Nat Chat

Latest Episodes:

24: The Most Effective University in the US: Minerva Schools at KGI Sep 21, 2017

Show notes

"If your child needed to have brain surgery, you would not take them to the hospital that makes other people think highly of you. You would take them to the best hospital you could find. Well, education is brain surgery. It rewires your brain."

In this episode of Nat Chat, I'm joined by Ben Nelson, founder of Minerva and Minerva Schools at KGI. I've been excited to have Ben on the show from the beginning, since Minerva is one of the few education startups out there that's truly changing and competing with the existing university system.

They've taken a completely fresh look at how to run a university in the 21st century, and their results have been incredible, which we get into right as the episode starts. If I were in high school, Minerva would be more appealing than Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, or any prestigious university you typically think of. To find out why, you'll have to hear Ben explain their process.

We covered a wide range of topics, including:

How we learn and how we can improve it
Making educational choices based on value rather than prestige
Major flaws in today's universities
What an optimal university system looks like
The importance of learning real-world skills

And much more. Please enjoy, and reach out to Ben on Quora!

If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more about the college system, you'll want to check out my episode with William Deresiewicz and my episode with Thomas Frank, where we talk about student learning, university flaws, advice for students, and more. You'll also like my episode with Darwish Gani, where we talk about different university systems, finding your passion, networking, and more.

Find Ben Online:

Mentioned in the show:

Minerva [2:05]
KGI [2:05]
CLA [5:33]
Far-Transfer [12:47]
Scientific Method [18:51]
Renaissance Gardens of Italy [23:50]
Victorian Gardens of England [23:50]
Phillips Exeter [31:08]
Choate [31:10]
Walt Disney [35:58]
Olin College of Engineering [52:52]
Quest in Canada [52:54]

Books mentioned:

Building the Intentional University [1:29]
The Elements of Critical Thinking [1:00:57]
Thinking Fast and Slow [1:02:10]

People mentioned:

Diane Halpern [1:00:57]
Eric Mazur [1:01:05]
Daniel Willingham [1:01:10]
Maimonides [1:02:35]
Benjamin Franklin [1:02:40]
Thomas Jefferson [1:02:45]

1:57 - Intro to Ben, some information on the Minerva schools of KGI, why it's the most effective university in the country, and some issues that most learning systems have.

8:45 - How Minerva teaches students more efficiently compared to other universities.

12:45 - The issue with far-transfer and how Minerva corrects this issue by contextualizing and recontextualizing concepts for the student.

16:07 - How Minerva's online communicational teaching aspect works and how Minerva teaches creative thinking.

20:09 - Important and key elements that Minerva leaves you with after graduation, that other universities do not.

21:30 - Minerva's pragmatic and efficient teaching style and its highly effective, personalized style of courses.

27:21 - How large Minerva's current classes are, some info on it having the lowest acceptance rate in the country, and why their admission system is strictly based only on merit.

33:46 - Minerva's unique global campus aspect and the incredible value of teaching students some of the skills necessary to live in the real world.

39:23 - The problem with going to universities based on reputation, rather than what you can learn from them.

43:04 - The issues Minerva faces with students who want to get involved and with obstinate parents.

45:11 - Ben's thoughts on primary and secondary education, some more issues with university classes, how Minerva finds professors who actually want to teach.

52:21 - When Ben first received the idea for Minerva and the problem with other types of newer institutions.

55:47 - Some of the major iterations and learnings Minerva accomplished had so far.

58:33 - Ben on the science of learning and some information on Building the Intentional University.

1:00:47 - Some other books Ben recommends, some of his favorite authors, and inspirations.

1:03:26 - Some last thoughts from Ben and some information on applying to Minerva.

1:05:26 - Where to find Ben online and wrap up.If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

"The fact of the matter is that almost no one believes that education matters because people believe that the credential matters."

23: Timeless Strategies to Achieving Mastery: Mastery by Robert Greene Sep 14, 2017

Show notes

"It's never going to be easier to just learn and to make little money, than when you're young and in the beginning."

