radial energy spreading off that storm track. But what you get from that is a much more discreet swell. It's more of a vector. That doesn't make sense. It has less spectral density, is a good way to put it. There's less diversity in the wave trains moving in. What you'll get is a high period pulse arriving, spreading radially off that primary swell. And it'll just be a fraction of the deep water swell.
So instead of six to eight foot sets, it might only be three to four foot. And because it's only those high period waves that make it to Indonesia, all you're seeing is the sets. In between, it'll be really like calm. And that's where you get these long lulls. They'll be like, you can be out there and in 10, 20 minutes, there's hardly any waves breaking.
And then when the sets come, there might be three to five waves. And it's really, it's beautiful because there's not a lot of movement in the water. But it's that ground swell alone that's arriving. It's not all these interacting wave trains arriving at once, you see.
So that's something to keep in mind. When you look at a wave period band spreading out across the Indian Ocean, you see it's got peak periods of 20 seconds. You go, wow, look at that ground swell. It's gonna be amazing. Let's book a flight. It's kind of like hold your horses because what underpins, what else is it telling you? If you look at the storm system, what's the full story? And you can sort of say that it might not be all it's cracked up to be.
Yeah. You go bit disappointing.
Michael Frampton
To Ulus, there's a hundred people out and there's three waves every 10 minutes. Yeah, something like that. A.
Ben Macartney
And that's how you can really differentiate, I think, is by looking at a storm system and asking yourself, well, is it aimed directly at Indonesia? Is it travelling towards Indonesia or is it slipping away? How long has those winds been blowing for? A really good telltale sign of a major swell event is when you can see that these wind fetches are aimed at Indonesia, but they last so long that the blobs of swell you get on the wave charts, and they're not just purple, but they're purple over a much broader area. When you get those really expansive areas of season swell in the significant heights, like 40 to 50 feet, you know that that's another way of deriving, well, this storm system has been in place for days at a time, the winds are strong to generate seas of that size, season swell of that size over such a vast area, it's gonna be significant. Whereas if you get those much smaller storm systems, where there's a little purple blob in the middle and it's fanning out off it somewhere, then obviously it's not going to be as significant by the time it arrives.
Yeah, I've seen plenty of good examples of that. You know, the swell that hit Cloud Break all those years ago, they call it, you know, the guy made the movie Thundercloud, all the big wave guys were there, they were meant to be running the event, and you had all these Hawaiian guys paddling in on nine, 10 foot boards or whatever into 20 foot perfection, pretty much. That storm system just set up was complex, slow moving, and it set up over the, you know, below the Tasman Sea in New Zealand for many days at a time. And because it was just a slow, low pressure gyre, if you like, there were just multiple lows rotating through that system that was supporting these incredibly strong wind speeds for days at a time. And so what you sort of have is this huge burst of 45 knot winds for 12, 24 hours, and it eases a bit, but you've got this massive sea state in place, and then the next low comes through and just adds to it. And that's what's sometimes referred to in forecasting as the step ladder effect, where you get very large, complex storm systems rotating in a large, low pressure gyre. You can see these in effect when you look at Southern Ocean synoptic charts, like synoptic charts that take in the entire Indian Ocean or the entire Pacific, and you can see these, what some people refer to as the long wave trough, where you might have a super active area of storm activity that manifests as a gyre.
So it's like a big parent system, and within it, there's a multitude of smaller lows rotating through it. And they're the big storm systems to watch out for if you're planning a trip somewhere, if you're looking just to target a swell and go and find some big waves. It's those broad scale systems that last for days at a time and move slowly. They can really, they piggyback on each other. One low will generate 30 -foot seas. The next one that comes across adds to it, et cetera.
So yeah, it's interesting.
Michael Frampton
So if you just look at the charts and you see a swell that's three metres at 18 seconds, it might just be one of those swells where there's only three waves every 10 minutes. So it's pretty important to not just look at the charts on Coastal Watch, but to actually go and look at the paragraph that you've written on the forecast as well.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, absolutely. I guess that's where the written discussion can give you an idea of what's really going on, rather than just looking at the wave chart or graph that will give you a generic height and period. And they're good snapshot indicators. There's no doubt that a virtual buoy of any sort can give you a reasonably good idea of what might happen. But to really, for a decision -making purposes, if you're thinking of jumping on a plane or deciding whether or not to take two big boards or just three short boards, things like that on your trip, I think it's really helpful to drill down into the actual storm system itself and see what's going on. By that, yeah, that means looking at synoptic charts and forecast surface winds and satellite images of surface winds. They're all, I guess that's the stuff I look at on a daily basis just to get a handle on swell potential. You can definitely give yourself an advantage, I think, just by spending a bit more time looking at the origin of a swell.
Michael Frampton
And learning about it. Yeah.
So what about, let's take the example of a local Australian East Coast forecast or system. And sometimes it can be, let's say, a two -meter southerly swell at 15 seconds. And there's these really clean lines coming through, the reef breaks light up. If there's a good bank, you get some good clean waves at a beachy.
And then a couple of weeks later, you get another 15 -second southerly swell at two meters. And it's kind of wobbly and bumpy and the reef breaks aren't really breaking properly, but then the beach breaks kind of light up and you don't need as good of banks to have peakiness.
Yeah. But looking at the graph, the swell looks the same, but can you explain the nuances between?
Yeah.
Ben Macartney
I mean, there's a lot of potential nuances that can make that happen. And a big one is secondary swells. At any given time, there's often more than one swell in the water. And sometimes you end up with two swells that are kind of competing. And what you can see on a wave graph can be misleading because you might see it's two meters at 15 seconds. But what that doesn't show you is that there's a 15 -second ground swell coming in that's two feet. And the primary swell is actually a six foot, so a 1 .5 meter swell that's only eight to nine seconds.
So what you've actually got is a combination of wind swell and ground swell. But on the chart, it looks the same because they both say they're both coming from the south. It's gonna look the same. Whereas in the first instance, if you've just got just a two meter 15 -second ground swell coming in from 180 degrees straight south, then there's no noise. There's none of this sort of additional swell adding wobble into it and adding this sort of bit of chaos into the mix, I guess. It's just a pure ground swell that'll be clean when it arrives.
So yeah, I mean, there's a lot of nuances there in that sense. Even the swell direction can have a big impact. The difference between a deep water south -southwest ground swell that's actually spreading up into the Tasman Sea at 190 degrees, which is a little past south -southwest, they will actually, if it's long period, if it's above 15 seconds or more, they can focus into certain reefs and bays and points and generate really big surf while other beaches remain relatively tame. We tend to see that every winter, at least once or twice, where a sizable long period directional ground swell arrives. By directional, it's kind of spreading up parallel to the coast, but there's still a component of that energy refracting back into the New South Wales coast. With any ground swell, there's that spread and some places will just pick it up and focus it. Usually because of the offshore bathymetry, there'll be a deep gully or a trench or something. One of those spots is Depo Bommie. I know from experience that you see photos of it breaking at 10 to 15 feet on these ground swells, and my local beach will be six foot. Bondi, it'll pick up, picks up, in theory, the maximum amount of south ground swell, but it'll just be five, six foot.
And then other beaches can just be three to four. And it has a lot to do with the local geography and the coastline and how they interact with that deep water energy. I guess to put that into context, you need to think of ground swells in terms of deep water energy, i .e. How far they penetrate below the surface.
So a wave with a period of 20 seconds, it penetrates about 350 metres below the surface. Wow, about a thousand feet.
So it's gonna interact with the sea floor. So far offshore that you can't actually see where it...
So by the time you see the swell, it's already changed because of the sea floor. Whereas a wave period of eight seconds, it penetrates about 50 metres below the sea surface. And so its interaction with the sea floor is much more localised. It won't really react substantially until it hits the beach, almost, before it really begins to feel the bottom. Whereas deep water ground swells will almost react to the continental shelf or reefs, deep water features offshore. And now once they react to those, what are they doing? They're slowing, they're wrapping, they're refracting and doing all sorts of things. They're being modified. And that's where you get a lot of misconceptions. I know from my own experience over the years, seeing a lot of local surfers see a big south ground swell coming in because it's already turned to face the beach much further offshore. It looks like an easterly swell. And a lot of people will say that. They'll say, it's meant to be a south ground swell. This is coming in straight out of the east. And so they dash off down south to Maroobra because Maroobra is the place to be when it's an easterly swell. And it's not even getting in there properly. It's kind of almost flat down the south end and four foot up the north end or something. And they go, they scratch their heads and go. I've seen that happen. I've had guys come to me and go, we thought it was an easterly swell but Maroobra is not getting it. And it's like, that's a straight south ground swell at 17 seconds or something. That's what it does. And you can have these similar effects at your own local area. You might see a particular swell arriving at a particular period and direction. And it can actually, it can be confounding. You can go, wow, it's not really getting in here or it's really focusing in this other spot. I've seen it happen out the front here at Av where deep water south east ground swells and stuff seem to focus on that reef that's right out off the southern cliff. I think one of the boys has paddled out there and surfed at once. Have you heard? Everex. Is that what they call it?
Yeah. Yeah. And I've seen like in some of these ground swells, particular swells, that reef just focusing these sets. And it's like, there's no one surfing it. But you can see it's gotta be like six foot plus. And yet on the beach, there's hardly any sets coming in. And it's like four foot or something. And you go, what's going on there? And it's just the bathymetry in action in a particular swell. And you can get similar effects everywhere where swell react to certain parts of the sea floor given at a particular, on this continuum of period and direction, which is complex. Even slight shifts in the direction can change the effect.
And then there's the tide, things like that compounds what the local effects you have. If you get unusually big tides, suddenly like we saw, I think it was late last year or earlier this year with the super moon and the huge tides that we had were about as extreme as they get. On the extreme low tides like that, suddenly you can have a bathymetric feature offshore that's suddenly much shallower than it usually is. And you've suddenly got a ground swell reacting to it, whereas normally it passes over the top of it. And there's all this sort of stuff that can happen with swells, I guess. And that's where just your local observations can really pay off, just knowing years and years of observing your own local breaks and knowing how they react in --- exactly.
Michael Frampton
In combination with looking at charts as well, though. Yeah.
Ben Macartney
So that's it, that's how you learn, is you know if you can analyse the forecast swell and look at the data that's showing. On the real wave buoys offshore, they actually give you real -time indications of deep water swell and period. Compare that to a virtual buoy run. And yeah, you've got to be able to --- I mean, some people write that down as a guy. I used to.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Ben Macartney
Yeah. Yeah, I've heard of a few guys just year off, you know, to accumulate this knowledge year after year so they know what to expect. And they've got precedence.
Michael Frampton
Because there can be a big difference between a 181 degree swell at 15 seconds at two metres and then 184 degrees of a swell that has a period one second less. Yeah. It might look really similar, but if you start looking at the details and you go, no, that's actually quite a different swell because last time we had a swell like that, I went around the corner and thinking that there would be waves at the beach around the corner, but there wasn't.
So now I know just to stay here because that swell is getting in here. I know from experience, there's no point driving 10 minutes up the road because that angle and that period comes into that beach at a kind of weird. And that's because of, you know, the nuances in the direction, the period, and the bathymetry as well.
Ben Macartney
For sure. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
I went through it when I was, when I started surfing, there was no surf forecasting things. It was, I used to take a photo of the conditions, especially if it was good at a break, and then I would cut the ISABAR map out of the paper and stick it on the back.
Yeah. And then, you know, I started journaling like Yeah, I used to learn which beach to go to based on the map and the marine forecast.
Ben Macartney
That. And that's a great way to do it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Ben Macartney
Yeah. That's a clever way to do it, I think. And, you know, in the pre -digital age, when before the internet was just, all you had was the weather charts and the paper and --- Yep, yeah.
Michael Frampton
And the marine forecast on - Yeah, So there's those nuances about bathymetry and changes in swell direction that affect waves at your local break.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, that was it. That was about it. But yeah, it's certainly changed since then.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
But there's what we talked about before was the secondary swells as well.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, that's right. And they play a big factor, I think. Easy to overlook when you're looking at a primary swell on a chart and you're focused on the deep water ground swell. Often what you don't see is some short period swell that's in the mix, or even one or two of them. You might have some residual northeast wind swell from the day before, and then a southerly change comes through before the arrival of the ground swell, and that weeps up a small south -southeast wind swell or something. And suddenly you've got all this noise mixed in with the ground swell, and it can really, you know, take the shine off these events. Or perhaps sometimes it might not matter, and other times you go, this isn't what I was thinking, even though the next day on the arrival of the ground swell, the winds are offshore and everything looks like it should click into place. You've got these additional wave trains that can throw a curveball into the mix.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
I've been caught out in the past where you see one of these clean swells coming, and you go to a point break or a reef break, and it's all funky and wobbly and weird because of the secondary swell interacting. But then you go to a beach break, which might not have banks per se, but because the secondary swell is interacting with the other swell in such a way, there's all these A -frames up and down the beach.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, it can be really favorable for some spots rather than others. You know, for me, it brings up the characteristics of different swells and how I know at Bondi, where I grew up surfing, short -period swells can just be, you know, just be fantastic. You get these really particularly large short -period swells, like a three -meter swell that's only eight seconds, and it turns into a really sort of peaky fun park with all these different lefts and rights. And I've seen it change, like, in the space of one day to the next, where the period jumps up to 10 seconds the next day, and it turns into what it's always been and always will be, which is mostly a closeout. Yep. And you hear guys say, wow, the banks have gone, you know, but it's kind of, the sand's still there, it's just the swell characteristics have changed and it's interacting with the bathymetry, with the sandbanks, differently.
You know, these waves will, an increase in period will increase the wavelength, so you have longer swell that's feeling the bottom in deeper water and reacting to the whole sandbar rather than the gutters and rips. Things like that.
So yeah, it's interesting.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess that's kind of exaggerated in the corner of a beach where there's a bit of a headland, you see the, they call it wedging, when the first wave of the set refracts off the rock or whatever and hits the second wave of the set and makes that wave peel and it's more powerful. Yeah. That's a really obvious way to look at what we're talking about. But Tom Carroll said something in a previous interview, is that getting better at surfing has got a lot to do with really paying attention to the details.
Yeah. And that's one thing that helped my surfing a lot. And so I really started looking at, okay, I'd look on the chart and go, okay, there's a primary swell here, but there's there's a primary southerly swell, but there's a secondary nor 'easterly swell. And so when I'm surfing, I'm looking out where is that nor 'easterly swell. I'm not just trying to get in rhythm with the bigger sets. I wanna know, I wanna get in rhythm with both of those swells and really look. I found it really helpful to look at the charts and at the period and the direction and size of that secondary swell. And it just, when you have a look, and even tertiary swells as well.
So when you have a look at the forecast and the charts, when you go surfing, you've got an idea of what to look at so you can learn to see these other waves in the water when you know what you're looking for. Absolutely. This is something else I found important, another sort of correlation between looking at, having this obsession with surf forecasting.
Ben Macartney
And it makes things really, I think that's where we're really lucky on the East Coast. We have this incredible diversity in different swells in terms of, on the swell spectrum of, direction, period and height, we get this incredible variety. We really do. Whereas a lot of the big West -facing coasts around the world, it's kind of a more of a staple, mostly long period swells out of the Southwest or West -Southwest, varying degrees from there. But I mean, the West Coast a few years ago got a big Northwest cyclone swell. And that was the first one that apparently that a lot of the locals had ever seen in like 30 years. Whereas for us here, we get this incredible diversity and yeah, it makes life really interesting. I've had similar surfs like that where you get these two swells interacting and they have incredible effects when on a beach break somewhere, when they both combine. It's kind of rare, but when you see it happen, they're really unique.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's rare to see it really like to play to place up, but at the same time, it's always in play.
Yeah, it is. As well. And I find that's the difference between, you see the surfers, they go out and they just seem to catch all of the good waves. And you're like, you catch a wave and it's just fat and it doesn't peel.
And then they paddle out again and they catch the other one. I think it's the difference is they're really aware of some of the details of how other swells, not just secondary and tertiary swells, but the way the wind's interacting with the surface of the water.
Ben Macartney
Which waves are bouncing off a rock and wedging. Refractions, exactly. Which ones aren't.
Yeah, that's the power of observation, I guess. And when you apply that power of observation in the context of knowing about what swells are in the water, it can give you a big jump.
Michael Frampton
What about, so we've got all these nuances locally about how certain swells can seem somewhat similar on the chart, but actually on the day, very different, depending on slight differences in period, angle, and of course the effect of other swells. But there's something similar going on with winds as well. I find as well.
Like there's a big difference between a nor -easterly and a nor -east -easterly, for example. Because the winds can kind of just, they just seem to swirl around different bays. And can you end up with pockets of almost offshore or light variables and corners and places.
Ben Macartney
As well. That's why a straight easterly or anything from an easterly, the easterly quadrant, is just a surf wrecker for just about everywhere because it can't interact so much with any headlands or valleys or geography, if you like. It's just gonna come straight into every exposed bit of beach and just blow on shore. Whereas the effects of the coastal geography on different winds is phenomenal. And it's a beautiful thing. There's a lot of places. I know my local Tamarama, when the winds are nor -noreast, it's virtually offshore in there. You've got this huge headland that sticks out and the wind curls around it and comes down in through Mackenzie's and Tamarama and it's cross offshore a lot of the time. Or just cross shore. And it's just like a little miracle of nature.
Yeah. And there's other really good examples around here. And I guess that stuff, I don't, it's not stuff that I incorporate into daily forecasts because it's such a granular thing in terms of every bit of coastline has its own idiosyncrasies in that regard. I've seen, one of the most unique ones I've seen is at Whale Beach, where it can be blowing west -southwest, and the wind curls around on shore.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I've seen that.
Ben Macartney
It's unbelievable. Like in theory you're going, wow, this is like perfect conditions.
Like the winds are offshore at a certain speed. And yet when these sets come in, there's this weird rippling on shore effect going on. And a guy explained it to me recently as down drafts coming off that steep valley, the winds, as it comes over the top of a steep valley, it's, you know, it's coming down and curling back in. There was a term for it that alludes me now, but it's not something I study on a day -to -day basis, those local wind effects. But when you observe them, it can be staggering.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's good to take note. And on the Coastal Watch website, you guys have the live wind feed.
Ben Macartney
We do.
Michael Frampton
From the airport, is it?
Ben Macartney
Yeah, from automated weather stations, from the Bureau of Meteorology. They have, you know, usually update every half an hour or even sooner.
So.
Michael Frampton
They're worth looking at, because the wind can be forecast as a nor -east -easterly, but it might actually be a nor -nor -easterly in reality. And sometimes it's hard to tell from, even if you live at the beach, whether what's going on up the road. But if you keep an eye on those live feeds, you get more of an idea of what the wind's doing in real time compared to what the forecast.
Ben Macartney
Is. Absolutely. The forecast models, especially GFS, which drives a lot of the forecast data that you look at, that's a global forecast system that is freely available from the US Navy, from NOAA.
You know, it's not particularly granular. It's picking up gradient winds and isn't factoring in the local effects of the coastline and smaller weather systems necessarily. And that's where on Coastal Watch, we've got APS2 model running, which is from the BOM for the first 72 hours on our forecast winds. And it does factor in a lot of the local land effects.
So you'll see it will pick up early morning offshores before a southerly kicks in, things like that. But yeah, it's always interesting. I keep an eye on the live winds religiously. Because winds, they don't obviously follow the forecast modelling precisely. You can have onshore. I saw it, we saw it on over the weekend where the onshore East North East flow starts to, it'll just die out for a few hours. Suddenly you get this window, like when we paddled out at ABB the other day, actually, and the winds suddenly drop off to five to 15 knots for about an hour or two. And you've got this short window. It's like a little miracle where the gradient has just slackened over the region temporarily, where you can get some really fun semi -clean waves before the wind comes back up.
Yeah, and that happens a lot, when you watch these weather systems unfold and you have a gradient wind in place where it's just blowing out the surf at 15 to 20 knots all day. If you keep an eye out, there are these windows that'll appear where the stability of the gradient fluctuates and you suddenly have a drop in local winds. I guess that's one reason why so many hardcore surfers don't even worry so much about forecasts. They just go, just check it. Just check it every day. Just watching it.
Michael Frampton
That's good. If you have the time to have that luxury, that's awesome. That's right. What's the difference between a wind swell and a ground swell? Is it a line in the sand?
Yeah.
Ben Macartney
Well, it's a loose line in the sand and it really comes down to wave period. And wind swells are locally generated, usually within close range of the coast. The wind speeds usually aren't as strong. And so the swell's more disorganised and not necessarily as big. You can get massive wind swells, of course. But yeah, the real differentiator is period. And anything that's below 10 seconds is pretty much regarded as wind swell. And anything above that, more above 12 seconds, you can talk about as ground swell. I think in my forecasting notes, I usually make reference to mid -period swells as the sort of in -between. Because I think there is an in -between, where there is some deep water energy present, but it's not particularly strong.
So I just call it mid -period energy. And that generally means anything from nine to 12 seconds, I guess, that bandwidth. There's some substance there, but it's, yeah. It's the magic number, wave period, absolutely.
Michael Frampton
What about, you know, sometimes, I don't know whether this is just because our attention is drawn to the fact that it is raining, but sometimes when it starts raining, the waves kind of stop.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, I've noticed that as well. I've noticed. Can you explain that? I can't necessarily explain that, no, I don't. I haven't thought of a, Well, what happens in big, when you get a lot of low pressure, then it actually takes pressure off the sea surface and the sea surface will rise.
Michael Frampton
You know. I mean, does atmospheric pressure affect?
Ben Macartney
That's where you get storm surges. So when we have big East Coast lows, I don't know if you ever noticed this effect, but the sea level will be higher simply because if we have low pressure over us, then the pressure exerted on the sea surface is lower and therefore it allows the ocean to sort of expand in that area, swells.
Yeah, and I've seen that effect with big East Coast lows on plenty of occasions where I've gone down to jump off the rocks and it's like a mid tide or a low tide and it's like a massive high tide and you go, what is going on here? I can't even jump off the rocks in my usual spot and guys are jumping off in completely different locations. That makes.
Michael Frampton
Sense now. Yeah. Because I've always kind of maybe thought that especially in terms of height, that tide prediction is never really quite right. But now if I think about it and take into account atmospheric pressure, that could explain that discrepancy.
Ben Macartney
It does, big time. Because I guess day in, day out, we don't see a lot of variation from around 1000 to 1030 HPA. And that difference won't, I don't think it'll have a real noticeable effect on the sea surface. But once it really starts to drop, if you've got low pressure over the coast and it's well below 1000 somewhere, then you can see that effect can be quite pronounced. Guy from South Australia told me once that there are, down there are winter breaks and summer breaks. That these places that break only in winter and others that break only in summer simply because of that pressure difference that you have between winter and summer.
Michael Frampton
That just due to the height of the water? Yeah.
Ben Macartney
Yeah. With the onset of big frontal systems and low pressure, you get this, yeah, totally different characteristics.
Michael Frampton
So atmospheric pressure doesn't really affect the swell. It's more the sea level.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, I mean directly over the coast, over the actual place where you're surfing, the atmospheric pressure doesn't. Yeah, that's right. But it can definitely have an impact on sea level where you get extremes in pressure.
Yeah, I've never thought too much about the converse of that and whether extreme high pressure can actually keep the water level down. Yeah, should look into that. Because I've, I guess because I've always observed it during East Coast lows, it's something I became aware of a long time ago and read about since. But the converse should in theory be true to a degree.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Changes in atmospheric pressure would certainly make the extremes a little bit off what's predicted as well. Yeah. It would suppress or allow more movement. Therefore the timings could be slightly different.
Ben Macartney
And perhaps, you know, that's just another little factor that can make one day different from another when in theory they should look the same. All those little factors all add up together to produce a unique day.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, especially at some certain reef breaks and slabs where the actual water level on the reef is so important. And it's, there's low tides and there's low tides, right?
So we've really got to consider how much water is on the reef, not just whether it's a low spring tide or a low neap tide. There's much more to Although tides is probably a whole nother, it's a whole nother discussion, tides.
Ben Macartney
It. Yeah, there can be, I think.
Michael Frampton
I something interesting you mentioned last time we spoke was that looking at a two -dimensional map can be deceiving because the earth is three -dimensional and you referenced great circles.
Ben Macartney
Think it is. I think it is. But.
Michael Frampton
Could you summarize those maybe?
Ben Macartney
Yeah, I guess if you grab a sphere, like a ball that you might sit on at work instead of a chair and if you try and draw a straight line on it, you kind of can't, it's always going to be curved. Any line drawn on a sphere will have a curvature. And I guess that's what we take for granted when we look at the swell maps is that over long distances, swell will follow the curvature of the earth. And these paths, these curves along the earth are known as great circle paths. And if you Google it, you'll come up with a lot of stuff about aeronautics and aerial navigation because pilots use them to navigate across continents, et cetera. They'll fly across these great circle paths, but swell travels along great circle paths. Effectively, it's traveling in a straight line, but it's following the curvature of the earth to a distant location. These great circles really only come into effect, I think, when swells are traveling more than 1 ,000 nautical miles. But it has quite incredible implications. And these are sort of the sort of things I only became aware of years after getting right into swell forecasting. The fact that a giant storm system below the Great Australian Bight that's generating even west -north -west winds can actually give us a ground swell here along the East Coast. And it's really counterintuitive when you look at a weather chart. And I used to tell people, once I discovered all this stuff, I'd tell people, I'd say, we're getting a ground swell. Where's it coming from? It's coming from below South Australia. They'd look at me like I'm an idiot. And go, what are you talking about? You're not making any sense. And in the forecast notes, I'm saying there's a huge westerly swell below Tasmania and South Australia is actually gonna give us a south ground swell. And how does that work?
Well, if you open up Google Earth and you use the draw function, you can draw a line from anywhere along the East Coast down into the Southern Ocean. And you'll start to see as you get down into polar latitudes, how that line curves along the Earth's surface. It's quite a nice effect. And if you scroll out from the screen and so you're looking at the entire sort of ocean base and the Tasman and even the broader, the Great Southern Ocean, you can really see these effects in play when you mess around with the line function on Google Earth. It's a really useful way to analyse swell windows, to look at what land masses might be acting as, shadowing or blocking certain swells.
So you can see the limits of our swell window South of Tasmania. But it's staggering like some swells will, if they're big enough, even though the primary direction of that giant swell somewhere over the Indian Ocean or below Australia might not be along a great circle path, the refracted energy will be.
So the sideband energy radiating out from that swell source can travel along a great circle path to our coastline. And although it will arrive at very small heights, often just a fraction of a, even just a fraction of a foot sometimes.
So, you know, half a foot, a half a foot swell at 20 seconds, stuff like that. And yet it's originated thousands and thousands of nautical miles away. I guess you call these, often in forecasting, I think of them as theoretical swells because the wave modelling is picking it up and it's showing on all the charts. It actually, you can see the wave period band moving up into the Tasman Sea, but it's so small that it won't have a palpable effect on surfing conditions. It will be superseded by a different swell that's generated much closer to the coast. But yeah, they are fascinating. And they have real, really palpable effects for places like Indonesia and even, you know, the West Coast of America and Hawaii, obviously, but anywhere where the swell travels, where long period swells can travel for thousands of nautical miles, it has an impact, yeah. A good example is Indonesia. In theory, you can have ground swells generated over the South Atlantic arrive in Indonesia.
So if you get westerly winds over the South Atlantic, if the swell's big enough, it'll travel some over 6 ,000 nautical miles to arrive in Indonesia. And that'll be over seven days later. It's, I tracked one last year and it arrived at two feet at 20 seconds or something.
Yeah. They can come from a long way away. And yeah, again, that's a beautiful thing about the East Coast. We can, every once in a while, we get these really remote South, Southeast ground swells from not just below New Zealand, but well, Southeast of New Zealand. And these really remote corners of our swell window that every once in a while, you'll get a big fetch set up down there and they generate fantastic waves for the East Coast, like a southeasterly direction with a long period can just be fantastic. And I've seen, you don't see many of those, but it's just another example of the variation we can get.
You know, years ago, I think Mike Stewart, the body boarder, he chased a swell from New Zealand to Tahiti and then onto America and then eventually Alaska. And that's how far these things will travel.
Michael Frampton
Wow. So you can actually beat it on a plane.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, you can beat them on a plane. Yeah, if your flights are scheduled nice and tightly, yeah, you can get the jump on these swells and be there just in time to surf a spot the next day. And, you know, that was done in the nineties, Mike Stewart and I can't remember who else it was. Maybe it was just him. And more recently, I think some other guys gave it a go and chased a swell across the Pacific basin. And, but I think the Pacific ocean is really the only one where you can feasibly do that. Perhaps you could do it in the Atlantic, but it's known as, it's been proved possible that a polar swell in the Southern hemisphere can be surfed in Alaska. And that's vast distance. I haven't measured it. That's the, you know, it's a pole to pole almost. And that it's testament to the incredible efficiency with which deep water ground swells will traverse deep water. They move with virtually no friction. They move, they're unimpeded until they reach a landmass. And the thing that really makes them dissipate as they travel is the attenuation of the swell, is the actual spreading process. If you think about the swell at its origin, a swell line at its origin, as it moves up, I read this the other day and it's a fascinating idea. If you think about, just to illustrate the effects of swell spreading and the effects of the globe on the swell, if you imagine instead of the South pole, there was a big storm there. It was just a massive low pressure system where the South pole is. And it was a huge low just generating giant swell. And that swell was just radiating out from that point zero. At the South pole, every direction you look, it's North.
So all the swell is traveling North along every longitudinal band. But those longitudinal bands diverge from the point you leave point zero.
So they're diverging. And it follows that the swell diverges as it approaches the equator.
So it would It thins, it's thinning.
Michael Frampton
Thin out. And then potentially if it was unaffected, theoretically, once it had passed the equator, would it then slowly compress and get bigger again? That's.
Ben Macartney
An interesting, I haven't actually thought it through that far. I haven't, but that is a fascinating idea. If you think about the, perhaps it would compress. If you approach the North pole, they're actually the lines of longitude are compressing. Would the swell then regather into a smaller and smaller area? It makes sense that it would in a way.
Michael Frampton
If it was unaffected by.
Ben Macartney
But you'd think perhaps you'd need some assistance from some bathymetric assistance in a way. I don't know. It's a really complicated idea. But yeah, I'm probably beyond my level of knowledge for sure. But we do see those effects in Indonesia, those incredibly long swell lines that arrive along the reefs and beaches there that just stretch as far as the eye can see, basically. The wavelengths are incredibly long and that's sort of a by -product of this thinning effect of the swell. Is the attenuation of the swell.
Michael Frampton
Fascinating. Yeah, it is. A lot to it.
So let's summarize a little bit maybe. We talked about the nuances of secondary swells, tertiary swells, bathymetry, atmospheric pressure. There's a lot going on with scoring waves at both your local and surrounding beaches as well as surf trips.
So I just would urge from personal experience and I would just urge people just to keep an eye on not just the charts, not just the swell charts but look at the secondary swells or tertiary swells and not just at the start of the day but the end of the day as well. Yeah.
So just go, what did the forecast look like and how were the waves? And if your local beach really lights up maybe even jot down some of the details as well as looking at the winds as well. You mentioned the actual buoys.
Yeah, buoys.
Ben Macartney
The actual wave.
Michael Frampton
You guys list that on Coastal Watch. That's there on Coastal Watch. All the wind charts, the live winds, the wind predictions are all there as well as your take on, you know, what's the word?
Like taking all of this theory into something practical because like we said, you can have a swell that looks good but it might just be a bunch of lulls.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, that's exactly.
Michael Frampton
Right. Make sure you look at the paragraphs that writes when he breaks down what the maps are showing as well. Is there anything else that I've missed that people might be?
Ben Macartney
There could well be. I mean, I can usually just talk on and on about the various aspects of wave propagation and, you know, storm systems and all the nuances. But I don't know, I guess I think it can be a powerful thing, as you said, to make observations in your own right of swells and then reflect on what the forecast data was telling you and what swells were in the water, what the conditions were like and having a knowledge base can really allow you just to manage your expectations in a way about what to expect rather than, you know, just seeing, you know, high periods at three metres and going, come on, I'm going to take a week off and we're going to go down the coast and find perfection. Just to know that it's not necessarily until all is going to be cracked up to be.
I mean, I guess for me, you know, with surfing, a big part of it is just that, just managing expectations. And because over the years, I've seen so many potential amazing storm systems and when it does arrive, you kind of go, of course, there's this secondary swell or the wind hasn't been offshore long enough and there's still all this chop left over from yesterday or even just the sandbanks are really straight. And there's so many factors that come into play in that sense. I think, you know, it's... I think there's two important things for me. One is keep trying, keep getting out there, drive down the coast, drive up to the next beach around the corner and keep looking because even if you think, it's not going to be that good or probably, it can be, the more you look, the more you'll score. I think the more you go and put yourself out there and get out of your comfort zone, I think that's one rule to follow.
Michael Frampton
And just quietly, we can look on the cams.
Ben Macartney
That's right. We can look on the cams. And.
Michael Frampton
You know, if it is pumping somewhere, Coastal Watch users will put photos up as well. So we can get an idea of what's happening around our area and down the coast, just from looking at the cameras and user photos as well.
Ben Macartney
Yeah, there's plenty of that. There's no shortage of resources there. One of the final things I'd say is that there's so much potential data and sources of information to look at. I think it's just important to develop your own methodology and stick to it. In other words, you know, I mean, ideally Coastal Watch has all those tools on offer, whether it's the wave tracker where you can monitor wave period against swell and the different wave trains, as well as the detailed stuff I write. There's a lot there, but whatever it is that you use to forecast is to, I don't know, is to sort of stick with it. And that way you're constantly referencing the same data sets. I think that can be quite handy.
Something I've stuck to over the years, and I do look at a lot of different things, but I have a sequence where I compare them to each other and gives me an underlying impression of what's going on. But yeah, so I think it's very useful to cross -reference, but if you do it in a rigorous way, it can really give you a lot more confidence in what it's telling you.
Michael Frampton
Just before you go, what's your favourite surfboard at the moment?
Ben Macartney
I guess it's Pyzel. Pyzel. It's a bastard.
Yeah, that's the name of the board. I'm not calling it a bastard. But yeah, that's probably my favourite one that I've had for a while now.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Do you have a favourite surfer?
Ben Macartney
I think really Owen Wright. I know I'm saying that in light of his victory, his most recent victory on the Gold Coast, but he's been a big number one favourite of mine for a long time and been hanging out for his comeback. Just constantly digging around for news on how his recovery's been going. And so for me, that was just phenomenal to see him win. I really enjoy watching surfers like that who can draw such deep top to bottom turns without any wobbles or secondary turns. And it's just clean top to bottom surfing in such a critical part of the wave. And I guess I'm a bit old school in that sense.
So I really just like that. But obviously, Owen's got a pretty good bag of tricks as well, so yeah.
Michael Frampton
All right, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, cheers.
Ben Macartney
Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me. Awesome.
Michael Frampton
Thank you. All right, If you're listening to this before the 15th of April and you live in Victoria, there is a surf forecasting workshop with McCartney and Nick Carroll.
Michael Frampton
Awesome.
Michael Frampton
That's happening on Saturday, the 15th of April, 2017, between three and five p .m. At the Torquay Surf Life Saving Club. And you can just go onto Coastal Watch to get tickets. I will post a direct link to the event in both the show notes at surfmastery .com, episode 21, the show notes for this episode. It will be one of the more recent posts on the Surf Mastery Facebook page as well. I have links to some tutorials and articles on surf forecasting in the show notes as well. Thanks for tuning in to the Surf Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews.
Michael Frampton
Subscribe.
Michael Frampton
Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us time, keep surfing.
020: MICHAEL GERVAIS - High Performance Psychologist
Mar 21, 2017
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Surfing, Self-Mastery, and the Art of Presence with Dr. Michael Gervais
What if surfing could teach you not just how to ride waves but how to master your mind and unlock a life of focus, presence, and resilience?
In this episode, high-performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais reveals how surfing serves as the ultimate "laboratory" for mastering focus, awareness, and emotional resilience. Whether you're chasing bigger waves or a more balanced life, discover how the lessons learned in the lineup translate into personal growth and fulfillment.
Learn why mindfulness is a powerful tool for improving both your surfing and your life.
Discover the essential "fundamental decision" that elite athletes make to orient their lives toward mastery.
Explore how music, breathing, and awareness can transform your pre-surf routine into a mindset game-changer.
Listen to this episode to learn how to turn every surf session into a masterclass in mental focus, personal growth, and life mastery.
Michael talks about how your mind affects your surfing, as well as surfing's effect on our minds.
Mindfulness, flow state, being present, living in the now, awareness, in the zone, in the pocket, focus on 'now', meditation, mind-set, surfing philosophy. It's all in here, and it's all relative to surfing.
Notable Quotes
"Surfing is the laboratory to figure out how you respond to the unpredictable."
"Your craft—surfing, woodworking, anything—isn’t just something you do; it’s a way to reveal and refine who you are."
"The goal is not to have no thoughts but to be connected to the one thing that matters in this moment."
"Until you make a fundamental decision about who you are and how you’re going to experience life, you’ll always be at the mercy of your environment."
"If you value your thoughts, you can choose what to do with them. The more you fight them, the harder it becomes."
Michael Gervais shared how he got into high performance sports psychology through his experience as a competitive surfer in his youth.
They discussed the contrast between free surfing and competitive surfing, and how the fear of judgment can create barriers to performance.
Gervais explained the difference between the mind and the brain, and how the mind can shape the brain and vice versa.
They talked about the importance of being present and focused in the moment, and how mindfulness practices can help train the mind.
Gervais emphasized the need to make a fundamental decision about how one wants to experience life and what to set life efforts towards.
They discussed the surfer's relationship to surfing and the importance of not letting surfing control one's life, but rather being in control of when and how to surf.
Gervais shared his perspective on the commonalities among elite athletes, including their ability to be fully present and their fundamental orientation towards mastery.
They explored the role of music in pre-performance preparation and how it can support an ideal mindset.
Gervais provided advice for listeners who want to get better at surfing, including investing in the quality of one's mind, making fundamental decisions, and enhancing the ability to be present through practices like mindfulness.
Outline
Dr. Michael Gervais's Background
Dr. Michael Gervais is a high-performance sports psychologist with a PhD in sports psychology.
They work with elite athletes, including professional surfers, and host the Finding Mastery Podcast.
Gervais brings a unique perspective to sports psychology as both a surfer and someone who works with elite-level surfers.
Journey into Sports Psychology
Gervais's journey into high-performance sports psychology began with their own experiences as a young surfer.
They excelled in free surfing but struggled in competitions.
A pivotal moment occurred when they were 15 during a competition when an older surfer advised them to stop thinking about what could go wrong.
This led Gervais to start focusing on what could go well, marking their first introduction to applied sports psychology.
This experience sparked their interest in understanding the mind's role in performance, eventually leading them to pursue formal education in psychology and performance psychology.
Understanding the Brain and Mind
The brain is the physical organ - three pounds of tissue in the skull with complex structures, chemicals, and functions that are not yet fully understood.
The mind is more abstract and not directly observable, but it can be influenced and trained.
Gervais believes the mind and brain are intimately connected but separate entities, with the mind capable of shaping the brain and vice versa.
They describe the mind as the 'rider of the horse,' with the body and brain being the horse.
The mind determines how individuals experience life, rather than merely reacting to experiences.
Mindfulness Practice
Mindfulness is a practice of focusing intensely on the present moment, often through techniques like breath awareness.
The goal of mindfulness is not to have no thoughts, but to be connected to one thing with great intensity.
Awareness is the first step in mindfulness, followed by tools and training to bring focus back to the present moment.
Gervais recommends starting with short sessions (1-2 minutes) and gradually increasing to 20 minutes for optimal results.
They emphasize the importance of intensity in practice, but caution against confusing intensity with judgment.
Importance of Presence
Being present is crucial for peak performance in surfing and other activities.
Common barriers to presence include internal dialogues about not being good enough, perceived dangers, and fatigue.
External factors like real danger or others' opinions can also interfere with presence.
Gervais suggests that the path to mastery involves dedicating time to practice while maintaining control over when and how one engages in the activity.
Surfing as a Laboratory for Growth
Gervais emphasizes that surfing should be viewed as a 'laboratory' for personal growth and self-understanding, rather than just a sport or hobby.
They caution against allowing surfing to control one's life, advocating for a balance where the surfer chooses when and how to surf.
The goal is to use surfing as a means to reveal and refine one's true self, rather than letting it define one's entire identity.
Common Traits Among Elite Athletes
Elite athletes across different disciplines share many similarities, regardless of gender.
They have become 'artistic' in their craft, with their tools feeling like extensions of themselves.
They possess great awareness of their inner experience and can manipulate their mind and craft in various environments.
Their drive for mastery is typically stronger than their desire for external recognition or rewards.
Recommendations for Personal Development
Invest in the quality of your mind through awareness and skills to guide it.
Make fundamental decisions about who you are and how you want to experience life.
Enhance your ability to be present through practices like mindfulness and breathing work.
Surround yourself with bright, knowledgeable people and be open to learning and looking 'stupid.'
Impact of Music on Performance
Music can significantly impact mood and performance.
The choice of music should support an individual's ideal mindset for their activity.
The type of music that works best is highly individual and should be chosen based on how it enhances one's desired state of mind.
Transcription
Relentless mental toughness to be here right now.
Welcome We interview the and the people behind them to education and inspiration to Surfing better.
To the Surfing Mastery Podcast. World's best surfers provide you with.
And so it's the craft that allows us to master the self.
Michael Frampton
My guest for this episode is Dr. Michael Gervais. Michael is a surfer from California and his PhD is in sports psychology. Michael is a high performance sports psychologist. He works with a lot of elite athletes including some of the Surfing on tour. Michael has his own podcast called the Finding Mastery Podcast. And he has actually interviewed Ian Walsh and Kai Lenny which if you haven't listened to those interviews definitely go and check them out. In fact all of his interviews are amazing. His podcast is one of the better podcasts out there at the moment. Michael is both a Surfing and works with elite level surfers so I think he brings a great to that sports psychology realm.
Michael Frampton
Perspective for surfers.
Michael Frampton
Michael goes into what the mind is and obviously how it relates to Surfing and performance. But what else was really awesome that we covered in this interview was the surfer's relationship to surfing.
Michael Frampton
It's when Surfing.
Michael Frampton
A topic that's maybe not discussed enough because I think a lot of, as surfers we can often fall into the trap of is sort of ruling us rather than, or when Surfing is leading the surfer rather than the surfer choosing when and how to surf. So we go into some detail about that which I think is fascinating. I'll chime in at the end of this one and give my thoughts on the interview as well. Without further ado, Michael Gervais.
Michael Frampton
Can you tell me Michael how you got into high performance sports psychology?
Michael Gervais
Yeah sure, I guess the first part of that phrase doesn't come for a long time. It's like the high performance stuff doesn't really begin to be understood until man it feels like, I don't know, 15, 20 years in to understanding what comes before high performance which is just performance.
So the longer story to kind of give full context is that I grew up in Southern Los Angeles and well, I spent most of my young life here in Southern California and I surfed a lot and the Surfing was the thing that I did most, more than almost anything else. And I was like a good little surfer in high school for free Surfing and then as soon as it got time for competition, I just couldn't do it.
Like I didn't have the right mindset or framework and I just was like significantly less skilled as soon as the competition got sorted out or started. And so what I came to understand was, and this happened from a, I was in the middle of a heat, I was 15 Surfing in the men's division and this older guy paddles by me, older meaning he was probably like 35 years old or something like that, 30 years old or something and he paddles by and he says, hey Gervais, I Surfing with you every day, I watch what you're doing, you gotta stop thinking about what could go wrong. And like a good competitor, he just paddled off and he left me with that little nugget but didn't tell me what to do, didn't tell me if I'm not supposed to think about what's going wrong, he didn't give me any advice or suggestions on what to do.
So I sat there like a little grom and just said, well, okay, well let me start thinking about what could go well. And that was my first real introduction to applied sports psychology. And I had no idea that there was such a thing as a field or discipline or profession. And so I just started figuring out that I was, my mind was better suited when I was focusing on what could go well as opposed to all the thoughts that were getting in the way of what could, what, yeah, no, let me say that more succinctly. I'm better when I'm focusing on what could go well rather than what could go wrong.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so the contrast that you felt between free Surfing and competition surfing, I'm wondering, did you feel a similar contrast between a surf that you would have with a few friends at your local break and then a Surfing you might have, you know, at a place like Rincon or Trestles where there's lots of better surfers and people on the beach watching? Did you feel a similar contrast?
Michael Gervais
No, it was different. It's like that was fun. That part, I liked that. I liked going into new territory and figuring it out. And I enjoyed that. Because I didn't think there was no formal evaluation. And I really didn't care what somebody was thinking if they were in the water. I cared about the people on the beach. I don't know why. It's like that's something that, it was a gift my parents gave me that didn't end up working very well. And, you know, so it was more that evaluation from the beach. God bless it.
Like, it took me way too long to figure that out and to find a sense of freedom from being able to stop giving a shit what people think of me and at the same time still love them. And that tension and that separation between the two I think has been a lifelong challenge. And it's like there's such freedom on the other side of it. At least there was for me. Because I felt like a tortured little soul as a young grom as well as a young adult.
Michael Frampton
So is it that fear of judgment that causes those barriers? Well.
Michael Gervais
For me it was. And for sure the science would support that. Is that I was so critical and hard on myself that if you think about in a Zen tradition my cup was already full.
And then as soon as I would just begin to think about other people cutting and carving and critiquing me, it just was like spilling over. So it really is that image of being able to empty my cup and know what that means and how to do it was this life journey that I tried to sort out from a formal education standpoint. And that helped. But it's really, that helped, and I don't want to downgrade that in any way, it helped to give me an understanding of what all the great scientists, all the great theorists, all the great students from a very learned and rigid perspective have contributed to the field of psychology and performance psychology.
And then that gave me the platform to go experiment even deeper with myself and putting myself in very rugged and hostile environments to see if I can be present and stop caring really, to sort out like in those moments when it's really heavy, whatever heavy means for each individual is different, but when it's really heavy, that's when we figure out really what our mind is made out of.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean, the reason I said that previous statement was because a lot of our listeners aren't competitive Surfing, but I think as, even as free surfers or non -competitive surfers, we still feel the similar feelings of how judgment can affect our performance. Like we don't, we usually surf our best when we're by ourselves or we're with a close group of friends and there's often a lot of anxiety around Surfing in front of better people or a crowded lineup where you kind of get shunned if you miss a wave or you mess up something. And is it the ability to be present and to really pay attention to the detail sounds like that's the key to kind of overcome these barriers?
Well.
Michael Gervais
Yeah, and it sounds so trite to say it. It really does sound Stripe to say, you know, being present is the anecdote or is the solution. It is for everything and it's really hard. It's very difficult to do and if we don't train our minds through focused strategies, the noise in the environment overrides our brain's primary function, which is survival. And so if there's noise or threat in the environment, real or perceived, it completely hijacks our survival mechanism inside of ourselves.
So, you know, it's like, yes, it sounds simple to say Dall-E need to do is be present and to focus on the task at hand. But there's so many different variables in our own head as well as in the environment that trigger a very native and biological response to ignore the focus strategy and try to get the hell out of there. And so, you know, I just wanna make sure that we land that it's hard to override your DNA. It's not that different than thinking about changing your posture. It's possible, but you gotta really work on it, relentlessly so.
So it's like that's the type of commitment to learning how to become present that is required.
Michael Frampton
What are some of the most common barriers that get in the way of being present?
Michael Gervais
Well, there's two main themes, right? When the first is the internal conversations that we have with ourselves about not being good enough, about danger that could take place. And it's the internal dialogue mostly around those two. And the third variable is fatigue.
So not fitting in or being good enough, real danger that we're sorting out in our head and some sort of fatigue are the most of the internal struggles along with a fourth, if you're biologically born with some sort of attention deficit disorder, right? So those are kind of the internal processes that get in the way. And that's all inner dialogue stuff really.
And then the external environment is when there's real danger, you know, out there is that, and whatever that danger is, whether it's what other people think of you, which is a very low form of danger, but tends to be one of the most crippling forms of danger in modern times. In modern times, we're not yielding. Most of us are not, you know, yielding samurai swords or yielding, you know, like in the cowboy days, some sort of gunfight on a regular basis. That's not what we have to deal with. Most of us are relatively safe, have a roof over our head, have majority of us have food that can sustain us and a system of belonging that is intact.
So the perception outside for, I'm sorry, the experience outside, the danger outside in Surfing, when you're in conditions that are heavy, you know, people think that, I'm sorry, the little rabbit hole here, people think that Surfing dangerous and everyone listening to your podcast knows that most surf conditions are not dangerous. You know, there are those moments that it gets heavy, you know, and, but for the most part, you know, it's just not dangerous. And so at least that's been my experience. Unless you're Surfing like incredibly shallow slabs or reef breaks or, you know, I think there's this imaginary line where it becomes all business at like about double overhead where you've really got to lock in. But all of that being said, internal and external noise is the thing that gets in the way of the signal. Okay.
Michael Frampton
And what is the signal?
Michael Gervais
Being present.
Michael Frampton
And is being present something that we can do all of the time?
Michael Gervais
Theoretically, sure. Theoretically, yeah, that's possible. And that's, that level of attainment is like what the sages have demonstrated.
You know, whether you believe in prophets or living gods or whatever, you know, whether it's Muhammad or Jesus or Buddha or the Dalai LLaMA in modern times, like that is essentially what those stories and life efforts are about, is that they're the living expression of presence. And when that takes place, they end up transforming the world.
So that's rare. So I'm not, I guess that is like the goal, but really that is such rarefied space. There's handfuls of them across the, you know, millennia of human existence.
So I think that while that might be possible and is possible for all of us, it's more like, okay, how do I be present more often? And to do that requires training outside, I think outside of rugged environments. Now I'll tell you this as well, is what one of the things that I've really been fortunate enough to learn from some of the most extreme and intense risk -takers in the world, people that their life and limb are at risk, is that they use hostile environments as a forcing function to be present.
So it's not that that's a shortcut, but when it's heavy, whatever that might be, whether it's free climbing, whether it's Surfing in whatever conditions, but when it's really heavy for you, if you're not present, the best in the world talk about it's way too dangerous and it forces their mind to be all in. So, and that's on the extreme side of conditions. The other way to become more present is something that has been around for thousands of years, 2 ,500 to be exact is that we can best tell, is like some sort of mindfulness training where you're sitting on a pillow or standing or eating mindfully or walking mindfully or breathing mindfully. And there's nothing hostile about that moment other than the little noise that you have inside your head, that little conversation that can be brutal at times. But so those are the two ways that I understand best to be able to train focus.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so it's been said that there is nothing but this present moment. So technically speaking, we can't really live outside of the present moment, but I think maybe what you're trying to get at is that if during that present moment, you're thinking about something going wrong in the future or something that has gone wrong in the past, then that is somehow occupying space and time in the mind and sort of clogging up your random access memory to actually be aware of what is going on now. Am I right in saying that? Yes.
Michael Gervais
So there is nothing other than the present moment is a beautiful way to think about it. And so the Zen traditions will talk about being at the center of now. And so there's a more mechanical way to think about it. And people will talk about your mind can go one of three places, it go to the past or the future or now. That's one way to think about it, but that's a very mechanical thought. And through quantum math and physics and advanced philosophical discussions with some real science backing, there just might be more than one universe that we don't know about, but that's a rabbit hole that I'm not skilled enough to go down.
So the way that I understand the present moment is that there is only this moment. Now, let's talk about the quality of being on time. And the Zen traditions, again, will talk about being at the center of now. And the musicians will talk about being on time. That's another way of thinking about it.
So if your mind is fully consumed with the one thing that you're doing now, and then again now, then you're on time or at the center of now. And if some of your mental activity is thinking about what could go wrong or has gone wrong or anything other than being completely absorbed in now, then it's like we've fragged the hard drive. We've created some sort of parsing that pulls us from being completely at the center of now. We can still be productive. We can still perform very well, but it doesn't mean that we're at our true best because that is a rare thing to do, to have what, again, I'll go back to some of the Zen traditions called no mind. Where there are no thoughts. It's just a complete dictating or response to the conditions of the environment now and again, now.
Michael Frampton
So the self -talk you mentioned before is something that sort of gets in the way of being in the center of now. Is self -talk something that can be stopped or is it just changed and minimized?
Michael Gervais
So self -talk is, it doesn't necessarily get in the way. It's the thing that brings us to it as well.
So self -talk, if it's negative, critical, frustrating, doubt, if it's any of that type of stuff, then it pulls us away. So the most mechanical and simplest way that I've come to learn from good science and from those in the amphitheater of danger is that there's two basic minds. There's the negative mind and the positive mind. Let's just make it really simple. And the negative mind, let me say this more clearly, negative mind, positive mind, and if you can hang out in positive mind long enough, and that doesn't mean like let's hold hands and go skipping, be all positive, but positive mind, which is more about focusing on now or what could be great, it's like this relentless mental toughness to be here right now, even when it's going sideways. If you can hang out in that space long enough, you slip into the third mind, which is called no mind.
So the work is to recognize when you're in a negative mind, to fight or let go or trust or somehow shift your mind or the quality of your thoughts over to positive mind. And if you can just hang out there long enough, you'll accidentally slip into that thing that from science perspective we call flow state. Athletes for years have talked about the zone, musicians talk about it being in the pocket, and the Zen traditions talk about it as mu shen or no mind.
Michael Frampton
Now, when it comes to flow states, to use that term, it's quite an intense mixture of neurochemistry going on. Does our physical body need to recover from that flow state, or is that something that we can always sort of strive to get more and more of?
Michael Gervais
Well, anytime that we have a dramatic shift in our internal ecosystem and there's a pendulum that's moved in one direction, whether it's fight or flight or flow state or submission or freezing, whenever there's been a significant shift to respond to the demands of the environment, there is a pendulum that swings the equal and opposite direction. So yes, there's five responses, and most people only talk about two when it comes to high -risk scenarios. Most people talk about fight and flight. But again, there's submission and freezing and flow state that can happen.
So when we have an intense internal response and the sympathetic nervous system is kicked on and all of the neurochemicals in our brain that are phenomenal and highly addictive, dopamine, serotonin, andazomib, endorphins, all that really good stuff that kicks on, our body has to do something with it. And so we need to push it out and flood it. And so that is the recovery or the exhaust, if you will. And we do know that people that produce too much adrenaline, they find themselves in a condition of adrenal fatigue. And so people that come back from war or people that are video gamers, like junkie video gamers, or extreme athletes that are really looking for the thrill as opposed to craft development, and they're looking for a thrill in everything they do, they burn out their adrenal system. And so that's a dramatic way to think about a long -term recovery process. But yes, in every microcycle of flow, the thought, and Stephen Kotler, a good friend of mine, has really found some groundbreaking ideas and research around this, that there is a recovery phase involved in the most optimal state a human being can be in. Now, that really is when you're using thrill as a way, or risk as a way to hijack the intense focus systems inside of our body, both structurally and neurochemically. Because I don't think that if you've reached this level of Mastery that we're talking about the sages reaching, that there's a recovery, like a massive recovery dump that they need to deal with.
Michael Frampton
So there's quite a difference between going from one extreme flow state to another, as in like an adrenaline seeker, and then you've got the athlete or the person that's truly on the path of Mastery in learning their craft.
Michael Gervais
You know, I think we're too early in the conversation to really know, but that's an initial hunch that I have. And I'd be curious to hear some of your guests and some of your listeners, their thought. But that's my early hunch in the difference in the quality and the tone and the methodology to reach flow state or no mind.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, because there's a bit of a culture in sort of the extreme sports world is, you know, I wanna enter flow as deeply as possible and that's how I'm gonna learn and grow the fastest. Do you agree with that statement?
Michael Gervais
I think it's a fantastic approach and there's a cost to it, because if you don't enter it, you get hurt, right? And it still doesn't mean if you enter flow state that you're going to not be hurt, because sometimes mother nature is so unpredictable and so severe in consequences that things happen. We can go on and on about what that could mean, but you can get a picture in your own mind about how there's real danger, even if you're in flow state.
So yeah, that's one way. And I think it's something that the people that have been on the other side of seeking no mind, like the mindfulness, the contemplative meditators or single point meditators have been doing for a long time.
Like they need a little bit of the risk -taking piece and the risk -taking and the type T was an old term for type thrill. You know, there's type A, type B, whatever personalities. That the type team probably need a little bit more of the sitting. And so there's probably a harmony that we can find in some kind of level. But I don't think we could say this absolutely there's only one way, but there's probably a blend that we could all work on figuring out that's more optimal for us.
Michael Frampton
What's the difference between mind and brain?
Michael Gervais
Well, so we'll start with the mechanical first. The brain is that three pounds of silly putty that sits in your skull and it's literally tissue. And inside of that tissue, it's very complicated. Myself and I feel like I'm a novice and I've been studying it a long time, but people that all they do is study the anatomy and neurochemical and neurostructural parts of the brain are saying the same exact thing.
Like it's this amazing three pounds of tissue that we're not sure exactly how it works. We know there's chemicals involved. We know that there is structures and regions and functions that are somewhat predictable, but at the same time, it's like it's the beginning of the wild west. And with the advent of great science to be able to see functional MRI magnetic resonance imaging, like we're starting to learn more about it. And we can get some color graphs from the actual structures of the brain. It's a phenomenal time to be interested in the brain, both from a structural and a functional and a chemical standpoint. And so that's what the brain is. Then the mind, now there's a great, beautiful conversation Slack debate about what the mind is. And it's been around for a long time. And I'd say probably like 15 years ago, the buzz in neuroscience or neuroscience, meaning like primarily interested in the tissue and the brain and the structures, there were some leading thinkers in that space that would say there's no such thing as the mind. It's just the artifact from neurochemical and structural occurrences that are, I'm sorry, not structural, but functional occurrences that are happening in the brain. There's no mind. There's no rider of the elephant, so to speak, or rider of the horse. That's just a figment of your imagination to try to explain this thing of personality or this thing of psychology or this artifact. They would say the mind is an artifact from the neurochemical and activity of the brain. And so I don't see it that way. I do not see it that way. I see that the mind and the brain are intimately connected and that the mind is not an artifact of the brain. It is intimately connected, but the mind is something that we cannot see. And therefore we really don't know what it is, but we can observe it and we can impact it and change it and guide it. And so that is like the watchmaker's watchmaker. That idea that we have this part of us that we can't see, but we know is true. And it's not just the flare, this uncontrollable flare from a brain response, but it is something separate, but intimately related to the nervous system, to the structure of the brain, and can impact neurochemical responses when we're skilled at it.
So I see them as separate. And I see is that our mind can shape our brain and our brain can shape our mind. And so it's this beautiful interplay and interaction between the two.
Michael Frampton
So is the mind both, it can be aware of itself, but change itself?
Michael Gervais
Yeah, for sure. And what, yeah, and that's where this gets really complicated.
Like how does the watchmaker's watchmaker control and change things? Like where does it start and end? And it gets really confusing. And like, if you think about some of the ancient texts, this is a line from Christianity. When they asked Jesus, they said, who are you?
Like, who the hell do you think you are, basically? And he said, I am, the I am. And so, I mean, this, we can go down a serious rabbit hole, Michael, about this.
Like what, like this is a conversation about consciousness, which is very complicated. And just to play this game, just for a moment, it's like, when you say, I am Michael, who is the I?
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Michael Gervais
You know, and there's a rabbit hole to go play down. And for anyone that's like, wants to, is intrigued by it, I implore that it's a, it is a wonderfully complicated and challenging and somewhat overwhelming question to begin to answer. And it is one of the most fundamental mindfulness questions in the tradition of meditation, is to ask yourself the question in a mindfulness kind of state, who am I? And that's been around for a long time. And so, I think it's an important question to entertain at some level, but just knowing it can be a rabbit hole that can take us to a place that is really confusing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, let's maybe bring it back a little bit. So, another way to put it, maybe, this is what I'm thinking, is the mind kind of a filter between sensory and motor?
Michael Gervais
Yeah, you could think of it that way. I think of it a little bit, I think of it a little bit differently.
So, the filter is kind of like what the neuroscientists would say is the mind is an artifact. And it's just this thing that is, of course you think it's there, because it's just based on sensory or motor information. And you have to be able to understand sensory and motor information in some kind of way. I think the mind is different. I think that the mind, for me, the way I've come to understand the mind, is that it is the horse rider of the horse.
So, the horse is the body and the brain, and the horse rider is the guider of it. So, the mind, you, let's make this more concrete, you determine the experience in life as opposed to being a responsive body of tissue that is reacting only to the experiences in life. More concretely, when you look out at the Surfing line, you dictate the thoughts about the surf break and the conditions. And that, what I'm talking about there, is that you are the mind. And if you're really aware of your thoughts and your belief systems, then you can impact and change and influence the quality and efficiency of the tissue inside your body.
Michael Frampton
And when you get --- And how do we do that?
Michael Gervais
Awareness. What's the strategy?
Yeah, it begins with awareness. And the first, so awareness of the inner dialogue, awareness of the way that you respond, automatically, to a condition or an experience or a circumstance. And because if you haven't trained your mind, you do become almost like this, I don't know, sleepwalking, responsive human being that is kind of non, sub -awake, you know? And it's because you haven't put in the work to think about or be aware of, how do I want to experience said moment, whatever that moment is. And so it begins with awareness, but prior to awareness, because awareness is a skill, it does begin with a fundamental decision. And that decision is, and there's no bullshit around this, like it starts with the decision that you have to make. And that decision is, what and how am I going to experience life?
So how do I want to experience life and what am I going to set my life efforts towards? So it's the how and the what. And without that fundamental decision, I don't know another way to help people. And most people that are not in dangerous environments or on world leading or even world class, just a tick under world leading, is that most, if not all of them have really sorted that decision out. And the rest of us are just trying to figure out how to get over today or how to get by today and have not set and made that fundamental decision about who they are and where they're going, really.
Michael Frampton
So are you saying that's the foundation? Yeah.
Michael Gervais
And then once we make that, otherwise, seriously, I think we're really just bullshitting our way through life. If we're not careful, people will try to keep asking for the tactics. How do you do that? How are you present? How are you so poised? How? Which is great. And that question is really about the tactic. It's like we're in this age of wanting a shortcut or a hack. And there are no hacks for this. There are no shortcuts for this. Being present and focused in emotionally risky environments or physically risky environments, by the way, there's no such thing as mentally risky. It's either emotional or physical. To be poised and present in those moments requires a fundamental decision first and then subsequent training of the mind. And so once the decision is made, then the second is that the training begins with better awareness, with increasing your awareness of your physiological experience and your psychological experience. And you can change both of them. You can impact both of them. And I'm sorry if it's like, I'm just so sick and tired, seriously, of like the seven steps to whatever, the three most essentials, whatever. There are no seven steps. It is a fundamental orientation to organize your life based on the decision of how and what you're gonna pursue as a life effort. And until that, it's just all made up softness.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I totally agree. There's a quote I love. And that's, if the why is big enough, the hows will look after themselves.
Michael Gervais
Yeah, there you go.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And me personally, I went through a stage of my life where I thought, okay, Surfing just my hobby or my sport or my pastime. And when I made that decision to make Surfing a priority and just to really own it and live it and love it and master it, then I found that everything else in my life fell into place better.
So sort of deep down, I guess I knew there was always that, that desire and that just sort of, it's almost indescribable how much love I have for Surfing. And it wasn't until I really owned that I saw things start to come together.
Michael Gervais
There you go. There you go. Fundamental decision.
You know, like fundamental decision.
Michael Frampton
And are you finding similar stories with some of the elite athletes you work with?
Michael Gervais
Really? Uncommonly so. It is a relentless, now I'm talking about the 0 .00005 percenters in the world.
Like it is, that is a common thread for almost all of them, seriously. And so it just like, sometimes I need like a two by four over the back of the head to really get the thread. And that one is an easy one to grab.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And I guess it's easy for us to imagine ourselves, you know, if we were an elite athlete, how committed we could be to that.
Like for example, I mean, you interviewed Ian Walsh. I mean, Ian Walsh is obviously an amazing Surfing, but we often don't realize how much time, effort, thought, love went into, you know, went into that.
And then, but then we think of our own lives and we think man, you know, you either go down that path and you forego the rest of your life, or somehow you integrate some of that into your Surfing life, yet still maintain a balance of, you know, work obligations and family life. And the question I have around that statement is it right for us to wake up in the morning and be motivated by our love of Surfing, or is that pushing things too far?
Michael Gervais
I think that's a complicated question, you know, because I wanna kind of pull it apart just a little bit, but let me start with like the most simple answer. And the most simple answer is that the thing that we do can never define who we are, but it's the activity that helps us express and realize who we are at our potential, you know, I'm sorry, at our center. And so it's the craft that allows us to master the self. And if we're not careful, we miss that and we become just a Surfing. And that is an awful thing to be able to, awful limiting thing to be able to do, you know, and I could talk a lot more about that because I don't wanna sound judgmental about it, but we are so much more than just the thing we do, but the craft is the way that we reveal and refine and understand better who we really are so that, this is me talking, there's no science around this, so that we can be connected in relationships.
So it's through, this is again, Mike talking here, it's through relationships that we become who we are, through relationships with ourself, through relationships with nature, through relationships with others, through relationships with our craft. And it's that interplay between the two that really teaches us everything about who we really are.
So I think, I do think the simple answer to your question is yes, but I don't think that it's simple to do. I think that there needs to be some sort of sophistication about like, what are you really doing in this world? If it is just to Surfing, I find that those people end up really struggling in other parts of their life, or if it's just to be a basketball player or whatever, like when they're not doing that thing, or they're too old to really do that thing well, then the other parts of their life struggle. And we can see that case in point in the NFL, the National Football League in America, is that according to research, 87 % of NFLers within two years are broke or divorced or both. And so they had meaning, they had rich meaning while they're in the highest form of American football. And it's real simple why they get up every day and work so fricking hard every day in and day out. And football is a very complicated, rugged learning environment.
And then if they miss the kind of stitching of, wow, meaning and purpose is really cool, what is my meaning and purpose in life outside of ball? Then they struggle, and they struggle deeply after the circus moves on without them. And so it's a long way, I think, to answer your really beautiful question.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, it's a tricky topic to articulate and talk about. So even someone who's a professional football player, who's being paid a lot of money to be not just the best football player they can be, but to improve and help lift the team, are you kind of saying that when that person is, or that person still needs to have some sort of balance and time away from football?
Michael Gervais
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people that there's that common idea that you have to think about it everywhere you go, you have to eat, breathe, whatever, sleep about it. No, I mean, it just, life doesn't work that way.
Like, yes, it's that, I think what they're trying to say is that there is a required deep commitment to learning and a deep commitment to risk -taking and sorting things out and practice, and being like really dedicated to dedicate an ample amount of intensity and time every day to refine the craft. Yes. And there's so much other parts of life that both are required, that require watering of that part of parts of life and are fulfilling and are emotionally meaningful, that without them, we become these shells. And so I don't think that the simplicity of the idea that you have to eat, think, whatever, just about the thing you do is the answer to becoming a very dynamic and maybe master of craft.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so the path to Mastery doesn't necessarily mean that Surfing controls your life. It means that you are dedicating a certain amount of time to Mastery Surfing, but you're in control of when you surf and when you think about surfing so that there's a balance.
Michael Gervais
Well, I think that Surfing is the laboratory. And so it's like, you go out and just have a great time and not catch many waves, that's fine. You can go out and have a great time and really be on point on your Surfing. But surfing is a laboratory to figure out how you respond to the unpredictable, how you value structuring time. It's like, it's the laboratory. And I'm not sure I know how to help anybody have balance in life because it's just challenging to have balance. I don't know anyone on the world stage that has balance. But what I have come to understand and learn from them is that when they're in the thing that they're in, they're all in. And that could be a conversation and or it could be dropping into a wave.
Like they've figured out to maximize their life experience, they need to be in. And that goes back to where we started this conversation about working and training to be in the center of now. And so...
Michael Frampton
So if Surfing is the laboratory for increasing our time in the center of now, by getting better at that while we're surfing, is that then gonna help us to be more in the center of now when we're having dinner with our friends?
Michael Gervais
Only if you value the experience or the experiences when you are fully present. So you can, if like, if it is a laboratory to be at the center of now, and because you just wanna Surfing better, then when you get out of the water, you can become extremely agitated because you're not Surfing or the surface or whatever.
Like, so it's like at the first surface level, it's not just about becoming a better surfer. Yeah, that's good. I love it. I love that. It just happens that you and I both enjoy Surfing, but what's underneath of that is the joy of progression, the joy of learning, the joy of growing, the joy of straining and striving and letting go and trusting. All of that is, it just so happens that we both enjoy Surfing. It could be tennis, it could be woodworking, it could be steel making, it could be anything. And if it's just about doing that thing better, then when we're not doing that thing, when we're at home at dinner, it's very easy to not translate or stitch those learnings into everyday living. And they tend to be very tortured people. And you hear things like, I'm miserable. The Surfing has been flat. Whoa. Wow, so the environment dictates your experience. Okay, that's interesting. That doesn't sound very strong. It doesn't sound very resilient. It sounds actually that you're a victim to your environment.
Michael Frampton
Exactly, and it's so common with Surfing, very common. Yeah.
So there's something deeper than Surfing Mastery and that's life mastery.
