Mormon Discussion Podcast

**Oliver Cowdery: Book of Mormon Witness** Dec 04, 2025
Oliver Cowdery was more than Joseph Smith’s scribe. Oliver was a co-founder of the Mormon movement, a visionary of sacred experiences with Heavenly Messengers, and one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon’s golden plates as well as an angel. But what happens when that witness walks away? In this episode of Mormonism Live, we dive deep into Cowdery’s life, exploring his pivotal role in early Church history, his fiery fallout with Joseph, and the twists and turns of his life outside Mormonism and in the end, back in. Did he ever truly deny his testimony? Are there holes in his credibility? And what does his journey say about the reliability of the Book of Mormon’s origin story? Join us as we trace the complex, fascinating arc of a man who saw angels, practiced law, stood in courtrooms—and maybe stood on the edge of belief itself.

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The post Oliver Cowdery: Book of Mormon Witness appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Will A Man Rob Adam God?** Dec 02, 2025
In this follow-up to “To Catch a Thief,” Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel return with a deeper, wider investigation into the claims and credibility of Ward Radio’s Jonah Barnes. Last time, we showed clear evidence that Barnes lifted Eldon Watson’s Adam-God research and passed it off as his own. This time, we broaden the lens. RFM and Bill walk through a lineup of respected scholars and historians whose work directly contradicts Barnes’s narratives, exposing just how far he’s been stretching, bending, or outright stealing ideas to prop up his platform. When someone pretends to be a scholar but builds influence on borrowed work, eventually the bill comes due. But the story doesn’t stop at plagiarism. In this episode, we document an additional example of theft that goes well beyond plagiarism. This episode lays out the receipts. Clear. Detailed. Irrefutable. If you care about integrity in Mormon scholarship, or you’ve just been waiting for the sequel, this is the deep dive you’ve been asking for.

ESOURCES:
https://mrm.org/jonah-barnes https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/e6a939a0-3402-4771-814d-4eaf2547e613/0/0?lang=eng

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The post Will A Man Rob Adam God? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Bishop Leaves LDS Church !** Nov 24, 2025
In this episode, we break down the story of a Latter-day Saint Bishop who when he was currently serving when he officially stepped away from the Mormon Church. We’ll walk through what led to his decision, what he saw behind the curtain as a leader, and how the gap between the Church’s public messaging and its private reality became impossible for him to ignore. This isn’t just another faith transition story. It’s a rare account from someone who lived the system, moved up in the ward hierarchy, enforced the rules, and finally couldn’t keep pretending the narrative matched the facts. We’ll also talk about the fallout: how his ward reacted, how local leaders tried to handle the situation, and what this kind of departure says about the broader institutional cracks appearing inside modern Mormonism. It’s raw, honest, and a window into the experiences that thousands in leadership quietly wrestle with.

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The post Mormon Bishop Leaves LDS Church ! appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism’s Adam God Doctrine Never Existed ?** Nov 13, 2025
Mormonism Live’s Bill Reel & RFM dive deep into a recent claim by Ward Radio that the so-called “Adam God Doctrine” never existed. They sift through the documentary history, the original speeches, journal entries, and the commentary of leading Mormon scholars to see if the claim holds up. Did the doctrine ever exist? Was it a misunderstanding, a misrepresentation, or a developed belief held by some early leaders? We’ll explore all that—and what it means for a faith’s history where its apologists do everything they can to get away from the problems and contradictions of Mormonism

Thank you for your support
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Ward Radio’s Original Commentary – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9RU7MAXVfc

Dialogue article Footnote 76 (claim Adam God was taught in the SLC temple too and not just Saint George) – https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-adam-god-doctrine/

The post Mormonism’s Adam God Doctrine Never Existed ? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**What Do The Dead Sea Scrolls Mean For The Book of Mormon?** Nov 06, 2025
This week on Mormonism Live, Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon sit down with researcher Kolby Reddish for a fascinating deep dive into the Dead Sea Scrolls and what they reveal about the Book of Mormon’s ancient claims. Kolby walks us through the history of the Scrolls, what they actually contain, and how they’ve transformed modern biblical scholarship. Then the conversation turns to the big question: If these are the most important ancient Hebrew and Aramaic writings ever discovered, certainly they mean something about the history, language, theology, and narrative patterns found in the Book of Mormon? Don’t miss this one—it’s history, scholarship, and critical thinking at their best. Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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The post What Do The Dead Sea Scrolls Mean For The Book of Mormon? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Martin Harris: Book of Mormon Witness Credibility Examined** Oct 30, 2025
Everyone knows Martin Harris as one of the Three Witnesses. But few know how strange, conflicted, and revealing his story really is. Was he a man of unwavering faith in the Truth… or a man chasing every new revelation that came along? In this episode of Mormonism Live, we dig into the real Martin Harris; the devout farmer who financed the Book of Mormon, saw angels (and maybe more), then spent decades bouncing between movements, prophets, and visions. From his 1838 claim that he only saw the plates “in vision or imagination,” to his deep belief in the Shaker “Sacred Roll and Book,” to his eventual return to Utah under Brigham Young’s wing.

Every major twist in Harris’s life points to one central question:

Can we trust Martin Harris as a reliable witness for the Restoration? Whether you’re a believer who reveres his testimony or a skeptic who doubts every word, you’ll walk away seeing Harris, and the early Church, in a far more complicated light than ever before.

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If anyone needs support dealing with spiritual trauma, 1-on-1 coaching and support groups are available at https://awakenandthrive.org

Resources:

Martin Harris: The Kirtland Years, 1831-1870

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letterbook-2/69?utm_source=chatgpt.com
https://fullerconsideration.com/images/Tiffany’s%20Monthly%20-%20Mormonism%20No.%202%20-%20Martin%20Harris.pdf
https://bhroberts.org/records/nvGFqb-0LWaIn/burnetts_letter_claims_witnesses_confessed_to_not_seeing_the_plates

Martin Harris: Mormonism’s Early Convert

The post Martin Harris: Book of Mormon Witness Credibility Examined appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Brigham Young: Matchmaker to the Stars** Oct 23, 2025
Lee Krahenbuhl returns to Mormonism Live for a fascinating deep dive into some of the strangest and most unusual aspects of Mormon history. Discover the surprising connections between Brigham Young, matchmaking traditions, spirit messages from Joseph Smith, and the most famous magician of the 19th century.

What hidden stories link Mormon leaders, spiritualism, and 19th-century magic?

How do these strange connections reshape our understanding of LDS history? Don’t miss this eye-opening episode as we uncover the bizarre, the mysterious, and the downright magical side of Mormonism’s past.

Support Mormonism Live here: https://donorbox.org/mormonism-live

RESOURCES:
https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/dacd8009-cabe-438d-bd55-2319992d5ea2/0/0

The post Brigham Young: Matchmaker to the Stars appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Sarah Steed: Unmasking Mormonism** Oct 16, 2025
Tonight on Mormonism Live, Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon sit down with writer and blogger Sarah Steed, whose essays contain sharp insight, poetic honesty, and unflinching critique of LDS culture. Sarah’s work dives deep into the unspoken layers of Mormon life—gender, perfectionism, obedience, and the lingering ghosts of patriarchy that shape the spiritual experience of both men and women. She explores how theology becomes culture, how “sisterhood” can sometimes turn into surveillance, and how the Restoration’s original mysticism was slowly domesticated into corporate religion. This is not your typical discussion on faith. Expect intelligent dialogue, uncomfortable questions, and honest reflections about what it means to be whole in a system that prizes obedience over authenticity.

Topics Include:
• LDS theology and the loss of mysticism
• The hidden cost of perfection culture
• How patriarchy recruits both men and women
• Rethinking “eternal marriage” and divine feminine power
• What a more authentic, spiritually alive Mormonism might look like

RESOURCES:
* https://substack.com/@thesarahsteed
* https://thesarahsteed.substack.com/p/why-women-would-rather-be-alone
* https://thesarahsteed.substack.com/p/for-all-eternity
* https://thesarahsteed.substack.com/p/the-ghost-of-polygamys-past-f02
* https://thesarahsteed.substack.com/p/the-trouble-with-being-perfect
* https://thesarahsteed.substack.com/p/forever-isnt-a-plan-temple-ready
* https://thesarahsteed.substack.com/p/the-sunday-smile
* https://substack.com/home/post/p-172891704

Join the live chat and be part of the conversation as we unpack the cultural, psychological, and spiritual realities behind modern Mormonism.

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The post Sarah Steed: Unmasking Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Preparatory Path of LDS Prophet Dallin H. Oaks** Oct 14, 2025
In this special episode, we take a in-depth look at the life and ministry of Elder Dallin H. Oaks, who stands next in line to become President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Few leaders have been as controversial —from his time as President of BYU to decades in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We’ll explore the major moments that have shaped his spiritual approach to the gospel and to others: the legal mind that helped define Church policy, the Speaker who spoke boldly on Church theology, and the Latter-day Saint disciple who has guided the Church in shaping its modern approach. This episode offers a sincere examination of the experiences, decisions, and teachings that have defined Elder Oaks’s journey of as a Latter -day Saint Leader

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The post The Preparatory Path of LDS Prophet Dallin H. Oaks appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Reed Smoot Hearings: When Mormon Prophets Tell The Truth** Oct 02, 2025
Mormonism Live uncovers the explosive history of the Reed Smoot Hearings (1904–1907)—a time when Mormon leaders, including President Joseph F. Smith, were forced to testify under oath before the United States Senate. What happens when prophets, seers, and revelators can no longer hide behind the pulpit and instead must answer blunt questions from skeptical senators under oath and penalty of perjury?

We’ll walk you through:
Why the hearings began and why the nation was riveted.
Joseph F. Smith’s shocking admissions about polygamy, revelation, and his business empire.
The contradictions between what Church leaders told the U.S. Senate versus what they taught faithful members in Utah.
Scandals, evasions, and the unforgettable moment when the Prophet declared: “I have never pretended to… have received revelations.”
The cultural and political fallout that permanently changed Mormonism and shaped its path toward assimilation in American society.

This is Mormon history like you’ve never seen it: senators grilling prophets, prophets evading and confessing, and the whole nation watching.

Subscribe for more hard-hitting episodes exposing Mormon history and leadership contradictions.
Like this video and share it with others digging into the truth.
Join the conversation in the comments below!
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The post The Reed Smoot Hearings: When Mormon Prophets Tell The Truth appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Personal Letter To Elder Renlund** Oct 01, 2025
What happens when a Mormon Apostle gets asked troublesome questions about Mormonism? In this episode of Mormonism Live, RFM and Bill Reel sit down with someone who had questions —hard questions — for the LDS Apostle about Mormonism. As the conversation unfolds, we witness a fascinating dynamic: a man taking a closer look at belief, truth claims, and the stories the Church tells its members. It’s a rare opportunity to see what happens when one presses for clarity—and Elder Renlund finds himself on the receiving end of uncomfortable but essential inquiries. Don’t miss this unique episode that blends sharp humor, keen insight, and the kind of candid exploration you’ve come to expect from Mormonism Live. ***EDIT NOTE*** During post-production, several brief portions of the conversation were removed at the request of our guest. We made every effort to preserve the flow while respecting those edits. As a result, a few transitions may feel slightly abrupt, but the overall discussion remains intact and hopefully easy to follow.

Tune in live, join the chat, and be part of the conversation.
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The post Personal Letter To Elder Renlund appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Sacred or Stolen? Mormon Temples and Masonry** Sep 19, 2025
What do Mormon temples and Masonic lodges really have in common? In this episode of Mormonism Live, Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon dig deep into the original words of LDS leaders, historians, and first-hand witnesses to uncover the startling overlap between Freemasonry and the Mormon temple endowment. From Joseph Smith and Heber C. Kimball to Brigham Young and beyond, the record is clear: Church authorities openly admitted the connection—sometimes calling Masonry “apostate priesthood” or even “corrupted endowments.” We’ll walk you through the actual quotes, the historical documents, and the missing context you won’t hear in Sunday School. Did Joseph Smith borrow, adapt, or restore ancient rituals? Why did so many early Saints see Masonry as a stepping stone to the temple? And what does it mean for the truth claims of Mormonism today? Whether you’re a believing Latter-day Saint curious about your faith’s origins, or a post-Mormon looking for validation that the pieces don’t quite fit, this episode has the receipts.
Join the conversation LIVE and bring your questions.

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Bibliography For Episode https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/09/Masonry-Mormonism-Bibliography.pdf

The post Sacred or Stolen? Mormon Temples and Masonry appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Legal Battles of Mormonism’s Joseph Smith** Sep 04, 2025
Join Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon on Mormonism Live as we dig into the long and turbulent history of Joseph Smith’s run-ins with the law. From treasure digging charges in New York, to assault accusations in Ohio, to treason indictments in Missouri and Illinois, Joseph Smith’s life was marked by constant legal battles that shaped both his reputation and the future of Mormonism.

We’ll trace the key moments where courts, judges, and mobs intersected with the Mormon prophet, exploring how his actions, claims, and conflicts repeatedly brought him face-to-face with American justice—and ultimately led him to Carthage Jail. Expect courtroom drama, fascinating documents, and a closer look at the myth versus the historical reality.

Don’t miss this deep dive into The Legal Battles of Mormonism’s Joseph Smith — streaming live Wednesday at 6pm Mountain Time!

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The post The Legal Battles of Mormonism’s Joseph Smith appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**An Inconvenient Fraud** Aug 28, 2025
Tonight on Mormonism Live, Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon take on the brand-new video series “An Inconvenient Faith” — a polished production where scholars, researchers, and familiar voices inside and outside the LDS Church confront the most problematic issues in Mormonism. We’ll break down the claims, highlight what the so-called “Experts” gets right (and where it pulls punches), and talk openly about why the Church’s truth claims simply don’t hold up under scrutiny. Whether you’re curious, questioning, or already on the other side, this conversation promises to go deeper than the deflection of problems that many in the series preferred.

Check out the Inconvenient Faith channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@InconvenientFaith/videos

Don’t miss it — live chat, commentary, and the kind of analysis you won’t find in Sunday School.

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The post An Inconvenient Fraud appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**50 Years of Sunstone with Mormon Stories’ John Dehlin !** Aug 21, 2025
Tonight on Mormonism Live, RFM and Bill Reel are joined by special guest John Dehlin of Mormon Stories to reflect on five decades of Sunstone—the symposium that has been at the heart of Mormon thought, scholarship, and counter-narratives for half a century. From its beginnings in the 1970s to its role today as a gathering place for both believers and post-believers, Sunstone has been a hub for open dialogue, difficult questions, and groundbreaking conversations. Together, we’ll explore its history, controversies, influence, and where it may be headed in the next fifty years. Join us live and add your voice in the chat as we dive into this landmark moment in Mormonism’s intellectual and cultural journey. To come into the studio during the call in section please click – https://streamyard.com/knqex46wg5 Live Tonight, 6 PM Mountain Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell so you don’t miss it!

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The post 50 Years of Sunstone with Mormon Stories’ John Dehlin ! appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Hidden True Crime’s Lauren Matthias** Aug 14, 2025
Tonight on Mormonism Live *** LAUREN COMES INTO THE PODCAST 1/2 HOUR IN **** We’re joined by investigative journalist and podcaster Lauren Matthias about a half hour into the show, creator and host of the acclaimed Hidden True Crime podcast. Lauren has built a reputation for deep, thoughtful reporting on some of the most compelling and disturbing criminal cases in recent years, including the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell saga. In this episode, we’ll explore Lauren’s journey into true crime reporting, the behind-the-scenes realities of covering high-profile cases, and what her investigations have revealed about human behavior, justice, and the communities where these stories unfold. Expect a fascinating, candid conversation that blends Mormonism Live’s trademark critical lens with Lauren’s insider knowledge of criminal cases that have captivated—and shocked—the nation.

Derek Cordon Homicide
Part 1 – https://youtube.com/live/VAWlqV0nNwA
Part 2 – https://youtube.com/live/KuUMuM5aEIk
Part 3 – https://youtube.com/live/uf70jQ3UeSA
Part 4 – https://youtu.be/SbCw0Cd17t0

The post Hidden True Crime’s Lauren Matthias appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism & The Snout of Anubis: Joseph Smith Loses Face** Aug 08, 2025
Tonight on Mormonism Live, we take a scalpel to Mormonism’s Founder Joseph Smith as He takes one to a Book of Abraham character What happens when a god loses his snout which Has Joseph Smith losing face—and why does it feel so… Mormon? In this off-the-rails episode, Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon dive deep into the bizarre, symbolic, and surgical mutilation of Anubis, the Egyptian god of the dead, and uncover what this act might represent within Mormonism’s tangled relationship with Egyptian & The Book of Abraham We take a deep look at the potential effort of Mormon Founder Joseph Smith to muzzle the truth and cover his tracks. The snout is gone. The truth is not. Tune in.

The post Mormonism & The Snout of Anubis: Joseph Smith Loses Face appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Joseph Smith: Hypnotist** Jul 31, 2025
How Did Joseph Smith Convince So Many? Exploring Hypnosis, Visions, and the Birth of a Movement

How did Joseph Smith inspire thousands to not only believe in his prophetic gifts but also claim their own divine visions and supernatural encounters? Could hypnosis or altered states of consciousness explain part of the story? Tonight, we explore the controversial theory that Joseph Smith may have used hypnotic influence to spark spiritual experiences—and how that shaped early Mormonism. Don’t miss this mind-bending episode!

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Join Us For A Live Show – August 4th, 2025 RFM, Bill, & Rebecca are gathering in person for a Live Showing of the Mormon Newscast in Salt Lake City! Grab your spot before tickets run out: https://donorbox.org/events/784033

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The post Joseph Smith: Hypnotist appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Turning Faith into a Fortune: The Religion Business** Jul 24, 2025
What happens when faith becomes a franchise? In this gripping episode of Mormonism LIVE, we sit down with award-winning filmmaker Nathan Apffel and Chris Ayoub to discuss his upcoming documentary “The Religion Business”—a hard-hitting exposé exploring the multi-billion dollar intersection of belief, power, and profit. From televangelists to temples, we’ll pull back the curtain on how modern religious empires are built, marketed, and monetized. Nathan and Chris shares behind-the-scenes insights into the making of the film, jaw-dropping moments from his interviews, and the uncomfortable truths he’s uncovered about how organized religion can exploit spiritual hunger for institutional gain. Whether you’re a believer, a skeptic, or somewhere in between, this conversation will challenge you to consider where devotion ends and the business begins.

PREMIER 1 – https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-religion-business-salt-lake-premiere-1-tickets-1497737024759?msockid=1f8172e49f156a17358a64eb9e876b0e
PREMIER 2 – https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-religion-business-salt-lake-premiere-2-tickets-1500878260279?msockid=1f8172e49f156a17358a64eb9e876b0e
Purchase the docuseries here – https://www.thereligionbusiness.com/docuseries

Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe to join the conversation.

#TheReligionBusiness #NathanApffel #MormonismLIVE #FaithCrisis #ReligiousProfitMachine #ExMormon #Documentary #ChurchMoney

The post Turning Faith into a Fortune: The Religion Business appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Predatory Techniques of Mormonism’s Prophet Joseph Smith** Jul 22, 2025
What If the Prophet You Trust Showed Signs You’d Warn Your Children About? We often teach our children how to recognize red flags—signs that someone might not have good intentions. But what happens when those same behaviors show up in the life of someone we revere as a prophet? In this eye-opening episode, we explore the established patterns and techniques used by predators—behaviors like isolating individuals, using spiritual authority, giving gifts, and creating undue emotional dependence. Then we take a close, respectful look at the life of Joseph Smith to see if these patterns emerge. This isn’t about attacking faith. It’s about asking hard, faithful questions in pursuit of truth—because if our beliefs are true, they can withstand scrutiny. And if they aren’t, shouldn’t we want to know? If you’ve ever felt something didn’t quite sit right with certain stories in Church history, you’re not alone. Let’s explore this with clarity, compassion, and a commitment to truth. #JosephSmith #MormonHistory #GroomingAwareness #LDSTruthSeekers #MormonFaithCrisis #LDS #latterdaysaints

The post Predatory Techniques of Mormonism’s Prophet Joseph Smith appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Spiritual Abuse** Jul 12, 2025
Lila Tueller, Daughter of LDS General Authority, Shares Untold Stories of Pain and Faith in “Shattered Trust” What happens when loyalty to the Church comes at the expense of the individual? Lila Tueller, daughter of well-known LDS General Authority Hartman Rector, Jr., has spent a lifetime inside the heart of Mormonism. In her powerful new book, Shattered Trust, she opens the door to stories rarely acknowledged—firsthand accounts from members and former members who found themselves caught between personal suffering and institutional silence. In this episode of Mormonism Live, we explore Lila’s perspective and the deeply moving narratives she shares. With clarity and compassion, Shattered Trust sheds light on what can happen when systems meant to uplift become blind to the pain within their own walls. If you’ve ever wrestled with questions about faith, loyalty, and accountability, this conversation may offer the validation—and the honesty—you didn’t know you were looking for. Lila’s Book “Shattered Trust” can be purchased early – https://new-leaf-publishing.kit.com/743db0bf92 Lila has another book “I Love You Because: A Collection of Thoughts and Memories” – https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FD8C8CKW Narcisstic abuse recovery Book by Lila – https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F5BF1NS1 Lila is a fabric designer. You can visit her shop where fabrics are sold – https://lilatuellerdesigns.etsy.com

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The post Mormon Spiritual Abuse appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Joseph Smith: The Man Behind Mormonism** Jul 03, 2025
Who really was Joseph Smith? When one peels back the layers of legend and legacy to explore the life of Mormonism’s controversial founder, a far more complex and human figure emerges—part visionary, part rebel, and entirely unlike the sanitized version told in Sunday School. From buried golden plates and seer stones to secret plural marriages and clashes with the law, this conversation reveals the man behind the movement. Was he a prophet inspired by God—or a charismatic charlatan driven by ambition? Whether you’re a faithful Latter-day Saint, a curious seeker, or someone wrestling with LDS beliefs, this episode offers a compelling, eye-opening look at the man who started it all—and it just might change the way you see Mormonism forever.

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The post Joseph Smith: The Man Behind Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Sneakiest Mormon Apologetic Of Them All** Jun 26, 2025
Of all the misleading tactics used by Latter-day Saint apologists, this one might just take the crown. It’s sneaky, it’s calculated—and even after being called out repeatedly, they still keep doing it. Why? Because when it comes to defending Mormonism and the LDS Church, it seems the ends justify any means. But not this time. We’re calling it out publicly—and you need to see it for yourself.

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**Book of Abraham Apologetics [Mormonism Live 238]** Jun 19, 2025
In this episode of Mormonism Live, Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon dive headfirst into the Church’s newest official Gospel Topics entry on the Book of Abraham, dissecting its language, implications, and apologetic framing. With surgical precision (and just a bit of satire), they explore how the Church attempts to repackage decades of controversy surrounding Joseph Smith’s translation claims, the missing scroll theory, and the pivot to the “catalyst theory.” Listeners will be taken through the subtle rhetorical maneuvers in the essay—how it avoids hard declarations, redefines “translation,” and leans on ambiguity to keep belief afloat. The hosts also unpack the broader trend of shifting responsibility from prophetic certainty to scholarly speculation, while comparing this essay with past statements and apologetic strategies. This is not just a history lesson—it’s a real-time case study in institutional narrative management. For anyone who’s ever wondered how a modern-day church tries to make a 19th-century Egyptian fiasco feel “faith-promoting,” this episode is a must-listen.

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**Mormonism & the Dead Sea Scrolls [Mormonism Live 237]** Jun 12, 2025
Discovered by accident in a desert cave, the Dead Sea Scrolls have become one of the most significant archaeological finds of the last century. But what do they actually say—and why do they matter? In this episode, we explore the strange, surprising, and deeply revealing world of the scrolls: hidden prophecies, rival messiahs, priesthood power struggles, sacred meals, and apocalyptic expectations. Whether you’re fascinated by ancient scripture, curious about early religious movements, or wondering how it all connects to Mormonism, this episode pulls back the curtain on one of history’s greatest textual mysteries.

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The post Mormonism & the Dead Sea Scrolls [Mormonism Live 237] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**LDS Church In Trouble With IRS? [Mormonism Live 236]** Jun 12, 2025
**EXPOSED: LDS Church & Tax Filing Fraud?**
In this special edition of Mormonism Live, we uncover stunning new evidence that suggests the **Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may have violated U.S. tax laws**—intentionally.

From questionable filings to shell entities and hidden assets, this episode lays out what we’ve found, why it matters, and what legal consequences the Church could face if the IRS takes action.

We follow the paper trail, examine public records, and reveal the patterns that point to a systemic problem far beyond “clerical error.”

**Is this financial mismanagement—or deliberate deception?**
**How deep does it go? Who’s behind it? And what happens next?**

This could be the biggest legal scandal the modern Church has faced.
**Watch now before the spin begins.**

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The post LDS Church In Trouble With IRS? [Mormonism Live 236] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Book of Abraham’s Missing Scroll Theory [Mormonism Live 235]** Jun 12, 2025
Is the Book of Abraham based on papyrus we no longer have? In this episode, we explore the Missing Scroll Theory—the idea that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from a long roll of papyrus that has since been lost or destroyed. We’ll examine the historical records, including firsthand accounts from early Saints like Lucy Mack Smith, who described a distinct long scroll separate from the surviving fragments. Apologists argue this missing roll may still vindicate Joseph’s translation. Critics say the theory is a modern invention meant to rescue a narrative that doesn’t fit the evidence. Join us as we unpack the assumptions, the math, and the motives behind the Missing Scroll Theory.

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The post The Book of Abraham’s Missing Scroll Theory [Mormonism Live 235] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Science vs. Mormonism [Mormonism Live 234]** Jun 12, 2025
[Mormonism Live 234] In this episode of Mormonism Live, Radio Free Mormon (Bill is on vacation) dives headfirst into the growing tension between scientific discovery and Mormon doctrine. When it comes to mormonism in the modern world, science keeps raising its hand with uncomfortable questions. The LDS Church, meanwhile, continues to insist it has the answers… or at least that it’s “not official doctrine” when the answers don’t hold up. Tune in as we put the truth claims of Mormonism under the microscope.

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The post Science vs. Mormonism [Mormonism Live 234] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon War Hero Who Lied: The Douglas Stringfellow Scandal** May 22, 2025
What happens when a celebrated war hero, beloved by both Congress and the LDS Church, turns out to be living a lie? In this episode of Mormonism Live, we investigate the incredible true story of Douglas Stringfellow — a Utah congressman, decorated veteran, and rising star in postwar America… until it all came crashing down. Join us as we uncover a decades-old scandal that raises timeless questions about truth, trust, and the power of a really good story. You won’t believe how far this deception went — or who may have looked the other way. Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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The post Mormon War Hero Who Lied: The Douglas Stringfellow Scandal appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**John Taylor and the Truth About the Dark Ages: Rethinking the Great Apostasy** May 15, 2025
In this eye-opening episode of Mormonism Live, hosts Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon are joined by author and theologian Charley Harrell to explore his powerful Dialogue Journal article, “John Taylor on the ‘Dark Ages’.” Together, they take a deep dive into how third LDS Church President John Taylor challenged the traditional narrative of the Great Apostasy—offering a radically different view of the Middle Ages, where spiritual gifts and divine revelation still thrived. Was there really a total apostasy after the death of Christ, or have we misunderstood what “spiritual darkness” means? Harrell examines Taylor’s 1873 discourse, revealing that the LDS prophet acknowledged divine influence and religious truth outside of Mormonism—even among Christian mystics and thinkers during the so-called “Dark Ages.” This conversation reframes the LDS Church’s apostasy narrative, opens the door to interfaith spirituality, and raises critical questions about revelation, church authority, and doctrinal evolution. Whether you’re a believing Latter-day Saint, a post-Mormon, or simply curious about Christian history and theology, this episode offers compelling insights that challenge conventional Mormon teachings.

The post John Taylor and the Truth About the Dark Ages: Rethinking the Great Apostasy appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Dream Mine Story: Mormonism’s Most Expensive Revelation [Mormonism Live 231]** May 08, 2025
What do you get when you mix Mormon folklore, an angelic visitation, and a supposed Nephite treasure buried in a Utah hillside? You get one of the strangest, most persistent sagas in LDS history: the story of John Hyrum Koyle and the Dream Mine. In this episode, we dig into the bizarre and fascinating tale of a humble Mormon bishop who claimed Angel Moroni showed him an ancient gold cache meant to rescue the Church in the last days. From visions and prophecies to excommunication and conspiracy, the Dream Mine became a battleground between grassroots revelation and institutional control—and it still has believers buying stock today. Join us as we explore the wild intersection of faith, finance, folklore, and failed prophecy. Whether you’re a questioning Mormon, a history nerd, or just here for the gold-digging angels, this is one you don’t want to miss.

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The post The Dream Mine Story: Mormonism’s Most Expensive Revelation [Mormonism Live 231] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Utah’s Bloodiest Secret: Mormonism and the Black Hawk War [Mormonism Live 230]** May 01, 2025
This episode of Mormonism Live, we dive into a forgotten battlefield of Utah history — the Black Hawk War — a brutal and devastating conflict between Mormon settlers and Native American tribes that has been largely buried under pioneer myths and whitewashed storytelling. Far from a few isolated raids, the Black Hawk War (1865–1872) was Utah’s deadliest and most destructive conflict, costing hundreds of lives, displacing entire tribes, and forcing Mormon settlements to be abandoned across southern Utah. We’ll explore how this violent chapter unfolded, why the LDS Church worked so hard to minimize it, and the staggering story of Antonga Black Hawk — the baptized Ute leader who fought for his people’s survival and whose remains were later put on public display like a trophy. In this episode, we ask the uncomfortable questions: How did religious manifest destiny fuel the bloodshed? Why was this “war” covered up for so long? And what does reckoning with this history reveal about Mormonism’s legacy of colonization? Get ready — this is the real Mormon history they never taught you in Sunday School.

The post Utah’s Bloodiest Secret: Mormonism and the Black Hawk War [Mormonism Live 230] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Digital Deception: Unmasking The Fake Bill Reel Account [Mormonism Live 229]** Apr 27, 2025
A fake email account bearing Bill Reel’s name was used to manipulate and deceive—an incident that has raised serious questions about digital ethics, privacy violations, and personal targeting within the post-Mormon space. In this episode, we break down what happened, how the deception unfolded, and why the details point in a very specific direction. From curious inconsistencies to insider-level knowledge, the clues reveal more than the perpetrator may have intended. We’ll walk you through the timeline, the evidence we’ve collected, and the larger implications for trust and accountability in our community. This isn’t just a personal issue—it’s a story that reflects the lengths some will go to silence or sabotage others. Join us as we put the puzzle pieces together and invite you to consider what the facts reveal.

The post Digital Deception: Unmasking The Fake Bill Reel Account [Mormonism Live 229] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Prophets, Polygamists & Pretenders: Inside Mormonism’s Schisms and Sects** Apr 24, 2025
When Joseph Smith died in 1844, the Restoration shattered like a glass dropped from heaven. What followed was a century-spanning explosion of rival prophets, breakaway churches, polygamist kingdoms, angelic messages, and more than one self-crowned king.

In this episode of Mormonism Live, Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon take you on a deep dive into the wild and fractured world of LDS splinter groups. From the well-known Community of Christ and FLDS to obscure sects like the Cutlerites, Strangites, Bickertonites, and Church of the Firstborn of the Lamb of God, we explore who these groups are, what they believe, and why they broke away from the main LDS Church.

We’ll examine their truth claims, theological quirks, and historical oddities—temple rites in basements, prophets behind bars, reincarnated Nephites, and the never-ending quest for Zion. Whether you’re a seasoned ex-Mormon or just religion-curious, this episode unpacks the Restoration’s lesser-known heirs with humor, history, and a healthy dose of skepticism.

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The post Prophets, Polygamists & Pretenders: Inside Mormonism’s Schisms and Sects appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Wacky World of Polygamy Deniers** Apr 17, 2025
[Mormonism Live: 227] Welcome to the alternate reality where Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, the angels with swords were just metaphors, and dozens of wives—including teenagers and already-married women—somehow just… didn’t exist. In this week’s episode of Mormonism Live, Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon are joined by Mormonism Historian Dan Vogel as they dive headfirst into the bizarre and baffling claims of the “Polygamy Deniers”—a fringe group, but growing number of Mormon defenders who insist, against overwhelming historical evidence, that Joseph Smith was monogamous. Armed with logic, primary sources, and just the right amount of snark, we dismantle the contorted reasoning and cherry-picked narratives that fuel this historical revisionism.

Why deny what the historical record screams? What tactics do these deniers use to twist facts into faith-promoting fiction? And why does this matter for modern Mormonism? Join us for a wild ride through the land of bad apologetics, historical amnesia, and the desperate need to preserve a prophet’s purity—no matter the cost to truth. This is one you won’t want to miss.

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Evidence Joseph Smith Practiced Polygamy
Part 1 – https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144aaam/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/
Part 2 – https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144ahjo/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/
Part 3 https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144aqlr/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/

The post The Wacky World of Polygamy Deniers appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism & The Charles Anthon Affair** Apr 10, 2025
Mormonism & The Charles Anthon Affair The Strange Meeting That Shaped a Scripture In this episode, we unravel one of the most curious and consequential moments in early Mormon history: the mysterious encounter between Martin Harris and Professor Charles Anthon. Was it a miraculous fulfillment of prophecy… or a carefully staged attempt to lend scholarly credibility to Joseph Smith’s golden plates? We dive into: The origins of the Anthon Transcript and the infamous “Caractors” document Conflicting accounts: Harris’s prophetic tale vs. Anthon’s fraud accusation The strange mix of languages alleged on the Book of Mormon—Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, Arabic—and what they really meant A compelling theory: Did Joseph Smith lift characters from Adam Clarke’s Bible commentary to impress the experts? Join us as we explore the tangled web of faith, deception, and linguistic sleight of hand that helped launch a movement. Was Professor Anthon duped? Did Harris hear what he wanted to hear? And could this whole event have been engineered to fulfill Isaiah’s “sealed book” prophecy? This is Mormonism & The Charles Anthon Affair — and the questions it raises are just as fascinating as the answers. Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency. DONATE VIA DONORBOX! https://donorbox.org/mormonism-live Join our Mailing List – subscribepage.io/MormonDiscussion https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussions-podcasts-full-lineup/id562296100 https://open.spotify.com/show/0lEZJF0ZH6ccoteUP9Z4Fu Instagram: /https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: @mormondiscussion https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Mormon Discussion Merch store https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Mormon Discussions Website – https://mormondiscussions.org/ Contact Bill Reel, RFM, and the Mormon Discussions Team: MormonDiscussionsPodcasts@gmail.com
The post Mormonism & The Charles Anthon Affair appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Cracking The Code: Tracing Book of Mormon Origins** Apr 03, 2025
[Mormonism Live 225] What if one of the most foundational parts of the Book of Mormon wasn’t ancient at all—but lifted from a 19th-century Methodist Bible commentary? In this episode, Mormonism Live dives into what may be the most significant academic finding in Mormon studies in decades: compelling evidence that Joseph Smith used Adam Clarke’s biblical commentary—a massive, scholarly work from the early 1800s—as a source while “translating” Isaiah into the Book of Mormon. Based on Colby Townsend’s stunning new paper, we break down direct textual connections, show how Smith edited Isaiah using Clarke’s scholarly notes, and explore what this means for the Church’s truth claims, the notion of “translation,” and the very origin story of the Book of Mormon. This episode could change the conversation around Joseph Smith’s methods forever. Don’t miss this deep dive into what looks like the scholarly smoking gun behind one of Mormonism’s sacred texts.

RESOURCE:
Colby Townsend’s Paper – https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/jbr-2024-0001/html
Interview with Haley Lemmon Wilson https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/05/haley-lemmon-joseph-smith-translation-revelation-plagiarism

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The post Cracking The Code: Tracing Book of Mormon Origins appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Inside the Closet: How Mormon Conversion Therapy Tried to ‘Fix’ Me** Apr 01, 2025
What happens when your faith tells you that your identity is a flaw to be corrected? In this episode, we sit down with Sam Nieves, a conversion therapy survivor, board member of the Conversion Therapy Survivor Network, and a clinically trained therapist with a background in Cognitive Psychology. Sam takes us deep into his lived experience growing up in Mormonism, where his sexuality and even his skin color were framed through a toxic theology of righteousness. In a LDS/Mormon belief system where “becoming white and delightsome” was once literal doctrine, Sam learned early on to associate purity with whiteness—and straightness. That twisted framework blurred lines in deeply harmful ways, pushing him into the shadows of shame and eventually into conversion therapy. Sam will walk us through the devastating process—how it was initiated, including messaging from MTC leadership, and how it affected his psyche, his sense of self, and his path to healing. This episode doesn’t just expose what goes on behind the closed doors of so-called “conversion therapy”—it empowers vulnerable listeners to recognize red flags and find help. Sam shares insights from both his trauma and his training, offering critical resources and language for anyone caught in similar webs of psychological and spiritual manipulation. Warning: This conversation includes themes of trauma, homophobia, and racial messaging within religious contexts. But it also includes truth, clarity, and hope.
RESOURCES:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/ctsn-exmo-booth-for-utah-pride-2025

The post Inside the Closet: How Mormon Conversion Therapy Tried to ‘Fix’ Me appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Religion Business** Mar 22, 2025
How do U.S. churches take advantage of tax exemptions, and should this be allowed? These and other issues are investigated by filmmaker Nathan Apffel in his upcoming documentary series, “The Religion Business.” And why does Nathan consider the LDS Church to be “the most terrifying” of them all? Join us and find out! [Mormonism Live 223]

**RESOURCES:**

Instagram: @religionbusiness

Filmmaker Exposes ‘The Religion Business’

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/controversial-documentary-sheds-light-on-lack-of-accountability-within-religion-301955128.html

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21070076/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6tDPn5nQ7k

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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussions-podcasts-full-lineup/id562296100

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The post The Religion Business appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Joseph Smith’s Bank of Faith: The Rise and Fall of Mormonism’s Kirtland Safety Society** Mar 13, 2025
[Mormonism Live 222] Faith, Finances, and Fraud? Buckle up, because this episode dives into one of the wildest financial moments in Mormon history! (And that’s saying a lot) What happens when a prophet ventures into banking? In the 1830s, Joseph Smith and other early Mormon leaders launched the Kirtland Safety Society, a financial institution built on faith, community trust, and a vision of economic independence. But within just a year, the bank collapsed, leaving behind lawsuits, financial ruin, and a crisis of leadership that sent shockwaves through the early Church. In this episode, we explore: Why Joseph Smith and his followers believed a church-backed bank was the key to building Zion The economic struggles and high-risk decisions that led to the bank’s rapid downfall The legal challenges and accusations of fraud that forced Joseph Smith to flee Kirtland How this financial collapse tested the faith of early believers and reshaped Mormon history Was the Kirtland Safety Society a bold but doomed experiment? A victim of economic turmoil? Or was something more questionable at play? Join us as we unpack the rise and fall of Mormonism’s most infamous financial venture and the lessons it still holds today. No matter where you stand, this is a story worth hearing.

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The post Joseph Smith’s Bank of Faith: The Rise and Fall of Mormonism’s Kirtland Safety Society appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Latter-day Saint Insider Exposes Secret Surveillance!** Mar 06, 2025
INSIDE THE LDS CHURCH: CONFIDENTIAL RECORDS & THE SCMC EXPOSED! In this bombshell episode, a former Mormon Church employee who worked with confidential records and the Strengthening Church Members Committee (SCMC) comes forward to expose the behind-the-scenes machinations of the LDS Church. From secret surveillance of members to how the Church tracks and manages dissent, to how the Church handles those who ask their names to be removed, this insider reveals shocking details that the Church doesn’t want you to know.

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What really happens behind closed doors?

How does the LDS Church monitor and control members?

What’s in those confidential records?

Does the Strengthening Church Members Committee actually spy on people?

This is one Mormonism Live episode you cannot afford to miss. Share this video, spread the truth, and join us in the comments for a deep dive into the secrets of the LDS Church.

Subscribe & hit the bell so you don’t miss future episodes exposing Mormonism’s hidden truths!

#MormonismLive #LDSChurch #ExMormon #SCMC #MormonSecrets #ChurchSurveillance #StrengtheningChurchMembersCommittee #MormonExposed #LDSConfidentialRecords #MormonLeaks

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**“Goodbye Magic Undies” with Carrie Sweet** Mar 04, 2025
[Mormonism Live 220] Bill Reel and RFM sit down with LDS Author Carrie Sweet to discuss her new book “Goodbye Magic Undies” and the journey that brought her to writing it. Book on Amazon – https://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Magic-Undies-High-Control-Relationships/dp/B0DV7GPKH3/ref=sr_1_1 Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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The post “Goodbye Magic Undies” with Carrie Sweet appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Hate Watch Theatre** Feb 24, 2025
[Mormonism Live 219] Join RFM and Bill Reel in this riff-filled episode of Mormonism Live as they dive into the world of Ward Radio’s recent rhetoric, with special guest “Cultch” from The Cultural Hall Podcast tagging along for the ride. Channeling the playful yet biting tone of Mystery Science Theater 3000, the trio sets up shop in their virtual “theater” and watches as the recent work of Ward Radio rolls in. With a sharp sense of humor and insight, they offer hilarious commentary, deconstructing the often bizarre and troubling language used in the discourse surrounding Mormonism and its critics. Together, they dismantle the rhetoric, shine a light on the underlying messages, and provide their unique take on what’s really being said — all while keeping it light, entertaining, and full of laughs. Get ready for some Mystery Science Theater-style analysis with a Mormon twist, as the trio critiques, mocks, and provides a satirical lens on Ward Radio’s latest antics. Don’t miss out on this witty and insightful episode!

The post Mormon Hate Watch Theatre appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Safeguarding the Saints from The LDS Church** Feb 19, 2025
[Mormonism Live 218] Is the Latter-day Saint community a safe community? We take a look at that very question and investigate what it would mean and what would it look like if the LDS Church took seriously the Safeguarding of the Latter-day Saints. What can Mormonism learn from accepted Safeguarding practices and what is one group doing to raise awareness of here the Church falls short. https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/02/21st-Century-Saints-Info-Pack-Final-Print-Copy-4-1.pdf Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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**TOP SECRET: Mormon UFO Files [ML: 217]** Feb 06, 2025
For almost 2 centuries, whispers of a deep connection between the Mormon Church and UFO phenomena have circulated, but now, shocking new revelations are coming to light. — Investigative journalists, UFO experts, and ex-intelligence officers such as Ross Coulthart, Steven Greer, and David Grusch— have exposed the global UFO cover-up along with the Government’s Alien technology retrieval effort named the “Legacy Program”. Tonight, a recent discovery takes us deep into the connection of the Mormon Church and the Government Alien Coverup. From Joseph Smith’s celestial visions to secretive modern-day involvement in the UFO disclosure movement, could the Mormon Church be more entangled in extraterrestrial affairs than anyone suspected? A recent major discovery has linked Mormonism to the growing fear of an alien invasion—what does it mean, and why is no one talking about it? Prepare to uncover classified connections, ancient prophecies, The super-secret Legacy Program, and the shocking role that Mormonism may be playing in the UFO phenomenon. SURVEY – Did you like this Episode? https://forms.gle/KRnoGRpa4DS11obH8 #mormonismlive #uap #mormon

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**Captain Moroni: The Nephite George Washington [Mormonism Live 216]** Jan 30, 2025
Captain Moroni is one of the most inspiring figures in the Book of Mormon, a true champion of liberty and righteousness. But did you know his story might share surprising parallels with George Washington and the Revolutionary War? In this episode, we explore how Captain Moroni’s unwavering faith, his rallying cry of the Title of Liberty, and his fight for freedom may connect to themes from America’s founding history. Could there be deeper lessons about liberty and divine providence hidden in these connections? You won’t want to miss this thought-provoking discussion that will deepen your appreciation for Joseph Smith’s “Translation” abilities!

RESOURCES:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-stories/chapter-33-king-men-versus-freemen?lang=eng

Kingmen Vs. Freemen

http://www.mormonthink.com/influences.htm

Did George Washington quote Captain Moroni’s “Title of Liberty”?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_(American_Revolution)

Did George Washington quote Captain Moroni’s “Title of Liberty”?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Loyalist+(American+Revolution)

https://www.academia.edu/108282496/Kingmen_vs_Freemen_Oneidas_in_the_Book_of_Mormon

Richard Bushman’s article: The Book of Mormon and the American Revolution https://archive.dev-bookofmormoncentral.org/sites/default/files/archive-files/pdf/bushman/2015-12-03/08_richard_l._bushman_the_book_of_mormon_and_the_american_revolution_1982.pdf

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The post Captain Moroni: The Nephite George Washington [Mormonism Live 216] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon $ecret$ Exposed [Mormonism Live 215]** Jan 23, 2025
MORMON $ECRET$ EXPOSED In this explosive episode of Mormonism Live, RFM and Bill Reel are joined by Professor Spencer Anderson from the Widow’s Mite Report to uncover the financial secrets the LDS Church doesn’t want you to know. Brace yourself as we dive deep into the shadowy corners of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ financial reserve and assets and what we find might shock you!!!!

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The post Mormon $ecret$ Exposed [Mormonism Live 215] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Dive Deep Into The Book of Mormon [Mormonism Live 214]** Jan 22, 2025
The deeper you dive into the Book of Mormon, the more you find. RFM and Bill Reel are joined by Ganesh Cherian to take a deep dive in the Book of Mormon. But beware as these waters are infested with creatures that take big bites out of Book of Mormon historicity. Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency. DONATE VIA DONORBOX! https://donorbox.org/mormonism-live Join our Mailing List – subscribepage.io/MormonDiscussion https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussions-podcasts-full-lineup/id562296100 https://open.spotify.com/show/0lEZJF0ZH6ccoteUP9Z4Fu Instagram: /https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: @mormondiscussion https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Mormon Discussion Merch store https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Mormon Discussions Website – https://mormondiscussions.org/ Contact Bill Reel, RFM, and the Mormon Discussions Team: MormonDiscussionsPodcasts@gmail.com
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**How Joseph Smith Created Mormonism [Mormonism Live 213]** Jan 14, 2025
Want to know how Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon? Well in this episode of Mormonism Live we take at face value what Terryl Givens, one of the LDS Church’s most renowned apologists, says about that very thing.

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The post How Joseph Smith Created Mormonism [Mormonism Live 213] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Top Mormon Stories of 2024 [Mormonism Live 212]** Jan 03, 2025
What were the top LDS and Mormon Stories of 2024? Bill Reel and RFM run us through the year and help you to remember what made the headlines from within the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and from Mormonism generally.

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The post The Top Mormon Stories of 2024 [Mormonism Live 212] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**LDS Church: A Period Of UnLearning? [Mormonism Live 211]** Dec 28, 2024
LDS Faithful Apologist and Scholar Ben Spackman recently stated the LDS Church is in a “PERIOD OF UNLEARNING”. Bill Reel and RFM are joined by guest Nathan Hinckley to discuss what such is entailing and what it could mean for the future. What was Mormonism and what is the LDS Church moving towards? That and more on this week’s Mormonism Live! Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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The post LDS Church: A Period Of UnLearning? [Mormonism Live 211] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Radio Free Mormon Christmas Eve Party [RFM and Mormonism Live XMas Special 2024]** Dec 28, 2024
Join us this Christmas Eve for the Second Annual Radio Free Mormon Christmas Eve Party. RFM and Bill Reel will be joined by over TWENTY celebrities from the Mormon and post-Mormon space, and maybe even a few surprises! Get stocked up on eggnog and gingerbread cookies! Stay up with RFM and watch the stars come out! This is going to be a blast!

The post The Radio Free Mormon Christmas Eve Party [RFM and Mormonism Live XMas Special 2024] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Scholar Excommunication Celebration [Mormonism Live 210]** Dec 14, 2024
Join us as we welcome scholar Brent Metcalfe for the 30th anniversary of his excommunication from the Mormon Church. We cover not only his excommunication but also his famous discovery of the “Mosiah First Priority” in the Book of Mormon translation. Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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Mormonism LIVE: 061: Vogel & Metcalfe In Da HOUSE ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLj2oN76K4c&pp=ygUzTW9ybW9uaXNtIExJVkU6IDA2MTogVm9nZWwgJiBNZXRjYWxmZSBJbiBEYSBIT1VTRSAh

Mormonism LIVE: 070: Critical Scholarship and Book of Abraham Historicity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oECDpGELsds&pp=ygVJTW9ybW9uaXNtIExJVkU6IDA3MDogQ3JpdGljYWwgU2Nob2xhcnNoaXAgYW5kIEJvb2sgb2YgQWJyYWhhbSBIaXN0b3JpY2l0eQ%3D%3D

Brent Metcalfe – Early Years, Mark Hofmann, the Salamander Letter, the Bombings, the Book of Abraham, and Life After Mormonism Ep. 493-494; 497-499 https://www.mormonstories.org/brent-metcalfe-mark-hofmann-salamander-letter-bombings/

Murder Among The Mormons on Netflix https://www.netflix.com/title/81226889

The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Lehi [Mormonism Live 193] https://youtube.com/live/yrJEiaNv

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**Did the LDS Church Support the Nazis? [Mormonism Live 209]** Dec 05, 2024
Was the LDS Church an ally of Adolph Hitler and the Nazis? There has been much said on both sides. So tonight on Mormonism Live we take a look and try to separate what is fact from fiction!!! Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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**Faithful Historian Murders Mormonism [Mormonism Live 208]** Nov 28, 2024
This episode of Mormonism Live has Bill Reel and RFM diving deep into a recent interview between the “Keystone” Podcast & LDS Historian Ben Spackman. And you won’t believe what he has to say about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators who stand at its helm.

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The post Faithful Historian Murders Mormonism [Mormonism Live 208] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Apologetics: Against All Odds [Mormonism Live 207]** Nov 25, 2024
In this weeks episode we discuss How apologists discern between Evidence and Coincidence!

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LICENSE #4986875 ORDER #4122801 DATE 30/08/2023

The post Mormon Apologetics: Against All Odds [Mormonism Live 207] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**How Did Mormons Make Jesus Our Elder Brother? [Mormonism Live 206]** Nov 18, 2024
Gee whiz, folks! Grab your favorite milkshake and settle in as we take a trip down memory lane in this wholesome episode of Mormonism Live! Just like a scene out of Leave it to Beaver, Bill Reel and RFM team up with their ol’ pal Paul Toscano to chat about something that’s got everyone at the church social buzzing: “How did Mormons make Jesus our elder brother?” With Paul Toscano’s unique insights and wit (think Ward Cleaver meets philosophy class), we’ll explore just how this belief came to be. From Sunday School stories to deep theological roots, this lively trio will peel back layers of LDS teachings with a mix of humor and reverence, with a few laughs along the way! So, grab a comfy seat and join us for some “golly-gee” Mormon history and doctrine, with that classic Mormonism Live twist! It’s an episode sure to leave you thinking, laughing, and maybe even scratching your head. See you there!

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The post How Did Mormons Make Jesus Our Elder Brother? [Mormonism Live 206] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Getting Your Own Planet In Mormonism [Mormonism Live 205]** Nov 12, 2024
In this episode of Mormonism Live, Bill Reel and RFM delve into one of Mormonism’s most fascinating—and controversial—teachings: the idea that faithful Latter-day Saints will receive their own planets to rule, create, and populate in the afterlife. From Brigham Young to contemporary apostles, LDS leaders have long hinted at or outright taught this idea as part of the exaltation doctrine. But in recent years, the LDS Church has seemingly distanced itself from this once-prominent belief, with the LDS Newsroom even publishing a definitive “No” to the question of whether members will get their own planet. Bill and RFM juxtapose historical statements by past and present leaders against this modern PR stance, examining what this doctrinal shift might mean for members and the Church’s evolving theology. Join us as we explore questions of eternal progression, exaltation, and the tension between Mormonism’s esoteric past and its current mainstream narrative. Watch, learn, and share your thoughts in the live chat!

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The post Getting Your Own Planet In Mormonism [Mormonism Live 205] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**2024 Halloween Special [Mormonism Live 204]** Oct 31, 2024
Mormonism Live’s 2024 Halloween Special, gives you the fan and follower of Mormonism Live, an opportunity to call in and share with us your favorite Halloween stories. Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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The post 2024 Halloween Special [Mormonism Live 204] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Elder Oaks Deception [Mormonism Live: 203]** Oct 23, 2024
On this week’s episode RFM and Bill Reel take a look at the life & Teachings of Elder Dallin H. Oaks, current member of the First Presidency and help the audience make sense of a life of deception.

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The post The Elder Oaks Deception [Mormonism Live: 203] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism and the Academy [Mormonism Live 202]** Oct 16, 2024
Tonight we welcome a special guest onto the show who goes by the name of Kishkumen. He is a classics professor at a major university in the United States. Kishkumen will share with us his experiences and insights into Mormonism from the perspective of a classics professor, and I expect we will all learn a lot along the way.

The post Mormonism and the Academy [Mormonism Live 202] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Your General Conference Reactions! [Mormonism Live 201]** Oct 10, 2024
This week’s episode of Mormonism Live is your chance to share your LDS General Conference Reactions! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints just held its General Conference and with all that happened, here is your chance to react. The phone lines will be open and it’s your chance to share what was good, what was bad, and what caught your eye!

The post Your General Conference Reactions! [Mormonism Live 201] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Laughing At the Ridiculousness of Mormonism [Mormonism Live 200]** Oct 08, 2024
In this special milestone episode, Radio Free Mormon & Bill Reel celebrate 200 episodes of Mormonism Live with a lighthearted and hilarious look at some of ridiculousness of Mormonism. From strange doctrines and quirky teachings to the cringiest folklore and outrageous church practices, no stone is left unturned as we explore the humorous side of Mormonism. It’s an episode full of humor, satire, and good-natured fun, reminding us all that sometimes the best way to understand the absurdity is to just laugh at it. Tune in for a laugh-filled celebration of the comical aspects of Mormonism!

**RESOURCES:**
https://www.youtube.com/@TheHolyRoast

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The post Laughing At the Ridiculousness of Mormonism [Mormonism Live 200] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Mommy Homemaker [Mormonism Live: 199]** Sep 26, 2024
In this episode of Mormonism Live, Bill Reel is joined by Rebecca Bibliotheca (as we give RFM a night off) and we dive deep into the historical record surrounding LDS leaders’ teachings that a woman’s primary role is to be a stay-at-home mom. They explore how these teachings, often laced with shame, guilt, and warnings of spiritual and temporal consequences for those who deviated, shaped the lives of countless women within the Church. With the LDS Church appearing to soften its stance on this issue in recent years, Bill and Rebecca question whether the Church should be held accountable for the harm caused by these past teachings. They also examine the tension between the Church’s claims of divine inspiration and its frequent revision of doctrines, inviting listeners to consider the implications of such changes on the Church’s credibility.

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The post Mormon Mommy Homemaker [Mormonism Live: 199] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Losing Nemo [Mormonism Live: 198]** Sep 19, 2024
British YouTuber Nemo the Mormon is now facing excommunication. Is this the result of years of challenging the Church, or was it triggered by his recent support for the residents of Fairview, Texas, in their fight against the LDS Church’s push for an excessively tall temple spire? Join RFM and Bill Reel as we sit down with Nemo to explore why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has called him to a disciplinary council.

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The post Losing Nemo [Mormonism Live: 198] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Stories & The Stick of Joseph [Mormonism Live: 197]** Sep 12, 2024
This week on Mormonism Live we take a look at the recent interview between Mormon Stories’ John Dehlin and Jackson and Hayden Paul from the Stick of Joseph YouTube channel. We explore their responses to a critical examination of Mormonism.

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The post Mormon Stories & The Stick of Joseph [Mormonism Live: 197] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Could Nephi Really Build A Ship? [Mormonism Live 196]** Sep 05, 2024
Dr. John Lundwall joins RFM and Bill Reel to break down Scripture Central’s latest Book of Mormon evidence video claiming Lehi and Family COULD build a boat to travel from the Near East to the Americas.

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The post Could Nephi Really Build A Ship? [Mormonism Live 196] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Julie de Azevedo Hanks: Mormonism & Mental Health [Mormonism Live 195]** Sep 04, 2024
Welcome to this special episode of Mormonism Live, where hosts Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon are joined by the renowned therapist, author, and social worker, Julie de Azevedo Hanks. Known for her candid discussions on mental health, relationships, and navigating faith transitions, Julie brings her unique perspective to the complexities of living within Mormon culture. In this episode, we dive deep into the intersection of faith and psychology, explore the challenges of maintaining authenticity in a religious community, and discuss the importance of mental health awareness in the LDS Church. Whether you’re on your own faith journey or interested in the evolving dynamics of Mormonism, this conversation promises to be enlightening and thought-provoking. Don’t miss it! Julie de Azevedo Hanks is an award-winning singer and songwriter, licensed therapist, author, speaker, and consultant. She also blogs on women’s emotional health, self-care, and relationships and contributes regularly to social media, radio, and other media. She is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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The post Julie de Azevedo Hanks: Mormonism & Mental Health [Mormonism Live 195] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Peter Vidmar & The Olympic Sex Scandal [Mormonism Live 194]** Aug 22, 2024
In this week’s episode of Mormonism Live, we delve into the controversial and shocking allegations surrounding sex abuse within the U.S. Olympic gymnastics team, focusing on the involvement of Peter Vidmar, a devout Mormon, and former Olympic Gold Medalist. Vidmar, who has been twice inducted into the Olympic Hall of Fame, once for his individual achievements and once as part of a team, also served as the Chairman of the U.S. Gymnastics Board of Directors during a turbulent time for the sport. Our special guest, Dr. Randall Bell joins us to share his unique insights into this scandal. Dr. Bell, known for his work in disaster recovery and trauma, will explore the complex intersections of Vidmar’s faith as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, his role in the gymnastics community, and the broader implications of the abuse scandal on the sport. Together, we will uncover the layers of this disturbing story, examining how power, religion, and institutional failures contributed to one of the darkest chapters in Olympic history. Don’t miss this eye-opening episode as we seek to understand the lasting impact on the victims, the sport, and the LDS community.
=======================================================
Randall Bell’s notable cases include: Nicole Brown Simpson’s Los Angeles condominium, the mansion where 39 Heaven’s Gate members died of suicide, the JonBenét Ramsey house in Colorado, the World Trade Center site, and properties damaged in the Rodney King riots and by Hurricane Katrina.

Randall Bell Wiki page – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Bell

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The post Peter Vidmar & The Olympic Sex Scandal [Mormonism Live 194] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Lehi [Mormonism Live 193]** Aug 16, 2024
In this episode of Mormonism Live, hosts Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon dive deep into one of the most impactful events in Mormon history—the loss of the 116 pages of the Book of Lehi. These pages, the first part of the Book of Mormon, were said to be translated by Joseph Smith through divine means, under the guidance of the angel Moroni. However, when they were lost, it set off a chain of events that would forever shape the narrative of the Latter-day Saints. Bill and RFM explore this pivotal incident, asking crucial questions about what the loss of these pages reveals about the mindset and motives of Mormonism’s founder, Joseph Smith. Was it a simple mishap, or does this event expose deeper layers of intention and strategy? By viewing the lost 116 pages through the lens of Smith’s perspective, the hosts argue that everything begins to fall into place, shedding new light on the origins and early days of the Mormon faith. Join us for an in-depth analysis that challenges the traditional narrative and offers fresh insights into one of the most significant episodes in Latter-day Saint history.

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The post The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Lehi [Mormonism Live 193] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**False Mormon Prophecies [Mormonism Live 192]** Aug 08, 2024
From its inception, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has claimed to have prophets. But when those prophets have predicted the future, the results have been mixed, to say the least. The prophecies that did not come to pass are not talked about by the LDS Church. But we will talk about them tonight at Mormonism Live. Featuring Master Peace as our special guest.

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The post False Mormon Prophecies [Mormonism Live 192] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Callers Control the Show [Mormonism Live 191)** Aug 07, 2024
Professor John Lundwall shares his personal story on how it was he came to leave Mormonism. Latter-day Saints and Mormons of all kinds won’t want to miss this story. Disclaimer: The content of this video contains discussions about child molestation and child abuse. These are sensitive and potentially triggering topics. Viewer discretion is advised. This video is not intended for children or those who may find the content distressing. Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency. DONATE VIA DONORBOX! https://mormonismlive.org/Donate-To-Mormonism-Live/ Join our Mailing List – subscribepage.io/MormonDiscussion https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussions-podcasts-full-lineup/id562296100 https://open.spotify.com/show/0lEZJF0ZH6ccoteUP9Z4Fu Instagram: /https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: @mormondiscussion https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Mormon Discussion Merch store https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Mormon Discussions Website – https://mormondiscussions.org/ Contact Bill Reel, RFM, and the Mormon Discussions Team:MormonDiscussionsPodcasts@gmail.com
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**Joseph Smith’s Seer Stones [Mormonism Live 190]** Jul 25, 2024
In this episode we explore what we know about each of the Seer Stones that Joseph Smith used or had in his possession. We also explore other known seer stones within Mormonism. And as usual we have a few surprises and a likely bombshell in regards to the history that almost none of you knew!

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The post Joseph Smith’s Seer Stones [Mormonism Live 190] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Dating Fanny Alger [Mormonism Live 189]** Jul 18, 2024
Join hosts Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel on this captivating episode of “Mormonism Live,” where the tantalizing title “Dating Fanny Alger” sets the stage for an exploration of one of the most controversial relationships in Mormon history. This week, our esteemed guests Don Bradley, Cheryl Bruno, and Chris Smith delve into the detailed research aimed at determining the precise calendar date of Joseph Smith’s relationship with Fanny Alger. While the title might initially evoke the image of a romantic outing between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger, our discussion promises much more than a playful tease. We dive deep into historical records, piecing together evidence to shed light on the timeline of their relationship. Our experts will guide us through the complexities of early Mormon history, revealing the broader implications and the controversy that has surrounded this period for over a century. From examining contemporary accounts to analyzing historical documents, this episode promises to be an enlightening journey into the past. Tune in to “Dating Fanny Alger” on “Mormonism Live” – where we uncover the truth behind the title and explore the intricate details of one of Mormonism’s most intriguing stories.

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**The Fake Mormon Race Apology w/ Jon Streeter [Mormonism Live 188]** Jul 11, 2024
We sit down with Jon Streeter to revisit his “Race Apology” in 2018. The apology had the appearance of being officially from the Church even though it wasn’t and Streeter took a lot of criticism for the fake apology. Now 6 years later Streeter sits down to explain his thoughts both then and now and to discuss various aspects of the project and its aftermath

Streeter’s Fake Apology – https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/the-pasquinade-apology-on-mormon-racism/

Video of AI (not real) President Nelson giving Streeter’s “Fake Apology” – https://youtu.be/TtImO6fLFKE

Streeter’s Apology for the fake Apology – https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/the-pasquinade-apology-on-mormon-racism/

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The post The Fake Mormon Race Apology w/ Jon Streeter [Mormonism Live 188] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Jacob Hansen’s Thinking Errors [Mormonism Live 187]** Jul 04, 2024
Kolby Reddish joins RFM and Bill Reel to take a deeper look at the Flawed Epistemology and the problem of inconsistent “revelation” by examining the flawed thinking of Jacob Hansen Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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The post Jacob Hansen’s Thinking Errors [Mormonism Live 187] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Who Factually Saw the Gold Plates? Part Deux: A Marvelous Work And A Blunder [ML 186]** Jun 27, 2024
This is Part 2 of our dive into Episode 5 of A Marvelous Work, investigating the claims of “Book of Mormon Central” around the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Told through the commentary of Radio Free Mormon, Bill Reel, and guest host Dan Vogel, we use our spiritual eyes to examine the facts of the claims!

Book of Mormon Central part 5 of A Marvelous Work – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcOk5aodNJs

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The post Who Factually Saw the Gold Plates? Part Deux: A Marvelous Work And A Blunder [ML 186] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Who Factually Saw the Gold Plates? A Marvelous Work And A Blunder [ML 185]** Jun 20, 2024
We dive into Episode 5 of A Marvelous Work, investigating the claims of “Book of Mormon Central” around the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Told through the commentary of Radio Free Mormon, Bill Reel, and guest host Dan Vogel this one is bound to better than a vision performed via Second Sight.

Book of Mormon Central part 5 of A Marvelous Work – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcOk5aodNJs

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The post Who Factually Saw the Gold Plates? A Marvelous Work And A Blunder [ML 185] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Book of Mormon Anachronisms & John Clark [Mormonism Live: 184]** Jun 13, 2024
LDS Apologist John Clark has spent considerable time on Book of Mormon Anachronisms both showing the number of them in the past that existed and then suggesting that many over time have been reconciled and pointed to such as evidence that the Book of Mormon is in fact historical. But what do we find when Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel and guest host Rebecca Bibliotheca take a deeper look at Book of Mormon Anachronisms.

Chapters
3:00 Hill Cumorah a “Clean Hill”
11:00 BOM Claims Video
16:00 1842 Claims
23:50 “Bat Creek” Stone
31:15 Why use the 1842 claims?
42:00 Status of BOM Claims in 2005
59:00 Two Rivers 1:05:00 Swords
1:13:30 Human Sacrifice
1:12:45 Wild Beasts
1:19:00 Status of BOM Claims in 2023
1:26:50 The dumb ass
1:48:00 Bonus: The Smithsonian Letter
1:58:00 Reverse Anachronisms

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The post Book of Mormon Anachronisms & John Clark [Mormonism Live: 184] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The 1823 Detroit Manuscript [Mormonism Live 183]** Jun 06, 2024
Today we take a fun trip into a cool connection to Mormonism. The 1823 Detroit Manuscript and its connection to the Anthon Transcript.

RESOURCES:
http://www.mormonthink.com/backup/detroitmanuscriptstudy.pdf
https://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga/saga02b.htm
http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/MI/miscmich.htm#030723

Why was the Book of Mormon Written in Ancient Irish?

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The post The 1823 Detroit Manuscript [Mormonism Live 183] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Draining The Swamp of Mormon Apologetics [Mormonism Live 182]** May 30, 2024
In this week’s episode we take a look at the methodology of Mormon Apologists focusing on Ward Radio and Jacob Hanson. All sides claim the other is deceiving and misleading. But one side is adding context and clarity while the other enjoys their audience working with a limited understanding.

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The post Draining The Swamp of Mormon Apologetics [Mormonism Live 182] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Shawn McCraney: Full Circle Defending Mormons [Mormonism Live 181]** May 23, 2024
This week we sit down with Shawn McCraney who once was a Mormon himself and after leaving has for decades been a vocal critic of Mormonism and the LDS Church. We take a look at Shawn’s life journey and his recent acknowledgement of coming full circle.

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Chapters

00:00 Welcome

10:00 Clip

19:15 Is he Universalist?

27:00 Why not trust others’ stories?

35:00 Metaphysical experience

42:00 Post-millenialism

46:00 Scriptural evidence for Jesus returning before 70AD?

47:00 The “bride” of Jesus a bunch of Jews

52:00 The “beast” isn’t Nero?

54:00 “This Generation”

55:15 So what about today then?

01:02:00 Faith & works(love?)

01:03:45 The alternative to offer the fans.

01:07:25 In/errant Bible?

01:10:45 Ralph Waldo Emerson

01:18:00 Never-denominational

01:20:00 Caller: Kolby

01:23:00 How is your epistemology more than “I just know”

01:26:25 Bill leaving made him better

01:30:45 Caller: Ted

01:40:00 Caller: Jared

The post Shawn McCraney: Full Circle Defending Mormons [Mormonism Live 181] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**LDS Church’s Stock Portfolio Under Scrutiny AGAIN [Mormonism Live 180]** May 16, 2024
Get set for EXPLOSIVE News on Mormonism Live as our dynamic duo RFM and Bill Reel are back in action, ready to unravel the jaw-dropping saga surrounding the Mormon Church and its investment arm Ensign Peak. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints faces NEW allegations around the LDS Church’s stock portfolio. With cloak-and-dagger tactics, hidden shell companies, and whispers of Villainous rule-breaking, this podcast promises a wild ride through the intersection of Prophets & Profits. Don’t miss a moment of the pulse-pounding excitement in “LDS Church’s Stock Portfolio Under Scrutiny,” exclusively on “Mormonism Live”!

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The post LDS Church’s Stock Portfolio Under Scrutiny AGAIN [Mormonism Live 180] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Denying Joseph Smith’s Polygamy Part 2 [Mormon Discussion 393]** May 13, 2024
In Part 2 of “Denying Joseph Smith’s Polygamy,” we continue on a compelling journey through conflicting narratives surrounding the origins of polygamy in Mormonism. Through the Research of Clark Aboud and the Historian’s lens of renowned Mormon Scholar Dan Vogel, we confront the contentious question: Did Joseph Smith truly introduce polygamy, or was Brigham Young the mastermind behind its inception? Delve into the evidence and engage in the debate as we present the historical documentation and the perspective of both sides. Part 2 of 3 Thanks so much for watching! Please like, subscribe, and leave a comment! Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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Our mission at Mormon Discussion is to be a beacon of support for those who are questioning the truth claims or renegotiating their relationship with faith. Our podcasts like “Mormonism Live,” “Radio Free Mormon,” and “Mormon Discussion” offer a safe space for Discovery and healing. But we need your help. Your donations power our work – expanding outreach, improving content, and creating new initiatives.

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The post Denying Joseph Smith’s Polygamy Part 2 [Mormon Discussion 393] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Making Mormonism Indiscernible From a Fraud [Mormonism Live 179]** May 09, 2024
The LDS Church and Mormon Apologists have a common tactic where by they take a problem the critic points out, and they alter the Church’s position so as to make the faithful position indiscernible From a Fraud. And tonight on Mormonism Live, we are going to lay out approximately 20 examples of instances where this very act occurred and once you see it, you will never see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the same again.

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The post Making Mormonism Indiscernible From a Fraud [Mormonism Live 179] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Denying Joseph Smith’s Polygamy: Historical Analysis of the Evidence Part 1 [Mormon Discussion 392]** May 06, 2024
In “Denying Joseph Smith’s Polygamy,” we embark on a compelling journey through conflicting narratives surrounding the origins of polygamy in Mormonism. Through the Research of Clark Aboud and the Historian’s lens of renowned Mormon Scholar Dan Vogel, we confront the contentious question: Did Joseph Smith truly introduce polygamy, or was Brigham Young the mastermind behind its inception? Delve into the evidence and engage in the debate as we present the historical documentation and the perspective of both sides.

Thanks so much for watching! Please like, subscribe, and leave a comment!

Help support Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon in making informative entertaining content that shines a light on truth and leads with transparency.

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The post Denying Joseph Smith’s Polygamy: Historical Analysis of the Evidence Part 1 [Mormon Discussion 392] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**A Marvelous Work & A Blunder Part III [Mormonism Live 178]** May 02, 2024
Scott Christopher and Book of Mormon Central are up to bad apologetics once again misrepresenting to the audience proposed evidences of the Book of Mormon. They return to Chiasmus for the second time and speak at length about stylometry proposing those as evidences for the Book of Mormon. But what happens when these evidences are examined and explored more objectively? We are about to find out!!!

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The post A Marvelous Work & A Blunder Part III [Mormonism Live 178] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**An Exciting New Theory On Book Of Mormon Origins [Mormonism Live: 177]** Apr 25, 2024
This week we sit down with Lars Nielsen and take a look at his new theory on Book of Mormon Origins

How The Book of Mormon Came to Pass: The Second Greatest Show on Earth – https://www.amazon.com/How-Book-Mormon-Came-Pass-ebook/dp/B0CZSZ1HJ3

https://www.howthebookofmormoncametopass.com/

The post An Exciting New Theory On Book Of Mormon Origins [Mormonism Live: 177] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Early Mormon Allegations Of Impropriety [Mormonism Live 176]** Apr 22, 2024
On this week’s episode we take a look at the historical stories that point to sexual impropriety of Joseph Smith and several other early key leaders in the faith that aren’t traditionally talked about. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Martin Harris all come up in the episode and Bill & RFM weigh in on the merit of these rumors.

Chapters
04:00 Josiah Stowell’s Daughters
07:15 Eliza Winters
13:30 Nancy Mirinda Johnson (Hyde)
23:45 Miss Hill
30:25 Fanny Alger
38:55 Martin Harris & Mrs. Haggard
45:15 Augusta Adams Cobb
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Early Mormon Allegations Of Impropriety [Mormonism Live 176] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Ancient Gold Plates: What Do They Tell Us About Mormonism’s Gold Plates [Mormonism Live: 175]** Apr 11, 2024
Over the last few weeks a discovery has been making waves in the Mormon World. Gold plates bound by rings with ancient Israelite writing on them. Sound familiar? And YouTube Channels like Ward Radio, David Alexander, and The Stick of Joseph have touted these as evidence for the Book of Mormon. But as soon as they started making noise you begin to hear whispers of “fake”. Tonight we look at the plates, their provenance, and what they mean for Mormonism and its Gold Plates story. John Lundwall and Rebecca Bibliotecha join us and we even get the thoughts of Dan McClellan as we sort out not only what to believe and what to doubt but rather even if these are real, what do they mean or maybe more importantly what they absolutely don’t convey.
00:00 Intro – the Saudi Plates
06:45 Mormon podcast response
20:30 Dan McClellan’s biggest takeaway
33:00 Sermons of the day
41:50 Other gold/metal plates
1:05:25 Scripture Central clip
1:08:05 Even if it’s fake, it’s proof!

RESOURCES:
Original Video – https://youtu.be/DlzwDcsWw04?si=7deZOu4wcpQMpy2g

The post Ancient Gold Plates: What Do They Tell Us About Mormonism’s Gold Plates [Mormonism Live: 175] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**A Rabbi’s Take on Book of Mormon Central | Joe Charnes [Mormonism Live: 174]** Apr 04, 2024
Recently Mormonism Live has examined the proposed evidences of the Book of Mormon presented by Book of Mormon Central in their series “A Marvelous Work: How Great the Evidence”. One facet of that has been to tackle their use of Jewish Rabbi Joe Charnes. Rabbi Joe was kind enough to reach out to us and ask to have a chance to correct some misconceptions both about how we addressed his segment as well as how he was utilized on Book of Mormon Central’s Video and joins us to correct the record and to speak to his view of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

The post A Rabbi’s Take on Book of Mormon Central | Joe Charnes [Mormonism Live: 174] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**LDS Church Financial Apologetics w/ Spencer Anderson [Mormonism Live: 173]** Mar 28, 2024
On this week’s program we take a look at the Faith matters Podcast with Aaron Miller where they answer the 100 Billion Dollar Question. But do their answers hold up? We sit down with Spencer Anderson to get his perspective on whether these Financial Apologetics hold water or if Miller is just blowing smoke.

RESOURCES:

The $100 Billion Question — A Conversation with Aaron Miller

The post LDS Church Financial Apologetics w/ Spencer Anderson [Mormonism Live: 173] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Who Is Mormon Convert David Alexander [Mormonism Live 172]** Mar 21, 2024
Recent LDS Convert David Alexander has been making waves sharing his conversion and testimony everywhere. David claims to have been an Evangelical Pastor and having spent 47 years in Evangelical Christianity before being converted to Mormonism only a few months ago. But what happens when Bill Reel and RFM go digging into David’s background? Where did David spend those 47 years? What was he doing during that time? And who is David Derush… This ain’t your standard gathering the 12 Tribes in Israel lesson in Sunday School… But something has been gathered and you won’t want to miss out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_iX_JCTzSw&t=326s&pp=ygUJMTIgdHJpYmVz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU4RnpABLaA&pp=ygUJMTIgdHJpYmVz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj9Nj8KbcdI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_iX_JCTzSw&t=100s

https://culteducation.com/group/1198-twelve-tribes-messianic-communities/20686-children-and-the-cult-.html

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-valley-center-twelve-tribes-christian-community-2009oct04-story.html

https://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood-exposed/twelve-tribes/index.htm

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2005/nov/03/twelve-tribes-community-vista/

https://twelvetribes.org/publications#

https://twelvetribes.org/publication/why-she-didnt-fly-jesus-movement-70s-part-1

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/03/itac_why_she_didnt_fly_part2-1.pdf

The post Who Is Mormon Convert David Alexander [Mormonism Live 172] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Hebrew Evidence for The Book of Mormon | A Marvelous Work & A Blunder | Part 2 [Mormonism Live 171]** Mar 14, 2024
In this episode of “Mormonism Live,” hosts Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel dissect the claims made in the YouTube video titled “Hebrew Evidence for The Book of Mormon | A Marvelous Work | Episode 2” by Scott Christopher and “Book of Mormon Central.” The original video purports to uncover Hebrew evidences for the Book of Mormon, presenting them as compelling proof of its divine origin.

Chapters:
04:00 Rabbi Joe Charnes’
take on Jacob 5
19:30 Don Perry – Hebraisms
52:30 Olive Horticulture
1:25:00 Moroni’s Promise
1:39:00 Callers
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/Donate-To-Mormonism-Live/?default_interval=m

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https://archive.org/details/latewarbetweenun00inhunt/page/n5/mode/2up?q=%22came+to+pass%22

https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=41&q=rabbi+joe+charnes&cvid=9f4ad3d573c643cd8f7961019d10d43f&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggBEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg5MgYIARBFGDsyBggCEEUYOzIGCAMQABhAMgYIBBAuGEAyBggFEC4YQDIGCAYQLhhAMgYIBxAAGEAyBggIEEUYPNIBCDM4NDNqMGoxqAIAsAIA&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=NMTS

https://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom/zenos.shtml

Jacob 5: Why vineyards and olives?

The post Hebrew Evidence for The Book of Mormon | A Marvelous Work & A Blunder | Part 2 [Mormonism Live 171] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Rigdon Spalding Theory: Final Analysis [Mormonism Live 170]** Mar 07, 2024
In the “Rigdon-Spalding Theory: Final Analysis,” Bill Reel and RFM delve into the conclusive examination of the theory, welcoming historians and experts Dan Vogel and Bryce Blankenagel. Together, they provide valuable insights, critique, and a comprehensive perspective on the historical aspects surrounding the Rigdon-Spalding theory. The episode serves as a culmination of their exploration, offering a nuanced and expert-driven assessment of the theory and its implications on the founding of Mormonism.

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The post Rigdon Spalding Theory: Final Analysis [Mormonism Live 170] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**How The Mormon Church Protects Child Abusers [Mormonism Live 169]** Feb 29, 2024
How The Mormon Church Protects Child Abusers [Mormonism Live 169] Join RFM and Bill Reel on this compelling episode of Mormonism LIVE as they delve into a critical and sensitive topic – “How The Mormon Church Protects Child Abusers.” Our special guest, non-Mormon lawyer Tim Kosnoff, shares his firsthand experiences dealing with Kirton & McConkie and other legal representation of the LDS Church, shedding light on their practices that may seem counterintuitive when it comes to protecting victims.

In this episode: Tim Kosnoff’s Eye-Opening Insights: Tim, a seasoned lawyer, provides a unique perspective on the actions of Kirton & McConkie, revealing instances where their decisions seem to prioritize protecting the Church and abusers over the well-being of victims.

Unpacking Legal Strategies: Dive deep into the legal intricacies as Tim breaks down specific cases and instances where the actions of Kirton & McConkie may raise eyebrows, suggesting a pattern of behavior that goes against the interests of survivors.

Protecting the Institution or the Victims? Explore the dissonance between the purported goal of protecting victims and the observed practices that might be shielding abusers. Tim shares anecdotes and experiences that paint a vivid picture of the challenges survivors face within the Mormon Church’s legal framework.

Our Guest – Tim Kosnoff: Tim Kosnoff co-represents 17,000 clients in the Boy Scouts of America Chapter 11 bankruptcy. He has practiced law for forty years as a prosecutor, defense attorney and as a lawyer representing victims of child sexual abuse. He has extensive experience handling complex civil child sexual abuse litigation throughout the United States and Canada. He has handled thousands of complex child sexual abuse cases against religious and secular organizations including the Boy Scouts of America, the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church and a wide spectrum of other organizations. Tim has recovered more than $500 million dollars in settlements and jury verdicts.

Join the Conversation: We encourage respectful and thoughtful discussions in the live chat as we navigate this complex and crucial topic. Share your thoughts, questions, and perspectives, and let’s engage in a meaningful conversation about accountability, justice, and the role of institutions in protecting vulnerable individuals.

Disclaimer: This episode aims to foster awareness and open dialogue on a serious subject. Viewer discretion is advised as we discuss sensitive content related to child abuse within the context of the Mormon Church.

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Join us for a thought-provoking and informative episode that seeks to shine a light on the complexities surrounding child abuse within the Mormon Church. Let’s stand together in advocating for justice and compassion for survivors.

#MormonismLIVE #ChildAbuseAwareness #TimKosnoff #KirtonMcConkie #SurvivorSupport

The post How The Mormon Church Protects Child Abusers [Mormonism Live 169] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**LDS Abuser’s Family Speaks Out! [Mormonism Live 168]** Feb 22, 2024
LDS Abuser’s Family Speaks Out! In this bombshell interview on “Mormonism Live,” the family of Shawn Cory Gooden, an LDS (Mormon) bishop charged with child abuse, shares their side of the story. This exclusive conversation will test the claims made by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) regarding Stake President Rhett Hintze’s involvement. The ordeal began with the arrest of Bishop Shawn Cory Gooden, who is facing charges related to child abuse. The legal proceedings shed light on the actions of Stake President Rhett Hintze, and his alleged failure to report the abuse, as charged by Pennsylvania State Police The LDS Church responded to the charges against Stake President Hintze, calling them “misguided,” according to the Deseret News’ coverage. The controversial case has garnered attention and raised questions about the Church’s handling of allegations of child abuse within its ranks. As the Pennsylvania Harrisburg Stake grapples with the shocking revelations, the interview on “Mormonism Live” offers a platform for the Gooden family to present their perspective on the events, providing a counter-narrative to the statements made by the LDS Church. Listeners can expect an in-depth exploration of the intricate details surrounding the case, shedding light on the complexities of the situation and the family’s journey through this challenging time.

The post LDS Abuser’s Family Speaks Out! [Mormonism Live 168] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormons vs Ex-Mormons [Mormonism Live: 167]** Feb 15, 2024
We review the recent Jubilee video discussion that had Mormons and Ex-Mormons sitting down to discuss differences. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Run1f29po8g&t Thanks so much for watching! Please like, subscribe, and leave a comment! Visit our Channel to find everything Mormonism! https://www.youtube.com/c/MormonDiscussionsInc or @MormonDiscussion Our mission at Mormon Discussion is to be a beacon of support for those who are questioning the truth claims or renegotiating their relationship with faith. Our podcasts like “Mormonism Live,” “Radio Free Mormon,” and “Mormon Discussion” offer a safe space for Discovery and healing. But we need your help. Your donations power our work – expanding outreach, improving content, and creating new initiatives. Visit https://donorbox.org/umbrella-entity or https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/please-consider-donating-today/ and make a difference today. Your support empowers us to empower others. We are a 501C3 Non-Profit and your donation is tax deductable inside the United States https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/please-consider-donating-today/ Thank you for being part of the change. Together, we’re making a real impact.

The post Mormons vs Ex-Mormons [Mormonism Live: 167] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Examining The Rigdon – Spalding Theory Part 2 [Mormonism LIVE 166]** Feb 08, 2024
In Examining the Rigdon Spalding theory, hosts Bill Reel and RFM embark on a journey beyond the familiar narrative of golden plates and angels. Delving into the Rigdon Spalding theory, they navigate the murky waters of historical documents and eyewitness accounts to present a compelling case for its consideration. By carefully laying out the best evidence, the hosts encourage listeners to critically engage with the possibility that the Book of Mormon may have origins rooted in Rigdon and Spalding’s collaboration. Join them on a quest for understanding that challenges established narratives and prompts a reevaluation of Mormon history.

