Not Even Mad

EP 30 | Charles Lehman & Brad Carson Nov 13, 2025

Brad Carson (Americans for Responsible Innovation) and Charles Lehman (Manhattan Institute / City Journal) dig into the shutdown endgame, Schumer's calculus, 2026 vibes, and why data centers might be a sleeper issue. They argue affordability vs. "afford to dream," culture vs. policy, and whether legalization waves for pot, NIL, and sports betting were built to fail. Plus: AI guardrails, why adding friction to vices works, and Goat Grinders on EST vs. EDT, reclining your plane seat, and off-leash dogs. Bonus Q&A about Brad's Senate race in the Not Even Mad feed.

Produced by Corey Wara

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EP 29 | Steve Hayes & Damon Linker Oct 28, 2025

Steve Hayes and Damon Linker debate whether Trump's demolition of the White House East Wing is another norm-busting outrage or just a gaudy renovation. They argue over visuals versus substance in anti-Trump outrage, Trump's manipulation of public opinion, and whether Congress's abdication of power is the true engine of American authoritarian drift. Then: could "Trump 2028" be both a joke and a trial balloon? And in Goat Grinders: the "harm-reduction community," the literal misuse of a certain word, and liberal tolerance of urban squalor.

Produced by Corey Wara

Production Coordinator Ashley Khan

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EP 28 | Jonah Goldberg and Zee Cohen-Sanchez Oct 16, 2025

Hamas hostages, Trump and autocracy, and the strangely quiet shutdown — we tackle all three. Why Trump's blunt style played in the Middle East, whether "competitive authoritarianism" really fits his second-term instincts and enablers, and who's taking the fall for Obamacare-premium brinkmanship. Plus: goat-grinders (pointless rebrands at Max and Apple TV, Crowder's vest-and-glass cosplay, and the humbling age math of Roy Orbison, the Skipper, and the Golden Girls).

Produced by Corey Wara

Production Coordinator Ashley Khan

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EP 27 | Ben Wizner and Ilya Shapiro Oct 02, 2025

Free speech under heat: the ACLU's Ben Wizner and the Manhattan Institute's Ilya Shapiro square off (and sometimes align) on the "ethos" of the First Amendment—from the Ball State firing over Charlie Kirk comments to cancel culture, government jawboning, and campus heckler's vetoes. We dig into the Supreme Court's shadow docket and unitary-executive fights, birthright citizenship, visas vs speech rights, and why institutions keep ducking protests. Plus: goat-grinders (the NBA's three-point bloat, Lyme disease, and one painfully predictable sitcom).

Produced by Corey Wara

Production Coordinator Ashley Khan

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EP 26 | Michael A. Cohen and Jamie Kirchick Sep 18, 2025

Michael A. Cohen and Jamie Kirchick discuss the Charlie Kirk assassination and the immediate retreat to priors — who's weaponizing grief, what counts as incitement, and whether "fascistic" vs. "authoritarian" language clarifies or inflames. Plus, the TikTok law end-run and why process crimes don't move voters the way visible force does. In Goat Grinders: antisemitic conspiracies about Kirk's murder; presidential pressure to prosecute Letitia James; and one deeply baffling Visa/Christian McCaffrey toaster ad that raises more questions than it protects appliances.

Produced by Corey Wara

Production Coordinator Ashley Khan

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EP 25 | Galen Druke and Josh Barro Sep 04, 2025

Mike Pesca welcomes Galen Druke and Josh Barro for a sharp yet civil debate on Trump's immigration strategy, crime, and the charge of creeping autocracy. They weigh whether cruelty brings Trump political advantage, how Democrats should frame their response, and what "autocracy makes you poor" really means for voters. Plus, Mike spotlights where polls mislead, why midterms punish incumbents, and why branding matters as much as policy.