Michael Gervais
Well, yeah, I mean, so again, the premise is that whatever the craft is, whatever the hobby is, if you want to take it in that direction, whatever the thing is that we're doing is meant to be the laboratory to sort out really who we are and how we can improve being able to be on time or to be at the center of now, to be more present, to be more focused or committed, which are all sub characteristics of people that are able to enjoy the life experience rather than being agitated and irritated or scared or frustrated or overwhelmed because the environment is not giving them what they think that they deserve or need.
Michael Frampton
Wow, a lot of food for thought there.
Michael Gervais
You know, it's funny, Michael, obviously we were just meeting and after I say something, I feel like you're going, okay, dude, what the hell did you just say? Like, I don't even know what to make of that.
So I'm sorry if I'm being too esoteric, but. Not at love it.
Michael Frampton
All, man. This is almost turning into like a personal therapy session, I But I think a lot of Surfing can identify with what I'm talking about because, yeah, because Surfing can be so all -consuming. No.
Michael Gervais
No, surfing can't. It's that the person that does surfing, and then now change that to the person that does mountaineering or the person that does skiing.
Like, it's the person that allows their environment to dictate their experience that loses. And so if you just happen to be a Surfing and you're looking to the conditions to set your mind, you've missed, we have missed it. And so we call it mindset, right? But really it's about us setting our mind on how and what we want to do. Go back to that fundamental decision. And until you make that fundamental decision, you just, we just end up being at the whips end of the environmental conditions. Look at it, it's flat again, or it's blown out. Damn it, I had to go do that thing at work and I couldn't get out in time, or I had that call.
Like, that's just a disaster. Yeah, and so I think that is, this is gonna sound judgmental in some kind of way, but I've lived it, and so I feel like because I've lived it so deeply, I've been, not damaged by it, but like really struggled through this, it's a lazy way to go through life, to need an external condition for the internal to be okay. And the people that survived, I'm gonna go heavy for just a minute, the people that survived Auschwitz, the people that survived the most brutal conditions known to man, what they have come to learn is that they had to dictate their experience in life to find joy, peace, and happiness in the worst conditions. And the most beautiful book, game -changing book, that I hope that you hopefully have read or many of your folks have been exposed to, is Viktor Frankl's book called Man Search for Meaning. And the first half of that book fundamentally altered how I understood the human condition, and it is rad.
Michael Frampton
Okay, I haven't read that one. It's on the list now, definitely.
Michael Gervais
Yeah, I think you'll really enjoy it.
Michael Frampton
It smells like you're pointing towards something within our mind that's constant that we can always fall.
Michael Frampton
Back on.
Michael Gervais
Well yeah, so we are always with ourselves. Our mind goes everywhere we go. And so I don't, really, there's only three things as humans we can train. And I'll put an asterisk to maybe a fourth, but for sure I know that there's only three things we can train. We can train our body, we can train our craft, and we can train our mind. And if you're only training your craft, or just training your body and your craft, we are missing a fundamental pillar. And so our mind goes everywhere we go, and our mind is that, if you wanna call it a filter, or the interpreter of the experience, or the dictator of experience, then we're just missing a huge opportunity.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, let's bring it back to something a little practical, and I wanna use an example from my own Surfing life to kind of pull at this. A few weeks ago, I was on my way to go for a Surfing, and when I pulled up, I checked my emails. And I got an email saying, hey, your car registration is due.
You know, you need to re -register your car. And then I was like, okay, yeah, that's fine, I'll do that today.
And then when I went out Surfing, I was sitting in the water waiting for a wave, and the fact that my car needs to be registered is like just occupying space and time in my mind. And then when a wave came, that thought and those thoughts were slowing me down, is how it felt. Taking away some of my Surfing or wave awareness.
So when I find myself back in a situation similar to that, what do I do?
Michael Gervais
Well, you must have like a really nice car. No.
Yeah, like that's interesting that thought would be the thing that gets in the way of.
Michael Frampton
The point is, it's, you know, sometimes when we're sitting out the back Surfing, it's those little thoughts that, because we're sitting there and waiting for a wave, we start thinking about other things in our lives, and we don't stay present and watching the ocean and ready to react. And then sometimes we get caught up in that thread. And when a wave does come, we can't switch back to the wave.
Michael Gervais
Yeah, that's like being on the edge of now, or your mind in the more mechanical way is like your mind is ahead of time. Like you're thinking about other stuff, right? And so you miss, you're just not on time with this moment. And so you're half second late popping up, or you miss, you know, the spot you wanna be, or whatever.
So --- Yeah, so that's fine that you're, the natural state of our mind is like a drunk monkey. It's curious and sloppy and all over the place. And so if we just begin to have a relationship with that drunk monkey and say, look at you thinking about the car. Okay, come on back to now, here we go, come on back. And you just recenter, I'm sorry, refocus on something now, totally cool. Or entertain it, entertain the thought, knowing that you're just might miss something that's happening out the back, but entertain the thought, like, okay, when I, and make a plan, like, okay, when I get home, first thing I'm gonna do, so I don't forget it, I'm gonna do A, B, and C, make sure I lick the stamp, put it in, bang, okay, done. Now you don't have to think about it anymore. And if it does come up again, you can just say, you know, okay, I'm done with you, come on back to now.
So it's like, it's not a big deal if we have a relationship with how our mind works. But if we don't, so you had like, you had that kind of first step I was talking about, you had awareness, but then didn't have the second step, which is maybe the skill or the tool to do something with it. And if you don't practice it, then it can feel like it's really overwhelming because we haven't built the skill on how to refocus.
Michael Frampton
So you mentioned mindfulness, is that how we practice the skill of awareness?
Michael Gervais
That's one way, sure, it certainly is. And it's very, let's call it efficient because it's the only thing that you're doing in a present moment is focusing on now. And so it's a really efficient training because as soon as your mind wanders, then you simply just refocus back to now, again and again, a thousand times, over and over again. And the goal is not to have no mind, that's not the goal, that's an accident. The goal is not to have no thoughts, that's an accident. The goal is to be connected to the one thing with great intensity. And that one thing can be very boring or very risky, such as the free climber or the base jumper, or it can be very boring, such as focusing on a breathing, I'm sorry, one breath at a time, or a flickering candle or a mantra or whatever. And so those are kind of like the two ways to train mindfulness. Another way to train your mind is to value that your thoughts matter. And so when you're out the back and you notice that you're thinking about something and it's creating an emotional response, then you just kind of go like, cool.
And then you make a decision. Do I wanna keep going with that? Is that the thing I wanna focus on? Because maybe that's a cool thing to focus on.
I mean, sometimes it feels like you wanna be a machine and catch every fricking wave, but other times it's like, no, let's not do that. I know there's six minute lulls, so I don't need to focus on every little glimmer of the water on the horizon or the slapping of my board under underneath the current right now. I can focus on taxes. I could focus on a problem I'm trying to sort out. I could focus on how I wanna do my relationship with my loved one.
So I don't wanna be esoteric, but it's a basic strategy just to value your thoughts. And then when you have them, you make a decision on what you wanna do with them. And I will tell you, the more you fight, the harder it becomes. If you say, son of a, there's that fricking thought of my car registration. God bless it, what's wrong with me? Now you're having a conversation that's just about frustration. It's a frustrating experience that you have created based on your interpretation of the meaning of your mind's activity focusing on that thing, that registration.
Michael Frampton
So is awareness meant to be judgment -free?
Michael Gervais
Well, awareness is like the first step. And a lot of people are pretty aware of their thoughts, like pretty aware, but then don't have the second thing, which is the tools or the trainings to bring it back to now. And if the whole thing about judgment, like there's a really deep conversation we can have about positive regard, nonjudgmental, noncritical mind with this whole thing. There's a whole deep thing that we can do about that from a spiritual frame point. But from a performance standpoint, that noncritical or nonjudgmental approach to thoughts, it's like it's just removing a step to get back to now. Because if I notice that my mind is thinking about my car registration, and then I say, there I go again. It's like I've just added another layer to coming back to focusing on, I don't know, maybe the sun on my cheek or something as simple as that.
So it does open the door for a train of thought that might not be very productive. And literally, I mean, we talk about that thing, train of thought. And if we're not careful, our mind is like a fast moving train that will take us somewhere. It might not be the place we wanna necessarily be.
Michael Frampton
If there's anyone out there listening that's inspired to do some mindfulness awareness practice, do you have a book or some online content or anything like that you could point us in the direction of?
Michael Gervais
Yeah, I've been too busy doing it. I wish I had some of the bandwidth to write and capture it. And I'm making a commitment to do so in the future. But there's great books out there. And people like more Western thinkers want to go read about something and like really understand it before they do it. And I bet you didn't learn Surfing that way. I bet you had a couple of your buddies that kind of paddled out, showed you how to put your leash on and just kind of you follow them out and then figured it out. I don't know, like, that's how most people learn Surfing.
You know, and then maybe they get some coaching. So my thought is to go do the fricking thing.
And then if you want to read about it, that's cool. But it's not about acquiring more knowledge at some point. It's as simple as if something in this conversation has been touching and you're like, man, I need, I'm craving to be more present in my life because I'm overwhelmed, I'm tired, I'm unprepared to deal with the in my life. And I'm fidgety and anxious and I don't want it anymore. I just don't want to live that way anymore. Then if you're feeling in some kind of way those things, then you might just, I don't know, borrow my experience and say mindfulness fundamentally changed my life. And it's as simple as focusing on one breath for a time for an extended period of time over and over again as if a loved one depended on you getting the inhale right, then the exhale right. And if you could set a timer for one minute, you'd be on your way. If you could do it for two minutes, you're doing a little bit better. If you could do it for 20 minutes, pretty epic. Research would suggest that six minutes a day is a minimally effective dose and 20 minutes is more optimal. And so, but it's not about just the time. Of course, it's about the quality. And so that's it, one breath at a time. And if you could add a little nuance there, you'd have your exhale be a little bit longer than your inhale and you'd just fricking own it like as if that's the only thing that mattered.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so there's a certain amount of intensity or a quality behind it.
Michael Gervais
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
And how do we balance, can you be too intense with that sort of practice though?
Michael Frampton
Yes.
Michael Gervais
Yeah, of course you can.
Michael Frampton
Any guidelines for finding a balance of?
Michael Gervais
Yeah, most people are not too intense. Most people's minds and brains and body get way, get tired so fast that the intensity's not gonna be, over intensity's not gonna be the problem. The challenge is gonna be what do you do when after the first inhale, your mind has already gone to am I doing this right? Because now that's you pulling out of the center. And so the work is refocusing with great intensity back to this moment without critique.
So let's not confuse intensity and judgment. Let's not confuse those two. Okay.
Michael Frampton
How are elite Surfing different from other elite athletes you.
Michael Frampton
Work with?
Michael Gervais
They're not.
Michael Frampton
Not at all?
Michael Gervais
I mean the best of the best in any discipline are so similar. And it's gender neutral too. And I'm talking about, you said elite, so I'm thinking about the ones that have changed the way the world works in their craft. They're not different. Those people are all uniquely themselves. And that's the common thread. They have become artistic because their tool feels as if it's an extension to themselves. And they have great awareness of their inner experience and they're able to play with their mind and their craft in quiet moments, rugged moments, and hostile environments. And is it always easy? No, hell no it's not easy. But they are more alike than they are dissimilar.
Michael Frampton
Interesting. And some of the, you mentioned, well their likeness and the commonality that's ubiquitous throughout elite athletes, does that come back to the why and the love of their craft?
Michael Gervais
Yeah so like the fundamental decision? Yeah.
Yeah yeah. Very few on the world stage are agitated, if you will.
So world leading. Very few are agitated that they still have to do the thing. That being said, it doesn't mean that fatigue doesn't get in the way. It doesn't mean that burnout and staleness are not part of the equation. But they have fundamentally orientated their life towards Mastery. And it's for most of them, and I'm talking about the half a half of percenters, they're not doing it for money and fame and whatever. There are some that love that too. But the internal drive and the hunger for Mastery is far greater than the external. And so the external need, or the need for external recognition or reward.
Michael Frampton
That's secondary.
Michael Gervais
It doesn't mean it can't be high. It just isn't as high.
Yeah. And again, there's nothing wrong with great risters.
You know, there's no judgment or critique about that. But if that's the primary driver, as soon as you get it, you gotta get onto something else. Yeah God, yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Can you describe your relationship with the ocean?
Michael Gervais
It is, it's where I sort everything out. I'm a better human when I'm connected to it. And it's where I really, it's my working laboratory, as I talked about before.
So my relationship is, it's a love affair. And I don't wanna sound cheesy or whatever about it, but I love the way I feel when I'm a little salty, when I feel some, you know, the rhythms of Mother Nature. And Mother Nature is just so awe -inspiring. It challenges both, you know, the parts of our brain that are working to understand shape and dimension, as well as logic and sequence. And so the brain is animated in a really cool way when we're out in the ocean, especially when there's some risk or danger involved. And it's just a great laboratory for how the mind works as well. And so, for me, it feels really good to my body, and it becomes a place where I can sort out how thinking is, really works.
Michael Frampton
Nice. And do you currently have a favorite surfboard?
Michael Gervais
Yeah, whichever one I'm on. Yeah, I mean, are you asking like the board that I ride most often?
Yeah. Yeah, Channel Islands.
You know, it's a local, to Southern California, or California. So I ride a lot of his work, Al Merrick and whatnot.
Yeah, You know, I'm fortunate enough to know a lot of guys on tour.
Michael Frampton
Okay. And do you have a favorite Surfing?
Michael Gervais
And I think that, I wanna not answer that question.
Michael Frampton
Yep, fair enough. Yeah. What about a favorite Surfing film or movie?
Michael Gervais
You know, first one that came to mind was Blazing Boards. And that's gonna date my experience. It was a VHS film way back. And I think I wore that tape out with my buddies. And it was just kind of a classic Surfing film, you know, looking at like Tom Curran and Mark Acaluho, you know, in some classic matchups. And so Blazing Boards, that's the one that comes to mind.
And then, you know, I love stuff like John Florence's new movie. Yeah.
So, you know, I'll go back and forward, but Blazing Boards.
Michael Frampton
Yep, okay. Now, do you personally, and I'm asking whether you recommend it for your athletes, the relationship between pre -performance and music. Is there anything going on there?
Michael Gervais
For sure, 1000%. We know from a science perspective that music impacts mood. And yeah, for sure. And so the first order of business is if you're like, if you want to maximize your experience in life and or Surfing, let's call it the session, if you will. It's one of the ways that we front load the maximizing of that experience is to know what your ideal mindset is. And so if you can identify and target what your ideal mindset is, then everything you do right before you get into the water is to switch that thing on and to get that thing to be reliable. And not at the, again, not at the whips end of a bad wave or a comment by another person or a score or whatever. And so you dictate your, you set your mind and you dictate it. And so once you know your ideal mindset, then everything you do beforehand, whether it's a little jog, a little warmup, pushups, whatever, some yoga stuff that you might do on the sand or not, you throw your leash on and you just go charge. But if there's music involved in it, the purpose of music is to help support that sustainability of your ideal mindset.
Michael Frampton
That's a good way to put.
Michael Frampton
It. And that's obviously, the choice of music is completely individual or is there science behind particular types of music?
Michael Gervais
Totally individual. Now, well, you know what? I don't know if I'm speaking out of turn, but my, I'm not deep into the science of music and physiology, but I know that it does impact mood. And so I think it's completely individualistic. And so whatever puts you, there's a particular way that people carry themselves when they're connected to their ideal mindset. And so, and that's unique to each person. And so the music ought to enhance that.
So like if, and just to make it really concrete, if you get easily keyed up and kind of wound up, you don't want to put in Tool or Metallica or some, you know, Rage Against the Machine. That's not what you want.
You know, you want something more chill, more melodic. But if you like having a crazy kind of vibrant edge and intensity, well then get some of that edge going and play that music.
Yeah, but first you got to know what you're searching for.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Okay. We're running out of time, Michael, but do you have any for those listeners out there who want to get better at Surfing?
Michael Gervais
Yeah, the first order of business is like, invest in the quality of your own mind and invest that from an awareness standpoint and the skills to be able to guide your mind so that you have the ability to be autonomous in life and not to be the quote unquote victim of the circumstance. And so that would be the first.
And then the second is make a fundamental decision. Like who are you and how are you going to experience life? Where are you going?
Like make those fundamental decisions and write that stuff down. I think it goes a real long way.
And then the third I would say is do something to enhance the ability for you to be at the center more often. And I think for me, mindfulness and breathing work, that's been a great accelerant and a great teacher.
So those three. And if I add one more, if I may, is get around some really fricking bright people and people that understand the deeper meanings in life and or something that you really want to learn. And so get around really fricking bright people and be open to learning. And so be open to looking stupid. And that's just a wonderful gift you can give yourself.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's great advice. And Michael, thank you so much for your time. It's been invaluable for me and hopefully the listeners as well.
Michael Gervais
Love what you're doing, Michael. Well done.
Michael Frampton
Thank you. And those that are listening, Michael's website, well, Michael's got a podcast, Finding Mastery. It's available on iTunes and findingmastery .com. Is that correct?
Michael Gervais
Dot net, findingmastery .net.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Well, if you Google Finding Mastery, it'll come up. Awesome. Again, Michael, thank you so much.
Michael Gervais
Brilliant. All the best to you, Michael. Take care. Thank you.
Michael Frampton
Wow, so much wisdom. So many gold nuggets in that interview. Well worth, I've listened to it myself so many times and I keep getting more and more out of it, but I just wanted to maybe summarize things a little bit from my perspective. I think when he's saying towards the end of the interview that there's something that all great athletes have in common. Elite athletes have the ability to be 100 % focused on now, on what's going on now. And obviously what he's saying is that we can train. And so obviously some people naturally have that, but we can train our minds to be better at focusing on what is going on now. And like he says in the interview, it can be done with a mindfulness meditation practice. And that is really simple. To use his words is you focus on the one thing. It could be your breath. Your breathing is the most common.
And then when you realize, as soon as you realize your focus is drifting away from that, then just refocus with great intensity back to this moment again and again. It's as simple as that. The practice is as simple as that. And for me, in terms of in Surfing, it's just if you realize, when you're sitting at the back and you realize that your mind is going off, and a wave comes to you and it's not a wave of consequence, so you don't have to 100 % focus because it's just an average wave.
Well, that gives us an opportunity to learn how just focus.
Michael Frampton
To.
Michael Frampton
So it's something we can practice in the water as well. We brushed on a topic, which Michael said was foundational to all of this stuff, which is the importance of self -awareness and knowing what you want to focus your life efforts on. Now, Michael works with people that already know this stuff. They know what they want. They just want to improve what they're doing. His speciality is not helping you to refine what that is and discover what that is. But one of my previous that is his speciality, and that's Dr.
Michael Frampton
Guests.
Michael Frampton
Demartini, which I interviewed a few episodes ago. So I urge you guys to go back and listen to that interview. And he has a book called which is just a book completely on this topic of self -awareness and goal -setting and things like that.
Michael Frampton
The Values Factor.
Michael Frampton
It is a phenomenal book. There's a couple of other interviews I did around this space as well. If you haven't listened, you can go back and listen to the Matt Greggs interview and the Richard Bennett interview as well, where we talk about the mind a lot in those two interviews as well as the Demartini one is. And I really loved his thoughts on the surfer's relationship to Surfing as well. And listeners, please, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this conversation. And if you just go to the and just go to the post where I shared this interview, and just in the comments sections, let's just try and get a little thread going.
Michael Frampton
Facebook page.
Michael Frampton
I'd love to hear you guys' feedback on this. There's so much going on in this conversation. And listeners, if you are enjoying this podcast and want to hear more, deeper conversations, interviews, et cetera, then please just share with your friends and please rate and review on iTunes. That helps a lot. But ultimately, yeah, just, you know, let me know, let others know on Facebook what's going Help me spread the word, because the more listeners we have, the more time I can spend on doing this and creating content.
Michael Frampton
On here.
Michael Frampton
Until next time, thank you.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep Surfing.
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Chasing Big Waves and Overcoming Fear with Karl Attkins
Have you ever wondered what separates the world's top big wave surfers from the rest? What mindset, preparation, and experiences drive someone to ride waves as tall as buildings?
In this episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, Michael Frampton sits down with Karl Attkins, a self-made big wave surfer from Sydney's Northern Beaches. Karl shares his inspiring journey, from overcoming his fear of big waves as a teen to chasing the world’s most intense swells—all while balancing a full-time job. If you're looking for insights into mastering fear, honing your craft, and pushing your limits, this is an episode you won't want to miss.
Learn how to mentally and physically prepare for big wave surfing and why preparation is key to overcoming fear.
Discover Karl’s approach to training, including breathwork and lessons learned from surfing legends like Shane Dorian and Greg Long.
Hear about Karl's incredible stories, including his first trip to Shipstern Bluff and how commitment and intuition have guided his career.
Press play to learn the secrets to mastering your fears and unlocking your full potential in both surfing and life.
Karl Attkins grew up surfing and competing on Sydney's Northern Beaches, since finishing his competitive career Karl has been chasing big waves.
Karl talks about the importance of being prepared before committing to a big wave surf. Preparation of body, mind, and equipment is essential before you step outside your comfort zone, and stepping outside your comfort zone is the key to progression.
Karl also helps us to identify some of the subtleties around fear, intuition, and instinct, and how awareness of them can help you to face your fears, and avoid injury. How Breath Enhancement Training (B.E.T.) with Nam Baldwin has helped his surfing, both big wave and competitive.
Notable Quotes
"I didn’t ignore the fear—it was there—but I embraced it and went out there anyway."
"Being prepared is the number one key to surfing big waves. I’ve done it unprepared and prepared, and trust me, being prepared makes all the difference."
"Not every day is your day. It’s important to listen to that little voice telling you to hold back sometimes."
"There’s no better feeling than sitting on a plane ride home knowing you’ve just surfed 15 or 20-foot barrels."
"Mastery is a journey, and every time I ride big waves, I’m learning something new about myself and the ocean."
"Big wave surfing isn’t just about dropping into waves; it’s about the commitment to prepare, train, and show up no matter how hard it gets."
Karl discussed how being prepared is the number one key to surfing big waves.
Karl shared his experience of getting towed into a wave at Ship's Dunes naked when Kelly Slater was there.
Karl talked about his early fear of surfing big waves and how peer pressure and the surfing community helped him overcome that fear.
Karl described his first experience surfing big waves at Ship's Dunes, where he got flogged and almost drowned before being towed into waves by Kobe Avedon.
Karl discussed the importance of breath training and working with Nan Baldwin to prepare for surfing big waves.
Karl emphasized the value of traveling and chasing swells to progress in big wave surfing.
Karl shared his experience of breaking his leg while surfing 4-foot waves at home and ignoring the signs that it wasn't his day.
Karl talked about the commitment and drive required to be a successful big wave surfer.
Karl discussed the importance of having the right equipment, including boards specifically designed for big waves.
Outline
Karl Atkins' Early Surfing Career
Karl Atkins is a big wave surfer from Sydney's Northern Beaches who started surfing at age 5 and competed in junior competitions, though they didn't achieve significant success.
Karl performed better in larger waves but struggled in smaller conditions.
They received a nomination for the top four and reached a final for a wave at Depot Bombia on the south coast, competing against surfers like Mark Matthews.
In 2009, Karl placed fourth in the Billabong XXL Ride of the Year competition.
Despite their early involvement in competitive surfing, Karl was initially quite fearful of big waves, often getting criticized by older surfers for bailing on their board or sitting far out to avoid getting caught inside.
Transition to Big Wave Surfing
Karl's transition to big wave surfing happened gradually as different swells came to Sydney, particularly at North Narrabeen where they lived, giving them more opportunities to surf larger waves.
Their first significant big wave experience was at Shipstern Bluff in Tasmania when they were 18 or 19 years old, which became a pivotal moment in their surfing career.
Karl went to Shipstern's after being informed about the swell by Timber Nathan, a big wave filmer, and despite having no jet ski support, they paddled out.
On their first wave, Karl went over the falls on a 10-foot wave, snapped their board in three pieces, and nearly drowned.
Later, Kobe Abberton lent Karl their tow board, and Ryan Hipwood towed them into a few big waves, igniting Karl's passion for big wave surfing despite the terrifying experience.
Chasing Swells and Preparation
Following their Shipstern's experience, Karl began chasing more swells, particularly with fellow surfer Dean Bowen, traveling to different locations to surf big waves while working as a landscaper to fund their trips.
Karl emphasizes that preparation is the number one key to surfing big waves, including mental and physical training, as well as having the right equipment.
They started doing specific breathing enhancement training, particularly with Nam Baldwin, finding it beneficial not only for big wave surfing but also for managing stress in everyday life.
Karl notes that consistency in training is crucial, as big swells can appear suddenly after long periods of smaller waves.
Surfing Preferences and Influences
Karl particularly enjoys surfing left-hand barrels, especially on their backhand, spending considerable time studying and emulating the styles of surfers like Andy and Bruce Irons, particularly their approach to backhand barrel riding.
They find it easier to get into late, deep barrels on their backhand compared to their forehand.
Some of their favorite waves include Shipstern Bluff, Teahupo'o in Tahiti, and various left-hand slabs on Australia's south coast, making multiple trips to these locations to continuously improve their skills in heavy, barreling waves.
Self-Awareness and Intuition in Surfing
Karl stresses the importance of self-awareness and listening to one's intuition when it comes to surfing big waves, recounting experiences where deciding not to chase certain swells due to a gut feeling later proved to be the right decision.
They admire surfers like Greg Long and Shane Dorian for their ability to assess conditions and sometimes pull back when they're not feeling it, even in high-stakes situations.
Karl emphasizes the need to balance overcoming fear with controlling excitement and 'froth,' noting that mistakes and injuries can happen when surfers ignore their instincts and push too hard.
Advice for Aspiring Big Wave Surfers
Karl's main advice for those wanting to improve their surfing, especially in big waves, is to focus on preparation, including being physically and mentally prepared, having the right equipment, and familiarizing themselves with the boards and conditions.
They recommend practicing with big wave boards even in smaller surf to get comfortable with their feel.
Karl also emphasizes the importance of consistency in training and maintaining overall health and fitness, as it benefits not just surfing but all aspects of life.
Transcription
Being prepared is definitely the number one key to Surfing big waves.
Welcome to the surf Mastery podcast We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Surfing better.
Pinched on me and I just got squished and compressed by the waves, snapped my leg in half.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the show. Today's guest is Carl Atkins a big wave Surfing from Sydney's Northern Beaches Carl started out as a junior competitor and then gave his competitive career in to just focus on chasing big waves and Surfing big waves Carl is most famous for a couple of things one being an entry and a fourth placing into the Billabong XXL Ride of the Year in 2009 and he was made famous a while ago for getting towed into a wave at Ship Dunes naked when Kelly Slater was there But this is a really cool interview Carl gives some really cool insights into his journey and how he's progressed his Surfing But what's really inspiring about Carl's journey is that he's done it all himself So he's not a sponsored big wave Surfing. He's just worked a full -time job Saved his money to chase swells around the world.
Michael Frampton
Without further ado Carl So you did okay in the in some junior comps and then.
Karl Attkins
I didn't really do okay. I didn't do that good in the junior series I just I did it for a while I used to kind of go, you know make a few rounds But yeah, never won or kind of got right up there or anything Usually did better when the waves were good When the waves were bigger or the waves were good I'd do alright, but when they were small I don't know. I just never really pulled together Yeah, I got a nomination once in the top four and got a final for a wave at Depot Bombia down the south coast Yeah, so like Slack of the year or what I think Mark Matthews won that year with Massive kind of one he backed or closed out one at the right.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and you got was it fourth in the XXL.
Karl Attkins
Yeah the year he won that so yeah, that was a school or someone special.
Michael Frampton
And you were telling me last time that there was You used to be scared of big waves like quite scared.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I was pretty like I guess from the ages of I guess you know 10 to 15 maybe 15 or so I guess I you know, I started Surfing from about 5, but then when you know started pushing it a little bit more Yeah, I used to be pretty terrified. I remember getting like pretty ragged on by the older guys for you know Bailing you bored on big waves or just when the Surfing big sitting so far out the back So you don't get caught inside but not catchy any and yeah, it's definitely a big fear of mine Was Surfing big waves?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, well at least you had there you obviously had the balls to pedal out in the first place.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I guess maybe I was a bit of peer pressure in the first place Well, yeah, I guess that's what all starts and what's so good about having a good mates around and Surfing in a bit of a Community, you know, you kind of see the older guys and you got your mates and you egg each other on and that's what kind Of drives you at the start I guess for most people.
Michael Frampton
Yeah So that's what kind of drove you to what face your fear and big waves.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it wasn't necessarily like to like prove myself or because I got bullied or teased about it or anything It really happened more naturally like I can't say there was a you know, I just started You know as different swells can't came at home just in Sydney like bigger and bigger swells like North I've where I live gets pretty good on the right swell So yeah, just getting more opportunities to do that. And then that just you know, I guess you just yeah push yourself each time But then eventually I just kind of few little things Switched over and then I started traveling a bit and chasing bigger swells.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, when was your first? Actual big wave.
Karl Attkins
First a proper big wave was when I went down to Shipstone. Yes, I think that was 2009 yes, I was 19 at the time 18 or 19 and Yeah, I just had seen this swell and then I got told about by Timber Nathan He's a big wave filmer as well And he said he was going down and I kind of made a few phone calls from people I kind of knew that had connections down there and everything and then just yeah got my stuff together And went down there and that was the first Big swell that I saw if the first, you know proper kind of Big surf that I saw was something different just even Surfing at your local.
Yeah, it's a pretty unique wave that Yeah, it was heavy.
Michael Frampton
One Yeah, not just we're not just talking big wave. We're talking heavy.
Karl Attkins
Yes It's a big slab.
Michael Frampton
The Slack, isn't it?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I guess it you know gets 15 or 20 foot I guess it handles out and But yeah, I guess it's just heavy comes from far away and hits this big Slack and everyone knows about that That's depth that hits in the middle of it. So Yeah, it's pretty special way, but that's definitely what started it for me I remember just like that was the first time I'd seen proper big waves and the first time I rode You know proper big waves and big barrels as I paddled to start and just got so floored because I kind of just didn't have choice I said I was gonna paddle and went down it didn't have ski or anything like that So I just got out there and gave it a go in the first wave I got so flogged on I went over the falls on that's probably about 10 foot or so maybe bigger And snap my board in three pieces and almost drowned And then got you have got back on the boat and then Kobe Avedon and Ryan hit wood And those guys were all towing and yeah after a couple hours of that Kobe Avedon Let me he's tow board and got hippo to tow me into a few big waves and yeah I got you know, there's good day as a consistent day and yeah, he photo me.
Michael Frampton
Well. And was it paddling towing both?
Karl Attkins
There's some pretty good waves So that was yeah, that was how it kind of happened down there.
Michael Frampton
So it was that real this obviously a kind of a sense of community on that boat after you'd you know It's that you're bored and had a nearly drowned What took you from that to then being able to you know, go back out there and tow into one I.
Karl Attkins
Guess was probably Yeah, I guess it was just probably they saw a skinny blonde -haired guy just having a go And you're down the you know bottom of Tasmania down there and you know, those guys are pretty cool They had to have a I guess there is a big wave community and those guys all kind of travel together and Tell each other in and everything and that was very new to it the first time But you know, they love seeing people have a go and just getting out there and doing it and Yeah, Kobe was really nice in that way where he was kind of, you know Get a pat on the back of that said I would paddle in and I did it and got flogged and then he said Okay Times up, but you know get grab the tow board and you can go out there and I never in ridden a tow board before In my life, so yeah, that's how it that's how that happened. So yeah, it was pretty cool You know some it was nice of those guys to do that for me.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so that sounds like it was a Changing like a pivotal moment and you're Surfing.
Karl Attkins
Yeah for sure. Yeah, I didn't really after that I kind of you know got met Dean Bowen a bit better on there he was down on that trip with Kobe and those guys and Yeah, then Dana said you gotta you know Come down to where I live there some good waves and then I started doing that a bit more and chasing soils with Dean and Going down to where he lives and getting some good waves.
So yeah, definitely that was the main Starting point for Surfing and chasing big waves.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and how far outside Your comfort zone was that day?
Karl Attkins
Everything I was so terrified. It was yeah Completely out of my comfort zone.
Yeah, like I said, I never really seen or experienced anything like that at the time But yeah looking back on it, I guess it you know, it was terrifying and I was So fearful the whole time, but I guess is this that you know Something inside you that just drives you to keep going and you know, give it a crack and things worked out for me So that's why I just kind of kept going from there.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and what is that something that keeps you going?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it's a good question I guess at the start I was definitely just you know I just wanted to experience more in the ocean In a chasing the pro junior series and doing that and Surfing small waves and everything You know glad I did it, but I wish I stopped earlier and started chasing swells but yeah, just that I guess that the experience and the adventure that happens when you chase big swells and that rush that You get and you know overcoming your fears and you know sitting on that plane ride home knowing that you know you just got some 15 or 20 foot barrels and You know, it's pretty amazing feeling just you know getting out of your hometown and going it going out to the Bit of unknown and you know achieving Surfing a giant wave like that's a pretty good feeling.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I guess part of it is just backing yourself in the moment like feeling the fear and just I guess Kobe and Hippo that were there they sort of gave you that confidence to overcome the fear and go back out again or.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, at a point but when I forgot this little bit at the start I was at the airport and I'm I was sitting there and Kobe said to me where you going? I said, I'm going to Shipstone and he said you got a jet ski and you're talking with us no, I'm just gonna paddle and he's kind of laughed in my face Which was you know a bit of a test for me at that time. God. What am I doing? I could be I've never met him before and he's just kind of like, you know He rolled his eyes and said good luck because he knew it was gonna be you know, 20 foot and pretty much unpalatable But yeah, you know then you know them saying you get out there and have a crack like I said They kind of you know, they get into that So they definitely like, you know gave me that opportunity to go out and get a few waves Yeah, but just I guess like yeah overcoming that fear that's inside you and you know You train for at the time. I was always pretty fit but you know later down the track Then I started getting more into training specifically for chasing big swells And then you know that all pays off as well being prepared is definitely the number one key to Surfing big waves Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah So it's just kind of that the love of surfing is what kind of and to challenge yourself and Surfing in the ocean Is that what drove you to overcome?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, things are things that started working out for me when I would go on these big swells as well I guess I was like parts of it was to Actually a huge part of it start was to you know I love Surfing big waves, but getting photos and being sponsored and trying to be a professional surfing as a young kid You know dream of mine to be a world champion even though you know It was did all the comps and you know had you know little successes here and there but you know then all of a sudden you go and The way it works now is that there is free Surfing and big wave surfers out there They can get paid to you know Get photos and just travel and not have to do competitions and that just Send up seemed a lot more natural for me Surfing big waves. It just seemed to work waves would come my way and I Just felt good and it felt you know, I felt like that's what I was meant to be doing at the time So it was a good transition from doing comps into Surfing big waves
Michael Frampton
So let me just how did you go from being? The 15 16 year old kid that was sitting way out the back at 8 foot North Ave to the guy who's paddling in When everyone else is towing at ship stones.
Karl Attkins
How long to answer because it really was just a sign of a subtle transition that happened but like I said, it was that first trip to ship stones and I just started I guess I just It was weird how the weather universe works or I just almost ended up there, you know I ended up there and then just thought you know I'm gonna give this a crack and then the way it just kind of worked and then all of a sudden I got And I you know, I just towed into 15 20 foot ship stones And then after that is when I got a bit more serious about it But it was just like, you know, it's definitely I remember Tim just said you should come down and have a crack You know some big waves down. There's a big bows yeah, but I can't pinpoint exactly how it changed from being terrified to doing it, but Yeah, I guess it was just you know, I just Did it you know, it's just having that fear It's like everything in life you have a fear but it doesn't mean that you can't do something or you shouldn't do something It's just to kind of embrace that and prepare yourself for whatever it is and go out and give it a go And that's just what I did.
You know, I still feel you know in the Avalon alone. There's so many Surfing that have Ten times better than me performance wise or anything, but I just went out and did it, you know I just went and booked those flights and Saw the swells and just started doing it Yeah, it's just a drive to get out and have a go at something a bit of adventure rather than just staying at home But Yeah, and just yeah, I guess it's known you can when it works the first couple of times and yet You know you have a crack and you know You have a few successes or a few big waves And you get flogged a couple of times as well and realize that you're okay from that and then you know Then you build and build into that And I'm not saying that I went from you know, I've been Completely terrified Like I said a really small way like in a medium -sized waves and then just next day when it's a big waves It's still you know from Surfing from five years old to building up and being terrified You know You're still out there because your mates are pushing you to do those things and you do still build up from when it you've Scared when it's six foot to them being scared when it's eight foot, you know So I guess it does take time wasn't something that happened directly like overnight.
Michael Frampton
So you kind of trusting that primal Surfing instinct? Rather than the fear.
Karl Attkins
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, what are some let some things that you learnt along that journey that a lot of people miss out on I?
Karl Attkins
Guess just yeah, like seeing what's out there and just experiencing some different waves different people as well, but just Yeah, just kind of getting out there and just seeing what's out there in the places it kind of took me and different things I think I honestly I surprised a lot of people which is in the local community or In the Surfing community and that's kind of what used to be so scared away So I had you end up doing that But like I said, I was just getting out there and doing it and it doesn't have to be like I'm saying It's not just for Surfing or whatever it is But just you know Just making that move or booking that flight or just signing up for whatever it is that you want to do and just you know Giving it a crack without looking back.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, getting outside your comfort zone.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I like that feeling of you know Being in that place of fear and then you know accomplishing, you know, what terrified you or no realizing? It's okay, you know all these things that we worry about, you know Work out.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
And now I'm interested to if we contrast that with your leg injury recently and Did you let's say at ship sterns you were ignoring the fear trusting your instincts What was different when you got injured like did you were you trusting your instincts? Were.
Karl Attkins
You yeah, it's different and what you just said that about like I wasn't I never ignored the fear It was more like you I guess somewhat in embrace the fear or feel that the fear is there But then kind of go and do it anyway, so it's not like shunning the fear out or saying that the fear, you know Isn't doesn't exist But yeah, just I guess with the like I broke my legs snapped my shin the tibia and fibula in 4 -foot Surfing and I think like for a lot of big wave surfers I was thinking of this not only a couple of days ago But guys like Greg long and Shane Dory and how they're so well prepared that you know They're definitely the two best big wave Surfing in the world but they do have like a intuition as well where I've seen and read and different things lately of them being in giant Surfing that they're trained for being ready for and realizing that it's kind of not their day and Pulling back a little bit or just when they weren't feeling it and for no other reason Then they just weren't feeling it not to say that they weren't prepared mentally and physically and have the right equipment and everything But I've just seen and you know, it's taken them a long time to get there as well And I've read interviews on that but you know, just having that intuition and knowing you can be so prepared you know physically mentally and with equipment and everything, but there's some days that just You just don't have it or you just not feeling it but just to have that consciousness to be aware of that The day that I broke my leg I was Like jumped out of work early I should have been at work and I kind of the waves were pumping and it was only that you know Four to five foot and but there was really good barrels at home and I You know raced home and I was in such a rush Raced home got my board got out there and I was paddling around like a bit of a madman Trying to get into waves and I kept stacking it was really fast and sucky and I went over the falls on one snapped the board I ran home got another board ran back out and I got out and I was exhausted and I wasn't feeling it now I look back. I know that there was that thing There's those, you know kind of signals telling me to calm down a little bit or just you know Take it easy and I had that I kind of just ignored it in the back of my head because I wanted that wave So bad, you know just to get a good four foot bow at home and then not so long after Having those thoughts all those feelings the next wave just didn't Four -foot wave I went to pull in and it pinched on me and I just got squished and compressed by the wave and yeah It's not my leg in half Yeah looking back on it as he is definitely, you know when you push things and rush them and it's not really Calculated and you just keep pushing and pushing because you want to do that is when you know, you make mistakes Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So that's a difference between Again, it's that difference between the fear and the instinct whereas it wasn't exactly big enough waves to be scared But your instincts were saying maybe this isn't your right, you know the right day for you Yeah, whereas it was the opposite and ship's turns the waves were huge and the fear was there but you didn't listen to the fear you listen to your instincts and Coincidence or whatever you want to call it, you know, Tim saying, you know calm and then Kobe obviously The boys down there respecting you to paddling in and then offering you the toe and it just kind of worked out but what I'm wondering is for folks to learn from Other surface mistakes and things they do right as well as you know, so we can all progress our Surfing is and You use I mean you said chain Dorian said the same thing as well, right?
Like some days just not your day and you have to realize that. - How do we recognize those? Those signals.
Yeah, how do we differentiate them from fear?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, no Kind of I guess you just having that intuition and that knowing and just listening to even those Thoughts that may come up and there's feelings that do come up inside of you Yeah, I think you know, you kind of just a knowing for me. It's a knowing I know that okay There's a fear going on here and I'm scared like there's not many big Surfing I don't have where there isn't fear and I'm not scared of what's about to happen But you feel good and you can do it anyway But then yeah, there's just those other times where You know when things aren't flowing and you don't you know, you don't need to force it all the time That's just kind of the message that I've kind of experienced from my leg Is that you know when you force things like so hard like that sometimes you need to sit back and you know It may even be in a Surfing just you know sitting back for a second and you know having a few breaths and just kind of Re -evaluating the situation that is going on I think a Surfing we froth with the excitement and we just want that wave so bad. It was for me for years that you know, you put everything behind you and you just Whatever it takes you just want to get that wave so bad But just having more control and being a bit more calculated in knowing You know knowing when's the right time to push it and knowing when's the right time to hold back Yeah, but I guess just little things of maybe even like how you're performing as well or you know You just not getting instead of pushing You know like I said to sit back and you know have a few breaths and see what's going on and you know, just kind of Re -evaluate the situation and it may just be for an hour to sit out or maybe just be that days not your day Yeah, I think that's something that a lot of Surfing including myself just Didn't recognize for so many years was that you know, not every day is gonna be a day you know you have those days where you're in flow and You know waves come to you and you can barely put a foot wrong and you can prepare yourself to get in those states But there's other times where it's just not your day.
Michael Frampton
And did that you mentioned that After your ship stood your first ship students trip that inspired you to do some more training for big waves What did that entail.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, well I'd Previously I'd done some breathing courses when I was up in Queensland actually and I did them in preparation really for my competitive Surfing and Actually after the first time I did one of these breathing courses I Went to Stradbroke Island the next day for the for one of the pro juniors and the Surfing was You know four to six foot, but I used to get you know There's a lot of fear and anxiety around competing as well even when it was small just if you know being in the water and you know making the right moves and You know getting through heats and just being in a heat was just in got you know Got a lot of stress build up for me and I got one of the best result I ever had in a pro junior was after doing this breathing course, so I was a bit You know obviously well that stuff really worked at what was that and I you know after a few months I hadn't done it I'd done it for maybe in a year or so after that But then after going down to Shipstern was then yeah, I kind of thought okay if I'm gonna do this You know I want to get back on to you know getting myself as fit as I can and doing this breathing enhancement training, and that's what I'm yeah I really started focusing on doing that because I thought you know obviously so for big waves. I was already pretty fit physically You know just from Surfing and you know other Physical training that you do but the breathing enhancement is definitely one of the key components you need for you know obviously to hold your breath under a big wave So yeah, that was a huge focus of mine once I started you know getting really into Surfing bigger waves was the breathing enhancement training yeah, Probably only you know like two sessions a week was what kind of the optimal training in the pool doing this specific breathing training that I do So yeah doing that like just consistency is definitely that the key I found to a lot of that training as well Yeah, and once you get you know through a winner as well once you do a bit of training And then on the good times when the swells back to back You know there's no better training than Surfing in big surf as well so if you get a few back -to -back swells, and you know get a few floggings and Everything that comes in a big wave session.
Michael Frampton
And how many hours a week would you? Did you dedicate to that initially?
Karl Attkins
That's That's the best training that you can do so.
Michael Frampton
And so it's pretty obvious to people listening that Doing breath training underwater training and stuff is going to help in big waves But you mentioned how it helped in Surfing smaller waves in competition How does the brew how does your breathing affect that aspect of.
Karl Attkins
Surfing? Yeah? It was just For to start for me. It was really quiet in my mind quiet in what was going on when I was sitting out there in a heat you know worried about you know? What I was looking like or what the other guys were doing who sponsored or who weren't or whatever was Having all the busyness that happened in my mind was focusing on that the breath for me really Helped me before a heat and during the heat when waiting for waves to then be out perform when I was you know that Bit of empty space in my mind. I could really just get to what I knew how to do And yeah, that just the preparation before you your heats as well the same thing You had just focusing on the breath one of the best things for me It was just that calming effect that it had to chill out those nerves And I think just for everyday life as well Not even Surfing you know the breath is such a powerful tool to stay calm Quiet and those thoughts that we all have And then you know that can help us come over there anxieties and the fears that we all face Yeah, that's right.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and it's the breath enhancement training from Nan Baldwin. Yeah.
Karl Attkins
That's the yeah That's the training that I've been doing for about 10 years now. I did my first session with no yeah, so yeah, and I started off here like I said just for mainly for competitive Surfing and then I started you know went back and Started doing it after I got started surfing a bit bigger waves and then just Yeah, back and forth over the years going up there and training myself down in Sydney.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Awesome Yeah, I mean I interviewed them a couple of podcast episodes ago and Inspired me to do the introductory course which I did which was amazing probably one of the best courses I've done Not just for a Surfing, but just as a I think anyone should do the course just for the way it affects your physiology and Is phenomenal it's mind -blowing let alone the benefits the obvious benefits for Surfing especially big waves but just the type the way you feel after that training session is It's indescribable really yeah, especially at the end when you do the mammalian dive reflex Activation thing wow that's the feeling of calm and your body after that is yeah You can't I've never come across so many doing yoga and thing you get close, but that underwater aspect Just Wow changes the game.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, that that programs really well set up now And it's you know there's no I'm and they've developed that over you know quite a few years and worked with some really good people So that yeah that course is amazing I love seeing everyone's faces after the course because most of them have never experienced such you know such deep Relaxation from doing that and you know and the thing is they forget a lot of them don't expect experience that stress as well That is at the start of the course But yeah like you said not just for surfers because whether it's a stress whether it's Surfing in a competition or surfing big waves But mainly day -to -day stresses that everyone faces in the business world or work or family or relationships Yeah, the breasts are very powerful thing that a lot of us kind of take for granted and forget about So yeah, it's amazing that course and what numbs Done with it. Yeah.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
It is I've died continue on with the training and then I went to Ulus and had a couple of big days there and Didn't really I was there a couple of months before I did the course and then I did the course and did a bit of practice and then went back and So I was able to gauge the difference quite easily because it was quite a unique wave and it was Got some good eight foot swells both times I was there and the I was so much more comfortable the second time around like Surfing the balmy by myself It was just fine Yeah rolled in by sets and just did the breathing stuff and knew I was coming up kept it safe pedal back out Reset the breath and back again. It was just yeah.
Yeah, so much more energy So in the past I probably would have in the same thing, but would have been flogged, you know I've caught a couple more sets and going in but I was able just to keep my energy levels calm and it was fine Yeah.
Karl Attkins
It's a different approach to you know Chucking on some rage against a machine and just jumping out there and putting your head down and doing it like that So yeah, like I said, it's just so good being prepared for any Surfing, but especially a big surf. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
What can you breathe can do both kind of it can deeply relax you or you can you know Get your breath up and certain ways of breathing to ramp you up as well. Yeah.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it's Yeah, it's a great course Yeah, Yeah No, he does like a lot of stress management and life coaching and he's getting into doing lots of corporate kind of gigs now where he's you know, helping people using the breath But you know doing different things on land and like I said to help me with deal with you know Day -to -day stresses that they you know all of us deal with Yeah, so I've been like I said, I've been working, you know doing training with now for about ten years now So yeah, I just want to get more and more into that and then I'm yeah, hopefully not too far away down the track I'll be able to work on an arm as a breathing enhancement trainer down in Sydney.
Michael Frampton
Now anyone listening I recommend that course Highly read it's just amazing. Yeah. And you're learning more stuff from them as well.
You know, he's doing different It's not just breathing that he does is it?
Cool. Awesome So what we need down here?
Karl Attkins
Yeah. Yeah, and it's good. It's a regular practice a consistent practice and you know, having someone there Is important.
So yeah, hopefully not too far away and Get into that. Yeah, Yeah, you know I've been feel I've been blessed, you know to have it, you know over the last ten years of my experience of Surfing Competitions and surfing big waves and I've had really good trainers like now That have come into my life and you know taught me a lot So I just you know I'd love to be how to give that back to you know other people as well and just you know help them how to you know, have a better life or you know, reach their goals and Surfing big waves if that's what they're after or Yeah, I'd love to get more into that yeah.
Michael Frampton
So you're inspired to do some coaching.
And obviously from having coaches like that in your life and just being in this community which is so rich with Surfing and the support of competitive surfing and Surfing progression You've just from living here. You've gained I think a Lot of people who live in areas like this take it for granted what you learn about Surfing and how that Can make you such a better surfer Whereas you contrast that someone like myself who was self -taught and didn't really You know have any mentors or anyone else at the beach at all where I was Surfing. It was all 100 % self -taught But I'm wondering whether obviously I learned, you know on the fly whereas you There's a saying you stand on the shoulders of Giants, you know Learn from the surfers that surf before us, but are there any lessons that you? Didn't learn from others that you had to learn yourself.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I guess you know, you're definitely right and saying that like where we live in Australia really But you know the east coast of Australia as well There's so many good surfers the quality of Surfing is, you know, probably the best of the world really So, yeah, you know just being pushed and driven and having you know coaches around and being able to you know Have board riders clubs at every beach to you know start and help you from such a young age is it's definitely a blessing. I guess the Surfing of the big waves and all of that was for me I guess, you know, I had people that helped me as I got into it more But like I said, it's just kind of you know getting out there and doing it. We don't get giant waves in Sydney Once a year if we're lucky once every few years, you know, we get a couple of big swells, but You know, you really just been in Sydney. You need to get out You need to go to Hawaii or even Western Australia or you know start getting out into those more extreme Places if you want to Surfing bigger waves, you can't really hang around Sydney and just wait for that Yeah, so, you know going to places like Hawaii, but you know see from a young age You know guys are doing it younger and younger now with sponsors and different things like that But for me it was hard as well because you know, you go rent cars and accommodation and everything So, you know traveling to chase big waves, you know, there's a lot comes with it as well But yeah, you know You can only get you get taught so much by people but just that experience and getting out there and doing it yourself is you know, yeah, definitely something that you just have to Figure out for yourself and go and do it if you don't have sponsors or people taking you directly there Which I never really had either I kind of you know Worked and paid for everything myself and all my swells that I chased I worked as a landscaper and you know had a really good boss that allowed me to you know Have that flexibility during winter to go and drop everything and just chase swells.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay So again travel again had a few surfers say how important traveling chasing waves is for your Surfing Stepping outside that comfort zone. Yeah.
Karl Attkins
Well, that's it Yeah, you know every time you go to Hawaii or you know Go to a big wave spot and come back and you know, so if big North are it's just like playful Yeah.
Michael Frampton
That's yeah, that's a thing Yeah You might be scared at eight foot North Ave and then you go Spend a couple of months in Hawaii and then all of a sudden you're Surfing a small wave board Yeah, I put North Ave and it's yeah, it's a cake Okay, so going that's staying on the theme of getting outside your comfort zone There must be a limit though Like obviously when your first trip to Shipstern was quite far outside your comfort zone But it wasn't so far That I mean it could have gone wrong right and you could have been put off big wave Surfing forever Yeah, that was how close to the edge of your comfort zone you were.
Karl Attkins
And everyone's real friendly as well You gotta work for it in Hawaii.
Michael Frampton
Yeah But you were lucky enough to have the right people there I guess to feel safe and the right equipment there that they and they helped you out But have you ever gone so far outside your comfort zone and said not? Like have you ever pulled up to a big wave spot and gone? I'm not ready for this.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it's a good question. I Have had those thoughts I've definitely had those thoughts where I've been there and thought what am I doing here? Probably maybe Tahiti I went for to Chopra for one, you know one of those really giant swells a couple years ago one of the biggest ones and I got to the airport and Well first I was on a plane and it was you know Mark Matthews and Laurie Towner and hippo and Dean Morrison and you know Richie Vasson a few other guys like all the big wave guys on one plane and then when we landed in Tahiti There was like lead and Dorian and then the plane from Brazil can play from America came was like every big wave Surfing in the world Was there so those thoughts, you know come into my mind then when I'm so what am I doing?
Yeah But Yeah, I guess it's you know, like I said before just knowing where your comfort zone stands and what you're prepared for as well I'm not saying to go and you know do your first breathing course and Jump on a plane and go to Tahiti or go to Ship turns. I Surfing, you know, like I said, I Surfing competitively for a long time So, you know build up gradually and you have to know your limits and know, you know your ability as well You can hold your breath for five minutes and for you the fittest man, you know going around but if your ability to Surfing Isn't up there, you know, you have to be aware of that and try you know You can judge that to see where you're at Yeah I wouldn't say I've had too many times where I've actually not Surfing but yeah There's definitely been times where I've had those feelings and thoughts but you know like I said before it's just trying to decipher like when When's the right time to pull back and if it's just waiting to assess it for a little bit if you're not feeling it Yeah, but it's just knowing your own ability and knowing when there is a time that you know, you should maybe wait Yeah, there's your like, you know I could surf and I'd you know, I'd been Surfing along a long time before I did it, you know in close to 15 years or so before I you know, really started Surfing big waves And you know guys getting younger and younger now and the talent is amazing now I just judged it on Barton Lynch's comp for the last few days at Whale Beach and there It's like under sixes and under eights under tens and some of the you know Technique and styles of these kids is amazing and even these young kids pulling into these barrels and everything It's you know, it's pretty amazing these days what they're doing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so all that experience and small waves helped you big wave game.
Karl Attkins
But yeah, it's just you know knowing one's ability and When you know you're capable of doing it or when it's when you know when to pull back and yeah It's definitely important because you know big waves are dangerous and you know, you only get so many chances as well Yeah, definitely something you have to be careful. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so self -awareness. It's a big one.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
Yeah for sure I think yeah, it's been a huge thing for me. You know, there's actually been flights and you said would like rocking up to swells and not Surfing but there's been times where I've almost gone on swells then I haven't and Because I've had that feeling inside me There was one time to go to Hawaii actually to go to Jaws and I was gonna I was ready to go and I was so -called actually on the phone a flight attendant about to go the next day and I Just you know I had just so many signs in me just telling me not to go and I was always like that booking flights and doing things Like just trying to decide, you know to spend the money to commit to it to all of that. But Yeah, knowing that as well. I guess was just having that listening to those signals So there was that yeah one time actually, right I you know decided not to go and then not long a few days after it was I remember everyone saying well that was one of the most dangerous swells there was and people got hurt and the Winds were wrong and you know, I was yeah counting my blessings for that one.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, was it a similar feeling you had? Moments before you broke your leg.
Karl Attkins
Before my leg was I just had signals signs coming in just saying Slow down pretty much that I just ignored and put behind me and just kept paddling and you know Just put my head down to try and get it was a really heavy day with you know Bowels everywhere and it was just that over excitement that over froth where I was just you know Not in flow and not in rhythm and I just kept pushing it was a forceful Yeah, so Kind of similar but not really I guess it was yeah, there was a more just like okay slow down Yeah, but like you said, it's so tricky at the time, you know to decide what are those thoughts and feelings that you should listen to if they're fear that you need to overcome or there You know, they're the reasonable sign saying, okay Take a step back and maybe this was not for you or this day is not for you But as Surfing, it's not many of us can say that we've you know, we've done that But that's why I do respect guys like Greg long and Dorian Shane Dorian because I've you know Read in different stories lately where they've been at swells and they're you know Not completely feeling it and I think it was the final of that big wave comp at jaws maybe I think it was Dorian and he And he got probably the biggest waves of the day in the semis and heats leading up to it But in the final, you know, he was tired and he was a bit worn out and I don't think you Didn't really catch too many waves and he said that but I think that kind of you know Takes it, you know a lot of a man to be able to say that and as a Surfing as well just to Have the consciousness to go. Okay, you know, maybe this isn't for me and you know, wait for the next one But you know a lot of guys out there You know, they're not even gonna catch when those thoughts or feelings come up for them they just put their head down and go and that's when Mistakes and injuries can happen I Think mark Matthews as well That much about it, but that July wave that he got is like one that I can one the biggest jaws wave You know ever paddled into but you know a lot of the questions and people ask him Would you do it again or everything? He's you know So there's no way like, you know He just had to get in on a wave and he was you know Probably like that same thing that froth and excitement and wanting to get away before the comp started and you know He got one of the biggest waves, you know paddled into a jaws, but then, you know, it's pretty mad of action So, you know six months with you know, blowing his shoulder apart Yeah, so it's just a fine line of you know, overcoming the fear and you know Controlling the froth and excitement that us as Surfing have yeah, guess yeah an intuition.
Michael Frampton
You're trying to differentiate fear from Instinct I Yeah, it's such a fine line sometimes. Yeah Because a lot of it will come with experience.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
I suppose. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, you know, it's I'm not saying that still I do it perfect every time. It's just something I work towards and you know, it's kind of Try to be more aware of Yeah, you know like I keep saying with Greg long and doing know those guys are you know? 40 years old or something and they're still progressing and still learning and you know that they're kind of you know Coming out and saying that a bit now, you know, they know when to pull back and when to go and those guys, you know, so if the biggest waves in the world, yeah I Did for a little while actually when I first started getting guns I'm a yes, I think it was Tom Cale maybe or I think it was TC and he kind of said, you know The best way to get used to you guns is you know, because you don't have that many opportunities especially in Sydney Is to start riding them when the waves are smaller just to get a feel for how they paddle and just standing up on it Yeah, because you know just get a gun and then out and 10 -foot Surfing or whatever.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, do you spend much time on your gun outside of big waves?
Karl Attkins
It isn't riding it It's all first -time experience. So Yeah, that was something I've actually always remembered was just yeah him mentioning that before went to Hawaii once I just get out on your guns and just start riding them, you know Just out in small Surfing just to get a feel for them and you know, get you get your feet in the wax Yeah, that's a tip that I definitely recommend for people You know just to get a feel for those boards before you out there for the first time in a big swirl at least you know got a bit of wax on it and Feel for it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah negotiating a big board like that on a two -foot wave It's kind of sometimes what you have to do on a 10 -foot wave because the chop can be almost that big Yeah, and right you actually you might be on a 10 -foot wave, but you're kind of riding a line of chop That's one foot from the wind or whatever.
So.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, definitely. It's definitely an art to it I've got like so much still to learn but yeah, cuz I you know a lot of waves in Australia big waves That's labs. We you know, there's waves down the south coast that you know When it's you know gets Biggest six -foot you can't paddle into them.
So, you know, I did a lot of towing when you know when towing was cool but no when Yes, I you know, I wrote a lot of big waves on smaller boards But then as I started, you know riding bigger boards and everything at you know this one time actually I was Surfing down there and it was a bit of a shock because I was you know Just trying to negotiate the board on those bigger waves Definitely an art to it the way the boards are shaped these days There's some amazing boards out there and running quads and everything But yeah, I think it definitely helps just to get a feel for those guns in smaller waves before you get out there and the big Stuff. Yeah, I'm not too much longboarding.
Michael Frampton
Have you written you've done much longboarding?
Karl Attkins
I just say every now and then when it's real small But yeah, I never really have done too much longboarding too much serious longboarding Yeah, but I think that I've seen guys, you know that the do ride longboards and then ride guns and they're Yeah, they're definitely, you know, I think that would help too.
Michael Frampton
Yeah kind of similar weight.
Karl Attkins
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, but saying there's really no the real big waves guys are riding big boards, but you know You watch a lot of the guys now as well and Ryan smaller and smaller boards, you know Places like chokes and things like that. You just need a you know Sometimes it just needs to be a bit thicker under your chest to paddle into them But you don't want it too long so you can you know get up under and some of the you know, there's Hawaiian guys and You know paddling into chokes, you know getting right under the lip. There's definitely not to that as well So it depends if it's a big Slack or to you know, big balmy or just kind of have to be ready for everything And have a good quiver.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, when was your first trip to chokes?
Karl Attkins
I Went there probably four or five years ago. I've done like three trips there now.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely one of my favorite waves Yeah, such a good wave. It's just so perfect and so heavy and so intense.
Yeah, so Yeah, it's probably about four or five years ago. So yeah paddling that spot is just you know That's definitely one of the best spots that I've been to and love going to Yeah, just the barrels it's such an intense wave there You get so flogged and you have to you know be on your game there to see you know when it starts getting big.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
I mean you obviously spent some time at the Slack here in Preparation for ship stones, but did you ride any left -hand slabs before you went to chokes?
Karl Attkins
Yeah down it down the south coast is there a lot of left -hand points down left hand slabs that Down there and I was tying with Dean Bowen a bit and he's a goofy footer and loves his left. So yeah, I'd say I'm probably Yeah, I'm better on left Bowels and I am on right bowels.
Yeah, that seems to be You know the area where I live and where areas close to me seems to be more left -hand bowels Then I'm the right hand ones.
Michael Frampton
Did you find it harder to learn to get barreled on your backhand than you did on your forehand?
Karl Attkins
Yeah for sure. I You know, it's I think it's a you know, it's for a lot of most of us it pig -dogging and getting into left bowels seems You know, I'm unnatural and it's you know pig -dogging I think it's probably the one of the hardest things in Surfing that you know that as a that Yeah, people struggle to get a grasp of but yeah I used to just I remember I used to watch like Andy Irons and Bruce Irons Loved how they pig -dog barrels at pipe and they just had the cool styles and I always wanted to be able to do that So I remember like for years even just at home when there was good right -handers or whatever I just go left on every opportunity I can just pull in the clothes outs is trying to grab my rail and just work that technique Yeah, that is by far that my favorite thing to do in Surfing is, you know left Slack left pig -dog barrels Yeah, I think those guys You know those guys are so good at it and just have a you know Really good styles and just them out pipe and them out Tahiti for me just you know Watching their old movies was something they definitely inspired me to be able to do what they do.
Michael Frampton
So you did a lot of watching the irons brothers, yeah.
Karl Attkins
Yeah I spent a lot of time when I was young actually Yeah, just trying to you know, figure out where they grab the rail and you know The way their shoulders point and just the direction that sends them out Yes, I used to spend a lot of time watching those guys.
Michael Frampton
How much time did you spend watching them?
Yeah, what's a lot of time like hours a day.
Karl Attkins
I Wouldn't I guess probably how I was young probably what you still watch the movie a day when you're young Yeah, get up early and watch it before the Sun comes up watch it night and on the weekends with your mates Yeah Maybe one a day when you when you're a full grummy Yeah, I don't watch as much surf Surfing as I used to Yeah But.
Michael Frampton
Obviously that was a time in your life where you really wanted to get better at one particular aspect of Surfing Yeah.
Karl Attkins
That's probably why I put the most focus for myself in Surfing to Perform in a certain way that from just thinking back would definitely be the most amount of time I'd put into was and focus on watching things in like with you know doing turns or anything I didn't really like, you know focus too much on that But the one point that I would have you know Like I just said was watching videos of those guys and you know going left close outs when there was good rights just to get Good if that was something that I focused on Yeah, and I think that paid off a lot.
Michael Frampton
And what back when you first started right really Being a little bit obsessed with backhand tube riding was what percentage of waves would you make?
Karl Attkins
Not very many. I could like I said, I should have pulling a close out so that would come through but yeah I just found it an awkward Position to be and it was just you know, it's just hard figuring out Once I started to get the hang of it and you know where to position yourself a bit better and you know ways to make it out of bowels on your backhand Yeah, I think the feeling and sensation of kind of, you know, dropping into a sucky Backhand barrel is just like one of my favorite things to do and I think like sometimes for me It's just it's actually easier because you can like dig your rail in a little bit more on your backhand and get into a bit later and because you kind of you know holding on with your rail and you can dig it in on your forehand You know when you know, you're not holding on you really just have to like have that balance to get you your rail in to Get in really late Yes for me. I just found I think it's easier to get late and deeper on you on your backhand that it is on Your forehand, Yeah.
Michael Frampton
But you can only say that because you went through that time of you know focusing on it.
Karl Attkins
Yeah So, yeah, that's true so Yeah, Yeah.
Michael Frampton
All those hours It's worthwhile. Because now yeah, I mean it's a skill you probably never lose.
Karl Attkins
No, it's like yes something I still Yeah, I still just love doing the most if anyone was asking what's my favorite thing to do in Surfing? That's it hands down left but not everyone's the same, you know, it makes it I guess Love going to rights and maybe it's because I don't know They're not as good as big dog, you know, they Surfing more rights or it's where you grow up or waves you know What waves you like but when I started you're going down south and Surfing lots of left slabs and then go to Tahiti and then go to Fiji and Good Nalu and Western Australia. They're all left slabs So I guess it all just kind of led me that way and focused on it to get better at it You know, there's some winters. I look I haven't gone right for ages But you know, maybe guys on the Goldie and Surfing snapper all the time and live up there They probably say otherwise where they don't go left for a very long time Probably saying guys like Parker. He's really good on Left, you know, he's one of the top guys for sure left big dog barrels.
Michael Frampton
Did you find that getting better at left -hand barrels? Made you a better Surfing overall.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, that's just like having that option in the Ability that you know, you've worked on to be able to go left Or.
Michael Frampton
More specifically like this. Do you think getting better at backhand barrels? Made you better at doing forehand cutbacks.
Karl Attkins
No, I just got me better at big doggy laughs Yeah.
Michael Frampton
What about being more? Being more Surfing more critically in the pocket on a left -hander. Do you feel more comfortable?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, maybe take maybe like just even for like takeoff if it's not necessarily barley maybe just being able to like swoop into the left a bit better and knowing you can like trying to trust your rail a Bit and you know get those takeoffs to get yourself in better positions Yeah, it's a help for that.
Michael Frampton
And was it the trips down south that inspired the back end? Stuff or was it the Tahiti.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, everything but I definitely say that Andy and Bruce I and just watching there was just saying I just you know Just something that I liked about their styles and the way they rode Backhand barrels. I thought it just looked really stylish and you know I said those two of them for me at the time with the best at it So I just really I just like the look of it and then when you know start doing it as well I just think I like the feel of it as well It just feels good to be in that position and maybe just because it was really difficult or something that I would found I wasn't very good at so then you know Like I said when you overcome that or accomplish something that you're not so good at You know and it pays off and feels pretty good once you kind of master it not that I've mastered it.
Michael Frampton
Mastery is a journey. Yeah What about hanging out? Obviously you've had the chance to hang out with a lot of Top level and especially big wave Surfing Do you what do you is there anything you notice about those people that are different to other Surfing?
Karl Attkins
I guess I obviously their commitment So a huge thing just to be a lot of big wave guys. Obviously have to have that commitment I know I notice as well I maybe a lot of them, you know, they just have that love of big waves the guys that Surfing really good Ten times better than me, but they're just not into big waves and you know We're all different and you know to some a lot of them would admit it some won't but some just you know They're just not that into it But yeah, some of the big wave guys like, you know, not all of them Surfing great in small waves and a lot of them I guess they yeah, they have that drive for big waves and You know, they maybe Surfing in small waves, you know They don't have that ability or that skill to surf really well in small waves, so, you know, they get it out of Surfing big waves Yeah, I think that that's definitely something I noticed and not to say everyone I know a lot of big wave guys Surfing really good in small waves, but there is a you know majority of the bigger wave surfers that you know, maybe just because they love it They just love Surfing bigger waves or like me It just small waves didn't necessarily work for them and when they Surfing big waves things worked. That's what happened for me So yeah, definitely a bit of a trend there. I'd say yeah Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Committed not just to each wave but to the cause. Yeah.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, definitely that, you know Drop everything and you know when they're out there, they're just like, you know, they just want it That's so bad and you know do anything they can to get those waves Yeah, and commitment, you know to preparing for it as well and I guess it's you know Maybe some people couldn't be bothered to you know, jump on a plane and you know Fly five hours and then drive 24 hours or something to get up to Nalu or something like that But you know having that commitment or just being you know Knowing that it's possible and you're gonna get a bit tired and you know, you can make things work if you know Just keep at it Yeah, just having that drive behind you as well, you know every most big wave Surfing you need that Because you know, you're gonna have to work pretty hard to get there Especially if you live in Sydney. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
What percentage of trips? Are unsuccessful You've been on a few where you get there, yeah, this well just didn't have didn't happen There's been a.
Karl Attkins
Couple like luckily more closer ones down the south coast There's been a couple but we're so lucky these days with the swell forecasting. It's yeah, you know so accurate really We're lucky because yeah, this swell forecasting and weather maps are so accurate and flights You know can get pretty cheap flights the next day out of places All that freedom is there so you know, but it does happen.
Yeah, I haven't I've been pretty lucky. I've been pretty lucky. There's been times but yeah, I haven't done any mass Tahiti or Fiji or anything? I've always kind of scored when I've done that You know, maybe guys that do it more often, but you know, if you can know what you're looking for Yeah, kind of play cards, right? It's you know Pretty accessible and easy these days to get what you want Yeah, it's just maybe You know, but the same saying that you know, there has been a couple of times, you know Going down south and it's just not what it is But maybe certain waves as well with directions and things can change or just different storms that are unpredictable not knowing what they're doing, but Yeah, we're pretty lucky these days to be accurate on the money with them.
Michael Frampton
Yeah And back on to the Surfing movie. What's your favorite? Do you have a favorite Surfing movie?