Part 1: https://youtube.com/live/kxm9pbLOwaQ Chapters: 00:00

Intro & Re-cap 01:05:00
4. Book of Mormon and “Manuscript Found” had significant overlap
01:16:00 The Jocker Study
01:23:30 5. Credibility Issues with Sidney Rigdon
01:35:00 Criticisms
1:53:30 Caller

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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

https://archive.org/details/whoreallywrotebo0000cowd/page/8/mode/2up
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/PA/penn1860.htm#020679
https://medium.com/@mormonhistoryuncut/the-spaulding-rigdon-thoery-466db17ac50c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spalding%E2%80%93Rigdon_theory_of_Book_of_Mormon_authorship

http://www.mormonthink.com/mormonstudiesmatilda.htm
http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/JWhitmer-history.html

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Philadelphia_Album_and_Ladies_Litera/VVNTHPSIhj8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=rangdon http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY/courier.htm
https://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga/saga02a.htm
http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/whig1839.htm#rigdon
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1616&context=msr
https://www.solomonspalding.com/docs2/Dav1977c.htm
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA/natruths.htm#040088-1d2
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/UT/tribune2.htm#041588

Spaulding-Rigdon Timeline

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm
http://www.mormonthink.com/mormonstudiesrigdon.htm#26january
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/MO/sain1922.htm

Debunking the Spaulding Theory

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V01N04_17s.pdf
http://exmormonfoundation.org/files/ExmoConfTalkCriddle.pdf
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/PA/penn1810.htm#070916
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1old.htm#25
https://archive.org/details/addresstoallbeli00whit/page/n7/mode/2up?q=rigdon&view=theater
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1616&context=msr
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/Dan-Vogel-Problems-with-Rigdon-Spalding-Theory.pdf
http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

The post Examining The Rigdon – Spalding Theory Part 2 [Mormonism LIVE 166] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Examining The Rigdon – Spalding Theory Part 1 | Mormonism LIVE 165** Feb 01, 2024
Examining The Rigdon – Spalding Theory [Mormonism LIVE: 165] In “Examining The Rigdon Spalding Theory,” hosts Bill Reel and RFM embark on a journey beyond the familiar narrative of golden plates and angels. Delving into the Rigdon Spalding theory, they navigate the murky waters of historical documents and eyewitness accounts to present a compelling case for its consideration. By carefully laying out the best evidence, the hosts encourage listeners to critically engage with the possibility that the Book of Mormon may have origins rooted in Rigdon and Spalding’s collaboration. Join them on a quest for understanding that challenges established narratives and prompts a reevaluation of Mormon history. Chapters 00:00 Welcome & Intro 06:00 Quick Synopsis 11:00 Lines of Evidence 13:40 1: Rigdon in Pittsburg 01:07:00 2: Rigdon in possession of Spalding’s Manuscript 01:19:00 3. Rigdon & Smith met before 1831 1:58:00 Callers For next time: 3. Finish section 3 by discussing where God seems to include Rigdon in Mormon Scripture 4. Significant Overlap between manuscripts 5. Rigdon’s credibility issues discussed
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
**RESOURCES:**
https://archive.org/details/whoreallywrotebo0000cowd/page/8/mode/2up http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/PA/penn1860.htm#020679 https://medium.com/@mormonhistoryuncut/the-spaulding-rigdon-thoery-466db17ac50c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spalding%E2%80%93Rigdon_theory_of_Book_of_Mormon_authorship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5wMkPI930U&list=PL1F7D837E67152083 http://www.mormonthink.com/mormonstudiesmatilda.htm http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/JWhitmer-history.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO1HioblztA https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Philadelphia_Album_and_Ladies_Litera/VVNTHPSIhj8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=rangdon http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY/courier.htm https://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga/saga02a.htm http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/whig1839.htm#rigdon https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1616&context=msr https://www.solomonspalding.com/docs2/Dav1977c.htm http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA/natruths.htm#040088-1d2 http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/UT/tribune2.htm#041588 https://exploringmormonism.com/spaulding-rigdon-timeline/ http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm http://www.mormonthink.com/mormonstudiesrigdon.htm#26january http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/MO/sain1922.htm https://www.mormonmatters.org/debunking-the-spaulding-theory/ https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V01N04_17s.pdf http://exmormonfoundation.org/files/ExmoConfTalkCriddle.pdf http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/PA/penn1810.htm#070916 http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1old.htm#25 https://archive.org/details/addresstoallbeli00whit/page/n7/mode/2up?q=rigdon&view=theater https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1616&context=msr https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/Dan-Vogel-Problems-with-Rigdon-Spalding-Theory.pdf http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

The post Examining The Rigdon – Spalding Theory Part 1 | Mormonism LIVE 165 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**“A Marvelous Work And A Blunder” [Mormonism Live: 164]** Jan 25, 2024
Do We discover compelling evidence for the Book of Mormon? In this week’s “Mormonism Live,” hosts Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel, with guest John Lundwall, critically analyze the YouTube video “A Marvelous Work – The Greatness of the Evidence” by Scott Christopher and “Book of Mormon Central.” Claiming compelling evidence for the Book of Mormon’s divinity, the hosts uncover issues, scrutinizing methodology and highlighting counter-evidence. They explore complexities, aiming for a balanced perspective, fostering a thought-provoking dialogue that challenges assumptions in the original video. “Mormonism Live” serves as a concise resource for re-evaluating perspectives on the Book of Mormon. Do We discover compelling evidence for the Book of Mormon? No Instead we discover deeply deceptive apologists, false experts, and a complete misuse of data and discoveries. Info on John’s Tour here: https://adeptexpeditions.com/tours/lost-cities-maya-tour-yucatan/ Email John for a discount at: KNIGHTJL7@msn.com RESOURCES: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/swnqxq9dwnne4pcy9by5r/2008_Sana_National_Museum_Part_III_Col.pdf?rlkey=nkrfiuho5po5n607bj3rj0itz&dl=0 https://meridian.allenpress.com/tjs/article/74/1/Article%205/487323/POST-PLEISTOCENE-HORSES-EQUUS-FROM-MEXICO
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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The post “A Marvelous Work And A Blunder” [Mormonism Live: 164] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Think Celestial – Celestial Marriage in Mormonism Before 1890** Jan 18, 2024
In this episode of “Think Celestial – Celestial Marriage Before 1890” we embark on a journey through the annals of Mormon history to unravel the definition of Celestial Marriage as well as “The New and Everlasting Covenant” before the pivotal year of 1890 when Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto marking the beginning steps of ending polygamy. Join our hosts Bill Reel and RFM as they meticulously examine historical documents and quotes from early leaders, shedding light on the evolution of Mormon theology within the LDS Church. Delving into the depths of polygamy and plural marriage, we explore how “Celestial Marriage” & “The New and Everlasting Covenant” were distinctly defined in the early days of Mormonism. Through the lens of primary sources and firsthand accounts, our hosts navigate the changing landscapes of doctrine, uncovering a fascinating contrast between the historical understanding and the modern interpretation of Celestial Marriage. As the hosts dissect archival materials, listeners gain insight into the complexities, controversies, and transformations that shaped the concept of eternal marriage in the early years of the LDS Church. “Think Celestial” invites you to reconsider preconceptions and delve into the rich historical context surrounding Celestial Marriage, bridging the gap between past and present perceptions. Join us in this exploration of Mormonism’s journey, where the celestial union took on different meanings, offering a thought-provoking glimpse into the foundations that have shaped the modern LDS understanding of eternal marriage. pn3kXEypCRk9cbIKEs9P

RESOURCES:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Seer/Volume1/No1/Celestial_Marriage?oldid=398146

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_13/Celestial_Marriage_%28Cannon%29?oldid=469449

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=%2FNCMP1847-1877&CISOPTR=2928&filename=892111612102005_iac42_1_031210_125758.pdf Celestial Marriage, by Orson Pratt (Journal of Discourses 1:53-66) (mrm.org)

https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/uip/dial/article-pdf/44/4/43/1960452/dialjmormthou.44.4.0043.pdf

https://archive.org/details/discoursesoncele00prat/mode/2up?view=theater

https://archive.org/details/discoursesoncele00prat/mode/2up?view=theater (three early leaders all in one) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage#CITEREFPratt1869

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_13/Celestial_Marriage_%28Pratt%29?oldid=469442

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_13/Celestial_Marriage%2C_etc.?oldid=469378

https://www.eugeneengland.org/on-fidelity-polygamy-and-celestial-marriage (not useful for research but to help the reader appreciate how detrimental polygamy is to women)

https://jod.mrm.org/1/53 (Pratt’s 1852 treatise to fully explain the doctrine/theology behind plural marriage

https://archive.org/details/TheSeer18531854

https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/uip/dial/article-pdf/44/4/43/1960452/dialjmormthou.44.4.0043.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20100724211938/http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/IsPMRequiredToday.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20100724211938/

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/IsPMRequiredToday.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20100925074920/http://i4m.com/think/temples/celestial_marriage.htm

https://archive.org/details/patriarchalorder00spen/page/n5/mode/2up?view=theater

https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Celestial_Marriage_Revelations.pdf

pn3kXEypCRk9cbIKEs9P

The post Think Celestial – Celestial Marriage in Mormonism Before 1890 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Temple Madness: Mormonism Live: 162** Jan 11, 2024
Join us for a special episode of “Mormonism LIVE” titled “Temple Madness,” where we’re turning the spotlight on the lighter side of LDS temple experiences. In this unique and entertaining episode, we invite callers from the Mormon community to share their funniest, craziest, wackiest, and most bizarre temple stories that have occurred in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints other Mormon sects. RFM and Bill Reel will be joined by Rebecca Bibliotheca and they will kick off the episode by sharing some amusing anecdotes of their own, setting the tone for a lighthearted and humorous exploration of temple-related tales. From unexpected encounters to quirky traditions, “Temple Madness” aims to showcase the human side of the Mormon experience within its sacred walls. “Temple Madness” promises to be a one-of-a-kind episode that fosters a sense of community while embracing the shared joy found in the sometimes unexpected and amusing moments within the Mormon temple tradition. Tune in for an unforgettable night of laughter and connection on “Mormonism LIVE – Temple Madness.” 02:00 Intro 06:10 Maven learns about the oaths 09:40 Wendy ___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms: MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835 Insta: https://www.instagram.com/mormondiscussion/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mormondiscussion Discord (hosted by Mormon Stories): https://discord.com/invite/kuX5p6yyjF https://twitter.com/MormonDisc Contact us: MormonDiscussionsPodcasts@gmail.com #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Temple Madness: Mormonism Live: 162 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Growing Up Black In Mormonism [Mormonism Live: 161]** Jan 04, 2024
Growing Up Black In Mormonism [Mormonism Live: 161] Join hosts RFM and Bill Reel in this insightful episode of “Mormonism LIVE” as they engage in a candid conversation with Summur Rayn, a remarkable African American woman sharing her unique perspective on growing up in the Mormon community. We also get to her a bit about what it was like to raised in the home of a professional athlete and other unique experiences. This episode provides an invaluable opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of the experiences of Black individuals within the Mormon community, fostering empathy and dialogue around the complexities of faith, race, and identity. Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m

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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Growing Up Black In Mormonism [Mormonism Live: 161] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Abuse – Past Teachings & Present Problems | Mormonism Live 160** Dec 30, 2023
What might we find if we search the historical record about what LDS Prophets have taught around abuse. What have they said about Rape, or Child Abuse, or Sexual Assault? What would be taught by those who held the prophetic mantle? And What about in the present. The LDS Church says it takes abuse seriously but do they in fact practice what they preach. This week on Mormonism Live we investigate the past and the present and share what we find.

*** Trigger Warning ***
This episode contains discussions of sensitive and distressing topics related to abuse within the context of Mormonism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We will delve into past teachings, present challenges, and the lack of accountability, which may be triggering for individuals who have experienced trauma. Viewer discretion is advised. If you find these subjects distressing, consider seeking support or skipping this content for your well-being.

Chapters
3:05 Intro & Stats
19:10 Emphasis on controlling women
23:00 Tokens of virginity
27:45 The Ordeal of Bitter Water
40:50 Harshness for women
43:08 Problematic Mormon Scripture
47:45 The Miracle of Forgiveness: Better to die
1:11:40 Maven’s date gets possessive
1:08:15 The 1984 Letter
1:32:50 Richard G. Scott victim blames
1:38:50 Maven’s experiences as gatekeeper of chastity
1:45:30 Maven’s red dress
1:52:20 Maven’s experiences modding comments on modesty/sexuality
2:06:20 How the Church approaches abuse
2:27:25 Closing thoughts

Sources:
Sexual Violence in Utah, Annual Report 2021: https://vipp.health.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/SexualViolenceInUtahReport_2021.pdf
Child Sexual Abuse – USU https://www.usu.edu/uwlp/a-bolder-way-forward/child-sexual-abuse
Utah lawmaker questions whether sex with an unconscious person is rape ‘in every instance’ – Salt Lake Tribune: https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2136918&itype=CMSID

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
___________________

The post Mormon Abuse – Past Teachings & Present Problems | Mormonism Live 160 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**A Radio Free Mormon Christmas Eve Special – 2023** Dec 25, 2023
Mormonism Live Presents: A Radio Free Mormon Christmas Eve Special

Hello, This is Radio Free Mormon (RFM). Bill, Maven and I are doing a special live show on Christmas Eve starting at 6:00 pm MT and running for about an hour. Thank you and a very happy holiday season to you and yours!

The post A Radio Free Mormon Christmas Eve Special – 2023 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**April 6th – Mormon Jesus’ Birthday | Mormonism Live 159** Dec 21, 2023
Join us for Holiday Investigation into Jesus’ Birthday on Mormonism Live. We will delve into the intriguing topic of Jesus Christ’s alleged birthday on April 6th, 1 AD. In this episode, we tackle the longstanding belief within the LDS community that Jesus was born on this specific date, exploring the history, the leaders who propagated this idea, and the scholarly perspectives surrounding it. Points of Discussion: 4:25 LDS Leaders and April 6th 13:30 James E. Talmage’s Role 32:00 The Church’s current stance 36:00 How the Teaching Perpetuated Investigating Interpretations Right or Wrong? Scholarly Insights

RESOURCES:
https://ldssoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Talmage-Jesus-the-Christ.pdf
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-the-christ/title-page?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/04/bear-up-their-burdens-with-ease?lang=eng
https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/record/793820be-acda-4e5a-a97c-edfd828d3a44/0?view=browse
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1973/04/strengthen-the-stakes-of-zion?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1980/05/remarks-and-dedication-of-the-fayette-new-york-buildings?lang=eng
https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/c96ce919-aa1f-4811-ae96-585f3becf8cb/0/55
http://boap.org/LDS/Presidents/L-Spencer-W-Kimball.txt
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/the-story-behind-the-story?lang=eng
https://archive.org/details/improvementera18011unse
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/04/why-call-me-lord-lord-and-do-not-the-things-which-i-say?lang=eng https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2022/12/when-was-jesus-born/
https://www.ldsliving.com/was-jesus-born-in-december-after-all-what-prophets-and-apostles-have-said/s/80634
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4289&context=byusq
https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/April_6

Today is (probably) not Jesus’s Birthday

Join the conversation as we navigate through history, theology, and scholarship to unravel the mystery behind April 6th as Mormon Jesus’ birthday. Don’t miss this thought-provoking episode that promises to challenge preconceptions and shed light on a lesser-known aspect of LDS teachings.
Mark your calendars and subscribe to Mormonism Live for an intellectually stimulating discussion on April 6th – the alleged birthdate of Jesus Christ according to Mormon tradition.

#MormonismLive #ReligiousHistory #JesusBirthday #LDSChurch #scholarlyperspectives
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today:

Mormonism Live !

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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post April 6th – Mormon Jesus’ Birthday | Mormonism Live 159 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE ! 3rd Anniversary Special [ML: 158]** Dec 15, 2023
Mormonism LIVE ! 3rd Anniversary Special
Join us for a special celebration as Mormonism Live marks its triumphant 3rd Anniversary!
Over the past three years, we’ve delved deep into the world of Mormonism, exploring its history, beliefs, and culture with thought-provoking discussions. In this milestone episode, we take a nostalgic journey through the past year’s episodes, reminiscing about the highlights, controversies, and enlightening moments that have defined our show.
Episode Highlights: Year in Review: Get ready for a trip down memory lane as we revisit the most captivating and impactful episodes from the past year. From insightful interviews to in-depth analyses, we’ll cover it all! Q&A Session: We’re turning the spotlight on YOU! Have burning questions about Mormonism, our show, or anything in between? Drop them in the comments, and we’ll answer as many as we can during the live Q&A segment. Live Phone Calls: This is your chance to be a part of the celebration! We’ll be taking live phone calls, allowing listeners to share their favorite moments, experiences, and thoughts about Mormonism Live. Dial in and join the conversation!
As we reflect on three years of enlightening discussions, we’re grateful for the incredible community that has grown around Mormonism Live. Whether you’re a long-time viewer or a newcomer, your participation has been the heartbeat of this show.
Save the date, set a reminder, and join us for this special episode filled with laughter, insights, and maybe a surprise or two! Together, let’s celebrate the past and look forward to more engaging discussions in the years to come.
Don’t miss out on the Mormonism Live 3rd Anniversary Extravaganza – where every voice matters, and every question is an opportunity for discovery! #MormonismLive

The post Mormonism LIVE ! 3rd Anniversary Special [ML: 158] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Shocking Truth about Mandatory Reporting [Mormon Discussion: 390]** Dec 08, 2023
In this eye-opening episode of the Mormon Discussion podcast, host Bill Reel takes a brave and unexpected stance on a topic that has long been considered a cornerstone in the fight against abuse. In “The Shocking Truth about Mandatory Reporting,” Bill discloses a profound shift in his perspective after delving into extensive research on the subject. CONTENT WARNING: This episode may be difficult to hear for those who have been abused or help prevent and heal from abuse, as Bill grapples with a challenging realization. Before diving into the intricacies of his changed viewpoint, Bill wants to make it abundantly clear that he remains passionately committed to the cause of eradicating abuse in both the “Mormon” and “post-Mormon” communities. Join Bill Reel as he fearlessly explores the complexities surrounding mandatory reporting, challenging conventional wisdom and engaging listeners in a thought-provoking dialogue that aims to foster a safer and more informed community. Buckle up for an episode that confronts uncomfortable truths, encourages open conversation, and ultimately seeks to contribute to the ongoing efforts to create a safer environment for all.

**RESOURCES:**

https://publicsquaremag.org/politics-law/legal/a-misguided-crusade-how-mandatory-reporting-fails-our-children/

https://publicsquaremag.org/sexuality-family/sexual-abuse/latter-day-saint-abuse-myths/

https://search.brave.com/search?q=what+research+studies+say+about+mandatory+reporting&source=web

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK195993/

https://scholars.unh.edu/honors/15/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5652515/

https://www.umass.edu/research/guidance/mandatory-reporting

https://aifs.gov.au/resources/resource-sheets/mandatory-reporting-child-abuse-and-neglect

https://ldi.upenn.edu/our-work/research-updates/preventing-child-abuse-is-more-reporting-better/

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0760/11/7/273

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubpdfs/manda.pdf

Thanks so much for watching! Please like, subscribe, and leave a comment!

Visit our Channel to find everything Mormonism! https://www.youtube.com/c/MormonDiscussionsInc or @MormonDiscussion

Our mission at Mormon Discussion is to be a beacon of support for those who are questioning the truth claims or renegotiating their relationship with faith. Our podcasts like “Mormonism Live,” “Radio Free Mormon,” and “Mormon Discussion” offer a safe space for Discovery and healing. But we need your help. Your donations power our work – expanding outreach, improving content, and creating new initiatives. Visit https://donorbox.org/umbrella-entity or https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/please-consider-donating-today/ and make a difference today. Your support empowers us to empower others.

We are a 501C3 Non-Profit and your donation is tax deductable inside the United States https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/please-consider-donating-today/ Thank you for being part of the change. Together, we’re making a real impact.

The post The Shocking Truth about Mandatory Reporting [Mormon Discussion: 390] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Toscano Excommunications! [Mormonism LIVE: 157]** Dec 07, 2023
The Toscano Excommunications! [Mormonism LIVE: 157]

4:00 Guest Intro 15:00 Courtship & Marriage
22:00 Underground documents
25:00 Paul serving a mission
29:55 Harold B Lee story
35:00 Margaret’s feminism journey
40:15 RFM first hears about the September 6
43:00 The Mormon Women’s Forum

Uncover untold stories and explore the religious complexities of Faith in this week’s episode of Mormonism LIVE! Join hosts RFM (Radio Free Mormon) and Bill Reel as they talk of excommunications within the LDS Church with none other than Paul and Margaret Toscano.

Ever wondered about the journey of those who challenge the status quo within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Look no further! In this candid and exclusive interview, the Toscanos share their personal experiences and insights surrounding their excommunications from the LDS Church.

About our Guests: Paul and Margaret Toscano, two prominent figures with a rich history within the LDS Church, share their unique perspectives on faith, community, and the challenges they faced when their beliefs diverged from the mainstream. Gain valuable insights from their experiences and perhaps find common ground with their struggles.

Hosted by RFM and Bill Reel: Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel are well-known figures in the Mormon podcasting community. With their vast knowledge and engaging interviewing style, they bring forth thought-provoking conversations that explore the nuances of Mormonism.

Subscribe, like, and hit the notification bell to stay updated on the latest episodes of Mormonism LIVE! Share your thoughts in the comments below and let’s foster a respectful and insightful dialogue about the diverse narratives within the LDS Church.

#MormonismLIVE #ToscanoExcommunications #LDSChurch #FaithJourney #RFM #BillReel #PaulToscano #MargaretToscano
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions
Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P

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Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841

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Contact us: MormonDiscussionsPodcasts@gmail.com

#MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon

Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post The Toscano Excommunications! [Mormonism LIVE: 157] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Dan McClellan: Discerning Between Data and Dogma** Dec 05, 2023
THIS WAS AN ALMOST AWAKENED EPISODE BUT HAD SO MUCH OF THE COVERSATION REVOLVING AROUND MORMONISM THAT WE HAVE INCLUDED IT HERE AS A GUEST EPISODE

Join hosts Bill Reel & Britt Hartley on this thought-provoking episode of Almost Awakened as they engage in a profound conversation with Dr. Dan McClellan. With a rich background in Ancient Near Eastern studies and a doctorate in the cognitive science of religion, Dr. McClellan brings a unique perspective to the table.

In this interview, delve into the intricacies of Mormon doctrine, particularly examining James E. Talmage’s role in codifying beliefs about the Godhead and exploring how this approach is received in wider biblical scholarship. Beyond the theological discussion, the conversation opens up to the broader benefits of studying the Bible, even for those in the post-deconstruction phase of their spiritual journey.

Dr. McClellan shares insights on the significance of biblical literacy in understanding Western civilization, literature, art, and government. The interview doesn’t shy away from tough questions, addressing Dr. McClellan’s experience with various religious groups claiming him and how he navigates identity in the context of evolving beliefs.

Listeners will gain valuable insights into Dr. McClellan’s perspective on Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible, his favorite stories for deep exegesis, and the challenges and rewards of being a public scholar. As the conversation unfolds, the hosts explore the delicate balance between data and dogma, pondering the impact of changing doctrines on spiritual experiences.

The interview wraps up with a glimpse into Dr. McClellan’s ongoing projects, his stance on reporting religious aspects of global situations like Gaza, and a shout-out to his social media platform, courses, and the Data over Dogma podcast. Tune in for a captivating dialogue that transcends boundaries, inviting you to discern between data and dogma in your own spiritual exploration. Don’t miss this opportunity to expand your understanding of the Bible and religion with Dr. Dan McClellan on Almost Awakened!

Thanks so much for watching! Please like, subscribe, and leave a comment! Visit our Channel to find everything Mormonism! https://www.youtube.com/c/MormonDiscussionsInc or @MormonDiscussion

Our mission at Mormon Discussion is to be a beacon of support for those who are questioning the truth claims or renegotiating their relationship with faith. Our podcasts like “Mormonism Live,” “Radio Free Mormon,” and “Mormon Discussion” offer a safe space for Discovery and healing. But we need your help. Your donations power our work – expanding outreach, improving content, and creating new initiatives. Visit https://donorbox.org/umbrella-entity or https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/please-consider-donating-today/ and make a difference today. Your support empowers us to empower others.

We are a 501C3 Non-Profit and your donation is tax deductible inside the United States https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/please-consider-donating-today/

Thank you for being part of the change. Together, we’re making a real impact.

The post Dan McClellan: Discerning Between Data and Dogma appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Breaking AP Story: How the Mormon Church Protects Itself From Abuse Claims [The Mormon Times]** Dec 05, 2023

Today two important AP News stories broke:

Recordings show how the Mormon church protects itself from child Sex Abuse claims: https://apnews.com/article/mormon-church-investigation-child-sex-abuse-9c301f750725c0f06344f948690caf16

Takeaways from The AP’s investigation into the Mormon church’s handling of $ex @bu$e cases: https://apnews.com/article/mormon-church-investigation-child-sex-abuse-4db829616a5c5cfa351a2e95d778ae9e

And the Deseret News issued a response: https://www.deseret.com/2023/12/3/23986797/idaho-abuse-case-latter-day-saints-church-responds-to-ap-story

Please join us at 6pm mountain today as we launch the inaugural episode of “The Mormon Times: A Weekly Mormon News Program for the Latter-days.”

he Mormon Times will be a weekly LDS Church-themed news panel featuring Rebecca Bibliotheca (Mormonish Podcast), Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon (Mormonism Live!), and John Dehlin (Mormon Stories Podcast).

We envision other panelists joining the program in the future as well.

**RESOURCES:**

https://apnews.com/article/mormon-church-investigation-child-sex-abuse-9c301f750725c0f06344f948690caf16

https://www.deseret.com/2023/12/3/23986797/idaho-abuse-case-latter-day-saints-church-responds-to-ap-story

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/lds-church-responds-to-new-sex-abuse-investigation

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/lds-church-speaks-out-after-associated-press-sex-abuse-investigation

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/2-3b-awarded-in-sex-abuse-lawsuit-that-named-lds-church

https://kutv.com/news/local/the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-responds-to-ap-report-on-how-members-sex-abuse-claims-handled-mormon-lds-clergy-loophole-bishop-offender

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/how-mormons-approach-abuse

The post Breaking AP Story: How the Mormon Church Protects Itself From Abuse Claims [The Mormon Times] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Paul Toscano – Could Mormonism Still Be True? [Mormonism LIVE: 156]** Nov 30, 2023
Join Bill Reel & RFM (Radio Free Mormon) for an engaging episode of “Mormonism LIVE,” featuring a special interview with the well-known Mormon figure, Paul Toscano. In this thought-provoking conversation, Paul will offer unique insights into his personal journey within the Mormon faith, touching upon his involvement in the infamous “September 6” event—a pivotal moment in Mormon history. Paul Toscano and his wife were key figures in the “September 6,” a group of intellectuals and scholars excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1993. During the interview, Paul will share a glimpse into this historical moment, shedding light on the challenges faced by those who questioned certain aspects of Mormon doctrine and history. The heart of the discussion, however, will revolve around Paul’s perspective on how Mormonism remains true for him, despite the complexities and controversies that have arisen over time. Paul will delve into his personal beliefs, highlighting the resilience and adaptability of his faith in the face of challenges and historical intricacies. Whether you’re a devout follower, a curious skeptic, or someone navigating your own faith journey, this interview promises to be a nuanced exploration of the intricate relationship between individuals and their beliefs. RFM and Bill Reel, known for their insightful conversations on Mormonism, will guide the discussion with respect and openness, creating a space for a meaningful dialogue about faith, doubt, and the enduring nature of religious conviction. Tune in for a captivating episode that seeks to bridge understanding between diverse perspectives within the Mormon community, offering a platform for candid discussions on the complexities of faith and personal belief. Subscribe, like, and share as we navigate the fascinating intersections of history, belief, and the ever-evolving landscape of Mormonism.

RESOURCES: https://www.amazon.com/Books-Paul-Toscano/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3APaul+Toscano

Chapters
2:00 ish? Intro to Paul Toscano
12:20 Could Mormonism still be true?
16:15 My agreements with most Ex-Mormons
17:18 Other Triggers for Faith Crises
19:00 Why care about alternative narratives?
26:30 History vs Myth, Fact vs Fiction
32:00 Problems for the Church
36:40 Current Church History Timeline
42:40 Clues that it’s a myth, not a history
53:00 Godhead problems

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Paul Toscano – Could Mormonism Still Be True? [Mormonism LIVE: 156] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Welcome To The Mormon Apocalypse [Mormonism LIVE: 155]** Nov 23, 2023
Welcome To The Mormon Apocalypse as we join hosts RFM and Bill Reel on a riveting episode of “Mormonism Live” as they unravel the captivating phenomenon of “The Mormon Apocalypse.” In this thought-provoking discussion, our hosts dive into the core of why there’s a surge in Mormons pondering and speculating on the apocalyptic end of times and the second coming of Jesus.

RFM and Bill Reel explore the roots of the theology that has sparked widespread discussions about the end times within the Mormon community. From celestial events to theological interpretations, our hosts dissect the various factors that contribute to this captivating phenomenon.

Tune in for a captivating conversation that delves into the reasons behind the upsurge in apocalyptic ponderings and speculations within the Mormon community. Share your thoughts in the comments section below, and let’s engage in a respectful and insightful dialogue.

The post Welcome To The Mormon Apocalypse [Mormonism LIVE: 155] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Life of Moroni: A Voice From The Dust [Mormonism LIVE: 154]** Nov 16, 2023
In this episode of Mormonism LIVE titled “Voice From The Dust: The Life of Moroni,” we embark on a captivating journey through the life of Moroni, the last surviving Nephite and guardian of the sacred golden plates. Join us as we delve into Moroni’s early years, exploring his upbringing in a time of great turmoil and upheaval, as the Nephite civilization faced its ultimate demise. Through historical context, we uncover the challenges and pivotal moments that shaped Moroni into the stalwart figure he would become and led to his violent death.

Chapters:

3:45 Moroni’s Birth
19:15 Moroni’s travel map
35:30 Moroni’s rules
40:00 Alvin’s Hand
59:50 Joseph’s 1832 journal account
1:05:00 1838 First Vision account
1:18:00 Mary Whitmer
1:49:00 Monkey in a box
2:00:00 The death of Moroni
Callers
2:10:30 Caller Edward: What’s up with Marvel?

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m

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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post The Life of Moroni: A Voice From The Dust [Mormonism LIVE: 154] appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Excommunicated In Absentia: Mormonism LIVE: 153** Nov 09, 2023
Welcome to Mormonism LIVE! In this installment, hosts RFM and Bill Reel delve into the intricacies of the excommunication of a couple who were previous guests on the show. (Ep. 145Shunning by decree https://youtube.com/live/HmUTeRWuLtA) Join us as we examine the details surrounding their church discipline and the broader implications for those involved. In “Excommunicated In Absentia,” RFM and Bill Reel bring their signature insightful commentary and analysis to shed light on the complexities surrounding this issue. Drawing from their extensive knowledge of Mormonism, they aim to foster understanding and dialogue within the community. Whether you’re a devout member of the LDS Church, an ex-Mormon, or simply curious about the inner workings of LDS Church discipline, this episode promises to offer valuable insights and perspectives. Join us for a lively discussion that seeks to promote empathy, compassion, and open conversation.

Chapters:
05:45 Episode 145 recap
21:15 Disciplinary Notice
33:00 Sara’s Email
41:20 President Morgan’s response
57:20 Mitja’s Statement
1:05:30 Sara’s Response
1:15:00 A Surprising Response
1:20:45 The Letter
1:58:30 Caller Sally: Mitja as scapegoat
2:01:05 Caller David: You are heroes
2:05:00 Caller Marzipan: It’ll get better

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m

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#MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon

Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Excommunicated In Absentia: Mormonism LIVE: 153 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Sister Wives’ Kody Brown [Exclusive Interview] ML: 152** Nov 02, 2023
Join us for a special episode of “Mormonism LIVE,” where hosts Bill Reel & RFM (Radio Free Mormon) sit down with Kody Brown, one of the central figures from the popular TV show “Sister Wives.” In this exclusive interview, we delve deep into the world of polygamy, exploring both the personal and cultural aspects of this controversial practice. Kody Brown has opened up his life to the public through the hit reality series “Sister Wives.” Together, they navigate the complexities and challenges of plural marriage, giving viewers a unique perspective into a lifestyle that is both intriguing and controversial. In this candid conversation, Kody shares his experiences, insights, and reflections on living plural marriage within the context of his faith. RFM and Bill Reel, known for their thoughtful and probing discussions on Mormonism, bring their expertise to bear on this fascinating subject. They will guide the conversation with sensitivity, seeking to foster understanding and promote meaningful dialogue around the complexities of faith, family, and relationships. Whether you’re a long-time fan of “Sister Wives,” someone with a curiosity about alternative family structures, or simply interested in exploring the diverse tapestry of religious beliefs, this interview promises to be an enlightening and thought-provoking experience. Tune in for a captivating discussion that delves into the heart of a lifestyle that challenges societal norms and offers a window into a world often hidden from public view.

The post Sister Wives’ Kody Brown [Exclusive Interview] ML: 152 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Navigating A Troubling Religion: MD: 389** Oct 31, 2023
In this episode of the Mormon Discussion Podcast, Bill Reel sits down with author John Moroni Hanson to delve into his memoir, “Navigating On Black Ice: My Mormon Life.”

Book Synopsis: “An exploration of how an intelligent man found himself entangled in a troubling religion, ‘Navigating on Black Ice’ is an enlightening journey of coming to understand what you want. Author John Moroni Hanson unravels the threads of influence such as birth order, family, and identity, shedding light on the complex web that keeps people associated with the Mormon Church. From his process of breaking free to the painful journey of self-discovery, Hanson’s story is a testament to the power of healing, self-acceptance, and liberation from destructive emotions. This must-read memoir challenges beliefs and inspires personal growth with courage and compassion.”

Join us as Bill and John offer those with doubts and anguish a new path that seeks to priortize the the one over the system, offering insights that resonate with people from various denominations, students of religion and psychology, and those seeking to understand when the church asks too much.

Connect with John Moroni Hanson:

https://www.facebook.com/john.hanson.9849

https://www.amazon.com/Navigating-Black-Ice-Mormon-Life-ebook/dp/B0CKY7ZL26?ref_=ast_author_mpb

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/book/1144219504

The post Navigating A Troubling Religion: MD: 389 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Coast to Coast With Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon: Mormonism LIVE: 151** Oct 26, 2023
Get ready for a spine-tingling Halloween special as “Mormonism LIVE” takes a chilling detour into the world of the paranormal. In this special episode, hosts Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel play on the motif of the legendary “Coast to Coast AM” radio show, inviting you to share your most hair-raising ghost stories and inexplicable encounters live on this week’s show. Join us as we venture into the unexplained, peeling back the layers of eerie tales and mysterious happenings. From shadowy figures to ghostly apparitions, the lines between the living and the supernatural blur as our audience shares their firsthand accounts of the otherworldly. Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon bring their signature wit, insight, and open-mindedness to this unique exploration of the unknown. Whether you’re a skeptic or a believer, this episode promises to deliver a Halloween experience like no other. So, gather ’round and prepare to be both spooked and spellbound in this unforgettable Coast to Coast special.

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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#MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon

Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Coast to Coast With Bill Reel & Radio Free Mormon: Mormonism LIVE: 151 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism’s Holy Matrimony: ML: 150** Oct 19, 2023
This week’s episode “Mormonism’s Holy Matrimony” takes listeners on a journey through the hidden annals of Mormon history, exploring the controversial teachings of early LDS leaders that suggest Jesus Christ was married and what we know about Christ’s descendants. Delving deep into historical documents Bill Reel and RFM unravel the layers of visibility and acknowledgement surrounding these teachings. Through meticulous research, we aim to shed light on the suppressed narratives, examining the motives behind the LDS Church’s efforts to distance itself from these teachings in a bid to conform to societal norms. This episode confronts the tension between tradition and revelation and the LDS Church need to fit in and appear mainstream. With a balanced approach, we strive to provide a comprehensive view of this complex issue, respecting diverse perspectives within and outside the Church. The podcast culminates in a couple of surprise discoveries that unveil the startling truth about the official status of these teachings within the LDS Church. Drawing on extensive research these discoveries promise to be a significant addition to our collective understanding of the intricate relationship between early LDS beliefs and the Church’s evolving doctrine on this issue. “Was Jesus Married and Who Are His Descendants” invites listeners to re-examine their perceptions of Mormon history, faith, and the ongoing evolution of religious doctrine. Join us on this riveting journey as we uncover the truth about past doctrine.

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions
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#MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon

Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
___________________
Mormonism Live, Bill Reel, Radio Free Mormon, RFM, Mormons, Mormonism, LDS, Church of Jesus Christ, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,

The post Mormonism’s Holy Matrimony: ML: 150 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Ballards Breaking Bad: ML: 149** Oct 12, 2023
In this episode of “Mormonism Live” hosted by RFM and Bill Reel, we delve deeper into the intricate web of connections between former Operation Underground Railroad president Tim Ballard and LDS Apostle Elder M. Russell Ballard. We uncover the morally ambiguous terrain that surrounds these two figures. As the fallout from the allegations against Tim Ballard continues, a stark division emerges. On one side, a Mormon Church spokesman, Doug Andersen, vehemently denies any involvement of Elder M. Russell Ballard in Tim Ballard’s ventures. Tim Ballard, defending his position, maintains that he never exploited Elder Ballard’s name for financial gain, insisting that they had no business dealings.

However, as our investigative journey explores the surrounding allegations, the possibility that both Ballards are entangled in more than one dubious enterprise, casts shadows over their declarations of innocence. During a alleged clandestine meeting of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, shocking revelations emerge, shedding light on the shared interests of the Ballards in the creation of the film “Sound of Freedom.” This motion picture, we discover, was perhaps not only a means to immortalize and enrich Tim Ballard but also a missionary tool to further the cause of Mormonism. The allegations of sexual misconduct against Tim Ballard take a disturbing turn as unnamed victims come forward, accusing him of invoking Elder Russell Ballard’s name to exert spiritual influence, alledgedly leading to illicit sexual encounters. In this episode, we unravel a narrative where lines blur, loyalties are tested, and dark secrets come to light. Join us as we navigate the treacherous terrain of morality and power dynamics, echoing the iconic words from “Breaking Bad”: “I am the one who knocks.” “The Ballards Breaking Bad” reveals a complex tale of victimhood and complicity, leaving us to ponder whether Elder M. Russell Ballard is a victim, an accomplice, or something else entirely in this intricate web of deception.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/r3edlz/is_it_any_coincidence_that_m_russell_ballard_the/

https://mormondisclosures.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-widows-mightmakes-rites.html

https://www.thejimmyrexshow.info/timballard

https://archives.lib.byu.edu/agents/people/7217

The post The Ballards Breaking Bad: ML: 149 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Decoding General Conference: Mormonism Live: 148** Oct 05, 2023
In ‘Decoding General Conference’, we delve deep into the recent October 2023 LDS General Conference. Join us as we uncover the subtle nuances, hidden messages, and underlying themes of the most newsworthy talks. Explore the intersection of faith, fear, and leadership methods, and gain fresh perspectives on the tactics and evolving doctrines. It’s a journey of revelation and insight that challenges conventional narratives.

Chapters
10:00 Renlund’s new baptism Doctrine
18:00 Oaks – Abiding by the laws of the kingdom
41:55 Waddell –
54:55 Waddell – all questions answered in life of Jesus
1:06:00 Nelson – “Think Celestial”
1:09:15 TK Smoothie
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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#MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon

Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Decoding General Conference: Mormonism Live: 148 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Latter-day Lattes – Coffee Culture in the LDS Community: MD: 388** Oct 05, 2023
In this episode “Latter-day Lattes,” Bill Reel delves into a thought-provoking article recently published by The Salt Lake Tribune, titled “Why More and More Young Latter-day Saints are Drinking Coffee.” The article sheds light on the growing trend of coffee consumption among young members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) in spite of of LDS Commandment in D&C 89 to abstain from coffee and other substances as part of the word of wisdom. Our discussion begins by examining the historical context of D&C 89 known as the Word of Wisdom which prohibits coffee within the LDS community, exploring the evolution of attitudes towards this caffeinated beverage.The article highlights the experiences and perspectives of young Mormons who have chosen to incorporate coffee into their daily lives.

We hear personal anecdotes and reflections on how this decision intersects with their faith and sense of identity within the LDS community. We examine perspectives on the evolving relationship between religious doctrine and modern lifestyle choices, including the consumption of coffee. We also explore the potential impact of this shift on the broader LDS community, considering how it might influence intergenerational dynamics and discussions surrounding faith and cultural traditions. “Latter-day Lattes” seeks to provide a platform for understanding and appreciating the diverse experiences of young Latter-day Saints navigating this evolving aspect of their faith journey.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/09/26/why-more-more-young-latter-day/

The post Latter-day Lattes – Coffee Culture in the LDS Community: MD: 388 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormons Gone Wild: ML: 147** Sep 28, 2023
Mormon Church Seeks To Silence Whistleblower?: ML: 146 Mormonism Live has been watching from afar this story with 8 passengers and Jodi Hildebrandt and has for tonight’s episode zoomed in real close to look at a particular facet connection to the story to once again shine a light on the deep unhealthiness that permeates LDS Leadership and once again show that loyalty and obedience seem to be prioritized character traits over doing what is right and good.

Full interview at Mormon Stories: https://www.youtube.com/live/_gvsqvz92KM?si=iSkKfG8gxrgPzNjU

Chapters:

1:45 Intro & Overview

7:30 Two Mormon General Authorities
12:20 Camp Little Lemhi Abuse Incident
20:55 Abuser’s Conviction 28:05 Mormon Homophobia among BSA
30:10 Suing BSA 36:35 Changing Idaho Law
49:45 Elder Hillam and the Perversion Files
57:30 Hillam Tries to ruin Adam’s marriage
1:05:40 Jodi’s “therapy” and Mormon doctrine on masturbation
1:18:00 Systemic destruction of marriages 1:25:40 Weaponizing Honor Code Office
1:33:15 Marriage & Entrapment
1:47:10 Custody Battles
1:57:55 Trying to get back into BYU
2:13:15 Updates & Comments
2:20:00 Calls Mormon Stories Interviews with Tim Kosnoff:

Radio Free Mormon Sex Scandal Coverup: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq34QmiHsNjdDu84bkhDdYlYameRuC9Yc

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions
Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms:
MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841 Connect on Social Media:
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Mormons Gone Wild: ML: 147 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Church Seeks To Silence Whistleblower?: ML: 146** Sep 28, 2023
Mormonism Live has been watching from afar this story with 8 passengers and Jodi Hildebrandt and has for tonight’s episode zoomed in real close to look at a particular facet connection to the story to once again shine a light on the deep unhealthiness that permeates LDS Leadership and once again show that loyalty and obedience seem to be prioritized character traits over doing what is right and good. Full interview at Mormon Stories: https://www.youtube.com/live/_gvsqvz92KM?si=iSkKfG8gxrgPzNjU

Chapters:
1:45 Intro & Overview
7:30 Two Mormon General Authorities
12:20 Camp Little Lemhi Abuse Incident
20:55 Abuser’s Conviction 28:05 Mormon Homophobia among BSA
30:10 Suing BSA 36:35 Changing Idaho Law 49:45 Elder Hillam and the Perversion Files
57:30 Hillam Tries to ruin Adam’s marriage
1:05:40 Jodi’s “therapy” and Mormon doctrine on masturbation 1:18:00 Systemic destruction of marriages
1:25:40 Weaponizing Honor Code Office
1:33:15 Marriage & Entrapment
1:47:10 Custody Battles
1:57:55 Trying to get back into BYU
2:13:15 Updates & Comments
2:20:00 Calls

Mormon Stories Interviews with Tim Kosnoff:

https://youtube.com/live/6kkHUiOs6us Radio Free Mormon Sex Scandal Coverup:

___________________ Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Mormon Church Seeks To Silence Whistleblower?: ML: 146 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Shunning By Decree: Mormonism LIVE: 145** Sep 14, 2023
One LDS couple shares their experience about how the LDS Church tries to prevent members from sharing uncomfortable truths with each other.

Chapters
5:00 Guest introduction
15:00 The video that started it all
24:00 Voting opposed 44:00 Fast & Testimony Meeting
50:00 Canceling church
58:00 Chatbot and circular reasoning
59:30 Aftermath of the testimony meeting
1:02:30 The nightmare
1:05:00 Email from the Bishop
1:15:15 Stake President meets him in the parking lot
1:17:00 Another fast & testimony meeting
1:37:25 The Cops show up at the house
1:50:00 A Cowardly Letter from Kirton McConkie
2:03:45 The Texts 2:17:15 In Closing
2:26:00 Calls Episodes mentioned:

The Rules of the Game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c4md93lOm8
Why Mormons Are So Fake: Radio Free Mormon: 079: Why Are Mormons So Fake – Radio Free Mormon
LDS AI Chat: LDSBot.com

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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#MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon

Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Shunning By Decree: Mormonism LIVE: 145 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Is Mormonism True Or Is It A Fraud? [How You Can Know] ML:144** Sep 07, 2023
Embark with “Mormonism Live” on a thought-provoking journey with its hosts Bill Reel and RFM in their podcast, “Is Mormonism True Or Is It A Fraud?” as they investigate the LDS Church Truth claims, how those claims run into a wall of contradictions, and how the LDS Church simply moved the goalposts so as to make Mormonism indiscernible from a fraud. This podcast sheds light on the problematic issues that have cast shadows of doubt upon the LDS faithful as Bill Reel and RFM take you on a captivating exploration of the Church’s ever-evolving framing of these issues. Discover how, when faced with the doubts and faith crises of LDS believers, the Church and its apologists have skillfully retreated on each issue, artfully crafting new narratives that blur the line between truth and potential fraud. The podcast unravels Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church’s truth claims, examining the complex history that surrounds the foundational beliefs of the LDS faith. In “Is Mormonism True Or Is It A Fraud?” you’ll gain a deeper understanding of the delicate balance between faith and skepticism within the LDS community. Join us as we navigate the intricate landscape of Mormonism, questioning the past while seeking to uncover the truth in the present.

**RESOURCES:**

Mormon quotes about Adam God theory (mormonthink.com)

The post Is Mormonism True Or Is It A Fraud? [How You Can Know] ML:144 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Does the Book of Mormon Refute Itself ?: ML: 143** Aug 31, 2023
Dr. John Lundwall explains how the Book of Mormon not only contains anachronisms, but is actually an anachronism itself. Chapters 08:00 John’s intro 10:10 Orality & Literacy 11:12 Entire presentation summarized in one slide 23:00 Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man 24:00 The Medium is the message 27:15 Printing Press as Medium 32:00 Oral and Literate Mediums 41:20 Oral Imprinting Press 52:30 Secondary Orality 57:15 Metal Plates: History or Ritual? 58:00 Literate thinking 1:00:00 Mythologizing History 1:04:30 Evolution of Religion 1:07:00 Evolution of the Word 1:20:00 Joseph Smith Assumes History is Literate 1:31:30 Nephite & Lamanite Civilizations are Fully Literate
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Does the Book of Mormon Refute Itself ?: ML: 143 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Prophetic Racism – From Doctrine to Disavowed Theories | Mormonism Live 142** Aug 24, 2023
In this episode, we delve deep into the controversial history of the LDS (Latter-day Saints) Church’s priesthood ban, shedding light on the untold truths and deceptions that shaped this discriminatory practice. From its mysterious origins to its lasting impact, we uncover a story that challenges the foundation of faith and reveals the complex interplay of faith, culture, and racism.

RESOURCES:
Lester Bush’s original Article – https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V08N01_13.pdf
Lester Bush – https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=mormonhistory pg 229

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=arrington_stwriting

Elder Oaks “Be One Celebration” – https://youtu.be/ZXrlHULMFcE

Bruce R McConkie “All Are Alike unto God” – https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/alike-unto-god/
Bruce R. McConkie April 1980 “The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/04/the-coming-tests-and-trials-and-glory?lang=eng

Randy Bott – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_L._Bott
Official Statement of the Church

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/race-church

Elder Holland – https://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html
2007 “The Mormons”

Abraham 1: 21-22, 26-27

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/abr/1?lang=eng

Moses Chapter 7: 6-8
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/moses/7?lang=eng

Joseph Smith “Messenger & Advocate – pg 289 https://archive.org/details/latterdaysaintsm01unse/page/n303/mode/2up

Brigham Young address before the legislative assembly of the Territory of Utah on January 6, 1852

https://archive.org/details/CR100317B0001F0017/mode/2up
https://www.theroot.com/do-most-whites-have-traces-of-african-dna-as-i-do-1790874465
https://www.vox.com/2014/12/22/7431391/guess-where-white-americans-have-the-most-african-ancestry

Dr Lowry Nelson Correspondence – https://www.mormonstories.org/lowry-nelson/

Race and The Priesthood Gospel Topic Essay https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

1969 First Presidency Letter – http://exhibits.usu.edu/files/original/aecf91ae5ab5e2af3892cd200971fd39.pdf
Missed In Sunday School – https://missedinsunday.com/category/memes/race/

Brigham Young’s Prophecy – https://jod.mrm.org/2/136

Racist LDS Teacings – https://bib.irr.org/brigham-young-on-race-later-comments

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Prophetic Racism – From Doctrine to Disavowed Theories | Mormonism Live 142 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Dismantling Brian Hales’ Book of Mormon Defense: Mormonism LIVE: 141** Aug 17, 2023
Dismantling Brian Hales’ Book of Mormon Defense: ML: 141 In this episode, hosts RFM and Bill Reel team up with LDS scholar Dan Vogel to critically examine the arguments put forth by LDS apologist Brian Hales in defense of the Book of Mormon’s authenticity. They discuss Hales’ reasons and defenses of why the BOM can’t possibly be a work of fiction authored without God’s involvement. The conversation offers a scholarly exploration of the strengths and weaknesses of Hales’ defense, encouraging listeners to engage in thoughtful analysis of the Book of Mormon’s origins.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.rickgrunder.com/parallels/mp193.pdf
https://missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/paul-vs-moroni/
https://missedinsunday.com/memes/other/adamic-language/
https://missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/plagiarism-in-book-of-mormon/
https://missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/king-james-bible/
http://www.fullerconsideration.com/TempleNameOracle/
https://missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/mark-16/

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
___________________

The post Dismantling Brian Hales’ Book of Mormon Defense: Mormonism LIVE: 141 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Brian Hales & The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Book Review Pt 1: ML: 140** Aug 10, 2023
Brian Hales & The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Book Review: ML: 140 We lost Dan due to storms affecting his internet connection, so join us next week for part 2! In this week’s episode, Mormon apologist Brian Hales enters the scene to deliver a 2-star review of “Charisma under Pressure,” the groundbreaking book by Mormon critic Dan Vogel. As the battle of perspectives unfolds, it becomes apparent that Brian’s review may not be all it seems, raising questions about intellectual honesty and genuine consideration. While giving us all pause to consider the believing mindset and church loyalty of its apologists while also considering the fine line between passionate belief and intentional misleading.

Chapters
09:00 The Review
17:30 Brian Hales by the numbers
23:25 The first paragraph
28:00 Brian makes the caricatures 32:30 Second paragraph
34:15 God of the (dictation) gap
48:00 RFM on the revelations Joseph also got
50:00 BoM a “complex” book
1:08:45 Joseph’s Composition and Oratory skills
1:27:45 Bill goes over proof he is a liar
1:30:45 Caller: Brian, words aren’t miracles
1:39:20 NaNoWriMo
1:45:25 Caller: I wrote my 77,000 Master’s thesis as a mom of 5 in two months

___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
___________________

The post Brian Hales & The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Book Review Pt 1: ML: 140 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Obscure Mormon Artifacts: Mormonism Live: 139** Aug 03, 2023
Step off the beaten path of Mormon history and venture into the realm of relics & artifacts that shed light on lesser-known aspects of the Mormon faith. Delve into the enigmatic history of handkerchiefs, coffin canes, along with other obscure artifacts that whisper compelling tales from the annals of Mormon History.

Chapters:

13:00 Zelph Arrowhead
24:00ish Everything Joseph trips over ends up supremely significant
26:00 Masonic Apron 27:40 Joseph’s Red Silk Handkerchief
31:20 Joseph Smith Nauvoo Legion Attire
32:45 Joseph’s Pepperbox Pistol
34:30 Hyrum’s clothing at Martyrdom and the box the plates were stored in
37:10 Coffin Canes
54:00 David Whitmer Chest & Martin Harris Leather Wallet
54:45 John Taylor Watch
57:45 Mormon Gold Coins
59:00 They are substandard
01:03:10 Hyrum Smith’s Sunglasses
01:03:55 Book of Abraham Printing Plates
01:11:10 Oliver Cowdery’s Rod of Aaron
01:20:00 James Rafael update
01:26:50 Caller: Captain Moroni
01:32:30 Caller: Kate on Nauvoo pageant
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Obscure Mormon Artifacts: Mormonism Live: 139 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Corporate Corruption: Mormonism LIVE: 138** Jul 27, 2023
RFM and Bill Reel are joined by Spencer who shares the latest from the Widows Mite Report (https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/) and share their latest reveal calling into question the perception that the Deseret Mutual Benefit Administration (DMBA) was at the same time Ensign Peak was being investigated, allegedly doing the same funny business as Ensign Peak was in not filing 13F forms disclosing investment assets. Spencer runs us through the data and informs us that an anonymous person has filed complaints with the SEC. He shows that Beneficial Life may have also been doing the same thing. We are informed that a familiar face was on the board of DMBA and we also learn about “Plan Z”. While the Church has considered the SEC escapade closed, it appears that these prophets may not have seen around corners.

Widow’s Mite Report on the DMBA – https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/dmba/

LDS Charities Report showing Roger Clarke on the board – https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/ldsc/

SEC Report – https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf

Church’s official Response to previous infraction – https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-issues-statement-on-sec-settlement

Mormonism Live covering the SEC scandal – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81zb4ZQx6gM

The post Mormon Corporate Corruption: Mormonism LIVE: 138 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon to Millionaire: Sam Brannan & the Brooklyn: Mormonism LIVE: 137** Jul 20, 2023
Join us on a captivating episode as we explore the multifaceted life of Samuel Brannan, a charismatic leader who played a pivotal role in both in Mormonism and the California Gold Rush. We trace Brannan’s journey from his membership in Mormonism, to his leading a group of Mormon pioneers on the perilous voyage of the Brooklyn, and his transformation into a savvy businessman and perhaps California’s first millionaire. Learn about the voyage of the Brooklyn as we examine the motivations behind this perilous journey, tracing it back to the religious aspirations of the Mormon community at the time. Delve into the trials and triumphs faced by the passengers, the challenges of sea travel during that era, and the subsequent impact of the voyage on the development of Mormon settlements in California. We discuss Brannan and the Mormons arrival in California, and Brannan’s subsequent involvement in the booming industry around the California Gold Rush. Discover the complex legacy of Samuel Brannan, whose actions left an indelible mark on both religious and economic landscapes. This episode uncovers the unique intersection of faith, manifest destiny, and migration in American history.

**RESOURCES:**

Voyage of the Brooklyn Saints – Wikipedia
Mormon pioneers – Wikipedia

History of Ship Brooklyn Celebrated in California (churchofjesuschrist.org)

Ship Brooklyn | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation

Quest to Find the Painting of the Ship Brooklyn (familysearch.org)

Brooklyn, California – Wikipedia

Ship Brooklyn • FamilySearch

https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/uip/dial/article-pdf/21/3/46/1959236/45228009.pdf

True Community: Latter-day Saints in San Bernardino, 1851–1857 (churchofjesuschrist.org)

John M. Horner – Wikipedia

Ship Brooklyn Historical Marker (hmdb.org)

California’s Pioneer Era 1846-1886 | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation

California Beginnings: 1846 | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)

LDS Church in California | ChurchOfJesusChristWikia | Fandom

Mormon Pioneers 1846 ship Brooklyn (geni.com)

So. Cal. Settlers | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation

Brooklyn – Oakland – LocalWiki

California Beginnings: 1846 | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)

The Mormon Battalion: Recent discoveries help unravel mysteries after 175 years – LDS Living

Samuel Brannan and the Gold Rush Historical Marker (hmdb.org)

Samuel Brannan – Wikipedia

Latter-day Scoundrel Sam Brannan (historynet.com)

Thomas Rhoads | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation

Clarksville | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation

The San Bernardino Colony: 1851–57 | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)

When Mormons dominated Yerba Buena (sfgate.com)

New Hope | California Pioneer Heritage Foundation

WT-Guide-to-Mormon-Historical-Sites.pdf (museumoflocalhistory.org)

The Mormon Ship Brooklyn Sailing into 1800s San Francisco – The Maritime Heritage Project

Mormon Trails (churchofjesuschrist.org)

California Living History | Welcome…

California, Pioneer Settlements in – The Encyclopedia of Mormonism (byu.edu)

Picturing history: Sam Brannan and the Brooklyn – Deseret News

The Saga of the Brooklyn: 1845–46 | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)

Samuel Brannan – Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion – MormonWiki

viewcontent.cgi (byu.edu)

PAGE ONE — S.F.’s Devilish Mormon Finally Gets His Due (sfgate.com)

Herald of the Gold Rush: Sam Brannan on JSTOR

Samuel “Sam” Brannan (1819-1889) – Find a Grave Memorial

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dKtGvl-urzU/YLxqHGhBGtI/AAAAAAAAIlA/cXCAAxPk03ACy4EiMKdoXLc5zKpF2H3AACLcBGAsYHQ/s1950/Brannan%2Bcal.jpg

Samuel Brannan – The First Millionaire of the West | Econproph [U.S. Economic History]
https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/9649/rec/3
https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/9668/rec/3
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Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Mormon to Millionaire: Sam Brannan & the Brooklyn: Mormonism LIVE: 137 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Ouija Board Baptisms: Mormonism LIVE!: 136** Jul 13, 2023
In this episode of Mormonism LIVE we delve into the original research of this little known episode in Church history involving the Theatre, Temple Endowments, and a Ouija board Message leading to baptisms.

**RESOURCES:**
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ARFAX-zs-C36Wgs3GYcCO8kPpis1MnWA/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ucVVdrjBDAJwiIns-po2_EXM7d9u_R01/view?pli=1
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m

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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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The post Ouija Board Baptisms: Mormonism LIVE!: 136 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**KJV & JST – The Devaluing of Mormon Scripture and Translation: ML: 135** Jul 06, 2023
Join us as we explore the intriguing viewpoints of Professor Thomas Wayment and podcaster Rick Bennett, who present perspectives that deviate from past LDS theology regarding the King James Bible (KJV) and the Joseph Smith Translation (JST). We analyze their claims, examining the ways in which their perspectives challenge traditional understandings of these revered texts within the context of Latter-Day Saint belief. Through this exploration, we uncover the complex interplay between scholarship, personal interpretations, and the evolving landscape of Mormon theology.

RESOURCES:
https://youtu.be/L6kkhSHX4Ok
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/king-james-bible-400-years
https://rsc.byu.edu/king-james-bible-restoration/latter-day-saint-edition-king-james-bible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_and_the_King_James_Bible
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1992/08/news-of-the-church/first-presidency-statement-on-the-king-james-version-of-the-bible?lang=eng
https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Joseph_Smith_Translation_of_the_Bible_(JST)
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/why-the-king-james-version-from-the-common-to-the-official-bible-of-mormonism/
https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Bible
https://rsc.byu.edu/sites/default/files/pub_content/pdf/38%20The%20King%20James%20Translation%20of%20the%20New%20Testament.pdf
https://youtu.be/LyhV-E79ccc?t=158
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyhV-E79ccc&t=410s
https://rsc.byu.edu/book/joseph-smith-translation
https://rsc.byu.edu/how-new-testament-came-be/adding-taking-away-without-cause-matthew-522
https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-smith-translation/doctrinal-restoration
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V22N02_21.pdf
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V36N01_171.pdf

The clips from this show were used from The Gospel Tangents Podcast Episode titled
“Thomas Wayment Responds to Adam Clarke Controversy (1 of 2)”
https://gospeltangents.com/2023/05/thomas-wayment-adam-clarke/
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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The post KJV & JST – The Devaluing of Mormon Scripture and Translation: ML: 135 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Polygamy Nightmare: ML: 134** Jun 29, 2023
Mormon Polygamy Nightmare: Mormonism Live: 134 Nightmares are scary and some nightmares are real. In this gripping episode of Mormonism LIVE, we delve into the extraordinary journey of a woman who lived within a Mormon polygamous relationship. Through an intimate and eye-opening interview, she shares her harrowing experiences, the challenges she faced, and the inspiring story of her escape from the clutches of polygamy As the conversation unfolds, listeners are transported into the center of a polygamous family that is shrouded in secrecy and patriarchal dominance. We delve into the origins of her involvement in the polygamous relationship, exploring how religious beliefs were exploited to justify the practice and perpetuate control over women. Tune in to this riveting episode and join us on an emotional and enlightening journey as we unveil the shadows that hide behind closed doors, empower survivors, and shed light on the resilience of the human spirit.

Chapters: 03:15 Meet “Abby” 04:15 The hunt for a straight, single man leads to…Mormonism?

11:30 “the Lord wants us in Las Vegas”

14:30 Becoming bored with Mormonism

28:25 Hunting for new wives

34:15 “What is going through your head?”

37:00 Abby’s husband “earns” his 2nd anointing but Abby refuses

42:00 Trying to bring home Filipina wife 45:15 Cancer diagnosis & death

57:30 21 minutes and 23 seconds ()

01:02:00 Abby finally starts looks

01:03:00 Mormonism LIVE is the final straw

01:06:05 Lessons learned

01:21:15 Live calls

Mormonism LIVE & the Occult: https://youtube.com/live/ULG2Uk3ggDg
___________________
Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode. Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years.

Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m

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Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Mormon Polygamy Nightmare: ML: 134 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Smoking Gun That Joseph Smith Practiced Polygamy: MD: 388** Jun 29, 2023
On this Episode of Mormon Discussion we lay out the Smoking Gun that imposes that Polygamy be placed at the feet of joseph Smith For those doing research the following resources will allow you to trace my steps

PDF used for the Show –
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/Smoking-Gun-Land-Deeds.pdf

Document containing all the research
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/All-Women-Deeded-Land-Alone.pdf

This site contains tons of data on these folks and the deeds
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1388212?availability=Family%20History%20Library

**Contents:**
v. 1. A-B http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/298595

v. 2. C-F http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/325241

v. 3. G-J http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/321604

v. 4. K-M http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/324755

v. 5. N-R http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/325125

v. 6. S http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/296259

v. 7. T-Z. http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/532853

The post The Smoking Gun That Joseph Smith Practiced Polygamy: MD: 388 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism Live: 133: The Fresh King Benjamin ( @thefreshkingbenjamin )** Jun 22, 2023
The Mormonism Live crew takes a much needed break for June 21st being joined by upcoming “Mormon” comedian Ben Brown known as “The Fresh King Benjamin”. Ben’s humor deeply connects to his own journey in and deconstruction of fundamentalist Mormonism and the episode is sure to be an enjoyable entertaining evening.

Ben’s Stand Up: https://youtu.be/XBx5g6FOEaM Ben’s
Insta:https://www.instagram.com/thefreshkingbenjamin/
Ben’s Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thefreshkingbenjamin
Ben’s website: https://www.thefreshkingbenjamin.com/
Support Ben’s charity for families leaving polygamy: https://cherishfamilies.org/get-involved/donate.html

Welcome to “Mormonism Live,” the ultimate talk show that delves into the messiness of Mormon history and theology while also tackling current events with a live call-in section at the end of every episode.
Hosted by two trusted voices in the Mormon community, Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel, this podcast has been taking on the tough issues and exploring the nuances of the LDS faith for years. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today: https://mormonismlive.org/2020/12/mormonism-live/?default_interval=m
Take a look at our Merch! https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions
Sign up for our (mostly) quarterly newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P Our Platforms:
MormonDiscussions.org, MormonismLIVE.org
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/19LxPcTdYUeBhEqUaZNCFm
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormonism-live/id1546629841
Connect on Social Media: Private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1307897462893835
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https://twitter.com/MormonDisc
Contact us: MormonDiscussionsPodcasts@gmail.com #MormonismLive #MormonDiscussions #RadioFreeMormon
Mormon Discussion Inc is a 501(c)(3) and is in the arena of journalistic work and is part of a free press. Any of the awesome content or the solid opinions expressed, implied or included in Mormon Discussion Inc’s podcast lineup and production are solely those of Mormon Discussion Inc. and/or its program hosts and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The post Mormonism Live: 133: The Fresh King Benjamin ( @thefreshkingbenjamin ) appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**What Can We Say About the Nature Of Reality: Mormon Discussion: 387** Jun 20, 2023
Bill Reel and Gabe go for round 2 of looking at the nature of reality. They look at various models of seeing the world, check in on Modern Science such as Quantum Physics, and share insights from their own learning and experience to investigate if the world we all believe we are seeing is in fact reality.

The post What Can We Say About the Nature Of Reality: Mormon Discussion: 387 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Magic Parchments: Mormonism LIVE: 132** Jun 15, 2023
Dan Vogel sits down with RFM & Bill not only to talk about his new book “Charisma under Pressure: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1831–1839” but to also flesh out some of the incredible ideas in his recent YouTube video “Joseph Smith, the Necromancer”.
**RESOURCES:**
Twilit Grotto — Esoteric Archives – esotericarchives.com/
Old Bountiful Museum – World of Urban Legends – worldofurbanlegends.com/old-bountiful-museum/
Oracles and Talismans, Forgery and Pansophia: Joseph Smith. Jr. as a Renaissance Magus – General Discussions – Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board – mormondialogue.org/topic/69738-oracles-and-talismans-forgery-and-pansophia-joseph-smith-jr-as-a-renaissance-magus/
Wilford C. Wood – Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion – MormonWiki – mormonwiki.com/Wilford_C._Wood
A-Man-of-Vision-and-Determination-A-Photographic-Essay-and-Tribute-to-Wilford-C.-Wood.pdf (ensignpeakfoundation.org) – ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/A-Man-of-Vision-and-Determination-A-Photographic-Essay-and-Tribute-to-Wilford-C.-Wood.pdf
Story behind Joseph and Hyrum Death Masks – Joseph Smith Jr and Emma Hale Smith Historical Society – josephsmithjr.org/joseph-and-hyrum-death-masks/
Framing a 17th Century Work on Parchment – Bark Frameworks –

The post Mormon Magic Parchments: Mormonism LIVE: 132 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Evidence that Joseph Smith was a Polygamist: ML: 131** Jun 08, 2023
There is a raging debate within Mormon circles where those folks who are determined to maintain belief in the Prophet Joseph Smith but who abhor polygamy and the Church as ran by Brigham Young and after have found ways to dismiss the standard evidence that Mormonism’s founder was a polygamist. They interpret the evidence as made up by Brigham Young and those around him in an effort to draw Joseph Smith into a practice he never participated in. Stories of fabricating history, backdating prophesy, and discrediting witnesses. On this week’s episode Bill & RFM with a few friends take a look at the evidence and to see if one has compelling reasons to believe Joseph Smith was, in fact, a polygamist!

MAIN CONCLUSIONS DRAWN FROM REASON

1.) Clayton Journal Entries can be shown to be reliable

2.) D&C 132 is shown to be reliable as the text of the revelation that Smith received

3.) There is substantial Evidence that imposes that Smith originated and perpetuated Polygamy

4.) Hyrum Smith read the revelation in a High Council Meeting and Joseph and Hyrum tried to excuse the revelation away in the Nauvoo City Council but not a the way that allows Polygamy deniers to impose a narrative of “Eternity Only Sealings” or “Dynastic Sealings”. Hence they must confront why Hyrum and Joseph don’t respond using the narrative they have created.

5.) That any attempt to explain Joseph’s practice as “eternal only” and not time is irrational in light of Hyrum and Joseph’s attempt to walk back the doctrine/revelation of plural marriage by explaining it was in regards to former times and had nothing to do with the present. In other words Dynastic Sealings or relationships in the hereafter that are not binding or sexual in this life is not going to strike fear and anger and rebelliousness in Emma, along with pushback and resentment in Marks, Cowles, and Soby and can be explained without embarrassment. But when Joseph and Hyrum tip their hand by making the excuse that this revelation is about former times and not the present, we can rationally conclude this wasn’t eternal only or dynastic relationships that lacked sex or marriage in this life.(While we didn’t show it, Orange Wight’s autobiography also imposes that Smith had Flora Woodworth as a wife and he was notified that because of such, she was taken. Hence this wasn’t a eternity only relationship.)

If you want to see the documents and the notes about what these documents show. Check out the three part Reddit Posts on the topic..

Part 1:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144aaam/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/

Part 2:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144ahjo/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/

Part 3:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/144aqlr/the_evidence_laid_out_that_joseph_smith_was_the/

RESOURCES:
https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/year-of-polygamy/episode-94-polygamy-controversies-joseph-fought-polygamy/

https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/year-of-polygamy/episode-139-joseph-didnt-fight-polygamy-part-one/

https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/uncategorized/episode-139-joseph-didnt-fight-polygamy-part-two/

https://sunstone.org/e41-brigham-young-and-the-chamber-of-secrets/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZQwyhhFczU

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24243807
This link has the url’s for the Land Deeds of Joseph’s plural wives

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/y90sbz/joseph_smith_acted_unethically_giving_away_church/

https://archive.org/details/history-of-the-saints-1842-john-c-bennett/page/n9/mode/2up?view=theater – John C Bennett History of the Saints

http://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100526.pdf Nauvoo Expositor

Joseph F. Smith Affidavits – http://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JS0361.doc
https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/MMD/id/59430/rec/1 – Clayton Diary
https://archive.org/details/WilliamClaytonJournal/page/n13/mode/2up – Clayton page 106 search for plural

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-from-oliver-cowdery-21-january-1838/1 Cowdery to his brother

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/281385.William_Clayton

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/281385.William_Clayton

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/record/915fc5f1-4f65-4131-800a-4eaee3604f3c/37a65922-1a7e-4e6c-9e5b-fa5104b53cbe?view=browse – affidavits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUtmzt3fJc&t=1193s&pp=ygUQaGFwcGluZXNzIGxldHRlcg%3D%3D – Happiness Letter Examination

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43200169 – “Illicit Intercourse,” Plural Marriage, and the Nauvoo Stake High Council, 1840-1844 Gary James Bergera

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-12-july-1843-dc-132/1#historical-intro – Kingsbury 132 Revelation

https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/187/oa_monograph/chapter/201655/pdf – Junius and Joseph
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43200716 – The Changing RLDS Response to Mormon Polygamy: A Preliminary Analysis Richard P. Howard

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40193596 – Buckeye’s Laments: Two Early Insider Exposés of Mormon Polygamy and Their Authorship Gary James Bergera

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Joseph-Smith%E2%80%99s-Plural-Wives-after-the-Martyrdom.pdf

https://www.reluctantpolygamist.com/reluctant-polygamist/revealing-the-doctrine-1843-1844/20-revealing-the-revelation/#_edn11

http://boap.org/LDS/Nauvoo-Neighbor/1844/6-19-1844.pdf

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/7226d36f-b3a5-4c0e-9d0c-33d87d46ffb4/0/3?lang=eng

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/be940fbd-8fff-410f-b022-bb18d2d8f63c/0/0?lang=eng

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/c6746061-f36c-46ed-8961-03f8c2369d5d/0/85?lang=eng

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/e8b138df-18a0-46d8-be8a-0b06292a0795/0/0?lang=eng

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/e7896b07-224e-4dd8-8790-b7f995838c46/0/13

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/a51f8c5d-45c3-47c5-aad4-be3f363dfca9/0/0?lang=eng

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/journal-december-1842-june-1844-book-2-10-march-1843-14-july-1843/263#x921FC028-A4C0-44AF-B35A-EFF029AA3868

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/50c87119-ed1d-4492-b6ff-f60b3e1ac976/0/0?lang=eng

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/Lucy-Walker-Marriage-Document.pdf

https://lifecanbesilly.blogspot.com/2018/09/martha-brotherton-affidavit-polygamy.html

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/5e60e513-bfaa-4619-908c-4c4ac7b8b6b7/0/0?lang=eng

https://myallredfamily.com/front-page/what-states/utah/family-histories/james-allred-by-j-terry-walker/

https://familypedia.fandom.com/wiki/David_Fullmer_(1803-1879)

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/HCoray.html.

https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/polygamy-proposals

The post The Evidence that Joseph Smith was a Polygamist: ML: 131 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**What Can We Say About the Nature Of Reality: MD: 386** Jun 05, 2023
Bill Reel and Gabe take a long look at the nature of reality. They look at various models of seeing the world, check in on Modern Science such as Quantum Physics, and share insights from their own learning and experience to investigate if the world we all believe we are seeing is in fact reality.

The post What Can We Say About the Nature Of Reality: MD: 386 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Seminary Teacher Schools Church Historian: Mormonism Live: 130** Jun 01, 2023
A former seminary teacher got the opportunity to present lots of his questions to the Church Historian recently. Wait till you hear what happened!

**RESOURCES:**

Transcript – http://radiofreemormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/ELDER-BALLARD-BLOWS-UP-THE-CHURCH-TRANSCRIPT.pdf
Episode – https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/11/radio-free-mormon-021-elder-ballard-blows-church/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/prophets-and-fallibility/
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/the-mormon-truth-crisis/
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/the-mormon-paradox/

Joe’s Document “In Defense of Doubt” – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/In-Defense-of-Doubt-Final.pdf
Elder McKay’s Letter back to him – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/Elder-McKays-Letter.pdf

The post Seminary Teacher Schools Church Historian: Mormonism Live: 130 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**MD: 385: Honest Conversations About Faith: A Testimony of the Restored Gospel: w/ Jacob Hansen & Bill Reel** May 26, 2023
Rarely in Mormonism do people in disagreement sit down to enter conversations about the issues upon which they disagree with understanding and healthy dialogue being at the forefront. But LDS Faithful believer Jacob Hansen and Ex-Mormon atheist Bill Reel sit down to discuss a Mormon Testimony, how one could arrive at a LDS Testimony, and how one derives confidence in it. The goal of this conversation as well as any that may follow or come before is to create a space where both parties seek to best understand the other’s point of view and to have a safe space to add clarity and context to one’s perspective to ensure as little misunderstanding as possible. The hope is that these conversations give listeners a well rounded view of controversial issues so that they might be able to work out their own thoughts, beliefs, and perspectives in a safe environment and to show both sides that healthy disagreement can in fact happen.

Jacob Hansen Bio: Jacob is a Life long member of the LDS Church (His Mom is a convert) He served a mission in Argentina 2005-2007 Jacob graduated at BYU Hawaii with a Business Degree He is a Podcaster, Youtuber, Blogger He is the only one of his 8 siblings still active in the church. He has served primarily in the young men’s organization in his ward for the past 10 years including recently serving as 2nd and then 1st counselor in ward bishopric. Primary interests: Philosophy, History, Religion, Sailing, Surfing, JiuJitsu, Hunting, Adventures. He married his college sweetheart in 2010 and they have 4 kids.

Bill Reel bio: Bill was a convert to the LDS Church at 17 years old. He served as a Bishop in that same ward from the age of 29 to 34. While a sitting Bishop, Bill had a faith crisis and began deconstructing his beliefs going so far as to deconstruct Christ and God. While Bill is satisfied with the label of Atheist he also considers himself a mystic and drawn to secular Buddhism. Bill is the Executive Director for the Non-Profit Mormon Discussion Inc and host/co-hosts several podcasts including Mormonism LIVE and the Almost Awakened Podcast. Bill and his wife have been married 25 years and they have 4 children and 3 grandkids and they reside in Washington Utah

**RESOURCES:**

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/prophets-and-fallibility/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/the-mormon-truth-crisis/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/the-mormon-paradox/

https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

The post MD: 385: Honest Conversations About Faith: A Testimony of the Restored Gospel: w/ Jacob Hansen & Bill Reel appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism Live: 129: How The Mormon Church Got Its Name** May 25, 2023

In this video we delve into the history behind how the LDS Church came to have its name and how its official name has changed from its inception to today. And along the way we learn about the use and meaning of the word Mormon as well as how the Church went from “Latter Day Saints” to Latter-day Saints” and you won’t believe how much went into a hyphen and a lower case letter d.

**RESOURCES**:

https://archive.org/details/EveningAndMorningStar18321834/page/n161/mode/2up – 1834 change to Church of the Latter Day Saints

https://byustudies.byu.edu/online-chapters/volume-2-chapter-5/ – History of The Church noting the 1834 Name change

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=eng

https://archive.org/details/TimesAndSeasonsVol4/page/n307/mode/2up

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43668-new-evidence-that-church-was-organized-at-fayette/
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-commandments-1833/14
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-march-1829-dc-5/1#source-note

The post Mormonism Live: 129: How The Mormon Church Got Its Name appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Atheist Morality: Mormon Discussion: 384** May 23, 2023
Recently Bill Reel had a conversation with a active believer on Morality in Episodes #381 & #382. Today Bill sits down with Spencer Wright to carry that conversation further by talking about how Atheists form Morality and whether such morality can in fact take us into the future.

The post Atheist Morality: Mormon Discussion: 384 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Spirituality: Now and Then! w/ Carah Burrell & Bill Reel: MD: 383** May 23, 2023
Most of us as believers had experiences we would define as spiritual. As we deconstructed our religious world we had to confront those experiences and look at them, sit with what they were and weren’t and attempt to re-define them in a way that allowed us to make sense of them within the lens of our Mormon faith not being true. Today Carah and Bill discuss their past spiritual experiences and discuss ways they have been able to confront and process those in light of deconstruction.

The post Spirituality: Now and Then! w/ Carah Burrell & Bill Reel: MD: 383 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Honest Conversations About Faith with Jacob Hansen & Bill Reel – Session 2 – Faith Crises: MD: 382** May 23, 2023
Rarely in Mormonism do people in disagreement sit down to enter conversations about the issues upon which they disagree with understanding and healthy dialogue being at the forefront. But LDS Faithful believer Jacob Hansen and Ex-Mormon atheist Bill Reel sit down to discuss Faith Crises, what they are and what they mean for those going through them. The goal of this conversation as well as any that may follow or come before is to create a space where both parties seek to best understand the other’s point of view and to have a safe space to add clarity and context to one’s perspective to ensure as little misunderstanding as possible. The hope is that these conversations give listeners a well rounded view of controversial issues so that they might be able to work out their own thoughts, beliefs, and perspectives in a safe environment and to show both sides that healthy disagreement can in fact happen.

Jacob Hansen Bio: Jacob is a Life long member of the LDS Church (His Mom is a convert) He served a mission in Argentina 2005-2007 Jacob graduated at BYU Hawaii with a Business Degree He is a Podcaster, Youtuber, Blogger He is the only one of his 8 siblings still active in the church. He has served primarily in the young men’s organization in his ward for the past 10 years including recently serving as 2nd and then 1st counselor in ward bishopric. Primary interests: Philosophy, History, Religion, Sailing, Surfing, JiuJitsu, Hunting, Adventures. He married his college sweetheart in 2010 and they have 4 kids.

Bill Reel bio: Bill was a convert to the LDS Church at 17 years old. He served as a Bishop in that same ward from the age of 29 to 34. While a sitting Bishop, Bill had a faith crisis and began deconstructing his beliefs going so far as to deconstruct Christ and God. While Bill is satisfied with the label of Atheist he also considers himself a mystic and drawn to secular Buddhism. Bill is the Executive Director for the Non-Profit Mormon Discussion Inc and host/co-hosts several podcasts including Mormonism LIVE and the Almost Awakened Podcast. Bill and his wife have been married 25 years and they have 4 children and 3 grandkids and they reside in Washington Utah

**RESOURCES:**

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/ages-and-stages.pdf

https://mormondiscussions.org/discussion/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/12/Perry-Scheme.pdf

https://psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html

https://mormondiscussions.org/discussion/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/12/IntegralMapBest.jpg

http://www.thebattleofarmageddon.com/stages_of_faith.pdf

homepage

The post Honest Conversations About Faith with Jacob Hansen & Bill Reel – Session 2 – Faith Crises: MD: 382 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Honest Conversations About Faith with Jacob Hansen & Bill Reel – Session 1 – Morality: MD: 381** May 23, 2023
Honest Conversations About Faith w/ Jacob Hansen & Bill Reel: Session 1: Morality Rarely in Mormonism do people in disagreement sit down to enter conversations about the issues upon which they disagree with understanding and healthy dialogue being at the forefront. But LDS Faithful believer Jacob Hansen and Ex-Mormon atheist Bill Reel sit down to discuss Morality. The goal of this conversation as well as any that may follow is to create a space where both parties seek to best understand the other’s point of view and to have a safe space to add clarity and context to one’s perspective to ensure as little misunderstanding as possible. The hope is that these conversations give listeners a well rounded view of controversial issues so that they might be able to work out their own thoughts, beliefs, and perspectives in a safe environment and to show both sides that healthy disagreement can in fact happen.

Jacob Hansen Bio: Jacob is a Life long member of the LDS Church (His Mom is a convert) He served a mission in Argentina 2005-2007 Jacob graduated at BYU Hawaii with a Business Degree He is a Podcaster, Youtuber, Blogger He is the only one of his 8 siblings still active in the church. He has served primarily in the young men’s organization in his ward for the past 10 years including recently serving as 2nd and then 1st counselor in ward bishopric. Primary interests: Philosophy, History, Religion, Sailing, Surfing, JiuJitsu, Hunting, Adventures. He married his college sweetheart in 2010 and they have 4 kids.

Bill Reel bio: Bill was a convert to the LDS Church at 17 years old. He served as a Bishop in that same ward from the age of 29 to 34. While a sitting Bishop, Bill had a faith crisis and began deconstructing his beliefs going so far as to deconstruct Christ and God. While Bill is satisfied with the label of Atheist he also considers himself a mystic and drawn to secular Buddhism. Bill is the Executive Director for the Non-Profit Mormon Discussion Inc and host/co-hosts several podcasts including Mormonism LIVE and the Almost Awakened Podcast. Bill and his wife have been married 25 years and they have 4 children and 3 grandkids and they reside in Washington Utah

The post Honest Conversations About Faith with Jacob Hansen & Bill Reel – Session 1 – Morality: MD: 381 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Gone In 60 Minutes: Mormonism Live: 128** May 18, 2023
This past week 60 Minutes the CBS TV Journalism Show covered the event of the Church having its finances exposed by whistleblower David Nielson. We take a look at what was said…. and what wasn’t in this weeks episode of Mormonism LIVE! “David Nielsen is a former investment manager for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who became a whistleblower regarding the church’s finances and tax-exempt status. Nielsen accused the church of hoarding billions of dollars it has not paid taxes on and asked the IRS to strip the church of its tax-exempt status. Nielsen argued that the church owes billions in taxes, and he wants a cut of that as part of a reward offered by the IRS for reporting tax-related offenses.”

**RESOURCES:**
(2038) Mormon whistleblower: Church’s investment firm masquerades as charity | 60 Minutes – YouTube
60 Minutes – Bishop defends the Church’s investment fund | Facebook (60 Minutes Overtime)
The Perpetual Education Fund (churchofjesuschrist.org)
The Perpetual Education Fund (churchofjesuschrist.org) (Gordon Hinckley’s talk)
Structure of the Corporation of The President / Bishopric (Actual LDS “Church”) | Exploring Mormonism (LDS HOLDINGS)
A look at the LDS Church’s legal legacy as a corporation (The Merging of the two corporations)
https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/60minutes/

The post Gone In 60 Minutes: Mormonism Live: 128 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**The Greek Psalter Incident – Another Tale of Translation: Mormonism LIVE: 127** May 11, 2023
The story of Joseph Smith and Henry Caswall (Caswell) and the Greek Psalter incident is a historical event that took place in 1842 in Nauvoo Ill.. During his visit to Nauvoo, Illinois, where the Mormon Church was headquartered at the time, Caswall met with Joseph Smith. Caswall showed The Prophet a ancient document which Caswall knew to be a “Greek Psalter” or book of Psalms in the Greek language. Caswall claimed that Smith insisted the Psalter was actually a Dictionary for Egyptian Hieroglyphics book was a translation of an ancient record that he had received through divine revelation. Caswall declared that it was nothing more than an ancient Greek Psalter.