Come See Mike Pesca at Open Debate

Produced by Corey Wara

Production Coordinator Ashley Khan

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EP 24 | Rikki Schlott and Isaac Saul Aug 21, 2025

New York Post columnist Rikki Schlott and Tangle founder Isaac Saul join Mike to discuss policing Washington, D.C.—who's in charge, who gets blamed, and why federal takeover is more problem multiplier than solution. Then: scalpel or a chainsaw on the syllabus for higher ed. Plus, using the concept of toxic empathy to explain both a recidivist subway-jacker and a diplomatic move toward Palestinian statehood. In Goat Grinders, air travel with babies, The Naked Gun while lying down, and airlines that lie—but only once you're already trapped in seat 27B. Produced by Corey Wara

Production Coordinator Ashley Khan

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EP 23 | Zee Cohen-Sanchez and Jesse Adams Jul 24, 2025

Unf**k America Tour founder Z Cohen-Sanchez and Washington Examiner contributor Jesse Adams join for a tour through Trump's waning immigration support, the public broadcasting defunding that will hurt the next generation of Jesse Adamses, and why even Epstein truthers may be losing the thread. They debate whether GOP border hawks want actual deportations or just spicy cable-news optics, and whether NPR got PBS defunded by sheer association. Meanwhile, the Democrats try to square "abolish ICE" with NYC's obsession with safety—somehow still winning. Plus, Goat Grinders include denied entrance at Charlie Kirk events, the tyranny of the word "unhoused," and the tragic combustion of Jeff Maurer's own anti-sawdust screed.

Produced by Corey Wara

Production Coordinator Ashley Khan

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EP 22 | Carine Hajjar and Jeffrey Maurer Jul 10, 2025

Boston Globe columnist Carine Hajjar and five-time Emmy-winning comedy writer and proprietor of the I Might Be Wrong Substack, Jeff Maurer, join to discuss the flood of ICE agents and President Trump's growing suspicion that Putin isn't on the up-and-up. And as part of the political pundit compact—a discussion of all that Zohran Mamdani might mean. Plus, in Goat Grinders: teeny-tiny air conditioning in New York, misinterpreting the cane toad, and (hardly ever) exploding sawdust.

Produced by Corey Wara

Production Coordinator Ashley Khan

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EP 21 | Allison Schraeger and Matt Yglesias Jun 12, 2025

Economist Allison Schraeger and Slow Boring's Matt Yglesias join Mike to discuss the unrest in Los Angeles — and how to protest without giving Donald Trump a win. Then, the trio surveys the NYC mayoral mess — or, if not a mess, whatever government-run grocery stores are. Plus, the Big Beautiful Bill is only one of those things, and it's the worse one. Goat Grinders: summer smells, promiscuous earbuds, and that final month of school when they stop even pretending to educate the children. Produced by Corey Wara Production Coordinator Ashley Khan Email us at ⁠⁠⁠⁠thegist@mikepesca.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ To advertise on the show, contact ⁠⁠⁠⁠ad-sales@libsyn.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ or visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://advertising.libsyn.com/TheGist⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://subscribe.mikepesca.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist Youtube Page: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4_bh0wHgk2YfpKf4rg40_g⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist Instagram Page: ⁠⁠⁠⁠GIST INSTAGRAM⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow The Gist List at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Pesca⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Profundities | Mike Pesca | Substack

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EP 20 | Michael Cohen & Eli Lake May 21, 2025

Eli Lake and Michael A. Cohen take stock of the Biden health debate—diagnosis, exaggeration, and whether it's actually affected his presidency. Michael pushes back on what he calls the "decline industrial complex," while Eli says its denial to think Biden was up to the job. Then they turn to Donald Trump's proudly post-moral foreign policy, where human rights don't even make the brochure and alliances are strictly optional. Realpolitik or just real reckless? Either way, they're not even mad. Produced by Corey Wara Email us at ⁠⁠⁠⁠thegist@mikepesca.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ To advertise on the show, contact ⁠⁠⁠⁠sales@advertisecast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ or visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://advertising.libsyn.com/TheGist⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://subscribe.mikepesca.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist Youtube Page: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4_bh0wHgk2YfpKf4rg40_g⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist Instagram Page: ⁠⁠⁠⁠GIST INSTAGRAM⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow The Gist List at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Pesca⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Profundities | Mike Pesca | Substack