In this episode of Nat Chat, I'm joined again by Neil Soni to do another one of our book deep dives, this time on Mastery by Robert Greene.

Mastery is the best book that either of us have found at becoming a master of your craft, getting mentors, learning through experience, and reaching the top of your field. If you're serious about self education and becoming known for your work, there are few better books that you could read to help get you there, and we covered many of the key lessons in this episode.

This is also an exciting episode because it's the launch of mine and Neil's new podcast: "Made You Think," which is dedicated to exploring books, articles, topics, and anything that set our minds on fire. The past episode on Antifragile was extremely popular, and this episode was a ton of fun recording, so we decided to run with it. Be sure to check out Made You Think to hear our episode on Letters from a Stoic, as well as listen to our Antifragile episode if you haven't already.

In this episode though, we covered:

Finding your purpose and achieving skill mastery
Reconnecting with your inner self
Strategies for improving your life and progression
Avoiding common mistakes that hinder growth
Enduring pain to increase mental resilience
Breaking through learning plateaus
Remaining patient and trusting the process
Improving your social intelligence to communicate better

And much more. Enjoy! If you want more on Mastery, be sure to check out my notes on the book and pick up a copy yourself. And don't forget to check out Made You Think for more podcast episodes like this one.

If you enjoyed our discussion on finding a mentor, you'll love my episode with Charlie Hoehn, where we talk about how to find your dream mentor. You'll also like my episode with Justin Mares and my episode with Taylor Pearson, where we talk about apprenticeships, mentors, and more. If you're a fan of long term learning and self-discipline, you'll enjoy my episode with Scott Britton.

Mentioned in the show:

Books mentioned:

People mentioned:

2:03 - Start of the discussion. Nat discussing the layout of the book and how you can benefit from it.

7:58 - Anyone can become a master. Nat and Neil on the first steps to achieving mastery and on the first phase of the book, the apprenticeship phase.

12:10 - Focusing on your personal tendencies that hint at your purpose and thoughts on becoming more connected to yourself.

16:55 - Nat and Neil on Greene's three steps for trying to reconnect with your calling and finding work that you truly enjoy.

19:14 - The large number of potential jobs that are there, but aren't always easy to find. A few examples on this from Nat and Neil.

22:04 - Looking at your career as more of a journey with twists and turns, rather than a straight line. Also, some more ideas for finding the things that you're really interested in.

27:27 - Speaking on learning everything that you can and then detailing the first steps of the apprenticeship phase.

33:12 - Discussing the importance of deliberate practice, deep work, and avoiding distractions to achieve optimal efficiency with your work.

36:47 - Greene's strategies to help you complete the apprenticeship phase and for getting the most out of it.

40:22 - Trusting the process, not setting artificial metrics for yourself, and taking the harder options for more growth.

42:35 - Properly implementing feedback from your failures, the importance of trying different things, and broadening your skills.

45:25 - The necessity for having a mentor and learning from them.53:05 - Choosing the correct mentor, avoiding common mistakes with your mentor, and advice for properly learning from them.

59:20 - Developing social intelligence and improving your ability to navigate personal interactions.

1:06:01 - Strategies to acquire social intelligence and advice for better connecting to others.

1:10:20 - Advice and steps for thinking beyond those initial guidelines, sparking new creativity, and continuing your learning beyond the constraints of the skill.

1:19:58 - Strategies for avoiding emotional pitfalls, maintaining patience, and continually improving yourself.

1:26:18 - Giving yourself an environment to be creative and to actively explore contradictions in yourself and in the world at large.

1:28:35 - Fusing the intuitive with the rational and achieving mastery, seeing the world as it really is, and really trying to understand other's perspectives.

1:35:17 - Wrap up and some final thoughts on the book.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast and remember to check out Made You Think at https://madeyouthinkpodcast.com

22: How to Fund Your Passion through Side Gigs with Shelcy Joseph Sep 07, 2017

Show notes

"Having many hobbies and interests can help because you end up developing a variety of talents which helps in always having something going on or always having some way to make money."

