Thomas McConkie is the founder of Lower Lights School of Wisdom and has a passion for the world’s Wisdom traditions. Raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, at age 18 he discovered meditation, which remains a wellspring of inspiration over 20 years later. Thomas is trained as a developmental researcher, facilitator, and mindfulness teacher. He hosts the Lower Lights Sangha in Salt Lake City, Utah, with the intention of supporting seekers of diverse faith orientations to become all they are meant to become.

Highlights

5:40 Transformations of Faith: participating willingly in the process of becoming as Christ is
7:30 Talking and listening is relationship and our relationship with God can also reach a level of profound intimacy
9:40 Our lives are moving at a frenetic pace and we have an opportunity to make space for stillness, opening up to connection and to the blessings God has waiting for us
15:00 Presence: the Kingdom of Heaven is among us and the more we open ourselves up, the more we understand that there are no ordinary moments
17:45 Why we need to practice being present in our lives: example of being in the grocery line
21:20 The more we connect with ourselves, the more we realize that all we are doing is offering our state of being to others: our quality of being is our service
24:35 Defining presence: being fully present in the body with both the physical, emotions, and thoughts

• Part of being present is forgiving the conditions of life: Thy will be done

31:00 Metaphor of digestion
33:00 Experience with a coworker who explained his environment to explain any loss of presence
35:10 Fakeness: I’m overwhelmed and I don’t know how to be more present so I’m going to fake it

• Recognizing this in others

37:30 Stillness isn’t about quiet but about being fully human
40:00 Connecting this to the first principles and ordinances
41:10 Repentance and creating space

• Making space for the suffering of others is a first step toward healing
• Helping someone begin a practice of mindfulness as a step toward repentance
• Divine confidence: presence is a divine attribute
• Getting out of the way so the Atonement can work in us

50:40 The pain of others resonates in us, and a commitment to practicing kindness within ourselves helps with the overwhelm

• The more committed we are, the more people realize they can be themselves with us
• Recognizing the pain body in others

58:45 Awareness that we are often defended against God: Can we notice the ways we keep the light out as a defense against the uncomfortable?

Links

transformationsoffaith.org (Use code LEADINGSAINTS25 for 25% off the course)
Where to Start When Members Doubt | An Interview With Thomas Wirthlin McConkie

Transcript

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00:00:00 – 00:05:01

Welcome back to another episode of the leading saints. Podcast if you’ve enjoyed content on this podcast. It’s important that. I tell you about the leading saints newsletter that we send out every week this newsletter keeps you up to date on all the current leading saints content releases including podcasts articles online events and even live events. That might be happening in your own area in this newsletter. We also recommend some past episodes and written articles that you don’t want to miss each week. We include additional leadership perspectives and thoughts. That you can only find in the weekly newsletter. So you definitely don’t want to miss out to subscribe to the weekly newsletter simply text. The word lead to four seven four seven four seven or visit leading saints dot org slash. Subscribe again text. The word l. e. a. d. two four seven four seven four seven or visit leading saints dot org slash subscribe. So you don’t miss any future leading saints content. I’m with a monte. How’re you monty. And where are you from. And tell us about your experience leading saints. Great kirk from california came upon your podcast a couple years ago through a listening to another podcast and just really enjoyed. The content leading saints does provide in just a different perspective In mike in healthy in others just you know for further the work in different ways that i think is positive positive. Brothers goal of. Why do you support leading saints. What what is it about courtly saints. Because i appreciate the opportunity to hear. Different perspectives on different marginalized in the church Specially lgbtq with those. That have had some crisis. I think there’s a lot of good good support out there especially individuals that you’ve had interview lenz a lot of help to others to stay within the church or at least how we can be more price like in loving as the savior was to those two individuals and recognize that. There’s all types of individuals in the church and we’d love for them to be with us and different ways we can. We can make that happen. Welcome back to the leading saints. Podcast my name is kurt. Franken your host. This is the second time. I’ve done this introduction because i went way long the first time. So let’s see if i can keep this concise. Now you knew to leading saints. We are five a one. C three nonprofit organization dedicated to helping latter day saints. Be better prepared to lead and we do that through content creation and publishing. And this like this podcast right. We have thousands of articles on our website leading saints dot. Org we send out a weekly newsletter with unique content there and We just hope that. If you found us you’ll subscribe and really dive into this content because it’s blessed not only my life but many other lives of leaders in individual latter day saints across the world now in this episode. I interview thomas wirthlin kanchi. A man is love. Thomas i actually. I met him and interviewed him back in november of two thousand fifteen. So we’ve known each other for quite a few years. I’ve loved following his journey. He has a remarkable story which we don’t go into in detail in this episode. I encourage you will link to that episode back in november. Two thousand fifteen also. The cultural hall did a great interview with him as well goes into details of his story really inspiring. He’s the grandson of land. And i believe the great nephew. If i’m remembering right of bruce armor kanchi as though that’s where the woodland makaki come from and just a phenomenal story and what he’s doing in. The church blessing lives through his mindfulness practice and thought connecting it to the gospel. He’s actually worked with the faith matters organization and other great nonprofit organization and they’ve put together a course called transformations of faith. And that’s what we’re going to talk about in this interview. Which i love so much. I hope you love it as much as i do. The transformation of faith is a contemporary expression of timeless wisdom as understood to the lens of the restored gospel. So that’s sort of the summary of what this course is and i’ll be honest. I’m afraid maybe some traditional orthodox latter day saint leaders are listening to this and thinking as to you know. We’re not buddhist. We don’t need this meditation. Mindfulness stuff but hang with me. Okay listen discussion. I promise or we don’t take in a weird direction or anything and i’ve gone through every minute of this Transformations face course. And it is the five stars. I mean just awesome. I my wife went through it. She loved it. This can add so much to your faith. Experience in our latter day saint tradition that in the restored gospel that can’t encouraging enough and the end the the episode. We’re going to give you a discount code if it’s something that you want to jump into because we want as many people experiencing this so all right. I did much better about half the time on this intro.

00:05:01 – 00:10:00

So let’s jump into it. So here’s my interview. With thomas worth akaki gary m in salt lake city with thomas. Mcconnachie are you. thomas occurred. I’m doing well good to see you here. Well i’m glad we’ve had conversations in the past. I’m always looking forward to our conversation and you recently have a new course. Masterclass class what he call on this thomas. We’ve called the different things. It’s an online course. It an on demand. You can watch a five minute video ten minute video whenever you have time but it’s thirteen hours of online content around the topics we’re gonna explore the that’s right and what. How do you explain it. Like mindfulness meditation How would you introduce it to a an orthodox soliciting audience. I would say to. This ought to our audience. I build on the concept of transfiguration. The we see in the scriptures the the greek term is metamorphosis sometimes just in modern like you know parlance transformation like how do we change. How do we continue to grow and develop being. I’ve taken my passions of meditation as well as the field of developmental psychology and Just different bits of wisdom. I’ve gleaned over the years from mentors and teachers and really applied them specifically to the restored gospel. So that’s that the courses about transformations of faith. That’s about how were asked to become even as christ. That’s a process and we can participate in that process willingly knowingly and so this is where to start here is what’s intriguing to me. Is you know the listening audience. A very leaders in the church or those who are maybe more mature and have been in the orthodox traditions that we have for years and years and right now like you know meditation. Mindfulness is sort of becoming more of a thing in the secular world in just everyday life where we have these head space apps. Calm apps people. Are you know. The research is really evident obvious as far as like meditation and in our church. We sort of feel like we’ll know we sort of have our model that works. I don’t need to go home in the corner. Because i have my scripture study where i sit and read and and contemplate their so. How do you like build that bridge between the two or or just show that. There’s really not much difference. There like how you introduce that orthodox crowd to what you’re saying rather than thomas guy’s got a weird out there sounds that sounds you ag turned. Yeah isa’s the turnouts. That’s what here i mean to me. We can sit in a really simple way like right now. You and i are having a conversation. There’s talking there’s listening right now. i’m talking you’re listening in a moment you’ll be talking. I’ll be listening. That’s relationship every relationship. Involves that action and that receptivity. I noticed in my prayer life when i was younger that there was this whole world of pike receiving of listening like just listening. Like when you’re with a good friend and like if you’re both so present together that it doesn’t even matter who’s talking anymore because you’re both talking and listening is the same thing. I got really interested in that mystery. And i realized like you know i’ve been talking when i pray but like it’s fallen flat from sick of hearing my own voice. I’m sick of hearing my own thoughts. And then when i stopped for five seconds to listen to something i can’t really hear anything because my head so full of stuff i’ve been thinking. Yeah and i think people have that experience. I realized like there’s a way to elect really go so deep that what’s been called in christianity. The prayer of quiet is there’s a way to go so deep into the quiet that what we start to fill in the silences this profound intimacy with god. This profound presence of the spirit and instructs us beyond any language can put words to how profound the messages but it converts our hearts than it inspires us to do things that our minds would not have thought of. Yeah right in feeling. So much like we have such a strong orthodox tradition and you mix that with human nature things become suddenly very routine then. It’s like okay. I’m a stripper. Study okay that for fifteen. As i’m gonna pray go down. Thank you for this. This and now moving on i gotta get to that meeting in now. We’re in this meeting. And so then we we lose space for that quietness. We forget that. There’s even value there. That’s right There’s a bit of a i mean you know i don’t wanna be alarmist here but like at a cultural level It’s a bit of a catastrophe if you look at the way. The role of stillness and silence has kind of faded into the background and the foreground. There’s just this frenetic. Pace of information coming from every direction the life of the soul flourishes in stillness and silence. And i think as latter day saints we have an opportunity to really take a stand this radical stand of just silence and seeing you love.

00:10:00 – 00:15:03

Thomas mertens phrase. He writes sentence seeds of contemplation. He essentially says sit still and let god do some work on you. So what would you say to an individual. Who’s been in our faith tradition for so long and they just sir like i get the science thing but i don’t. I don’t see the reason for it. Why you’re why. Do i need to make space for stillness. I read my scriptures. I feel that inspiration. So what’s the what would be the the argument. They’re saying he gives us a shot or and what does that even look like to give it a chance totally. Will i do this for a living. I just work with students. And groups. On sunday schoolteacher too. I mean seven days a week. I’m like you know offering teaching some form of this. I would challenge anybody. Who makes that claim. And there’s a really simple test for this like look at your day to day life. And when you’re at the grocery store and the cleric slowly and clumsily and you just want to get home because you’re tired from work you’re tired from kids or you’re just tired. You feel that kind of that quality of like restlessness in patients whether whether it’s like driving to your next appointment taking the kids to the doctors needing to cook dinner. Whatever like if we’re honest throughout the day were feeling a little bit hurried. Were feeling maybe a little bit ragged. We’re feeling perhaps disconnected from ourselves disconnected from the divine. I’ve never met a human being who doesn’t really vividly have that experience every day in modern life. So the the practice that we’re talking about today that i get into a lot of depth and transformations of faith. It’s it’s making more room for connecting deeply with the best of ourselves and all of the blessings that god is just eager terrain down a if we’d make room for it if we’re like actually receive it in and even in the everyday bland moments like talked about just standing in the grocery line right. Knee is the father of a six year. Old boy like the simplest task of you know before. And even i have my moments. Now were bedtime can be such a high stress thing. Because it’s like. Just put the pajamas on like your whole. And let’s do lists you know but it’s like this this process it. It would take me three minutes to do what it takes you to do thirty. But now i’m just finding myself. I’m just going to be uber. Present with my son as he goes through this process. You know and there’s a meditation aspects so it’s not always what i’ve learned is not always that you have to be in a quiet room and hunting and silence but it’s just finding that presence in everyday life right totally. I mean we have our exercises. The help us access silence. That stillness doesn’t mean we withdraw from life and mike our new professionals. Oh i sit still eight hours a day means like we just we learn to touch into it. We created channel. We open a portal into this quality of stillness of presidents where we are more likely to receive a message that god is eager for us to receive. But then we’re out serving than we’re living our lives right. It’s true stillness movement. When we’re actually like led by the spirit There’s a profound stillness in our movement. Yeah in in those experiences with my six year old son. There’s been those moments where i just like crate space and be present with him during that bedtime bedtime process and time. I hear things like look how much you love him. Like i love you that much and more you know like there’s just this connection with the divine but also connected with my son. Mike mike pod. Now i love him even more because now i’m relating to my the love that my father ask for me you know. And as you say that i feel the like spirit of it and the energy of inequality of it like it’s a moment that’s a a moment of contemplation in your life. Not because you decided you’re going to set your timer and be mindful for five minutes. Yes that has its place. But it’s like when you’re attuned to that frequency and you realize like you are an acting the same relationship with your son as god is an acting with all of his children. Yeah yeah and these practices that are talked about in transformations of faith. I think they just make it more likely. I’ve found in my life and with you know in my students lives that if we do some simple practices it makes it more likely that will receive those divine messages like the one. You just write beautifully share. Nf found that as you sort of apply these things in everyday life in those simple fill like blend moments when it comes time for the structured scripture study were near in your office alone reading. The scriptures that contemplation is sort of already has some momentum to go to a deeper level. Absolutely you know what i found when jesus talks about the kingdom of heaven is among us. One way i translate that is there are no ordinary moments in creation itself. Human life itself this whole station we find ourselves is extraordinary.

00:15:04 – 00:20:05

And you know the more we open ourselves to this channel of divine light. The more we realized the most moment is utterly extraordinary. And my sense is that’s how god raises up. That’s how he prepares spirits for eternity by saying you know you think this is amazing. You’re just learning to like withstand this much divine light in a wait till there’s more yeah and we’re sort of moving into a conversation about presence here but like those you know seeing ordinary moments as as very diviner extraordinary like one one practice. I’ve i’ve started doing that. As far as get me in a in a mindset of presence is. I don’t know if you ever look at like a a photo thirty years ago. And it’s just a random photo but you’re more intrigued about like the background like. Oh yeah like. I remember when we had that tree there or cynical grocery store like how different the products look as if i mentioned safeway drank. I and i often like think if i was an a time machine thirty years in the future and it was in this moment like what would i notice like what look how do couches now or like the paint how. There’s no holograms here. Whatever it is but if forces me to be like yeah. If i was from the future what would i appreciate this right now. That’s i don’t know it’s the crazy practice. What do you think it’s a lovely practice. I mean anything that calls us to be more. Given to the present moment at the present moment is titus philosophers described. The present moment is the fountain ever on this gushing forth of divine creativity. And we’re just kind of out in our like what’s next checklist. Kind of mode in life. Everything seems like a burden like it’s getting in our way but when we move into that kind of way of seeing like you were describing our senses become very clear everything becomes very vivid and intense. Translucent greenfield Animating yeah and so. Why is that important. Why is it important to be present like if some of the thing. I don’t see the big deal. Like why do. I need to focus on the here and now you got some good things coming up or eternal life is coming up. Yeah it depends on. Who’s asking who’s asking you know. Why should i be more present. Why should i be more mindful. If it’s a church leader. I would have you know some and he gets. I’m just coming from a traditional orthodox latter day saints whose You know it’s just thursday or friday. I’m just going to the store. Like why do i need to be present in this moment. Why can’t i just look forward to the time. I’m going to have with my family tonight. Totally i love that. I love that question. What comes to my heart when your stat is both individual and collective on an individual level. I would say we need that because we all need forgiveness we all need grace and we all need christ tournament and when we really slowed down and make space ourselves we allow the spirit too. I really heal. Our wounded are fallen humanity so to be present for me and my world and my language. It’s to participate more fully in the atonement in this moment. Yeah and that’s a profound experience but as soon as we have that experience we realize everyone around me just like me like their disturbances. Their pain their upsets their grief. Their loss their dislike me. And to the extent that i can be a little bit more whole by participating in the tone meant i can become a channel for them to remind them that they have the same access to the atonement that i do. Yeah so any. True healing. We received from participating in the atonement. we spontaneously relies. We have an opportunity in service to remind other people the good news. One thing i learned from that is just that even when you are in the grocery line like taking the time to be present and realized that crisis there with you even in the grocery line and that there’s so much grace as you say that comes from that moment an additional opportunity to connect with divine even in the most simplistic location. That’s right. I mean you know that person working the cash register. Maybe the like ten people before you felt kind of impatient and frustrated and that person just getting that energy all day like man can’t hurry up and then all of a sudden kurt walks up and he’s like open and there’s some there’s a flavor of stillness in him and that person just received it as a gift like even if he or she doesn’t say there’s like nine. Thanks for not being in a hurry and thanks for telling me. I’m not doing a good enough job. Just thank you. Yeah there’s grayson that yeah. It’s a tender mercy. Yeah absolutely and the gospel context Here that have like be christ like like be loving and at may mean to you. Know love the grocery line. But i’m one of those people’s like don’t talk to me like i’m just doing the the cashiers like talking about what you’re buying.