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EP 19 | Austin Berg & Eric Zorn May 08, 2025

Austin Berg and Eric Zorn are Not Even Mad as we discuss mayoral overcrowding and Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, the supposed new MAGA slayer. Plus: a few thoughts on our new American spiritual leader—not the pope, but the Surgeon General. Produced by Corey Wara Email us at ⁠⁠⁠⁠thegist@mikepesca.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ To advertise on the show, contact ⁠⁠⁠⁠sales@advertisecast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ or visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://advertising.libsyn.com/TheGist⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://subscribe.mikepesca.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist Youtube Page: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4_bh0wHgk2YfpKf4rg40_g⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to The Gist Instagram Page: ⁠⁠⁠⁠GIST INSTAGRAM⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow The Gist List at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Pesca⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Profundities | Mike Pesca | Substack⁠⁠⁠⁠

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EP 18 | Bryan Green and Carine Hajjar Apr 17, 2025

Boston Globe columnist Carine Hajjar and The Commercial Break's Bryan Green debate whether Joe Rogan's platforming of antisemitic conspiracies signals a deeper rot—or just the cost of open conversation. Plus: should Harvard be defunded? And will Kilmar Abrego Garcia stay in a Salvadoran prison? In Goat Grinders, we take aim at student driver bumper stickers, White Lotus star Aimee Lou Wood's biting critique of SNL, and nothing left to stream.

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EP 17 | Sarah Isgur and Sarada Peri Apr 03, 2025

In this "Not Even Mad" episode, Sarah Isgur of The Dispatch and former Obama speech writer Sarada Peri dig into "massive cuts under DOGE, Cory Booker's latest stemwinder, recent election results, and somehow, Chester A. Arthur crashes the party.

Produced by Corey Wara

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EP 16 | Anthony Weiner and Nick Gillespie Mar 20, 2025

Former Congressman (and current NYC Council candidate) Anthony Weiner and Reason Editor-at-Large Nick Gillespie square off over whether the national debt is an true crisis, if Chuck Schumer made the best of a bad hand, and whether government can—or should—ever shrink. Plus, in Goat Grinders, we take on Walter Cronkite's legacy, the absurd NCAA tournament gripes, and the myth of "wanting it more."

Produced by Corey Wara

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EP 15 | Tariffs and Doge's Dodgy Dogma Mar 06, 2025

On this episode of Not Even Mad, Michael Cohen and Liz Wolfe dissect Trump's State of the Union-ish spectacle, where he barely asked for forbearance on tariffs and delivered a slew of inaccuracies. We debate whether the Democrats' paddle-waving protest theater was cringeworthy or just ineffective. Plus, in Goat Grinders, playground break-ins, Icelandair's deplaning procedures, and the forced obligation of pretending to care about the Oscars.

Produced by Corey Wara

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EP 14 | NYC Mayor Eric Adams & The War In Ukraine Feb 20, 2025

On Not Even Mad, Noam Dworman—owner of the Comedy Cellar and host of Live from the Table—and Dan Savage—of Savage Love and Savage Lovecast—join to debate the non-prosecution of NYC Mayor Eric Adams, and the potential for negotiating an end to the war in Ukraine. Plus, we dive into "goat grinders" on Adrien Grenier, mirror pronouns, media credibility, and—somehow—dental dams. And because you've subscribed directly, enjoy a bonus segment on the most offensive SNL sketches featured in the show's 50th anniversary special.