In this episode I'm joined by Shelcy Joseph. I found Shelcy through an article about her and her sister and how they've been building a lifestyle and fashion brand while living in NYC. Fashion does not seem like an easy business to get into, so it was interesting to hear about how she got into it and is building it up.

She's also an intense hustler. At one point she was juggling 6 gigs at once in order to fund her pursuit of this work, and I think she's a perfect example of how you don't have to make the money work right away. You can pick up side gigs and other work to make the finances work until your own thing takes off, without having to give up the passion project just to get a paycheck.

We covered:

How Shelcy managed six jobs at once
Starting a fashion and lifestyle business in New York
Finding the confidence to pursue nontraditional jobs
Recommendations for inspirational figures and transformational books
Advice from Shelcy to others who are pursuing creative solopreneur work
Balancing your work life and passionate pursuits

And a ton more. Please enjoy, and reach out to Shelcy on Twitter!

If you'd like to hear more about having a diverse skillset and networking consistently, you should listen to my episode with Chris Chaney. If you enjoyed the bit about working more now to aid you in the future, you may like my episode with Justin Mares. Lastly, if you want to become a better learner and enjoyed our discussion on education, check out my episodes with Connor Grooms and with Scott Britton.

Find Shelcy Online:

Mentioned in the show:

Books mentioned:

People mentioned:

1:17 - Intro to Shelcy, her story on managing six jobs at one point during her life and what those jobs were.

3:45 - How Shelcy acquired some of her more difficult jobs and her discussing the path she took after college.6:00 - Shelcy's experience with her parents after she decided to pursue a nontraditional job that wasn't in the neuroscience field where she received a degree.

7:23 - How Shelcy found the confidence to pursue a nontraditional job and to become a writer.

11:00 - Whether or not Shelcy plans to get into more neuroscience work in the future and how her knowledge in neuroscience has helped her in her jobs.

12:34 - Where Shelcy currently gets recent neuroscience and psychology information from.

13:30 - How Shelcy learned to apply her neurophysiology knowledge to work that's based around lifestyle instead of work in the medical field.

16:55 - When and how Shelcy started her fashion and lifestyle company, NYCxClothes, and some background on the company.

20:22 - Some of the business partnership opportunities Shelcy gets from her fashion company.

22:36 - How some of the first brand deals happened for Shelcy and what has caused the most growth for her company.

25:35 - Shelcy's goals for the company over the next couple of years and her discussing starting a clothing line in the near future.

30:00 - Shelcy speaking on the photography aspect of her business and her and Nat on learning photography.

33:14 - How Shelcy finds the balance between work and doing passionate things.

36:23 - Shelcy discussing the financial stability with some of her jobs, her experiences with financial stability, and the importance of taking time away from work to educate yourself more.

41:51 - Some of the people Shelcy follows for inspiration, knowledge, and for positive impact.

44:46 - Some other things outside of the business field that has had a large impact on Shelcy. Also, Nat and Shelcy speaking on the usefulness and timeless nature of books.

50:19 - Some pieces of advice, last thoughts, and some things Shelcy wished that she'd known sooner.

55:05 - Wrap up and where to find Shelcy online. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

21: Becoming an Expert Marketer in Record Time with Matthew Barby Aug 31, 2017

Show notes

"The most value you can get at this moment in time that's such an easy reach, is to find someone that's doing the exact same thing as you right now and that's in a different company and just ask them 'What are the problems you're facing?'"

In this episode I'm joined by Matthew Barby. Matt leads the global Growth and SEO strategy for HubSpot, a public company with thousands of employees, and has one of the best marketing and startup growth blogs on the Internet.

He got that job when he was just a few years out of school because he worked relentlessly to master the kinds of marketing work that ended up getting him noticed there. He was working with a small agency, out of a shed as he puts it, and hammering away at trying to get sites more traffic day and night and learning everything he could along the way.