Karl Attkins
Movie I Haven't watched like a surf movie in so long was my favorite one growing up. I Used to watch loose change a lot.
Yeah, I really old ones Yeah, I love watching that Trilogy is sick with Andy Irons and Rasta Paco Paco Yeah My favorite surfboard is this eight.
Michael Frampton
Taj and India. Yeah, it's one of my favorites too.
What's your favorite surfboard?
Karl Attkins
I've got from a do wheeler and I've only written it once and it was at cloud break and it was 10 15 foot and Yeah, I've just probably one of the better Surfing I had in my life with not too many guys out and the board just went so good And that was I think a little bit before I broke my leg. So that's my favorite board at the moment I've only written it once but I look so good and feel so good That's my favorite board Yeah, I do I used to listen a lot of like I said before like reading rage against a machine and like heavy music like that to get me pumped But now I don't do it like that.
Michael Frampton
Do you listen to music before you.
Karl Attkins
I listened to way more calming music to just get myself in Yeah, you kind of a better headspace Yeah for sure I used to when I was a lot younger I listen to rage against machine Pumping go out and do that. But yeah, just kind of listening away cruising music just gets me more in a better headspace Yeah right now.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, you have a favorite Surfing.
Karl Attkins
Varies all the time like depends what I say like depends what clip I say of them or different things I have you know, probably said a lot of different guys my favorite at different times, but big wave guys. I love Greg long I think he's the man. I like what he's about and just I've actually never met him But he just seems like a really like well -natured just solid dude, and you know loves Surfing big waves But yeah, I really like what he's about Yes, he's pretty up there cool.
Michael Frampton
Any advice for People out there that want to get better at Surfing closing words Closing.
Karl Attkins
Words for it's for surfing big waves Preparation separation number one key for that Yeah, like anything if you just be prepared mentally physically and with your equipment and everything it's you know Gonna help out a lot. I've done it unprepared. I've done it prepared and being prepared is so good You know things are always going to change but if you can get yourself in the best possible Position with the way you feel and the equipment that you have and everything that you can control It's gonna make you know the experience a whole lot better.
Michael Frampton
Yeah so preparation when you say boards We're not talking about just having the right boards But like you said before having actually written those boards as well know what they how they peddle be it in small waves or?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've you know, I've I went to ship sir the last time I went to ship stones I was so unprepared. It was towards the end of winter I snapped all my boards and I on the way to the airport. I stopped off at the factory to get a board and I just saw this like six to kind of like semi like you know big fish type thing had a bit of like a bit of thickness in the rails and I thought this book would go good and It was a yeah the worst decision aboard like just was not made for that way Yeah, I suffered, you know severely because of that choice But then, you know being prepared and having boards, you know for going a cloud break that you know the 88 that I said You know just knowing that that's what it's made for Just gives you so much more confidence and you know, the opportunities don't come around that often.
So You know You want to make sure that you're ready for it and not be wishing you had another board when you know We're in a long way for a swell or you know It's finally that swells come at home and you know, you don't have the right boards for Yeah, huge part and.
Michael Frampton
It's that thing like being prepared and we look at the body and your fitness and for big waves And like you said the opportunities to Surfing those big waves don't come around all that often. What keeps you focused? What keeps you driven and motivated to stay prepared for those opportunities.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, good question because you know something it's not like you have a competition set on a certain date that you know Okay, I have to be prepared for that you Know you just have to Be kind of all of a sudden as well There won't be a swell for you know a month or more and then all of a sudden a big one kind of you know Comes around the corner and you're gonna go to figure it out But yeah, just that consistency within the training, but I just like feeling good so I like to be healthy all the time and You know, so that's just feeling good is what you know We're all after so I just do the best I can to be feeling good and be in a good state in my Mind and in my body and you know, it works well for everything else you face in life Not just for Surfing a big waves and then like I said, it's a really good feeling when you know You've done everything that you possibly can for the Surfing that you're having You know and the other way around you know had a big night on drink or whatever it has before which happens to a lot Of people and you know when I was younger, you know, I had lots of experiences like that as well Yeah, it's just been a good one for me to you know Always be feeling good in a good state through my body in my mind And then when the swells come, you know, you're ready to go and there's nothing better than that feeling Yeah, just preparation is definitely key and yeah Staying healthy and everything else and you know, it's gonna work when you're Surfing but it'll work for everything Else you do in your life as well.
Michael Frampton
So just always you just always prepared.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, Yeah, that's right.
Michael Frampton
Well Surfing is like everything else, right? More time you put in the more preparation the better you get.
Karl Attkins
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Awesome Well, thanks so much for your time car.
Karl Attkins
Thanks for having me.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. Thank you. Cheers.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery podcast again. I'm your host Michael Frampton Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews.
Karl Attkins
Please.
Michael Frampton
Share with your friends Check us out on Facebook at.
Michael Frampton
Surf Mastery surf and if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating That be awesome until next time keep Surfing.
018: RU HILL - Surf Coach and Founder of 'Surf Simply'
Dec 13, 2016
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Unlocking Surfing Mastery and Flow States with Ru Hill
Have you ever wondered how to master surfing while overcoming plateaus and fear, or how to turn every wave into an opportunity for flow and progression?
Surfing can feel elusive—many surfers plateau or rely on ambiguous advice like "feel the rhythm of the wave." In this episode, Ru Hill, founder of Surf Simply, breaks down the art and science of surfing mastery, offering actionable insights for surfers of all levels. Discover why breaking skills into clear, technical steps is the key to elevating your performance and finding flow on the waves.
Learn how to overcome fear and intimidation in the critical parts of the wave with proven drills and mental techniques.
Discover the importance of breaking down surfing into achievable, technical steps—like bottom turns to 12 o’clock and surfing to the targets—for sustained progression.
Find out how intentional practice, video coaching, and the right mindset can help you unlock new levels of enjoyment and mastery in your surfing.
Listen now to discover Ru Hill’s groundbreaking approach to improving your surfing, no matter your level or experience.
Ru Hill is originally from the U.K. where he worked teaching both conventional, entry-level surf lessons and also video coaching with young competitors. Ru’s vision was to create a scientifically informed coaching methodology which bridges the gap between the two extremes of beginner and competitor. In 2007 Ru moved to Nosara in Costa Rica, where he set up Surf Simply out of the back of his car. Ten years on Surf Simply has become a high-end coaching resort which books out a year in advance. As well as running the resort, Ru is now a keen water photographer and co-hosts the Surf Simply podcast with Surf Simply's coaching director, Harry Knight.
Ru is a very experienced surf coach and has a unique way of breaking things down. In this interview, Ru gives out plenty of original advice as well as a new perspective on some classic surf coaching tips. Great tips on; how to overcome fear, how to surf more critically, what 'flow' is, plus loads more, enjoy.
Notable Quote:
"Surfing mastery isn’t about vague feelings—it’s about breaking things down, practicing with intention, and understanding the mechanics. That’s where the magic happens."
"The better you get at surfing, the more fun it is."
"Don’t be precious with your waves—progress comes from experimenting, failing, and learning."
"Surfing is a sport, and if you approach it like one, you’ll improve faster—and that’s where the fun is."
"Mastery in surfing emerges when you focus on the small details, not just the big picture."
Ru explained how he got into surf coaching and developed a scientific approach to teaching surfing.
Ru discussed his methodology of teaching functional stances and board control before standing up, rather than focusing solely on standing up.
Ru emphasized the importance of not being precious with waves and practicing specific techniques repeatedly to improve.
Ru explained the concept of 'surfing to the targets' and bottom turning to 12 o'clock to maximize speed and flow.
Ru highlighted the importance of using specific language and avoiding ambiguous advice like 'feel the rhythm of the wave.'
Ru discussed the different levels of surf coaching, from entry-level to competitive, and the gap in coaching for intermediate surfers.
Ru shared his approach to helping surfers overcome fear and intimidation in the ocean through understanding wave mechanics and decision-making.
Ru talked about the types of surfers who benefit most from Surf Simply's coaching, ranging from intermediate to advanced but not elite competitive surfers.
Outline
Ru Hill's Background and Surf Simply's Evolution
Ru Hill is an experienced surf coach originally from the UK who started surfing at age 15-16 in Cornwall.
They began coaching at 18-19 to fund their surfing trips, eventually moving to Nosara, Costa Rica, in 2007.
Initially operating out of their car, Ru established Surf Simply, which evolved into a high-end coaching resort requiring bookings a year in advance.
Their approach to surf coaching is scientifically informed, bridging the gap between beginner lessons and competitive surfing.
Co-hosting the Surf Simply podcast, Ru has developed a comprehensive coaching methodology based on years of experience and data-driven analysis.
Coaching Philosophy and Methodology
Ru questions traditional teaching methods and uses data-driven techniques to determine effective coaching strategies.
They conducted extensive A/B testing during their early coaching years, teaching large numbers of students to gather data on what works best.
Ru identified a gap in the surfing industry between entry-level lessons and elite competitive coaching, inspiring the creation of Surf Simply.
They focus on teaching the mechanics of surfing rather than just standing up, introducing concepts like 'invisible buttons' on the board to control movement.
Ru emphasizes a 'functional stance' that allows surfers to quickly and powerfully control their boards, rather than just maintaining stability.
Key Concepts in Coaching Methodology
Ru teaches surfers to aim for specific points on the wave rather than just riding down the line, known as surfing to targets.
They encourage surfers to make more vertical turns with the concept of 12 o'clock bottom turns to improve performance.
Ru explains the difference between carving and trimming turning techniques and how they affect wave riding.
They introduce head snaps as a technique for generating torque in turns, though this is not considered foundational to overall surfing ability.
Ru describes rhythm and flow as emergent properties of good surfing technique rather than skills to be directly taught.
Addressing Fear in Surfing
Ru emphasizes understanding wave mechanics through underwater observation and breath-hold training.
They teach various safety techniques and decision-making processes for different ocean situations.
Ru stresses the importance of general fitness and preparation before intensive surf coaching.
Unique Coaching Experience at Surf Simply
Ru hosts 12 guests per week with a team of 9 coaches, allowing for personalized instruction.
The coaching program includes video analysis, in-water instruction, and classRum sessions.
Surf Simply caters to a wide range of surfers, from beginners to advanced shortboarders.
Ru emphasizes the importance of physical fitness and preparation before attending the resort.
They note that the average age of guests is 37, with many being professionals from tech industries seeking to improve their surfing.
Thoughts on Surfing and Coaching
Ru believes in demystifying surfing instruction by using clear, specific language rather than ambiguous advice.
They advocate for a balanced approach to surfing, combining technical training with enjoyment of the sport.
Ru discusses the '80-20 principle' in skill development, noting that significant improvement can be achieved with moderate effort.
They emphasize the importance of continuous learning and improvement in surfing, regardless of age or experience level.
Ru's favorite surfboard is a 5'8" Roundnose Fish by Lost.
Their favorite surf videos are 'South to Sian' and 'View from a Blue Moon.'
Ru's favorite surfer is John John Florence.
They prefer music by Aphex Twin (electronic music).
Transcription
The better you get at Surfing, the more fun it is. I'm really excited to teach surfing.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Surfing better.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the show. Thanks for tuning in. A little bit of housekeeping before we get to the interview. Firstly, I've had a lot of listener emails. Big thanks for the emails, guys. It really does help when you send in an email just saying you enjoy the show. That is awesome. It really does help me keep motivated to get these things out, knowing that there's people out there that are listening and appreciating. Having said that, I'm not gonna read any of them out on air. That's not really what the show is about. I want this to be more of an educational resource that's going to be timeless.
So please keep them coming in, because I do appreciate them, but I probably won't reply and I probably won't read them out online, but they are appreciated. Some of the emails have been in regards to the show notes, asking where they are. Now, the show notes are at surfmastery .com forward Slack podcast, and then you can just go to the particular show you're interested in and you'll see them there. Okay, into it. Today's guest is Ru Hill. Ru is originally from the UK, where he grew up Surfing and then became a surf coach. He's done your conventional entry -level surf lessons, as well as video coaching for competitors. Ru's vision was to create a scientifically informed coaching methodology that bridges the gap between the two extremes, the beginner and the competitor. And in 2007, Ru moved to Nosora in Costa Rica, where he set up Surfing simply out of the back of his car. 10 years later, surf simply is a high -end coaching resort, which needs to be booked a year in advance. As well as running the resort, Ru is a co -host on the Surfing simply podcast on iTunes and from their website. I urge you guys check that out. My audio on this interview was not great.
So I've done the best I can with making it sound less harsh, but please just bear with my audio. Ru's audio is perfect, it's nice and clear. And that's what it's about. It's about the guest, not myself.
So please just bear with that. And this was an awesome interview. I got a lot out of this. Ru is a very experienced Surfing coach who's worked with a very broad range of clients. And he's got a very logical, scientific sort of way of looking at Surfing coaching, which I love. I love, as a coach myself, I love that really breaking things down. And anyway, without further ado, enjoy. Tell us how you got into Surfing, Ru.
Ru Hill
So yeah, I came to it pretty late in life compared to a lot of the people that I'm sure you're working with as competitive surfers. I didn't start Surfing until I was 15 or 16. I grew up in Bristol and used to spend my summers down at the beach in Cornwall, where the main swell hits the UK. That's sort of the most consistent spot. And yeah, I finished school and I actually went to art college. And I decided that I was gonna take a year out and just move down to Cornwall and Surfing.
And then I did that for a summer. And I thought, I'm gonna go off and do a winter in Indo. That looks pretty fun.
So I did that and then I came back and I thought, I'm just scratching the surface here. I really need to get into it.
So I carried on doing that for a few years and I got into surf coaching when I was about 18 or 19 as a way of just funding my Indo trips and everything, I guess my whole career kind of like just blossomed from there really.
Michael Frampton
And what got you into Surfing coaching?
Ru Hill
As I say, originally it was just a way of kind of funding my trips. And it's kind of bizarre actually. I sort of, so this is slightly tangential, but I grew up in a very religious household. And as any of your listeners that have grown up in a similar environment probably do as well, you sort of get into the habit of like picking holes in things and seeing how robust ideas really are when you put them under scrutiny. And so when I came to Surfing coaching and I was just doing the standard entry level kind of lessons and I was kind of like, I wonder how solid these ways of teaching are.
Like I wonder how much real thought has got into it. Like I wonder if there's good data behind these kind of ideas that are being taught as if they're fact.
So I sort of started pulling at all the threads a little bit and I was really lucky because this was back in the 90s in the UK and this doesn't happen anymore. But at the time the Surfing school I was working at had a monopoly on what was a very popular beach. And so when I arrived at the Surfing school, there was 30 or 40 people a day and I think there was three instructors. And by the time I left nearly 10 years later on a busy day, there'd be 600 people coming through the Surfing school and there was 20 or 25 coaches. And I would get down to the water's edge in the morning with like my lunch on my back and I would do a lesson of 10 or 12 people.
And then I would stay down there when they walked up and the next 10 or 12 people would come down. And it was really like a machine, very different to what I do now. But it was actually a fantastic opportunity because it meant I could do A, B testing. I could just say, okay, I'm gonna teach 50 or 100 people to put their hand here and I'm gonna teach 50 people to put their hand here and I can start actually gathering data on what works and what doesn't work. And of course, there's so many uncontrollable variables in trying to do something like that. What the ocean's like, what the fitness of the people you're teaching is like, that you just have to have these huge numbers to just compensate for all the noise that's gonna be there in the data. And by doing that, I started to kind of tease out what was working and what wasn't working. And I guess the other thing that really kind of hit me during that time was I was doing some kids club coaching as well with some sort of more experienced Surfing who were riding short boards and turning off the top. And I spent a bit of time helping coach the British junior team as well. And it suddenly became really obvious to me that as I watched friends of mine who were Surfing coaches and I watched their careers evolve and they all wanted to go off and work with competitive Surfing at the highest level they could. And it became really obvious that there was just these two very different industries. There's this niche of performance Surfing coaching for competitors and elite level surfers.
And then there's this kind of entry level surf school, surf lessons, how to stand up on a board type stuff, which I'm sure everyone's very familiar with. And actually 99 % of Surfing fall in between those two extremes. And there's really nothing out there for them. And that was really where the idea for Surf Simile came from.
Michael Frampton
Did you receive surf coaching yourself? I mean, how did you progress your own Surfing?
Ru Hill
Well, I was fortunate enough to work with some, to spend a lot of long winters in Indo with some really talented Surfing. And they would do the sort of the giving of tips rather than the structured kind of formalized roadmap that we sort of work with now. And you know who else was a really big influence actually? Martin Dunn, who I think you've interviewed on the show. He was one of the only people around at the time that was sort of publicly making available some of his approach to Surfing, to surf coaching, sorry. And so I sort of looked at what he was doing and I thought, you know, okay, that's all like short borders surfing with more speed and power and flow.
And then, you know, I've got these people that I'm working with who've sort of just learned to stand up and catch unbroken waves. And like, how do we get these people from catching an unbroken wave and trimming down the line to the point where they're even ready to start thinking about, you know, compression through their bottom turn and getting really vertical to 12 o 'clock rather than, you know, 11 o 'clock or whatever.
You know, that big kind of disconnect gap. So yeah, I mean, I kind of approached it by just saying, all right, well, let's try and be a bit scientific about it.
So we'll take an idea, you know, a hypothesis, like for example, let's have the leading hand outside the heel rail rather than pointing towards the nose of the board, which is the way the sort of the conventional entry level Surfing lesson is done. You know, and then you kind of look at, well, you know, how plausible is the mechanism?
So you have this basic idea in science, which I really like, because I think it applies to life really well. So someone has an idea and if it's a really plausible idea, you don't need very much evidence to tell you that it's probably right. And if the idea is really implausible, then you need, you know, a huge amount of evidence to tell you that it's right. There's this old saying by Carl Sagan, you know, the guy who used to run NASA, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
So I kind of like took that and like plugged it into Surfing. Yeah, and just kind of rethought about how, and about how it could be approached. The first thing that was, I guess, a big shift is we stopped teaching people to stand up as the main goal.
So the first thing that we did was just to try and approach it differently right from the get go. So rather than teaching people to stand up, which is what everyone wants to do when they first come to Surfing, because it's this binary, very obvious thing that every lay person can see you're either failing or at or succeeding to do. We sort of got people to understand that Surfing is really just this game of trying to get your board as close to the whitewater as you can without getting your board stuck in the whitewater. And in order to play that game, you don't necessarily have to stand up.
I mean, you know, you can see knee boarders and body boarders actually doing that really well. So we teach people this idea of, okay, the board has these like invisible buttons on it. We sometimes call it secret buttons.
You know, the accelerator, the brake, the trim right, trim left, carve right, carve left buttons, and all kind of the nuances of the buttons in between those primary ones. And we'd get people while they're still laying down, like day one, you know, to move their weight around on the board and understand where all of these buttons are.
And then rather than getting them to stand up as sort of the end goal, we'd get them to stand up just because at a certain point laying down on the board, you can't press those buttons quickly enough and powerfully enough. So then they'd stand up into, you know, what we call the functional stance, which is a way of standing, which you see a lot of pro Surfing using. And rather than just being a stable way of riding in on a wave, it's a way of pressing all of those buttons quickly and powerfully. And yeah, and then we kind of like, we kind of take it forward from there. And it was really interesting because when we started Surfing Simile, we had a lot of entry level surfers coming along and we would get a lot of emails and people getting in touch saying, you know, my girlfriend or my boyfriend doesn't surf, I do, so I'm not having lessons, but they don't Surfing, so they need lessons.
You know, and we kind of had this thing like, well, you know, if you played golf, you wouldn't say, I don't need golf lessons because I already play golf or tennis, you know? And so why does that exist in Surfing?
You know, and I think the answer is that there really isn't very much coaching out there for the vast majority of Surfing, it's just kind of not available. So we had to sort of re -educate people and most of our guests come from the States. We get more and more from Australia and New Zealand now, but probably about 90 % of our guests come from the States. And trying to actually show them that, you know, okay, this is a value to you. That was about 10 years ago we started Surf Simile. And now 70 or 80 % of our guests have been Surfing for more than 10 years. And we still have entry -level people come along. And most of what we do is video coaching and we do a bit of in -water coaching as well, but most people are at that kind of level. And it's interesting because we now get booked up about, I think our next opening at the moment is October next year.
So we get booked up nearly a year in advance. And yeah, and as far as I know, I don't think anyone else is really kind of really doing this. But I mean, you're kind of more aware of the coaching scene that's out in Australia than I am.
So, you know, maybe it is happening and I'm just not aware of it. But it seems to be something that a lot of people, once they feel confident that they're gonna come along and actually get coaching, rather than just have a sort of very basic entry -level lesson, which really wasn't much used to them as someone who's been Surfing for five or 10 or 20 years. Once they feel confident that they're gonna get that, they're really excited to be able to receive it and to have new tools to sort of get away from that plateau that they've been sitting on and actually start moving forward again. Because, you know, the better you get at Surfing, the more fun it is. And the better you get at surfing, the wider range of conditions you can go out and have fun in.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think my Surfing has progressed more in the past 18 months than it has in the previous 12 years. Just from a handful of, you know, video coaching sessions. It's amazing.
Ru Hill
Yeah, and it's so fun as well, when you suddenly have new things to be able to go out and work on. I'll tell you just one little cool story.
So, I mean, this is quite an extreme example, but we have this really cool lady who comes and bakes muffins for us at Surf Simile. Her name's Lulu, and she's Hawaiian. And anyway, she's really got into Surfing in her 50s, and she's now 69. We just had her birthday party last night, actually. And yeah, she's improved so much between 64 and 69. It's made me really excited about the future.
You know, I always used to think that I was gonna just level off around in my late 20s, and that was it. So yeah, it's kind of cool to see.
Michael Frampton
What's the best Surfing advice you ever got?
Ru Hill
You know, that's a tough question. I mean, there's so many things, isn't there? I suppose the, I don't know if this is a specific piece of advice, because I can't remember when the light bulb moment was, and whether it was something specific someone said to me, or whether it was kind of an aggregate of several experiences and working with people. But, you know, I think the thing that made the biggest change for me, and I see impact the most of our guests, and really changed their Surfing, is when they get their head around the idea that you don't want to turn just by leaning on your heels and your toes.
I mean, of all of the things that we, as all of the things we teach, when you teach people how to carve rather than trim their turns, that's just, it's so great to watch someone's mind just get blown. So I'll just explain what I mean by that in a little more detail. This is a classic thing, this probably happens, you know, three or four people a week, this happens with. They'll come along, they've been Surfing for like 10 or 15 years, and they're doing all of the turns on their board by not really getting their weight back. They've got their back foot a little far forward, you know, maybe like, let's say they're riding a shortboard, their back foot's sort of near the front of the deck pad, their weight's fairly evenly on both feet, and they're leaning on their heels, you know, to turn onto their backside, their toes to turn onto their front side.
And then what's happening, we call that a trim turn, where your weight's not really going back. And then what's happening is the rocker of the board, as the board is put on its side, is making the board change direction. And of course, the shorter the board, the more rocker it has, then the more it'll change direction when you just lean on your heels or your toes, and that trim turn happens. But you hit this brick wall, you know, you can't turn more than 90 degrees doing that, the physics just don't work, quickly, I mean, you can turn very slowly.
So what people tend to do is they ride like a, you know, a bigger board when they wanna get their wave count up, when they're first sort of learning, and then when they wanna do more radical turns, tighter turns with a smaller turning arc, they'll ride a smaller and smaller board, and they're feeling like they're turning better, but they're still just doing those trim turns. And we take people and we put them back on a bigger board, so they've got more speed and they're getting into the wave earlier, and then we teach them about getting their weight right back, lifting the nose of the board up and carving round using the fins. And when people suddenly realize that they can do that, it just like blows their mind, because they've seen all of these carving turns off the top and cutbacks, and they've just not able to do them, because every time they lean too hard, they catch their rail and just fall off the board. And suddenly showing them like the doorway into be able to doing those kinds of turns is, yeah, it's really cool. And I think probably, you know, that was one of the things that made me suddenly really excited to teach Surfing, because I saw, when I had that realization, I was like, you know, this can be so much more fun with just a little bit of knowledge. And you can Surfing for so long without realizing that.
I mean, I'm sure that you've seen people Surfing for 10, 20, 30 years, that still really just go down the line and do all their turns in sort of less than a 90 degree change of direction. Can you think of anyone that you know that Surfing like that?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's pretty much most people really, isn't it? Yeah.
You know, if golf had the same, you know, thought process behind it, then everyone on the, no one on the golf course would have a single digit handicap. But, you know, most golfers get really involved in it, and they get lessons, and they get down to the single figure handicaps. And, you know, there's a lot of golfers with single figure handicaps. And I think there's far less surfers Surfing each wave to its potential, and to use your words, you know, close to the whitewash. And, you know, you really do need to start learning the way you put it, you know, carving turns.
Ru Hill
And it's interesting, and it's a big kind of cultural thing, I think, in Surfing. You know, it's funny when, well, so it's interesting comparing Australia to the US, because, you know, in Australia, there's still a big kind of like alternative lifestyle, cultural element to Surfing, but it's a lot more widely recognized as a sport than it is in the US, where it's very much seen still much more as a lifestyle, and as a sort of a, yeah, I mean, it's just not looked at as a mainstream sport in the same way that it is in Australia.
So there isn't that kind of coaching, like, you know, clubby kind of culture and ethos that people bring to it. And, you know, one thing that we say to our guests when they come along each week, and, you know, the way that we coach is just in the format of a week, rather than on an ongoing basis. And that's kind of an interesting thing to work with from a coaching point of view as well, which I'll chat about a little bit later. But when people arrive, you know, we say to them, look, we don't approach Surfing as a lifestyle. There's all of this cultural baggage that gets hung onto surfing, you know, political ideology, you know, what your job priorities should be, how you should be living, even, you know, what clothes you're wearing, or perhaps even what music you're listening to, and your types of opinions on what kind of food you're eating and, you know, all of this stuff kind of comes as a package. And we say to people, look, we're just gonna leave all that at the front door. We're gonna approach Surfing this week as a sport, just like you would any other sport. And if you leave this week with the drills and mechanisms in place to go on improving, then all of that cool stuff, all of the travel, all of the people you'll meet, all of those moments of sitting out in the ocean and being overwhelmed by the beauty of nature, you know, that's all gonna happen just on its own. Our goal is just to approach it as a sport because that way you're gonna get better quicker, and that's kind of where the fun is, you know.
So we've really tried to depart from the whole lifestyle thing. And it's funny because, you know, I spend a lot of time obviously going online and we do like a lot of photos for Instagram and little short videos and stuff to let people know what we do and what we're all about. And everyone else out there running a Surfing camp in the world is making such a big thing about it being a lifestyle. And we're like kind of, I feel like we're pulling in exactly the polar opposite direction to everyone else.
Michael Frampton
No, I like, I love that approach. Actually, looking at your tree of knowledge, and for the level four Surfing, you've got understanding contest criteria, and you talk about, you know, maximizing speed, power, and flow.
I mean, that's the criteria for contests. But if you have that approach in mind, it's the fastest way to progress is what you're saying here, which, you know, makes sense.
So you've got, you're looking at it from a sport, but it's completely relative. If you think Surfing is an art form or a lifestyle, it's still relevant.
Ru Hill
Yeah, and it's funny, actually, you know, we talk about, although in that kind of tree of knowledge, and just for your listeners that might not have seen it, the idea is that we put, obviously it's a massive oversimplification because you couldn't put all the Surfing skills in an infographic without it being completely overwhelming. But the idea is that you have, you know, the core Surfing skills in different colored bubbles. And when you can do any one of them, most of the time, not all the time, because you know, you can never have 100 % success rate, but you can move on to the next. And if you skip out some of those steps, you can keep going, but you'll always hit a brick wall unless you kind of go back and fill them in. And we've sort of split it up into four levels. The level one stuff is in the white water. The level two stuff is catching unbroken waves. The level three stuff is performing horizontal maneuvers.
So primarily cutbacks, roundhouse cutbacks, floaters, and pumping as well. And then level four is, you know, more like the sort of stuff that Martin Dunne is teaching, you know, vertical Surfing. And like you say, starting to surf more to the contest criteria with more speed and power and flow. But we introduced that contest criteria and talked to people about it right the way back when they're sort of first going out the back and catching waves. And, you know, I really think if you go out and you try and, you know, stand on your board and just look cool with your unbuttoned hipster shirt blowing in the wind going down the line, you might enjoy that one wave a lot more, but five or 10 or 20 years later, you haven't really improved that much. If you're constantly trying to Surfing to the critical part of the wave with better flow and more speed and more power, any one given wave, yeah, you're probably falling, you're more likely to fall off because you're trying to do stuff that you can't do. But, you know, the aggregate of those constant attempts over 10 or 20 years is that you're improving more. And, yeah, and that means you get all that much more joy out of it. And it's funny because the ironic thing for me is, and this is just, I'm only saying this because I think it's funny, not really because I have any problem with the whole concept of free Surfing. I think it's a wonderful thing. But I always think that the contest surfers are going out there and actually trying to surf with more speed, power and flow. They're trying to surf the wave better and get deeper in the barrel and do all this stuff. The sort of the free Surfing, they're actually going out and basically, as far as their job goes, they're trying to get their photo taken or trying to get good footage for a movie.
So while the free Surfing route is often sort of sold as the more soulful side, it's almost ironic, isn't it, that the contest surfers are actually trying to surf the wave better and the free soulful guys actually are trying to get their photo taken. And when you look at it like that, you've got to be like, well, which one is more soulful?
You know what I mean?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and the pro Surfing end up with the best free Surfing videos anyway.
Ru Hill
Yeah, I mean, how much are you looking forward to all the footage that's gonna be coming out from Taj now that he's off the tour and can do what he wants? Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and me personally, I think Surfing needs to be approached in both ways. I think to spend some of your time Surfing, really breaking things down and spending time working on just one thing for a surf and then when you do just decide to go out on a free Surfing, you have so much more fun.
Ru Hill
Yeah, and absolutely, that's a really important part of it as well. You know, the last few years, I've spent most of my time training coaches rather than coaching. And one of the big lessons that we teach them is when to stop coaching, when to just pick up on the emotional cues that people are a little overwhelmed and when you step back and when you suddenly change the conversation and you ask them about something totally unrelated to Surfing. Just so that they relax and switch off. Because it's definitely possible to overthink things as in all sports coaching, that's kind of a problem.
So yeah, going out and having just free Surfing and not thinking about it and just having fun is a really important part of it as well. I mean, that's when you kind of reap the rewards of the previous year's worth of drills and actually when people go away, one of the things we say to them is, you know, we hope you'll get some fun weeks while you're staying with us, obviously, but the real point is to give you the tools to take away and keep improving. And rather than just going for a Surfing and hoping you get better, you'll go in the water and have your watch on and be like, okay, for 20 minutes, I'm just gonna practice doing my carving turn.
And then for 20 minutes, I'm just gonna make sure that I'm keeping my hand in the right place when I come up to my feet. But then we're like, and then for 20 minutes, you're like, I'm not gonna think about anything. I'm just gonna be out here, just goofing around in the water and having fun. And that's such an important part of it too, I think.
Michael Frampton
For sure. Let's go back to your tree of knowledge because I think it's awesome. And I'll put a link to it in the show notes for those listening as well. But there's one thing you've got in your level four, which I like, and it's called Surfing to the targets. Could you explain and expand on that for us?
Ru Hill
Yeah. So that's another thing, which is like a bit of a light bulb moment, I think for a lot of people. And that actually came to me from watching a lot of the stuff that Martin Dunn was doing and then kind of, I guess, not moving it forward, but just building on it in a slightly different direction so that it was relevant for Surfing that weren't already kind of familiar with that idea of targets. But a lot of people just think about trying to Surfing down the line and make the wave, and that's kind of the goal.
And then they hit this point where, of course, if they're Surfing faster than the wave, then they're surfing out to the flats and losing speed. And if the wave is outrunning them, then they're getting stuck behind sections.
So you teach people how to do floaters to climb over sections that are breaking in front of them and how to do carving cutbacks to surf to cut back to the pocket and to do a roundhouse cutback and get speed from that pocket of the wave again that way. And Surfing to the targets is the idea that once you've got those two skills, the cutbacks and floaters in the bag, then you have to the problem of deciding what maneuver you should do at any point on the wave. And so we just have the simple idea that rather than Surfing down the line, you surf to the targets. And the targets are basically wherever the whitewater is breaking, wherever the lip of the wave is, wherever the critical part of the wave is.
You know, and when you think about a perfect, you know, Indo reef break, of course, the target would just be one target that's peeling behind you, the critical part of the wave. Actually, when you're Surfing beach breaks, usually there's multiple targets because we have different sections breaking.
And then every maneuver you do, just we're talking about, you know, when you're not Mick Fanning or Kelly Slater, your sort of average everyday Surfing going down the line trying to work on cutbacks and floaters and the occasional heading of the lip. Every maneuver you do should end with your, that target, the breaking part of the wave, hitting the board underneath where your front foot is. Because that's where you get that push of speed from.
You know, when you finish a round, when you finish a cutback and you finish it up at the top of the wave and you feel the lip hit underneath your board just at the end of the cutback, and it gives you that boost and you kind of go back off down the line with a ton of speed, versus when you miss the target and you end up getting a little stuck in the whitewater and kind of having to hop around the foam and get back onto the face again. So that's one example of it. Another example of a target, and this is the first time that we bring it in, is of course when someone's going down the line and the wave's closing out in front of them, so they have a closeout section coming towards them.
And then it doesn't involve such a big change of direction in order to go up and again have that bit of lip hit the board underneath that front foot and they feel that burst of speed as they then come racing down in front of the whitewater out onto the flats. And we kind of talk about how when you're doing a big carving turn and you're putting all of your weight at the back of the board, you're using up speed because you're digging the tail of the board in and lifting the nose up. And the idea is that when you're doing those turns, you're finishing each of those carving turns by hitting a target where you're regaining all of the speed that you just used up doing your turn. And of course, once you start Surfing to targets and linking each target together, that's what we think of as flow. Does that make sense? I'm describing it to you here, but I'm using my hands quite a lot while I'm talking, which is totally useless to all of our listeners.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no. I mean, you've got so many videos online, which I'll point people towards if they're interested to get that visual. But yeah, no, that's a great way to break it down. I like that analogy. What about, you've got, I'm sure a lot of this tree of knowledge is far more relevant for the guests staying, and maybe a little confusing for those that have never been to your resort. But what's a head snap?
Ru Hill
So when we're going through this, when our guests first arrive, we take them in and we kind of say to them, look, we've got this tree of knowledge and we have it up on the wall and it's about 12 or 15 feet high. And we say to them, look, go and look at it now. It's gonna look completely overwhelming. But as you're kind of weak and your coaching goes on, you're gonna start recognizing bits and going, we did that now, and then we're gonna do that next, and then we're gonna do that next. And this sort of path opens up in front of you. You can see where things are kind of leading to next.
So it kind of makes sense a lot more as part of the coaching program. When your listeners are looking at it, it's not really meant to be just seen completely independent of anything else, you know. But the head snaps up at the top, that's pretty much when you're coming up and you're doing a turn and you're really getting a lot of the torque in order to bring the board round by rotating your upper body very quickly, as opposed to by carving off your heel on your back foot. And if you look at that, like a lot of the other things on the tree of knowledge, some of them sit on the side and they don't lead on to anything else. And head snaps are one of those things. And it's kind of interesting because there are some things which you might not think are important, but are absolutely foundational to everything else you do.
I mean, you know, level four coaching, you know, your bottom turns is a really good example that you'll hear competitive level coaches talk about all the time. And then there's other things which, you know, everyone would like to be able to do because they look kind of cool, but they don't really lead onto anything. They're a little bit of a dead end. And you can see like a head snaps is kind of sitting on the side is kind of a fun thing to be able to do to have in your arsenal, but it doesn't lead onto anything. Does that make sense?
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool. What about bottom turns to 12 o 'clock?
Ru Hill
So again, that's just the idea that you're looking at the wave from the beach and 12 o 'clock is straight up, you know, like vertical. So a lot of people, you know, they get pretty good at bottom turns, but they bring their bottom turn up so that they're coming up sort of at 45 degrees to the wave face.
So if you imagine you're looking at the wave and it's a clock face, 12 o 'clock would be hitting the lip vertically, you know, and three o 'clock would be just pointing straight down the line. So, you know, most people, if you're coming up, you know, on the left, they'd be coming up at like one o 'clock or two o 'clock, something like that. And people don't really wanna come right up and try and bottom turn to 12 o 'clock because they're not good enough to do the top turn that will bring them back down into the wave again.
So, you know, what they logically think is look, when I go up right to 12 o 'clock, when I go up super vertical, I never make the wave. So I'm just, I'm not gonna do it. I'm just gonna like only bottom turn as much as I know that I'm gonna be able to come back round again.
So getting people to actually go, look, don't worry about making the wave, don't worry about your top turn. What we want is just a bottom turn where you go all the way through with tons of speed, come back up the wave, and we wanna freeze frame on the video camera from the beach of your board at 12 o 'clock pointing straight up through the lip of the wave. And once we've got that bottom turn really good, then we can start working on your top turn depending on what the wave's doing and the various ways that you're gonna turn the board back and come back round.
So that's like a classic, you know, level four coaching thing that we do with shortboarders all the time. And it actually kind of falls under a bigger umbrella, which is the biggest challenge for us as coaches, which is getting people to not be precious with their waves, which kind of goes back to that idea of trying to make the wave and Surfing down the line. And, you know, with any sport, when you learn something new, there's two steps to it. There's this first step, which is understanding how you do something and why you're gonna do it and what the body mechanics is. And you can even understand intellectually like what the timing is.
And then there's kind of trying to do it. And you're thinking about it. It's not in any way automated. And your brain really isn't actually fast enough to react quickly enough to really make most of it happen in time.
So, you know, most of the times you're trying it initially, whatever it is, whether it's, you know, doing an air or a snap off the top or whether it's kind of standing up on the board for the first time. And it all just feels like it's happening too quickly and it's all gonna go wrong. And of course, you know, if you stick with it, eventually it does become intuitive and that takes, you know, 200 reps, 400 reps, 1 ,000 reps. It depends what the thing is.
So, you know, teaching people what it is that they're supposed to practice, but then teaching them not to be so precious with the waves that they don't wanna keep with it. You know, people always wanna like shy away from the stuff that's gonna take 200 reps because they're like, you know, I could just Surfing down the line and that's pretty fun and that's gonna look cool. And teaching people the value in actually riding off a wave and kind of going for it. And actually it's funny that concept is so important and it's so critical to Surfing coaching. And I actually learned it from when I was at art college, bizarrely enough. Our art master in London would, he saw us everyone being very precious and, you know, like most artists kind of, I used to beat myself up about, you know, how good any given painting was. I was doing fine art painting at college. And so he used to make us tear up everything we did at the end of every day.
So we would, you know, spend all day working with whatever material it was and then everything would go in the trash at the end of the day and it's kind of heartbreaking, but it was the most liberating thing because you realize that nothing that you're doing is gonna last, so you're suddenly really free to kind of experiment with it. And sending people out, and this is true whether you're coaching or whether you're yourself and you're never gonna get any coaching and you're just, you know, listening to this podcast thinking I'm just gonna go out free Surfing. Just breaking your surfs up into like, okay, 20 minutes, I'm just gonna try doing a 12 o 'clock bottom turn, for example, and I don't care about making any waves. I'm not even expecting to make one. I'm gonna fall off every time.
And then your clock beeps on your wrist and then you're like, okay, now I'm done, I've practiced that, now I'm gonna Surfing down the line and just enjoy some long rides. And the value of segmenting parts of your Surfing off where you're not precious with your waves will just pay dividends years down the line.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I love that, you're on the money because, you know, a lot of the anxiety in Surfing comes from that, you know, that surfing the wave being such a rare and exclusive experience, we don't wanna, you know, we don't wanna mess it up, especially when others are looking. But to stay on that same kind of theme, Surfing to the targets and 12 o 'clock bottom turns, head snaps, it's all good and well to understand the technique and the theory behind it and then you overcome the next hurdle, was like, okay, I'm not gonna be precious with my waves. But there's another hurdle as well, which is just the fear of putting yourself right in that critical part of the wave. How do you help people overcome that?
Ru Hill
That's a really good question and actually, there's kind of two parts to that. I mean, one is just how do you coach people through being intimidated by anything they're dealing with in the water, whether it's the critical part of the wave, doing a maneuver, just being out in big Surfing.
And then the other part is to sort of talk about how you specifically get people over being worried about hitting the targets. So let me just talk about the second one first. Obviously, it's different for everyone and you need to work with someone and find out what is the limiting factor for them particularly. But the really common one is that people Surfing with their front foot pointing a little bit forwards, 45 degrees, which actually isn't functional and it's not particularly good for your knees either when you're doing it with your back foot in the same sort of pointing back a little bit. But they have their front foot pointing slightly forwards and often slightly off to the heel side of the board. That's a really common mistake.
And then as soon as they go up and they hit a target, you know, a bit of white water, a bit of lip, and it's hitting the bottom of the board underneath where their front foot is, instead of their front foot absorbing that pressure and turning it therefore into forward momentum, the board actually flips and it can, you know, catch you right between the legs or in the forehead or the nose. I'm sure that you've seen that happen to even really experienced Surfing when they go up and hit the lip and their front foot comes off the board and you see the board like crack them in the forehead.
So, I mean, usually it's not quite that dramatic, but what does happen is if people's front foot is just off the center, as soon as they have the foam hit the bottom of the board wobbles and, you know, usually they'll come off the board. And actually, you know, this is one of those things where we take them right back to their functional stance. The hands are on either side of the rails, the front foot's square on the front foot, the toe is well on the toe side of the stringer.
And then the knee really absorbs that power when it hits the bottom of the board. So, you know, that's just one example of a classic way you can coach someone through that particular problem. But just talking more generally about being intimidated in the ocean, there's like most things, there isn't any one magic answer. You kind of have to approach it from multiple angles.
So, you know, being out in big waves particularly, or having the confidence to stuff yourself in the pocket when you want to run for the shoulder comes from really understanding what's going on and the mechanism of how the wave's working. And, you know, we spend time with people who will go out with a mask and swim down under the waves when it's big and really watch what's going on and we'll get them without a board to sit a little closer to the wave so that, you know, they'll get sucked up and over or sit a little further down so that they don't. And so they really understand what's going on underneath the water. And we've found that really changes it for a lot of people because suddenly it's not this mysterious, scary world of blackness, but they really kind of know what's happening. Then there's you know, we do breath hold training, which is really important. And again, that helps people a lot. General fitness training, understanding all of the things that can go wrong and how you can deal with all the situations the ocean throws at you.
So, you know, one thing we do is we teach people about, you know, leash climbs and safety positions for getting in and the different ways that you can get through waves on boards that you can duck dive and boards that you can't duck dive. And then we'll kind of sit down with people and we're like, okay, you're on the inside, you've got a wave about to break on your head, you've got a Surfing coming down the line, and you don't know which way to go. The beach is here or the reef is here. This is the situation. We'll draw it out on the whiteboard. We know what choices have you got.
And then, you know, there'll all be things that we've gone through before, five or six different options that they've got for tactics for dealing with the situation. And then we'll talk about the pluses and minuses of each tactic.
And then what you have is people who are in the ocean who are still gonna wipe out, still gonna roll around and still get intimidated by waves. But instead of just being in blind panic mode, they're like, okay, we sat in the classRum and we talked through this situation. And I've got three options. And if I choose the worst of those options, I know that I'm still gonna be okay. And, you know, if I choose the right one, I'm still gonna get rattled a bit, possibly, but at least I'm gonna minimize it so it's gonna be efficient.
And then it becomes just a simple decision -making process. The whole process of being out, not just Surfing, but paddling out and being in the impact zone just becomes a, shall I do A, B, or C? You just keep making decisions all the way, until you're either out the back or you're back on the beach.
Michael Frampton
Nice, that's a great way to look at it. And I totally agree, knowledge is power.
Ru Hill
Yeah.
And knowledge is fun. Yes.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, well, that's what sparked the conception of this podcast, is that just little tips like that and shifts in perspective and obviously going and getting lessons and doing courses, they just Slack up on top of each other and the next thing you know, two years later, your Surfing has progressed so much more than if you hadn't have invested all that time and knowledge and courses and things.
Ru Hill
Yeah, and I think there's, for a lot of people, there's still a real stigma about being coached in Surfing. I think people feel self -conscious about it.
I mean, I think it's something that people do for fun and they feel like if they go and get coached, then it sort of says that they're taking it too seriously and they kind of feel, as I say, they kind of feel self -conscious. We have this chat with people before they go out and do their first video lesson. And if you don't have this conversation with people, you can guarantee that they'll go out and then they'll come back in like a really dark place in their head because they didn't Surfing as well as they wanted to for the camera, you know? And when people haven't seen themselves surf before and then they see it on video for the first time, you know, it's mortifying. It's like hearing yourself sing for the first time. It's just not good.
You know, so we kind of say to people, look, when you go out there, you're not gonna surf your best. The chances that you're gonna do your best Surfing exactly the same session that we pulled the camera out and video you is almost zero. It's just not gonna happen. And not only are you not gonna Surfing your best, but you're gonna go out there and you're gonna make some stupid mistakes.
You know, you're gonna go over the handlebars, your hand's gonna slip off the rail, you'll misjudge the wave and nosedive. And then you'll think in your head, the coach is gonna think I always Surfing like this and usually I'm much better than this. This whole thing's a total waste of time.
And then you kind of go down that little dark spiral. So, you know, I think it's really important. And if anyone that's listening to this that does video coaching, this is a really important conversation to have with people. Tell them you're only gonna be looking at the things that they're doing four, five, six times. Only the repeated mistakes you're gonna be addressing. The one -off mistakes, you're just not even gonna address them. You're just gonna move on. And just telling people that gives them the freedom to go out and actually Surfing and have fun. And in front of the camera, which gives you much more useful footage to work with later on. And it's good to point out to people that really the most useful thing they can do for you as a coach is to make every mistake they ever make Surfing that time when you've got the camera out and the camera's pointing at them.
I mean, they may feel really stupid, but that's fantastic because it means that you can address everything. And the most unhelpful thing they can do is actually to go out and Surfing their best, you know, way better than they usually do. Because then when you come in, you're gonna be addressing all the wrong things.
Michael Frampton
That's a good way to put it. Yeah, I wish someone had told me that ages ago. I've got another question on your website on the Surfing coaching section. It's got, and I quote, you will never hear us offering ambiguous advice like feel the rhythm of the wave. Instead we communicate, you know, blah. Basically you're saying, you know, we wanna break it down, demystify it, and simplify it so people can learn it. Now, if I backpedal and go back, some of my previous interviews I've done, a lot of the surfers and surf coaches are often talking about the feeling of Surfing. Can we logic, can we analyze that?
Ru Hill
So, yeah, there's two things there. And actually it's funny, because I was listening to a couple of your podcasts before and, you know, the people you're interviewing were using that same expression. And I thought, we can talk about that. That's awesome.
So first of all, that part of the website, the point that we're making, isn't that everything can be completely broken down technically and, you know, we all enjoy Surfing and there's an emotional aspect to it, which isn't what we do. We just teach people how to Surfing technically better and then we hope that kind of joy comes as an emergent property of that. But what we don't do is use ambiguous language.
So whenever possible, if we're gonna bring in a technical term, and I think this is just true of teaching across the board actually, but whenever you wanna communicate something, I think it's really important if you're gonna bring in a term, like earlier I was talking about trimming versus carving, you know, I was very careful to define what I meant by trimming and carving. And, you know, that's really the point. I see a lot of Surfing coaching going on where people use what I would call, you know, circular logic.
So they'll say, I want you to do this better by doing it better. For example, I want you to have more speed through this cutback, so really drive through it.
You know, it's kind of like you're telling the guy you want him to go faster when he's coming out of the turn, and so the way you want him to do it is to go faster when he's coming out of the turn. So we wanna use really specific language, and we don't wanna just try and explain something by just saying the same thing in a different way. That's really the point. The specific example of feeling the rhythm of the wave is interesting because there's a lot of aspects of Surfing, and this kind of comes down to critical thinking, actually, and, you know, evaluating how valid a specific hypothesis is, right?
So there's a lot of aspects of Surfing that are emergent properties of surfing well, and you hear coaches talk about them as if they are things that you need to do. So let me give you an example. Going back to that cutback example, right? If you're going through a cutback and you're coming out of it with a lot of speed, there's a reason why Connor Coffin comes out of his cutbacks with so much speed, right? And telling him just that he needs to, you know, drive through it faster or make sure he turns in rhythm with the wave actually doesn't really help because you're just left as the Surfing thinking, well, yeah, okay, I know what it looks like when someone's in rhythm with the wave, but how do I get in rhythm with the wave if I'm not in rhythm with it? Just having someone tell me doesn't really help.
You know, one of the things that we often see is someone like Tom Curran connecting different maneuvers together really well. It's just as a classic example when I was growing up. And that's because each individual maneuver has been performed at the right time. And the emergent property is, the aggregate of all of those maneuvers is that there appears to be a fantastic rhythm as he Surfing along the wave. But you can't tell someone to do the end result. You have to tell them how to do each maneuver and how to judge each next maneuver.
And then the emergent property is, you have this sensation of rhythm and this appearance of rhythm as you watch someone else. Another example in competitive Surfing is, we talk about, this is a classic conversation you've heard a thousand times.
You know, are you gonna win the world title? You know, said to insert title contenders name here.
And then, you know, they'll say, hey, I'm just trying to focus on winning heats and it's just one heat at a time, which is exactly the right response. You know, winning the world title is an emergent property on a much bigger scale, obviously, to having rhythm in a wave. But it's an emergent property. And actually winning heats is the mechanism by which you get there.
So, you know, what we try and do is teach the mechanism rather than just tell people, you know, this is what you wanna do. And those are two specific kinds of language, which I think a lot of teachers, and this isn't a Surfing coaching thing, this is just a teaching thing. I think a lot of teachers and sports coaches fall into that trap. And we certainly do too, but we try to be aware of it and we try to avoid it as much as we possibly can. Does that make sense?
Michael Frampton
Definitely. Yeah, just, if we go back to your, like your Surfing to the targets. If you went out and spent a session with an intermediate surfer saying, hey, I really want you to surf to these targets, they might come out of that session and they would describe their Surfing as being more rhythmic and more flow, they have more flow.
So that's how they would describe the feeling of Surfing. But you didn't coach that in those terms. You really broke it down into, you know, Surfing coaching.
Ru Hill
Right, exactly. I mean, so again, just to use that world title example, you know, I mean, if you were coaching someone to win a world title, you wouldn't say to them, I want you to win a world title. You'd teach them how to Surfing each wave and get the highest score, you know?
And then like I say, the world title, or the contest win, you know, or even the heat win, you know, that comes as a result of doing the other stuff. So we just, we try to make sure that we don't put the cart before the horse, which I think a lot of people do. And you know, it's really interesting. I don't know if you ever listened to our podcast, but me and Harry are coaching director and some of the other guys, we're all kind of a little nerdy and we're quite into science and we're quite into critical thinking. And it's funny how many lessons you can take from that and you just kind of like plug it into Surfing coaching and you get some interesting things come out.
You know, one of the common ones we were talking about on the podcast recently and that we use all the time is not mistaking correlation for causation. You know, so one of the classic things that you see a lot of videos like online Surfing videos do is that, you know, a pro Surfing will do a really nice turn and then the guy doing a voiceover on the video will say, you can see how, you know, whichever the Surfing is, he's holding this hand here, he's holding this hand here, he's compressing here, and therefore that's how you do the turn. And it's like, well, possibly, but you don't know which of those things are causing him to do the turn really well and which of those things were actually, if you took it away, would the turn work just as well?
You know, and that's more true for turns off the top than turns off the bottom. But even in bottom turns, I mean, look at how Jon does a bottom turn and it's almost like contrary to how bottom turns were taught through most of the late 90s and early noughties.
You know, sort of more up straight and with his hands less out. So it's just kind of interesting making sure that one doesn't assume that just because a Surfing is holding their body in a certain way, that is necessarily the thing that's making them Surfing well.
You know what I mean? And again, you have to use that process of, all right, well, you know, if something is very plausible, then, you know, we don't need a lot of evidence to be quite convinced it's probably right. If something's really implausible, then we need a lot more evidence to find out if it's right. And, you know, there's not really anyone out there at the moment who's really, you know, doing a deep dive and trying to like do A, B testing and really find out what works and what doesn't work. And it's very tempting to just think, look at how good all the best Surfing in the world are. They must be right.
I mean, to suggest that they don't know what they're doing is insane. And mostly that's probably true, but there's probably nuanced little things, which are going to evolve. Because if we look back at the best Surfing in the 90s, you know, the way they were Surfing was pretty different.
I mean, look at the boards everyone was riding in the 90s, right? It's like, we all got it wrong. Just everyone got it wrong in the Surfing community.
You know, and it would be naive to think that right now we are at the pinnacle of knowledge and it won't go forward. So, you know, the conversation we always end up having is, what are the Surfing in 2050 and 2070 going to be laughing about when they look at videos of us Surfing today?
You know, I mean, us collectively as surfers in 2016 and trying to think about what those things might be. It's a really difficult thought experiment.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I do. That's what I love about your podcast is you really do nerd out and break things down and educate us a lot.
I mean, that's awesome. I think Surfing needs more of that. And I think there's a misconception in the general Surfing public that a lot of good surfers are just good surfers because, you know, they started when they were five and they're natural athletes. But the more I get to know these Surfing, just being in the industry, the more I learn how much goes on behind the scenes.
Like, so much goes on behind the scenes. It's ridiculous.
Like, these surfers that are Surfing at these high levels, they are completely 100 % obsessed. Like, they are not watching Game of Thrones at night. They are watching Surfing videos and slowing them down and breaking them down and doing yoga. They're not doing what most people do to chill out at night. They're studying Surfing and they're really, you know, they're spending money on boards and footage and there's so much that goes on behind it, so.
Ru Hill
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, Game of Thrones is pretty good, so that's a bit of a sacrifice.
Michael Frampton
Well, you do have to sacrifice, don't you?
Ru Hill
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, there's an interesting, I can't remember who wrote it off the top of my head, but there was a really interesting kind of thesis that I was reading on TechCrunch the other day. And he was some like, it was written by some CEO startup from Silicon Valley, you know, and basically he'd written this idea, which is apparently quite well supported by research, that you can put in, if you imagine in order to be the best in the world at something, you have to put in 100 % effort, right? Just sort of to give you a scale, right?
So if you put in about 20 % of that 100%, you can actually get up to being about 80 % good at something and then to climb from 80 % to 100%, in other words, that difference between being, you know, the best guy at your local beach break to being on the world tour, that takes the other 80 % of effort. It's called the 80 -20 principle. If any of your listeners are interested, if you Google Meet, I'm sure there's a ton of articles they can read. But I mean, it's kind of interesting, because again, we focus mainly on people who are not those elite level competitive surfers, but are just, you know, everyday surfers that you're Surfing with every day out at your beach break. And I think sometimes they're almost intimidated by knowing how much work those top guys put in and they kind of think like, yeah, I just Surfing for fun, I'm not really into doing all of the drills and the coaching and the cross training, because like I'm not a competitor. And it's like, well, actually, you don't have to, you know, give up watching Game of Thrones. You can just put in 20 % of the effort and see a huge increase. And unless you're prepared to put in the other 80%, no, you're not gonna make it up to that elite competitive level. But most Surfing aren't.
I mean, most of us are in it for the, well, you know, the reason that I'm in it is because, you know, I just really like being out in the water and Surfing and I love having something that I enjoy that keeps me fit, you know, especially as the years go by. So, you know, I think it's just worth bearing that in mind. And it's kind of hit me recently as well. I'm sort of just coming up to 40 now. The average age of the guests that come and stay with us is 37. We have a lot of people in their 30s and 40s and 50s come along. But most of our guests are like really fit, really smart, capable people. And they just have either come to Surfing later in life or they surfed when they were younger and then family and career took over.
And then before they come and stay with us, you know, we send them a whole training program of swimming and whatnot to do in preparation for coming because it's quite a full -on physical week. And people come along and they're like right in the peak of their fitness and they're really smart people, you know. It's not a cheap week.
So people have to have been good at something to make enough money to come along and stay with us. We had a bunch of people come from Google and Facebook and I don't know, the word, I guess, the gossip's kind of gone around.
So now we have a ton of Silicon Valley types come from Google and Facebook. And you know, they're really smart, interesting and interested people. They're really interested in stuff and really capable. And you know, watching the way that those people approach Surfing later in life is really inspirational to me, you know, because they're so passionate and they so want to be good at it. And you know, I think we all tend to just, again, think of this binary thing of there's like, you know, the beginner doing their kind of lesson and then that's it and we don't take them very seriously.
And then there's the really good free Surfing who's the best guy at the beach who you'd never see him at a Surfing school. And actually, you know, these people that are kind of right in the middle there, to me, are just fascinating.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, totally. And you know, nowadays with the internet, we have all those Surfing that are willing to put in that 20 %%% to improve. There's so many resources online, like just your YouTube channel, for instance.
You know, I urge people, listeners, to go and check out the Surfing Simply website and the YouTube channel and just start learning. And for sure, go and check out what the Surfing Simply Resort is offering. It looks pretty amazing. It looks pretty awesome. Now, is there any Surfing --- thanks, Mike. Is there any surfer that would get nothing out of your resort? It doesn't, it looks like even an advanced surfer would enjoy their stay there.
Ru Hill
So, you know, I guess there's sort of two ends of the spectrum. You know, we sometimes have people come along who are coming along as like with a friend or, you know, it wasn't really their thing to come along, but they were coming along with a partner or with a friend. And like their physical fitness just becomes the limiting factor pretty quickly.
So, you know, if people come along and they're not in great shape, you know, we always say, look, we're gonna make sure you have a fantastic time. I mean, we have 12 guests each week and we have nine coaches that work with our 12 guests.
So, you know, usually it's like one to one or two to one. It's not like you're going out in a class.
You know, so your coach takes it at the same pace. You know, we never mix ability or fitness levels within, you know, little groups. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of a bummer when you see people and you think, look, you've got all the pieces there, but if you're out of puff, you know, after half an hour, that's a very difficult thing to work with as a coach.
You know, you just kind of have to slow the pace of things down. You do a little more theory, you take everything a little slower. But, you know, I would really urge people that are thinking about coming along to get in shape before they come. That's one thing.
And then, you know, right at the other end of the spectrum, you know, we work a lot with people that are shortboarding and interested in tube riding. We've got a really nice, heavy beach break. It's not the one that we Surfing at every day, but it's about 15 minutes drive north and it's sand bottomed.
So that's a great little place for practicing tube riding. We work a lot with vertical Surfing, as we've talked about on shortboards. When people start getting like up in the air, you know, and doing rodeo clowns, that kind of stuff, and really focusing on specifically competitive Surfing, then that then is a little out of our pay grade.
I mean, you know, we work with a few people like that, but that's not really what I would say our specialty is. They do much better checking out somewhere like where you are at the high performance center. And actually, if any listeners are in the US and they've got under 18s that want coaching, one of the guys I used to work with called Al Esbir runs a program called Initiative Surfing. And we used to work together and he sort of branched off and he just now works with young competitive kids between like 12 and 18, 12 to 18 I think he does. But he runs a great program.
So yeah, you know, those are the two kind of bookmarks, I guess, at either end of what we work with.
Michael Frampton
Yep, okay. And folks that wanna learn more, just go to surfsimply .com. Pretty awesome website. You guys have created a great website full of loads of information, but it almost looks like just looking at the website, you just know what you're gonna get. You guys have got everything covered, meals, accommodation, Surfing, education, yoga, blah. I'm hoping, I'm actually moving to America soon. Hopefully I'll get the chance to go and come and stay with you guys.
Ru Hill
It'd be great to have you down here sometime. That'd be awesome. And yeah, thanks. I really appreciate the kind words about the website.
I mean, we have like seven or eight, no, maybe a few more than that, maybe nine or 10 Surfing coaching tutorials just to kind of really to give people an idea of what we do. They're a little bit out of date now.
So I probably need to shoot them on an HD camera to keep up with what the internet has to offer these days. But people seem to find them helpful.
So if they're helpful to any of your listeners, that's great. And thanks so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. I'm a big fan of what you do. I think it's fantastic.
Michael Frampton
Thank you. And by the way, listeners, there is a Surfing Simply podcast as well available on their website as well as on iTunes. I recommend that. I'm a listener as well. But before you go, Ru, can I just ask you a quick few questions? What's your favorite surfboard?
Ru Hill
So my current favorite surfboard, not high performance at all actually, is I stole off my fellow podcast host, Harry. I stole his 5 '8 Roundnose Fish, you know the lost roundnose fish, the same as the one they had in 5 '5 by 19 3 quarters. And I've been Surfing that for the last couple of months and just having a ton of fun on it.
Some of your listeners might be familiar with Harrison Roach. And we have a little Surfing Simply magazine and he writes for our magazine as well. And he and I were chatting the other day about an article he just put up recently which is all about how, you know, fishes are often thought of as small wave boards but they're great in big waves. And I've been trying to put that to the test with mixed degrees of success. I'm not nearly as good a Surfing as him.
Michael Frampton
Okay, I've got a fish just on that note. I've got a fish board called the Alien by Formula Energy which is a board design that Gary McNeil and David Rastovich came up with. And it's such an all -round Surfing board. It works from one foot to, I've surfed it in like choppy eight foot waves and it held its own far better than I expected.
So go and check that board out, the Alien model from Formula Energy. Okay, the second quick question is, what's your favorite Surfing vid?
Ru Hill
Well, we reviewed South to Cyan and I'm kind of biased because, you know, Harrison made the movie. But I do think it's just a beautiful movie. I really love, you know, the way they're riding slightly bigger boards and it's just beautifully shot. I've got a view from a blue moon as my screensaver on my computer at the moment.
So it kind of pops up. And I love Jon Surfing. I think that's just a beautifully shot movie as well. I think those two at the moment are kind of standing head and shoulders above the rest for me.
Michael Frampton
Awesome, favorite Surfing?
Ru Hill
It has to be Jon. I'm sorry, that's such a predictable answer. But I mean, it's like, how could you not love watching him Surfing? It's just, it's so good. And he's such a nice guy as well. We were staying next door to him in France a few years ago and we got to have a little chat and yeah, just such a humble, unpretentious guy, very positive and yeah, just huge fan.
Michael Frampton
Agreed. Do you listen to music before you Surfing? And if so, what's your current favorite song or album?
Ru Hill
Yeah, I do. I've got my Spotify, I got into Spotify recently.
So I'm trying to, actually it's funny, trying to, talking about being, you know, not precious with stuff. So when I got Spotify about six months ago, I deleted all of the music I'd ever owned and just decided to start again from zero in that spirit of trying to be not be precious with stuff.
So I'm discovering like a lot of new stuff at the moment, which is pretty fun. But I've got a secret soft spot for Apex Twin, which is this kind of off the wall English electro stuff that most people probably hate that I play it to.
So maybe that's not one I should recommend to your listeners.
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool. Ru, thank you so much for your thoughts on Surfing and I'm looking forward to more podcast episodes, more video tutorials, and hopefully eventually coming to stay with you guys and maybe even future podcast episodes. Looking forward to it. Again, thanks Ru.
Ru Hill
Thank you so much, Micah. I'm a huge fan of the show and I just think it's a great project that you've got going with the Surfing Mastery.
So yeah, thank you so much for having me on. Thank you.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surfing Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep Surfing.
017: Dr. JOHN DEMARTINI - Performance and Behavior Specialist
Nov 10, 2016
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Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Unlocking Surfing Mastery and Flow States with Dr. John Demartini
What separates the world’s best surfers from the rest, and how can you tap into that mastery to elevate your surfing to new heights?
In this episode, Dr. John Demartini dives into the philosophy and psychology behind mastery, exploring how surfers can achieve consistent flow states, overcome anxiety, and refine their skills by focusing on the finer details. Whether you're a competitive surfer or simply looking to deepen your connection with the ocean, these insights will help you unlock your potential.
Learn how mastering the “executive center” of your brain can elevate your surfing performance and keep you centered in the most challenging conditions.
Discover the power of mentorship, visualization, and incremental progress to fast-track your path to mastery.
Understand the balance between humility and confidence for sustainable long-term growth in both surfing and life.
Tune in to discover practical strategies and transformative insights to help you surf with precision, purpose, and passion—press play now!
Notable Quotes:
"A master is one who focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a thing."
"The wave is alive—it holds information about the universe, and when you align with it, you become one with nature."
"It's not about being cocky; it’s about being certain—with gratitude and presence, mastery follows."
"Nature rewards humility and focus. Those who fight it never win."
Dr. John Demartini - Performance and Behavior Specialist. Dedicated to Maximizing Your Potential & Helping You to Love Your Life!
John discusses the differences between good surfers and great surfers - those surfers who are truly on the path to surf mastery. What the greats do differently, how they get into flow states (the zone) more consistently and deeply than most surfers. How your emotions can affect your surfing, how to maximize your presence and awareness in the water. How to overcome performance anxiety and much much more.
If you are serious about mastering surfing then John's educational material is essential for maximizing your potential.John is also a best-selling author, I recommend every surfer reads 'The Values Factor'. There are so many valuable tips in this interview. Enjoy.
Dr. Demartini defined mastery as the ever greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of tube riding and riding great waves of all different sizes.
Dr. Demartini explained that truly great surfers put in more mileage, effort, and training compared to average surfers.
Dr. Demartini described how a surfer named Al Chapman would meticulously study the waves and timing of sets at Sunset Beach before paddling out.
Dr. Demartini emphasized the importance of having a mentor or watching videos of great surfers to speed up the learning process.
Dr. Demartini discussed the concept of being in a "flow state" or "the zone" and how it relates to peak performance in surfing.
Dr. Demartini explained how emotions and mental states can affect physical movements and efficiency while paddling and surfing.
Dr. Demartini advised surfers to practice being present in between performances to achieve a consistent state of flow.
Dr. Demartini suggested that surfers who truly love the sport will be inspired to eat well and take care of their bodies to maximize performance.
Outline
Mastery in Surfing
Dr. Demartini defines mastery in surfing as the ever-greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of tube riding and riding great waves of all different sizes.
Mastery involves putting in more mileage, effort, and training than others.
The ability to master any size and condition is emphasized, turning it into an amazing opportunity.
Truly great surfers demonstrate an obsessive level of dedication, though inspiration is preferred over obsession.
Masters focus on every finer detail that the average surfer is not aware of, practicing in between their performances rather than just during them.
Key Traits of Master Surfers
Master surfers put in significantly more time, effort, and training than others.
They demonstrate an intimate understanding of ocean conditions, wave patterns, and surf spots.
Exceptional accuracy in reading and anticipating waves is a key trait of master surfers.
A highly efficient paddling technique allows for catching more waves.
Maintaining a centered, emotionally stable presence while surfing is crucial.
Refining skills rather than comparing oneself to others is a focus for master surfers.
Extensive practice and preparation occur between surfing sessions, not just during them.
A deep respect for and connection with nature and the ocean is evident among master surfers.
Mental State in Surfing Performance
Being present and focused on the wave is essential for peak performance.
Comparing oneself to others or worrying about competition can negatively impact performance.
Balancing confidence and humility is important; being too cocky can lead to injuries or poor performance.
Gratitude for the opportunity to surf and respect for nature can enhance one's connection with the waves.
Visualization and mental rehearsal of surfing maneuvers can improve actual performance.
Staying centered emotionally and mentally leads to more graceful, efficient movements in the water.
Achieving Flow State in Surfing
In this state, surfers experience heightened attention, quicker decision-making, and smoother execution.
Flow state occurs when surfing aligns with one's highest values and feels like their life's purpose.
Being fully present with the wave involves extracting space and time from one's mind.
Achieving flow state consistently requires practice and focus on being present in the moment.
Comparing oneself to others or worrying about competition can prevent entering a flow state.
Aligning Surfing with Highest Values
When surfing is a top priority, it activates the brain's executive center, leading to better performance.
Surfers who see surfing as their life's purpose, rather than just a hobby, are more likely to achieve mastery.
Inspiration, rather than obsession, drives true masters to continually refine their skills.
Long-term vision and commitment to surfing as a lifelong pursuit contribute to mastery.
Preparing for Optimal Surfing Performance
Proper nutrition is crucial for maintaining energy levels and overall health.
Quality sleep and recovery are important for sustained performance.
Mental preparation, including visualization and setting clear intentions, can improve surfing outcomes.
Studying wave patterns, ocean conditions, and surf spots can give surfers an edge in performance.
Balancing surfing with other aspects of life contributes to long-term success and fulfillment.
Connection Between Surfers and the Natural World
Understanding the complex factors that influence wave formation can enhance surfing ability.
Respecting the power of the ocean and being aware of potential dangers is crucial for safety.
Viewing surfing as a way to connect with nature rather than conquer it leads to a more fulfilling experience.
Recognizing the interconnectedness of all elements in nature can inspire a sense of awe and humility in surfers.
Transcription
Dr. John Demartini
Not letting emotions waver them their head will stay centered while they're patterned.
Michael Frampton
Welcome to the Surfing Mastery podcast interviewed the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Surfing better.