Produced by Corey Wara

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EP 13 | Trump's Overreach & the Democrats' Lack of Reach Feb 06, 2025

Katie Herzog, co-host of Blocked and Reported, and Jonah Goldberg, editor-in-chief of The Dispatch, discuss if Donald Trump's attempts to blame DEI for a tragic military plane crash and Elon Musk's unplugging of USAID will wind up hurting the Trumpian agenda. Also discussed, the Democrats' disastrous brand - what can a party that once prided itself on broad appeal do to find favor with voters?

Expect spirited debate, sharp analysis, and a commitment to being Not Even Mad just deeply, deeply exasperated.

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Produced by Joel Patterson and Corey Wara

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EP 12 | Trump's First Four Days Jan 23, 2025

Mike is joined by Michael A. Cohen of the Truth and Consequences Substack and MSNBC, along with Matt Welch, Editor-at-Large of Reason magazine, for another installment of Not Even Mad. The trio discusses Trump's inauguration, executive actions, refugee policy, DEI, and the eventful first few days of his second term as POTUS.

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Produced by Joel Patterson and Corey Wara

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EP 11 | Hiatus Over! The Pardon Of Hunter Biden Dec 06, 2024

We reconstitute Not Even Mad with panelists Liz Wolfe (Reason and the Just Asking Questions podcast) and Michael A. Cohen (MSNBC columnist and author of the Truth and Consequences newsletter) to discuss and debate the pardon of Hunter Biden and all the many, many explanations for the Democrats poor showing on election day 2024. Plus, goats are grinded over Standard Time, "Increasingly," and Pamela Anderson with or without makeup.

Produced by Joel Patterson and Corey Wara

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EP 10 | Hiatus? They Didn't Even Get To Know Us Feb 17, 2023

On the final episode of Not Even Mad (well, at least for now), hosts Mike Pesca, David French, and Lara Bazelon discuss the idea the show was founded on, and then Mike signs off.

Produced by Joel Patterson

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Michelle Pesca is COO of Peach Fish Projects

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EP 09 | Puppy Play Purloiner, Jan 6 Criminal Referrals, Republican Deadliness Dec 21, 2022

Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Jamie Kirchick, and Dan Savage discuss the January 6th committee's criminal referrals, two new studies that correlate Republican policies and politicians with higher mortality, and debate the case of Samuel Brinton the self-proclaimed first openly genderfluid federal government employee, who was arrested for stealing luggage from two different airports.

Let us know what you think about this the first 9 episodes of Not Even Mad as we plan out 2023 season: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com

Produced by Ian Scotto

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Michelle Pesca is COO of Peach Fish Projects

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EP 08 | Senator Sinema's Democratic Party Defection, Merchant of Death for Brittney Griner swap, and Twitter Moderation: Futility vs. Utility Dec 14, 2022

EP 08 Senator Sinema's Democratic Party Defection, Merchant of Death for Brittney Griner swap, and Twitter Moderation: Futility vs. UtilityToday on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Jamie Kirchick, and Sarada Peri discuss Arizona Senator Krysten Sinema's switch to Independent, the prisoner swap that gave Russia back a notorious arms dealer, and what new batches of "The Twitter Files" say about the impossibility of satisfactory content moderation.

Let us know what you think about this epiosde, and tell us what topics you'd like to hear discussed: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com

Produced by Ian Scotto

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Michelle Pesca is COO of Peach Fish Projects

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EP 07 | Oath Keeper Conviction, Christian Web Designer disinclinations, and Laptop non-revelations Dec 07, 2022

Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, David French, and Lara Bazelon discuss the speech and discrimination implications of 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis; the not-terribly-difficult task of getting a seditious conspiracy conviction, and ask if Matt Taibbi could wring any more recriminations over coverage of Hunter Biden's Laptop.

Let us know what you think about the podcast, and tell us what topics you'd like to hear discussed: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com

Produced by Ian Scotto

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Michelle Pesca is COO of Peach Fish Projects

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EP 06 | Mass Shooting Motivations, Biden 2024, and Cancel Court: James Webb Space Telescope Nov 30, 2022

Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick discuss narratives around mass shootings, the likelihood of Joe Biden's 2024 bid, and the man with a space telescope named after him goes to Cancel Court.