For anyone who wants to know how they can quickly develop a valuable skillset and reach the top of their field… Matt is a great guy to emulate.

We covered:

Advice for improving your search engine rankings
How you can master skills that you're interested in
Reaching out to others as a way to improve your skills
Looking at failure more as a tool for growth rather than a setback
Comparing yourself to others less and being happier with less

And a ton more. Please enjoy, and reach out to Matthew on Twitter!

If you enjoyed our discussion on reaching out to others, you should check out my episode with Chris Chaney, my episode with Charlie Hoehn, and my episode with Justin Mares. If you want to learn more on becoming happier, you may like my episode with Angela Ma.

Find Matthew Online:

Mentioned in the show:

People mentioned:

Joe Chernov

1:33 - Intro to Matthew, him detailing a few recent travel experiences for HubSpot.

5:45 - Matthew's recent speech at MozCon on running growth, failure, and SEO.

8:38 - What Matthew does for HubSpot and him discussing a bit about the company.

10:52 - How Matthew achieved his senior role at HubSpot while still reasonably young.

17:40 - Matthew speaking on how he learned to navigate a much larger company and on the learning curve he faced.

19:44 - Matthew's process for finding people to gain new insights and information that are in similar company roles as himself.

23:30 - Advice for reaching out to others and tips for reaching out to others in similar fields as yourself to drastically improve your expertise.

28:57 - Nat and Matthew on SEO and their advice for learning SEO techniques.

32:33 - Matthew's detailed process for assessing whether certain SEO techniques work or don't work.

37:29 - Framing failures more as knowledge and education, instead of setbacks. Matthew also giving advice for setting goals and on high risk/reward situations in your job.

41:53 - What Matthew did before he received a job at HubSpot and how he learned to be highly proficient in SEO.

47:10 - How Matthew gained to confidence to go through a more difficult career approach after college and him speaking on the importance of persevering through hardships early on to have a larger payout in the future.

50:40 - Nat and Matthew's advice for becoming happier with less and comparing yourself to others less often.

57:15 - Wrap up and where to find Matthew online.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

20: Turning a Love of Sports into an Exciting Career with Chris Chaney Aug 24, 2017

Show notes

"If something doesn't fit or feel right, it is ultimately not what we want to do or want it to be. It's okay to say 'I'm going to do something else."

In this episode of Nat Chat I'm joined by Chris Chaney. He currently runs Chaney holdings, which is a combination of sports marketing and financing for sports related companies and teams.

It all started when he graduated from college. He'd dreamed of working in the NBA, but when he got there, didn't feel like it was the right fit, and quickly left to start his own sports marketing agency. He's continued pursuing his interests, working with all kinds of athletes from basketball players to competitive video games, and followed his interests out into seemingly unrelated fields like startup investing and dinner experiences, which we start the episode by discussing.

If you feel like you have a hard time picking one thing and sticking to it, like I do, Chris is a perfect example of someone who has taken that extremely diverse set of interests and built it into a company and lifestyle that's successful and exciting for him. We cover a wide range of topics, including:

Sports marketing and niche sport industries
Career diversity as a form of leverage
Unique targeting methods companies use on you
Improving your networking and outreach skills
The future of technology and what it means for the jobs market

And a ton more. Please enjoy, and reach out to Chris on Linkedin!

Mentioned in the show:

Books mentioned:

People mentioned:

Show Topics

1:11 - Introduction to Chris, him detailing his journey through various industries and some of the important takeaways he received.

6:01 - Chris' unique dinner attraction industry, some background on it, and how he started the business.

11:37 - Chris discussing what psychographics is, going in-depth on various ad targeting techniques used on people, and how companies use your personal data.

16:44 - How Chris would introduce himself at a cocktail party, him talking about his venture into eSports, and discussing what e-sports are in detail.

24:21 - The financial aspects of eSports and what Chris is currently working on in the eSports industry.