00:20:06 – 00:25:03

Listen lady i don’t. I’m not here for the conversation about what i’m buying but you can’t get there right and so he’s like i should be more christ like talk all right but but by going. This man might vilasrao like you’re constantly preparing yourself so that win. That does congress saying oh she needs. She’s actually looking for deeper grace through human interaction totally. I’m in a place where i can give that a huge just to that absolutely and let me just say something. That’s coming up in the moment. Yes the lovely kurtinaitis dancing here. Lovely over here police for my home for him but You know the more we connect with ourselves more. We just connect with spirit connect with the fullness of life to moment the more we realized that all wherever doing for each other are are over whom were commanded to love is ourselves. All we’re doing is offering them of being whatever words we say to them. Whatever service we’re doing for them or not. It’s like if our quality of being isn’t there. If i break my neighbors leaves because it’s a commandment than and i’m supposed to but i’m kind of in a hurry and i don’t stop and look them in the. I’m just trying to get to the next thing. My quality of being will be the service. But if i come with like a full heart and i’m just overflowing with love and mike thank you for being my neighbor. It’s just a joy to like. Be in your life a little bit. It’s not like raking their leaves. This is a totally arbitrary example by the way although someone did rake my leaves recently and it may have been different. And and that is and he listened to this podcast. Thank you so if you will now shout you will not be named because you know. But i know he’s on a treadmill writer he’s always takes me from the anyways. Continue on this really the direct. My we’ve done like the gift of it was his quality of being right. I was relieved. I actually covert positive at the time and really sick. Yeah but it was like this guy’s heart. I could feel and it went deeply because it wasn’t like oh i would have never been able to rake the leaves. You probably could have gotten around. The i coulda called another neighbor. Right could take could have paid for someone at the leaves. Weren’t that thing. But it’s like pack to this like simplicity any time we’re with our fellow man woman neighbor. It’s our quality of being that is the conversion. That is the atonement and we’re deeply available for we become a conduit channel vessel for it or were somewhere else. Yeah and that’s what. I started transitioning to the leadership. Context is these roles as leaders can be so administrative. You know what’s the next meeting. Sacramento starts in ten minutes. I gotta get there. What about that. Details as the sacraments setup and and then you want that connection you want to share that the state of being with others and uplift them and so typically. You’re like you turn into mr plastic. And he turn you told my big right but you’re really not present. You’re sort of trying to throw happiness at them and hope something changes within them. This is a very human response. It’s actually an intelligent human response. Here’s what i mean. We live in an age of overwhelm. There’s too much stuff to do. There’s too much coming at us every one of us many times a day. If we pay attention we realize i’m overwhelmed. There’s too much coming in. there’s too much to do. So we disconnect from ourselves. We shut a lot of ourselves down because it’s just too much information. It’s too much sensation. I gotta disclose down and the moment disconnect from ourselves we turn on like you just did like the personality. Yeah i’m gonna play a part that i’m supposed to play but i’m actually disconnected from myself and when i can’t feel myself i can’t fill somebody else. And the power of our like potential communion our relationship. It can’t come through. Yeah those type. deeper in. The context of leadership is in partnership with this concept of presence. Yeah being present because we should define that word the presence. It’s not a word that we use like a lot. I would say you know our latter day saint culture Do you mind if i something like grounded. One of the most beautiful doctrines to me in restoration. Theology in our church is the doctrine of incarnation than you know. Y other branches of christianity. Talk about the fall and we talk about the fall as an ascent like you know to actually fall from the garden was to ascend. Our godly hood are godliness to have a physical body. It’s actually a greater fullness of joy to take on the body and join it with the spirit right so to me when i talk about presence. It’s actually embodying all of us. It’s being fully present in my body. It’s being fully present my emotions fully present in my thoughts fully present in the intelligence. That is my spirit. Like all the parts me that constitute my uniqueness on my fullness. that’s all right here right so it’s a divine doctrine to like really inhabit these bodies temples.

00:25:03 – 00:30:02

Not just the physical body but like our emotional being. Our mental being are for energetic. Being all of that is part of our divine inheritance and we can exercise it right. That’s what i mean by presence and so is there to me in that processes. I think a lot of people who not familiar with these practices are topics that they like. So i just. I’m just here. You know i feel it. And it’s almost if incorrectly from wrong but there’s almost this level of of acceptance of all that ride saiga. Maybe you are a little overweight. And you’re you’re going to accept that for the moment realized that you’re a spiritual being that is loved by an eternal creator and i mean is the acceptance play a role in of accepting the present state. Is that your to off the rails here not at all. I mean i would say that the virtue of christian virtue comes to mind for his forgiveness. Because if we’re honest with ourselves if we become really president right now on this moment kind of notice how am i doing right now. He how my phone in my body. I feel in my heart and so forth. If i’m honest there’s no question there will be like some form of disappointment like how this relationship by men like. This is a lot harder than i wanted it to be all my career. It’s not my family. There’s things that don’t go the way we want them to. And part of being present is like really forgiving conditions for not being what they hoped they would be and as we forgive ourselves and as we forgive the conditions of life. We get a glimpse. I’ve gotten glimpses into like all like when when christ is in gaza mini and he’s saying that will be done talk about a condition that i wouldn’t like you know i’m in my thirties. I got my friends. I got my you know my posse but oh it’s time to like do that thing. You came here to do and and crisis like i wish this pat does cup. Good pass but that will be done so to me. Yeah yeah acceptance like my translation of that in like christian doctrine is die will be done and when we practice like really practice. That prayer by we’ll be done a thousand times a day man. Life is full of alomar grace than we notice and that example because obviously because it’s an example of christ where he took a moment to recognize that feeling in him it was obviously wasn’t sinful it wasn’t a weakness feeling but it was a feeling on the lesson. He recognized human. Of course he wanted to cut the past. How many cups do we want to pass. Every single day yeah ryan acknowledging is allowed him to fill it and move through it thrown and do what he was saying exactly powerful and to give the sort of a maybe a real life Leadership example. i. I know you know my time serving as bishop. Sometimes as i was hurrying to get to the church that evening for a list of appointments may be short with my family in a rush maybe my wife and i sort of had a bit of a disagreement arguments. She was frustrated. I was leaving there. She was with the kids and now in the bishop’s office. Somebody’s coming into her with me. Something so personal to their heart and their experience and steal like wrestling somewhere my mind with this conflict with my wife and then just to feel and be like you know. I wish that cup would go away. I wish it would pass for me but it’s okay it’s there i recognize it and now i’m going to try and connect with this person. Perfect example and mike is there. Is there a bishop or a church leader on the planet that hasn’t had a thousand experiences like that where they show up to a meeting to fulfill their calling. And it’s like oh. I don’t feel relaxed as i was would be optimal. I don’t fill as president. I don’t feel as inspired. I don’t those loving is would be optimal. But here i am but this is what it is and actually make some room for that like i connect with yourself like oh manner just fill fill in the blank and then that next step of now that i’m connected myself i can actually feel make contact with this other person and maybe i’m inspired to say look like man. I’m feeling a little rushed right now. Maybe we could just take a moment to settle in and fill the spirit together. We can ask for something. We need them. That facilitates the magic. That could happen between us. If there was room for exactly and i remember several times is like a okay. Might six thirty points over okay. You know her husband’s leaving her okay. That’s traumatic oh this person just walked in three seconds later and he’s addicted to porn and it’s like almost to just take three minutes. Shut the door by yourself and just breathe throwing a moment and just be like okay I give this to god. I’m just and that’s sort of the traditional meditation practice. You’re always sort of bringing back right back to the center. You’re doing that in real life right. Total in those lists appointments just bringing back centering and then trying to engage in that space. Yeah no i. I said fills reinspired and just like so practical as an example like this is like this is human life.

00:30:02 – 00:35:08

We run into these challenges all the time. I like the metaphor of digestion. It’s like when we eat too much too fast or meals to frequently. How does your gut feel. This never happens in our neck. We all we all know that. It’s like oh yeah. When i ate too much i feel awful for the next few hours. What we’re not as sensitive to is at the level of sensory experience. What we hear what we see what we feel what we speak. That’s actually its own kind of like nutrition. That’s like moving through our soul. Our spirits digestive tract and were not as sensitive to knowing like i over eaten at that subtle level motionlessly mentally. And like like you said in that example. When i am overwhelmed when i’ve eaten too much when i just got a walker because someone came to the door and brought a lot of suffering. That’s fine but to give myself space for that. And like acknowledged like whoa. That was a lot. Let me take that. And let me digest. And then when it’s time the next meal i’m ready for and it’s nourishing but if we overeat overeating causes cancer. Yeah yeah in running back to leadership. It’s that i remember especially as if you’re so anxiously engaged right. You’re like so in it. I mean and it’s it’s a ride right in. Its its spiritual. Ec people’s lives change. It’s remarkable. i remember the few weeks after. I was released as a bishop. I like came this realization. Like oh. I didn’t realize how exhausted i was on sunday. It’s like it was just you know after five years of doing this. It just became part of the routine. And i didn’t realize that right and so i had sort of over eaten the spiritual experience and to just be able to step back in and let it digest on some level. And that’s what this mindfulness creating space and this is sort of what you’re you’re totally is a story often share when we’re talking about being present with each other and right now we’re talking about in the context of the gospel and service really like truly loving our neighbor. I had a colleague that i worked with for years and as we were first working together i noticed that when we’re on the phone he would say something like. Hey i’m just like going out the door right now getting in the car and you know just letting you know and or come on the highway right now or like my son. Mike come in in the next thirty minutes just to give a heads up. And like i remember having a conscious experience of ike Like i literally thought like how. It’s kind of weird by every time anything’s happening in his environment is telling me about it and then i realized after i got to know him he was actually practicing. Presence just through his actions he was saying you are utterly important to me. If i’m even five percent not president of wanna let you know and my intention is to come back full presence and i can’t always be fully present because it’s live but i want you to know that you matter to me and so i’m going to be president just just our undivided president. Anyone who’s raised. The child knows that like the kid knows you’re faking it when you’re fifty percent present and when you’re a hundred percent present there’s a there’s a nourishment that happens between the two of us that we i don’t think science really understands fully what’s happening there. But at the level of the soul were feeding each other and were redeeming each other. And i feel like your friend like acknowledging that it’s sort of lays the ground for a deeper connection in that conversation right you can imagine like at released. Decided president rushing to the church to do a list of ministering interviews and for her to just be vulnerable. Foreman’s be like crazy day the i it’s important for me to be present here to to understand what you’re dealing with. Can we just pray for a minute in that. ’cause it before we sort of wanted to present ourselves as as our best selves we think are like i’m here like how are you doing. So that’s where that feeling of fakeness comes in exactly the feeling vagueness we could have a whole podcast series on this because we meanwhile like that feeling of famous it actually is. It’s me compensating for. I’m so overwhelmed. But i still love you and i’m doing my best but like i don’t know how to be more president so many kind of fake it a question. I love to ask like when. I sit down with a student or when i sit down with a big group of people to facilitate disaster like. Is there anything up for anybody’s there. Anything present like an emotion and experience a feeling in the body anything that would prevent you from being more present and you know most of the time not everybody says something but almost every time at least one or two people so i yeah like like you. The example. Give a moment ago like i. You know felt stressed in my marriage. Because i had to leave my wife home with the kids if we can just volunteer that each other like hey. I’m so happy to be here. And i to be truthful on philo a little stress because there’s a situation at home and i don’t want that to like take from our time together and how you know. I just saying that i actually feel more relaxed already like the and settle. You know little shifts like this help really make space for power to come through our interactions and i think that’s what we want.

00:35:08 – 00:40:01

As latter day saints we want every encounter with every human being to be dude with that divine quality and leaders in the church. Have a special calling in that way. I think it’s especially important when leaders have those skills. And you’re going back to that concept of fakeness i mean oftentimes. I’ll hear the judgment with leaders. Like oh my relief society president. She just seems so. Fake to me. Or i don’t feel like people are real at church but to step back in a moment of grace and say wow. Maybe they’re overcompensating for some type of conflict or friction. I wonder how i can engaged to find that and then get passed in. Connect with them totally. Yeah or like maybe. I’m not creating a safe enough space for that. Release society where where they select. That can be more honest. Relax and be themselves. Yes so you see how like these little the when we shift our attention one degree and we ask a new question it allows for a whole new relationship to arise in again moment. Yeah and i appreciate. What i’m learning here is when you talk about mindfulness or stillness. It doesn’t mean a doesn’t always mean quiet right doesn’t mean you need to start every interview saying why don’t we take three minutes and be quiet and then just like awkward for three minutes like ari dunya code with your picture of five year old birthday party. At the pool it can be like fr- presence can be that boisterous and it should be when appropriate and then other times like stillness in the chapel and we’re taking the sacrament but we’re not here to talk about the preciousness of like oh on being mindful speaking with my library voice right now about being fully embodied fully human and really receiving the divine gift of our lives and i have to talk about this concept of an i keep defaulting to the example of an interview scenario but it. It’s something that’s very routine in the life of leader. When because i’ve had these ministering interviews right sit down with a member of the elders. Cormorants dislike the jump in. Like will our your families. And i’m like well bill. They’re good i go in. It’s been thirty singling. I guess we’re done here right. Oftentimes i’ve found that if you can figure out a way to connect spiritually doesn’t have to be connected what you’re talking about displaying moment with the divine this morning of reading the script for can i just read it to you. Can we just ponder this firm and dennis later. Then you get into your howard. The joneses doing again. You’re creating space right. The mindfulness space. Right out for dutiful than i am a good good grasshopper. I’m learning. you’re on a roll out. I’m not see. I’m going through. The transformations of faith have been through the whole course and so a lot of what. I’m reflecting on his. We talk some of these things. These points that you discuss in there which were so helpful was beautiful to hear your learning. Because i have not had the experience being a bishop and to see you applying these principles to a new area in life like. That’s my dream. Like i can only be who i am and have the experience that i have but when leaders like apply these principles its power. Phone away that. I’m just learning from you and so excited that it’s making its way under this new part of the church part of our culture. Yeah i wanna talk about in your course you talk about sort of follow the first principles of the of the gospel right. Faith repentance what are what are they faith. Faith repentance baptism. Goes type thing touch on things. i mean. that wasn’t actually conscience conscious of the time. I got to give credit to adam miller atom motorcycle. Beautiful he’s parlor horse switch and that was that was his i did. He went through the chorus. And he’s like thomas would would he think about boom boom boom. Let’s like really like take the like the major principles of our religion and apply it to those mike which i thought of that. Yes i that was a great contribution from adam. Yeah and so one thing. I want to take him as this concept of repentance and sin because it is such a sticking point in our mortal journey of sin and we all sort of are dissatisfied with the fact that we sin. And we know that okay. Well i’m not perfect. But like every time i do it especially those sins that are made more stigmatized you know the individual who just keeps going back to the pornography or whatever it is. It’s like what is wrong with this and then began so uncomfortable. You just want to fix it. You don’t want to create space. You just want to fix it. So kurt leaders especially bishops. Were so involved in this process of of repentance and try and understand sin and helping people through this work we start there on understanding that concept. This is one of my favorite aspects of the chorus. Then you know. I’ve been interested in meditation contemplation. Things of this nature for over twenty years now and as i have realized how deeply it applies to the gospel. It’s it’s really opened up a new life for me. It’s changed the way. I think about repentance. It’s changed my own relationship.

00:40:01 – 00:45:18

The send mike capacity to be kind to myself and others you know amongst their struggles. So the topic i love and may be one thing i would say to kick it off. Is that when we act out when we do something that’s either harmful to ourselves or others or both. I mean that that might be a good kind of blanket devotion of sin when we do something that’s harmful to ourselves or others where in sinful territory there is. I wanna say. Virtually always some underlying suffering. There’s an experience that i’m having that you’re having we’re having where i i don’t wanna feel this and so i’m gonna do that and this is where your beautiful experience a bishop comes in. You can think of like the the kinds of problems and challenges. You saw coming through your door and like different. People have different coping mechanisms right but to understand that like we all have our coping mechanisms some of them more sinful than others. Some of our coping mechanisms are healthy and adaptive. And they lied to you. Know more healthy life than spirit and others tickets down a different path if we can make space in our relationships to see like this person is suffering and to not rush to fix it behaviorally but actually just be in company. Give companionship to the person who’s suffering to me. I find that’s often the first step in the healing process at least like from my discipline and from my point of view to like actually be with somebody like in the in the very experienced that they don’t wanna feel at all costs when somebody especially leader dignifies a like i. I can just sit with you on this pain all of a sudden the next time they wanna act out. It’s like now. Like i have that experience of kurt sat with me and this pain and actually in this moment i realized i can just be with myself. I don’t have to abandon myself in this pattern. I can just be here. Yeah it that changes everything. Yeah and so. An this of course isn’t meant to be overly tactical or here’s the three staff that but it becomes taxing at times people keep coming to you and they’re just like i keep doing this or this is a problem. It won’t go away. It’s easy to default to like well. Let’s the internet filter. Let’s look at your or retinal. Maybe wake up early exercise or scripture study or let me read you these three scriptures. And this’ll like how do you help. Somebody just approach being present with that person as church leader like where do we even begin with. This is a really good question. I love how you wanna like. Go slow here because it feels really important to me The examples give about the internet filter. Yeah like should somebody with the pornography addiction work with their filter. Probably but working with the filter were already like eight steps removed from like the highest leverage point. Like if i’m fiddling with my filter i mean the chances are like i’m on the back foot and i’m gonna lose battle after battle after battle. I nothing wrong with the filter but to me like my intention and mike starting to bring principles of contemplation. Mindfulness presence to our our relationships in the church to sin to repentance is to go to what i’ve found to be the highest leverage point and the whole process which is human life can be overwhelming human. Life can be overwhelmingly painful when we’re overwhelmed by pain. We do something to cope often. What we do to cope with overwhelming pain leads to sin or his sinful already. So how do. I cultivate the capacity to stay present with my pain and realized that i actually have the divine shoot of presence. Presence is a divine. It is god’s very light is the light with which christ created the universes and when we realized that were made of that light and that we can bring that very light to bear on our deepest suffering. I’d start to develop what i call. Divine confidence psych. No matter what. I’m feeling at any moment i can be present with an. It’s okay and i can act out of agency choice. Fullness as opposed to driven this and compulsion that is the highest leverage point. I know in the hierarchy of sin. And i’ve seen this in my own life and i’ve seen it with many people have worked with that if we can be very present with that part of ourselves that we tell ourselves now. I can’t be present with that. I can’t fill it. I gotta get away gotta fill something else if we can do the opposite and actually be there with it. It heals us. It redeems us and we’re less given to send the next time around. Yeah yeah so it you know talking going back to the individual may come to you and say i’ve i’ve done something terrible and we often respond over going to do something about that ripe and that’s not creating space that’s more reactivity it’s like oh you reacted to your pain and then did something harmful.

