Macro N Cheese

Latest Episodes:

Ep 249 - Dismantling Green Colonialism Part 1 with Hamza Hamouchene Nov 04, 2023

Show notes

When we talk about the climate crisis, common wisdom says we’re all in it together. That implies that everyone is responsible, and everyone needs to do something about it. Our guest, Dr. Hamza Hamouchene, attacks this notion unequivocally: “The historical responsibility, of course, in the climate crisis lies within the industrialized capitalist West.” Most of the impacts are felt by communities in the global South, in countries that have been impoverished since colonial times. As developing nations they are additionally burdened by international financial institutions when, in fact, they are owed climate reparations.

Hamza is co-editor of Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region. He talks with Steve about the urgent need for climate justice and decolonization, while suggesting what a just transition would entail.

They emphasize the critical need for support of the Palestinians, whose cause must be included in discussions of colonialism, climate justice, global trade, and energy systems.

Part Two of this interview will be released next week.

Dr. Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA) and the North African Food Sovereignty Network (Siyada). He is currently the Arab region Programme Coordinator at the Transnational Institute (TNI). His work is focused on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and energy justice in the Arab region.

@BenToumert on Twitter

Ep 248 - RP Live Presents: Inside a Failed State Q & A with Michael Hudson Oct 28, 2023

Show notes

This week’s episode is another webinar from our RP Live series: Inside a Failed State, with Michael Hudson.

Michael prefers a Q&A format. Attendee questions revolved around US political economy, domestic and global. He discusses topics such as healthcare, de-dollarization, and the impact of economic policies on the working class. He emphasizes the need for a change in economic philosophy and highlights the government's ability to create money for social programs.

A common Hudson theme is the difference between the production and consumption economy, or what he calls the real economy, and the financial sector of assets and liabilities, of loans and debts, which is superimposed on the real economy.

“Money is spent in the real economy, but bank credit is spent really just to increase the debt overhead in the economy — the overhead of mortgage debt, of corporate debt, and speculative debt.”

A Michael Hudson episode always sparks lively, sometimes contentious, comments. His insights on finance, politics, and class power dynamics give fans and detractors alike something to chew on.

Michael Hudson is President of The Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends (ISLET), a Wall Street Financial Analyst, Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Support him at patreon.com/michaelhudson

Find his work at michael-hudson.com

Ep 247 - Degrowth and MMT with Christopher Olk and Colleen Schneider Oct 21, 2023

Show notes

As a society we are conditioned to believe we can f*ck with nature, with the living world, but the economy is immutable. We dare not try to change it. As MMTers we say: hahahahaha... *sob*

These two assumptions explain why we’re hurtling towards ecological catastrophe and why austerity has become a way of life.

Steve’s guests this week are Colleen Schneider and Christopher Olk. They are co-authors, with Jason Hickel, of the paper, How to Pay for Saving the World: Modern Monetary Theory for a Degrowth Transition.

Any listeners who have paid attention to Real Progressives’ journey over the past couple of years will be excited to add Colleen and Christopher’s insights to their intellectual arsenal. They are those rare scholars who manage to be both realistic and optimistic. (They are not suggesting that the right slate of politicians will tweak capitalism to make it heal the the planet and the population.)

They discuss how both MMT and the degrowth movement challenge the myth of scarcity. They look at the disparities between the Global North and South. They emphasize the interconnectedness of ecological and social issues, and the need to address both the predation on the Global South and the climate crisis.

They talk about non-reformist reform and the ways in which addressing national economic policies can be played out at the local level to radicalize people. By understanding the power dynamics within the financial system, MMT can empower and mobilize, allowing us to attack multiple problems as if they were one. Which they kind of are.

*****

Colleen Schneider is a PhD student and research assistant in the Institute for Ecological Economics at the Vienna University of Economics and Business and is a lecturer at Torrens University. She has a BA in Physics from UC Berkeley and MSc in Socio-Ecological Economics and Policy from WU.  Her research focuses on the political economy of monetary and fiscal policy in a social-ecological transformation. Her recent work brings an MMT-informed lens to degrowth scholarship. She teaches courses in social ecological economics, and the intersection of money, society, and environment, and has also worked and published in the field of environmental justice.

@ColleenFights on Twitter

Christopher Olk is a PhD candidate in political economy at Free University Berlin. His current research focuses on the links between international monetary power, offshore finance, and fossil fuels. Christopher is also active in the climate justice movement.