25:23 - How long Chris has been in the sports market and some of the things he's done in that.

28:37 - How Chris got involved in the sports world and him detailing some of the things he's accomplished.

35:14 - Chris speaking on how he earned the money to fund his entrepreneurial projects and speaking on his job with the NBA.

39:11- Chris' experience with sport tech startups and him being introduced to niche sports.

42:27 - How Chris found investors for his projects.

45:55 - Chris' process for great networking and him speaking on becoming more versatile with working in many different types of industries.

50:06 - How Chris reaches out to others and his perspective on doing that in a professional manner.

56:15 - How Chris' passion for entrepreneurial type projects developed and his thoughts on quitting the wrong job.

1:06:16 - What Chris would pursue outside of the sports industry.

1:10:03 - Which book Chris would recommend to others and Nat and Chris' thoughts on the future of technology.

1:15:44 - Wrap up and where to find Chris online.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

19: Are You an Excellent Sheep? A Chat with William Deresiewicz Aug 17, 2017

Show notes

"If you talked about class, you'd have to acknowledge that most of these students are in an extremely privileged class position, and then they would have to see themselves as being part of the problem and not part of the solution."

In this episode I'm joined by William (Bill) Deresiewicz. I reached out to Bill because I loved his book, Excellent Sheep, and thought it provided a fantastic heuristic for college students to evaluate whether or not they're thinking for themselves.

It's especially relevant now, since the concept of not thinking for oneself and following the flock has spilled over into a lot of the social justice warrior and bigoteering behavior, where students lambast and assault people for their beliefs without taking the time to understand them.

We cover a wide range of topics, including:

Improving your ability to think for yourself and why you should
Tackling the issues with rallying and free speech on campuses
How and why certain aspects of college have changed over the years
Improvising more when you don't have a plan after college
If college is necessary for those going into trade

If you enjoyed our discussion of the problems with the college climate, you'd also enjoy my conversation with Angela Ma about depression on campus and how to manage it. Or if you want more on finding work you're passionate about, listen to my conversation with Thomas Frank who has helped thousands of students do just that.

Find Bill Online:

Mentioned in the show:

On Political Correctness (Bill's article)
Middlebury
Middlebury Protest
Goldman Sachs
Khan Academy
Code Academy
MOOC
Carnegie Mellon
Thiel Fellowship

Books mentioned:

Excellent Sheep

People mentioned:

1:10 - Intro to Bill and his thoughts on the protesting against speeches at various universities and him discussing the social justice warriors, political correctness, and privilege in colleges.

6:19 - Bill's thoughts on students latching onto ideas and rallying since they may be lacking that from their studies and work. Also, Bill details why thinking for yourself more often is important.

9:04 - Learning to think for yourself more, Bill's perspective on this, and how college education has changed.

12:40 - Bill speaking on why college education has changed over the last several decades and him going into detail on the competitive aspect of colleges.

16:15 - How to navigate the college system as a student, and some advice on how to choose the right education and get the most out of that education.

19:38 - Bill's advice on the problem of not having a plan after graduation and speaking on the importance of learning to improvise more often in your career life.

22:13 - Discussing the issue with your education becoming obsolete within five to ten years or A.I. replacing your job.

25:25 - Bill's thoughts on the popularity of Khan Academy, other alternative learning sites, and colleges in the future.

28:03 - Advice for those looking to self-educate outside of the classroom and advice for those who feel as though they aren't learning as much as they should in the classroom.

30:48 - Is college is worth it for those not interested in the typical learning experience and who want to go into the trade field?

35:03 - Bill speaking about the other changes to the education system over the past several decades and his thoughts on the tenure system in colleges.

40:43 - How we should tackle the issue of free-speech and rallying in students, and help them think more for themselves.