00:45:18 – 00:50:07

Let’s react to that reactivity and do something else and we mean well. But what we’re doing is just reacting. It’s just like dominoes all the way up. All the way down forever. How do we like when you take one. Domino out of the stack. It’s like you know it disrupts the fall disrupts the apple and and i’m basically they’re coming saying i’m coping this way and you say we’ll know less cope this way and is your coping. No want the the surrender their. That’s right from like you know my testimony. My experience is that from the standpoint of god’s divine light we are utterly worthy and lovable beings. So there’s nothing to do. Yeah and because there’s nothing to do will now. It can do something it’s a it’s a paradox. We can do something because we don’t have to. We’re not driven to do it. We’re not doing it out of a sense of lack fear. Or i should be better for doing it because we’re free and we’re here to be free. We’re human to be free and we have agency and like when we see somebody act on that agency like truly a free act. That is god and car noted in this world and it’s it’s amazing that’s awesome And i’m just thinking nyc the concept of creating space with an individual whether it’s a bishop’s office or maybe it’s a parent child relationship like it’s so easy to respond with your coping mechanism of this could behavior. And maybe if you just get a good hobby that that bad behavior will go away right. Let’s fill it up but creating space just like stepping back in just saying again coming from the standpoint of there’s a wound there it’s not the behavior it’s the wound that’s there and they are begging someone to say. Will someone recognized that. This really hurts. Will you tell me it hurts you right and so helping them. See how that hurts. Beautiful as right dutiful. Yeah i couldn’t have said it any better. That’s perfect and i love. I’m just noticing kurt. You’re using this word space in a way. I haven’t been in this conversation and it feels really inspired like in a sense it starts simple like first step like make space for whatever it is that we need to make space for. I love it. It just feels right. Yeah and because it really is that space where the saviour then enters the fray. It’s not like we just need empty. Space have empty space. But we need to like. Why don’t we create some space for for these savior to enter. And i feel like we’re talking to like high level. I think people are picking up on. But it’s like you know. Were there for the atonement. But we don’t know like there’s no manual that says right step one you do this step to this and so i was like you have to help create space so then the saver can with whatever step he wants next. Yeah i love the yet. Nah i mean as far as i can tell. The atonement will never be manual is. Yeah there’s a there’s a mystery in it but there are ways that we can make are. There are ways that we can get out of our own way. Yeah and you know to me. The work i do in the community work done on this course. It’s like thousand different ways to get out of your own way. There’s another way to look at it. Yeah any other thoughts around this concept again. I don’t wanna make overly tactical The here’s the steps that tom’s mckie says to help somebody great space with somebody but anything else you’d have this like engaging with people who are experiencing trauma or who are of trapped in their routine of sin any other advice you’d give as far as creating that space and being present in that space with them well. I don’t know if i would say anything new in this meaning. What’s coming up for me is something we touched on earlier but i want to reiterate a new moment maybe in a new way one of the hardest things about being a leader of any sort and i imagined for people who are bishop stick. Presidents and or leaders of any capacity in the church were leaders. You know we could. Let’s let’s put it that way as as leaders and latter-day saints working with people’s difficult. Why because when other people are in pain and having difficulty like like piano strings vibrating. That pain will resonate with our pain. And if. I’m not master of my own domain. If i haven’t already committed to my own experience i can be present with myself the moment i feel anybody’s paying around me it’s going to start to resonate with me and i’m gonna fill overwhelmed feeling overwhelmed. I’m going to try to speed up that piano string. You know three strings over from brought from from vibrating. Because it’s disturbing me so to me like a lot of this. Practice is learning how to deeply connect with ourselves to practice an unconditional time towards ourselves. And then as we do that we see tremendous suffering in the world. You know people we serve in the church and not in the church and they’re suffering doesn’t agitate me. They’re suffering doesn’t overwhelming the in fact like the more they’re suffering the more present i can become so it’s taken care of ourselves.

00:50:07 – 00:55:04

It’s taking really good care of ourselves and acknowledging that we’re affected by their people’s pen and we actually have our own numbing strategies for not doing other people’s pain and one of our favourite numbing strategies for not feeling other people’s pain is to give him a solution. Oh if you did this yeah this worked for me right for you and mike back can be well meaning and sometimes it’s fair inspired but at worst it’s like the it’s like my unconscious processes could talk it saying like your pain is too painful for me right now. I need to do something about your pain to mute it so that i’m not in pain with you right now. Yeah and that’s the deep work we want to do. So they were really truly hewing to. Yeah as let’s talk about that deep work on a more general level as far as we’ve talked about in the context of like somebody sinning and there’s maybe a lot of stigma with that sin and you know the bishops involved. The confession takes place and then he’s be handled other repentance. Process needs be encouraged forward. But what about on like a general ward level because a lot of people are numbing or coping ways than aren’t necessarily stigmatized or or even sinn fault maybe there. They bury themselves in their work because then they don’t have to feel the pain that’s in their marriage at the moment or you know. There’s other ways of coping that way through. How can one help a general audience sort of create space for that stillness so that they can recognize it. Oh that’s that’s not healthy. The relationship i have with my work is not healthy. I’m avoiding other things any any thoughts on that for someone like when we do this work. There’s a difference between repetition and redundancy. The reason i says because like if i think in this conversation up till now maybe we’ve talked about three things but we’ve talked about them one hundred different ways. Yeah and when we’ve talked about a hundred different ways at a certain point. The mind conceal. Like i heard that he said be present like really like. It’s not redundant to point to a thousand more times because the concept is very different than the embodied experience presence right. so that’s my disqualifier as i Or my disclaimer. As i like start to repeat myself again. What to say about the question. You ask like in the wards scenario. If i’m really embodied in other words if i’m really committed to my own experience as it is it’s it’s okay. I’m not as famous as i wished. I was at this age. I’m not as wealthy. I’m not as respected. I’m not as healthy on whatever we all have. The allio have reasons to not be more committed to like. This is what it is but as we really commit to. This is my life as who i am. This is my body. this is my heart my mind. These are the conditions the more committed. I am to the more people around us. Say like man that kirk guy. He seems like seems pretty relaxed and he seems pretty non judgmental and actually. When i’m around. Kurt i feel like i don’t have to put on a show i can just kinda like let hang out a little bit. That’s what i found. We’re not sharing this so practice with words. It’s our quality of being. Yeah that’s what i would say. So as we’re more sensitive to ourselves we start to notice people in the world. Like oh i can. This is an eckhart totally phrase if anyone knows tolis work but the pain body. It’s like when. I’m really sensitive and president. I can fill that person’s pain body more than the other person’s meaning that like they’re carrying pain around with them like a millstone. If i’m sensitive to i can be more present with nick space for it. Be kind to it and do all that without saying a word. Yeah that’s when the best teaching happens when there’s not a word spoken about what i learned from that is it’s not necessarily because i’m sort of i guess maybe unconsciously i’ve sort of looking for the answer like well you should have a fifth sunday less about visa three. I’m dan. i’m not playing this but it’s almost like it’s not about what you go out and say warder what you go out and how you organize the next chili cook off or how you do sacra meeting. But it’s about how you are like how you become as an individual and just going through this this practice yourself and sort of creating space in your own way like you. Naturally you begin to receive race so then you can then reflect that grace on others and just be a better person. That’s going to do more than total than like. Oh well let’s bring thomas into this sunday’s he’s local here. Let’s get him in here. He can come talk to the word. Mindfulness experts your talk about being more mindful. And but that’s sort of our jerk reaction in our traditions like in on it. I’ve touched on other contexts. where the bishop’s he’s a problem. So let’s have a fifth sunday lesson about problem because we’re going to fix the problem but it’s like no no you just you just be totally right. What i’m learning in this conversation with you. Which i’m really enjoying his that like in a sense the gospels about freedom It’s about happiness but it’s it’s also about freedom and a life in the gospel is a life of freedom and when we’re free we’re free to choose.

00:55:05 – 01:00:01

Were free to act. Were free to be totally present in this moment and respond to it with as much love as humanly and divinely. possible princeton repeat. Yeah keep doing that man. He’s good place. Oh in again. Just sort of a summary the repeating things in different ways but again not to get too tactical but one thing. I’ve just found so refreshing my own. Mindfulness practice is. I’ve been so conditioned of you know i say my prayers before i go bed is but it’s like the equivalent of brushing. My teeth is like something i do and it’s like okay. Brush the teeth. And now i fall to my knees and i rattled off some things but but instead to take a moment and maybe if i need a you know some something to drown out the noise another part of the house but just taking a moment just like sitting with god and not addressing each other but just like. I’m just gonna take a moment to be here like engine that that helps me develop as an individual so that i can then go provide or or give more grace other people right totally. I love that. It’s another example of like where we can introduce space in towards the. Yeah and that’s really. I think we’re just like creating that space that presence. That’s what this conversation has been about right. One of many thomas talks about of course transformations of faith. What are we missing any other direction before we wrap up. I mean there’s there’s so much. I have notes from going through the course of the so many directions but as we wrap up any direction or point maybe you wanna make sure we touch on intending to be present right now just noticing like is there anything left unsaid. Is there anything we didn’t cover and one thing is coming up. What came to me is a kind of revelation distant my life. The life of discipleship. Was this awareness. That i was defended against god and that even say that sounds kind of funny. We talk about talk about god or relationship with divine. Mike batt but i realized that actually. I’m defending myself. And in a moment ago you talked about like the prayer. I i love how you said like saying prayers. Sometimes as routine is brushing her teeth in this language. I’d say that’s a way of defending yourself and ways. I defend myself like sometimes. I often let me back up often. I pretend the no more than actually no. And i saw this pattern in my life. It really struck man. It’ll take me a whole life to improve upon it. But i realized like in moments when i’m pretending to no more than actually no. I’m actually defending against a deeper truth. That scares me. It’s like it’s too much divine light. It’s too much truth that it’s the truth burns when we let so much of the truth then so to me like this conversation. We’re having yet another way to talk about. It is can we notice the ways in which we cover up windows with these thick curtains to keep the light out and other subtle ways in which we can let a little bit more life and it it turns out there are. It would be really arrogant and presumptuous to suppose like our tradition is an already full of beautiful ways of pulling the curtains open. Letting more light on. But i also think you know as a latter day saint were encouraged to take part actively in the restoration. And i believe in this day and age we know more about the human body the human psyche the human spirit that has ever been revealed. So we’re learning new ways of letting down our defenses against the divine and living a more godly virtuous life. Yeah so. I think you know the best is yet to come. And some amazing what knowledge we’ve been given in order to transform to transfigure to change at the deepest level. So let me let me make sure. I understand this defending concept of It’s almost like we’re defending against got as far as like we don’t want him fully into who we are else. I want to be in charge of my life. I’m running the show. Not god i’m running. Gajah yeah yeah and whether leadership context. I’m going to be a super awesome. Bishop that does goes above and beyond like there’s a sense of that that that’s that’s great like we need a good bishop or whatever so you know we. We thought maybe overcompensate with some of these righteous behaviors in an attempt that maybe. If i do this. I won’t have to show god or others who i really am. That’s really uncomfortable. Broken wounded totally. Sometimes we defend against god to obedience. Ironically it’s like if i’m if i’m super obedient if i’m perfectly obedient. God’s got nothing on me but when we investigate our motivations for being obedient on actually afraid. Yeah i’m just afraid of not being worthy of not qualifying for blessings. You know. yeah when we take a closer look at ourselves and our motivations that can be really sobering like why we do it we do. Yes you know when in reality.

01:00:01 – 01:05:15

God just wants all of us. He wants one hundred percent he knows who we are and he just wants us to hand that over to just be as we are being busy. You mentioned this a moment ago. Being busy i think is all of our defense mechanism to the divine life of. I’m busy have time to be more god. Labs busy of the later. I’ll do it when i die. You know we don’t want to be. I don’t mind because that’s the devil’s workshop is like delicious. Yeah yeah so anyway. Lots of different perspectives and lots of territory to cover. But but i. I feel the spirit of it. When i when i talked to drill through. It’s been really fun. Enlightening and and again. I thank you for this. This course it really has bust my life. And i’m not i’m not trying to be overly promotional or anything but i sincerely has been awesome. I’ll return to timing. So if people do want more information about transformations of faith were to access it. Engage with it where where we send boots god its own website transformations of faith dot org big shoutout and thank you to. The faith matters foundation. Andy great work that helped produce the course and kind of conceived of the course and You know gave me the opportunity to create. Yeah that was really rewarding partnership with them. Yeah perfect will definitely talk with. At some connections. Faith matters that to see if we can work out a deal for some leaders out there that want to experience this on a deeper level so that was great. Thanks for the leaders who feel called for. I hope fill have ready access to the material. Perfect so final question. I have is just as you. Have you been across the world sort of in this world of of mindfulness and your quest for this around the subject of mindfulness and stillness in presence. And how how is that helped. You become a better follower of jesus christ better disciple of him. I think comes up from now on you ask it is You know if you if you change scenery once you start to learn the ways of a new village newtown a new culture if you change scenery twice you see like these people do even differently than those people did it. But i changed sooner like twenty times from the time i was eighteen or so. The you know my early thirties before i moved back and settled in salt lake city. And i think changing scenery so many times and moving through different cultures different languages different human histories all that. I really sought a lot of diversity. It it keeps the pattern that there’s a there’s a universal yearning underneath at all. There’s the surface expression of the culture. Is what i can see with my eyes and here with my ears. But then there’s like the yearning. I feel in my heart and that he earning i found to be universal and when i recognize that it connected me deeply to you know the teachings i learned when i was five years old i learned all i needed the know like the really good stuff in primary school like people are yearning for the heart of christ. They’re they’re yearning for divine love their yearnings fraternity. And i think after. I you know like toward the world a couple times over. I realized like everything’s different but everything’s the same ones. I was able to tune into that sameness. I was really able to love the diversity of the world. But i saw that concludes my interview with thomas worthy mcconnell. A shout out to him so grateful for his wisdom his perspective his journey that he got on his life that resulted in him bringing so much knowledge to to our faith community again. I can’t stress enough to go checkout transformations of faith dot. You can go to the course. They have like a introduction to the course video you can watch sort of get a feel of it and see the outline the things the type of concepts he. He covers again. That that includes i think five or six different interviews with between him and adam miller and two so just solid. Now if you use the code leading saints twenty five all one word leading saints twenty five to twenty five percent off again. I can’t stress it enough to go. Check it out and and take a for role right like look at these concepts. Consider them ponder over them. And i promised to. Your faith will be expanded and benefit from the perspective and knowledge of thomas. Worse than the cocky and remind you once again to text. The word lead to four seven four seven four seven in order to subscribe to the leading saints weekly newsletter did came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the god of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of jesus christ and when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living church on the face of the earth we were immediately put in a position of loneliness loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor runaway and which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.

Gary Miller hosts the Narrow Gate Podcast, “what happens when a hellfire preaching Independent Fundamental Baptist discovers the Book of Mormon and becomes a Latter-day Saint.” A former preacher/pastor, he served in the military and studied at Liberty Theological Seminary and Graduate School. He works in sales and marketing.

Highlights

5:00 Gary’s pathway to conversion from a Baptist preacher to a Latter-day Saint
8:10 Always interested in hearing things out
14:25 Discovering additional scripture in the Book of Mormon: the Gospel in hi-def 4k
18:25 Facing down and wrestling with the cultural change and his own identity
28:07 God’s pathways can appear impossible
32:00 From the full court press to post-baptism follow up: what does this person bring? Are we truly connecting with the person in the pew?
40:40 How do you bring people together outside of the confines of Sunday morning?
47:00 Connecting to people through ministering
52:30 How do we engage better as ministers? Fight for the feedback
56:15 Finding informal ways to connect and you will eventually be able to have the important conversations that otherwise would not happen
1:01:00 The process of becoming a Baptist minister
1:03:30 What happens when someone takes interest in leading, and how this compares
1:07:00 Paul to the Corinthians: different gifts
1:12:00 A desire to lead is the reason to create opportunities to minister and have an impact
1:15:25 If you feel you don’t have influence, what can you do?
1:19:10 How can we reconcile the discomfort of accepting the grace built into the plan of salvation?
1:21:30 When we are operating in grace, we can start working to become like Jesus, and we can extend that grace to others
1:24:20 How do you lead from the standpoint of grace?
1:28:50 Part of leadership is setting the example, which drives us to get closer to Christ

Links

http://www.narrowgatepodcast.com

Transcript

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00:00:01 – 00:05:02

Welcome back to another episode of the Leading Saints podcast. If you’ve enjoyed content on this podcast, it’s important that I tell you about the Leading Saints newsletter that we send out every week. This newsletter keeps you up to date an all the current Leading Saints content releases including podcasts, articles, online events, and even live events that might be happening in your own area. In this newsletter, we recommend some past episodes and written articles that you don’t want to miss. Each week, we include additional leadership perspectives and thoughts that you can only find in the weekly newsletter, so you definitely don’t want to miss out. To subscribe to the weekly newsletter, simply text the word lead to 474747 or visit leadingsaints.org/subscribe. Again, text the word lead to 474747, or visit leadingsaints.org/subscribe so you don’t miss any future Leading Saints content. Welcome back to the Leading Saints podcast. My name is Kurt Francom; I will be your host and I’m glad that you found us, especially you newbies out there. Maybe somebody sent you this link or you’ve just listened to a few episodes and you’re thinking, “What is this all about?” Well, let me tell you. Leading Saints is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization with a mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead, and we do that through various methods of the podcast where we have fantastic conversations like you’re about to hear. We also have a newsletter that goes out every week that you gotta make sure you’re on that list, and the website. We have virtual summits; we have just all sorts of content online where you can jump in and discover principles related to leadership. So, it’s awesome and we’re glad you found us.

Now, you guys, this episode I have Gary Miller on the podcast. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Gary Miller, but you’re about to be, and you’re gonna love him. He is the host of the Narrow Gate podcasts, and I love the description that he put for his podcast which is, “The Narrow Gate podcasts is what happens when a hellfire preaching Independent Fundamental Baptist discovers the Book of Mormon and becomes a Latter-day Saint.” So yeah, Gary Miller is a former Baptist preacher who stumbled across the Book of Mormon and it captivated him all the way to the point where he was baptized and became a Latter-day Saint. He tells his story in detail on this interview, then we have just a rich conversation. It’s a raw… it’s a real conversation, and that’s where Gary comes alive. I think you’ll realize that pretty quick here and i just…this is how he wanted to approach the interview and I hope you find value in it, but I see Gary as someone who obviously has leadership experience in a former, in a different church. He’s preached; he’s run an organization, a church organization, and I’m just curious like… “What is a guy like that see when he walks into our church community, right? What does he like? What things have confused him? What suggestions would he have?” And now, some of you may listen to this and be like…”Gary just doesn’t have much time in the church; he just doesn’t understand,” but I think this is a good example of how we can be more self-aware, like, I always talk about self-awareness as one of the strongest leadership principles an individual can have where you just step back and hear someone else’s perspective, even if you disagree with it. You begin to learn some things that maybe you weren’t aware of; you become more self-aware and you can be…you can approach your leadership or your life in a more productive state of mind, a more productive mindset. Ok, so that’s what I wanted to do with Gary. We had a great conversation of just saying, “What do you see? What’s been weird? Anything we could improve, or what’s been your experience?” and the conversation that falls is phenomenal. You’re gonna love it. Let’s get into it, enough of me summarizing what you’re about to hear. Here’s my interview with Gary Miller. The host of the Narrow Gate podcast.