@christopher_olk on Twitter

Ep 246 - Fiat Socialism... The Convergence with Carlos García Hernández Oct 14, 2023

Show notes

Carlos García Hernández is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism through Modern Monetary Theory. He lays out the five goals of fiat socialism:

Full employment
Full and prudent use of material resources
The guarantee of the five essentials to every citizen: food, housing, clothing, health services, and education
Social security at all major exposed points in the social structure (eg, old age, sickness, accident, temporary unemployment, and childbearing)
Labor standards, to be assured by labor unions

Carlos maintains that any society achieving these five goals at the same time and permanently should be called socialist, no matter the size of the private sector.

Steve and Carlos discuss the philosophical foundations of both fiat socialism and Marxism. They also look at the role of the IMF and the possibilities for monetary sovereignty in developing nations.

Carlos García Hernández is the founder and director of Lola Books, a publishing house that has introduced MMT to Spanish and German readers. He is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism through Modern Monetary Theory.

@Carlos_G_H_ on Twitter Or X

Ep 245 - Decolonizing Our Minds with Fadhel Kaboub Oct 07, 2023

Show notes

This week’s episode welcomes back Fadhel Kaboub, a valued friend of this podcast. He and Steve discuss the concept of just transition and the problems with carbon markets as a solution to climate change. They stress the injustice of historic polluters buying carbon credits to continue polluting while displacing vulnerable communities in developing countries. It is yet another capitalist solution. The current global financial architecture, established during colonial times, is neither designed to address the climate crisis nor to promote sustainable prosperity.

They emphasize the need for systemic change and a new vision for Africa and the global South that prioritizes food sovereignty, energy sovereignty, and industrial policy. They talk about the power dynamics between labor and capital, the role of governments in perpetuating inequality, and the importance of mobilizing and organizing for change.

They highlight the narrow constructs that society is allowed to consider, which prevent true transformation and progress. They emphasize the importance of recognizing our interconnectedness and the need for what Fadhel calls “a movement of movements.”

Fadhel Kaboub is an Associate Professor of economics at Denison University, the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. Check out his recent work at https://justtransitionafrica.org/

@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

Ep 244 - The Trouble with Lula with Daniel Conceição Sep 30, 2023

Show notes

A head of state whose economic policies promote austerity and fiscal responsibility is:

Conservative
Progressive
N/A (not applicable)

Daniel Conceição is with us for his third visit to Macro N Cheese. He and Steve discuss the failures of both right and left governments. Some broad strokes of Brazil’s historical patterns are not so different from those in the US. The last left(ish) president, Dilma Rousseff, abandoned her Leninist roots and hopped aboard the privatization train. It wasn’t enough to protect her from impeachment, however.

It’s easy to see parallels between Bolsonaro and Trump as well as the lesser evilism we’re facing in both our countries today. Despite President Lula's progressive rhetoric, his economic policies prioritize deficit reduction. His administration is committed to delivering fiscal results to financial markets over public investment in education, healthcare, and other social services.

Daniel touches on the “dollarizing” of Argentina's economy and explains that it can only exacerbate instability and conditions of scarcity.

Daniel and Steve talk about the insights gained from Modern Monetary Theory and agree that building power beyond elections requires a paradigm shift in our thinking.

Daniel Negreiros Conceição did his undergraduate studies in Economics at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil and his postgraduate studies at UMKC (under Professors Wray, Kelton, et al). He is a professor of macroeconomics and public finance at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro. He helped create the Institute for Functional Finance and Development (iffdbrasil.org), where he currently serves as president, and he helps run the Brazilian Modern Money Network (https://mmtbrasil.com/) aimed at producing more easily accessible material for teaching MMT to the wider public.

@stopthelunacy on Twitter

Ep 243 - RP Live presents: Africa’s Quest for Economic Liberation with Ndongo Samba Sylla Sep 23, 2023

Show notes

“The impossibility of economic catch-up does not imply that the citizens of the global South are condemned to suffer from poverty and inequality. It only implies that capitalism has nothing to offer as a prospect of a decent life for the vast majority of humanity...”

In this webinar from our popular RP Live series, Ndongo Samba Sylla tells us of the challenges facing Africa through the story of Thomas Sankara and breaks down what Sankara meant when he told the people to "live as African.” Ndongo suggests that the way forward combines the insights provided by MMT with Sankara’s plans for African liberation and development. He calls it MMT-ing Sankara or Sankara-ing MMT. Since some see MMT as apolitical, Ndongo is making a crucial point. He also goes into detail as to why cancelling international debt, though necessary, is not enough.

After his presentation, Ndongo takes questions from attendees on the role of BRICS and potential benefits for Africa in a multi-polar world. He touches on the CFA franc and explains why economic exploitation is the most vicious form of imperialism.