43:11 - Bill's recommendations for students wanting to get better at thinking for themselves and to improve their learning. Wrap up afterward.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

18: Hacking Free Uber Rides and Reaching Out to Anyone with Kevin Miller Aug 10, 2017

Show notes

"If you don't ask, you'll never know. If you err on the side of asking, more opportunities will come your way." - Kevin Miller

In this episode of Nat Chat I'm joined by Kevin Miller. Kevin was the director of marketing for Spire when we had this conversation, and I wanted to bring him on for the interesting series of jobs and experiences that led him there.

Kevin attended Georgetown University, and while everyone else there was focusing on the big typical careers, he was much more interested in getting into tech. He became a master at cold emailing people to try to learn from them and work with them, which led to conversations with Evan Spiegel, Mark Cuban, and getting the opportunity to sit in and shadow people doing marketing and other jobs in order to learn from them.

He eventually ended up working at Google on their ads team, and after mastering how the ads system works, left to apply it to his own projects, including, among other things, getting thousands of dollars in free uber rides and food.

If you need someone to light a fire under your ass for the benefits of cold outreach and direct mentorship… Kevin is the guy. He's relentless, and it's opened every major door in his life.

We covered a lot, including:

Mastering cold emailing and outreach and making it a consistent habit
The importance of investing in one mentor at a time and being genuine with people
Improving your public speaking skills to aid you in various areas of life
Recognizing skills you lack and improving them through a variety of techniques
Spending your time around people with desirable traits

If you want more advice for further improving your cold emailing and outreach, be sure to check out my interview with Charlie Hoehn. You may also like my interview with Taylor Pearson for learning more about volunteering and direct mentorship, and my interview with Scott Britton for continuously improving your skills and charisma.

Find Kevin Online:

Mentioned in the show:

Books mentioned:

People mentioned:

Show Topics

1:26 - Intro to Kevin and how he received thousands of dollars worth of free Uber rides using clever ad tactics.

3:26 - How Kevin got involved in the tech industry and what sparked his interest in tech related work.

6:37 - Kevin's cold outreach tactic he used to successfully land an internship at True Ventures, a venture capital firm, where he worked at various portfolio companies.

8:33 - Kevin's experience with learning business and content development from True Ventures' portfolio companies and learning from skilled entrepreneurs on entrepreneurial success.

10:15 - What Kevin did after graduation and his learning experiences.12:15 - How Kevin got into the habit of continuously reaching out to people and some useful principles you can apply to your own outreach methods.

15:54 - What Kevin studied in college and his first experiences in entrepreneurship.

19:01 - How Kevin received a job working for Google, what he did there, and how he prepared for the job.

22:34 - Kevin leaving Google to pursue his own interests, learning more with different marketing acquisition channels, and finding a mentor that was crucial for his growth.

25:45 - Some of the other projects Kevin was working on and him eventually becoming a director of marketing for Spire.

31:01 - Some things Kevin had to learn while working at Spire and him detailing his process for recognizing lacking skills and efficiently improving them.

37:36 - Kevin speaking on majoring in business, what he learned, and how important improving your public speaking can be for success.

42:19 - Kevin's experience with reaching out to Mark Cuban.

44:37 - How Kevin learned to perfect his cold email techniques, his experience with contacting Evan Spiegel, and some important career advice from Evan.

48:26 - One of Kevin's favorite experiences with failure and some perspective on learning things based on analyzing failure and identifying the negatives.

52:36 - Kevin's favorite books and experiences that had the most impact on his life.

56:37 - Some last pieces of advice from Kevin to everyone looking for better opportunities.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

17: Q&A Time! My Thoughts on Escaping the Road to Nowhere Aug 03, 2017

Show notes

"When you stop taking college seriously, treat it as a game, and treat everything you do while you're there as exploring and trying new things. You get so much more out of it."

In this episode of Nat Chat, I'm joined again by Josh Lilien. As I mentioned last time, Josh reached out with a few questions for me around self-education, entrepreneurship, and breaking out of the traditional college path, and when it became obvious that he was thinking deeply about these issues, I suggested he interview me as another episode.