KF: Today, I have the opportunity to sit down with Gary Miller. How are you, Gary?

GM: I’m doing great.

KF: That’s awesome, that’s awesome. Now, you are a fellow podcaster? Is that right?

GM: I am. We are brothers in the podcast arms.

KF: And… it’s you know, it’s not for the faint of heart that’s for sure.

GM: It is not, and the moment you step behind a mic and decide to start saying something. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not for the faint of heart for sure.

KF: Nice well, I’ve actually, you know… leading up this interview, several people reached out to me and said, “Hey, have you heard of this Gary Miller guy? He’s got a podcast; you should probably interview him because he’s got a unique story.” So, for this Latter-day Saint audience, how would you introduce your story, and maybe talk to us about it.

GM: Yeah, so well first of all, thanks for having me on the show. I’m a fan and so it’s always good I think what’s interesting about the digital world and podcasting, when you you’re a listener and you’re also a content creator, and then when those worlds merge and you get to meet the people you listen to, it’s kind of cool so, but anyway. Yeah, my story is kind of an interesting one.

00:05:02 – 00:10:00
GM: I came to the church from definitely a sort of non-traditional pathway. I was a preacher pastor of an Independent Fundamental Baptist church and I started that church in San Antonio with fifteen folding chairs that we ordered off of ebay, in a living room. And it went from the living room to a hotel meeting room when we needed more space, and then it kinda moved from that generic one to the bigger Holiday Inn meeting room, and then it just kinda grew from there right. And so, when I…on paper…I’m not supposed to be here. I say this all the time on my show, like I’m the last guy on the card that should have been like a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It just doesn’t make sense.

KF: Yeah.

GM: And so, but you know God’s plans are so much better than ours right, so and I was, this was about two years ago now…it’s amazing my wife and I were trying to figure out the timeline, to get it a little tighter, but I work in sales and marketing in my regular life, and at the time, pre-Corona, I was making sales calls. And in Houston, Kurt, there’s no nice way to drive across Houston, cause it’s like, takes you forever. You wanna test your grace…drive in Houston traffic, right. You…you need a reason to repent, go drive; you’ll get one. So, I…

KF: Nice.

GM: I would go on these long sales drives and so I would listen to podcasts, right, like you and I, we do.

KF: Yep.

GM: Podcasters tend to be big podcast consumers, right, so I was listening to stuff, and for whatever reason, and I would say off course, it’s providential, but for whatever reason, iTunes in the podcast store, they’ll give you recommended things based on what you’ve listened to before. Well, for whatever reason, one of the recommends, Kurt, was the Book of Mormon on audio. Somebody had uploaded it into the iTunes store. Now, I’m not talking about using the regular Church app; this was just the audio.

KF: So, was it like some random guys voice reading it or was it a Church-hired person?

GM: I don’t know if it was…I mean it was properly produced….

KF: So, it sounded great.

GM: …but I don’t know if it was Church-sanctioned or not, it sounded great. So, I decide…I’m coming out of a Kroger because I needed to get a snack for the road, because you don’t go into sales calls hangry, you know, that’s a bad move.

KF: Right.

GM: So, I… I get my snack. I decide, and I don’t…and again, I thought like maybe lightning was going to strike me or something for me listening, but I hit play and so I’m driving down the road for the first time listening to stuff about witnesses, plates, Nephi, Zarahemla…I’m going, “What in the world is happening?” But I just kept listening and…

KF: So, let me, let me interject and ask, like, at this point, like, “What was the Book of Mormon in your mind like?” ’Cause a lotta times, I hear people saying, “Oh, I just knew it was this evil book.” Like I…I know some people say, “ I…I didn’t wanna get close to it because it was evil.”

GM: Yeah.

KF: Like from your Baptist background, what was that book to you, at that time?

GM: That’s a great question. So, I obviously knew about the Church in the sense that a good portion of the…I mean, if you get any good Independent Fundamental Baptist in a, in a room, and you list certain names, if you said Latter-Day Saint, that would get them hot quick.

KF: Yeah, right.

GM: I mean, it’s not…it’s not benign hot; it’s red hot! I mean it would…

KF: Right.

GM: You know, so that’s…that’s you know. So, I knew it from that perspective hearing some of my fellow preachers, if they decided to preach on that ever, but I, I came in surprisingly neutral. For my background, Kurt, I probably was more neutral than to be expected, but I’ve always been kind of an enigma in that regard. I’m a real hard preacher. I’m a scripturalist, like I’m, I’m a letter of the law in that way, but I also tend to… I sat under a lot of great teachers from outside of my own faith background when I was coming up in seminary and everything else, so, it provided me a different degree of width and my scope when I would, you know how open I was to something at least to hear it out. You know I; I go back to those classic sorts of admonitions in scripture. Search scripture daily; find out if these things are so. I wanted to find out if it was, you know, when the Proverbs tell us that “If we answer a matter before we’ve heard the whole thing out, it’s a folly and shame unto us.” So, I don’t want it to be a folly and shame on me. I wanted to say, “Okay, I want to hear the thing out.” And so, to me, it was this text that was clearly important to a group of people that I didn’t understand other than what I had heard, and I knew that…listen, even as a good Fundamental preacher myself, I know we can be a little heavy handed at times. So, I thought let me hear it from the source and for whatever reason…

KF: Awesome!

GM: …yeah, that’s how it started.

KF: Nice, and so, was it a, a moment where you’re listening to this where you’re pricked by the spirit, or were you’re just sort of intrigued by the book enough to keep listening?

GM: I was intrigued. I, you know, you and I’ve talked a little bit. I…I didn’t when I was driving around listening to the audio, I did not pass any burning bushes, the skies did not part. You know, it was none of that. I mean it was, I found it very interesting and then from that…because I’m a, you know, I’m a highlighter, marker-studier guy, and I mean, I’ve been studying teaching the bible for you know, at this point when I first started listening to it, well over a decade, and in ministry, and so I…I went on ebay and ordered a copy. I needed a big copy that would flop, so I wanted like a big leather bound something I could open up and really tear into.

KF: Oh, really.

GM: So, I…

00:10:00 – 00:15:02

mormon dot org or whatever and. I didn’t go into any of that yet. Yeah no i wanted to. I wanted a proper one. I’m like look if i’m gonna pay attention to it. And i’m a big fan of this an pete when i teach this about studying scripture general but i wanted something i could touch and feel and really interact with so i get this wonderful copy. Whoever the saint was it had it before me they had written these great notes senate and oh wow get very personal. Had their name in boston on the front and everything and so i. I don’t know what happened to them. I need to go preach to them right. But i i got i got a. I got this thing. And i started from the top and read all the way through went back started over and i just kept going through it over and over and over and over again and at this point my wife who’s preached wife. I mean she you know she’s always in the front row when i’m shopping. Yeah so at this time. You’re on sundays. You’re going to church preaching and you’re baptist preacher right and so i you can’t i mean it wasn’t like a random book that i was studying like a commentary or something. It’s kind of hard to ignore that. It says book of mormon on the outside and so but we started having this conversations and it was through that and through just reading it and then that started reading it around my kids. I said oh this is really interesting. Let me tell you something here. And i would start reading in my very energetic. My youngest daughter. Miriam if anything can slow her down. You got to pay attention to that. So i’ll be reading it and she would come over at. She would sit next to me and she’d lean her head right against my chest and just sit there and listen to me read and i thought what in the world is going on and then i from that point another podcast had come up sherri do had interviewed a bunch leaders in the church and the first exposure to a church leader. I hear elder bednarz get to start and so yeah. I hear him talking while i’m driving around and i remember calling my wife. I’ll never forget it. And i said i’m on the road sitting in traffic in houston and i said darlan. I’m listening to this guy. I know i’ve been reading the book. More notes weird. Don’t get freaked out. But i’m listening to them. I’m telling you. There is something going on over here. And i and my my phrase i always used to say there’s something in the water over here. I’m like there’s something in the water. they’re drinking. I don’t know what’s going on but there’s something we’re talking about the same things but there’s something different behind it and i just kept x. Our church while. I think some people would think out. Release a bit stiff. I think we’re very technology forward. Our apps are great audiovisuals crate. I mean and so i was porn through that stuff listening to those things and then i finally kurt. That’s when i finally did go onto come unto christ and i talked to two missionaries online in checks. I wasn’t gonna talk to anybody in person yet. I couldn’t like i’d get like well. How am i supposed to do that right. I did it online. We had those first conversations. They were so sweet. I mean you know. I can’t imagine what it was like. Two sister missionaries in handle and chat threads. And i started off by saying look i’m an independent fundamental baptist. But i have some questions i promise. I’m going to be nice. Like i’m not here to start a fight. And they were so sweet and they ultimately you know they were the ones that got us into our first church meeting in person and they were. They were to super quiet like the complete opposite of me. I’m ten pots of coffee. Amped up right and i know for those of you. That don’t drink coffee. Don’t get nervous. I don’t drink but the point is the thing is that they were so the opposite. I mean they were like you would just talk to them and like your blood pressure drops. They were so chill. The everything that i’m asking these aren’t lightweight question to ask you and they’re just working through it or through it but boy i’ll tell you when it was time for them in the bible says compelled them to come. I remember that little sister missionary. She said to me well. You know what church there at. The word is happening at this time. You’re going to be there right alright. So wouldn’t like a baptist. I like this. So and then. I showed up at my first meeting and everything kind of happened from there. Wow wow and that so. I’ve just i’ve just going back to that experience with the book immoral because you know being someone who was born and raised in the church. I mean maybe your experience like this with the bible. i can’t. i don’t have a moment where i’d like sought as new scripture started out like all. My parents want me to read this. My dad’s reading it right. So it’s such an intriguing perspective to have to discover additional scripture and then have the opportunity to pour over it with the adult intellect in and the same desire for truth that you had so i bet that was just a remarkable experience. It was in. It is every day that i read it. I mean you. And i talked before. I mean if you if somebody walked in here and said you can’t read it every day i would twitch and i think i think a lot of folks to your point. It was the same way where i came from if people have had this kind of in their lap around their shelf all their lives know. Familiarity breeds either apathy and sometimes even breeds contempt right and then people forget what they’re holding onto and so. I always have said that between the book of mormon and the bible. What i’m really looking at is now. I’m seeing the gospel sort of in four k. It’s like in high def now before you’re kind of you’ve got it all it’s all there. I mean the sixty six books of books of king james bob.

00:15:02 – 00:20:03

I’m ready to go love it. You can get saved from it. You’re good but the point is now. I’ve got this other piece and it’s like somebody literally like putting the whole thing like four k three d. high. Def whatever you wanna call it and now you’re seeing this in a whole new way and so as someone from the outside who’s now read it more times than i can tell you. It’s just a part of our daily study here. Part of what i do for my show but it really is something that yet for me. It was both exciting. Every time i do and still now every time. It’s hard for me to go through it. Still not mark something up not highlight something up and just because there’s so much there it’s such impressive book. So you’re you’re going through this. You’re talking to the sweet sister missionaries. What’s happening from the baptist minister perspective. I mean at some point. You realize you’re in deep and you can’t just pretend you’re not like this double life to some extent right. oh absolutely it was cloak-and-dagger for awhile felt like i was like bourne identity spy or something right there were moments. There were moments to be completely frank. I would try to put the. I’m looking across the way here. Outside of my home office. I can see why you put it. I would try to take it and put it on the the book of mormon on top of the top shelf bookshelf. And say okay. Like i’d come to my senses for a minute. Or so. I thought i’d be like a garrett. Stop okay enough or put it up on the shelf. And that’d make some grand declaration to my wife. I’d be like are you all right. That was fine. We were just you know. We’re good and just face to face just past exactly and so about sixty minutes to a couple hours in the holy ghost. Just wear me out. And i’m just like got pulled back all right. Everybody sit on tape. We’re gonna read. We’re gonna reach and i just i couldn’t put it away but yeah it was very strange because i was already feeling some some heat because i’d messed around and slipped up right like i. I would see some great talk. That i’d watched you know from something online and i would share it on my social media and then i remember getting my i d m from somebody that i had actually trained in the ministry. And they’re like that was a that was a latter day saints site you just shared like. Yeah the message was great. Did you listen to the message. I just saw that. it was l. dot. Whatever i’m like dude. Listen to the message but yeah it was. It was hard you did feel divided. Forget about what everybody else was thinking. I mean personally. I’m going. I’ve invested all this time. Energy study started with the fifteen folding chairs. And now i’m playing in something that means i’m going to have to change that dramatically and that’s weird because that was inherently part of my identity. Because i’ve been in it for so many years. Yeah so let me understand. And i don’t fully understand how this works Bit naive here but would being a baptist. Preacher like our that. Is that an income source. Because you’re doing sales and marketing as well or or is it just a volunteer thing like it is for us or how did that work now i. I was always a bi vocational pastor. Which is quite common in the independent fundamental baptist world. So i had a day job. The whole time i was preaching did did at times the church was able to did they support to a certain degree as they could sure. But i mean. I wasn’t like i wasn’t paying my mortgage on it. It was it was clearly something that that would that had a supportive element to it but we were so in that regard. I’ve tried to explain this to folks that you know it’s not all that different you know we. We started and we’re still working the job the whole time. We just happened. Just happened to prep sermons at night. And then go you know. Stand up thump on wednesdays and sundays. Yeah yeah so. This wasn’t a question of if we make a change. Your i’m gonna lose my my income source but no it wasn’t it wasn’t income. I mean there certainly was some of that there but this was more about good night. I mean this. This is like a major change of jerseys here. So there’s say culturally. There was going to be a lot more because this is not a move. That happens like i mean. Southern baptists are much more vanilla regular much more vanilla independent fundamental baptist. Making this kind of jump. Just like and of course as soon as i did and it was clear i mean it was you could count half a drumbeat and it was heretic. Lasted me going to hell the whole night. I mean i yeah. It was so so. Was there a moment where you you’re coming out moment where you know you let everybody know that this is happening. I did not have a definitive stand up and put a book of mormon on the podium and say this is where we’re going it was really. It was kind of organic. It kind of happened over time. And i think people understood and i kind of phased myself out of what i was doing and and because i thought that was the right thing to do i mean. This was my journey. I think. Everybody’s on their own journey. And look i mean. People are listening. To what i was saying and i didn’t want to. I didn’t want to influence people in a way that was not fair. You know i was going through my thing. You’re going through. You’re saying. I’m happy to share it but i didn’t want that to be out of context and so i step back.

00:20:03 – 00:25:01

I was out of that. And then you know then it was still study and everything else. I mean. Look our first baptism date. I call didn’t do it. I was like no. I thought at that point is when i thought i’d lost my mind because i thought we’d gotten all the way up. We had it scheduled lamberson in that email to the missionaries. I’m like hard powwows. Like maybe i’ve had an out of body experience and i totally messed up my whole life so pause let me go rethink this again as i wrestled with for short. And were you working with these online sister missionaries the whole time or did these were these were to now that had become that relocated to our ward. Yeah so and they were super sweet and forever grateful for him and they were very patient and and they understood. I mean there were some of the only ones. Ironically that actually me about my experience and asked me what that meant and what. I was wrestling with their because nobody else did. It was so weird to me like this is something you should probably ask about. And so but they did. He’s talking about your when you call called off the baptism they really asked me to be open and ask about what you’re going through. That was referring. Yeah that’s exactly it. I mean it wasn’t archer getting baptized her. Are you having this. Is the devil like yeah. You know it was none of that. I remember like what’s in. It was even prefaced. It’s interesting. I have found that some of the most sort of emotionally intelligent people have encountered happened to be missionaries. I think as they talk to people a lot and they could pick up even as young as they are and didn’t have any of the experience that i did but they kind of got it and i remember them to sort of like you know if you’re comfortable talking about it and no this has got to be hard for you so like what’s going on if you want to hear and i would text them sometimes at night right and i’d be finishing evening studying. I’d be like you know this is. I’m looking at this from looking at that. And they were very very patient and understood that this wasn’t a straight line. I know a lot of people would love all these things to be straight. They’re not straight lines. Conversion is messy and nuanced. And so i had to kind of navigate those waters and it wasn’t just me i had a. I had a wife that had been on this thing with me for all these years and my kids and so i mean it was a lot to it and just you know okay great. The book of mormons awesome. Let’s go and more death so when you call that first baptism that i mean your whole family were was going to be baptized that day. Or is it just so so me and my wife. yeah okay. we’re going to be so then. What happened after that. To the point where you did actually go through with it you know. I had multiple meetings with them. And i remembered i was sitting on a park. In the kids are playing and crystalline are talking. And i said you know if if we’re just trying to come at this thing head on just the law doctrinal. I’m like i just. I still can’t get there like there’s too much it’s too different right and i think that’s important understand. I said but if we’re talking about the whole picture framework that incorporates family incorporates you know community incorporates prayer incorporates scripture. If we’re looking at a thing that’s going to kind of be a framework that we can work in for. It’s not just along with our scripture but it impacts the rest of our lives. I’m like this is the only framework that makes sense and we and so we kind of made this analogy. It’s kind of like the power strip that you plug a bunch of inputs into you know and so this thing was gonna the church to us represented kind of this power strip know. Our marriage is plugged into this. Our family’s plugged into this. Our our businesses plugged into this. All the stuff is plugged into this any and it’s a framework that can support that load of all the things that come there and that’s what ultimately was like okay. This combination of things makes sense to us. This is a framework and weaken. We could say yes and so. Yeah so so i mean the the model of the church and the gospel and everything made sense but then the type of thing we get hung up on some doctrinal points would sort of confusion. You sort of need to breathe a little bit. That’s that’s a really good question. I think part of it was my own identity in this. Because i’m like i’m going to go from. I’m preaching and teaching to sit on a pew. Nobody knows your name. And i was really concerned and i i sometimes still concern but i have a podcast now that i get to do it all the time. But i’m like yeah. I’ve got a lot to say lot of study a lot of experience. I wanna help people with this. So i worried about. Are we going to have an impact in that matters to me and and it really don’t matter to crystal might my wife as well and so there was part of that from a pure doctrinal issue. It’s kind of interesting. I didn’t run up against anything. That back where i came from. We talked about doctrinal issues that were state borders and national borders case. So you never go to war on a state border issue like there’s all kinds of things we can disagree on right and it’s okay. You’re pretrial on post trip. Whatever it doesn’t matter we’re not going to go to war of that. There are some national issues that you’re ready to throw down on dr leander just fundamentals right. But i didn’t have any national issues as it were that i was. I sometimes was concerned about language. That i would hear people say but i don’t think they were saying it maliciously i.