Let us know what you think about the podcast, and tell us what you'd like to hear Mike, Virginia, and Jamie debate: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com.

Produced by Joel Patterson

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Michelle Pesca COO of Peach Fish Projects

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EP 05 | SBF's Woke-Washing, Red Card For Qatar, and Cancel Court: Leana Wen Nov 23, 2022

Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick ponder the idea that woke Democrats may have enabled SBF's fraud crypto exchange, analyze the decision to participate in Qatar's World Cup, and then don the robes of the Cancel Court to debate the cancellation of former public health official Leana Wen for her Covid-19 stance.

Let us know what you think about the podcast, and tell us what you'd like to hear Mike, Virginia, and Jamie debate: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com.

Produced by Joel Patterson

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Michelle Pesca is COO of Peach Fish Projects

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EP 04 | Trump 2024, Campaigning Against Wokeness, and White Lotus Politics Nov 16, 2022

Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick discuss Donald Trump announcing his run for President again, whether the 2022 election results will be seen as a deathknell to CRT and wokeness as an election issue, and the gender politics in this season of White Lotus.

Let us know what you think about the podcast, and tell us what you'd like to hear Mike, Virginia, and Jamie debate: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com.

Produced by Joel Patterson

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Michelle Pesca COO of Peach Fish Projects

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EP 03 | Mid-Term ClusterTrump, Kyrie Irving Goes To Cancel Court Nov 10, 2022

Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick search for the lessons of Tuesday's midterms and marvel at the poor performance of Donald Trump's hand-picked candidates and what their showings say about his hold on the Republican Party. Then they put the Brooklyn Nets' Kyrie Irving before the Cancel Court.

Subscribe to Not Even Mad on Apple, or wherever you are listening to this.

You can read more about the hosts on our website.

Let us know what you think about the podcast, and tell us what you would like to hear Mike, Virginia, and Jamie debate: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com.

Produced by Joel Patterson

Theme song by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

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EP 02 | Twitter Takeover, Fear Of Crime, and Cancel Court Nov 02, 2022

Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick discuss Twitter's future under the command of Elon Musk and the politics of crime statistics, then they issue a ruling on whether former New York Times Op-Ed page editor James Bennet was canceled or not.

Subscribe to Not Even Mad on Apple, or wherever you are listening to this.

You can read more about the hosts on our website.

Let us know what you think about the podcast, and tell us what you would like to hear Mike, Virginia, and Jamie debate: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com.

Produced by Joel Patterson

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

EP 01 | Herschel Walker, Queer Labeling, and Republican Racism Oct 26, 2022

Today, on the launch episode of Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick discuss the candidacies of Kari Lake and Herschel Walker, ponder the label "queer," and ask if present day Republicanism is inextricably racist.

Subscribe to Not Even Mad on Apple, or wherever you are listening to this. You can read more about the hosts on our website. Let us know what you think about the podcast and what you would like to hear us debate: notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com.

Produced by Joel Patterson

Theme by Max Kerman

Content design by Big Yellow Taxi

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Not Even Mad Trailer Oct 21, 2022

Not Even Mad is a weekly 1-hour podcast dedicated to joyful disagreement. The 3 hosts: Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick address issues from different political perspectives, but they wear their ideologies loosely and are just as likely to disagree with established doctrine as they are with each other. Mike conceived this podcast as a remedy to other news and opinion shows that offer only agreeable dialogue among hosts and guests. There are no shows which offer well-rounded, informed discussions among an established set of panelists who express multiple viewpoints, allowing the listener to identify the strongest arguments as they're being battle-tested.

Follow the hosts on Twitter, Virginia Heffernan @page88 | Jamie Kirchick @jkirchick | Mike Pesca @pescami and @pescagist | and use #NotEvenMad to stay connected.

For inquiries, email us at notevenmad@peachfishprojects.com

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