We covered:

How to maximize your exposure to positive opportunities and people
Practical advice on how to take advantage of being a student
The benefits from majoring in philosophy
The impact of top tier schools on success and lifestyle
Why you should prioritize foundational skills instead of trade skills
Advice on how to reach out to others more effectively

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out my first podcast episode with Josh Lilien where I interviewed him:

Find Josh Online:

Mentioned in the show:

Carnegie Mellon University
Y Combinator
LinkedIn
How to Get Lucky: Maximizing Exposure to Life Changing Serendipity (Nat's article)
Yale University
IBM
PWC
Wait But Why
Stanford University

Books mentioned:

Traction (Nat's Notes)

People mentioned:

0:56 - Intro to Josh interviewing Nat and a quick description on Josh.2:08 - How going to Carnegie Mellon affected Nat's career and work.

4:17 - The value of meeting intelligent people and exposure to them at Carnegie Mellon.

6:20 - Some advice for maximizing your exposure to people and giving yourself these networking opportunities.

8:18 - Why Nat switched from a business major to a philosophy major and some of the benefits he attained.

12:28 - The transition from business to philosophy and Nat's thoughts on making the switch.

14:23 - Some preparation Nat did for Carnegie Mellon and some thoughts on the education system.

16:53 - Nat's thoughts on the next shift to the infrastructure of education, thoughts regarding student debt, and the low applicability of degrees in trade.

24:10 - Nat's advice for those wanting to stay in college and wanting to do something entrepreneurial. Also, Nat speaking on why you should develop more foundational skills.

28:43 - How students can take advantage of their time at college and some useful advice on how to get the most of out that time.

32:11 - Some other things you can take advantage of as a student and some advice for reaching out to people more effectively.

34:53 - Nat's speaking more on reaching out to people more effectively and efficiently.

38:09 - Nat's thoughts and experiences on the competitive aspect of college.

40:30 - Wrap up on the interview.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

"Study the foundational things that are really interesting to you and then in your free time, pursue whatever trade skill you want to work on and get good at."

16: Sidestepping College to Pursue Your Interests with Josh Lilien Jul 27, 2017

Show notes

"Study something where you approach problems in different and interesting ways." - Josh Lilien

In this episode of Nat Chat, I'm joined by Josh Lilien. Josh reached out to me after I started the podcast, sharing a few ideas of his own for how students can hack college, work on their own projects, and learn outside the classroom. After a few emails, I heard more about his story and wanted to bring him on the show.

We covered a lot in this episode, including:

Self-educating yourself when traditional education isn't useful
How to land an apprenticeship to obtain necessary skills
Minimizing the time you spend in class to devote to other projects
Harnessing the pressure of needing a good GPA to pursue difficult subjects
Book recommendations from Josh to others interested in similar work

Please enjoy, and reach out to Josh on Twitter!

Find Josh Online:

Mentioned in the show:

Books mentioned:

People mentioned:

1:08 - Introduction to Josh and him detailing his education path.

8:26 - Josh explaining how he got started with marketing, how he learned the skills for his job and the resources that helped him out the most.

13:17 - Josh detailing the issues with marketing education and how he was mainly self-taught.

17:04 - Utilizing the pressure of needing a good GPA to assist you in learning more difficult subjects and how you can reverse engineer your exams to minimize your time spent in class.

24:29 - Josh on learning paid ad positioning and him discussing what he is currently working on.

30:38 - Josh discussing his parent's feelings regarding him pursuing his startup and following a non-traditional career path.

35:15 - Some books that were crucial for Josh's success.

37:11 - Josh speaking on his positive experience with networking and his advice for others looking to pursue similar types of work.

40:00 - Wrap up and where to find Josh online.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

15: How to Profit from Chaos: Lessons from Antifragile by Nassim Taleb Jul 20, 2017

Show notes

"Perhaps being deprived of poison makes us fragile and the road to robustification starts with a modicum of harm." - Nassim Nicholas Taleb

This is a new, experimental format for Nat Chat. Normally, I'm interviewing someone who broke out of the traditional college and post graduate career mold, but for this episode, I wanted to do something different.