As RFM and Bill dig into this story they discover that that Mormonism fares worse than we first thought and the problems reach as high as Jacob’s Ladder.

**Don’t forget to like and subscrib**e
EXMOSHIRTS – https://www.exmoshirts.com/collections/mormondiscussions
MAILING LIST SIGNUP FORM – http://eepurl.com/hrnr4P

**RESOURCES:**
http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1840s/1842Cas1.htm
http://www.mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v4n23.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek_Psalter_Incident
https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/BOMP/id/3750
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/byusq/vol35/iss4/8/
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3085&context=byusq https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_misidentify_a_Greek_%22psalter%22_as_a_containing_%22reformed_Egyptian%22_hieroglyphics%3F

The Greek Psalter Incident

https://lifeafter.org/greek-psalter-incident/
https://rsc.byu.edu/approaching-antiquity-joseph-smith-ancient-world/joseph-smiths-awareness-greek-latin https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The_Greek_Psalter_Incident
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/il/sign1843.htm#1118
https://web.archive.org/web/20130701182744/
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display/pdf.php?table=review&id=513
http://www.truthandgrace.com/The_city_of_the_Mormons.pdf
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragment-of-book-of-breathing-for-horos-a-between-238-and-circa-153-bc/1
https://archive.org/details/cityofmormonsort01casw/page/20/mode/2up
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragment-of-book-of-the-dead-for-nefer-ir-nebu-circa-300-100-bc/1
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragment-of-book-of-breathing-for-horos-a-between-238-and-circa-153-bc/1
https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/details-photo/the-weighing-of-souls-chapter-125-of-the-book-of-the-dead-detail-of-the-papyrus-of-tasnakht-egyptian-civilisation-late-period/DAE-11127820

The post The Greek Psalter Incident – Another Tale of Translation: Mormonism LIVE: 127 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormons & Muskets with Jim Bennett: Mormonism Live: 126** May 04, 2023
RFM and Bill sit down with Jim Bennett to discuss his recent appearances on “Midnight Mormons” and take a look at all the rhetoric around violence in Mormonism including the musket talk by Elder Holland but with an updated and focused discussion around whether such a talk is fueling the very violent threats and rhetoric that critics of Holland’s talk have suggested could be the outgrowth of the “Musket” talk and the lack of the LDS Church in official channels condemning such rhetoric.

**RESOURCES:**
207: Nephi’s Faith Transition – Mormon Discussions Podcasts – Full Lineup (mormondiscussionpodcast.org)
Radio Free Mormon: 18: Make Way For Dodos – Radio Free Mormon
The Trial of Jim Bennett! – YouTube
The Trial of Jim Bennett! – YouTube
The Trial of Jim Bennett! – YouTube
The Trial of Jim Bennett! – YouTube
The Trial of Guatemax! – YouTube
Radio Free Mormon VS Midnight Mormons – The Debate – YouTube
The Trial of Guatemax! – YouTube
The Trial of Guatemax! – YouTube
The Trial of Guatemax! – YouTube

The post Mormons & Muskets with Jim Bennett: Mormonism Live: 126 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Bonus Audio: “Mormonish” Podcast Interviews Bill Reel** Apr 28, 2023
Bill Reel had the pleasure of being interviewed on the “Mormonish” Podcast. Below are the original links to their Youtube Video and their Podcast Audio of that Interview. Bill gets really vulnerable discussing his journey, his life and along the way delves into human development, conscious altering tools, sexuality, and spiritual awakening. If you want to get to know Bill better this interview had him delving into topics and and being vulnerable to a degree that doesn’t always occur.
EP31: Bill Reel Gets Real: : Psychedelics, Sexuality, and Discovering Your Authentic Self https://youtu.be/24u4rBis230
**RESOURCES:**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24u4rBis230
https://player.captivate.fm/episode/5dd2d7df-f581-4294-9b78-72c39ac83061

The post Bonus Audio: “Mormonish” Podcast Interviews Bill Reel appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism Live: 125: Gospel Fully Restored or Just The Beginning Of An Ongoing Restoration?** Apr 27, 2023
When the Phrase “Ongoing Restoration” showed up around 2020 Critics paused as this seemed to be the Church saying something different as if the Church now wanted the restoration to be much earlier in its stage of development than had been intimated in the past. So Bill & RFM take long look over Mormonism’s history to see what has been said and what it might mean.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/01/26/mormon-land-how-lds/

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/latter-day-saint-prophet-wife-apostle-share-insights-global-ministry?lang=eng#churchofjesuschrist

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/04/the-ongoing-restoration?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/10/the-gathering-of-scattered-israel?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/11/truth-restored?lang=eng
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/SUNDAY-INTERVIEW-Musings-of-the-Main-Mormon-2846138.php
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-ldzfaB33n8oXeI00ttom_i6WUTGeFPD?usp=share_linkhttps://speeches.byu.edu/talks/gary-e-stevenson/the-ongoing-restoration/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKH4vU1EiB4

The post Mormonism Live: 125: Gospel Fully Restored or Just The Beginning Of An Ongoing Restoration? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Biblical Scholarship with Dan McClellan: Mormonism LIVE: 124** Apr 24, 2023
In this week’s edition, RFM and Bill sit down with Dan McClellan, former scripture translation supervisor for the LDS Church. Dan received his bachelor’s degree from Brigham Young University in ancient Near Eastern studies, where he focused on Biblical Hebrew and minored in Classical Greek. He completed a master of studies in Jewish studies at the University of Oxford in July of 2010 and a master of arts in biblical studies at Trinity Western University just outside of Vancouver, BC. His areas of specialization are Second Temple Judaism, early Israelite religion, and textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible. **RESOURCES:** https://rsc.byu.edu/author/mcclellan-daniel-o https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan?lang=endanielomcclellan.com/ https://hcommons.org/members/maklelan/ https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-20-no-2-2019/far-it-translated-correctly-bible-translation-church
The post Biblical Scholarship with Dan McClellan: Mormonism LIVE: 124 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 123: Wood Tools vs Steel Tools w/ Jonathan Streeter** Apr 13, 2023
Years ago Jonathan Streeter wrote a blog post titled “Fix your faith crisis with this one weird trick!” that was deeply influential on Bill. So tonight we bring Streeter into the studio to discuss Wood Tools vs Steel Tools and tom recognize when wood tools are being used.

**RESOURCES**:

https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/fix-your-faith-crisis-with-this-one-weird-trick/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/08/premium-fix-faith-crisis-one-weird-trick-wood-vs-steel-tools/

https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 123: Wood Tools vs Steel Tools w/ Jonathan Streeter appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 122: GenCon CXCIII** Apr 06, 2023
This General Conference had lots of interesting twists and turns that have now had time to ruminate in the minds of RFM and Bill Reel. And this weeks episode involves a dive into the Mormon phenomena known as the April 2023 General Conference of the LDS Church.

**RESOURCES OF TALKS DISCUSSED:**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYdM8WyYM – Elder Ahmad S. Corbitt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWYXk_7uLbU – Elder Vern R. Stanfill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0jTa8FG7A8 – Elder Allen D. Haynie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9freQw16qY – Elder Carl B. Cook
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLplozLahP4 – Elder Gerrit W. Gong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQwObipvTJc – Elder D. Todd Christofferson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSmP5tnSevI – Elder Neil L. Andersen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQghSMOOYz4 – President Russell M. Nelson

The post Mormonism LIVE: 122: GenCon CXCIII appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 121: Joseph Smith’s First Vision in Context: A Comparative Analysis** Mar 30, 2023
Joseph Smith’s First Vision ushered in the restoration of the Gospel. It had Heavenly Father and His Son coming through the Heavens to visit the young boy in the spring of 1820. This vision leads to the founding of Mormonism. But what is not as well known is that in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s, everyone and their brother was having visions and many of them appear to be very similar to Joseph Smith’s. So in this week’s episode Bill and RFM do a comparative analysis on those other Visions to see what can be gleaned and its no small thing what they find.

**RESOURCES:**
https://web.archive.org/web/20180710083455/https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/theophany-mine/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned-over_district
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening https://archive.org/details/lifecon00smit/page/n13/mode/2up
http://www.mormonstudiespodcast.org/joseph-smith-elias-smith-and-wilford-poulson/
https://archive.org/details/TheReligiousExperienceOfNorrisStearns
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech6.htm
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/16
https://www.watchman.org/articles/mormonism/piecing-together-the-first-vision/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vision
https://rsc.byu.edu/exploring-first-vision/significance-joseph-smiths-first-vision-mormon-thought
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/accounts-of-the-first-vision
https://mit.irr.org/joseph-smiths-changing-first-vision-accounts
https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/joseph-smith/first-vision/
https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-prognostication-of-asa-wild/
http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/SChamberlain.html
https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-visionary-world-of-joseph-smith/
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/first-vision-plagiarized.html
https://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83032054/1831-02-01/ed-1/seq-5/
https://archive.org/details/SketchOfExperiencesOfSolomonChamberlin/mode/2up?view=theater&q=apo
http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/SChamberlain.html
https://hdl.huntington.org/digital/collection/p16003coll15/id/40132
https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/first-vision/
https://youtu.be/WB3iwEX8WhY?t=1306
https://rsc.byu.edu/exploring-first-vision/earliest-documented-accounts-joseph-smiths-first-vision
https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/2041501

The post Mormonism LIVE: 121: Joseph Smith’s First Vision in Context: A Comparative Analysis appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 120: Silencing Dissent – Mormon Style** Mar 23, 2023
Tonight RFM and Bill take a look at how both Top Church Leadership and local leaders extend pressure for dissenting voices to be silent. The episode will include individual stories along with the general instruction by top leaders to diminish dissenting voices and at times to altogether silence them.

**RESOURCES:**

Oaks “Its Wrong to Criticize Leaders” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxyiHLg59ks

Oaks “Questions Are Honored, Opposition is Not” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPeIgjZ0EQg&t=746s

Ballard – “Women don’t talk too much” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlQ4h6tGbnE

Bruce R McConkie – Echo what I Say or be Silent – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/mcconkie-to-eugene-england/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 120: Silencing Dissent – Mormon Style appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 380: Examining the LDS Prophetic Mantle** Mar 17, 2023
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be led by Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. That these men are special witnesses of Christ. That they speak to God and discern his will for us. Latter-day Saints are taught that these men are like Moses, Noah, and Abraham. We take a look at these claims to see if in fact there is observable evidence that can help us evaluate if these men are Prophets in deed.

**RESOURCES:**

Document exposing problems with LDS Truth Claims – https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yzkCZkhjp_WmU9n6xWjqO0-ivX-ppQ0HrRjy4ItZz-U/edit?usp=sharing

Document giving context to issues around the Messy issues of Mormonism – http://mormonprimer.com/

Dr. Lowery Nelson Correspondence with the First Presidency – ia903006.us.archive.org/29/items/LowryNelson1stPresidencyExchange/Lowry_Nelson_1st_Presidency_Exchange.pdf

Gospel Topic Essay on Race and Priesthood – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

Stewart Udall’s experience with Church Leadership on the topics of Race – http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/topics/thoughts-on-race-in-mormon-history/the-stewart-udall-sequence/

Document with all changed Doctrines and Beliefs – https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19X4zks7EW_e_TBqj67IZoxEMjqyAi7dtmapXag0s9_8/edit?usp=sharing

The post Mormon Discussion: 380: Examining the LDS Prophetic Mantle appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 118: How Mormons Twist Scripture to Worship Wealth w/ David Bokovoy** Mar 13, 2023
Many are going through great lengths to justify the massive hoards of wealth the Church has accumulated on the backs of its believers, even going as far as to use scripture. But do these scriptures REALLY justify the accumulation of wealth as the Church and its members would have you believe?

The post Mormonism LIVE: 118: How Mormons Twist Scripture to Worship Wealth w/ David Bokovoy appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 117: Changes To The Temple & The Ethics of Ensign Peak Advisors** Mar 02, 2023
In this week’s episode we discuss the recent news of the Temple Changes and just how far the original Endowment has been altered. And the Second half of the show will involve the recent legal settlement with the LDS Church and it’s Ensign Peak Advisors and culminating with RFM’s lightbulb moment sensing that the Landscape of Mormonism has changed and his novel idea around such. **Temple Changes Resources:** https://religionnews.com/2023/02/10/more-jesus-less-touching-14-changes-to-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/02/09/lds-temple-ceremonies-change/ https://www.mrm.org/revised-lds-temple-endowment-ceremony-now-includes-more-pictures-of-jesus **SEC Alleged Fraud RESOURCES:** SEC Report – https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf SEC Press statement – https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35 Church Response – https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-issues-statement-on-sec-settlement https://bycommonconsent.com/2023/02/21/the-church-the-investment-advisor-and-the-sec/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/27/heres-deeper-look-how-lds/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/27/heres-deeper-look-how-lds/ RFM’s Lawsuit Idea https://youtu.be/hgUwpXSNlXM
The post Mormonism LIVE: 117: Changes To The Temple & The Ethics of Ensign Peak Advisors appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 116: Who Really Killed Joseph Smith?** Feb 23, 2023
On June 27th 1844, Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, was martyred at Carthage Jail by a mob. Or at least that is how the generally accepted story goes. In the last 8 months, Justin Griffin (Director & Producer) and Steve Sorensen (Film Maker), have shared their research that maybe things are not what we have been told. They present their experts, their research, and their conclusions that it was in fact John Taylor and Willard Richards that in fact murdered their own prophet in cold blood. RFM and Bill take a look at their research and the testimony of their experts to see what can be seen with a critical eye. Is this research true? Was Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith killed by their friends?

**RESOURCES:**

https://whokilledjosephsmith.com/

https://www.youtube.com/@jgriffWKJS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXfTw01ogPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5sDJddLojI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEyXihepN4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU9lfZu-q-c&t=10s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY3LJWrqvW4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3961&context=byusq

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/john-tayl

The post Mormonism LIVE: 116: Who Really Killed Joseph Smith? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 115: Mormon Cinema** Feb 16, 2023
On this week’s episode we sit down with Brent Bokovoy, Writer and Director of the upcoming film “Ronald’s Little Factory”, and we discuss all the twists and turns in Mormon Cinema including your favorites, along with movies you have likely forgotten, as well as one’s you never heard of. We finish out the episode discussing the upcoming film “Ronald’s Little Factory”. Boyd K Packer would have been proud!

**RESOURCES:**

Ronald’s Little Factory Trailer 1 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcsMBJ6kk6w
Ronald’s Little Factory – The Why behind the Film – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhFnlp9qjc4

EARLY MORMON CINEMA
* A Mormon Maid
* A Victim Of The Mormons
* Brigham Young
LDS PRODUCED CINEMA
* Johny Lingo
* The Pump
* Legacy
* The Testaments
MODERN MORMON CINEMA
* Virginia
* God’s Army
* Brigham City
* States of Grace
* The Singles Ward
* The RM
* Baptists At The Barbecue
* Sons Of Provo
* The Home Teachers
* Mobsters And Mormons
* The Book of Mormon Movie
* The Other Side of Heaven
* The Best Two Years
* Saints And Soldiers
* Once I Was A Beehive
POST MORMON CINEMA
* Plan 10 From Outer Space
* Orgazmo
* South Park Episode
* The Book Of Mormon Musical
* Latter Days
* Trapped By The Mormons
* Big Love
* Angels In America
* September Dawn
* The Book Of Zombie
* Electrick Children
* The Falls
* Missionary
* Room 104
SHORT FILMS
* Bad Mormons
* Killer Missionaries
* The Touch Of The Master’s Hand
DOCUMENTARIES
* 8 The Mormon Proposition
* Believer
* Tabloid
RECENT
* Murder Among The Mormons
* Keep Sweet And Obey
* Under The Banner Of Heaven
* Sins of Our Mother
* Mormon No More
* Abducted In Plain Sight
* A Friend of the Family

The post Mormonism LIVE: 115: Mormon Cinema appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 113: What Ever Happened To The Great Apostasy?** Feb 02, 2023
The Salt Lake Tribune recently published a book review on the book “Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints” published by the Maxwell Institute. Both the book and the Tribune article make note that what Latter-day Saints believed about early Christianity and the Great Apostasy may not only “overly simplistic, if not (a) completely false narrative”. But where did Latter-day Saints get these beliefs? How did Mormonism define the Great Apostasy? And more importantly if we redefine the very reasons for what a Restoration is and why it was needed, might we be undercutting the restoration itself?

Maxwell Institute Book available – Ancient Christians Available Now – Neal A. Maxwell Institute (byu.edu)

1832 First Vision Account contradicting SLTRIB Claim that B. H. Roberts was the first promoted the apostasy narrative – History, circa Summer 1832, Page 1 (josephsmithpapers.org)

1838 First Vision account also contains significant apostasy narrative pieces History, circa June 1839–circa 1841 [Draft 2], Page 3 (josephsmithpapers.org)

The Great Apostasy by: James Talmage published 1909 by the Deseret News – Which lays out in significant ways “The Great Apostasy” – The great apostasy : considered in the light of scriptural and secular history : Talmage, James Edward, 1862-1933 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Church url for their pamphlet on the Great Apostasy – The Great Apostasy (churchofjesuschrist.org)

While The Church is reducing the Great Apostasy to only Priesthood and Keys – They clearly have attached Doctrine, Church organization and Offices, consistency of Saving Rituals as well as imposing that Christ set up an actual Church as key components of “The Great Apostasy” – Talks where some of those concepts are spoken Example 1 Example 2 Example 3

The Church teaches that part of the Great Apostasy is that rather than leading via revelation that the early Christian Church instead traqnsitioned over to “Long Conferences” and “Erudite Councils” “depending upon their own brilliant minds” (See Manual Image Below) – and yet Elder Eyring admits that such is the very way this Church is led – Henry B. Eyring: “Forget Harvard and Stanford. We’re in another kind of thing here.” – YouTube

LDS Church Shifting to More Pageantry and Colorful Presentation to satisfy everyone (which in their manual they claim is a sign of the Great Apostasy) Example 1 Example 2 Example 3

The Modern Church creating a narrative of an ongoing restoration and that such has only begun to obfuscate that they are moving and shifting in every way they had previously labeled in the early Church as signs of Apostasy (Please note how is one to discern that all shifts and changes ithin the modern Church are “Auhtorized” and all shifts and changes in the Ancient Church are “Unauthorized”

1.) Distorting the and changing the Church organization and offices (Modern Church has changed the calling of Seventies, disbanded the General Patriarch, and created and then laterdisbanded the High Priests Group

2.) Silence between the Heavens and the Earth

3.) Vast numbers who had professed membership and many who had been officers in the ministry deserted the church; while a few were stimulated to greater zeal under the scourge of persecution.

4.) Internal dissension, schism and disruption, whereby an absolute apostasy of the Church from the way and word of God was brought about”

5.) The corrupting (Changing) of the simple doctrines of the gospel of Christ by admixture with so-called philosophic systems. (Corrupting is subjective)

6.) Unauthorized (Subjective) additions to the prescribed rites and rituals of the church and the introduction of vital alterations in essential ordinances.

7.) Unauthorized (Subjective) changes in church organization and government

8.) “If the savior had come back to earth at the beginning of the fifth century A.D., i doubt whether he would have recognized the Christian church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray.” VERSUS ” If Joseph Smith came back to earth today, i doubt whether he would have recognized the LDS Church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray.”

9.) The power of godliness was no longer present in the Christian church. (Is that power recognizable within the LDS Church ?)

10.) The laws were changed (Notice all the laws that have changed in the LDS Church EXAMPLES: The doing away of “Free Agency” and D&C say a Disciplinary Court requires 12 high priests but the Modern Church says not necessary)

11.) The ordinances were changed (Notice the changes to the Endowment)

12.) The everlasting covenant was broken that the lord Jesus Christ gave to his people in those days. (Notice what happened to the New and Everlasting Covenant within Mormonism AKA Polygamy)

13.) The superimposing of a man-made structure upon and over the divine program.

14.) Many men with no pretense nor claim to revelation, speaking without divine authority or revelation, depending only upon their own brilliant minds, but representing as they claim the congregations of the Christians.

15.) In long conference and erudite councils, sought the creation process to make a God which all could accept.

16.) The brilliant minds with their philosophies, knowing much about the Christian traditions and the pagan philosophies, would combine all elements to please everybody.

17.) They replaced the simple ways and program of the Christ with spectacular rituals, colorful display, impressive pageantry, and limitless pomposity, and called it Christianity.

18.) They had replaced the glorious, divine plan of exaltation of Christ with an elaborate, colorful, man-made system. they seemed to have little idea of totally dethroning the Christ, nor terminating the life of God, as in our own day, but they put together an incomprehensible God idea”

It also should be noted that the LDS Church imposes that Christ organized his Church, and set forth the offices of the Church and that whenever the Gospel has been on the Earth it has been taught and administered by the Church. Also note that even believing Faithful Scholars within the Church indicate that Jesus and his disciples remained Jews within the Jewish faith and synagogue.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 113: What Ever Happened To The Great Apostasy? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 112: Tithing – What’s In A Word** Jan 26, 2023
Recently Bill did a solo episode away from Mormonism LIVE walking members into the historical analysis of the initial Doctrine of tithing as 10% of one’s Surplus or Interest to help believers sense they had an option backed by historical documentation that allowed them to save themselves Thousands of Dollars a year while remaining faithful. After that episode a listener sent Bill and RFM an image of a vintage Church Handbook of Instruction that got their wheels turning and this week’s episode seeks to to delve into a historical analysis of how Surplus or Interest became Gross. And YES, You will be disgusted.

Here is the pdf presentation of the outline – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Tithing-Whats-In-A-Word.pdf

**The Introduction of Tithing to the Saints and “What is in a word”**

D&C 119 VS 1-4 (Given in 1838) – This law was imposed by God as a “Standing Law Forever” and came after the Law of Consecration had failed. Strange that Heavenly Father seems unable to see that this “Standing Law Forever” was about to be anything but consistent and eternal.

Tithing has always meant a tenth.

History of tithing in the world generally

But a tenth of what? is the crux

Verse 1 – Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands

It seems the original commandment required ALL Surplus property be given to the Church upon entry into the faith.

Verse 4 – Intimates that once one has entered the faith giving all their surplus property, they there after “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually”

INTEREST =

#3 “Regard to private profit”

#4 “Any surplus advantage”

What does Surplus mean =

“What is above and beyond after the necessities are taken care of”

“that which remains when use is satisfied”

What does all this mean

The law of tithing when taken on face value without any manipulation of the words seems to mean “When one enters the Church they are to hand over all Surplus property (any property above and beyond what is a necessity of life), and to then pay 1/10th of their “interest” or “surplus advantage” annually

It also says that this shall be a standing law forever hence meaning it is DOCTRINE and can’t be changed (Without additional revelation).

“Settled; established, either by law or by custom, etc.; continually existing; permanent; not temporary”

Since it is the Church who is about to muddy the waters the question is being begged if “Interest” means something other than how the word is literally why wasn’t God more clear?

**Examples of how it was interpreted in early Church history**

JST Genesis 14:39 vs the original verse Genesis 14:20 that Joseph seems to be modifying (between June 1830 and July 1833)

Original – “And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.”

Joseph Smith’s Adaptation – “Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.”

Joseph seems to be modifying this narrative about Melchizedek so as to have it conform with D&C 119’s reasonable interpretation of tithing as 1/10 of surplus. What he adds should be assumed to be altering the meaning otherwise why adapt it at all.

Bishop Partridge “If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and 1/10 of the interest will of course be $6.— thus you see the plan.” Bishop Edward Partridge letter to Newel K. Whitney, July 24, 1838

Bishop Partridge, the first Bishop in the Church is instructing Newel K Whitney (I believe the second bishop in the Church) on the definition of tithing and his responsibility to collect it

Bishop Partridge seems to be interpreting tithing literally based on the verse “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest (increase) annually” and is suggesting that one pay 10% of the interest earned on one’s net worth invested at 6%

Lastly Steven Harper seems to agree when he says “Bishop Partridge understood “one tenth of all their interest” annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year”

Millennial Star 1847 (Orson Hyde Editor) – “The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” – quotes comes post end of consecration and after law of tithing is revealed

This seems to deeply agree with the very interpretations we laid out by simply being reasonable with the definitions of words
a.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing before feeding your family
b.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing gets you out of poverty
c.) It seems to disagree with paying the tithing of the income you want to have
d.) It seems to disagree with Net Blessings or Gross Blessings

Lorenzo Snow 1899 in Saint George – (Church source )

““I pray that every man, woman, and child [who has means] shall pay one tenth of their income as tithing.”

When net or gross are used everyone has means with almost no exception.

Lorenzo Snow’s words mesh extremely well with that 1847 Millennial Star section.

Though we see for the First Time Income is substituted for Interest. This seems to be the place where later statements define interest as income. This is apparently the place where later leaders claim “interest” to understood as income.

The Modern Church while using the Income for Interest Substitution always withholds “Who has means” every time Snow is requoted in Church Materials, seemingly to deceive members from making a decision based on the full quote. (Ballard hiding Things Audio Bite). This is dishonest, gaslighting, manipulation, and once one grasps the pressure local leaders feel to impose 10% of gross it is also coercion. You can’t have one without the other. It’s where they get their “understanding”

**The Doctrine of Tithing as it was interpreted by Various Church Handbooks of Instruction (And the Official Letter in 1970)**
1913 Handbook

1923 handbook

1944 Handbook

1960 handbook

1963 handbook
THIS 1963 HANDBOOK IS WHEN TITHING IS EXPLICITLY DEFINED AS ON GROSS INCOME. ONLY TO BE TAKEN BACK OUT THE FOLLOWING HANDBOOK.

1968 handbook
a. Notice the apparent pushback or reconsideration and hence retreat away from being explicit about gross. This is a partial wondering about any legal liability due to their being explicit and contradicting past definitions

1970 First Presidency Letter

“We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – this is Bullshit.

THE 1899 CONFERENCE TALK BY SNOW SEEMS TO BE THE PLACE THEY PULL FROM TO REDEFINE INTEREST AS INCOME

1976 Handbook

Closeup

1983 Handbook

1989 Handbook

**Conclusion**

Knowing what these words mean, knowing how they were interpreted, knowing how they were implemented and carried out imposes that Church members grasp this all meant Interest literally. It meant surplus literally. It meant Increase literally….. And then suddenly somewhere, somehow all of these words are changed to mean “Income” out of thin air.

RFM–IT IS NOTEWORTHY THAT THE CHANGE FROM “INTEREST” TO “INCOME” WAS DONE BY LORENZO SNOW IN THE CONTEXT OF RAISING MORE MONEY TO GET THE CHURCH OUT OF DEBT. PERHAPS THIS WAS THE REASON FOR THE CHANGE; IN ORDER TO RAISE MORE MONEY.

And until an official voice (Church leader or LDS Newsroom) can explain to the Church membership where Surplus or interest earned became Gross or even Net “Income” every Church member should refuse to play by rules that have been made up in order to create the wealthy Church we have today. Why the bait and switch in meaning from Interest meaning surplus to Interest meaning Gross or Net Income?, why the bait and switch in word substitution and vocabulary going from the word Interest to the word income? Why the obfuscation of “Who Has Means”, and why not actually follow the very rule they pretend exists and allow “every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”?
We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – Again bullshit

**RESOURCES:**
**https://www.britannica.com/topic/tithe**

**https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng**

The post Mormonism LIVE: 112: Tithing – What’s In A Word appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

r/exmormon - Tithing - Even More data showing the Church slowly changing Doctrine from Interest/Surplus to Gross - Includes the Movement through several old Handbooks — **Mormonism LIVE: 112: Tithing – What’s In A Word** Jan 26, 2023
Recently Bill did a solo episode away from Mormonism LIVE walking members into the historical analysis of the initial Doctrine of tithing as 10% of one’s Surplus or Interest to help believers sense they had an option backed by historical documentation that allowed them to save themselves Thousands of Dollars a year while remaining faithful. After that episode a listener sent Bill and RFM an image of a vintage Church Handbook of Instruction that got their wheels turning and this week’s episode seeks to to delve into a historical analysis of how Surplus or Interest became Gross. And YES, You will be disgusted.

Here is the pdf presentation of the outline – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Tithing-Whats-In-A-Word.pdf

**The Introduction of Tithing to the Saints and “What is in a word”**

D&C 119 VS 1-4 (Given in 1838) – This law was imposed by God as a “Standing Law Forever” and came after the Law of Consecration had failed. Strange that Heavenly Father seems unable to see that this “Standing Law Forever” was about to be anything but consistent and eternal.

Tithing has always meant a tenth.

History of tithing in the world generally

But a tenth of what? is the crux

Verse 1 – Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands

It seems the original commandment required ALL Surplus property be given to the Church upon entry into the faith.

Verse 4 – Intimates that once one has entered the faith giving all their surplus property, they there after “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually”

INTEREST =

#3 “Regard to private profit”

#4 “Any surplus advantage”

What does Surplus mean =

“What is above and beyond after the necessities are taken care of”

“that which remains when use is satisfied”

What does all this mean

The law of tithing when taken on face value without any manipulation of the words seems to mean “When one enters the Church they are to hand over all Surplus property (any property above and beyond what is a necessity of life), and to then pay 1/10th of their “interest” or “surplus advantage” annually

It also says that this shall be a standing law forever hence meaning it is DOCTRINE and can’t be changed (Without additional revelation).

“Settled; established, either by law or by custom, etc.; continually existing; permanent; not temporary”

Since it is the Church who is about to muddy the waters the question is being begged if “Interest” means something other than how the word is literally why wasn’t God more clear?

**Examples of how it was interpreted in early Church history**

JST Genesis 14:39 vs the original verse Genesis 14:20 that Joseph seems to be modifying (between June 1830 and July 1833)

Original – “And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.”

Joseph Smith’s Adaptation – “Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.”

Joseph seems to be modifying this narrative about Melchizedek so as to have it conform with D&C 119’s reasonable interpretation of tithing as 1/10 of surplus. What he adds should be assumed to be altering the meaning otherwise why adapt it at all.

Bishop Partridge “If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and 1/10 of the interest will of course be $6.— thus you see the plan.” Bishop Edward Partridge letter to Newel K. Whitney, July 24, 1838

Bishop Partridge, the first Bishop in the Church is instructing Newel K Whitney (I believe the second bishop in the Church) on the definition of tithing and his responsibility to collect it

Bishop Partridge seems to be interpreting tithing literally based on the verse “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest (increase) annually” and is suggesting that one pay 10% of the interest earned on one’s net worth invested at 6%

Lastly Steven Harper seems to agree when he says “Bishop Partridge understood “one tenth of all their interest” annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year”

Millennial Star 1847 (Orson Hyde Editor) – “The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” – quotes comes post end of consecration and after law of tithing is revealed

This seems to deeply agree with the very interpretations we laid out by simply being reasonable with the definitions of words
a.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing before feeding your family
b.) It seems to disagree with paying tithing gets you out of poverty
c.) It seems to disagree with paying the tithing of the income you want to have
d.) It seems to disagree with Net Blessings or Gross Blessings

Lorenzo Snow 1899 in Saint George – (Church source )

““I pray that every man, woman, and child [who has means] shall pay one tenth of their income as tithing.”

When net or gross are used everyone has means with almost no exception.

Lorenzo Snow’s words mesh extremely well with that 1847 Millennial Star section.

Though we see for the First Time Income is substituted for Interest. This seems to be the place where later statements define interest as income. This is apparently the place where later leaders claim “interest” to understood as income.

The Modern Church while using the Income for Interest Substitution always withholds “Who has means” every time Snow is requoted in Church Materials, seemingly to deceive members from making a decision based on the full quote. (Ballard hiding Things Audio Bite). This is dishonest, gaslighting, manipulation, and once one grasps the pressure local leaders feel to impose 10% of gross it is also coercion. You can’t have one without the other. It’s where they get their “understanding”

**The Doctrine of Tithing as it was interpreted by Various Church Handbooks of Instruction (And the Official Letter in 1970)**
1913 Handbook

1923 handbook

1944 Handbook

1960 handbook

1963 handbook
THIS 1963 HANDBOOK IS WHEN TITHING IS EXPLICITLY DEFINED AS ON GROSS INCOME. ONLY TO BE TAKEN BACK OUT THE FOLLOWING HANDBOOK.

1968 handbook
a. Notice the apparent pushback or reconsideration and hence retreat away from being explicit about gross. This is a partial wondering about any legal liability due to their being explicit and contradicting past definitions

1970 First Presidency Letter

“We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – this is Bullshit.

THE 1899 CONFERENCE TALK BY SNOW SEEMS TO BE THE PLACE THEY PULL FROM TO REDEFINE INTEREST AS INCOME

1976 Handbook

Closeup

1983 Handbook

1989 Handbook

**Conclusion**

Knowing what these words mean, knowing how they were interpreted, knowing how they were implemented and carried out imposes that Church members grasp this all meant Interest literally. It meant surplus literally. It meant Increase literally….. And then suddenly somewhere, somehow all of these words are changed to mean “Income” out of thin air.

RFM–IT IS NOTEWORTHY THAT THE CHANGE FROM “INTEREST” TO “INCOME” WAS DONE BY LORENZO SNOW IN THE CONTEXT OF RAISING MORE MONEY TO GET THE CHURCH OUT OF DEBT. PERHAPS THIS WAS THE REASON FOR THE CHANGE; IN ORDER TO RAISE MORE MONEY.

And until an official voice (Church leader or LDS Newsroom) can explain to the Church membership where Surplus or interest earned became Gross or even Net “Income” every Church member should refuse to play by rules that have been made up in order to create the wealthy Church we have today. Why the bait and switch in meaning from Interest meaning surplus to Interest meaning Gross or Net Income?, why the bait and switch in word substitution and vocabulary going from the word Interest to the word income? Why the obfuscation of “Who Has Means”, and why not actually follow the very rule they pretend exists and allow “every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”?
We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” – Again bullshit

**RESOURCES:**
**https://www.britannica.com/topic/tithe**

**https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng**

The post Mormonism LIVE: 112: Tithing – What’s In A Word appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 111: Joseph Smith’s Secret Education – The Dartmouth Connection** Jan 19, 2023

The running narrative within Mormonism is that Joseph Smith was an uneducated backwoods farm boy and that his lack of sophistication leaves the the Restoration as a miracle that no country bumpkin could have pulled off. But what happens when, with critical thinking skills, we take a look at the the Education he did have or had potential access to. Was Joseph Smith uneducated? Was he a middle school dropout as a surface level reading intimates? And what do we see when we look at the education of those around Joseph Smith and specifically within his family?
**CORRECTIONS** **[ There were two errors in the video presentation for this episode. #1 Randall Bell conflated incorrectly that Joseph’s uncle**, John Smith (July 16, 1781 – May 23, 1854) was same John Smith (December 21, 1752 – April 30, 1809) who played a prominent role in the early history of Dartmouth. #2 The letter put up on the screen of Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdrey, is in the handwriting of Frederick G Williams.]

**RESOURCES:** Dartmouth Arminianism And Its Impact on Hyrum Smith And the Smith Family – https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/book_of_mormon/translation/Dartmouth-Arminianism-Behrens-2006-JWH.pdf

PDF Reassessing Joseph Smith Jr.’s Formal Education William Davis Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (2016) 49 (4): 1–58. – https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/uip/dial/article-pdf/49/4/1/1284352/dialjmormthou.49.4.0001.pdf

Randall Bell’s PDF Presentation – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Randy-Bell-Dartmouth.pdf

Joseph Smith’s Pre-1830 Education – https://mormonr.org/qnas/MggWf/joseph_smiths_pre_1830_education

List of Books Joseph Smith owned – https://user.xmission.com/~research/about/books.htm

Treasures and a Trash Heap: An Early Reference to the Joseph Smith Family in Palmyra (Page 201 of the document) – https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=mormonhistory

William Davis wrote an article “reassessing Joseph Smith Jr’s Formal Education” and notes that when one tallies up all the evidence including the final term with Stowell’s son in Bainbridge such “increases the overall estimated time that Joseph spent in formal education to the equivalent of approximately seven full school years —a notable increase to that proposed in previous historical representations, and one that will require the careful evaluation of future historians” reddit discussion around the Dartmouth Connection – https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/comments/92e2sl/similarities_between_dartmouth_professor_john/ Adam Clarke’s Book on Tobacco – https://archive.org/details/b30351108#:~:text=A%20dissertation%20on%20the%20use%20and%20abuse%20of,among%20religious%20people….%20by%20Clarke%2C%20Adam%2C%20approximately%201762-1832 History of Moor’s Indian Charity School – https://archives-manuscripts.dartmouth.edu/agents/corporate_entities/786

The post Mormonism LIVE: 111: Joseph Smith’s Secret Education – The Dartmouth Connection appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 379: Why Most Latter day Saints Are Over paying Their Tithing By 1000s Of Dollars** Jan 16, 2023
Most faithful Latter-day Saints pay tithing on their gross income with a few paying on net income. But do the historical documents and past teachings of Prophets, Seers, and Revelators support either of those two interpretations? We take a deep dive into the historical context exploring D&C 119, A First Presidency Letter in 1970, old manuals and handbooks, Heber C Kimball, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F Smith, James E Talmage, and even the words of Bishop Edward Partridge who was the very First Bishop in the Church along with getting a modern clarifying statement from Church Historian Steven Harper about how “interest” has been interpreted in Church History. In the end a third interpretation rises to the surface that will allow every believing faithful member to save themselves Thousands of Dollars while still living the law of tithing faithfully.

**RESOURCES:**

Outline of this presentation with all documents sourced – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Why-Latter-day-Saints-Pay-Too-Much-Tithing-Outline.pdf

PDF of the slide show – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Why-Latter-day-Saints-Pay-Too-Much-Tithing.pdf

LDS Tithing: What’s in a word?

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html

Tithing and the poor

https://mormonsundayschool.org/044-tithes-and-fasting-doctrine-covenants-and-church-history/

http://lds-church-history.blogspot.com/2010/12/lds-history-summary.html

The law of tithing (part three)

https://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/04/i-have-a-question/what-figure-should-we-base-our-tithing-on.html?lang=eng https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/102-17-29.pdf

The post Mormon Discussion: 379: Why Most Latter day Saints Are Over paying Their Tithing By 1000s Of Dollars appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 110: Francis Gladden Bishop – Succession Crisis, Orgies, & Sacred Relics** Jan 12, 2023
Bill & RFM take a look at the Life of Francis Gladden Bishop, another Latter-day Saint who claimed to be the rightful heir to Joseph Smith after the martyrdom as part of the Mormon Succession Crisis.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/license-for-gladden-bishop-14-april-1840-extract/1
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145852385/francis-gladden-bishop

https://atom3.lib.byu.edu/mormonbib/11107/.
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/francis-gladden-bishop-1809
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladden_Bishop, https://wilfordwoodruffpapers.org/subjects/francis-gladden-bishop
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/bc-jsp/content/jsp/images/1168/1168_ms155_3_05_001_med.jpg
https://archive.org/details/addresstosonsdau01bish
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-2-november-1838-31-july-1842/215, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/bc-jsp/content/jsp/images/1168/1168_ms155_3_05_001_med.jpg
https://smile.amazon.com/Ensign-Shepherd-Remembrance-Classic-Reprint/dp/1333273819/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VOHXKME6OJK6&keywords=%22francis+gladden+bishop%22&qid=1672953250&sprefix=francis+gladden+bishop+%2Caps%2C128&sr=8-1
https://smile.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AFrancis+Gladden+Bishop&s=relevancerank&text=Francis+Gladden+Bishop&ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-from-francis-gladden-bishop-26-september-1843/1
https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JS0428.pdf

The post Mormonism LIVE: 110: Francis Gladden Bishop – Succession Crisis, Orgies, & Sacred Relics appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 109: The LDS “Mormon” Church’s Teachings on Sex** Jan 05, 2023
Bill and RFM take a deep look at how sex and sexuality were presented within the LDS Church over the last 200 years. What was taboo and sin and to what degree did Leaders impose what could and could not go on the Bedroom.

RAPE & VIRTUE

A.) BOM teaching – Moroni 9:9

implemented into Gospel Principles (David O McKay, Heber J Grant, Spencer W Kimball)

Restated by Marion G Romney

Then by Mark E Petersen (soundbite)

And then the Church seems to distance itself from the teaching …. Sort of

Still in scriptures

No documented way for believers to grasp they are distancing themselves from it.

Elizabeth Smart – led to the distancing

Neil Anderson (video is here )

Doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Q of the 12.

I would challenge believers to show me where I can find any teaching that has been held up and taught by all 15 of the top leadership.

That list would be so small that there should be no barrier to listing them because if 14 men taught it and one didn’t by this standard it is not Doctrine (Remember God is not a God of Confusion)

So I am left to assume Neil meant that so long as it is taught generally among the Leaders?

Was this teaching in its day taught generally among the leaders? YES

It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk.

Was this hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk? NO

It (That Virtue and chastity can be taken from you by an abusive act committed against you and that one is better off dead than having lost their virtue) was taught

By President, Prophet, seer and Revelator David O McKay

By President, Prophet, seer and Revelator Heber J Grant

Marion G Romney Counselor in the First Presidency (Prophet Seer and Revelator)

By President, Prophet, seer, and Revelator Spencer W Kimball

By Apostle Mark E Petersen (Prophet Seer and Revelator)

In the past correlated curriculum in Gospel Principles

In the Book of Mormon one of the standard works

This is the very reason for which old white men claiming to be moral authorities simply aren’t. Because not only do they collectively struggle to grasp what healthy morality is and seem to collectively follow each other down the path of perpetuating abusive and unhealthy ideas, but because they also can’t define doctrine in any way that is actually useful to the Church.

ORAL SEX AS AN UNHOLY AND UNNATURAL ACT

A.) Unholy & Unnatural Act

THE OLD DEFINITION OF CHASTITY (Old Handbook 21.4.5 Chastity and Fidelity) “The Lord’s law of chastity is abstinence from sexual relations outside of lawful marriage and fidelity within marriage. Sexual relations are proper only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife. Adultery, fornication, homosexual or lesbian relations, and every other unholy, unnatural, or impure practice are sinful. Members who violate the Lord’s law of chastity or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline.”

THE NEW DEFINITION OF CHASTITY – The Lord’s law of chastity is: Abstinence from sexual relations outside of a legal marriage between a man and a woman. Fidelity within marriage.

Not in Gospel Principles either

But Still on the Church’s site in other forms

Teachings of President Kimball

Guide to the Scriptures

Intimacy in Marriage

President Kimball seemingly contradicting himself as he is the one who took up this cause

B.) Oral Sexcapades

Spencer W. Kimball and the First Presidency naming it in official letter

Retracting it in a second letter

BIRTH CONTROL (I want to be extremely brief here. I am going to present these quotes in passing)

A.) PAST TEACHINGS

. . . there is a certain class of Latter-day Saints that have come to think as the gentile world does—that it is not stylish, not nice to have large families; and therefore we find, much to our sorrow, that in some instances steps are being taken “to prevent these spirits being tabernacled by them. .. . Apostle Abraham O. Woodruff, 1900

Speaking about Birth Control and Abortion Joseph F Smith said “Possibly no greater sin could be committed by the people who have embraced this Gospel than to prevent or to destroy life in the manner indicated.”

The Church statistical report for 1901 (possibly the earliest reporting a Church birth rate). “There is something wrong,” reported the Juvenile Instructor, “either with ourselves or with our statistics—possibly with both; but we trust it is with the statistics, as that is the lesser evil.” Not only had the marriage rate declined, but “our average birth rate, if we can believe our statistical reports, is far too low. It is below that of the nations of modern Christendom to whose birth rate we have been able to obtain access. Ours, as reported, is a little over thirty-five per annum in each thousand souls.”54 The reaction to this discovery was predictable. A charge was given to review the statistics and to keep more accurate records, and markedly increased attention was given in Church discourses and publications to the obligation to have large families. Throughout the remainder of the decade, the Saints were enjoined to “be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth,” and to abandon the “tendency to postpone the responsibilities [of marriage] until middle life.” Bachelorhood and “wilfully motherless wives” came under particular attack, while the mothers of large families were singled out for special recognition.The mothers of Zion (or the statisticians) responded to the call. Within a decade, the Church could announce a birthrate of 38 per thousand, up ten percent. Although not as high as desired, there was still room for considerable pride that this was “the highest birth-rate in the world, as far as available statistics show.”56 (By comparison, the national rate was nearly ten per thousand lower. At these rates, a representative Mormon mother would average nearly five children, while her non-Mormon counterpart would be closer to 31/2.

Joseph Fielding Smith – “. . . those who attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord, and to prevent their offspring from coming into the world . . . are guilty of one of the most heinous crimes in the category. There is no promise of eternal salvation and exaltation for such as they. . . “

Joseph F Smith “. . . I regret, I think it is a crying evil, that there should exist a sentiment or a feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. I think that is a crime whenever it occurs, where husband and wife are in possession of health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity. I believe that where people undertake to curtail or prevent the birth of their children that they are going to reap disappointment by and by. I have no hesitancy in saying that I believe this is one of the greatest crimes in the world today, this evil practice. . . .”

David O McKay – “The viewpoint of the Church,” he wrote on another occasion, “.. . is that the use of artificial preventatives is strictly out of line, as long as the health of the wife is not seriously impaired by childbearing.”

1976 Handbook of Instruction (as one who is aware that the old handbooks exist out there on the internet, I am confident that Birth Control was not discussed in the handbook earlier and the position was softened in later editions)(Spencer Kimball President) – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/BirthControl1976.png (Close Up)

Bruce R McConkie – Mormon Doctrine – “”Those who practice birth control—the regulation of births in a family by the employment of artificial means or contraceptives to prevent conception—are running counter to the foreordained plan of the Almighty. They are in rebellion against God and are guilty of gross wickedness.”

Give the Church a compliment here. Express that on this issue they have been moderately healthy and outside of some really early quotes and the 1976 Handbook anomaly they have been moderate and credit should be given to Bruce R McConkie and Mormon Doctrine for the proliferation of the unhealthy view that associated Birth Control with wickedness and somewhat unredeemable forgiveness

B.) CURRENT TEACHINGS

The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.

Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple. Elective abortion as a method of birth control, however, is contrary to the commandments of God.

INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE (Black African Descent Only) AS SIN

A.) Early Teachings against Inter-racial Marriage

Brigham Young

1852 Speech on Slavery

“Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth; we will summons the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishoprick, and all the elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction,–we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until that curse be removed.” – Is this a false Prophesy or Was the Priesthood taken from the Church?

In light of “Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

“If they [the couple and child] were far away from the Gentiles [non-Mormons] they wo[ul]d all have to be killed[.] [W]hen they mingle seed it is death to all. If a black man & white woman come to you & demand baptism can you deny them? [T]he law is their seed shall not be amalg[a]mated. Mulattoes are like mules[,] they can’t have the children, but if they will be Eunuchs for the Kingdom of God’s Heaven’s sake they may have a place in the Temple.”

“In the priesthood I will tell you what it will do. Where the children of God to mingle there seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the priesthood upon themselves but the entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it. If a man in an unguarded moment should commit such a transgression, if he would walk up and say cut off my head, and kill man woman and child it would do a great deal towards atoneing for the sin. Would this be to curse them? no it would be a blessing to them. -it would do them good that they might be saved with their Bren. A man would shuder should they here us take about killing folk, but it is one of the greatest blessings to some to kill them, allthough the true principles of it are not understood.”

B.) People were punished for inter-racial marriage up to the 1960’s

Under Wilford Woordruff – “In the late 1800s at least two white members were denied church ordinances after they had married a black person. In 1895, a white woman was denied a temple sealing to her white husband because she had previously married a black man, even though she had divorced him.[60]: 78–79 First Presidency member George Q. Cannon argued that allowing her access to the temple would not be fair to her two daughters, whom she’d had with her former husband.[61]: 78 [60]: 37 [62] Another white man was denied the priesthood in 1897 because he had married a black woman, though, then senior apostle Lorenzo Snow stated that the man would be eligible if he divorced his wife and married a white woman.[60]: 79, 83 Additionally, Cannon recorded in his journal having stated in 1881 that when it came to the important question of interracial marriage, Mormons believed against “intermarriage with inferior races, particularly the negro.”

[1966], President McKay addressed a similar issue regarding a woman who had been to the temple and subsequently married a black man. The woman was told by her local Church leader ‘that no further Temple visits would be allowed her, and that[,] because of her marriage to a Negro[,] her Temple endowments are ineffective.’ McKay overruled the invalidation of her endowments but did prevent her from visiting the temple again. – DOCUMENTATION 1 & DOCUMENTATION 2

C.) Inter-racial Marriage still recommended against

Lesson 31 (Aaronic Priesthood Manual) – Choosing an Eternal Companion – “We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144).”

ETERNAL MARRIAGE STUDENT MANUAL PDF Page 180 but strangely removed from Page 199 where the quote is only partially repeated “We are grateful that this one survey reveals that about 90 percent of the temple marriages hold fast. Because of this, we recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question.”

Weird Topic with nothing of substance (Quote haven’t hidden anything)

MASTURBATION

A.) Boyd K Packer “To Young Men Only”

B.) Spencer W. Kimball – Use Mormon Think to show the litany of quotes

C.) Mark E Petersen – Weirdest correlated talk ever in the Church

“First counselor George A. Smith tells the Salt Lake School of the Prophets about “the evil of Masturbation” / (September) Branch presidents at the Missionary Training Center receive a 21-point handout to help “both male and female” missionaries avoid masturbation. Point 19: “In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.” In a May 1995 article about masturbation, the national magazine ‘Details’ publishes seventeen of these recommendations and identifies Apostle Mark E. Petersen as the suthor of ‘Steps in Overcoming Masturbation: A Guide To Self-Control.’ In 1996, a spokesman at LDS headquarters denies that Elder Petersen authored this document and denies it was ever officially distributed.”

First I just have to say, any youth given this talk to curb their “self abuse” of their “little factory” was almost assuredly thinking more often about masturbation after reading this and inevitably touching themselves more not less.

#13 – Arise immediately in the mornings. Do not lie in bed awake, no matter what time of day it is. Get up and do something. Start each day with an enthusiastic activity.Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring. Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding. Avoid people, situations, pictures or reading materials that might create sexual excitement. It is sometimes helpful to have a physical object to use in overcoming this problem. A Book of Mormon, firmly held in hand, even in bed at night has proven helpful in extreme cases. In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.

D.) Stance has softened in recent years AND I EXPECT SUCH TO CONTINUE

Ensign – “How, When, and Why: Talking to Your Children about Sexuality”

“It is important for parents to find a balance between helping children understand the why behind God’s commandment that sexual behavior occur within a marriage relationship, while also not reacting with disgust or anger when children engage in self-touching or youth admit to masturbating.”

Most recent Handbook says Masturbation not grounds for formal discipline

TEACHINGS ON SEX GENERALLY

A.) President Joseph F. Smith stated – [T]he Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has formulated no special rules governing the associations of married people. . . . [A]s to their mutual conduct in the marital relation, so far as sexual intercourse is concerned, they are left entirely free. – Joseph F. Smith To Frank S. Bellings, FEB. 17, 1905.

B.) President Joseph Fielding Smith stated when asked a similar question by an anonymous female member “The Brethren feel that the question which you raise is such as should be answered by you and your husband and in accordance with your own convictions. The Church has never believed it necessary to issue instructions pertaining to intimate relations between husband and wife.” – Joseph Anderson – Secretary to the 1st Presidency to L.A. Mar 23 1971

C.) Others Statements- “[S]exual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.”

D.) “Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love within marriage.”

________________________

RFM ADDITION–I THINK THE CHURCH’S OBSESSION (DARE I CALL IT THAT?) WITH VIRTUE AND CHASTITY HAS LED TO THE STRANGE SITUATION OF THE CHURCH USING GREAT WORKS OF ART TO ILLUSTRATE CHRISTIAN-RELATED THEMES, BUT MODIFYING THEM TO MAKE THEM ACCEPTABLE TO THE STRICT RULES OF THE LAW OF CHASTITY.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/12/30/gordon-monson-when-lds-church/

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/12/29/latter-day-saints-alter-nativity/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11588083/Mormon-Church-condemned-photoshopping-painting-Virgin-Mary-cover-bust-shoulders.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

NOTE–IT IS THE LAST ARTICLE LINKED ABOVE FROM THE DAILY MAIL THAT SHOWS THE PRIOR MODIFICATIONS.

RESOURCES:

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/1982_Temple_Recommend_Adjustments_Oral_Sex.jpg

https://radiowest.kuer.org/current-events/2021-04-22/the-sexual-history-of-the-lds-church
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/12/HealthyLDSSexuality-Mormon-Discussion-Podcast.pdf

https://eternalintimacy.weebly.com/whats-allowed-after-marriage.html

https://www.mormonmatters.org/prophetic-counsel-about-sex-within-marriage-a-brief-history/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/LDS-First-Presidency-Oral-Sex-Letter.jpg

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2012/10/trial-of-your-faith?lang=eng
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mormon-sex-religion_n_6669892

https://www.ranker.com/list/facts-about-mormon-intimacy/lindsayweglarz
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/birth-control?lang=eng&cid=14503511667

https://archive.org/details/reliefsocietymag03reli/page/n403/mode/2up?view=theater&q=birth+control

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N02_14.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_and_Mormonism#Birth_control_and_abortion

https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/Birth%20Control%20Family%20Size.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_chastity

https://www.danielaburgess.com/blog/2019/11/20/oral-sex

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N02_14.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_on_masturbation_in_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm

https://www.mrm.org/topicsdocuments-speechesbrigham-youngs-1852-speech-slavery

http://www.connellodonovan.com/black_white_marriage.html
https://rationalfaiths.com/blacks-and-the-priesthood-revisted/
https://ia903006.us.archive.org/29/items/LowryNelson1stPresidencyExchange/Lowry_Nelson_1st_Presidency_Exchange.pdf

https://proveallthingsholdfasttogood.wordpress.com/exploring-the-divinity-of-the-ban/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 109: The LDS “Mormon” Church’s Teachings on Sex appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 108: Is The Book of Mormon Unique?** Dec 29, 2022
RFM and Bill take a deeper look at the “Book of Mormon” and compare what we know about it with what we know about other books to see if it is as un unique as believers claim it to be and we even get Mormon Scholar, Brian Hales opinion on the matter.
This past week on Mormonism LIVE we covered “Automatic Writing” in the episode, Mormonism LIVE: 108: Is The Book of Mormon Unique? A Great Article to read that delves into this in regards to its connection to Mormonism is here – https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/050-16-26.pdf Here are the connections between Smith’s “Translation” of the Book of Mormon and the data behind automatic writing. 1.) Some of the Authors within “Automatic Writing” seemed to have a serious lack of education 2.) Their writings contained details that indicated antiquity that the author couldn’t of known ( [O]ne time while he [Joseph] was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered ‘Yes,’ he replied ‘Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.”) 3.) Able to discern things about the foreign lands and times that had a degree of accuracy to them. 4.) many “Automatic Writing” examples contained significantly less anachronisms than the book of Mormon 5.) “Automatic Writing” authors used a peep stone or crystal 6.) “Automatic Writing” authors moved away from a peep stone which they needed at first to being able to translate without one. 7.) Many of the significant “Automatic Writing” productions were Christian themed 8.) Some contained the voice of Christ 9.) Many were done by dictation 10.) At Least one stated its purpose was to answer three big questions “Where did we come from”, “Why are we here”, and “Where are we going”? 11.) Many of these productions were significantly longer than the “Book of Mormon”. 12.) many proposed to claim they were being given by voices of ancient people from antiquity 13.) several “Automatic Writing” authors were able to stop and take breaks and pick up exactly where they left off without being reminded where they were. ( According to Emma, when she and Joseph were interrupted during his translating, Joseph would later resume on the very sentence from which he had left off ) 14.) numerous others found the “”Automatic Writing” to be believable 15.) numerous people found the “automatic writing” productions to be of a high quality of writing. For example Jane Eyre is believed to have been written this way. 16.) numerous others found some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions to be inspiring and worth basing one’s lived spirituality on. 17.) some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions were written to a world audience with revealed knowledge important to Salvation 18.) some of the “”Automatic Writing” productions seemed to pass the tests of appearing to be from antiquity and contained little to no contemporary material. (compare to the amount of 19th Century material in the Book of Mormon). 19.) much of the “Automatic Writing” productions claim to be channeling a divine source. (Gift and Power of God) 20.) Many “Automatic Writing” productions seemed to be beyond the competency of the person performing the “Automatic Writing”. 21.) some “Automatic Writing” productions were not only done by dictation but also had many words spelled out specifically 22.) many “Automatic Writing” productions contained really deep gems that were thought provoking. Poems, and passages that seem inspiring generally. 23.) reading “Automatic Writing” productions caused awe and wonder in their readers. (they essentially felt the spirit reading them) 24.) many “Automatic Writing” productions get a ton of things onto paper quickly such as 5000 words in a single evening ( Starting on April 7th, 1829, Joseph Smith began translating the Book of Mormon. He completed his translation on July 1st of that year—just 90 days! That makes for an average of about 8 pages per day. ) Hence Joseph Smith as an “Automatic Writer” makes incredible sense and has significant overlap and suggests that the Translation of the Book of Mormon is both NOT Unique, and NOT even that good compared to other examples of “Automatic Writing” such as these * The Sorry Tale – https://archive.org/details/sorrytaleastory01currgoog/page/n6/mode/2up * The Urantia Text – https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online * The Course in Miracles – https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/A_Course_in_Miracles_Text.pdf * Jane Eyre – https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1260/1260-h/1260-h.htm

**RESOURCES:**

https://archive.org/details/sorrytaleastory01currgoog/page/78/mode/2up
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1542&context=jbms#:~:text=Some%20critics%20of%20the%20Book,claimed%20communi%2D%20cations%20with%20spirits
https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V52N02_1.pdf
https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/050-16-26.pdf
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/A_Course_in_Miracles_Text.pdf
https://archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/glastonbury-abbey.htm
https://gospeltangents.com/2021/10/automatic-writing-bill-davis/ – This is the the source for the three minute clip with Brian Hales talking about automatic writing. This segment is from an interview by Rick Bennett on his video podcast “Gospel Tangents” on the episode titled “Automatic Writing/Bill Davis’s Visions of Seer Stone”

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**Mormon Discussion: 378: Mormonism & Two Tickets to Crazy Town** Dec 28, 2022
I’m going to let you into my head for a moment. Don’t say I didn’t warn you. Have you ever considered the amount of violence and deception in Mormonism’s past and present and pondered all the reasons for folks to feel fear or personal risk in exposing Mormonism?

The post Mormon Discussion: 378: Mormonism & Two Tickets to Crazy Town appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 107: Sheri Dew You Know – A Not So Christmas Special** Dec 22, 2022
Sheri Dew recently gave a Devotional Talk titled “Prophets Can See Around Corners” at BYU Hawaii on Nov 1st 2022. Bill and RFM take a deep look into this talk to see if what sort of apologetic tricks and absurd claims Sheri Dew makes this time around. Make some hot chocolate, grab a slice of fruitcake, and sit down by the fire, because Reel and RFM are going to fill your stockings with some Christmas Tidings and Apologetic Fallacies and Yuletide Cheer.

**RESOURCES:**

Sheri Dew’s Talk – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqFKbnzuF-M

Gordon B Hinkley’s 1998 Priesthood Talk – https://youtu.be/J2mcY_SkZSI

President Nelson Not Knowing about Covid Coming – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/04/11nelson?lang=eng

President Nelson’s Stated Impetus vbehind the #HearHim – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/the-story-behind-my-global-prayer-of-gratitude?lang=eng

The post Mormonism LIVE: 107: Sheri Dew You Know – A Not So Christmas Special appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 106: DezNat Exposed** Dec 15, 2022
This week we explore DezNat or a loosely connected group of folks who claim to be Deseret Nationals. We explore their violent rhetoric and their problematic ideology and we even have a former DezNat follower to help us add context to this story. #DezNat

**RESOURCES:**

Wiki DezNat – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DezNat

DezNat Twitter – https://twitter.com/DeseretNation

DezNat Exposed – https://exposedeznat.noblogs.org/

DezNat Exposed Twitter – https://twitter.com/exposedeznat

**REFERENCES IN THE SHOW:**

The Corbridge Manuever Part 1 – https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/03/radio-free-mormon-057-the-corbridge-manuever-part-1/

The Corbridge Manuever Part 2 – https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/03/radio-free-mormon-058-the-corbridge-manuever-part-2/

Wrong Roads – https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/05/extra-radio-free-mormon-wrong-roads/

Nancy Rigdon & The Happiness Letter – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUtmzt3fJc

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**Mormonism LIVE: 105: When Mormon Leaders Encourage Violence** Dec 08, 2022
Since 1830 Mormonism has, as likely a part of it’s persecution complex, used violent rhetoric and has taught its members to use violent means. That rhetoric either leads to further violence or at least creates safer spaces for violence to occur. Today we look into Mormonism Past and Present to expose a history wide pattern of Mormon Leaders Encouraging Violence.

**RESOURCES:**
Boyd K Packer “To Young Men Only” – https://archive.org/details/ToYoungMenOnly/page/n15/mode/2up?view=theater
Wiki Temple Penalties – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_(Mormonism)#The_Nauvoo_endowment_and_Freemasonry
Church acknowledge Joseph Smith Approved the Danites – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints?lang=eng
Oath of Vengence – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance
Journal of Discourses Brigham Young encouraging Murdering adulterers & “Blood Atonement” – https://www.josephsmithfoundation.org/journalofdiscourses/speakers/brigham-young/instructions-to-the-bishops-men-judged-according-to-their-knowledge-organization-of-the-spirit-and-body-thought-and-labor-to-be/
Wilford Woodruff Journal Where Brigham Approves of the “Mountain Meadows Massacre” – https://wilfordwoodruffpapers.org/documents/d3d712e1-2719-4efa-8d2d-b2dfda74f9fb/page/7f604d11-2494-4a3b-9497-35b60e0149b0
The Bishop Warren Snow castration story – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Castration-2.png
Marion G Romney suggesting it better for one to come home in a casket rather than lose one’s virtue – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1981/09/we-believe-in-being-chaste?lang=eng
Mark E Peterson repeating Romney’s sentiments – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/12/SacrificeYourLife.mp3
Elder Holland suggesting defenders of the faith pick up muskets and aim them at those who oppose the Church – https://youtu.be/tg36L1989Ss?t=1223
Year of Polygamy Podcast “Culture of Violence” – https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Quinn-The-Culture-of-Violence-In-Joseph-Smiths-Mormonism-w-notes.pdf

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**Mormonism LIVE: 104: Captain Nemo VS The LDS Church** Dec 01, 2022
What happens when a Member of the LDS Church stands opposed in a sustaining vote of Church leaders, follows the process the Church has laid out around “common consent”, and shows conclusively that current LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have lied to the members. Well, you are about to find out, because Nemo does just that.

**RESOURCES**:

President Nelson lying about his flight – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz4iQk1M9l4

Elder Ballard’s being dishonest about hiding things – https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/11/radio-free-mormon-021-elder-ballard-blows-church/

1832 First Vision Account – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGSKhHQttrs

Elder Oaks Electroshock Hoax – https://youtu.be/0m5qRse2K5M

Elder Holland lying on repeated occasions including prop 8 – https://youtu.be/QyFsy2zQf04

Adam God – https://youtu.be/neaa9rw9ySs

Gaslighting from LDS Leadership including Ballard on not knowing where inviting to be baptized at the 1st discussion came from – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TVGzjEd5GE

**Additional Lies**

How Leaders repeatedly compromise themselves – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxidgOPpAxM

Past Leaders lying repeatedly over polygamy – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VZFzK4jBZE

**OTHER RESOURCES**

Common Council – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Council_of_the_Church

The post Mormonism LIVE: 104: Captain Nemo VS The LDS Church appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 103: Thomas Murphy on the Third Convention** Nov 25, 2022
As a follow-up to episode 101 on the Third Convention, Thomas Murphy joins us to add clarity and context to all the ground we covered and to add details that make this story even more interesting.

**RESOURCES:**

The First Part – Video Version – https://youtu.be/Gmjk3Kht0S8

Slide Show used by Prof Murphy in this episode – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/Third-Convention_-Other-Stories.pdf

Thomas W Murphy | Edmonds Community College – Academia.edu

Reinventing Mormonism: Guatemala as Harbinger of the Future? – Dialogue Journal

Zapotec Natural History | UAPress (arizona.edu)

(PDF) ‘Stronger than Ever’: Remnants of the Third Convention. | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu

(PDF) Fifty Years of United Order in Mexico | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu

(PDF) From Racist Stereotype to Ethnic Identity: Instrumental Uses of Mormon Racial Doctrine | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu

(PDF) Other Mormon Histories: Lamanite Subjectivity in Mexico. | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu

(PDF) Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu

(PDF) Decolonization on the Salish Sea: A Tribal Journey back to Mormon Studies | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu

The Spiritual Evolution of Margarito Bautista – Elisa Eastwood Pulido – Oxford University Press (oup.com)

Dr Elisa Pulido discusses Margarito Baustista, Nahua Mormon, with Dr Thomas Murphy – YouTube

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Mexico | SpringerLink

Unboxing the Fernando R. and Enriqueta Gomez Mormon Mexican History Collection (Exhibit Extended!) – The Claremont Colleges Library

NEH Summer Institutes Program – Claremont Mormon Studies (cgu.edu)

Conferences – Mormon Studies – The University of Utah

(PDF) An Insufficient Canon: Popol Wuj, Book of Mormon, and Other Neophyte Scriptures | Thomas W Murphy – Academia.edu

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**Mormonism LIVE: 102: The Greatest Problem In The LDS Church** Nov 17, 2022
What is the greatest problem in the LDS Church? That question is at the heart of this week’s episode. Jim Bennett is our guest this week on Mormonism LIVE, as we explore this question and some of the territory surrounding it.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 102: The Greatest Problem In The LDS Church appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 101: The Third Convention** Nov 16, 2022
Apostasy is something the LDS Church show serious concern over. And why shouldn’t they knowing James Strang, Lorin C. Wooley, Denver Snuffer, Julie Rowe all have led Splinter Factions of one sort or another that have had influence over segments of Latter-day Saints. The idea that a few voices or even a single voice can sway large groups of people into disaffection has the Brethren always on guard. But often the heart of the issue is the lack of listening on the part of the Leaders themselves who can in fact be their own worst enemy. We dive into one such story where LDS Leadership and those they call to preside often become their very own stumbling block as we discuss “The Third Convention”.

**Rey Lucero Pratt**

Born October 11 1878

PRATT’S PARENTS

Pratt was born in Salt Lake City, Utah Territory, the fourth child of Helaman Pratt and Emmeline Victoria Billingsley Pratt.

When Rey was nine, the Pratts moved to Mexico to help settle Colonia Dublán, a Mormon colony in the northern state of Chihuahua. His father was settling in Mexico to escape being prosecuted by the United States federal government for practicing polygamy (Note to the audience that Helaman is a polygamist and has more than one wife). Rey grew up in Mexico, learning to appreciate its history and people.

Somewhere along the way he and at least some of his siblings became mexican citizens

REY PRATT & ORSON F WHITNEY & Hyrum Harris

Apostle Orson F. Whitney set Pratt apart as a missionary on 4 October 1906. On 1 November, Pratt arrived by train in Mexico City and reported to the mission home. He served for nearly a year under mission president Hyrum S. Harris, during which time he presided over the Toluca conference for seven months. Then, on 25 August 1907, Harris announced that Pratt would replace him as president of the Mexican Mission. Pratt was set apart by Harris on 29 September and the Pratts moved to Mexico City shortly thereafter.

Pratt started as president of the Mexican mission in 1907. Church membership in Mexico more than doubled during Pratt’s first six years as mission president. By 1911, over a thousand church members lived in the Mexican Mission.

THE CRISTERO REBELLION

[ Cristero Rebellion, a peasant uprising from 1926 to 1929, pushed Mexico to the brink of political chaos. The Cristeros generally saw the conflict as a religious war against the anticlericalism of the Mexican government. This anticlericalism originated in northern Mexico, where North American-style entrepreneurs, Protestant converts, and ambitious politicians built a movement to transform their traditionally Catholic nation into a center of secular economic expansion. The movement’s leading proponent, Plutarco Elías Calles (president of Mexico, 1924–1928), placed rigid regulations on the church, including required registration of priests and the closing of church schools. The church responded with a strike—the cessation of religious services—which caused a panic among the faithful. In Jalisco and the surrounding states of central Mexico, this panic sparked a peasant rebellion. Government claims that the rebels were superstitious tools of scheming priests were largely propaganda. Only about 45 of the 3,600 priests in Mexico supported the rebellion. The Cristeros were indigenous and mestizo peasants whose motives for rebellion were mixed. Most acted to defend their faith against an expansive secular state, while others seized the opportunity to demand more extensive land reform] – https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/cristero-rebellion

The Cristero rebellion of 1926 had disrupted the religious atmosphere in Mexico for nine years and forced all foreign clergy out of Mexico. (The rebellion was instigated as a response to an executive decree by Mexican President Plutarco Elías Calles to strictly enforce Article 130 of the Constitution, a decision known as Calles Law. Calles sought to eliminate the power of the Catholic Church in Mexico, its affiliated organizations and to suppress popular religiosity.)

However, Mexico’s political climate gradually worsened. Porfirio Diaz, Mexico’s longtime dictator, lost control of the government and revolution ensued. Shortly after serious fighting began in Mexico City in 1913, the church’s First Presidency authorized the Pratts and the American missionaries to return to the United States. The Pratts moved to Salt Lake City in September 1913. Two years later, the First Presidency again instructed the Pratts to move, this time to Manassa, Colorado, and establish missionary work among Mexicans in the United States. After five years, in November 1918, church leaders moved the mission headquarters to El Paso, Texas, making it closer to the center of the vast mission territory. In March 1921, Pratt reopened missionary work in Mexico with eight missionaries. In November, jurisdiction of the Juárez Stake in Chihuahua was transferred to the Mexican Mission. This made Pratt president of all the church’s Spanish-speaking organizations. He continued to expand the mission, opening up work in southern California in 1924 and establishing a Los Angeles branch.

What this means for the Mormons is that their connection to Salt Lake is partially severed. The mexican Saints have no direct liaison to Salt Lake outside of mail and they must lead themselves inside the country. Rey Pratt the sort of local (As he had lived in Mexico off and on since he was 9 and had Mexican Citizenship) serving as the Mission President is the highest ranking leader they will have direct contact with for a almost a decade. And Rey seems to be well respected and manages keeping the Church there on track and growing.

LOCAL LEADERSHIP

MAP

Rey L. Pratt was a much loved mission president. When Pratt was assigned in 1924 to help open the Church’s mission in Argentina, (next Slide 7) he appointed Isaias Juarez to preside over the central Mexican District, with Abel Paez and Bernabe Parra as his counselors. These three men maintained stability and confidence in the small branches in Mexico. The branches survived their isolation from Salt Lake City and some even flourished. But much of the Church members and leader’s stability depended on Rey Pratt’s guidance and direction.

Pratt was also responsible for creating a new translation of the Book of Mormon into Spanish; he also translated many of the hymns of the church into Spanish.

EY PRATT (Death)

Disaster struck on April 14, 1931 following an operation for an intestinal rupture (appendicitis) and Rey L. Pratt died in Salt Lake City.

**Antoine Ridgeway Ivins**

Antoine Ridgeway Ivins was appointed to replace Rey Pratt. Ivins showed no interest in his new appointment. For nearly a year he never paid a visit to Mexico nor did he communicate with the leaders or members there. The Mexican Saints get together (The first Convention) and request the Church do something about the lack of leadership they are getting from Salt Lake and wished for a native born leader. The fact that they received no support nor a response to their petition for a native born mission leader increased the chasm. (He wasn’t lazy, just didn’t prioritize the Mexican Saints)

Antoine Ivins and Melvin J Ballard

Finally in the spring of 1932, nearly a year after his appointment as Mexican mission president, Antoine R. Ivins traveled with Elder Melvin J. Ballard to Mexico to meet with the petitioning Mexican Mormons (I believe this trip was in response to what is now understood as the 2nd Convention).

IVINS AND JUAREZ

Ivins approached the situation aggressively. He reprimanded the members for their assertiveness in sending a petition to Salt Lake City. President Antoine Ivins returned to the United States and left them alone once again. A silent arrangement between President Ivins and President Isaias Juarez continued through the end of Ivins term in 1934.

Harold Wilcken Pratt

The Cristero rebellion of 1926 had disrupted the religious atmosphere in Mexico for nine years and forced all foreign clergy out of Mexico. The ensuing isolation of the Mexican Mormon leaders from Church headquarters in Salt Lake City resulted in an understandable independence among them. Twice during Ivins serving as Mission President, the Mexican Saints had petitioned Church Headquarters to call a Mexican Citizen as Mission President

Seeing they have a mess on their hands the Church releases Antoine Ivins in 1934 and calls Rey Pratt’s half brother Harold Wilcken Pratt as the new Mexican Mission President. While Pratt had lived stateside most of his life he was born in Mexico July 16th 1899 and had served a mission in Mexico 1921-1923. Besides that he is Rey Pratt’s half brother. With that mustache what could go wrong?

Harold Wilcken Pratt [son of Helaman Pratt and Bertha Wilcken Pratt] was called to preside over the Mexican mission on January 1934 as clergy had recently been re-admitted into Mexico by the Mexican government. He presided for two and a half years from El Paso while he simultaneously continued to serve as counselor in the Juarez Stake Presidency.]

**Harold Pratt along with Abel Paez and Margarito Bautista (Valencia)**

The Mexican Saints independence away from Salt Lake’s Church Leadership and having a defunct Mission President in Ivins who failed to connect the local Saints to SLC’s Church Leadership, along with strong feelings of nationalism and ethnic pride persuaded several local leaders in and around Mexico City, to organize. Soon after news of Harold W. Pratt’s appointment reached Mexico City, Abel Páez, first counselor in the Mexican district presidency, was at work. Spurred on by his uncle, Margarito Bautista (Valencia), he summoned the Saints to a crisis conference now called the Third Convention.

**Who is Margarito Bautista**

Born in Mexico 1878 June 10, he converted to the Church Nov 10th 1901 in what he describes as a very spiritual experience. He has his conversion show up Stateside in the Improvement Era. Margarito Bautista was one of the most articulate members of the Church in Mexico. Bautista, a member for many years, was an experienced leader in the Church and was an ordained high priest. He had known and admired Rey L. Pratt. Bautista was an uncommonly literate man and a gifted orator who had worked to educate himself, studying English and living for many years in Salt Lake City, where he taught the Spanish-American branch’s Gospel Doctrine class in Sunday School. He had observed Church government over a number of years and had done ordinance work in the Salt Lake Temple. Like many temple workers, Bautista had become an expert genealogist. After 1934 he was back in Mexico helping the Mexican Saints trace their ancestry. Bautista took to heart many Book of Mormon prophecies that speak of the rise of the Lamanites. An avid scriptorian, he agreed with Rey L. Pratt and numerous other leaders that Mexican history was inseparable from Lamanite history and that Book of Mormon promises were inseparable from both. Rey Pratt had often expressed this theology to the Mexican Saints, many of whom took great pride in their mighty Lamanite ancestors. Bautista, stimulated by Rey Pratt’s sentiments, decided to write a book correlating Book of Mormon teachings with the Old Testament. Pratt, who was anxious to see more literature become available to the Mexican members, encouraged Bautista. Even after Pratt’s death, Bautista persisted, completing his manuscript in 1934.

**Isaias Juarez (District President) who was part of the first two Conventions is apprehensive about the preparations for this 3rd Convention**

“Sensing his people’s mood, Isaias Juárez, president of the mission’s Mexican district, was alarmed by their preparations for the Third Convention. He could see the implications perhaps better than anyone, having struggled through nine years and many storms to lead the mission. Juárez had learned to read the pulse of the Mexican Saints accurately. He knew this would be no simple petition; quite a few Mexican Mormons were determined to settle for nothing less than a Mexican leader, however unusual even odd, such a demand was for Mormons, whose authorities are always appointed from above, never “selected” by the congregation. Juárez also sensed accurately the mood of the authorities in Salt Lake City, he knew there would be no Mexican mission president forthcoming. The church, he reasoned, would not succumb to pressure politics, and he foresaw an unfortunate and inevitable clash.”

Juarez comes up against Paez

Isaias Juarez siding with the Church tried to dissuade Abel Paez out of confronting the Brethren in Salt Lake. Juárez was no passive fence-sitter. Having taken a position against the Third Convention, he then tried to soothe and persuade the Mexican Saints. Finally he issued a circular letter explaining that the meeting was unauthorized and out of order and that those who participated in it would be considered rebellious and therefore run the risk of excommunication. He contacted Harold Pratt posthaste and tried to sensitize him to the impending trouble and its roots. He met repeatedly with Abel Paez, trying to dissuade him.

**Paez waffling**

Juarez at first convinced Paez to call of his confrontation with Salt Lake but Paez returned to his position after speaking to Margarito Bautista

**The Third Convention**

The Third Convention convened on 26 April 1936. An observer was sent to take notes for Presidents Juárez and Pratt who did not attend. The Conventionists quickly decided that the Salt Lake City leaders had misunderstood their previous requests. Even though Harold Pratt had come from the Mormon colonies and was a Mexican citizen, he was not one by blood and race and certainly not one culturally. The Saints’ new petition was intended to convey their desire for a president who was Mexican by blood and spirit (de raza y sangre). Reasoning that the church’s General Authorities might not be aware of qualified Mexican members, the Third Convention decided to nominate a candidate. They considered several men, including Narciso Sandoval and Margarito Bautista. In the end, however, the convention settled on Abel Páez. They did not intend to demand Páez’s appointment but rather to clearly inform the Salt Lake City authorities that qualified Mexicans were available. After making their main decision, the Conventionists strengthened their petition in two ways. 1st wanting their leaders to recognize their intense seriousness, they agreed to gather signatures for the petition. 2nd, the Conventionists authorized a commission composed of Abel Páez, Narciso Sandoval, and Enrique González to travel to Salt Lake City and personally present the petition and supporting documents to the Mormon church’s General Authorities. Its business concluded, the Third Convention then adjourned.”

**Observer reports back**

When the Observer reported back to Harold Pratt and Isaias Juarez that Paez had gone through with the convention and relayed the outcome, Isaias Juárez wept hearing that his counselor of many years had betrayed him. “Harold Pratt realized that the Mexican brethren would soon implement their decisions. Seeking to prevent that, Pratt immediately contacted Abel Páez. They set a meeting for 30 April, the Thursday following the convention.”

The Meeting

On the appointed day Abel Páez met with Pratt, Juárez, and Bernabé Parra, the second counselor in the district presidency. After a long discussion, the men agreed on four points: 1st, Páez would terminate the Third Convention’s activities, including the gathering of signatures for the petition. Moreover, Páez would thereafter take no unilateral action on any matter without the district presidency’s consent, a hallowed leadership practice within the Mormon faith. 2nd, to show their unity and harmony, the four leaders- Páez, Juárez, Parra, and Pratt, would together visit all the local branches. Third, each would send a separate report of the Third Convention to the First Presidency of the Church. Fourth, all would prepare to visit Salt Lake City soon to discuss the Mexicans’ feelings and desires with the General Authorities. The upcoming October general conference was set as a tentative date for the trip.

Bur Pratt and Juarez Broke their Agreement

Páez was to be disappointed. As the district presidency visited the various branches, Pratt and Juárez seemed to equivocate on their position. Pratt said that he alone would take the petition to Salt Lake City at conference time. Then, instead of assuring church members that Third Convention desires would be enacted through regular church channels, Juárez and Pratt made it increasingly clear that both the convention’s procedures and its goals were out of order. They suggested that Páez and his colleagues were wolves among the Lord’s sheep and warned all members against listening to them. Mainline Mexican Mormons, approximately two-thirds of the membership, had made their anti-Third-Convention opinions known to Juárez and Parra, and no doubt Pratt had received communications on the issue from Salt Lake City. In any case, Conventionists were incensed. They wondered how Páez could believe that Pratt would do anything but present the Third Convention’s case negatively.

With Pratt and Juarez having broke the agreement and called out Paez and others as being in apostasy, Paez had no choice but to feel tricked and betrayed. Also Harold Pratt seemed to lose what little trust he had left with a significant number of the Mexican Saints. Paez felt he had little choice but to move forward with the original Third Convention’s ruling

**The Aftermath**

Almost One Third of the Mexican Saints disaffect. Salt Lake in turn moved forward with Pratt as the Mission President and 2000 of the mexican saints remained with the mainline faith in spite of many of them sharing frustration with Pratt and the Church generally.

The Third Conventionists maintained belief in Salt Lake’s Leadership and continued at least early on practicing Mainline orthodox Mormonism. But simply waited on Salt Lake to meet their demands.

**J Reuben Clark Letter**

In November of 1936 the First Presidency formally responded. J. Reuben Clark, Jr.,a member of the First Presidency and former U.S. Ambassador to Mexico prepared a carefully written letter to be read in all the congregations. Within, Clark declared that the people who signed the convention’s petition were entirely out of order; that the mission president was not the representative of the members to the president of the church but of the president to the people, and that this representative should therefore be acquainted with all the church procedures in order to prevent disorder and disruption; that none of the church’s missions were presided over by any other than men from the bosom of the church; that if the president of the church ever felt so inspired he would appoint one of their number to preside over them; that Mexicans had an unusual number of their own people in responsible positions anyway; that the Mexicans were not exclusively (among Mormons) of the blood of Israel, and that both Mexicans and North American Mormons were from the same family (that of Joseph); that all of the Book of Mormon’s promises applied as well to one people as to another, and so on for fourteen typescript pages.

But this doesn’t seem to fix the issue

**Salt Lake Tries Again though seemingly being tone deaf**

The First Presidency themselves learned quite soon that the letter had solved nothing. No doubt somewhat exasperated by this time, the authorities decided to send Antoine R. Ivins to Mexico one more time to attempt a reconciliation. Although Ivins was considered the church’s frontline expert on Mexico, his previous trips there had been largely unsuccessful because, as he perceived, the Mexican Mormons did not respect his authority (And Because he was an absent Leader). So Apostle George F. Richards, one of the senior members of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, was appointed to accompany Ivins.

What Could Go Wrong?

**Outcome of that Visit**

Apostle George F Richards & Antoine R. Ivins never address the people and are put back on a train fearing they will be arrested by Mexican Officials.

LDS Leaders misunderstood the 3rd Convention as imposing Paez be called rather than showing there were several worthy Mexican Nationals who potentially could be called and hence had a tone of distrust and misunderstanding and magnified the situation.

The Church begin Disciplinary measures. On 6, 7, and 8 May 1937, courts were convened in San Pedro Mártir and the sentences handed down. Andres C. Gonzalez Jr. wrote that eight Conventionist leaders were excommunicated for rebellion (having worked against the mission authorities), insubordination (having completely disobeyed the orders of mission authorities), and apostasy (having failed to recognize the Mormon church’s authority).

A Serious divide ensued between those loyal to the mainline Church and the third Conventionists. Distrust and bad mouthing persisted and eventually deep separation between the two groups followed. Hence an apostasy of ⅓ of the Mexican Saints

**What Happened to the Third Conventionists**

They organized Sunday Schools, conducted sacrament meetings, established “Mutual Improvement Associations” (MIA, the church’s youth organization), and functioned very much like a normal Mormon congregation. Like the mainline church, they blessed infants, baptized children, and ordained men to the priesthood.