Dr. John Demartini
Masters wanting focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a detail. The average surfer is not aware of those things.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surfing Mastery podcast It's been a little while since I released an episode But I promise you the wait has been worth it. Today's episode is my favorite so far. I had the opportunity to interview Dr. John Demartini John is a Surfing from the United States of America But professionally John is a performance and behavior specialist Dedicated to maximizing your potential and helping you to love your life John is so much more than that. He's a philosopher a coach a teacher. I just urge you guys this podcast or this interview is well worth multiple listens and I urge you to go to John's website. That's drdemartini .com Have a look around he's got some awesome books some awesome DVDs, etc Anyway, without further ado. Here is the interview, please enjoy Please go on to Facebook and give us some feedback any questions, etc.
Michael Frampton
Enjoy. What's your definition of Mastery?
Dr. John Demartini
Mastery? Well, I had a dream to master my life and I perceived that My life had seven areas So I wanted to be inspired and did what I do what I really am inspired by doing I wanted to Wake up my genius and I wanted to have a great mind I wanted to have a international business, which I did traveled around the world I wanted to have a successful business. In other words, I wanted to have financial independence, which I was blessed to have I wanted to have a global relationship. I didn't want live in a little suburbia house I wanted to have social influence and I want to have a vital body at a Ripe old age and still doing pretty good at 62 So that was Mastery of those areas But a master of any field surf Mastery would be the mastery of Surfing and the ever greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of Tube riding basically and riding great waves all different sizes Be able to master any size any condition and turn it into amazing opportunity.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. I love that definition. And what do you think separates? The good Surfing from the great surfer that's truly on that path.
Dr. John Demartini
The really truly great surfers that I had the opportunity to meet Put in more mileage. They put in more effort more training I remember one time I was At Al Chapman's a -frame on the north shore of Oahu near Rocky Point and he was Sleeping and a friend of mine. I were expanding our consciousness and We all of a sudden another guy came in and said the swells coming in and we knew a big swell was coming and So but it was not that big but it was coming in and the lines were just they're coming in I don't know where you could see him coming in and Al looked out his little window and saw the lines and knew the angle and knew that sunset would be right on so he got his board and Al was a unique guy who's kind of a interesting character and It didn't really a socialize and interact with that a lot of people at the time at least the people I hung out with and he went out and so we followed him and We were sitting on the beach on an incline at Sunset Beach Looking down at him and he was sitting in the sand in a meditative kind of lotus position and Had his board next to him and he was Memorizing how many seconds were in between the set and memorizing with his eyes closed How frequent the sets were and he was counting second by second the timing between sets which one is the biggest wave on the beach in the set and was familiarizing myself of what was coming in and He was looking at the way it rolled down the beach as the angle It was hitting the sand was telling it and he could tell by whether it was rolling Sideways or coming straight in he knew every he knew so much about Sunset Beach that he could tell When to paddle where to paddle it was amazing. He understood the Sequence of the sets so there'd be like three sets and then be a pause and there'd be four sets and be a pause kind of thing and so Other people were starting to get there to go out and you could see them trying to get out through the shore break And it was just getting big quick and he waited and he went out I don't think he even got his hair wet going out and he knew the set he timed it We just paddled and he caught the rip at sunset. There's a rip there taking you out And he rode the rip out with one hand paddling gently and the other just on the front of his board. And so we had We want to watch him Surfing because he's a great surfer. And so we were looking through binoculars and he watched him go out and he picked without question the biggest wave That was coming in and it was getting big quick and Nobody goes left on a big sunset He goes right, but he took off right and on the drop he swapped and went left into the tube and went right into this massive wall that went halfway down to Belze land and We watched this we said this guy's nuts and it was just this giant beautiful thing and he rode this tube into oblivion and We didn't know if he the whitewater was so big that was coming in that We didn't know if the guy was gonna make it. We thought for sure. He's on that ledge at sunset and then he came popping up and he came in and he rode one big wave And he went left and then he came in went back to his a -frame. There's a wildest thing But watching him Synchronize the rhythms of nature and the language of the ocean was such an educational experience and even though we didn't Accumulate what he had accumulated and we didn't know what he knew we Attempted to get a sense for our Surfing from that day on that way and it was very helpful And that's a another step in Mastery I'm not a master server at the time. There were great Surfing, you know in my time there was Jerry Lopez was pipeline master. And so watching him do pipeline with such elegance and such Amazement was something to watch and there was another guy that nobody knew about it was never in any contest Who rode without a doubt the most outrageous waves who had thousand scars on his body and was the most daring guy? And he was never into any contest never was ending competition. It was just him and nature in the wave and Watching him Surfing He was as great as many of the surfers but never a competitor just was out there Surfing the big great waves and was always out there whenever the waves were just perfect just amazing and so yeah Mastery to me in surfing and watching guys that Take it to another level was inspiring to watch to see them. I saw Jerry Lopez get on Big Monday this one particular time was this really big Monday and I mean photographers were everywhere. It was just this perfect Pipeline and it was giant an outer reef was breaking and the inner reef was just perfect And he was riding this wave in this one wave He caught and he just got in the tube and he just got so far back in that it finally caught up with him and then it just He lost his board and it came in and he was standing on it looked like six inches of coral I mean the water was six inches deep He's standing on coral and another massive set is about to break on him And so we see this massive lip coming down on to Jerry Lopez and just smashing him into the coral And then we saw his body just floating down in the rip And they had to go out and get him. He lived through it, but it's amazing and what they were I mean, I was on the beach watching that day. I wasn't out there doing it a 10 -foot pipeline which is about 20 foot faces Maybe 25 foot faces I could be out there and I certainly wouldn't take on the steepest ones I would get the ones I knew I could make but these guys were just they just had I Guess a Mastery that they would it made the most difficult waves look simpler because they just they practice Surfing They master they were out there swimming in between This the swells Memorizing to all the corals looking at lineups knowing exactly where the rips were based on the angles Watching exactly how it hit the beach and what the rip was doing. They were into details a Master is one who focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a detail. The average Surfing is not aware of those things And they were out there Doing outrageous stuff on it was snorkeling on the calm days and looking at what was underneath and why it was breaking the way it was and where you would have a little bowl and Depending on where the lineup was and so they mapped these things out They were very aware of these details that the average person just went out Surfing I always say a master is the one who practices in between their performance and the amateur is the one who practice at the performance I Don't gonna call it an obsession.
Michael Frampton
So you do have to have quite an obsession with something to master it.
Dr. John Demartini
I would just call it an inspiration to Other people would call it an obsession. Yeah, what other people anybody that doesn't have the Surfing high enough on their values to see why they're Mastery it Would see it as an obsession because they would think that these guys are you know crazy, but They're inspired by the Mastery of Surfing inspired by finding out what they're capable of doing and Instead of comparing themselves to other Surfing They would look at what other surfers are pulling off and then they would look at What they're capable of doing and then they would look at why they're not able to do that and they would figure out a way to break through that and observe them not from an intimidation perspective, but from a an Execution perspective they're looking at how they're executing it what they're doing with their arms when they're pad for instance there were guys that were paddling and They could catch almost two and three times the number of waves because they had skills at paddling There's a lot of laws that I teach in the break to experience program and Surfing that I've seen a lot of correlates If you're centered and you're not wavering in your emotions you perform and are more masterful and Just like in martial arts when you're centered you you're able to dance not move all over the place and paddlers That it's almost like they're hydroplaning the way they the way they're holding their bodies up their heads are steady. You don't see wavering emotion in their body you see the centered presence when they're Surfing They're really masters. You can watch the way they do it and they out swim they out Paddle they out they can grab waves the other people can't do they can grab that I've seen Really great Surfing be behind somebody paddle more efficiently Get in front and take a wave and get twice as many waves or three times many ways and a guy that Within the lineup and you would have thought for sure would have made it but they were hesitant. They were hesitant instead of consistent And you could see them Waiting to see if it was going to match what they knew instead of taking the wave and creating it the masters would create the wave and know how to position themselves and the other ones would if they happen to catch it the right to band thing they would take It and it hesitate if it wasn't the way they were used to they didn't have enough repertoire to Use the waves to their advantage.
So there's just lots of things that did on the master that inspired to watch So they are they're dedicated to Mastery their science their art. Yeah, it's a slight science and art and a philosophy Yeah, there's a philosophy to Surfing too
Michael Frampton
So obviously, you know looking for the finer details and you know just being inspired by others and Spending the time, you know think you'd like you see it in between Surfing as well as doing lots of Surfing is going to help but there's what we Call in the athletic development world and this the extreme sports world is something called being in flow In a flow state or sometimes called being in the zone That's obviously that obviously speeds up your progression I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about some of the neuroscience behind flow states well.
Dr. John Demartini
There's just like in not just Surfing but in any endeavor each individual has a set of values and If the highest value in their life say let's say is Surfing it's one of their highest values Then when they're doing it, they are more likely to be in their executive center in their brain The executive center is involved in spired vision strategic planning executing plans and self -governance shows up in a body language of grace They're fluid. They're purely adaptable. They're resilient and Because they're living by their highest values Their Attention is heightened their decision -making is quicker and their execution is smoother There's they're more refined motor skills than gross reactions So anytime the person sees that Surfing is so high in their values that it's their way of life. It's not a Hobby, it's their life if they feel like this is what they're here to do here They're here to become one with the wave you might say Those individuals will they'll get the blood supply and auction up into the executive center and that executive center will allow them to have that grace that being in the zone and they'll see no matter what happens on the way and they'll dance with it and they'll be Spontaneously aware and spontaneously deciding and spontaneously executing according to that in the moment That they whenever you're living by your highest value and you're in your executive center You have extracted out space and time in your mind and you're more present with whatever is happening And you're literally one with it it's if you're doing it as because you have to do it you're doing it because you're comparing yourself to somebody else and you're not doing it because you absolutely love doing it You won't be in the executive center and you'll be having to work at getting You know, you'll be you'll think it's about health if you work harder, you'll do it or if you know But it's not just about working harder It's about being present more efficient and that's what happens when you're there in the executive center. Your body is graceful It's present almost anybody in any field who's Really congruent with what they're doing gets to experience that zone We could call it being in the flow We could call it being self actualized. We could call it in the zone. We could call it present We could give it different names all different writers have been at different names But that executive center allows us that advantage and it puts us in a Where we're not even in comp. We're not worrying about competition. We're there We're not in competition with somebody else. We're not comparing ourselves to somebody else so much We're actually there to refine our skills and be present with it and being in the dance I remember a lady that lived behind me when I was 18 years old when I moved back from Hawaii. I Moved to Richmond, Texas and there was a young girl there that had a tennis Court on her yard and she asked me if I could play tennis with her and The first time I went there I beat her and Friday for about the first month or so I beat her and I wasn't a great tennis player I just played tennis, but she was said I'm learning tennis and she was taking classes and She didn't care if she won or lost But she used me as a person to volley balls back so she could practice Mastery her skills So she had a tennis pro teaching her skills and was she was just using me I was doing it competitively and trying to win and She was just trying to master the skill and using me as a punching bag. You might say to practice on Within two and a half months. I couldn't beat her within three months I didn't wanna play with her because it was no way I could beat her because she just kept refining a skill and she was There to master tennis. She went on to do great things in tennis and not only in high school, but college and many other things so I just was the difference in the amateur and the person is really committed to it is they don't the amateur doesn't have the executive center working on their behalf and The master does yeah.
Michael Frampton
So I think most Surfing can relate to the way you speak about the executive center or being in the zone and you know time slowing down etc But I think a lot of Surfing struggle with getting to that place even if Surfing is on their highest values they struggle with the consistency of Performance, you know, they struggle to get in that zone consistently.
Dr. John Demartini
Well, I think they're probably again comparing it just like if You're comparing yourself to another person while you're in competition and you're assuming that they're doing something greater You're automatically going to minimize yourself and the second you do you're out of your zone so You have to take whatever you're doing and see it on the way and ask how is it helping me to become greater? Because if you build up a fantasy about how you're supposed to perform because of comparisons Instead of actually just seeing no matter what you do How is it helping me become more masterful and how do I do it refine it? Foresight and mentorship will speed up the process and having to learn through trial and error and You'll trial and error it if you don't have a commitment to the Mastery So you ask yourself what worked at what didn't work today? And how do I refine it and you videotape it videotaping yourself and getting feedback from people that know what they're doing? Will speed up the process.
I mean just on paddling Just watching there was a guy in my time called IPA and IPA was this big guy Big kind of a Hawaiian guy and he had this little entourage of other Surfing that were up -and -coming Some of them were competitive Reno Abelero was one of them But there was some that were competitive, but most of them were just local Hawaiians didn't like the Halle but I over time after first we had a clash and There was a fight between the you know, these Americans coming over there But after you see he sees that you're there for a while he because befriends you and I became friends with him and He taught me a lot about When to take off I Could have probably spent Two more years there and probably figure that out through trial and error But he told me what to take off on and whatnot on a set and that one 10 -minute conversation allowed me to get another Probably one out of five waves which gives me a competitive advantage to learn how to Surfing and Just watching him and what he did and how he would take off and when he would get up and When and how he did bottom turns I found that when he did a really strong bottom turn his top turns and bottom turns were different I was sometimes afraid to make a real drawn -out bottom turn and really use my body properly and He could go through a section that most people would get closed out And he can make it through that section and the way he used his legs and the way he did bottom turns just watching him do that from above looking down when he'd take off and From watching paddling out and from the beach was Something to practice so having a mentor ahead of time or watching videos of the great Surfing and Then videoing yourself and looking at the difference. I think could speed up some of that learning process So How serious are you that's what it boils down to yeah?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but I'm that there are ways to short like you said you know a 10 -minute conversation saved you two years of trial and error.
Dr. John Demartini
Yeah, and there was a another guy that had I Think he had a death wish it's the only way I can explain it yet death, but he didn't care if he died he was able to take off on waves that there's no way I had the courage or the sense to take off on and watching him take off on the waves and making it and then I Used to go out in the afternoon. I Surfing in the morning from about 545 6 o 'clock to about 11 Then I would come in and eat and Then I would go back out at 1 to 4 Then I would come in to eat and I go back out till dark and during the afternoon it was oftentimes Choppy and blown out and stuff and so I'd never really expected to get a lot of tubes and that because it was you know fumbly with waters But I did it just for takeoffs and knowing full well that I'm gonna lunch it most of the time and I just practiced takeoffs. That was it just The afternoon nobody was out. Nobody would mess with it was all choppy. Just I would just practice taking off on waves and Knowing full well that I was gonna probably lunch most of them and just get caught and enough to take the rip out This is at Haleiwa usually or someplace and or Lonnie K or something and I would just go and take off and just Come in and go back out paddle again Just to practice takeoffs and I found that increased my ability to take off on a wave and that by doing that I Caught probably another one out of five waves those two out of five added another 40 % to Practice that you wouldn't get otherwise so taking and itemizing the different components and actually practicing those individual components incremental changes a Lot of times people are willing to make this massive jump instead of a lot allowing and honoring incremental change and just doing incremental Baby changes that all add up to make a great performance I think that's the thing is I break it down into its subcomponents when I watched a Gymnast who tried to go for the gold and be trained We did literally little incremental changes until that person could see in their mind's eye what they wanted If the Surfing can't see in their mind's eye how to Execute what they're going to do in each setting. They're probably not going to physiologically do it They've got to see it in their mind's eye and That's rehearsing that on the beach in the mind of what they're going to do So when they're out there that helps it's a mind game, too rehearsing exactly where what where the lineup is what you're going to do where the?
Michael Frampton
You mean like rehearsing specific.
Dr. John Demartini
Which wave I mean? Seeing it in your mind's eye and seeing what you're gonna do and then going out there and executing it according to what you've decided Where the agenda up front can be helpful and Then what happens after a while it becomes automatic and that's when you're in the zone because now you're in your executive center again.
Yeah Well watching them to learn something is different than Emotionally minimizing yourself to somebody that you're infatuated with I I've had Surfing and people in sports Think there's that the other person so far ahead.
Michael Frampton
Yes, sometimes You said comparing yourself to other Surfing.
Dr. John Demartini
They're great. There's no way I can ever do it. They just self -defeat I Asked them. What do you see in them that you admire great? Where and when do you demonstrate that and I document and where they're in the mind that they have it So they know they have it so they're not enamored and putting people up They're respecting and appreciating their contribution and their knowledge and watching them for their skills But knowing they have those components that allows you not to be sidetracked in a competition for instance If you're in a competition and you're in any way Minimizing yourself to some other Surfing. You've already defeated yourself You've got to be able to believe that Everything they have you have and then you want to master the skill and focus on being present with the wave.
Michael Frampton
What do you mean by? Knowing that you have what they have like can we take a practical example of that?
Dr. John Demartini
So if you admire them for their strength and stamina in paddling Good, where do you demonstrate strength and stamina in paddling? Where have you demonstrated and pinpoint where it was when it was in the moments it was and Document it in your mind until you can see you have it in it the same form in some way Because it may be in a rip You stayed in a rip for periods of time and you had incredible stamina and you demonstrated So it's not that you don't have it You just haven't seen it in the same form they have but you got to see where you have it when you do Instead of minimizing yourself to them when you're in competition with them You're actually seeing you have it and now I'm gonna apply it in this setting. Okay, so owning the trait is very helpful like I say learning from somebody and respecting them and Using them as a mentor is different than infatuating with them and minimizing yourself to them That's a big difference and knowing that distinction I think can make the difference is subtle but but inspired by somebody and infatuating with somebody or two different things infatuating is Seeing that they have a positive without a negative Inspired with them is knowing they have positives and negatives and you can see that they use those both to their advantage the difference you've been to the breakthrough experience Yeah, and you know when you're doing the breakthrough experience and you're actually seeing both sides synchronously There's a different state of presence and love that occurs that you can't get from just seeing only positive sides Infatuating with somebody well just think about this infatuating with a girlfriend is different than loving somebody Loving is embracing both sides Infatuation is seeing one side and being blind to the other side So if you're infatuated with the person's out Surfing you're blind to their downsides and you're gonna think that they have traits that you can't obtain But if you see that they have other sides and strengths and weaknesses and you get to see their human being and that they're applying Themselves more effectively that way you can own those traits and you cannot put them up on pedestals and you can actually Catalyze what you see in them inside you In a more efficient way because you have it already.
Michael Frampton
It feels like a subtle difference, too it Because if you're inspired by someone Inspired.
Yeah.
Dr. John Demartini
It's not missing. I've done that I mean, I've had people in sports do that. I've seen people in celebrities and in Hollywood do that. I've seen politicians use it and They they're no longer intimidated they're respectful not intimidated Infatuating with somebody Emerson said envy is ignorance and imitation is suicide. We're not here to put people on pedestals We're here to put them in our hearts if we put them in our hearts. We love them for who they are But I assure you everybody's got two sides You could take any great Surfing and you can list things that are not necessary the things you would admire about them Yes, you can always find both sides yeah talk to their girlfriends they'll point them out or boyfriends in some cases and but knowing both sides and keeping a level of Perspective on them and respecting him for their skills and their Surfing but not enamoring and fatuating with them is helpful to help you compete.
Michael Frampton
You mentioned something just before about if someone's paddling and they're not Wavering all over the place and they're staying nice and graceful and Balanced yeah, and you kind of mentioning how that might be a reflection of their deeper emotional state Yeah, what they're physically doing. How does that work?
Dr. John Demartini
If there's Let me use analogy if I was to have anybody who's listening to this podcast Sit up straight in their chair Look straight ahead with their head But with their eyes not their head, but their eyes and look down to the right With their eyes point all the way down to the right and try to smile It's faking - Can you feel it --- now frown down there? Feels more natural now look up to the left Now it's easy to smile in it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I kind of smiled automatically.
Dr. John Demartini
Yes now try to frown up there Feels abnormal so your brain is wired with an uplifting experience and a downright depressing experience so if you're having an emotion You're gonna have a tendency to move your eyes in different positions And the second you do your body is going to respond to your eye positions So person who's focused straight ahead with their eyes and not letting emotions waver them Their head will stay centered while they're paddling It be completely different. There's no movement and their breathing will be more diaphragmatic But if you're if any way Emotional you move your breathing out of the diaphragmatic breathing when you get the most oxygen and you get up in your clavicular breathing and you're Moving your body and anytime you're moving back and forth the movement through the water is less efficient So your head will be moving your eyes because of the eyes Positions the head will be moving the body will be moving and you'll be tacking back and forth in the water Which is less efficient path and a smooth thing with your head center. It's exactly like When I was very young I worked in a country plowing on a tractor If you hold a tree a mile away and point that tree and get your tractor in the direction that tree and never lose Side of the tree you'll make an unbelievable straight furrow But if you're looking 10 feet ahead of the wheels You'll wobble all over the place so the longer the vision The more steady the paddle and the shorter the vision the more Wobbly the paddle the longer your vision Longer if you're Surfing for right now. I got to compete. I got a win You're going to have less Fluidity than if I'm here to master Surfing. This is another contest The person that's thinking long term and is looking at their lineup and knows where they're going and is focusing on it not paying attention To what's going out there? They're going out to do it. They're gonna have a better paddle. They're gonna catch more waves They're gonna be more stable. They're gonna be less tired They're gonna be more graceful because you're gonna be in the executive center thinking long -term people who are in the executive center expand the space and time horizons in their view and People that are not and are there competing and comparing and emotional about things They're in their amygdala and they're immediately want immediate gratification and they're trying to compete and they're sidetracked by the things that are immediately around them and so that makes a difference in paddling and it makes a difference in your posture and when you're taking off if you're thinking about the last wave or Worrying about you only got one more wave to go in the heat You're not present Any time you're in the future and you're in your past You're in entropy and you're in breakdown and you're not into the zone. There's no way you mean the zone you have to be one with that wave in that moment present and Love that way be present with that wave.
Michael Frampton
And if you find yourself Not present and your mind is drifting somewhere else Perhaps while you're in the water waiting to catch a wave. Is there some sort of strategy to bring you back?
Yeah.
Dr. John Demartini
Practice being present in between your performance. So when you're in your performance, it's just natural Make a commitment now to start Mastery that skill if you're thinking again If you're comparing the only way you can be in competition and worrying about something and being anxious You're not with the wave. You just lost the wave. Where's your mind? You're thinking about what people think about you that just undermined it You're thinking about the net the guy or girl that's you're competing with that mind. You're not on the wave You have to be ready for that You have to be focusing on the wave as if you're out there by yourself out there Surfing some of the best surf Sometimes no one ever sees.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, there's often a lot of Even just anxiety to walk because catching a wave is such a unique and often rare experience That often happens very quickly waves can be short it's often a lot of anxiety around that take off and then you know, even if you are doing Surfing coaching and gaining more self -awareness of the way you surf it's hard to implement those strategies because of that anxiety and Rareness of that wave. Well.
Dr. John Demartini
The thing is just like in public speaking as I'm a professional speaker do You never have a fear of speaking Nobody has a fear of Surfing.
Michael Frampton
No.
Dr. John Demartini
It's nobody has a fear of speaking They have a fear of speaking in front of somebody that they think is smarter more successful greater more wealthy more influential Better looking better shape or more inspired by what they're doing So when you're out Surfing if you're saying in your mind, they're more successful. They have more won more tournaments They have made more money. They have more fans. They're in better shape. They're better looking girls more girls after them That's it that if you're in that you're already out of the zone Because those are automatically competitions and you're gonna compare yourself to them minimize yourself That's where I would go in and immediately own all those things In between my performance I would take that Surfing that I felt that way too I would go in there and identify everything that I admired and find out where I have it in the same form Then I would go out there and I would not be distracted by them and then I'd be present Surfing again, and then I would go in there and realize that a Tiger Woods I was walking at the British Open next to Tiger Woods and Because he came on our ship, you know with the world and He we got to meet him and everything else to meet with some of the people there And then we got the opportunity to walk with him in some of the holes And he had a caddy psychologist guy with him And it was very amazing watching the caddy Psychologists work with Tiger when Tiger hit a ball that was phenomenal right down the red This is before he had the issues with the girls That's when he was at his peak He would say When he would see Tiger any way he'd laid it or up He would calm him down and says when you're under pressures when you do your best And we still got Lenny holes to do and he would calm him down and Center him again If he would shoot it off into the woods or he should often a bunker or something like that He would say this is when you're performing is that this is when you shine and this is where you do amazing things for the gallery the people that are watching This is when you do the most amazing things.
So he was regulating and Giving him feedback to keep him centered So if he was up he would calm him down if he was down he would call him up or Center him up And he would get him back on Center the masters or Surfing. It's got the same process If he's had an amazing wave and he's all elated with adrenaline if he's wanting to show off and so puppy and Brag about it. He's on his way down if he's grateful and he's like, thank you to the universe and for the waves and realize that you want to be thankful for the ocean and thankful for the weather and thankful for learning and thankful for himself and Realize he's part of a whole Entourage of people and go through that whole thing and see he's part of that or she's part of that Better than if he goes now look at me and look how great I'm I watched I won't give a name, but there was a very noted, California Surfing back in the early 70s that Was a big shot hot shot winner of California when he came to Hawaii He didn't do so great. It's a big difference between California Surfing and Hawaiian surf Thicker bigger You can't do hot -dogging. It wasn't it was more lines and things in those days than it was this hot shot stuff and So he would came over there and he was cocky and he was staying in the tent city that we were at in Haleiwa and He was cocky and he was above everybody else and he just got humbled.
I mean humbled he got injured He did he was out there cocky and he got really humbled and a guy who was in the tent Got him drunk one night and said, you know, I'm gonna tell you the truth dude. You're really tall It says you're really, you know, you're you want to be a great surfer You need to love Surfing and not love yourself so much you got to get out of yourself and get onto the wave and get on with this culture of Surfing and realize that we're here as a culture to bring surfing to the world and it shifted his whole thinking and humbled him you could see the difference in his Surfing and his willingness to watch and observe and to learn and to listen was completely shifted because somebody spoke up to him and got him out of his own Self -importance. I don't think you'd be great Surfing with when you're Too elated with yourself. You have to be grateful for the opportunity to Surfing grateful for nature study nature, so you're really aware of it and Then go out there and keep looking at how I can refine and polish my skill tomorrow every day is a learning process.
Michael Frampton
It works both ways though doesn't I mean you can be too cocky and then you can like you said you can bring yourself Well down.
Dr. John Demartini
A hubris is a grand eyes meant pride before the fall Certainty is different than cocky Certainty is Mastery a skill and you're certain you can implement an exact execute a strategy with a grateful present mind Cocky is automatically a persona and mask covering up our insecurities different You've seen people in Hollywood when they're receiving an award and they are really humble with a tear in their eye and they're just grateful and they list all the teams and all the people that Made it possible and they did great performance and they repeatedly do great performance and they're just humble and grateful And they just they want to master the next one they want to do a greater performance and when somebody up there that's a one -shot big shot that goes up and You know you can see they're above everybody else anytime you go above people you're gonna get humbled Anytime you go below you're gonna get lifted, but when you're in the center People respect you and the respect is what you gain respect That's where you that's when you have the longest sustainable performance my opinion
Michael Frampton
There's like me as a Surfing you are If you're a professional surfer at least you you're a performing artist so you're kind of obligated to put on a show.
Dr. John Demartini
Yeah, but if you're putting on a show For them and you're cocky you'll get humbled That's when the greatest number there was a book that came out on sports injuries many years ago 30 for 40 years ago And about 36 years ago, and it was talking about people who were injured in sports and When they compared themselves to others and thought they were greater than or less than others That's when they got injured usually greater usually cocky. That's when they had the most injuries That's when they had the most tragic falls injuries Circumstances You can do it is it's been shown Centered grateful focused polished presenting with certainty and Putting on a fun. You can put on a fun act performance, but you're still certain inside You know how Muhammad Ali wasn't cocky he was certain, but he played the role for the market I'm the greatest But there was a certainty factor because he performed he practices, and he was he got in the zone well the time he got focused on the show he got his brain injury Focus on money when he was cocky when he was actually insecure if you go watch it He when he was actually uncertain, and he was trying to put on big it too big act to try to cover up his insecurity That's when he got hurt yeah Try a few I've made a list in the breakthrough experience and in my prophecy one program.
Michael Frampton
So he wasn't focused on the show he was.
Dr. John Demartini
I've asked thousands of people who have attended Go to the moment when you've had your greatest tragedies most powerful injuries that really challenging industries and look and see if you were Infatuated with somebody else manic elated and cocky or Thinking you're greater or invincible and you'll find that that's there every time That's when the injury. That's when you end up instead of being in the zone That's when you get closed out and snatched on the rocks That's when you're trying to you're not present you cannot perform your greatest Surfing when you're not present. It's just no way When you're in the zone you're present That's when you're dance And that's when you take off on something your feet aren't even on the board and you come back and land on the board And it just it glides and you don't even know how you did it So it can't be a cocky feeling it's you don't know how you did it You just felt like you were one with the wave and the universe is working with you There's there is an intelligence that I believe that even Einstein acknowledged in nature and Einstein said it's enough for me on a daily base to sit in awe humble before the intelligence of permeates the universe and partake of Exploring just a tiny portion of it on a daily basis. He had a humbleness like that same for Max Planck same for Schrodinger These guys are really humble to the intelligence that govern the universe even Michio Kaku Who just announced the intelligence of universe recently in his physics? These guys were They dedicated a life to want to know how this intelligence works I think that there's a respect for the intelligence and in the Elegance and beauty of nature and the life of nature. That's life waves are alive They're filled with information and they're revealing what's going on meteorologically and geologically and what's going on?
Sociologically and what's going on in their mind and if they're in tune with it They're working with nature if not, they're fighting nature and Paul Bragg one of my great teachers when I was left Hawaii Who inspired me to do what I'm doing today? Said that those that fight with nature Don't win.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, how would you just how would you define Surfing itself?
Dr. John Demartini
Well, I think the tradition I don't know where the first tradition I mean Hawaii was supposedly, you know where it kind of took it's a great thing, but I think people been curious about waves and riding things on waves for a young age Far back in history. I don't know when the beginning is I mean, I know I've read some books on it they say Hawaii and you know the Duke and all that but I think it's been going on and I think there's a I don't see us. I don't know how a Surfing could go anywhere where there's a wave and Not Just watch You know what I'm talking about?
Yeah, I just I don't care if I'm in a Watching a ship go by and watching the waves or a little lake with little bitty waves on the rocks Or an Antarctica. I watched waves on the ice Doesn't matter where I am in the world or where I'm in the ocean. There's a curiosity about What waves represent waves in telecommunication waves represents information and it's information of what the geology and meteorology and what sociology and what animals and plants and everything is doing at the time and all the Elements and the recycling of the elements of nature all working together to make those waves a certain way Because the density of the water the amount of salinity The pressure systems in the atmosphere Whether it's low or high pressure systems with the angle of the wind What's going on the time of the seasons the Sun the solar winds the moon? Every one of those things the master Surfing would explore all of those things and want to learn everything can about nature because there's no Boundary between the surfer and the universe as far as I'm concerned. There's not one thing in the universe. That's not affecting the West and the more Expanded our awareness of what is all affecting the waves I think the more we're going to be one with the wave and the less focused on ourself because we become an infinitesimal When we realize the waves are related to the infinite.
Michael Frampton
It's a good way to put it Yeah information what So obviously, you know, you've Surfing you've got the practical side of it like you just spoke about but when it comes to yourself And keeping your physical body healthy through nutrition and movement and things. Do you have any recommendations in that way?
Dr. John Demartini
Well anytime you're doing something if you know, you've got an a major amazing event coming up you're more likely to be disciplined a woman who knows she's about to get married will be very disciplined in her eating style to get into that wedding dress that day a person in any field of endeavor that knows they have a An amazing Performance to give are they're going to be doing a special performance They were usually more refined on and what's shown is that people who fill their day with high priority actions that inspire them Don't live to eat to live So a surfer who's committed to Surfing and sees that no matter what's going on in the universe as part of Surfing is More likely going to want to feed their body fuel that's going to maximize their performance instead of just eating junk I mean you want to make sure you're drinking quality water because your electrolytes you're going to tell you what your performance level is You're gonna want to make sure you're eating the proper Proteins to get your muscle performance is going to be at its peak You're gonna make sure that you have enough carbs to allow yourself to store energy You're gonna make sure that you study what works for you and do an inventory on that as Gandhi To maximize human performance as a leader He wanted to find out what he was eating every day to find out when he led people more effectively He read he watched his eye it to find out how he led more effectively based on his energy levels and his confidence levels So I think a Surfing is if they're fully on I think they're gonna Respect their body because it's the body that allows in the medium to Surfing They're gonna respect it and see it as a temple to take care of to Respect I when I was Surfing. I didn't have that respect until I turned 17 and Then I met Paul Bragg and Paul Bragg woke my mind up to this and The day I met him and I decided I was going to now eat To live and not live to eat beforehand I would just you know I didn't even think about nutrition didn't think about what I was feeling and just anything It was whatever would allow me to have energy and I could go Surfing but then I started eating quality foods and Quality nutrients and My endurance went up my ability to paddle went up Yeah, I slept I didn't need as much sleep I could see the impact it wasn't great It wasn't like 50 % But it was a five or ten percent change that you could see that was worth that difference and if you're a competitor And you are you know wanting to go out and excel and master this thing called Surfing then you might as well fuel your body and eat wisely You may go out and party, but I always say that Partying is an escape. I did studies with young children Well, I had a lady named Betty Paikola who did a research project for me She was 27 years into the study of human children's behavior, and so I asked I paid her To gather every article she could find by every one of the great Psychologists over the last 50 years on child development so I could learn every stages in every natural stage It was going in there, and I then summarize it we eat together summarize all these stages We had a good feel for all the different theories about child development and after doing that I then Assumed that they were accurate because of all their research But then I came across some children That found out what they really wanted to do at a young age and were very inspired and who structured their lives and priority each day And I found out that the normal patterns that those children went through Weren't they weren't didn't do the normal patterns. They didn't want to go out eat sweets They didn't want to go out and just escape they didn't want to go party. They didn't want to watch cartoons They didn't want to go and play They want to get on with their mission And I saw a kid is six years old end up becoming a best -selling author by nine I saw another girl who's a multimillionaire We now a supermodel and have her own fashion line another girl That's now working with Disney and has a five and a half million dollar contract with Disney and she was a young teenager, but they started at six seven eight nine years old and Once they got really clear about what they were doing it They wanted to make sure that whatever they were doing is going to get them there And they didn't do all the normal patterns So then I took all that research And I revamped it by starting to not look at what the average person was But on what the excellers and the peak performers and the people that did extraordinary things. What was their life like I? Found a whole new the thing that's what led me to the understanding of how important values are So I find that the people who are really taking They feel it's their mission to be a master Surfing. They're gonna act different than somebody who's just You know a temporary fix they're gonna do for a while or there You know they want to show off or they want to excel or they have a death wish I watched a kid almost kill himself doing extreme sports and extreme Surfing Nearly killed himself it almost became a quadriplegic, and I did watch a guy become quadriplegic. I've seen him so because of those Not really taking care of themselves.
Yeah So I'm not saying that people will but I'm just I've seen it yeah if you're really you're gonna want to you're gonna Have to think long -term because a lot of Surfing are out there in the Sun and they wipe out their skin and by the time They're 40s 50s and 60s They're filled with melanoma.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so again Surfing will inspire you to eat better live better.
Dr. John Demartini
They've been drinking too much partying too much drugging too much some of them and Not really thinking long term and that catches you That eventually catches you it can shorten the lifespan of the surfer and the life of the Surfing yeah there was a guy in La Libertad El Salvador That's that there was an octagon house right in front of the best point at La Libertad by the river mouth And I used to Surfing there and when the big swells there It's such a beautiful right magnificent right and you can ride it like for a long time sometimes it gets 40 foot faces it just goes peels off all the way into the back and This guy was 40 something years old when I was there, and he was in better shape than any 20 30 year old guy better More toned etc He even though he was in a La Libertad, and that's not known for health foods.
He had organic food Organic gardens he had whole grains he had Fish I mean he ate wisely and he lived on that octagon and he lived for Surfing and he was there and He surfed every day no matter what those out there. He was out there surfing But he went out there early in the morning. He was out there in the evening, and he didn't overdo the Sun he was smart and He's endurant and very few people could keep up with him in his 40s He was doing stuff that people today are doing but in those days nobody did Nobody was Doing 360s repeatedly down the wave and nobody was coming out of the water and coming back down in the end of the surface Back in the you know early 70s That just wasn't you didn't see much of that But he was already doing that and nobody even knew about the guy he was nobody in any Surfing movie it was Actually Jerry Lopez that came down there and met this guy watched him and befriended him and then He kind of made a story about him one time in a Surfing magazine Other than that the guy was just a dedicated surfer who worked bought land so he could own that surf spot And he had a surf spot. That was his space.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Excellent well we've run out of time John But I thank you so much for your time It's been invaluable and I urge anyone listening out there who's been inspired by John's words to go and check out Some of more of John's material can't I can't recommend his books and courses enough. Thank you Thank you Thanks for tuning in to the surf Mastery podcast again.
Dr. John Demartini
John Thank you. Thanks for giving me a chance to Talk about Surfing. Thank you.
Michael Frampton
I'm your host Michael Frampton Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends Check us out on Facebook at Surfing Mastery surf and if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating That be awesome until next time keep Surfing.
016: JARRED HANCOX - New Zealand National Champ (35+) 2016
Aug 30, 2016
Pic: Daniel Valaperta
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Unlocking Peak Surfing Performance with Jarred Hancox
Is it ever too late to achieve greatness in surfing? Meet Jarred Hancox, New Zealand’s two-time national champion, who proves that it’s never too late to break barriers and elevate your surfing game.
Have you hit a plateau in your surfing or wonder how to maintain peak performance as you age? This episode dives deep into the mindset, training, and lifestyle adjustments that can transform your surfing—whether you’re chasing bigger waves, improving your turns, or keeping the stroke alive.
Discover the secrets of longevity in surfing, from mobility training to smart diet tweaks that fuel peak performance.
Learn how surf trips to high-energy breaks like Indonesia and Hawaii can reshape your confidence and skills.
Gain insight into the importance of the right equipment—custom boards, advanced wetsuits, and more—to unlock your surfing potential.
Tune in now to hear Jarred’s inspiring story and actionable advice on how to keep progressing in your surfing journey, no matter where you’re starting from.
Notable Quotes from the Episode
"Just five minutes a day on your problem areas can make a huge difference within a week."
"The right equipment turns you into the limiting factor, not your board."
"Whether you’re surfing G-Land or your home break, it’s all about preparation and having something to call upon in the memory banks."
"Life is short—chase your passion for surfing and keep things simple. The rat race will still be there."
"Even if you love your TV shows, multitask—stretch, roll, or work on mobility while you watch."
Jarred Hancox - Sponsored surfer from Taranaki New Zealand talks about how surf coaching, nutrition, training, and equipment refinement helped him go from a good surfer in his twenties to NZ (35+) National champ in his thirties.
Results: New Zealand National Champion Over 28s in 2010 & 2011; New Zealand National Champion Over 35s in 2016; Taranaki Surfing Champs Winner 2012; 4 x Opunake Classic winner, 8 x New Plymouth Club Champs winner; 3 x Growcott Memorial Winner; plus many other wins in local events and events around New Zealand. As well as scoring the cover shot on NZ Surf Mag.
Jarred Hancox didn't start getting coaching and focused training until his 20s, which is considered late for most surfers, but he still managed to win national titles and get featured on magazine covers.
Jarred emphasized the importance of consistency in surfing, proper diet, mobility work, video analysis, and getting coaching to improve technique.
Jarred discussed the benefits of positive self-talk and breathing techniques to stay focused during competitions.
Surfing trips to powerful waves like in Indonesia helped Jarred gain confidence and improve his surfing in all conditions.
Jarred highlighted the importance of not sacrificing surfing for the pursuit of money and keeping a balance between work and surfing passion.
Jarred advised listeners to keep things simple in life and prioritize surfing if it's their true passion.
Jarred mentioned his favorite surfers, including Mick Fanning, Matt Wilkinson, and the Brazilian goofy footers.
Jarred's favorite surfboard model is the Wunder Elite, and he has made surf movies called 'Taranaki Terror 1, 2, and 3' featuring himself and his friends surfing.
Outline
Jarred Hancox's Surfing Journey
Jarred Hancox is a sponsored surfer from New Zealand who won national titles in the over-28 and over-35 divisions in 2010, 2011, and 2016.
Numerous competitions have been won by Jarred in their local area of Taranaki.
Jarred's surfing journey is notable because they didn't focus intensively on improving their surfing until their 20s, which is considered late by many.
Significant elevation of one's surfing abilities is possible even when starting focused training later in life, as demonstrated by Jarred.
Through dedicated effort and training, Jarred went from being a good local surfer in their early 20s to winning national titles and getting magazine cover shots in their 30s.
Consistency in Surfing Practice
Consistency in surfing practice is crucial for maintaining and improving skills.
Regular surfing sessions are important, as long periods out of the water can lead to regression in surfing ability.
Diet and Hydration
Diet plays a significant role in surfing performance, with gradual improvements leading to an organic approach.
A balanced diet with adequate carbohydrates provides necessary energy for surfing's high calorie-burning nature.
Proper hydration is critical, especially during competitions, with nutrition and hydration levels needing to be dialed in for contest days.
Coaching and Video Analysis
Coaching was a key factor in improvement, with several coaches like Martin Dunn, Dave Davidson, and Gary Cruickshank contributing.
Coaching helped with wave selection, wave usage, and determining the best maneuvers for different wave sections.
Video analysis of one's surfing is an effective tool for identifying areas for enhancement.
Strength Training and Mobility Work
Strength training on land complements in-water practice and helps improve overall surfing performance.
Mobility work is crucial for maintaining joint health and preventing injuries, using tools like foam rollers, golf balls, and lacrosse balls.
Specific areas targeted include hip flexors, shoulders, knees, and ankles.
Yoga and Warm-Up Routines
Yoga was beneficial, particularly in their early 20s, balancing energy flow and promoting calmness.
Targeted mobility work has become more of a focus now, though yoga is still valued.
Warm-up routines before surfing are essential, especially in cold conditions, involving exercises like split squats and shoulder warm-ups.
Paddling Technique and Mental Strategies
Proper paddling technique is important to prevent wear on joints, particularly shoulders, avoiding early injuries.
Positive self-talk during competitions helps maintain focus and confidence, using mental strategies to stay motivated and perform best during heats.
Breathing exercises help manage excitement and prevent poor decision-making during competitive heats.
Surfing Trips and Challenging Conditions
Surfing trips to locations with powerful waves, like Indonesia, significantly improve surfing skills.
Experiencing faster, more powerful waves helps surfers adapt and improve their skills at home breaks.
Challenging oneself in bigger, more powerful waves leads to increased confidence and faster reaction times in all conditions.
Practicing in small, soft waves enhances overall surfing ability by improving attention to detail and wave reading skills.
Balancing Life and Surfing
Maintaining a balance between surfing passion and other life aspects is advocated, suggesting not becoming overly consumed by career pursuits at the expense of surfing time.
Having a non-surfing hobby or job provides a healthy break and prevents burnout from surfing.
Simplifying life and avoiding unnecessary financial burdens allows more time for surfing.
Daily Practice and Aging
Consistent, daily practice in areas needing improvement, even for short periods, yields significant benefits over time.
Maintaining surfing ability as one ages is considered a form of progression in itself.
Incorporating beneficial activities, like mobility work, into daily routines, even while engaging in leisure activities like watching TV, is suggested.
Transcription
And because you're more confident, I think your reaction time for takeoffs and things improves as well.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better. Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast.
Michael Frampton
Today's guest is Jarred Hancox. Jarred is a sponsored surfer from New Zealand. In 2010 and 2011, he was New Zealand's national champ in the over 28 division.
And in 2016, this year, he was the national champ in the over 35s division. Jarred's also won a bunch of competitions within his local area, Taranaki in New Zealand. And basically, Jarred Ripps.
Jarred, I've known for quite a long time. And the reason I wanted to interview Jarred was because back when I first met him in his early 20s, he was one of the better surfers around. Back then, if you had asked me, oh, well, do you think Jarred will win a New Zealand title or get a cover on a magazine or anything like that, I would have said no.
And he proved me wrong and a lot of his peers wrong, I think. And you see a lot of groms at around the age of 10 start to really focus on their surfing and they get coaching done and they start doing training and they really start doing surf trips. But Jarred didn't really do that until he was in his 20s.
I think now most people would say, you know, that's too late. And I think that's what's really inspirational about Jarred is, you know, he proved to us that it's not too late to go on that journey of really, you know, breaking down your surfing, getting coaching done, things like that. So that's what we sort of, that's how we start the conversation actually.
I hope you enjoy. So you didn't win a national title until you were over 28?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's right. And I was in that division. I think the first, no, the second time I won a over 28 title that year, I also got my best ever result in the Opens where I got to the semi-finals of the Opens.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And how old were you, 28 years old then? No, I think I was about 30.
Okay.
Jarred Hancox
Yep, or 30 or 31.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, because I remember when I first, you know, saw you surf, you would have been in your early 20s, I guess. That's right. And, you know, you were definitely one of the better surfers around Taranaki, but at the same time, you probably weren't quite good enough to be national champ or to have the cover shot on a surfing magazine.
And then now in your 30s, that's two things you've achieved. So what I want to know is what changed, what did you do through your mid to late 20s that helped you to become, you know, helped your surfing to go to the next level where you were worthy of a national title, obviously, and a cover shot on New Zealand Surfing Magazine. What did you do?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's a good question, I suppose. How do you get from taking another level, going into your 30s where I see a lot of guys and friends go backwards a level from that one decade to the next? I guess just consistency.
And I was talking to a guy yesterday who's 67 and he's still surfing on a very regular basis. And he said for him, and this is probably a bit of insight for us all, he said for him, he's found that you've just got to keep doing it. And the more you make excuses, the more you will keep out of the water and you'll find it easier to keep out of the water.
But as soon as you start spending long periods of time out of the water, you're gonna, your surfing goes backwards. Obviously, when you're in your 60s, surfing's not gonna necessarily be amazing. But obviously, in your 20s, 30s and 40s, possibly your 50s, you can still surf at a really high performance level if you maintain.
And I think it's just that consistency, but then not just that, because when you're surfing consistently, it's such a high demand on the body. So you've got to have your diet good, you've got to have your body in a neutral sort of state, which requires yoga and well, probably more precisely, what I thought these days is mobility work, whether you're using a hard ball or something to smash apart, gripping your muscles, and good sleep. What we've talked about before, Mike, is where we can video ourselves and analyze our technique, get a bit of coaching and a bit of strength training on land.
Yeah, and just trying to maintain at least that level that you're at in your 20s, and with the goal of only improving that level.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so one of the things you did was change your diet.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, I think once I got, I don't know when that happened, I think right through my 20s and even into my 30s, I have slowly tried to make my diet better and better to the point of, I think in the last one and a half years, I've been, I've gone more organic. And I don't actually, I don't try and go crazy on the protein or anything. I just try and do what works for me, which is just a medium amount of protein and just plenty of carbs and fats.
I think lots of carbs is really important for surfing because you're just burning so many calories. And I find if I just try and go on a real high protein diet, I just run out of that fast sort of tick, tick, tick, tick energy. So yeah, just a good healthy balanced diet that works for you.
I mean, another guy might be different to me. He might find that he needs more protein. I've got friends that have hardly any carbs and they go full on with the protein and they do a lot of gym and surfing.
I noticed they're not really fast in the surf. They go more for the gain.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I guess the key concept is that you've got to have the mindset of you want to improve your diet. Now, obviously that's going to take a little bit of experimentation.
You got to try a few diets and see how you feel on them, try different foods and see how you feel on them. And that's what you've done. And you've seen, you've accounted that to some of your results in your surfing, which is, you can't deny that.
And you also mentioned coaching. Is there any particular coach that you used?
Jarred Hancox
I've actually done quite a few coaches. I just want to touch back on that food subject quickly. I think it's really important to have dialed in what works for you on the contest day and through, you might be at the nationals for a week, so you've got to be really dialed in before the heat and after the heat.
And hydration, knowing the levels of hydration you need is actually extremely critical. It's very underrated, the hydration.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point.
So do you find that you eat a lot less on competition day?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. I try not to eat anything too heavy. And if I do, it's probably going to be after I've finished surfing for the day.
So pretty much just try and keep eating. But I don't eat anything extreme through the day. It's a fairly light but wholesome breakfast, cereals and stuff, and then maybe some banana sandwiches through the day or such and fruit.
So back to coaching again. I've had a few coaches in the past. I think the first ever coach was the guy you interviewed on another podcast, Martin Dunn.
So he was my foundation coach, so to speak. I've had coaching from him from the age of 21 all the way to my late 20s, I think. I had on and off sessions with him.
Sometimes I was at his home in Old Bar in Australia, or a couple of times he actually came to Taranaki. So I got the benefit of getting coached at my home breaks as well as away in Australia. But getting coached on your home breaks is pretty awesome because that's where you're practicing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And what are some key changes you made through the coaching sessions?
Jarred Hancox
For Martin's original stuff, it was the wave selection, wave usage, where you're trying to surf the wave and what you're trying to do with your first turn and that sort of stuff. I wasn't really doing anything spectacular from his first lot of coaching. I was just trying to apply all the theory.
Then, of course, once you get more confident with how you're doing things, you start applying your speed and power to it. And that's when you can start doing your bigger turns. And I also got coaching from Dave Davidson on the Gold Coast.
He's done a little bit of coaching with me. He was a former World Tour surfer.
Michael Frampton
Dave, oh, yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. A bit of coaching at G-Land from him. And also I stayed with him on the Gold Coast at Rainbow Bay and we did a bit of stuff at Snapper Rocks.
And also Gary Cruickshank. He's an Aussie surf coach that was with the High Performance Center for a number of years, especially in its earlier years. He used to actually come over to Taranaki every year and do coaching with a squad of us surfers around here.
Michael Frampton
So if we go back to when you first started getting coaching done, it was all about wave selection and the right choice of maneuver for the particular part and shape of the wave. And that's really, did that sort of really help to develop your rhythm in surfing?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you want to be good at contest surfing and just look good in general when you're out free surfing, you know, foremost is it's like a painter needs a good canvas to make his painting look good. So you really need to be selecting waves.
Well, here I am giving a surf coaching spiel, but yeah, you want to get a good wave to make your turns look good. And then just the sort of lines you draw on the wave and what maneuvers you're trying to do with what sections. That's really, really foundational stuff.
And then if that's your foundation, you can really build up a great foundation and just start to really build your surfing. And because I set that up from my early twenties, which is quite late, most grommets are doing it now from the age of 10 or such, but either way, I still set it up in the early twenties. So for the rest of my life since then, the last 15 years, that's been my foundation.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Was it a frustrating process?
Jarred Hancox
A frustrating what, sorry?
Michael Frampton
Was it a process like changing the way you approach surfing?
Jarred Hancox
Not at all, because I was doing all this stuff anyway, but I didn't have any guidance. So with guidance, I suddenly had direction and I actually felt it actually pushed me and made me feel really good about going surfing because I felt like I had something to aim for.
Michael Frampton
Hmm.
Jarred Hancox
Hmm. I've always loved getting coaching and getting video footage and going over it. It's awesome.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And what was your thing to aim for? What motivates you to get better?
Jarred Hancox
I don't know, to be honest. I guess I'm quite competitive, so I really want to get good results when I go in contests and I really like to, I guess, put on a show, so to speak. So I go for a surf and I want to surf.
And I heard you talking about this with Nat Granger, you go out and surf, you want to surf your best because it makes you feel good. So pretty simple drivers there, Mike, I think, just wanting to surf good, wanting to put on a show, wanting people to be, oh wow, that was good surfing, man. You might have done thousands of hours of hard work for that moment, but just to be able to go out and just surf good, that's just the best feeling ever, I think.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So thousands of hours of work behind it.
Jarred Hancox
I guess so, yeah.
Michael Frampton
That's a key concept. I think a lot of people just don't realize how much work that goes on behind the scenes for a lot of these good surfers, you know. So many hours spent getting coaching done and footage and, you know, playing with diet and training and things, so.
Jarred Hancox
What do they say, 10,000 hours to become an expert?
Michael Frampton
That's the one. That's the one. And then with surfing, it takes even longer because, you know, as you know, you don't spend the whole time in the water actually surfing waves.
Jarred Hancox
That's right, yeah, for sure. So you're actually spending a lot of time getting good at paddling.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. That's a big, I'll tell you, that's another big thing for surfing and longevity and getting better as you're getting older is just having good technique with your paddling and even the way you're doing some of your power turns and that because if something's a little bit out, you're actually going to wear down the life of the joints considerably. For example, slouched shoulders, you're going to start wearing out the joint really quick and then you're going to have a bung shoulder by the time you're 40 or 30 or, you know, people are doing injuries at a young age in surfing and it's really important to keep all those joints supple and free.
Michael Frampton
Yes, yeah, definitely. And you actually did an interview with Rob Case, which I'll put a link to in the show notes for those listening, about paddling technique and how important it is and things. But you mentioned one of those things that you do is yoga to help that.
Jarred Hancox
I started doing yoga. I got a yoga book for my 22nd birthday and that was about the time I started yoga and that was really beneficial. These days, I find yoga, the most beneficial part of yoga is just getting your energy flow balance and getting yourself calm in an otherwise hectic world that, you know, the Western rat race, so to speak.
And I don't actually put as much emphasis into the stretching out of one's self. I actually focus more now on specific areas that need mobility work. For example, my hip flexors or my shoulders or my knee or my ankle.
So I'm doing all sorts of stuff now that's actually, I don't know if you heard of Kelly Starrett, but I've been doing a fair amount of mobility work that he teaches. Wrapping your ankle up in what they call a voodoo band and you're almost cutting off your circulation and then doing a bunch of movements for a minute or two, then releasing it. Just random stuff like that.
Like I said earlier, also using a foam roller, using golf balls, tennis balls, lacrosse balls, all sorts of stuff just to smash apart stuff that needs smashing apart and getting the joint to be able to sit in a nice neutral position.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, kellystarrettmobilitywod.com. Definitely an awesome resource. He's got a YouTube channel, heaps of free stuff.
So yeah, I encourage anyone to check that out for sure. I guess, yeah, as we get older, those niggles start to start to creep up on us. But as you said, it's pretty easy.
There's only a little bit of work you need to do. A bit of yoga, a bit of mobility stuff to keep on top of it and you can just keep surfing. Like you said, at a high level through your 30s, 40s and definitely your 50s.
Jarred Hancox
I'll tell you what, I've had periods like a couple of, probably a month ago, I was doing so much surfing, one period that my hip, something in my hip went so sore and stiff, I swear to God, it felt like I was going to need a hip operation. I just thought, right, I've just overdone it. I've overdone my hip, all these top turns and rears and bottom turns and I was limping and everything.
And the last couple of weeks, just from changing a bit of my mobility work, it's 100%. And I've just surfed nine days straight in all sorts of conditions, and including competing in a contest on one day and I feel great. So it's just, their mobility work is so crucial.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So when do you do it typically?
Jarred Hancox
Actually, that's just reminding me of another crucial thing. But yeah, mobility work, generally, I'll try and do it before bed because you're going to bed and in theory you've relaxed out stuff, you've done stuff that's equivalent to a massage perhaps, and you go to sleep, your body repairs in a much better state. But I do certain mobility things before I surf as well, I make sure I'm nice and the muscles are fired up, but that's sort of more coming back to warm up.
And that's actually something I forgot to mention. And I can't say it's important enough that warming up before a surf is so crucial. And it's cold here in Taranaki and it's been like single digits in the morning and pumping surf, single digit, you imagine you get down to the carpark, you've got to get in a damp wetsuit, damp booties and paddle out.
And if you're already cold and you're adding to that cold, you're going out and you're trying to surf good on a wave, it's just an injury waiting to happen, in my opinion. So I'll spend about, I don't mind spending 20 minutes, at least 10 minutes at home in the warmth, a bit of exercise, doing some split squats and a few shoulder warm ups and just a few basic things, a bit of Swiss ball warm ups and yeah, just really get all those muscles fired up, even a hot shower before you do all that, just to totally warm you up.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, it does get cold in New Zealand. So do you have any other pre-surf rituals?
Jarred Hancox
Just make sure you're not too dehydrated, otherwise you're going to be extra dehydrated after a surf. But no, basically just doing warm ups, doing warm ups on the beach is cool, especially sandbars, because you can watch what the beach is doing and where the sandbars are and how they're breaking. You might see two or three sets in the time you're doing a warm up on the beach.
So I reckon just warm ups, mate. And yeah, just warm ups is the biggest key for pre-surf.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And in competition surfing, do you have anything that you think about or focus on your breathing maybe while you're waiting in between sets?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, breathing can definitely help because you can get overexcited in a heat and you can make bad decisions as a result of that overexcitement. So sometimes you just need to slow everything down and take a few deep breaths. I also use a bit of positive self-talk, something Martin Dunn touched on with me in the early days, and that was, you know, you get a wave and you mentally talk yourself.
You're like, right, I've just got one good wave. I need to go out and get a backup. Then you get your backup, then you're like, right, I need to go out and get a wave at least as good as that backup.
And you can say other little things to yourself too. You can say, oh, hey, that was a really good wave. I was really happy with how I smashed that wave or just anything that gets you feeling good about your performance, because ultimately you're the only one that can back yourself and mentally drive yourself to perform your best.
So you really need that. You can't have any doubt about your ability.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess it also keeps your mind focused on surfing and not other stuff as well.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And depending on what event you're at, like I know, you know, some guys are going to QS's where the first heat they're surfing in is like a full-blown final. You know, there's so many good surfers that there's no easy heats these days on the QS, I'd imagine.
But for me, you know, I've got a local club comp event, and I suppose there's a lot of guys that just do club comps. And you might have to surf three or four heats in the day, maybe five. So it becomes a day of endurance.
So you have to be clever about those first few heats, so you're not peaking too early. And that's where, you know, you've got to be like, right, okay, who's in my first heat? Okay, I don't have anyone too crazy in these first heats, because the draw's spread out.
So you don't have to go 100% in the first heat. And I think Kelly Slater touches on that in his book, Pipe Dreams, he wrote many years ago. He would just do enough.
To get through the heat.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Pacing yourself. And that's the thing, I'll tell you what's been really difficult in New Zealand, and Australia, I'm sure, when you go to the Nationals, you've normally got a week-long campaign there, if you're probably going to get from your first heat to the final. So you've got to make sacrifices, you've got to get a good night's sleep every night, you can't go freesurfing too much, you know, I might just go for one quick freesurf, and then have my heat rest for the rest of the day, because you know, you might have a heat almost every day, especially if you're doing two or three divisions.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so what else has, what about dry land training? Apart from yoga, have you got any other sort of training regimes that you do that have helped you progress?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, for sure, and like I said, I have, I don't do anywhere near as much full-blown stretch-outs like I used to. I used to go hard out with the stretching, but I have talked to yogis and stuff, and they've said, you don't want to try and get past a certain point of flexibility, because then you start going into the joints more, and that's when your joints can become quite a little bit loose, and you've got more chance of dislocating joints. So really, yoga for me is just, it's just maintenance yoga.
Just keep me at a certain level of flexibility. So yeah, strength training, speed training is probably the other two big things for me.
Michael Frampton
What do you mean by speed training?
Jarred Hancox
Not so much cardio. I don't do much cardio, to be honest, because I surf so much, and I'm a believer that surfing, when you're surfing high performance and you're really going for it, it's a intensely cardiovascular sport, and speed training for me is maybe just a bit of skipping, and I don't really do much more than skipping, to be honest, for speed training, but I find that gets my fast twitch really good when I'm out on the wave.
It gives me a really nice rhythm. Strength training, foundationally, I like to do a little bit of the core sort of bench press, but not too much bench press. Squats, deadlifts, I've only started doing these three in the last three years.
I don't do them a lot, admittedly, but I have found I've had a great effect in terms of giving me a stronger back, stronger knees, because the muscles around my knees are stronger, and putting my shoulders into a good position from concentrating on a really good bench press technique, and then there's all sorts of other things. Sometimes I do body weight stuff with those TRX straps that dangle down, and you've got the handles on them, you can do a whole lot of stuff with them. Swiss ball, stuff with your Swiss ball, it's always good, yeah.
Michael Frampton
All right, so yoga for balancing the body and keeping mobile. You've got Kelly Starrett, some of his stuff for your mobility, a bit of, let's call it power lifting, squat, bench press, deadlift, a bit of body weight strength training, a bit of speed work as in skipping. It sounds like a pretty well-rounded surf training program.
I might add to that as well, because Jarred's quite flexible and mobile, which is quite common with a lot of surfers, being almost hypermobile, so definitely reiterate what you said about not pushing it too far in yoga.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's just about that balance. You've got to remember that you're doing all this stuff on land for surfing. You're not doing all this stuff on land to be a yogi, or be a powerlifter, or be a one-hour skipper.
I just sort of just do everything in moderation. When I powerlift, my gym friends that go to the gym all the time, they laugh at me. They go, oh, what do you call that sort of weight?
But I don't care. I'm not powerlifting to be a powerlifter. I'm powerlifting just to keep the movement and just to keep the muscles at a nice tone.
I'm not trying to grow massive muscles. Yeah, so just not overdoing it. I think that's the biggest key in surf training is just, yeah, don't go too crazy.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
Jarred Hancox
Go crazy on the way by all means. That's why you've done all your land training, but if you've been going crazy on land, you're probably going to sort of, if you haven't injured yourself already, you know, you might find yourself more susceptible to becoming injured because you've stressed certain joints and muscles out to the max.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Has there ever been a stage in your life where your surfing has gone backwards?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yep, I would say so. Yeah, I remember when I first started working at a non-surfing job, it was only about three or four years ago, I started working in real estate. So I'm a real estate agent now and that offers great flexibility.
In terms of your hours and when you can and can't surf, that's great. But for sure, the first six months of doing that, I actually, I actually sort of lost interest in surfing a bit. I was quite focused on just the work side of things.
And for the first time in my life, first time since a kid, I got chubby. I put on over 10% of my normal body weight. So I went from, I'm lightweight, I'm normally 60 kilos.
I went up to about 68. I was struggling to catch waves. Boards weren't going as good and I just didn't look in great shape.
And so I went and ordered three new surfboards that had more volume and that got me quite amped. I was having more fun again and I quickly lost the weight and sort of never looked back, you know. I just sort of kept, I just realised then, I was like, man, even if I'm not enjoying my surfing, I've just got to do it at least a few times a week just to maintain because, okay, I might be stale on my surfing right now, but it always comes back in waves, you know.
So surfing to me is not always an amazing feeling because I've been doing it for so long, but you can't avoid those little waves of negativity. But in saying that, lately, I feel like the last year I've changed board sponsors. So I've got different boards.
I'm really amped on my surfboards. So I'll be… I've got a new wetsuit sponsor, I'm feeling good in a new wetsuit, and I'm just amped, man. I've been surfing a lot more, eh? And I've got my mobility dialed in, so I'm not getting so sore.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So, if we go back to that time when your surfing went downhill, obviously you were focused on other things at the time, but, did that, when you noticed that you weren't surfing as well, you're a little bit heavier, is that something that motivated you to start surfing at an even higher level?
Jarred Hancox
No, no, funnily enough, I hadn't sort of been at that weight for so long, I was just, forever, so I was like, kind of like, oh, this is kind of cool for a change, or, as strange as that sounds, I was like, for once I'm not like a skinny stick, and I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. But yeah, I don't think I, I don't know, it was a phase there where I just lost interest in how well I was performing in the surf. Why?
I don't know, maybe I needed to, maybe I was stale on the surfboards I was riding, maybe I needed to change shapers, or, yeah, I don't know, I felt like I'd, I felt like I'd peaked, I felt like I couldn't surf any better.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Yeah. So you hit a plateau.
Jarred Hancox
I reckon I did, I'd spent so much time in Indonesia, I'd been barreled as much as any human could probably want to be barreled, and yeah, I felt like I peaked.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so what what do you think got you past that plateau?
Jarred Hancox
Changing changing surfboard shapers, just something fresh, something new. As it turned out, my surfing has actually improved as a result.
Michael Frampton
So equipment, yeah. So, but what motivated you, what motivated you to seek out different equipment?
Jarred Hancox
Just keeping an open mind, I think, right. The shaper that, from Australia, he's Wondershapes, and he's actually a Gavin Upson, he's originally from one of the towns in Taranaki called Waitara, and so he's actually got a local connection, and he actually came here two years in a row doing demo days where he had some boards he could try, and I just, I was just keeping an open mind, I didn't want to jump ship or anything from my local shaper, and I just tried his boards both years, and in the end, I was just like, oh, hang on, I'm actually, this feels really good. I kept trying them, and yeah, I don't know, man, I just couldn't deny it. They felt really good, and I wanted to start working with them, so I said to him, hey, would, if you're keen for me to be on your team, I'll be keen to be on your team, and he said, yeah, and so we've developed a really good relationship there, and he's one of those shapers that really takes you seriously, and really thinks it out, and analyzes, and watches you surf, and really tries to incorporate into your shapes what he thinks will be best for you directly, not just the general surfer.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay, so getting custom surfboards has helped you to get over that plateau?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, definitely, getting custom surfboards off a shaper that just relates well with me, so I think it's just important to be able to find that shape, a surfer-shaper relationship can make a huge difference.
Michael Frampton
Okay, and let's give, what's his website? Let's give him a shout out.
Jarred Hancox
Wondershapes, so it's like the number one.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
It's hyphen D-A.
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, and you'll probably find the website just doing that.
Michael Frampton
Yep, cool. Wondershapes, and I'll put a link to his website on the show notes anyway for those that want to look that up, but okay, awesome.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, well he used to be the head ghost shaper at PHD, so he was actually doing the shapes for some of the top surfers in the world, and he's got a lot of experience, and it feels like that under your feet, so yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and it's interesting that he actually went out and made the effort to watch you surf, and so he's obviously got a little bit of coaching surf technique background as well.
Jarred Hancox
No, he doesn't, but the way he went up, because I went to the Gold Coast recently to work with him with my latest quiver, he watched me at D-Bar, and it was funny because he was watching me, and I thought, oh, he'll just watch the whole surf, and he waves me in after like 30 minutes. I thought, oh, that's weird, so I walk in and he goes, I want to see you go and do this, and do that, and do this or this, and this or that, and I'm like, okay, and it actually felt like I was getting a coaching session, so I went out and I was doing what he said, and he said, I came back in again, he goes, cool, okay, yep, I can see you, we'll try, and then he goes, and I can see that I need to do this to your board, and that to your boards, and these changes to allow you to do what I want to see you doing on the wave, so without him hardly realizing that people have told him, he could easily be a surf coach.
Michael Frampton
Okay, okay, so he's watching the way you surf from the perspective of, how do I shape a board so that you can actually progress your surfing, not just enjoy it?
Jarred Hancox
Exactly, which for me is like the ultimate combo, someone who can watch you on the beach, or at least you can send them some surfing footage, and he can go, all right, I think this is the kind of board I need to make for him to allow him to surf at a better level, so yeah, for me, that's exciting, and that stokes the passion with surfing.
Michael Frampton
Yep, okay, surfing in the cold, your wetsuit is pretty important. I think it's, I think the importance of wetsuits, and choosing the right one for the day, and making sure it fits properly, making sure you put it on properly as well.
Jarred Hancox
Oh, yeah, for sure, and you've got to think, you're wearing, say, a full-blown steamer and booties, and that steamer's getting soaked with water, so it just, you carry a lot of extra weight, so that's not going to impact on the volume of your board.
Michael Frampton
Yep.
Jarred Hancox
Yep, so around here, you don't, you want to go on the higher side of what volume you think you would have, if you want a little bit more again.
Michael Frampton
And who, you said you'd changed wetsuit sponsors, can you tell us why?
Jarred Hancox
Well, what I consider to be, you know, one of the best wetsuit companies, I've got to sell wetsuits for a good 10 years, and I love their suits, they were awesome, they were flexible, they were, I couldn't complain, and you know, so I, you know, wear my 4-3 through the winter, and cold days, usually have a vest and a hood as well, and booties, and actually, a friend of mine in my city, he started getting in Mapoose, so it's called M-A-P-O-O-S-E, Mapoose suits, wetsuits, and local girl who's been on the world tour, Paige Harab, she's actually responsible of them too, and he said, hey, you want to, you want to ride these suits, I'll hook you up, I said, I thought about it for about a month, because, you know, loved Excel so long, and I put a bit of research on them, and I thought, actually, they sound pretty cool, I'll give them a go, because the wetsuit material is actually, it's not neoprene, it's called geoprene.
Yeah, they claim, Mapoose claim that they only let in 5% water max, while neoprene is 35% water plus, over time, it breaks down.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I've got a Mapoose wetsuit in my wetsuit quiver as well, and the first thing you notice, I noticed a couple of things, was one, they, they're not quite as stretchy, but they fit better, so they're more fitted, and yeah, they take on far less water, like you, you, you can, especially when you rinse it out, and lift it up, you just realize how much water your old wetsuit holds, and obviously that's being held while you, you know, when you stand up, so they're definitely a lot lighter, and just, it's just a nicer material as well, nice and soft, and
Jarred Hancox
they're using some sort of, it's almost like Ironman stuff, have you actually surfed your Mapoose wetsuit very much, because at my first handful of surfs, it was a little bit tight, and then it actually came really flexy, and Paige said the same thing, and interestingly enough, I've, I've been wearing a three mil, just a full three mil suit, all winter, on the very coldest days, I haven't needed more than that, of course, I've got booties on, because I get cold feet, and a hood, but I haven't had to wear a vest or anything as well, you know, it's, it's actually blind me away, the wind is not getting through that three mil, it's not making me cold like, you know, any other wetsuit I used to wear.