Neil Soni, who came on for Episode 7, rejoined me to do an in-depth breakdown of the book "Antifragile" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. It's a book that has come up repeatedly as having a huge impact on people's thinking and is one of both of our favorite books.

For me, Antifragile completely changed how I thought about work and life, and I use the concepts from it daily. It highlighted why the education system is so broken, how recent grads can get caught by "silent risks," why we need to stop being so soft on ourselves and others, and a lot more.

Neil and I tried to cover many of the major themes of the book and how to apply them. You'll learn a lot from our discussion, including:

Why you should build up your tangential skills to become more versatile with your work.
The importance of incorporating small, positive lifestyle changes to become more robust in negative situations.
Letting yourself feel negative emotions and experiences for personal growth.
Why you should let your plans be more of a guide, instead of a restriction from other choices.
How you can get luckier through positive luck exposure.
Techniques for turning procrastination into productivity towards other things

Enjoy! And if you want more on Antifragile, be sure to check out my notes on the book and pick up a copy yourself. Also, if you enjoy this episode format, please let me know on Twitter.

Links from the Episode

Mentioned in the show:

You Can't Say That Because You're White
No, Soylent isn't Healthy. Here's Why
Bitcoin
Welcome to Extremistan. Don't Be A Turkey (Taylor Pearson)
Benefits of Fasting
Mom Trusted
Estee Lauder
How to Plan Your Ideal Day (Taylor Pearson)
Optimizing for Optionality (Taylor Pearson)
No Shampoo Article
No Soap Article
Study on Glove Bacteria Transfer

Books mentioned:

People mentioned:

Show Topics

2:20 - Nat and Neil begin to explain the core concepts in Antifragile and discuss various examples of antifragility in today's culture.

13:05 - Some thoughts on fragile and antifragile work environments.

15:38 - Various fragility contributing risks that you may be exposing yourself to and some lifestyle variables you can improve to promote personal antifragility.

20:40 - Nat and Neil speaking on recognizing potential vulnerabilities in your career. They are also discussing the importance of building up tangential skills to become more robust and versatile with your work.

23:08 - How incorporating small stressors into your life can radically improve everything you do, and Nat touching some on a few of the health benefits from intermittent fasting.

35:24 - The importance of recognizing naive interventionism to allow you and others to experience possible, necessary life stressors to promote personal growth.

50:02 - Why you should try to let yourself feel your emotions naturally to learn and grow, instead of immediately turning towards artificial resolution.

54:57 - Benefiting from moments of procrastination and turning procrastination with one thing into productivity towards other things.

1:00:38 - Nat and Neil talking about Taleb's barbell strategy; practicing extreme risk aversion or extreme risk loving in various situations, rather than taking consistent moderate risks. Also, going into detail on making wise investments with your wealth.

1:06:49 - Becoming more antifragile with your wealth and peer relationships by applying the barbell strategy to those areas.

1:09:43 - Letting your plans be more of a guide and not letting them restrict you from other opportunities.

1:16:40 - Spending more time experimenting with something and failing, rather than learning about it from a set of rules or someone else before experimenting.

1:21:15 - The importance of having a high optionality in various aspects of life to promote antifragility, especially with having time available for beneficial opportunities.

1:28:36 - Nat and Neil speaking on creating more optionality for yourself by removing the unnecessary and being aware of more naive interventions.

1:42:11 - Some closing thoughts from Nat and Neil on "Skin in the game", which is making decisions based on if you have exposure to the downsides and upsides of those decisions.

1:45:47 - Wrap up and a quick overview of some healthy stressors you can incorporate into your own life.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe at https://nateliason.com/podcast

"Whenever there's a problem, the first question shouldn't be, 'What do I add to fix it?' but rather, 'What can I remove to fix it?'"

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