00:25:01 – 00:30:01

I think they were saying. Because they just weren’t studied they had been around but they weren’t. They didn’t really understand. So i didn’t. It wasn’t a doctrinal thing that threw me. It was more like. How do we fit into this. Do can we guided. This is even gonna make sense from because we got to sit here and we’re going to talk to these folks and and we didn’t know how that was going to be. You know what i mean. That’s what it is now. I love how you touch on the concept of identity. Because that’s really where. I can see how that would throw you because in my life right now i identify in so many ways. And you know the fact that i have in you know in the past been a bishop and in a stake presidency like that gives me some level identity where i feel like i have i sort of know the boundaries. I have in this community like i feel comfortable raising my hand in a sunday school class in stating something and everybody in in the room knows well. He’s a former bishop so he can’t be too much off his rocker. So okay i see what he’s saying right where you’re coming in as i’m like in your just i’m gary aunt and here i am again where you had you had so much identity. That sort of That you’re able to. I mean it was like just a warm blanket and these other news right. Like i feel like i i have a place here and now i don’t and that’s scary. It really is perfectly said. I mean i. I i think we sort of felt and maybe sometimes still will join the church at the wrong time i mean we came up out of baptism a week later lockdown so we we spent more time. I was just telling this to one of our friends in church over over his snapchat or something. I said we went. We were in the church building. Moore’s investigators than we have been as members because we went we visited and we’re in the church for what six months seven months before we finally got in if you will and so then we got locked down and so we still kind of to some degree and i think probably a lot of people in this pandemic. you sort of feel like no matt’s you’re like well we’re kind of there were kind of not. I don’t know what’s going on. And so i’m yeah. Identity was a big thing. I mean you know look where we came from. And you’ve been doing that for so long. You know the lingo the culture. You know the the ‘isms and here we got it because we were. I mean we spent a lot of time studying. We spent a lot of time asking questions. And but still your. It’s clear you know a lot of the time you know. There’s there’s there’s guys like you with all this experience and have been around it which is awesome and there’s guys like me who are from the outside right so i’m always i’m always battling in my own teaching and whatever we do. I’m really not interested in an us versus them conversation. But it’s hard not to have that sometimes when you’re coming from the outside yeah ’cause if you’re in my word i could. I could say every week every day. You gary don’t worry like i know i’ve been a bishop and i’ve been in the church my life but hey you’re part of like no matter. How many times you say that it does not get an magically say. Okay i until i mean it’s a process and it’s messy and so i want to get in touch on a few topics i want to jump into but anything else as far as your story. Semaine highlights are mile markers that would be important to to say before we launch into. Yeah you know. I i would just say that my story is i. Think what it demonstrates. I’ve always been a searcher right when i first someone. I presented a bible to me. And i started reach reading it. I was. I was reaching and searching for this person of jesus that i was hearing about and so my journey has been about that. The ironic super ironic thing that. What was right before me. Discovering that podcast. Kurt was actually. And i think this is what charged up the algorithm to lead me to that book of mormon conversation. This is my theory probably wrong. Who knows but. I had somebody that had me. Listen to an audio and it was actually from a jehovah’s witness because they were talking about the trinity and so i listened to it because i’m always happens if someone said i want your opinion on this deal but god can use all kinds of pathways that otherwise we would look out on paper and go. That doesn’t make sense by definition. This conversation started with a guy doing a video that was a jehovah’s witness cry and and so which led to the independent fundamental baptist. Listening to a talk which hit play on a book of mormon which play on sherri do which it play on elder bedar an ebay in a book of mormon and online missionaries and. I mean what’s but all this thing ended in where we are now. And i mean i spend my time when i’m not working thumping on a podcast. Mike telling people about a precious. This book of mormon is a precious. The bible is how to work this stuff into our faith. And so i mean. It’s just a journey where god can use all kinds of elements to bring about toss. Yeah right and and i’ve met with many friends who are baptist or evangelical whatever and they have such a deep burning of christ in their heart and i’m just like you know sure if you’re asking me if if i would love you were baptized.

00:30:01 – 00:35:06

A latter day. Saint yeah would be but man. God bless ya you know like. You’re you’re finding your finding christ in that journey in. Its whom i say will your journey is not over yet. Or you know it’s like i hope it’s not but let’s just rejoice in christ you know i love that you say that some of the weirdest things i heard early on was when folks would kind of talk to us like well the meta communication was. Hey you were lost before. But you’ve found it now and i’m like I’m not quite sure about that. So i get what you’re saying. Yes all right. So i want to. I want to launch into to an adult conversation here. You’re we’re both mature adults. We both at facts as they are and We’re not making any indictment of certain faith points in our tradition or the baptist tradition. But here’s what intrigued me so much about. What about talking with you having this conversation. Is that at this point you are. You’re a newly baptized member of the church for know all no definitions or purposes or whatever and and also you you bring with you a certain perspective with that. I don’t have with my decades in the church being raised in it. And you know hearing all the vernacular and everything from a young age and also your experience as a leader is a is a pastor preacher in the baptist church you there’s some leadership principles and things you’re bringing into and so you’re at this point where you’ve probably seen things obviously the world’s upside down but coming in just as you investigate the church. You probably saw some things that we do as a church in thought. That’s really cool. Like i hadn’t even thought of that and you know i’ll churches should do that and then i’m sure there’s other things where he thought okay. You people are crazy like why do you do that. And as doesn’t matter how many times people there’s this handbook and this and that and then this doctor and yet i still get a man like why. Why are you doing that right. And so i just want to see you as like a hired consultant coming into our church saying okay. You have a little understanding of our church now. Now help us understand what we’re missing by being too close to it so tell me like being a leader a baptist leader coming into a latter day saint culture. Like what comes to mind when you’re just looking at us as a leadership organization as a as a church and so forth. Is that the help. Yeah i think so. Let me take the first swing at that. We might foul off. These first couple pitches. Get one always for those listed against the editor. Good so as an outsider. Looking at if you’re asking me from just a perspective of looking at how it’s led and how that feels with a new person coming in. Here’s what i would say in a general sense when we were investigating which is found that phrase interesting but when when we were investigating. What would you call somebody. Investing in the baptist. What’s what would you say how to say someone was visiting the visit. I mean is he this type stuff i want to get. I mean and so when we were doing that it was full court press. I mean it was you or for for for them for them so so so they will tell us they were. They were our. You’d get text messages. You get calls. There were cookies at the door. There was they came by a member last christmas. And we’re caroline at the front door. They i mean it was it was it was really and i would say all wonderful things. Great connection not heavy theology. Because that you know the and i think some of them were nervous to talk about that stuff so they kind of kept which is fine. But but i think that it was. There was a real warmth than a real connection and it was like i remember crystalline. I often going again. There’s something in the water. This is amazing. Like everybody’s so like this is cool and only if you know in the beginning that that a wonderful thing as we got closer. It kind of started feeling. I walked out of church one day. And i thought i remember saying to crystal on the drive home. I thought well. If it’s i know that they mean being this nice really do but it’s so sort of glossy that it concerns me because it i’m looking for some edges or like some you know like it’s just you write a little bit worried about that but when we came we we get baptized and we come up that full court press kind of dramatically changes and not that the world should center around the millers ship. Right i get it. But there’s a real dramatic difference right so there’s kind of like we’ve got you on the lot with gotcha full court. Press to make the deal with closed the sale. But then where’s the follow up right. And where i come from its discipleship. It’s the it’s that connection post you know. Someone’s in and so that’s where it felt like. There was a real disconnect now in fairness we did this in the middle of the pandemic right so there wasn’t a manual on that. But and i know we love manuals but i i think that it’s so that impacted it no one really knew what to do with that so it was easy for for folks to kind of get lost in the cracks.

00:35:06 – 00:40:01

But you know for my thing and i think from a leadership perspective i think about if we’re going to pay attention to this stuff on the front end learning about a family learning about where they’re coming from in that kind of stuff. There’s a lot of nuance again. That impacts conversion. I wasn’t conversion to getting to know. Jesus we knew jesus this was switching. The framework was again changing. Jerseys if you will and so if all those things are at play where we were where we came from all that stuff. I think that needs to be paid attention to my biggest word of encouragement for leaders would be like once that person’s in now. The answer isn’t to apply the checklist on what we do with every new member. Now each member comes. New member comes with their own set of things that led them their gifts. Talents potential struggle ability environment. All those things we need to be looking at that in the post you know. Baptism world post. They’re in now. Because those are going to be the buttons and the connection points to really i think create genuine fellowship discipleship and connection and so that would be the the one general observation from our point that we saw. I hope that makes sense. Yeah so it sounds like you know. Just the after joke like if sometimes our church can feel like walmart started a church and we’re just a very large bureaucracy with manuals and training manuals in this thing. And oh that checklist do this when that happens right and so when a new member comes in. It’s like okay. Well you need the new member discussions. I don’t think we do that anymore. But you need you need to go to this class at this and then and sometimes it’s like i just want to be me and sort of just have maybe explore for miniature i i i don’t know like maybe just somehow see people as an individual coming into the church rather than okay we need to. We need to orient. This new member. Doubt these things is that makes a lot of sense. I was just having a conversation. I’ve got a good friend of mine. Pastor still in san antonio and i told him i said one of the things that you guys have figured out his nondenominational evangelical. I said you know what you guys have. Figured out in. Discipleship is brilliant. Because you’re are. People are not unclear that your arms are wide open. But that wants someone then. They spend a lot of time kind of nurturing relationships and kind of connecting. And i don’t mean to sound to spongy here but connecting heart to heart and personally with people over a period of time and yes of course. There’s gospel teaching around that. And yes there’s there’s hey here the fundamentals of the faith but that’s often done in a way where whether that’s the formal church service or sunday school or so meetings in the middle of the week where people are having pizza and having a lesson someone’s living room or whatever the case they’ve done a really really good job of not restricting this just to what happens on sunday morning and certainly not restricting it early on to you know all right here are the here. Are the seven steps that you’ve you know the boxes you have to check off to kind of be in the culture and i don’t want to be confusing here. I’m not interested in changing the rules of the game. I am interested in and how we kind of look at. what are we doing. Not just with converts. I would say you know. What do we do with all members about. How are we really connecting with them. And that i understand connection can be kinda nebulous but how are we linked up to them beyond just the lists or the calling or the the tasks i have no doubt we are very effective at the rudiments of religion. I sometimes get concerned that we are ineffective in truly connecting with the people in the pew that messages. So it sounds like you know from your experience coming in like we have certain administrative processes that are meant to create connection and community possibly. But they’re so administrative that you can’t get past the administration happening in order to even reach the connection. Is that a good way to say. It is and i want to be very clear so that you know. I don’t get emails later. Neither do you. I listen i understand. Administrative is both important and practical. God’s not an author of confusion we gotta have you know our house. Orderly got it. I get it check but the the issue here is that i think anything administratively. It’s what’s behind it. It’s i think everything we should be doing. Should be leading us to jesus and helping us deliver more like him and so we got the great models in the scripture. We know that we got a living prophet. You help us guide us. This is not complicated. But i think sometimes we can get too wrapped up and this doesn’t just happen with us. I mean you know what happened to where i came from. You know. we’re so wrapped up in the in. The sort of this is what we do as part of our niche. But we’re missing the people that are doing it. And so i think that’s a real because everybody’s bringing something different to this table everybody’s gonna run this race their own pace right and so i’m always thinking when i’m teaching it myself and when i’m talking to people i’m thinking about how do we get to really understand them.

00:40:01 – 00:45:00

Not because we’re trying to change everything to please everybody. That doesn’t certainly work. But it’s a lot easier to usher in procedure or administrative. Or by the way usher in the hey. This is what we do here. This is part of wearing this jersey. It’s a lot easier to usher that in when i’ve connected some way with you before we get to that otherwise you can. You can lose folks. And i think that’s real. Yeah so i’m just curious. Like from your baptists experience not that they had it figured out or anything not but is there anything that was easier to do in that context than in the latter day saint context as far as this you know creating the connection or leader to do in that context my senses we were certainly a lot freer to let it rip so we didn’t have we didn’t have to have four meetings and get approval about. Hey we’re going to get together with everybody on wednesday night and we’re gonna you know. Invite everybody over to brother house and we’re going to do a lesson for the month of march out of the book back so you know. I think there was a lot more freedom to and and i’m not suggesting that we don’t have that freedom here i just know from administrative point and how it was structured. We didn’t have to kind of step so gently perhaps and so and truth be told. I mean we’ve had a history of that you know. Independent bible studies scripture studies in a home as sort of frowned upon. Because you know what what are you. What’s really going on there. But were now elder cook. He presented the new to our planning. Really they’ve come for me. They really encourage that. You know. so sort of new delhi. Yeah right and so. I think the difference is we would and i love that and we’re we read it every night as a family but my i think the issue is how do you bring people together outside of the normal confines of sunday school sunday morning. And i think that’s what was different for us. We we had a certain fluency and that it wasn’t an we didn’t have a manual for that. this was just. This is what you did. Like if i didn’t know personally what was going on with everybody and was connected with them and talking to them. Even outside of of the other staff like the regular church things than i was missing dramatically as a leader. Like what in the world are you doing. You know. Because if i don’t if i don’t have a sense of that and i you know i i used to tell folks all the time i mean if you don’t know the names of the kids and the dog and the cat and these other things but you’re interested in rippin face about how. They’re living what they need to go. Do you go do this this this. I’m like well what’s the name of the what’s the name of the third son. I don’t know well ratchet back brother. We got to come back to basics here and so for me again. I want to be careful here. I’m not suggesting that you throw caution to the wind. But i am. I am suggesting that and because we are so sort of home centric now especially in the pandemic for crying out. It doesn’t seem like it would be hard. I mean i have struggled during this pandemic. i’m like wire. My nondenominational protestant friends still doing meetings. Zooming it out. Bible studies on facebook like crazy. And we’ve had you know. I can count on half a hand. How many older score meetings we figured out how to do on zoom. That doesn’t make sense to me. And we need to be both leveraging technology and putting this at the front because even if it is via zoom that’s better and would be better than the void right. There’s nothing going on. And i get that it’s easy to silo. Get in in in a pandemic. It’s easy to kind of get in our own worlds. But i get that but also think it’s inexcusable. It’s not the gospel. It’s not what we read in scripture in just being. You know trying to be more village at doing being proactive. Doing those types of community focused things. Yeah i mean if i i’ve been preaching a series in the book of accent. I’m like everywhere. You see it eating together praying together singing together worshipping together together together together together together right and in everywhere it’s everywhere right but here we are got my quiet in my study and my family and here i got the jersey on and i’m like this do what what are you doing. And it seems like when. I’m learning from this from your perspective. Is you sort of feel like there’s some level of act of congress that has to take place in order for a an official sanctioned church meeting to happen and so therefore that resists enough for people to say well. I’ll just wait till the elders court does something. And i think that is and it may be unfair. It may not be that. I mean look i could call. I could call up ten people right. Now let’s do a zoom. I’m not breaking the law by having zoom and talking about the bible or the book of mormon. But i think it’s just about us getting in that posture. I sometimes i was just talking to a good friend about this. I’m like we all seem to be looking at the other guy and looking at each other going. We’re waiting on something somebody to give the green light. Green light was given when jesus said go forth and preach the gospel already got green light like we so we should be already. We don’t need to wait around. None of this is is controversial. Redoing some french thing this. This is just about us going from a leadership perspective. It’s like hey. I mean even just man hop open a facetime. Call somebody up.

00:45:01 – 00:50:01

You know. I mean these are little things in much easier again obviously to sit from the cheap seats and go mark guys doing this right but i think from my perspective and i think for all of us not just for converts conver- conversation. This is everybody that you know. We sorta go wait a minute. We have opportunities to connect and it. Also by the way i remember. You’ll love the story. I i remember sitting down with a guy that i was mentoring pastor in san antonio and i would come in every time we’d meet our audience can’t see this but i’d come in with my bible right and we’d sit down. We’d start to study like i mean i would go straight off right into the study and i remember him saying to me and i mean holy spirit. Just knock me out with this statement. He goes hey m passer miller. I said yeah he said like. Is it ever possible for you. And i just to get together and have a hamburger and not talk about any of this stuff right away and i thought i mean now i know what some are thinking while we’ve got to preach doctrine again. I’m with you like. I’m the first guy to raise him on that but i had not connected with this guy at all like i was. I had all the stuff hurt. I knew all the things to say. We’re in discipleship class. Bless god i’m gonna take you but he’s like and it turns out he was going through some seriously heavy stuff and here. I am ushering in my message. But i haven’t even taken the time to go. Wait a minute what is happening with you and so there would be some. That would make the case. We don’t have time for all that yes you do. We’re super super-busy. Now you’re not. I mean there’s there’s plenty of time to connect with people otherwise we’re missing the plot completely and it’s interesting because you know it. Let’s say you were saying all this and maybe you know and you didn’t have the context of being latter day. Saint as you are now we would spread like this is why churches so great gary because we have what’s called the ministering program and so everybody’s like assigned everybody else and we’re just watching over each other so don’t worry gary we we’re good there. We got it figured out right and and then on the inside we say like yeah but like nobody does it or like. What’s been your experience as far as like you. You see the structure. Is there. Gary like in i mean what’s been the the experience of understanding that the ministering program and how that’s supposed to work as sometimes it doesn’t lot times it doesn’t i would say first of all the family that was assigned to us and still as i. Yeah that that is our ministering family that has helped us and and talk to us they have been incredibly sweet. And i’m grateful for them particularly on the one brother was i. I have this retinal vein exclusion issue. That i’ve been dealing with for the last eight months in one of my eyes and he probably three or four times took me to my points. Couldn’t drive afterwards. When they give me these injections and he couldn’t have been more generous and there was. I can think of many times when when generosity has certainly been felt and very appreciate i think from administering topic general though again this comes down to the first way. I think we help people get better at this as to model. Somebody’s got to step up and start making this more about. Hey we connect with people. Keep saying this word a lot but it’s more than just you know. Well it’s the month. I i’ve sent a tax or call somebody okay. Great check right now. Obviously we’re in the middle of a pandemic right and all kinds of craziness in the world wherever you fall on all these things. It’s real that it’s crazy. So of all the times to be reaching out in an intentional deliberate nonstructured non scripted way. It’s now And so. I think that it starts by being. I think seeing others do it in a way that that is that is genuine and and just again not a scripted thing but then also knowing that you know you’ve got permission to get creative with this in other. There’s a lot of ways to come at things you don’t have to. We don’t have to fold the arms about the heavier. stop it. i mean we can. We can do this a lot of different ways. And just that that i think realizing but i think part of this skirt honestly this is. This is my basic impression. I think if folks are not daily rooted in scripture. If they’re not close to jesus prayer. I think the heart can develop a certain hardness to it that a leader make things rudimentary structure. But it’s not connected in a live personally with people and so it. Look if i stay close to the scripture. I’m gonna get close to. Jesus i’m gonna learn more. How how this. Thing routes f-. I’m close to prayer. I’m going to be much more sensitive to those prompts of the holy ghost say you need to call him. text him. Go knock on the door. Send a card to whatever. I’m going to be much more sensitive to that. And then as a result i think it’s gonna come out in how i minister to others but ministering to others. I don’t think the formula. And i’m not trying to be unkind. I don’t think the formulas here’s a link to the ministering handbook thing and we’re going to run these reports every now and again where you tell us what’s going on.