Conventionist men and women were sent out as missionaries to “preach the word” to all who would listen.

Constructed at least six new meetinghouses and, in accordance with Mormon custom, dedicated them to the Lord.

Produced some religious literature, for example; a magazine entitled El Sendero Lamanita (The Lamanite Path), which contained articles such as “How the Gospel Came to Mexico” and “The Blessed Gentiles about which the Scriptures Speak,” and reports of various convention conferences and activities

**Efforts to bring them back into the fold**

Finally the Church sees its hardline approach doesn’t work. And under George Albert Smith’s presidency the effort to love these saints and to show kindness and to interact with them in healthy ways begins to make headway

**Arwell Pierce**

Arwell Pierce was a month short of being sixty years old when he entered Mexico as mission president. Given his age, some wondered if he would be up to the task of holding the Church together in Mexico, a challenge that had taxed a series of mission presidents beyond their capabilities. Actually, Pierce’s age may have worked in his favor; the problems in Mexico called for someone with patience, wisdom, insight, and compassion—characteristics frequently associated with maturity and possessed in good measure by President Pierce.

Pierce’s assigned task was to bring Third Conventionists back to the fold. President David O. McKay had told him that “we don’t have a divided mission; we have a big family quarrel,” adding that “you are the Abraham Lincoln who must save this union.”

Arwell Pierce observed that their reasons for apostasy were certainly not doctrinal, and yet Conventionists were outside the community of the Church. Studying the situation, he wondered how brotherhood could have decayed so completely. During the five years since the schism, the issues had become clouded, remembrances diffused or altered, and passions changed. Slowly and painstakingly, he put all his diplomatic skills to the task. Realizing that feelings had been hurt, he set out to heal those wounds. Although the Conventionist’s initial response was antagonism,that soon changed—first to respect and later to admiration, in part because Pierce met every travail with kindness and understanding. Pierce began by attending Third Convention meetings and conferences. Slowly and carefully, he introduced himself and built friendships with Third Convention members and leaders. He even tried to assist the Convention in its own programs, inviting its members to the mission home to pass on information from Salt Lake City, giving advice when asked, and distributing recently translated Church literature. And he talked with Abel Páez and his wife, also Othón Espinoza, Apolonio Arzate, Julio García, and even Margarito Bautista, all of whom had been principal leaders in the Third Convention. Always ready to listen and to understand, he extended personal hospitality and acceptance unconditionally. After weighing all that he had heard, Pierce concluded that the Third Convention problem could have been handled better. Given the circumstances, he even thought that some of the Convention’s complaints were justified. Although having an ethnic Mexican mission president was the Third Conventionists’ primary concern, they also wanted a building program for chapels, access to Church literature, and an opportunity for their young people to go on missions—all privileges that members in the U.S. had. They also wanted an educational system for their children like the system that the Anglo members had established in northern Mexico. Pierce realized that he did not object to the Conventionists’ goals, although one could legitimately wonder how programs to achieve them could possibly have been funded in the 1930s. On the other hand, he saw how the Third Conventionists’ methods for achieving their goals had brought them trouble. Pierce did not approve of the Third Convention’s rebellion and withdrawal from the Church. Because of his willingness to listen, however, disagreeing people, for the first time in nearly a decade, were discussing the issues rather than shouting about them. In the meantime, the Conventionists had generally maintained doctrinal integrity, had done a lot of proselyting in central Mexico, and had promoted much interest in the Book of Mormon. Given all of these factors, reunification was possible and desirable. So Pierce listened, argued, lectured, sympathized, persuaded, and worked long hours. He often told them “the brethren are willing to give you everything you want, but not the way you want it.” The Conventionists recognized him as a friend, its leaders even asking him to speak in Convention conferences. He did so, carefully honoring their confidence in the initial stages by avoiding sensitive issues, speaking instead on “neutral” subjects such as prayer. The Third Conventionists began to visit mainline Church meetings, and Pierce characteristically asked them to sit near the front whereas in years past, when Conventionists had visited a mainline branch, the seats would empty of mainline members as quickly as the Conventionists sat down. Finally, Páez began to soften and warm up to Pierce and started to think with cautious enthusiasm about reunification.

**They return to the fold**

Eventually 1200 Third Conventionists returned under George Albert Smith’s Leadership in 1946

Several members of the Third Convention were temporarily excommunicated by the LDS Church during the period in which it was active, although most of these were changed to the lesser punishment of disfellowshipment by President George Albert Smith in 1946, signaling a compromise. Rapprochement continued with President Smith’s visit to Mexico that year, resulting in most Third Conventionists returning to the fellowship of the LDS Church.

One last loose end SIX NEW MEETING HOUSES?

Though scholars had believed the Third Convention movement had died out by the 1970s and ’80s, anthropologist Thomas W. Murphy located an active Third Conventionist community in Ozumba, Mexico in 1996. The group was situated in Colonia Industrial, founded in 1947 as the community of Margarito Bautista, a prominent Third Conventionist. As of 2011, there are 800 people living in Colonia Industrial, and all are members of a church officially named “El Reino de Dios en su Plenitud” (The Kingdom of God in its Fullness), though adherents preferred to call themselves “Mormons.” The group practiced plural marriage and communal principles of the law of consecration, and seemed to be moderately affluent. They were affiliated with the Apostolic United Brethren Mormon fundamentalist church, and saw Owen Allred as a prophet.

Another Third Conventionist group about 300 strong, also rediscovered by Murphy in 1997, exists in San Gabriel Ometotztla, Puebla. It is called La Iglesia de los Santos de la Plenitud de los Tiempos (The Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Fullness of Times).

SLIDE SHOW for this Episode – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/The-Third-Convention.pdf

RESOURCES:
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/global-histories/mexico/stories-of-faith/mx-03-a-division-in-the-church?lang=eng

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Convention

https://web.archive.org/web/20080907191615/http://www.orsonprattbrown.com/MexicanMission/third-convention.html

https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=130069006013112011119070120069002031034018053020030049097003103125124101002069088122020018034045018032097090109029113124110079044016056009084006119098002029102121123003034034024027067003069086126073078079091000110096123064119084011086021080095079125006&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_in_Mexico

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1972/09/mormons-in-mexico-the-first-96-years?lang=eng

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margarito_Bautista

https://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_family_histories/helaman-pratt/photos-bertha.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rey_Pratt

https://mx.laiglesiadejesucristo.org/historia-de-la-iglesia-en-mexico/pioneros/narciso-sandoval

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cristero-2.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4OgI2xuItQ

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-was-the-cristero-war.html

http://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_family_histories/helaman-pratt/joseph-pratt.html

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/margarito-bautista-1878?lang=eng

http://labola.com.mx/la-bola-3/zapata-donde-se-unen-los-colores/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43040563#metadata_info_tab_contents

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/a-shepherd-to-mexicos-saints-arwell-l-pierce-and-the-third-convention/

https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/collection/cms/search/searchterm/Fernando%20R.%20and%20Enriqueta%20Gomez%20Mormon%20Mexican%20History%20Collection/field/event/mode/exact/conn/and

The post Mormonism LIVE: 101: The Third Convention appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 377: Quick Lesson in Rational Thinking** Nov 07, 2022
Just a quick lesson on how rational thinking works. If anyone views/listens to this and would like to debate a problematic issue in Mormonism or disagree with my approach to rational thinking, please email me at MormonDiscussionsPodcasts AT Gamil DOT Com as I would love to continue the conversation

The post Mormon Discussion: 377: Quick Lesson in Rational Thinking appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 100: 100th Episode Super Show** Nov 03, 2022
To celebrate our 100th episode, we invite all of you to join us as we take a look back at the past 99 episodes and share which have been most meaningful and which are our favorites and we will be taking calls from you our listeners and letting you share with us which ones meant the most to you!

The post Mormonism LIVE: 100: 100th Episode Super Show appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 099: The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith The Glass Looker** Oct 27, 2022
On this week’s episode we take a deeper look at the 1826 trial in Bainbridge, NY. We examine what led to the trial, what witnesses claimed, what we know about the trial proceedings, how Smith and Stowell got introduced to each other, and a few other interesting facts along the way that make this such an interesting episode in Church history.

This outline was used in preparation for **Mormonism LIVE: 099 : The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith, The Glass Looker** – https://youtu.be/A2JxyoOtNlM

On this week’s episode we take a deeper look at the 1826 trial in Bainbridge, NY. We examine what led to the trial, what witnesses claimed, what we know about the trial proceedings, how Smith and Stowell got introduced to each other, and a few other interesting facts along the way that make this such an interesting episode in Church history.

**A.) SET THE STAGE**

Spring of 1825, Joseph Smith is at Simpson (Simeon in some records) Stowell’s home in palmyra when Simpson’s father Josiah Stowell visits him and Joseph Smith uses his seer ability, presumably the stone in the hat and proceeds to amaze those in attendance with a couple of “Remote Viewing” performances such as describing Josiah’s house and outhouses correctly while all of them are at palmyra and Stowell’s property for which presumably Joseph Smith had never seen, is located in Bainbridge NY

Josiah Stowell, so amazed at the Prophet’s ability, hires him to both work the farm and to lead treasure digs near Stowell’s property in NY (SLIDE 1)

Several Members of Stowell’s family, Joseph Smith Jr. and Sr., Isaac Hale and other members of the Hale family and a few others make a “mining” agreement on Nov 1st 1825 (SLIDE 2 & 3) and the Church agrees it is Authentic

Joseph Smith is living on Stowell’s property for about half a year working the farm and doing these treasure digs but they are finding absolutely nothing and these digs are failing at every turn.

Members of Stowell’s family along with others in the community perceive that Stowell is being taken advantage of and on March 20th 1826 Joseph Smith is brought before the court on charges of being a “disorderly person and an imposter”

The trial is first printed in Fraser Magazine February 1873 Edition and then reprinted again in the Utah Christian Advocate January 1886 Edition (SLIDE 4 & 5)
Frasers Magazine 12 July 1873

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/images/frasersmagazine08unkngoog_0243-0244.jpg (Document page 229 [pdf 248])
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-docket-entry-20-march-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1

**B.) Where does the author in Fraser’s Magazine locate this trial record?**

In Bainbridge? Nope. From enemies? Nope. Rather from an old lady in Salt Lake City who kept records of Joseph Smith’s altercations with the Law. (SLIDE 6)

It gets worse though because the Utah Christian Advocate says this was taken directly from the record books of a bainbridge justice of the peace by a daughter or niece (suspicion since he doesn’t know) who tore the record out of the books and the author claims he verified. (SLIDE 6)

**C.) Capt’n Kidd**

W.D Purple is in 1877 in the Chenango Union is giving us info about these treasure Digging activities and implies that Stowell is looking for Capt’n Kidd’s treasure.

Notice the implication that Stowell knows the story of Capt’n Kidd – hence we should expect that Joseph is informed about said stories too. Not appropriate to start with the assumption he may not have known them. More rational to start with he did. (SLIDE 7)

According to J. H. Kennedy, Joseph “made confession” that the autobiography of Captain Kidd “made a deep impression upon him.” Kennedy does not say in what context Smith made this “confession.” Palmyra native Philetus B. Spear recalled in an 1873 interview that as a boy Joseph “had for a library a copy of the ‘Arabian Nights,’ stories of Captain Kidd, and a few novels.”89 Pomeroy Tucker also mentions Joseph’s youthful fascination with Captain Kidd, Stephen Burroughs the counterfeiter, and others, noting that such stories “presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions.”90 Ellen E. Dickinson similarly wrote: It is said that Joseph at an early age could read, but not write; and when quite young committed these lines to memory from the story of Captain Kidd, the notorious pirate, which seemed to give him great pleasure: “My name was Robert Kidd, As I sailed, as I sailed; And most wickedly I did As I sailed, as I sailed.”91

**D.) The Proceedings themselves**

Living w/ Stowell (5 Months) most of the time and a small part of time out looking for mines. But mostly farm work and going to school

Some quotes indicate that Smith used treasure digging as a way to get out of farm work while still bringing in the needed income.

Had been employed to work at the farm part time

**E.) Joseph Smith claims he is in Bainbridge “spending a small time looking for mines but mostly working for Stowell on the farming and “Going to School”**

He is 20/21 during the time of these digs. What school would a frontier adult go to that he could be speaking of? College/university? Trade School?

**F.) He mentions his seer stone and his seeing ability.**

Work had slowed down because this line of work was bad for his eyes. They were sore

He was turning down most work

But with stowell he found some “oar” (ore) that looked like gold

But its not gold…. So why is such promising?

They would find a tail feather though not the buried treasure that was supposed to be with it. (Could the foretold item have been planted by Smith before or during the dig? Does this not best explain what is happening?)

He describes Stowell’s house and outhouse from Palmyra while staying at “Simpson Stowell’s” (Is this a relative of Josiah? Sources claim this is Josiah’s son) Could Stowell’s son have described Josiah’s property at an earlier time? Could Joseph have had enough info to make an educated guess? (This is how psychics work)

**G.) Testimony of Others**

Horace Stowell testified

Arad Stowell Testified

Pretends to read a book with his back turned to the book, with the book open lying upon a white cloth, while using the stone

This seems significant as if it points to a photographic memory and that as far as an outside observer could tell, he is doing the same sort of “translation work” as he did with the Book of Mormon

Rather than exclude all light he instead places his stone near a candle

Several seem disgusted as the fraud was so noticeable that they said it was palpable (almost a physical knowledge that he was a frauding them)

McMaster said Joseph claimed if he held his stone to the sun or candle (excluding light hurt his eyes so he declined to use the hat and instead choosing instead the Sun (or a candle)

Johnathon Thompson – Joseph told them where a trunk was buried and they dug 5’ and (someone or the group) heard the shovel hit what sounded like a plank or board.

“Two indians had buried the chest” – Lamanites. Joseph’s tales already have “Indians” involved. These indians fought and one killed the other and buried him in the hole “to Guard It”.

Isn’t Moroni a guardian Spirit of the same sort? (SLIDE 11 then back to 12) Below is a second hand report of how Joseph Smith Sr. described his son’s interaction with Moroni

He believes without seeing a chest that he certainly must of hit it (most rational explanation in his mind for the sound)

in spite of it sinking into the earth but as outsiders can we see how irrational that perspective is. That a sound can provide one a conclusion in spite of needing magic in order to not see what should have been there and visible?

The trunk stayed at distance, just out of reach to touch or to be seen.

Isn’t that convenient

“Salt might be found in bainbridge”

Stolen items, ancient treasures, salt deposits

Thompson believes JS can discern with his stone and hat

“Witness lost some money and Joseph was able to describe the man Witness thought had taken it.”

**H.) Court Costs**

The costs themselves

**Court Charges: (Is this all in cents?)**

Court found defendant guilty

Cost warrant – 19 cents

Complaint upon Oath – 25.7

Witnesses – 87.5

Recognizince – 25

Mitimus – 19

Recognizince for Witness – 75

Subpoena – 18

TOTAL? **$2.68** (**verified by the docket commentary on such in next section**)

**IF THIS PROCEEDING IS TRUE, LDS APOLOGISTS STATE IT WOULD BE THE MOST DAMNING EVIDENCE AGAINST MORMONISM**

The Mormon writer Francis W. Kirkham just could not allow himself to believe that the 1826 court record was authentic. He, in fact, felt that if the transcript were authentic it would disprove Mormonism:

“A careful study of all facts regarding this alleged confession of Joseph Smith in a court of law that he had used a seer stone to find hidden treasure for purposes of fraud, must come to the conclusion that **no such record was ever made**, and therefore, is not in existence…. had he [Joseph Smith] made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church. (*A New Witness For Christ In America*, vol. 1, pages 385-387)

“If a court record could be identified, and if it contained a confession by Joseph Smith which revealed him to be a poor, ignorant, deluded, and superstitious person — unable himself to write a book of any consequence, and whose church could not endure because it attracted only similar persons of low mentality — if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that **his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance** which led them to follow him…. How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been the superstitious fraud which ‘the pages from a book’ declared he confessed to be?” (*Ibid*., p. 486-487)

The noted Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley published a book in which this statement appeared: “…if this court record is authentic it is **the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith**.” (*The Myth Makers*, 1961, page 142) On the same page we read that such a court record would be “the most **devastating blow to Smith** ever delivered.” Because he could see the serious implications of the matter, Dr. Nibley tried in every way possible to destroy the idea that the court record was an authentic document.

**I.) Additional Documentation**

Neeley’s Fee Bill – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-circa-9-november-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 (SLIDE 13)

Why this is important – Because once we find the additional documentation that verifies $2.68 as the total, we add credibility to the trial proceeding retelling (SLIDE 14)

2nd Fee Bill – Philip M. De Zeng https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 (SLIDE 15)

**J.) Surrounding Statements that shape our perception**

Oliver Cowdery claims Joseph was acquitted at the 1826 trial

“Oliver Cowdery, who did not attend the hearing (he met Joseph Smith about three years later), mentioned the most likely result in light of missing documentation, that Joseph was acquitted of being a disorderly person.”
(SLIDE 16)

Cowdery may be confusing an 1830 trial that he took part in where Joseph actually was acquitted though the Church’s footnote makes sense to me.

Should Cowdery’s non first hand telling be considered strong enough evidence to dismiss the alleged court proceeding? no

Defer to RFM

The first 1830 Trial – Court Case before Justice of the Peace Joseph Chamberlin, South Bainbridge, Chenango County, New York: Constable Ebenezer Hatch arrested Joseph Smith on June 30, 1830, held him over night, and brought him before Justice Joseph P. Chamberlin on a charge of being a disorderly person.

Abram Willard Benton, the man who filed the disorderly person complaint against Smith in 1830, also wrote an account of this 1830 trial.8 Benton also relates Stowell’s testimony: (https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm)

Josiah Stowell, a Mormonite, being sworn, testified that he positively knew that said Smith never had lied to, or deceived him, and did not believe he ever tried to deceive anybody else. (SLIDE 17)

“Did Smith ever tell you there was money hid in a certain place which he mentioned? **Yes.**
Did he tell you, you could find it by digging?
**Yes.**
Did you dig?
**Yes.**
Did you find any money?
**No.**
Did he not lie to you then, and deceive you?
**NO, the money was there, but we did not get quite to it!**
How do you know it was there?
**Smith said it was**. *( A. W. Benton, “Mormonites,” Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, April 9, 1831, p. 120, as reprinted in Francis W. Kirkham,* **A New Witness for Christ in America***, (Brigham Young University, 1959) II:467-468)*

*This is called circular reasoning and it is exemplified by Kerry Muhlstein (soundbite)*

“It is reported, and probably true, that he commenced his **juggling by stealing and hiding property belonging to his neighbors, and when inquiry was made, he would look in his stone, (his gift and power) and tell where it was**.”

Remember the Miners hill episode where in the “Mormon Cave” were found various animal remains and debris or items. (I think every instance of claims that Joseph Smith found lost property through a seer stone should note the most rational explanation is something other than the supernatural or magic.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4qiP2hZtcA

Compare to the feather story – Could Joseph have hid the feather before or during the dig? How’s that not the most rational answer especially in light of not finding the treasure that went with it.

SECOND 1830 TRIAL(actual newspaper article) – https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm (easier to read transcript)
Church description
“that he had been acquainted with Smith, the prisoner, for several years; that prisoner pretended to look in a certain glass, or stone, and said he could tell **where stolen goods were**, and could discover mines of gold and silver under ground (THOUGH NONE EVER FOUND); made some pretence at telling fortunes, but he, witness, never knew of prisoner’s finding any thing by his pretended art.”

Harris Stowell “hid a bag of grain in his barn, told Smith he had lost a bag of grain, and wished prisoner to find it; prisoner looked in his glass in vain, for he could not find it; prisoner, after using all his art for a number of days, **offered to give witness’ brother fifty cents (so his brother told witness,) to find where the grain was**, and tell him, prisoner, unbeknown to witness, so that Smith, the prisoner, might have the credit of finding the grain.” – https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm

Again we have Joseph Smith allegedly using deception to to give off the impression that he can find lost items.

Could not Joseph Smith have employed a similar tactic to have Simpson Stowell describe his father’s property so that Smith could later imply supernatural ability in describing Josiah Stowell’s farm?

The 2 1830 Trials (Only important as Cowdery said Smith was acquitted and likely was misremembering the 1830 rather than 1826
https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm

**K.) Other Interesting data points**

Ronald Jackson, a believing member forged a reprint of Wesley Walters discovery of the 1826 court docket http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no68.htm. Why does Jackson feel the need to do this? Because he believes the original is damning to Mormonism.

**CONCLUSION:**

Witness testimony implies that Joseph never found any treasure and that while many believed him to have real power, it was them accepting such on his word with either no results OR the belief on others that he had deceptively created the appearance of supernatural ability

Setting up the deception so that objects could be hidden and then discovered later under alleged magic

Through stealing property and then locating it for the victim

Placing items in places to be found later

Bribing individuals to give him information that he could then “reveal” to others later

(feather but not the accompanying treasure, stolen items, bribing a person’s family to tell him where their loved one hid the thing

When the rubber met the road and Joseph had any ample opportunity to actually locate something of value, he came up empty every single time.

**RESOURCES:**

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=GP-T26

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng

https://www.shields-research.org/General/LDS_Leaders/1stPres/Joseph_Smith/1826_Trial_Walters.htm

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/joseph-smith-and-the-1826-trial-new-evidence-and-new-difficulties/

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1504&context=byusq

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/introduction-to-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-circa-9-november-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-docket-entry-20-march-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/220141943.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45225965#metadata_info_tab_contents

https://watermark.silverchair.com/45227184.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAArowggK2BgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKnMIICowIBADCCApwGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMUJ6sRlPRmWN-EOEsAgEQgIICbdN47lit91anjntjBGUirES28IfmW249Mm-oEc8iXOiv-KT6ryM16M0YSHmj1vHN8Gs1h78CZnAg_3SwoPAA_MN5WDxWWN3WZ2S9TYVhhgbciCC6-VrApRswCYJLnhapCnHNEw6e-MUOPyF6LwbkwWG3VVMcWtO73IRWV8zy89aeTsy13t_uJZlJoT0pmIXhsM6rE5KULGjqEKAW97gaAW9NMJhWNBvS3ayJGcCEfimJ7GqN4FGZjItkOLzK0a49Sqg5oBHDvxi2L5l5KE3LSDwDGlU0Ux2hayjmJw1mUpiW0b-KUT8FuDmxxiPGQCGpWnghWKOf3kQaZs8CqVBFTMakXSaBplrw-kJMyEF7Lt7hDxOHdMx0L4lplEujRkQSAPbd299bOgKy3PCDWstnbGckbLLXW_2P2g17dhd4WQFLGpedntbWdTMinZHY4hfHxCF2qCLjFH54aSGGTe286zslE7Uv4AHZJco0LGO15tkDsju2wplN4hRmRe9YCLKBtJY6SMWwOuquJ1cuzMuKUVeL6bcowdP4cb9foLRLXT4PdEeBjilU9pd3MJDNeLLDWgYHwVSdHEfa5ZPBususc1DXIZgJGwhF9zkT3gNgIkCQrUlZGugMJKgbCp-k5sdLSDrhpsPzek8Mz3ss6KqMQY3wRvoDMx9oT5OT-NMG9qKYKws-xvmYzgc6ufxmQsV3IAOd0DlBeylpJgQyDqQr0r5GGDK2R2W5BMFBseh4hPxEBDn_OX204I_VzxkyMxCRVf20p06j2Apu6h8henels8KeYM66zinNRVB33i4Zv7FW0L4hoWRZHkzEqGKTcQ

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-1-agreement-of-josiah-stowell-and-others-1-november-1825/1

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no68.htm

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/48

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letters_by_Oliver_Cowdery_To_W.W._Phelps_on_the_Rise_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints/Letter_VIII

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/107

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2287&context=byusq

The post Mormonism LIVE: 099: The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith The Glass Looker appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

r/exmormon - The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith the Glass Looker — **Mormonism LIVE: 099: The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith The Glass Looker** Oct 27, 2022
On this week’s episode we take a deeper look at the 1826 trial in Bainbridge, NY. We examine what led to the trial, what witnesses claimed, what we know about the trial proceedings, how Smith and Stowell got introduced to each other, and a few other interesting facts along the way that make this such an interesting episode in Church history.

This outline was used in preparation for **Mormonism LIVE: 099 : The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith, The Glass Looker** – https://youtu.be/A2JxyoOtNlM

On this week’s episode we take a deeper look at the 1826 trial in Bainbridge, NY. We examine what led to the trial, what witnesses claimed, what we know about the trial proceedings, how Smith and Stowell got introduced to each other, and a few other interesting facts along the way that make this such an interesting episode in Church history.

**A.) SET THE STAGE**

Spring of 1825, Joseph Smith is at Simpson (Simeon in some records) Stowell’s home in palmyra when Simpson’s father Josiah Stowell visits him and Joseph Smith uses his seer ability, presumably the stone in the hat and proceeds to amaze those in attendance with a couple of “Remote Viewing” performances such as describing Josiah’s house and outhouses correctly while all of them are at palmyra and Stowell’s property for which presumably Joseph Smith had never seen, is located in Bainbridge NY

Josiah Stowell, so amazed at the Prophet’s ability, hires him to both work the farm and to lead treasure digs near Stowell’s property in NY (SLIDE 1)

Several Members of Stowell’s family, Joseph Smith Jr. and Sr., Isaac Hale and other members of the Hale family and a few others make a “mining” agreement on Nov 1st 1825 (SLIDE 2 & 3) and the Church agrees it is Authentic

Joseph Smith is living on Stowell’s property for about half a year working the farm and doing these treasure digs but they are finding absolutely nothing and these digs are failing at every turn.

Members of Stowell’s family along with others in the community perceive that Stowell is being taken advantage of and on March 20th 1826 Joseph Smith is brought before the court on charges of being a “disorderly person and an imposter”

The trial is first printed in Fraser Magazine February 1873 Edition and then reprinted again in the Utah Christian Advocate January 1886 Edition (SLIDE 4 & 5)
Frasers Magazine 12 July 1873

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/images/frasersmagazine08unkngoog_0243-0244.jpg (Document page 229 [pdf 248])
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-docket-entry-20-march-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1

**B.) Where does the author in Fraser’s Magazine locate this trial record?**

In Bainbridge? Nope. From enemies? Nope. Rather from an old lady in Salt Lake City who kept records of Joseph Smith’s altercations with the Law. (SLIDE 6)

It gets worse though because the Utah Christian Advocate says this was taken directly from the record books of a bainbridge justice of the peace by a daughter or niece (suspicion since he doesn’t know) who tore the record out of the books and the author claims he verified. (SLIDE 6)

**C.) Capt’n Kidd**

W.D Purple is in 1877 in the Chenango Union is giving us info about these treasure Digging activities and implies that Stowell is looking for Capt’n Kidd’s treasure.

Notice the implication that Stowell knows the story of Capt’n Kidd – hence we should expect that Joseph is informed about said stories too. Not appropriate to start with the assumption he may not have known them. More rational to start with he did. (SLIDE 7)

According to J. H. Kennedy, Joseph “made confession” that the autobiography of Captain Kidd “made a deep impression upon him.” Kennedy does not say in what context Smith made this “confession.” Palmyra native Philetus B. Spear recalled in an 1873 interview that as a boy Joseph “had for a library a copy of the ‘Arabian Nights,’ stories of Captain Kidd, and a few novels.”89 Pomeroy Tucker also mentions Joseph’s youthful fascination with Captain Kidd, Stephen Burroughs the counterfeiter, and others, noting that such stories “presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions.”90 Ellen E. Dickinson similarly wrote: It is said that Joseph at an early age could read, but not write; and when quite young committed these lines to memory from the story of Captain Kidd, the notorious pirate, which seemed to give him great pleasure: “My name was Robert Kidd, As I sailed, as I sailed; And most wickedly I did As I sailed, as I sailed.”91

**D.) The Proceedings themselves**

Living w/ Stowell (5 Months) most of the time and a small part of time out looking for mines. But mostly farm work and going to school

Some quotes indicate that Smith used treasure digging as a way to get out of farm work while still bringing in the needed income.

Had been employed to work at the farm part time

**E.) Joseph Smith claims he is in Bainbridge “spending a small time looking for mines but mostly working for Stowell on the farming and “Going to School”**

He is 20/21 during the time of these digs. What school would a frontier adult go to that he could be speaking of? College/university? Trade School?

**F.) He mentions his seer stone and his seeing ability.**

Work had slowed down because this line of work was bad for his eyes. They were sore

He was turning down most work

But with stowell he found some “oar” (ore) that looked like gold

But its not gold…. So why is such promising?

They would find a tail feather though not the buried treasure that was supposed to be with it. (Could the foretold item have been planted by Smith before or during the dig? Does this not best explain what is happening?)

He describes Stowell’s house and outhouse from Palmyra while staying at “Simpson Stowell’s” (Is this a relative of Josiah? Sources claim this is Josiah’s son) Could Stowell’s son have described Josiah’s property at an earlier time? Could Joseph have had enough info to make an educated guess? (This is how psychics work)

**G.) Testimony of Others**

Horace Stowell testified

Arad Stowell Testified

Pretends to read a book with his back turned to the book, with the book open lying upon a white cloth, while using the stone

This seems significant as if it points to a photographic memory and that as far as an outside observer could tell, he is doing the same sort of “translation work” as he did with the Book of Mormon

Rather than exclude all light he instead places his stone near a candle

Several seem disgusted as the fraud was so noticeable that they said it was palpable (almost a physical knowledge that he was a frauding them)

McMaster said Joseph claimed if he held his stone to the sun or candle (excluding light hurt his eyes so he declined to use the hat and instead choosing instead the Sun (or a candle)

Johnathon Thompson – Joseph told them where a trunk was buried and they dug 5’ and (someone or the group) heard the shovel hit what sounded like a plank or board.

“Two indians had buried the chest” – Lamanites. Joseph’s tales already have “Indians” involved. These indians fought and one killed the other and buried him in the hole “to Guard It”.

Isn’t Moroni a guardian Spirit of the same sort? (SLIDE 11 then back to 12) Below is a second hand report of how Joseph Smith Sr. described his son’s interaction with Moroni

He believes without seeing a chest that he certainly must of hit it (most rational explanation in his mind for the sound)

in spite of it sinking into the earth but as outsiders can we see how irrational that perspective is. That a sound can provide one a conclusion in spite of needing magic in order to not see what should have been there and visible?

The trunk stayed at distance, just out of reach to touch or to be seen.

Isn’t that convenient

“Salt might be found in bainbridge”

Stolen items, ancient treasures, salt deposits

Thompson believes JS can discern with his stone and hat

“Witness lost some money and Joseph was able to describe the man Witness thought had taken it.”

**H.) Court Costs**

The costs themselves

**Court Charges: (Is this all in cents?)**

Court found defendant guilty

Cost warrant – 19 cents

Complaint upon Oath – 25.7

Witnesses – 87.5

Recognizince – 25

Mitimus – 19

Recognizince for Witness – 75

Subpoena – 18

TOTAL? **$2.68** (**verified by the docket commentary on such in next section**)

**IF THIS PROCEEDING IS TRUE, LDS APOLOGISTS STATE IT WOULD BE THE MOST DAMNING EVIDENCE AGAINST MORMONISM**

The Mormon writer Francis W. Kirkham just could not allow himself to believe that the 1826 court record was authentic. He, in fact, felt that if the transcript were authentic it would disprove Mormonism:

“A careful study of all facts regarding this alleged confession of Joseph Smith in a court of law that he had used a seer stone to find hidden treasure for purposes of fraud, must come to the conclusion that **no such record was ever made**, and therefore, is not in existence…. had he [Joseph Smith] made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church. (*A New Witness For Christ In America*, vol. 1, pages 385-387)

“If a court record could be identified, and if it contained a confession by Joseph Smith which revealed him to be a poor, ignorant, deluded, and superstitious person — unable himself to write a book of any consequence, and whose church could not endure because it attracted only similar persons of low mentality — if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that **his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance** which led them to follow him…. How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been the superstitious fraud which ‘the pages from a book’ declared he confessed to be?” (*Ibid*., p. 486-487)

The noted Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley published a book in which this statement appeared: “…if this court record is authentic it is **the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith**.” (*The Myth Makers*, 1961, page 142) On the same page we read that such a court record would be “the most **devastating blow to Smith** ever delivered.” Because he could see the serious implications of the matter, Dr. Nibley tried in every way possible to destroy the idea that the court record was an authentic document.

**I.) Additional Documentation**

Neeley’s Fee Bill – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-circa-9-november-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 (SLIDE 13)

Why this is important – Because once we find the additional documentation that verifies $2.68 as the total, we add credibility to the trial proceeding retelling (SLIDE 14)

2nd Fee Bill – Philip M. De Zeng https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1 (SLIDE 15)

**J.) Surrounding Statements that shape our perception**

Oliver Cowdery claims Joseph was acquitted at the 1826 trial

“Oliver Cowdery, who did not attend the hearing (he met Joseph Smith about three years later), mentioned the most likely result in light of missing documentation, that Joseph was acquitted of being a disorderly person.”
(SLIDE 16)

Cowdery may be confusing an 1830 trial that he took part in where Joseph actually was acquitted though the Church’s footnote makes sense to me.

Should Cowdery’s non first hand telling be considered strong enough evidence to dismiss the alleged court proceeding? no

Defer to RFM

The first 1830 Trial – Court Case before Justice of the Peace Joseph Chamberlin, South Bainbridge, Chenango County, New York: Constable Ebenezer Hatch arrested Joseph Smith on June 30, 1830, held him over night, and brought him before Justice Joseph P. Chamberlin on a charge of being a disorderly person.

Abram Willard Benton, the man who filed the disorderly person complaint against Smith in 1830, also wrote an account of this 1830 trial.8 Benton also relates Stowell’s testimony: (https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm)

Josiah Stowell, a Mormonite, being sworn, testified that he positively knew that said Smith never had lied to, or deceived him, and did not believe he ever tried to deceive anybody else. (SLIDE 17)

“Did Smith ever tell you there was money hid in a certain place which he mentioned? **Yes.**
Did he tell you, you could find it by digging?
**Yes.**
Did you dig?
**Yes.**
Did you find any money?
**No.**
Did he not lie to you then, and deceive you?
**NO, the money was there, but we did not get quite to it!**
How do you know it was there?
**Smith said it was**. *( A. W. Benton, “Mormonites,” Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, April 9, 1831, p. 120, as reprinted in Francis W. Kirkham,* **A New Witness for Christ in America***, (Brigham Young University, 1959) II:467-468)*

*This is called circular reasoning and it is exemplified by Kerry Muhlstein (soundbite)*

“It is reported, and probably true, that he commenced his **juggling by stealing and hiding property belonging to his neighbors, and when inquiry was made, he would look in his stone, (his gift and power) and tell where it was**.”

Remember the Miners hill episode where in the “Mormon Cave” were found various animal remains and debris or items. (I think every instance of claims that Joseph Smith found lost property through a seer stone should note the most rational explanation is something other than the supernatural or magic.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4qiP2hZtcA

Compare to the feather story – Could Joseph have hid the feather before or during the dig? How’s that not the most rational answer especially in light of not finding the treasure that went with it.

SECOND 1830 TRIAL(actual newspaper article) – https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm (easier to read transcript)
Church description
“that he had been acquainted with Smith, the prisoner, for several years; that prisoner pretended to look in a certain glass, or stone, and said he could tell **where stolen goods were**, and could discover mines of gold and silver under ground (THOUGH NONE EVER FOUND); made some pretence at telling fortunes, but he, witness, never knew of prisoner’s finding any thing by his pretended art.”

Harris Stowell “hid a bag of grain in his barn, told Smith he had lost a bag of grain, and wished prisoner to find it; prisoner looked in his glass in vain, for he could not find it; prisoner, after using all his art for a number of days, **offered to give witness’ brother fifty cents (so his brother told witness,) to find where the grain was**, and tell him, prisoner, unbeknown to witness, so that Smith, the prisoner, might have the credit of finding the grain.” – https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm

Again we have Joseph Smith allegedly using deception to to give off the impression that he can find lost items.

Could not Joseph Smith have employed a similar tactic to have Simpson Stowell describe his father’s property so that Smith could later imply supernatural ability in describing Josiah Stowell’s farm?

The 2 1830 Trials (Only important as Cowdery said Smith was acquitted and likely was misremembering the 1830 rather than 1826
https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1830.htm

**K.) Other Interesting data points**

Ronald Jackson, a believing member forged a reprint of Wesley Walters discovery of the 1826 court docket http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no68.htm. Why does Jackson feel the need to do this? Because he believes the original is damning to Mormonism.

**CONCLUSION:**

Witness testimony implies that Joseph never found any treasure and that while many believed him to have real power, it was them accepting such on his word with either no results OR the belief on others that he had deceptively created the appearance of supernatural ability

Setting up the deception so that objects could be hidden and then discovered later under alleged magic

Through stealing property and then locating it for the victim

Placing items in places to be found later

Bribing individuals to give him information that he could then “reveal” to others later

(feather but not the accompanying treasure, stolen items, bribing a person’s family to tell him where their loved one hid the thing

When the rubber met the road and Joseph had any ample opportunity to actually locate something of value, he came up empty every single time.

**RESOURCES:**

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=GP-T26

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng

https://www.shields-research.org/General/LDS_Leaders/1stPres/Joseph_Smith/1826_Trial_Walters.htm

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/joseph-smith-and-the-1826-trial-new-evidence-and-new-difficulties/

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1504&context=byusq

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/introduction-to-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fee-bill-circa-9-november-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-docket-entry-20-march-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/220141943.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45225965#metadata_info_tab_contents

https://watermark.silverchair.com/45227184.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAArowggK2BgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKnMIICowIBADCCApwGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMUJ6sRlPRmWN-EOEsAgEQgIICbdN47lit91anjntjBGUirES28IfmW249Mm-oEc8iXOiv-KT6ryM16M0YSHmj1vHN8Gs1h78CZnAg_3SwoPAA_MN5WDxWWN3WZ2S9TYVhhgbciCC6-VrApRswCYJLnhapCnHNEw6e-MUOPyF6LwbkwWG3VVMcWtO73IRWV8zy89aeTsy13t_uJZlJoT0pmIXhsM6rE5KULGjqEKAW97gaAW9NMJhWNBvS3ayJGcCEfimJ7GqN4FGZjItkOLzK0a49Sqg5oBHDvxi2L5l5KE3LSDwDGlU0Ux2hayjmJw1mUpiW0b-KUT8FuDmxxiPGQCGpWnghWKOf3kQaZs8CqVBFTMakXSaBplrw-kJMyEF7Lt7hDxOHdMx0L4lplEujRkQSAPbd299bOgKy3PCDWstnbGckbLLXW_2P2g17dhd4WQFLGpedntbWdTMinZHY4hfHxCF2qCLjFH54aSGGTe286zslE7Uv4AHZJco0LGO15tkDsju2wplN4hRmRe9YCLKBtJY6SMWwOuquJ1cuzMuKUVeL6bcowdP4cb9foLRLXT4PdEeBjilU9pd3MJDNeLLDWgYHwVSdHEfa5ZPBususc1DXIZgJGwhF9zkT3gNgIkCQrUlZGugMJKgbCp-k5sdLSDrhpsPzek8Mz3ss6KqMQY3wRvoDMx9oT5OT-NMG9qKYKws-xvmYzgc6ufxmQsV3IAOd0DlBeylpJgQyDqQr0r5GGDK2R2W5BMFBseh4hPxEBDn_OX204I_VzxkyMxCRVf20p06j2Apu6h8henels8KeYM66zinNRVB33i4Zv7FW0L4hoWRZHkzEqGKTcQ

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-1-agreement-of-josiah-stowell-and-others-1-november-1825/1

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no68.htm

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/48

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letters_by_Oliver_Cowdery_To_W.W._Phelps_on_the_Rise_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints/Letter_VIII

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/107

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2287&context=byusq

The post Mormonism LIVE: 099: The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith The Glass Looker appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 098: Gold Gifts, Deeds, & Harsh Measures** Oct 20, 2022
In this Episode Bill and RFM will go into a story few members know about in regards to the Prophet Joseph Smith and one of his young plural wives. It involves some re-gifting, a land deal, and Harsh Measures

T-Shirt Contest Voting takes place here – https://forms.gle/MzBroWzRvk7EFEpQ9

A.) Lucien Woodworth born April 3rd 1799

becomes a close associate of Joseph Smith around the year 1841

a.) Appointed aide-de-camp in Nauvoo Legion, May 1841

b.) Member of Nauvoo Masonic Lodge

c.) Admitted to Council of Fifty, 11 Mar. 1844

d.) Traveled to Texas to negotiate with Sam Houston for possible Latter-day Saint settlement, 1844.

e.) Sent by JS to deliver letter explaining Latter-day Saint difficulties to Illinois governor Thomas Ford, 22 June 1844.

Married Phebe Watrous in 1825 and had at least 3 children (seen in 1850 Census)

The oldest of those children is Flora Ann Woodworth born June 12, 1826 according to one genealogy site and November 14, 1826 according to Brian Hales

B.) The Interactions between The Woodworth family and the Smiths generally

March 31, 1843 ~ Friday On the 31 friday I spent the afternoon at Mr Lucian Woodworth’s in company with Joseph Smith, Hiram Smith, Heber C. Kimball Orson Hyde, a Br Chase with our wives we had a feast of a fat turkey & had a good time (Before her Sealing to JS most likely) –

C.) Strange Interactions with potential suitor

nineteen-year-old Orange Wight (Son of Lyman Wight) pursued Flora Ann and is interrupted and offered a ride by Joseph Smith

He wrote, “[Having just returned from a mission] I concluded to lo[o]k about and try to pick up one or more of the young Ladies before they were all Gone, so I commenced keeping company with Flora Woodworth… [We were walking near Joseph’s home when he (JS) rode up in a carriage and invited us to take a ride]

D.) William Clayton records multiple visits by the Prophet to see young Flora Ann Woodworth

March 31, 1843 ~ Friday On the 31 friday I spent the afternoon at Mr Lucian Woodworth’s in company with Joseph Smith, Hiram Smith, Heber C. Kimball Orson Hyde, a Br Chase with our wives we had a feast of a fat turkey & had a good time (Before her Sealing to JS most likely)

May 2nd: “Joseph rode out today with Flora W.”

June 1st: “Evening Joseph rode in the carriage with Flora.”

August 26th: “Hyrum and I rode up to my house and Joseph met Mrs. Wdth and F[lora] and conversed some time.”

August 28th: “President Joseph met Ms Wdth at my house.”

August 29th: “A.M. at the Temple. President Joseph at my house with Miss Wdth.”

E.) Joseph Smith seems to be in the picture a lot but this is because 16 year old Flora Ann has by the Spring of 1843 become a plural wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith

1.) In the spring of 1843 Joseph Smith was sealed to 16 year old Flora Ann Woodworth

According to Brian Hales “A March 4, 1843, entry in the Prophet’s diary appears to have been written “Woodworth,” which is crossed out and is difficult to discern. The name “Woodworth” appears interlineally above in shorthand, so it is possible they were sealed that day.”

Those visits by Smith to Flora recorded by Clayton – they have already been sealed/married by then

2.) That story w/ Orange Wight… here is the rest of the story

“I was walking along the street with Flora near the Prophet’s residence when he, Joseph, drove, up in his carriage, stopped and spoke to I and Flora and asked us to get in the carriage and ride with him. He opened the door for us and when we were seated opposite to him he told the driver to drive on. We went to the [Nauvoo] temple lot and many other places during the afternoon and then he drove to the Woodworth house and we got out and went in. After we got in the house Sister Woodworth took me in another room and told me that Flora was one of Joseph’s wives. I was aware or believed that Eliza R. Snow and the two Partridge girls were his wives but was not informed about Flora. But now Sister Woodworth gave me all the information necessary, so I knew Joseph believed and practiced polygamy…Now as a matter of corse I at once—after giving her Flora/ a mild lecture left her and looked for a companion in other places, and where I could be more sure. I was now called on a mission to go up the river 5 or 6 hundred miles to make lumber for the Nauvoo house and Temple.”

Mild Lecture

Joseph gets him out of town sending him on a mission 500 to 600 miles away….

F.) The Gift Giving of a Gold Watch

Emma somehow becomes aware that Flora Woodworth has on her person a Gold watch which she comprehends is the Gold Watch of her Husband and the Prophet Joseph Smith (RFM to give most rational explanation). We know this because William Clayton records the following

“President Joseph told me that he had difficulty with E[mma] yesterday. She rode up to Woodworths with him and called while he came to the Temple. When he returned she was demanding the gold watch of F[lora]. He reproved her for her evil treatment.”

No record exists of the exact date of the marriage or the gift-giving of the watch (According to Hales)

The story implies that Joseph didn’t knowwhen dropping off emma at the woodworths that a conflict would ensue over the watch. The Smith’s and Woodworths hung out a lot it seems so it likely it all seemed normal when he dropped Emma off

RFM – when did Emma discover Flora had JS watch?

Joseph seems to only figure out that he has been caught when he returns to pick Emma up and she is in the middle of a confrontation with Flora demanding the watch back

How embarrassing for Emma

Joseph seems to have a history of giving Gold watches to his plural wives

The Prophet may have given a gold watch to several of his plural wives. Mary Ann Barzee Boice remembered that she was “acquainted with Eliza R. Snow Smith, his [Joseph Smith’s] wife and saw his gold watch which she carries.” Mary Ann Boice in John Boice and Mary Ann (Barzee) Boice “Record,” MS 8883, Microfilm of manuscript, 174.

link to an image of the gold watch Joseph Smith gave to Eliza R. Snow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eliza_R_Snow_pocket_watch_given_by_Joseph_Smith.jpeg

G.) According to Clayton the argument that started when Smith showed up on the scene to find Emma in a confrontation with Flora continued on the carriage ride home and once the Smith’s got back to their home. George D. Smith, ed., An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1995), 119.

“President Joseph told me that he had difficulty with E[mma] yesterday. She rode up to Woodworths with him and called while he came to the Temple. When he returned she was demanding the gold watch of F[lora]. He reproved her for her evil treatment. On their return home she abused him much and also when he got home. He had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse but finally succeeded.”

What are Harsh Measures in this context that could stop “the abuse” by Emma?

This speaks volumes about how Emma might feel in this situation was disregarded. How she isn’t seen as having a right to her hurt and anger.

It addresses the quote from last week where Bednar suggests these women pursued Joseph for a sealing when the reality is that He pursued them.

It also runs counter to Bednar’s imposing these were adoptions and not marriages and certainly not sexual. (Gold watch, Orange Wight, Emma’s being caught off guard) We should spend a few minutes sorting this out)

This instance demonstrates the brethren are either naive and ignorant and speak out of turn on such things or they intentionally play on the naivete and ignorance of members or a combination of both.

Oh and what happened to the watch you ask – Seymour B. Young recalled in 1912 that Emma destroyed the watch: “The name of the Prophet’s plural wives [included] … Flora Woodward [sic] to whom he is said to have given a gold locket or watch which was stamped under foot by Emma.” – Seymour B. Young, Journal, April 2, 1912, CHL, restricted; excerpt copied in D. Michael Quinn Papers—Addition—Uncat WA MS 244 (Accession:19990209–c), Box 1—Card file—Topic: Polygamy, Joseph Smith’s

Or is that what happened? – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLLtMuXtEPI
Time Stamp 1.18.30 for a story about Joseph’s Gold Watch.

H.) Coincidence or Women scorned

Flora apparently had a serious life event the very next day after the confrontation. The marriage index of Hancock County records Flora Ann marrying Carlos Gove, a non-member, the very next day after her confrontation with Emma. – Marriage of Flora Woodworth to Carlos Gove, August 23, 1843, in Marriage index of Hancock County, Ill., 1829–1849, Tri-County Genealogical Society, comp. (Augusta, Ilinois: Tri-County Genealogical Society, 1983), 19.

Helen Mar Kimball recalled a different chain of events: “A young man boarding at her father’s after the death of Joseph not a member of the Church had sought her hand, in time won her heart, and in a reckless moment she was induced to accept his offer and they eloped to Carthage, accompanied by a young lady friend, and were there married by a Justice of the Peace.” Helen Mar Whitney, “Travels Beyond the Mississippi,” Woman’s Exponent (November 1, 1884), 87; italics mine. This marriage is not listed in Lyndon Cook, Nauvoo Deaths and Marriages, 1839–1845 (Orem, Utah: Grandin Book Co., 1994), undoubtedly because his marriage records are extracted from Church publications and records.

According to Hales – “The level of friendship between Gove and Flora prior to their legal marriage is unknown, but it is probable that Emma encouraged the nuptial” – and his evidence for that is “Emily Partridge recalled that Emma: “once proposed to a young man to ask Eliza [Partridge, Emily’s sister] to take a ride with him.” Emily Dow Partridge Young, “Incidents in the early life of Emily Dow partridge,” MS d 2845, fd 1, typescript in possession of the author.”

I.) And as I was digging into this story…… I found a couple more things

Land Deed between Lucien Woodworth and Joseph Smith

Mention the transfer of money into the hand of Joseph Smith of $250

Note that I am not saying there is anything odd about this Land deed

But It is odd when juxtaposed against this Land Deed directly to Flora Ann Woodworth

The Land Deed itself between Joseph and Flora

Notice the date of May 13th 1843 is just two months after the “march 4th” possible sealing date between Flora and Joseph

Notice it appears to be part of the same lot

Notice the amount of $1000

Which 16 year old girl has $1000

Did actual money change hands or was Flora given land valued at $1000 as a inheritance for her marriage?

My hunch is nothing was paid but the wording is a formality for a gift.

Other Land Deals

Land Deed to Sarah Ann Whitney – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-sarah-ann-whitney-6-september-1842/1
But then, of course, there was Sarah herself. Only seventeen years old at the time, and by all accounts well liked by her peers, this was an event that would change the course for her whole life. Even while she was initiated into the Mormon church’s inner circle, and linked forever to the faith’s prophet, she must have known that she risked alienation from everyday life. Could she survive as the secret wife of an already much-married man? There had to be compensation. Six weeks after the secret sealing, and two weeks after Smith’s request for a clandestine meeting, Smith deeded to Sarah a lot of land only one block from his own. It was rare for a woman to own land in Nauvoo, especially a woman as young as Sarah; indeed, it was so rare that whoever filled out the deed had to strike out “his” and write in “hers” to match the inheritor’s gender.

FOOTNOTE 1 – While the land deed states that the property cost one thousand dollars, a figure slightly higher than most plots sold that year, it is very unlikely that Sarah herself paid that amount. It is possible that Sarah’s parents provided the money, or that Smith merely covered it himself but desired not to leave a paper” trail.https://benjaminepark.com/2017/10/16/sarah-ann-whitney-blessing/

Joseph Kingsbury (sham) marriage to Sarah Ann Whitney

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/marriage-certificate-for-joseph-kingsbury-and-sarah-ann-whitney-29-april-1843/1

Emma Smith Land Deed – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-emma-smith-and-others-12-july-1843/1

$10,000

Patty Bartlett Sessions – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-patty-bartlett-sessions-9-august-1843/1

Mary Elizabeth Rollings Lightner – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-mary-elizabeth-rollins-lightner-5-july-1843/1

Helen Mar Kimball – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-helen-mar-kimball-7-june-1843/1

Sylvia Sessions Lyon – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-sylvia-sessions-lyon-5-june-1843/1

Sarah Scott Mulholland – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-sarah-scott-mulholland-13-may-1843/1

Four years later [1843], Sarah is thought to have married Joseph Smith in a union concealed by her October 25, 1843, civil marriage to Alexander Mullinder –a ceremony performed by Apostle John Taylor. On February 3, 1846, Sarah was sealed to Mulholland, Heber C. Kimball acting as proxy for her deceased first husband. There are two reasons for concluding that Sarah was joined to Joseph for time and eternity. First, in her 1846 sealing ceremony, she was identified as Sarah Smith, indicating a prior marriage to Joseph. [NO FOOTNOTE OR REFERENCE.] Second, in a biography of Heber Kimball, family tradition lists her among “the wives of the prophet” whom Kimball adopted as his own, 1844-46 – George D. Smith, Nauvoo Polygamy: “… but we called it celestial marriage”, Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2008, 218.

Sarah Scott, who had married James Mulholland (1810–39) in early1839, wed Alexander Mullinder/Mullander (born ca. 1810) civilly on October 25, 1843, with Apostle John Taylor performing the ceremony. Mulholland was probably a “front” husband to conceal Sarah’s plural marriage to Smith—much the same arrangement by whichSmith had authorized Joseph Kingsbury and Sarah Whitney’s “prete[n]ded marriage” on April 29, 1843. Scott was sealed to Mulholland for eternity and to Heber Kimball, not Mullinder, for time on February 3, 1846, in the Nauvoo Temple. The record of that ceremony identifies her explicitly as “Sarah Smith,” implying an earlier sealing to Joseph Smith – Gary J. Bergera, “Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought38, no. 2 (Fall 2005): 31

Elizabeth Buchannan Coolidge (Plural Wife)- https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-elizabeth-buchannan-coolidge-30-march-1843/1

Elizabeth Davis Durfee – (Brian Hales) https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-elizabeth-davis-durfee-10-march-1843/1

Partridge Sisters – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-eliza-partridge-and-others-10-february-1843/1

Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-marinda-nancy-johnson-hyde-10-february-1843/1

Hyrum Smith’s Plural Wives

Lydia Dibble Granger – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-lydia-dibble-granger-15-march-1843/1

Mary Fielding Smith – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-mary-fielding-smith-15-march-1843/1

J.) Other Interesting facts

Flora’s marriage/sealing to Joseph happened right around the same time to Lucy Walker and Helen Mar Kimball

Speak again to Bednar’s imposition on JS’s Polygamy

Joseph Smith, May 1844: “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.”

JOSEPH SMITH’S WIVES as of May 1844: Emma Hale, Louisa Beaman, Mrs. Zina Diantha Huntington (Jacobs), Mrs. Presendia Lathrop Huntington (Buell), Agnes Moulton Coolbrith (Smith), Mrs. Lucinda Pendleton (Morgan Harris), Mrs. Mary Elizabeth Rollins (Lightner), Mrs. Sylvia Porter Sessions (Lyon), Mrs. Patty Bartlett (Sessions), Mrs. Sarah M. Kingsley (Howe Cleveland), Mrs. Elizabeth Davis (G. Brackenbury Durfee), Mrs. Marinda Nancy Johnson (Hyde), Delcena Diadamia Johnson (Sherman), Eliza Roxcy Snow, Mrs. Sarah Rapson (Poulterer), Sarah Ann Whitney, Martha McBride (Knight), Mrs. Ruth Daggett Vose (Sayers), Flora Ann Woodworth, Emily Dow Partridge, Eliza Maria Partridge, Almera Woodward Johnson, Lucy Walker, Sarah Lawrence, Maria Lawrence, Helen Mar Kimball, Mrs. Elvira Anna Cowles (Holmes), Rhoda Richards, Hannah S. Ells, Mary Ann Frost (Stearns Pratt), Olive Grey Frost, Nancy Maria Winchester, Desdemona Catlin Wadworth Fullmer, Melissa Lott, Sarah Scott (Mulholland), Mrs. Phebe Watrous (Woodworth), Mary Huston, Fanny Young (Carr Murray). (George D. Smith, Nauvoo Polygamy [2008]).

Here are the wives of Joseph Smith who were under the age of 20: Fanny Alger (16); Sarah Ann Whitney (17); Flora Ann Woodworth (16); Lucy Walker (17); Sara Lawrence (17): Helen Mar Kimball (14); Nancy Winchester (14)

K.) Sad Ending

1850 Census record of Flora – middle of the page

That same year Flora was staying in Kanesville Iowa

Never making it to Utah, Flora passed away in Kanesville, Iowa around 1850. Helen Mar wrote, “I never saw her again as she died at that place, leaving two or three children.” Flora would have been in her mid-twenties at the time.

RESOURCES:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-flora-ann-woodworth-13-may-1843/1

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-flora-ann-woodworth-13-may-1843/2

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,58572

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2muz15/some_of_my_issues_with_the_nauvoo_polygamy_essay/

https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/flora-ann-woodworth/

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/person/flora-ann-woodworth-gove

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/19-FloraAnnWoodworth.htm

https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/flora-ann-woodworth-24-1g3l7rw

https://josephsmithfoundation.org/flora-ann-woodworth/

https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/flora-ann-woodworth/

https://s3.amazonaws.com/researchties-uploads-553de69e5551e9.40089907/18/32385-LR%203102%2027_f0004_00014.JPG

http://nauvoo.byu.edu/ViewExtract.aspx?Record=1850Pop&ID=15928

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/jsplural.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqcPHvVKaiU

https://www.mormonmugs.shop/collections/flora-ann-woodworth-collection

https://www.mixcloud.com/josephsmithspolygamy/bio-13-flora-ann-woodworth/

https://shemwellfamily.com/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I26226&ged=Shemwell

https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/flora-ann-woodworth/

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/80764619/flora-ann-gove

https://www.ldscleardoctrine.com/Doctrine-and-Covenants/Joseph-Smiths-Personal-Practice-of-Plural-Marriage.php

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Historical_Record/Is1LAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA224&printsec=frontcover

http://www.withoutend.org/emmas-awareness-response-brian-hales-jmh-letter-editor/

This list the plural marriages around the same time (should be an interesting read)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/person/lucien-woodworth (Father)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/deed-to-lucien-woodworth-and-others-31-may-1843/1 (Deed to parents)

May 1, 1843 Nauvoo, Illinois Joseph Smith paid Lucien Woodworth, general contractor, monies toward the building of the Nauvoo House. Sources: History of the Church,(link is external) Joseph Smith, 5:366, 372

March 31, 1843 ~ Friday On the 31 friday I spent the afternoon at Mr Lucian Woodworth’s in company with Joseph Smith, Hiram Smith, Heber C. Kimball Orson Hyde, a Br Chase with our wives we had a feast of a fat turkey & had a good time

http://www.joylogan.com/LDS/Parallel/1843/21Feb43.html

Some book on Clayton’s recording plural marriage
https://doctrineandcovenantscentral.org/history/orange-l-wight/
https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1978-B39-The-Feuding-Gunsmiths-Of-Denver.pdf

https://mdpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2022/10/1843-Land-Plot.png

https://benjaminepark.com/2017/10/16/sarah-ann-whitney-blessing/

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/the-papers/documents

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**Mormon Discussion: 376: Utilizing the Jehovah’s Witnesses to Understand Mormonism** Oct 18, 2022
I can think of no better way to help believing and post Mormons best understand their religion than through the lens of another High Demand Fundamentalist religion. So here it is the Jehovah’s Witnesses

The post Mormon Discussion: 376: Utilizing the Jehovah’s Witnesses to Understand Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 375: Plagiarism In Joseph Smith’s Mormonism** Oct 13, 2022
Critics accuse the Prophets Joseph Smith of plagiarizing multiple sources in order to create the standard works and Mormon Theology. Today we take a deep look into these accusations to see if there is any merit to their claims. You won’t want to miss this. Below is the outline for the video podcast that covers in depth Joseph Smith’s Plagiarism of outside sources in order to create the standard works and Mormon Theology. This is best viewed by watching Mormon Discussion: 375: Plagiarism In Joseph Smith’s Mormonism on YouTube https://youtu.be/AJTxk9W2fxQ You would really benefit by the powerpoint due to me explaining and show great graphics that illustrate the points

A.) Books with Deep Similarities

Late War

http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

Prevalent in J.S.’s day

Book was prevalent and was appears to be the most widely read book on the war of 1812 and was written in KJV English to be used in schools

Cureloms as Mammoths? Orson Pratt said that a “curelom” was a “mammoth”:

“Now to prepare them against these contingencies, and that they might, have fresh air for the benefit of the elephants, cureloms or mammoths and many other animals, that perhaps were in them, as well as the human beings they contained, the Lord told them how to construct them in order to receive air, that when they were on the top of the water, whichever side up their vessels happened to be, it mattered not; they were so constructed that they could ride safely, though bottom upwards and they could open their air holes that happened to be uppermost” (Orson Pratt, JoD 12:340).

Chiasmus Slides

Scroll some of the url.

Manuscript Found

Show Slide with common themes

View of the Hebrews

Show Slide with common themes

First Book of Napoleon

Chris Johnson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI

The Closest book in terms of word usage to the Book of Mormon when excluding other works authored by Joseph Smith is the First Book of Napoleon

Show Chris Johnson Slide of all the books correspondences

Conclude that this is the Weakest of what we will be sharing with you today

B.) Joseph Smith Sr’s Vision Vs Lehi and Nephi’s Tree of Life

Show Slide of Vision Comparison

C.) 1769 KJV Bible Errors Copied Over

The errors themselves are problematic because it shows that Joseph Smith absolutely was working with the KJV bible directly. (Which none of his scribes mentioned.

The scribes for the Inspired Bible Translation also don’t mention Smith’s source of Adam Clarke’s Commentary

This leads us to make room that there may have been several books that Smith worked with in spite of scribes not mentioning such

Wrestle with the idea that on one hand God is perfectly okay with the most correct book on Earth being permitted to have significant errors copied over (to save time?) while on the other hand Joseph is asked by God to redo the bible with his inspired Bible Translation because the bible was corrupted and said errors needed to be fixed (Significant amount of time spent)

Show the two Slides

Show how the Church frames such – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1972/12/joseph-smiths-inspired-translation-of-the-bible?lang=eng

D.) 2nd & 3rd Isaiah

The first Isaiah chapters are believed by scholars to be from 1-39, while the Deutero-Isaiah (or second Isaiah) cover chapters 40-55, and Trito-Isaiah (or third Isaiah) cover 56-66. Scholars believe, for reasons we will outline below, that the historical (first) Isaiah lived in the 8th and 7th century BCE while the Deutero-Isaiah material would not be written until after the exile into Babylon, which was 586 BCE. Because the brass plates were taken from Laban at 600 BCE, this is problematic as the Book of Mormon cites extensively from the Deutero-Isaiah chapters, which were not composed until after the brass plates were taken from Laban. – LDS Discussions
A good example is the presumption that Jerusalem has already been destroyed.

Lehi cites the Deutero-Isaiah material in 2 Nephi 1:13-14,23, and then Jacob reads the words of Deutero-Isaiah into the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi chapter 8. Not only does this Deutero-Isaiah material appear in the Book of Mormon, but it contains the exact King James Bible language that, as we have discussed in previous sections, includes mistranslations, italicized text, and, especially in this case, late additions. – LDS Discussions

Furthermore, the themes that come out of this Deutero-Isaiah influence the Book of Mormon beyond just the words of Lehi and Jacob. The following verses from 2 Nephi (8:24-25) are copied from the King James version of Isaiah 52 (52:1-2), which is identified in the Deutero-Isaiah chapters: 24 Awake, awake, put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. 25 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, sit down, O Jerusalem; loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. This material is not limited to just 2 Nephi either, as much of Isaiah chapter 52 is spoken by Jesus Christ in 3 Nephi as well as Isaiah 52:24 being cited in Moroni 10:31. If this material was not composed prior to Lehi leaving, it presents another instance where the author of the Book of Mormon is using material that anachronistic to the Book of Mormon narrative, which dates the Book of Mormon not as an ancient text, but a 19th century book written by someone with access to the King James Bible. – LDS Discussions

These chapters could not historically be incorporated in the Book of Mormon since they could not have been on the plates that Lehi left with, which puts the inclusion of this material as a very problematic anachronism. Just as with the Book of Abraham issues, Joseph Smith did not have the foresight that in the years following his death we would have a much better understanding of biblical history, and did not realize he was including a late addition throughout the Book of Mormon.

Dr. David Bockovoy – “One of the most insightful perspectives held by mainstream biblical scholars involves the historical development of the book of Isaiah. Since the 20th century, all mainstream scholars have held the position that chapters 40-66 were written after the Jewish exile into Babylon (c.a. 586 BCE). Scholars typically identify the exilic material in 40-55 by the title Deutero-Isaiah, and the post-exilic material in 56-66 by the title Trito-Isaiah (though these works may have been written by multiple authors). This means, of course, that the second half of the book of Isaiah was not written by the historical Isaiah, a prophet who lived in Jerusalem during the eighth century BCE. For Latter-day Saints, this presents a direct challenge for traditionally held paradigms concerning the Book of Mormon, since some of this material is not only attributed to Isaiah, it has had a significant impact upon the Book of Mormon. If mainstream scholars are correct then this material would not have been available to Lehi’s family as something they could have taken with them to America.”

E.) Joseph Smith Inspired Bible Translation

BYU acknowledges research that imposes Joseph Smith plagiarized Adam Clark’s Commentary

The BYU report reads: “recently, in conducting new research into the origins of Smith’s Bible translation, we uncovered evidence that Smith and his associates used a readily available Bible commentary while compiling a new Bible translation, or more properly a revision of the King James Bible. The commentary, Adam Clarke’s famous Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, was a mainstay for Methodist theologians and biblical scholars alike, and was one of the most widely available commentaries in the mid-1820s and 1830s in America.” and “Our research has revealed that the number of direct parallels between Smith’s translation and Adam Clarke’s biblical commentary are simply too numerous and explicit to posit happenstance or coincidental overlap.”

F.) Mormon Temple Endowment plagiarized from Masonry

Show 2 slides and briefly mention (shoot down Solomen’s Temple Apologetics)

Also explain that no informed apologist today denies this.

G.) Romans and Second Nephi

2nd Nephi 9:39 vs Romans 8:6

H.) Paul and Moroni Example 1

1 Corinthians 12:5-11 vs Moroni 10:8-14,16,17

I.) Paul and Moroni Example 2

1st Corinthians 13:4-7 vs Moroni 7:45

J.) Mark 16:17-18 vs Mormon 9:24

Most Biblical Scholars deeply believe the original manuscript for Mark ended at verse 8

There are effectively just two Greek manuscripts that lack Mark 16:9–20. These are codices Sinaiticus (ℵ01) and Vaticanus (B03), two important manuscripts from the fourth century. It’s almost unimaginable that the copyists who made them were unaware of Mark 16:9–20, but at the end of the day, they left it out of their Bibles. Once we look beyond the question of ℵ01 and B03 against the other 1,600-plus Greek manuscripts of Mark, the picture becomes more complicated. At least 23 Greek manuscripts that include Mark 16:9–20 also have anomalies like extra endings or notes that express doubts concerning the authenticity of these verses.

“[T]he accurate ones of the copies define the end of the history according to Mark [at 16:8] . . . in this way the ending of the Gospel according to Mark is defined in nearly all the copies.” – Eusebius (c. AD 265–339)

Can you sense why this might be problematic? First Mark is writing his gospel decades late (Most scholars believe Mark was written 70CE and was not a first hand witness to Jesus ministry

K.) Alma the Younger vs Paul (Their Conversion)

L.) Emanuel Swedenborg

Emanuel Swedenborg’s teachings, discussed later in more detail, are startlingly recognizable to the student of LDS theology.

he taught that there are three heavens

the celestial being the most inward and refined.

There are three levels within the celestial glory

marriage for all eternity is an absolute requirement for entry into the highest of these heavens.

He witnessed a marriage in heaven and stated that the husband was arrayed in the priesthood robes of Aaron and the wife wore apparel suggestive of a queen with a crown on her head.

The world of spirits is a place of preparation for either heaven or perdition

There are angels who communicate between heavens

Likens the celestial, spiritual (terrestrial?), and natural (telestial?) heaven to the sun, moon, and stars

The church Christ established has passed from the earth (Apostasy)

The Lord will establish a New Church on the earth once more

Little children who die, Christian or not, go directly to heaven

Since God creates man in free will, God does not send man to heaven or perdition. Man makes this choice himself.

“opposition in all things”

Man is not saved by faith alone but must show works from a changed heart

Swedenborg echoes concepts found in the LDS sacrament prayer

One way to qualify for perdition is to know the truth and deny it

Celestial beings incorporate the law of consecration into their lives

The creation and the garden of Eden stories are allegories to our spiritual progress

God is man

M.) Word of Wisdom

1806.”MEANS OF PRESERVING HEALTH, AND PREVENTING DISEASES”, Dr. Shadrach Ricketson, Printed by Collins, Perkins, and Co, New York, 1806

quotes several well-known physicians of the time – Percival, J. Fothergill, Leake, Willich, Cullen and Rush.

N.) Book of Moses vs Mathew and Luke

Moses 1 is dependent on the structure and content of Matt. 4 in its construction of the temptation of Moses, transforming Moses into a messianic figure in the same way the author of Matthew transforms Jesus into a new Moses. The connections between Moses 1 and Matt. 4 can be summarized with the following:

Moses 1:1=Matt. 4:8 (“up into an exceeding high mountain”);

Moses 1:12=Matt. 4:9; 15:9; Mark 7:7; Luke 4:7 (satan says “worship me”);

Moses 1:15=Matt. 4:9; Luke 4:7 (“Worship God for him only shalt thou serve”);

Moses 1:17=Matt. 4:9 (“and worship me”);

Moses 1:18=Matt. 4:9 (“Depart hence, Satan”);

Moses 1:19=Matt. 4:9 (“worship me”);

Moses 1:20=Matt. 4:10 (“Depart hence, Satan”);

Moses 1:21=Matt. 4:10 (“Depart hence, Satan”). The rest of the chapter is sprinkled with language that is shared among the gospels, some that is unique to the gospel of John, and language from the rest of the NT and OT.

Conclusion

I agree with Richard Bushman a renowned scholar, former stake president, Patriarch, and author of Rough Stone Rolling

Joseph Smith’s Mormonism is full of 19th century material

And his translation productions are pseudepigrapha

**RESOURCES:**
http://bookofmormonplagiarism.com/

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/was-mark-16-9-20-originally-mark-gospel/

https://gatheredin.one/2112/emanuel-swedenborg-and-mormonism/

http://www.withoutend.org/source-criticism-books-moses-abraham/

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Late_War

http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

http://www.bahaistudies.net/asma/manuscript_found.pdf

https://archive.org/details/viewofhebrewsexh00smitrich/page/8/mode/2up?ref=ol&view=theater

https://ia800902.us.archive.org/35/items/firstbooknapole00gruagoog/firstbooknapole00gruagoog.pdf

https://youtu.be/GAGasQ7j_ZI?t=42

http://bookofmormonplagiarism.com/assets/files/LehisDream.pdf

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1972/12/joseph-smiths-inspired-translation-of-the-bible?lang=eng

https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/deuteroisaiah

http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296

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**Mormonism LIVE: 097: A Chat w/ Elder Bednar Part 2** Oct 13, 2022
A listener was able to have a candid chat with Elder Bednar recently and agreed to share with us how it went! This is part 2 of that conversation. Join us live!

The post Mormonism LIVE: 097: A Chat w/ Elder Bednar Part 2 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 096: Mormonism & Masonry** Oct 06, 2022
RFM and Bill Reel will sit down with author Cheryl Bruno to discuss her book “Method Infinite: Freemasonry and the Mormon Restoration”.
Synopsis of her book – “While no one thing can entirely explain the rise of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the historical influence of Freemasonry on this religious tradition cannot be refuted. Those who study Mormonism have been aware of the impact that Freemasonry had on the founding prophet Joseph Smith during the Nauvoo period, but his involvement in Freemasonry was arguably earlier and broader than many modern historians have admitted. The fact that the most obvious vestiges of Freemasonry are evident only in the more esoteric aspects of the Mormon faith has made it difficult to recognize, let alone fully grasp, the relevant issues. Even those with both Mormon and Masonic experience may not be versed in the nineteenth-century versions of Masonry’s rituals, legends, and practices. Without this specialized background, it is easy to miss the Masonic significance of numerous early Mormon ordinances, scripture, and doctrines. Method Infinite: Freemasonry and the Mormon Restoration offers a fresh perspective on the Masonic thread present in Mormonism from its earliest days. Smith’s firsthand knowledge of and experience with both Masonry and anti-Masonic currents contributed to the theology, structure, culture, tradition, history, literature, and ritual of the religion he founded.”
**Resources:**
Cheryl’s Book – https://www.amazon.com/Method-Infinite-Freemasonry-Mormon-Restoration/dp/1589587537
http://www.skirret.com/archive/misc/misc-m/mormonsmasonryandthemorganaffair.html
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2022/04/mormon-discussion-363-lds-temple-signs-tokens-penalties/
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/04/greg-kearney-mormonism-masonry/
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/masonry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Freemasonry

https://www.mrm.org/masonry-and-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony

The post Mormonism LIVE: 096: Mormonism & Masonry appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Join Our Team & Help Us Support Those Navigating a Faith and Belief Transition** Oct 04, 2022
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The post Join Our Team & Help Us Support Those Navigating a Faith and Belief Transition appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 095: A Chat w/Elder Bednar** Oct 01, 2022
A listener was able to have a candid chat with Elder Bednar recently and agreed to share with us how it went! Join us live!

The post Mormonism LIVE: 095: A Chat w/Elder Bednar appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 094: Joseph Smith & The Occult** Oct 01, 2022
Dan Vogel joins RFM to discuss the Occult in the Life of Joseph Smith and his family.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 094: Joseph Smith & The Occult appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 093: The Tar and Feathering of Joseph Smith** Sep 15, 2022
In Mormon parlance, the Tar and Feathering of Joseph Smith is a faith promoting story about a mob of mean men punishing Joseph Smith for being a prophet. But it doesn’t take one long when their ears are to the ground in non-correlated circles to hear rumblings that the tar and feathering is connected to something more devious on Joseph Smith’s end. In this episode Bill & RFM explore the story of Joseph Smith’s being tarred and feathered to see what info there is that can best explain this mob mentality in the wee hours of the morning of March 25, 1832.

A.) Setup of the story with the context of how Joseph Smith was in Hiram Ohio and what other historical context is needed to help people grasp this moment historically (Leaving out the possible scandalous context)

In 1818, John and Alice (known as Elsa) Johnson came to Hiram, Ohio, about 31 miles southeast of Kirtland. The family lived in several log cabins while they built a home directly across the road. The Johnsons had 15 children; 9 lived to adulthood: Alice, Fanny, John Jr., Luke, Olmstead, Lyman, Emily, Marinda, and Justin.

Sidney Rigdon became a pastor in Mentor Ohio(adjacent & NE of Kirtland). He became converted to Mormonism via Parley Pratt’s mission whom he knew, while Smith lived in NY. After Sidney Rigdon baptized John and Elsa’s 19-year-old son, Lyman, in February 1831, the couple read the Book of Mormon and believed. By May, all members of the Johnson family were baptized except Olmstead, who had moved to Mexico.

Later that year, the Prophet, seeking a peaceful, secluded place in which to continue his work of translating the Bible, accepted an invitation from the Johnsons to live in their home. Joseph and Emma came on 12 September 1831 with their four-month-old adopted twins, Joseph and Julia. Converts Sidney and Phebe Rigdon settled with their six young children across the road in a log cabin.

Elsa Johnson the wife of John Johnson, who had suffered from chronic rheumatism in her arm for years, asked John to take her to Kirtland so the Prophet Joseph Smith could heal her. When the Prophet blessed her, she was completely healed. (Even some quakers make mention of this healing)

Some of the following is overlap but it also contains additional facts

After returning to Ohio from Missouri in late August 1831, JS made preparations to move his family from Kirtland to Hiram, Ohio, where he planned to resume his “translation,” or revision, of the Bible—a project he had been working on since 1830. The move occurred on 12 September 1831, following a conference held in Kirtland that same day.1 In Hiram, JS and his family stayed at the John and Alice (Elsa) Jacobs Johnson home, sleeping probably in a back room on the main level. In the end of October, the Johnsons partitioned an upstairs room, creating a work space for JS in the southeast portion of the house, where he worked on the Bible revision.2 Beginning in September, John Whitmer served as scribe for this project, working on the books of Matthew and Mark, until Sidney Rigdon assumed this responsibility in November.3 Periodically, JS traveled to Kirtland or other townships in northeastern Ohio to conduct church business,4 but he spent most of the fall in Hiram.

B.) How the mob mentality was built up and tensions arose

In the early 1831, Ezra Booth and Symonds Ryder, both ministers joined Mormonism. Booth and Ryder became strong supporters of Smith and Rigdon. While Booth was on a church mission to Jackson County, Missouri, he witnessed a dispute between Edward Partridge, Bishop of the Mormon Church in Jackson County, and Joseph Smith. Booth became disillusioned with Mormonism and returned to Ohio to report what he had seen in Missouri. Symonds Ryder also became disaffected for mulitple reasons though one of those is that after Joseph alleged a revelation calling Ryder to serve a mission. Smith and Rigdon both signed the official call but misspelled Ryder’s name. Ryder thought a real revelation from God would never do such a thing.(Didn’t he read the Book of Mormon) When Booth and Ryder met in the fall of 1831, they shared their experiences and concluded that they had been deceived. They both left Mormonism and returned to their former faiths. Both men became strong critics of Mormonism in Ohio, focusing on Smith and Rigdon. Booth, at the encouragement of a Reverend Ira Eddy, wrote nine letters to the Ohio Star newspaper published between October and December, 1831. The letters criticized Mormon doctrines and Smith’s and Rigdon’s character and accused the Mormon leaders of a scheme to get control of their followers’ property (D&C 51 United Order/Law of Consecration). These letters were widely circulated and generated fierce local opposition to the Mormons. By December of 31, Smith and Rigdon temporarily paused their revision of the bible to start rebutting the accusations by Booth and Ryder. Rigdon had his own letters published to the Ohio Star pushing back against Booth and Ryder to discuss their charges in public. In one article, Rigdon purposefully misspelled Ryder’s name apparently to irritate him. Tensions increased on both sides.(The letters are reprinted in their entirety in Eber Howe, Mormonism Unvailed (Painesville: E.D. Howe, 1834).also (Ohio Star, Plainesville, Ohio, 12 January 1832)

A short time before the tar and feathering attack a hole was bored in the door of the house where Rigdon was staying and filled with black powder in an attempt to kill Rigdon. (Short Portage County Democrat, Ravenna, Ohio 15 February 1860)

Mob consisted of 10 to 11 men minimum and as many as 25-30 based on eyewitness accounts and second hand sources

C.) The event as described by Joseph Smith (Where Joseph abbreviates the mob’s language we have inserted the actual swearing)

Joseph’s telling reiterated in Lucy Mack Smith’s History and published originally in the Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 611. Millennial Star, vol. 14, p. 148. –

“On the twenty-fourth of March [1832], the twins before mentioned, which had been sick of the measles for some time, caused us to be broken of our rest in taking care of them, especially my wife. In the evening I told her she had better retire to rest with one of the children, and I would watch with the sicker child (Murdock Boy).[iv] In the night she told me I had better lie down on the trundle bed, and I did so, and was soon after awakened by her screaming murder! when I found myself going out of the door in the hands of about a dozen men; some of whose hands were in my hair, and some had hold of my shirt, drawers, and limbs. The foot of the trundle bed was towards the door, leaving only room enough for the door to swing. “My wife heard a gentle tapping on the windows, which she then took no particular notice of (but which was unquestionably designed for ascertaining whether we were all asleep), and, soon after, the mob burst open the door and surrounded the bed in an instant,[v] and, as I said, the first I knew I was going out of the door in the hands of an infuriated mob. I made a desperate struggle, as I was forced out, to extricate myself, but only cleared one leg with which I made a pass at one man and he fell on the door steps.[vi] I was immediately confined again, and they swore by God, they would kill me if I did not be still, which quieted me. As they passed around the house with me, the fellow that I kicked came to me and thrust his hand into my face all covered with blood (for I hit him on the nose), and with an exultant horse laugh, muttered, ‘God, God, God damn ye, I’ll fix ye.’ “They then seized me by the throat and held on till I lost my breath. After I came to, as they passed along with me, about thirty rods from the house,[vii] I saw Elder Rigdon stretched out on the ground, whither they had dragged him by the heels. I supposed he was dead. “I began to plead with them, saying, ‘you will have mercy and spare my life, I hope.’ To which they replied, ‘God damn ye, call on yer God for help, we’ll show ye no mercy’; and the people began to show themselves in every direction; one coming from the orchard had a plank and I expected they would kill me and carry me off on a plank.[viii] They then turned to the right and went on about thirty rods farther-about sixty rods from the house[ix] and about thirty from where I saw Elder Rigdon-into the meadow, where they stopped, and one said, ‘Simonds, Simonds,’ (meaning, I supposed, Simonds Rider), ‘pull up his drawers, pull up his drawers, he will take cold.’ “Another replied, ‘Ain’t ye going to kill ‘im? Ain’t ye going to kill ‘im?’ when a group of mobbers collected a little way off and said, ‘Simonds, Simonds, come here’; and Simonds charged those who had hold of me to keep me from touching the ground (as they had done all the time), lest I should get a spring upon them. They went and held a council, and as I could occasionally overhear a word, I supposed it was to know whether it was best to kill me. “They returned, after a while, when I learned that they had concluded not to kill me, but pound and scratch me well, tear off my shirt and drawers, and leave me naked. One cried, ‘Simonds, Simonds, where is the tar bucket?’ “‘I don’t know,’ answered one, ‘where ’tis, Eli’s left it.’ They ran back and fetched the bucket of tar, when one exclaimed, with an oath, ‘Let us tar up his mouth’; and they tried to force the tar paddle into my mouth; I twisted my head around so that they could not, and they cried out, ‘God damn ye, hold up yer head and let us giv ye some tar.’ They then tried to force a vial into my mouth and broke it in my teeth.[x] All my clothes were torn off me, except my shirt collar; and one man fell on me and scratched my body with his nails like a mad cat, and then muttered out, ‘God damn ye, that’s the way the Holy Ghost falls on folks.’ “They then left me, and I attempted to rise, but fell again; I pulled the tar away from my lips, etc., so that I could breathe more freely, and after a while I began to recover and raised myself up, when I saw two lights. I made my way towards one of them and found it was Father Johnson’s. When I had come to the door I was naked, and the tar made me look as though I was covered with blood; and when my wife saw me, she thought I was all mashed to pieces and fainted. During the affray abroad, the sisters of the neighborhood had collected at my room. I called for a blanket, they threw me one and shut the door; I wrapped it around me, and went in. “In the meantime, Brother John Poorman heard an outcry across the cornfield, and running that way met Father Johnson, who had been fastened in his house at the commencement of the assault, by having his door barred by the mob, but on calling to his wife to bring his gun, saying he would blow a hole through the door, the mob fled, and Father Johnson, seizing a club, ran after the party that had Elder Rigdon, and knocked one man, and raised his club to level another, exclaiming: “What are you doing here?”[xi] when they left Elder Rigdon and turned upon Father Johnson, who, turning to run towards his own house, met Brother Poorman coming out of the cornfield; each supposing the other to be a mobber, an encounter ensued, and Poorman gave Johnson a severe blow on the left shoulder with a stick or stone, which brought him to the ground. Poorman ran immediately towards Father Johnson’s, and arriving while I was waiting for the blanket, exclaimed: ‘I’m afraid I’ve killed him.’ ‘Killed who?’ asked one; when Poorman hastily related the circumstances of the encounter near the cornfield, and went into the shed and hid himself. Father Johnson soon recovered so as to come to the house, when the whole mystery was quickly solved concerning the difficulty between him and Poorman, who, on learning the facts, joyfully came from his hiding place.[xii] “My friends spent the night in scraping and removing the tar, and washing and cleansing my body, so that by morning I was ready to be clothed again. This being Sabbath morning, the people assembled for meeting at the usual hour of worship, and among them came also the mobbers, viz., Simonds Rider, a Campbellite preacher and leader of the mob; one McClentic, who had his hands in my hair; one Streeter, son of a Campbellite minister; and Felatiah Allen, Esq., who gave the mob a barrel of whisky to raise their spirits; and many others. With my flesh all scarified and defaced, I preached to the congregation as usual, and in the afternoon of the same day baptized three individuals. “The next morning I went to see Elder Rigdon and found him crazy, and his head highly inflamed, for they had dragged him by his heels, and those, too, so high from the ground that he could not raise his head from the rough, frozen surface, which lacerated it exceedingly; and when he saw me he called to his wife to bring him his razor. She asked him what he wanted of it; and he replied, to kill me. Sister Rigdon left the room, and he asked me to bring his razor. I asked him what he wanted of it, and he replied he wanted to kill his wife; and he continued delirious some days. The feathers which were used with the tar on this occasion, the mob took out of Elder Rigdon’s house. After they had seized him, and dragged him out, one of the banditti returned to get some pillows; when the women shut him in and kept him a prisoner some time. “During the mobbing, one of the twins contracted a severe cold, and continued to grow worse till Friday and died.[xiii] The mobbers were composed of various religious parties, but mostly Campbellites, Methodists and Baptists, who continued to molest and menace Father Johnson’s house for a long time.”