Ndongo Samba Sylla is a Senegalese development economist. He has previously worked as a technical advisor at the Presidency of the Republic of Senegal and was Programme Manager at the West Africa office of the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation. He has recently been appointed the Africa Director for Research and Policy at IDEAs (International Development Economics Associates)

He is the co-author of Africa’s Last Colonial Currency: The CFA Franc Story and author of The Fair Trade Scandal. Both books can be ordered through the RP Bookshop on our website: realprogressives.org

@nssylla on Twitter

Ep 242 - Monetary Operations: Coordinated vs. Consolidated with Eric Tymoigne Sep 16, 2023

Show notes

Understanding how monetary sovereign governments create and spend money means looking at the Treasury department and the central bank or, in the US, the Federal Reserve.

Economist Eric Tymoigne explains two approaches to understanding the relationship: the consolidated and the collaborative, or cooperative, version of the Treasury and the Fed.

The consolidated approach merges the Fed and the Treasury into one entity and analyzes the implications of this merger on public finance. It emphasizes that taxes and government securities don’t fund the government, but rather, the government spends by crediting accounts. (This comes as no surprise to MMTers.)

The consolidated approach also highlights the importance of injecting reserves into the economy before taxes can be collected or government securities can be sold. The coordinated approach recognizes the separate roles of the Treasury and the Fed but emphasizes the extensive coordination between the two entities.

Eric walks us through these operations and touches on the relationship with private banking and the role of reserves on the international stage.

Listening to this episode, you can’t help but conclude that the ways in which the US manages monetary operations are not consistent with budgetary needs. It’s hard to see how it has anything to do with provisioning our society.

Eric Tymoigne is an Associate Professor of Economics at Lewis & Clark College, Portland, Oregon, and Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.

@tymoignee on Twitter

Ep 241 - The MMT Lens with Bill Mitchell Sep 09, 2023

Show notes

When someone associates Modern Monetary Theory with left or right wing politics, they’re signaling they know nothing of MMT and are simply associating it with some of its proponents. MMTers are political, MMT is not. Regarding degrowth, this week’s guest, Bill Mitchell, explains:

“The way I think about it is that MMT is compatible with deep, hard industry pollution and massive growth if you want it to be. And it is also compatible with a highly sustainable strategy to reduce our reliance on mass consumption and to divert our economic activity, which we normally think is gross domestic product, to divert that into sustainable products. In other words, radically change the composition of our output.”

In other words, MMT neither supports nor opposes the degrowth agenda. In this episode, Bill describes degrowth as a value system and strategic approach to the future of humanity on the planet.

MMT, on the other hand, is a lens or framework for understanding the capacities of currency issuance and the consequences of using that capacity. He and Steve highlight that MMT is compatible with both growth-oriented and sustainable strategies, and that degrowth policies would require significant investment from the state. They also discuss the challenges and obstacles to implementing a degrowth agenda, including the resistance of powerful vested interests and the potential for military conflict.

The conversation also delves into the historical and political factors that have shaped the current domestic and global politics, including the counterattack by corporations and the wealthy against social democratic majorities in the early 1970s. They discuss the role of ignorance and media manipulation in perpetuating the current system and the importance of education and knowledge in empowering individuals and fostering solidarity movements.

Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. He is also a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop. Follow his work on https://billmitchell.org/blog/

@billy_blog on Twitter

Ep 240 - Can Unions Reclaim the Strike? with Joe Burns Sep 02, 2023

Show notes

“I think within every labor struggle is a kernel of a broader transformation of society. So, it's interesting because Harry Bridges, who was the longtime leader of the longshore workers on the West Coast from the 1930s to the 1960s, when he talked about strike, he said every strike is a mini-revolution.”

On the eve of the strike authorization vote by American Airlines flight attendants, Joe Burns spoke with Steve about the labor movement, unions, and class struggle. Joe, a labor lawyer and negotiator, has been a guest on Macro N Cheese twice before. His focus, then and now, is on the importance of class struggle unionism and the need for union leadership that is willing to engage in the broader fight, confronting power at its core.

“When you think about it, every labor struggle has inherent in it the struggle over control and power. And who's running society … For that reason, it tends to inherently have this radicalism buried within it. And I think our task as class struggle unionists is to help uncover and further that.”

Steve and Joe discuss the role of the corporate media in minimizing and obfuscating issues involving labor and class. They look at the ways in which both monetary and political policy are used to tame workers and reinforce the power of corporations.

Joe Burns is a veteran union negotiator and labor lawyer with over 25 years' experience negotiating labor agreements. He is currently the Director of Collective Bargaining for the Association of Flight Attendants, CWA. He graduated from the New York University School of Law. Prior to law school he worked in a public sector hospital and was president of his AFSCME Local. He is the author of Strike Back, Reviving the Strike, and Class Struggle Unionism.

@MarchOnTheBoss on Twitter

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