00:50:01 – 00:55:00

I understand that that makes sense. Not criticizing now. But i’m suggesting that this starts with us and is my heart sensitive to what’s happening with somebody else. I think it gets sensitive. Because i’m getting real close to the lord in the scripture getting real close to him in prayer so that i can hear it when he’s telling me. Hey go. do this go do that. If i’m doing if i’m away from those things and i’m not spending time genuinely in that pursuit that i’m not going to be a sensitive and then what am i left with. I’m with a checklist. I’m left with here. We are and that’s cold and it’s there’s not much to it and i can’t think of anything more portland for us to truly minister to people. But i think that that means where’s our source for. How effectively minister comes jesus. So that’s the source that i need to be close to it so i can understand. I can hear from the holy ghost so i’d know how to go and do right settled primary songwriter. Talk about this all the time you wanna get in my feels on my podcast. Primary songs do not break down. I can’t take but i i will go. I will do things. Lord commands right. Yeah can’t do it. F- i’m not in the word if i’m not in prayer fundamentals will help me be much better ministry. When you’re of the spirit you don’t need to be led by checklists. I love that. And i remember. I’d often remind the when. I was serving his bishop. I remember this one instance. When i called a news release citing president in her counselors and remember stating to the word. I think we you know about this. Newly called sister. And i said in one sense we look at those in the church that have callings as well. They have a lot of responsibility a lot of lot weighing on them but at the end the day they have it easy because the ministering opportunities are served to them on a platter. They don’t necessarily have to go too far to find it but it’s the lay member who has to wrestle and seek it out that becomes more difficult. We all have the requirement to minister and serve but for leaders. It can be a lot easier. So don’t look at this new release cited president thank. Oh man that she’s got a lot to to worry about now. We all have a lot to worry about. You know we all have the saints in the kingdom the that we’re worrying about and sometimes we almost not that we get excited or you know when someone gets sick or going through difficult time but when someone has some. They minister who needs to ride to their doctor. It’s sort of like all right. Like i’ve got something to do right right. I’m so glad that gary’s eyeballs about to burst. Because now i can i can serve them. It’s in the it’s in the moments where we have to sit with it and be like okay like i gotta get close to the word and i got to pray here because like how do i do this. It’s not just gonna come knocking on my door or come as a phone call from brazil. I have to engage with it and go figure had a minister. I love what you just said. I think two things have been really helpful to me because at first i did not feel and i still don’t over here i don’t feel like i’m being nearly as effective because i think i’m still trying to to sort of pay by the establish numbers. I think it hurts me as a as i reached out one. I’ve pressed in impre about this. That’s the best thing anybody listening. And i’ve simple questions. How can i do this better. And then i just recently a week ago like guys. I have not arrived on any of this stuff about a week ago. I sent a text to the brother that that i am assigned with that. We minister to a couple of things i said. Hey you’ve been on the team a lot longer than me. This was literally my tax message. You’ve been on the team a lot longer than me can you. And because i’m fighting for feedback. Can you tell me how. I what we do here. That would be more effective. Or how i can be better you know. What can i be doing to better serve these families and so it’s asking those questions even asking him even if they don’t have magical answer but you start thinking about how you can actually be better and not that. There’s some scale you’re super minister. You’re not so superminister but better in the sense that you know. Hey i think. I’ve i think i’ve got something going on here. You know i. I know that i need to that. I need to be searching like you said because not all the opportunities are going to be obvious. and let’s face it. We live in a world where most people not attend you go. Hey how are things going. Everything’s fine now. Meanwhile the house is burning down around him right. They’re dealing with a massive financial crisis or a health crisis or a merrill issue or the kids are hanging from chandeliers chandelier sums going crazy but of course we asked people especially men often. How are they going are good. We’re not good and so all of us is fighting some silent war right at some point our so. I think that asking in prayer asking people that you trust in the church people have maybe been around. That are good at it. Fight for that feedback of. What can i be doing. I’m still working on this. Because i think for me and i i’m waiting for somebody i maybe you’ll do it for me. Current some text me just say hey minister in a way that you can be creative. Gary it’s okay. You don’t have to do this. Because i feel very and again. This could be totally unfair. But i feel constrained by the culture a bit because i don’t want people thinking. Oh the guy from the outside came in and is doing this crazy stuff over here right but i just. I know that i struggle with that.

00:55:00 – 01:00:01

I want to be able to to reach a little bit more deliberately. In a way that that people can feel because i know that you know like i said that brother taken me to those eye appointments meant the world to me and that was a big obvious thing clearly like syria side issue but that meant the world to be and those conversations that happened on the way there and back those conversations were about all kinds of things right and so that can be helpful. I think fighting for the feedback praying about hiking be better. I think replaces start and i appreciate the leadership principle. I’m taking away from. This is like being intentional. Giving the people you lead permission to connect in because from your baptist experience. It was part of the culture that people would just get together and have a bible study. It’s just what you. And i think now like if i was to invite people over i mean. Obviously it’s different now. They may not want to go over. But you know getting my own group like there’s so much resistance there the introverted screaming. Don’t let these people in your house. You’ll be so uncomfortable but the more we do it. We just haven’t had the practice. I would say and i hate to make general statements but as a faith community. We haven’t had much practice in that bible. Study situation that least. I haven’t personally. And so. That’s a good place that a leader to give permission to the ward say. Hey you know you guys can get together all you want night. There’s nothing wrong with that in a few families. Find a family to do a come. Follow me lesson with this coming week and zoom or whatever just permission and reminding them that doesn’t take an act of congress doesn’t have to be church saint sanctioned or not corm approved to do these things right and it doesn’t have to be super sophisticated. I mean no one needs to have like the harmonic of the exposition of the tax. I mean this doesn’t need to be some formal. Let’s get together will pick a section at fine out of come follow me. Great runoffs dinner again in a post covid era. Now it’s fine bring your dinner onto the zoom like bring. Your dinner showed on zoom. Let’s talk. let’s chat it up. Like how do we. I mean someone doesn’t have to be like me and be like the guy preaching it. It can just as simple as hey. This is the. Let’s read it together. Hey how do we do something with this. This week is on mute. Let people talk. I mean and then all watch what happens because out of that in the beginning. Of course everybody will be sitting there like. I’m not sure but get folks used to this just used to the the cadence of it and you’ll have some conversations that will come up that a blow your mind. I’ll tell you why. Because i’ll tell you what’s going to happen because i’ve seen this many many times in my previous world the holy ghost is going to get up in on some of these conversations and is going to there’s going to be revelation at some insight that you would never thought of plus people are giving an insight into them and now we’ve got something that we can really talk to somebody about. It’s much easier to have that conversation. Because i’ve been meeting with you for months and we’ve been you know having wednesday night in a pizza food study and discussion and so when i ask you four months later in how you doing garam god yes yes. I’m doing horrible. And here’s why. Because now i’ve built this bridge and this awareness bridge this connection bridge that otherwise i wouldn’t have. I think sometimes you know you’ll you’ll relate to this. I think sometimes when we’re ministering were doing it like cold calling right like nobody knows our name yet and it feels that way because we haven’t done this other stuff on the front and so i think when we’re ministering it should be warm calls and if it’s warm calls we’ve warmed them up through connection right and so yeah. I think about that often. I did a thing on my and i didn’t. I didn’t do anything with kerr. And you know what you just challenged me just by looking at me that way to do this this coming week. I told my podcasts. I said well you know what we need to do for the people that listen to me like being hit play. Every time i come on guys we need to have zoom at least once a month where we all jump on and we’re just having a virtual prayer meeting we need to do it and i said that and i didn’t do anything with kirk because i tell you what i thought. I thought either. One people are going to think that. I’m turning this into some kind of pentecostal revival which ranks would be us but not doing that. We need a little pentecostal frank. But but i was worried about that or i thought people be like in a brother miller be can’t i’m like what we’re getting together to pray. I got acts all over this. Become together pray right. So i need to do stuff i need to do it. And i’m naturally built for that right but it’s those things where we get out and find if two people show up and we come together and agree in some prayer. Can god move on that prayer. Absolutely he can’t but it gets us in a cadence together because we’re doing something that’s different. And what did paul say beginning. Roams the fellowship of you. And i are friendship is built on the fellowship of our mutual faith you and me and so when we do things like that a simple prayer meeting once a month i mean imagine kurt. I’m not pitching you but imagine if you got your community together with mine and we brought everybody together for a prayer meeting once a month on zoom i tell you a bunch of people would show up and if nothing else happened if you and i were the only ones prion spirit would move. I promise you would. And so it’s that kind of stuff again. We’re not changing the sacramento.

01:00:01 – 01:05:05

The wrote no we are living it. I mean i think that’s living in a very real way and kurt might at that app and he shouldn’t. I’m telling you that’s a good idea. No i think. I think we gotta put a leading saints Narrow gate podcast. Fray her subterranean together. I’m telling him all right. We’ll look let’s do. let’s do anyway. Let me to throw you off with that. I just think. I just felt led to say that i think the spirit throws both off of that. So that’s yeah dynamic really intrigued to get your input in ’cause let me give you two hypothetical situations and you can crack me on the baptist when i would imagine and maybe you telling us more about your experience. When was there a moment. Like what the process of becoming a baptist minister like. Do you have to fill out an application as some committee somewhere. Sign off on it. Do you just say hey have putting his money together. I got my fifteen chairs in here. We go like but there’s this moment nobody called you and said brother miller. We are like to extend the calling as a badly administered. Eat right so how. How did how does that work. Like the technicalities of it. You don’t no one ever asked me that question ever. That’s awesome do here gary. I’m so there’s really two kind of lines kirk to traditional lines here one is the sort of protege line so think of it as the apprenticeship line okay so you said under the preaching of somebody that’s been doing it you senator that for certain period of time there’s not a manual on if that’s three years five years and three months but you sit under that teaching or part of that really understand core doctrines the fundamentals of the faith you will and then in sitting under that then you start to preach some and then you start to preach more and then you know magically hey you’re good you’ve been under this for awhile either. They call you like they not in the sense that like you said nobody calls you up on the phone or like they’ll tell you. Hey man you’re you’re good to go. You don’t need to sit under us. You should go. You should go start a church or you feel that way and you like i impressed. It’s our time to go. That was me right now. The other path. And i’m kind of both. I was like a hybrid. So this is a bit of a mix up right so the other path is to do exactly what i said but then you go through formal seminary right so you go to grad school. Get an md masters of divinity. And do that kind of thing. So i went to do my. Md liberty theological seminary. I did it virtually because that’s in lynchburg. Virginia and i lived in texas. I was in the military at the time. Thank you. Gi bill for pain for but yes so we did that while doing the sort of apprenticeship version by the debt so i was kind of a combination but ultimately kurt to answer the question ultimately. Somebody has that clear impression that it’s time to do it but normally not in a vacuum. You know somebody. Has you have sat under somebody. You’ve been exposed enough. You know that that’s happened but but you don’t need a permission slip. Let’s be fair if you feel it. You’re gonna put yourself on the line. You’re going to order the chairs. you’re gonna show up for the first meeting. I mean look. The first meeting was me my wife our youngest daughter at the time. There’s only one out at the time and a cat in the living room. That was meeting number one. I preached are two. It was awesome but we had this thing called the internet. Which really helped me. So i was recording all my sermons. I put them up and people are listening little facebook. Geo targeting on the ads. You know the deal and more people started hearing. Yeah goes from there. Yeah pathways but that’s generally it and i appreciate understand sort of that experience where there is a smaller. Thought i feel called. I want to. I want to step forward and lead and and lee church right now. take that to. Let’s say i am. Let’s say i’m in a word and here. The bishop is was transferred out of state. He’s moving so we know his release is coming. And i think well great that set point with the stake president. I said president. Whoever like i i want you know like i just love this gospel. I wanna serve. I think i would be a good option for the next bishop. I when i have some experience. I’ve been a bishop. So that might help and i loved it and so i wanna do it again like will you consider me now. If that happened my name would move from. Maybe the top of the list to all the way down to the bottom like this guy is not understand how this works. So i’m curious really seriously i mean i. Maybe i’m exposing you to part of our culture is live. I’m good no no. I’m just getting so where were you are somebody who’s experienced a good. You know what it’s like to retired you know. It was like the lead like to organize a church. Do all these things. Now you’re in you’re in this organization where you just. You can’t step forward. And say well. I want to lead and if you do. They’re sort of this feeling like well. Are you aspiring to certain calling and and that’s very look down about now. I’m i do all podcast on what i think about aspiring to callings because the reality is i was a bishop at twenty eight little young.

01:05:05 – 01:10:00

Didn’t know what i was doing. I sure hope. I get another opportunity at it. I sure hope. I get more opportunity leadership now. If i was say that people would be like. No you’re you’re not supposed to say that. So you’ve shifted from this culture of yes step. Were elite brother hallelujah. Like let’s hear him to this culture of like you. Just wait your turn. And maybe maybe. If now i’m kicking a lot of sacred cows here because i truly believe yeah it is done by. People are called of god through prayer and and these things but as sort of my heart aches for you a little bit. I think this is why you’ve started your podcasts. So you have an avenue to preach and share your testimony. Because i’m like here comes. Gary has so much has so much going momentum the spirit and now he has to just sit there you know like and maybe we’ll be called to a score presidency or whatever and that’d be awesome but it just is such a different dynamic and i’m curious may maybe again. I’m just revealing the cbo but what thoughts come to mind like how. I don’t know i there’s no question in there but i’m just like wow interesting thing that gary’s water so again in the interest of of honoring your your shell honoring the audience. I’ll try to be careful with this. As i can’t be i mean that i think that’s important so this was an has been and i don’t you know for the people who listen to me enough. They know. I don’t talk about this stuff as if i’ve arrived in a figured it out and i’ve made peace with everything i haven’t. I mean there are some of this that i genuinely struggle with this topic. Kirk hundred percent struggle with. I do i mean they may i mean and i don’t you know i’m sure someone would love me to say. Well you know now that i’m part of this. I just accept. This is all part of divine economy of how this works. And everything’s going wherever whenever and whenever and if it’s all good. I don’t think that way at all. It’s frustrating to me personally but also know the church is not here just to cater to my needs but i do think as paul said so effectively writing to a church that at least in some parts was kind of a hot mess. He’s talking to the church of corinth and he and he reminds them that. We’ve all got sort of gifts differing right. it’s really important. Trae so like a lot of people on all sides of the doctrinal scale from the most progressively liberal doctrinal people to the hardest core folks to guys like me college more in the middle. I think that if we understand that people have gifts different kurt than than we go. Okay one that helps me understand. Different approaches a little bit better than me and after like everything but it makes me understand a little bit but for me. That is something that and i don’t know what the solve is for. I don’t think there is one. I think i have to continue to sorta grow and grace as the scripture. Tell me but right. But i do have i do have avenues. And and that’s you know. I knew the podcast was going to start before i went to the stake center to get baptized. I told crystal. I’m like. I can’t do this if i literally. I can’t. I can’t if i’m going to sit in not teach not preach not doing. I can’t no hard pass. And i said i have to have this as part of this. She’s absolutely and you know. Because that was i mean again that might sound incredibly self serving and that’s okay but that’s part of the gifts and i’ve been doing this for a long time. I don’t think. God gives gifts that he just wants you to put on a shelf forever. I don’t think that makes sense. And so thankfully i haven’t an outlet in a way but do i do. I wish i had that reach and the ability to connect and kinda set cultural pace and and light some people up on a sunday morning. Yeah of course. I do and by the way light up in a good way right. I mean i want. I want you to walk out from a sermon on sunday. Being ready to take on the world with a water pistol. Go winning souls all over the place. Do i wish. I was doing that every week like i used to. Of course you. And i. I confided in you in our pre interview conversations. I mean i’ve sat. I shared this on my podcast a couple of weeks ago. I’ve asked my wife more than what’s been like babe. No-one’s here no one’s listening. I did the right thing bright. You know like. I mean this. This was right. That’s not some questioning of the church of questioning doctrine. It’s your place in it and your place in this world as it were so. I bet i’ve had those moments many many times. Yeah and you know. I i appreciate that you know walking into your baptism where you telling you. I need an avenue here. And it’s going to be a podcast but i needn’t avenue and when i you know i’m about to move into new ward in january building a home that we’re moving in and apart amis walking into that war thinking i’ve gotta lead somewhere like i don’t need to be the bishop but i i’ve gotta lead somewhere because that’s just who i am and what i do and so i i may be the annoying guy who’s like stuff or you know i may be looking to a get familiar with the bishop and the president not because i’m gunning for the job because like hey. I’m here like i’m experienced. What put me to work. Like what can i do. And unfortunately in our culture.