D.) Details of story as suggested by those involved as well as additional researchers after the fact. Some of these came out in the narrative we just read others are added from additional sources.

March 24 1832

Tapping on the window

They were perhaps testing to see who was asleep

Joseph Smith was occupying the room of a house brother Johnson was living in, at the same time; it was a two story building, had steps in front. The mob surrounded the house, the twins being afflicted with measles, Joseph was lying upon a trundle bed with one of them. The mob rushed in, gathered up Joseph while in his bed (apparently separating him from the Murdock boy in doing so), took him out in his night clothes, and carried him out on to the top of the steps.

Joseph got a foot at liberty and kicked one of the men, and knocked him down off the steps, and the print of his head and shoulders were visible on the ground in the morning.

Warren Waste – Warren Waste, who was the strongest man in the western reserve considered himself perfectly able to handle Joseph alone, but when they got hold of him Waste cried out, “do not let him touch the ground, or he will run over the whole of us.” Waste suggested in carrying him to cross his legs, for they said that would make it easier for the Prophet, but that was done in consequence of the severe pain it would give to the small of the back.

Tar and Feathering – Someone brought forward a bucket of hot tar which they then smeared over Joseph’s lacerated body, at the same time trying to force the tar paddle into his mouth. He resisted.

Observer & Telegraph, a local Ohio newspaper –

“TRIUMPHS OF THE MORMON FAITH” — Several verbal statements agree in establishing the following facts.” “That on Saturday night, March 24, a number of persons, some say 25 or 30, disguised with coloured faces, entered the rooms in Hiram, where the two Mormonite leaders, Smith and Rigdon were sleeping, and took them, together with the pillows on which they slept, carried them a short distance and after besmearing their bodies with tar, applied the contents of the pillows to the same.

What sort of harm tar and feathering caused – The notion that hot tar caused severe, sometimes fatal burns is based on the assumption that “tar” meant the asphalt we use on roads, which is typically stored in liquid state at about 300°F (150°C). But in the eighteenth century “tar” meant pine tar, used for several purposes in building and maintaining ships. As any baseball fan knows, pine tar doesn’t have to be very hot to be sticky. Shipyards did warm that tar to make it flow more easily, but pine tar starts to melt at about 140°F (60°C). That’s well above the ideal for bathwater, but far from the temperature of hot asphalt. Pine tar could be hot enough to injure someone. The Loyalist judge Peter Oliver complained that when a mob attacked Dr. Abner Beebe of Connecticut, “hot Pitch was poured upon him, which blistered his Skin.”[i] But other victims of tarring and feathering didn’t mention severe or lasting burns among their injuries. Rioters probably applied the tar with a mop or brush, lowering its temperature. Sometimes they tarred people more gently over their clothing.

Castration – Dr. Dennison had been employed to perform a surgical operation, but he declined when the time came to operate.

Castration was often a punishment for a sexual misdeed but not always.

Poison – He was daubed with tar, feathered and choked, and aquafortis was attempted to be poured into his mouth.

Aqua fortis, in the old chemistry ( now called nitric acid.Webster’s 1828 American Dictionary).

The liquid they poured into his mouth was so powerful, that it killed the grass where some of it had been scattered on the ground.

Joseph Clenched his teeth hard to prevent them from poisoning him and in the process apparently chipped a tooth

Joseph is reported by the mob to have said, be merciful, when they told him to call upon his God for mercy. They immediately, as he began to pray, heard an alarm which made them think they were about to be surprised, and left suddenly. (I looked for the source of this and like many other alleged data points, was unable to locate a source and verify the detail)

Rigdon also assaulted – Sidney Rigdon, who resided near by, had been dragged by the heels out of his bed at the same time, and his body stripped and a coat of tar and feathers applied. The next morning he was crazy, his head greatly inflamed and lacerated.

Some records indicated he was abused after Joseph but the most reliable statements have him being abused first including how Joseph reported the event.

Hiram 1800-1850, Portage County, Ohio Genweb – Sidney Rigden, who furnished the brains for the Mormon movement in its infancy, took up his abode in a log house across the street from the Johnsons.

Others may have been assaulted as well – Hiram 1800-1850, Portage County, Ohio Genweb – In the confusion Miss Vashti Higley (Vastali Higley) was dragged from her bed. The mistake was soon discovered. Miss Higley afterward married Peter Whitmer, one of the original witnesses to the “golden plates” on which the Mormon bible was based.

Joseph after being cleaned up the best that could be done preached a sermon the next morning and 3 people were baptized. Joseph found his way in from the light of the house, the mob having abandoned him. While he was engaged in getting off the tar by the application of grease, soap and other materials,

Philemon Duzette, the father of our celebrated drummer, came there, and seeing the Prophet in this condition, took it as an evidence of the truth of “Mormonism,” and was baptized.

Philemon joined the group of volunteers who followed the Prophet Joseph Smith on the march for Zion’s Camp. They left Ohio 6th of May 1834 and headed towards Missouri to aid the suffering Latter-day Saints there. It was a grueling journey wrought with danger, hunger, and fatigue. Philemon did not return from this march; the family never saw him again. We surmise that he died somewhere along the way.

Murdock twins (Julia and Joseph) – the murdock boy died later proposedly from the exposure to the cold during the tar and feathering event. These circumstances exposed the life of the child, the measles struck in and caused its death, and the whole of this persecution was got up through the influence of those apostates; and it made it necessary to keep up a constant watch lest some violence should be repeated.

Various Books on Mormonism have additional facts/conjecture

According to recorded accounts of the event, the mob broke down the front door, took Smith’s oldest surviving adopted child from his arms,[5 McKiernan, F. Mark (1971), The Voice of One crying in the Wilderness: Sidney Rigdon, Religious Reformer, 1793-1876, Lawrence, KS: Corondao Press, ISBN 978-0-87291-024-9 ]

dragged Smith from the room, leaving his exposed child on a trundle bed and forcing Emma and the others from the house, the mob threatening her with rape and murder.[6 Johnson, Luke (1864), “History of Luke Johnson, by Himself”, The Latter Day Saints’ Millennial Star, 26: 834]

The child was knocked off the bed onto the floor in the doorway of the home as Smith was forcibly removed from his home.[7Joseph Smith: The First Mormon – Donna Hill 1977]

The child died from exposure (many accounts say pneumonia) five days after the event [8Newell, Linda King; Avery, Valeen Tippetts (1984), Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Prophet’s Wife, “Elect Lady,” Polygamy’s Foe, Garden City, NY: Doubleday, ISBN 0-252-02399-4]

from the condition that doctors said he developed the night of the mob violence.[9 Smith, Lucy Mack (1853), Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for Many Generations, Liverpool: S.W. Richards, archived from the original on 2004-04-30 ]

E.) The additional data that is left out of Faith promoting tellings, recognizing some of it may be unsubstantiated.

Injuries and fate of the assailants – Luke Johnson informed us that Warren Waste was afterwards a cripple, rendered so by weakness in the small of the back, and Dr. Dennison died in the Ohio Penitentiary where he was incarcerated for procuring an abortion, which caused death; Luke’s history does not mention the fate of Warren Waste but does say that Carnot Mason “had an attack of the spinal affection” and Dr. Dennison died in prison (does not cite offense). They tore out a patch of his hair by the roots that never grew back. They injured his side in such a way that it pained him the rest of his life and Joseph claimed an out of body near death experience – Joseph would later describe standing above his body and watching as the mob beat him and poured the acid over his face and neck. Then a noise was heard and the mob fled in fear leaving Joseph upon the ground. Slowly, he regained consciousness. He tried to sit up but couldn’t. Unable to breathe, he pulled the tar from his mouth. After a time, he made his way home. Emma stood in the doorway and fainted at the sight of him. Joseph asked for a blanket for cover and went inside by the fire. His friends spent the night peeling and scraping the tar from his body, sometimes taking off layers of skin with it.

Alibi of Symonds Ryder – “At Symonds Ryder’s funeral (in 1870), his son Hartwell Ryder spoke of his father and said all these glowing things. Then he said, ‘On the books of the Mormon Church out in Utah, it says that Symonds Ryder led the tarring and feathering of Joseph Smith,’”

Hartwell, his son, then said, “I well remember that night. My father was extremely ill and spent the night in the outhouse.”

a.) But it appears that perhaps Susan Easton Black was distorting the story. The source found said the following – After the event, if anyone inquired of the whereabouts of any of the mobbers of 24 March, an appropriate alibi was ready. These alibis were even passed to the next generation. For example, according to Ryder’s son, Hartwell, Ryder was not involved in the tarring and feathering of Joseph Smith. Nor did he preach on the following Sunday in the south schoolhouse on Ryder Road and glory that he had been an instrument of the Lord in driving the Mormons out of Hiram. Instead, Hartwell wrote, Ryder was “ill in bed at the time.”

Clark Braden: Marinda Nancy Johnson (Hyde)’s brother “Eli” led the mob against Joseph in Hiram because he had been “too intimate with his sister Marinda (17 – born june 28, 1815), who afterwards married Orson Hyde. Brigham Young, in after years, twitted Hyde with this fact, and hyde, on learning its truth, put away his wife, although they had several children”

Genealogical archives in SLC show that Hyde did in fact take “Nancy” on July 31st 1857 and have her sealed “for eternity” to Joseph Smith. (Sealing? April 1842)

Joseph Smith in the handwriting of Thomas Bullock – Joseph Smith’s journal contains a list of a few of his plural wives written after the July 14, 1843, entry in the handwriting of Thomas Bullock: “Apri 42 marinda Johnson to Joseph Smith.” – Photography of hologram in Richard E. Turley, Jr. Selected Collections from the Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 2002)

Brian Hales: “It is not known whether the statement “let my handmaid Nancy Marinda Hyde hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph in all things whatsoever he shall teach unto her” is a general admonition or a specific reference, perhaps to plural marriage.”

Hales – Generally, a signed affidavit is considered more reliable than an entry in a journal by a scribe from an unknown source, but whether the first date is in error or two sealing ceremonies were performed is unclear.

Brian Hales – “Marinda personally testified concerning a second sealing through a signed affidavit “that on the [blank] day of May A.D. 1843, at the City of Nauvoo, County of Hancock, State of Illinois, She was married or Sealed to Joseph Smith, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, by Brigham Young, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, of Said Church, according to the laws of the same, regulating Marriage; in the presence of Eliza Maria Partridge Lyman, and Emily Dow Partridge Young.”

Brian Hales- “The relationship between Joseph Smith and Marinda Nancy Johnson is difficult to decipher due to a lack of evidence. Todd Compton assessed: “For such an important woman, Marinda is surprisingly under-documented. I know of no holograph by her and have found only four letters to her.” “Marinda left no known reference to the marriage [with Joseph Smith], beyond signing an affidavit attesting that it happened.””

John D Lee – “Hyde’s wife, with his consent, was sealed to Joseph for an eternal state.”

Brian Hales – “If the 1842 date for the sealing between Joseph and Marinda’s marriage is correct, then Joseph may have been sealed to Marinda in an eternity-only sealing without Orson Hyde’s knowledge.”

Marinda, while Orson was on his mission in Jerusalem “had to live in a little log house whose windows had no glass but in place of which were pieces of greased paper…A little cornmeal and a few groceries were all the provisions remaining to sustain her and the little ones.”. Noting Marinda’s living conditions, Joseph Smith received the following revelation dated December 2, 1841: “Verily thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph. that inasmuch as you have called upon me to know my will concerning my handmaid Nancy Marinda Hyde Behold it is my will that she should have a better place prepared for her than that in which she now lives…and let my handmaid Nancy Marinda Hyde hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph in all things whatsoever he shall teach unto her…”

Hales “The details of the relationship between Marinda and the Prophet will probably never be known. If Marinda had chosen Joseph as her eternal husband, she apparently changed her mind because she chose to be sealed to her legal husband Orson Hyde in the Nauvoo temple on January 11, 1846”

Hales – “Marinda Nancy Johnson relocated to Salt Lake City in 1852 and later divorced Orson Hyde and was resealed by proxy to Joseph Smith. She died in 1886, having kept the faith in the Church.”

William Hall – Hall, William, The Abominations of Mormonism Exposed; containing many Facts and Doctrines concerning that singular people during seven years’ membership with them, from 1840 to 1847, Cincinnati: I. hart, 1852, excerpts. – Hall claims that Orson hyde agreed to give Joseph all his money and his wife in order to be permitted back into the Church after his apostasy

Arthur Deming 3rd hand from Rev. Whitney (Newell K Whitney’s Brother – hostile to the church) – He stated that one of the party who tarred and feathered Sydney Rigdon and Jo Smith at John Johnson’s, in Hiram, O., informed him that Rigdon said to their assailants he presumed they were gentlemen, but Jo Smith fought until overpowered. A doctor present offered to castrate Jo and said he would warrant him to live. It was not done. Several of Johnson’s sons were of the party. They were angry because their father was urged by Jo and Rigdon to let them have his property. He finally did give them some of it, and moved to Kirtland and kept tavern, and his son Luke became one of the first Mormon Twelve Apostles.

Marinda Nancy Johnson – “Here I feel like bearing my testimony that during the whole year that Joseph was an inmate of my father’s house I never saw aught in his daily life or conversation to make me doubt his divine mission.”

Van Wagoner perhaps quoting Marvin Hill – That an incident between Smith and Nancy Johnson precipitated the mobbing is unlikely. Sidney Rigdon was attacked just as viciously by the group as was Smith. And the leader of the mob, Simonds Ryder, later said that the attack occurred because members of the mob had found some documents that led them to believe “the horrid fact that a plot was laid to take their property from them and place it under the control of Smith” (Hill 1977, 146).

John Johnson had no son Eli . His only sons were John, Jr., Luke, Olmstead, and Lyman (Newell and Avery 1984, 41).”.

BUT WAIT – Joseph Smith or scribe Willard Richards says in the manuscript history of the church – “I would remark that nothing important had occurred since I came to reside at father Johnson’s house in Hiram; I had held meetings on the sabbaths and evenings and baptized a number. Father Johnsons Son, Olmsted Johnson, about this time [March, 1832] came home on a visit, during which I told him if he did not obey the gospel, the spirit he was of would lead him to destruction, and when he went away, he would never return or see his father again…. In addition to the apostate Ezra Booth, Symonds Rider, Eli Johnson, Edward Johnson and John Johnson jr. had apostatized…. soon after [at the Johnson house on the 24th of March] the mob burst open the door and surrounded the bed in an instant, and, as I said, the first I knew I was going out of the door in the hands of an infuriated mob… I was immediately confined… they swore by God, they would kill me if I did not be still, which quieted me…. one cried, ‘Simonds, Simonds, where’s the tar bucket?’ ‘I don’t know’ answered one, ‘where ’tis, Eli’s left it.’… by morning I was ready to be clothed again. This being Sabbath morning, the people assembled for meeting at the usual hour of worship, and among those came also the mobbers; viz: Simonds Rider, a Campbelite preacher, and leader of the mob; one McClentic, son of a Campbelite preacher, and Pelatiah Allen, Esq. who gave the mob a barrel of whiskey to raise their spirits; and many others.”

Fawn Brodie was in fact incorrect in naming Eli Johnson as Mirinda’s brother. Eli was actually a name of one of her uncles. According to LDS family search.com. Eli was a uncle, brother to Mirinda’s father, John. Son of Israel Johnson wich may have been enough to be motivated by Joseph ‘s sexual advances with his niece not his sister and the fact that he believed that Joseph was also using his position to take the Johnson farm…it should be pointed out that in this Joseph succeeded since John Johnson did in fact give a portion of his property to smith and did eventually marry Mirinda as one of his plural wives.

Luke Johnson – “[W]hile Joseph was yet at my father’s, a mob of forty or fifty came to his house, a few entered his room in the middle of the night, and Carnot Mason dragged Joseph out of bed by the hair of his head; he was then seized by as many as could get hold of him, and taken about forty rods from the house, stretched on a board, and tantalized in the most insulting and brutal manner; they tore off the few night clothes that he had on, for the purpose of emasculating him, and had Dr. Dennison there to perform the operation [castration]; but when the Dr. saw the Prophet stripped and stretched on the plank, his heart failed him, and he refused to operate. The mob … in attempting to force open his jaws, they broke one of his front teeth to pour a vial of some obnoxious drug [aqua-fortis, a poison] into his mouth. The mob [then] became divided [because they] did not succeed, … but [instead had to settle for] poured tar over him, and then stuck feathers in it and left him … [then] part of the mob went to the house that Sidney Rigdon occupied, and dragged him out, and besmeared him with tar and feathers. Persons identified as being part of this attack besides Mason and Dr. Dennison, included Simonds Ryder, Warren Waste, Jacob Scott, a man named Fullar, and Eli Johnson. Many of these men had recently apostatized from the church” “The History of Luke Johnson (By Himself.,),” Deseret News 8 (May 26, 1858)

Strange he would refer to his brother or uncle without mentioning the relationship.

Also is it possible that Eli is short for Lyman aks Ly/Eli? Lyman also has an alibi, he was on an eastern mission for much of 1832. he was with Orson Pratt continuously from Feb 3 to Nov 8

FairMormon- Eli was partially blind, fond of drink, disgruntled, the village tale-bearer, and lived in outhouses (apparently not a big property owner). He is known to have lived his last 50 years in Battleboro, NH (1809-1859), posing further difficulty for him being in Ohio for long and being Clark Braden’s source. He would have been around 50 when Joseph was tarred and feathered and not easily mistaken for Marinda’s brother.

Richard Bushman – The men who attacked Joseph Smith were respectable people who for some reason detested him. https://www.byutv.org/db5b29ab-142f-45fd-bbb6-d49ee6e7c34b/joseph-smith-papers-visions-and-blessings-tar-and-feathers?player-open=true&listid=874e14b6-098f-453a-b472-39c19a18f20e&listindex=25&content-id=db5b29ab-142f-45fd-bbb6-d49ee6e7c34b

F.) Conclusion

While there is some data lending credibility to the claim of sexual misconduct being at least part of the motive of the 24th March 1832 such as the attempted Castration and the later allegations and sealing/marriage of Smith to Marinda Nancy Hyde, this is weak at best and is clouded by the errors created by Fawn Brodie and perpetuated by critics who wish to see misconduct on the part of Mormon Leaders at every turn.

There may have been multiple motives of the mob but it seems the clearest explanation for the events of that night can be best understood by the words of Symonds Ryder himself.

Symonds Ryder later defended his actions against Smith and the Mormons, explaining that the attack was not a manifestation of religious intolerance. In fact, the people of Hiram were “liberal” and “disposed to turn out and hear” the Mormons and other religions. The attacks, Ryder argued, came in response to “the horrid fact that a plot was laid to take their property from them and place it under the control of Joseph Smith the prophet.” Ryder defended his actions and was pleased with the result of the violence. “This had the desired effect, which was to get rid of them. They [the Mormons] soon left for Kirtland.” ( Symonds Ryder, “Letter to A.S. Hayden,” 1 February 1868, in Amos Sutton Hayden, Early History of the Disciples in the Western Reserve (Cincinnati: Chase and Hall, 1875), 220-21)

Hence we (myself included) need to quit perpetuating the story about Eli and his sister Marinda Nancy Hyde and focus on the thousand other legitimate places to raise criticism and expose problematic history.

Possible Concluding Statement – Thesis TARRED AND FEATHERED: MORMONS, MEMORY, AND RITUAL VIOLENCE by John Kimball Alexander

“The motives of the mob are best understood as a public manifestation of the personal feud between Smith and Rigdon, and Ryder and Booth. When Booth and Ryder left Mormonism, they seemed to believe that their attacks against Smith and Rigdon would go unchallenged and result in the fall of Mormonism. One man wrote that Booth gave Mormons “such a coloring, or appearance of falsehood, that the public feeling was, that ‘Mormonism’ was overthrown.”51 Yet Smith and Rigdon launched a campaign against Booth and Ryder that rebuffed their accusations and discredited both men. Particularly Ryder, the likely organizer and leader of the mob, seemed determined to pursue a personal vendetta against Smith and Rigdon. Ryder claimed that the central factor was property, especially the perceived loss of property among Smith’s followers and the corresponding accumulation of property in Smith’s hands. The doctrine of Mormonism that would come to be called the Law of Consecration required members to deed their property to the Church to be used collectively for the benefit of all Mormons under the oversight of Mormon leaders. Individual Mormons would then receive land back from the Church as “stewardships’ from which they were to provide for their families and then distribute any excess for the care of the poor. This redistribution of property and wealth caused a fury amongst some Mormons who viewed private property ownership as a central component of their broader American identity. Ryder and Booth’s war of words against Smith and Rigdon, combined with charges of property aggrandizement against Smith, generated an atmosphere wherein generally peaceful Ohioans resorted to violence in an effort to protect both reputation and property.”

**RESOURCES:**

https://historyofthesaints.org/the-tarring-and-feathering-of-joseph-smith/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/primary-5/lesson-21?lang=eng

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kKKggw159rs

https://www.loc.gov/item/2003654762/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57996-why-was-joseph-smith-really-tarred-and-feathered/

https://historyofmormonism.com/mormon-history/two-church-centers/tcc-1832/joseph-and-sidney-tarred/

http://www.fourth-millennium.net/family-travels/warren-waste-articles.html

https://collections.lib.utah.edu/dl_files/90/95/90952bc05f541dc324afb5725a0dc6a7e34be159.pdf

https://www.ldsliving.com/when-a-mob-failed-to-murder-the-prophet-joseph-smith-twice/s/89143

https://www.byutv.org/player/db5b29ab-142f-45fd-bbb6-d49ee6e7c34b/joseph-smith-papers-visions-and-blessings-tar-and-feathers?listid=874e14b6-098f-453a-b472-39c19a18f20e&listindex=25

https://blog.mrm.org/2006/03/tarred-feathered/

http://scottgemmell.blogspot.com/2010/10/tar-and-feathering-of-prophet-joseph.html?m=1

https://josephsmithandthebookofmormon.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/events-following-the-tarring-and-feathering-of-joseph-smith/

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/minutes-17-february-1833/1#foot-notes

https://journals.tplondon.com/ijor/article/view/1104/854

https://doctrineandcovenantscentral.org/brief-timeline-of-events-in-hiram-ohio/

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/606504

https://www.ranker.com/list/history-of-tarring-and-feathering/rachel-souerbry

http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-peace-and-violence.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKKggw159rs

https://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15999coll31/id/18156

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/oh/paintel2.htm

The post Mormonism LIVE: 093: The Tar and Feathering of Joseph Smith appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 374: Is Mormonism Absurd? – The Bible** Sep 14, 2022
We continue our series exploring specific issues and asking if “Is Mormonism Absurd?” with this episode examining the bible.

**RESOURCES:**

3rd Isaiah or Deutero-Isaiah https://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive/2017/03/deutero-isaiah-in-the-book-of-mormon/index.html

3rd Isaiah or Deutero-Isaiah https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/02/12/2-nephi-and-the-deutero-isaiah-problem-in-the-book-of-mormon-bom2016/

Haley Lemmon on the Adam Clarke Commentary and LDS Inspired Bible https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/05/haley-lemmon-joseph-smith-translation-revelation-plagiarism/

BYU’s acknowledgement of Joseph Smith’s Plagarism of Adam Clarke’s Commentary http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296

Book of Mormon’s use of the Tower of Babel Story https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/babel

Book of Mormon’s use of the Global Flood Story https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/flood

Problems with a Global Flood http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Elias and Elijah http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/eliasandelijah.htm

Book of Moses plagiarizing from New Testament – http://www.withoutend.org/source-criticism-books-moses-abraham/

The post Mormon Discussion: 374: Is Mormonism Absurd? – The Bible appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 373: Bill Reel – Stories from My Life** Sep 14, 2022
In today’s episode of Mormon Discussion, Bill Reel runs through some of the memorable moments from his life. Some of them funny, some of them entertaining, some of them serious all in a effort to help those who follow Mormon Discussion’s work to know Bill better.

The post Mormon Discussion: 373: Bill Reel – Stories from My Life appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 092: Mormon Movie Maker** Sep 08, 2022
RFM and Bill sit down with Movie Director Richard Dutcher to explore his career directing the movies God’s Army, Brigham City, & States of Grace. We take a look at these films through the perspective of Richard’s faith journey and take an evening to get to know the man who kicked of Mormon cinema.

**RESOURCES:**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dutcher

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0244756/

https://youtu.be/9ZHKEOeHAcA

https://youtu.be/9ZgNxauxz-8

https://youtu.be/7HntR1RjEYc

https://youtu.be/TKINAOCVvKg

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1979/05/trust-in-the-lord?lang=eng (12:00)

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/06/michael-reed-and-the-symbol-of-the-cross/ (Richard mentioned the use of the cross in his movies so this might help give context)

The post Mormonism LIVE: 092: Mormon Movie Maker appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 091: Bonnie Cordon & The Breath of Life #HearHim** Sep 01, 2022

Throughout multiple talks including one released just a few days ago, Sister Bonnie Cordon, Young Women general president, has spoke about the loss of her Grandson, Derek within Church approved channels. What she doesn’t say is that the death of this child is surrounded by horrific details that contradict witness statements that involve allegations of child abuse, arrests, homicide, and aggravated Child Abuse charges. We expose this story shining a light on the details of a story where nothing adds up. Everyone in the Church seems willing to use this story to promote the LDS Church but no one wants to clearly explain what happened to this little boy.

**RESOURCES:**

Bonnie Cordon General YW President – www.churchofjesuschrist.org/learn/young-women-general-presidency?lang=eng

Elder Holland joking about Cordon’s being poor www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp8dfu3TEG0&t=3180s

2019 BYU Women’s Conference – https://youtu.be/8xGA6KpBk5I?t=5672 BYU Devotional Feb 4th 2020 – https://youtu.be/cLLShkcaWWM?t=935

www.thechurchnews.com/2020/2/4/23215865/sister-cordon-byu-devotional-prayer

BYU Devotional Feb 4th 2020 – https://youtu.be/cLLShkcaWWM?t=935

Hear Him Recent https://youtu.be/oxpr87qHhzU LDS Mag getting in on the action – https://latterdaysaintmag.com/how-president-cordon-learned-to-hearhim-after-her-grandsons-death/

The 4 Page Report – https://www.myflfamilies.com/childfatality/reports/2016-344471.pdf

page 1 w/ highlights – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Cordon1.png

page 2 w/ highlights – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Cordon2.png

page 3 w/ highlights – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Cordon3.png

page 4 w/ highlights – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Cordon4.png

Point out the important facts and anomalies

Gently Shook him and put hand over his mouth – we know from the obituary that little Derek had a learning disability, which assuredly would make it more difficult for a 2.5 year old to grasp what might be happening as he wakes up from a nightmare in a strange place. Was she possibly admitting in part to a minimized version of what she did or is it a misdirection that takes away focus from the father?

The Father imposes he only was present and aware of the situation once it had gone south

Midnight and leaves hotel at 12:53 AM (almost an hour from initial event to leaving for the hospital

Medical Team made CONCLUSION Hana shook the child too hard and that the father was neglectful in not responding faster

The Family did not call 911 in a in the face of an emergency in a foreign city.

The Family did not try to grab their sister who is a “RN” (Registered Nurse) who is also on vacation in the same hotel as they are.

The mother, Hana drove alone to the hospital with the child

Hana is arrested on December 9th and charged with Aggravated Child Abuse (child hasn’t died yet as he passes away the following day on the 10th).

Sometime between the event and the date of this report on May 2017 the State Attorney isn’t going to prosecute

Neither parents could give an explanation that was consistent with the injuries and the investigation after 5 months deemed the mother action’s impulsive and violent and the father’s inaction having led to this child’s death, all while the entire Cordon family is on vacation in a different state with their RN sister across the hall.

11 month old these parents were allowed to go back to in spite of this being a “very high risk” case with “out of control” parenting (THIS IS A QUESTION)

12. From December 9th 2016 to May 11th 2017, the State of Florida has maintained that this was a homicide caused by the parents of Derek Cordon to little Derek with the parents offering no satisfactory explanation.

Contradictions between the report and what other sources such as LDS material says

Bonnie H. Cordon was named the Young Women general president on March 31, 2018. https://youtu.be/8xGA6KpBk5I?t=5672 – Weird that she says “Suspicion that someone was getting away with something” when that seems to be exactly what happened but not about the same thing. – they are all at the airport together going home.

“he unexpectedly passed away”

Something “Stepford Wives” about these women (I asked myself “Where would people never notice a town full of robots?”. Connecticut.)

Feb 4th 2020 BYU Devotional https://youtu.be/cLLShkcaWWM?t=935

“In the middle of the fourth night, little Derek stopped breathing, and his parents rushed him to the hospital” – That is not what happened. Why does she want the story framed this way?

Surely since she was there, she knows that Hana drove the child to the hospital alone. She says she stayed behind with the family. Surely she remembers her son was there with her.

Surely she is aware that they didn’t rush but instead took almost an hour to head there?

Surely she finds it strange that her son and daughter in law didn’t rush to grab his Registered Nurse Sister across the hall. (AND WHY DIDN’T BONNIE?)

She prayed that little Derek would feel good enough to rejoin them for family activities? The injuries were serious – How could she be naive enough to think this was some minor health issue?

Why is she creating a narrative where the Holy Ghost helps her through her ignorance about to share with her that her grandson has died now knowing how serious this whole thing is. Why is she hijacking this story for the purpose of creating a faith promoting story that ignores the facts?

“The Answer was so far from my thoughts” juxtaposed with this talk is in 2020 and surely she grasps the full scope of her grandson’s death

Her expressions of surprise and shock and lacking understanding till then Holy Ghost helps her is insane.

While she attributes it to the Holy Ghost she admits she knew Derek died almost 48 hours before he died. Don’t allow her to sweep that under the rug giving credit to Mormonism’s Holy Ghost. She knew how bad this was.

Hear Him Recent https://youtu.be/oxpr87qHhzU

“We were on a family vacation, and an unexpected situation happened where our grandson…. Was ……. Ah…. all of a sudden stopped breathing, and we lost him.

Again she admits sort of grasping that she knew that while he wouldn’t die for another 48 hours almost that he was lost.

She says they spent three days with him in a hospital but records indicate the event took place around midnight on the night of the 8th/morning of the 9th and that he arrived at the hospital on the early morning of December 9th 2016 and he was pronounced deceased on December 10th at 7:40 PM and the obituary agrees ( https://www.sundbergolpinmortuary.com/obituary/Derek-Cordon )

Obituary https://www.sundbergolpinmortuary.com/obituary/Derek-Cordon

“Although he struggled to learn how to talk, many of his first words and phrases were about trucks, such as “two-ton tanker truck”

Cordon XMAS https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/CordonXmas.png

The post Mormonism LIVE: 091: Bonnie Cordon & The Breath of Life #HearHim appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 090: Weird Alma Strikes Again** Aug 25, 2022
This week RFM and Bill sit down with the creator and musical artist known as Weird Alma. Weird Alma has brought us musical parodies such as Gaslighting, S.C.M.C., Tapirback Rider, You’re (Several Months Shy of) Fifteen, and many more. Weird Alma shows us firsthand that humor and music can play a role in our processing and healing from religious trauma.
**Resources:**
https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/116pages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrisite_War
https://gdoc.pub/doc/e/2PACX-1vRh7CxIlETHNYtH5jk0MXsWc5FVChckAUODY2QDGjLCjDGYWFgzOlGq1JORs4EZsbDzh63DvdShYNU1
http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/MormonExpression276.mp3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yihq8BIhL9c
Weird Alma the artist is not associated with Mormon Discussion Inc. or the Mormonism LIVE Show. His song’s contain similar tunes and lyrics to other well known songs. He holds that said use of music falls under FAIR USE and under the realm of Parody. **Parody is a literary or musical work in which the style of an author or work is closely imitated for comic effect.** Eric Herman offers his parody songs for free hence his music is not for commercial use. The only monetary gain for Mormon Discussion Inc (a Federally approved Non-profit) is youtube advertising which it is sharing per youtube’s agreement with the original artists.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 090: Weird Alma Strikes Again appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 372: Is Mormonism Absurd – Angels & Animals** Aug 20, 2022
In the this installment of our series “Is Mormonism Absurd” we cover the chapter on Angels and the chapter on animals. We explore whether why John the Baptist didn’t baptize Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. We hit on Joseph Smith referring to the angel who visited him as Nephi instead of Moroni. We look at D&C 129 and evaluate whether handshakes as a tool to discern good angels and bad angels makes rational sense. We cover the Joseph Smith bible translation as a plagiarism of Adam Clark’s commentary. We discuss the Mormon theology of Enoch (sorry but I referred to him as Elijah in the episode) and his people being taken up into space. And we finish by discussing Animal and plant anachronisms in the Book of Mormon

**RESOURCES:**

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/04/shaking-hands-and-drawn-sword/

mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/09/159-handshakes-and-drawn-swords-ii/

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Moroni%27s_visit/Nephi_or_Moroni

http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296

mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/05/haley-lemmon-joseph-smith-translation-revelation-plagiarism/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronisms_in_the_Book_of_Mormon

The post Mormon Discussion: 372: Is Mormonism Absurd – Angels & Animals appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 089: Manipulation, Money, & Mormon Sex Abuse** Aug 18, 2022
Mormonism LIVE: 089: Manipulation, Money, & Mormon Sex Abuse On this Episode Bill 7 RFM take a look at the recent Sex Abuse Scandal trying to explore the legal process and try to better understand the LDS Church’s perspective. We look at the Arizona Law, talk about the when , how, and why about the Church’s helpline. They sort through why the Church imposes non-reporting in states that give a choice. And they finish talking about the newest press release on the issue released during their live show.
**Resources:**
https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/confession-in-lds-doctrine-and-practice/
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2022/08/12/brenton-erickson-gerardo-sumano/?
fbclid=IwAR0jfW9LUQzC5zKcwBXVaoaa7rhcOrwFIRAHs3lr2h6LTIykF_rjmWVBm6w
https://apnews.com/article/Mormon-church-sexual-abuse-investigation-e0e39cf9aa4fbe0d8c1442033b894660
https://apnews.com/article/Mormon-church-sexual-abuse-takeaways-f01fba7521ddddffa89622668b54ac10
https://www.deseret.com/2022/8/5/23292405/i-survived-abuse-church-help-line-ap-story-broke-my-heart-latter-day-saints-associated-press-mormon
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/8/17/23310740/statement-from-church-on-arizona-sex-abuse-case-mormon-lds
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2022/8/12/23303040/utah-lawmakers-seek-end-clergy-exception-child-abuse-reporting-latter-day-saint-catholic
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-provides-further-details-about-arizona-abuse-case

The post Mormonism LIVE: 089: Manipulation, Money, & Mormon Sex Abuse appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 371: Is Mormonism Absurd – Native Americans & Lamanites** Aug 11, 2022
We continue our series walking out the logic of Mormon Claims. In this fourth segment we dive into the Native Americans as Lamanites. We talk about skin curses of color change, of whether the Nephites came to an empty Americas, the non success of missionary work to the Lamanites, and how the Book of Mormon is written to a people we can no longer with certainty locate. We talk out each of these and if rational thinking presents any problems with the faithful view.

The post Mormon Discussion: 371: Is Mormonism Absurd – Native Americans & Lamanites appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 370: Is Mormonism Absurd – America The Land of Promise** Aug 11, 2022
We continue our series walking out the logic of Mormon Claims. In this third installment we tackle the role America plays in the restoration. From a Land of Promise to being the home of the Nephites and Lamanites, to Christ’s visit, to being where Noah set sail as a Global Flood took place. We talk out each of these and if rational thinking presents any problems with the faithful view.

The post Mormon Discussion: 370: Is Mormonism Absurd – America The Land of Promise appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 088: LDS FORCE** Aug 11, 2022
A USAF sergeant explains how the strict demands of Mormonism broke him as a young man, making him feel completely alone and unaccepted by God, even causing eating disorders. After every solution the Church offered failed, he finally found healing through secular means.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 088: LDS FORCE appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 369: The Death of Free Agency in Mormonism** Aug 05, 2022
In 2016 David A Bednar, Apostle in the LDS Church taught the doctrine of Moral or Representative Agency. This perspective seemed to be different than the type of Agency that Mormonism had taught up to that moment. “Free Agency” was officially gone and something less free was being created. On today’s episode we look at the new Doctrine and compare it with how Agency had been taught for two centuries leading up to that and then explore how this new approach is being used to get members of the Church to what the leaders need them to do.

RESOURCES:

Elder Packer removing “Free” from “Free Agency” – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1992/04/our-moral-environment?lang=eng

David Bednar teaching Moral Agency or Representative Agency – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmErOV9oQZ8

LDS General Conference Search Engine to see how “Free Agency” was taught over 2 centuries – https://www.lds-general-conference.org/

Elder Delbert Stapley (Q12) “Using Our Free Agency” – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1975/05/using-our-free-agency?lang=eng

Elder Bruce R. McConkie made this statement about free agency:“Four great principles must be in force if there is to be agency: 1. *Laws must exist,* laws ordained by an Omnipotent power, laws which can be obeyed or disobeyed; 2. Opposites must exist—good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong—that is, there must be an opposition, one force pulling … the other. 3. A knowledge of good and evil must be had by those who are to enjoy the agency, that is, they must know the difference between the opposites; and *4. An unfettered power of choice must prevail*. Agency is given to man as an essential part of the great plan of redemption.” (Mormon Doctrine, Bookcraft, Inc., 1966 ed., p. 26.)

“Teachings of Joseph Smith” Study Manual – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-24?lang=eng

“I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.” – Joseph Smith

“No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (D&C 121:37, 41) – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/121?lang=eng

Principles of Leadership Teachers Manual Lesson 2 – Honoring the Agency of Those We Lead – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/principles-of-leadership-teachers-manual-religion-180/lesson-2-honoring-the-agency-of-those-we-lead?lang=eng

“Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that *ye are free to act for yourselves*—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life” (2 Nephi 10:23).

Neal A. Maxwell, who was later called to the Quorum of the Twelve, wrote that leaders basically follow one of three styles of leadership: manipulative, directive, and participative. In manipulative leadership, the leader manipulates people and circumstances to achieve group goals. In directive leadership, the leader makes decisions, with or without input from the group. In participative leadership, the group shares responsibility for making decisions. Read Brother Maxwell’s discussion of these principles in the teacher resources section below. Note that Brother Maxwell recommended a mix of directive and participative leadership styles. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/principles-of-leadership-teachers-manual-religion-180/lesson-2-honoring-the-agency-of-those-we-lead?lang=eng

“If a leader uses guilt to motivate a person to do something, is the leader honoring that person’s agency? Explain your answer.” – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/principles-of-leadership-teachers-manual-religion-180/lesson-2-honoring-the-agency-of-those-we-lead?lang=eng

Agency = The ability and privilege God gives people to choose and to act for themselves. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/free-agency?lang=eng

The Governing Ones By Elder William R. Bradford Of the First Quorum of the Seventy – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/10/the-governing-ones?lang=eng
The most basic, fundamental principle of truth, that upon which the entire plan of God is founded, is free agency. As an individual you have the right to govern yourself. It is divinely given to you to think and act as you wish. It is your decision. It must be pointed out, however, that although you have the free agency to choose for yourself, you do not have the right to choose what will be the result of your decision.

Helaman 14:30 And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/hel/14?lang=eng&id=30#29

D&C58:27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; 28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/58?lang=eng&id=27#26

Now, none of us are on the narrow path all of the time. All of us make mistakes. That is why Lehi, who understood the Savior’s role in preserving and reclaiming our agency, taught Jacob—and us: “The Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon.”21 That is the key—“to act for themselves and not to be acted upon.” – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/04/to-act-for-ourselves-the-gift-and-blessings-of-agency?lang=eng

In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show what choices we will make (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16). If we were forced to choose the right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves. Also, we are happier doing things when we have made our own choices. Agency was one of the principal issues to arise in the premortal Council in Heaven. It was one of the main causes of the conflict between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. The Lord has said that all people are responsible for their own motives, attitudes, desires, and actions. Even though we are free to choose our course of action, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. The consequences, whether good or bad, follow as a natural result of any choice we make (see Galatians 6:7; Revelation 22:12). – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/agency-and-accountability?lang=eng

God’s plan is the opposite of Satan’s plan of compulsion – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/10/commandments-to-live-by?lang=eng&country=au

Church and Family Leaders Should Honor the Agency of Those They Lead – He never compelled them to obey Him. – Ask how leaders might be tempted not to respect the agency of others. – If a leader uses guilt to motivate a person to do something, is the leader honoring that person’s agency? – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/principles-of-leadership-teachers-manual-religion-180/lesson-2-honoring-the-agency-of-those-we-lead?lang=eng

One of our Articles of Faith says: We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. That is the expression of a great principle, a principle that has been operative among the children of God from the earliest period of which we have any record. It was pursuant to that principle, and in the exercise of the rights guaranteed thereby, that a third of the hosts of heaven revolted, in an effort to overcome the plan which God adopted. Personally, I would not in any way, and in the lightest or slightest degree, hamper anyone’s free agency. Literally, I feel and believe that men should worship how, where, or what they may. That is the spirit of the priesthood, the priesthood which we hold. The priesthood never compels. God himself does not compel the intellect, nor does he attempt to overthrow it. – J. Reuben Clark 1949

Free agency is an everlasting principle which has existed with God from all eternity. It is a gift from him given with the hope that we will apply it wisely in the conduct of our personal lives. Freedom of choice is a moral agency which we should keep uppermost in our minds in all our activities and decisions. “By virtue of this agency you and I and all mankind are made responsible beings, responsible for the course we pursue, the lives we live, the deeds we do in the body.” (Wilford Woodruff, Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, Bookcraft, Inc., 1969, pp. 8–9.)

Stake Leader perpetuating Bednars Representative Agency Doctrine to impose all Mormon males are obligated to serve missions. – https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vukmi1/serving_a_mormon_mission_is_no_longer_a_choice/

The post Mormon Discussion: 369: The Death of Free Agency in Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 087: Mormonism Grooms Compliance** Aug 04, 2022
Today we dive deep into the idea that Mormonism grooms compliance. We start by showing it is the baseline of our theology and belief system. We show how it is reinforced by our stories and songs, show all the pervasive ways it shows up in our faith system. And even how the Leaders impose such on each other. And then discuss how unhealthy such is.

A.) Obedience is the First Law of Heaven or the ground zero of theology/commandments

“Obedience is the first law of heaven, the cornerstone upon which all righteousness and progression rest. It consists in compliance with divine law, in conformity to the mind and will of Deity, in complete subjection to God and his commands” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 539).

D&C 130: 20-21 – There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

It is important to obey God even when we may not fully understand the commandment (see Moses 5:5–6; 1 Nephi 3:7).

B.) The constant teaching that answering NO is not allowed and how it is a “Thought Stopping Technique”

It starts young

Don’t say no to a boy at a dance

At a young age, girls getting used to complying to the men in their lives

What 8 year old says no to baptism. Isn’t it strange that no one says no. If everyone says yes, is it really a choice?

It is persistent – Don’t say no to a calling

“Just as service in the Church is not sought, it is not turned down,” Oaks

“I often hear about members who refuse Church callings or accept callings and fail to fulfill their responsibilities. Some are not committed and faithful. It has always been so. But this is not without consequence . . . My brothers and sisters, if you are delinquent in commitment, please consider who it is you are refusing or neglecting to serve when you decline a calling or when you accept, promise, and fail to fulfill.” oaks

“While we do not ask to be released from a calling, if our circumstances change it is quite in order for us to counsel with those who have issued the call and then let the decision rest with them.” – Boyd K Packer

Get married young

Don’t put off having children, don’t use birth control, have lots of children

It culminated in the temple

Do you covenant to obey your husband as he obeys God?

Bow your head and say yes

“Give all your time, talent, and EVERYTHING you possess to the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints.”

Contention is of the devil – making disagreement bad and the higher authority always wins

God commanding Adam to sacrifice animals (Moses 5: 4-7). Adam follows the command for many days until eventually an angel appears and asks why Adam is performing the sacrifices. Adam respond, “I know not, save the Lord commanded me.” – you do not need a reason to obey

non-levite steadying the ark

Follow the Prophet – he can’t lead us astray – What does this even mean since there are numerous occasion where false doctrines have been taught and believed?

President Harold B. Lee (1899–1973) taught this same principle: “You keep your eye upon him whom the Lord called, and I say to you now, knowing that I stand in this position, you don’t need to worry about the President of the Church ever leading people astray, because the Lord would remove him out of his place before He would ever allow that to happen” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1996], 533).

President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910–2008) gave similar assurance to Church members: “The Church is true. Those who lead it have only one desire, and that is to do the will of the Lord. They seek his direction in all things. There is not a decision of significance affecting the Church and its people that is made without prayerful consideration, going to the fount of all wisdom for direction. Follow the leadership of the Church. God will not let his work be led astray” (“Be Not Deceived,” Ensign, Nov. 1983, 46; emphasis added).

“When the Prophet speaks, … the debate is over” (Ensign, Nov. 1978, p. 108).

Perpetual inadequacy instead of critical thinking – You are broken and fallen and need us more than we need you so get in line.

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Agency doesn’t work the way we thought. Agency is only to provide a space to choose God at all times – ”You have agency in order to show willing compliance”

Elder Bednar teaching such – https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=mmErOV9oQZ8&fbclid=IwAR1VJnnc3mTGNCvhteMfPZqe0-uLPS9xczTMEe2E9C_i5bP5_mH6bx0Erw4

Having a sustaining vote but in which a “NO vote” means nothing

It’s wrong to criticize the Leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true

stay away from “unauthorized” or “unapproved” sources – Thought stopping technique – trust us. Do not consider criticism to see if they are valid

Want Happiness? Align Your Will with God, Sister Oscarson Says

“At times members may participate in ‘selective obedience,’ claiming to love God and honor God while picking and choosing which of His commandments and teachings— and the teachings and counsel of His prophets — we will fully follow,” Robert D Hales

“STAY ON THE COVENANT PATH” = Obedience is the first law of heaven

Feeling obligated to Clean the bathrooms for free of a multi hundred billion dollar organization

You will lose your eternal family for eternity if you don’t comply

Missions for men are not a choice Another link

C.) We make heroes out of those who proceed with the horrific and label people bad or sinful who might object out of conscience

Abraham and Isaac

Nephi and Laban

D&C 132: Emma will be destroyed

D.) Church Leaders impose that we obey them at all costs

Elder Bednar – Moral Agency vs Free Agency

E.) Leadership teach each other to be compliant

Apostolic charge – “Always be willing to subjugate his own thoughts and accept the majority opinion not only to vote for it but to act as though it were his own original opinion after it has been approved by the majority of the council of the twelve and the First Presidency.”

The post Mormonism LIVE: 087: Mormonism Grooms Compliance appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 368: Is Mormonism Absurd – Mormon Heaven & The 3 Kingdoms** Aug 03, 2022
We continue a series today where we break down specific issues and weigh how much irrational ideas we have to believe in order for Mormonism to be true. Sit with how much allowances and conjecture is required for these small specific topics within Mormonism. For this series we use the book “Obscure Mormon Doctrine” written by Chris Jensen. In this second installment we tackle Mormon Afterlife or the 3 Degrees of Glory and Outer Darkness

The post Mormon Discussion: 368: Is Mormonism Absurd – Mormon Heaven & The 3 Kingdoms appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 367: Is Mormonism Absurd – Adam Our First Parent** Aug 02, 2022
We start a series today where we break down specific issues and weigh how much irrational ideas we have to believe in order for Mormonism to be true. Sit with how much allowances and conjecture is required for these small specific topics within Mormonism. For this series we use the book “Obscure Mormon Doctrine” written by Chris Jensen

The post Mormon Discussion: 367: Is Mormonism Absurd – Adam Our First Parent appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 086: Would the Real Joseph Smith Please Stand Up?** Jul 28, 2022
Major News in Mormonism happened this week when a photograph surfaced alleging to be the Prophet Joseph Smith. So Bill and RFM dug into the story and followed the trail examining the Photographs, Portraits, Daguerreotypes, and other depictions both known to be Joseph for certain and also alleged to see if we could get to the bottom of what Joseph Smith really looked like.

RESOURCES:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2012/12/small-and-simple-things/what-did-joseph-smith-really-look-like?lang=eng

https://www.calledtoshare.com/2020/11/12/what-did-joseph-smith-really-look-like-8-images-that-provide-us-with-clues/

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/hidden-things-what-did-joseph-smith-actually-look-like/

https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/1997-12-06/what-did-joseph-smith-really-look-like-128922

Book – Images of the Prophet Joseph Smith: Davis Bitton – https://www.amazon.com/Images-Prophet-Joseph-Smith-Bitton/dp/1562362232

https://youtu.be/Qjpd7ufLGIk?t=1

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Skulls-and-Crossed-Bones-A-Forensic-Study-of-the-Remains-of-Hyrum-and-Joseph-Smith.pdf

https://www.knowbrotherjoseph.com/death-mask-unreliable

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/i2icav/ai_can_analyse_a_portrait_and_calculate_what_the/

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/w5durw/all_the_pieces_fit/

http://silverepicent.com/photofound/photofound/Photograph_Found/RLDS_Painting.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5aUTj-VvRM – Historical discussion of the Joseph Smith photo discovery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rspFgoyU5Hg – amateur facial analysis of the Death Mask and the newly discovered photo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzk4Z4Wrz38 – 2nd amateur facial analysis of the Death Mask and the newly discovered photo.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 086: Would the Real Joseph Smith Please Stand Up? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 085: Lighthouse – The Story of Tanners** Jul 21, 2022
RFM and Bill sit down with Ronald Huggins, author of the new book “Lighthouse: Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Despised and Beloved Critics of Mormonism” & Sandra Tanner who is featured in the book to discuss some of the interesting stories that went into the published work. And towards the end of the show we discuss Bill recently dealing with a threat from the son of one of the General Authorities who heads up the SCMC (Strengthening Church Members Committee) as well as Bill’s recent interaction with FAIR regarding God’s carnal intercourse with Mary, the Mother of Jesus

The post Mormonism LIVE: 085: Lighthouse – The Story of Tanners appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 084: Did God Have Sex With Mary?** Jul 14, 2022

When RFM and Bill Reel joined Mormonism, they heard rumors that Early LDS Leaders had taught that Mary was impregnated by Heavenly Father via a sexual act. But the Church and its apologists insisted that such idea was a misconstrued out of context assumption and with a sleight of hand the problem was gone…. Or is it. Tonight on Mormonism LIVE, RFM and Bill Reel take a long hard look at where this idea comes from within the history and see if baby Jesus was in fact the illegitimate child of our heavenly father. **RESOURCES:**

BRIGHAM YOUNG—APRIL 9, 1852—JD 1:50-51

https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/1861

(This is a BYU Library Digital Collections page)

My next sermon will be….

Stems from D&C 130:22

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130?lang=eng

The father has a body of flesh and bones (resurrected from another world)

There are three personages; if only one, this question would never come up; but because there are three, and because we are being hyper-literal about things; this question does come up, and BY resolves the question by saying Jesus is not the son of the Holy Ghost, but the son of the Father.

**Heber C. Kimball**: SEPTEMBER 2, 1860 “In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it.” [*Journal of Discourses* vol. 8:211]

ORSON PRATT IN AGREEMENT!

ORSON PRATT—The Seer, Vol 1. No. 10, 1853 (page 158-59)

https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/18108

**Orson Pratt**: the Holy Ghost gave her [Mary] strength to abide in the presence of the Father without being consumed, but it was the personage of the Father who begat the body of Jesus; and for this reason Jesus is called ‘the Only Begotten of the Father;’ that is, the only one in this world whose fleshly body was begotten by the Father. There were millions of sons and daughters who he begat before the foundation of this world, but they were spirits, and not bodies of flesh and bones [*The Seer*, 158.]

**GOD MARRIED TO MARY—STARTS WITH ORSON PRATT?**

The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)

Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in the mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)

NOTE: Orson Pratt was opposed to BY on the Adam-God Theory; i.e., that it was Adam who came and had sex with Mary; but Orson Pratt was totally on board with the idea that Elohim did the exact same thing!

BUT THEN BRIGHAM YOUNG ECHOES THE IDEA

**Brigham Young** AUGUST 19, 1866 “The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband.” [*Journal of Discourses*, vol. 11:268]

Bill: Orson Pratt and Brigham Young Agree…. Huh – It is not just a single quote “hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk”.

JESUS THE CHRIST—JAMES TALMAGE

Mention My Special Little Leather Book!

Chapter 7—Page 81 (published 1915)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-7?lang=eng

His message delivered, Gabriel departed, leaving the chosen Virgin of Nazareth to ponder over her wondrous experience. Mary’s promised Son was to be “The Only Begotten” of the Father in the flesh; so it had been both positively and abundantly predicted. True, the event was unprecedented; true also it has never been paralleled; but that the virgin birth would be unique was as truly essential to the fulfillment of prophecy as that it should occur at all. That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the “Son of the Highest.” In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman.

MELVIN J. BALLARD (1923)

https://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book%20_of_Mormon/02_1nephi/1nephi11/1nephi11_08conceptionjesus_mjb.htm

**Melvin J. Ballard** (Mormon apostle): “as to whether or not his was a virgin birth, a birth wherein divine power interceded. … And if God the Eternal Father is not the real Father of Jesus Christ, then are we in confusion; then is he not in reality the Son of God. But we declare that he is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. … No man or woman can live in mortality and survive the presence of the Highest except by the sustaining power of the Holy Ghost. So it came upon her to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God. Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men–the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father.” [*Deseret News*, 23 Dec 1923; Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, 166-167.]

JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH

CHAPTER 2 THE SON OF GOD THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THE FIRSTBORN.

DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, VOLUME 1:12-14

https://josephsmithfoundation.org/doctrines-of-salvation/

CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF HOLY GHOST. I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them that he was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father. Truly, all things are done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It was through this power that Jesus was brought into this world, but not as the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God. Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him,but his Father is greater than he! He has said it. Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!

*****

FALSE “REORGANITE” DOCTRINE ABOUT BIRTH OF CHRIST. “Reorganites” claim that Brigham Young went astray and apostatized because he declared that Jesus Christ was not begotten of the Holy Ghost. “Reorganites claim that he was begotten of the Holy Ghost, and they make the statement that the scriptures so teach. But they do err not understanding the scriptures. They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge the statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible. It is true there is one passage that states so, but we must consider it in the light of other passages with which it is in conflict.

NOTE: This ties in later with the FAIR response which relies first on the passage of scripture that JSF challenges and refutes!

********

CHRIST NOT SON OF THE HOLY GHOST. If “Reorganites” are correct, then Jesus is not the Only Begotten Son of the Father, but the Son of the Holy Ghost. This will not do for it conflicts with the scriptures. The Prophet taught that the Father. Son, and Holy Ghost were three separate personages, and that Jesus was the Only Begotten of the Father. In the Book of Genesis (Inspired Version), Jesus is spoken of throughout as the Only Begotten of the Father not less than 12 times, and in the Book of Mormon at least five times, and a great number of times in the Doctrine and Covenants; and in these scriptures he is spoken of as the Son of God innumerable times.

Now, if he is the Only Begotten of the Father in flesh, he must be the Son of the Father and not the Son of the Holy Ghost. Yet, to be consistent, “Reorganites” must claim that Jesus is the Son of the Holy Ghost and not the Son of God the Father. Their alternative — if it can be called such — must be, then, the stand of Mr. William H. Kelley, “president” of their “apostles,” who gave a written statement in answer to the question put to him by the writer, September 10, 1903: “You say that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was begotten of the Holy Ghost. Is he the Son of the Holy Ghost?”

Mr. Kelley signed his answer as follows: “I do not know. Wm. H. Kelley.”

Just think of this for a moment. Here is a man professing to be the chief of the special witnesses for Christ, declaring that he does not know whether Jesus is the Son of God the Father or the Son of the Holy Ghost. And the Savior declared it so plainly that he was the Son of the Father, his Only Begotten, and was so acknowledged by the Father throughout the scriptures. “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

**Joseph F Smith 1914:**: “Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father …Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body” [*1972 “Family Home Evening Journal” pg 126* ] https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/godmaryhomeevening1972.png

BRUCE R. McCONKIE (MORMON DOCTRINE) 1st edition 1958 (pg 495 in adobe version)

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/6b/1958-Mormon_Doctrine-Bruce_R_McConkie.pdf

Only Begotten Son. See BELOVED SoN, CHRIST, SoN, SoN OF God. Christ is the Only Begotten (Moses I :6, 17, 21, 33; 2:1, 26-27; 3: 18; 4:1), the Only Begotten Son (Jae. 4:5, I I; Alma 12:33-34; 13:5; D. & C. 20:21; 29:42; 49:5; 76:13, 25; John 1:18; 3: 16), the Only Begotten of the Father. (Moses 5:9.) These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally: Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. (p. 494)

SON OF GOD: (p. 670) God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says.

REDEFINITION OF WORD “VIRGIN”

“For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being” (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466).

Mormon Doctrine—First Edition—1958—page 745

Virgin Birth. SEE ANNUNCIATION, BIRTH, CHRIST, IMMACULATE CONCEPTION THEORY, MARY. Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. Mary, his mother, “was carried away in the Spirit” (1 Ne. 11:13-21), was “overshadowed” by the Holy Ghost, and the conception which took place “by the power of the Holy Ghost” resulted in the bringing forth of the literal and personal Son of God the Father. (Alma 7: 10; 2 Ne. 17: 14; Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38.) Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. I, pp. 18-20.) Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false.

NOTE: This innovation allows for Mary to still be a “virgin” so long as we define a virgin who has never had sex with a man; but apparently Mary could have physical sex with an immortal being and still be considered a “virgin.”

EZRA TAFT BENSON

**Ezra Taft Benson** quoted in Encyclopedia of Mormonism, page 725

And then 729

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MORMONISM (1990)

https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/EoM/id/3818

**Eldred G Smith** : “If our Father in heaven is an exalted being-I just want to knock one little principle that is taught around the world that I cannot believe-then he has the capacity and the ability of accomplishing and doing anything that any mortal can do. I cannot believe this doctrine that is taught universally of an immaculate conception of Christ, that Christ was born from an immaculate conception. There is no such thing possible. Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God the Father by his spirit body and also by his physical body. The difference between Christ and us is that he had the same Father for his spirit body that he had for his physical body. But He had a mortal mother on earth. The scriptures say that she was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. (See Luke 1:35.) Of course there had to be some means of making this possible while she was still in mortality. Further details are not necessary, but Christ himself declared all his life that he was the Son of God, and he meant it” (Eldred G. Smith (Patriarch to the Church), March 10, 1964, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1964, p.8). **IN OFFICIAL PUBLICATION**

“He is the Son of God, literally, actually, as men are the sons of mortal parents..” (*What the Mormons Think of Christ*, a pamphlet published by the LDS Church, p. 27) 1982

https://issuu.com/vintageldspamphlets/docs/what_the_mormons_think_of_christ_19_d4a3fb717d1404 Bill: https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Mormon-Leaders-claim-God-impregnated-Mary-by-sex.pdf Wait a minute…. Brigham Young taught it, Orson Pratt Agreed, The early brethren taught it including Heber C Kimball and Melvin J Ballard. It has been taught over and over by Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R McConkie, Ezra Taft Benson. It was spoken of as a way to know LDS Mormonism was true and the Reorganites weren’t. It was taught in Jesus the Christ, part of the “approved missionary library” and is spoken of in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism which while not official ? Huh… So It is not just a single quote “hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk”. PLAY NEIL ANDERSON QUOTE

**Harold B Lee**:

“Bruce Bracken
[Address Redacted]
Logan Utah 84321

Dear Bro. Bracken,
We are very much concerned that some of our teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine that cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.
You asked about the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about sexual intercourse between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject in Luke 1:34-35:
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
“Remember that the being who was brought about by [Mary’s] conception was a divine personage. We need not question His method to accomplish His purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts
Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until He sees fit to tell us more.” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, ed. Clyde J. Williams
Sincerely Yours,
Harold B Lee
(Private Letter January 2nd 1969)

**FAIR RESPONSE**

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Did_God_have_Sex_with_Mary.pdf

Doesn’t quote from Brigham Young!

Goes to the scriptures that Joseph Fielding Smith argued against!

RESOURCES:

https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Mormon-Leaders-claim-God-impregnated-Mary-by-sex.pdf

https://www.mrm.org/virgin-birth

https://issuu.com/vintageldspamphlets/docs/what_the_mormons_think_of_christ_19_d4a3fb717d1404

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Did_God_have_Sex_with_Mary.pdf

https://beliefmap.org/mormonism/mormonism-teaches-god-and-mary-sexually-produced-jesus

https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/godmaryhom

The post Mormonism LIVE: 084: Did God Have Sex With Mary? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 083: The Best Books for Diving into the Messiness of Mormonism** Jul 07, 2022
If one is finally at a place where they really want to understand both sides, really want to wrestle with their faith, what are the books that best introduce the believer to the complex history, the fallibility of prophets, and the trauma of Mormon influence? Bill and RFM seek to lay out a list of books that introduce the reader to a more full picture of Mormonism, of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it leaders since that spring morning in 1820.

Fawn Brodie – No Man Knows my History

Richard Bushman – Rough Stone Rolling

D. Michael Quinn – Early Mormonism and the Magic World View

D. Michael Quinn – The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power

D. Michael Quinn – The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power

Greg Prince – Leonard Arrington and the Writing of Mormon History

Greg Prince – David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism

Paul Reeve – Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness

Devery Scott Anderson – Development of LDS Temple Worship

Todd Compton – In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith

Grant Palmer – An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins

Linda King Newell & Valeen Tippetts Avery – Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith

Charley Harrel – This is My Doctrine

Juanita Brooks – The Mountain Meadows Massacre

Carol Lynn Pearson – Goodbye I Love You

Greg Prince – Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences

Eber D Howe – Mormonism Unveiled – Dan Vogel commentary

Robert Ritner—The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321

Robert Ritner—Paper—Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham— https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/Research_Archives/Translation%20and%20Historicity%20of%20the%20Book%20of%20Abraham%20final-2.pdf

Jeremy Runnells—CES Letter

https://cesletter.org/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 083: The Best Books for Diving into the Messiness of Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 082: Charley Harrell & Contemplating Mormon Doctrine** Jun 30, 2022
We sit down with Former BYU Professor, and author of the book “This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology”, Charley Harrell to dive into several important assumptions Mormonism and its leaders and members impose in order to cleanly define doctrine. But do these really hold up? Can the word Doctrine as used within the LDS Church be defined in such a way that any imposed definition can be dependable? A.) **What is Church doctrine?**

Dictionary Definition = Doctrine comes from the Latin *Doctrina* which means “teachings.” The first definition that comes up in a Google search is from the Oxford English Dictionary:

“**a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church**, political party, or other group. ‘the doctrine of predestination’”

So essentially, religious doctrines are simply the teachings or beliefs of a particular religion.

Generally Understood = The term “doctrine” is generally used in the Church to refer either to propositional statements about God and his works or to explanatory narratives about how God operates in the world. Propositional statements include: God has a body, God created the world, Christ died for the sins of the world. Explanatory narratives include: How the world came to be, How the priesthood works, How the Church was lost and restored, How the atonement and plan of salvation work.

“Official” doctrine comprises those teachings which are found in the scriptures, current Church publications, and are agreed upon by the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12.

Neil Anderson “Trial of Your Faith” – “A few question their faith when they find a statement made by a Church leader decades ago that seems incongruent with our doctrine. There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find. Periodical = https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2012/10/trial-of-your-faith?lang=eng Audio = https://www.dropbox.com/s/q84cy1su76kkpw5/AndersonDoctrineNotHardToFind.mp3?dl=0

We should share briefly that LDS leaders have attempted to define doctrine in ways that expose that the word is fluid and simply doesn’t hold up to scrutiny or critical thinking. What does this definition say about doctrines that were widely taught in prior times and no longer taught today? Plural Marriage (MY EXPERIENCE IN HIGH PRIEST GROUP ABOUT DOCTRINE) Reason for the priesthood ban Lamanite identification Does the fact that it has to be taught by everyone in the 1^st presidency and Q12 impose an unreasonably high bar? WASN’T THERE AT TIME NOT TOO LONG AGO WHEN DOCTRINE WAS ESTABLISHED FIRST BY WHETHER THE PROPHET SAID IT; THEN BY WHETHER IT WAS A FIRST PRESIDENCY STATEMENT; THEN (NOW) BY WHETHER ALL FIFTEEN AGREE? IT SEEMS THAT THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE FIRST PRESIDENCY AND QUORUM OF TWELVE HAVE ALL BUT DISAPPEARED AT LEAST WHEN IT COMES TO ESTABLISHING DOCTRINE Does Elder Anderson’s doctrine of doctrine meet his own criteria of doctrine?

D. Todd Christofferson “At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”” Periodical = https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2012/04/the-doctrine-of-christ?lang=eng

QUESTION: WHEN IS A PROPHET ACTING AS SUCH IF NOT WHEN HE IS ADDRESSING THE CHURCH IN HIS ROLE AS PROPHET? IT SHOULD REALLY BE VERY SIMPLE; NOT A GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD EVERY TIME A PROPHET SPEAKS AS A PROPHET AND GETS IT WRONG. Audio = https://www.dropbox.com/s/q6ar0dwvdfq1iv8/DoctrineVsStatementsCristofferson.mp3?dl=0

Other definitions given by the Church (Don’t need to go in depth)

“Doctrine—The truths of the gospel in general. Instruction and confirmation in the truths of the gospel.”

Church Newsroom remains ambiguous

The Church makes several claims about Mormon doctrines that together can be said to constitute the doctrine of LDS doctrine. But are these claims really warranted by empirical evidence? B.) Claims vs Realities

**Claim**: Mormon doctrine derives primarily from the Standard Works and official statements of the Church leadership.

The Church Newsroom states, “[Our] doctrine resides in the four ‘standard works’ of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.” (LDS Newsroom 2007)

THIS IS WHAT I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE IN THE WRITINGS OF BRM AND JFS; THAT DOCTRINE IS ESTABLISHED BY THE STANDARD WORKS; THAT IS WHY THEY ARE CALLED THE STANDARD WORKS; AND IF ANY LEADER TEACHES SOMETHING CONTRARY TO THE STANDARD WORKS, YOU CAN KNOW IT IS NOT CORRECT. **Reality**: Doctrine doesn’t just jump out of the scriptures, it has to be interpreted by the reader. LDS doctrine, therefore, doesn’t actually “reside” in the scriptures, but in the Church’s interpretation of the scriptures. Further, since scripture is not univocal, one must pick and choose which passages to use. So in reality Mormon doctrine derives from a biased selection of scriptural fragments, often taken out of context, that are cobbled together to construct a doctrinal view.

Things not in the scriptures or misunderstood become hard truths within the Church – April 6th & Take, for example, the three degrees of glory…

Things that are in the scriptures are discarded or altered once worldly evidence comes to be accepted. (flood, tower of babel, 6000 year old earth, racism, april 6th)

**Claim**: Church doctrines are eternal truths. The underlying logic is that, Because God is a God of truth and would never lie, all of the teachings he reveals through his prophets are true.

Joseph Smith – “I never told you I was perfect; but **there is no error in the revelations which I have taught**” (HC, 6:366).

Russell M. Nelson – TIME STAMP 13:47 to 14:58 – “Sometimes we as leaders of the Church are criticized for holding firm to the laws of God, defending the Savior’s doctrine, and resisting the social pressures of our day. But our commission as ordained apostles is “to go into all the world to preach [His] gospel unto every creature.”8 That means we are commanded to teach truth. In doing so, sometimes we are accused of being uncaring as we teach the Father’s requirements for exaltation in the celestial kingdom. But wouldn’t it be far more uncaring for us not to tell the truth—not to teach what God has revealed? It is precisely because we do care deeply about all of God’s children that we proclaim His truth. We may not always tell people what they want to hear. Prophets are rarely popular. But **we will always teach the truth**!” **Reality**: Many doctrines have been shown to be in error, especially when disproven by science (age of the earth, of man, etc.) and therefore changed or even discarded.

Doctrine and Truth intersect at some points, but the circle of LDS doctrine is not the same as or even a subset of the circle of truth.

**Claim**: As a corollary to above, if a prophet speaks under the influence of the Holy Ghost, it is going to be God’s word and therefore be true. And we can know a prophet is inspired by the witness of the HG to us.

**Reality**: There are many examples where prophets claimed to be speaking under the power of the HG, and yet their teachings were later rejected. (There are also many examples where members knew those doctrines were true through spiritual means and such has since been disavowed) Furthermore, what we deem to be spiritual promptings are suspect and inconsistent.

A major problem with relying on feelings is that neither we nor a prophet can know for certain when the HG is inspiring us. Like Richard Bushman said regarding patriarchs, we are all just doing the best we can to try to recognize the voice of God.

The circular reasoning behind inspiration is apparent: The Church asks us to pray to know whether its teachings are true, but insists that the Spirit will only witness what the Church teaches to be true.

**Claim**: Doctrine, because it is eternal truth, is consistent throughout scripture and prophetic teachings.

Bruce R. McConkie – “The word of the Lord is truth, and no scripture ever contradicts another, nor is any inspired statement of any person out of harmony with an inspired statement of any other person.”

**Reality**: The doctrinal teachings of scripture are not consistent. Some passages speak of God as a spirit, others refer to him as having a body of flesh and bones. So to speak of any scriptural doctrine as though scripture is univocal is unsustainable. Example: Christ preaching to spirits in prison. https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.churchofjesuschrist.org%2Fstudy%2Fgeneral-conference%2F2001%2F10%2Fliving-in-the-fulness-of-times%3Flang%3Deng%26fbclid%3DIwAR0uarahrZrhOROjnQ9RInZBuVPRopqpfgomtIztFfINYbEQPMKafg_kuI4&h=AT2aY1Ss8bWLrHs9fzr7ohEfOayCfewGCUF2f_16RECYEGvNrKcrYMmVPV9MaCWLbi2w-i-5OzaGV9GkikfcgF3NJ4-QVpqPUH5acAtVkJL3qu7TJJP1hHMaMmmLpVH7bgyuWtDVg1fKzGbWbwk

**Claim**: Doctrine, because it is eternal truth, never changes over time, and the same doctrines taught today were taught to Adam and the other ancient prophets.

a.) “Those who observe us say that we are moving into the mainstream of religion. We are not changing. The world’s perception of us is changing. We teach the same doctrine. We have the same organization.” – Gordon B. Hinckley **Reality**: Many doctrines have changed over time. In fact, as shown in my book, there isn’t a single major doctrine of the Church that hasn’t changed with time, especially if we go back to biblical times.

The doctrinal teachings of the Bible are significantly different from those taught in the Church today, including the nature of God, preexistence, the Fall and nature of man, the afterlife, ordinances of salvation, etc.

When a doctrinal change occurs, Church leaders might give one or more of the following explanations to camouflage the change, so it appears that no change has occurred: (1) the doctrine has simply broadened, (2) we have always taught it this way, (3) prior prophets were speaking as men, or (4) what changed was a policy, not a doctrine.. AND (4) IT ISN’T A CHANGE; IT IS A CLARIFICATION. (RFM)

In cases where a new doctrine is introduced that is unsupported by or contradicts the Bible, the assertion is sometimes made that it is because it was altered or removed by the great and abominable church. Biblical scholarship has shown, however, that the Bible (both Old and NT) has been passed down with reasonable integrity and that there is no major loss or change from the oldest extant texts.

Note: The fact that the Church defines Doctrine as eternal, unchanging truth makes one wonder if the Church has any doctrines at all, since virtually all of its doctrines have undergone change. Perhaps the Church should either use a different term or redefine what doctrine means.

**Claim**: Doctrinal development (we can’t call it change) always results in progressively better doctrines. And thus God leads us towards greater light and knowledge.

Joseph Fielding Smith – “It is true that a divine revelation admits of no change, but it may admit of additional knowledge or development and information….His word to man comes in steps, piecemeal, as his servants are prepared to receive it. But there will be no conflict between the part first revealed, and the latter part revealed, they will harmonize.“ Joseph Fielding Smith, Man: His Origin and Destiny, 470. My emphasis.470.

(This view is even held by LDS intellectuals such as Terryl Givens, Sam Brown, etc.)

**Reality**: There is no preordained path along which doctrine unfolds to a fullness of truth. Instead there were unforeseen twists and turns, zigs and zags, which could have led to radically different outcomes. It is only the particular random forces at play that caused each doctrine to turn out like it has so far.

For example the LDS doctrine of God’s nature reflected contemporary Christan ideas. Then the literalistic folk ideas encountered by JS resulted in God being given flesh and bones. Many of the teachings in the BoM (creation, eternal punishment, fate of those who die without knowledge of the gospel, second coming, etc.) also reflected contemporary ideas known to JS and were later modified as he became exposed to more literalistic and fringe religious ideas.

Other doctrines are simply quietly discarded (Lamanite identity, reasons for blacks being denied priesthood, Adam-God, Blood atonement, Polygamy necessary for exaltation, etc.)

As to whether doctrinal modification yields greater light and knowledge, we really have no way of knowing. Karen Armstrong wrote that religious ideas have “not evolved from one point and progressed in a linear fashion to a final conception. Scientific notions work like that but the ideas of art and religion do not.”

One could certainly argue that the priesthood ban and introduction of plural marriage were steps backward and not forward. To its credit, the church has discarded several of its doctrines which conflict with science, but only after years of pushing back and only when the scientific view had become irrefutable and widely accepted.

**Claim:** As promised in the 9th article of faith, we believe that God will continue to reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And trying to hold back the Lord from pouring knowledge on the Saints is like holding back the mighty Missouri river by sticking your hand in it.In recent years, and as part of the ongoing restoration of all things, the Lord has been especially active in rolling out new doctrines and expanding existing ones. Pres. Nelson – “If you think the Church has been fully restored, you’re just seeing the beginning. There is much more to come. … Wait till next year. And then the next year. Eat your vitamin pills. Get your rest. It’s going to be exciting.” Russell M. Nelson, in “Latter-day Saint Prophet, Wife and Apostle Share Insights of Global Ministry,” Oct. 30, 2018, newsroom.ChurchofJesusChrist.org.

**Reality:** The kinds of things that are being “restored” are all minor and pertain to procedural and organizational issues. There is little, if any, further light and knowledge on doctrinal matters. In fact, on doctrinal matters, there has actually been a roll back, so that we know less now then we did before.

Lamanite identity

age of the earth

time of the second coming and millennium

why blacks were denied the priesthood and temple blessings

the general geography of the BoM

that plural marriage was required for the highest exaltation

How the BoM was translated

Location of Garden of Eden

Adam-God

That we would become just like God and not only get our own world but create worlds of our own

Notice that these are all doctrines that history, science and cultural pressures have caused the church to rethink. More and more, the answer to questions for which we used to have answers for is, “We don’t know” or “we don’t teach that.” It was taught to us that having prophets meant we were continually receiving new truth which was added to what we have and the reality is that by having prophets we actually are reducing the number of things we are certain about and are pulling past doctrines off the truth cart. Hence by having prophets we know less and less compared to what we used to.

**Claim**: we can be certain about all of our claims regarding Church doctrine, because we have the testimony of scripture, modern prophets and witness of the Holy Ghost.

**Reality**: These claims don’t warrant the level of certainty that leaders often place on them and which lead members to blindly accept them without investigation. It isn’t that the Church makes so many claims about doctrine that is disturbing, but the certainty they place in these claims.

Consider Pres. Oak’s absolute certainty about gender being eternally determined and fixed in the recent April general conference, stating that it is “founded on irrevocable doctrine.” And this is a doctrine that isn’t found anywhere in the scriptures and collides with the lived experience of many.

A few years back Peter Enns wrote a great book called “the Sin of Certainty.” In my mind, that still remains the greatest roadblock to doctrinal progress in the Church. In spite of minor improvements, there is a long way to go. How long will it take before the church relaxes its position, for example, that “gender is eternal.”

C.) Conclusion: The doctrine of LDS doctrine is a set of highly questionable truth claims that renders all other doctrines suspect.

What is the future outlook for LDS doctrine? Are there any signs that Church leaders may be starting to recognize the unsustainability of these claims?

The post Mormonism LIVE: 082: Charley Harrell & Contemplating Mormon Doctrine appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 081: A Failure of the Priesthood** Jun 26, 2022
Aleesha Franklin, daughter of Ponzi-scheme magnate Gaylen Rust, returns to Mormonism LIVE to share her personal story of how a catastrophic failure of Priesthood Leadership, both local and general, led to her disaffection from the LDS Church

The post Mormonism LIVE: 081: A Failure of the Priesthood appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 080: The Patriarchal Blessing Connection** Jun 16, 2022
RFM and Bill take a look at Patriarchal Blessings looking at what these are and what they are not and even take a look at multiple Patriarchal Blessings from the same patriarchs attempting to untangle inspiration from the rote and mundane.

OVERVIEW AND ELDRED G. SMITH

Patriarchal Blessings are to declare lineage, and then to give direction, counsel and promise predicated on worthiness.

Patriarchs in every stake now; but the Church Patriarch Office has been done away with.

Brief Clip from Eldred G. Smith in 1976 General Conference so we can remember what it used to be like when we had a Church Patriarch.

We will also be talking more about him later.

ELDRED G. SMITH (April Gen Con 1976—Who is Jesus?

Emeritus General Authority

(6 Oct 1979 – 4 Apr 2013)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1976/04/who-is-jesus?lang=eng

TIME STAMP 0.00-0.24

Eldred was a frequent speaker in general conference, and spoke about patriarchal blessings but only before 1971 when they started putting up the general conference talks at the church’s website.

At least this gives a sample of what he sounded like.

OVERVIEW OF PATRIARCHAL BLESSINGS

Saints Unscripted with Patriarch on the Show!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzahqA5Ot9E

TIME STAMP 6.00-7.32

It is revelation from God; all the promises will be fulfilled; it is personal scripture to the recipient.

October 1986 General Conference—Thomas S. Monson—Second Counselor in First Presidency

YOUR PATRIARCHAL BLESSING: A LIAHONA OF LIGHT

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1986/10/your-patriarchal-blessing-a-liahona-of-light?lang=eng

TIME STAMP 5.40-6.27

Who is this man, this patriarch, through whom such seership and priesthood power flow? How is he called? The Council of the Twelve Apostles has special responsibility pertaining to the calling of such men. From my own experience I testify that patriarchs are called of God by prophecy. How else could our Heavenly Father reveal those to whom such prophetic powers are to be given? A patriarch holds an ordained office in the Melchizedek Priesthood. The patriarchal office, however, is one of blessing—not of administration.

NOTE: WHY IS IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE APOSTLES TO CALL A PATRIARCH WHEN IT IS DETERMINED BY LINEAGE?

NOTE: WHY DOES PRESIDENT MONSON FEEL COMPELLED TO ADD THE LANGUAGE, THAT THE PATRIARCHAL OFFICE IS ONE OF BLESSING, “NOT ONE OF ADMINISTRATION”?

PATRIARCHAL BLESSINGS NOT TO BE SHARED

Gospel Topics Essay on Church Website under “Patriarchal Blessings”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/patriarchal-blessings?lang=eng

Patriarchal blessings are sacred and personal. They may be shared with immediate family members, but should not be read aloud in public or read or interpreted by others. Not even the patriarch or bishop or branch president should interpret it.

BACK TO THOMAS S. MONSON TALK FROM 1986.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1986/10/your-patriarchal-blessing-a-liahona-of-light?lang=eng

TIME STAMP 10:13-11:14

A patriarchal blessing is a revelation to the recipient, even a white line down the middle of the road, to protect, inspire, and motivate activity and righteousness. A patriarchal blessing literally contains chapters from your book of eternal possibilities. I say eternal, for just as life is eternal, so is a patriarchal blessing. What may not come to fulfillment in this life may occur in the next. We do not govern God’s timetable. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isa. 55:8–9).

NOTE: WE ALREADY GET THE APOLOGETIC FOR WHEN PATRIARCHAL BLESSINGS DO NOT COME TO PASS.

TIME STAMP 11.14-12.49 (NOTE-WE ARE JUST GOING TO DO THE FIRST FOUR SENTENCES OF THIS NEXT QUOTE; ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS ESTABLISH THAT THE ISSUE OF BRIEF OR LENGTHY PBs IS ADDRESSED)

Your patriarchal blessing is yours and yours alone. It may be brief or lengthy, simple or profound. Length and language do not a patriarchal blessing make. It is the Spirit that conveys the true meaning. Your blessing is not to be folded neatly and tucked away. It is not to be framed or published. Rather, it is to be read. It is to be loved. It is to be followed. Your patriarchal blessing will see you through the darkest night. It will guide you through life’s dangers. (NOTE: ORIGINAL SAYS “IT WILL PROTECT YOU.”) Unlike the struggling bomber of yesteryear, lost in the desert wastes, the sands and storms of life will not destroy you on your eternal flight. Your patriarchal blessing is to you a personal Liahona to chart your course and guide your way.

NOTE: QUESTION ABOUT LENGTH OF PATRIARCHAL BLESSING OBLIQUELY ANSWERED; BECAUSE OF THE IDEA THAT A LONGER BLESSING IS A BETTER BLESSING.

PATRIARCHAL BLESSINGS DURING THE PRIESTHOOD BAN

Digest of the minutes of the meeting of the patriarchs of the church with the General Authorities

held in Barratt Hall, Salt Lake City, Utah, Saturday, October 11, 1958, at 8:00 A.M.

From Later Patriarchal Blessings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pgs 559-563.

Compiled by H. Michael Marquardt, published by The Smith-Pettit Foundation, Salt Lake City, 2012

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/PatriarchalBlessingRevelator/patriarchmeeting1958.php

Joseph Fielding Smith speaking

Now here is a problem which to me is serious. A patriarch gave a blessing to an individual who had Negro blood in his veins and said you are of the House of Israel and entitled to all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A Negro cannot hold the priesthood and not holding the priesthood they cannot, until the Lord removes the restriction, enter into the exaltation of the kingdom of God and that would not entitle them to all of the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is a very serious matter and we should be extremely careful to know the Lord is speaking to us because Negroes cannot receive the fullness. A Negro may come into the Church and we can do more for him than any other church on the face of the earth. If he is baptized and is faithful and true, he can enter the celestial kingdom, but he does not get exaltation, but as I understand it, the Lord will, in due time, remove the restrictions. Not in this world but the time will come, if the Negro receives the gospel and is true to the end, he may go to the celestial kingdom and when the right time comes the restrictions will be removed and he may receive all of the blessings. Now the reason as stated by President Brigham Young and some of the other brethren that the Negro cannot receive the priesthood is two fold. One is their own fault because of their attitude in the spirit world. They were not valiant for some cause which the Lord does not explain, and they were barred from receiving the priesthood but they were not barred from birth into this world, and were not denied the right to have a body. If he is faithful in his second estate, the time will come when these restrictions will be removed.

*****

We have a young man who joined the Church and there is a question as to his lineage. Is there any reason why they couldn’t call upon the patriarch to see if he could give it to them, to see whether or not they have colored blood?