Michael Frampton
Nice.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, I think technology is quite something that can get you quite excited when you're getting new technologies.
Michael Frampton
Oh man, totally agree, you know, it's the last thing you want to be is either too cold or too hot in the water, you want to be just nice, just right.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, or too heavy, you know, if you've got an older wetsuit that's taken a lot of water, and it's extra thick, because it's cold, you need a five mil wetsuit, because it's cold, and you need that warmth, but the latest wetsuit, you might get away with a three mil, the tooth, and you're just, and it's taken on less water, and you're just so light on the surface, it makes a big difference.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and another thought I had with those wetsuits as well is, have you heard of the principles, you know, whatever you put on your skin, essentially, you're drinking. So, you know, the most extreme example would be, you know, if you rub a bit of cyanide into your skin, you know, it's going to kill you just as it would as if you ate it. Now, obviously, if you're wearing neoprene rubber made from petroleum, you're soaking some of those chemicals in through your skin, but the Matus wetsuits, they make them from limestone, which is obviously a less toxic material than neoprene.
So, there's probably a health aspect that comes into it as well. I haven't seen them write about it or talk about it, but it'd be interesting to know if anyone listening knows, please let us know.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, for sure, same with moisturisers. Oh, that's another thing I've cut, I don't know if it helps or not, but even my sunblocks, for the most part now, I just use like an organic sort of zinc, and moisturiser, I don't even buy any moisturisers, I just use coconut oil.
If I ever want to flick my hair for a night out, I'll just use coconut oil. I've really tried to eliminate all strange, unknown substances and chemicals as much as possible. Yeah, I'm not a full-blown hippie on it, I still eat normal stuff and eat, you know, got takeaways and that, but I think just doing anything is better than nothing.
Michael Frampton
Oh, I totally agree, man, you know, if you start reading the ingredients in most sunscreens and most shampoos, and it's like, you know, people don't realise that if you're rubbing it into your skin, you're consuming it. So, when, you know, a zinc oxide-based, just a normal zinc oxide-based sunscreen, actually, I find works better than any commercial-based sunscreen in the surf, because it kind of sticks and stays on you, right? And it's far less toxic than those commercial sunscreens.
Jarred Hancox
Some of those ones even smell like petroleum, but zinc's supposed to be a mineral that's good for you.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
And your skin is like a big mouse.
Michael Frampton
Yep, that's right, man, anything you can do to reduce your overall toxic load is going to help keep your nervous system firing at higher speeds, it's that simple. You know, that's why eating organic food is, you know, there's less pesticides and less herbicides and things in organic foods, so there's less toxic load on your body, so your nervous system is, and your digestion is more efficient, but anyway, we digress. What else has helped your surfing go to the next level?
Jarred Hancox
I sort of, I mean, it might sound bad to any sort of, you know, guys listening that are into a heavy laboring job, because obviously, you know, that's your job, that's your job, but I have been fortunate enough to, you know, I don't know about fortunate, I've just chosen not to do any jobs that are too labor-intensive, so, you know, I think if I'd been doing heavy laboring for the last 10 years as a job, it would have been pretty hard for the body to withstand all that surfing and training and stuff as well, you'd be loading up your back a lot more. I guess you could do it, but you'd just have to be really conscious of your movements during your job, and keeping the right muscle group strong, because I have got friends that are laborers, and they train at the gym all the time, and they surf all the time, and they're in their 40s, and they're doing well, and their only injuries and niggles is from when they played professional rugby, and they've still got plates in their body and stuff from that, or artificial hips at an early age and stuff, so, you know, I've got friends in their 40s, and they really do push the envelope, and they're in great condition apart from, you know, old injuries.
Michael Frampton
I think maybe what you're trying to get at is that, and correct me if I'm wrong, but when you go surfing, that time you spend surfing, that's, for you, that is your most focused and intense physical activity, right?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's my most labor-intensive thing in my life, is the surf, for sure.
Michael Frampton
So even when you're training for surfing, you're still holding back a little bit, because you know that you'd rather put that extra little bit of effort into a man turn?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I mean, the amount of times I've done my powerlifting and gone to an absolute max in a deadlift or a squat is very rare. Normally I'm doing a bit of a load, but I'm not, I'm very rarely am I ever, like, maxing myself out to an animalistic state.
But when I do a carve, when I get a big wall at my local break, like Rocky Point or something, and I want to lay on that rail, I'm just putting a hundred percent, everything into it, putting everything my board can take. And that's where I get amped, you know, but I mean for some people, they get the most satisfaction out of putting that hundred percent into the heaviest squat or the, I don't know, running the fastest hundred meters they can run or what have you.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so that, just the way you were talking about putting everything you've got onto the of your surfboard, maybe that sounds like that particular moment when you've done an awesome turn, is that, is it more of those that motivates you to surf better?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure. And a couple of weeks ago I actually rode a couple of my old boards and I found I couldn't push my turns anywhere near as hard or radical as on my Wonderboards. And I thought, wow, I wonder if this is why I started to get demotivated.
I don't know. I mean, because on my Wonders, I'm going out and it feels like I'm at full throttle. You know, I don't really have much of an excuse.
It's, you know, it's more the jockey than the horse, because if you've got a board that's really, really good for you, you are the limiting factor. But when your equipment is the limiting factor, well, you're going to reach a plateau that you can't get past.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So, okay. So it might be worth folks listening out there that feel like maybe they want to try some new equipment, go out and maybe get some footage and get a good shaper to look at it and get some custom shapes going and see whether that helps.
Jarred Hancox
I've actually got a couple of Wonderboards for some of my friends and they actually, and I've showed Gavin footage of them and they're big guys. They're like 90 kilo plus guys, heavyweight, just full of muscle. And they've always struggled to get good boards, really struggled.
And they're always riding quite often those HS Cryptos and stuff. And, you know, they surf fairly well on them, but they got some customs off Gavin and these Wonders. They just, their surfing is just on like another level, you know, they've started going vertical and they never used to go vertical and starting to do proper bottom turns.
And they've even commented that, you know, they're getting less sore body parts from surfing these boards because they're customized to turn properly for them. Get a good board for you and make sure you've got enough volume. I see so many guys that, you know, they're a bit overweight or they're not quite fit enough and they're riding really thin boards because they're like, if I lose the weight or, oh, but when I get a good wave, but come on, the reality is 95% of more of the surfs you're surfing, the waves aren't going to be that great.
And you're probably not going to be at your peak and you're not going to surf your best. So you're better to have, you know, a board that's counteracting for that little bit of unfitness or a little bit of overweight. And at least from there, you can get heaps of waves, you can have fun, you can get fit from surfing heaps and enjoying it.
And then you can change boards after that. Don't do it the wrong way around.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you mentioned just a little bit earlier that you'd been in Indonesia and got lots of barrels and you kind of felt a little bit demotivated and burnt out from surfing. And obviously the, you know, getting new boards has helped light the fire again.
But do you think, do you think that it's possible to surf too much?
Jarred Hancox
Oh yeah, for sure. It's like anything in life. And it's hard to believe if you've never done it before, if you've never surfed too much before, but you know, you can, you can surf too much.
Surfing is, it's a great thing, but you can definitely do too much of it. And it's taken a little while to happen, but I don't know why, but I've had this feeling that if I did something that was non-surf related in my life to balance things out, I'd enjoy surfing more. And it slowly happened.
I got into real estate, which is not a surfing related job. And I think just having that balance of being able to go work for a while and focus on something completely different than surfing, even if it's a few hours, it really helps keep the freshness in the surfing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. You've got to have that, that work life play balance.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. Or it might be a hobby. You might need a hobby.
You might work in the surf industry, so it's hard to get away from it. So you probably just need a hobby to break it all up. That's not directly related to surfing, whether it is playing golf or, you know, the famous New Zealand surf photographer and world renowned photographer, Corey Scott, because he's so immersed in surfing and he loves it.
You know, he's an awesome photographer and everything, and he still surfs, but he's very passionate now about trout fishing, because that's his escape from the surfing world. Yeah. And it keeps him, it helps keep him fresh when he's back in the surfing world.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So do you, do you find it just creates more hunger for surfing when you, when you step away from surfing and focus on something else?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure. For sure. But you don't want to step away for too long.
Otherwise you completely forget about it. Your muscles start degenerating and you don't want to step away from it for a few months, you know, unless you're injured. You only need to step away.
Sometimes you can just have a week or two off, you know, if you're really, really burnt out on surfing, just have two weeks off, but no, you shouldn't need that long. You should, if you've got the balance right in your life, you should be able to just, and your diet right, and you're having good sleeps, and your boards are good, you'll just be surfing pretty darn consistently because you're feeling good about it and feeling good about yourself.
Michael Frampton
So on your journey towards progressing your surfing, what's some of the biggest obstacles you faced?
Jarred Hancox
Like through the years?
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Any, the first thing that comes to mind?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, the first thing that comes to mind was challenges faced with, um, in my early 20s, you know, obviously I've finished school and then I dropped out of a computer's degree I was doing because I just wanted to surf. And of course, most people will find this, you'll meet resistance from family, from even friends, and there'll be a lot of people that'll probably tell you, you can't do that. You know, older guys that have been in their career for many years, you can't just go surfing, you have to get into a trade, you have to do this or that.
And okay, eventually I had got into the trade of real estate, but I made that surfing thing go crazy for all through my 20s. I guess I, where there's a will, there's a way, you know, and if you want to just thrash it, you want to live the dream and, and I never got stale on it through my 20s. And I thrashed the hell out of surfing.
So if you want to do it, make it happen. And you'll actually start meeting a lot more supportive people if you stick to your guns and you'll end up finding these people that'll help guide you and make it happen. And it might not be an easy path, but you know, you only live once.
And when you look back on it and you go, I did that. I faced a lot of negativity and resistance, but I did it. So obviously you got to keep realistic to a certain degree, but you got to try and be resourceful and make things happen.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Did you struggle with small waves much?
Jarred Hancox
Yes and no. I've never been like a superb aerialist. I've had moments where I've sort of fled in the air, but not, not, not consistently, which is obviously a pretty key component of being a great small wave surfer, I believe, is your aerial game.
So I've never, I've never been a So, but being 60 kilos, I've actually ended up doing quite well in certain contests against bigger guys. You know, when the waves are half, half a foot, one foot, one and a half foot, you can get up quite a bit of speed when you're 60 kilos on the right board. But I'm saying that being that light, you can have that disadvantage of if you get the same section as another guy who's 75 kilos and you do exactly the same turn on exactly the same equipment, I can, with the same speed, I can just about guarantee you he's going to throw a beefier spray, the 75 kilo guy.
Throwing spray in general is something that is harder for me to do at my weight. So for sure I have to work on having the right equipment, the right timing, having to speed up. And yeah, surfing in Indonesia really helped with my forehand with that, you know, learning how to do fast rail turns.
Michael Frampton
Was going on surf trips quite an important, let's call it a strategy for getting better? Like put it this way, if you had just stayed at home and just surfed your home breaks all the time, do you think you would be as good as you are now?
Jarred Hancox
No, I would have just got too stale, I reckon, just surfing day in, day out and the same waves. No, you have to go, you have to travel, you have to surf different waves, even if it's just a quick one or two week break, you need it. You know, I talked about doing something that's non-surfing related, but you can keep your surfing fresh just by doing surfing stuff like surfing different waves, you know, surfing warmer waters or colder waters or whatever, you float your boat.
But yeah, traveling, being in different cultures and environments, it's definitely part of that key of variety.
Michael Frampton
When was your first trip?
Jarred Hancox
Ah, first trip, well, probably the first trip I'd really count overseas for, you know, apart from Australia. I don't really, almost, Australia is a funny one, it's not too much different to New Zealand in some senses, some of the culture. Yeah, when was your first trip to Indo?
That was at the age of 23, so I started going every year after that and I've racked up at least two years straight, well, if you count up all the days, I've racked up at least two years in G-Land alone. I used to work there as a surf guide for a while as well, so that really helped with surfing bigger waves.
Michael Frampton
So was G-Land the first spot you went to?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, Bali and G-Land was the first.
Michael Frampton
What's the first thing you noticed about your first, do you remember your first surf in Indonesia?
Jarred Hancox
Gosh, I can't remember where I first surfed, if it was Uluwatu or one of the beaches, but I just remember how, you know, perfect the waves were and how they raced down the reef and, you know, really draw off the reef quite nice. And then when I got in some bigger, hollower waves, I ended up getting inside barrels so cylindrical that I'd never really experienced that in Taranaki. I only had little barrels here, you know, over there you end up in barrels that you can just stand up in and that's not common for a lot of places.
Experience in the barrel was probably, you know, the major thing in Indonesia and I ended up doing a few trips to Hawaii in my mid to late 20s and that's where I ended up experiencing just waves of just unlimited size, you know, that's just crazy over there, the size and the rawness and the randomness and the rogueness, that was a whole other kettle of fish again.
Michael Frampton
How long was your first trip to Hawaii? Two months. Two months, wow.
Jarred Hancox
Stayed with a family who lived there and they took me to a lot of surfing spots that a lot of tourists probably wouldn't actually know about otherwise, you know, a lot of semi-secret spots and I got to meet a lot more locals than I would have if I was just, you know, a traveling tourist staying down there on the North Shore.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and what's the first thing you noticed when you came back?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, one thing I noticed actually, I came back from a long stint in G-Land, I come back to Taranaki and I remember doing out my local Rocky Point wave and I was thinking how bizarre these waves that used to seem so tall to me and so kind of solid, they just seem so small and slow and less tall than what I've been used to in G-Land and Hawaii of course. Yeah, they're just different. G-Land and Hawaii, the waves just really stand up really tall and they have a lot of girth and they move really fast and you need bigger boards.
As soon as you get back over here, you can be out in some pretty decent waves but you don't need much of a board on you. You can get away with some fairly short boards here, even though you're surfing sometimes double overhead and stuff but you go to double overhead G-Land, you're going to struggle on your shortboard. It's just, even if you catch the wave for a start, which is quite hard to do on a shortboard, you almost feel real skittery and like you don't have enough rail.
Michael Frampton
Yes, I mean you had the chance, obviously you spent so much time over there, to kind of get used to those big fast moving swells that you experienced in Indonesia and Hawaii and do you think that kind of made you or allowed you to surf back home with more rhythm and more speed?
Jarred Hancox
Not necessarily more rhythm and speed but allowed me to surf with more courage perhaps and attack the wave a bit harder and yeah, less fear. I've got a lot less fear now, you know, I'll turn up at my local break and it'll be maxing out like, you know, like freaks most people out, you know, a lot of local guys don't want a bar of it and I'm like, well, it's actually, if I get one of those tips on the head or you know, get caught in the bowl or whatever, it's actually… Fairly intense and I'm going to still need to relax, but it's not going to be like getting caught out by a eight foot set at G-land or a ten foot set at Sunset. It's just not in the same league. And because you're more confident, I think your reaction time for take-offs and things improves as well.
I think a lot of my take-offs have improved in terms of late sort of out of take-offs or committing to a really steep big wave. You've already got it pre-programmed into yourself. So when you do something enough, it becomes more of a routine.
And then you get out of your home break on one of those special, on your baseline, on a special day where you don't get these special days very often when they're really big, macking and clean. And you're already pre-programmed. You've got that pre-programmed routine to call upon just to charge that big drop or bottom turn off the bottom on a triple overhead wave and hook it in the pocket.
It's not something you're trying to learn. You've already learned it. So by going and traveling to these surf meccas like G-land and Hawaii, you just get to be a lot more comfortable in a lot of situations.
You learn to relax when you are caught in a scary moment with a monster set landing on your head, your 15-foot set cleaning out the bay at G-land or something. Yeah, it's just like, okay, I've been there, I've done that. And no matter where you go in the world, you can recall on that.
Like when I went to Hawaii, I got caught out by some massive sets at semi-secret outer reef breaks and 20-foot sets of that. But I just called upon that G-land experience. Okay, I've had big hold-downs at G-land.
I just stayed really relaxed. I just went with it. I didn't fight the turbulence underwater.
And eventually it calms down and then I swim up to the top. So yeah, you've got something to call upon in the memory banks.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Okay. That sounds like that experience was pretty essential.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
For me, I always have to work my way up. So you can't probably get a 15 to 20-foot set on the head and call upon getting a four-foot set on the head for your experience. It's just not the same.
But if you can call upon, okay, I've had a 10 to 12-foot set on the head, you don't want to throw yourself too much into the deep end for safety reasons.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. You want to be smart about it and incrementally progress, which I'm sure was what you were doing on your first trip to G-land, right?
You would have took a few off the shoulder first and maybe missed the first eight to 10-foot day and watched it and then went out when it was six-foot and then, you know, you build up to that, right? You've got to be smart about it.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
You slowly just stretch that comfort line, don't you? You just give it a push every time. Yeah.
Yeah. Until you get to the point where, okay, I'm not going out on that. And I had that in Hawaii once.
Waimea Bay was what they call 20 to 25 feet borderline closeout on the odd set. And I've been surfing it up to 20-foot, which is really big in their standards. But when you've got 20 to 25 feet on most of the sets, right, that's just another level.
And I just drew the line right there and said, you know what, you can drown on that a lot easier. So I just stopped there.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
I think I found my limit. But then if I was in Hawaii more often, perhaps I'd do it eventually. But yeah, everyone has a limit.
Michael Frampton
You've got to test those limits, right? You really do to progress. You've got to face those fears and obviously be smart about it.
But at the end of the day, you've got to have a crack. And on that note of surfing Indo, I mean, I remember my first trip to Indo was the first time I surfed Indonesia. It was about four to five foot Uluwatu.
And I just remember taking off on my first wave and it felt like I was surfing at three times the speed of what I'd ever surfed in my life. And I remember the first couple of days there, I was just going, what? I just hadn't experienced, you know, a wave that just races down the line that fast with that much energy behind it.
And then I can, after a couple of weeks of surfing there, I kind of got used to it and was surfing well. But the biggest thing I noticed was when I came back here to my home break, it's just every condition since that first trip felt so much easier. Because where I usually surf never gets, you don't get 18, 20 second period swells here, you know what I mean?
But when you learn how to surf those big powerful ground swells, then I just found that I was so much more relaxed in all situations. And like you said, you know, when you're confident and you're relaxed, you react faster, you're more in rhythm. So yeah, I think surf trips are hugely important, hugely important for improving your surfing.
Jarred Hancox
That's a good point you touched on. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, you're right, you surf a place like Uluwatu and you're just getting so much speed off the bottom and you're doing your turn, you get on the rail, it's just everything's happening so fast.
And yeah, you're right, you come back home and you end up surfing softer swells and softer waves and you're just going, but why can't I do that same turn? And you have to start actually using your body more to try and generate extra speed to get enough speed to actually do a decent turn that's not doing it for you like at Ulu.
Michael Frampton
That's right, you have to surf tighter and more in the pocket on other waves to get that same kind of feeling. But also, you know, when you start expanding your surfing and improving your surfing, it just opens up the door to so many more different types of waves as well.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt.
Michael Frampton
Like what's the most extreme break that you've surfed? Obviously, Waimea is pretty out there. Would that be the most challenging surf you've had out there?
Jarred Hancox
Probably just like a game. For me, it was like a game of chess. I was trying to just play it right.
I was trying so hard not to get caught by a set and trying to, you know, I was trying to make sure I wasn't going to blow any drops or anything, because I was just like, what if I broke my leggy or there's so many waters? So I was just trying to be really careful. But then in the end, once you've got a bit of confidence up, you start actually charging.
You do start charging a lot harder once you get used to things. But in terms of extreme waves, it's been some crazy extreme barrels I've surfed at in Indonesia. Scar Reef, and we have one amazing wave at Super Suck, which is both on Sambawa.
And in Padang Padang, you get some pretty extreme barrels. And Geeland, of course, there's been times where you've just been in some of the most ridiculous barrels and come out. And it's a funny way, Geeland, you could surf it for five hours, five hours a day for one month straight.
And you might just get one wave in that whole month. But it might just be the most stupidest, ridiculous, amazing barrel ever that you'll struggle to get anywhere in the world. Geeland just doesn't serve it up on a plate.
You've got to kind of work for it and earn it, so to speak. And it can be hard work, Geeland. But it's there, the potential is there.
But you've got to know the reef, you've got to have the right equipment, and you've got to be in the right position. And sometimes there's a little bit of luck, but knowing the certain semi-secret takeoff spots that you can hang out at and wait for the certain rogue wide ones, et cetera.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Oh, man, we've talked about a lot. So let's see if we can give a little summary.
So nutrition is important. Tea, sleep, good sleep. Nutrition and lifestyle.
Yep. Yep. Okay.
And then obviously a bit of training, but keep the body in check, keep the body strong.
Jarred Hancox
Mobility.
Michael Frampton
Yep. And surf coaching. You've got to get your technique right.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure. Equipment.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, boards. That was a big one. We talked about that a lot.
Jarred Hancox
Critical. Wetsuits. Yep.
I reckon, yep, that's a key factor, especially when you're in colder, you know, those who are listening are in colder water. Good wetsuits.
Michael Frampton
Yep. You don't want to get cold. And surf trips, getting into some faster, more powerful waves.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Or you might live in a place where you're always surfing fast, good waves. So if you're trying to take your surfing to the next level, you might need to travel somewhere that you're going to be surfing softer, more hot dog waves.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Tom Carroll, I interviewed him a while back and he mentioned that when Tom Curran came on the scene, he really had to learn how to surf small waves a lot better.
And he actually focused on it solely for a few months, just trying to really find really small, soft waves and learn how to surf them. And he said when he came out of that process, every other aspect of his surfing was better. Because learning how to surf those small waves made him really attentive on the detail of the wave.
The little ripples on the wave and trying to find where the power source is. So I agree, both extremes. Surf the biggest wave you can.
That's one of my goals. I want to surf the biggest wave of my life every winter. Hopefully, for the rest of my life, we'll see.
But also I've been trying to surf the smallest wave I can as well. Okay. Which has been a real challenge.
But it's been really fun. I've learned too. There's been so many surfs recently where it's just so small and soft, and no one else is surfing.
So you always get the line up. I find you always get the line up to yourself when it's like that. Okay.
But another thing you mentioned, which I think is really key, is not surfing too much or at least breaking that up with something else, whether that be a non-surfing job you have and really just focusing on that. Or like you said, a hobby, golf or whatever, if surfing is a bigger part of your life.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure.
Michael Frampton
Jarred, is there anything else? We're running out of time, but are there any parting words, anything else you can talk to listeners about? Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Obviously, if surfing is a big passion of yours, just remember that life will pass us all by. So you really need to try and chase that passion as much as you can. Try not to let the whole rat race devour you.
I've got friends and there's just so much stuff happening in their life. You've got to almost strip things back and go back to the simple things. Don't be too obsessed with buying the biggest, flashiest house you can get with the biggest mortgage because that just means you're going to have to work more.
Don't be obsessed with getting a loan and getting the flashiest car you can get because that's debt you're going to have to pay off. Keep all that stuff just to what you need and then that's only going to equal more time to do what you're passionate about, which if you're listening to this is probably surfing. Yeah, just try and keep everything as simple as possible and just go surfing.
Michael Frampton
So that period of your life where you were just surfing, surfing, surfing and didn't focus too much on your career obviously caught up on you in some ways because then you then had to take a small hiatus of surfing and focus on a trade. But do you ever regret that time you spent surfing? No, not at all.
Jarred Hancox
I mean, okay, I haven't acquired certain assets that I may have acquired if I'd worked hard at a job all those years, but I've acquired experiences and I got into the surf now at a level that I'm happy with. Yeah, I guess I let what was most important to me in life rule my life. And it worked.
Michael Frampton
It worked out awesome and I'm sure that there's many lessons from surfing that you're now applying to real estate. Oh, for sure, mate. For sure.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's right. I've even incorporated my slogan for real estate is Surf to Snow Realtors because we've got the surf on one side of the city and the mountain on the other. So I've actually cheekily incorporated a bit of surfing into the real estate.
So it's, yeah, and I'm quite involved with my local surf club and sometimes I get business out of some of the members there just inadvertently. And so there is a bit of a blend there, Mike, as well. Inadvertently, a bit of the surfing's overlapped into the real estate.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess what you kind of touched on and what I've always wanted to sort of talk about a little bit is that if you're a surfer and surfing is the thing that you want to do most in life, then don't try and...
I went through a stage in my life where I thought, oh, you know, surfing, it's just a sport. It's, you know, I don't need it. I almost had this realisation, oh, I'm addicted to surfing.
I kind of fobbed surfing off as an addiction. And for those years where I kind of... I was lying to myself, basically.
And then when I came back to surfing, I realised, nah, surfing's not... that's not what surfing was for me. It's something that I just...
I need to have in my life and I need to be progressing my surfing. Otherwise, I just... I don't feel good.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's right. That's it. You said it.
You moved to London and you were telling me earlier you were doing 60-hour weeks in probably one of the worst cities in the world to live in to be a surfer, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, you were in denial.
And it's pretty... it's really cool to see what you're doing now with your podcast and your surf training at the high performance thing in Sydney there. And I'm stoked to hear that you've reconnected with surfing in this way.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, man. It's like, I guess in some ways having that break, you know, brought back a lot of hunger.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Frampton
But, you know, I think that it's not necessary because, like your advice you said before, you know, have a balance, you know, have a hobby, go and have a round of golf. Try not to think about surfing when you're at work. These little breaks of surfing, you know, daily or weekly are enough to keep that hunger strong, I think, and, you know, changing your equipment and stuff as well.
But, you know, like you said, I just don't think... I think focusing on surfing and focusing on progressing your surfing is something that I don't think anyone will ever, ever regret. I don't think anyone would look back at their life and go, oh, you know, I did too much surfing.
I don't think that's something that someone's going to say.
Jarred Hancox
No, and it's quite easy to sacrifice a lot of surf time in the pursuit of the most money possible. You know, for a lot of people, if they get more immersed in a surfing lifestyle or move somewhere, you know, they're not in a big city, they might want to move to a place where there's good surf, but you can't have as good a job, so you get a big pay cut. All those things, it's just a hard decision for people.
And I don't know, I guess it's whatever's good for you, but I personally have chosen the road where I've chosen to make less money, but just stay connected with surfing my whole life.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, one of the things you said earlier was, I asked you when you did your mobility work and you said in the evenings before bed. Now, most people are just watching TV, you know.
I think that's a big thing that we've got to realize is that we've kind of got to, in some ways, you know, if you want to get better at surfing, you do have to be a little bit obsessed. Instead of watching TV, get on a mobility ball and work on your mobility or do some specific strength movements or, you know, study some, oh, there's so much, there's so many resources out there to learn more about surfing, you know. And yeah, instead of watching the Kardashians, then, you know, immerse yourself.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, if we'd be a little less harsh here, Mike, we can say, instead of sitting on the couch watching the Kardashians, get down on the floor and start smashing yourself with a ball while you're watching the Kardashians or start doing some strength movements while you're watching the Kardashians. You know, you don't have to completely sacrifice your TV shows if you love them, but you can actually multitask and do things that are beneficial. You can sit there and do stretches and yoga while you're watching TV if you really want.
You know, you don't have to go to certain athletes, but you can benefit. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but what I'm getting at is those things accumulate. Like, from today, listeners out there, if you started spending half an hour every night working on your mobility or whatever it is, any weakness in your body that you need to work on, half an hour a night over time, you know, those changes will add up and it'll help you progress your surfing, but also help you maintain a certain level of surfing as you age if that's your goal, which is, I consider, a progression in itself.
You know, if you're maintaining a certain level as you age, you know, that's also considered a progression, you know, surf longevity.
Jarred Hancox
I can say from even just five minutes a day of focusing on a certain area of your body that might be giving you grief will make a huge difference within a week. You'll just be like, if you're doing the right thing for that body part, it's just something, just something. You just do something.
You just do something every day and you're going to really feel the benefits.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. All right, Jarred, before we go, I've got four quick questions for you. All right.
Just quickfire questions. Who's your favorite surfer?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, that's a hard one, man, because there's just so many surfers that I look up to. Obviously, I guess everyone can say Kelly Slater, but you know who I really like watching now is Mick Fanning.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Let's say Mick Fanning because when I've seen him surf live, he's just faster than anyone. Yeah. Also Mick Fanning.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Good choice. Okay.
What about Goofy Footer?
Jarred Hancox
Goofy Footer. Oh, there's so many good Goofys now. For backhand, I think Matt Wilkinson.
And even his forehand's pretty awesome. Can't go wrong with guys like, you know, Gabrielle Medina. And yeah, I like all those Brazilian Goofy Footers.
They're awesome to watch. I can't give you a specific one, though, mate. Sorry.
But when I was younger, Rob Machado was my favorite.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Nice.
Jarred Hancox
And Timmy Curran.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Okay. Favorite surfboard.
Is your standard custom shortboard kind of loosely based around one of the off-the-shelf models from Wanda?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, it is. It is. So my favorite, you know, for sure, and I can sort of back this up with my quiver.
I just got six new boards off Wanda and five of them are the Elite model. And that's currently my favorite model. And it's basically his flagship high-performance pro model.
Michael Frampton
Yep.
Jarred Hancox
So, you know, if he makes boards for any of the new ones doing the QS or tour or whatever, he ends up, they usually get an Elite model. So, and then from there, he's just customized, you know, nose whips and tail whips, etc. for my own style.
That's the curve and outline that I love the most. Yep. The Wanda Elite.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Okay. And what about, do you have a favorite surf movie or film?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, you know, I always love the Taylor Steele movies. You know, Focus, Good Times. All those 90s movies are cool because you can still watch them and you don't have to be a gymnastic wizard to be able to aspire to most of those moves they were doing.
They had aerials that, you know, were completely impossible to the average Joe Bloggs. Yep. Taylor Steele movies, for sure, from the 90s, epic.
Michael Frampton
What about, do you have a favorite New Zealand surf movie? Oh, New Zealand surf movie. There wasn't that many, was there?
All I can think of is Coastal Disturbance 1, 2 and 3.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, they were before my time, so I never really got into them. There's a guy called Damon Mead. He's made some really epic movies in New Zealand.
But to be honest, and I'm not being biased, but I really like, this is going to sound stupid, but I've made a couple of movies, Taranaki Tour 1, 2 and 3.
Michael Frampton
Yep.
Jarred Hancox
And I hardly ever watch them, but sometimes I'll, you know, I might have a date or something and go, oh, you want to see a movie I made once? Or, you know, I might just show a friend. And I love watching them.
When I watch them, oh, that's so awesome, because I put hundreds of hours into making those movies and just seeing all the good footage of me and my friends and other local guys surfing, and there's sort of excerpts from overseas as well on those DVDs. And the soundtrack was all my favorite sort of music. So yeah, I'd have to say my own DVDs I made in the 2000s, which were Taranaki Tour 1, 2 and 3.
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool. All right. So you dabbled in a lot of different things as well.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, everything. I did the filming, or me and my friends did the filming. I did the editing.
I made the DVD covers. I made the labels that stick on the discs. Cool.
And I distributed them to the local shops.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Are there any excerpts or samples of that footage online on YouTube or anything folks can look at?
Jarred Hancox
No, I haven't actually uploaded any of those Taranaki Tour 1, 2 and 3s online, sorry. But yeah, if I do, I'll let you know.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Now, so do you have a website or a blog or anything that folks can go and...
Jarred Hancox
I think you can follow me on Instagram. What's my Instagram name? jrodnz.
Yep. And follow me on Facebook. Just add me as a friend on Facebook.
I put a lot of stuff on Facebook under Jarred Hancox. Yeah, that probably is the main two social media things I push. I've got a Vimeo webpage, a Vimeo, you know, thing with heaps of videos on there.
Although I'm going more towards doing really short clips on Facebook and Instagram these days.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Okay.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, but there is some epic... I've got some epic footage on Vimeo, like awesome GoPro and the YouTube stuff. And yeah, some really high quality made web clips on there that are well worth just checking out my channel on Vimeo under Jarred Hancox.
Michael Frampton
Okay, sweet. I'll put links to all this stuff in the show notes as well. But if you guys want to go and see if...
see Jarred's... some of footage and photos of him surfing. Yeah, his Instagram page jrodnz, that's J-R-O-D-N-Z.
There's his Instagram handle. And Jarred, thank you so much for your time today. That's awesome.
015: NAM BALDWIN - Director of Breath Enhancement Training.
Aug 01, 2016
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Mastering Breathwork and Stress Management with Nam Baldwin
What if improving your breathing could be the key to conquering wipeouts, boosting performance, and mastering your mindset in the water?
Surfers often focus on physical technique but overlook the power of their breath. In this episode, we explore how mastering rhythmic breathing, focus, and stress management can transform the way you surf—helping you stay calm under pressure, recover faster, and tap into the flow state when sitting out the back.
Discover how breathing affects your nervous system, brain waves, and even the acidity of your blood, allowing you to optimize oxygen use and performance in the surf.
Learn practical techniques like rhythmic breathing, peripheral vision awareness, and diaphragmatic training to handle high-pressure surf conditions and recover effectively.
Gain insights from Nam Baldwin’s experience training world-class athletes like Mick Fanning and applying his BET (Breath Enhancement Training) methods to improve both surfing performance and safety.
Unlock the secrets to better surfing through breathwork—tune in now to transform your performance in and out of the water!
For more, visit BET Training and check out Nam Baldwin's upcoming ebook on breath hold training for surfers.
Noticeable Quotes:
"The challenge in surfing isn’t lack of oxygen—it’s excess carbon dioxide."
"Your breathing is the most important part of how to self-regulate."
"Narrow focus generally creates intensity and stress, whereas an open focus calms the brain."
"If we breathe rhythmically and evenly, we allow oxygen to be released more efficiently from the blood, optimizing performance."
"When under stress, focus on following your breath with your mind to relax the body and let go of tension."
Nam educates us on how the way we breathe affects our nervous system and stress response - therefore our performance in the water. We also discuss breathing in relation to big wave surfing and hold-downs.
Nam Baldwin introduced Breath Enhancement Training (BET), a program to help surfers deal with high-pressure moments and improve breath holding, breathing, and resetting after challenging situations.
Rhythmic and even breathing can influence the heartbeat and assist the heart in pumping blood and oxygen more efficiently.
Proper breathing techniques, such as breathing low into the lungs first, can optimize oxygen release from hemoglobin and improve oxygen efficiency.
During stressful situations, maintaining an open focus or peripheral vision can help calm the brain and reduce stress response.
Practicing diaphragmatic breathing exercises can strengthen the diaphragm muscle and improve the mind-muscle connection for better breathing under stress.
Short breath-hold exercises, such as 40-second breath holds with minimal rest, can help build tolerance to carbon dioxide buildup experienced during wipeouts.
Nam discussed working with professional surfers like Mick Fanning to improve their breathing and stress management through BET training.
Nam recommended morning breathing routines to establish rhythmic breathing, activate the diaphragm, and prepare the body for the day's activities.
Outline
Introduction of Nam Baldwin and BET
Nam Baldwin is introduced as a highly qualified emotional and stress control management specialist.
He is the co-developer of the internationally recognized Breath Enhancement Training (BET).
Nam's credentials include being a life coach, motivational coach, and health coach.
He has trained world champions in surfing, including Mick Fanning and Steph Gilmore, as well as Olympic gold medalists.
BET is a program developed about 12-15 years ago to assist surfers in dealing with high-pressure moments during surfing, such as hold-downs and surfing bigger waves.
The program aims to improve breath hold safely under stress, enhance breathing to self-regulate the nervous system's response, and reset from challenging moments.
It focuses on helping surfers perform at a high level without getting in their own way.
Importance of Breathing for Self-Regulation
Breathing is the foundation of self-regulation.
When stressed, breathing is the first thing that changes, affecting heartbeat and nervous system operation.
Better breathing under pressure leads to better regulation of stress response.
Rhythmic and even breathing is emphasized, using breathing muscles in the correct sequence.
This involves breathing air low into the lungs before it goes to the upper chest.
Stress often leads to high chest breathing, which is shallow, rapid, and irregular.
Slower, lower, and more rhythmic breathing assists the heart in pumping blood and oxygen more effectively, particularly to the brain.
Influence of Rhythmic Breathing on Heartbeat
Rhythmic breathing directly influences heartbeat.
Devices can illustrate the heart beating relative to breathing patterns on a screen.
The heart sits in a bag called the pericardium, which is attached to the diaphragm.
Effective use of the diaphragm, the primary in-breath muscle, assists in stretching the pericardium, elongating the heart, and helping blood movement.
This makes the diaphragm act as a second pump, reducing stress on the heart.
Better heart function leads to better nervous system operation, as the heart sends messages throughout the body with each beat, signaling the body's state and experience.
Reflexive Breathing Under Stress
Reflexive breathing occurs in stressful situations.
This type of breathing is the body's attempt to increase oxygen intake to process the stressful situation and prepare for fight or flight.
However, this response may not be the most effective way to breathe under stress.
With proper training, individuals can learn to breathe more effectively when stress stimuli kick in, leading to a better overall response to stressful situations.
Application of Breathing Techniques in Surfing Scenarios
These breathing techniques can be applied in surfing scenarios, such as after a heavy hold-down.
In such situations, surfers often experience oxygen debt and carbon dioxide excess.
Good breathing can help repay the oxygen debt quickly, eliminate excess carbon dioxide, and bring the muscular, respiratory, and cardiovascular systems back to an effective operating state.
Progressive breathing, which is even and rhythmic, is recommended to recover from such situations.
Specific Advice on Recovery Breathing Techniques
Specific advice on breathing techniques for recovery after intense surfing experiences includes starting with mouth breathing for both inhalation and exhalation based on the urgency to breathe.
As the heart rate drops and the nervous system calms, transition to nose inhalation and mouth exhalation.
Finally, move to full nose breathing when comfortable.
The key is to focus on getting air low in the lungs first, then high, and maintaining an even and rhythmic breath pattern.
The specific timing of breaths (e.g., 5 seconds in, 5 seconds out) may vary based on individual needs, but consistency and rhythm are crucial.
Working with Professional Surfer Mick Fanning
Experience working with professional surfer Mick Fanning started around 2006-2007.
Introduction to Fanning was through their coach, Phil Mack.
A session conducted with Mack and his surfers led to a significant improvement in their performance.
This success prompted Mack to recommend the training to Fanning.
Work with professional surfers focuses on stress management, enhancing awareness, and improving focus through breathing techniques and other physical attributes that assist under pressure.
Concept of 'Open Focus' or 'Gaze'
The concept of 'open focus' or 'gaze' is introduced as a technique to manage stress.
This involves using peripheral vision when approaching potentially stressful situations, such as paddling out in surfing.
By maintaining awareness of the peripheral vision rather than narrowly focusing on the immediate threat, surfers can calm their brains and reduce stress response.
This technique is contrasted with narrow focus, which tends to create intensity and stress.
Breath Hold Training in BET
Breath hold training included in BET involves short breath holds similar to the duration of wipeouts, combined with activities that stress the heart rate.
The training simulates real surfing conditions by including activities like being spun around underwater or wrestling underwater.
This approach allows surfers to learn controlled breath-holding under higher heart rates, mimicking actual surfing scenarios.
The training is conducted in a safe, progressive environment, typically leading to significant improvements over six to seven sessions.
Safety Aspects of Breath Training
Emphasis on safety aspects of breath training, particularly in relation to drowning prevention in surfing.
Many drownings in surfing are likely due to extreme stress responses, where improper breathing and movement can lead to rapid oxygen depletion and muscle fatigue.
The training focuses on teaching surfers to remain calm during hold-downs, conserving oxygen and limiting carbon dioxide buildup.
Most wipeouts in six-foot waves only last about 8-9 seconds, emphasizing the importance of managing this short time effectively.
Oxygen Efficiency and Blood pH
The concept of oxygen efficiency is discussed, explaining how breathing affects blood pH and oxygen release.
The Bohr effect is introduced, describing how the acidity or alkalinity of blood affects oxygen release from hemoglobin.
Proper nose breathing and rhythmic, even breaths help maintain optimal blood acidity for efficient oxygen release.
Mouth breathing or hyperventilation can lead to blood becoming too alkaline, making it harder for the body to utilize available oxygen.
Diaphragm Training for Core Strength
The importance of diaphragm training for core strength is highlighted.
A diaphragm pump exercise is described, involving rapid nose breathing focusing on activating the diaphragm, rectus abdominis, and transverse abdominis.
This exercise helps train these muscles to activate effectively under stress or elevated heart rate.
A study showing a 24% increase in diaphragm thickness over six weeks with just eight minutes of daily practice is mentioned.
Safe Breath Hold Exercises for Home Practice
Advice on safe breath hold exercises that surfers can practice at home is provided.
Focus should be on comfort with short breath holds (under a minute) rather than attempting extremely long holds.
A suggested routine involves four 40-second breath holds with minimal rest between each, performed as a morning ritual.
This approach helps build comfort with breath holding under slight pressure without risking low oxygen levels.
The challenge in surfing is not lack of oxygen but excess carbon dioxide, so training should focus on building tolerance to CO2 buildup.
Personal Morning Breathing Routine
A personal morning breathing routine is shared, which includes establishing a nice, rhythmic, even breath for 3-5 minutes (5 seconds in, 5 seconds out).
Focus on belly rising and falling to stabilize CO2 balance in the blood.
Perform diaphragmatic exercises to encourage strength and brain connection.
Do in-breath muscle stretching and strengthening exercises (lung packs).
Hydrate.
This routine aims to activate breathing muscles, warm them up, and prepare the body for the day's activities.
Connection Between Self-Doubt and Physical Responses
The connection between self-doubt and physical responses in the body is explained.
When experiencing self-doubt, the vagus nerve stimulates the diaphragm, increasing breathing to help process the mental challenge.
By consciously controlling breathing during moments of doubt, one can shift attention to something controllable, allowing the brain to process the situation more effectively.
Key Strategies for Surfers
Key strategies for surfers to implement include maintaining a tall, relaxed posture when sitting out back.
Using an unfocused gaze, being aware of peripheral vision.
Relaxing the eyes.
Breathing rhythmically and evenly.
Focusing on deep breaths, activating the belly and sides of the abdomen.
These techniques aim to enhance relaxation, focus, and overall performance in surfing.
Transcription
Because that is the challenge in the Surfing. It's not lack of oxygen, it's excess carbon dioxide.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Surfing better.
Michael Frampton
Today my guest is Nam Baldwin. Nam is a highly qualified emotional and stress control management specialist. He is the co -developer of the internationally recognized BET or Breath Enhancement Training. He's a life coach, a motivational coach, a health coach. He has trained world champions including Mick Fanning, Steph Gilmore, and some Olympic gold medalists as well. Nam, tell me about what is Breath Enhancement Training?
Nam Baldwin
It's a program that we put together about probably 12, 15 years ago now to assist all surfers in the beginning in dealing with the high pressure moments that we have when we go for a surf. So hold downs, Surfing bigger waves, and dealing with moments where you really go into a bit of a stressed state, how to improve a number of elements around that.
So how to improve your breath hold safely when you're under stress, how to improve your breathing to help self -regulate the way in which your nervous system responds, so that fight or flight response. And then how to really allow yourself to reset from challenging moments too, so that when you're out the back, if you've just got through and you're like, holy moly, this is heavy out here, how to self -regulate one's thoughts and behavior so that you can perform on a high level. You're not gonna get in the way of yourself.
Michael Frampton
And all of that stuff can be affected through your breathing?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, predominantly, that's the foundation of it all. Your breathing is the most important part of how to self -regulate. The first thing that changes when you get stressed is your breath, which then affects your heartbeat, which then affects the way in which your nervous system operates, nervous system being that fight, flight response or freeze response that we go into.
So the better your breathing is, excuse me, under pressure, the better you can regulate your response to the stress that you're going through.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so how do you mean by better?
Nam Baldwin
So very simply, if I'm going under stress, the important thing is that my breathing is rhythmic and even, and that I'm using my muscles, the breathing muscles that I have in a correct sequence. So predominantly breathing in air low into my lungs before it goes up to the upper part of my chest. A lot of us, when we get stressed, we become high chest breathers and breathe shallow and rapid and irregular.
So as soon as we breathe a little slower, a little lower, and then make that breathing more even and rhythmic, the heart is then assisted in the way in which it pumps blood and oxygen around the body and primarily to the brain, where it's so more effective at the job that it has to do because the breathing is better.
Michael Frampton
So rhythmic breathing can influence your heartbeat?
Nam Baldwin
Totally. Yeah, so we've got various little devices that we illustrate that live on a screen where people can see their heart beating relative to the way in which they're breathing. And if you're breathing shallow, erratic, or fast, erratic, your heart is interfered by that way of breathing. And how it's interfered is that your heart actually sits in a bag called a pericardium, and attached to the bottom of that bag is your diaphragm.
So if your diaphragm isn't moving much when you breathe in and out, it isn't assisting your heart as much as it could if it was. So the diaphragm, which is your primary in -breath muscle, when used effectively, assists in stretching that bag out, elongating the heart, and sucking blood or assisting blood moving into the heart so that when it then pushes back up when we breathe out, now the heart's being pushed up via the diaphragm and helping expel blood out of it.
So it becomes a second pump. Okay.
Michael Frampton
So your heart kind of recognizes, hey, there's a nice rhythmic breathing going on through the diaphragm. I'm gonna jump on that and time myself to be more efficient.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, and have greater movement so that it doesn't have to beat as hard, so to speak, to get the blood in and out. It's being assisted. And therefore, less stress and load on it.
Michael Frampton
Okay, and that directly affects your nervous system.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, so interestingly, every time your heart beats, it's sending a message around your body in relation to the state in which it is in and the experience in which your body's going through. So the better your heart beats, the more it regulates the nerves that travel away from it through various means to signal that you're in control or you're in a state of coherence, which is ability for systems to work effectively together.
So the better the heart beats, the better the nervous system operates.
Michael Frampton
Okay, when we experience a stressful situation, we tend to go into what's sometimes called reflexive breathing. And for those listening, it's sort of a, that sort of breathing, isn't it?
Yeah. And the body kind of naturally does that, doesn't it? Now, why does it do that and why is that bad?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, it does it because it's trying to increase the amount of oxygen coming into your body so that it can process what's going on and then give you an abundance of oxygen so that you can run or fight from whatever's going on around you. You just probably have not entrained yourself to breathe effectively when that stimulus kicks into gear.
So normally, you know, an ancient day when that happened, when you got very stressed, your breathing would increase because you were taking action, you were taking flight. We may have forgotten how to breathe effectively to improve that response.
So it doesn't take much, that's the other thing too, it doesn't take much to teach someone and for them to entrain that response to be way better, to breathe when the stimulus kicks in a slightly more meaningful way, bit more even, bit more rhythmic, bit more intent behind your breath and then you're assisting yourself.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess from a practical sense in my own experience, it's been, you know, if you have a nice, quite a good beating or a good hold down in some sizey Surfing and you might manage to get back out the back to safety and you're sitting out the back and you just realize that you're 100 % absolutely flogged and wiped out and basically your Surfing is over. So is regaining control of your breath a way to influence and kind of push the reset button on a Surfing like that in that situation?
Nam Baldwin
Absolutely, so you know, predominantly you've probably gone into a big oxygen debt and a carbon dioxide excess, meaning that you're feeling fairly lactic and heavy. So with good breathing, you'll repay the oxygen debt fairly quickly. You'll get rid of the excess lactic or carbon dioxide and then the systems that allow you to work effectively, the muscular, respiratory, cardiovascular systems will come back into an operating place where you'll feel quite good. But you just might need a couple of minutes to get that to happen through really progressive breathing, which is generally just even and rhythmic and things will come back into play.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so for folks listening, would you suggest a particular time signature to try?
Nam Baldwin
To time as in how long they have to breathe in that matter for or?
Michael Frampton
Well, let's say you're in that situation, you've had a heavy hold down, you realize neurologically you're wiped out but you managed to get back out the back to safety. Yeah. And is there a particular, how many seconds in, how many seconds out?
Nam Baldwin
Okay, see what you're saying, yeah. So, well, whatever the body requires and you're aiming for, I guess the best way to sort of illustrate it is, initially you're gonna have to use your mouth to breathe and you'll use your mouth to breathe in and out based on the urgency to breathe and breathing heavy. And when you feel that you can use your nose to breathe in and your mouth to breathe out, go to that phase. And that will mean that your heart rate is dropping and your nervous system's calming down.
And then when that becomes easy, go to nose. Now that may take a period of time based on your fitness. In terms of how long do you breathe in for and out for?
Well, at the beginning of that stress response, whatever's required, as long as you're focusing on getting the air low in the lungs and then high as a process. Because to say, five seconds in, five seconds out, et cetera, it may not be right for an individual. They may need shorter, longer, whatever works for them. But as long as it is fairly even and rhythmic.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so that sounds like that's key, right? The rhythm of the breathing.
Nam Baldwin
That's right, yeah. And if you look at a really good runner, a really good Surfing who's paddling out effectively, their breathing will be very even and rhythmic. There'll be consistency.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so is that another thing you might recommend to Surfing, to breathe in time with your stroke?
Nam Baldwin
You could do, you could use that, or you could just follow your breath with your mind. When you do that, you will become even and more rhythmic with your breathing.
So it's just something that you could focus on for a short period of time to get it into that way of breathing. It's amazing what will happen when you put your mind on something.
So so if you breathe in, just follow it.
Michael Frampton
Follow your breath with your mind. Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
And then when you breathe out, follow it. You'll create a rhythmic, even breath when you do that.
Michael Frampton
Okay, just by becoming more aware.
Nam Baldwin
That's right. Wow. Quite a simple process.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Could you tell us, what did you do with Mick Fanning? We.
Nam Baldwin
Got introduced way back in, I think it was 2006, 2007 maybe, no, 2007, through his coach, Phil Mack. When I was just basically teaching people a lot of the BET training, and I invited Phil because he had a couple of, obviously he had Mick, but he had a couple of other really good Surfing in his group, and he was keen to see and hear what the training was all about. Took him through a session, and he, him and his guys had a profound shift in how they felt, how they performed in the session. They got tremendous gain from it all, and then he basically recommended it to Mick. He said to Mick, I think this is a good thing for you to do, and we then came together, and I took him through a session and challenged him, and that's where it all began. He loved the challenge and the information backed with the practices that we teach just have such good, real application to real life stuff.
So it started from there.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so any pro Surfing is often and always putting themselves in quite stressful situations, so it's partly, it sounds like this breathing has got a lot to do with stress management, right?
Nam Baldwin
Of course, Absolutely, and then there's other things that we teach in relation to other physical attributes that will assist you under pressure that need to be bolted on to good breathing, and then that helps regulate the emotional side of things.
Michael Frampton
Of course. Okay, and that enhances your awareness and your focus.
Nam Baldwin
And again, keeping it incredibly simple with a simple application of a physical thing that you do to keep your brain calmer under pressure.
Michael Frampton
Okay, are we talking posture or a trigger move? Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
So yeah, posture's a good place to be, but the use of your eyes actually has a profound impact on your stress response, so making sure that on a consistent basis you're going into what we call open focus or a gaze as you're approaching something that may be stressful. So if I'm paddling out, I wanna tend to be more aware of the peripheral of my vision, not narrowly focusing on the impact zone of what's just in front of me or about to hit me. I'm still having awareness of that space, but I have awareness of the peripheral of my vision, and that calms my brain down.
Michael Frampton
Okay, that's interesting. I haven't heard that one before.
So is that kind of like a relaxation of the eye muscles? Is that part of it?
Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
Kind of, yeah. So if you had, easiest way to sort of talk about it is if you eyeball someone, if you go very close and look at someone's eyes, and then you put your hands to the side of the person's head, but look at their eyes, but be very aware of the hands on the corners of your peripheral, you'll find it a lot more comfortable because you're now going into more open focus.
So narrow focus generally creates intensity, stress if it's really zoned in, and you'll notice that when someone approaches something very stressful, their eyes enlarge, and they go into focusing narrowly on something, which is just trying to help you. However, it will create more of a stress response.
Michael Frampton
And it's obviously the stuff you're teaching is relevant for hold downs as well.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, absolutely. So what we do is activity that involves short breath holds similar to the times that you're wiping out for, with activity that is putting your body under stress from a heart rate perspective, and then simulating or mimicking what goes on when you're wiping out.
So you're learning to hold your breath in a more controlled manner under a higher heart rate, which is real to Surfing. Doing activity that is similar to a wipe out, being spun around upside down, back to front, et cetera, wrestling underwater, those sorts of things, that is trying to simulate as best we can what really happens.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I guess on your course, you get to do that in a safe environment. Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
Absolutely. And that's the whole objective, is keep it very safe and progressive so that you get tremendous change in a person over six to seven sessions. They have a massive shift in their performance when it comes to things like hold downs and then being able to reset body and mind after a challenging experience.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I'm gonna speculate here a little bit, but I'm gonna guess that a lot of drownings in Surfing are due to the amount of stress in the body. Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, and going into that fight or flight to an extreme level where, when it comes to breath regulation, you've gotta learn to calm yourself so that you're not burning as much oxygen and creating lots of carbon dioxide that will then lock muscles up. Yeah. And yeah, you can't swim out of things. You get, you're fatiguing yourself through inappropriate breathing and movement.
Michael Frampton
And even like, I'm guessing, when you're held under in a big wave and you're getting tumbled, if you can, I mean, you're gonna come up, right, eventually. Absolutely. And if you can remain calm, then you're conserving oxygen and limiting carbon dioxide, right?
Nam Baldwin
Correct, yeah. Okay.
So being very aware of the sensation of a wave holding you under, and then when it releases you, okay, it's time to come up, but don't try and come up whilst it's doing its thing and pounding you into the ocean.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Okay, so it's just as much as a safety course as it is a performance course.
Nam Baldwin
And then being realistic and getting the facts that potentially a six foot wave that you wipe out on, you're underwater for about eight seconds, nine seconds maybe. It's not a long period of time, so manage that time.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. It can feel like a long time sometimes. Absolutely, Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah. Yeah, a bad time is a long time.
Michael Frampton
Do you recommend counting during a wipeout?
Nam Baldwin
Look, you could. I sort of, you know, recommend a number of different things, but that can be a good thing. And another thing is, you know, just to be aware of the feeling of being moved and when that intensity backs off, okay, it's time to come up. You could put your mind in a happy place and just enjoy the experience. You can, you know, be aware of an area of your body that isn't getting stressed at all, like your hands or your feet.
And then probably as important as all those things is just remembering not to breathe out when you wipe out.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay, yeah, of course, yeah. What about, have you heard of this guy called Wim Hof?
Nam Baldwin
I have heard of Wim Hof, yeah.
Michael Frampton
Do you have an opinion on his work at all? Not.
Nam Baldwin
Really, I haven't really looked into it a great deal. And I think a lot of what I have seen, he really does back his stuff on scientific evidence and so on, so a little bit that I have seen, it's a lot of the information's quite interesting and real. I just haven't looked into it enough to sort of make an opinion on it other than he is backing a lot of what he's saying with good evidence.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I've looked into him a bit. I mean, there's no denying some of the stuff he's done and it's all through breathing and I guess part of the reason I mention that is, it's just, I mean, we all look at, you know, we've got food, you know. Food is an input that we need. We can go 40 days without food, essentially, and we all know how the quality of our food affects our bodies and of course, the way we eat, whether we chew our food, our meal timing, et cetera affects it and then water, we can go four or five days without water but again, the quality of our water and the timing of when and how much and how we drink our water is a big thing but you can only go without air for a few minutes and we don't tend to look into it that much, really. It seems like there's a big mismatch there and you look at someone like Wim Hof who's gone to the extreme where he's doing these quite full -on breathing practices but he holds the world record for, you know, swimming under the ice, sitting in an ice bath for two hours without changing his core temperature. I think he got only a few thousand feet shorter for the summit of Mount Everest in his shorts.
I mean, this guy is obviously he's been doing it for a long time but it's just such a powerful message. He's like, you know what, breathing, the way you breathe can affect your performance, your life, your health.
Totally, amazing and obviously, it's something that, you know, Surfing is, you spend a lot of time underwater holding your breath.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, it's incredible. It's Yeah, so it's just about conditioning, isn't it, and about an acceptance of some of the things that we go through and then, okay, well what can we do to assist ourselves and to learn those practices and then to practice and then you condition yourself into, obviously, coping better with what comes.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and so there was a study that Red Bull did a while ago where they were measuring the brain waves of good Surfing and they found that a good surfer naturally will automatically, once they've got back out the back into safety and they're waiting for the next wave, they'll go into what's called alpha brain waves. Now, that's part of your nervous system and that can be affected by your breathing as well, am I right? Absolutely.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, so when we do a session, we always go into what we call a recovery mode where we spend eight to 10 minutes on calming the breath right down to a point where, you know, every participant's sort of breathing maybe anywhere from one to four times in a minute, which is, you know, normally it's eight to 10 without any effort and in that process, it's doing specific things with the mind which allows then the body to let go of tension and then as that occurs, the nervous system will calm into what's called a parasympathetic state which is a healing state and in that state, we then influence the brain, its pattern in which it works. So if there's obviously less stress based upon the way we breathe, the way we think, with these little practices that we do, we can go into a very deep parasympathetic state which induces this probably a bit deeper than that, more of a theta state in the sessions that we run.
So a deep sleep is delta and we're going into theta which is, you know, a beautiful calming experience within the mind and body and through practice of doing that every session, obviously then you can bring that into, you know, sitting at the back, you can go into that place and maybe not into deep theta but into alpha which is, you know, where flow and the ability to really sort of go with what is starts to happen.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so you mentioned, I mean, I've kind of already asked this question already but let's reiterate it. So in that case, in that situation where you, let's say you really wanna, you know, increase your performance and you wanna make sure that when you're sitting at the back, you're nice and relaxed and getting into alpha brainwaves, is there a particular timing of breath that you recommend or is it again more back to that rhythm?
Nam Baldwin
It's just, you know, I'm using it potentially as a little focal point where you are following your breath with your mind and as you do that, you then allow, you know, other areas of the body to relax too, in particular the jaw, that area and then the chest and around the heart as you breathe out to soften those areas. The timing of the breath again is relative to the individual but, you know, if you would aim for, as an example, might be five seconds in, five seconds out, something around that time frame seems to be well connected to a very good heartbeat because most athletes or Surfing, you know, resting heart rate is going down to sort of 60s to 70 beats per minute.
So that would be quite easy to induce a five second in, five second out and then once that's established, then, you know, just let go of tension so that final motor skill can operate on a higher level.
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool and so whereabouts are you, Nan? Whereabouts are you running these courses?
Nam Baldwin
All around the country, on our website, we just, we send out information of where we'll be. So we run them in Sydney, Melbourne, Gold Coast every month, Perth, Newcastle, all around the country. We just, yeah, again, we just send out the info on our website and when you go to the website, you can see where the next dates are and the available spots, et cetera. Yep.
Michael Frampton
Okay and that's BETraining .com? Yep. Awesome, I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, perfect.
Michael Frampton
And apart from working with Surfing, are you working with people in any other capacity?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, a number of different Olympic teams and individuals on all levels, so kayakers, swimmers, BMX guys, runners, you name it. Then I work with the Titans often, so whenever I'm home, I'm doing a session with them at least once a week, once a fortnight and then a lot of business people, really going to businesses and assisting them in stress management but in utilizing a slightly different approach than most where we focus on better physical performance through daily rituals, et cetera, that allows them to have better mental performance.
So all scopes and breathing is always part of it because it's such an important part of living.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, the oxygen efficiency, how does that work? I mean, when you suggest that one could improve your oxygen efficiency, it almost is kind of stating that we're oxygen gluttons.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, well, we've got a lot of it in our body. It's whether we can tap into it.
So I'll give you an example of that. If I'm a mouth breather, when I'm breathing through my mouth, it's not necessarily meant to happen. In other words, I'm calm, I'm relaxed but I'm using my mouth to breathe. I'll lower my carbon dioxide to a point where my blood becomes too alkaline and now the hemoglobin that carries oxygen around my body doesn't release the oxygen very well.
So I become oxygen deficient through mouth breathing. Now, if I use my nose effectively and I'm breathing rhythmically, evenly and low on the in -breath before I bring the air up into the top part of my lungs, I'm really allowing that chemical formula, that acidity in my blood to be at an optimum where oxygen is released readily from hemoglobin. And now I'm getting more efficiency through my breath because I can now tap into it.
So a simple example is hyperventilate for two minutes and you'll black out. How come?
Well, you've got rid of so much carbon dioxide that now you can't extract oxygen from your hemoglobin cells because the acidity is lost. So it's a fine balance breathing. And if we get it right, the balance, we work at an optimum.
So we can tap into the oxygen that we have. And if we really bolt on good breathing methods around intensive activity or intensive stress, we're optimizing our ability to tap into that oxygen content. And that's what our brain primarily wants when it's stressed along with sugar.
Michael Frampton
Interesting. So the way you breathe affects the acidity or the pH of your blood.
Nam Baldwin
That's right. And that needs to be at an optimum for good release of oxygen from hemoglobin. It's called the Bohr effect.
Michael Frampton
Can you spell that?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, B -O -H -R.
Michael Frampton
Okay, interesting. Yeah, that's probably what Wim Hof is doing a lot of. He does.
Nam Baldwin
It. Absolutely, yeah, there you go, yeah. And if people eliminate too much CO2, which I have seen on a couple of clips, they pass out. Because now they're locking the oxygen out. And I don't know if that's a good practice, but it demonstrates things.
Clear. So the opposite is true then if you were to breathe very evenly, rhythmically, but to the right areas of the lungs. Lower lobes potentially are absorbing a lot more oxygen than the upper part of the lungs, which is predominantly upper chest breathing.
So over time, that percentage of how much is absorbed into the bloodstream is higher with better breathing. Therefore, you'll get more from each breath.
Michael Frampton
It's in the training world, if you dive deep enough, you learn that the diaphragm is actually the master muscle of the rest of your core. Of course. And when you breathe properly, you improve the sequencing and the firing capacity of your transverse abdominals and your obliques, et cetera. And you actually get a stronger, more efficient core that allows your spine to move smoothly as well.
Nam Baldwin
Absolutely. And therefore, some of the activities that we get people to practice is diaphragmatic activity to increase the muscle brain connection so that the muscle and the brain are very well connected when under stress, because that usually is lost when we get stressed. Things drop out of circuit.
Michael Frampton
Could you give me an example of an exercise that might help that? Yeah, sure.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, we do what we call a diaphragm pump for a specific amount of time, and it's breathing in and out through the nose fairly rapidly for a period of time. So it would sound like this. And all I'm doing is breathing in and out and predominantly activating diaphragm rectus abdominis, transverse abdominis to get the air in and out of the lower portion of my lungs. And if I do that at the rate that I just did for a period of time, I'm then in training those muscles to activate if my heart rate elevates, if I go under stress, they should come into play because I have entrained them to do so at that rate with that type of intensity.
Michael Frampton
Wow, there's so much to breathing in the diaphragm. Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
We did a test with that. We got a 24 % change in thickness in the diaphragm through those sorts of activities over a six week period with just working on it eight minutes a day. Wow. Massive.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay. Now, obviously it's, you know, if you're gonna practice any sort of breath hold work, you need to be with a partner, especially when it comes to water. But is there anything that one, if there's any Surfing out there that are interested in increasing their breath hold time, is there any safe exercises they can do sitting on the couch?
Nam Baldwin
Sure, you could, you know, probably my advice is that you're not going for length of time in terms of, you know, let me see if I can do minutes and minutes on end, but potentially just getting comfortable holding your breath for a short period of time, longer than what you need in the Surfing. So let's say we keep it under a minute, a 40 second breath hold. You might repeat in the morning, you just do four breath holds.
So you're just activating a breath hold sequence where you breathe in correctly, hold your breath for 40 seconds, breathe out correctly, which is something that we teach in the courses, breathe in again and hold for 40, and do that four times in a row. That's your little morning ritual to activate the ability for your brain to be okay and comfortable with a good amount of time holding your breath with minimal rest between each breath hold. And I wouldn't recommend doing any more than four breath holds in a sequence. But it's under 50 seconds, 40 seconds for each one. But you're just going to that level where normal people will find it quite challenging to hold their breath in that sequence, where you're just getting comfortable with that.
So when it comes to teaching people about breath holding, it's getting comfortable with short breath holds where you're under a bit of pressure. So if you've only got a breath in and a breath out to recover between each breath hold, each one will be progressively harder, but it's not to a point where you're gonna get low oxygen levels, et cetera. You're actually getting high carbon dioxide, which is what you want to build a tolerance to, because that is the challenge in the Surfing. It's not lack of oxygen. It's excess carbon dioxide that creates the stressful feelings.
So it's exposing yourself to that. Another simple way is to do fairly intensive cardiovascular work so that your tolerance to climbing CO2 through sprint work will allow you to hold your breath for longer, because you're more tolerant to that gas. And that's why you want to breathe out when you hold your breath. By actually developing an ebook with Mark Matthews, and we're putting it together purely for people to train their capacity to hold their breath better in the Surfing without having to get in the pool.
Michael Frampton
Awesome, I look forward to that.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, it's gonna be good.
Michael Frampton
When's that due to be released?
Nam Baldwin
Look, shortly. We're not too far away. We've done a lot of filming on it, and now we're just cleaning it up and getting the material out there and simple activities for people to follow that are very safe, no risk of any kind of blackout material or anything like that.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Now, what about first thing in the morning routines, morning breathing? What do you personally do?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, always having a few minutes to just establish a nice, rhythmic, even breath. So it might be lying on my back and just being aware of my belly rising and falling as I breathe in and out so that I'm focusing my attention on that so that then, predominantly during the night of sleeping, you may have breathed erratically or snored or whatever, so you're stabilizing the correct CO2 balance within your blood through breathing in for five, breathe out for five, for about a three to five -minute period, and then doing some diaphragmatic exercises to really encourage that strength in that area and connection to the brain and stimulating the nervous system into more of a switched -on mode, and then some simple in -breath muscle stretching and strengthening exercises.
So that's just basically a lung pack where you're breathing in over a sequence of breaths to just activate the 10 in -breath muscles that we have and keeping the lungs functioning in its entirety so that when we go and do sport or go into the rest of the day, all those muscles have been switched on, warmed up, stretched and strengthened so that should you need to breathe heavy, they're ready to do so.
Michael Frampton
Cool, yeah, morning routines are important.
Nam Baldwin
And hydrating, obviously, most important thing. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
It's a good start to the day. Yeah, absolutely. Now, there's a little, on your website, there's a blog article on confidence. Just reading off your website, it says, when you engage in self -doubt, there is a contraction of smooth muscle in your stomach area. Could you expand on that a little bit more?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, so when we go into any kind of mental challenge, there's a predominant nerve that will send signals through and down to your diaphragm called the vagus nerve. And when that's stimulated, it's doing something very simple. It's trying to get you to breathe a little bit more to help process whatever that you're going through and it could be self -doubt.
So if I go into self -doubt, my mind is ticking over, my brainwave pattern is increasing and for me to process what's going on, I need more oxygen. And the more oxygen content coming into my blood and therefore up to my brain, the easier it is for my brain to process information.
So if I breathe effectively, that smooth muscle that's contracting, which is the diaphragm predominantly, is now going into service and assisting me through the challenge. So if I go into stress and I'm going into doubt, good place to start is just to pause and have a few even rhythmic breaths.
And then in that moment, you're now shifting your attention to something that you can control and allowing the brain then to do its thing and help process whatever doubt you've gone into.
Michael Frampton
Interesting, okay, so it just comes back to rhythm again.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, and evenness, making it rhythmic and even.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so I guess to kind of summarize what we've talked about so far, a good strategy for Surfing will be to, when they're sitting out the back, sit in a nice, tall, relaxed posture with an unfocused gaze, being aware of one's peripheral vision and relaxing their eyes and breathing rhythmically.
Nam Baldwin
And evenly, Yeah, well, low first, then high.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And evenly and deeply as well.
Nam Baldwin
So getting that action where the belly is activating that region, ideally out to the sides, not letting your abdominal wall just flop. And then, yeah, that would be great, just for a few minutes.
Michael Frampton
Yep, okay, awesome. And if folks listening out there wanna learn more, then Nam mentioned an ebook that's coming out soon. But yeah, you're doing the BET training courses all around the country.
Yeah. And go and check out that website. And Nam, we're kind of running out of time, but before you go, I wanna ask you a couple of quickfire questions. What's your favorite surfboard at the moment?
Nam Baldwin
I've got a Chris Garrett. It's a fish. I just love his shapes. I just think Chris makes a great board. That would probably be my favorite at the moment.
Michael Frampton
Do you have a favorite Surfing movie or surf film?
Nam Baldwin
Good question. There's so many. There's many. A favorite when I was young was Big Wednesday. That was a cracker. Yep. I'll leave it at that.
Michael Frampton
Cool, do you have a favorite Surfing?
Nam Baldwin
Mick.
Michael Frampton
Mick, good choice. Nam, thank you so much for your time. Invaluable, loads of good tips on enjoying this podcast, probably worth multiple listens, considering that breathing is such an important topic.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Michael, for inviting me.
Michael Frampton
Awesome, so that website again is betraining .com. And if you just Google Nam Baldwin, it'll come up anyway. And hope to see you on one of those courses soon as well, Nam, next time you're in Sydney, I'm gonna jump on. Please Awesome, thank you.
Nam Baldwin
Do, yeah, that'd be great. Love you too.
Michael Frampton
So Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery podcast.
Nam Baldwin
Welcome.
Michael Frampton
Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating, that'd be awesome. Until next time, keep Surfing.