01:10:00 – 01:15:09

And i’m just gonna call it out how i see it in our culture. We sorta think no actually what you’re supposed to do is when a new bishop is called. Were supposed to like passively aggressively. Act like we don’t want ed and oh boy well maybe you’ll grow grow out. You know just so. I don’t get calls like why like. Why join you some part of our culture. And i wanna tell. People come to and i was bishop. They’re like oh. You’re bishop like i never want to do that. And i’d say like why it’s the best calling in the church like i. I’d encourage anybody if you get this opportunity. Say yes it is so remarkable. You get to see that. You told me on the the atonement work from the sidelines. I marvel you know. And but so this is something i guess. Sort of warning you walk into this culture a little bit. But also i want inspire you and others to say like we’ve got to stop this passive aggressive of not wanting to lead and i get life is busy or whatever but then we You know the the scripture reference but he who desires to be bishop desires a good thing or a good cause right like you go. It’s beautiful and we have to stop being like. I don’t know i don’t really want that and if i do. I’m aspiring this whole aspiring thing. Is we it needs to be calmed. Question is what. I’m saying so and it was built so boy. We have all sorts of editing to do. But i can do any of that. Gary i don’t think you should. I think it’s great. Yeah i think. I think this is. This is a conversation worthy of annette’s right because he’s a real for me. I mean again. I appreciate your comment about. the beard. thing was hilarious. Like i gotta go like meditate on that. But yeah as someone who has a beard. But i i wonder about for me. This was genuinely wrestle in the process and it still is and how that pans out. Who knows but i am thankful. And it’s all the more reason i think for those that feel like you know. Look i was in the military for twelve years. I was a non noncommissioned officer leading and kind of charge an and make it away at dna an entrepreneur on top of it right. I mean like shut the front door. I mean we do so when i think about that and then obviously doing it with with the church where i came from. This is something that i know that. It’s all the more reason to do things like we talked about even as informal as they are and certainly aren’t against anything but it’s all the more reason. Say hey i’m gonna. I’m gonna start having meeting every winston and i’m not trying to start a cell church here okay. This is just if nothing else. I set the pace right. I model these things that i’m wanting to see right. I mean i bring in a lot of other faith quotes but you know. Be the difference. You want to see in the world right. So i mean that’s the thing so if i can set that having a prayer meeting having whatever i mean at least informally that some way for me to and others i think to find a place of impact because i think there’s a reason i don’t think people grow cold on the pew for no reason a lot of elements and they certainly was where i came from but somewhere built in their impact. Do i even make an impact on this thing. Like if i was laying on the floor and the and the four year because passed out and was you know what everybody just walked by. Somebody say brother. Miller right. I mean do i have. I made enough of an impact does it. I mean. I think this is an important question. Some would not like this question. But that’s okay. I think when we’re sitting there in the room got ask that question. Does it matter that i’m here. Yes does it matter that i’m in this building. This war district. Does it really matter. Because i could be plenty. I could have been in the baptist church when it was alive. And well i could be down at the glory house charismatic church. What a great name church. Glory house. Like so i could be anywhere but does it matter that i’m here. Not because i want everybody to cater to me no that’s shortsighted to think that’s what that’s about. This is about goldman. Do i make some kind of impact here and kurt. It’s not enough to go. Of course you make an impact through some mystical of your smile brigade. Come on really like. I want to make an impact. Now that’s going to be different for. Everybody gets differing again. But that’s what i think about. And i struggled with it and i think i’m certainly not the only one man preach a brother like this this concept of of really ask you know. Do i have purpose here. And i think going back to our larger discussion here of ministry to be an effective minister. I truly believe you have to demand influence and again. That doesn’t mean that. That when i move into my new war that i’m gonna make it clear the state president that i need to be the next bishop where i need his job or whatever now if that comes it’d be like great that just makes us my influence a lot easier to obtain and i’m ready to roll but to go into award and say i’m just not going to be here. I’m going to have influence dramatic influence in this ward. And if there’s any. I learned from being a bishop it is. I woke up one day and thought you know there’s nothing ide do that. Most people can’t do like the. Yeah there’s a few technicality administrative things but ice shake people’s hands at the back of the chapel. Anybody can do that. I’m not gonna like off or kick them out if you know welcoming the everybody into the chapel and so it just helped me leave that calling and say you know wherever i go.

01:15:09 – 01:20:08

I’m going to have just as much influence as i had as bishop and that doesn’t mean i demand a calling or i need a calling to make myself southfield good but i need influence. Because that’s i’m a creation of heavenly father and that’s what he’s gray to do and that brings in more glory when i have influence you know. Yeah and i think that’s. That’s that’s great. I think that’s a problem though. Also for somebody new coming in the team. Because we don’t feel like we have any influence here because you’re like the rookie right now. And so if you feel like you don’t have that influence or i would just put this forward and i’m not trying to open up other rabbit trails here but if somebody is not a convert me so first of all you come in and your you still kind of feel like the outsider. No matter how nice everybody has and it’s cool but you don’t feel like you have that influence yet. Also if you’re somebody that might be a little different. Maybe you’re different. ’cause you’re backgrounds different. Maybe you look at the world a little bit differently. Maybe who you are is a little bit different and so that person could also feel like how can i have any influence because it seems like the only way to get influences to be like everybody else that i’m clearly not right so that person could feel lost right and floating around in the vortex of loss. Now if you want the ultimate recipe for trouble well. I feel a little bit. Lost sonam drifted away from the scripture. Now i’m drifting away for prayer spend more time reading blogs and read it and whatever else come on somebody and then i go straight off the deep end and not. Because i’m not a good person. Not because i didn’t have no trace this all the way back so i felt like i didn’t have any influence and that i love that you bring up influenced by the way everybody listening. That was not in the script for tonight. That is something that people. If they don’t feel like they have any influence. I think influence and impact travel together right. And so if i feel like i don’t have any because i’m new or because i’m different because i had a divorce because filling the blank whatever it is then that can start a cycle that is really concerning and again i would circle back and i know i bang on this key a lot on the piano but the worst thing like the worst thing i can think of doing right there to that person’s feel that way as all right. Hold on. Let me reference the checklist of what i’m supposed to say here. Let’s go through this sort of procedural game and knock connecting with people as to borrow kurt is at the heart level. And so i think that that’s That’s part of this. Meant that’s awesome well. Our time is short here but Says we have certain time we need a hit that we don’t let me ask about you. Know when i think of. I remember as a young missionary i was in sacramento and i pulled over and it was just pumping gas into the car. I was driving and two baptist ministers cornered me and here. I am dislike. Hey guys i’m just getting gas here. I’m not looking for some theological argument. Right i remember one. I even have it still take my journal. He liked gave me this. This is area somewhere. I’d have to look it up. What isaiah scripture was and he was just like i remember clearly said to me. God is calling you out of the mormon church you know like okay man. I’m just getting gas again. I just want to move out of the airways and curious like like there’s some strong beliefs in doctrine in in the baptist. Church that they hammer really hard like coming over to our church like you know one of my pet topics that the audience is probably tired of me hitting on. Is this concept of grace. Where i just feel like. We haven’t learned how to sit with grace in our we believe it to the fullest to me. I would say we believe it. As much as the baptists or evangelical ‘s but there’s something about our experience for some reason that we have a hard time sitting with and we default to behaviors behaviors behaviors. You know and it’s in the slightest and most nuanced ways were every discussion then comes around to. Yeah but remember that checklist we to get that ministering done and and make sure you’re still engaged right. What’s your experience or or was that a sticking point for you. I mean because i feel like grace’s a prominent I mean it is the doctrine of of jesus christ so what was your experience with some of those doctrines coming to the church. Goodness gracious so. I think look. Everybody should know this verse. If they don’t need to go highlighted about ten times in your bible bud to eight nine. We’ll tell you that. Were saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast right so i understand what you’re saying some of the things that hit me wrong when i walked in and i would hear people say something in sunday school. That would make my thought. I was like having a seizure. Like i was like. What did they say and again. I think people are uncomfortable. Not just here anywhere. I think paul touches this very strongly in the book of romans. I think we want so badly to follow. The law were bent toward the law or towards the checklist where towards works. But the reality is the salvation plan is built built on the finished work of jesus.

01:20:08 – 01:25:02

Christ which is a work of grace. We talk about the atonement. Things i loved when i came over here. Is that the super wide. This thing touches can touch anything any situation any person and he thinks it’s super but we’re bent to it. We want to say what it is that we do or what we don’t do. That’s either keeping us inner goddess. In right that’s look affair are making the case pause to make the case against it and you say look. It’s not about that you saved by grace through faith do works matter. Of course they do their reflection of genuine conversion and it happens over time. What did paul said. The thing that i don’t wanna do. I do all the time thing i should do. I don’t do enough of welcome to me. Welcome to you right. So this grace question. I think listen there are procedures. The bible’s full of some lists. There’s no question about but our whole. Look when jesus said it’s finished in the scripture friend. He meant it he meant it. He wasn’t stuttered and he wasn’t convinced he said i’ve already taken care of sort of this whole thing out by the finish work of the cross so as a result when you and i step into that grace. It’s not an allowance to go be crazy. Paul opens up the letter of the glacier. Shouting him down. Koertzen you guys are frustrated. The grace of god right because we just said oh. I’m under grace. I’ll be a crazy person now. That’s not the allow. What’s but grace’s this thing where we get our orientation set on the idea. What is the old here. Jesus paid at all. Oh all to him. I o sin. If left a kremlin sandy washed widish. No you were talking about is. Am go there you go so it is something that i think we need to get a hold of because when you’re operating in grace now it’s everything is on what jesus did. Not what on. I do you know i mean what am i gonna do. That’s going to top the fundamental grace of god. Nothing but that grace of god allows me to start working and becoming more. Like jesus right. Jesus told us he said look. You’re going to do greater works than these ones that i’ve been doing talk about signs wonders and miracles. Warm not eleven. I’m the god miracles but but this is something. Where grace is a thing where you and i have to fundamentally stop we i think we get way too prideful in my where i came from. Kurt’s keep it so we don’t. I don’t rub everybody wrong by saying what i’m saying about grace came from. They were so interested in all the things that they didn’t do. We don’t watch tv. We don’t you know we don’t watch rated movies. We don’t do this we don’t do this. Don’t do this and very proud of that list. Good list. I mean look. There’s some good lists in there. Come out from among them be separate touch. Not the unclean thing. I’m with it down with world leads cool but our foundation in our piece is in jesus jesus already paid at all so we can step operate through that grace when we do. Here’s the secret then. We’ll start extending that grace to other. See when we’re doing the checklist thing. We tend to take the checklist everybody else. When they don’t fit our checklist we wanna shout him down rebuke him. Tell him that they’re not as good as we are. And and people feel isolated and it just as a hot mess but when we’re understanding grace and we’ve real and it’s all over your new testament friends and it’s all over your book of mormon. You gotta tear a lot of pages out a lot of pages out for you to think that it’s anything else so as a result then we start extending that grace to our spouse and extending grace to our kids and to our friends into our co workers. What’s the grace grace. The unmerited favor right. i didn’t do anything to earn it. It’s a gift of god what romans lest any man should boast right so efficient. So the point is i struggled with this but the issue is either jesus paid at all or he didn’t and i think that’s what we come to with grace and i really. Yeah no it doesn’t. And i think it comes when you start mixing that message with into leadership i mean because a lot of the pushback i get from leaders like okay khor i get it i we all wanna feel loved and we want a beautiful experience at church but we gotta get some stuff done. So how do you lead. And or preach with from the standpoint of grace and get people to leave their who that now they want to minister more and now they want to. You know they want to serve more. They want to do the temple work. They want to do these things. Because i feel like that’s where leaders are so afraid of completely embracing the grace message in every single meeting. Is they think. Well what if. I do that and sure. We’ll feel good but nobody does anything because of it. Well i’m all about go. And do but i think people can be empowered to go and do when they understand what jesus already. Did you admit some. i think. I think it’s that simple. I can preach your head off the next hour on grace. But i mean i i think if people understand what jesus did and why did it.

01:25:03 – 01:30:03

Romans three twenty three all of sending come short of the glory of god. That’s you that’s me. There was a penalty for that. He paid the penalty so we wouldn’t have to write so as a result if we understand what jesus already did then we will want to go and do. The things were called to do the things that the scripture tells us to do. Because we’ve got the model already. I know who i’m following. Jesus said go forth and preach the gospel to every creature. I’m not sure if. I should invite them to church. Mark sixteen fifty says you should. You’ll meet me sorry. Well i’m not sure that i should be praying for healing. Sorry that’s already covered to. You should do that by his stripes. We are all these things we already have them. I think that if we really understood what she’s already did then we’ll know what to do and if we will teach how do we. How do you preach to get people to go and do stuff preach the word. Now feel that. Thanks for that delay in the internet. Because now i’ve got a better answer here. It is if you preach what jesus did people know what to go and do if you preach the book of acts they’re gonna know what to go and do not get up and quote three thousand quotes from somebody else had already quoted it. Don’t get nervous. I’m not trying to be offensive here. I’m just trying to tell you preach the book if you’re getting up to give a talk. Preach the gospel preached. What what did he do in matthew mark luke and john. What was the early church in the book of acts if you want people to know what they need to do. Go read axe. Go do it praying so winning. Healing miracles praising worship visiting gathering going doing. I mean that it’s all over acts so if we want them to know what to do through the grace message. Use god’s grace stab enough courage to get up and just preach the book. It’s just right there. That’s all that it is. I mean i’ve challenged my podcast listeners. Awhile ago i said for the rest of the year just read the gospels over and over and over again until you just can’t do it and just start over again. Not because i don’t think everything else is unimportant. I just want you. I think we’re we spend all this time talking about jesus and about church stuff but we don’t get intimately connected with. This is what he actually did. What was he doing you know. He was reaching the fringe reaching the marginalized. Are we doing that. Are we shouting the marginalized down or we actually reaching them. Because that’s what he was doing. The person you and i wouldn’t talk to. Jesus was going and talking to them. The person and i wouldn’t have come within a million miles up. He was gone and talkative. Someone was sick. He was healing. Well everybody like me and you should have some oil honest with somebody sickly. Hannah pray for become on. I mean this is in there so we preach preach the book. That grace message gets into doing. Because jesus said you’ll know them by their fruit. So you’ll know him by. They’re doing but they’ll do it because of grace. Wow that’s powerful gary. Where where would you send people. Obviously for your podcast. I mean i. I enjoy listening to it and and and a lot of them are just brief. You know ten fifteen minutes. The strong message. So where would you send people to connect with you and listen to more of your your stuff. I would send them to narrow gate. Podcasts dot com all one big word narrow gate podcast dot com. All of our episodes. Are there you can use as many or as little as you like. They are generally pretty short and lots of bible. Lots of book bormann. Now we’re fired up over there like you know you’re going to get. You’re going to get preached out. We’re going to get fired up. We’re going to celebrate. Jesus miracles what he’s doing and i know that if people hang around there long enough they’ll get in their scripture and and they’ll get excited about what they find. Well i praise god that you have that venue avenue to cheer your light because man please don’t ever put those skills away in their restored gospel. I mean this is god’s kingdom and we need that piece of you to all grow and learn so. I’m glad that you have that. Podcast stream to speak to. So gary last question i have is Reflecting on your time as a leader both in the baptist church and now is the latter day saints. How has being a leader helped you become a better follower of jesus. Christ what a question you that the end of every one of your up. That’s my thing that’s long. Yeah it’s kind of a john lee dumas thing at the end. Yeah so. I’m sure he does john anyway. So ask me that again. I wanna make sure that. I understood it. So reflecting on your experience as a leader both in the baptist church was the latter day saint. How is being a leader helps you become a better follower of jesus christ. Yeah so. I think that part of leadership is setting the example setting the pace and setting an example. And so in doing that. I have to know more about who jesus is not just who. He was on the pages of the scripture but who he is in my life now and it forces me by way not forcing in a bad way but it really drives me to find a way to get as close to him. As i can so that i can be more like him whenever i’m leading whether i’m leading myself because it starts there or leading my family or leading podcast audience or or leaning whatever so a team at work it all applies but it really helps me to be a leadership position.

01:30:03 – 01:34:14

I think immediately drives me to a place of humility and goes. I do not know at all and i better get close to the one who does and so that helps me follow after the savior and follow after what. He’s given me so that. I could be better for somebody else. That concludes my interview with gary miller. Definitely check out his podcast. Just search the narrow gate podcast and you’ll find it there and whatever podcasting app you listen to just so uplifting the perspectives he shares the scriptures. He connects his messages to our great. Definitely one to have on your on your feet and listened to regularly. And i hope you appreciate this throat of the the rawness of this of this conversation. You know it’s one of those. Where after the conversation. I sort of a day of passover. Was that like to too intense what we were talking about. But but it’s we’re just trying to talk about the realities of of some of these situations. I mean this concept of influence and desiring influence and being okay with that influence at or being okay with desire influence because as many of you know who follow the newsletter. The leading states newsletter. We’ve been doing the series of of simple messages or articles around the concept of aspiring. And what does it mean to aspire. And why does it have such a negative connotation in our faith community as opposed to others where gary’s experience he want to become a preacher and he was sort of applauded for that and where in our faith community. That’s sort of discouraged. I get there’s some technicalities and differences you know as far as how inspiration for these callings comes in and whatnot. But i think it’s worth wrestling with is far as just so we don’t disenfranchise people who really want to make a difference because we’re literally building the kingdom of god. Why wouldn’t people want to be involved in that. And if they do like they should never be shamed or discouraged or for wanting to lead in that that dynamic right and so anyways. I really hope wherever you’re at whatever calling you have you have a sense or a desire for influence in your life in your ward in your faith community that your presence that you want to have purpose in being there and participating and contributing in seeing a difference because of your work. We are children of god and he has created us. He hasn’t stillness talents and abilities so that we could bring glory to him because we are his creations and there’s great work that can be done as we shift that mindset of saying you know what. I don’t need to be the bishop. I don’t need be the relief society. If i am great but i will have influence here for good. And where where can i go. Where pointing the right direction. Lord and on and i’ll do it i think it’s such a remarkable discussion and concept to to think about so again definitely of subscribe to the narrow gate podcasts. Listen to gary moore. You can tell that he is such a vibrant voice to listen to and you’ll definitely appreciate that if there’s anybody else you think i should reach out to interview. Please go to leading saints contact. We have a lot of names that come in but that doesn’t mean we should slow down the names that are coming in. Please let us know if there’s individuals we reach out to. That’s how i got connected with. Gary miller and i’m so glad i did. My life has been blessed. I hope your life is an blessed as well and remind you once again to text. The word lead to four seven four seven four seven in order to subscribe to the leading saints weekly newsletter. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us. I the god of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of jesus christ was made concerning the own only true and living church upon the face of the earth. We were immediately put in a position of loneliness loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor runaway and a which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.