A patriarch has the right to have inspiration in a case of that kind. In a case where there might be a person suspected of having Negro blood, but it is not certain, they could go to a patriarch. He has the right to inspiration. In such a case the bishop should have the right inspiration too. There are some cases where I suppose no one could tell but the Lord.

President James B. Faust gave 3/30/1980 BYU Talk on Patriarchal Blessings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZOCVWNqxqw

TIME STAMP 7.12-9.08

Elder Faust says that if not fulfilled in this life, will be fulfilled in the next

THEN gives example of his father’s patriarchal blessing that said he would be blessed with “many beautiful daughters,” but had five sons.

Moral—Even when the blessing doesn’t come to pass, it comes to pass.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

TIME STAMP 17.29-18.08

LINEAGE

Apologetic for why it is people in same family are of different tribes.

SPENCER W. KIMBALL ON REPETITIVE BLESSINGS

Digest of the minutes of the meeting of the patriarchs of the church with the General Authorities

held in Barratt Hall, Salt Lake City, Utah, Saturday, October 11, 1958, at 8:00 A.M.

From Later Patriarchal Blessings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pgs 559-563.

Compiled by H. Michael Marquardt, published by The Smith-Pettit Foundation, Salt Lake City, 2012

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/PatriarchalBlessingRevelator/patriarchmeeting1958.php

You would do well, since you have no counselors, if you took two or three of your blessings occasionally to your stake president and say, “Would you kindly glance over these blessings to see if you have any suggestions for me.” Sometimes we get in ruts. Sometimes when we give so many blessings, we use the same phraseology over and over until it has little meaning. Each blessing is individual; each person only receives one blessing in their lifetime; therefore you don’t give them routine. Every blessing is very special to that individual.

Patriarch Robert Patterson—BYU—2000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK6Ip8SMVl4

TIME STAMP 17.19-19.45

He goes over the main failsafes to patriarchal blessings; that just because a blessing isn’t stated, it doesn’t mean it won’t happen; and if a promise is stated, it doesn’t mean it will happen.

Talk about a rigged system!

“Unknown to me . . .” this from a patriarch! LOL!

Heads I win. Tails you lose.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 080: The Patriarchal Blessing Connection appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 079: Mormonism’s History of The Holy Garments** Jun 09, 2022
Bill & RFM take a look at Mormonism’s Holy Garments. We look at the history, doctrine, and disavowed theories and spiritual speculation around them. Are they a magical spiritual protection? Were they allowed to have their design changed? Must they be worn all day every day? What super secret sacred details will Bill and RFM uncover?

The post Mormonism LIVE: 079: Mormonism’s History of The Holy Garments appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 366: Ancient Temple Rites Restored & Critical Thinking Skills** Jun 06, 2022
*NOTE* This episode is best viewed on youtube at https://youtu.be/6KJqj6C-D5E
Bill Reel and Spencer Wright sit down to take a look at the Youtube Video “Ancient Temple Rites Restored” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u0l13wX57E ) to see if this apologetic perspective holds up. Did Joseph Smith make connections to the ancient world in ways that impose there must have been a divine connection or could the data be reconciled in other ways and perhaps even more rational ways.

The post Mormon Discussion: 366: Ancient Temple Rites Restored & Critical Thinking Skills appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 078: Mormon Affinity Fraud** Jun 02, 2022
RFM & Bill take a look at Affinity Fraud in Utah and that which seems to have a root in taking advantage of unhealthy boundaries of trust within Mormonism. Affinity Fraud is a type of investment fraud in which a con artist targets members of an identifiable group based on things such as race, age, religion, etc. The fraudster either is or pretends to be, a member of the group. Often the fraudster promotes a Ponzi or pyramid scheme. Mormons are taught to trust their leaders, those who have a bright countenance, those with the Priesthood, Those who seem to be successful at Church or in business, and Mormons over non-Mormons. These often have members of the Church being particularly vulnerable to such rackets

The post Mormonism LIVE: 078: Mormon Affinity Fraud appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 077: Jared Halverson & The Games Apologists Play** May 26, 2022
Bill and RFM review a handful of clips from LDS Apologist, Jared Halverson. The discussion revolves around the games apologists play. These often include creating a framework and solutions to problems that to the believer seem tenable but when closely examined often hinge on fallacies or irrational thinking. The Apologist sees creating plausibility as a win. But such ideas and frameworks for thinking are often full of holes and less than the most rational answer.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY9_bN7EFOc

https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/fix-your-faith-crisis-with-this-one-weird-trick/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 077: Jared Halverson & The Games Apologists Play appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 365: Switchpoint -Addressing Homelessness** May 25, 2022
Bill sits down with Carol Hollowell, founder and Executive Director of SwitchPoint. Switchpoint is a non-profit whose goal is to tackle homelessness and poverty throughout the state of Utah. They are doing this in dynamic ways that hitting the issue head on. Today we sit down and talk about the problem of homelessness in the state of Utah and cover what Switchpoint is doing to make a difference.
**RESOURCES:**
Switchpoint Website
Homelessness in Utah
**Facets of Switchpoint**

Shelter

Low income housing

Soup Kitchen

Thrift Store

Boutique

Pet daycare

Recovery Center

Domestic Violence Shelter

Childcare during non traditional hours

Community Supported Agriculture/Garden

Muffin Tops
**Ways You Can Help**
https://switchpointcrc.org/donations/monthlygiving/
https://switchpointcrc.org/in-kind-needs/
https://switchpointcrc.org/volunteer-2/
https://switchpointcrc.org/shop-amazon-smile/
https://switchpointcrc.org/planned-giving/

The post Mormon Discussion: 365: Switchpoint -Addressing Homelessness appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 076: “Get Rid of the Facsimiles!” says Faithful Mormon Scholar** May 19, 2022
Mormon Scholar Dan Vogel comes on the show once more to discuss last week’s episode of Mormonism LIVE as well as to discuss other new insights surrounding the Book of Abraham that seem to close the door on the “Missing Scroll Theory” and the Catalyst Theory”.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 076: “Get Rid of the Facsimiles!” says Faithful Mormon Scholar appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 364: The Pain & Struggle of a Mormon Faith Crisis** May 18, 2022
Bill Reel sits down with Author, Therapist, and friend; Cory Reese, to discuss what people in a Mormon Faith Crisis self report in terms of the struggle they are having and the things they wish their loved one understood. And we try to soften that hurt with some advice and understanding.

https://www.brightwaytherapy.com/

**RESOURCES:**

On the first day of my 8-Week Faith Transition Group, I asked participants
what issues they are struggling with the most that led to them seeking therapy.
Here were their responses:
 Losing community has been extremely difficult. Some friends, neighbors,
and family members don’t talk to me anymore.
 Debating whether or not to stay in the church to keep family happy.
 Struggling with appearances, pressure to be perfect, and no longer “looking
perfect” to extended family.
 Don’t know how to do simple things that the rest of the world knows how to
do like navigate alcohol use, and ordering coffee.
 How to deal with guilt-tripping and shaming from family.
 Need to learn how to set boundaries, because I’ve never learned how to in
the past.
 How to deal with emotional flooding from extended family.
 Figuring out how to redefine spirituality, and what spiritual experiences
from the past mean.
 Feeling like I will never be enough – recovering from purity culture.
 Struggling with how in the past, I’ve let other people determine my
worthiness, instead of knowing that I have unconditional worth.
 Toxic perfectionism. Both personally, and in my family, we were a mess on
the inside, but needed to look perfect on the outside.
 Dealing with the fact that I’m disappointing others.
 Learning how to be authentic.

On the last day of the Faith Transition Group, I asked participants what they
wish believing members knew about a faith crisis. Here were their responses:
 We absolutely did not leave because we want to sin.
 Leaving the church isn’t taking the easy way out. If you knew what I have
experienced, you’d realize that leaving the church is taking the gut-
wrenching way out.
 You aren’t far from one. (Faithful members may suddenly and unexpectedly
face a faith crisis themselves when they discover troubling aspects of church
history.)
 When you leave, it’s not that you’ve lost yourself. You’ve actually found
yourself.
 I wish they knew how much I want to talk about it. I want them to know
because I wish I knew five years ago.
 My faith crisis is a spiritual experience. It’s not about knowing all the
answers, it’s about being able to ask the questions.
 We are still the same people.
 I think it’s more accurate to say that the church is facing a “truth crisis”
instead of saying I’ve had a “faith crisis.”
 The threats and scare tactics we were told about what happens when you
leave are not accurate.
 I feel very alone and isolated. I’m not able to speak my truth, but I have to
listen to my family members speak their truth. It’s not safe for me to talk
about what my beliefs or what I’ve learned about the church, but it’s okay
for my family to repeatedly bear their testimony to me. We understand both
perspectives because we were once faithful members of the church, but they
can’t fully understand our perspective because they haven’t been there.
 The “angry ex-Mormon” comes from recognizing that we have experienced
trauma.
 I want to say “If you think it’s been hard for you, imagine how hard it’s been
for me becoming the disappointment of the family.”
 I want to be loved by my family. I don’t want to hear “God still loves you.” I
want to hear “I love you.”

The post Mormon Discussion: 364: The Pain & Struggle of a Mormon Faith Crisis appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism Live: 075: Fugate’s Kinderhook Fugazi** May 12, 2022
Bill and RFM tell the story of the Kinderhook Plates episode in Mormon history in Mormonism Live fashion. From original Documents to Conspiracy Theories to a honest transparent conversation around the facts. We discuss the history, the tests done to attempt to discern their dating and method of inscription, the Church’s commentary around them, and even their connection to the Book of Abraham. You won’t want to miss this! **A. The setup for the Kinderhook dig**

April 16th 1843 – Robert Wiley – excavation of Indian Burial- Kinderhook Illinois

Dream 3 nights in a row to dig there – Playing on Joseph Smith connection?

hired men to dig with him – shaft 10 feet down (RFM indicates that there are multiple reports of varying depths)

discovered skeleton and 6 bell shaped brass plates covered with symbols

One of the men was a Mormon Church member

**B.) Joseph hears reports (likely the mormon in the dig) and requests to see the plates**

Joseph Smith examines them

States he won’t translate them them until they are sent off to various Antiquarian Societies

“In any case, the translation for which hope had been expressed in the *Times and Seasons* did not appear. In a letter dated April 8, 1878, Wilbur Fugate recalled: “We understood Jo Smith said [the plates] would make a book of 1200 pages but he would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian society at Philadelphia, France, and England.”” They were sent and the answer was that there were no such Hieroglyphics known and if there ever had been, they had long since passed away. Then Smith began his translation”””

What would have been the timeframe to mail something to these antiquarian societies and to get a response back? Would he have mailed the plates? An impression sketch? We have one witness – years removed (The Fugate letter to a Mr. Cobb was written in 1878/1879)

There may have been a translation manuscript but if so it has been lost.

Folks are making tracing of the kinderhook plates in Smith’s possession

**C.) Joseph attempts some sort of translation**

Smith’s private secretary, William Clayton, recorded that upon receiving the plates, Smith sent for his “Hebrew Bible & Lexicon”, possibly suggesting that he might try to translate the plates by conventional means, rather than by use of a seer stone or direct revelation.

On 1 May 1843, Clayton wrote in his journal: and as published in multiple places, “I have seen 6 brass plates … covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. [Joseph Smith] has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth. Joseph Smith planned to translate the plates in their entirety. The editors of the Nauvoo Neighbor (apostles John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff), promised in a June 1843 article that “The contents of the plates, together with a Fac-simile of the same, will be published in the ‘Times and Seasons,’ as soon as the translation is completed.” Page from William Clayton Diary, with tracing of a plate, and Smith’s translation The History of the Church also states Smith said the following- “I have translated a portion of [the plates] and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.”

Joseph interaction with the plates was published as a broadside in the Times and Seasons (Images below)

**D.) What the Church and community had to say about the Kinderhook Moment** 1.) “Why does the circumstance of the plates recently found in a mound in Pike County, Ill., by Mr. Wiley, together with the ethnology and a thousand other things, go to prove the Book of Mormon true? – Ans. [Answer] Because it is true!” – Times and Seasons, v. 5, p. 406 2.) *“The new work which Jo. Is about to issue as a translation of these [Kinderhook] plates will be nothing more nor less than a sequel to the Book of Mormon…” –* Warsaw Signal, May 22, 1844 3.) *“The contents of the plates, together with a Facsimile of the same, will be published in the ‘Times and Seasons,’ as soon as the translation is completed.” –* The Nauvoo Neighbor, *June 1843*Sadly the translation portion of the story ends there. Had JS finished this project it would have been as strong an evidence as any that he was a fraud. But he gets a sentence or two in and stops….. For some strange reason. But the story itself still has some telling to be told

The New York herald. [volume], May 30, 1843, Image 2

**E.) The moment the accusation of a scam is suggested**

April 25, 1856, W. P. Harris, who was one of the nine witnesses to the discovery of the plates, wrote a letter in which he stated that the plates were not genuine: “…I was present with a number at or near Kinderhook and helped to dig at the time the plates were found… I… made an honest affidavit to the same…. since that time, Bridge Whitten said to me that he cut and prepared the plates and he… and R. Wiley engraved them themselves…. Wilbourn Fugit appeared to be the chief, with R. Wiley and B. Whitten.” (The Book of Mormon?, by James D. Bales, pp. 95-96)

James T. Cobb, step-son of Brigham Young, wrote to Wilber Fugate in 1879 (1878?). Fugate responds: “I received your letter in regard to those plates, and will say answer they are a humbug, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitten, and myself. We read in Pratt’s prophecy (a missionary tract written by Parley P Pratt) that ‘truth would spring up out of the earth.’ We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke… Bridge Whitten cut them [the plates] out some pieces of copper Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates.”

Fugate wrote of their creation: “Bridge Whitton cut them (the plates) out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with rust.”

**F.) Church complicates matters by altering the historical record and withholding records back**

History of The Church

Adding to the mess was the official publication History of the Church written and complied by several individuals who essentially put words into Joseph Smith’s mouth, after he was dead, and not all of what they wrote was factual. The LDS Church perceived this magnificent translation episode to be so important that, when it tasked B.H. Roberts with preparing its foremost publication in 1930, History of the Church, it converted Clayton’s words into Joseph’s first-person voice. The Church dedicated eight valuable pages to sharing the story of the Kinderhook plates, likely at least in part, because the story bolstered the otherwise unsupported notion that inscribing Egyptian characters onto thin metal plates was a valid method of recordkeeping in the ancient Americas.

Historian D. Michael Quinn explained, “Joseph Smith’s autobiographical “History” was written in large part after his death by clerks and “historians” who transformed third-person accounts by others than Joseph Smith into first-person autobiography of Joseph Smith, and that between the first serialized publication of the history D Michael Quinn D Michael Quinn (1840s-1860s) and the seven-volume edition of the History of the Church in the twentieth century, there have been thousands of deletions and additions not noted in the text or footnotes. This is certainly all true, and as an historian I regret the confusion that such editorial practices have caused. Nevertheless, until quite recently official LDS history was written by men (often of limited education) who were not trained in methods of editing and history.”

**G.) A Kinderhook plate surfaces**

In 1920 a surviving plate from the set turned up at the Chicago Historical Society.

In 1845, a Dr. Joseph Nash McDowell established a college of medicine in St. Louis. The college had a museum of natural history that contained 3,000 items, among them “Antiquities, &c. of our country.” W. P. Harris, in his letter of 1855, said he had heard from a fellow physician “that R Wiley graduated [from the college] since finding the plates … and that Dr. Professor McDowell on surgery has the plates now in his office.” It is now apparent that Wiley either sold or gave the Kinderhook plates to McDowell for the museum. McDowell was a southern sympathizer who left St. Louis to serve the Confederacy as a physician during the Civil War. This made him very unpopular in St. Louis, and when the U.S. Army seized his college in 1861 for use as a prison, the 2nd Iowa Reserve Regiment sacked it.7 The Chicago Historical Society received one of the plates in 1920 as a gift from Charles F. Gunther, a noted collector of historical artifacts. Gunther had acquired it on 15 July 1889 from F. C. A. Richardson, M.D. (a member of both the St. Louis and the Chicago Academies of Science). Richardson in turn received it from a Dr. J. W. McDowell (not the same man as Dr. Joseph Nash McDowell), who got it from a soldier in the 2nd Iowa Reserve Regiment.

**H.) The Plate is finally allowed to be tested**

The “conclusive” tests in 1953 – September 1962 improvement era ( Page 22 & 58 & 60 & 62, notice page 20 first )

In 1953 it was examined by two engravers who made an affidavit stating that “to the best of our knowledge this Plate was engraved with a pointed instrument and not etched with acid”

Notice the Time Lapse between when it is discovered to be a fraud 1879, when a plate turns up 1920, and when the Church on some level acknowledges the critic’s claim suggesting it is a fraud in 1962. Then notice the Apologetics around it. And notice their conclusion that their experts have determined it to be an engraving and hence the Kinderhook plates are still evidence of JS’s divine mission (Sunken Cost).

1966 First Test concluding it was a modern reproduction confirming Fugate’s claim https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/05/Report-of-Phys-Study-of-KH-Plate-5.pdf

A much more rigorous study of the Chicago plate was organized in 1969 by Dr. Paul Cheesman of Brigham Young University. He secured permission from the Chicago Historical Society to bring the plate to BYU for exhaustive non-destructive testing—that is, analytical tests not involving actual damage to the plate. The results of these tests were to be compared with previous tests performed in 1960 and 1966. The plate was examined by physicists, engravers, a jeweler, a metalworker, and several photographers, with mixed results. The physicists concluded that the plate was acid-etched and of non-ancient brass; the others could not agree whether it was etched, engraved, or both. Dr. Cheesman concluded: “It appears we need to have a destructive analysis for further confirmation. Much more testing needs to be done.”

Finally the actual “Conclusive Test” the church accepts as true

Stanley B Kimball – There the matter rested until 1980, when I had the good fortune to secure permission from the Chicago Historical Society for the recommended destructive tests. These tests, involving some very sophisticated analytical techniques, were performed by Professor D. Lynn Johnson of the Department of Materials Science and Engineering at Northwestern University. “A recent electronic and chemical analysis of a metal plate… brought in 1843 to the Prophet Joseph Smith… appears to solve a previously unanswered question in Church history, helping to further evidence that the plate is what its producers later said it was – a nineteenth-century attempt to lure Joseph Smith into making a translation of ancient-looking characters that had been etched into the plates…. As a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate… is not of ancient origin…. the plate was etched with acid; and as Paul Cheesman and other scholars have pointed out, ancient inhabitants would probably have engraved the plates rather than etched them with acid. Secondly, we concluded that the plate was made from a true brass alloy (copper and zinc) typical of the mid nineteenth century: whereas the ‘brass’ of ancient times was actually bronze, an alloy of copper and tin.” – Stanley P. Kimball, Mormon scholar, The Ensign, Aug. 1981, pp. 66-70

**I.) The Fallout**

“The time has come to admit that the Kinderhook plate incident of 1843 was a light-hearted, heavy-handed, frontier-style prank, or ‘joke’ as the perpetrators themselves called it.” – Stanley P. Kimball, Mormon scholar, The Mormon Association Newsletter, June 1981

So the plates were in fact a fraud. And now the Church finally in 1981 admits they had been played. Kinderhook Plates Brought to Joseph Smith Appear to Be a Nineteenth-Century Hoax By Stanley B. Kimball

**J.) Replica**

Adam Worthington couldn’t say for certain how long it took, since he worked on them in his free time. Probably a week? “I ordered 20 gauge brass and traced the outline in sharpie. I cut them out with a Dremel cut off wheel and sanded the edges to remove burrs. Then I traced the symbols in pencil and engraved them with a small diamond bit. I drilled out the hole at the top, and soldered a brass ring around them to keep them together. The original ring was made of wire that had rusted, so the brass ring is not accurate. They also should have been etched with nitric acid, but I thought engraving would be easier and less messy”

**K.) Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst McGee and the BOA GAEL (We can Stop blaming William Clayton**)

. “The gentlemen15 who found them were / unconnected with this church but have brought them to Joseph / Smith for examination & translation a large number of Citizens / here have seen them and compared the characters with / those on the Egyptian papyrus which is now in this / city. I have no time for particulars but you will hear more soon on this subject. I must now notice your letter. / 2 of the 3 witnesses to the book of Mormon have been cast off / from the church for some misconduct but have never / denied their testimony. we hope they will be restored again / soon. The other (Martin Harris) is still in the church” – Parley P. and Orson Pratt’s May 7th 1843 Letter to John Van Cott (<– LINK)

Analysis from historians Mark Ashurst-McGee and Don Bradley indicate that the translated “portion” mentioned by William Clayton and Parley P. Pratt comes from a single “boat-shaped” character in the Egyptian Alphabet (a vaguely similar character appears on one of the Kinderhook Plates facsimiles).

RFM – Does not the very nature of Joseph Smith using the GAEL to translate the Kinderhook plates run counter to the apologetics surrounding the Book of Abraham held by John Gee and Kerry Muhlstein?

**L.) Reasons for not Translating them**

The report never came back from the antiquities societies? “In any case, the translation for which hope had been expressed in the *Times and Seasons* did not appear. In a letter dated April 8, 1878, Wilbur Fugate recalled: “We understood Jo Smith said [the plates] would make a book of 1200 pages but he would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian society at Philadelphia, France, and England.””

He was deeply busy with other things The evidence from Joseph Smith’s journal for early May 1843 indicates that, “whatever JS initially thought about the plates, he soon lost interest in them.” The numerous entries in Joseph’s journal indicate that Joseph was busy entertaining several guests, holding court, attending business and religious meetings, overseeing economic transactions, and much more—but only one brief mention of the Kinderhook Plates is made. Some evidence even suggests Joseph wanted them examined by the Antiquarian Society of Philadelphia, so perhaps Joseph even suspected their fraudulence or had concluded that they were not religiously significant.

Joseph’s Death – If in fact he did send off some sort of representation of the plates to various antiquity societies, it would have taken months to get responses back and Joseph Smith died in June 1844

RFM & Bill- If in fact the Book of Mormon was a 19th Century Production, Joseph Smith of course would know that. Any surfacing of metal plates with etchings would have had his suspicion because he has literally written the book on this trick. Sending them off to the Antiquity Socities is another hint at his suspicion that these weren’t ancient. (A Person w/ real metal plates with writing is more likely to believe another set of plates with writing. A person who created a fake story and even set of plates with writing is going to be extremely suspicious of another set of plates surfacing. If he wonders “Are these real and in a language already known?” He can’t afford to translate them under that condition. If he suspects “Are they a scam setup to make me fail?” He can’t afford to translate them under that condition. What if he doesn’t translate at all? Doesn’t he have a gift? He perhaps feels he can’t leave them alone either. He does the only thing he can do. Give them the smallest sort of partial translation as possible and hinge it on a symbol that is real and within a legitimate document that can’t be translated outside of the translation you have provided.

At the End of the Show Don Bradley calls in and seems dumbfounded when asked to reconcile the problem after RFM and Bill decimate the two strongest theories that reconcile the BOA from a faithful perspective. and the Graphic below is the key piece to the catastrophic end of the Catalyst Theory as they demonstrate Joseph Smith’s reliance on a symbol in the Papyrus of Amenhotep which is the “Mouth” Symbol used in both the brief partial Kinderhook Translation as well as the Grammar and Alphabet of Egyptian Language AKA the GAEL connected to the Book of Abraham Sheet from the Papyrus of Amenhotepca. 1427–1390 B.C. **RESOURCES:** http://www.rickgrunder.com/VanNorman/Kinderhook%20Broadside/kinderhook.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_plates https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/kinderhook-plates?lang=eng https://mormonstories.org/truth-claims/the-books/kinderhook-plates/ https://rsc.byu.edu/no-weapon-shall-prosper/did-joseph-smith-translate-kinderhook-plates https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-do-the-kinderhook-plates-reveal-about-joseph-smiths-gift-of-translation http://www.mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/what-do-the-kinderhook-plates-reveal-about-joseph-smith/ https://archive.org/details/mss78theoschroederapril8th1878/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/improvementera6509unse/page/n21/mode/2up https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/05/Report-of-Phys-Study-of-KH-Plate-5.pdf https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/e29df3b1-91f1-46f7-8882-a3b79e4f3662/0/0 https://cesletter.org/debunking-fairmormon/kinderhook-plates.html
The post Mormonism Live: 075: Fugate’s Kinderhook Fugazi appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 074: Sandra Tanner – Queen of the Anti-Mormons** May 05, 2022
RFM and Bill sit down with Sandra Tanner, a well known writer and researcher, on the critical side of Mormonism. We sit down with Sandra to discuss her impact within Mormonism and to touch on a few stories that viewers may find interesting.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 074: Sandra Tanner – Queen of the Anti-Mormons appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 073: Lying For The Lord** Apr 28, 2022
In this week’s episode, Bill and RFM take a look at instances in Mormon History where LDS Leadership seem to be giving a stamp of approval to Leaders and Members to be dishonest, to lie, and to deceive. Once we understand the instruction and permissions given to be dishonest we can going forward see their deceptions and dishonesty within greater context.

RESOURCES:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng

http://www.mormonthink.com/files/lying-for-lord-ken-clark.pdf

http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm

https://proveallthingsholdfasttogood.wordpress.com/the-hiding-of-church-history/

http://packham.n4m.org/lying.htm

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lying%20for%20the%20lord

https://beggarsbread.org/2017/10/29/lying-for-the-lord-a-grassroots-tale/

https://youtu.be/kEeur0emWvE

https://digitalcommons.law.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=clarkmemorandum#page=15

https://exploringmormonism.com/a-timeline-of-thought-control/

https://proveallthingsholdfasttogood.wordpress.com/the-hiding-of-church-history/

http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/lying_for_the_lord.pdf

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1986/01/truth-and-more?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-mantle-is-far-far-greater-than-the-intellect?lang=eng

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/issues/V31N03.pdf

https://proveallthingsholdfasttogood.wordpress.com/the-hiding-of-church-history/

https://mi.byu.edu/truth-in-church-history-excerpts-from-the-religious-educators-qa-with-elder-steven-snow/

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-oaks-interview-transcript-from-pbs-documentary

https://youtu.be/4hAL-qLOISs?t=1636

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taft-benson/gods-hand-nations-history/

https://books.google.com/books?id=ytIbMwyenKYC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=%22training+I+have+had+from+those+over+me%22+mathias+cowley&source=bl&ots=Oodm2kHqQz&sig=ACfU3U2zLyIJRpeiKsd4cTuLZsC9dq7rng&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwja9dr3jLL3AhUGJkQIHXHAChIQ6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=%22training%20I%20have%20had%20from%20those%20over%20me%22%20mathias%20cowley&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=ytIbMwyenKYC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=%22We+have+always+been+taught+that+when+the+brethren+were+in+a+tight+place+that+it+would+not+be+amiss+to+lie+to+help+them+out%22+mathias+cowley&source=bl&ots=Oodm2kIiRF&sig=ACfU3U2xlBEmLonbWVr3InNbDCYWS402_g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhwuzejbL3AhX1JkQIHQqgB6YQ6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=%22We%20have%20always%20been%20taught%20that%20when%20the%20brethren%20were%20in%20a%20tight%20place%20that%20it%20would%20not%20be%20amiss%20to%20lie%20to%20help%20them%20out%22%20mathias%20cowley&f=false

https://youtu.be/JxyiHLg59ks?t=1

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/04/Gospel-Teachings-About-Lying.pdf

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng

The post Mormonism LIVE: 073: Lying For The Lord appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 072: Neophytes & Lamanites In The Book of Mormon** Apr 21, 2022
We sit down with American anthropologist and Author, Thomas Murphy to discuss the Book of Mormon within the context of Native American History. We explore the legends and history of the indigenous people to see if there are connections there that help us examine the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the claims of Mormonism surrounding its imposition of Lamanites

The post Mormonism LIVE: 072: Neophytes & Lamanites In The Book of Mormon appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 363: Signs, Tokens & Penalties – The LDS Mormon Temple Ceremony** Apr 15, 2022
Today we take a look at the connections between Masonry and Mormon rituals. We explore what the prophet Joseph Smith claimed about the Temple Endowment, and how the Modern Church and its apologists frame the endowment today. We look at the changes that have happened overtime with an emphasis on the penalty oaths and signs with a focus on recognizing those penalties are in some ways still present within the temple endowment.

RESOURCES:

http://www.ldsendowment.org/index.html

http://www.ldsendowment.org/masonry.html

http://www.ldsendowment.org/timeline.html

https://mit.irr.org/mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony

https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/pre-1990-temple-endowment/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45228107?seq=1

https://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/dun03.htm

http://www.ldsendowment.org/1931.html

http://www.rickgrunder.com/Newspapers%20for%20Sale/lucindaharris.htm

The post Mormon Discussion: 363: Signs, Tokens & Penalties – The LDS Mormon Temple Ceremony appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 362: The LDS Church’s 2021 Membership Statistical Report** Apr 15, 2022
Mormon Discussion: 362: The LDS Church’s 2021 Membership Statistical Report Bill takes a look at the 2021 membership numbers the LDS Church released coinciding with the April 2022 General Conference to examine what the numbers say & what they don’t say, and if they can be trusted.

The post Mormon Discussion: 362: The LDS Church’s 2021 Membership Statistical Report appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 071: Nephi & Judith – Beheadings & other Similarities** Apr 14, 2022
Bill and RFM dive into the apocryphal book of Judith and point out the many similarities between that apocryphal story and the Book of Mormon’s story about Nephi and his encounter and eventual beheading of Laban.
RESOURCES:
https://debunking-cesletter.com/book-of-mormon-1/view-of-the-hebrews-joseph-smith-sr-dream/
http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296
https://rsc.byu.edu/doctrine-covenants-revelations-context/joseph-smith-emanuel-swedenborg-section-76-importance-bible
https://i.redd.it/uckai9n1qyn81.jpg
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-91-the-apocrypha?lang=eng
https://www.ksl.com/article/11790001/joseph-smith-family-bible-goes-on-sale

https://i.redd.it/71fpzs9h69x01.png
https://www.slideshare.net/canadaduane/the-late-war-the-book-of-mormon-and-big-data
http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_create_the_story_of_Nephi_and_Laban_by_plagiarizing_concepts_and_phrases_from_the_story_of_Judith_and_Holofernes_in_the_Apocrypha%3F
https://ebible.org/pdf/eng-kjv/eng-kjv_JDT.pdf

The post Mormonism LIVE: 071: Nephi & Judith – Beheadings & other Similarities appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 070: Critical Scholarship and Book of Abraham Historicity** Apr 07, 2022
RFM and Bill sit down once again with Dan Vogel and Brent Metcalfe to examine the problems with the Book of Abraham as a translation of an ancient document in a sacred text for Mormonism generally and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically. Dan and Brent share their scholarship and help us grasp some of the messiness around this issue.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 070: Critical Scholarship and Book of Abraham Historicity appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 069: Gaslighting From Mormon Leadership** Mar 31, 2022
Bill Reel and RFM will dive into Mormon Gaslighting. They will discuss the psychology of gaslighting, discuss its origin, and then delve into a handful of examples among the hundreds that could be explored and conclude discussing the harm that comes to the one being gaslit.

RESOURCES:

https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Gaslighting-Examples.pdf

Movie Gaslight – https://youtu.be/UYmtzaHwCKo?t=828

Elder Ballard not knowing where Baptism invitations after the first discussion came from – https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2019-06-26/president-ballard-said-missionaries-shouldnt-invite-people-to-be-baptized-without-feeling-the-spirit-heres-why-701

Where Baptism invitations after the first discussion came from – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36617_eng.pdf

Mormons not getting their own planet – https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnews-ca.churchofjesuschrist.org%2Farticle%2Fmormonism-101-faq%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0V8Q2Ti4xp1oUJ5-xDnOrGE5oBxaP43_fLetCr31Z1Qc5n3Rhm0KlDuds&h=AT3P_IMMUNCvo18LtNAbs3zw8i7Y2LAgJk_b9y80Mw8AyOhEtDsWgZYsVoDVIM1CKJYoiKjPq3FWgcb1yhFOokdzL3D9Nh2brA5WfewMZSXAHX4UFB4loc4s4ob1hdz4XO0

Mormons getting their own planet – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/broadcasts/article/christmas-devotional/2018/12/four-gifts-that-jesus-christ-offers-to-you?lang=eng

Mormons getting their own planet – https://youtu.be/sd52qp2mxC8?t=941

Mormons getting their own planet – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/31129_eng.pdf

Ronald Poelman 1984 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qIr30dtCvo

Mormonism has never been racist – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2000/09/no-more-strangers?lang=eng

Mormonism’s Racism – https://www.mormonstories.org/other/Lowry_Nelson_1st_Presidency_Exchange.pdf

Mormonism’s Racism – https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_racial_issues/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Statements#1949

Mormonism’s Racism – https://missedinsunday.com/memes/race/pure-blood/

Mormonism’s Racism – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism

Elder Oaks laughing about hiding the 1832 account and Elder Ballard saying we never hid anything – https://youtu.be/Uj2VWhuW50w?t=2849

Weird Alma Song Gaslighting – https://weirdalma.bandcamp.com/track/gaslighting

Spencer Kimball Gaslighting about Adam-God Doctrine – https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory?fbclid=IwAR2v60FTK6jT1Imxro1VKvhPXOx8e2HXftteH2t5iOlk2_TkRbxaxTrbFCE

Bruce R McConkie Gaslighting regarding Adam-God – https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/bruce-r-mcconkie-misled-on-adam-god/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 069: Gaslighting From Mormon Leadership appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Guest Episode: Bill Reel & David Peck – Religion & Spirituality** Mar 29, 2022
David Peck, host of the podcast “Of Saints and Sufis” sits down with Bill Reel to explore the juxtaposition of Religion & Spirituality. They dive into what it means for Bill to describe himself as an atheist and a mystic and they then explore where Religion seems to miss the mark defining the undefinable while offering what Spirituality does in order to point the person to their own inner workings and own mystical experiences and their own interpretation of those experiences.

The post Guest Episode: Bill Reel & David Peck – Religion & Spirituality appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 068: Out of Africa** Mar 24, 2022
RFM and Bill Reel sit down with special guests to discuss what The LDS Church looks like in Africa and how its membership upon this continent is affected uniquely.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 068: Out of Africa appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 067: nuancehoe Carah Burrell** Mar 17, 2022
TikToker under name “nuancehoe”. In our conversation we delve into Prophets, Evolution, the argument against there being free will, and if time we hope to delve into dogma as debated by Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson

**Resources:**

The post Mormonism LIVE: 067: nuancehoe Carah Burrell appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 066: David Bokovoy – Sex, Eden and The Family** Mar 10, 2022
RFM and Bill sit down with David Bokovoy and with a title like that, who knows here the conversation might go………… David Bokovoy holds a PhD in Hebrew Bible and the Ancient Near East and an MA in Near Eastern and Judaic Studies both from Brandeis University. He received his BA from Brigham Young University, majoring in History and minoring in Near Eastern Studies. In addition to his work in Mormon studies, David has published articles on the Hebrew Bible in a variety of academic venues including the Journal of Biblical Literature, Vetus Testamentum, Studies in the Bible and Antiquity, and theFARMS Review. He is the co-author of the book Testaments: Links Between the Book of Mormon and the Hebrew Bible.
**RESOURCES:**
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02955/full

https://theconversation.com/homosexuality-may-have-evolved-for-social-not-sexual-reasons-128123

https://www.amazon.com/Mating-in-Captivity-Esther-Perel-audiobook/dp/B000IB0EYI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=37GYYI3COZDM6&keywords=mating+captivity&qid=1646880888&sprefix=mating+cap%2Caps%2C127&sr=8-1

The post Mormonism LIVE: 066: David Bokovoy – Sex, Eden and The Family appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 065: Mormonism & The 30,000 Foot View** Mar 03, 2022
What happens when rather than get in close to the sticky issues of Mormonism you step back? In fact step back so far as to see the 30,000 foot view and look at what Mormonism has standing in the way of its truth claims. And how such speaks to just how reasonable and rational it is to release one’s belief in the faith and to step away having allowed oneself to be a rational logical critical thinking human being. What happens when rather than get in close to the sticky issues of Mormonism you step back? In fact step back so far as to see the 30,000 foot view and look at what Mormonism has standing in the way of its truth claims. And how such speaks to just how reasonable and rational it is to release one’s belief in the faith and to step away having allowed oneself to be a rational logical critical thinking human being.

Scriptural Issues

Book of Mormon 19th Century Material

Book of Mormon Anachronisms

Plagiarism from New Testament

Book of Abraham issues

Bible Translation plagiarized from Adam Clarke’s commentary

Theological changes in canon over time

2nd and 3rd Isaiah

Spiritual Manifestation Issue

Moroni vs Nephi

First Vision Discrepancies

Seeing the Cumorah Cave in Palmyra New York in spite of being a clean hill

Peter James and John PH restoration added late

Moroni blessing Manti

Brigham Young Transfiguration

Issues with Joseph Smith’s Character

Lying about polygamy to Emma and others

Manipulating Lucy Walker

Pattern of approaching girls or young women in his home for intimate relationships (Lucy Walker, Fanny Alger, Partridge Sisters, Lawrence Sisters)

Polyandry

Nancy Rigdon & The Happiness Letter

Underage girls (two 14 year olds, two 16 year olds, two 17 year olds)

Treasure Digging

Other financial frauds: Kirtland anti-bank, land issues, bad loans

Science and Critical Thinking

Great Flood

Tower of Babel

Shiz rises after head cut off

2000 stripling warriors in a battle with a more experienced larger military force and not a single soul was lost not to the battle and not to infection afterwards inspite of many fainting from bloodloss

Battles in the Millions around Cumorah and what it takes to have military engagement that large

Moroni blessing Manti

Trans Oceanic Voyage

Lamanite DNA

Age of the earth & Evolution

Church Administration

Second Anointings

100’s of Billions of dollars saved in investments rather than solving world problems

Nepotism

Leaders are insulated and promote yes men

Well paid Leaders

SCMC

Past Prophetic Deception

Adam God Doctrine

Racial Curse and Racial Valiancy

Joseph Smith mock wedding with Partridge Sisters

Treasure Digging

Mountain Meadows (Brigham’s destruction of the marker and lying about it and blaming the Native Americans)

1890, 1904 Manifesto

1933 lying about the 1886 John Taylor Revelation

Modern Prophetic Deception

Elder Holland (BBC Interview, Story about missionary meeting his brother, Double Digit Stake Creation every week of our lives)

Paul Dunn

President Nelson (Flight of Death, Zimbabwe, Lady in the hat)

Bruce R McConkie lying about Brigham teaching Adam God

Elder Oaks lying about Electroshock Therapy at BYU under his presidency

Whitewashing and carefully worded denials of the Gospel Topic Essays

Tom Monson Jr

Quinton Cook – Hospital

Gordon B Hinkley “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it”

Ronald Poelman and the re-do of his conference talk

False or embellished Faith Promoting stories

Seagulls and Crickets

Sweetwater Crossing

Holland, Nelson yarn stretchers

Brigham Young Transfiguration

Whale of a tale

Wilfor Woodruff Founding Fathers

Lorenzo Snow’s Jesus Visitation

Trauma Placed On Members

Temple (Sexism, Objectifying Women, Penalties)

One on One interviews with children and others by an untrained clergy

“Worthiness” interviews

Toxic Perfectionism

Patriarchy Marginalizing women

Marginalization of people of color

Destruction of idiginous people’s identity

“Indian Placement Program”

Diminishing those who lose faith with labels (chaff, lazy, sinful)

Not having a single good story about those who leave

Gaslighting people continuously regarding their history

All the harm with polygamy

Claiming Tithing will get you out of Poverty

Social Issues

Women have lesser place in mortality and in heaven

Church still currently maintains that God actually sorted people via their skin color (Be One Celebration)

Church imposes significant harm on LGBT members

Civil Rights was Communism

Not Proactive or reactive on Sexual Abuse

People who stop believing are less than and believers should stay at distance

Always 30-40 years late on almost every social issue in spite of being led by Prophets, Seers, and Revelators

Global/government influences: Defeating ERA, Prop 8, LDS Senator votes for Iraqi War “where boots go, missionaries follow,” the two LDS men (one a Bishop) part of US Govt torture program, cultural appropriation/erasure among Native Americans, Polynesians etc, lobbying against church clergy being mandatory reporters, attempt to make Utah a two-party recording consent state, etc

Stop here and discuss how every facet of Mormonism’s truth claims when dealt with logically are in favor of the critic. That when understood collectively, the only fall back Mormonism has is Spiritual Testimony. That in spite of all the issues, I still believe because I know by the Holy Ghost that it is true. Except the Holy Ghost doesn’t get a free pass

Ineffectiveness of the Holy Ghost as a tool to convey truth

Elevation Emotion

Illusory Truth Effect

Taking Seriously the Spiritual experiences of those outside your faith

How completely wrong past leaders were in spite of their “Knowing”

How wrong members have been at past times holding views with certainty when such views have been abandoned or disavowed

Holy Ghost can be tested and it does no better than no Holy Ghost

Leaders have been deceived

members have been deceived

And as if that isn’t enough if you apply the same critical thinking to Jesus of Nazareth you end up having another pillar of challenges that hits at the truth of Mormonism (Though I admit also all of Christianity)

Historical Jesus

Dating of New Testament Authors

Wrestling with New Testament gospel contradictions

Understanding the prevalent views of Biblical Criticism

How myths are created (Sapiens)

How stories easily get embellished (compare with Mormonism)

How much easier in an age of unverifiable history When supernatural happens and when it doesn’t Issues with the nativity narrative

BONUS ROUND (Not Covered In Episode)

Immoral, harmful beliefs taught as moral and good.

Problems with the concept of “fallen” man (unnecessary guilt and/or lack of personal accountability)

Idolizing parricide as act of “love” and “loyalty” (God + Abraham)

Justifying God’s abusive and narcissistic behaviors as “love”

Forgiveness expected for misbehaving leaders “give Brother Joseph a break”

Lack of empathy/blame for victims

Theological: the Flood, Hell for non-believers, misfortune as punishment (LGBTQ, apostates, etc)

Local/current: blaming SA victims, clergy abuse victims, etc

Internal morality given to God or those perceived to speak for him

Biblical atrocities excused, even genocide

Gives space for modern atrocities to be committed/accepted (even victims sometimes)

Early and modern polygamy/underage rape/trafficking

Modern spouse/child abuse

Murder, theft, imprisonment of apostates/defectors/outsiders (Oliver Cowdery, Danites, Lori Vallow/Chad Daybell)

Obligations to support systems that harm self/others (sexism, Prop 8, etc)

Personal choices/freedoms overridden in favor of the group ideals

The post Mormonism LIVE: 065: Mormonism & The 30,000 Foot View appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 064: The Role of Women In The Church** Feb 24, 2022
Mormonism LIVE: 064: The Role of Women In The Church

RFM and Bill dive into the issue of Women in the Church and their role. What does the Church want women to think and believe and what does the system of Mormonism actually tell Women about their place within the Church? We have a guest on Nicole, who along with Maven share their personal journey navigating the hurtful and unhealthy sexist messaging of the LDS Church.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 064: The Role of Women In The Church appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Bill Reel – Executive Director of Mormon Discussion Inc. Interviewed by 21st Century Saints** Feb 24, 2022
Bill Reel, Executive Director of Mormon Discussion Inc., was interviewed on 2.233.22 on 21st Century Saints. Check them out at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLESyNtVAdYF52HVt5Cu-Ew
This interview can be watched from there channel here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVzaIc7oDD8
Please Subscribe to our friends across the waters. They do great work, please consider supporting them.

The post Bill Reel – Executive Director of Mormon Discussion Inc. Interviewed by 21st Century Saints appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 063: First Vision Apologetics** Feb 17, 2022
The earliest account of the First Vision poses some conflict within Mormon Truth Claims about what Joseph Smith experienced and what was invented about the Founding event in Mormonism. If there is no First Vision, there is significant reason to believe the rest of Mormonism is on shaky ground. So how do apologists deal with the 1832 account of that First Vision and what does logic and common sense say about that.

RESOURCES:

https://www.ldsliving.com/a-closer-look-at-critiques-of-joseph-smiths-first-vision/s/92128

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Why_is_Joseph_Smith%27s_struggle_with_Satan_not_mentioned_in_the_1832_account_of_the_First_Vision%3F

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Was_Joseph_Smith%27s_First_Vision_Vision_set_in_heaven_or_on_earth%3F

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ooewni4lmhdul9m/Rod%20Decker-Vogel-Peterson-2004.wmv?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tooif2mz619x5h2/Brad%20Wilcox%201st%20Vision.mp4?dl=0

The post Mormonism LIVE: 063: First Vision Apologetics appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 062: BYU’s Fight Against Modernity Past & Present** Feb 10, 2022
BYU has a history of manipulating & pressuring its educators into consistently stopping short of teaching modern best accepted ideas and research. While it claims to be a university that values education what it really does it limit the critical thinking skills and works to prevent its students from having access to the best information. We start by discussing the modern moment where BYU has changed its policy around the worthiness of BYU and CES Educators to control what is taught in the classroom and then we dive deep into the past to show the more things change the more they stay the same. And lastly we demonstrate that agency really is a value that The Church’s mouth writes but their actions just aren’t cashing.

A.) BYU’s (All of CES) New policy for its staff (Notice the Church speaks officially for BYU as it is one and the same)

The old Wording vs the new wording

The new policy is: “to hold and be worthy to hold a current temple recommend.”

The Old policy is “ “accept as a condition of employment the standards of conduct consistent with qualifying for temple privileges”

Friend and One of the Mole Professors I have on the inside of BYU. (We’ll call him Elder Dyches for anonymity) “Elder Dyches” told me that “Under that condition, I could tell my bishop I qualify, but am not interested in having a recommend and it wouldn’t affect my employment.”

The permutations of such a change

Gives more control to Salt Lake over local leaders and the CES staff those leaders have stewardship for as “worthiness issues arise in an employees behavior (AKA – Apostate Teachings in Seminary or BYU college classes

Imagine Pressure to stay in line this adds. Is it significant? Maybe not versus the old wording but it absolutely feels like additional undue influence. BYU is simply looking for just cause AKA – breaking the “Worthiness Standard”. Even if on a loophole that involves abusive underhanded methods intended to manipulate people into obedience and loyalty over conscience.

B.) Which led me to wanting to share with you The 1911 Brigham Young University modernity controversy

In 1907, then BYU president George H. Brimhall (No you silly gooses Elder Oaks wasn’t BYU president back then. He’s not that old) began hiring a new group of faculty to increase the academic reputation of his school. His goal “to include in [his] faculty … the best scholars of the church.” (Brimhall was 55 yr old)

1907 Joseph Peterson – Psychology (Joseph Peterson was the first Ph.D on the faculty of BYU)
1907 Henry Peterson – College of Education.
1908 Ralph Vary Chamberlin – Biology
1909 William Henry Chamberlin- Philosophy

These were devout Mormons but who were sought out intentionally to bring the Church’s College approach into Modernity including increasing the intellectual atmosphere of the university and community.This led to these four facilitating discussion and debates on evolution and the Bible, and attempting to convey that evolutionary ideas and Mormon theology were not mutually exclusive, but rather complementary

These four professors were popular.

They liberal ideas are being met with disapproval

Horace H. Cummings, superintendent of the church schools (and largely self-educated) was deeply bothered by the non-approved curriculum being brought in.

Church officials accused the professors of promoting heretical views. First Presidency of the LDS church, consisting of Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund (Around the beginning of 1910 the First Presidency asked Orson F Whitney to draft an official statement on “the Origin of Man”)

It was decided that these men “were out of harmony with the brethren” and Horace H. Cummings offered the Petersons and Ralph Chamberlin a choice: alter their teachings or lose their jobs. Privately, Joseph B. Keeler told Ralph Chamberlin he could stay (His curriculum must have been pretty Vanilla), but he refused, as the Petersons weren’t given the same offer.

Brimhall – “There are some people who predict the death of the college if these men go. I am ready to say that if the life of the college depends upon any number of men out of harmony with the brethren who preside over the church, then it is time for the college to die.”

Ralph Chamberlin responded during the meeting between these four teachers and the School administration (which included 6 Church leaders) “If you can bring me one student whose faith I have injured in Mormonism, I will bring you five that you, through your narrowness, have driven out of the church. … I never gave a public lecture on evolution until I had consulted you as to whether it would be all right. You urged me to do it. Now, why have you changed suddenly?” Brimhall could only feebly joke, “Well, I’ll tell you, Brother Chamberlin, I know whi ch side my bread’s buttered on.”

Unwilling to change their teachings, the Petersons and Ralph Chamberlin left the university in 1911, while William remained for another 5 years, resigning in 1916.

The University of Utah in Salt Lake City had a similar controversy — what some at the time described as ‘a tempest in a teapot’ — erupted four years later in February 1915. There, the dismissals of two professors and two instructors by President Joseph T. Kingsbury — and the subsequent resignations of 14 faculty members in protest — launched the American Association of University Professors’ first institutional academic freedom inquest, spearheaded by AAUP founders Arthur O. Lovejoy and John Dewey. The 1911 BYU controversy — involving some of the same professors, including the Peterson brothers and the Chamberlins — led in part to the University of Utah debacle

The BYU and University of Utah incidents were a big impetus for the passing of the 1915 declaration of principles on academic freedom and academic tenure

Conclusion: The Salt Lake Tribunes many as 80 percent of the faculty sympathized with the Petersons and Chamberlin. When Joseph F. Smith was told that “a number of [Provo] merchants and others favoring the … teachers had withdrawn their patronage from the [White and Blue],” he “spoke up immediately and said that the First Presidency wanted no change in the paper’s policy and … [said] he would instruct [Zion’s Savings Bank] to keep the paper out of financial difficulties.” Smith also admonished his son, Andrew, a student at the high school adjoining BYU: “For my sake, my son, as well as your own[,] eschew the Petersons’ and Chamberlin’s evolution and all such things.” On 13 March over 100 undergraduates assembled on campus in a mass rally to “stand by their teachers.” The students distributed a petition “ratifying and endorsing the teaching of the professors, and praying for their retention by the Board of Trustees.” Of a total college enrollment of 114 undergraduates, as well as a handful of professors, over 90 students and faculty signed the statement, which both the Tribune and the Herald-Republican printed. Predictably, the Deseret News chastised the students for airing their criticisms in print, especially in the Tribune, while Brimhall publicly scolded them for “dictating” to the “prophets.”

Brimhall discussing the issue with Reed Smoot – Throughout the following weeks, Brimhall was left to deal as best he could with dissatisfied faculty and students. In mid-May, he wrote again to Smoot, “I would be in perfect misery if I were not in harmony with those over me—I can stand it to be out of harmony with others. My policy has been to follow the interests of our faculty and also follow the interests of the student body, [but] I cannot be expected to follow either of the latter unless they are in perfect harmony with those above me.” Smoot replied supportively, “If the time ever comes that it is impossible for me to be in harmony with my presiding officer, I will quickly resign, if it involves any great principle affecting my conscience or my religious beliefs.”

Joseph Keeler (a counselor to Brimhall in the BYU presidency) later asked, “Brother Chamberlin, why can’t you teach this subject the way we want it taught, [instead of] the way you’re teaching it?” Chamberlin replied, “I’m so constituted that I can’t teach what I don’t believe.”

Following the controversy, many faculty and students were reluctant to discuss some “matters of scientific and sociological value [p.36]for fear of losing their positions and receiving the boycott of the church.” Others began asking if there were “any [other] doctrines of the church which [were] inconsistent with the commonly accepted conclusions of science.” School trustees approved a new teaching contract in October 1911 which required loyalty to church authorities as a condition of employment.

Back to current moment
The Voluntary adoption of the new policy

Mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses –

“https://catalog.byu.edu/about-byu/administration – Who is at the head of BYU (They are one and the SAME

RESOURCES:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911_Brigham_Young_University_modernism_controversy

In 1911, a professor was fired from BYU for teaching evolution. 80% of student body signed a petition in the Salt Lake Tribune to save him. Today, BYU exhibit describes firing of highly qualified teacher as "righteous sacrifice." from exmormon

13) 3 BYU PROFESSORS: Why did President Joseph F. Smith dismiss three professors from Brigham Young University for teaching organic evolution?

https://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/A6520A9D-0A9A-47B3-B550-C006B5B224E7/0/1915Declaration.pdf

George H. Brimhall’s Legacy of Service to Brigham Young University

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Salt_Lake_Tribune/B._Y._U._Students_Destroy_Reply_of_the_Presidency_and_Make_Public_the_Protest_They_Formulated

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/07/can-unique-byu-really-be/

The Cyclical Nature of BYU’s Religious Education

https://byu.us8.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2ba3f012bcd865407204981a0&id=b74a02af7a&e=f9fae89146

https://hrs.byu.edu/byu-employment-standard

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-educational-system-employment-standards-refinements

https://hrs.byu.edu/byu-employment-standard

https://news.byu.edu/announcements/a-message-from-president-worthen

http://signaturebookslibrary.org/the-1911-evolution-controversy-at-brigham-young-university/

https://web.archive.org/web/20181013203310/https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/013-10-16.pdf

https://biology.byu.edu/00000172-29e6-d079-ab7e-69efe5890000/byu-evolution-packet

https://catalog.byu.edu/about-byu/administration
Church Board of Education and Board of Trustees
President Russell M. Nelson Chairman
President Dallin H. Oaks First Vice Chairman
President Henry B. Eyring Second Vice Chairman
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland Board Member
Elder D. Todd Christofferson Board Member
Elder Paul V. Johnson Board Member
Elder Michael T. Ringwood Board Member
Bishop Gérald Caussé Board Member
Sister Jean B. Bingham Board Member
Sister Bonnie H. Cordon Board Member
Brother Steven J. Lund Board Member
R. Kelly Haws Secretary

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**Mormonism LIVE: 061: Vogel & Metcalfe In Da HOUSE !** Feb 03, 2022
RFM and Bill Reel sit down with Dan Vogel and Brent Metcalfe on this week’s episode of Mormonism LIVE ! And you aren’t going to believe the stories these two have.

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**Mormonism LIVE: 060: The Unmasking of Maven** Jan 27, 2022
Tonight’s episode delves into the recent addition to Mormonism LIVE, Maven. Maven recently joined RFM and Bill Reel as the show manager. She does all the dirty work and increases the shows production value and from time to time she adds a powerful informed female voice to the show. Up until now she has remained anonymous and tonight Maven will be for the first time stepping out of anonymity and introduce herself to the audience helping them better get to know her.

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**Mormon Discussion: 361: Revisiting my Understanding of the First Vision** Jan 20, 2022

Mormon Discussion: 361: Revisiting my Understanding of the First Vision I wanted to sit down and have a conversation with you about how I learned, understood, and contextualize various topics within Mormonism. In this episode we do that around the First Vision

RESOURCES:

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V47N02_210.pdf

https://youtu.be/Uj2VWhuW50w?t=2795

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/magazines/before-2021/new-era?lang=eng

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**Mormonism LIVE: 059: The Equal Rights Amendment and Utah** Jan 20, 2022

RFM and Bill Reel sit down with Kelly Whited Jones and Jana Spangler to dive into the history and current standing of Women and the Equal Rights Amendment and specifically that history within Utah and the Mormon Church.

Resources:

utaheracoalition.org

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**Mormonism LIVE: 058: Mormon Apologist Skullduggery – The Mystery of the Second Watson Letter** Jan 13, 2022

Playing off of last week’s “Two Hills Cumorah” episode we investigate the claim of a “2nd Watson letter”. What we find is not only more apologist obfuscations but perhaps one of the biggest underhanded maneuvers LDS apologists have ever pulled off.

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**Mormon Discussion: 360: The Holy Ghost as a Trump Card** Jan 11, 2022

How Elevation Emotion is used as a trump card and corrupted by giving it a new name, that of “The Holy Ghost”

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**Mormonism LIVE: 057: The Two Hills Cumorah Theory** Jan 06, 2022

RFM and Bill Reel tackle the two Hills Cumorah theory. The explain how Cumorah fits within our scriptures, show us how it was understood and taught all through early Church history and when in the modern times it changed and how that course adjustment has the Church approaching it today. To the believers who always wished for these things to be simple and faithful, eat your heartlander out !

**IMAGES FOR SHOW**

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/collection/bmvl-moroni-10-images?lang=eng

OPENING: Heartlanders digging for Evidence (Don’t want to spend valuable time here. Just show and explain it led me to create this episode)

**A.) What the Scriptures Tell us about Cumorah**

Mormon 6:4 – we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains – SHOW MAP OF PALMYRA SURROUNDING AREA (It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains.)

Mormon 6:6 – Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah with the exception of the plates that would make up the Book of Mormon PHOTO

Ether 15:11 – The Jaredites hill Ramah and the Nephites Hill Cumorah are the same hill (He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly atwo millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.) PHOTO LOGISTICS OF A BATTLE THIS BIG

D&C 128:20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed PHOTO

**B.) What early Church Leaders and Official sources said about The Hill Cumorah in New York**

History of the Church 1:184 “This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county. PHOTO

1835 Messenger and Advocate – Page 4 Oliver Cowdery under Joseph Smith declares Cumorah is the hill in New York (Joseph Smith had the letter reprinted ) PHOTO

The Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. History of the Church History of the Church, 1948 ed., vol. 2, pp. 79–80 PHOTO

David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Joseph Smith are visited by Moroni – Moroni says Cumorah as the word is new to David (Tangential point. David Whitmer says his plowed was field and he didn’t know who did it. Lucy Mack Smith though claims David knew it was the three nephites page 4 bottom left) page 4 right hand side PHOTO

Mark E. Petersen, “A Work of Conversion,” General Conference address, in Messages of Inspiration (SLC: Deseret Book Co., 1957), pp. 98-106. I do not believe that we should give credence to the highly speculative theories about Book of Mormon geography. I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates. (Last part of Page 3) PHOTO

Doctrines of Salvation by: Joseph Fielding Smith
http://www.mormonthink.com/backup/Cumorah-JFeS-DofS3.pdf PHOTO

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1360&context=jbms All of the quotes regarding Cumorah’s Cave. I want to synopsize because there is too much here and deeply overlapping PHOTO

Anthony W Ivins (Counselor First Presidency) General Conference talk in April 1928
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0zan98tml1mr4kq/conferencereport1928a%20%20page%2015.pdf?dl=0 (Page 12 of the PDF) PHOTO

The Messenger, July 1960, No. 51 (COVER) (Page w/ pertinent section) Bishops “Attention Called To ‘Book of Mormon’ Maps” Our attention has been brought in the past few weeks to certain “Book of Mormon Lands” maps which are being offered to Church leaders and auxiliary workers by a California organization. They are apparently being distributed free of charge. We wish to refer bishops to the printed matter at the bottom of the map, which contains an inference that there are two, rather than one, Hills Cumorah — one in Mexico as well as the one in New York. The Church has never accepted this contention. Bishops are requested to make cognizant of this discrepancy those in their wards who might be sending for these maps or using them for instructional purposes. This concept of two Cumorahs should not be taught as official Church doctrine.(WOULD LOVE A IMAGE OR DOCUMENT)

Official Letterhead 1990 Letter

F. Michael Watson – Context of that letter (Frank Michael Watson was a secretary to the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from 1986 to 2008. He was assistant secretary from 1972 until April 1986. Prior to that call, he served as assistant secretary and then secretary to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (1970–1972). He was called to serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy in April 2008 and served until October 2013 when he was designated an emeritus general authority.)

Fair Claims “The First Presidency’s secretary apparently answered a question according to his own understanding”

**C. Something Changed**

What changed in Mormonism Environment – The events including number of deaths and the supplies present in the Book of Mormon simply doesn’t match what has been located on that hill – Views seem to change in the 1940’s and 1950’s

1992 Encyclopedia of Mormonism Last paragraph and subsequent finish on next page

F. Michael Watson’s Second Letter 1993

“He (F. Michael Watson) responded that the First Presidency would like to clear up that Issue and he would FAX me with that clarification.” LINK to this message

Similar message from official channels

John Clark 2004 – “the Hill Cumorah. Archaeologically speaking, it is a clean hill. No artifacts, no walls, no trenches, no arrowheads. The area immediately surrounding the hill is similarly clean. Pre-Columbian people did not settle or build here. This is not the place of Mormon’s last stand. We must look elsewhere for that hill.”

**D.) The Church in the present modern moment**

New Approach

Hill Cumorah as defined by the Church ““In the 1820s, the hill did not have a name. It later became known as the Hill Cumorah because Moroni, the Book of Mormon’s final author and the angel who met with Joseph Smith, wrote that he had hidden the golden plates in a hill called Cumorah (see Mormon 6:6)”

Still old remnants of the old approach

Hill Cumorah Photo

Cumorah, Hill

Poem to be read at the end PHOTO to show while I read

RESOURCES:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rochester,+NY/@43.3706202,-78.7467864,7.74z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d6b3059614b353:0x5a001ffc4125e61e!8m2!3d43.1565779!4d-77.6088465 (MAP OF NY AREA –

https://sites.google.com/site/bomgeography/discoveries/fountains-that-spray-no-water (What Fountain mean)

http://www.mormonthink.com/backup/Cumorah-JFeS-DofS3.pdf

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-curtis-hill-cumorah-preservation “These sacred events are central parts of what the Church calls the Restoration, an ongoing process of God revealing key truths to men and women on earth.” #3 – Upgrade the messaging of the hill’s historical and sacred significance

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1367&context=jbms

Https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/where-is-the-location-of-the-hill-cumorah
https://doctrineandcovenantscentral.org/knowhy/where-is-the-location-of-the-hill-cumorah/
http://ldsarchaeology.com/cumorah/where-is-the-hill-cumorah/
https://debunking-cesletter.com/book-of-mormon-1/hill-cumorah-location/

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/New_World/Hill_Cumorah
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/cumorah.htm

https://podcastaddict.com/episode/37201863

https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/the-books/the-book-of-mormon/hill-cumorah/

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/where-is-the-location-of-the-hill-cumorah

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hill+Cumorah+Visitors’+Center/@43.0275235,-77.7122062,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x416565d22288af00!8m2!3d43.0069794!4d-77.2259677 (Many Waters, Rivers and Fountains)
https://daytrippingroc.com/natural-swimming-areas-around-rochester/ (39 natural swimming holes)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/learn/historic-sites/new-york/hill-cumorah?lang=eng (carefully worded)

https://sites.google.com/site/bomgeography/internal-map/new-world-commentary/h/hill-ramah

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hqork9sw7bnpe7b/Resurrecting_Cumorah_The_Semi_Limited_Me.pdf?dl=0

https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/the-books/the-book-of-mormon/hill-cumorah/

http://www.moronisamerica.com/nevilles-summary-post/
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1357&context=jbms
http://www.salamandersociety.com/library/the_golden_bible-m_t_lamb.pdf

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**Mormon Discussion: 359: Jared Anderson – Consciousness, Transformation, and Men’s Work** Jan 04, 2022

Bill Reel sits down with Jared Anderson to discuss the inner work of Transformation. Along the way they hit on ideas of Consciousness, Tools that alter consciousness, human development, spiral dynamics, Men’s work, and leaving unhealthy systems. They cover a lot of ground and the conversation is insightful. If you wish to contact Jared you can email him at jaredandersoncoaching@gmail.com or visit his website linked below. You can watch the video version of this episode here https://youtu.be/a4LcQx88wj0

RESOURCES:

https://www.jaredandersoncoaching.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYSQ1NF1hvw

https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/about-sdi/integral-theory/

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**Mormonism LIVE: 056: Apostate BYU Professors** Dec 30, 2021

RFM and Bill sit down with a former BYU Professor to discuss the experience of losing your faith while working for the Lord’s University.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.louisakillian.com/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpUN29orJmM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg36L1989Ss&t

mylifebygogogoff.com/2020/08/how-a-new-instagram-page-is-exposing-apostate-byu-professors.html

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Mormonism LIVE: 055: Christmas & The Historical Jesus Dec 23, 2021

Bill Reel and RFM take a look at the Historical Jesus and hit on the main points that Biblical criticism brings into focus and once they are done, your Christmases may never be the same.

Jesus son of Mary – Illegitimate birth. Mark infers. The early church theologian Origen (d. 251 CE) has a polemical tract in which he writes an apologetic for Jesus’ virgin birth against Celsus, a pagan skeptic of Christianity (around 178 CE). Celsus was a proponent of the idea that the virgin birth story was a fiction invented by Jesus, when the truth was (as he apparently believed) Jesus was the biological product of his mother and a Roman soldier named Pantera. Also Virgin births were a common trope and polemic device in ancient mythology.

Manger – ACU scholar Stephen Carlson writes that the word “kataluma” (often translated “inn”) refers to guest quarters. Most likely, Joseph and Mary stayed with family but the guest room was too small for childbirth and hence Mary gave birth in the main room of the house where animal mangers could also be found. use the links below from Dan McllellanManger/Inn – Scripture Translation Supervisor for the LDS Church, PhD in theology and religion https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7037619189456358703?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1

More on the nativity – Daniel McClellan https://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7037685245172256046?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1 Traditional Account of the nativity – Daniel McClellan Scripture Translation Supervisor for the LDS Church, PhD in theology and religionhttps://www.tiktok.com/@maklelan/video/7040144974750731566?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1 Inconsistencies in the narrative – Matthew and Luke, the only Christian gospels which give us the virgin birth story, contain problematic details-both internally and in comparison to each other. For example, it’s been pointed out often that Luke’s dating of the census (while Quirinius was governor of Syria) in Luke is problematic. There are also difficulties when the accounts are compared to each other. The two genealogies don’t exactly reinforce each other and there are a number of striking differences when compared alongside each other–in particular the migration to Egypt in Matthew (2:13-14) which is completely absent from Luke. In Luke’s account, Mary and Joseph take Jesus home immediately to Nazareth (2:39-40), with no reference to a flight to Egypt or a conflict with Herod. Live in Bethlehem? – According to the Matthean infancy narrative, Joseph and Mary are natives to Bethlehem! They live in their house there! Houses would be part of patriarchal compounds with as many as 50 to 100 people. There is no Lukan manger mentioned, and definitely no stables! The author “Matthew” expects his audience to understand this, being that he writes for people equipped with culturally-appropriate auxiliary background information. We Western Christians, reading with spurious familiarity, are blind to this. Did the Holy Family go from Bethlehem to Jerusalem and then straight back to Nazareth, as “Luke” tells us? Or did they reside in Bethlehem, give birth to Jesus there, live about two years there until the magi come, then flee to Egypt, then some years after go to a place they’ve never been to before and take up residence there, as “Matthew” says? (No need to read the following but in case someone asks why 2 years – Notably, the magi visit Jesus in a house (not an inn or stable) and their visit is as late as two years after the birth. Matthew 2:16 records King Herod’s orders to kill baby boys up to the age of two based on the report about Jesus’s age from the magi. This delay is why most Christian churches celebrate the visit of the magi on “Epiphany” or January 6) the slaughter of the innocents – given that Bethlehem probably had fewer than 1,000 residents, it’s possible the slaughter of the innocents involved just three or four babies, Witherington said. “We’re not talking about streets lined with dead babies,” Witherington told Live Science. In a world full of brutality and violence, it’s not clear the death of a few no-name babies in a sleepy village would have made the history books. Erroneous History about a Census – A similar situation exists with the Lukan census of the whole world when Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:1–2). This census was presumably made when Herod the Great reigned over Judea (1:5), and who was alive when Jesus was born and for some time after. Copious records exist from the time of Caesar Augustus’ reign (27 BCE—14 CE). These records describe many events during that reign, particularly the most important. None of them mention anything about a worldwide census. And consider how “Luke” describes this census: people must return to the home of their ancestors. Consider what the Empire would look like in order to accomplish that—throngs of millions migrating all over for the census. And yet all historical records remain silent on it? In his own history, Augustus himself fails to mention this achievement! That’s simply not credible.

RESOURCES: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/messyinspirations/2019/12/history-discrepancies-jesus-birth/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/unsystematictheology/2016/03/six-problems-with-the-virgin-birth-biblical-and-historical-perspective/

https://theconversation.com/what-history-really-tells-us-about-the-birth-of-jesus-89444

http://www.paulonpaul.org/jesus/narr_2_birth.htm

https://www.livescience.com/49228-nativity-story-facts-history.html https://tabletalkmagazine.com/posts/the-controversial-birth-of-jesus/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/messyinspirations/2019/12/different-jesus-birth-stories/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 055: Christmas & The Historical Jesus appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormonism LIVE: 054: Mission Impossible Dec 16, 2021

RFM & Bill Reel explore Missions and how an LDS Mission can contain some strange experiences and difficulty. They accomplish this by sitting down with with someone who had just that sort of Mission.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 054: Mission Impossible appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormonism LIVE: 053: One Year Anniversary Dec 09, 2021

Mormonism LIVE: 053: One Year Anniversary RFM and Bill Reel kick of the second year of Mormonism LIVE with a look back of the past 52 weeks since Mormonism Live’s inception. We look at the favorite episodes of both us and the viewers. We look back at any funny moments, and wonder where the next 52 episodes might take us

The post Mormonism LIVE: 053: One Year Anniversary appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 052: Elder Oaks’ Electroshock Hoax** Dec 02, 2021

On November 12, 2021, Dallin H. Oaks, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ First Presidency addressed the community in a meeting. The meeting included Question and Answer on the University of Virginia Campus. In that Q&A Elder Oaks is asked about his treatment and his own development of views on LGBT folks over the course of his life. In his answer he denies that Electroshock therapy was used during his time as BYU President. In tonight’s episode we review the evidence that says otherwise and wrestle with Elder Oaks seeming to be directly lying about such an atrocious process under his administration.

RESOURCES: https://youtu.be/5F92V-P9msQ?t=294 https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction Anxiety in Stressful Times https://youtu.be/5F92V-P9msQ?t=294

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIJ6gL_xc-M&t=1490s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsSlnNx7mgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXbl4iuBLN4

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/did-dallin-h-oaks-lie-about-byu-electroshock-therapy/

https://www.losangelesblade.com/2021/11/17/mormon-leader-denies-byu-used-electroshock-therapy-on-gay-students/

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/11/16/dallin-oaks-says-shock/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallin_H._Oaks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biGQs20JhW0

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/qsusr4/elder_oaks_states_electroshock_therapy_never/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_LGBT_history#Aversion_therapy_at_BYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biGQs20JhW0

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1u3K43P-3JoY2Q5NDY3ZjYtNWUyMi00YWJiLWFhM2EtYTE4MjViNWVjOGEz/view?sort=name&layout=list&num=50&pli=1&resourcekey=0-hCSFHXaW9-fct0G1CTYPDw

https://affirmation.org/in-gods-name-the-treatment-of-homosexuals-by-the-christian-church/

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story?id=13240700

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0402338/

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story?id=13240700

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1337886http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/electroshock-therapy-at-byu.htm

https://catalog.lib.byu.edu/uhtbin/pcnum/387154 (Smoking Gun)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallin_H._Oaks#BYU_president

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction ( Oaks and Wickman – suggest shunning your gay kids)

https://affirmation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/oaks_paper_02.pdf (Oak’s initial paper telling the church how to handle the LGBT issue) – it has been their blueprint since the beginning

“The church denounces any therapy, including conversion and reparative therapies,” the Mormon Church wrote. “That subjects an individual to abusive practices, not only in Utah, but throughout the world.” – Official statement from the Church “‘BYU will respond to homosexual behavior rather than to feelings or attraction, and welcomes as full members of the university community all whose behavior meets university standards,” said Jenkins. “Members of the university community can remain in good standing if they conduct their lives in a manner consistent with Gospel principles.'” Official Statement from BYU

“Dallin H. Oaks had Gerald J. Dye over the HCO. Dye stated that part of the “set process” for homosexual BYU students referred to his office was to require that they undergo some form of therapy to remain at BYU, this included “electroshock and vomiting aversion therapies.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20131021171348/http://www.affirmation.org/therapy/with_all_thy_getting.shtml (During Oaks Time) http://www.connellodonovan.com/images/harker.jpg (Later BYU President can’t confirm\

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_gender_issues/Same-sex_attraction/Aversion_therapy_performed_at_BYU#Question:_Did_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_.28Mormons.29_ever_conduct_aversion_therapy.3F Fairmormon Denies

https://www.lds-mormon.com/legacies.shtml/

The Values Institute http://www.connellodonovan.com/images/BYU_9_15_77.jpg https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1l08kq/mormons_use_electroshock_therapy_to_cure/ In March of 1979, Marion G. Romney asked Thomas S. Monson to get a concrete budget for the Values Institute. (Which they did, and I might add that all of the money to fund the Values Institute and its projects were received directly from tithing funds paid by LDS members).” http://exposingmormonism.blogspot.com/2008/02/thomas-s-monson-new-president.html https://affirmation.org/in-gods-name-the-treatment-of-homosexuals-by-the-christian-church/

http://signaturebookslibrary.org/the-abominable-and-detestable-crime-against-nature/

https://lattergaystories.org/download/4223/

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/qsusr4/elder_oaks_states_electroshock_therapy_never/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 052: Elder Oaks’ Electroshock Hoax appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 051: Denver Snuffer** Nov 26, 2021

Wednesday Nov. 24th, RFM and Bill sat down with Denver Snuffer and discuss his life and the happenings around the Christian fellowships of “the Remnants” movement. Denver Snuffer is an author of Restorationist devotional books, a lecturer, a speculative theologian, and a revelator to fellowships of the remnants movement, a spiritual movement in schism with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The movement has a few thousand adherents, many of them members or former members of the LDS Church. He was excommunicated by the LDS Church in 2013 for refusing to cease publication of his 2011 book, Passing the Heavenly Gift which challenges many points of LDS orthodoxy. He subsequently has been identified as a prophet by many, and several of his teachings have been canonized as scripture.

**RESOURCES:**

https://denversnuffer.com/

https://medium.com/the-seer-stone/mormonism-has-a-new-religion-and-it-has-a-prophet-named-denver-snuffer-282f5e24df1e

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-holds-special-meeting-to-denounce-false-prophet

http://ldspioneerarchitecture.blogspot.com/2016/02/architecture-highlights-prayer-circle.html

The post Mormonism LIVE: 051: Denver Snuffer appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 050: Bigfoot, Cain, & Prophetic Mormon Mythmaking** Nov 18, 2021

Preparing on a short week with our focus on Thrive & the Midnight Mormon’s Debate with RFM has us selecting an interesting topic that is light and fun. So Wednesday November 17th RFM and Bill Reel dive into the old folklore surrounding Bigfoot being none other than Cain. The origination story, and how Prophets, Seer’s, and Revelators have turned a strange story into some sort of pseudo doctrine, How FairMormon really screwed the pooch, and how Mormonism’s and Sasquatch’s narratives intertwine in other strange places you may not have seen coming.

**RESOURCES:**

Is Cain Bigfoot? The Truth Behind 5 Mormon Folklore Stories – https://www.ldsliving.com/is-cain-bigfoot-the-truth-behind-5-mormon-folklore-stories/s/64534

Awareness of racism eased Mormon folk tales regarding Cain, Bigfoot https://www.standard.net/lifestyle/2015/oct/18/awareness-of-racism-eased-mormon-folk-tales-regarding-cain-big/

Bigfoot In Mormon lore … is Bigfoot Cain?
https://utahstories.com/2019/07/bigfoot-in-mormon-lore-is-bigfoot-cain/

Journal of Mormon History Vol. 33, No. 3, 2007 (pg 74) https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1051&context=mormonhistory

Question: Does Cain still roam the earth, and does this account for stories about “Bigfoot”? – FAIR https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Does_Cain_still_roam_the_earth,_and_does_this_account_for_stories_about_%22Bigfoot%22%3F

Mormon theory of Bigfoot traces monster to Garden of Eden
https://www.syracuse.com/strangecny/2008/02/morman_theory_of_bigfoot_trace.html

The Mormon Bigfoot Genesis Theory – 10 Zen Monkeys
http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2008/02/05/the-mormon-bigfoot-genesis-theory/

When Cain Appeared to Joseph Fielding Smith’s Brother & Talked with an Apostle
https://www.ldsliving.com/when-cain-appeared-to-joseph-fielding-smiths-brother-talked-with-an-apostle/s/83424

The Mark of the Curse: Lingering Racism in Mormon Doctrine?
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/45228364.pdf

Poems 476–507 – Eliza R. Snow Lexicon https://erslexicon.wordpress.com/poems-476-507/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/11/Cain-Bigfoot-Mathew-Bowman.pdf

https://archive.org/details/lifeofdavidwpatt00wilsrich/page/44/mode/2up

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/45228364.pdf http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/DPatten.html (nothing about Cain)

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/c7b775e0-ef6c-4ebe-b205-f159d8f4cdd7/0/1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5811ffxhgbph5v/MS_603-David_W_Patten_journal-ORIGINAL.pdf?dl=0 (Nothing about Cain)

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/51730/p

The post Mormonism LIVE: 050: Bigfoot, Cain, & Prophetic Mormon Mythmaking appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 048: Mark Elwood & The Glass Looker** Nov 04, 2021

We sit down with author and Illustrator of the book “The Glass Looker”, Mark Elwood and discuss how he incorporated Joseph Smith’s Treasure Digging into a beautiful animated book. We discuss how he decided what to include and what impact he hopes this book has

**RESOURCES:**

How the Project Came Together – https://theglasslooker.com/behind-the-scenes/

Order the Book – https://theglasslooker.com/product/volume1/

Mormon Discussion “168: Seer Stones, Folk Magic, and Alvin’s Hand” – https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/09/seer-stones-folk-magic-and-alvins-hand/

Mormonism LIVE !: 016: Peek Stones, Sheep’s Bones, and Gold Thrones all on Miner’s Hill – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4qiP2hZtcA

The post Mormonism LIVE: 048: Mark Elwood & The Glass Looker appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 047: Spooky Halloween Call In Show** Oct 30, 2021

Radio Free Mormon & Jonathan Streeter (Filling in for Bill Reel) deliver a special Halloween Episode fielding live phone calls where listeners can share their spooky tales.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 047: Spooky Halloween Call In Show appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 046: Suicide Within Mormon History & Theology** Oct 22, 2021

WARNING: We will be dealing with the sensitive topic of Self Harm. If you have self harm ideation and are triggered by discussion around such, please skip this episode in lieu of another.

In Tonight’s Episode Bill Reel and RFM will take a deep historical dive into the topic of Suicide within Mormon Theology and take a look at how the LDS Church has approached this issue giving historical context. What we learn is that LDS Leaders and Mormon Doctrine have had some ups and downs dealing with approaching such in a healthy way with healthy attitudes. Like everything else in Mormonism, this issue too is messy.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1988/03/suicide-some-things-we-know-and-some-we-do-not?lang=eng

https://www.deseret.com/2018/7/2/20648210/lds-apostle-totally-false-that-suicide-leads-to-permanent-hell

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Suicide

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/suicide?lang=eng

https://www.heraldextra.com/news/2015/sep/20/church-teachings-on-suicide-have-changed-through-the-years/

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-apostle-speaks-about-church-responsibility-in-mormon-lgbt-suicides-for-first-time

https://www.mrm.org/suicide-and-mormonism

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/11/21/religious-groups-views-on-end-of-life-issues/

https://deseretbook.com/p/suicide-some-things-we-know-do-not-m-russell-ballard-437?variant_id=112173-paperback

http://mormonscholar.org/an-old-sectarian-notion-lds-teachings-on-suicide-sin-and-damnation/

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/6b/1958-Mormon_Doctrine-Bruce_R_McConkie.pdf (Agency & Suicides)

https://lds365.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Preventing-Suicide-Responding-After-Loss-LDS.pdf

https://childfriendlyfaith.org/2019/06/the-homophobic-teachings-of-the-mormon-church-killed-my-son/

https://www.dropbox.com/s/24uta1hgckvtzk0/MStar_19213.pdf?dl=0 (Millenial Star)

https://archive.org/details/juvenileinstructor1993/page/352/mode/2up?view=theater&q=juvenile+instructor

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/10/13/22672169/are-latter-day-saint-lgbtq-youths-less-suicidal-a-new-study-asks-the-question-mormon

https://dsamh.utah.gov/pdf/sharp/2019/State%20of%20Utah%20Report.pdf

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154136&start=10

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline We can all help prevent suicide. The Lifeline provides 24/7, free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals.
1-800-273-8255

Tonight’s Episode will be dealing with the sensitive topic of suicide. If this topic might be triggering or such ideation is present. Please skip this episode and return back for next week’s. While we have consulted best practices National Suicide Prevention Lifeline We can all help prevent suicide. The Lifeline provides 24/7, free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals. 1-800-273-8255

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/talk-to-someone-now/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 046: Suicide Within Mormon History & Theology appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 045: Mormonism and Macbeth** Oct 14, 2021

Radio Free Mormon takes Bill Reel and the rest of us through Shakespeare’s Macbeth in order to connect some dot in Mormonism on two issues. The First is the Apologetic response that if the critic can’t explain how something is done then it must be a miracle and second how Church Leaders always seem ambiguous on the issue of having seen Christ.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1971/04/the-spirit-beareth-record?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/04/the-witness?lang=eng

https://youtu.be/g0js6xWv6bc?t=3453

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAt4Od0teNg&t=545s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrMJ2YZD62M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xRO4nPbrxk

The post Mormonism LIVE: 045: Mormonism and Macbeth appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 044: Straw Man vs Steel Man: A Lesson In Rational Thinking** Oct 07, 2021

Today we take a look at the Logical Fallacy of the Straw Man argument and juxtapose it against what it means to Steel Man someone. A Straw Man argument is when you misrepresent someone’s argument to make it easier to attack. We define a Straw Man argument, share an example, discuss how to incorporate good faith in a disagreement by instead choosing to Steel Man the disagreement, and then show how Mormonism holds up to the actual argument being made when that argument is represented fairly.

**RESOURCES:**

https://youtu.be/zYVBA8n9-pU?t=25

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/08/post-nuanced-view-church-gods-plan/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/10/premium-holy-ghost-conundrum/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/broadcasts/face-to-face/oaks-ballard?cid=HP_SU_19-11-2017_dPFD_fBCAST_xLIDyL1-B_&lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/apostles-answer-questions-about-standards-doubts-during-ysa-face-to-face?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2004/10/be-not-deceived?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual-2017/chapter-19-doctrine-and-covenants-50?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-recognize-and-understand-the-spirit?lang=eng

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/good-news-from-god/recognize-true-worshippers/

https://www.learnreligions.com/how-to-find-a-church-700487

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUvC9s4VYA

https://youtu.be/lwkh_aliF3E

https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2002/10/the-marvelous-foundation-of-our-faith?lang=eng

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/07/12/commentary-latter-day/

https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/Feb%2015%2019798%20First%20Presidency%20Gods%20Love%20for%20all%20mankind.html

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/12/premium-lucy-walker-spiritual-experiences/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 044: Straw Man vs Steel Man: A Lesson In Rational Thinking appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 043: Modern Day Mormon Danites** Sep 30, 2021

operandi is at work today inside Modern Mormonism through the SCMC, and other people and processes that work to ensure that believing members are kept at arms length from people, voices, and information that is both accurate and contradictory to the inaccurate but faithful dominant narrative.

RESOURCES:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite

https://benjaminepark.com/

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/sensationalism-a-one-sided-perspective/

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/10/jana-riess-why-did-byu/

https://web.archive.org/web/20210120130850/https:/mi.byu.edu/scholars/benjamin-park/

https://mi.byu.edu/scholars/benjamin-park/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 043: Modern Day Mormon Danites appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 042: Revelation, Excommunications, Lies & Obfuscations: The 1886 John Taylor Divination** Sep 23, 2021

In 1886 LDS Prophet and Church President John Taylor documented a Revelation whereby Jesus Christ himself informed Taylor that Polygamy (The New and Everlasting Covenant) can and will NEVER be done away. Only to have the Church later disavow and distance themselves from Polygamy. On this Episode Bill Reel and RFM will help us understand the context of the 1886 Revelation/Vision, How the Church avoided dealing with Taylor’s Documented Revelation, How Apologists deal with it today, and lastly what it demonstrates about the integrity and honesty of the Church and its leaders around this event.