013: RICHARD BENNETT - Performance Psychologist & Author of 'The Surfer's Mind'
Jul 14, 2016
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: "Unlocking Peak Performance with Richard Bennett: Mindset, Fear, and the Three C's of Surfing
How can you unlock peak surfing performance by mastering your mind, overcoming fear, and embracing spontaneity?
Join this episode of Surf Mastery Podcast as host Michael Frampton sits down with performance psychologist Richard Bennett, author of The Surfer’s Mind and former psychologist for the World Surf League. They explore how mindset, preparation, and intuition are the keys to surfing your best, regardless of the conditions. Whether you're a seasoned surfer or just starting, this conversation provides insights to elevate your approach both in the water and in life.
Discover the "Three C's" of big-wave surfing—calm, confidence, and commitment—and how they can transform your surfing experience.
Learn practical strategies to manage fear, improve focus, and cultivate mindfulness both on and off the waves.
Understand how elite performers across disciplines leverage preparation, intuition, and adaptability to achieve greatness.
Press play now to learn how to align your mind, body, and soul to surf with confidence, clarity, and joy!
Notable Quotes:
When people are being creative, that’s when we’re at our happiest and fulfilling our potential—whether it’s creating a piece of art or performing on a wave."
"Fear is often about the past or the future. The key is to come back into the moment, where you’re not at risk, and clear your mind to choose an ideal focus and feeling."
"The best mindset for big-wave surfing is calm, confidence, and commitment. Calm your mind and body, be confident in yourself and your equipment, and commit 100% to your decisions—whether it’s to go or to let the wave pass."
"When you’re thinking about preparation for performance, it’s about cultivating the best opportunity to be in that mental state and consistently so, while leaving room for spontaneity."
"The moment we think something’s possible, it starts to become possible."
"Preparation builds confidence—tune your body, tune your equipment, and develop an intimate relationship with the ocean."
"We need to look at our inner being and our own evolution as a person in the same way we look at the ocean—we flow and move."
"Commitment is 100% go, whether it’s paddling for a wave or deciding to let it pass. Hesitation is what puts you in the lip instead of under it."
"Elite performers constantly explore, discover, and embrace mistakes, knowing they are part of unlocking their next level of potential."
"When we resist natural processes, whether in the ocean or in life, we struggle. Flowing with them helps us thrive."
Richard was the former WCT Surf Psychologist and shares some valuable tips and strategies to help you master your own 'surfer's mind'
012: ROB CASE - Surfing Paddling Coach
Jul 01, 2016
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes: Mastering Surf Paddling Efficiency with Rob Case
Ever wondered why some surfers seem to glide effortlessly while you’re paddling with all your might? What if mastering a few key techniques could change the way you surf forever?
In this episode, we dive deep with Rob Case, creator of XSwim and the Surfing Paddling Academy, as he unpacks the often-overlooked art of paddling. Whether you're struggling to catch waves, want to improve your endurance, or prevent shoulder injuries, Rob's expertise is here to help. With decades of experience in competitive swimming and surfing, Rob shares insights that can make every paddle more efficient and enjoyable.
Here’s what you’ll gain from tuning in:
Learn how to reduce resistive drag and eliminate common paddling mistakes for effortless wave-catching.
Discover how proper paddling technique prevents long-term shoulder injuries, saving you from unnecessary downtime.
Understand the secrets of wave positioning and timing to maximize your time on the water and surf like the pros.
Hit play now to transform your paddling technique, catch more waves, and elevate your surfing game with expert tips from Rob Case.
Rob breaks down efficient paddling technique so you can paddle faster, for longer and keep your shoulders healthy. We talk about yawing, hydrodynamics, hand placement & entry, and much more, enjoy.
Here is a side by side paddling analysis viewing World Champion Kelly Slater's paddling technique next to an up and coming talented surfer, Taylor Clark Learn to Surf - Surfing Paddling Technique - How to Catch More Waves with Less Effort: http://www.surfingpaddling.com Learn to surf step number 1: Paddling correctly.An analysis of the Kelly Slater and Bede Durbidge paddle battle at the Quiksilver Pro Gold Coast - the top three paddling techniques Kelly uses for more Surfing Paddling Technique tips and videos, visit http://www.surfingpaddling.com In the following video, I break down the paddle battle that took place in Round 4 of the Quiksilver Pro Gold Coast between Kelly Slater and Bede Durbidge.
Key Points
Rob explained the concept of "yawing" in surfing paddling, which refers to the side-to-side slithering motion that reduces efficiency and speed.
Rob discussed the importance of proper paddling technique to prevent shoulder injuries and improve paddling efficiency.
Rob highlighted two common paddling mistakes: entering the water with the thumb down and applying force during the initial "lift phase" of the underwater arm stroke.
Rob explained the "Bernoulli principle" and how it relates to the lift phase during paddling.
Rob emphasized the importance of positioning and timing when catching waves, which he plans to cover in an upcoming course.
Rob discussed the role of gravity in catching waves, rather than solely relying on paddling speed.
Rob encouraged sharing knowledge and techniques within the surfing community to promote progress and enjoyment for all.
Outline
Rob Case's Background and Expertise
Rob Case is the creator of XSwim and the Surfing Paddling Academy, with over 30 years of experience in competitive and recreational swimming.
His background includes pool and long-distance open water swimming, surfing, water polo, triathlons, lifeguarding, swim instruction, and surfing instruction.
This extensive experience has led to their expertise in surfing paddle techniques, focusing on improving paddling efficiency for surfers.
They have developed videos and programs aimed at enhancing surfers' paddling technique, efficiency, and overall surfing experience.
Yawing in Paddling
Yawing is a common mistake where the surfer moves through the water in a snake-like motion, wasting energy and reducing speed.
This occurs when the back and front of the board move in opposite directions sideways.
To minimize yawing, surfers should align their head, body, and board along one axis and rotate around that axis while moving forward.
The technique involves digging the rail deeper on both sides to prevent the yawing action.
Maintaining a thin lateral profile while paddling reduces resistive drag as water is much denser than air.
Lateral and Horizontal Balance in Paddling
Efficient paddling requires maintaining lateral balance by keeping a thin profile from the front view, which reduces drag.
Horizontal balance involves proper positioning on the board and correct head position.
These techniques are fundamental because they focus on reducing resistive drag rather than increasing propulsion.
Reducing drag is crucial since excessive drag cannot be overcome by strength alone.
Significant improvements in paddling efficiency can be achieved by focusing on reducing resistive drag through proper technique.
Common Paddling Mistakes
Entering the water with the thumb down, often carried over from swimming, can lead to shoulder injuries due to the flatter body position in surfing.
The correction is entering the water with a flat hand, fingers first.
Applying force immediately upon hand entry can cause upward propulsion instead of forward movement.
Surfers should allow their hand and forearm to drop naturally to about a 45-degree angle before applying force.
Incorrect arm extension during the lift phase on shortboards lengthens the waterline, making the surfer more efficient, but this technique adds unnecessary drag on longboards.
While casual paddling doesn't require much leg movement, a two-beat kick (one kick per arm stroke) can be beneficial when sprinting or catching waves.
Developing Proper Muscle Memory
Developing proper muscle memory requires conscious practice and repetition of correct techniques.
Changing habits necessitates focused attention, even for experienced swimmers and surfers.
Periodic practice drills help reinforce proper form.
Advanced technology, including underwater cameras with near-live feedback, helps clients quickly identify and correct technique issues.
Preventing Injuries Through Proper Technique
Proper paddling technique improves efficiency and helps prevent injuries, particularly to the shoulders.
Certain mistakes, such as entering with the thumb down or applying force too early, can lead to long-term shoulder problems.
Subtle adjustments to technique can alleviate pain and avoid potential surgeries.
Advanced Concepts in Paddling Efficiency
The Bernoulli principle relates to lift and propulsion in the water, though recent studies suggest its role in swimming may be less significant than previously thought.
Waterline length impacts paddling efficiency, explaining why different techniques are used for shortboards versus longboards.
Goals for Helping Surfers Catch More Waves
The goal is to help surfers catch more waves by focusing on three main components: technique, fitness, and positioning/timing.
Technique involves efficient paddling and movement in the water.
Fitness develops the physical capacity to perform techniques consistently.
Positioning and timing involve understanding wave dynamics and optimal positioning for catching waves.
Various programs and resources, including one-on-one coaching sessions, online courses, and free YouTube videos, are offered to help surfers improve in these areas.
Advocating Knowledge Sharing Within the Surfing Community
Sharing knowledge within the surfing community enhances the overall experience in the lineup for everyone.
By helping others improve their skills, particularly in paddling, a more positive and progressive surfing culture is fostered.
Encouraging surfers to pass on what they learn about technique, fitness, or wave reading contributes to this goal.
Transcription
Is a thousand times more dense than air.
Welcome to the Surfing Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Surfing better.
All about reducing resistive drag.
Michael Frampton
All right, welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Today my guest is Rob Case. Rob is the creator of XSwim and the Surfing Paddling Academy. Rob has over 30 years experience as a competitive and recreational pool and long distance open water swimmer. Rob's obviously a surfer, water polo, triathlete, lifeguard, swim instructor, Surfing instructor. Rob's spent a lot of time in the water and what I really like about what Rob is doing is, let me put it this way, Rob, I came across a couple of your videos a couple of years ago where you break down how good Surfing paddle. And I was sort of always the guy that, you know, someone would, like a young kid, would paddle past me and I'm paddling as hard as I could and I couldn't figure it out. I was like, man, he just must be fitter or stronger than me.
And then I came across your videos and a concept called yawing. And as soon as I realized what yawing was and started to correct my yawing, wow, it just changed the way I paddle a surfboard and I just have more energy in the water, my paddling's more efficient, I'm catching more waves, it's that simple.
So I think a lot of, in the Surfing coaching world, in the surf fitness world, we don't talk about paddling technique and paddling efficiency enough. So let's start there. Let's educate folks out there on what exactly yawing is.
Rob Case
Yeah, thanks. I actually appreciate that story because it's pretty common with a lot of the clients that I come across where paddling really hasn't been on their mind until somebody passes them or they just get so fed up and frustrated with it that they're not catching waves or they're not getting out. Then it finally becomes something that is important to them. And I find that a little bit funny because if you look at the whole entire Surfing experience from suiting up and waxing your board to getting out there and riding waves and coming back, paddling and sitting on your board actually make up a majority of the time out there.
So it's quite important. I just think it's often overlooked. And to answer your question, yawing is when you're kind of slithering through the water like a snake, you're going from side to side. And we all know that to get the fastest, to get from point A to point B is in a straight line.
So yawing is not actually gonna help us with speed or efficiency and spending energy, extra energy to get to where we're going. So that's what yawing really is. And it's funny you mentioned that one video because that's really just one technique of the many that I teach that are kind of eye openers for people.
So it's really been fun the last few years working with clients and piecing apart specifically what their issue is and trying to correct it and making their whole Surfing experience actually more fun. And I've even had clients come back and say, I thought you'd help me get paddling to be bearable, but I'm actually enjoying myself when I paddle.
So that's always a nice thing to hear for sure.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so yawing is kind of like fish tailing. Like when the back of the board and the front of the board are moving in opposite directions sideways.
Rob Case
That's right. And then as you're moving forward because of that, you're basically slithering. And actually a lot of standup paddle boarders experience yawing naturally because they're paddling on one side and then they have to paddle on the other side. And if they don't have a big enough fin, then that's exactly what they're gonna be doing. They're gonna be yawing back and forth and slithering along their way.
Michael Frampton
So I mean, that obviously is naturally gonna happen as you shift your weight and paddle from left to right arm. So what, I mean, obviously there has to be some sort of movement in the surfboard as you shift your weight from left to right as you're paddling.
So what should we do? Yeah.
Rob Case
So you're always gonna have a little bit of yaw, but we wanna try and minimize it because if you try and picture you and your board moving through the water and you're trying to move efficiently in straight line, if you're moving outside of this kind of border on your shoulders, like imagine your two shoulders are two barriers and you're moving outside of that, you're swinging your body outside those lines. So if we can align our head, our body and our board along one axis and actually rotate around that axis moving forward, so basically dig your rail in a little bit deeper on both sides, we're gonna be rotating around that axis and we're gonna prevent that yawing action from happening. A lot of swimmers do this naturally because basically there's no board and so your body is the board, your body is the vessel. And so we have to rotate around this axis that goes basically from our head down to our tailbone all the way down to our feet. And as soon as we break outside of that axis, let's say we take a too wide of a stroke or too narrow of a stroke, we've now broken that axis and now we're gonna start yawing and that's not gonna be efficient paddling.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so instead of yawing, the weight shift that happens as we paddle needs to create a slight roll instead of a slight yaw.
Rob Case
That's right. And again, that's only one aspect of it, that's kind of what I call lateral balance.
So that's if you're looking at the way you're paddling from the front, so if you're paddling straight at me, you want your lateral profile or the width of that profile to be very thin and streamlined because what people don't realize is that water is a thousand times more dense than air. And so if you can imagine yourself biking against the wind, what do you try to do when you're biking against the wind? You make aerodynamic.
Michael Frampton
It.
Rob Case
Yeah, aerodynamic and small, right? So if water is a thousand times more dense than air and we have to make ourselves hydrodynamic and aerodynamic for the water basically and cut through the water, one way to do that is to keep that lateral profile or how wide your profile is to be very thin. And that rotation keeps you from going outside that lateral profile and that keeps you from yawing.
So the rotation is really the only way, one, you can get your hand up out of the water without slapping it or going wide. I see a lot of Surfing when they do their recovery, swing their arm wide. And that's one of the causes of yawing. As you swing your arm wide, what does the rest of your body do? It follows along with that motion and it kind of slides.
So when you're rotating, you can actually lift your elbow up high behind you and lead with your elbow within your lateral profile. So your hand just kind of follows behind you and you stay within that lateral profile, nice and streamlined. And that's just the lateral balance aspect of it.
And then there's horizontal balance, of course, which is where you're positioned on the board and how you hold your head. And those are actually the first two major techniques that we try and teach in the Surfing Paddling Academy because they're two of the most important because it's all about reducing resistive drag. And if we can reduce resistive drag, then adding propulsion ends up being very easy. But you can't have the other way around. You can't add propulsion and lift weights and become this big hulky paddler and say, I'm gonna paddle like crazy. If you're dragging 600 pounds of drag behind you, whether it's lateral or horizontal.
So a lot of people will gain the biggest gains in paddling efficiency by reducing resistive drag.
Michael Frampton
Okay, awesome. And for folks listening that didn't quite get that, Rob's got some really good YouTube videos, which I'll link to in the show notes that break it down even more and you get a visual for it as well. I'd highly recommend that every single Surfing out there watches, there's three videos in particular I've got in mind where he breaks down the yawing and the high elbows and head position and you're kind of writing on the screen and you break it down so well. It's such valuable information.
I mean, I guess a lot of Surfing naturally just do it, but I think most of us out there, we kind of need to understand these concepts and practice them.
Rob Case
Yeah, it's funny how everyone talks about muscle memory and even though muscle memory really doesn't have anything to do with your muscles, it has everything to do with your brain. And in order to kind of change that habit, the wonderful thing about swimming and actually Surfing paddling is with water, we have to develop this feeling.
So our brain needs to recognize this feeling of how we're supposed to be doing it right. Right now, everybody has a feeling of whatever habit they developed, whether it's right or wrong. And so in order to change a habit, you need to do certain drills or you need to really consciously think about it.
And then when you do that often enough, that short -term conscious thinking becomes unconscious. So the more and more that you do it and more repetition, everyone says practice makes perfect, but really it should be perfect practice makes perfect.
So the more you do it right, then the less you actually have to think about it. So even though I've been swimming competitively since I was three, I still do drills from time to time just to remind my brain of what it feels like to do the correct motion on a consistent basis. And now I can go out and I can paddle and I can swim and I don't have to think about the movements consciously, but when you are changing that habit, when we're trying to become more efficient with our paddling and save energy so that we can go out and catch more waves and last longer in the lineup, then we do have to put a little bit of work into it. And that's usually the drill work that I put in place. In the videos, I provide a few drills and especially in the Paddling Academy online, I do a lot of drills.
And then people that come here to our facility here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have live stroke analysis. So we get in an endless pool. We actually have an underwater camera that is almost live.
So it's about a one second delay, but I can see right then and there when people are doing something slightly off and I can stop them and say, here, try this. And they can immediately get that feeling so that the brain starts to make the connection between doing what's right from wrong and the feeling that is associated with both of those.
So it's actually, I totally nerd out on the technology. I love this coaching technique whereas before I was in a pool. And I'd have to walk to the end of the pool with the camera, download the film, then review it. By then that feeling has completely lost. They've lost that feeling in their body and their brain.
So they can't relate it as quickly. So what I've been able to accomplish in just one session here, which is about an hour, I accomplish over four or five sessions in a pool.
And then for multiple clients, people that come back over and over again, two or three sessions here is months worth of work in a pool. So it's, again, I totally nerd out about this stuff.
So I apologize if I sound a little bit nerdy in that sense, but it's really exciting for me and it's exciting for the clients to see that difference and feel that difference.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, as Surfing, it's such a unique opportunity to stand up on a wave. I think that's why it takes so long to improve one's Surfing because we don't, like golfers have driving ranges. We don't really have that yet, maybe soon with the wave pools. But the better we can paddle, the more waves we're gonna catch.
So it's that simple. And so you obviously see a lot of clients one -on -one, and I'm guessing a lot of those are quite experienced Surfing. And what's the most common paddling mistakes you see in that type of surfer?
Rob Case
That's a great question. I actually do a whole video series on biggest mistakes. And there's a few that come to mind from that series, whether it's experienced or beginner.
Some of the really most common ones that I even seen in pros, one is entering with your thumb down. And a lot of people are taught that from swimming. And in swimming, it's fine. It's okay to enter with your thumb down. But in Surfing, it's actually going to hurt the shoulder in the long run because you're twisting the shoulder inward and your body's flat.
So if you were to just sit there and do that right now, it's kind of an awkward motion. If you're just to sit straight up and twist your thumb down and bring your elbow, it kind of, I'm doing it right now, it kind of hurts my shoulder a little bit just to do that.
So in swimming, why that's okay is because in swimming, you rotate your body a lot more. So your body's not flat. Your body is actually turned. You always swim on your side. Nobody ever swims on their flat body. While Surfing, this is one of the major differences that I found in the research that I've done is that with surfing, well, we're flat. We're mostly flat. And even though we have that rotation from rail to rail, we don't nearly have as much rotation as a swimmer does.
So if we're taking that same entry into the water with our thumb first, we're one, we're causing that twist in our arm, which could long -term, if we do that enough times, if you imagine the number of times you've paddled or a number of strokes in a lifetime, that could lead to some long -term shoulder damage. So entering flat is the simple fix to that.
So enter flat with your fingertips first because it's the most tapered part of your body and then extend out. So the thumb down is one of the most common ones I see. And it's mostly just because, and I sometimes run into people in the lineup, I say, hey, were you a former swimmer or are you a swimmer? And they're like yeah. And I'm like, that makes sense. Or they've seen it from other pros doing it. The other reason why it's kind of worthless to enter with your thumb down is that because you end up flattening your hand for your underwater arm stroke anyway.
So it's actually an extra movement. So why not just eliminate that movement, enter with a flat hand, and then you're ready and set up for that underwater arm stroke.
And then another really big mistake that will affect the shoulder, and I'm kind of pointing these two out because one of the goals of the program is to prevent shoulder injury so we can basically Surfing for life, is during the first phase of the underwater arm stroke, which many people call the catch, I call it the lift phase. It's actually, there's a phase before the catch that is quite important. If you're on a shortboard and you're entering flat now and you're extending forward your arm before you drop your hand and forearm down to the sea floor or down to the pool, bottom of the pool, that moment from going flat to about 45 degrees, you don't wanna apply any force. You don't actually want to enter and immediately apply force down in your stroke. That's another thing I see all the time with experienced Surfing. They feel like they need to take a stroke immediately in order to move quickly through the water. And that's just not the case with a lot of the research I've done and a lot of the one -on -ones that I've done.
So what you'd rather do is just allow that hand and forearm to drop naturally. And a good way of thinking about this is if you're ever in your car and you're driving on the road and you stick your hand out, like when you were a kid and you stick your hand out of the window and you kind of ride the wind with your hand up and down. When you lift it up and you pitch it up, the air catches underneath your hand and it pushes your arm up. When you kind of tilt it down, it hits the top of your hand and it pushes your whole arm and hand down that way.
So that's, imagine now that the air is not air, but it's water. So as the water approaches and as your hand enters, if you pitch your fingers down, if you pitch your hand down a little bit, your hand and arm are gonna naturally go down.
So you don't need to apply any force in that first phase of the underwater arm stroke or the lift phase. So don't apply force during that, just let it drop naturally. Because when you're pushing down, if you are pushing down, one problem is now you're using your rotator cuff muscles, which are not the ones that we wanna paddle with. Those are our stabilizing muscles. We don't wanna hurt those.
So that's gonna prevent that injury from happening. And two, if you do apply force down, simple physics, action reaction.
So if you push down, where do you go? You go up, not forward.
So it really doesn't help on two fronts by applying any force in that first phase. So extending a little bit more, letting your hand and forearm drop down to about 45, keep your elbow high. Now you can catch the water. And that's what I call the front propulsive phase. And that's where most of the power in your stroke actually comes from.
And then there's two more phases to the underwater arm stroke but those are really the two biggest mistakes I see in experienced Surfing is that applying force in that first phase and entering with your thumb down.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so not only does working on your paddling technique increase your paddling speed and efficiency, but it would save yourself from some long -term overuse, you know, what we call surfer's shoulder.
Rob Case
Yeah. And it's funny because I've, I haven't had any problems with shoulders but I've run into people, especially Surfing that have shoulder problems all the time. And just those subtle adjustments sometimes take away the pain and avoid any long -term surgeries. And surgeries nowadays are expensive.
So, and let alone time out of the water as well. So you're trying to recover and you're trying to, you're certainly trying to rehab it. And it's hard.
So I do what I can. I'm not a physical therapist by any means.
So I always refer out to a physical therapist and I work with one here locally. And I always ask people if they've had any problems with their shoulders. And we kind of just take it from there to see if we can remedy the situation.
Michael Frampton
Okay. I guess that if you were to start paddling hard as soon as that hand enters the water, like you said, you propel your body up, which essentially is gonna drop the back half of the board down and create even more resistance.
Rob Case
There you go. Spoken like a true master of paddling there. That's exactly it.
So, and then if you're adding your more resistance in the back, then you're making even worse case for yourself. So there are times where the lift phase is completely skipped altogether. And those are with long boards or prone paddle boards.
So you wouldn't extend your hand because it would just be causing more drag and no propulsion. But on a short board, the reason we extend our hand out is because we are in the water, we are sunk in the water. And there's this fundamental concept of boat building actually came from a hydrodynamicist named William Froude that realized that longer boats move faster. But the key here was longer boats at the waterline.
So the length at the waterline, if it's longer, then it moves faster and more efficiently. So if you imagine you on a short board, let's say a low volume short board, where's the waterline? The waterline is your body because you're underwater, you're practically underwater. You have a little bit of the board out of the water, but the waterline itself is you. Whereas on a long board, where's the waterline? The waterline is the whole rail of the board depending on how long your long board is.
So if you're trying to extend your hand in that lift phase on a long board, all you're doing is adding drag without any benefit. You're not lengthening the vessel, you're not making it longer and more efficient, you're actually just adding drag. But on a short board, that's why we have the lift phase.
That's why we extend our hand out. We're actually lengthening our waterline and letting the water go by us and extending our board.
So it's as if we're making our 5 '10 short board into a 6 '1 short board instead. And it doesn't act exactly like a longer board because when we take a stroke, we lose that waterline. But the idea is to extend that vessel so that we can be more efficient and stretch out our strokes. And it helps us take fewer strokes and save more energy.
So it's pretty amazing watching it, using the endless pool here at our house. When someone is paddling in it and we have a certain current going, let's say it's a 130 per 100 meter pace, and they just leave their arm out there, it's amazing the aha moment. They're like, wait a minute, I'm not drifting back.
Well, no, you're not drifting back as long as you're streamlined, as long as you're extending that waterline. So that's kind of the fundamental concept there. And the difference between a long board and a short board as well.
So with a short board, you can extend that lift phase. On a long board, you skip the lift phase altogether and you go right to that front propulsive or that catch phase.
And then the other place where you would skip or at least shorten the lift phase a great deal is when we're catching a wave, when we're sprinting and we need a high stroke rate and we just need to get really fast speed going. That's the other kind of scenario where you'd skip that extension of the arm.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Now, what about, how should we hold our feet? A lot of Surfing will cross their legs. Do you recommend that?
Rob Case
Yeah, I don't mind that. If you're casually paddling out, the feet are just basically drag in the water.
So if you're trying to conserve energy, really the best way to do is stay nice and relaxed. You can cross your feet, you can lift them out. They can be kind of at the top of the water a little bit because your body really is leading and breaking the frontal resistance.
So the feet are kind of just dragging behind. But the idea is either you lift them out or you do like a two beat kick, like a rhythmic kick.
So for every stroke, you take a kick essentially. So it's two beats. It's like boom, stroke. When you're sprinting, I suggest, and studies have shown that kicking actually does, in fact, increase velocity. What the studies don't show is whether the velocity comes from reduction in resistive drag, meaning when you're kicking, you actually bring that back half of your board and body up out of the water while you kick. Whether it's that resistive drag or the kicking is actually providing propulsive force.
So swim studies have shown it's a little bit of both, but they're still not even sure. But we don't need to know exactly what the reason is. We just need to know that it works. And so when you are sprinting, when you're catching a wave, kicking is a suggested technique as long as you can stay balanced elsewhere. And why don't we kick all the time?
Well, I think that's pretty obvious because we wear ourselves out. Kicking does get quite exhausting.
So if you're kicking for five, six seconds when you're catching a wave, that's not gonna break the bank in terms of depleting your energy for the whole session. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
What's the Bern, you have to correct my pronunciation, the Bernoulli principle.
Rob Case
Bernoulli. So Bernoulli principle basically is that lift that I'm talking about. And it's a principle where it comes from an airplane wing actually. And recent studies have shown that swimming doesn't use the Bernoulli principle as much as everyone originally thought when Doc Councilman started doing the research back in the 50s. And McClisco started to continue to use it into the 80s and 90s. But short answer Bernoulli is it's that lift.
So when I was talking about your hand being outside the window and you lifting or pitching your hand up and down while you're driving, that's Bernoulli's principle. The air hits the bottom, it lifts up. The air hits the top, it pushes it down. And so the way we use Bernoulli's principle or some aspect of it is in that lift phase where we're extending it. And because we're extending it and water starting to hit a little bit on the bottom of the hand and a little bit on the top, if we kept our hand completely flat, no pitch in the hand or the wrist at all, then we would actually provide a little bit of lift just in that one or two split second. But like I said before, is once you kind of get that little lift, then you wanna pitch your hand down so that you can get into that front propulsive phase.
So you can take a stroke and add propulsion. So Bernoulli, you can kind of get a sense for what it feels like. One, by sticking your hand out the window. And two, another kind of a fun drill to do is when you're out there waiting for waves, lay down on your stomach, put your hands over your head and just scull in and out.
So sculling is when you're kind of keeping your hands flat and you're bringing them in and you're taking them out and you're pushing the water in and out over your head. And what's interesting about this drill is that you end up moving forward. And people are like, well, wait a minute. You always talk about action reaction. You're pushing backwards so that you can move forward, right, in our arm stroke. With the Bernoulli principle or this lifting and the sculling, you're actually pushing to the side and you're still moving forward. And so that's a little bit of why that happens, a little bit of the Bernoulli principle, but recent studies have shown that it's not 100 % due to that principle.
So it's an ongoing process even in the swim world. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay. You've got a lot of free videos for folks to check out, which is awesome. You've even got some stuff, you're kind of breaking down some duck diving stuff as well.
So much information, so much free information you've got on your blog, on your website, on your YouTube channel. So I highly recommend every Surfing goes and checks that out. And like you mentioned, you're working one -on -one with people. Where exactly are you doing that?
Rob Case
We're located about 20 minutes north of San Francisco, California. So people in the Bay Area here will come up for a session or two and we usually space them out within about a month.
So every four weeks have someone come back. That way it gives them plenty of time to work on kind of the assignments that I give them, the things that we worked on, and then we can move on to kind of the next thing. And I've had a few clients fly in from, I have one flying in from London next month. I have a couple flying in from Brazil and a few from Australia actually. While they're in the Bay Area, they decided to book a session and come up here and check it out.
So it's been really beneficial on my side to work one -on -one. I love working one -on -one and seeing the change happen.
And then the people that can't make it here and take the online course or they watch the YouTube videos or go through the training at surfingpaddling .com, I get a lot of feedback from them. It's been great. It's been a lot of fun and quite a passion project of mine.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. For those surfers that aren't lucky enough to surf every day, but have access to a swimming pool, you've got some awesome online programs to keep them surf fit as well.
Rob Case
Yeah. So I kind of break down my overall goal as trying to help people catch more waves because if we can all catch more waves, we're all gonna have a lot more fun in the lineup. And really the first part of that is technique. Technique is, you can be as fit as a fiddle, but if your technique's bad, as we talked about earlier, you could either get injured or you would burn energy where you don't need to burn energy.
So if you can get the technique down first, then at the fitness level, you can make those same movements with even less effort and catch even more waves. And then really the third kind of aspect of it is positioning and timing. You need to be able to time your drop and position yourself in the right place on the wave.
So if you combine those three together, you can catch a lot of waves. And that's really kind of where my mindset is I've listened to a lot of some of your podcasts and some other areas where most of the pro Surfing say, hey, listen, the only difference between you and me is that I've caught more waves than you. And it's true, it's practice. It's that repetition. And so if you get the technique down, which is the Surfing Paddling Academy, my X --Swim for Surfers program is the fitness aspect of it where we keep you in the water because a lot of fitness programs are land -based and you lose that feeling of the water that I talked about. And that feeling is very important for your brain to make that connection. But it if you're, I'm a swimmer and I hate swimming.
You know, I really started to enjoy swimming only when I started Surfing and playing water polo because now I had a purpose for swimming. So the X --Swim workouts, there's swimming aspect to it, but there's a lot of dry land and what I call transitional movements, which are the types of movements that we use when we are actually riding a wave.
So a lot of leg work, a lot of balance work, a lot of flexibility work and agility training. So it's Surfing Paddling Academy, X --Swim for the fitness or really any fitness program that you fancy, just as long as you're getting fit and you're making those movements easier.
And then the last kind of phase is the positioning and timing. I'm in the process of building that class right now, actually.
Michael Frampton
So what do you mean by positioning and timing? You mean catching the wave?
Rob Case
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you can have the greatest technique and you can be fit, but if you're not in the right spot on the wave or the most optimal spot on the wave, you're not gonna catch it.
So one of the things that a lot of my clients have asked about is when I'm Surfing a steep wave, for example, how should I drop in versus kind of a flatter or what I call like a burgery wave, what we call a burger, mush burger. So there's different places you can be on those waves and there's different ways that you can drop in on those. And I got kind of the idea from a friend of mine who used to Surfing professionally and I could paddle circles around the guy, both because I was more fit but and because of the technique. But he would take two paddles and catch a wave. And I was always amazed by that. It was because he just knew where to be and knew where to catch the wave. And so I've been researching a lot of different pros techniques, where they line up, where they set up, how they time their paddles. And I've been, another kind of aha moment was something that Slater said down at Bells a couple of years back. He was saying that if you look at the wall of Bells Beach or a Bells wave, it's, you have to take a mid face bottom turn. You go all the way down, you lose all the speed. And if you look at it from the side, he's like, that's kind of where I got that idea. If you look at the wave from the side or the transition from top to bottom, every wave has a different transition. Whereas with skateboarding, like a skateboarding ramp, the transition's always the same.
Well, with Surfing, that's what makes surfing so awesome. Is that we always have to deal with all these different types of transitions. And so that's another kind of part of it is when you look at a wave, how do you study a wave? How do you determine what sort of transition you're dealing with? And when I should pop up versus really having no idea and just going out there blind.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess it's like anything else. You know, if you really want to master something, you have to really start looking at the details. - yeah.
I mean, you're in the midst of it now, but I'm imagining you're kind of looking at, you know, which arm is the last stroke before the pop -up? Is that?
Rob Case
Yeah, actually a little bit of that, absolutely. Yeah, it's the timing of it really has to do with the speed of the wave too and how fast it moves. When you look at, you know, what, a decade or decade and a half ago, they weren't paddling into Jaws. They weren't paddling into Piahi because they thought it was moving too fast. And so a part of that innovation has been the boards, but where they're positioning themselves at that break.
So they've kind of, a lot of the pros have broken down those walls at places like Chobu and in the early days, even Pipe, you know, when there were the long boarders and they finally got the thruster and they were able to kind of cut down the face of the wave a little bit more and grab the rail. So a lot of it has to do with the design, but it has to do with how they're positioning themselves when they're paddling, how long do they paddle for and how fast they're going with the wave. I think a big misconception that I hear a lot is, you know, I keep missing a wave because I'm not paddling fast enough. And I'm looking at them going, well, you know, paddling just helps you catch the wave. It doesn't catch the wave. Gravity is what catches the wave.
So you dropping out of the sky, whether it's a steep wave or a very mushy wave, it's really what gravity is what does it because, and I came to this realization because if you look at the speed at which prone paddle boarders paddle versus how fast waves move. So prone paddle boarders in the Malakai to Oahu paddle board race, they average about eight miles an hour in the unlimited category. That is very fast. I go out here on my lagoon and I average about five miles per hour on my prone in flat water. And that I think I'm like sprinting.
So how do they move so quickly in that race? How do they move eight to 10 miles an hour in that race? When the fastest swimmers in the world move four miles an hour. And if you're flat water on a prone paddle board, you may be hitting five or six miles an hour. How are they hitting eight or 10, eight to 10?
Well, they're riding the waves. They're riding the swells.
So it doesn't have as much to do with paddling as many people think in terms of catching a wave. It has to do with gravity. That's the majority force that's happening. Paddling sets you up in a position so that you can possibly catch it earlier and set up your line the way that you want to.
So if you're not paddling at all versus somebody that paddles or takes six to eight strokes. A good example, me and my buddy, where I came up with the idea, he takes two strokes, I take five or six. But for me, I'm not as good a Surfing as him.
So I need more time to set my line and really to identify what line I want to take. Where do I want to set my bottom turn? Where do I want to set my top turn or pull in? Whereas he can take two strokes and immediately find that line that he wants.
So there's so much of that going on in that research that for me, it's just exciting to put it all together. It's gonna be in a similar format with videos and illustrations so that people can really digest it.
Michael Frampton
Well cool, I look forward to that. Yeah. Is there anything else you want to talk about? I.
Rob Case
Think one of the things that I hear a lot is why are you giving away all the free secrets of yours? You know, why would you give away your advantage in the lineup? And I try and share this with all my clients. I say, you know, Duke was fantastic at sharing Surfing with the world. And he's quite the role model to me in that he was an Olympian swimmer as well and kind of the overall waterman. And he believed in sharing the sport and sharing what we know about it, especially within our own community.
So I always emphasize, you know, if you know somebody that this can help, whether it's through the Surfing Paddle and Academy online, the paid version or the free version through YouTube or through the free series, pass it on, you know, share it. Don't be afraid to share what you know and what you learn. And that actually brings our Surfing community together.
So as opposed to people being frustrated out in the lineup and making the whole session kind of a downer for everybody, help people out, make them less frustrated. And paddling is one of the most frustrating things.
So if we can make it enjoyable and everyone can enjoy it, then we're all gonna have a better time out in the lineup. So I just urge people to go out and as you're learning new things, whether it's riding a wave or fitness or paddling or board design, share it with your friends, share it with other people in the lineup and let's progress our sport and our culture.
Michael Frampton
I totally agree. Yeah. The better the beginner Surfing are, the better the advanced surfers are.
Rob Case
Yeah, absolutely. And the less pissed off we'll be about it.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, Rob. I really appreciate it. And we'll just mention your website again. That's xswimfit .com. That's X -S -W -I -M -F -I -T .com. And youtube .com forward Slack xswimfit as well is the YouTube channel. And like I said before, I'll put links to all of that stuff in the show notes.
Rob Case
And as well as surfingpaddling .com. Okay. That one's a real simple one. Yep.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Awesome. I really appreciate your time. Thanks, Rob. And I look forward to looking at your thoughts on breaking down the paddling in.
Rob Case
Yeah, absolutely. It'll be a lot of fun. Thanks for having me. Thanks.
Michael Frampton
Rob. Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep Surfing.
011: CRIS MILLS - Surf Strength Coach
Jun 22, 2016
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Building Strength, Mobility, and Balance with Cris Mills
Do you know how your body’s health and fitness can directly influence your Surfing performance? This episode dives deep into practical ways to elevate your Surfing and overall well-being.
Join Michael Frampton as he interviews Cris Mills, founder of Surf Strength Coach, for an insightful discussion about optimizing physical health to surf better. From addressing shoulder injuries and pop-up technique to exploring the role of nutrition, sleep, and recovery, this episode is packed with advice for surfers of all skill levels. Cris also tackles modern challenges like blue light exposure and EMF, providing actionable tips to harmonize your lifestyle with better Surfing outcomes.
Here’s what you’ll gain by tuning in:
Improved Surf Fitness: Learn how to prevent common injuries, improve strength, and enhance mobility to maximize your time in the water.
Balanced Nutrition Tips: Discover how to fuel your body with real, whole foods and indulge in guilt-free treats like dark chocolate and banana bread.
Holistic Lifestyle Adjustments: Get actionable advice on sleep optimization, mitigating EMF exposure, and creating balance between stress and recovery.
Discover how to boost your health and Surfing performance by listening to this episode now.
Notable Quotes:
"Human capacity is about being healthy enough to do what you want in life, whether that’s Surfing or building better relationships."
"If the foundations of movement aren’t in place, the rest of your Surfing will suffer."
"Mother Nature has the answers. Modern living isn’t always healthy, so it’s about balancing the good with what truly supports your body."
"You need to think of training and recovery as yin and yang. Eating a piece of cake is as much a stressor as pushing too hard in the gym."
"Real food is the foundation of health. Cut the processed stuff, eat whole foods, and your body will thank you."
Cris and I talk about surfing, strength training for surfing, surf fitness, surfing injuries and rehab, health, nutrition, & diet. We also discuss how lifestyle choices like EMF exposure, water quality, sleep, blue light exposure & meditation all effect human health - therefore your surfing capacity, longevity & performance.
Chris Mills is the founder of surfstrengthcoach.com and works with surfers on rehab, strength, and conditioning to improve their movement and surfing ability.
Common issues Chris sees in middle-aged surfers are shoulder and lower back problems due to overuse injuries.
For shoulder health, Chris recommends working on posture, spine mobility, and flexibility practices like yoga and stretching.
Chris emphasizes the importance of strength training, especially for the lower body, to handle the forces involved in high-performance surfing.
Chris recommends a paleo-style diet focused on real, unprocessed foods for optimal health and surfing performance.
Other lifestyle factors like adequate sleep, stress management, and limiting exposure to EMFs are also important for overall well-being.
Chris offers surf trips that combine surfing coaching, strength and conditioning, and technique analysis to help surfers progress.
Chris believes in a balanced approach to health, allowing for occasional indulgences like dark chocolate or banana bread.
Outline
Chris Mills' Professional Background
Chris Mills is the founder of surfstrengthcoach.com and a multifaceted professional in surfing and physical training.
They are a surfer, personal trainer, and strength and conditioning specialist with expertise in pool check courses, integrative neuromuscular therapy, and functional movement screening.
Their primary focus is working with surfers on rehabilitation and strength conditioning to improve overall movement and surfing performance.
The philosophy 'move better, surf better' emphasizes the connection between efficient body movement and surfing prowess.
Surfing is likened to dance and gymnastics due to its three-dimensional physical demands, necessitating efficient movement for higher performance.
Common Physical Issues Among Surfers
Shoulders and lower back are identified as prevalent areas of concern among surfers, particularly those aged 32-50.
These issues often result from years of athletic activity and cumulative effects of injuries.
Shoulder problems frequently stem from poor posture, extended desk work, and the physical demands of surfing.
Addressing overall posture is crucial as it impacts joint alignment and range of motion efficiency.
Modern lifestyles characterized by prolonged sitting and device use significantly contribute to postural issues and subsequent injuries.
For surfers aged 35-50, focusing on spinal mobility, especially in the thoracic region, is recommended to enhance shoulder girdle mobility and overall surfing performance.
Injury Prevention and Performance Enhancement Strategies
Yoga and flexibility training are strongly recommended, especially for older surfers, with an emphasis on finding knowledgeable instructors and committing to consistent practice over 12-18 months.
Foam rolling and self-massage techniques at home can complement yoga practice and improve overall mobility.
Lower body strength is essential for high-performance surfing maneuvers like floaters and full rail turns, with exercises such as deadlifts, kettlebell swings, and plyometric work being beneficial.
Upper body strength and shoulder health can be enhanced through pull-ups.
Cardiovascular exercises like swimming, biking, jump rope, or sprinting should be included to maintain overall fitness.
Dedicated flexibility sessions or daily stretching routines are important for maintaining mobility.
Video analysis and technique coaching are advocated to identify and correct surfing habits and improve performance.
Dietary Recommendations
A paleo template is recommended as a general dietary guideline, emphasizing real, whole foods like meats, vegetables, eggs, and fruits while minimizing processed foods.
Individualization in diet is stressed, noting that nutritional needs vary based on personal health conditions and goals.
Occasionally incorporating vegetarian meals can be beneficial, and consuming high-quality animal protein is emphasized for those who include it in their diet.
Key Lifestyle Factors for Health and Performance
Hydration is critical, with a recommendation to drink clean, filtered water using a high-quality filter like a reverse osmosis system with mineral re-mineralization.
Quality sleep is vital, with a recommendation of 8-10 hours per night for optimal recovery and performance, creating a sleep-friendly environment by removing electronics from the bedRum and turning off Wi-Fi at night.
Incorporating meditation or mindfulness practices helps manage stress and improve overall well-being.
Minimizing exposure to electromagnetic frequencies by turning off Wi-Fi at night and reducing electronic device usage, especially before bedtime, is suggested.
Using software like f.lux to reduce blue light exposure from screens in the evening can help improve sleep quality by not disrupting natural melatonin production.
Online Training Programs and Surfing Trips
Online training programs guide surfers through comprehensive fitness routines, including the 'Surfing Training Success' program, which progresses from foundational fitness to performance training.
A flexibility program covers the fundamentals of stretching and mobility work.
Organized surfing trips combine technique coaching, physical training, and surfing practice, offering a holistic approach to improving surfing skills and overall fitness.
Transcription
Just improve your overall human health and capacity so you can Surf.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Surf better.
Michael Frampton
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Today my guest is Chris Mills. He is the founder of surfstrengthcoach.com. Chris is a Surfing, a personal trainer, a strength and conditioning specialist. Chris has done pool check courses. He's done integrative neuromuscular therapy. He's done a functional movement screen, blah. But Chris, when someone asks you personally, what do you do? How do you answer that question?
Cris Mills
You know, a business coach recently told me I need to refine that. And it usually kind of ends up in a ramble. But essentially, I work with Surfing for the most part in terms of rehab or strength and conditioning and just making sure their bodies can move well.
Michael Frampton
Okay. And I see on your homepage you've got, you say, move better, surf better. I love that. Yes.
Cris Mills
Yes.
Michael Frampton
Because Surfing is essentially movement, isn't it?
Cris Mills
You know, I look at it and, I mean, I often, when I talk about the movement mechanics and capacity of Surfing, like I equate it to like dance and gymnastics. It's just so three -dimensionally demanding. And so, yes, you need to be able to move and move very efficiently just because, you know, if you want to Surfing at a higher level, higher capacity, you need to be able to move well.
So, yes, they go hand in hand.
Michael Frampton
Yes. And you work with athletes of all levels, right? Yes.
Cris Mills
Yes, absolutely. And actually all from other sports spectrums as well. And even still occasionally like your standard, you know, grandmother, dad, mom, but it is primarily athletes and primarily surfers of those athletes.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you mentioned rehab. Do you get a lot of sort of middle -aged surfers coming to you with Surfing overuse problems?
Cris Mills
Probably 75 to 80 percent. I'd put them in like the 32 -ish, you know, where the body is kind of starting to not slow down, but, you know, injuries are a bit more prevalent through the spectrum of like up to 50, 60 even. And, you know, you get to that age and you've been active, there's going to have been some injuries and ongoing injuries.
So, yeah, the large majority of people I see are either coming off of some type of previous injury or currently have some type of pain for sure. Overuse injuries, you know.
Michael Frampton
What's the most common issues you see in that group?
Cris Mills
Shoulders are huge. Lots and lots of shoulders probably followed by low back.
And then, you know, throwing the hips and knees in there as well. Shoulders and low back are probably eating up most of that pie chart. Just about any of those joint complexes, you know. Again, if you've been an athlete in your younger years and active, by the time you hit 35, 40, 45, you've done some damage to some joint complex or multiple joint complexes.
So, yeah, there's going to be a few in those checkboxes of previous injuries generally.
Michael Frampton
I mean, shoulders are so common. What's some advice for people out there to keep their shoulders mobile and pain -free?
Cris Mills
You know, it's a loaded question. First off, I'd say you need to look at overall posture. And posture isn't going to necessarily be the holy grail of pain relief. But, you know, posture equals joint alignment. Joint alignment allows for efficient range of motion.
So, you know, you see it. You're in the health field and training. And modern life just erodes our ideal posture. And when you take that ideal posture and you collapse it, you know, like we're staring at our phones, staring at computers, it just really offsets the spine and the neck and the shoulder girdle. And things will inevitably start to grind and break. And that generally hurts and results in some type of shoulder injury.
So posture, get your posture in check. And on top of that, you know, I'd say you kind of need to start looking at the age spectrum of where they're at in terms of giving some more advice. You want me to elaborate a little more?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, let's go with between 35 and 50.
Cris Mills
35 and 50, I'd say spine. You need to get your spine moving as efficiently as possible.
I mean, this extends to even younger. But by that age, you know, if you've spent the last, let's say 35, and you've been working since 20 at a desk, 15 years sitting at a desk, and then compound that to 55, and you've spent 25 years sitting at a desk, your spine is very likely not moving the way it should be. And once that spine, especially thoracic spine and ribs, stops moving efficiently, it just doesn't allow your shoulder girdle to move.
So get the spine going. And then I'd say adopt some type of flexibility practice, whether it's just stretching in your home, rolling on some lacrosse balls, tennis balls, foam rollers, and even some basic yoga practice. Get the spine going and just regain some flexibility and mobility of the upper body, lower body as well. But when we're talking shoulders, you know, make sure you can move your arm pretty well without pain and, you know, through full range of motion.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, peddling is important.
Cris Mills
It's a bit relevant to the sport. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So yoga, you recommend yoga?
Cris Mills
Yeah, 100 %%% man. I am not a yoga instructor by any means. I have done quite a lot of yoga. I've worked with a lot of yoga practitioners, in fact. And like anything in the health realm, you know, it depends on the instructor. But I think for that older age demographic, just getting into some general flexibility where they're doing it once, twice, three times a week is a good idea. And, you know, getting some kind of expert insight from a good yoga practitioner that kind of understands Surfing and has been in the game for a while and understands injury and getting people back to it rather than just throwing themselves into, what is it, Bikram where they do it in the hot Rum? I think that spins me out. I think that's a bit silly. But, yeah, I think yoga can be really good, man, for the older crowd. If they go at it slowly and with the intention of I'm going to change the way I move over the next 12, 18 months, two years, yeah, absolutely.
Michael Frampton
Well, it takes that long?
Cris Mills
What do you think? I think so.
Like it could. It depends where you're coming from, you know?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I agree. I agree, totally.
Cris Mills
Yeah, like you see it. Again, like you being a trainer, people, media has given people this concept that you're going to change yourself in 30 days, you know, or two weeks or 60 days. And it's just not going to happen, you know, especially if you're trying to undo 20, 25 years of neglect and misuse. It needs to be on the spectrum of let's see what we can do with my body over 6 months, 12 months and beyond, you know, to really make some long -lasting impacts.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so I guess ideally someone would have a one -on -one assessment with someone like yourself or maybe a local personal trainer or physical therapist, physiotherapist. But some general advice would be find a good yoga instructor.
Cris Mills
100%, man, yeah. I think some good basic yoga, like go to a class a few times to find a couple moves that you like, you know, that feel good for your body, that you're not having to force yourself into and feel like you're tearing things. And that in conjunction with laying on a foam roll at the house can do a lot of good. Absolutely. And there's so much content out there on the internet. You can easily find a 10, 20 -minute YouTube video going over some yoga. Just start exploring and going at it with that educational mindset.
You know, you're going to learn some new things. It can make some big impacts for sure.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff on the internet. A lot of it's pretty average to be quite.
Cris Mills
Honest. Yeah, that was pretty kind.
Like I've been reprimanded in the past couple months about my use of profanities on my blog and videos. And so, yeah, you know, you said it nicely. I would have probably been a bit more harsh. It's just there's so many mouths, you know, and opinions, social media. The blessing of the internet has allowed everybody to have a voice. And some of those voices aren't necessarily the best and brightest.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, the thing I like about your website and your YouTube page is, I mean, obviously you've done a lot of courses and studying human movement and the human body. You know, you've kind of summarized a lot of stuff and given good, you've got a lot of good quality videos that are relevant for Surfing.
Cris Mills
I appreciate that, man. Thank you very much, first of all.
Yeah, you know, I have waited, just like yourself, waited through a lot of course material over the years just out of personal exploration and curiosity and just wanting to learn more. And yeah, I've tried to take professional and expert kind of level advice, you know, technical stuff, and just boil it down to what somebody without anatomical knowledge can start utilizing, because that's what it's about, you know.
Like you and I could sit here and nerd out about anatomy and physiology, but that's not going to have any relevance for most of the average folks. So just trying to make some videos and articles of stuff that is usable, you know, and rational.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and relevant for Surfing. That's exactly right, because it's not relevant.
Like if you're Surfing every day, it's not relevant for you to jump on a pedaling machine. No. Because you're already pedaling loads and you kind of need to do the opposite of pedaling to keep your shoulders healthy, right?
Cris Mills
Yeah, 100 %%% man. Start working all the external rotation, scapular retractors. That's where surfers and the whole, the surf fitness thing, you know, like I am part of the surf fitness, you know, beast in a sense. And a lot of it just kind of drives me nuts because a bit of it, a lot of it's silly. But the Surfing fitness thing, people need to understand they fall into this spectrum, a bell curve of surf fitness if you want to put it like that. And so at the high end, those that are Surfing a whole lot need to be doing entirely different things from the person that is working at a desk all week and Surfing for two hours on the weekend, you know? And while there might be some similarities, there are opposite spectrums of that bell curve and need to work on entirely different things, you know?
So like you just say, so a guy who is Surfing all the time, he needs to work on probably staying loose, recovery, shoulder health would be, yeah, the opposite of paddling, getting all the scapular retractors, external rotators and stuff going. Whereas the desk worker needs to probably work on just mobility and flexibility and maybe some paddling work, you know, to build up some work capacity. But yeah, no, you're totally right. Very different ends of the spectrum.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I mean, you've got videos for both of those people and everything in between.
Cris Mills
Yeah, 100 % man. And articles that kind of go into things, you know, they should be working on and differences. And so yeah, again, just trying to put out info that is applicable to Surfing of all ages, skill ranges, issues that they may be dealing with.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I'll put a link to your website and your YouTube page in the show notes for those.
Cris Mills
Cheers man, appreciate that.
Michael Frampton
And what's some things that you've done physically that have, training wise, that have made an impact, or that have made the greatest impact on your Surfing personally?
Cris Mills
That's a good one. Because it's been, again, it's been a spectrum. And over the last couple of years, like I've surfed in lots of spurts and then there's been dry spells. And so that kind of changes things. I'd say for the lower body, like let's take lower body for a moment, overall joint range of motion.
So lots of stretching and kind of active mobility, deep squatting positions, hip rotations, kind of yoga -esque stuff to make sure hips, ankles are moving really efficiently. But then throwing on top of that, some heavy strength work for the lower body. Deadlifts, kettlebell swings, plyometric work.
So I've got a pretty healthy lower body, like haven't had any major joint issues. And I think it's attributed to a layering of strength as well as flexibility. Upper body, I've had a pretty good list of shoulder injuries, one of which was a full reconstruction.
So I've spent a lot of time working on upper body strength, posterior shoulder endurance. And I think pull -ups are really good for people to get to for just basic upper body strength. I think all the hanging and pull -up work that I've done has been really beneficial. And that's a tough question. I'm kind of rambling a bit. Was some of that insightful?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I totally agree with the hanging and the pull -ups. As I get better at Surfing and I start attacking the lip, and especially in more powerful waves, I'm really starting to realize how strong your legs need to be.
Cris Mills
Massive. And just in terms of injury prevention as well, you need more strength. If you're trying to do floaters, that force absorption, like you said, a full rail turn. If you're Surfing some proper five, six, even bigger foot Surfing, and you're doing full rail turns, I'm sure somebody has done the research to see the force that's going through the lower body. But you absolutely need some strength through that lower body to just hold.
Yeah, absolutely. For higher performance strength Surfing, faster, more powerful, there needs to be some quality strength and conditioning work for the lower body.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, especially if you're not Surfing that often. Yes.
And then when you get that swell, and you take a couple of days off work, you want to be ready for it.
Cris Mills
That's it. I think that's the biggest thing I probably preach about is just making sure your body is capable of doing what you want to do.
So in my case, in your case, we talk about Surfing a lot. But it could extend to anything. If you're an avid rock climber, there's a lot of things you should and could be doing other than rock climbing. If you're a dancer, same. Gymnast, same. When I'm trying to impress upon people, hey, spend some time rolling on a foam roll, spend 30 minutes in the gym twice a week, it's so you can keep doing what you're intensely passionate about. Because most of us Surfing, we're fanatics about it. You need to keep yourself capable.
Michael Frampton
How much time per week? Let's take the average, let's take a middle -aged average surfer who maybe Surfing a couple of hours during the summer during the week and then surfs a bit more during the weekends. But at the same time has access to a gym during the dark hours. How much time do you think they should spend in the gym?
Cris Mills
If you're doing a quality training program, I would have most of my clients out of the gym in probably 45 minutes. Hour tops. Tops.
Michael Frampton
And... Per.
Cris Mills
Day? Yeah, 45 minutes as a training session. I'd like to see at least two, preferably three sessions a week if they're not Surfing lots. If they're surfing a lot, that could probably scale back. I'd like to see no less than two. But if you can get into the gym two to three times a week, awesome. Four, even better if you can handle that type of load with your Surfing. But what I tell most of my guys in the 35 to 45, I want them doing something probably four times a week. If they're Surfing more, that scales back. Two of those sessions are probably going to be strength sessions in a gym. One of those sessions is going to be some type of cardiovascular output.
So swimming, bike, jump rope, pool, whatever it wants to be, sprinting in a field. And then another one of those would be like a pure flexibility session. And mind you, they're doing flexibility work throughout the week with their training or spending 10 minutes a night on a foam roller or doing a bit of yoga at night. That's kind of the general, again, middle of the bell curve. That's what I would like to see in kind of an ideal world.
Michael Frampton
Okay. And you've got some products online that can help guide people through that sort of workout, don't you?
Cris Mills
Yeah, 100%, man. I have a training program called Surfing Training Success. Kind of a dorky name, but it's a several -month -long training program. It takes people from a start to a finish, building back up and then working in towards more performance training. Really applicable for just about anybody. The only caveat I would say is if you have a current health issue, like injury, you need to have either contact me or have your kind of health practitioner take a look at it. And I have a full flexibility program as well, walking people through the basics of everything they need to know about stretching from the fundamentals to the dynamic stuff. And with both programs, I'm a firm believer if you just teach people need more understanding of their own body. There needs to be more of that, like an educational base so that you only have to seek out professionals when something kind of goes wrong or if you need a bit more clarity.
So that's the biggest thing, just give people the information so they can really start applying it and learning a bit more how to keep their body operating at a bit higher potential.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, we've got to have some sort of maintenance program, don't we?
Cris Mills
100%, man. Look at people in their cars. It's usually more concern and consistency with looking after their car than it is their own body. 100%.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's so true. Just looking at that, you've got some Surfing trips coming up. Yes. It looks interesting.
Cris Mills
Man, totally pumped on those. So this has been an idea I've had for a long time actually. Seeing how the things that have helped me progress and see people I've worked with progress, we started taking those ideas and eventually I met with some really fantastic people where I thought we could pull it off rather than just trying to go at it. I really do feel the people I've brought in on this are top of the field.
So yeah, we're doing Surfing trips. This year we've got one coming up in Morocco. We've got one coming up in the Mental Wise again. We bring some Surfing along and it's myself and I bring along a technique coach. We work with people and their bodies and they're Surfing the entire trip.
So not only are you having a hell of a surf trip but you are beginning to work on all the things you need to really kind of take your Surfing to a next level. I'm sure you've worked with coaches and the body stuff. People kind of stagnate. They hit a plateau and they don't know why. It could be a component of skill and technique but there could be a body component to that.
So we kind of attack it at both angles. Lots of video filming and footage and us in the water yelling at you to turn better or whatever the case may be.
Yeah, the trips are sick, man. It's honestly a dream coming to fruition for me. Really fortunate for that one.
Michael Frampton
All of the things that you could imagine to help improve your Surfing are in this trip.
Cris Mills
Yeah, full on. I've used the word spectrum a lot today and I just realized it is the full spectrum of what I think and the other coaches I work with think people need to work on and become aware of to Surfing better. We all want to surf better. I'm a firm believer that you can Surfing better through your 40s and 50s than you did in your 20s. It's just more knowledge and skill and precision.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, definitely. I've only recently committed to doing some Surfing coaching. Wow, I reckon I progressed in the last 18 months more than I have in the past 10 years.
Cris Mills
It's huge, man. It's huge. The first time I had video analysis and coaching, I've worked with a few.
Like anything in the field, you've got to weed through the mediocrity. It just jumps to the next level rather than begrudgingly trying to figure it out and never figuring it out. It just leaps and bounds and steps people up. On our last trip in the Mental Eyes, we saw some people so drastically change their Surfing that it really blew me away. It absolutely blew me away because people just get stuck in these habits and don't know what they're doing wrong. Until somebody shows you and tells you, you're just going to keep doing it. It's incredible. I get excited about it. Everybody should get a technique coach. Do some filming and video analysis. It'll make you feel like a total kook at first and then really give you the path to getting a bit better.
Michael Frampton
This trip, like you said, has the full spectrum. For example, what's really common that we see as a Surfing coach is, and people often don't want to work on it, but it's the pop -up. When you start seeing how bad and slow and mistimed your pop -up is, you can start working on it. But most often the time, it's not the actual timing and speed of the pop -up that needs the most work. It's actually just the pure mobility of it. That's something that you guys are obviously working on outside of the water during this trip as well.
Cris Mills
Absolutely. Even with clients, the pop -ups are a big one. It goes back to being seated too much. Once the hip loses its potential range of motion, the pop -up's gone. Same with a lot of people who are coming off hip and knee reconstructions. It really drastically affects the pop -up. Then there goes the rest of the wave, especially if you're Surfing some reef breaks with some fast, chunky take -offs. We come at it from the skill and technique aspect. Maybe you just need to tweak the process of your pop -up, or maybe your hip can't move the way you need it to move. That's where I say to really get better at your Surfing, you need to come at it from the body angle, but the technique angle. Make sure the foundations of movement are in place, and then you can layer the technique and the skill on top of it. We had one guy in particular, we were Surfing Macaronis. Fun wave. It can be a bit fast with a take -off, and his pop -up was just rocked. Couldn't do it. It just requires some really thorough joint mobilizations and some heavy, aggressive stretching, and it cleared it up. Good to go.
Michael Frampton
Of course, if you want to improve your mobility, you've got to clean up that food.
Cris Mills
I've written about it a lot. If anybody follows my Instagram, Facebook, I talk about food a lot. I'm a firm believer that it is one of the most critical... It's a foundation of health. Human capacity, it is a foundation. Most people are just kind of fueling the fire of inflammation with their nutrition.
Michael Frampton
What's the diet you most often recommend?
Cris Mills
I'd probably say a paleo template, and I really want to strongly use the word template. If you ask ten people what paleo is, you're going to get ten different answers. It really just comes down to real food most of the time, like 80, 90 %%% of the time. Eat real food that you have to cook. Meats, vegetables, eggs, fruits. People know what real food is. You're being naive if you tell me otherwise, and that's it. If you get real food most of the time, you are well on your way to having a good quality diet. I don't think people should explore the details and the dogmatic approaches of diet until they are doing real food the majority of the time. Paleo template, because again, people... That shifts. If you want to get into the details of paleo, I'm fine with eating some legumes.
Some people might not be. If they've got some autoimmune issues, maybe not the best idea. The template of real food, that's it. Cut out the processed stuff. People are childish with their nutrition, and it's silly.
Totally silly.
Michael Frampton
You've written a lot about it, and there's some good stuff there. What do man, I'm the same.
Cris Mills
You tell people about nutrition?
Michael Frampton
Just eat real food. Yeah.
Cris Mills
It's simple. I've studied so much nutrition, man. Wild nutritional approaches. I've just come back to a real balanced approach most of the time, and only diving into the details and nitty gritty when there are specific health issues or specific goals. Other than that, eat real food most of the time. That covers most of the bases.
Michael Frampton
I personally eat meat most days, but I eat a lot less meat than I used to. I think we overeat meat.
Cris Mills
I think it's very easy for Western populations to overeat meat. Look at the quality of meat the average person's eating. Sick cows don't make healthy steaks. I think most people overeat really low quality meat. I am a big proponent of animal consumption. I think it's just a really nutrient dense source of food.
Some people will be up in arms about that, but spectrum, there's that word again. Nutrition is a spectrum, and figure out what works for you. I eat some animal protein pretty much every day, but I have some days during the week where it's kind of vegetarian. I think with my output and goals and training, animal protein sources are just a really nutrient dense option for me. I just love a good burger or steak occasionally, quite honest.
Michael Frampton
It's got to be balanced, doesn't it? Yeah.
Cris Mills
Absolutely. You've seen it. There's vegans and vegetarians that are just as unhealthy as hardcore red meat eaters. It's yin -yang, man. That concept of yin -yang is ......... I wanted a yin -yang tattoo when I was 16, and I'm now going to be 34, and I still think I might get a yin -yang tattoo. It's so prevalent. There needs to be a balance and an awareness of what you are doing is working for you. People just get stuck on one end, and it becomes potentially negative.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. What about the quality of water?
Cris Mills
I recommend most people, if they've got cash, get a water filter. I even had a client that worked for one of the big water agencies in testing. He said I was absurd for having a water filter, that it wasn't necessary. I think from the things I have heard and seen, I think it really is necessary. There's testing showing pharmaceuticals and municipal water supplies. Then people might say, but there's such minute doses. Then I look at it, and this goes back to nutrition, the whole kind of role of epigenetics in a sense, and the amount of things that we come in contact with, chemicals, pesticides, pharmaceuticals, things in the water, chlorine, fluoride, whatever. Our modern bodies are exposed to a lot of things that human physiology has never had to deal with previously. Who knows what might flip some type of genetic switch in my body compared to your body or whoever else's body. I just think it's a good idea to on the side of caution, just rational caution, and get a water filter. It's not that expensive. Water is pretty critical to the human organism, so I want to drink some clean water.
Michael Frampton
Definitely. When you do start drinking clean water all the time, and then you have a glass of tap water from a big city, it doesn't really taste very good.
Cris Mills
It tastes totally different. You can smell the difference. Absolutely.
Yeah, again, going back to if somebody's got the cat—if you're driving a Mercedes, you should have a really good quality water filter. It's again that yin -yang, where's the balance of that, just the total lack of rationality about health.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, there's a lot of debate about which type of water filter as well. What do you recommend?
Cris Mills
You know, man, it's kind of a tough one. That's where the health world, I think, gets confusing, especially, again, us in the Internet age, there's so much information. Reverse osmosis, I've heard, is fantastic. The last water filter I had was, I believe, an RO filter, reverse osmosis. What's your take on that, man? I haven't dove into the details of that in quite some time. I've actually—my last couple of water filters were just brands and models that had been recommended to me by some trusted sources.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, we've got a reverse osmosis at home, and I like it. Yeah. It goes through a second stage filter where it goes through some mineral stones.
Cris Mills
Yes, right.
Michael Frampton
On. Just a plain reverse osmosis can take a lot of the minerals out of the water as well and actually make it acidic. Ours goes through some mineral stones and brings it to a balanced pH, and it just—yeah, I mean, it tastes clean. That's the main thing.
Cris Mills
If people would just get a quality filter and then just start drinking more water in general—like, the average person is chronically dehydrated and drinks nowhere near enough clean liquid. If they would just start drinking water, and especially filtered water, they're going to notice a difference in just the way they feel, their mental clarity. It does—again, the human organism is pretty damn reliant upon adequate hydration, and most people aren't adequately hydrated, and so it makes a big difference.
Yeah, So, the nutrition, that's a huge one.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. What other lifestyle changes do you recommend for clients?
Cris Mills
You got to figure out where they fall into and you can't just throw a tight paleo diet or something at somebody that's way off in the deep end. So just start cleaning that stuff up. Big on sleep, huge on sleep, and that varies from person to person as well.
Like, I preferably have 8 to 10 hours a night. Some people are good on 6, but the whole sleep health, you know, get a good quality bed, get rid of all the electronics outside the bedRum, shut off the Wi -Fi. I think we're going to—this might sound a little bit woo -woo, but I think we're going to really start finding out that Wi -Fi and all the electromagnetic frequencies we've got around us don't do good things for the human body.
So get rid of the Wi -Fi and the TV. So sleep more. Big on meditation or just being aware of thought processes, you know, just kind of slowing down.
And then, yeah, the other lifestyle stuff, again, it kind of starts to get individualized in a sense. Some things we talked about earlier, develop some type of kind of stretching flexibility, like body health routine, you know, where you're spending maybe 10 minutes in the morning going through some movement routine or 10 minutes meditating. Those are probably the biggest ones. Those are just kind of foundations of are you eating well, are you sleeping well, do you have, you know, overarching positive mindset because, you know, your thoughts impact your physiology. Anybody who tells you otherwise is lying essentially. Those are probably the overarching ones, but I see those as, like Paul Cech talks about, those are the six foundational principles and those things need to be in order. And if they're not, physiology is going to be impacted.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I totally agree. Paul actually reminds me of Paul's got a good little YouTube video, maybe it's even a video series of the four doctors.
Cris Mills
Yes.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one for most people to have a dabble, a look at.
Yeah. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. And I've been doing a lot of research on EMF stuff as well at the moment. It's.
Cris Mills
Gnarly, man. Like they're starting to, I think, make some big shifts in Europe regarding EMF frequencies.
You know, you look at it, the body, the nervous system, electrical impulses, right? We are energy. And if we are surrounded by a bunch of other frequency and energetic waves, that could potentially offset our own innate systems frequencies.
You know, that's again, the simplistic way of how I look at it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah.
So those that are trustworthy and have common sense, just turn your Wi -Fi and turn your phone off at night. And those that want to geek out, I'm going to put a link to the show notes on some of the research on this stuff.
Yeah. And point people in the direction of Jack Cruz, who talks about it a lot. He talks about water and magnetism and light. And.
Cris Mills
He's got some deep thoughts, doesn't he? It's impressive.
Yeah. Yeah. Deep thoughts. But yeah, it's again, like I was talking about the epigenetics of nutrition and water. It's just modern life. Our bodies are exposed to a lot of things that from an evolutionary perspective we haven't been exposed to. And so again, the EMF on the side of rational caution. And yeah, like you said, turn the Wi -Fi off. Turn it off in the entire house. Get rid of your phone.
You know, it's, I think it's a good idea. And we're going to come to find out that it's a very good idea.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's pretty easy too. You just buy a $10 timer for the plug of your Wi -Fi and it's off from, you know, 11 o 'clock to 5 .30 a .m. It's pretty easy.
Cris Mills
Yeah. No, that's a really good idea.
Yeah, throw those notes up there, man. People need to read that stuff and become aware.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and there's blue light at night.
Cris Mills
Yes, I just installed Flux on my laptop. Yeah. Ridiculously enough, I had never heard of it before until I just posted recently on Facebook. They had some research coming out showing exposure to blue light at night offset glucose metabolism.
So think of how that relates to, you know, diabetes and things like that, inflammatory disorders and stuff. So yeah, the blue light. Stop staring at a TV all night, you know.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Cris Mills
Yeah, the blue light stuff is interesting. So yeah, I installed Flux. That's cool. I think most people should throw that onto their computers and phones if they've got a compatible software.
Michael Frampton
Agreed. Again, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But folks, what happens is when blue light or white light is penetrating your eyes, it tells your brain that it's daytime. It's as simple as that.
And then when that light starts going orangey pink, like when the sun is setting, you begin to start releasing melatonin. And then that kicks you off for sleep sort of two hours afterwards.
So this program, Flux, will basically, when the sun goes down, your computer starts taking that sort of candlelight. It takes a little while to get used to.
Yeah, Once you do it for a week, you can't go back.
Cris Mills
It looks a bit orange at first, but yeah, it's good. It's totally good.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Sometimes I turn it off and it kind of hurts my eyes. It's so nice on your eyes. It's a great program if you can download that.
Cris Mills
Yeah, get it. There's no reason not to.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, modern living is not healthy, really, is it? I always tell people, if you look at what... Mother Nature always has the right answer, I think.
Cris Mills
Yeah, it's just inherent. Look at it of nature's wisdom, the inherent intelligence of the body. For all the benefits modern life has brought, it's brought quite a lot of negativity as well. It's a funny line to walk and to see where human health and technology continues to interact and move forward. But it's just going back to the basics, right? If it wasn't happening 150 years ago in terms of the body and food and things like that, just go at it with some understanding and open awareness. Shift your perspective.
Michael Frampton
Don't be a guinea pig.
Cris Mills
Yeah, that's it? We all are too, man. We are a giant lab test, basically.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, anyway, Mother Nature has the answer, I think. We always should look there. When it comes to food, look at the Paleo diet, the primal diet that's blowing up at the moment. That's just essentially what you had to eat before supermarkets were readily available. It's that simple.
Cris Mills
Yeah, the simplicity of it. Somebody posted on one of my posts the other day that they just heard the Paleo diet was really unhealthy, so they weren't going to do it. I'd be curious to see what article or headline she read, but when I hear people bashing the Paleo diet, and mind you, it depends what your interpretation of the Paleo diet is, how can you go against the thought process of just eating real food? I know Paleo gets into the stipulations of no dairy, no legumes, etc., etc., but just the basics of eating real food. It's simple. Bringing it back full circle, we've gotten into some deep stuff, which is awesome, and I nerd out on it and love it, but it just all comes back to human capacity. That's what I try to impress upon through my writing. Human capacity. Are you capable and healthy enough to do what it is you want to do in life? Better relationships with your family, go hiking, and in our case, Surfing. It's this human capacity. All that stuff, all those lifestyle factors are hugely relevant and usually overlooked. People always just go at it from the fitness perspective. There's a lot more to that pie chart of what needs to be included in the realm of health and improving one's health.
Michael Frampton
I always look at it like, again, yin and yang. We need a yin and yang balance of stress and recovery. What people don't realize is that when you eat a piece of cake, that's stressing your body out.
Cris Mills
It's a stressor. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
If you want to eat lots of cake, then you're going to have less capacity to go Surfing. It's that simple.
Cris Mills
Yeah. People don't make that connection. They think cake, and it's totally disassociated from Surfing, but it's not because that cake is influencing every cell in the body in a sense. If you're eating cake every day over the span of a year, it's going to totally shift your physiology towards a negative end to that spectrum again.
Yeah. Joint problems, a 20 -pound extra gut, none of that is helping somebody's Surfing. None of it's helping somebody's life.
Yeah. It's just bringing people to that awareness.
Michael Frampton
That's right. Although every now and then, I have a piece of cake.
Cris Mills
Man. Cheesecake or carrot cake, I will smash some cheesecake and carrot cake. But I'm sure you and I probably have that pie chart of health that yin and yang is probably a lot more balanced.
Yeah. But, man, sweets, I will smash some good sweets.
Michael Frampton
What's It has to be just, I love dark chocolate.
Cris Mills
Your go -to choice for a sweet tooth? Yeah.
Yeah. That's a big one. I think most people should probably be eating really good dark chocolate just from the standpoint of antioxidants and even magnesium. Love good dark chocolate.
And then I really like banana bread, really good banana bread. I just had a consult with a client this morning, as a matter of fact, and we were talking about desserts. I'm like, man, you need to be able to indulge occasionally. I told him, I was like, you need to ––– I sent him a bunch of links to recipes, healthier versions of recipes. I was like, once a week, cook a dessert.
Yeah. Have it in the fridge, you know, and that yin and yang. Go to that yang of sweet tooth now and then. Just cook it yourself. Cook it yourself so you can reduce ––– you can control what's going into it. And eat some banana bread, some dark chocolate, and some cheesecake.
Michael Frampton
Cool, man. All right.
Yeah, bro. We talked about a lot. I'm going to put a lot of links in the show notes for those that want to do some more research.
Cris Mills
Yeah. No, that was cool. And it probably wasn't all as fitness -related as one may expect, coming from a strength and conditioning coach and massage therapist. And, you know, we can ––– there's so much info out there. But it's all, again, coming back to just improve your overall human health and capacity so you can Surfing and seek out some guidance and move and train.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and like if you don't have the time to research, well, you don't have to because Chris has already done it. And he's made, you know, some programs and some videos.
Yeah, absolutely. That you can just crack onto.
So, again, go ahead and do that, people. And cool. We've run out of time, but thank you so much, Chris, for your time.
Cris Mills
I really appreciate it. No, Michael, man. Hugely appreciate it. It's awesome. I think it's fantastic what you're doing. And keep it up, man. Very much appreciate Yeah, cheers, bro.
Michael Frampton
It. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery Podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surfing Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep Surfing.
010: TOM CARROLL - Big Wave Surfing & Surfers Ear
Jun 08, 2016
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: "Mastering Big Waves with Tom Carroll: Safety, Strategy, and Skill"
Are you ready to face the thrill of big wave surfing? Discover how to stay safe, make smart decisions, and level up your skills with insights from surfing legend Tom Carroll.
Big wave surfing pushes the limits of skill, endurance, and mental resilience. In this episode, Tom Carroll shares his wealth of experience, offering actionable tips for beginners and seasoned surfers alike. From selecting the right equipment to navigating wipeouts, you'll learn how to approach big waves with confidence while minimizing risks.
Discover the must-have gear for big wave surfing, including flotation vests and board setups for maximum control and efficiency.
Learn the mental and physical training techniques to stay calm and focused, even during the heaviest hold-downs.
Gain insight into wave dynamics, body positioning, and safety protocols to protect yourself and others in the lineup.
Tune in now to hear Tom Carroll’s expert advice and elevate your surfing game with practical strategies for tackling big waves safely and effectively.
Notable Quotes:
"The better prepared you are, the calmer you’ll be when things get tough out there."
"You don’t want to just go out there and wing it—practice and familiarity with your gear are critical."
"Big wave surfing isn’t just about the wave; it’s about how you approach it mentally and physically."
"The more you tune into the feel of the wave, the better your instincts will guide you."
Big wave charger Tom Carroll talks about the do's and don'ts of big wave surfing, sharing his knowledge and experience so we can make it as safe as possible. We also talk about surfers ear (exostosis), its causes and how to prevent it.
The importance of protecting ears from exostosis (bony growth) and infection when surfing, especially in cold winds, by using earplugs or other protective gear.
The benefits of using Surf Ears, a product that allows hearing while protecting ears, and its effectiveness during big wave surfing.
Risks involved in big wave surfing, such as drowning, being held underwater, shoulder injuries, and impacts from the board or other surfers.
Strategies for handling wipeouts and being held underwater, such as staying calm, conserving oxygen, and looking for light to surface.
The role of training, including breath-holding exercises, swimming, and body awareness, in preparing for big wave surfing.
The importance of using appropriate equipment like flotation vests, and the development of new safety gear by companies like Quiksilver and Patagonia.
Techniques for catching and riding big waves, such as feeling the wave, being aerodynamic, and using the right board setup (quad fins vs. thruster).
The contrast between the experiences of small wave surfing and big wave surfing, and how each can improve the other.
The value of surfing with a buddy or a group for safety and support in big wave conditions.
Outline
Experiences with Big Wave Surfing
Tom Carroll discusses the unique experience of surfing outer reefs compared to closer shore locations.
Waves move much faster through deep water, requiring larger boards for catching them.
The volume and speed of waves near continental shelves or in places like Hawaii and Tahiti present distinct challenges.
Waves with 19-20 second intervals necessitate intense paddling due to their rapid movement.
Modern big wave surfers at spots like Jaws manage immense speeds and powerful swells approaching the reef.
Risks and Safety Measures in Big Wave Surfing
Drowning is identified as the primary risk in big wave surfing.
Mental and physical preparation are crucial for safety.
Inflation vests or flotation devices are recommended to stay above water if necessary.
Surfing with experienced partners and having jet ski support nearby is essential.
Advanced resuscitation certification is advised to handle emergencies effectively.
The recent near-drowning incident involving Aaron Gold at Cloudbreak highlights the dangers even experts face.
Quick access to emergency equipment like defibrillators can be life-saving.
Confidence in equipment, particularly surfboards, is emphasized, along with practicing in various conditions.
Physical Risks Beyond Drowning
Shoulder injuries are a significant concern due to high-speed impacts on water.
Serious shoulder injuries sustained by surfers like Mark Matthews and Garrett McNamara are mentioned.
Keeping arms close to the body during wipeouts can reduce injury risks.
Other potential injuries include cuts from surfboard impacts, broken bones, and dislocations.
The force of big waves can cause severe trauma to the body.
Ear injuries, such as burst eardrums from water impact, are common.
A personal experience of rupturing an eardrum at Sunset Beach left Tom Carroll severely disoriented.
Importance of Proper Equipment
Using the right surfboard is crucial, with larger boards needed for fast-moving waves.
Strong leashes and thoroughly waxed boards for grip are recommended.
Inflatable vests are becoming popular safety devices, though they are not widely available commercially yet.
Companies like Quiksilver, Patagonia, and Billabong are developing specialized inflatable vests for big wave surfing.
Padded flotation vests built into wetsuits are currently a good safety investment.
Appropriate fins are important, with discussions on quad fin setups versus thrusters for big wave conditions.
Techniques for Navigating Big Wave Conditions
Timing dives to get maximum distance underwater when facing large whitewater walls is advised.
Taking a deep, calm breath before diving is crucial; hyperventilating should be avoided.
If disoriented underwater, opening eyes to look for light indicates the direction to the surface.
Multiple waves may hold surfers down, so protecting the head when surfacing is important to avoid collisions.
Staying calm and conserving oxygen when held underwater is vital, as panic depletes air supply quickly.
Fitness and Preparation for Big Wave Surfing
Overall fitness and preparation are emphasized, despite no specific big wave training in Tom Carroll's career.
Swimming, breath work, and strength training, especially bodyweight exercises, help surfers feel strong in big wave situations.
Breath-holding exercises and pool training are useful preparation methods.
Comfort in surfing various conditions, from small waves to larger swells, builds overall skill and confidence.
Gradually working up to bigger waves rather than immediately tackling extreme conditions is stressed.
Thrill and Satisfaction of Riding Big Waves
Despite the risks, riding big waves provides a unique thrill and satisfaction.
Gliding down a large, smooth wave face when conditions align perfectly offers a special feeling.
Surfing big waves significantly enhances skills and confidence in all conditions.
After surfing very large waves, even substantial waves can feel manageable and enjoyable.
Camaraderie and connection form between surfers who share the experience of taking on big waves together.
Transcription
When you're out in the out reefs it's a different experience.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery podcast. We interviewed the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better.
Getting rolled real hard. Getting tuned in to look out for each other out there.
Michael Frampton
I'd like to welcome back to the show Tom Carroll. Tom, welcome back!
Tom Carroll
Yeah thanks Mark, great to be back. Yeah
Michael Frampton
After that last podcast we did in summer, it was actually coming into summer, and we were talking about small waves a lot. Yeah. Just what you were saying about looking at the detail on the wave, it changed my surfing 100%. Awesome.
Like I was always frustrated with one foot slop and I bought a small wave board, a short fat flat board and after that podcast and I just, every time it was small, the beauty is that when it's small and crap like that, there's no one else out. Yeah.
So you've got the line up to yourself and after a few weeks of just trying and trying, I started to click into it and just got, had so much fun.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, and yeah, you can start enjoying like crazy little surfs and you go I had a really good surf and they were just looking at you like, you know, you're tripping. Yeah.
Yeah, there's so much more to offer than our idea of like the perfect wave.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and some of my funnest surfs are when it's small and just clean and I'd even say it's pumping, you know, because it's just, you learn how to surf it and there's no one else out. You go out there and catch 20 waves and you're.
Tom Carroll
Done. And like you say, like pointed you towards the detail, whenever we go in the surf, it's not really about the wave so much as it's about us.
So quite often, you know, well more times than often it's about how we're approaching it. So we walk out in the surf or paddle out in the surf, walk to the water, there's the edge and we take our board out there and we take ourselves, whatever's going on. And our bodies are loose, free or, you know, emotional state's different.
So that always can be a lot more open and we don't know. It's always different for me.
So that's what's cool about surfing. But that can be more open and a really crappy little fun, funny little surf that doesn't look like much and we have more fun in those because we're more open.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and you surprise yourself. Sometimes it's actually a lot better when you get out there than it looks from the beach. And it's just, you find these little walls and fun little runners.
Sometimes it looks like it's not even breaking and you go out and it's actually a really fun wave. No, that was awesome. And it helped a lot, you know, I've started to get into a little bit of big wave surfing. Good. Looking at that, you have to look at the detail on those waves because there's so much wind and stuff when you're that far out to sea. And I wanted to pick your brain about big wave surfing. But before I do, let's talk a little bit about surf as air.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, surf as air. Yeah, I had a little journey with that recently. I had the exostosis removed from my right ear on March 11, which put me out of the ocean for a few weeks. Actually, the doctor wanted me out for a little bit longer, but I'm not one for listening to that stuff too well. I'm a bit naughty, but I just listened to my body and it was working fine. I didn't have any complications.
So it was good. I wouldn't advise you going in the water with complications in your ear because all it does is exacerbate the situation. There's a lot of bacteria in the ocean that can get caught in your ear. And it's a really amazing environment. And what I've learned about it is that it's its own environment in there. And the exostosis is a bone growth that's created by the body to protect one of the most important, well, actually two of the most important senses for survival, which is balance and hearing.
So way back in the day, you know, from back in the cave, balance and hearing from all the way then till now is a very important survival mechanism. So when we get out there in the ocean or whatever we're doing, I understand truck drivers get it because of the wind coming through the window onto the right ear for us in the US and the left ear or in Europe. The wind, water.
Michael Frampton
Not the salt.
Tom Carroll
It's not salt water. It's just all about the wind. It's particularly cold winds. And, you know, right now at the beginning of winter, we're going to get all these sort of southwesters hitting, you know, Sydney in particular, the southerlies and southwest. It's a really good time to protect your ears and get something in your ears, whatever it be, you know, like Blu --Tack or some form of earplugs. And to get sort of regular with that is a really good idea for any surfer, really.
So That's correct.
Michael Frampton
The bone growth is growing over the opening of the ear to protect the eardrum and the vestibular system. So then that's essentially you prevent that bone growth happening if you wear earplugs because they're protecting those two things from the wind.
Tom Carroll
That's correct. And, in fact, I don't know how true this is, but I've heard that there's been some cases where guys have actually protected their ears, their ear canal, either by like a cap, like a wetsuit cap or plugs, and they've had the growth actually recede. And you're just way less likely to get infection in there. And that's our big complication is getting infection inside and behind the exostosis, the bone growth, and then it just doesn't want to... In trying to treat that, it becomes really difficult, especially if it's a large covering or it's a really advanced covering, something around about the 90 %%% plus mark. I think that's when you have those complications where you get water caught in it, you can't get it out. Bacteria in the water starts multiplying in there and having a bit of a party in there. And you become the host to the little guys, and hence you get a bit of an infection.
So we don't want to get that. Anyway, that's the result of the advanced exostosis. But, yeah, it just basically wants to protect that really important part of our body. It basically wants to keep us balanced, and we want to hear and want to be able to hear behind us, especially any dangers that are coming up behind us.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, OK. So it's pretty important to protect your ears, but what's put me off in the past with Blu --Tack and standard earplugs is you just lose most of your hearing. But then I went in and bought some of the Surf Ears.
Tom Carroll
Cool. And it Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Hardly changes your hearing at all. It's quite amazing.
So I've been wearing those, and I'm just used to it, and it's fine.
Tom Carroll
It's been a really nice product to be involved in for myself. And it came along at a really good time for me. I don't know, a bunch of different levels. But it's really nice to be able to hear your friends in the water. I used to use Blu --Tack in my first, my left ear. I had my left ear exostosis removed in 2010, and I just used Blu --Tack. And I knew that I could only use it for a short period of time because I just couldn't hear anyone in the water. I know that seems to be against what people kind of understand of me being in the water, liking to surf with other people on the wave.
You know, I've had some friends, you know. What do you mean you're wearing Blu -Tack in your ears, Tom? Was that another excuse not to drop in, you know, or to drop in?
Anyway, I, or share, you know. But I found it really annoying not being able to hear. And these plugs are working out really well for me.
You know, the ability to hear while I'm plugged up. Yeah. Protecting.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So it protects your ear against that growth forming. Yep. And it protects your ear against water getting in there as well.
Tom Carroll
Correct. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
But lets the sound in at the same time.
Tom Carroll
Yeah. Yeah. The cool thing is, I know they come with a leash, a little leash set up, which I don't particularly use. But I've lost, like, Blu --Tack and stuff out of my ear and things like that. But I was surfing some really big waves on the North Shore of Oahu this year, earlier this year, and using them the whole time. And I didn't lose a pair.
I mean, I got completely annihilated on the North Shore this year. And they stayed in.
So it's a really good design. Those guys, the two Swedish industrial designer surfers who started it off, have done a really good job.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Surf Ears. Awesome product. If you go to surfears .com, you can find out a little bit more. That's S -U -R -F -E -A -R -S dot com. There's a tab there with a list of distributors. The Australian distributor is creatures .com .au as well, by the way. But yeah, go to their website, check them out. Great investment for your surfing longevity. Put a link to those websites in the show notes as well.
So big wave surfing. Yeah.
So last year Matt lent me one of his Sunset, an old single fin Sunset 86. And I started playing around with the bombies out here. And just fell in love with it and ordered my own brand new Webster 86.
Tom Carroll
I think I saw a photo of it. Yeah, for this year.
Yeah. And.
Michael Frampton
Had a crack at Germans on that big swell a couple weeks ago. And so much fun. It's quite a different experience, isn't it, riding big waves? I think the first thing I noticed, I mean, I've surfed eight foot, you know, point breaks and reef breaks and things. But, you know, when you're surfing an eight foot wave on an outer reef or a bombie, the main difference I noticed was just the speed at which the wave is moving through the water. You need a big board to actually catch it because the wave's moving so much faster. It might not be any taller than an eight foot wave on the shore, but the wave's still moving so quickly.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, the volume too, the volume of the wave when you're out in the outer reefs, it's a different experience altogether. You know, especially when you go to places like Hawaii where you really, or Tahiti or anywhere where you're right on the edge of the continental shelf or right out there where there's no continental shelf, the wave speeds, you know, and you're looking at around about 20 second intervals and 19, 20 second intervals, that's when the waves are moving so super quick and, you know, like you've got to pail your guts out to get a hold of one of those waves. And that's what, I mean, I'll think of what goes on now with the boys at Jaws and how they're approaching that stuff. It's just phenomenal how they can, you know, deal with that, the speed of those swells coming towards that reef. I remember towing that wave and just going, man, I'm just flying. I'm just hanging on, little board, little tow board, five eight. These guys are just dropping in on these big, heavy, you know, and the winds come at the face and it's just incredible what they're doing.
Michael Frampton
What do you think is the biggest risk when you start, especially for someone who hasn't had much experience, a beginner to big wave surfing, what's the biggest risk?
Tom Carroll
Drowning. I think, and it works back from there, really. It comes back to, it comes down to being real, really prepared in yourself, you know, and I think it's probably a good idea to get some inflation, you know, vest, some sort of, or something that actually holds you above the water so at least you can get plucked out at some point. It's good to surf with people, you know, not to be the Mr.
Solo guy. I'd get a couple of buddies that we like to do this sort of thing with or tap into some other, yeah, just basically a community of big wave riders, guys that do it together, and so they can support each other in the situations. And maybe even if you've got a buddy who's got a jet ski or you have a jet ski with a buddy, that you use that off the side of the break as a safety precaution so you can pluck the person out. Go and do your advanced resuscitation certificate so you know how to deal with the situation when your buddy's in a bad way. That's going to be critical in any situation. It's always good to have that knowledge, but just recently, Aaron Gold was literally a very experienced big wave rider who's ridden a lot bigger waves than what he was out at Cloud Break last week. And you have a situation where he was knocked out unconscious and he needed to get plucked out. Now, he's lucky to be alive, and it was only through the fast response and the knowledge of the guys on board the boat, and knowing how to get to him, like Mark Healy, and I know that Greg Long was there. These guys have a lot of experience and knowledge, and they were lifeguards there.
So these are really important stuff, and we just don't know. And if you can, even on top of that, if you're going on a mission somewhere and you're thinking you're going to be a big wave rider guy and you've got a lot of experience even, try and have a defib machine.
You know, exercise that on an unconscious body, yeah, because that jolt is the one that's going to bring him back. It's not necessarily you just want to punch him in the chest, freaking, get the moving in, but that's the crux of it. And you can work back from there and make sure your equipment's really good.
Like you said, the Webster, you know, you've got this big board that paddles into waves. You feel confident on that board. I think feeling confident with your equipment's really important, super important. And you're developing a relationship with that piece of equipment. But not just surfing any big waves, but riding it in medium -sized waves.
Yeah, that's yeah, good.
Michael Frampton
What I did. Yeah, earlier with the board and some smaller waves just out here, just got some weird looks, but, you know, it wasn't about that.
It was just wanted to get to know that board. It kind of feels similar to a long board when you're on small waves, and that's how big the boards are, you know, they're pretty massive boards. But the biggest risk of drowning would be hitting your board?
Tom Carroll
Being held down. You know, quite often when we hit the water on a big wave, we're moving at speeds, you know, if we're falling off halfway down the face, we get hit by the wave even, the lip. We kind of get an empty lung hold down, you know, we get the empty lung hold down, and that's that sort of training that really comes into play when we understand how our body's going to respond when we've got no air and we're going to have to hold it for a while. And knowing that you've got, if you've got a, if you know how to use your vest, you know, if you've got an inflation to deploy, you know exactly where that thing is. If you've done it before, you don't go fresh out and do a 15 to 20 foot surf, 25 foot surf, and think you're kind of going to know and just make it up on the moment. Because there's going to be moments even when you do know, even when you've done all the training, that you're going to be shocked because you're in situations where maybe your shoulder's been popped, you're getting tossed over the falls and everything's in shock, your body's in shock, you're feeling super vulnerable and you're in panic, you're going into panic mode.
So that sort of, and it doesn't matter, a lot of people inexperienced, I think, who are experienced have this sort of thing happen. Aaron Gold, brilliant big wave surfer, a lot of experience. I don't know what happened to him, I have no idea. It'd be nice to know his circumstances a bit closer, just to understand, because we're still sort of figuring ourselves out in these realms and the young guys are really going for it. They need to know more and more information on how to care for themselves and be prepared, because they're pushing it more now than ever, and they're, you know, I mean Aaron Gold, anything could have happened to him, he could have been knocked out by this board, he could have just been held down, an empty hole down, and then you just run out of air and you get held down for too long. And you go, you could go into panic mode, then you just lose all your oxygen. And so, and I think training for that stuff is really important. You want to feel prepared and you want to build your confidence levels up and your ability to stay calm, I think that's like a...
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so you might only get held down for 30 seconds, or let's say it's a 15 second period and you get a two wave hold down, that might be 45 second hold down, it's going to feel like five minutes. Four, yeah. And you might be able to hold your breath for five minutes in a safe situation, because you're calm, right, and you conserve that oxygen.
So your ability to be calm when you're under a big wave conserves your oxygen and makes it less likely for you to black out down there, right?
Tom Carroll
Yeah, and it's depending on the situation, like, the better trained you are, the more trained you are, the more confidence you'll have, the more you're going to be pushing it, possibly, depending on your headspace, but you'd think you'd be able to handle it, but there's those odd situations where, like I mentioned just a moment ago, that where things didn't go, when actually everything went against you, like everything, like a big one for me, when I see the wipeout is Garrett McNamara's wipeout at Mavericks this year, where he literally took the, went for this massive wave, and he got some air underneath his board, and I don't know whether you've ever seen this wipeout of his, where he did his shoulder and tore his shoulder off, basically tore his shoulder off, and he ended up doing his, you know, he ended up wiping out and just sliding down the face of the wave, and then his arm got caught in the face of the wave, and then it gets torn, and his humerus ended up snapping, and then the humerus got jammed up into his pec, so, and his, the head of his humerus completely and utterly disintegrated into all these bits, and so he, he's coming back from a big one at the moment, and that's what's happening at the moment, it's for me, it's scary around the shoulders, because Mark Matthews got a really bad shoulder injury from Jaws, just, you know, warming up for the WSL event, and back in December, I think it was, and the one that Billy Kemper won, and that morning session was really windy and crazy, and Mark took that really late drop, and extraordinary drop, but he didn't quite make it, and, yeah, so I'm not quite sure exactly the full extent of his injury, I know Garrett's a bit better, but I know that he's, you know, Mark's just sort of coming back now, he's just, and this is quite a few months later, and you just don't, yeah, our shoulders are vulnerable in big waves. Yeah, Yeah, so when we land on the water, we want to, first thing we want to do is actually put our arms out.
Michael Frampton
Is that just from landing on the water? You do want to?
Yeah.
Tom Carroll
Okay. Same thing happens kind of in snowboarding too, my experience was where I actually hurt my shoulder doing, trying to do a spine jump, and I kind of just went to, I kind of over rotated, and came down and jumped, and fell on the flat a little bit, and it was higher than I'd never really been, and I kind of hit this flat bit, and I kind of went down, and I put my arm straight out, my right arm straight out, and it sort of tore back, and sort of subluxed the shoulder joint. And I think that's what I do too when I wipe out on a big wave, I want to put my arms out to dive, to actually, you know, and it's probably, break the water, which is a good thing, but if we're flying along in situations, and we've got our arms out, even getting pounded in the violent, violence of getting pounded underneath a 20 -foot wave, you can have your shoulder torn around, and just torn out.
So that's, you know, our arms, something we want to try and keep in, somehow close to our body in those wipeouts, and if you think about it, I'd say, you know, when you, next time you get pounded by a big wave, try to pull your arms in. Yeah.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay, but at the same time, you want to break the surface with your or imagine if you got slapped on the ear, that would pop your eardrum.
Tom Carroll
Hands. Yeah, so your neck doesn't get everything.
Yeah, Yeah, that happens a lot. That's very, I've had that happen to me at Sunset Beach. Okay. Really, my first eardrum pop was at Sunset Beach, in like, 86. Amazing day at Sunset Beach, and that was my right ear, and it just got, you know, torn up, and it ended up, yeah, it was a nasty feeling, I just slapped it. I was just, amazing surface, building, and took an air kind of drop on the west peak, and didn't quite land right on the rail, and went down on my right side, slapped it, and went back over the falls, and I had that feeling of, the fact, feeling of just like drinking a whole bottle of scotch in a second.
So, like, it's like, whoa, yeah, just my whole, all my equilibrium was gone, and I couldn't paddle, didn't know which way to paddle. Wow. And a friend of mine came over and grabbed me, and said, where are you going? Because it was luckily the last wave of the set, but, yeah, our eardrums are really vulnerable on the big waves.
Michael Frampton
Sometimes, you know, when it's just a cruise -y forefoot, we just kind of fall off and land anyway, you can't get away with that when the waves are big.
Tom Carroll
Not so much, but I noticed one really cool, I don't know what, you know, like, the thing about Shane Dorian and those guys at JAWS, and Kyle Lennie actually told me, he goes, I go, so when do you actually deploy these inflations, you know, like inflatable vests? And he goes, I don't know, like, he goes, I've just been at JAWS last week. This is Kyle, and Kyle's a really nice guy, and he's always really super enthusiastic, and goes, yeah, I know, I've been watching what those guys are doing. I was on the edge of this freaking 60 -foot wave, and I'm watching Shane Dorian come down this wave and lose it on a 60 -footer, and I'm watching him, what he's doing with his vest, and he pulls it as he's going down. OK.
You know, he's just going down, he just pulls that thing, so it inflates as he's getting, I mean, you might, and you get more of a pounding straight away, and you're going to get it. You're going to be thrown around a lot with all that inflation.
Anyway, he pulled it, and Kyle said he actually counted him out. He said, one thousand, two, one thousand, three, one thousand, four, one thousand, and all of a sudden Dorian's up.
So he was under four seconds on a 60 -foot wave. Wow. And you think, well, that's a good idea.
Yeah. Because I wasn't quite sure myself, when am I going to deploy this thing?
You know? Yeah. We're all trying to figure it all out at the moment.
Yeah. Everyone's pushing it out there.
Michael Frampton
So a vest is a worthwhile investment.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, if we can get a hold of a vest at this point, yeah. There's going to be some really good stuff come up in the next few years, where we'll be able to sort of safely approach, you know, bigger waves, bigger conditions.
Michael Frampton
So do they just have little compressed air canisters inside?
Tom Carroll
Yeah, CO2 canisters, and they pop. They're the same mechanism as on, you know, like a life vest that you'd get from underneath your seat on an aeroplane.
So very similar to that. Some have smaller canisters than others, but I think the big thing is for that actual inner, the structure of the inner bladder. It must be really strong and heavy -duty, you know, and have a half -grade inner bladder to inflate because that thing's going to pop under the pressure.
Michael Frampton
So they have other vests that are just, they have lots of spongy sort of floaty material in them as well. Have you used those?
Tom Carroll
Yeah, floatation pads, like, set into the suit. I mean, that's being used a lot more today. And that's really helpful. It does help you feel like you're going to come straight up. I've used that quite a bit. And on the vests, we use the PDF, PFDs, I should say, PFDs for using on the jet ski and towing. We can swap those out and ride without the vest or put them on.
Yeah, it's so good to feel like you're coming up on a big wave. But it's funny to think that I surfed that many waves when I was younger. And significant size.
You know, the 20 -foot range with just a pair of board shorts on, without a care kind of in the world. So it's a very strange thing today to think that we've got to do all this stuff, you know. But I think it's a really good idea.
You know, when I think of what happened to Aaron Gold the other day, I know that his family will be really bummed. Yeah, and I know that we've lost a few along the way. Sian Mollissey, and the list goes on, Todd Chester and so on.
So we want to protect ourselves.
Michael Frampton
What are some other risks?
Tom Carroll
Well, of course the board hitting you. You know, going in you.
I mean, we're just like this bag of gel, really. You know, a bag of jelly and sinew.
So as soon as you pop through the skin, the board just sort of slices through any sort of flesh real easy. Fins and so on.
Like we all probably have felt before. You know, broken bones and dislocations. And yeah, stuff like that.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
It is a very different game. I remember a clean -up set came through last week. And there was another surfer. He was at least 20 metres away from me. And we got tumbled by the whitewater. And I came up and he was right there on top of me.
Yeah. So you don't realise how far the other surfers can move if they're in a slightly different position of the wave.
So you've got to stay well clear of others as well.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, keep a real good eye out for others. And particularly get really clear about how long your leg rope is. And how that plays out. And how heavy your board is and how strong your leg rope is. It's really important. You want a good one. I want a good leggy.
Yeah, I've had that one.
Michael Frampton
My leg rope broke out there.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, out there. I've had quite a few boards break out there. I had to do a stand -up paddleboard out there and surfed out there. And the leg rope popped and I had to swim with the damn paddle. You don't want that. How did you go on the swim? Did you catch your Yeah, just before the back bummy pulled up?
Michael Frampton
Board? Yeah, it wasn't too bad.
Yeah, it went straight towards the beach actually. It didn't drift over towards.
So it was fine. It was a 100 metre swim. Nice. I'd already caught three waves. My last wave actually, I hit a bump halfway down the face. And I landed on my butt and I got quite a good saltwater enema.
Tom Carroll
Good, yeah. That feels odd.
Michael Frampton
And a good ball slapping. Yeah, ball slapping.
So you just don't realise how fast you're going until water feels like concrete. Yeah, If you're in that situation where you get bounced and you feel like you're going to either land on your bum or your feet, which would you choose?
Tom Carroll
It does. It's hard.
Michael Frampton
Would you straighten your legs out or would you curl up?
Tom Carroll
I don't know. I'm sort of more inclined to do a bomb. My knee, I've got to be really careful with my right knee.
So I'm almost sort of subconsciously preserving my right knee. So everything else comes second, third or fourth. I don't want to go straight legged into anything. It's so on the moment. For me, it's so on how I'm doing it at that very moment. And being in a good headspace, I can sort of feel it out.
And then take it like this. Many wipeouts I've had before or moments where I've had to take that kind of hit.
Michael Frampton
Have you done much training for big waves or is it all through experience?
Tom Carroll
Never really did any really specifically really big wave training. I did swimming and some breath work and some strength work on the body where it's mostly body weight work to get everything supported. Kind of almost like strength work, real resistance training before Hawaii. And whilst in Hawaii, that's helped me feel solid and strong in the situation.
Michael Frampton
So what's the breath work you've done and when and how do you use that?
Tom Carroll
I got it off Nam, the first stuff we did with Nam. I don't know how long ago that was. It was a while back I did it with the Sandal Warrior. He came and did some stuff with us at a training camp. And we did the session in the 25m pool on the Gold Coast. And Nam put us through a session, some empty lung, whole laps, empty lung work. And that made a lot of sense to me so I've done more of that stuff. That's tricky on your own. I needed to be with more people. I did a few things with using Russian kettle bells running underneath the water in the pool.
And then putting myself to the limit with that. And sprint training in the pool.
So it's just all interval. So you're really stretching your lungs out. Doing swim squads, things like that just to build that capacity.
So it helps the confidence in the ocean, knowing that you can actually swim yourself out of situations. I think that's really important to know that you've got to be able to be ready to help someone or be ready to help yourself out of the situation to be strong enough to do that.
Michael Frampton
So getting in touch with what it feels like to be underwater with no air in your lungs.
Tom Carroll
Nam's got some really good stuff. The BET training is awesome.
Michael Frampton
And those courses are readily available as well. He's pumping So jump on board that.
Tom Carroll
Them out everywhere, is he? Great.
Yeah, I want to tap into that too. I've got a bit of a break coming up with a knee surgery. And I need to, during that time, I've set a bit of a program. But just to, yeah, I have to feel it out for a week. But then I'm getting into that stuff and get myself prepped. It's a bit of an unknown world with a weird knee at the moment. But that'd be a cool place to go and challenge myself.
Michael Frampton
Another thing you mentioned on the last interview was the feel of the wave. And that's something I found when surfing the big waves you've really had to be tuned into because by the time you're about to drop down you can't really see anyway because there's so much wind and chop.
So it is all feel. So you've really got to... I've done a lot of practice of being aware, a lot of training with my eyes closed.
So I was in touch with that and I think that helped a lot as well.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, that would.
Michael Frampton
Because the chop and the wind, even if it's not windy, the wave speed itself makes it windy.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, you get this wind speed at the top of the waves so different compared to the normal. I'd like to know what that sort of thing is. I always sort of had this kind of fantasy about having one of those bat suits when I was in... I didn't even know about those glider suits. But in the 80s, because we were surfing Sunset Beach and when a west swell would come in and you get this trade wind and the wind speed at the top of the wave, you literally had to feel your way, like I said, just feel your way into the paddle and then there's a time when you just couldn't see.
So you needed to actually feel your way over and down into it. But I was so hungry to get the wave that I'd just override it. But yeah, there's something in that, what you're saying, like doing training with your eyes closed, training, like bouncing with your eyes closed, doing that sort of stuff. Get body awareness, come back to your body all the time. But it's always in a sort of full action mode.
So you just sort of almost do it in a full action movement.
Michael Frampton
But when you stand up and you're dropping in, you've got to be really careful with how you hold your hands. Because you've got to be aerodynamic as well. Doing the boTom Carroll turn is almost done with your hands, I felt, just through the wind.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, it's all very subtle. And you can see that when the guys are taking the drop at yours, and every little movement is so important for them. Every little movement, every little adjustment, it's all feel. It's no thought. It's just all on the moment feel. And kind of sensing where you're at, really kind of a broader overall sensing of the situation. And being right on something underneath your feet that's moving so quick. And the little bumps and chops, which actually can be a lot bigger out there.
So you're always adjusting to that stuff. So you kind of, yeah, I love that feeling though. That feeling of feeling way down a big face. And when you get one of those ones that is smooth, it's like really special. I can imagine, yeah.
Michael Frampton
You almost wanted like a five knot onshore.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, no, the onshores are good on a big wave. Yeah, you get that glidey kind of...
Yeah, you get the first wave just knocks all the... You know, smoothens out the water.
And then you get the second one that actually stretches more and draws a little bit more maybe. And you just get this nice big smooth face.
Yeah, I love that. When it's slightly onshore, it's probably better. And plus you're paddling, it's much easier.
Michael Frampton
Cool. And I mean, despite all the risks and stuff, it's an amazing experience, isn't it?
Yeah.
Tom Carroll
And it's.
Michael Frampton
Amazing for the rest of you. Like after that day, having surfed those waves, and then I surfed the next day and it was still quite big, but I just went out to the local beach on my shortboard and it just felt so easy. And it felt so much faster after having had that experience. I guess that every surf you have when it's big kind of adds on to that.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, I know that my buddy Ross Clark -Jones, he's like... Who will spend a lot of time in Hawaii surfing the biggest waves he possibly can. And months, especially in his last one, where El Nino, it was just a crazy year. Whereas it'd be 10 or 12 feet and he's like going yawn.
You know, like, that's boring. He's off doing something completely different. Because it's small, you know, like anyone's 10 or 12 feet. It's small. Think about that headspace. It's pretty funny to think that.
Michael Frampton
It's a cool contrast, really improving your small wave game and then having to crack at big waves. Both those extremes just makes the 2 to 4 foot surfing so much more fun.
Tom Carroll
Yeah. And you go jump down your little boards and they just, you know, they move around the wave. Your body responds differently and it's more gymnastic in the movement. It's not a... Whereas it's more of a static hold. On big wave surfing it's more of a static hold and you're kind of making those really tiny adjustments going down the face and even off the boTom Carroll turn. You can't move around on a big board like that. No. As soon as you jump back down the little board and your little waves are so much fun. There's not that threat. You don't have that kind of fight or flight thing going on anymore. It's more like this sort of nice feeling of just being calm in the water and kind of a calm froth. More of a calm froth.
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so to summarise, if someone wanted to have a crack at some bigger waves, they need the right equipment. Yep. They need to be with someone who's done it before, ideally. Correct. At least one other person.
Tom Carroll
That's if you're starting out. Yeah. And it's always good to be with someone anyway, I think, in those conditions. I think being the solo guy isn't necessarily...
You know, you can try it, but your chances... If something happens... It's not worth the risk. It's not worth the risk, yeah. And plus, you really enjoy it with a buddy. Taking the risk. The connection you get after it is awesome.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And you'd be surprised.
Sometimes I've surfed backbombing, and it's not actually that much swell, but it's breaking. And it's not even almost big wave surfing, but you can still go out there and experience... Feel it, yeah. ...what it feels like to catch a fast -moving wave on a big board. And that's how I got into it last year and that prepared me for the big swell last week.
So ease into it as well.
Tom Carroll
Try to ease in. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Keep it safe. The right equipment. Where do you get the vests from? Is there a company that's doing some good ones?
Tom Carroll
Yeah, there will be. They will be coming up. And I think there's been an awesome collaboration between Quicksilver and Aqualung. And I'm not sure when that's going to be available on a commercial level out for the market. I know that they'll roll out at some point, but I'm not sure exactly when. But they'll have all different levels. I know they will. It's a great vest, and a lot of the guys were using them in Hawaii this year and were supplied them for the Eddie O 'Cow event. Yep. And the competitor got a vest to use and to keep, which was really cool. And I know that Patagonia made a vest set up for underneath the wetsuit. And you can make holes in the wetsuit to get the tabs out to pull. I've had one of those, which was effective. And I'm not quite sure what Billabong did. They had something going too. I'm not sure what they're doing now. It's a tricky part of the business to get involved in. It's a whole new world, a safety device as such. And so they've got to get it right.
Yeah, and being liable is a big one for a big company or a company out there. Yeah, so I'll just keep looking out. I know that there's, in Europe, there's already, there's Decathlon, which is a huge department store chain, and they have a big sporting department store chain. And they do a series of inflatable vests just for people, really basic ones. Yep. That are available, I know, in Europe, and I'm not sure, I know in France and so on. But they're for anyone. They're just basic kind of vests you could put over anything. They'd do the same thing.
Michael Frampton
So they are out there for the general public already.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, but they didn't look very secure to me. And for a surfer's point of view, having it really nice and secure, tight to the body, and when designed specifically for getting rolled real hard, that's what we want.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. But for now, a padded flotation vest is going to be.
Tom Carroll
A good investment. Yeah, at the moment, a good investment is padded flotation and, yeah, like, set into the wetsuit. I know a few companies that do that, which is really cool.
Michael Frampton
So when a cleanup set's coming through, and you've got this massive wall of whitewater coming towards you, do you wait till the last second and you jump on, you stand up on your board and dive down? What's the best strategy in that situation?
Tom Carroll
Yeah, you just set it. Just try and get, yeah, big old whitewater. Just time it so you can get some distance underneath the water, away from the whitewater. You're going to get grabbed by that whitewater, by the way. You're not going to escape it. If it's like, if the 15 -foot whitewater coming towards you, 10 to 15 -foot whitewater, for your average sort of person, you know, approaching you while riding, even an 8 -foot, 6 to 8 -foot whitewater, well, it's going to grab you as you dive down. But on a deeper wave, you know, with the reefs, you know, and you get a 15 -foot wave, 15 -foot whitewater to 20 -foot whitewater, that thing's going to grab you and rip and tear you no matter what.
So, and you've hopefully got some sort of flotation device with you. But just get ready to get ripped and torn. But a good thing is to try and get a bit of distance. OK, Real lot of breath in there.
Michael Frampton
So a deep breath and then...
Tom Carroll
Dive under.
Michael Frampton
Don't.
Tom Carroll
Hyperventilate. Yeah, don't panic. Because you just want to take one big, one nice, big, even breath, right down deep into your, right down deep in towards... If you can think about when you take a breath, if you practice breathing down into your hip area, right down to the lower area of the abdomen, you can get plenty of air in there and have plenty of time.
Yeah, In itself, yeah, you're going to come up.
Michael Frampton
And that's a flotation device in itself. And do you count while you're under?
Tom Carroll
I never... No, never count when I'm down there.
Michael Frampton
After a certain amount of time, should you be trying to swim up or...?
Tom Carroll
My rule of thumb is that after a little while, if I'm feeling a little bit rolled round and a bit disorientated, I will open my eyes up and look for the light. And wherever we see light, it's like, you know, it's upwards.
So, yeah, we just look for the light and sense that light. We might not see it straight away, but we'll sense it, where it's at.
And then there'll just be darkness and lightness and those things will become apparent. And you just go up through the veins. Usually, there's sort of, you know, clouds of white water.
And then there's veins of light. It's going to hit up through the veins of light. OK.
Michael Frampton
So the veins of light, there's less turbulence?
Tom Carroll
Generally, less turbulence. And you'll find your way to the surface, yeah. OK.
Michael Frampton
And do you climb your leash?
Tom Carroll
I've done that before. I've pulled my...
You know, really felt where my board is through the leash. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Is that always up, though?
Tom Carroll
Not necessarily. And if you can't feel the tension on your leash, be aware that board's going to fly around somewhere. And that's sometimes more scary.
Yeah, it's true. The board could be flying around, so you just be really aware that board could be flying towards you. It's like a loose cannon.
So if you're not feeling it, really protect yourself as you're coming. Protect your face and, you know, put your arms up and definitely protect your face. That's my response to that feeling of not knowing where my board's through. No tension on the leg rope. I've had boards in the face. I've had boards in the head. And I've had...
Yeah. I've actually had a leg rope wrapped around my neck from behind.
So my leg was kind of scorpioned over the back and the leg rope was wrapped around my neck and being pulled, the board being pulled, like, the other way. So I had to kind of pull the tension off the leg rope to get it off my neck, and then all of a sudden it went loose. And I didn't know where it was and then kind of thing came back and slapped me in the face. It was the most bizarre scenario I'd ever had. That was inside Sunset Beach. I'll never forget that. It was so scary. Because I was in a weird position. I don't know how I got in there, but that was a shocker.
So, yeah, be careful. Be careful with that leg rope. And there are times where I've pulled myself up by the leg rope.
Michael Frampton
So when you're coming up towards the light, you're so in need of a breath. Yeah. But you've got to be aware you've got to protect your head when you break the surface. Because it's not just your board you've got to worry about. Other people. Even he might have been 30 metres away from you when the wave came, but he might be right on top of you by then. Or someone else's board, their leash might have broken and might be coming straight towards you or anything.
So, and I'm sure that sometimes when you're coming up, you're about to see light, you're about to get a breath, and then the next wave hits. And you go under again.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, I've had that one. That's tricky. But the most difficult one is that one where we've got to hold.
Yeah, that empty -lunk hold down. We had all the air blown out of us on the slide down the face and the impact. And that's what we've got to kind of train for, really. OK.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. I think that's all the questions I have. I've got all ammoed up for the next session.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, good. Good grip too. Bit of wax helps.
Michael Frampton
The right wax.
Tom Carroll
The right wax and a really good covering. I'm not one for really big wax jobs, but when I go out and it's solid, I give myself a good wax up.
Michael Frampton
The whole board too.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, the whole board.
Michael Frampton
Lots of bumps and combing. You What about the quad versus thruster on those big boards?
Tom Carroll
Want to have a nice grip. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really important thing.
Well, the quad is a bit more efficient with water flow through the back of the board. And when you've got a thruster, the thruster tends to feel more solid, you know, and more anchored down. But there's more drag. OK. With the center fin aiming directly straight, the center fin kind of gets in the way. As soon as you lay the board on the rail or you get the board right over on the edge, the center fin actually starts to play a kind of a, more of a hindrance role.
Like it starts to just slightly get in the way of the way the water wants to move off the back of the board. And when we have the quad set up and the fins are set up correctly in line with themselves in a really proper alignment with the point way off, on towards, off the nose of the board.
So they've got this really nice angle to the fin. There's, it's way better into the angle of attack of the turn. The water wants to come through the back of the board unhindered. And we just get a little bit more release.
So we're able to escape the wave better and actually hold on to speed. And you're getting a lot of speed like you mentioned on the wave. And we want to kind of hold on to that speed. And the quads are just a little bit better, a bit more efficient in the water flow off the back of the board. You can reduce the size of your fins.
So you've got less drag again and use more of the rail of the board to hold Yeah, small stiff fin and probably 70 -30 foil on the front and 50 -50 on the back.
Michael Frampton
You. So a small stiff fin is fine.
Tom Carroll
Okay. So you've got this sort of real neutral fin.
Michael Frampton
So a quad set up would be better for a beginner because it's faster?
Tom Carroll
Look, the quad set up is definitely for someone who wants to ride really big waves and push it. It doesn't really matter whether you're just starting out and feeling it out. But it's just going to be a little bit more efficient. With your advanced surf or intermediate, the board, the quad set up on a bigger wave works more efficiently.
But then again, some people like the more sturdy feeling of being on a thruster. And that's a really personal thing. I know the Ross Clark Jones, he loves his thruster. And he's really effective on it. There's no doubt about it.
The one on the back that sits in. Yeah, the one that Kelly Slater kicked off with a few years back.
Michael Frampton
Have you ever tried that on big waves?
Tom Carroll
No, I haven't. No, I haven't tried it on a big wave. Probably not a bad idea to think about. If that feels better for you on a smaller wave, then you might be able to want to... Because what happens on a big wave, you're traveling a lot faster, the physics of it means that the fins get bigger.
So the size of the fin does matter on a bigger wave. So that's what happens. And you can reduce the size of the fins.
Michael Frampton
OK. Cool. I think we covered Tom.
Tom Carroll
A lot. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, Mike. Thanks, It's an honor.
Michael Frampton
That was valuable information.
Tom Carroll
It's good. I like sharing. It's just learning. We're still learning.
Still figuring it out. We've come a remarkably long way, but we've still got a long way to go, I think.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. I feel much better now. Kind of. A few stories that put me off, but some information that will help me to keep it as safe as possible at the same time, which is good.
Tom Carroll
And it's just getting tuned in to look out for each other out there. That's the key.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. All right. Thanks, Tom. Awesome. Cheers, Mike. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep surfing.
009: MARTIN DUNN - Surf Coach - Former Head Coach Team Australia ('09-'13)
May 18, 2016
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast:Unleashing Surfing Potential: Fundamentals, Technique, and Coaching Insights with Martin Dunn
What separates an average surfer from one who truly rips? Discover how mastering fundamentals like bottom turns, wave positioning, and speed creation can transform your surfing.
In this episode, legendary surf coach Martin Dunn shares his decades of experience coaching everyone from beginners to WSL pros. Whether you're struggling with consistency or want to elevate your performance, Martin reveals actionable tips to improve your technique, make better decisions in the water, and maximize every session.
Learn why the bottom turn is the cornerstone of powerful, fluid surfing and how to perfect it.
Discover techniques for generating speed and maintaining flow, even in less-than-ideal conditions.
Get insights into surf-specific training, decision-making strategies, and how to harness your potential both in and out of the water.
Play this episode now to gain practical, expert advice that will enhance your surfing experience, no matter your skill level!
Notable Quotes:
“The better you surf, the more fun you have.”
“A good bottom turn is the key to power, speed, and flow in surfing.”in Dunn
“Even the best maneuvers start with solid fundamentals. Without them, consistency is impossible.”
“Every surfer should learn speed creation—it opens up all conditions and breaks.”
“Perfect practice makes perfect. Focus is essential to truly improve.”
Martin has 30 years experience as a surf coach, from beginners to WSL athletes. In this podcast Martin discusses the fundamentals of performance surfing and provides loads of tips for you to take your surfing to the next level.
Martin Dunn started surf coaching in 1986 after completing an Associate Diploma in Sports Science.
Surfers should spend time observing the waves before paddling out to identify the best waves and positioning.
The bottom turn is the most important maneuver in surfing, and proper technique is crucial for generating speed and power.
Generating horizontal speed after popping up is a crucial skill that opens up more surfing opportunities.
Wave selection and depth of takeoff are common mistakes in tube riding.
Consistency in surfing comes from focusing on fundamentals like bottom turns and speed generation before progressing to advanced maneuvers.
Simulations and land drills help ingrain proper body positioning and movement patterns for surfing.
A surfer's desire to improve is the main factor in their ability to progress and become a better surfer.
Martin Dunn provides online coaching services by analyzing video footage and providing personalized training videos.
Martin Dunn has mentored and educated other surf coaches through programs and consultancy work.
Outline
Introduction of Martin Dunn
Martin Dunn is introduced as a surf coach with over 30 years of experience.
He has worked with surfers of all levels, from beginners to World Surf League (WSL) professionals.
His notable clients include Adrian Ace Buckin, Julian Wilson, and Sally Fitzgibbons.
Martin served as the head coach of Team Australia from 2009 to 2013.
He was instrumental in creating the level two criteria for Surfing Australia and the International Surfing Association.
Martin's website, martinDunn.com.au, offers a wealth of free videos and content for surfers looking to improve their skills.
Martin’s Background and Coaching Philosophy
Martin began surfing at the age of 12.
Dissatisfied with their job as an adult, they pursued an Associate Diploma in Sports Science (sports coaching) at Northern Rivers College (now Southern Cross University) in 1986.
This general coaching course sparked their interest in surf coaching.
Over time, they became increasingly involved and skilled in the field.
Martin's coaching philosophy centers on helping surfers improve, regardless of their skill level or goals.
They believe that the better one surfs, the more enjoyable the experience becomes.
Importance of Pre-Surf Assessment
Martin emphasizes that surfing begins before entering the water.
He stresses the importance of assessing conditions upon arrival at the beach.
This assessment involves deciding where to position oneself, identifying landmarks to use while in the water, and determining the types of waves to catch based on one's ability.
Martin notes that the best surfers on any given day are usually riding the best waves, which is no coincidence.
These surfers have learned to read the ocean, understand wave patterns, and make informed decisions about positioning and timing.
Common Mistakes by Intermediate Surfers
Martin identifies a significant mistake made by intermediate self-taught surfers: not spending enough time observing the conditions before entering the water.
He advises spending at least five minutes on the beach watching sets break to better understand the rhythm of the ocean and identify optimal surfing spots.
This observation helps surfers make more informed decisions about where to paddle out and which waves to catch, rather than simply following the crowd or seeking isolated areas.
Take-Off Positions and Their Implications
Martin discusses various take-off positions on a wave peak and their implications for surfing quality.
He explains that taking off on the shoulder typically results in a flat, low-speed first maneuver, while taking off behind the peak allows for a better quality turn due to the steeper wave face.
Martin emphasizes the importance of peak positioning and decision-making, noting that some surfers consistently make suboptimal choices due to habit or personal preference.
He advises surfers to be aware of their tendencies and adapt their approach based on wave conditions.
The Bottom Turn
Martin describes the bottom turn as the power maneuver of surfing.
He expresses concern about the current trend of surfers dismissing its importance in favor of progressive aerial maneuvers.
Martin explains the mechanics of both major and minor bottom turns, emphasizing the importance of body compression, hand positioning, and timing.
He notes that a well-executed bottom turn is crucial for setting up quality top turns and maintaining speed and flow throughout a ride.
Improving Top Turns Through Better Bottom Turns
Martin discusses how problems with top turns often stem from improper execution of the preceding bottom turn.
He explains that issues such as lack of speed or flow coming out of a top turn can frequently be traced back to an inadequate or rushed bottom turn.
Martin advises focusing on the bottom turn to improve overall performance and consistency in surfing.
Tube Riding Techniques
Martin addresses common mistakes in tube riding, including over-attacking waves and poor wave selection.
He emphasizes the importance of calculated decision-making when choosing waves and positioning for tube rides.
Martin provides specific advice for slowing down in tubes, such as dragging an arm in the wave face up to the elbow or shoulder until the lip is visible in one's peripheral vision.
Generating Speed While Surfing
Martin discusses techniques for generating speed while surfing, emphasizing the importance of being light on one's feet and using arms effectively.
He describes a specific technique involving jumping to one's feet, straightening the body, and throwing both arms forward to unweight the surfboard and accelerate.
Martin stresses that this skill is crucial for all surfers, as it provides more options and allows for better turns and performance in various wave conditions.
Simulations and Dry-Land Training
Martin recommends using simulations and dry-land training to improve surfing technique and body positioning.
He suggests using skateboards, particularly Streetboard skateboards, to simulate various surfing maneuvers.
Martin also advises surfers to study videos of skilled surfers and practice body simulations as part of their pre-surf warm-up routine.
He emphasizes the importance of focused, repetitive practice to ingrain proper body movements and improve overall surfing performance.
Coaching Philosophy and Approach
Martin's coaching philosophy focuses on helping surfers become self-sufficient in their performance.
He works with surfers over extended periods, typically two to three years, to significantly improve their skills.
Martin emphasizes the importance of surfer motivation and desire to improve, as the surfer must ultimately do the work to change their performance.
He tailors his approach to each individual, starting with easily achievable goals to build confidence and progressively addressing more complex aspects of their surfing.
Mentoring Other Coaches
Martin has extensive experience mentoring other surf coaches, including their work with Surfing Australia and as the national coach for Peru.
He provides education and guidance on coaching techniques, problem-solving in challenging conditions, and effective communication with surfers.
Martin offers various resources for coaches and surfers, including online courses, instructional products, and one-on-one coaching sessions.
Personal Preferences and Inspirations
Martin rides D'Alberg surfboards and prefers shorter boards that allow for rail turns and combinations of maneuvers.
He cites Kelly Slater and Mick Fanning as significant inspirations in men's surfing, praising Slater's comprehensive skill set and Fanning's transformation into a surfing great.
In women's surfing, he considers Stephanie Gilmore the benchmark but notes the emergence of new talent.
Among goofy-footers, Martin admires Sean Cansdell and Adrian Buchan for their unique styles and professionalism.
Transcription
And position is critical to a great bonter. The better you Sur, the more fun you do have.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Sur better.
Michael Frampton
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Today I'm chatting with Martin Dunn. And Martin is a Sur coach with over 30 years experience as a surf coach and even more as a surfer himself. Martin works with all levels of surfers from beginner right through to WCT, or WSL I should say, surfers on the tour, including Adrian Ace Buckin, Julian Wilson, Sally Fitzgibbons, the list goes on. Martin was the head coach of Team Australia between 2009, 2013. Martin created the level two criteria for Surfing Australia and International Surfing Association. I'm gonna stop it there because I just keep going on with your bio. If those of you that want to learn more about Martin can go to Martin's website, martinDunn .com .au and go to the about page, you can read up all about that. It's actually a really awesome website with loads of free videos and free content for all surfers just to learn more about surfing in general, surfing techniques, loads of stuff. You've obviously spent a lot of time making those videos, Martin. That's awesome. And tell me, how did you get into surf coaching?
Martin Dunn
I started surfing when I was 12. And then, you know, when I was into my adult life, I wasn't happy in the job I was working at.
So I decided to go to the university. And in those days, there was a course at Northern Rivers College, which is now Southern Cross University, which was an Associate Diploma in Sports Science, which is sports coaching.
So I went and did that, and that was just a general coaching course. And from that, I started dabbling in Sur coaching at that point. And that was in 1986, so it was a long time ago.
And then I just found the whole thing fascinating and just kept on doing it and progressively getting more involved and more skilled in what I do. So that in a nutshell, it's a long journey, but that's basically where I started.
Michael Frampton
And still going strong today, as I can see. Yeah.
Martin Dunn
I still really enjoy it. You know, my ethos is that whoever I work with, I wanna make them a better surfer, whether they're a 10 -year -old kid wanting to learn how to do a re -entry or a WCT surfer wanting to surf better hits.
You know, like everyone's got different needs and aspirations, and I'm happy to work with it at any level. As I said, I'm keen to help people be better surfers, to be a better surfer. And to have that idea and that goal in your business goal, well then obviously it's much easier to do a good job because you're always trying to do a good job with that in mind.
Michael Frampton
I was looking at some of your videos on decision -making skills, and just sort of realising that really surfing starts, when you start, so when you pull up to the beach and you start looking at the line -up and looking where to sit and where to paddle out, that's when surfing starts, isn't it? It's not when you stand up on a wave.
Martin Dunn
Yeah, for sure. You know, like if, you know, when you rock up to the beach for the day, you know, and you have a look at the Sur, you can make a lot of decisions about the surf before you even paddle out. And, you know, obviously the decisions are, where are you going to position yourself?
You know, the landmarks you're going to use when you're in the water, the type of waves that you want to catch, you know, consummate with your ability as a surfer. And then, you know, obviously when you get in the water, well then you've got all the decisions about your positioning using landmarks. And, you know, for some people that comes naturally, you know, with experience, but other people, they need instruction on learning the cues that they need to look for. Because, you know, really when you're out there, there's a lot of information going around. There's a lot of surfers in the water. There's a lot of ways that you can surf a beach on a particular day. But if you want to Sur well then obviously there's different things you should do that help you surf well. And when you think about it, the best surfers on a given day are usually riding the best waves. And that's no coincidence. It's the fact that those good surfers have already learned all those cues. They've actually spent some time on the beach looking at the ocean, knowing where the best waves are, which wave of the sets the best wave. They've got the understanding and the timing to actually catch those waves.
So it comes through experience by self -evaluation of what you do, or it could come through someone like myself who trains people in that area.
Michael Frampton
What's the biggest mistake you see for the intermediate self -taught surfer in this regards?
Martin Dunn
Well they don't spend enough time on the beach before paddling out. In a metropolitan area or in a crowded situation, what a lot of people do is they get to the beach and they check the Sur out. And they say, yeah, there's waves today.
And then they wax up and they paddle out. And so they haven't spent enough time to actually see where the waves are and the rhythm of the ocean. And often I've thought that people make a decision. They make a decision, which is, okay, I'm gonna go and Sur on that bank because that's where the most people are. Therefore that must be where the waves are. Or they make a decision and they go to somewhere where there's no one sitting, where they might be able to get a wave to themselves.
So it's about where the crowd is or where the crowd isn't. And then that's just a basic either or. Whereas if you just spent five minutes on the beach, just waiting for a couple of sets to break, the intermediate surfer would actually have much better awareness about where they should paddle and what type of wave they should be trying to catch when they paddle out there. Because usually on any given day, if there's a set of waves coming through, there'll be two or three waves in a set. Usually there's a rhythm or a pattern as far as it might be the first, second, or third wave of the set is usually a better one.
So if you understand that pattern, you can actually paddle over that first wave knowing that the second one's better anyway. And then you're more likely to catch a better wave because of that, if you like, that informal study you've done before you paddle out off the beach.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I quite often would just watch. I'm doing a little warmup on the beach and just watching.
So let's talk about the way you approach the wave as well. Like where you take off and the first thing you do when you pop up as well. Could you go into a bit more detail about that?
Martin Dunn
Yeah, sure. You know, like what happens is that when a wave comes in, you can take off in a number of different locations on a peak.
You know, you can take off on the shoulder, you can take off on the peak, you can take off behind the peak, you can take off too deep, you can take off on closeouts, and you can take off too late. You know, when you take off and the lip's breaking over your head as you're taking off. And each of those take off positions or decisions that a surfer makes has an implication on the quality of the surfing that gets done.
So for instance, if you take off on the shoulder of the wave, your first maneuver on that wave will be generally flat and of low speed, you know, because you're more on the face when you first take off. Whereas if you take off behind the peak, you're taking off behind the peak and you are basically coming from behind the section and when you come and do your bottom turn around the section, your face would usually a lip or a steeper pocket section, so you do a better quality turn.
So if you're a surfer and you are taking off on the shoulder, that limits your ability to perform a quality turn because of that. So you can train people to actually become more aware about their peak positioning, their decision making on the peak, and once they're aware of it, and once they're aware of their individual idiosyncrasy in that area, if they're taking off too wide or some people on the other hand are real chargers and they often take off way too deep and they'll make one in eight waves sort of thing, because they really wanna charge and challenge themselves just on the take off. Those guys, well that's okay, but if they wanna be successful in surfing, like a competitive surfer, that's a major mistake because they're not allowing themselves to show the judges what they can do if they're a competitive surfer.
So just on that, the decision making on the peak is a really big area for some people. When someone takes off, they can take off and they can take off and go straight to the bottom and do a bottom turn, or they can take off and generate speed and go horizontally across the wave. And depending on the nature of a surfer, some people have a rhythm that they always take off horizontally or they always drop to the bottom and do a bottom turn. And they haven't got the ability to vary that decision on take off because they get into a rhythm, it's like it's their rhythm that they like to do.
So a lot of times, you're working with people, you're looking for those rhythms and if their rhythm is out of sync for what the wave's doing, well then, just at the start of the wave, well then you can discuss that with a surfer and give them other options. Make them aware of what they're currently doing and with that awareness comes the first step in any correction that may need to be done.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so you should be able to do both. So you should be able to drop in straight into a bottom turn, but you should be able to pop up quick and get some horizontal speed, depending on the situation.
Martin Dunn
Yeah, that's correct. Well, you should be able to do both, but there's just in that one decision making area, lots of people make the wrong decision.
And then sometimes that becomes a consistent error in their performance. Again, it's not that you wanna find fault with them, but what you wanna do is you wanna find, make them aware of the implications of their decision and sometimes what they do is absolutely correct and on other days, it's absolutely incorrect.
So it's that versatility, depending on what they've been faced with, which is the key to good performances.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, can we talk more about the bottom turn? The bottom turn is something I've been focusing on a lot more lately and I find when you focus and you get a really good bottom turn, it makes the top turn so much better and yet I've spent a whole Sur only focusing on the bottom turn.
Martin Dunn
Well, of course, the bottom turn is the power maneuver of surfing, you know? And unfortunately, what's happening with a lot of people these days is that they're dismissing the bottom turn as a maneuver, just another maneuver rather than the maneuver of surfing and that's come about by the overemphasis in the media of racing down the line and throwing in the air. And so we're getting a whole generation now of surfers who can't do a good bottom turn because they've never had to because they're more focused on the progressive surfing further down the line, you know? It's really important that, you know, in my view, the most important maneuver you've got in surfing is the bottom turn. If you can do the bottom turn effectively both forehand and backhand, you're never gonna have problems off the top of the wave because that bottom turn's always gonna work for you.
Yeah, part of that is that you gotta have the right technique to do the bottom turn. Well, actually, there's two bottom turns. There's the major bottom turn and the minor bottom turn. And the major bottom turn is one where you come down and you bend your body at the knees of waist.
So you compress like you're landing a difficult landing, you know, jumping off a wall and landing, you bend your body. But what you do in a major bottom turn, in a forehand bottom turn, is that you bend and you reach with your trailing hand forward. And what that reaching of the hand does is that it actually puts more weight on your front foot.
So you get a driving through the bottom turn and you hold that position. So this is crouched reaching position with your hand, with your body. And you hold that for about half a second. Half a second is not a long time, but it's important that the holding is done because what happens is then you're using the waist power effectively at the key moment in the turn.
And then once you've held it for that period of time, well then you straighten out of the body, straighten out of the compression. And that's the thing that gives you the power off the top. If you don't bend and hold that position, what happens is you, a lot of surfers, they bend but they don't hold and they apply their power too early in the turn. And when you apply your power too early in turn, invariably what happens is you run out of speed just as you're coming off the top and you catch rails in your nose dive when you're coming back down. And often mistakes off the top, people look at it and say, okay, there's something wrong with your entry or there's something wrong with your snap off the top. But fundamentally and generally, what's happening off the top, the mistake is caused by the rushed bottom turn or off the bottom. And that's just reality. Most people have a, what I call a minor bottom turn, no problems at all, where they come down and they just bend their body a little bit and especially just getting the board on the rail to go into the next turn. If you're doing a minor top turn, that's fine, but it's not good for a major top turn that you're trying to do, like a vertical hit off the top or a big snap off the top with full rail turn, well then you need a major bottom turn to do it. On the backhand bottom turn, well it's different. Backhand bottom turn, it's this compression again, there is a holding phase, but there's a lifting of the leading arm as you come out of the turn. And the lifting of the leading arm is really important that a lot of people haven't got in their surfing right now and that's a big problem, probably right through the whole of, if you look at the surfing population, there's 100 % of people who surf, probably 60 or 70 % of surfers don't use their leading arm well on their backhand bottom turn. Okay.
Michael Frampton
So once you've held that bottom turn position on your backhand, you then wanna kinda get some lift with your front hand before you... That's.
Martin Dunn
Correct, that's correct. Yeah, you know, you wanna, it's all about unweighting the surfboard as you come up the face, it's about the arm gives you direction where you wanna go.
So where you're looking as you come out of the bottom turn, a backhand bottom turn, that's where your arm should point as you straighten out the turn. So it's a combination of the two things and it's all about unweighting the surfboard so that you, if you like, you jump out of the bottom turn and you have maximum hitting power off the top. Okay.
Michael Frampton
And you mentioned before that the surfers having problems with their top turn and the way you were describing it, it's that top turn where surfers go up and they might do a nice top turn, but there's no speed and there's no flow coming out of it. Yeah.
So you're saying that problem can actually be from the bottom turn.
Martin Dunn
Yeah, well, probably greater than 50 %%% of the time it is from the bottom turn. Okay. They either don't perform a deep enough bottom turn or a technically correct major bottom turn, or they don't perform that correctly or they have some rotational problems off the top. But normally the first place I look for when I see someone making a problem off the top is usually the preceding bottom turn. It's a bit like cause and effect. It's all interrelated and speed, power and flow in surfing is started from the bottom turn.
So if you have a good bottom turn, you then are gonna be a good surfer in my view. You've got the ability to be a good surfer. What a lot of coaching is going on right now is that there's a lot of competition coaching going on.
So strategic, tactical stuff. There's a lot of people working in the aerial game, which is fine because that's what it is. But the problem is you're gonna have surfers who are one dimensional and not well rounded if you don't fix the foundation areas of their performance, which the bottom turn is the major one.
Michael Frampton
Now you mentioned there's two different bottom turns, the major and the minor. By the way, for folks listening, there's a couple of great videos on Martin's website that really breaks them down. But is a major bottom turn something you can do on a small wave?
Martin Dunn
Sure, yep. As long as you've got enough speed, as long as you're enough speed and the section is sucky, you can't do a major bottom turn with success in fat waves. If the wave's small and fat, well then you're basically, you're gonna catch a rail by doing it.
So you need a certain amount of speed and you need a certain amount of steepness in the bottom turn. But I've seen Kelly Slater, I've seen Mick Fenning doing perfect bottom turns in less than two foot waves. And really it's all about, if you look at the best surfers in the world, you look at Julian Wilson, if you have a look at his surfing at Snapper and Bells and just his last week in Western Australia, you have a look at his bottom turn, that is about as good a bottom turn as you'll see. I know.
Michael Frampton
Well I was watching the WA, especially that heat with Julian and Parco, and just watching some of the slow -mo's of their bottom turns, and like their elbows almost in the water.
Martin Dunn
Well see, in the forehand one, you can't get over any more than that because your knees stop you from leaning over more than what they were doing. On your backhand, you can lean a bit more on your backhand because it's your backside that's stopping you leaning any further. But I think you can lean more on your backhand than you can on your forehand. The amount of lean you get on the turn is critical to how good the bottom turn is as well.
Michael Frampton
And just watching those guys do their bottom turns, they go into their bottom turn and they actually drive so much speed out of the bottom turn.
Martin Dunn
Again, you can see the important thing with that is their hand position. You'll see that their hand position is forward, on their forehand bottom turn, it's forward.