**RESOURCES:**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1886_Revelation

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/09/John-W.-Taylor-Trial.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1886_Revelation#/media/File:1886_Revelation.jpg

https://rsc.byu.edu/champion-liberty-john-taylor/john-revelator-written-revelations-john-taylor (Notice which is missing)

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_polygamy/John_Taylor

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/03/202-replay-life-trial-john-w-taylor/

https://www.mormonwiki.com/John_W._Taylor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Taylor_(Mormon)

http://www.gapages.com/taylojw1.htm

https://bycommonconsent.com/2010/03/13/correlation-an-uncorrelated-history-part-4-john-w-taylor-excommunicated/

https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/1886-Revelation-article.pdf

https://www.scribd.com/document/23201016/1886-Priesthood-Succesion

https://gospeltangents.com/2020/04/taylors-1886-revelation/

https://rsc.byu.edu/champion-liberty-john-taylor/john-revelator-written-revelations-john-taylor#_edn88

Mismanaging God – Book

The post Mormonism LIVE: 042: Revelation, Excommunications, Lies & Obfuscations: The 1886 John Taylor Divination appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE!: 041: Solving the LDS Church Homosexuality Issue** Sep 16, 2021

Mormonism LIVE!: 041: Solving the LDS Church Homosexuality Issue Elder Holland recently explained ““I and many of my Brethren have spent more time and shed more tears on this subject than we could ever adequately convey to you this morning, or any morning. We have spent hours discussing what the doctrine of the Church can and cannot provide the individuals and families struggling over this difficult issue. So, it is with scar tissue of our own that we are trying to avoid — and hope all will try to avoid — language, symbols and situations that are more divisive than unifying at the very time we want to show love for all of God’s children.” In spite of being Prophets, Seers, and Revelators; He seemingly also is acknowledging that Jesus isn’t coming into the room and they are trying to figure it out without him. So Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel decide to be of assistance and offer solutions to the problem they are struggling to get an answer for. So on this episode, we will give these 15 men the theological and historical and doctrinal space to resolve this issue once and for all.

**RESOURCES:**

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-2021-byu-university-conference

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng

https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/03/extra-radio-free-mormon-amazing-contradicting-joseph-smith/

https://radiofreemormon.org/2017/12/radio-free-mormon-022-ghost-homophobias-past/

The post Mormonism LIVE!: 041: Solving the LDS Church Homosexuality Issue appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE! 040: Symphony Of LGBT Mis-Direction & Mr. Holland Dopus** Sep 09, 2021

Since its inception in 1830 LDS Leaders have been consistent at one thing. While lip service is given to being a Church that has Prophets, Seers, and Revelators who claim to speak for God and give direction from on high, these men seem to always be behind the times, stating outdated false misconceptions and teaching false and at times harmful rhetoric. No where can this be more easily recognized than on the LGBT issue. But….. sadly It doesn’t stop there.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg36L1989Ss&ab_channel=BYUSpeeches

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ay5dk9mky0p0sm7/OnTheRecord7-27.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9z40tx8wd9rt9m/homosexuality.pdf?dl=0

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/same-sex-attraction?lang=eng

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/explaining-religious-freedom-and-lgbt-rights

The post Mormonism LIVE! 040: Symphony Of LGBT Mis-Direction & Mr. Holland Dopus appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 039: When Mission Presidents Behave Badly** Sep 02, 2021

In this weeks episode of Mormonism LIVE, RFM and Bill Reel delve into some debauchery among past Mission Presidents. What they find is a common theme creating a pattern of bad behavior learning once again that unethical behavior can be made righteous within Mormonism.

RESOURCES:

https://byteline.blogspot.com/2007/09/sects-and-violence-part-5-continued.html

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V21N03_29.pdf

https://www.exmormon.org/d6/drupal/France-and-Polygamous-Mormon-Missionaries

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/8fbs7u/1980s_australia_sydney_mission_prez_was_aspiring/

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/dr-dave-christian-on-epistemology-and-the-polygamous-mission-president/

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/deseretnews/name/orson-wright-obituary?pid=186032306

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/8f98mh/philander_knox_smartt_the_excommunicated_puerto/

https://voices.uchicago.edu/religionculture/2018/05/20/1522/

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/04/26/the-case-of-puerto-rico-when-the-mormon-church-promptly-removed-a-mission-president-who-deceived-and-victimized-young-female-missionaries/

https://universe.byu.edu/2018/04/27/mormon-church-kicks-out-man-who-supervised-young-women/

The post Mormonism LIVE: 039: When Mission Presidents Behave Badly appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 038: The Second Anointing** Aug 26, 2021

In Mormonism the very elite of membership including Stake Presidents, Mission Presidents, along with Seventies and the top 15 along with all their wives receive a secret ritual that confers to them that their “Calling and Election” has been made sure. What is this ritual? What do we know about it? How has the church framed it in their theology? and why do only a select few receive it? This and more on this week’s episode. **RESOURCES:**

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V16N01_12.pdf https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmyldshistory.blogspot.com%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0YbteylqfjyBp3P_E8vU6c3WdGzGrCsOldzbCteN1jHdANClh8-TNfGPQ&h=AT0n2SeXpCqsisJ4BybEBV99LV5oOGWdD4p1HtYeYqON6tSYCRjkkxg7aHU-9f2gtlBVUUcy0PkhgbhWw6H5-T9wuBaTiuWCo1PeaxDh-KypeEmBY6CoYcW_Kl-seflSHqc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_anointing

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel/chapter-19?lang=eng Do *not* attempt in any way to discuss or answer questions about the second anointing.

www.mormonstories.org/podcast/tom-phillips-and-the-second-anointing/

http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/secondendowment.htm

https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm

http://archives.lib.byu.edu/repositories/14/archival_objects/255732

http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Second_Anointing

http://www.fact-index.com/s/se/second_anointing.html https://www.lds-mormon.com/2danointing-shtml/

https://blog.mrm.org/2013/01/the-second-anointing-of-modern-day-mormonism/ https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Calling_and_Election https://www.jstor.org/stable/44368772

The post Mormonism LIVE: 038: The Second Anointing appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 036: Hostile Takeovers, Bailouts, & Other Backroom Deals** Aug 12, 2021

Today Bill and RFM will look into events that the Church and/or its Leaders were involved in that seem to have the “appearance of Evil”.

From Elder Ballard’s time selling cars to buying Valley Music Hall to becoming an Apostle of the Lord, to what appeared to be a Hostile Takeover by Quentin Cook of a Hospital in California, to what appears to be A giant favor done by Kirton and McConkie towards Thomas Monson and his family. We may touch on a few others as well….. you never know !!!

All of these stories involve allegations and viewers and listeners should make up their own mind as to what the data seems to imply. We also welcome the individuals involved as well as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to contribute to a more informed story

**RESOURCES FOR BALLARD SECTION**

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Russell_Ballard

wheatandtares.org/2016/08/22/dunn-and-other-bad-business-deals/

www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1986/03/elder-m-russell-ballard-true-to-the-faith?lang=eng

historyofmormonism.com/2008/07/08/m_russell_ballard/

familypedia.wikia.org/wiki/Melvin_Russell_Ballard_(1928)

churchofjesuschrist.org/learn/m-russell-ballard?lang=eng

**RESOURCES FOR COOK SECTION**

caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1464984.html

dropbox.com/s/c8n69kc96rx32th/new-l-d-s-apostle-quentin-l2026.pdf?dl=0

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quentin_L._Cook

exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1503537

exploringmormonism.com/quenton-l-cook-and-fraud/

mormoncurtain.infymus.com/topic_quentinlcook.html

albionmonitor.com/community/ch-marin.html

sfweekly.com/news/sutters-empire-strikes-back/

**RESOURCES FOR MONSON JR SECTION**

groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.mormon/c/6quMKuVd8RY?hl=ja&pli=1#0910f00c9d7d7efb

lawyers.findlaw.com/profile/view/1825333_1

www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/8akrof/thomas_l_monson_sexual_harassment_coverup/

www.zoominfo.com/p/Thomas-Monson/52373910

The post Mormonism LIVE: 036: Hostile Takeovers, Bailouts, & Other Backroom Deals appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormonism LIVE: 035: Will The Real Apostle Please Stand Up ! Aug 05, 2021

In this week’s episode of Mormonism Live, we will investigate the integrity of the not only the President of the Church but also the integrity of the Quorum of the 12. Once one grasps the systemic issue within LDS Leadership, One’s trust in them becomes anything other guaranteed.

RESOURCES:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2016-01-1000-worldwide-devotional-january-2016?lang=eng 45:35 – 46:38 Time Stamp

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/04/10/mormon-land-lds-churchs/ 4:47 – 5:46 Time Stamp

In his memoirs, An Abundant Life, Elder Hugh B. Brown explained “the Apostolic Charge” that every apostle is apparently given upon admittance to the Q12. It reads as follows: “Always be willing to subjugate his own thoughts and accept the majority opinion not only to vote for it but to act as though it were his own original opinion after it has been approved by the majority of the council of the twelve and the First Presidency.”

The post Mormonism LIVE: 035: Will The Real Apostle Please Stand Up ! appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormonism LIVE: 034: Ask Us Almost Anything & More Jul 29, 2021

This weeks episode will feature RFM and Bill Reel unveiling a new show under the Mormonism Discussion Inc. umbrella and some reflection on last weeks episode regarding Nelson’s flight and we touch on the passing of Robert Ritner and spend the last half of the Show doing an AMA. RESOURCES: https://backyardprofessor.org/ http://fornspollfira.blogspot.com/2021/07/robert-kreich-ritner-jr-1953-2021.html https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/general-conference-saturday-evening-session-update

The post Mormonism LIVE: 034: Ask Us Almost Anything & More appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 033: President Nelson’s Flight of Death** Jul 22, 2021

Today We explore a story President Nelson has told for years about a flight he was on in the 1970’s. He reports the plane’s engine exploding, the wing catching fire, a death spiral by the plane, the chaos aboard, and the plane’s landing in a farmer’s field. This story had many questioning the truthfulness of his account but there was never a smoking gun to get to the truth of the matter………. until now.
**WHERE PRESIDENT NELSON OR OTHERS HAVE TOLD THE STORY**
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1992/05/doors-of-death?lang=eng
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-argentina-2019
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/3/28/22355277/president-nelson-invites-all-to-feel-the-peace-and-hope-of-easter-by-focusing-on-the-savior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EMwKxmTLaCs&ab_channel=TheChurchofJesusChristofLatter-daySaints
Russell M. Nelson, From Heart to Heart: An Autobiography (Salt Lake City: Nelson, 1979)
Russell M. Nelson: Father, Surgeon, Apostle – Spencer J Condie: Author
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/1994/06/most-important?lang=eng Russell M. Nelson, The Gateway We Call Death (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1995)
https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2004-09-18/gospel-principles-vital-to-correct-living-94995
https://www.deseret.com/2006/4/15/19948411/death-is-part-of-life-ex-surgeon-says
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-09-03/president-nelson-delivers-historic-message-to-dominican-latter-day-saints-in-spanish-8931
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/president-nelson-shares-5-lessons-life-has-taught-me-with-49000-in-safeco-field?lang=eng
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-10-26/president-nelson-finds-church-thriving-in-uruguay-thanks-to-multiple-generations-of-members-missionaries-156122
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-argentina-2019
**THE CLAIMS PRESIDENT NELSON HAS MADE** **THAT WERE RED FLAGS**
1.) One Engine on a small Two Engine plane Exploded.
2.) Said Engine caught fire.
3.) In the Explosion flammable material was spread to the plane and the plane itself was on fire.
4.) The plane did a “Death Spiral” which extinguished the fire
5.) The Pilot “turned on the Other Engine”
6.) The plane landed in a “Farmer’s Field”
**THE FACTS THAT ALLOWED OTHERS TO NARROW WHAT TO LOOK FOR**
1.) The Date of the flight was reported as November 12, 1976
2.) He was flying from SLC to St. George to attend the inauguration of W. Rolfe Kerr as the president of Dixie College.
3.) Anytime a plane incurs a malfunction or there is a mechanical flight issue or pilot error the Law requires such to be recorded. The Explosion would necessitate a publicly available recorded log report. The plane on fire would necessitate a publicly available recorded log report. The Death Spiral would necessitate a publicly available recorded log report. The landing in a Farmer’s Field would necessitate a publicly available recorded log report.
IF THE STORY OCCURRED THE WAY PRESIDENT NELSON HAS REPORTED, THERE ABSOLUTELY WOULD BE A REPORT THAT IS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. MOST FABRICATIONS HINGE ON SOME GRAIN OF TRUTH, SO MANY IN THE POST-MORMON COMMUNITY WENT INTO DETECTIVE MODE.
**THE FLIGHT REPORT FOR THIS FLIGHT WAS FINALLY LOCATED (IT WAS DIFFICULT TO FIND DUE TO THE MUNDANE ISSUES INCURRED THAT SEEMINGLY CONTRADICT NELSON’S STORY )**

https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/wNa3AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA1090&dq=skywest+incidents+1976
1.) Engine never exploded and continued to run though rough
2.) There was no Engine Fire.
3.) The Plane itself was never on fire
4.) The Other Engine was never off
4.) The plane made a “Precautionary landing at the airport in Delta Utah and not a farmer’s field
5.) There are other smaller issues with number of passengers, length of flight, cutting fuel line to both engines, and the date of the flight but we grant some benefit of the doubt for distorted memory.
If the Church or its defenders want to claim the conclusion that this flight one day earlier is NOT the flight President Nelson is speaking about, then the burden of proof is on them to provide the evidence. To claim there was another “SKY WEST” flight also going from SLC TO SAINT GEORGE” that had “WORSE ISSUES” “ONE DAY LATER”, then provide the “MANDATORY PUBLICLY AVAILABLE FLIGHT REPORT” of said flight. Without such, said conclusion by the defenders would require more conjecture and allowances.

The Plane believed to be the One Nelson rode that day

The post Mormonism LIVE: 033: President Nelson’s Flight of Death appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 032: Lindsay Hansen Park – Troubling Aspects of Joseph Smith’s Polygamy** Jul 15, 2021

We sit down with Lindsay Hansen Park, host of “The Year of Polygamy” podcast and discuss the most troubling aspects of Joseph Smith’s polygamy and LDS Polygamy at large. Lucy Walker, the Partridge Sisters, Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball, and others.

**RESOURCES**:
https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/12/premium-lucy-walker-spiritual-experiences/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2019/08/mormon-discussion-342-nancy-rigdon-and-the-happiness-letter/

mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2020/08/gospel-topic-essays-011-plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo/

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/2021-EmilyandElizaPartridge.htm

Also don’t forget to support Sunstone by purchasing the magazine or better yet register and attend the Sunstone Symposium by clicking this link https://sunstonemagazine.com/registration/

Lindsay Hansen Park is an American Mormon feminist blogger, podcaster, and the Executive Director for the Salt Lake City-based non-profit Sunstone Education Foundation. She blogs for Feminist Mormon Housewives (FMH) about women’s issues inside and outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She is the main voice behind the Year of Polygamy podcast. Her work and voice have been referenced in The Wall Street Journal, The Salt Lake Tribune’s Trib Talk, Salt Lake City Weekly, The Guardian and Quartz.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 032: Lindsay Hansen Park – Troubling Aspects of Joseph Smith’s Polygamy appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormonism LIVE: 031: Property Purchases & Changed Countenances Jul 08, 2021

Today we catch up on current events namely discussing the recent property purchases by the Church in Washington and Hawaii. We then discuss the recent language of judgement by famous LDS author and now General Authority (second counselor in the Young Men general presidency) Brad Wilcox about how those who leave can be seen to have their Countenances changed for the worse and seem to have their lives in a mess. If there is time we will also hit on the possible removal of the “Becoming Like God” Gospel Topic Essay.

RESOURCES:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/06/24/latest-mormon-land-church/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0W71YTn_fE

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/10/the-privilege-of-holding-the-priesthood?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR0thqKeYOxHIZK_x4RDeDvsOM4-aYvI6eeh8VCDPuQYvZyk9XRCBeDlgpE

The post Mormonism LIVE: 031: Property Purchases & Changed Countenances appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 030: Brass Balls – A Startling New Discovery in Mormon History?** Jul 01, 2021

RFM and Bill will sit down with a listener from England who will share with us an exciting discovery he made regarding the Liahona in Book of Mormon. This is likely the first time this discovery will be shared publicly.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 030: Brass Balls – A Startling New Discovery in Mormon History? appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 029: Another One Bites the Dust** Jun 24, 2021

We sit down with Taylor Drake to talk about his new book, “Joseph in the Gap”, and how this book has led to a disciplinary council with his Stake President on June 30th.
Book “Joseph in The Gap” – https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Gap-History-Explains-Mormonisms/dp/B08YQCQB87

The post Mormonism LIVE: 029: Another One Bites the Dust appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 028: John Dehlin and the Origination of Mormon Stories** Jun 17, 2021
Today we wit down with John Dehlin, host of Mormon Stories and Pioneer who blazed the trail into historical transparency regarding Mormon History and Social Dysfuntion using the internet as the vehicle. His podcast pioneered a new phase in Mormonism where Scholars talked openly and and the Church could be held accountable for its unhealthiness.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 028: John Dehlin and the Origination of Mormon Stories appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE ! : 027: Spencer Wright – Apologetic Logical Fallacies** Jun 10, 2021
We sit down with author, Spencer Wright, to talk about Logical Fallacies. We will examine a few ways in which certain fallacies are used in Mormonism and help the viewer/listener grasp how irrational certain apologetic arguments are. How Mormon Apologists carefully move the person investigating truth claims and history to making room for anything that it possible even if that thing is highly unlikely and do so in ways that one feels comfortable maintaining belief even though that belief may be irrational.
Spencer Wright is the author of the book, “How To Think: Why Rational and Faith Based Thinking Are In Compatible”
RESOURCES:
Spencer’s Book “How To Think” https://www.amazon.com/How-Think-Spencer-K-Wright/dp/1986747069
https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/
https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/fallacies/
http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm

The post Mormonism LIVE ! : 027: Spencer Wright – Apologetic Logical Fallacies appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE !: 026: Fact Checking Mormonism** Jun 03, 2021
We sit down with Creative Content Producer Nemo and discuss his work at fact Checking the LDS Church.

The post Mormonism LIVE !: 026: Fact Checking Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE !: 025: The Adam God Deception** May 27, 2021
Mormonism has placed each believer into having to choose which Prophets you believe and which Prophets you don’t. Choosing which Prophets are right about the views they hold claiming they got them from God and which prophets were simply wrong claiming something came from God when it must surely be their own false view since the views are contradictory. In the end the disagreement seems so obviously contradictory that one must choose one claim over the other which leaves them dismissing a prophet and having that prophet apparently unable to discern between the voice of God and his own false imagination. And once you admit that prophets and those who place faith in them are no more able to discern truth from error via the Holy Ghost…… Then how does one navigate with certainty about their own spiritual knowings and those of the prophets when one could be misled this easily. And the Cherry on top is the LDS Church’s continued Deception around the issue including misleading members by articulating the issue as if Brigham didn’t teach it through their talks, the Church manuals, and private letters demanding silence.
**RESOURCES:**
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:*Was_the*%22Adam-God%22_theory_ever_taught_as_part_of_the_temple_endowment_ceremony_as_something_called_%22the_lecture_at_the_veil%22%3F
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/04/a-self-inflicted-purging?lang=eng
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1976/10/our-own-liahona?lang=eng
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/10/adam-the-archangel?lang=eng
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/seven-deadly-heresies/#byu-header
http://www.eugeneengland.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/BRM-to-EE-Feb-80-Combined.pdf
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-14?lang=eng
https://journalofdiscourses.com/9/27
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-4?lang=eng
https://www.journalofdiscourses.com/1/8

The post Mormonism LIVE !: 025: The Adam God Deception appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE ! : 024: The Misogynisticly Unmentionable Heavenly Mother(s)** May 20, 2021
This week RFM and Bill Reel use the recent Salt Lake Trib article as a starting point to discuss why Heavenly mother is such a big deal. Or rather why so many are insisting we talk about her and why so many others demand we don’t.

The post Mormonism LIVE ! : 024: The Misogynisticly Unmentionable Heavenly Mother(s) appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE !: 023: The Shame Game** May 13, 2021
Tonight Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel take another look at the recent regional conference focusing on how Elder Holland and Bonnie Cordon handle questions from the Young adult members of the Church.

The post Mormonism LIVE !: 023: The Shame Game appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE !: 022: Strange Soundbites And Stranger Lies** May 06, 2021
Recently a few regional conferences came to our attention where LDS Leaders said things that seem to run counter to the truth. We touch on those today and take your calls on Mormonism LIVE ! Support Mormonism LIVE ! by donating today. https://mormonismlive.org/Donate-To-Mormonism-Live/ 1.) We discuss Video Footage of Elder Holland and Sister Cordon claiming the Cordon’s don’t have any wealth to an audience made up in part by the poor in Africa. Which is a deceptive statement since Derek Cordon was with Omniture when they were bought out by adobe for 1.8 Billion and They live in a Million Dollar Home https://youtu.be/Dp8dfu3TEG0?t=3180 2.) We discuss Video Footage of Elder Holland explaining how the Church is always behind and playing catch up with the world. https://youtu.be/l3Aaf29dDhA?t=180 3.) We discuss footage from Elder Bednar claiming once again that Missionary work is growing and increasing and the producing incredible results.
The post Mormonism LIVE !: 022: Strange Soundbites And Stranger Lies appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE!: 021: Sexual Allegation Against John Dehlin Goes Down In Flames** Apr 29, 2021
This Week RFM and Bill Reel takes a deeper look at the an old allegation that has been dragged out once again by critics against John Dehlin. And specifically the facts and documentation surrounding the case. And what do they find…… but that the claims the alleged victim seems to contain two major discrepancies. One is her motivation which seems riddled with blackmail and manipulation and the other seems to strike at the heart of her claims, namely her allegations countered by her very own text messages.
Exhibit A Blackmail Email – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Exhibit-A-Blackmail-Email.pdf
Exhibit B New Hampshire Complaint – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Exhibit-B-New-Hampshire-Complaint-redacted.pdf
Exhibit C Dehlin Statement – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Exhibit-C-Dehlin-OSF-Response.pdf
Exhibit D Anne’s Withdrawal – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Exhibit-D-Annes-Withdrawal.pdf
Exhibit E OSF Response – https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Exhibit-E-OSF-Response.pdf
First aired 6:20 PM Mountain Time April 28th 2021

The post Mormonism LIVE!: 021: Sexual Allegation Against John Dehlin Goes Down In Flames appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 020: Natasha Helfer’s Court of Love & Kwaku’s Bait And Switch** Apr 22, 2021
A lot happened this past Sunday in Mormonism. Natasha Helfer had a disciplinary court and later in the week was excommunicated. And Kwaku coming off of our interview attempted to drive people to video drudging up old allegations against John Dehlin but encasing it in a bait and switch put over on people as “My apology to John Dehlin”. We tackle both of those as well as some looking back at last weeks conversation with Kwaku and some of the things he said and if they hold up to critical thinking.

The post Mormonism LIVE: 020: Natasha Helfer’s Court of Love & Kwaku’s Bait And Switch appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE: 019: Kwaku El Live in Studio** Apr 15, 2021
Live Show on Wednesdays 6:20 PM Mountain Time on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5n_8_6j00PSeju0hu2CFXQ
Kwaku El in Studio for a Live Conversation about FAIR and Saints Unscripted Kwaku has graciously accepted our invitation to sit down on Mormonism LIVE ! with Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel to discuss primarily his separating from Saints Unscripted and having projects he worked on that contributed to content on FAIR having been removed. We also touch on his feelings and thoughts regarding people who leave and the emotional turmoil such journeys encapsulate and We talk about whether he recognizes if the critics are reasonable in their approach and conclusion and if he is for that matter.
**YOUTUBE VIDEO RECORDING of this episode – https://youtu.be/Kd7EdebQ194**

The post Mormonism LIVE: 019: Kwaku El Live in Studio appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE ! : 018: Lazy Learners & Shrinkage** Apr 08, 2021
Mormonism LIVE ! – April 2021 General Conference Edition RFM and Bill Reel will sit down and review some of big happenings and talks in April 2021 General Conference. And if absolutely zilch happens, then we will address the recent handbook changes and discuss what they say about where they came from and where the Church moves forward because of those changes.
Recent Handbook Changes allowing single members more opportunities to serve – https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/general-handbook-update-march-2021
2020 Membership Report – https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/april-2021-general-conference-statistical-report
President Nelson’s Lazy Learner Talk – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VGCEQLzITk

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**Mormonism LIVE ! : 017: Mormon Minecraft** Apr 01, 2021
As RFM prepared for last weeks episode on Miner’s Hill he came across some things in regards to Joseph Smith’s treasure Digging that you won’t want to miss. Mormonism LIVE ! Tonight has multiple bombshells with one of them being YUGE! Like blew my mind HUUUUGE. These are all things almost everyone doesn’t know with the major bombshell absolutely being unknown to everyone and a game changer.1.) Who with and where did Joseph Smith dig specifically for the Gold plates before Cumorah? and before 1823? 2.) Proof the Church is still not being transparent with damaging documents even on its Joseph Smith Papers Project Website. They are still trying to avoid believers confronting the facts and keeping data from a believer accessing such..3.) We take the Apologist’s strongest evidence of the Book of Mormon and show a much more reasonable contemporary example in Joseph Smith’s milieu.4.) AND THE BIGGEST BOMBSHELL OF THEM ALL WHICH WE WILL UNVEIL ON THE SHOW TONIGHT………. YOU WON’T WANT TO MISS THIS. Faculty of Abrac – https://twitter.com/shuffard/status/1294357248546951169/photo/1 W W Phelps letter to Eber D Howe – http://www.solomonspalding.com/NEWSP/HOWE/Ex04a.htm Transcript of Joseph Knight Sr’s Recollection – https://byustudies.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/17.1JesseeJoseph.pdf Brian Hales website showing the section of Oliver Cowdery’s letter to his brother Warren displaying the SCRAPE/AFFAIR – https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/oliver-cowdery-letter-to-warren-a-cowdery-olivers-brother-january-21-1838/ Joseph Smith Papers Project not being transparent about the letter – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-from-oliver-cowdery-21-january-1838/1 The full letter book including the Oliver/Warren Cowdery Letter about the Alger Scrape/Affair – https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JSP_Book_91.pdf Nahum VS Nahom VS NHM – https://historyofmormonism.com/2012/11/14/newel-knight/ Nahum’s dissapearance – https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/they-are-my-friends-a-history-of-the-joseph-knight-family-18251850/ LDS Church’s Changing Narrative around the Translation Process – https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VZkKUmC-cjB_DnqWp9HHyW7v677e4IlUQORHn6ydOyA/edit?fbclid=IwAR3bbWLgmhXrMOq2vQxzDkN-bW3kbpJVE1-FcHLWm-tVYNmwPn3gtNx1hbc

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Mormonism LIVE !: 016: Peek Stones, Sheep’s Bones, and Gold Thrones all on Miner’s Hill Mar 25, 2021

How prevalent was Joseph Smith’s treasure digging? Where all did Joseph Smith dig for treasures. What do we know about these treasure seeking sites? What do the historical sources tell us about these treasure digs? Black Sheep, Gold Furniture, Sacred scripture translated inside these man dug caves.
RESOURCES:
KC Kern & Greg Pavone Miner’s Hill Project Website 1 – https://archival.link/mormoncave/story?fbclid=IwAR0GLubkK_y8lfDciIgs2vYPHtnX9fkigPX0O5IA5QekS1aULryUM_q9xHA
KC Kern & Greg Pavone Miner’s Hill Project Website 2 – https://imgur.com/gallery/pRGJl?fbclid=IwAR1oN3pmDljsTA1w5TBndASDxTf648P6nCuVVnj3iRqVVpfRg8IERY2YftY
Dan Vogel’s The Locations of Joseph Smith’s Early Treasure Quests https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/03/VogelTreasuredigs.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1fHa7pfUtaf7CTlEhS-hvHSKCWIFXlig0t_AARJ_OxtELfWBS59LvpqMI
Historical Sources Related to Miner’s Hill Cave https://archival.link/mormoncave/sources?fbclid=IwAR2WXX-gYTmXB_Qn6cnonpqQ-lfDHlMri4g-2veT1SIgMhufxtDGjHSQIoI
Cumorah’s Cave PDF https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1360&context=jbms&fbclid=IwAR3HMObEXTYBVCOxZI5Jqx796yaOWu5hbFWlbKkvwAzdGpTNiWX5QSHcgiM

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**Mormonism LIVE !: 015: Tales of Hofmann** Mar 18, 2021
On tonight’s episode RFM and Bill Reel dive further into the Mark Hofmann story exposing Elder Oaks and at the time Elder Gordon B. Hinckley as potentially deceiving and lying about what transpired in their meeting with Hofmann and their efforts to obtain what they believed were authentic and also damaging documents to the Church’s narrative and the faith of its members. Bill concludes with revealing multiple never before seen documents including the Hofmann’s outline for the forged 116 pages of the book of Lehi, Hofmann’s Psychological evaluation, his education report cards, and a master list of all the signatures/authored documents he forged of famous people.
**RESOURCES:**

Elder Oaks 1985 talk that includes much around the Hofmann affair including suggesting a Salamander could be interpreted as the angel Moroni – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hAL-qLOISs
Elder Oaks suggesting if we keep the commandments we won’t be deceived while the listener recognizes Elder Oaks, then Elder Gordon B Hinckley, and other leaders were in fact deceived by Hofmann – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hAL-qLOISs
Elder Oaks saying way too much about the Hofmann ordeal that in the end compromises the events as he tells them https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/10/recent-events-involving-church-history-and-forged-documents?lang=eng

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Mormonism LIVE !: 014: How Can It Not Be True? Mar 11, 2021

Using a recent video published by the LDS Church titled “How Can It Not Be True”, RFM and Bill Reel take this short 1 minute and 15 second video that attempts to impose faulty evidence and faulty reasoning as proving the Church is true and decimate it. When they are finished, answering the question How can it not be true becomes quite easy.
RESOURCES:
How Can It Not Be True – LDS VIdeo – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvxH24aPkTQ
Chris Johnson – Stylistic Drift – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI

Christopher Smith – Stylistic Drift – http://www.withoutend.org/stylistic-drift-book-mormon-dictation/
Terrence Chambers – New Testament Phrases in the Book of Mormon – http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol.%2022%20Issue2/Version-1/R220201120147.pdf
Book of Mormon Anachronisms – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronisms_in_the_Book_of_Mormon
Criticism of the Book of Mormon – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Book_of_Mormon
19th century material in the Book of Mormon – https://www.churchistrue.com/blog/19th-century-protestant-phrases-in-book-of-mormon/
Book of Mormon Archeology – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon
Faithful LDS Scholar Richard Bushman on 19th century material in the Book of Mormon – https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/bushman-on-19th-century-phrasing-and-theology-in-the-book-of-mormon/
Richard Bushman on Joseph Smith producing pseudepigrapha – https://www.missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/mormon-pseudepigrapha/
synopsis of Grant Palmer’s Insider’s view of Mormon Origins – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Insider%27s_View_of_Mormon_Origins
Grant Palmer’s Mormon Stories Interview – https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/mormon-stories-030-031-032-and-033-an-insiders-view-of-mormon-origins-an-interview-with-grant-palmer/
The Dreams of the Smith Family – Contains Joseph Smith Sr.’s dream that resembles the Vision of the Tree of Life – https://sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/064-22-29.pdf
Introduction to the Grammatical and Substantive changes to the Book of Mormon – http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

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**MORMONISM LIVE !: 012: The Funniest Missionary Story** Feb 25, 2021
RFM and Bill Reel have a guest on today, Chris Bloxham, who gets us started by telling us a funny story from his mission. After that we give our callers a chance to share their funny mission stories, and finish off having RFM share a funny story from his mission.
Please donate to Mormonism LIVE ! by CLICKING HERE

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MORMONISM LIVE !: 011: The Rules of the Game Feb 18, 2021

There are five rules to the game of Mormonism; all of them from the perspective of church leaders:
Rule No. 1–We are going to hide stuff from you.
Rule No. 2–We are going to try to keep you from finding the stuff we are hiding from you.
Rule No. 3–We are going to lie about hiding stuff from you.

Rule No. 4–You can’t blame us for hiding stuff from you.
Rule No. 5–If you talk about the stuff we are hiding from you, we will hide you. (See Rule No. 2)Once you understand the five “rules of the game,” everything else falls into place.
RESOURCES:
https://youtu.be/4hAL-qLOISs
https://www.deseret.com/2008/8/2/20379462/be-cautious-about-lds-history-articles-elder-oaks-says?fbclid=IwAR22qAPf6HvVfRVyLX_faN2NGYRqvuxMQj-VUA1I20y_votqlxiy-egQMgI
https://youtu.be/Eqi-ll1PSr0?t=1
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-mantle-is-far-far-greater-than-the-intellect?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR3UdfA0Yy1EIhOpnaIr42oeR8pTPuSmNs-PdFd6NpL5gjX78e1wG8FSqas
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1986/01/truth-and-more?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR3lTzVmfLSDIN22CSFzqtYRVpraCSTlnzt0U1k_zvoHGh8G9PwX9SfygG4
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/russell-m-nelson/truth-and-more/?fbclid=IwAR0cxr5OaF7YED0mPLTq57yGcYg5C2SCHgY94bhxST_OzJxo92Fe6Yy5dnk
https://youtu.be/lsi3wLiyiEE?t=520
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/president-oaks-counsels-young-couples-defending-the-gospel-on-the-frontline-?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR22qAPf6HvVfRVyLX_faN2NGYRqvuxMQj-VUA1I20y_votqlxiy-egQMgI
https://youtu.be/Uj2VWhuW50w?t=2666
https://youtu.be/RPeIgjZ0EQg?t=742
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1993/04/keep-the-faith?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR3lTzVmfLSDIN22CSFzqtYRVpraCSTlnzt0U1k_zvoHGh8G9PwX9SfygG4
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2015-10-2060-elder-vern-p-stanfill?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR3_4rgQQtelIZwdX-Dm5w6LqIWum5E78RDrDY2He8BeKhjRbi3v-j9zttI
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/56andersen?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR3J7TtWjDfYfVjO6xcFXNa1-M5XXsU_luV2H4tj-vKGYOAXRF8TKRR0ci4
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2012/10/can-ye-feel-so-now?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR0_-V_9p9yrxkD9zcCcVpT-szyykb_vcN54k1x83hpb4Zvf5CEOEHN0zzk

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**MORMONISM LIVE !: 010: Demonic Possession, Exorcism, and Mormonism** Feb 11, 2021
In todays Episode Jonathan Streeter fills in for Bill Reel and takes RFM on a journey discussing the first miracle in Mormonism. They discuss the role that Demonic possessions and exorcisms play in religion generally and how such things have influenced Mormonism specifically.

The post MORMONISM LIVE !: 010: Demonic Possession, Exorcism, and Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormon Discussion: 358: Two Brothers Two Paths Feb 09, 2021

Today I sit down with two brothers, Samuel & Joseph. Both of these two brothers know the issues. They both have gone down the rabbit hole of Mormonism seeing its messiness and complexity. Having gone down the rabbit hole they came out different sides. Joe’s faith, once strong and both feet in, dissolved and vanished away as he left the Church and navigated the hard path out of the Church and making a new life and a happy one at that. Sam on the other hand, while agreeing with much of what the critic has to say, has continued to stay seeing value in continued practice and activity and faith that Mormonism can still be and become an inspiring place to be part of community, to raise a family, and to do God’s work. The most profound part of this conversation is the love and vulnerability these two brothers share with each other, honoring each others path and validating the position that the other has arrived at. Maybe, there is something each of us can learn from these two incredible men as they seek to set aside faith positions and simply love each other as brothers making space for each other to show up as they are with no expectation of what that should look like.

The post Mormon Discussion: 358: Two Brothers Two Paths appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**MORMONISM LIVE !: 009: Elder David Bednar & Wendy Nelson, Has The Day Of Miracles Ceased?** Feb 04, 2021
Moroni 7:27 asks Has the day of Miracles Ceased? The answer in the scriptures is nay. Yet What happens when we take a look at what LDS Leaders suggest as the miracles that are happening. We use two Sound clips at the backdrop of todays discussion. One is David Bednar’s recent BYU devotional where Elder Bednar imposes that miracles are happening today just as in days of old and gives us 8 quotes that are supposed to be evidence of the miracles except there aren’t any…. unless you are counting smiles, hours served, phones answered, and a person was were they were supposed to be. The second clip revolves around Wendy Nelson informing us that President Nelson was prompted prior to Covid in 2020 to cancel all of their bookings for the year. But when this “miracle” is examined it seems to contain deep factual problems and negative theological ramifications.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/moro/7?lang=eng

https://youtu.be/Az6-7yzZOLs?t=1

https://www.thechurchnews.com/podcast/2021-01-05/sister-wendy-nelson-sheri-dew-president-nelson-prophet-three-years-201007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3yRp2C7BN8&fbclid=IwAR07EbuLdC4cgIibxrFlAruDHq7TuvqkinwLO3eKB_Th6reMy-GHct93fd8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAt4Od0teNg&fbclid=IwAR35-eQ-732TcFVmpQeXAceXtYTZ6MycK378lzYfqqiOBow4Vq7M-70DwWc

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJZ4JaCOIL8&fbclid=IwAR27aNOPG308McVU-E5-TaaZiizQddoIXCh3h6cA6kp0QVQlzRJ9HND8HdQ

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**Mormon Discussion: 357: Recovering From Religion** Feb 03, 2021
Today we sit down with Dr. Darrel Ray and Shane Larsen and talk to them about the organization “Recovering From Religion“. We talk with Dr. Ray about how this organization got started, his two books “God Virus” and “Sex & God“. We ask Shane about how he went from a Mormon to volunteering and organizing a local chapter of RFR in Salt Lake City, Utah. and Then we talk to both of them about the need for such organizations and support to those leaving religion and recovering from the trauma and shame. We discuss the resources RFR provides and how others can find them.

**RESOURCES:**

https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/

https://www.meetup.com/rfr-salt-lake-city-ut/Meetup RFR Salt Lake City Group –

https://www.amazon.com/Sex-God-Religion-Distorts-Sexuality/dp/0970950543https://www.amazon.com/God-Virus-Religion-Infects-Culture/dp/0970950519

https://www.amazon.com/God-Virus-Religion-Infects-Culture/dp/0970950519

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**MORMONISM LIVE !: 008: Keith Erekson Hoax Expert** Jan 28, 2021
We once again develop this weeks episode around Director of the Church History Library, Keith Erekson. Except this time we address his expertise as a hoax expert. No Seriously, this guy is one of the worlds experts on discerning hoaxes. He has written articles, given presentations, and taught in academia about such helping people for years to to discern and deconstruct hoaxes. But catch this….. he has been unable to apply those same tools to his religious beliefs and that is the topic for tonight’s episode
**RESOURCES:**
https://www.keitherekson.com/2020/03/how-to-detect-a-hoax/
https://www.keitherekson.com/2020/03/how-to-analyze-a-hoax/
https://www.keitherekson.com/2021/01/how-to-talk-about-rumors-and-conspiracy-theories/

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**MORMONISM LIVE !: 007: Keith Erekson – Analysis of the Director of the Church History Library** Jan 21, 2021
Tonight RFM and Bill Reel take a look at how Director of the Church History Library, Keith A. Erekson, frames apologetics, inoculation, and publicly frames the criticisms of the Church. What tone does he use? What approach does he take with the critic and their criticisms? What approach does he take with the issues? How does he interact with the members of the Church in terms of transparency? Vulnerability? Honesty? and Forthrightness? Is this an improvement or is it a deeper layer of deception? We do this by examining his recent Fireside w/ multiple stakes published on the Fredrickson Stake Youtube Channel
Keith Erekson is the head of the vaults where historical items are saved in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He and his two assistants are the only folks with unfettered access to these archives and storage.

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**Mormonism LIVE !: 006: LDS Handbook Changes December 2020 Part 2** Jan 14, 2021

RFM and Bill Reel take a look at the December 2020 Changes to the General Handbook of Instruction within the LDS Church. This Second part starts with a special Guest, Wendi Wilcock Jensen, as we dive into the handbook section on Energy Work. From there we discuss the changes involving Transgender people, Changes on the approach to abuse, a new section on Prejudice, and then we conclude with The new section on seeking reliable information and use a soundbite from a Mormonland Podcast interview to show that it is actually the LDS Church that is unreliable, non-credible, and deceptive.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/title-page?lang=eng Soundbite parody in the voice of Gordon Bitner Hinckley at the beginning is from the TikTok artist Mitch Shira also under the name “genie_man”. Please Check out his work !!!

The post Mormonism LIVE !: 006: LDS Handbook Changes December 2020 Part 2 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE !: 005: LDS Handbook Changes December 2020** Jan 07, 2021

RFM and Bill Reel take a look at the December 2020 Changes to the General Handbook of Instruction within the LDS Church. There is a major bombshell in this episode dealing with the hierarchy of doctrine when comparing the handbook with the teachings of the living prophets and the holy scriptures.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/title-page?lang=eng

The post Mormonism LIVE !: 005: LDS Handbook Changes December 2020 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE !: 004: The Rise And Fall of Alma as Apologetic** Dec 31, 2020
Mormon Apologists have forever pointed out that one criticism of Mormon Truth claims is Joseph Smith’s use of the female name Alma for a male’s name. After citing the criticism, Mormon Apologists immediately follow up with evidence of Alma’s use as a Male name in the ancient eastern world. But is this really an argument being made that deserves a rebuttal? Was Alma really only a female name in Joseph Smith’s day? Did he know any male Alma’s? And are LDS Leaders and Apologists honest around this issue? That and more and your phone calls on this episode of Mormonism LIVE !

The post Mormonism LIVE !: 004: The Rise And Fall of Alma as Apologetic appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormonism LIVE !: 003: The Changing Landscape of Mormonism under President Nelson** Dec 24, 2020
Using the recent Atlantic Magazine Article about Mormonism which includes an interview with Russel M. Nelson, President of The LDS Church as a springboard, RFM and Bill will have a light and entertaining conversation about the Changes that have taken place under the Leadership of Russel M. Nelson and some thoughts about where Mormonism could be headed in the near future.
Atlantic Magazine Article Link
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/01/the-most-american-religion/617263/

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**Mormonism LIVE !: 002: Book of Abraham, FairMormon, and Ad-Straw-Minems** Dec 17, 2020
RFM and Bill Reel dive into the FairMormon “This Is The Show” video on the Book of Abraham. Stephen Smoot, Kwaku, the Powers that be at FairMormon, and so much more……….

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**Mormonism Live: 001: FairMormon & This Is The Show** Dec 10, 2020
The Inaugural Episode of Mormonism Live kicks off tackling FairMormon’s new video series name “This Is The Show” that is intended for a younger audience. Radio Free Mormon (RFM) and Bill Reel dive into whether they take on this project with honesty towards the material and compassion towards those who lose faith. Sadly on both fronts it is a strong NO.
The Live Broadcast of “Mormonism Live” is recorded on Wednesdays at 6:20PM and can be watched Live at Mormon Discussions Youtube Channel and Mormon Discussions Facebook page
Past episodes can be viewed be viewed on MormonismLive.org as well as Itunes, Stitcher, and most 3rd Party Podcast Apps.
You Can reach RFM and Bill Reel by emailing them at MormonDiscussionsPodcasts@gmail.com

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Mormon Discussion: 356: Global Flood Apologetics Oct 02, 2020

Today we tackle how Apologetics seeks to address a Global Flood by making allowances for the flood to be local and for one’s beliefs around the flood to not be a issue for one’s standing on the LDS Church. But is that the real heart of the issue? We demonstrate that a Global Flood is engrained in LDS Canon, testified by LDS Leaders, woven into LDS Theology, and Preached in LDS lessons. We also demonstrate that a Global Flood is simply absurd and for all intents and purposes demonstrably false. Once we show those two facets are at odds with each other, it becomes clear that Mormonism, whatever it is, is not what it claims to be.

RESOURCES:

https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/flood

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

FairMormon Global Flood Apologetics

More Apologetics

And even more Apologetics

Donald Parry Ensign Article

LDS Living Apologetics

Mormon Discussion Global Flood article

Dialogue Article on the Flood

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**Mormon Discussion: 355: Sacramental Changes and The Common Cup** Aug 27, 2020
Today Bill Reel and Chris Bloxham sit down and discuss the Sacrament and specifically what led to the change from a single common cup that everyone drank from to having individual cups. To understand this story is to understand Progressive Mormonism. To understand the battle that is always going on from those who are conservative and want desperately to cling to tradition and fight to maintain the status quo versus the progressive movement which seems to generally be focused on the data and science and seem to be making rational arguments and moving us towards treating each other with more healthiness. And the leaders in their need to be seen as inspired while consistently always lagging behind the progressive members where the real inspiration was originating. Culminating with the tragic moment when Joseph F Smith dies from Pneumonia right in the midst of the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 and now it becomes paramount that the Church face the faulty thinking that tradition trumps good ideas and healthier ways of doing things. And then in the end, The church is dragged into change when it finally accepts time and time again that the real inspiration was with its critics and its progressive members.

**RESOURCES:**

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/blog/sacrament-cup-influenza-epidemic-1918

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/08/Mormon-Sacrament-1928_1940.pdf

https://rsc.byu.edu/you-shall-have-my-word/lords-supper-early-mormonism

https://www.ldsliving.com/What-You-Didn-t-Know-About-Sacrament-Cups/s/82333

https://58468702.weebly.com/mormon-sacrament-cups.html#:~:text=Previously%20the%20church%20partook%20of,the%20use%20of%20individual%20cups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_(LDS_Church)

http://www.reformedpresbytery.org/books/comncup/comncup.htm

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**Mormon Discussion: 354: Bombs and Bombshells** Aug 20, 2020
Yesterday I received a strange box at my employment. The message, where the box was placed, the Duct Tape, and the how the box got where it did all were red flags. Knowing the Mark Hoffman story….. Knowing some of the threats that others in this space have dealt with including myself in terms of angry messages or threats put me on high alert. Law Enforcement was brought in and in the end Things are almost never what you think they are.

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Mormon Discussion: 353: Those Who Leave and the Stories We Tell Aug 12, 2020

Today I sit down and examine the systemic trait in Mormonism to label those who leave as broken, less than, bad, or deceived in some way. In Mormonism when a believer stops believing we creates stories about that person.
1.) They were lazy
2.) They lacked faith
3.) They wanted to Sin
4.) They were deceived by Satan
5.) They have petty reasons for leaving
6.) They were offended
7.) they lost the spirit

Mormonism as a system gives these explanations for why people leave. Symonds Ryder and his misspelled name, Thomas Marsh and those damn milk strippings, the Three Witnesses and their being offended or deceived. Yet what happens when we stop hijacking the story of another and allow them space to tell their own story? What is the cause and what is the effect? Why does your loved one show up in the world differently then they used to? This and more is today’s episode.

The post Mormon Discussion: 353: Those Who Leave and the Stories We Tell appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormon Discussions: 352: Jacob Chapter 5 – The Allegory of the Olive Tree May 18, 2020

Today I dissect Jacob Chapter 5: The Allegory of the Olive Tree. This chapter has been shoved down the throat of believers as an evidence of the Book of Mormon’s divine origins. Olive horticulture is unique we were told. Joseph couldn’t have possibly known the concepts therein. How one grafts, dungs, burns, plants, and nourishes olive trees is beyond the knowledge base of Joseph Smith, we are told. But is this true.

Today we explore what Joseph could have known and what those sources say about Zenos’ Allegory. And in examing this we learn that once you grant
1.) that the Smiths were farmers
2.) Many other fruit trees known to the Smiths can be grafted.
3.) that the concepts and themes seem heavily borrowed primarily from Isaiah Chapter 5 and Romans 11
4.) and that a significant theme seems plagiarized from Luke 13

What is left is not only is every idea and concept within Joseph’s milleu but that Jacob chapter 5 gives us insight into how Joseph, by plagiarizing a multitude of sources, may be history’s greatest Eclectic Aggregator known to man. (Hat tip to Anthony Miller for the term Eclectic Aggregator)

(Hat tip to Anthony Miller and Michael Tweedy for portions of this episode)

RESOURCES:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/5?lang=eng

patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2020/05/some-notes-on-olive-cultivation-and-the-book-of-mormon.html?fbclid=IwAR12JBtkBnmxWZLZBbz15Mx9rSZwZw_M8mkUHXHWdwQu8t7kvwMIzuSyooM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Olive_Tree

https://books.google.ca/books?id=fodGAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA364&lpg=PA364&dq=jim%20whitefield%20and%20the%20olive%20tree%20allegory&source=bl&ots=iWgKXwiDd9&sig=ACfU3U0Ga1gGqfVKYkCmO3XsxMozXb07Jw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4tv_x-q7pAhUnGTQIHdpWAgYQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ&fbclid=IwAR37_rwO9YqLPs1UO_phZNWbc359YXrh4HgWPVnOvMycN2KW6fWqUjTMPug#v=onepage&q=olive&f=false

https://exploringmormonism.com/jacob-5-why-vinyards-and-olives/?fbclid=IwAR3yqWBlvn829_9md-Y15gipwZKok7HIHnqDTuCJQNlEBZHWDrdce0ZpkOU

https://byustudies.byu.edu/lessons/13-allegory-olive-trees

https://radiofreemormon.org/2020/05/radio-free-mormon-161-magic-and-the-book-of-mormon/

https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-jacob-through-words-mormon-learn-joy/botanical-comparisons-allegory-olive-tree

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/olive-trees-planted-around-vineyards-57257.html?fbclid=IwAR3L3fFEOcX0fD9JLWGsAdXjYyVWn1AvCJDuYh2A_-4os0sluSY_lRRaFlM

The Allegory of the Olive Tree – Jacob 5

https://www.ldsliving.com/Dissecting-the-Meaning-and-Symbols-Found-in-Jacob-5-The-Allegory-of-the-Olive-Tree/s/92569

https://zelphontheshelf.com/a-plagiarized-plan-the-origin-of-the-3-degrees/

http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm

http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296

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**Mormon Discussions: 351: Chris Bloxham & Bill Reel Dissect Race and Priesthood** Mar 04, 2020
Audio from a Live Broadcast on March 4th 8AM Mountain Time, Bill Reel and Chris Bloxham will examine Mormonism’s long standing journey w/ racism. Elder Oaks will be making a special appearance and we will have the chance to hear the great Priesthood story of Bonky & Creeby

The post Mormon Discussions: 351: Chris Bloxham & Bill Reel Dissect Race and Priesthood appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion Podcast: 350: Brittney Hartley – Mormon Philosophy Simplified** Feb 26, 2020
Today I sit down with my good friend Brittney Hartley. We discuss primarily her book Mormon Philosophy simplified. While doing so we end up exploring life. Astrology, Sam Harris, tribalism, Divine Feminine, raising children in the Church, Sapiens, myth, Christmas, spirituality, relationships, Enneagrams…the list goes on!

Mormon Philosophy Simplified : by Brittney Hartley

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Mormon Discussion Podcast: 349: Bill Reel’s Personal Experiences With The Temple Feb 21, 2020

A Listener, George, called Bill this week and asked him if he might tackle an episode dealing with Bill’s Personal experiences with the Temple. So here it is Thursday, Feb 20th, at 7:30 AM. Get ready to feel Elevation Emotion like never before!!!!

The post Mormon Discussion Podcast: 349: Bill Reel’s Personal Experiences With The Temple appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormon Discussion: 347: Mormon Billions and the Wall Street Journal Feb 13, 2020

On Monday February 10th 2020, the Wall Street Journal, released a exclusive interview with Mormon Leaders regarding the Faith’s amassed 100 Billion Plus in investments.

Wall Street Journal’s audio

https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-mormon-church-100-billion-secret-fund/124ce913-14e4-4d9e-aaa9-6e75e96f6514?fbclid=IwAR06jINGEidlav4datrnr4LY9Ovkj7AeskMgSQVkuhWWetnaIf5e93FGzsE

We examine 6 sound bites from the WSJ podcast and examine whether the LDS Church is being honest about its wealth and why it avoided publishing the amount it had accumulated.

The post Mormon Discussion: 347: Mormon Billions and the Wall Street Journal appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussions: 346: Re-Broadcast – Joseph Smith’s Folk Magic and Seer Stones** Feb 07, 2020
Today we begin our first live broadcast of the Mormon Discussion Podcast. We will engage the topic of Joseph Smith’s Treasure Digging and welcome live call ins to the show and discuss the messy issue of Joseph Smith’s Treasure Hunting and use of Seer Stones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_(Latter_Day_Saints)

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/27599/3/Parker_Stuart_AC_201103_PhD_thesis.pdf

http://undergroundnotes.com/graphics7/Dialogue_V27N03_211.pdf

Palmyra Magic Timeline

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones/%22Rock_in_hat%22_used_for_Book_of_Mormon_translation

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Joseph’s_use_of_the_seer_stone_as_a_youth

http://fr.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/08/the-alvin-smith-story-fact-and-fiction?lang=eng

http://mit.irr.org/changing-first-vision-accounts-1827-first-vision-account-related-willard-chase

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=HP-FBC

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Mormon Discussion: 345: Mormon Absurdities Dec 19, 2019

Today I share a list I having been working on. It has to do with Mormon Absurdities. The goal was to provide a list of items, that in order to believe Mormonism, one must accept these items as reconcilable, if one accepts the official narrative of their faith and the words of their prophets. These items are seen as irrational when one tries to reconcile them. One may choose to believe them but there are explanations or interpretations in each instance that require less conjecture. For example If I’m out in a cabin in the woods and I hear tapping on the tin roof, it’s simply more rational to conclude a raccoon than a space alien. You may still in fact choose to believe the noise was caused by a Space Alien. Yet nearly anyone on the planet would agree the raccoon explanation is more rational than the alien one. But the only reason at all to assume one is more rational than the other is because that explanation accounts for the data with exponentially less conjecture. Anytime you choose the solution or belief that requires more conjecture, you are in fact being irrational. When you take into account a multitude of beliefs or perspectives that each on their own requires more conjecture than other beliefs or perspectives you begin to run into a wall where the statistical improbability is insurmountable. The List is found HERE

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yzkCZkhjp_WmU9n6xWjqO0-ivX-ppQ0HrRjy4ItZz-U/edit?usp=sharing

Concluding Song by Weird Alma – Do Some Good

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Mormon Discussion: 344: Vaping, Coffee & Tea, Marijuana and an Irrational God Sep 26, 2019

Today we discuss the August 2019 New Era Article on Vaping, Coffee, Tea, Marijuana, and Opioids. Todays episode dives into the logic of why each item is forbidden and how that logic not only differs with each other thaey also make little sense when juxtaposed against other substances that are not banned and even supported by the Church that easily fall into the same reasoning. In the end it doesn’t seem to be about which substances are harmful, which are addictive, and at times the why isn’t even stated while at the same time some of the banned substances are actually shown to be good for you.

Resources:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2019/08/vaping-coffee-tea-and-marijuana?lang=eng

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/statement-word-of-wisdom-august-2019

http://www.ldsliving.com/In-New-Era-Church-Clarifies-Word-of-Wisdom-and-Stance-on-Green-Tea-Vaping-More/s/91375

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/17/mormon-church-coffee-vaping-still-no-no-despite-fancy-names-flavors/2039164001/

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-clarifies-word-of-wisdom-on-vaping-green-tea-coffee-marijuana-opioids

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/08/16/no-more-green-tea-vaping-or-drinks-ending-ccino-mormon-church-tells-members/?noredirect=on

https://www.caffeineinformer.com/7-good-reasons-to-drink-coffee

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/top-13-evidence-based-health-benefits-of-coffee

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-latest-scoop-on-the-health-benefits-of-coffee-2017092512429

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**Mormon Discussion: 343: Kindra Celani: The Axe Forgets, The Tree Remembers** Sep 11, 2019
**TRIGGER WARNING**
We will be discussing the topic of Sex Abuse and while not discussing the incidents specifically this episode may be triggering to some.

Today we sit down with a friend Kindra Celani and discuss her experience with Sex Abuse and its connection to the LDS Church. She shares how her abuser used Mormonism as a shield for his predatory behavior and how the LDS Church’s local untrained leaders seemed unable sense their duty in reporting her abuse to the authorities. On top of that recent events show that the top leaders within institutional Mormonism have set as a priority protecting the Church over reaching out with love and sincerity to the victims of abuse.

**Resources:**

https://www.rainn.org/about-national-sexual-assault-telephone-hotline

https://www.insider.com/mormon-church-accused-of-silencing-sexual-assault-claims-2019-5

https://abcnews.go.com/US/families-speak-church-jesus-christ-day-saints-sex/story?id=63690802

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d3n73w/duty-to-report-the-mormon-church-has-been-accused-of-using-a-victims-hotline-to-hide-sexual-abuse-claims

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3OqvQw_-ko

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/08/21/498646.htm

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/06/02/southern-baptist-missionary-leaders-repeatedly-covered-up-sexual-abuse/

https://www.charismanews.com/us/77588-pentecostal-church-allegedly-covered-up-sexual-abuse-for-30-years

https://www.newsweek.com/jehovahs-witnesses-child-sex-abuse-lawsuit-1454001

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44209971

https://abcnews.go.com/US/california-man-accuses-jehovahs-witnesses-covering-childhood-sex/story?id=65097514

http://religiousinstitute.org/denom_statements/statement-on-child-sexual-abuse/

https://religionnews.com/2018/11/15/clergy-sex-abuse-why-a-national-all-faiths-inquiry-is-needed/

https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/11687/view/truth-project-thematic-report%3A-child-sexual-abuse-context-religious-institutions-full-report.pdf

https://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/96038.pdf

https://www.faithtrustinstitute.org/resources/learn-the-basics/ce-faqs

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**Mormon Discussion: 342: Nancy Rigdon and the Happiness Letter** Aug 21, 2019
There are multiple examples of Joseph Smith’s manipulation of vulnerable women in order to pressure them into a polygamous relationships. The Partridge sisters, Lucy Walker, Fanny Alger, The Lawrence Sisters. Today we share the story of Nancy Rigdon and the Happiness Letter. Nancy, Daughter of Early Church Leader Sidney Rigdon is a prime example of the mechanisms and manipulation that Joseph Smith would use on Young girls in order to pressure them into an intimate relationship. Joining me are Chris Smith and Jonathan Streeter as they run us through the data and help us get the full context of this story and its surrounding events.Please check out the resources below.

RESOURCES:

Joseph Smith meeting the Rigdon’s and giving Nancy a blessing

Messenger and Advocate Rumors of impropriety between Joseph Smith and Rigdon Girl

Orson Pratt stating that Joseph taught Polygamy in 1832 while living with Johnsons at their Farm

Rumors of affair between Agnes Smith (Widow of the Prophet’s Brother Don Carlos) and Joseph Smith. They were later sealed January of 1842, before the relief society was created.

Times & Season Vol 3 Pg 291 (left hand column showing Conference Minutes regarding Marth Brotherton being locked in a room)

Martha Brotherton Affidavit

Emma Smith’s redaction of encouragement to accept private teachings over public ones

Nancy Marinda Johnson Hyde commanded to live with others

1904 Letter by brother John Rigdon -Claimed that Joseph Smith mentioned that he had made a proposal to Nancy Rigdon and she turned around and spoke out about it.

Chris Smith: Playing Lamanite: Ecstatic Performance of American Indian Identity in Early Mormon Ohio

John C Bennett sharing the Happiness Letter with the public

John C Bennett’s expose “The History of the Saints” (Left hand Column)

Discussion by Bennett which includes info on the Nancy Rigdon affair (third column from the left)

The Happiness Letter within the History of the Church

Gerrit Dirkmaat’s refutation of the Happiness Letter’s provenance

Additional context and quotes around the Happiness Letter by Van Hale

Excellent discussion of JST translation of Roman 7

Discussion of Romans 7 and the Happiness Letter

William Mcclellin letter to Joseph SMith III affirming that Emma knew about Josephs polygamy

Grant Palmer and the sexual accusations against Joseph Smith pre-nauvoo (Mormon Stories Podcast)

Brian Hales refutation of Grant Palmer’s perspective (Mormon Discussion Podcast)

Brian Hales’ Interpreter article refuting Grant Palmer

ChurchOfJesusChrist.org (formerly LDS.org) Search results for the famous Happiness Quote

High Council minutes the looking into the sexual indiscretions of women in Nauvoo

2nd source for High Council minutes

Brigham Young’s journal where he used a quasi-masonic cipher to record Joseph’s WAS (Wedded And Sealed) ceremony to Agnes on Jan 6 1842

William C Smith’s assertion of Joseph Smith and Nancy Rigdon having issues in Kirtland

Account of Joseph demanding that Brigham Young drop charges against William Smith in John C Bennet Affair

Devery Anderson’s Sunstone article (Includes a few sections on the Nancy Rigdon affair)

Jonathan Streeter’s Sunstone Presentation on the Happiness Letter (YouTube)

Jonathan Streeter & Chris Smith’s Sunstone presentation on the Happiness Letter (Audio Only)

November 1841 sermon that what we think is sin is not sin

Brigham Young sealed Martha Brotherton to himself with proxy

“Illicit Intercourse,” Plural Marriage, and the Nauvoo Stake High Council, 1840-1844

William McClellin letter to Joseph Smith III affirming that Emma knew about Josephs relationships with women

Ebenezer Robinson’s memoirs includes a brief discussion of the November sermon about sin not being sin

Happiness Letter quoted in LDS official sources
1 2 3 4 5 6

From the testimony of Catherine Fuller: (Quote where William suggest Catherine not get married and grant his sexual requests and he would continue to supply her sustenance)
“[William Smith] has also been to my house on the 27th of last month being the day I was married and proposed unlawful connexion but I refused and told him that it was contrary to the teaching of Joseph on the stand. He answered that Joseph was obliged to teach to the contrary on the stand to keep down prejudice and keep peace at home First W. Smith insisted very much that I should not marry and proposed to supply me with food &c if I should remain unmarried and grant his requests”

From the testimony of Sarah Miller:
“Some two or three weeks since, in consequence of Bro Joseph Smiths teachings to the singers, I began to be alarmed concerning myself, & certain teachings which I had recevd from Chauncy L. Higby, & questioned him about his teaching, for I was pretty well persuaded from Joseph[’s] public teachings that Chaney had been telling falsehood.– but Chauncy said that that Joseph Now taught as he did th[r]ough necessity, on acount of the prejudices of the people, & his own family particlarly as they had not become full believers in the doctrine.”

The happiness letter was not published until Dec, 1855 within the Church. When we find strong congruences between other sermons and documents that match the rhetoric and theology and ideas in the happiness letter around the same time as its authorship, such seems to strongly indicate that the ideas in the happiness letter were taught pervasively to the early leaders of the church privately. If the happiness letter is a private letter between smith and Nancy Rigdon, why are multiple leaders teaching its concepts abroad? Multiple leaders should not be quoting specific language from a private letter on multiple occasions unless either the letter wasn’t private or the rhetoric wasn’t unique.

Example 1 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology
When Apostle George Q. Cannon preached: “I think that God has created us to be happy” in July 1874,6 he was also apparently referencing the still-uncited 1842 letter’s words (not published in Utah since 1855): “Happiness is the object and design of our existence …”7

Example 2 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology
Apostle John Taylor was also referencing the above (again without attribution) in his March 1872 sermon which referred to “revelation adapted to the peculiar circumstances in which they were placed,” followed nine pages later by his paraphrase about “revelation adapted peculiarly to the position that we occupy.”

Example 3 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology
“In October 1850, Orson Pratt’s Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon referred to “new revelation adapted to the peculiar condition of himself as an individual, and varied at sundry times, according to the change of circumstances …”

Example 4 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology
D. Michael Quinn
“Not until five years later did the Deseret News include in its serialization of “Joseph Smith’s History” the 1842 text that Apostle Pratt was obviously paraphrasing: “This is the principle on which the government of Heaven is conducted, by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed.”4”

Example 5 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology
D. Michael Quinn
six years before J. Golden Kimball quoted from the “Happiness” letter in general conference, the Improvement Era of April 1920 printed Apostle David O. McKay’s sermon which announced: The guiding spirit of life was manifest from the beginning of his [Joseph Smith’s] ministry and confirms his wonderful declaration that God had spoken to him. In his own words[,] it is this: Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire.8

Example 6 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology
Benjamin Johnson:
(From Johnsons autobiography)
He looked at me, oh, so calmly, and said, “Brother Benjamin, you will never see that day, but you shall see the day you will know it is true, and you will fulfill the law and greatly rejoice in it.” And he said, “At this morning’s meeting, I will preach you a sermon that no one but you will understand. And furthermore, I will promise you that when you open your mouth to your sister, it shall be filled.”
At the meeting he read the Parable of the Talents, and showed plainly that to him that hath shall be given more, and from him that had but one should be taken that he seemed to have, and given to him who had ten. This, so far as I could understand, might relate to families.”

Example 7 of Pervasive Teachings of the Happiness Letter Theology
Willard Richards writing to his wife prior to happiness letter – citing the earliest similar rhetoric to the happiness letter and even calling it a grand secret

Intimation of Teaching the keeping of Secrets
“Prest. Smith said all proceedings that regard difficulties should be kept among the members— as to the Institution, its objects are charitable— none can object to telling the good— the evil withhold— hoped all would feel themselves bound to observe this rule.”

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Mormon Discussion: 341: Coffee – A Word of Wisdom Jul 18, 2019

Today I talk about my navigation of the drugs as well as coffee and tea as a teenager including and my eventual abandonment of those things when I join Mormonism and follow Mormonism’s Word of Wisdom. I discuss that after losing belief in Mormonism, the Word of Wisdom becomes just arbitrary rules, no longer upheld by a divine being and hence my desire to go back and re-evaluate what these things mean to me. We focus on coffee and how I have navigated the space of being a coffee drinker. My Morning coffee while I sit at my desk at Family Pawn before we open working on the podcast drinking my homemade cold brew is one of the many highlights of my day. And we end by highlighting a Local (to me) Utah Coffee company, Red Roca Coffee, and explain how to make your own cold brew. Red Roca Coffee was started by a post Mormon in his basement in American Fork Utah. and his brand ties into the post Mormon experience. Below I share all the products I use to make my delicious cold brew coffee and help you get a great deal on Fresh Red Roca Coffee Beans.

Red Roca Coffee and Mormon Discussion have partnered to bring delicious specialty coffee to you at a discounted price. By purchasing Red Roca Coffee with the code AWAKE you will accomplish all of the following
– Get yourself a 10% discount (Use the Code AWAKE)
– Help send a donation of part of the proceeds to Mormon Discussion.
– Support a post Mormon and a local Utah Family Owned business
– Support local Utah artisans
– and any purchase over $30 get free shipping
– Enjoy delicious premium coffee

Items I use to make Cold Brew
– Coffee Bean Grinder
– Glass Jar to store your delicious coffee
– Cold Brew Filters

Videos on How to Make Cold Brew
– Basic concept on smaller scale of how I make mine
– Three ways to make cold brew
– Why Cold Brew and How
– 20 recipes and general info on Cold Brew

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Mormon Discussion: 340: The Little Factory Jul 03, 2019

A friend messages me the other day and says, “your not going to believe this”. “what”, I ask. “The Church has removed Boyd K Packer’s Little Factory Talk”, he informs me. “That’s impossible…. deleting a General conference talk completely…. forever? no way” I tell him……..

Well he was right and today we play that talk and discuss its unhealthy perspectives, we discuss how Apologists defended it, and how with its removal the Church is admitting that the talk is unhealthy and indefensible. It has in spite of it being the backdrop of so much shame around sexuality imposed on young Latter-day Saints and its having widespread use and approval by general leadership and church publications, effectively become the philosophies of Men mingled with scripture.

Closing Song
Artist: Disturbed
Title: The Sound of Silence

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**Mormon Discussion Podcast: 339: My Amazing Wife Amanda Reel** Jun 21, 2019
It has been a long time coming, but my wife Amanda and I sat down to have a conversation about our journey. We tell our combined story as a couple and what our life journey has looked like. Be patient with both of us, My wife is much more introverted when it comes to a conversation she knows will be heard and dissected in the public arena and hence I likely spoke a little too much in parts in order to add details to our story where she left off and to help when her answers are short. It comes off as me overshadowing her and while there is probably a little truth to that, she also would self admit this is not a comfortable space for her. That said she comes off brilliantly and we both really enjoyed this conversation.

The post Mormon Discussion Podcast: 339: My Amazing Wife Amanda Reel appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 338: Jessica Foutz – Developmental Tools** May 29, 2019
We sit down today with Jessica Foutz. Jessica is a dear friend of mine who I have known for several years. I have watched Jessica go from having her Mormon Shelf crash to seeing her dive into Faith and Cognitive development along with her deep interest in wise voices speaking to growth and development like Richard Rohr, Thomas McConkie, Rob Bell, and many others. This deep and profound shift has resulted in her having a wise voice herself. She has written the paper “10 Important Things to Know About Stages of Human Cognitive Development“. Jessica cares about human beings and today she shares her ten tips for leaning into development.

**Resources:**

Jessica’s document outlining Developmental tips and tools

Shadow Work

Mormon Stages of Faith and Development

The Build-A-Brain-Program

The post Mormon Discussion: 338: Jessica Foutz – Developmental Tools appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 337: The Evolutionary Need for Community and A Better Tribe** May 08, 2019
Today I want to talk about tribes and community. About the “we” of family and friends. The “we” of religious tribes. How intimacy is the secret ingredient of small tribes (25 or less), gossip the secret of medium sized tribes(25 to 150) and myth for large tribes (150+) I talk about leaving a tribe when fitting in (presenting a false version of yourself) is too painful, and how we all want to “belong” ( be and present yourself fully and still be accepted). And I end talking about my tribe right here and now!
we mention briefly about how humans across the ages have navigated community and tribalism and why it is so crucial and inside our evolutionary DNA. We have survived better in small tribes that trusted each other and as we grew we moved from Intimacy to Gossip to Myth. And how once we remove the threats of the wild, we desire to move back to intimate tribalism.

**Resources:**
Why Myth is useful and separates Humans from other animals More on Gossip and Myth and their usefulness More on Gossip as a binding force What gave rise to gossip Gossip as a social skill Intimacy as a binding force Intimacy within social relationships
The post Mormon Discussion: 337: The Evolutionary Need for Community and A Better Tribe appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

PREMIUM: Stages of Faith: South Edmonton Alliance Apr 17, 2019

This Episode is Audio from outside the Mormon Discussion Podcasts. This is a sermon from another faith on “Stages of Faith”.
We revisit a series where we have taken audio where those of other faiths work to explain and teach the stages of faith. Today is the South Edmonton Alliance.

Here is a sermon given in their Church on the Stages of Faith

The post PREMIUM: Stages of Faith: South Edmonton Alliance appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

PREMIUM: Stages of Faith: Adam Ellis Apr 17, 2019

This Episode is Audio from outside the Mormon Discussion Podcasts. This is a sermon from another faith on “Stages of Faith”.
We revisit a series where we have taken audio where those of other faiths work to explain and teach the stages of faith. Today is a Sermon from Adam Ellis

Here is a sermon given in their Church on the Stages of Faith

The post PREMIUM: Stages of Faith: Adam Ellis appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormon Discussion: 336: Sacred Experiences and Religious Context Apr 17, 2019

Today I share with the audience my top 6 spiritual experiences that have occurred in my life. In telling these experiences, I recognize there will be voices on both sides who think they know better than me what they mean or how I should interpret them. But I share them and often give other contextual details into my life as they surrounded these events. I hope in this episode you might enjoy getting to know me better but that you also sense just how strong spiritual experiences can be and yet once faced with spirituality and where and when it occurs, be able to untangle it from the religious constructs of the system in which you experienced these spiritual moments.

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**Mormon Discussion: 335: Hans Mattsson – A Crisis of Truth** Apr 13, 2019

Today we Sit down with former LDS Area Authority Hans Mattsson. As Hans begin reading into the deeper history of Mormonism and as other approached him with their historical questions, Hans sensed that the Church’s narrative didn’t hold up and that the tough questions did not have satisfactory answers. Hans took his concerns to the upper leadership of the Church and on November 28, 2010 LDS Church Historian Marlin Jensen and assistant historian Richard Turley gave a presentation where they attempted to provide answers to questions asked by Hans Mattsson and other members in Sweden. Today We talk with Hans about all of that and where he is today and what he makes of Mormonism having stepped away.

Mormon Stories Interview with Mattsson
NY Times Article
Swedish Rescue

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Mormon Discussion: 334: The Letter That started It All Mar 27, 2019

Today we share what set us down the path to the events that led to my Excommunication. Today I read a letter I sent to members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve 2 years ago. In this letter I lay out what I believe are the top 5 issues facing the Church in the present moment. LGBT issues, Women’s Issues, History, Prophetic Fallibility, and Transparency. It was this letter that led top Church leaders to inform my Stake president at the time that they believed I was “in apostasy” and that “a disciplinary council may be needed”.

RESOURCES:

You can read the letter yourself HERE

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**Jim Bennett and Bill Reel and the Issues of the CES Letter Part 7** Mar 13, 2019
We sit down with Jim Bennett, son of former Utah Senator Bob Bennett, to discuss Jim’s response to the CES Letter. This interview takes place over several different days and comprises looking at the troublesome issues the CES Letter presents and reviewing where Jeremy Runnells and Jim Bennett disagree. I try to play a mediator between Jim and the ideas of the CES letter. Granting ground where I think Jim offers a reasonable response as well as pushing back where I think the CES Letter presents a credible case.

In part 7 we revisit our 6 part interview and talk about how tone and format plays a part in his response to the CES letter as well as a very different tone and format he had with our conversation. Very quickly Jim addresses how my publicizing the 6 part interview and my commentary and the commentary of other voices framed these 6 parts was frustrating to him as he felt he was misrepresented in what he conceded and what he didn’t. This sent us down an unplanned road of the discussing how tenable and vulnerable Mormonism’s narrative may be in a long form real time conversation. This was my favorite out of the whole set of conversations.
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**Mormon Discussion: 332: Mekael & Kelsey Part 3** Mar 06, 2019
We sit down to complete the trifecta third part interview with my best of friends Mekael and Kelsey. We pick up where these two meet and how their relationship blooms and what led them to have met me and our incredible friends Chris and Dawn. We spend some time discussing what things look like on this side of the journey including growth and development, how we have built a new tribe better than the one we left, and how important Authenticity and Vulnerability have been in creating community!
IF you want to reach Mekael or Kelsey, email me at reelmormon AT gmail DOT com and I will forward it on and if your in Southern Utah and want to meet my awesome friends and me, let me know.

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**Mormon Discussion: 331: Kelsey Part 2** Mar 06, 2019
In episode 2 my beautiful friend Kelsey tells us her story. How she was loved and supported by an incredible family and but inside Mormonism we still have to look a certain way and fit a certain mold. Kelsey tells us how she knew she was lesbian very early but always shoved it down in order to please those around her as well as fit into her Mormon faith system. She too married a man and and made a go of it trying so hard to do this Mormon thing. In the end it didn’t work nor was it ever going to.

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**Mormon Discussion: 330: Mekael Part 1** Mar 06, 2019
Today we sit down with my dear friend Mekael. This episode is part 1 of a 3 part series. Mekael helps us see into her life where from the time she is a child she seeks to fit in, to make her family proud and to make her faith system proud of her. But she was destined not to fit. Discovering she was a lesbian trapped in a religious system that simply could not sit comfortably with who she was at her core. She tells us of her childhood and her struggle to fit in and how she in an effort to make those around her proud and to fit in she tried so hard to do this Mormon thing. She married a man and for almost 20 years she tried to make that work. Her emotional well being took hits along the way and eventually it became too much. After consider taking her life, she made the decision to lean into who she was at her core. Her marriage dissolved and we leave off at the end of episode 1 recognizing that we all deserve to have a safe space to be who we are and to be valued and seen and honored for our story.

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Mormon Discussion: 329: Take Your Vitamin Pills and Get Some Rest Mar 02, 2019

Doing this podcast and being a public voice, people reach out to you to share “secret” information. Today I tell you what I am hearing from inside the Church Office Building is being discussed in regard to future changes. I also share a deeply unhealthy story of how the Church allegedly informed Kem Gardner with inside information about how City Creek Mall was going to diminish the value of his Gateway project and how Kem thanked the Church by alledgedly gifting a impressive piece of property to the Church and specifically Elder Uchtdorf.

Below are the predictions I am making based on those inside sources and the story line of the alledged details of City Creek versus the Gateway Project

City Creek Mall Story

* Gateway Project starts around 2002 and includes a state of the art Mall. This project is headed up by the Boyer Group headed up by Roger Boyer and Kem Gardner

* The Church purchases the land for City creek Mall in 2003 by a private real estate arm of the Church.

* The Church allegedly informs Kem Gardner out of respect for their relationship that he should consider getting out of the Gateway Project as its value is going to be diminished.

* In 2004 Kem Gardner sells his interest in the Boyer Group allegedly for 43 Million dollars

* In 2006 The Church announces is City Creek project

* The Church allegedly gets push-back from Nordstrom’s and other Anchor stores it needs for City Creek to be a success and seeing the writing on the wall regarding City Creek falling flat on their face, rushes in and offers Nordstrom’s and other Anchor stores an incredible deal to lure them in. Allegedly the deal was the first 10 years of the lease of space in City Creek Mall would be free and the employees who worked at that store would have their wages paid for 3 years.

* Kem Gardner allegedly grateful for the information, allegedly gifts a upscale log cabin to the Church, specifically, Elder Dieter F Uchtdorf for a reported price of $1

Changes allegedly being discussed at present inside the Church Office Building
These changes are being discussed which means some will happen and some won’t. Some will likely happen in the next year or two and others will trickle in over the next decade or two. Also simply discussing these compels the Church to push them back

1. Church trying to make room for members to partake of Coffee and Tea
2. Having the Garment worn inside the temple only
3. To revamp the Missionary system making Service Missions and/or Local Missions prominent
4. Decentralize the financial responsibilities of the Church geographically.
5. Women will be given significant increased roles (Women giving blessings to be formally seen as approved), recent change for Mothers of Young Children to serve as ordinance workers for example of a small change heading that direction.
6. Increase dramatically in visible charitable giving to outside charities and outside humanitarian efforts
7. Changes to the office/mode of operation of Patriarch being discussed
8. Heavenly Mother will be given a significantly increased role in the conversation and theology within correlated Mormonism.
9. Significant changes made to ensure Bishops and Stake Presidents receive significant training. (Anything from multiple weeks of in-depth training to even a full-time trained clergy in regards to Bishops and Stake Presidents)
10. RS General Presidency continually has its visibility increased and effort made to add value to their voices and the voice of women. (while maintaining the top 15’s own authority and nepotism to ultimately lead the Church)
11. Create a group of women that would act similarly to the quorums of Seventy (travel and be involved in committees and have a voice in decision making at levels lower than the top 15)
12. Age for women going on missions to be lowered to 18 as well or men moved back up to 19 to make them equal in this regard.
13. Separate Marriages from Sealing to allow a couple to be married publicly and sealed immediately afterward in a separate act.
14. Additional Policy adjustments to protect the Church’s public image in Sex abuse cases.
15. I was missing a #15 in the audio but will add it here – Your going to see further adjustments to the scriptures to remove sections of language from the D&C, heading etc. and or add in language to headings ect. to confront the growing evidence against the former claims of the Church and a growing discomfort with our overreaching.
16. The Ward Library and the calling of Librarian eliminated in areas that have quality access to technology.
17. Adjust callings that have room to not require Priesthood to allow for female leadership (Ex: Sunday School Presidency)
18. Do away with or control who speaks in Fast and Testimony Meeting
19. Allow equivalent aged Girls to pass the Sacrament where the congregation lacks adequate priesthood.
20. Remove multiple cultural boundaries imposed as Mormonism but which are acknowledged as American culture and unnecessary. (Ex: allowing a wider range of instruments used in Church meetings)
21. A New Handbook of instruction is coming
22. Temple Recommend bar-codes will be connected to a photo so the uses of recommends by someone other than who the recommend belongs to can be thwarted.
23. Young Adult/Older Teen service Projects away from home that give a young member a significant experience making the world better but also connected directly to the Church. A mini service mission per say
24. There are now concrete discussions occurring asking how we move towards more inclusivity towards LGBTQ members.

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**Jim Bennett and Bill Reel and the Issues of the CES Letter Part 6** Feb 21, 2019

We sit down with Jim Bennett, son of former Utah Senator Bob Bennett, to discuss Jim’s response to the CES Letter. This interview takes place over several different days and comprises looking at the troublesome issues the CES Letter presents and reviewing where Jeremy Runnells and Jim Bennett disagree. I try to play a mediator between Jim and the ideas of the CES letter. Granting ground where I think Jim offers a reasonable response as well as pushing back where I think the CES Letter presents a credible case.
In part 6 we tackle the Prophetic Mantle including the lack of Prophesy, Seer-ship, and Revelation, The Church lack’s of wisdom and Vulnerability, and the significant harm it does with little willingness to be open to admitting its wrong. We also tackle whether Priesthood power has any measurable influence. We lastly speak on Spiritual witnesses and whether they are a reasonable way to decide truth when compared with our fundamentalist splinter group cousins and their experiences and the spiritual experiences the rest of the world is having.

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**Jim Bennett and Bill Reel and the Issues of the CES Letter Part 5** Feb 21, 2019

We sit down with Jim Bennett, son of former Utah Senator Bob Bennett, to discuss Jim’s response to the CES Letter. This interview takes place over several different days and comprises looking at the troublesome issues the CES Letter presents and reviewing where Jeremy Runnells and Jim Bennett disagree. I try to play a mediator between Jim and the ideas of the CES letter. Granting ground where I think Jim offers a reasonable response as well as pushing back where I think the CES Letter presents a credible case.

In part 5 we tackle Race and the Priesthood, The Church’s changing stance and present Doctrine and policies on Homosexuality and LGBT issues, and end beginning to get into the Prophetic mantle of LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

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**Jim Bennett and Bill Reel and the Issues of the CES Letter Part 4** Feb 21, 2019

We sit down with Jim Bennett, son of former Utah Senator Bob Bennett, to discuss Jim’s response to the CES Letter. This interview takes place over several different days and comprises looking at the troublesome issues the CES Letter presents and reviewing where Jeremy Runnells and Jim Bennett disagree. I try to play a mediator between Jim and the ideas of the CES letter. Granting ground where I think Jim offers a reasonable response as well as pushing back where I think the CES Letter presents a credible case.

In part 4 we tackle Joseph Smith’s Polygamy in depth.

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**Jim Bennett and Bill Reel and the Issues of the CES Letter Part 3** Feb 21, 2019

We sit down with Jim Bennett, son of former Utah Senator Bob Bennett, to discuss Jim’s response to the CES Letter. This interview takes place over several different days and comprises looking at the troublesome issues the CES Letter presents and reviewing where Jeremy Runnells and Jim Bennett disagree. I try to play a mediator between Jim and the ideas of the CES letter. Granting ground where I think Jim offers a reasonable response as well as pushing back where I think the CES Letter presents a credible case.

In part 3 we tackle The Book of Abraham and begin to get into Joseph Smith’s Polygamy.

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**Jim Bennett and Bill Reel and the Issues of the CES Letter Part 2** Feb 21, 2019

We sit down with Jim Bennett, son of former Utah Senator Bob Bennett, to discuss Jim’s response to the CES Letter. This interview takes place over several different days and comprises looking at the troublesome issues the CES Letter presents and reviewing where Jeremy Runnells and Jim Bennett disagree. I try to play a mediator between Jim and the ideas of the CES letter. Granting ground where I think Jim offers a reasonable response as well as pushing back where I think the CES Letter presents a credible case.

In part 2 we tackle other issues in the Book of Mormon including the presence of 19th century material in all of Joseph translation productions, the 11 witnesses, and anachronisms. We then start to get into the Book of Abraham and touch on ideas like Prophetic fallibility and Spiritual witness, topics we hope to dive into deeper as we continue the conversation.

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**Jim Bennett and Bill Reel and the Issues of the CES Letter Part 1** Feb 21, 2019

We sit down with Jim Bennett, son of former Utah Senator Bob Bennett, to discuss Jim’s response to the CES Letter. This interview takes place over several different days and comprises looking at the troublesome issues the CES Letter presents and reviewing where Jeremy Runnells and Jim Bennett disagree. I try to play a mediator between Jim and the ideas of the CES letter. Granting ground where I think Jim offers a reasonable response as well as pushing back where I think the CES Letter presents a credible case.

In part 1 Jim gives us a history of him and his father and the why of his response to Jeremy Runnells CES Letter. We then tackle Joseph Smith’s Treasure Digging, The First Vision, and begin to get into the multiple aspects of the Book of Mormon including Translation and the level of absurdity in some of the narrative’s stories.

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**Mormon Discussion: 322: Elder Pearson – Will You Leave The Savior** Feb 13, 2019
Today we dissect Elder Pearson’s talk “Will You Leave The Savior“(Ensign August 2018) that he gave at BYU Idaho (Originally titled “The Lens of Truth“). In this talk there are so many logical fallacies, Wood Tools, and problematic assertions that It took little effort to dissect and expose this talk as unhealthy and not useful to a sincere truth seeker. May you enjoy!!!

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Mormon Discussion: 321: Elder Holland and The Maxwell Institute Feb 06, 2019

Today we dissect Elder Holland’s November 10, 2018 address directly to the Maxwell Institute. It seemed very much like a rebuke an an effort to embarrass those at the Maxwell Institute for moving towards objectivity and forthrightness and emphasizing real scholarship over defensive apologetics. It even includes encouragement from Elder Holland to choose faithful renditions over objective scholarship and a with-holding of the full story when one’s loyalty calls for it…. who would of thunk it!!!

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320: Troy and Shari Marsh – The Truth That Can’t Be Said Jan 23, 2019

Today we sit down with Troy Marsh and his wife Shari. Troy is a listener of Mormon Discussion and an active Latter Day Saint who finds trying to reconcile the messiness of Mormonism as a wasted cause. By no means is he a Orthodox Mormon. In fact he would openly acknowledge that Mormonism is only one path among a million paths for a viable spirituality. In other words that Mormonism is not seen by him as the only true Church but rather as a tool among many tools a human being could utilize to form their spiritual walk. Shari on the other hand has never been Mormon and share what that walk looks like outside of Mormonism. In this episode we discuss the spirituality of the African Kalahari Bushman, discuss the pros and cons of using Mormonism as a tool rather than the as the Lord’s one true path, and we discuss that truth which can not be named.

RESOURCES:

Bushman Way of Tracking God PDF

Bushman Way of Tracking God Book

Keeney’s American Shamanism

Video of Bushman Spirituality

Joseph Hart Spiritual Autobiography

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**Mythical Jesus: 023: John Shelby Spong – Value Beyond Biblical Literalness** Jan 14, 2019

Today We sit down with Bishop John Shelby Spong. Jack is a retired American bishop of the Episcopal Church. From 1979 to 2000 he was Bishop of Newark (based in Newark, New Jersey). He is a liberal Christian theologian, religion commentator and author. He calls for a fundamental rethinking of Christian belief away from theism and traditional doctrines. We talk to Bishop Spong about his life, his own faith journey, and what he sees as the problems with Christian fundamentalism. We talk about how dynamic growth is not the measuring stick for is a Christian Church is healthy. We talk about the deconstruction of one’s faith and how one can stay in the spiritual wrestle and not throw in the towel even as one’s religious framing falls apart. If you have not ever heard of Bishop Spong can we suggest several enlightening venues to get to know him better?

**Resources:**
Bishop Spong’s views on Jesus, the gosepl, and the New Testament

Bishop Spong’s Criticism of Biblical Literalness

Bishop Spong’s recasting the story of Jesus

Debate between Bishop Spong and James White. This debate is a great model of of two intelligent and informed people coming to a discussion holding different developmental ground. One is a very Binary/outer authority/literal believer and the other anon-literal, nuanced/with Inner authority.

**Books by Bishop John Shelby Spong:**

Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy: A Journey into a New Christianity

Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile

Jesus for the Non-Religious

Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy

Unbelievable: Why Neither Ancient Creeds Nor the Reformation Can Produce a Living Faith Today

Re-Claiming the Bible for a Non-Religious World

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Mormon Discussion: 319: Spencer Wright – The Rationality of Mormonism Dec 12, 2018

Today we have author and former Mormon Spencer Wright back on the program to dive into the weeds. Last time we talked with Spencer about his book “How to think” and we explored what it means to be a rational thinker. ( 309: Spencer Wright – Rational Thought and Bat Shit Crazy ) Today we dive into 5 or so issues directly within Mormonism and explore the the orthodox view of those issues and then share why that piece of the dominant narrative does not hold up and follow it up with the apologetic response and then Spencer helps us see why any view other than the critical framing is irrational.

RESOURCES:
https://www.facebook.com/HowToThinkBook/

Free E-copy of the Book

“How To Think” Book on Amazon

Kerry Muhlstein admitting starting with the conclusion – https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2014/book-abraham-unnoticed-assumptions

Book of Abraham explained simply

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Mormon Discussion: 318: Crystal Scott – Genetics of Sex and Gender Dec 12, 2018

At the 2018 Sandy Utah Sunstone Symposium I sat in a session about the genetics of Sex and Gender. The presenter was Crystal Scott, a is a embryologist. Crystal got her start at the University of Virginia. She works in the industry creating high-value babies and teaching genetics at Boise State University. Today we spend time diving into these complexities and how understanding that Sex and Gender are not understood in Binary ways requires us to hold space for the possibility that Truth may not be congruent with our Theology and Doctrine. If we find that to be true should we impose our Theology and Doctrine anyway or are we required to make space for additional truth. Especially if said false Theology and Doctrine hurts and harms others. Can you listen today with a soft heart. Can you hold space for those who are different. Can make room to be wrong. All that and more on today’s episode of Mormon Discussion.

Her Sunstone Powerpoint Presentation – CLICK HERE

RESOURCES:

Sex, Gender and Genetics

Sexual… dimorphism??
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/(SICI)1520-
6300(200003/04)12:2%3C151::AID-AJHB1%3E3.0.CO;2-F

Genetic components of Sex and Gender:
This is an exhaustive compliation by the World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Genetics, Sexual Orientation and Behavioral genetics:
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index2.html

The Transgender Brain, Jan 1, 2016
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-
transgender-brain/

More bran imaging for cis-v-transgender brains
https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25392513

No longer considered a mental health issue:
https://www.glaad.org/blog/apa-removes-gender-identity-disorder-updated-mental-health-guide

Brain connections and cis –v- trans:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4585501/

Homsexual Men with differences between homosexual, bisexual and heterosexual brains:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286516/

https://www.psypost.org/2017/04/neuroimaging-study-shows-brain-activity-corresponds-mens-self-stated-sexual-orientations-48620

Homsexual Men with differences between homosexual, bisexual and heterosexual brains:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29330483

About finger length:
https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/why-finger-size-matters-19691231/

differences in identical twins with opposing sexuality:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-018-1262-

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**Bill Reel – Disciplinary Court Is Imminent** Nov 15, 2018
It has finally happened. I received a disciplinary notice from my stake president. Would those who feel any attachment to this podcast or to me, would you please send positive thoughts into the universe for my family and friends. I always knew that full honesty and transparency and shining a light on unhealthiness and deception would eventually end with me being severed from my tribe. But many around me expected better from the Church and are feeling hurt by this latest detail to transpire. If you have a desire to contact me please email me at ReelMormon AT gmail DOT com.

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**Mormon Discussion: 317: Dowsing Rods, Banded Jasper, and Gizzard Stones** Nov 05, 2018
Today we tell a story. This story involves the Seer Stone used for the translation of the Book of Mormon but a story you likely have never heard. We set all the messiness of Mormonism aside and instead focus deeply on the Seer Stone itself. This small rock has a history of its own and that history runs billions of years into the past. Find out today on Mormon Discussion how Dowsing Rods, Banded Iron Jasper, and Gizzard Stones all play a major role in Joseph Smith finding perhaps the most unique stone on planet Earth!

Resources:

Dan Vogel – Chapter 4 Slippery Treasures

The Surprising Geology of Joseph Smith’s Brown Seer Stone

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**Mormon Discussion: 316: Elder Holland – Liar Liar Pants on Fire** Nov 01, 2018
Today we explore Elder Holland. First I discuss the personal relationship Elder Holland and I have/had. The trouble is once the biased lens of Mormonism was shed from my eyes I began to realize something else about Elder Holland which is that he seems to be deceptive and flat out lying on multiple occasions. And often about small things that seemed to indicate a person who easily decides and chooses to exaggerate and deceive. We review five examples in this episode and some of this are absolutely demonstrable.

1.) Elder Holland claims to hold the very copy of the book of Mormon that bethsheba, Hyrum Smith wife, had in her possession from which Hyrum Smith the prophets brother read to her and had turned the corner of the page down from where he read. The problem is that the copy Elder Holland holds up in his hand at General conference is distinctly different from the copy in the Church History department claimed to be the same book.
**RESOURCES:**
– https://www.flickr.com/photos/nickleus/sets/72157623567278714/
– Safety for the Soul conference Talk
– http://www.salamandersociety.com/foyer/prophets/jeffreyrholland/

2.) Elder Holland when asked about the Church’s contribution to Prop 8 says that the Church did not give “One Red Cent” to the fight against Same Sex Marriage in California. Problem is it gave a reported amount of almost $200,000. Some want to debate over whether it was cash or in kind donations but to battle over rhetoric seems to be a sly way to find a loophole.
**RESOURCES:**
– https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8
– https://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-karger/mormongate—-the-churchs_b_163016.html
– http://www.missedinsunday.com/memes/lgbtq/proposition-8/
– https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html
– https://www.dailydot.com/irl/mormon-church-gay-marriage-prop-8/

3.) Elder Holland tells a faith promoting story about a missionary who out on his mission is led by the spirit to his older brother who had severed his relationship with his family years earlier. Elder Holland had told this story for years and other General Authorities before him had shared it. The problem is the story was a false faith promoting narrative. Each telling contained different contradicting details and too far fetched too believe of a story-line. Soon after the Deseret News picked up on the story, the far fetched details began to be questioned by critical thinking Mormons and Elder Holland through the Deseret News and Church PR quickly distanced himself from the story. But even his side of how he came to learn the story was inaccurate is problematic.
**RESOURCES:**
– Cache of Original Story
– https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865685840/Elder-Holland-withdraws-Church-News-missionary-story.html
– Radio Free Mormon Episode detailing the deception
– http://kuer.org/post/mormon-apostle-withdraws-embellished-story#stream/0
– Bill Reel’s questioning the validity before Elder Holland’s retraction

4.) Elder Holland when asked directly whether Mitt Romney would have made penalty oaths in the temple answers NO. Problem, such is a flat out lie.
**RESOURCES:**
– Youtube Clip showing the lie
– https://www.cityweekly.net/BuzzBlog/archives/2012/06/05/bbc-interview-with-lds-leader-earns-controversy
– https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/7c2tuq/did_holland_lie_semantic_analysis_of_jeffrey_r/
– Jonathon Streeter’s dissection of this event

5.) Elder Holland in a Regional meeting claims that the Church is growing in such a rate that it is creating Double Digit NEW Stake creation “every week of our lives”. The Problem is that the Church every year tells us the number of stakes in the Church at year end of the previous year. Elder Holland made this claim in early 2015 And from 2015 through 2017 the church consistently averaged 1.6 new stakes per week. This makes a fifth lie with this one being deeply demonstrable.
**RESOURCES:**
– The Youtube video of his claim
– Apologetic response – The owner of this blog is trying to reconcile the claim and as you will see relies on anectdotal data as he struggles to have any real source for the claim further showing how much of a stretch the claim is
– Conversation by Bill Reel searching for a way to reconcile this issue
– Data exploration on this issue
– Bill Reel Facebook post on such

In conclusion one is left with their jaw on the floor trying to figure out why Elder Jeffrey R Holland is an habitual liar.

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Mormon Discussion: 313: Unhealthy Mechanisms That Deter You From Speaking Out Oct 17, 2018

On today’s episode we explore the mechanisms within Mormonism that deter you from speaking your truth. We talk about the pressure to either soften your rhetoric or be silent all-together. Once you grasp how pervasive such is, you may want to reconsider falling for it.

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**Mechanisms Of Silence And Changed Rhetoric** Oct 17, 2018
On today’s episode we explore the mechanisms within Mormonism that deter you from speaking your truth. We talk about the pressure to either soften your rhetoric or be silent all-together. Once you grasp how pervasive such is, you may want to reconsider falling for it.

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Mormon Discussion: 314: Culture of Unhealthiness Oct 17, 2018

Today we get in a metaphorical hot air balloon and rise up to look at the 20,000 foot view of the culture of abuse within Mormonism at the present moment. We use three issues to demonstrate that the Mormon Church has exercised unrighteous dominion in three areas. We look at Sam Young’s effort to eliminate One on One interviews and questions of a sexual nature to the youth of the Church to show that the Church desires to protect its ability to shame and distort healthy boundaries of members of the Church as young as seven years old. We also utilize McKenna Denson’s case against the Church to show the lengths the Church will go to protect its own and to cover up the abuse and trauma of others. Lastly we look at the Church’s political influence over law enforcement, legislators, and the judicial system inside Utah. Once you take the 20,000 ft view of these issues you begin to sense the deep unhealthiness that exists with the LDS Church in its abuse over members and its ability to utilize Utah government to cover up and shield itself from accountability from said abuse you begin to see the urgency of why things have to change.

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Mormon Discussion: 312: 2018 General Conference Rumors, Predictions, and Why!!! Oct 01, 2018

So many of the public voices have their sources for inside info. I like them have mine. Recently I was made aware of several potential announcements coming out from General Conference about about a week ago. Today’s Episode dives into the Rumors that are out there, the Inside info I have, and the reasons why these changes would happen. I am more certain about some of these, less certain about others, but for the nuanced, liberal, or non-believing Mormon such things make tolerating conference more bearable and almost interesting!!!

1.) Males and Females can go on Missions at 18 and serve 24 months: these combats the severe decline in the # of Missionaries serving.

2.) The One year waiting period across the board if one has a civil marriage first. – The removes the tension this is causing many and relieves one item on the shelf of some who step back due to Mormonism’s abusive mechanisms.

3.) Going to a 2 hour block as the standard. This relieves those who are overly burdened in callings and it allows a ward to get by with less people due to the exodus of members. It also allows those who don’t feel uplifted to more easily justify continued attendance.

4.) Missionaries to serve only in the country they live.

5.) for those going through the endowment for the dead, reducing the endowment session to 1 hour. Again reducing the burden and boredom of younger members who lack the same blind commitment to the Church that their parents and grandparents had.

6.) This one seems mundane but is at the heart of the rumors. The SLC Temple will close for a 5 year renovation. If this one comes to pass, I trust the other 5 even if not implemented are being discussed in depth in top Church circles

7.) The temple interview made less rigid and less about keeping belief standards to accommodate a younger generation walking away from activity and adherence to Church standards.

The post Mormon Discussion: 312: 2018 General Conference Rumors, Predictions, and Why!!! appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormon Discussion: 311: Youth Homelessness in Utah and What is Being Done – Youth Futures Oct 01, 2018

Today we interview Krista Whipple, managing director of Youth Futures St. George Utah. Youth Futures provides housing along with tools, resources, and education to both prevent and help Youth Homelessness in Utah and the St. George area specifically. Mormon Discussion has teamed up with Youth Futures to help them raise money. Mormon Discussion has donated $100 to the cause and will donate an additional $10 for every $100 donated by a listener. You can donate today by visiting https://www.classy.org/give/106969/#!/donation/checkout Once there enter “Bill Reel” on the line that says “Would you like to credit this donation to a specific fundraiser or team (optional)?” and Mormon Discussion will appear. Then continue to fill out the donation information, click “Make Your Doantion” and wahlah…. you have contributed to a great cause. If you live in Southern Utah and want to donate your time to helping prevent Youth Homelessness please click http://www.youthfuturesutah.org/index.php/get-involved/volunteer

These kids need our help. Thanks for your support!!!

The post Mormon Discussion: 311: Youth Homelessness in Utah and What is Being Done – Youth Futures appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 310: Translate, You Keep using that Word** Sep 26, 2018
Today on Mormon Discussion we take a collective look at Joseph Smith Productions via Translation
– The Kinderhook plates
– The Book of Abraham
– The Book of Moses
– The Inspired Translation of the Bible
– The Book of Mormon

Once we see that in every case the production is not what the Church claimed it was, we are left to redefine translation and to make space for less than historic relationship between us and the sacred texts of our faith.

The post Mormon Discussion: 310: Translate, You Keep using that Word appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Special Episode: The Dissection of Elder Quentin L Cook’s Face To Face On Church History** Sep 16, 2018

Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel get together for a special Episode discussion on Elder Quentin L. Cook’s Face To Face On Church History. While Elder Cook and Church Historians Matt Grow and Kate Holbrook attempt to tell the audience that Church history is faith building and that it can withstand scrutiny, a simple look at what they say and more importantly what they don’t say seems to deeply indicate otherwise. There is even cameo Appearances by Elder Ballard, Church historian Steven Harper, and even a sound blip from the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Sit back and buckle up as we learn that when it comes to Church leaders and the Church’s historians that “Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin'”.

The post Special Episode: The Dissection of Elder Quentin L Cook’s Face To Face On Church History appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**How To Not Answer Questions On Church History With Steven Harper Part 2** Aug 19, 2018
Today we dissect the Mormon Channel’s video titled “How to Answer Questions about Church History” hosted by Amy Iverson where she interviews Steven Harper on how he as a Church Historian deals with tough issues within Church history.

You might expect a Church historian who is on such a program due to his immersion and professional understanding of LDS Church History to use Church history to show that the tough questions have solid answers. You might expect him to encourage members who come across a tough issue to dive deeper, to find original sources, or refer them to the Gospel Topic Essays, or at least the Joseph Smith Papers Project as he had a major hand in it. You might expect him pick out a few tough issues and then show how a more informed understanding of Church history helps to sort these issues out. BUT…… As you will see he does anything but this.

– Notice his hesitancy to discuss the specifics of Church history. He seems to, as a Church historian, not want to talk about Church history, and it feels his reason is he senses there is little there to build faith on.

– Notice when asked if Church history has built faith and has resolved his questions he constantly deflects from answering such questions directly and imposes that his testimony is not based in Church history.

– Notice his progression from A.) Questions always resolve themselves B.) We have some questions that are yet unresolved but We have a lot of answers and I have faith the unresolved will yet be resolved. C.) There are both several questions resolved as well as several questions unresolved. D.) I have way more questions than answers and the more I learn Church history, the unresolved questions grow exponentially. and finally where he ends up E.) I hate to burst your bubble but dealing with the data causes us to reconstruct the Church in ways that have our faith in “what the Church is” being similar to how we reconcile Christmas after deconstructing the literalness of Santa Claus.

While Amy imposes that Church history has been, to Steven Harper, “an illumination to his soul”. Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel’s analysis shows it to have been anything but.

In the end it becomes obvious that not only does a Church historian avoid using Church history to resolve concerns, but also that he realizes avoiding Church history is the only way to tackle the difficult questions as to dive into the history is anything but faith promoting.

The post How To Not Answer Questions On Church History With Steven Harper Part 2 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**How To Not Answer Questions On Church History With Steven Harper Part 1** Aug 19, 2018
Today we dissect the Mormon Channel’s video titled “How to Answer Questions about Church History” hosted by Amy Iverson where she interviews Steven Harper on how he as a Church Historian deals with tough issues within Church history.

You might expect a Church historian who is on such a program due to his immersion and professional understanding of LDS Church History to use Church history to show that the tough questions have solid answers. You might expect him to encourage members who come across a tough issue to dive deeper, to find original sources, or refer them to the Gospel Topic Essays, or at least the Joseph Smith Papers Project as he had a major hand in it. You might expect him pick out a few tough issues and then show how a more informed understanding of Church history helps to sort these issues out. BUT…… As you will see he does anything but this.

– Notice his hesitancy to discuss the specifics of Church history. He seems to, as a Church historian, not want to talk about Church history, and it feels his reason is he senses there is little there to build faith on.

– Notice when asked if Church history has built faith and has resolved his questions he constantly deflects from answering such questions directly and imposes that his testimony is not based in Church history.

– Notice his progression from A.) Questions always resolve themselves B.) We have some questions that are yet unresolved but We have a lot of answers and I have faith the unresolved will yet be resolved. C.) There are both several questions resolved as well as several questions unresolved. D.) I have way more questions than answers and the more I learn Church history, the unresolved questions grow exponentially. and finally where he ends up E.) I hate to burst your bubble but dealing with the data causes us to reconstruct the Church in ways that have our faith in “what the Church is” being similar to how we reconcile Christmas after deconstructing the literalness of Santa Claus.

While Amy imposes that Church history has been, to Steven Harper, “an illumination to his soul”. Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel’s analysis shows it to have been anything but.

In the end it becomes obvious that not only does a Church historian avoid using Church history to resolve concerns, but also that he realizes avoiding Church history is the only way to tackle the difficult questions as to dive into the history is anything but faith promoting.

The post How To Not Answer Questions On Church History With Steven Harper Part 1 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 309: Spencer Wright – Rational Thought and Bat Shit Crazy** Aug 18, 2018
Today We sit down with Spencer Wright, author of “How To Think”, and discuss how Faith and Rational thought are actually opposites. That as soon as we have to make allowances for less likely answers and solutions or even the moment we say “its possible” we have now begun irrational thinking. Spencer helps us put words and framing to something we have sensed for a long time. Which is that none of us should have to tolerate harm and trauma caused irrational thinking and Spencer gives us the tools to know the very moment the conversation has entered the irrational arena. People are free to believe what they want, but never should we as a society allow segments of our society to be hurt or have trauma inflicted by those who use irrational thinking as their reasons.

**RESOURCES:**
https://www.facebook.com/HowToThinkBook/

Free E-copy of the Book

“How To Think” Book on Amazon

Kerry Muhlstein admitting starting with the conclusion – https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2014/book-abraham-unnoticed-assumptions

Book of Abraham explained simply

The post Mormon Discussion: 309: Spencer Wright – Rational Thought and Bat Shit Crazy appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 2018 Sunstone Symposium Gold Plates – Ancient or Modern Fabrication** Jul 28, 2018

One of the coolest issues to dive into is Moroni’s Gold Plates. This ancient mortal was the last to make engravings and to see them protected until he himself buried them only to as a post mortal being entrust them to the prophet Joseph Smith. What do we know about these plates and whose testimony can we trust. Numerous 1st, 2nd, and 3rd hand witnesses tell us much about these plates but in the end it may be Moroni himself who helps us solve this puzzle?

RESOURCES:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/10/1/S00003-50be4834f0ca03Henrichsen.pdf

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like?lang=eng

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/10/1/S00005-50be48520d86f5Sjodahl.pdf

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/pdf-control.php/publications/jbms/10/1/S00003-How_Witnesses_Described_the_Gold_Plates.html

https://history.lds.org/article/historic-sites/palmyra/smith-farm-life?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/church/news/artist-re-creates-the-golden-plates-for-museum-display-from-written-descriptions?lang=eng

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Mormon Discussion: 306: What Is Left? Jul 05, 2018

WHAT IS LEFT???????

1.) The Church has distanced itself from power of the Priesthood

2.) The Church has distanced itself from leaders speaking directly to God.

3.) The Information Age has imposed that most of our faith promoting miracle stories are problematic or false

4.) The Church’s historical truth claims are deeply problematic and it seemingly has failed to interpret its own history so miserably that it has an increasing lost trust in its ability to interpret itself.

- - first vision, book of Abraham, priesthood restoration, large chunks of 19^th century in the book of Mormon, the three witnesses, 8 witnesses, the extensive practice of treasure digging, the unhealthy mechanisms in implementing polygamy, the deceptiveness in putting forth a certain narrative that seems to be inaccurate at every turn.

5.) The Church has essentially disavowed the majority of things that make it unique and peculiar.

- - The Mormonism of Joseph Fielding smith and Bruce R McConkie that was the foundation of the growth the Church experienced in the 1980’s and 90’s is now in an information age now considered so absurd that much of it has been swept under a rug or disavowed. (gulf of Mexico – City of Enoch, Quetzalcoatl, evolution, age of earth, death before the fall, global flood, tower of babel and jaredite barges. Once one values the data and the science and is willing to go where the data leads rather than find support for their beliefs in order to maintain them all of these things become absurd.)

- - Race and Priesthood

6.) Mormonism has killed all creativity by membership and its leadership

– Elder Oaks has stated in the recent ysa broadcast that if you get a revelation that is different than what the leaders have taught you can know that your revelation comes from the wrong source. (hold mike accountable to answering how he reconciles his views on race and priesthood with that?). This rhetoric kills creativity as this pushes members into a corner where they sense that anything new.

– The leadership is so threatened by both the progressive voices like John Dehlin, pointing out contradictions on one side and voices like Denver Snuffer on the other, they they are paralyzed and unable to move in any direction and hence must impose that membership too stay in lockstep with them. This has created a religious institution afraid it will mis-step with any move it makes and afraid of the risk of allowing members room to do anything differently. It senses to allow creativity and new ideas simply welcomes new Dehlins and new Snuffers

Once you throw out most of the miracle stories …. Once you throw out all the doctrines and theories imposed by a MConkie/Fielding Smith Mormonism and their books…… Once you acknowledge the problematic data against our historical truth claims …….. What you throw out the power of the Priesthood…… Once you throw out God-Magic….. Once you throw out real Revelatory experiences…. Once you throw out creativity…… What is left?

I mean this sincerely. What is Mormonism in 100 years once it works through all of this and all within its walls recognize all that has been sacrificed on the altar due to an internet age?

Resources:

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/face-to-face/oaks-ballard?lang=eng

https://mormondiscussions.org/mdpodcast/2017/09/radio-free-mormon-018-faith-not-healed/

mdpodcast.org/2017/11/mormon-awakenings-episode-023-god-magic-spiritual-experiences-paranormal/

https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https://zeios.blob.core.windows.net/jtz-article-images/Boise%20Rescue-Transcript.docx

reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/42obsk/audio_and_outline_of_elder_oaks_youth_fireside_in/

mdpodcast.org/2017/04/extra-radio-free-mormon-april-2017-conference-autopsy-report/

reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/7ku7lq/top_ten_errors_in_the_church_history_primary/

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

mormonstories.org/how-the-lds-q12-think/

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**305: Empathy vs Sympathy** Jun 14, 2018
Bill Reel examines within the pain of a faith transition the development from Sympathy to Empathy. We look at what each of these look like and how they express themselves within our faith and within our faith transitions.

The post 305: Empathy vs Sympathy appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormon Discussion: 304: Be One And Be Racist With Us And Our Racist God…. No Thank You Jun 02, 2018

Last night the Church of Jesus Christ held a 40th anniversary of its doctrinal and policy change to allow those of African Descent to receive Priesthood and Saving ordinances in the Temple. As we all know the Church has been hush hush forever about this change and it context in our past. And then in 2013 when the Race and Priesthood Essay came out For the first time the Church felt comfortable speaking out and disavowing the theories behind those restrictions. But what was left ambiguous was the Ban itself. It seemed the Church preferred to allow people to make up their own minds. For those who needed the ban to be from God, they could read that into it. For those who needed the ban to be a Racist man made thing, they could have their cake and eat it too. Until that was last night…. When Elder Oaks said the following

“As part of my prayerful study, I learned that in general, the Lord rarely gives reasons for the Commandments and directions he gives to his servants” – Elder Oaks June 1st 2018

Hereby rendering ineffective the ambiguity of the Essay. Elder Oaks has taught us on several occasions to “Be One” and this celebration was no different. And yet if to “Be One” means I have to allow this unhealthy institution to shield itself from accountability and allow it to portray God as a racist SOB who he himself on his throne reached out to his servants and implemented the Priesthood and Temple ban without allowing any safe space left to believe that this Church’s leaders simply screwed up and have less of a direct connection than they want others to believe…. No thanks.

And PS You didn’t cry.

The post Mormon Discussion: 304: Be One And Be Racist With Us And Our Racist God…. No Thank You appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

303: Conscience over Outer Authorities May 31, 2018

Today On Mormon Discussion, Bill Reel dives into the idea once you grasp how fallible modern Church leaders are, taking the next step to grasp at just how fallible ancient servants of God were. Once one wrestles with that the discussion turns to how much trust one should place in God’s servants who are in a lower developmental stage and whose fruits are involve as much error as inspiration.

The post 303: Conscience over Outer Authorities appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion: 302: Racism, Parodies, and Botched Opportunities** May 26, 2018
Mormonism in the past week has learned that inspite of how much members say what they think the Church expects them to say, that members are deep down struggling much more deeply with the issues within its faith. Today on Mormon Discussion we talk about the recent Race Apology both the satire apology created by Jonathon Streeter as well as the non-existent apology and missed opportunity by the LDS Church itself. We talk about how people crave and need belonging and also authenticity but how in the first half of life, the belonging trumps the authenticity and compels us to say what the systems and institutions we belong to expect us to say. And in doing so our authenticity takes a back seat. This shows its face when people believed the Church had changed its message and what follows is a change in the rhetoric around that change only to have been based on a false belief that the Church had actually shifted. We see through these recent events that the members of the Church deep down are clamoring for a shift and deeply need the healing around issues that could only have been expressed by those members believing the Church had opened up a space for them to speak out and speak up. We end by showing that this is one more evidence that this institution has shown that every single time it can choose between helping people heal and doing the right thing versus protecting its authority and narrative, that Mormonism will do the latter every single time. And along the way I express my own sorrow for my blind spots in this experience.

The post Mormon Discussion: 302: Racism, Parodies, and Botched Opportunities appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**301: Bill Reel discusses the twists and turns of his Faith Journey** May 23, 2018
Today guest host Brittney Hartley sits down with Bill Reel from Mormon Discussions Podcasts and discusses his current relationship with Mormonism. In this 2 hour interview Bill tackles what got him to this place as they discuss many of the important moments along this journey. They tackle where he is at currently including where his wife and kids are with the Church. He finishes by speaking to what lays ahead for the podcast. If you have grown to appreciate Bill Reel and his voice in this space, your going to love this chance to see deeply inside his heart and mind. We hope you enjoy this episode!!!

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**Mormon Discussion: 300: SEERS** May 19, 2018

Today On Mormon Discussion, We discuss Seers. What is a Seer within the Old Testament. How does the Book of Mormon frame such a word. What is Jesus as heard through the D&C stating? How about Moroni as a spiritual post-mortal being? How does the modern Church today define a Seer? And lastly is the statement that “President Monson is a Seer” different from “we sustain President Monson as a seer”?

The post Mormon Discussion: 300: SEERS appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

299: Haley Lemmon – The Joseph Smith Translation – Revelation or Plagiarism May 11, 2018

Haley Wilson Lemmon sits down with us today to discuss the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. Haley worked with BYU Professor Thomas A Wayment in looking into what possible sources Joseph Smith used in his Bible translation. The major discovery here was that Joseph Smith “direct borrowed” or plagiarized heavily from Adam Clarke’s Commentary in order to carry out his Bible translation. There is a multiple of tangents we take this conversation
– What led to this research?
– How pervasive this plagiarism was.
– Was there any pushback from BYU or the Church leadership?
– Was there any pressure to edit certain ideas out?
– Joseph use of other sources in his work such as Buck’s Dictionary
– How this demonstrates once again how problematic the Church’s narrative is
– The imposed need to redefine what it meant for Joseph to translate
– How understanding Joseph Smith on this issue sheds light on his other “translations”.
– How this either speaks to Joseph Smith being a genius or it imposes that Joseph had other sources by his side in his translation work and what that means for other works including the book of abraham but namely the book of Mormon
– Does the Book of Mormon utilize Clarke’s Commentary?
– What can we infer about Sidney Rigdon’s involvement
– How her and Wayments write-up is in their mind the most faithful way to interpret the data.
– The difficult position the Church is in with its narrative falling apart
– How BYU censured her regarding her blog about her faith crisis
– Where Haley is at today in her faith journey

Resources:

BYU’s Synopsis of Lemmon’s and Wayment’s Research
Adam Clarke’s Commentary

The post 299: Haley Lemmon – The Joseph Smith Translation – Revelation or Plagiarism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

PREMIUM: Stages of Faith: Rock Creek Apr 17, 2018

This Episode is Audio from outside the Mormon Discussion Podcasts. This is a sermon from another faith on “Stages of Faith”.
We revisit a series where we have taken audio where those of other faiths work to explain and teach the stages of faith. Today is the Rock Creek

Here is a sermon given in their Church on the Stages of Faith

The post PREMIUM: Stages of Faith: Rock Creek appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

298: Tim Birt – Mormonism’s Negligence on Sex Abuse Mar 31, 2018

The Church has claimed to be the “Gold Standard” on handling of Sexual Abuse. They have also said that “No religious organization has done more” than they have to prevent and respond to abuse. The Church has also stated that “While clergy-abuse cases continue to grab headlines, the Church has had almost no child abuse problems with its clergy.” Yet we know from data points like this list of known abuse cases within the LDS Church along with the following cases

Recent Joseph Layton Bishop abuse scandal

Lawsuit involving alleged cover up by LDS Church of abuse

Utah Bishop convicted of sexual abuse

Stories From over 500 victims

List of several cases with links

Groups says there is a cultural problem with Mormonism’s mechanisms

So a Church member might ask what are the unhealthy mechanisms within our faith? Here is a list to get that conversation going

– Unhealthy views of normal sexual developments as sin
– A lack of accountability to current sex abuse standards
– One on One interviews and the unhealthy boundaries and unsafe space that creates
– Deeply inadequate training
– An unhealthy framing of worthiness
– While there is a hotline for leaders to call there is no mechanism for members to call on their own.
-no openness to hear or implement the constructive criticism of outside voices who are informed and enducated on sexual abuse to point out needed policy and procedural changes.

A More comprehensive list is as follows:

Prevention efforts Home/Church
*Church dissuades members from discussing sensitive matters
* Resources given not available for member download / dated / not best practice
* No Background checks required for adults working with youth or leaders
* No training required for youth workers or leaders
* No reporting mechanism on training or non ecclesiastical complaint resolution
* New two deep leadership “Should” not must for working with youth,
*Bishop still exempted from no one-on- one
*No guide for safe scouting for older boys or girls.
* Overnight policy still not consistent with BSA
* Policies are not public
* No member or youth training on abuse / consent part of the curriculum

Regarding the change to allow an second adult to attend an interview “if the person being interviewed desires”
*Inadequate change as it is left up to the person being interviewed to ask for a second
adult to be in the room.
*Still allows one-on- one interviews
*Doesn’t protect the bishop
*Sexual explicit questions still allowed no guidance on content of questioning.
*”Leaders to void all circumstances that could be misunderstood” Unclear use of
language – Church must be example of ability to talk about abuse and sex with adults
*Sexual shaming worthiness questions still allowed

– Reporting Abuse
“When abuse occurs, the first and immediate responsibility of church leaders is to help
those who have been abused and to protect vulnerable persons from future abuse”
* Bishops not qualified to help abuse victims or protect vulnerable
* Reporting is required by church has poor track record
* No training in mandated reporting
* + Members should never be encouraged to remain in a home or situation that is
abusive or unsafe GOOD MESSAGE
*Call to hotline immediately is new directive but may still protect Church liability
*Referral to mental health is good but resources need to be maintained of qualified
therapists and resources given
*NDS’s or Non-Disclosure Agreements keep membership/society from generally knowing the breadth and scope of abuse in the Church
*Leaders unqualified to “help abuser repent or cease abuse — Should always be referring to professionals
* Resources listed are only available to church leaders not members or public
* Policies are not open to public

If the Church wants to be seen as being serious about abuse, its prevention, and the support of victims it will need to lay its authority hold over members on the altar and take seriously the conclusion that it is not only inadequate on such an issue but that outside voices have valid criticisms of current policies and procedures as well as suggestions for a healthier paradigm.

Resources for further learning about this issue and how we can be better:

Protect LDS Children and Concerns about Child Interviews in LDS Church
(See http://protectldschildren.org/ )
-Recommendations for parents/members to protect their children by advocating with bishops / Stake
Presents
(See https://invisiblescubit.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/great-suggestions-to-protect-our-children/ )

– Response to “How Mormons (the Church) Approaches Abuse” (Mormon Newsroom resource)
I give 16 recommendations to improve the LDS Church’s child protection policies and practices
Church Resource: (See https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/how-mormons-approach-abuse )
Tim’s response: (See http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2018/02/church-approaches-abuse-professionals-response.html )
– Preventing and Responding to Abuse (Church resource issued 3/26/2018 discussed in this podcast)
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/multimedia/file/Preventing-and-Responding-to-Abuse-attachment-final.pdf
– Mormon Mental Health Podcast discussion of “Preventing and Responding to Abuse” Church Resource
point by point discussion by two clinicians of the document (Natasha Helfer Parker and Timothy Birt)
http://www.mormonmentalhealth.org/133-response-to-the-churchs-updated-guidelines-in-preventing-and-responding-to-abuse/

– Dialogue Article on Abuse:
Day, Terence L. “Bones Heal Faster: Spousal Abuse in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints” Dialogue. 46:01
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N01_328b.pdf
– Investigating A Claim of Child Abuse at Church – An Inside Perspective
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2016/02/investigating-a-claim-of-child-abuse-at-church-an-inside-perspective/

– Adverse Childhood Experiences Study (ACE)
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/acestudy/index.html
https://www.samhsa.gov/capt/practicing-effective-prevention/prevention-behavioral-health/adverse-childhood-experiences
https://acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score/
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=adverse+childhood+experiences&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiz6ZbKro_aAhVL4YMKHZksDuAQgQMINDAA
– Trauma Focused – Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
https://tfcbt.org/
https://tfcbt2.musc.edu/

– Children’s Advocacy Centers

http://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/

– Recommendations for Church Child Protection policies from other Churches:

Community of Christ
http://www.cofchrist.org/child-protection-training
United Methodist Church (Safe Sanctuaries)
https://www.umcdiscipleship.org/resources/safe-sanctuaries-general-guidelines-starter-documents
Episcopal Church
https://www.cpg.org/linkservid/3F743B4C-06F1-5DFF-86FFB64C8B79DE07/showMeta/0/?label=Model%20Policies%3A%20Preventing%20Children%20and%20Youth%20from%20Abuse
Presbyterian Church
http://www.fpcgreensboro.org/child-and-youth-protection-policy
United Church of Christ
http://www.ucc.org/ministers_safe
Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake
https://www.dioslc.org/offices/office-of-safe-environment/documents-safe-environment/safe-environment-program-manual

– Phone links:
Trevor project LGBT support / suicide: 866-488- 7386
National Domestic Violence Hotline: 800-656- 4673
National Children’s Alliance (CAC INFO): 202.548.0090
LDS HOTLINE: 800-453- 3860 ext. 2-1911
LDS GENERAL COUNSEL: 800-453- 3860 ext. 2-6301

– Tim Birt’s Info:
– (See https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/counseling-and-therapy-services-auburn-al/210682 )
– (See http://www.mormonmentalhealthassoc.org/mmha-clinical-providers

The post 298: Tim Birt – Mormonism’s Negligence on Sex Abuse appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

297: Wisdom Through Exposure Mar 28, 2018

Today I want to talk about Wisdom. Wisdom seems to come from exposing ourselves in a vulnerable way to others especially those who are diverse and unique from us. It is when we look for truth outside of our bubbles that we begin to open ourselves up to real wisdom. That when we live in small groups or live isolated lives that we are defensive of differences rather than looking for truth. We talk today about how much wisdom there is in Mormonism and if there is little where else do we look for it.

Bill Reel’s Suggestions of Wise Audio Episodes

https://robbell.podbean.com/e/episode-86-richard-rohr-and-the-alternative-orthodoxy/ – Rob Bell and Richard Rohr Together
https://onbeing.org/programs/david-hartman-hope-in-a-hopeless-god/ – Krista Tippet interview Rabbi David Hartman (click unedited)
https://onbeing.org/programs/martin-sheen-spirituality-of-imagination/ – Krista Tippett interview Martin Sheen (click unedited)
http://www.radiolab.org/story/91569-memory-and-forgetting/ – Radio Lab Episode on Memory
https://www.outsideonline.com/2162176/everest-effect – A historical example used to show the nuance of the value of life
http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/09-generous-orthodoxy – One is never to old to change
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ – How our brain deals with contradictory evidence

The post 297: Wisdom Through Exposure appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Special Episode: 296: Sex Abuse, Victim Shaming, and Sabbaticals Mar 24, 2018

With the recent MormonLeaks audio regarding MTC president self admitting he sexual abused others, it became necessary to speak out about sex abuse and the unhealthiness here inside the Church. I start by telling some stories from my growing up and tie into how good Mormonism was for 17 year old me. I then explain how slowly over time I came to barely hanging on in hopes the Church would choose to be good. We then take a long look at this recent leak and the understanding that comes out from it and finish sharing why this and other events have helped our family make peace with the sabbatical we have taken from Church activity.

Resources:
Audio and Transcript from Mormon Leaks (I recommend the Audio)

Church Official Response

Church’s Former Official Response to Sex Abuse Generally

Church Updated Version of their Official Response to Sex Abuse Generally

The post Special Episode: 296: Sex Abuse, Victim Shaming, and Sabbaticals appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**295: Revelation and The Role of Prophets & Apostles, Modern and Ancient** Mar 07, 2018

Are Modern Prophets the same as Ancient Prophets and Ancient Apostles? Today we dissect three audio quotes of Elder Oaks where he seems to acknowledge and validate that they are not. That while Ancient Apostles and prophets were witnesses of a manifestation of some sort in regards to their witness of Christ while Modern Prophets have essentially zero direct contact with the Savior. Are Modern leaders just like Moses, Noah, and Abraham? Apparently not. What are we to make of this? And what does it mean to you for them to be special witnesses of Christ?

The post 295: Revelation and The Role of Prophets & Apostles, Modern and Ancient appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormon Discussion: 333: The Bigotry and Questionable Doctrine of Elder Oaks and the Room He Leaves to Disavow Himself Mar 06, 2018

Elder Oaks is on record testifying that we not not accept the teachings and statements of a given leader. These quotes show up at other times as well from other leaders. Strangely it is Elder Oaks who seems most accustomed to stating things which no other leader cares to tackle and certainly not all 15 of them. On today’s episode we tackle the peculiar teachings of Elder Oaks and the very room he gives for members to disavow his own peculiar teachings. We also talk about the bigotry contained in some of his teachings as well as those that seem incompatible with Christ’s own example.

The post Mormon Discussion: 333: The Bigotry and Questionable Doctrine of Elder Oaks and the Room He Leaves to Disavow Himself appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**295: Sam Young – Protect The Children** Feb 21, 2018
Today we sit down with Sam Young and discuss his effort to protect Latter-day Saint children. Sam shares the why of his involvement in this issue, what he is doing to accomplish this, what would need to change, and how the Church is reacting. We talk about transparency, forthrightness, and the shielding of this institution from vulnerability by its leaders. Sam Young is courageous and is standing on the high ground defending LDS Children from distorted boundaries and deep unhealthiness. Support Sam by visiting protectldschildren.org

Sam also offers this suggestion as a possible format for sharing with LDS leaders that you are establishing a healthier boundary for your children and their relationship with local leaders.

Dear Bishop,

Our family has decided to set the following boundaries with regards to our children.

Our children are not to participate in any one-on-one interviews with anyone in the stake, including the bishop.

We are to be notified in advance of any interviews with our children.

One of us must to be present in all interviews with our children.

No sexual matters are to be discussed during any meetings involving our children.

These limits have been discussed with our kids. We and they fully expect that these boundaries will be respected.

Please let us know if you have any questions.

This decision does not diminish our esteem for you as our bishop. We appreciate and thank you for your dedicated service.

Sincerely,

The post 295: Sam Young – Protect The Children appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**294: Loni Lamm – A Spiritual Awakening- Part 2** Feb 15, 2018
Today we hang out with Loni Lamm and discuss her faith journey and the journey of her family. She has an interesting story to tell. Some of her story including her time as an up and coming singer and her diverse experience in place like California will take on new ground. But more importantly the majority of her story is our story. She puts into words a telling of a faith journey that is your faith journey and mine. So many part of this interview were interesting to me and felt like things I constantly have on my mind being told in a new refreshing way. Join us today on Mormon Discussion as we continue with Part 2 of our interview with Loni Lamm

Part 2 tackles her husband’s faith journey, the trauma of a faith shift, an awareness of the changing dynamics of in-group/out-group dynamics and a growing development with herself, her husband and their marriage.

Loni Lamm music album

The post 294: Loni Lamm – A Spiritual Awakening- Part 2 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**293: Loni Lamm – A Spiritual Awakening- Part 1** Feb 15, 2018
Today we hang out with Loni Lamm and discuss her faith journey and the journey of her family. She has an interesting story to tell. Some of her story including her time as an up and coming singer and her diverse experience in place like California will take on new ground. But more importantly the majority of her story is our story. She puts into words a telling of a faith journey that is your faith journey and mine. So many part of this interview were interesting to me and felt like things I constantly have on my mind being told in a new refreshing way. Join us today on Mormon Discussion as we share part 1 of our interview with Loni Lamm

Part 1 tackles her childhood, her parents relationship with the gospel, her time as a musical performer, her schooling, and meeting her future husband. The episode ends with an awareness that something has shifted and that more shifting must occur.

Loni Lamm music album

The post 293: Loni Lamm – A Spiritual Awakening- Part 1 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**292: Jaxon Washburn – Paradigm of a Rising Generation** Feb 09, 2018
Today I sit down with Jaxon Washburn. Who is Jaxon? Only one of the stronger voices coming out of younger generation of Mormons. We tackle the idea of Prophets, Scripture, the LGBT issue and others in an effort to see how the younger generation is beginning to re-frame Mormonism. What does the future look like? If we base that ideal off voices like Jaxon, it is certainly kinder, more empathetic, more inclusive, and more desirous of a healthier faith.

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291: Stand Up Speak Up!!! Jan 30, 2018

Today on Mormon Discussion, Bill Reel ties together several facets playing out in his own life and in his Church regarding the LGBT Issue. How it is playing out in his wrestle with Mormonism, How it is playing out in his family & Friendships, How the Church is slowly coming around, How some leaders are giving a double message privately and publicly and the harm that it does, How the Church generally is giving these kids hope with its words only to provide more pain and harm with their actions, and How each of us need to stand up and speak up. This is a monumental episode you won’t want to miss!!!!!

The post 291: Stand Up Speak Up!!! appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**290: Tony Ortega & The Church of Scientology & Scientologists** Jan 24, 2018

Today we sit down with Tony Ortega, a journalist who has covered Scientology for over 20 years. We talk about the mechanisms of Scientology and contrast and compare them with some of the mechanisms Mormonism. We cover topics like how both religions handle dissenters, what gives the members certainty with their respective religion, interviews to establish loyalty, Sea Org vs Missionary Program, unique vocabulary, discouragement of looking into critical information, time commitment, financial commitment, and many more.

**Resources:**

https://tonyortega.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miscavige

http://www.scientology.org/

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/22/us/believer-what-is-scientology/index.html

The post 290: Tony Ortega & The Church of Scientology & Scientologists appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Joseph Smith’s Polygamy Fireside 1.13.2018** Jan 22, 2018
This is an audio recording of a Fireside held in Southern Utah on January 13 2018 on Joseph Smith’s polygamy. We share the accounts of the plural wives of the Prophet Joseph Smith in their very words. Going through multiple accounts one begins to see a pattern appear. Religious pressure, rhetoric to each women that gives the impression they are the first being approached to “start the principle”, young girls working or living in the Smith home encouraged to become plural wives, and imposed deadlines for these women to make a decision. Once one works through all the data, it seems impossible to avoid the uncomfortable realization that there is a deep unhealthiness in Joseph implementation of polygamy and we get to the heart of the matter.

**Resources:**

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives

lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

The post Joseph Smith’s Polygamy Fireside 1.13.2018 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

289: Institutional Overreaching – A Better Framework Jan 08, 2018

People are constantly trying to figure out how they can be in Mormonism while trying to reconcile where they stand versus where the Institution stands. In spite of the fact that the Church has always struggled to define itself, it’s history, it’s theology, and even the Word of God when it isn’t; we still seem to try to mesh our lives with the standards and interpretations it has declared. This seems like a fruitless endeavor. If the Church can not define itself or God’s doctrine and theology correctly then it is a moving target that we are trying to mesh our lives with. There is a better framework. This requires us to begin deciphering what is actually the Word of God and more importantly what parts of the Word of God is binding on us by the rules God has set within the Church. Once we realize the very small box of things that God seems to have stated directly and that GOd and the Church have imposed on us as binding and that we have accepted by common consent as binding we realize just how much in the Church isn’t binding. Once we do that the Tent of Mormonism gets really big and makes way more room for diversity and almost entirely squashes most of the things we believe imposes conformity and causes us moral tension…… most things.

The post 289: Institutional Overreaching – A Better Framework appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

SPECIAL: Mormon Matters: 442: LIVING IN (AND GROWING THROUGH) TENSION: AN INTERVIEW WITH BILL REEL Jan 06, 2018

PT 2

Bill Reel is widely known within the Mormon podcast world as a fellow traveler on the road many of us have found ourselves on—often quite reluctantly. At one time, we have thrived within Mormonism. It contributes greatly to our identity, and provides our primary social group. It helps shape our thinking and character in ways we don’t often reflect upon. We have everything figured out. Our religious worldview tells us what’s of foremost importance, and where various traps are that might lead us from the path God says we should follow. And then . . . a bump . . . a hiccup . . . a fact that shakes us or an idea that once we truly examine it leaves us scratching our head. Things accelerate. If this practice or that idea are showing themselves to be something less that purely divine in origins, to have changed over the centuries, to have human fingerprints all over them, we move into what many call a “faith crisis.” And, now it dawns on us that we will have to decide things for ourselves. Those values we were taught and believe—were they truly the best ones (or the best ones for me), the ones that my spirit or temperament tells me I’m truly meant to hold above other ones? What about this particular religious path? I see others traveling down different ones, should I explore those? And on and on it goes …

Bill and I, and so many of you, know this territory well. We’ve lived it. And we’ve faced it in different ways according to our experiences, temperaments, needs. But via our moving into this complexity, for some of us, our continuing to live or push through the tensions and difficult processes of choosing (very reflectively) our own values have ultimately led to a newfound peace. It’s not a “tensionless” peace, but we end up coming to find those places where ideas and personalities and practices rub against each other (and never fully come to make perfect “sense” according to our rational minds) to be important catalysts for growth and creativity and a discovering a new sense of purpose—and peace. One much sturdier and less susceptible to discouragement and despair when life does its “life-ing” and humans do their “human-ing” and leaders and family members and friends shift, or fail to shift, in the directions we’d like them to.

I’m grateful that I got the chance to interview and have a great conversation with Bill. I know you’ll find him very insightful, as well as relatable, vulnerable, and good-hearted. He shares his journey with us—so far!—and reflects on faith development and shifts from ego-centrism and tribal thinking to our centering in a wider cosmos and valuing the gifts of every religious tradition, every person. Finally, in addition to talking about Mormonism as a wonderful workshop in which to all tensions to do their refining and expanding work, we discuss how he now views and “holds” his Mormonism (including addressing a shift—that many have noticed and talked about—in his podcast’s tone beginning about two years ago) and how new understandings of myth and ritual and practice have helped him become re-centered in Mormonism, but far more “on his own terms.” Bill is a wonderful teacher and person, and I trust you will all very much enjoy this episode!

_____

Links:

Mormon Discussion Podcast homepage

Links to hear or read more of Bill’s story

Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind (Harper, 2015)

Dan Wotherspoon, “A Real Fight,” Sunstone (May 2004)

The post SPECIAL: Mormon Matters: 442: LIVING IN (AND GROWING THROUGH) TENSION: AN INTERVIEW WITH BILL REEL appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

SPECIAL: Mormon Matters: 441: LIVING IN (AND GROWING THROUGH) TENSION: AN INTERVIEW WITH BILL REEL Jan 06, 2018

PT 1

Bill Reel is widely known within the Mormon podcast world as a fellow traveler on the road many of us have found ourselves on—often quite reluctantly. At one time, we have thrived within Mormonism. It contributes greatly to our identity, and provides our primary social group. It helps shape our thinking and character in ways we don’t often reflect upon. We have everything figured out. Our religious worldview tells us what’s of foremost importance, and where various traps are that might lead us from the path God says we should follow. And then . . . a bump . . . a hiccup . . . a fact that shakes us or an idea that once we truly examine it leaves us scratching our head. Things accelerate. If this practice or that idea are showing themselves to be something less that purely divine in origins, to have changed over the centuries, to have human fingerprints all over them, we move into what many call a “faith crisis.” And, now it dawns on us that we will have to decide things for ourselves. Those values we were taught and believe—were they truly the best ones (or the best ones for me), the ones that my spirit or temperament tells me I’m truly meant to hold above other ones? What about this particular religious path? I see others traveling down different ones, should I explore those? And on and on it goes …

Bill and I, and so many of you, know this territory well. We’ve lived it. And we’ve faced it in different ways according to our experiences, temperaments, needs. But via our moving into this complexity, for some of us, our continuing to live or push through the tensions and difficult processes of choosing (very reflectively) our own values have ultimately led to a newfound peace. It’s not a “tensionless” peace, but we end up coming to find those places where ideas and personalities and practices rub against each other (and never fully come to make perfect “sense” according to our rational minds) to be important catalysts for growth and creativity and a discovering a new sense of purpose—and peace. One much sturdier and less susceptible to discouragement and despair when life does its “life-ing” and humans do their “human-ing” and leaders and family members and friends shift, or fail to shift, in the directions we’d like them to.

I’m grateful that I got the chance to interview and have a great conversation with Bill. I know you’ll find him very insightful, as well as relatable, vulnerable, and good-hearted. He shares his journey with us—so far!—and reflects on faith development and shifts from ego-centrism and tribal thinking to our centering in a wider cosmos and valuing the gifts of every religious tradition, every person. Finally, in addition to talking about Mormonism as a wonderful workshop in which to all tensions to do their refining and expanding work, we discuss how he now views and “holds” his Mormonism (including addressing a shift—that many have noticed and talked about—in his podcast’s tone beginning about two years ago) and how new understandings of myth and ritual and practice have helped him become re-centered in Mormonism, but far more “on his own terms.” Bill is a wonderful teacher and person, and I trust you will all very much enjoy this episode!

_____

Links:

Mormon Discussion Podcast homepage

Links to hear or read more of Bill’s story

Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind (Harper, 2015)

Dan Wotherspoon, “A Real Fight,” Sunstone (May 2004)

The post SPECIAL: Mormon Matters: 441: LIVING IN (AND GROWING THROUGH) TENSION: AN INTERVIEW WITH BILL REEL appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**288: Lucy Walker and Spiritual Experiences** Dec 27, 2017

Today we tell the story of Lucy Walker, plural wife of the prophet Joseph Smith. We tell her story and then spend time exploring who has spiritual experiences, whether they can be trusted specifically when one us under stress, pressure, and sleep deprivation. Then we explore the spiritual experiences of those of other faiths and in the end speak to a theological conundrum regardless of which way you come down in the Lucy Walker story.

The post 288: Lucy Walker and Spiritual Experiences appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

287: Conversation with a Southern Utah Post-Mormon Group 12.10.17 Dec 13, 2017

This is a audio recording of Bill Reel’s presentation and Q&A to a Post Mormon group in Southern Utah on December 10th 2017. It includes me spending approximately 35 minutes telling my story, how I have reconciled the messiness, and why development is so important to the human experience. Then the last hour and ten minutes I try my best to be vulnerable to the questions, concerns, and comments of the group.

The post 287: Conversation with a Southern Utah Post-Mormon Group 12.10.17 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**286: Guilt Shame And Leading With Faith** Dec 08, 2017
Today’s Episode is split into three segments. In segment #1 Bill Reel addresses guilt and shame and shares an experience from his personal life. In segment #2 Bill makes a plea on behalf the Mormon Discussion team in order to keep this work going. And Bill concludes by addressing the criticism that he no longer leads with faith

Liturgists Podcast on Shame

Brene Brown on Vulnerability

Brene Brown on Shame

The post 286: Guilt Shame And Leading With Faith appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**285: Women And Their Care & Concern for the Mortal Jesus** Nov 28, 2017

A good friend of mine. Smart, informed, wise, and just so happens to be a woman. She makes this connection in the scriptures. She sees how the women of the New Testament are operating differently from the men in regards to how they treat the mortal body of Jesus. What is the degree of care and concern they have for the Savior, How do the disciples react to such interaction, and most importantly how does Jesus regard their behavior. In one such instance Jesus taught his disciples that wherever the gospel is taught, her story should be told as a memorial to her. Today we honor that story and ask if perhaps in the very here and now if there is room for more of a role for the daughters of our Heavenly Father.

The post 285: Women And Their Care & Concern for the Mortal Jesus appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**284: Our Heritage – Fabricated Faith Promoting Stories** Nov 07, 2017
Today I sit with my friend Chris Bloxham and using the recent Elder Holland retraction as a springboard to discuss just how much of Mormonism’s faith promoting narrative is untrue and deeply built on myth and fable. We tackle stories like the Brigham Young transfiguration, Lorenzo Snow seeing Jesus in the Temple, Seagulls and Crickets, the Sweetwater crossing, elevators in the Salt Lake Temple, Moroni blessing Manti, John Taylor’s bullet stopping watch, and several more. Once you see Elder Hollands story in the context of all the other just how many faith promoting stories we have in Mormonism and how the far and wide majority of them are problematic or downright untrue then you can begin to connect dots. Dots such as how miracle stories get started, why they take hold, and why there will be so many less “so-called” miracles going forward in a age of verifiable history. In the end is uncomfortable truth more valued by you then comfortable myths held as true that are not? What stories are demonstrably problematic that we left out?
The post 284: Our Heritage – Fabricated Faith Promoting Stories appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

283: Special Halloween Edition 2017 Oct 30, 2017

Mormon Discussion Halloween Edition. Today we sit down with Zach Derr and discuss ghost and spirit stories within Mormonism. We talk about how some of these are explainable but that others seem to be beyond explanation. We talk of myth and our need to give explanations for things we otherwise can’t explain. We talk about how the information age has in only a few decades made us much less superstitious and much more cynical when it comes to the supernatural. After all that we conclude that even in an information age, some of these stories are still creepy and can’t be dismissed out of hand.

The post 283: Special Halloween Edition 2017 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**SPECIAL EPISODE: The Backdrop and Context of The Family A Proclamation to the World** Oct 15, 2017

The Family: A Proclamation To The World – How was it created? Why was it created? What is the timeline for its creation? Today in a special joint episode Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel from Mormon Discussion tackle these questions and more. Want to know the backdrop and context of the creation of the LDS Proclamation on the family? Well here it is and we hope you enjoy!!!!!

**RESOURCES:**

https://mormondiscussions.org/mdpodcast/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2017/10/oaks_paper1984.pdf
http://rationalfaiths.com/from-amici-to-ohana/
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/the-plan-and-the-proclamation?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/archive/worldwide-leadership-training/2008/02?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/cleansing-the-inner-vessel?lang=eng
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFCWUoXr1Dg
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V45N01_CO.pdf
https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng&old=true
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2017/01/16-273-amicus-petitioner-major_religious_organizations.pdf

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283: The Prophet Will Not Lead The Church Astray Oct 14, 2017

Today we take the phrase “The Lord will not permit the prophet to lead the Church astray” and dissect it. What do orthodox members believe that means? What does history tell us? What have leaders said? And in the end Can we have confidence and trust in the answers we get from Prophets, from our own revelation, and lastly… how can we have any confidence in what we perceive is the Holy Ghost

The post 283: The Prophet Will Not Lead The Church Astray appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**282: Elder Oaks, Common Consent, And Un-Canonized Doctrine** Oct 03, 2017
Elder Oaks gave a talk this past week that raises for me several questions. Here are the things he seemed to have said and my questions that follow. Remember it is Elder Oaks himself who stated that “Questions are honored” and so I hope you will do just that by taking them seriously. Also, Elder Ballard said gone are the days when we bear testimony or say don’t worry about it as a way to avoid serious concerns. So I am hopeful you will either address my questions or if you are unable, that you will see that they are forwarded up the ecclesiastical ladder until someone is willing to honor my questions. I also hope you will sense that if these questions can not be addressed that it is possible there is something illogical about the teaching being imposed. I am open to having misunderstood Elder Oaks and I am open to gospel answers that are backed by scriptural principles and doctrine.

He seems to have taught
1.) It is our doctrine that a man married to a woman legally and lawfully is the only appropriate marriage in the gospel
– How do we reconcile that concept with the fact that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff were all illegally and unlawfully wedded to their wives?

2.) That for thousands of years marriage has been between a man and a woman.
– How can we take seriously such a definition when the Church itself broke the traditional definition of marriage but instructing people to enter polygamy and going so far as to impose that only by disobeying the world and its laws and entering polygamy may one achieve salvation.

3.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose that Gender being eternal is doctrine.
– How do we explain Intersex people with both sets of genitalia, How do we explain androgen sensitivity syndrome which has a human with the DNA of a man (XY chromosomes) while at the same time the fetus inability to process androgen appropriately has the person presenting physically as a female and in some cases even able to give birth?, How do we explain transgender? Was an intersex person both male and female in the premortal life? will they have both genitalia in the post-mortal life? will a xy chromosome man who presents as a female be a man or a woman in the hereafter?

4.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose the Proclamation as Doctrine to which a latter-day saints faithfulness will be gauged.
– There seems to be a process to put forth the mind and will of God in a way that Latter Day Saints are bound to it and for us to see the ideas as doctrine. That is to put forth the teaching for a vote of common consent before the membership and then to canonize it. A Latter Day Saint can not be held to every statement a leader makes nor can a person have any teaching imposed on him as a litmus test of faith without that teaching being presented for common consent. For example Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual ” Not only are Church officers sustained by common consent, but this same principle operates for policies, major decisions, acceptance of new scripture, and other things that affect the lives of the Saints”. “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” has never be presented for common consent nor has it been canonized. Any unique teaching in it not corroborated by canonized scripture accepted by Common consent can not be used as a litmus test to decide faithfulness. Notice the Church itself only a few years ago did not like this kind of imposition and even altered a leaders words to prevent it.

In October 2010 general conference President Packer stated the following

” Fifteen years ago, with the world in turmoil, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” the fifth proclamation in the history of the Church. It qualifies according to the definition as a revelation and would do well that members of the church to read and follow it.”

The published version now says:

“Fifteen years ago, with the world in turmoil, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” the fifth proclamation in the history of the Church. It is a guide that members of the Church would do well to read and to follow.”

Also consider ““All that we teach in this Church ought to be couched in the scriptures. It ought to be found in the scriptures. We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures. If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth” (“Using the Scriptures in Our Church Assignments,” Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, 13).”

Also consider “In the Church, canon refers to the authoritative collection of sacred books of scripture, known as the standard works, formally adopted and accepted by the Church and considered binding upon members in matters of faith and doctrine.”

5.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose that a marriage vows must be honored with complete fidelity.
– Can we address how that plays out in Joseph’s relationship with Emma. He lied to her about polygamy, he had relationships with women without telling Emma, and some of these relationships were sexual. How do we contrast Joseph behavior with the imposition that one’s marriage should be honored with complete fidelity? If we are going to hold people accountable should we not be willing to discuss the prophet Joseph’s behavior? (Even the LDS.ORG essay says “Emma likely did not know about all of Joseph’s sealings.” – is that fidelity to Emma?)

6.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose that the Church seeks to protect the sanctity of marriage by upholding the traditional definition and that we are at odds with a world that seeks to change the traditional definition.
– In light of our early practice of polygamy where the world was trying to uphold the traditional definition of marriage and it was us as a faith that was seeking to amend and alter that definition is such an argument rooted in hypocrisy?

7.) Elder Oaks seemed to impose that the doctrine is that marriage is for “multiplying and replenishing the earth”.
– How do we contrast that with the Church teaching in the LDS.ORG essay “Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo” that “Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations.”? Which means some marriages were likely not intended to be sexual hence Joseph wasn’t marrying for the doctrine to multiply and replenish the earth with some of his wives. So how do we reconcile that?

Am I bound to what a single leader teaches if it is not in the standard works? Am I bound to see the proclamation as a guide or is it now an un-canonized doctrine that was never put forth for common consent?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/media/session_1_talk_6/5594186028001?lang=eng

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**281: Jesus & His True And Living Church** Sep 22, 2017
Orthodox members of the Church constantly point at progressive Mormons as falling off the path, as inappropriately raising a critical voice, as having done something contrary to the path Jesus had set. Today we revisit the life of Jesus. We examine his interaction with his religious leaders. We examine his behavior within his True and Living Church. Today we ask ourselves how did Jesus live his path in mortality within the True and Living Church and are the progressive voices really that different?

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Mormon Discussion Presents: An Exploration of the Gospel Topic Essays Sep 18, 2017

This is an audio recording of the presentation “Mormon Discussion Presents: A Dialogue on Gospel Topic Essays”. This was held at the Home of Bill Reel, host of Mormon Discussion Podcast, in Southern Utah on September 16th. Sound quality is slightly less than desirable but this went so well and the discussion may be extremely helpful to build bridges in mixed faith relationships. We ended up with about 35 folks with some being very orthodox, others being completely out and then some in between. folks all along the spectrum found the night to be helpful and beneficial.

The post Mormon Discussion Presents: An Exploration of the Gospel Topic Essays appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**280: Word Of Wisdom** Sep 13, 2017

Today we discuss the Word of Wisdom or better yet section 89 of the D&C. Today we talk about the history of the Word of Wisdom, what it means to be Revelation or better yet what it means to be Canon, better yet what it means to be binding on the people. And if Binding on the saints then what room is there without a revelation, without additional Canon, and without a vote of common consent; to create a standard that runs counter to that binding canonized revelation.

The post 280: Word Of Wisdom appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**279: Rabbit Holes and Upcoming Events** Aug 31, 2017
The episode starts with sharing upcoming events we are planning then dives into the episode “Rabbit Holes”

Alice was encouraged into the rabbit hole but once she entered there was no turning back. In Mormonism too there are rabbit holes and they too never end where we expected. As we look at the question of “What in our narrative has to change?”, it may be easier to ask “What doesn’t have to change?” as we are beginning to sense that so so much of our story is problematic.

To see Events being held check out these links

Event is Southern Utah: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/mormon-discussion-podcast-presents-a-dialogue-on-lds-gospel-topic-essays-tickets-37284135854

Event in the Las Vegas area: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/mormon-discussion-podcast-presents-joseph-smiths-folk-magic-seer-stones-and-treasure-digging-tickets-37315533766

To hold an event in your area email me at reelmormon AT gmail DOT com

These are so much fun and we will spend a day or two in great conversation and provide such a validating experience for those who are grappling with the messiness!

The post 279: Rabbit Holes and Upcoming Events appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**278: Temple Lot, Hedrickites, RLDS, and Carnal Intercourse** Aug 30, 2017

Today we discuss at length the Temple Lot Case. Why the RLDS (Community of Christ) and Hedrickite (Church of Christ) branches were bickering and fighting, why the LDS branch got involved, How the case got resolved, and most important what we learn about Mormonism from those who testified. Fake Deeds, Cease and Desist Orders, Dodged Questions, and Carnal Intercourse all enter the conversation around this historical episode in Mormonism’s history.

We borrowed heavily from the following articles in order to put this episode together.

RESOURCES:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Lot_Case

http://restorationbookstore.org/blog/TLCtestimonies.pdf

signaturebookslibrary.org/an-introduction-to-the-temple-lot-case/

josephsmithspolygamy.org/lorenzo-snows-temple-lot-testimony/

https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/01/JS1018.pdf

http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1880s-1890s/1893_TLot.htm

https://eadview.lds.org/findingaid/MS%201160/

reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/3obrqk/testimonies_from_the_temple_lot_trial_on_joseph/

https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/bitstream/handle/2152/21959/ouellette_dissertation_201221.pdf;sequence=1

https://archive.org/details/decisionofjohnfp00philrich

http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/temple-lot-case/

The post 278: Temple Lot, Hedrickites, RLDS, and Carnal Intercourse appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Stages of Faith & Building Bridges Aug 30, 2017

This audio program is hosted by Bill Reel, an active faithful Latter-day Saint who has himself gone through a difficult and painful faith transition and has remained active in the Church. This program is for the loved ones of those struggling in hopes for understanding and a safe space to have conversations.

You likely received this audio program from someone you love who is going through a hard time. They need you as a trusted friend and they treasure your relationship and are hopeful you will listen to this episode in hopes that you can better understand their struggle of faith. In the end the real solutions to a crisis of faith is love, empathy, compassion, and support and most importantly validation. May this be one step to such things.

WEB RESOURCES:

paulien stages of faith

Keeley Stages of Faith

Perry’s Scheme of Development

Fowler’s Stages of faith

BOOKS:

The Critical Journey

Faith Shift

Navigating Mormon Faith Crisis

The post Stages of Faith & Building Bridges appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**277: Myths, Fables, and Verifiable History** Aug 19, 2017
Today we have a vulnerable discussion about Miracles vs Myths. We tackle what is the reality in our present day with verifiable history vs the magical supernatural that God did when history wasn’t verifiable. We talk about what that means and where that takes us. We end talking about deconstruction and taking control of what is left that has value to you and being comfortable discarding that which hold no value or is unhealthy.

The post 277: Myths, Fables, and Verifiable History appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**276: Fix your faith crisis with this one weird trick! – WOOD vs STEEL Tools** Aug 09, 2017

Today we read an incredible blog post written by “Thinker of Thoughts“.

Faith crises are all the rage. Everybody’s talking about them. Okay, well not everybody. Mainly the people who have gone through them. Most other people are probably wishing that the people who keep bringing them up would just go away. They are like the Debbie Downer of religious circles, or your local family reunion.

Be that as it may, chances are that at some point in your life you (or someone you love) will be faced with a crisis of faith. Depending on what faith your crisis originates from, the experience can be quite devastating. This post is going to give you a single simple trick to fix a crisis of faith – but, before I reveal this trick to you, there is some groundwork that must be laid involving what it means to “fix” a faith crisis.

As I read this blog post it struck me that Apologetics in Mormonism at its core is no different than the apologetics of the false High Demand religions out there and that STEEL tools are rarely encouraged and seen as valid to one in crisis. As the author here points out, if the apologetic strategy would work in true religions as much as false ones than the strategy is too imperfect to be utilized by a true truth seeker. The end goal of WOOD tools is to keep the doubter in the Church and also minimize his doubts to others. Since the methods have been shown to be just as useful in false religions as in Mormonism, these WOOD tools are useless for real truthseeking!

The use of the blog post was done with the permission of “Thinker of Thoughts”

RESOURCES:

thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/fix-your-faith-crisis-with-this-one-weird-trick/

https://carm.org/logical-fallacies-or-fallacies-argumentation

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-to-make-sound-arguments-for-the-faith

http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa208.htm

The post 276: Fix your faith crisis with this one weird trick! – WOOD vs STEEL Tools appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**275: Satan The Opposition In All Things** Aug 04, 2017

Today we delve into the theological conundrum of Satan. We show that it is LDS theology that Satan is the opposition in the Plan of Salvation. That he could thwart the plan simply by ceasing his participation. The Apologetic response would argue that Satan is so pride driven that he can’t help himself but to stay involved despite his actually helping fulfill God’s plan or Satan is unnecessary and that opposition exists even if Satan steps aside. Either way Satan either is illogical or non-essential. We finish showing that in light of either Satan being illogical or inessential, it becomes non-essential to believe in him.

**Resources :**

https://www.lds.org/topics/satan?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1987/10/the-great-imitator?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/lucifer

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/devil?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/06/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

https://www.mormonwiki.com/Satan

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/o-that-cunning-plan-of-the-evil-one?lang=eng

The post 275: Satan The Opposition In All Things appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**274: Safe and Unsafe Boundaries in Mormonism** Jul 26, 2017
Today we hit on Boundaries. Healthy boundaries and more specifically unhealthy boundaries. We use the example of a Bishop’s interview with a youth. We directly talk about the distorted boundaries in this interaction but we also speak about how distorted boundaries travel with us through life and set up a relaxed and blind trust in later situations when we should be on guard. Does Mormonism as a culture break down healthy boundaries to the point that as adults we have lost the ability to know what safe boundaries are and to even know where these boundaries should be and why they should be? We talk about the abuse rates in Utah and end asking if there is something in Mormonism that is unhealthy? And if there is can we be vulnerable enough to deal with it?

The post 274: Safe and Unsafe Boundaries in Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**273: Valiancy in the Pre-mortal Life and False Doctrine** Jul 20, 2017
Today We cover the general topic of ascertaining God’s will both from our perspective and all the way to the top of how leaders have done it. We use the specific issue of theology surrounding valiancy in the Pre-mortal life to make the point. The question is simply this. If Church leaders have taught theology and even labeled some as doctrine believing that they had attained some deeper knowledge from God …. and that members of their day held and sustained those teachings as true…… only to have later leaders disavow those teachings and teach contrary to them…. and for todays members to know today’s leaders are right and have worked out the theological kinks, then what chance do any of us have in attaining and real understanding of what God is trying to reveal to the extent that in any given moment we know for sure we have it right? Today we show that what leaders taught in the past on valiance in the Pre-mortal life was not only offensive, and shameful, and hurtful but it runs counter to what the Church teaches on some of those issues today…. and perhaps there could be room to see us doing the same damaging behavior today in over reaching …. just on other things.

Thanks to Jonathon Streeter for his Blog Post on this subject of which with his permission I borrow heavily from!

Resource:

http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/mormon-handicaps/

The post 273: Valiancy in the Pre-mortal Life and False Doctrine appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Walk a Mile In Our Shoes: 002: LGBTQA Plus** Jul 13, 2017

Today The Walker Family join in a round-table discussion over LGBT issues and their personal journeys in this arena. Today you get to take some time to “walk a mile in their shoes” and see how this incredible family dealt with growth, change, and understanding. They are vulnerable. They are honest. And they lay their lives on the table for you and I to gain insight and perspective not only into their faith transition but also into our own.

The post Walk a Mile In Our Shoes: 002: LGBTQA Plus appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**272B: Bill Reel: Ask Me Anything Pt 2** Jul 04, 2017

We reached out to the listeners a few months back and asked the listeners if they could ask me (Bill Reel) anything, what would it be. This is part 2 of a series titled “Ask Me Anything”. Chris Bloxham is the host today and I am the one fielding the questions. Please check out part two which is also hosted by Chris as well as part three which will have a surprise guest host. Also please feel free to continue to send in your questions and thoughts regarding the podcast or me personally. I love the feedback and I love the questions. This podcast is about you the listener and what all of us in this space need to in order to hold this space faithfully. Thank you and may the Lord warm your shoulders.

– Bill Reel

The post 272B: Bill Reel: Ask Me Anything Pt 2 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**272A: Bill Reel: Ask Me Anything Pt 1** Jul 04, 2017

We reached out to the listeners a few months back and asked the listeners if they could ask me (Bill Reel) anything, what would it be. Today is part 1 of a series titled “Ask Me Anything”. Chris Bloxham is the host today and I am the one fielding the questions. Please check out part two which is also hosted by Chris as well as part three which will have a surprise guest host. Also please feel free to continue to send in your questions and thoughts regarding the podcast or me personally. I love the feedback and I love the questions. This podcast is about you the listener and what all of us in this space need to in order to hold this space faithfully. Thank you and may the Lord warm your shoulders.

– Bill Reel

The post 272A: Bill Reel: Ask Me Anything Pt 1 appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**271: Be Not Deceived – An Oversimplification** Jun 28, 2017

Today we tackle lesson 24 out of the current D&C and Church History manual. We tackle how blatant and demonstrably inaccurate this lesson is. We hit on a tribes need to diminish and marginalize those who distance themselves from the tribe. The need to diminish the substance of their reasons whittling them down to petty and weak. We also hit on the idea of blaming symptoms as if they are the cause when they are not. Today is about shining a light on the unethical tribal mechanisms we use to keep those in the tribe safe but at the expense of bearing false witness against those who have stepped away. If we are a “True Church” then we must be open to correcting such behaviors.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/01/the-milk-strippings-story-thomas-b-marsh-and-brigham-young/amp/

http://juvenileinstructor.org/thomas-b-marshs-reconciliation-with-george-w-harris/

http://www.mormonmatters.org/2010/04/15/symonds-ryder-and-a-crisis-of-faith/

http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/why-are-people-leaving-the-mormon-church/

https://mormondiscussions.org/mdpodcast/2017/03/post-alternative-voices-issues-ideas-lead-people-away/

http://www.whymormonsleave.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2014/02/Why-Mormons-Leave-Comprehensive-List-February-2014.pdf

The post 271: Be Not Deceived – An Oversimplification appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**270: Still on the Pews: A Heart to Heart: Gina Colvin and Bill Reel** Jun 28, 2017

Gina Colvin, the host of “A Thoughtful Faith” podcast and Bill Reel , host of “Mormon Discussion Podcast” get together for a chat about what it takes to still be engaged in the LDS Church when so many of their friends have left. They discuss the development of their young testimonies but reflect on how difficult it has become in recent years to love the church with the same enthusiasm they once had. They consider how the LDS Church could be better for those who crave a deeper and a kinder experience at church. They also consider their futures as Mormons.

The post 270: Still on the Pews: A Heart to Heart: Gina Colvin and Bill Reel appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**269: The Book of Mormon Witnesses** Jun 22, 2017

Today Chris and Clay join me again for a round-table discussion about the eleven witnesses to the Book of Mormon. We talk at length about our assumptions that the Three Witnesses has a spiritual event, that the Eight Witnesses had a physical event, whether their experience was consistent, and how the Institutional Church may have expressed certainty about the boundaries and constructs of their experience when in the end all these assumptions may in fact be problematic and paradoxical.

**RESOURCES:**

*Websites*

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/witnesses.html

http://signaturebooks.com/book-of-mormon-witnesses-revisited/

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/BOM-Witn.html

http://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1385&context=jbms

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865644606/15-witnesses-to-the-Book-of-Mormon.html

http://www.mormonthink.com/vogelwitnesses.htm

http://www.scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/z-Scholarly%20Articles/AndersonRL_BookOfMormonWitnesses.html

http://mit.irr.org/facts-on-book-of-mormon-witnesses-part-2

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/who-are-the-few-who-were-permitted-to-see-the-plates

https://journeyoffaithfilms.com/about-the-book-of-mormon/joseph-smith-the-three-witnesses/three-and-eight-witnesses

http://www.truthiseternal.com/bomw.html

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2016/06/peterson-v20-2016-pp247-260-PDF.pdf

http://lifeafter.org/book-of-mormon-witnesses/http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/golden_plates.html

*Books*

Marvin Hill’s book on Joseph Smith

Dan Vogel’s Early documents Vol I

Richard Anderson on the Witnesses

Grant Palmer’s book on Mormon Origins

Joseph Smith Papers

The post 269: The Book of Mormon Witnesses appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Walk a Mile In Our Shoes: 001: Meet The Walker’s** Jun 21, 2017

Today you get to meet the Walker’s. A Family in the midst of their own faith journey willing to open up and share their experience. Today is their first episode. Today your offered an opportunity to “walk a mile in their shoes”. They are vulnerable. They are honest. And they lay their lives on the table for you and I to gain insight and perspective not only into their faith transition but also into our own. I introduce to you…. My friends…. The Walkers.

The post Walk a Mile In Our Shoes: 001: Meet The Walker’s appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**268: The Spiritual Trauma of Mormonism** Jun 07, 2017

****Episode Warning**** : This episode discusses in a raw way the trauma and abuse in Mormonism. For those who feel triggered by such a conversation please avoid or at least avoid listening to this alone. This episode should be listened with others who honor and validate your faith journey. People whom you can press pause and have healthy conversation around our communal trauma. This episode also contains ***explicit language.*** Please do not listen around children or if you are sensitive to such display of raw emotion which is at the surface today. I try to pride myself on generally clean language but today my emotion is at a breaking point. I sense that those who have been through this pain will fully understand why it had to be stated this way. For those who haven’t…. I apologize upfront.

It has culminated. The pain is raw. The trauma is noticeable in me and in this community. It has to stop. We can’t keep telling the stories of others and preventing them from telling their own story. Mormonism is culpable but at every turn it tells those who have experienced the trauma that it is you and me who somehow did something or didn’t do something to get here. To avoid accountability is abusive and only magnifies the trauma. To tell those you have hurt that they can not voice their story and instead you will tell it for them and tell it incorrectly is abusive. It must stop. Today it stops. Today…… it ……. ends!

The post 268: The Spiritual Trauma of Mormonism appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**Mormon Discussion Update: Where We’re Going!!!!!** Jun 01, 2017

Today we want to update the listeners on the direction of the podcast and Mormon Discussion as an umbrella for various programs. Today we hit in 15 minutes the highlighted changes and needs of the program going forward.

Our shift to becoming an umbrella that hosts multiple podcast series.

Our financial report for 2016

Our increased need for financial support to support our growth and outreach

Our growth in listenership, downloads, and as a charitable organization.

Our deep appreciation for you as a listener and for those who financially support the podcast.

The post Mormon Discussion Update: Where We’re Going!!!!! appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

**267: Book Of Mormon Historicity** May 24, 2017

Today’s episode tackles the expanding space of Book of Mormon Historicity. We share the words of Jared Hickman, Patrick Mason, Richard Bushman, Sam Brown, Grant Hardy, Elder Oaks, and Elder Holland. We talk today about the space that is seemingly being created in this very moment. Do we see how unique of a moment we are in. The very scholars in the Church who are looked at by Church leadership as faithful informed voices are all at once enlarging the tent as they advocate that a non-historical belief in the Book of Mormon is a faithful space to hols that it can absolutely be a saving belief. The tent is being enlarged right before your very eyes. The question becomes if top leadership is open to helping Bishops and Stake Presidents to also see this ground as faithful saving ground for one to hold. Time will tell.

**RESOURCES:**

Elder Oaks On Historicity

Elder Holland PBS including Historicity

Grant Hardy On a non-literal saving faith

Patrick Mason on the truth cart

Richard Bushman on 19th century material

Sam Brown on translation and historicity

The post 267: Book Of Mormon Historicity appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

266: The “Mormon Primer” Document and “The Struggle is Real” Audio May 16, 2017

Recently we have released two published items. One was an audio program titled “To Our Loved Ones, The struggle is Real” which audibly walks people into the issues so they can have compassion and empathy for those who struggling. The second is a document titled “Mormon Primer” and it does the same thing. It walks folks into the messiness of Mormonism hoping to create compassion, empathy, and understanding. Would you please consider sharing these two items. My hope is that these will be helpful to you on your journey. My hope is these will be resources you see as helpful and useful. LASTLY…. Would you please consider clicking the first URL below and HELPING me by making suggested edits to the Mormon Primer to improve sentence structure and wording and to make it more objective, more fair, and more comprehensive. Feel free to submit entire new sections and feel free to make only a small edit or two. Please consider helping today. Thank you!