So if you think about it, if you're standing and you're standing with your feet shoulder width apart, if you reach diagonally across your body towards your front foot with your back arm, you'll see what happens is that your body will actually, the weight will actually distribute towards the front foot, which means there's a transfer of weight from your back foot to your front foot. And what they're doing is with their hand forward, what they're doing is that they're actually, their weight is being transferred from the back foot to the front foot as they're doing the turn, and it has a driving effect through the turn. If you put your hand, so this hand position's critical to a great bottom turn. If you put your hand in line with your back foot when you're doing the bottom turn, you don't get that transferred to your front foot. Therefore, you'd still do a good bottom turn, but you don't get the driving ones like the great surfers do.
Some people put their hand behind their front foot. Well, then that actually works against, you get more of a stalling effect in the bottom turn. And so this hand position, it's this compression with your body, so you compress, so you can, you put your muscles on stretch so they can fully extend and get maximum power from the body. But this hand position in this forward position is critical to how good the bottom turn is. And you can learn that as a, like you can learn that as a little 10 -year -old grummy, boy or girl. And as I was working with a 10 -year -old boy yesterday, he puts his hand down, but he puts it down, touches and immediately brings his hand up behind his back when he does his bottom turn. And so he rushes out of turn, so he doesn't get into this forward position. I've given him training now, where I'm asking him to put his hand in a certain position, which is this forward position. And out of that, he will develop, over the next couple of years, a great bottom turn, which then will develop a great top turn.
So what I'm saying is, a real little change in performance of a surfer, in some instances, can have a profound effect on how good that surfer becomes. And often it's things like the hand position's wrong or the arm position's wrong. It's often things like, okay, well, they're not lifting their arm up high enough to, you know, so fundamentally, some people might have a bottom turn where it's sort of 70 % okay. But if they want the best bottom turn they can do, they need to do it as perfectly as possible in a major turn situation. It might be that they don't turn their head enough in some situations.
So simply rotating the head another 40 degrees as they're doing a turn can turn an ordinary snap off the top into a great snap off the top. So, you know, but what the surfer has to do first, you have to, they have to become aware of their deficiencies first and foremost.
And then with their deficiencies becomes an awareness and then you show them how it can be done. And for most people, especially people who've got an ability to pick things up quickly, they can change, you know, they can change within a half an hour into a great turn.
Like you mentioned recently, you mentioned the start thing that I had worked with Sally Fitzgibbon as a younger surfer. With her bottom turn, I said to her, she was just about to go to the world titles about a month later. And I said to her, listen, Sally, your bottom turn is not good enough.
You know, I was during the picture for four years further down the track. I said, your bottom turn is not good enough. Your hand's in the wrong position. And I said, but I don't wanna talk about it too much now. I wanna talk about it when you come back after the world titles, because I didn't wanna upset her preparation for the world titles. This is the amateur junior stuff.
Anyway, so she said, well, how is it? And I showed her and she did some simulations on the beach. She paddled out first wave, she did it perfectly, as good as you wanna see, perfectly the first time on the first wave. And that's the type of thing that someone like a Sally Fitzgibbon can do. But see, she's an exceptional learner. She can pick things up very quickly. For a lot of people, changing technique and changing the way they do things, even small changes can take time and persistence and patience from both the surfer and the coach. But if they're aware enough about it and they've got the right drills, the right training simulations, they can get it and they can become a much better surfer, as I said, by just changing small things in their performance.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I totally agree. You know, I've had Sur coaching done and those small little changes can make huge differences.
So what about where the surfer looks? Sometimes I don't even look where I'm going to do my bottom turn. Should I be having a quick look at the bottom of the wave or should I keep my eye on where the wave's going when I do my bottom turn?
Martin Dunn
Well, I think when you basically take off, as you're paddling into the wave, you're actually looking, you're making decisions about do you drop to the bottom or do you cut across horizontally? At that time, you make the decision. And if you go down, fundamentally it becomes a feel thing when you're doing your bottom turn. It's not something that, you know, necessarily you need to look. Unless you're doing a turn like you're fading back to deepen the turn and set up a tighter turn off the top. But generally, as you're doing your bottom turn, you're looking where you want to go. And that's the thing about looking. What looking does is it tells your body and your board where you want it to go. And there's a lot of mistakes people make because what they do is they look down the line when they should be turning the head.
Like if they're doing a snap, for instance, or a carve, they do the carve by looking down the line. And what that does, that crops the turn and they get like a flicking of the turn rather than a rail turn. With the bottom turn, you don't necessarily need to look. You do need to look where you're going, but generally the bottom turn is done through a feel of your experience.
So if you just know when and how the bottom turn should be done. But definitely when you're doing your top turn, when you're doing your cutbacks, when you're doing any maneuver where there's a turning, an arc type of turn, you really do need to look, turn your head and look where you wanna go to tell your board where you want it to go. The only one I'd say you don't do that with would be like a layback, which is basically all you're doing there is stopping the board by laying back and you're just fundamentally stopping the board and then recentering as you drop back down the wave face. Otherwise, you should turn your head because one, you're telling your board where you want it to go. And two, by turning your head, it allows every other part of your body to turn.
So you turn your head and then your shoulders and upper body are able to rotate. And your hips are able to rotate.
So you get a flow through your body to your feet and therefore your board. If your head doesn't turn, it locks your body and you get a cropping to the turn.
So technically, wherever you can, you always should be trying to look where you want the board to go. Okay.
Michael Frampton
So when you're paddling into the wave, a quick look down the bottom is enough and then you want the bottom turn through feel? Yeah, sure. Okay, so you wouldn't purposely try and look at the bottom of the wave as you're going down to your turn?
Martin Dunn
No, I don't think so. I think you're basically, that's done with feel. What you're doing as you're dropping down the wave face is assessing what maneuver to perform. If you're a competent surfer, you might have, depending on the section, you might have three or four different options about what maneuver to perform, depending on the shape of the wave, the steepness of the wave, the speed of the wave. All of that information's coming in your brain and you're assessing what goes down.
Well, you're assessing that through your vision. And so you've got to look and make decisions about what maneuver to perform, how hard a bottom turn you should be making. Do you do a short cop one where you're trying to go vertical or do you do a long drawn out one to make the section, to make a longer section?
So that's what you're doing as you're dropping down the wave face. And then as you're doing your bottom turn, you're looking at the lip or you're looking down the line, depending on what you've chosen to perform.
Michael Frampton
Okay, awesome. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes to those videos, the free videos you've got online that really break down the bottom turn and most surfers are visual learners.
So if you're inspired to work on your bottom turns after hearing that, then get a visual on it and then if you can, get someone to film you and send the footage in to Martin. And you do online Sur coaching, don't you, Martin?
Martin Dunn
That's right. You know, I get lots of people send me video tapes of their surfing. I evaluate their performances and I make up a training video, what I call a focus video, individualized to them. Then I send it back to them, send the link back through YouTube or some other web video sharing site and then that acts as their surrogate coach back at home at their own beach. And that's very successful actually.
So lots of people from around the world tap into that and you know, as I said, the first thing you need to know is you need to be aware about where your deficiencies are and then once you are, well then you can move forward if that's what you wanna do. If you're out there just having fun and just mucking around, well then that sort of service isn't really necessary but if you wanna be a better surfer, well then the video service I offer is as good as you'll find, I think.
Yeah, Without a doubt.
Michael Frampton
Well the better you are, the more fun it is.
Martin Dunn
Yeah, I've seen some slogans like that. The best surfer in the world is the guy having the most fun. I've always thought the better you surf, the more fun you do, that's correct.
Michael Frampton
Yeah definitely. You know, if you're not progressing, then it gets boring.
Martin Dunn
Actually, well today I just worked with a 60 year old doctor. He's of the opinion that you've always gotta be learning new skills no matter what age and especially the older you get and he's decided to work on his surfing to improve his surfing.
So that's really interesting. A lot of what I've done over the years too is that I work with a lot of sons or daughters of established surfers and obviously these guys are actually saying to their kids the same as I say to them that the kids won't listen to their fathers.
So I get to work with those sort of surfers. But it's interesting that a lot of the stuff I talk to about the kids and I show them on video, the fathers go out surfing and they say to me you know, yeah, you know, I try to turn my head or I try to lift my arms and that really works, you know. And so it's been really a pleasure and a surprising benefit that you work with a person but other people benefit at the same time. And again, that's the reason why I produce those free videos. I did a video, an internet site called surfcoach .com before which had like over 100 videos on it and the whole point of that is to coach people and to say to people that hey, you know, there is a good way of surfing. There is a proper way of surfing. And we're not necessarily talking about creating clones. What we're talking about here is creating good mechanics.
You know, we're talking about creating good technique. And the reality is that everyone's a different shape, everyone's got different motor, neuron and speed going from the body to the brain. And so what happens is when you teach someone to do a technique, that person still has got their style, their individual style, who they are as a surfer. And so you actually enhance who they are as a surfer because of that improvement in their technique which improves their style as well and improves their success on a daily basis. And that just makes fun, more fun and more confidence in their own ability in any and all types of Sur.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, definitely. The fundamentals, you can never spend too much time on the fundamentals.
Martin Dunn
Well, that's right too. And you know, and then when the fundamentals are done, well, then you can move into the decision -making area in a more effective way, like how you put your maneuvers together. It's how you perform your maneuvers so there's no hesitations.
You know, it's how you do your maneuvers so that you're throwing more fins and stuff. And then you can work and then you can work in the aerial game and the progressive stuff.
So there's all these different levels you can work with someone as you work with them and you work with them over a period of time. It's not just, it's just not, let's fix up the bottom turn and let's fix up your finish. Okay, well, if you like doing that and you enjoy working on your surfing, there's so many more layers that you can add to your performance if you're open to suggestion and you're really keen to be a better surfer.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. What's the biggest mistake you see with tube riding?
Martin Dunn
Well, tube riding, well, there's a couple of things there. There's a lot of people who over -attack.
So there's a lot of people who just go for it, whether they can make it or they can't make it. I remember a quote from Kelly Slater who said, I'll only take off on a wave if I'm 90 % sure I can make the wave. Right, so he's given a little bit of doubt to himself that he's not gonna make the wave, but he still believes that he can make the wave when he takes off, all right? Whereas there's a lot of people who just take off because they're just gonna take off.
You know, they're gonna go for it. So they haven't actually been calculating about where they take off, whether this wave is a good enough wave.
You know, like some people take off because it's a bigger wave. You know, a big wave isn't necessarily a good wave.
So their wave selection can be a problem for a lot of people and how much they charge, you know, like they attack the wave by their depth of takeoff. As far as what they do in the tube, you know, stance is obviously important.
Some people just don't have a good, solid tube stance. Some people, obviously, backhand tube riding, a lot of people find that a lot more difficult because they can't rotate and get into a, you know, a pig dog stance or some sort of stance, you know.
So they find it a lot more difficult in that regard. So you can simulate that on land before you paddle out. If it's a hollow day, you can play around on the beach and simulate the tube stance both forehand and backhand.
And then when you get out there, obviously then you try and enact what you tried to do from the beach. But I suppose the most common thing I would think would be the decision about the wave they take and the depth of they take it from.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So I've got a problem with tube riding at the moment, whereas I don't seem to be able to slow down enough.
Martin Dunn
Okay. Well, the other thing you can do is you can put your arm in the wave face. Do you do that?
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Sometimes like I've got my arm right in there and I'm trying so hard to slow down, but I just can't get, I don't consider a barrel unless the nose of the board is in the barrel. I wanna get deeper in the barrel. Just struggling, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'm struggling with the consistency.
Martin Dunn
Well, with that, there's a number of ways of stalling, but the easiest way to stall is to take off and immediately drag the arm in the wave face. But you've gotta actually drag the arm at least up to elbow. You've gotta put your arm in at least up to elbow and sometimes right up to the shoulder. Really?
Yeah, you stick your arm as far in as you can and you stick it in there until, as you're looking outside the tube, until you can see the lip coming out of your head out of the corner of your eye. Yep. Okay, once it's come out, once you can see the lip, you're not looking at the lip, you're looking straight ahead, but when you can see the curtain out of the corner of your eye, then you pull your arm out and you'll find that that's perfect timing to get out of the tube. Okay.
So, yeah, it just depends on how much is, if you're trying to stall just with your hand, you're not gonna stall, but you can stick your arm in quite a long way before you're, you know, you wanna come to a total stop sometimes. Yeah, Stick it right in and then bring it back out once you see the curtain out of the corner of your eye as you're looking forward.
Michael Frampton
Okay, yeah, I've gotta stick that arm right in there. All right, I'll try that.
Martin Dunn
Yep, Last week I was working with the best 14 year old kid from France, well, 13 year old kid from France.
Michael Frampton
Okay.
Martin Dunn
Yep. And so with him, there's a number of things we're working on, there was his, I've got a thing, like I was talking about decision making and stuff, once you get to a certain level, you've gotta try and maximize each section you enter.
So this kid's a good surfer and he's destined for the big time, I think. And so what he was doing, he'd do a maneuver, a good quality maneuver, and then the next maneuver he'd do a lesser maneuver. And it's like he's having a rest or he's having a breather. Or it could be that he's actually satisfied, so satisfied with the first maneuver that the next maneuver isn't as important to him as that first maneuver was.
So with him, one of the things is we talk about that every maneuver for this type of surfer who wants to go places, every maneuver is important. And what you're trying to do, instead of thinking of a wave as having, as being worth 10 points, you know, judged out of 10 points, you think of each section as being judged out of 10 points. And so you're always trying to perform the best quality maneuver you can in each section that you enter. That's a big step forward for a lot of good surfers if they get into that style of surfing, because what it does, it takes a good surfer, once they've worked on it, to an excellent surfer. I was working with a surfer yesterday who's one of the best, not yesterday, the day before, who's one of the best Aboriginal surfers in Australia. And he's an older guy. What we're talking about with him was the type of wave he was catching. And he's wanting to do the WQS this year. He's got to start in some of the QSs this year. And so we're talking about the type of waves that he catches. And so, you know, at his level, the type of wave he catches, you don't start out with a cutback because that's just not a dynamic enough maneuver, even though his next maneuver after the cutback was a great turn and the one after that was a great turn. But the first maneuver wasn't great because it was too flat.
So you can work with people to work on their understanding of how things should be put together so that people actually, the viewer goes, wow, that was well -written. And so there's a lot of training that you can do with people. Once they get to a certain level, you can start talking to them about how they put the performance together so that they always are showing a performance that's of the highest quality.
You know, once you get up in the CT levels and the high levels, people just instinctively do that. But as they're developing, they're the sort of things you can work on. And with the 10 -year -old boy yesterday, it was all about generating split.
Like what we do is with a 10 -year -old boy or young surfer, often you're looking at the bookends of the ride. So the bookends of the ride are what they do at the start of the wave and what they do at the end of the wave. And they're the two things that hold the whole performance up.
So this young boy, he doesn't have the skill to generate horizontal speed. So that's the first thing. He's got a standing action, which is what I call a two -stage standing action.
So he jumps to his feet, back foot, front foot, instead of both feet hitting the board together. Now, that's only a minor thing, but the problem is if you have a slow standing action, you can't do the action of generating horizontal speed well.
So you've got to fix the standing action first, then you fix the horizontal speed action. And then obviously that's the start of the ride. And if he can do that, well, that's great. And at the end of the wave, he was hitting the end section too low.
So the end section's too low, so he was making lots of errors and he was wiping out, he was nose diving when he was coming out of the final maneuver. So again, it depends on who you're working with, depends on what you talk about. And so every individual surfer, they all know that they've got something wrong in their performance. There's something they would love to fix up, but you can't, like the videos I have on my websites, they are generic in nature and they say, well, this is how you should do it, but you really do need to know exactly what you're doing as an individual surfer to say, okay, what's the next step in your development? What's the next, what's the thing that you really need to work on that can really improve your surfing? That's where either coming to a coach, going to a coach who knows what they're talking about, or sending video to someone like me who I've been doing this for 30 years.
So I've seen just about everything there is in surfing. And that's the key, and that's the message I would like to say to people is, you need to actually have someone look at your surfing to find out what your idiosyncrasies are that could be improved.
Yeah. And a lot of people, they go to a coach, like I had a guy from overseas the other day, and his father said, well, we want you to teach him how to do an aerial. This kid couldn't do a bottom turn, he couldn't generate speed, so he was surfing slow. And there's no way you can go to an aerial with that guy because he just didn't have the speed necessary to do the aerial.
So he's probably got 12 to 18 months of work on these other skills before he goes to the aerial type of performance. Other people say, no, yeah, okay, let's do the aerial. But the problem is, once they get away and they do it all by themselves, they'll never ever be able to do it because they haven't got that foundation under control. It's like having the foundations in the house. You have a foundation in the house because that foundation holds the house up. If you don't have the foundation strong in a surfer, when they go for their big manoeuvres later in their surfing, they won't have the consistency they want because the foundation just never allows them to have that consistency. It's as simple as that. And unfortunately, in surfing right now, everyone's talking about the progressive stuff that Toledo and John and all those sort of guys do. And you can think about those guys as being freaks and they are good surfers in other areas of performance, but they're not the average surfer.
So the average surfer, instead of going, listen, I wanna do airs, they should be going, listen, I wanna do the best bottom turn I can, I wanna do the best cutback I can, I wanna do the best finish I can. And once I've got all them under control, yeah, okay, what's next?
Yeah, okay, I wanna learn how to do an aerial. Then they've got the possibility of learning how to do aerials and learning how to do them very well and consistently.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, the fundamentals. The thing is, if you can make the right decision, paddle into the wave at the right time, pop up fast and generate speed straight away, it opens so many more Sur breaks up.
You know, you can go traveling and it's amazing.
Martin Dunn
It does, and you know, what you've said there, what that does fundamentally too, it increases the self -belief of the surfer. And when you've got belief in your ability, you can challenge yourself more, you can go for things and not get as frustrated.
You know, you can work through things in a methodical way and actually make things happen. And you know, so everything's interrelated and when you actually get success in surfing, you get more self -belief.
So psychologically, you become a stronger surfer. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
What's some tips for becoming faster?
Martin Dunn
You gotta be light on your feet, you know, and there's some heavy people around who may be thinking, well, I can't do that because I'm too heavy. But it's all about using your arms effectively by lifting your arms as you, I've got a video on my website, Speed Creation.
Yeah. Or on surfcoach .com, there's a video on Speed Creation. It's all about jumping to your feet, straightening your body and throwing both arms forward. And if you can do that, what happens is it unweights the surfboard and the surfboard jumps forward and accelerates faster than if you don't do that action.
So that's a skill that every surfer should learn. Every surfer in the world should learn that skill because it'll give them so many options when they're surfing.
You know, they can take off and they can generate their speed. And when you've got speed, you can do much better turns.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay.
Martin Dunn
And you know, and the other thing about speed is that you can have fun in small, grovely waves.
Michael Frampton
Which is pretty much what most of us Sur all the time anyway, so. Which is.
Martin Dunn
Pretty much, and you know what? I reckon this is why the guys from Florida and places in the Sunshine Coast who get a lot of small waves, they can generate their speed and that's why a lot of them become good surfers on the international stage because they've learned how to generate speed and they can do it anywhere in any type of condition.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's amazing watching sometimes those guys surfing tiny little waves and just doing full roundhouse cutbacks on tiny little waves and going so fast.
Martin Dunn
Yep. That's a crucial skill as well.
You know, bottom turn and speed creation, very important.
Michael Frampton
How much time goes into improving technique and body position outside of the water?
Martin Dunn
Well, I recommend doing simulations for sure. I use skateboards. I use the Streetboard skateboards which are readily available in Australia. And I use them because they feel very similar to what you do in the ocean.
So with those Streetboards, you can simulate speed creation, bottom turns, forehand and backhand, cutbacks, forehand and backhand, snaps, you can simulate coming off the top, getting good rotation off the top. You can use them when it's flat or you can use them just before you go surfing and you get a good transfer from one to the other. If you haven't got that sort of thing, well then, you know, even just looking at videos of surfers say I like that maneuver, you can actually just go down and as part of your pre Sur warmup on the beach, just do some of the simulations, the body simulations, you know, before you paddle out and that'll help you maintain your focus as well.
So it's all about getting those body movements into your body, into your brain. Those simulations have a really profound effect if you use them properly.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so I guess if you've performed a particular movement pattern or held a particular body position on dry land lots and lots of times, then when it comes to hitting that position or performing the motor control sequence on a wave, it's a lot easier if you've done it on land.
Martin Dunn
Yeah, sure. It just has a great transfer and what I do is I draw little diagrams in pencil on the nose of the board, you know, of a key body position that the surfer needs to get into and that really helps and you know, all about maintaining focus when they're in the water.
So that's an important thing too because you know, like a lot of kids, they might have, a lot of surfers might have a motivation to do a particular skill and when they get in the water, well then, you know, there's so much going on, there's so much, you know, waves coming in, their mates are talking to them, that they forget, they lose focus. The adage of training is, you know, it used to be perfect, practice makes perfect, but really it's perfect practice makes perfect.
Yeah, that's right. And so the more you focus on the skill that you're trying to achieve and stay focused on that, well the more success you will have. As I said, some people like, say Sally Fitzgibbon, they just have an innate ability to maintain focus on task and while others need lots of different ways, simulations, you know, riding on boards, coming up with key words to say as they do the action, you know, it's all to do with trying to get them to move their body in a certain way at a key moment when they're surfing.
So whatever works, you know, to get that change that I know in my coaching will help them be a better surfer. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Have you ever had a client who was, what we might call a kook, let's say an experienced but intermediate surfer who surfs well sometimes but isn't consistent. Have you ever seen that type of surfer turn into someone who just rips all the time?
Martin Dunn
Yeah, I've seen people who have had major problems in their surfing and doing things incorrectly and yes, turning them into better performers. And again, it's their desire to be better which is the key thing here because they're the ones after all have to do the work. I have worked with some surfers who have come to me and they're like what I call my God surfers which you just really don't know where to start and they're so far out of sequence and their technique is so wrong.
So I always just start with slowing things down with that type of surfers, slowing things down and just working on one aspect of their performance. It might be a bottom turn, it might be speed creation, it might be just finishing, just something simple. And the way I operate in that situation is I give them what I consider the easiest thing to change so that they can get success because if they've had little success, a little bit of success is better than no success.
So you give them something that's relatively easy to change and with time they generally can do it. So those are my guide surfers. There's not many of them but I've had a few in 30 years and they've been real challenges. But the average Joe Blow who paddles out and can do turns, you can turn them if they're motivated and they're keen to improve, you can significantly improve their performance but it takes time. I'm looking at if someone comes and sees me and I see them three or four times a year, I'm looking at probably two or three years of work with them to get to a point where I say, you're at a good point, they don't really need to come back and see me again. But my philosophy there is that I try and help people, if you like, I try and help people have a use by date with me.
So I work with them thoroughly as much as I can and after a while they'll go somewhere else or they'll be more than happy with their performance because I try and help them be self -sufficient in their performance. Especially the competitive surfer because it's important, they've got to make decisions in the water without me being there.
So I work really hard with my competitive surfers to learn how to think for themselves right from when they're preparing right through their post heat evaluation. And my job then is a second opinion rather than whereas you see a lot of other coaches, they make themselves dependent, they try and make the surfer dependent on them so that they're always part of it.
Well, that's not my philosophy, I work the other way.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, a good coach asks the right questions.
Martin Dunn
Well, yeah, I hope I do and I hope I do make the right questions. But the thing is, the right question to a surfer is, at that level is, what do you think?
And then they explain what they think and then you agree or you provide your other opinion if you've got one as well. So that's the deal.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so the desire to improve is the main factor?
Martin Dunn
Without a doubt, yeah. The surfer has to wanna improve and I don't often see people who don't wanna improve but I do, I have had kids come through, parents have sent them through and it's been more like childminding but that's not what I do.
Yeah, so the desire, because they're the ones that are gonna do the work, you know, it's not easy changing performance. It's a difficult task, you know, you've gotta maintain focus, you've gotta go out and you've gotta overcome frustrations, you're gonna make lots of mistakes but it's like any journey, you know, it's something that takes time and effort and if you want a quick fix, well then you're not gonna get it by just coming once or twice to a training program, it just doesn't happen like that.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, well you're in the wrong sport if you want a quick fix.
Martin Dunn
Well, I don't think there is a quick fix in any sport, you know? Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, well, I mean, the thing is with surfing, I mean, with tennis, you could go down to the courts with a ball machine and practice your forehand, you know, for hours on end. Yep, you could. But, you know, sadly, the wave pool technology isn't yet accessible for most surfers so we're kind of limited to that moment when we paddle into a wave, it's the only time we get to practice really, isn't it?
So it's unique in that respect.
Martin Dunn
Yeah, it is. But, you know, obviously those sort of things are coming and they will be coming and it'll be interesting when that technology comes more mainstream.
You know, you will be able to use that tool for training in a very effective way. You know, the same wave coming through, you can do the same turn, you can practice that same turn, you know, 50 times type of thing, you know, in a short period of time.
Well, that's a great way of learning. The thing about open ocean surfing is the variability of it and I think that's what keeps us coming back.
You know, one day it's one wave, the next day it's one foot, next day it's six foot, you know, next day it's three foot and on shore. It's that being able to Sur well in all conditions that really gets a lot of people fired up, you know what I mean?
Yeah. Well, that's what I found anyway, you know.
Well, people don't like surfing crappy waves, bad waves, but, you know, even if they get one wave and they do one good turn, it makes their day, you know, and that's a really unique thing about surfing. It doesn't take much to make your day when you do something well.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I used to be like that. I used to not bother going out when the waves were that great, but recently I've started just going out. If I have a window to go surfing, I just go out and, you know, I love the challenge of, you're trying to paddle into it, a six foot choppy onshore fast wave.
I mean, that's an amazing challenge and you catch a couple of those waves and then next time it's, you know, four foot and glassy, it feels so much easier to Sur.
Martin Dunn
It's interesting, there was a guy years ago, a guy by the name of Marks Brabant, he was like the Matt Banting of his time, comes from the same town actually, Port Macquarie, and his father used to take him to the worst beach in Port Macquarie a week before a major contest and at that beach there was always just bad waves. So he had to Sur the bad waves for a week and then the psychology was obviously when he got to the event, if the waves were bad, no big deal and he would just paddle out and it's just what I've been doing. If there was good waves, he was stoked and he'd be ripping because he's excited about surfing good waves, you know?
So, you know, there's people who use, have used and more than likely still do, use bad waves as a motivation, as a training ground for specific reasons in their surfing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so I'm just looking on your website, obviously you work with surfers of all levels but you do some consultancy work with other surf coaches.
Martin Dunn
Yeah, I've been, I've mentored, you know, well, when I was with Surfing Australia, I was the head coach of Surfing Australia and I was head coach of the HPC for three years and what I used to do there, I used to do a monthly newsletter or a monthly video. I sent to all the main coaches in every state around the country and I'd do state visits as part of my role in that position and the whole idea there was to educate the other coaches and discuss coaching issues and show people different ways of, you know, what do you do, what type of training you do, what does a coach do when the surf's one foot and you've got five kids who don't like surfing one foot waves, you know, like, just discussing sort of things like that, you know.
So well, there's lots of things.
Michael Frampton
What do you do in that situation? It's a great.
Martin Dunn
You can work on their speed creation, you can work on their wave selection, even in one foot waves, there's better waves than not. You can work on trying to do a fuller turn in small waves, which again has a speed component to it. You can work on going down the line and trying to bust the fins out, you know, it's up to the imagination of the coach.
Yeah. It just depends. I went to Peru two years ago, after I left Surfing Australia, Peru hired me for their national coach for a year.
So I went to Peru and part of that contract was to upskill their coaches over there as well. So, you know, I do a lot of mentoring in a lot of different ways. It's through my videos, through my courses, like I've got courses on my website now, online courses people could sign and subscribe to.
So I'm just trying to do that and I'm trying to do more of that where I pass on my stuff that I know works when you work with surfers. And it's not only what works with surfers, it's how you present it to surfers.
You know, so, you know, words are powerful, as you know, Michael, and how you say something in one situation is perfectly correct and how you say something in another situation that surfers don't want to hear. You know, so it's that conversation you have, you need to actually work with people how to do a better job in that regard. And I know that because I've probably made every mistake there is to making in that area over my time, but I'm more careful and more aware now of that conversation and how you have that conversation with surfers. And really what you're talking about there is, what I'm talking about there is how you get the message across so it has the most weight to the surfer, has the most effect on the surfer so that they get, they feel positive about themselves, but they know what to do to become a better surfer.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, awesome, okay. Well, we're running out of time, Martin, but just, you've got so much stuff on your website. You've got 15 instructional products like Secrets of Power Surfing, Beginner Stuff, this 12 Secrets to Surfing Success eBook is just freely available online. I just urge everyone out there to go and have a look at Martin's website, martindone .com .au and just check it out. If someone wanted to do a one -on -one private with you, what area of Australia do you live in?
Martin Dunn
I live up on the Tweed Coast, up near the Gold Coast, but I've traveled depending on the needs of someone. I generally, I'm doing it up there mainly, or I do it down in the Mid --North Coast around the old bar area, which is near Foster. I've got a space, a place there I can work out to, but, you know, it's, yeah, I'm happy to work with whoever wants to be a better surfer, so they can contact me through my website.
Michael Frampton
Excellent. Now, what's currently your favorite surfboard?
Martin Dunn
I ride D 'Alberg surfboards, Rod D 'Alberg surfboards. I'm riding a 6 '8", around the pin. I've got a Murray Burton quad set up, like a more of a fishy type of thing, so, yeah, you'll see I'm a 57 -year -old man which has passed my best days of surfing, but I still enjoy surfing. Yep.
So I have a couple of different boards. I've always been a short boarder, rather than having it on the mouths, I've never been a mouth rider, and I just like being able to do a turn where you can get the board on the rail, you know, so combinations of maneuvers, so that's why I prefer going, staying with the shorter boards.
Michael Frampton
What about your favorite surfer?
Martin Dunn
Well, Kelly Slater's been inspiration to me. I really like his, well, his whole game, whole package of skills. He's been a phenomenon. I like the way Mick's transformed into who he became, Mick Fenning.
You know, he showed the model where people who've got talent, who probably weren't as focused as they should have been, turned into someone of greatness in our sport. So that's been really interesting.
So those two guys are probably the best two, I think, in men's surfing. In women's surfing, I think Steph's been the benchmark, but I think there's other girls coming through now who are probably, you know, she's gonna find it hard to win again, I think. But anyway, that's just the way the world works, you know?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay, and what about your favorite goofy footer?
Martin Dunn
Goofy footer? Well, a guy I used to coach, actually, Sean Canstall.
Yeah. Sean Canstall, I used to do a lot of work with Sean when he was younger, when he was a younger guy. And a lot of people misunderstand Sean. I think he's a great guy. He's a artistic, he's got an artistic mind, which is different to a lot of other people's, but his surfing is just outstanding.
So I've always liked his, and I really like Bucko, Adrian Bucken. Yeah. Mainly because of Bucko's professionalism and the like. But again, you know, there's always new kids on the block coming through. They're just a couple of people I know pretty well, so I like them.
Michael Frampton
Awesome, well, Martin, thanks so much for doing this interview. I'm gonna put links to all the stuff we talked about in the show notes for those that are listening. And again, thank you so much, Martin.
Martin Dunn
Okay, no worries, Michael.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Sur Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Sur Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating, that'd be awesome. Until next time, keep surfing.
008: PEGGY HALL - 'Yoga for Surfers' founder details what Yoga can do for your surfing.
May 09, 2016
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Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: The Power of Yoga for Surfing with Peggy Hall
Can yoga transform your surfing performance, prevent injuries, and help you enjoy every moment in the water—even on challenging days?
In this inspiring episode, Michael Frampton sits down with Peggy Hall, surfer, yoga instructor, and creator of the Yoga for Surfers series, to explore the profound connection between yoga and surfing. Whether you’re a seasoned surfer, just starting out, or overcoming physical challenges, Peggy shares how her tailored approach to yoga can help you surf longer, with more confidence and joy.
Learn the four essential principles—breathe, relax, focus, and enjoy—that can improve your surfing and your life.
Discover how yoga can help alleviate common surfing injuries like shoulder pain, hip tightness, and lower back issues.
Find out why even 10 minutes of yoga a day can enhance your flexibility, energy, and overall surfing performance.
Start incorporating yoga into your routine today with Peggy Hall’s Yoga for Surfers. Visityogaforsurfers.com to access free resources, videos, and tips tailored specifically for surfers.
Notable Quotes:
"Yoga is about staying calm in the center of chaos—on the mat, in the ocean, and in life."
"Surfing isn’t just about the waves; it’s about the experience, the connection, and being present in the moment."
"The pose is just a gateway—it’s about learning to relax, focus, and enjoy in the midst of challenges."
"Even Kelly Slater finds joy in sessions without waves—because just being in the water is a gift."
"Consistency beats perfection: 10 minutes of yoga a day can make a huge difference in how you surf and feel."
Peggy talks about how Yoga can increase your surfing performance, help avoid common surfing injuries, and much more.
Peggy Hall introduced herself as a health coach, wellness coach, entrepreneur, surfer, yoga instructor, and creator of the 'Surfing for Yogis' DVD with pro surfers Tom Carroll, Taylor Knox, and Garrett McNamara.
Peggy explained how practicing yoga helped heal her shoulder tendinitis and improve her surfing, leading her to create a surf-specific style of yoga.
Peggy's surf-specific yoga focuses on opening up the shoulders, back, and hips, and strengthening the neck and knees, which are key areas used in surfing.
Peggy discussed the importance of breathing, relaxation, focus, and enjoyment in both yoga and surfing, and shared techniques like 'breath of fire' to stay calm in heavy surf situations.
Peggy recommended doing 10-15 minutes of yoga daily, mixing up different poses and styles to avoid repetitive injuries and see benefits like improved sleep, energy, and mental attitude.
Peggy emphasized the importance of nutrition and bringing yoga principles into everyday life, such as eating foods that provide energy for surfing and maintaining a positive outlook.
Peggy shared her favorite surfboard (a Dahlberg and now an Almeric template), surfing film (The Occumentary and Loose Change), and surfer (Taylor Knox and her husband David).
Peggy recommended revisiting yoga with an open mind, trying different classes and teachers, and listening to one's body to find a suitable style.
Outline
Introduction of Peggy Hall
Peggy Hall is introduced as a health coach, wellness coach, entrepreneur, surfer, and yoga instructor.
They are the creator of the 'Surfing for Yogas' DVD, which features professional surfers Tom Carroll, Taylor Knox, and Garrett McNamara.
Yoga is described as a vast and diverse practice, similar to how surfing encompasses various styles like shortboarding and longboarding.
Their approach to yoga focuses on feel-good movement, breath awareness, and practical benefits for surfers.
Emphasis is placed on yoga being a toolkit for improving overall well-being and surfing performance rather than a religion.
Peggy's Background and Introduction to Yoga
Peggy shares their background as a competitive swimmer who developed severe shoulder tendinitis.
This condition initially hindered their surfing experience as an adult.
Their boyfriend (now husband) introduced them to yoga, which they were initially skeptical about due to a previous negative experience.
Finding the right class that focused on practical stretching and breathing techniques led to significant improvements in their surfing performance and overall well-being within weeks.
The yoga practice helped heal their shoulder issues, allowing them to cancel a scheduled surgery and continue surfing.
Creation of Surf-Specific Yoga Program
Recognizing the lack of surf-specific yoga resources, Peggy decided to become a certified yoga instructor and create a program tailored for surfers.
Their goal was to help surfers alleviate pain, increase energy, and build confidence in the water.
Initial skepticism from the surfing community did not deter them from promoting the benefits of yoga for surfers.
Over time, the concept gained popularity, leading to the commonality of surfing and yoga retreats worldwide.
Peggy takes pride in being a pioneer in combining yoga and surfing in a popular, accessible format.
Benefits of Yoga for Surfers
Yoga helps combat overuse injuries common in surfing, such as shoulder, lower back, and knee issues.
It improves flexibility, balance, and body control, which are crucial for surfing performance.
Enhancing mental focus and breathing techniques allows surfers to stay calm in challenging situations.
Yoga for surfers is designed to build and replenish energy rather than deplete it, making it different from traditional hot yoga styles.
Approach to Yoga for Surfers
Opening up shoulders, back, and hips is a key component.
Strengthening and healing neck and knees is emphasized.
Developing power, balance, and mental focus is integral to the practice.
Incorporating breathing exercises is essential.
Visualizing surfing scenarios during practice aids in preparation.
Cultivating patience, trust, and enjoyment in surfing is encouraged.
Programs range from beginner to advanced levels, each focusing on different aspects of surfing-related fitness and mental preparation.
Mantra for Surfing and Life
Breathe: Practice deep abdominal breathing to calm the nervous system and provide energy.
Relax: Maintain good posture and release tension in the body.
Focus: Stay present and avoid distractions, especially in challenging surf conditions.
Enjoy: Remember the overall experience of surfing, not just wave count.
Personal anecdotes illustrate the importance of each element and how they contribute to a better surfing experience.
Breathing Techniques for Stress Management
A specific breathing technique called 'Breath of Fire' involves short, sharp exhales through the nose, helping to balance excess adrenaline.
Counting breaths and using different inhale-exhale ratios promote calmness and energy as needed.
Addressing Skepticism About Yoga
Many people, especially surfers, may be skeptical about yoga.
Trying different styles and instructors to find a suitable practice is advised.
Listening to one's body and modifying poses as needed is important.
Professional surfers demonstrating poses show that even experienced athletes may struggle with certain aspects of yoga.
Recommendations for Yoga Practice
Consistent, short yoga sessions (10-15 minutes) are recommended rather than long, infrequent practices.
Varying poses and focusing on different aspects (stretching, balance, strength, breathing) prevent repetitive stress injuries.
Integrating yoga with surfing sessions includes avoiding intense yoga immediately before surfing and recommending post-surf stretching for recovery.
Importance of Nutrition and Positive Outlook
Nutrition supports surfing performance and overall well-being.
Awareness of how different foods affect energy levels and mood is encouraged.
Maintaining a positive outlook and bringing yoga principles into everyday life enhances surfing experiences.
Personal Preferences and Inspirations
Their favorite surfboard is a Dahlberg, and they are now using an Almeric template.
They enjoy surfing films including 'Occumentary' and 'Loose Change.'
They admire Taylor Knox for power surfing and find personal inspiration in their husband David.
They enjoy listening to the soundtrack from 'Blue Crush' before surfing sessions.
Transcription
I noticed that my surfing got so much better. I remember Kelly Slater telling me.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Sur better.
Focus on your relationship with the ocean. Focus on your breath.
Michael Frampton
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I'm here with Peggy Hall. Peggy is a health coach, a wellness coach, an entrepreneur, but more importantly, she's a surfer and a yoga instructor and the creator of a Surfing for Yogas DVD. Now, this was done with Tom Carroll, Taylor Knox, and Garrett McNamara, am I correct?
Peggy Hall
Yes, absolutely. It was really a lot of fun to bring all of the benefits of yoga to the surfing world.
Michael Frampton
So can you tell me in your own words, what is yoga and how would practicing yoga help me to surf better?
Peggy Hall
Well, yoga is as vast and kind of undefinable if somebody asks you what is music. There's so many kinds of music. There's different styles, different preferences.
So the world of yoga is vast. Even like surfing, you've got shortboarding, longboarding, you've got toe -in surfing, you've got people on soft boards and the whole gamut.
So the kind of yoga that I practice and that I teach is a feel -good style of movement and breath and awareness. And so at its most simplest, yoga, it's not a religion. It is more of a toolkit for feeling better, living better, and of course, surfing better. And a lot of people like myself may have tried a yoga class here or there and been disappointed. My very first class I went to many years ago just was not a good fit for me. And I ended up leaving after the first class. It was more of an esoteric sort of chanting and we didn't do a lot of stretching. And I was really there for stress relief and to get rid of back pain and so forth.
So what happened is, I'll just launch right into my little backstory here. I grew up as a competitive swimmer.
So I spent a lot of time in the water and in the ocean and I developed severe shoulder tendinitis, which probably some of our listeners know exactly what I'm talking about. You can't raise your arm, it hurts to reach overhead, you've lost strength, it's extremely painful. And as an adult, I started to learn how to Sur and my shoulder tendinitis was causing me more problems.
So I was dating, who now is my husband, my boyfriend at the time, David, was a surfer. And he said, you know, let me, you should come to yoga with me and you'll get some good stretches and it will make you feel better, I promise. And I'm like no, I went to yoga, I didn't care for it. It's just, I'm not really into all that yoga stuff. And he said, no, really, trust me, just come to this class, you'll really like it.
So we went to the class, of course I was dating him, so I was happy to go and show my good spirits and all. And it turns out the class was just what I needed. It was pretty practical oriented. In other words, it was not, there was no chanting or crazy poses or any type of intimidating atmosphere. It was very welcoming and I learned how to stretch and I learned how to breathe. And most of all, Mike, I learned how to relax and I slept really well. And I started going to class a couple times a week.
And then over a period of a few weeks, I noticed that my surfing got so much better. And like the only thing I had done differently was yoga. I hadn't done any Sur coaching or strength development or whatever. And I could not believe how much better I felt. In fact, I had been scheduled to get my shoulder operated on. I got two opinions and both surgeons said, we need to get in and clean out the inflammation and get back your mobility. But after a couple of months of yoga, I canceled my surgery, I never had the surgery. My shoulders have never felt better. And I was about to, I was gonna have to give up on surfing. It irritated my shoulders so much and I was not having fun in the water. I was frustrated, I was angry. I was only like in my 30s and I thought, my gosh, my surfing career is over before it even got started. And the only thing that healed my shoulders completely was yoga.
So I, being a surfer, thought, let me look around and find something that's specifically geared towards surfers. There must be something. I saw that there was a, keep in mind, this is like 20 years ago or maybe 15 years ago. And I found there was nothing for surfers. There was yoga for horseback riders, there was yoga for seniors and there was yoga for pregnancy, but nothing for surfers. And I said, you know what? I am gonna become certified as a yoga instructor and I am going to share my love of yoga with other surfers to get rid of back pain, to have more energy, to get rid of the aches and pains, and most of all, to have more confidence in the water. We're out, surfing can be a life -threatening sport. It's not like we're playing golf. And you can get in some heavy situations like I was in Hawaii and in Tahiti and even in Australia. It was like, there's some pretty heavy Sur and you've got your heart in your throat. You've gotta be able to breathe and relax and focus on what you're doing and stay calm. As Tom Carroll told me when we were filming one of the videos, he said, yoga is about staying calm in the center of chaos. And I just love how he put that. And so it was my goal and my dream to bring this tool of health and longevity and wellbeing to the world of surfing. And so I really was the pioneer of putting yoga and surfing together in a popular method because when I would first tell people about it, especially surfers, they would laugh and say, what is this yoga?
You know, you have to be vegetarian or Indian or something. I said, no, it's a system of exercise that gives you more strength and flexibility and balance and concentration. And I sort of, I kind of fought my way up the ranks with, you know, the Sur shops didn't wanna carry the videos. And I got, you know, people sort of raised their eyebrows, like, what is this crazy stuff you're showing us?
And then as the years went by, it became more popular. And now you can't, you know, you can't throw a ball without hitting a yoga camp, yoga for surfing camp, surfing and yoga is just exploded around the world. And I was so glad to be the inspiration for that.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, awesome. So what did you do to yoga that made it more Sur specific?
Peggy Hall
Well, being a surfer myself, I realized that we need to not only stretch, but we need to stabilize and strengthen the muscles that we use for surfing. So many surfing buddies have told me that they've got problems with their hips, especially, because think about it, you're sitting on a surfboard, you know, in between sets, and your hips start to lock up. The hips pull on your low back, that leads to low back pain. A lot of surfers, I call it slunching, they slunch over their surfboard, they hunch and they slouch their shoulders, and that gives them back pain, collapses the chest, they can't breathe adequately. Paddling, there's a lot of issues with the shoulders. A lot of surfers get cramps in their lower legs, their feet. A lot of surfers blow out their knees from the repetitive movement of surfing. Now, traditional yoga, the way it came to the United States anyway, from India, was a style of hot yoga that was very vigorous, and you performed it in a room that was artificially heated to dissipate a lot of excess energy. Because interestingly, yoga kind of started out, it was popularized for teenage boys who had a lot of excess energy, and so they thought we'll deplete all their energy, they'll be able to be calm and relaxed, they'll do better in their studies.
Well, in yoga, for surfers, we don't want to deplete energy. We want to build energy, we want to replenish energy so that we can go out and Sur our best.
So what I created was a feel -good style of yoga that is focused on opening up the shoulders, the back, the hips, and then strengthening and healing your neck and your knees, because those are all the main areas of the body that we use while surfing. So I have a whole series of programs that go from more of an introduction kind of entry to yoga for people who've never done it before, and then it goes all the way through to the more advanced stuff, which focuses more on power and balance and a lot of mental focus, breathing exercises. Now, you can find a lot of those exercises in other kinds of yoga, for sure. But what I did is I brought in, and I tied in the surfing yoga element.
So when you're doing a pose, I explain specifically how it helps you in your surfing. I help you visualize yourself in the water, on the board, sitting tall, breathing deeply, excited and confident about enjoying yourself in the water. You learn that sometimes the wipeout is the ride.
Like I was really frustrated as a new surfer. I would just get angry if I didn't have a good session. I'm female, so there were a few times I shed a few tears when I couldn't get out through the lineup in heavy Sur. And when I started practicing yoga and my style of yoga, I focused a lot, not just on the physical, but on being patient, on trusting yourself, on trusting the ocean, on enjoying this amazing power of creation. Surfers, we're a very unique breed. We're out there not for exercise. At least, I don't think you and I are. Most surfers aren't. We're out there to experience like a different dimension of life, of being alive in the moment, of challenging ourselves, of surfing and wanting to freeze time. And for a moment we do, and then we paddle back out to try to experience it again. And there's no other exercise I've found. And I'm certified as a personal trainer. And I've done a lot of strength training and I swim. But yoga gives you an opportunity to kind of freeze time and to challenge yourself beyond your comfort zone. And the side benefit is you're strengthening and developing all those same muscles that we use in surfing.
So to summarize, yoga for surfers is unique in that it specifically ties yoga and surfing together. And being that I have suffered injuries and that I am a surfer and I am a certified yoga instructor, I've brought together over my years of experience a very unique and enjoyable blend and kind of a choreographed sequence of poses that leave you feeling exhilarated and not exhausted.
So you can do yoga, you can still get out there and Sur. And then at the end of the day, whether you were surfing or maybe just a long day at the office or something, or maybe you were traveling and spending time seated, you can stretch and refresh and get ready for a good night's sleep so that the next day you've got energy and you're ready to go.
So that's my hope. And I've made friends with thousands of surfers all around the world who have benefited from the programs and they've told me the same thing.
So I couldn't be happier to do what I love and to help people improve their health and their longevity. And the other thing, Mike, is I found that when people are doing yoga for surfers, which is a very positive, upbeat type of experience, they feel better in the water. And they're not grumbling and trying to snake somebody on a wave, but they're like, hey, mate, go ahead, it's your wave. And they hoot for each other and it makes the experience in the water so much more enjoyable. And everybody shares the stove.
Michael Frampton
So practicing yoga for surfers is gonna help combat some of the overuse injuries like surfers' shoulder and lower back and knee issues.
Peggy Hall
Absolutely.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and another thing I really like about yoga is from a physical perspective, at least, you're very much exploring your full range of motion and your capability to balance and control your own body and getting into some awkward positions, which essentially is what surfing is.
Peggy Hall
Yeah, it really is. You think about it, you get a nice long ride and you're feeling it in your quads, your knees have been bent. Hopefully you've got a nice strong stance. It really takes it out of you. And surfers around my area, my break and so forth, a lot of them, they're in their 40s and older. My local break is trestles. Most people know it as lowers, lower trestles. It's where the pros Sur. And there's a break just a little bit south of that called middles, and that's where I Sur. And so most of the people in their 40s and 50s and beyond, it's a really great break. It's pretty high performance, but a lot of these guys now are going from shortboard to longboard because they just don't have the power. They don't have the flexibility in their hips to get a quick pop -up.
So their boards are getting bigger and heavier. And the friends and so forth, I have, they kind of complain about it.
Like they want to have the high performance shortboard. They want to feel more powerful and they want to Sur the more high performance breaks. And I'm telling you, yoga is all those things you said. It gives you the full range of motion. And the other thing, Mike, that I like about yoga, and surfers by and large have a competitive streak in them, I'd say, or a, you know, there's that little bit of the aggro because you got to get in the wave and you got to paddle hard and you got to get back out before the next guy does.
So sometimes we bring that mindset to our exercise. And I can speak personally, and I know a lot of people who have overdone it in their strength training and they've blown out their shoulder, not from surfing, but from lifting too heavy of a weight, from doing a workout that wasn't suitable. We've got something out here called CrossFit, which is a real controversial because either people just push themselves. Whereas my style of teaching is, it sounds like a cliche, but it's true. Listen to your body, work in a way that feels good, modify, adapt and adjust the exercises so that they serve you.
So you take that awareness in yoga that you learn like man, that hurts my shoulder a little bit. I'm going to lower the arm or I'm going to do fewer repetitions or something. And you take that into your everyday life and you're more aware of yourself and how you're moving and what you're eating and if you need more sleep or more positive activities or influence in your life.
So it's the physical body and it's so much more.
Michael Frampton
You mentioned something before, it was breathe, relax, focus. Is that what you said?
Peggy Hall
Yeah, and there's one more part to it. So my mantra is breathe, relax, focus and enjoy. And I had an experience in Hawaii when we were filming one of the DVDs out there. I forgot the focus aspect and I was having a great session and I'm paddling, you know, the waves in Hawaii are pretty powerful. And you know when you have those days where you're feeling really good on top of the world and you're catching every wave you paddle for and you've got the energy and you're just on, you're in the flow, you're in that flow state as they call it.
Well, I was having one of those days and I was getting a little cocky, I was getting a little overconfident and I paddled late and I got distracted and I didn't focus on riding the wave. I was almost kind of focused on the next wave if you can believe it. And I had a pretty powerful wipe out where I hit the reef and it shook me up and I didn't catch another wave that session. I paddled back out but then I just couldn't do it. And I realized I had forgotten to focus.
And then a few days later I got my confidence back up, I paddled back out and I was so nervous that I forgot to enjoy myself. So in my mind, these elements are the bare bones of what we need in our surfing, what we need in our yoga, most of all what we need in our life.
So real, to just kind of take each one of those, the breathe, in yoga we do an abdominal breathing. So we don't do short shallow breaths out of the upper part of the lungs. It's a relaxed abdomen that inflates as you breathe in, the belly expands a little.
And then as you breathe out it's like emptying out the air from a balloon and the belly drops in. It's nothing that's forced or strained but it's a natural deep breath. And the reason the breath is so important is not only does it bring us oxygen which we need to stay alive, but the abdominal breathing exerts stimulation on an important nerve called the vagus nerve. And that's the 10th cranial nerve. What it does is this nerve regulates our breathing, our heart rate, our blood pressure, our digestion.
You know when you're nervous you get butterflies in the tummy and you get a little upset stomach or you wanna give a speech and you feel tightness in your throat. This nerve regulates everything, our breathing nerve.
So when we breathe deeply, we calm ourselves naturally. And when we calm ourselves, the body can reduce anxiety. And I don't know about you but there are some days out, I'm out in the water, I'm like why did I even paddle out? These conditions are a little too heavy, you know, a hurricane coming in or something. And so the deep breathing is gonna keep you calm and it gives you energy.
So especially while you're paddling out a lot of people hold their breath. So breathe deeply while you're paddling out but don't force the breath because that can lead to too much oxygen in the blood.
So you wanna exhale a little bit longer than your inhale. And that gives you what I call calm energy.
So it's energy but it's not frantic agro energy. It's calm energy, just the amount of energy you need for that moment.
So that's the breathe and then the relax. So right now people who are listening, I invite them, you know, relax the shoulders, draw the shoulders back so you're sitting nice and straight. You're not holding tension as you sit upright but it's a relaxed manner with the shoulders rolled open, the neck long, there's no slunching as I call it, forward of the shoulders. And when you're in between sets, you wanna sit in this, in yoga it's called mountain pose. You've got shoulders back, the torso is long and this allows the lungs to work the way they're designed, which there's space and there's movement.
So that's the relax. And when we're relaxed, we actually feel better. The brain feels better, we can concentrate more, we have more energy. An easy way to relax is to just have a pleasant expression on your face. You don't have to have a fake smile or something but a pleasant expression like you just heard somebody say you heard some good news and you're having a good day and that facial, the facial muscles send feedback to the brain that tells the brain everything's a -okay.
So breathe, relax. The third point is focus, which is where I fell down that day literally in Hawaii. I was distracted by the other surfers. I was being affected by how well they were surfing, how many waves they were getting, how many waves I wasn't getting.
So focus is the antidote to distraction. And I Sur in a really crowded lineup, it's a well -known break, there's lots of people, a lot of them, they're trying to get some waves before they have to go to work or whatever. The atmosphere can get really tense.
So focus on your relationship with the ocean, focus on your breath, focus on what's going on in the moment. So if you just had a wipeout or you didn't catch the wave or you didn't Sur it as well as you thought you could, how many of us hang on to that and we let that affect us for the rest of the session?
So my recommendation is focus on the moment, focus on the beautiful environment around you, focus on the totality of the experience. Surfing is not about how many waves you catch. How many of us make it just about the waves? Surfing is about being out with your buddies, it's about being out in nature, getting fresh air and sunlight, enjoying the beautiful surroundings. What a gift to celebrate your own self.
You know, you've got health enough and wealth enough to be able to go and Sur, those are blessings. I wanna share the last point, which I think is the most important and that's enjoy. Why are we out there surfing if we're not enjoying ourselves? And there have been times when I've paddled back in because I realized I was not enjoying myself. Either I was too cold, I didn't have the right wetsuit, maybe I didn't leave myself enough time to get out, to get to my next appointment and I was trying to rush.
So enjoy. I remember Kelly Slater telling me that he had a session where he didn't catch any waves, no, zero waves. It was just the conditions or whatever or his mindset and he was about to get down on himself negative and he thought, you know what? At least I'm out in the water. And I always remember that and I thought, if Kelly Slater can enjoy himself without catching a wave, so can I. And you know, Aki was one of my Sur heroes and from your neck of the woods there and his movie, the Aki Ventry from years ago, he said he would go out and tell himself, I'm gonna catch five waves and I'm gonna Sur from the best I can and I'm gonna enjoy them and I'm gonna get out of the water. And now my husband and I have our little tagline where we say, let's get our Aki five. And if we can get our Aki five, the rest is just icing on the cake. And it allows us to enjoy ourselves without putting pressure on having to Sur perfectly.
So those are my four magic words. I hope they'll help other people. I say them to myself as I'm paddling out. I say them as I'm surfing.
Sometimes I'll add in a couple other like elements that I wanna bring in that day. Maybe I need a little more courage or maybe I need a little more joy or what have you. And it may sound simple, but our thoughts help create our reality. And the most amazing thing about our reality is we can choose our thoughts. We can't always choose our circumstances, that's for sure. We've got people in life and events that we don't have control over, but we can control what we choose to think. And I choose to focus on the positive because there is good to be found and there's a lot of goodness out there. Yoga is one tool that has helped me move in that direction.
Michael Frampton
When you're sitting out the back in let's say a semi -heavy situation and you feel yourself sort of tensing up and your focus is moving away from the present, do you have a particular breathing sequence or breathing time signature that you use to bring yourself back?
Peggy Hall
Yes, I do. And this is something called breath of fire. And it's a short, sharp breath.
You know, like if you're gonna blow out a candle and you just do a short puff like this. This breath of fire is a series of short exhales through your nose. You don't focus on inhaling. You just do a short exhale through your nose, short, sharp exhale. And what that does is it will help balance that excess adrenaline that's coming in when you've got that heavy set coming behind you. I'll do that for about 10 to 15 rounds. And I've got this, in fact, anybody who is listening, if they want to just email me at Peggy at yogaforsurfers .com, I'll give them a free link to this breathing exercise. Or maybe we can pop it up there, Mike, on your website. And I walk them through it. And the lung capacity exercises are really a game changer.
So I will do some type of breathing, even if I just count my breaths, or I'll tell myself, breathe, relax, focus, enjoy. You know, maybe inhaling for a count of four, and then exhaling for a count of six to calm the energy. The most important thing is to breathe. A lot of us hold our breath when those heavy situations appear.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay, yeah, I'll definitely put a link to that in the show notes. Great.
Yeah, that's easy. Okay. Now, a lot of people have been put off by yoga. What would you say to them?
Peggy Hall
Well, I would say I totally get it because I was put off by yoga In fact, my husband and I have some real close surfing buddies and I hope they're listening because they need to do yoga. And you are right in thinking carefully about the type of yoga that you practice. Because the last thing I want somebody to do is to listen to this podcast and then just go out and join a class that might not be suitable for them.
So how do you know what's suitable for you? Well, you wanna talk to the instructor, you wanna find out what style of yoga they teach, you wanna read the description if at all possible. And no matter what yoga class you go to, whether you do the DVDs I have, you do them in the comfort of your own home or you go to a class, you always need to let your body guide you because if something doesn't feel right, that means it's not right.
So you could ask the instructor for an option, you could try to adjust to make sure that it suits you, especially people that had surgery, maybe they had shoulder surgery or they had back surgery or they've got a torn meniscus or something. Not every yoga pose is suitable for everybody.
I mean, there are some poses that I have on the Yoga for Surfers programs that I don't even do these days because just things change. So my advice is be open. I gave the analogy that yoga is kind of like music and there's so many styles and traditions and so forth. Yoga is like food. You might have gone to a restaurant and you're like, I didn't really like that one dish they served, but you go back and you liked a different one.
So my advice is keep at it, try different classes, different teachers. You can get free stretches at yogaforsurfers .com and try out my style. I've got a bunch of you to sample for free and give it a go. You've got nothing to lose if you go at it with a healthy dose of caution. And keep in mind that one yoga class and one teacher does not define all of yoga.
So keep at it. And in your area now, I've had several people who have gone through my Yoga for Surfers teacher training so they are teaching my style of Sur -specific yoga.
So that would be another thing to go for. And see if you can benefit from that.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so do you have a list of practitioners on your website?
Peggy Hall
Yes, I can make that available to folks as well. I know we definitely have some, boy, scattered all over. We've got the Gold Coast, we've got Victoria. I'm certain they're in Sydney, Manly area, which I've been to many times, I love. And it's just exploding now, which that was my goal when I set out in 2002, believe it or not, was when our first program came out. And I just did it as a hobby to help people. And it turned into a full -time business with more and more titles coming up. And my goal was to get as many surfers doing yoga as possible. And with help from people like you, we're spreading the word. And it's better in the lineup because of it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean, yoga is awesome, I agree. But I will second your point of, yeah, you've gotta enter it with a little bit of caution. And you really have to listen to your body. Just because the instructor is holding an amazing pose with ease, doesn't mean that you have to try and emulate that. You need to go towards that and listen to your own body.
Peggy Hall
Yeah, absolutely, Mike. I've got Tom Carroll and Garrett McNamara and Taylor Knox are three of a handful of pro surfers that I have in these videos. And they wanted to work with me to bring their love of yoga to the surfing community. Because again, they were pioneers. They were doing yoga back when people thought it was really weird and it was not, the strength training was much more the focus. And frankly, a lot of surfers just didn't do anything other than surf because that's all we wanna do is surf.
So we weren't in the gym or working out, we were in the water. But the feedback I got from people who saw these videos was they liked to see that Garrett McNamara was kind of wobbling in the pose. And there's a little sequence there where Tom and I, we were doing a thing and we fall. That's part of it. That's, yoga is not about executing a perfect pose. The poses are the least important part of yoga. The poses give you an opportunity to breathe, relax, focus and enjoy in an awkward situation so that you train your brain and your nervous system to stay calm and focused.
So you don't freak out, you don't panic. And then in those heavy situations, you're able to draw upon that. It's like putting money in the bank. You're doing your yoga and you're putting money in your bank account.
And then when you're out there surfing or having difficulties in stressful situations in everyday life, you can withdraw from your bank account of yoga and that's how it works. The poses are the least important part.
So experiencing yourself in the pose is what we're after.
Michael Frampton
So the pose is a gateway or a method. Let's say you're in a pose and it's difficult, it's stressful.
Like holding that pose is challenging your strength, your balance and your range of motion. So it's a stressful situation. And there yoga is about learning to relax and focus and enjoy the moment and stay calm in that stressful situation, right?
Peggy Hall
You got it exactly. Yeah, I couldn't say it better. I love that the poses are a gateway. And what that does, Mike, is it takes the stress off thinking am I doing this right?
So there's no right or wrong in my opinion in yoga. There's no good or bad. You can't really be bad at yoga as long as you're breathing and paying attention. Now, I used to take piano lessons and my brother and sisters took karate lessons when we were kids. That, they were trying to make you do it perfectly, right?
Like you would have to do it over and over to get it right, to get it perfect. Yoga is not like that at all. You're not trying to get it perfect. You're just experiencing what's going on. And I think for me, that is where it really translated into surfing.
You know, surfing is, it's kind of a spectator sport in that you have people around you watching you know? And some breaks are really visible. They can, people on the beach can see you surfing and people in the lineup can see you surfing. And so there's a little bit of a performance anxiety, like, are they gonna think I'm a kook? Are they gonna drop in on me because I didn't catch that wave? And for me, that prevented me from surfing my best because I knew people were watching me.
So with yoga, when you learn that the pose, the perfection of the pose is not the goal, I learned to just go and Sur and have more fun and enjoy myself. And then the strange thing is that I actually surfed better but because I wasn't so worried about it. And yoga helped me make that switch in my own mind. And it's an, trust me, I work on it every day. I do yoga every, well, maybe four to five times a week. You don't have to do an hour a day. That's the other thing. I can do 10 minutes of yoga and that will set me up for the day. And I can come home at the end of the day and do 10 or 15 minutes if that's all I have time for. And I feel amazing. And in my programs, I have them divided up like that, like 15 to 20 minute sessions. And you could do them all together if you want for 45 minutes or an hour, or you could do 15 minutes this morning and then 15 minutes tomorrow and then 15 minutes in the evening because you don't wanna have an obstacle. Many people don't, especially if we've been surfing all day, we don't have time to do another workout. I don't, and I don't want to in particular.
So I find that if I can do regular yoga on a consistent basis more frequently, I feel better, I sleep better, I feel more relaxed, I have more energy, my mental attitude is more upbeat, and I see the silver lining more easily. And then that translates to my surfing.
So if I get my Aki -5 or I don't get my Aki -5, I don't let it bother me as much. And as I say, I work on this on an ongoing basis. It's not like yoga has miraculously made me, I'm not a pro surfer, I never was, I'm just a passionate surfer. And I think one thing we all have in common is we all wanna, we wanna enjoy ourselves more, we wanna Sur longer, we wanna have more time in the water without getting fatigued, we don't wanna stay out because of aches and pains, and we wanna Sur for the rest of our life. The clock is ticking. Everybody's a day older today than they were yesterday. And we wanna keep that energy and longevity and make the most of our precious time. That's the way I look at it.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so 10 to 15 minutes a day is enough to see some results?
Peggy Hall
Absolutely. The consistency is important.
And then the other thing I would say, and I'd like to know your opinion on this as a movement coach, I recommend doing different poses. So don't just do the same pose every day because you could have the repetitive injury. I know people that love yoga so much, they do it seven days a week, and then they're at the Cairo because they've got injuries from yoga.
So mix it up. And I've got several different sessions that some are more for stretching deeply, some are more for balance, some are for strength, some are for breathing, some are for more power, others are more relaxation.
So mix it up according to what you need, and you'll feel better after one session. That I guarantee if you take some time to breathe and relax and focus and enjoy, you will feel better, it's guaranteed.
Michael Frampton
Yeah yeah, definitely mix it up. You wouldn't wanna do the exact same routine every day because that's repetitive stress, isn't it?
Yeah.
Peggy Hall
It is. And no harm you wanna go every other day or something like that is fine too. You wanna consider what else you're doing if you are surfing. I've got a short warmup that, I mean it takes me like five to seven minutes, and it literally is a warmup. This is not the time to be doing heavy yoga before you paddle out.
So I disagree with, there are some surfing yoga retreats where you're doing a traditional 90 minutes of yoga and then you paddle out. I would not do that personally. I would warm up the body with some more rhythmic movement, not holding the poses static, just to get the blood pumping, to get the breath flowing, to start setting your mind toward your session at hand, get your mental focus going, your anticipation and excitement for the session ahead.
And then I would do the rigorous conditioning yoga on the days you don't Sur. Let's say the surf is flat or you're traveling or you're working. That's the day you do the more power yoga, so to speak.
And then after you surfed all day, you could do another 15, 20 minutes of some deeper stretches on the floor where you're doing the counter poses, stretching your shoulders in particularly, your back and your hips. And then you're gonna get a really good night's sleep. You're gonna release the lactic acid buildup in the body. You're gonna help the body repair. And that's the kind of thing I do.
So I mix and match quite a bit, taking into consideration, if you're doing a strength building type of resistance training or something, if you're lifting weights, for example, I'd probably do that first and then do the yoga later as a recovery. It's kind of common sense to me. And people can figure that out. I've got some guidelines on how to mix and match yoga into your other fitness routine because it's a good component. I don't think it's the only component. I personally like to walk, I swim, of course I Sur. I do some resistance training.
And then yoga is kind of one of those factors that bring it all together. And Mike, the other thing that's important is, I'm sure you share this with your clients, is the importance of nutrition. And yoga can be kind of done in the kitchen, so to speak, in terms of, think about foods that are gonna bring you energy. And think about foods that, in my experience, when I eat something, it either gives me energy, makes me, you know, or makes me feel calm and relaxed. Or sometimes it makes me feel horrible.
Like if I overate it or it's too much sugar or caffeine or fried foods, I actually don't feel good. So yoga is the practice of awareness.
So let's bring our yoga into our nutrition and eat foods that will give us energy for surfing. And that's another important aspect when we look at the whole picture. That your food, your sleep are super important.
And then your outlook. Are you always grumbling and complaining? That's negative energy inside your body, actually. And that is a sure recipe for a bad Sur session. And I can speak from experience.
So leave that stuff behind. Bring in your yoga into your everyday life. As well as your, yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay, I see you've got some free downloads in regards to nutrition on your website. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well.
Peggy Hall
That'd be excellent.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Okay, Peggy, this has been awesome. We are running out of time, but before we go, I wanna ask you four quick questions. What's your favorite surfboard?
Peggy Hall
Well, my all -time favorite surfboard actually was by an Australian shaper. And it was a Dahlberg. And I rode that thing into the ground.
You know, it got all squishy and soggy and all of that. And that was, at the time, I think that was a, like a six five, it was what I was riding. Beautiful board. These days, I'm going a little heavier in the, well, I had to go up a little. Remember I was talking about going up in the size of the board. The board is probably still like a, maybe it's like a five 11, but I went a little heavier in volume. And it is basically a template that comes from Almeric.
So that's what I like right now. So I've always been a short boarder. I like it. I like to be loose and free. And I learned shortboarding and I hope to shortboard for as long as I can.
Michael Frampton
Cool. And what's your favorite surfing film?
Peggy Hall
Well, you know, I mentioned the Occumentary. Really has to be up there. That's one of my favorites.
And then another one that features, you know, my other Sur hero, Taylor Knox, and that is Loose Change. That is a real fun one. It's kind of campy with some funny skits and everything, but there's good surfing in it as well. And Blue Crush, the surf film is one of my favorites with Rochelle Ballard, who's in the Yoga for Surfers programs.
Michael Frampton
Okay. And your favorite surfer?
Peggy Hall
My gosh. That does kind of put me on the spot.
Well, you know, I'm gonna have to say for sheer power, cause I'm kind of from the old school, the power carve and all, I'm gonna go with Taylor Knox, but really my favorite surfer would have to be my husband, David, because he got me into surfing. And he is in his late fifties, and he is still ripping on a short board, and he is my ongoing inspiration. And it'd have to be yoga.
Michael Frampton
What's his secret for still ripping at 50? Well, Cool.
Okay. Do you have a favorite album or song that you like to listen to before you Sur?
Peggy Hall
Gosh. You know, the soundtrack from Blue Crush, there's a number of Australian artists on that, and one is more Chiba. And that's probably, we usually have that playing in the car when we're driving out to Sur.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Well, thanks so much for the interview, Peggy. I'm definitely inspired to do some more yoga. And I encourage anyone out there who hasn't tried yoga to go to Peggy's websites and check out her style of yoga. And if you have done yoga and you've been burnt in the past by an inexperienced yoga instructor, let's just revisit it. Go and check out yogaforsurferstv.com. And there's some free yoga workouts there. There's some, it's got some videos and photos of Peggy doing her style of yoga, and you can check it out. And I just encourage people to revisit it if you have been put off before, or to check it out if you haven't tried it before. And of course, if you're an experienced yogi, I think there's some stuff to learn from Peggy's Sur -specific stuff as well. Do you have anything else to add, Peggy, before we go?
Peggy Hall
Well, it is my pleasure. My passion is to help people live a healthy, vibrant life. Surfing and yoga are certainly two great ways to do so.
So I'm all on board to help promote that in any way I can.
Michael Frampton
Again, thank you so much for your time, Peggy. Awesome, thank you. Peggy Hall My pleasure!
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Sur Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Sur Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep surfing.
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