Norm Hill worked for Exxon Mobile for 25 years and then for Reliant Energy as the vice president of Human Resources. He served as the mission president of the Ghana Accra Mission, temporarily including the Sierra Leone Freetown Mission, and is the author of What They Don’t Teach You at the MTC.

Highlights

6:00 Getting from an application to an idea; example of identifying competencies from Preach My Gospel and creating a self-assessment and training program for missionaries; example of creating reverse dinner appointments for missionaries; example of the innovation in missionary work
11:00 Applying general principles: the same principles apply to virtual teaching
15:15 Getting past the creative barrier to do something different; example of air conditioning in church buildings
17:00 Example of basketball courts in Ghana: applications can be customized without compromising gospel principles
19:35 Design Thinking focus on problem solving together

1. Empathy
2. Defining: gathering good information; example of self-assessment for teachers
3. Ideating
4. Creating a prototype
5. Measuring your success
6. Experimenting
7. Improving

24:00 Information leads to inspiration: identifying local/individual circumstances where an organization can make changes to lift to a higher ground; example of using ministering brothers and sisters to gather information
28:20 How do you know you’re gathering the right data? We have basic gospel principles and structures for guidance
29:30 Example of effective virtual teaching

• Asking “what” and “how” to get good information
• Look for themes
• Bring information to a council/quorum and seek inspiration and revelation

34:20 Example of request for a hospital in Ghana and recognition of the high number of people receiving financial assistance
38:35 Example of more men than women being baptized in West Africa and recognition of the need for literacy training for women
43:20 Brainstorming using a facilitator and reframing the problem; example from Tom Sawyer: redefining to change perspectives
47:55 “Too often problem solving is a solution in search of a problem” as opposed to gathering information first
48:30 Are there other ways of defining the problem? Example of slow elevator/impatient people problem; example of missionaries teaching starting with the fruits of the gospel and moving back to the doctrine
54:30 Reframing the problem of making connections during isolation; example of how church members connected during “the freeze” in Ghana; example of Sierra Leone during the Ebola epidemic
1:03:00 Applying the process: mindset of testing/observing and being willing to experiment outside of your comfort zone
1:09:50 Adjustments and guard rails: example of New Orleans bridge
1:12:40 The new normal: what are we learning about ourselves that we can take with us?

Links

What They Don’t Teach You at the MTC, by Norman Hill

Transcript

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00:00:00 – 00:05:09

Welcome back to another episode of the leading saints. Podcast if you’ve enjoyed content on this podcast. It’s important that. I tell you about the leading saints newsletter that we send out every week this newsletter keeps you up to date on all the current leading saints content releases including podcasts articles online events and even live events. That might be happening in your own area in this newsletter. We also recommend some past episodes and written articles that you don’t want to miss each week. We include additional leadership perspectives and thoughts. That you can only find in the weekly newsletter. So you definitely don’t want to miss out to subscribe to the weekly newsletter simply text. The word lead to four seven four seven four seven or visit leading saints dot org slash. Subscribe again text. The word l. e. a. d. two four seven four seven four seven or visit leading saints dot org slash subscribe. So you don’t miss any future leading saints content. I was brand new presidents and trying to figure out what to do in my calling. And i was just got on the internet ideas and thoughts on how to how to proceed and since then i’ve had several different callings each time. I have a new calling. That’s the first thing i do is go into your podcast and your blogs and see okay. What have other people done. And that’s helped me tremendously. Because i don’t have all the answers and i haven’t had all those different experiences but being able to start off on the right foot is super powerful so yeah love your content and love everything that you eight. This is kurt. franken with leading saints. Say we’ll be back to another episode of this phenomenal podcastone. Have the best job in the world mean. This is a lot of fun. i love it now. If you’re new to leading saints Come on in. we’re glad you’re here. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping latter day saints. Be better prepared to lead and would do that through various methods like this podcast we have online articles leading saints dot org. We do virtual conferences who got a newsletter. That goes out every tuesday. You must not miss. And i’m sure many other things i can’t think of right now but i’m glad you’re introduced to the leading saints world. Now this episode is another goodie. I really try not to have episodes. that aren’t goodies. And this is with norm. He’ll he is a former mission president. Who served in in ghana as a mission president and he tells some phenomenal stories from that time but he is also an author lives down in saint. George was introduced to him which i it burst Forget the beginning this episode. Which you’ll probably hear. I forget how i was introduced to nor because we’ve had several conversations since we’ve been introduced and they’re just been phenomenal. I’ve learned so much from him is perspective and as we were talking. I thought you know what this guy could really help. Some church leaders out there who are sorta feeling stuck in the midst of this Shut down in. The midst of the pandemic were churches. Shutdown activities are somewhat shut down. You know not totally but it feels that way more than not and we don’t know what to do. We tried the zoom meeting thing for a while or activities through zoom or and it just wasn’t jivan right and so we need to figure out how to begin to think. Outside the box think creatively and establish some things some habits some activities. Some efforts are going to Motivate the word and keep them focused on whatever vision you’ve established in your organization in norm as a phenomenal job at this really taking us through solid principles that i think you’ll appreciate and be able to apply right away also recently. We are connected through cedar fort because he’s writing a book. They is called what they don’t teach you in the mtc. Actually he already wrote. It comes out in march and Definitely book to pick up because the especially whether you are preparing a missionary or whether you are trying to be a better member missionary. It’s going to be phenomenal book. And i’m sure there’s future content that we can cover with him around that topic. So you’re gonna love is my interview with norm. He’ll the author of what they don’t teach you in the mtc. today. I’m connected with the normal. How are you. i’m doing great. Thanks so much kurt awesome. I’m excited to have you on here. I’m trying to think her. We usually get connected. Did someone connected. Yes that’s through cedar for their publishing a book that i’ve written called what they don’t teach you at the mdc so things that missionaries need to learn that they don’t have time to teach at the missionary training center virtual or actual and you’ve had some experience teaching you’re teaching missionaries in your own rights or visit mission. President was in ghana correct ghana accra west mission twenty thirteen to twenty sixteen during that time period because of the ebola crisis when fulltime missionaries were withdrawn from sierra i was also asked to preside over the sierra leone freetown to missions for the price of one is.

00:05:09 – 00:10:03

Wow what a responsibility. I’m sure there’s many stories that you could tell i could feel its own podcast several episodes. I’m sure i i’ll at least share a couple now. Maybe you’ll be back later awesome. No that’d be great. That’d be great. Yes we got connected through an intrigued by the premise of this book. And remind me is isn’t out yet or does it come out march. Night is the release date so got out our tonight’s twenty twenty one it’ll be out and the idea is again. There’s a lot of things that are important missionaries. That don’t get caught the mdc. They just don’t have enough time. They have to focus on a few priorities. And so i’ve taken things that are part of preach my gospel and expanded the provided application shown. How in very ordinary ways mysterious can become extraordinary love so give us an example of maybe be that application processor how to get from the an idea to application to tell missionaries die. You want to jump into discussion of sort of broader approach of how leaders in general can do that good so i’m going to give a couple of different examples if that’s okay. Great so one is in preach my gospel. There’s a description of a lot of skills and abilities but they’re not identified. Always in a very cohesive way at one of the things. I did. When i worked i worked for exxon mobil for twenty five years and then six years for reliant energy as the vice president of human resources and we would identify competencies for jobs and then train people to be more effective than those competencies. Those skills and abilities so one of the things i did is extracted from preach my gospel. The competencies some that are well identified some that are more subtle nuance identified them. Put them on cards and ask missionaries to do a self assessment of how good they were on those particular competencies and then design. Help them design their own. Individualized customized training program to get better at so. That’s available from preach my gospel. But it’s not explicit. That’s one example. To a second example is specifically around how concerned members a lot of times missionaries are looking for big service opportunities. When it’s little things that can make a difference. Every missionary likes to have dinner appointments but in places living doesn’t matter where you to serve in places like ghana but it was also true in texas a counselor on the texas houston mission presidency members. Sometimes it can be economically challenged in people in ghana don’t have a lot and have dinner for the missionaries can be a burden so we developed an award in our mission leader council but we called reverse dinner appointments reverse. Da’s where we to dinner to members as opposed always expecting them to come to us and sometimes it wasn’t always dinner sometimes. It was just banana. Bread members appreciated that so very much. I have a grandson whose serving in the dominican republic reassigned to arizona now and in both arizona and in the dr. He took brownies or banana. Bread to members or investigators it created a bond between them that was beyond anything that occurred through the individual discussions. So those are again. That’s an example of a way of giving service a third sort of example. That’s very relevant today. And i hope to this. Discussion is around virtual teaching and virtual contacting today bottom. Missionaries are in lockdown. they have a grandson. Who’s in puerto rico. Their face zero. That can’t do normal prosperity so they knew contacting through facebook or by getting acquainted with people interest groups on the web. That’s so new that it’s not taught at the mtc. There’s a few kind of ways the missionary committee is trying to bolster that among missionaries. But it’s emergency. Missionaries are designing creating learning on the fly in ghana. We had what we call rainy-day plans. It sometimes can be monsoon rain for a day or two or three days sometimes two or three weeks and missionaries needed to come up with plans when they couldn’t go out do normal prosecuted. Those are three examples. Yeah love that’s really helpful. Because i think what i see and help me think through this if i did come to mind but in general leadership world in church i think everybody thinks what.

00:10:03 – 00:15:15

What are we doing here. What are we trying to do. And it’s like well we’re we’re trying to bring people under christ okay but usually that’s where it kind bands in that. I think what you’re talking about with the preach my gospel that has a great a lot of up perspectives. In help like that. You’re some things. Some focuses and direction to go. But then it’s the worst. It comes after that. I think you’re really good at helping people. Think through just like in your mission and ghana where sigua bring people in the christ but you know maybe in texas. We could do more dinner appointments. But that’s just not gonna work here. So what does that look like. And i think right now during a pandemic with church. That’s mainly shutdown work councils or come together and they okay. Yeah we had that vision. That i did. We want to bring people in christ but the skill set of going past ads saying okay now we have an application of how to do that is really sometimes difficult in my on the right track. You’re absolutely you know. Sometimes we talk about things that are occurring at fifty thousand feet. And how do we bring them. Down to five hundred and five my state president when i was a bishop stan ellis now a general authority emeritus. He was very clear about saying general authorities. We give general. Information at bets are calling general authority. It’s up to you now. As bishops stake presidents mission presence home hogtied or ministering brothers and sisters to do the specifics take these general principles and ideas and apply them. That’s what i’ve tried to do in the book what they don’t teach you at the mdc. I think that’s what warren councils relief society presidencies elders corn presidents. These are all with today. We have limited ability for personal contact wets the substitute and sometimes people feel like. I just can’t be as personal when you’re teaching virtually or teaching remotely. Well take a step back. We’ve listened to general conference virtually at remotely most of us most of our hinds and yet we’re still inspired so it’s not that technology is getting in the way it’s our own mindset that’s filtering and blocking us sometimes from being effective in learning through means are available. That’s the telephone it’s zoom. It’s some kind of socially distant personal contact. I have a friend in mountain rain travis. Who told me yesterday. One of the things they’re released society is doing is having ministering drive bys so they’ll have the elders corum presidency or the society presidency phone people in a block and say we’re going to be walking by your neighborhood or driving by your neighborhood to this day at six o’clock. Can you come out on the front porch. And we’ll just will visit we’ll talk. Maybe we’ll have cookies but it’s a way of having a personal contact. That’s socially distant in our own ward here in saint george. We’ve been trying to go beyond small talk. We have a lot of older people in our word and many of them are isolated and lonely. They don’t want somebody to just call and say how are you doing. They wanna have a meaningful conversation. I read an article of new york times of a recent study. That said most people want to do something beyond small talk is just breaking the ice to get there. That’s the challenge. If somehow we can figure out how to get through that initial barrier. You know it’s like the flood gates so but yeah until that happens Daughter wants to be weird. It was yesterday the raw big. We don’t have experience with. It’s that initial effort. That seems overwhelming. Yeah and that’s where it. When she passed that’s the true connection is formed. Brian is beautiful. So i wanna go back to you know. You mentioned your sick president. Who was later. General thirty day kazoo. This dynamic plays a role in influencing how we do some design thinking or process. Some think outside the box because and general theory is they have no possible job. You know i. I’ve been in a stake. Presidency remember that visiting authorities coming. And you know it’s sort of intimidating at times in their story kind of feel like Even though they don’t have a clipboard and making notes you kind of feel like they’re sort of walking around and things off right and they might say just as comment they didn’t think twice about Passing a new. You know like oh you should maybe look at this and that and suddenly became the becomes the steak you know just because they said it. Because i think we’re in a leadership culture. Which isn’t a bad thing where who wanna do what the brother wants to do. You want to follow the handbooks. Do these things and so has sort. Sometimes halts that creative thinking when we think i don’t know. Can we do that. Can we do a dry by thing you know. Can we get creative in these ways or it in especially missionaries there a tough spot where it may be getting more creative because before they had a pretty good structure of what a missionary does right so any thoughts on getting past that create a barrier.

00:15:15 – 00:20:00

That sometimes is a false barrier. And i think at telling the stories about when somebody did something unusual or creative and that it worked out well is really helpful and i have to go in that regard. Cool one is how come we all are able to now enjoy air conditioning. In our church buildings it started in one thousand nine hundred fifty the very first chapel that ever had air conditioning in the church of jesus christ of latter day saints in new orleans. Louisiana and climb. Larson was the state president. Climb larson’s ray good friend. I lived in new orleans. He was in our award and he worked for talk airlines and was building this chapel and of course the brethren in salt lake were will. Why did he central air conditioning. A said have you ever been to orleans in the summer and apparently nobody on the building committee at that point had and they initially rejected the request for central air conditioning. So clive went out and got i- contractor’s license and decided he was gonna fund it build it put it in funded himself dill leader. He got a call from one of the brethren salt lake. They later heard about it said prisoners. We many things for you but this is not one of them. Your request approved on ice nice. A second Example elder gay told this story Elder robert gay. The first of the seven presidents of the seventy in a ghana west africa regional conference and he was then emission president in ghana and then elder Dorf visited ghana and as they were going around looking at some of the church’s elder door noticed that there were basketball goals in cori- alongside many of them kind of outside the building not in the cultural hall and elder door said to elder gay. The hands play a lot of basketball in generally finance or not real tall. And he sent me no exact. I don’t think they do you know they play football soccer a whole lot more but not a lot of basketball. Well how come we have these basketball courts. An elder day said well. It’s part of the standard plan to win shelter nor said hillary gate then again president. Gay do we always need to follow the standard plan. And then they’ll her gay went on to say in his talk. I’m not talking about gospel. Principles talking about their applications any use that story as an example for we need the sometimes. Reach out a customized. We need to figure out what it takes in this particular ward or branch or area and not always followed the standard plan dealing. Those stories are helpful. They give us all some courage to try new things all within a context. Of course i’m not talking about going outside established boundaries or going outside fundamental principles described in the handbook but the kinds of things that the brethren are telling us to focus on people not programs to listen to the spirit of the lord customize or individual people in individual circumstances and telling stories about when our leaders did that. I think is helpful. Ads really helpful. So i know there’s a lot of leaders you know i think we’re well into this pandemic in this shutdown were sort of used Many have gotten used to the word council zoom meetings and that type of thing help us understand the design thinking principles or or if you’re to mentor era of bishop were were council on how to effectively start to process. You know figure out some applications. You mentioned the court finding those core competencies of the or that the considering the demographics and all these things were we begin so that we can effectively did some applications that are actually blessing. Our members moving towards our original visions. Yeah so design. Thinking was developed at stanford university. It’s a focus on problem solving and being able to figure out how to solve problems together. The the way that we problem solve makes a huge difference. It starts with empathy and being able to empathize comes about with gathering.

00:20:00 – 00:25:00

Good information in the church. We sometimes do surveys on a broad scale you know. There’s there’s an enormous research department in salt lake but not always on a smaller scale. So as a for instance. One of the ways to empathize is around teaching and virtual teaching right now at the back of teaching in the saviors away that the church produce two years ago there is a self assessment questionnaire one of the things that i did in trying to promote better. Teaching it in my local award was asked all of the teachers to put. What do you think are the these roughly twenty twenty-five topical areas that you’re really good at and water free things of those twenty twenty five and three things that you feel like you could improve you do better at and we then compiled it at a gin on ward level and said all right what are these are areas of emphasis that we need to ourselves. Train ourselves him and who can help us the most well people who say that they’re good at it. Let’s look at what they say. They’re good at and leverage their personal experience. sometimes self-identification isn’t always the best way but through this prioritization. We’re able to see as award where we thought we needed. Some help virtual teaching where we thought we had some skills and consequently used that are kind of go by a second approach is part of design thinking is to idiot and sometimes that’s brainstorming but it’s brainstorming with some research faces a having done some of your own data gathering like this little survey that we did around virtual teaching and teaching skills to be able to brainstorm. Where do we go with it. A third step than comes to some kind of prototype or figure out. How can we create something new and then figure out whether it works. It’s one thing to say. I wanna connect better through virtual teaching. I wanna be able to use the audio visual arts of virtual teaching us chat rooms as part of its another to come up with ways of making that really interactive and good. Moving on from prototyping is then measuring. Somehow your success. What really is working. What isn’t and that. Willingness to be objective about i at. Something’s worked better than others. Let’s figure out what does and then the last step of this design thinking processes to experiment and keep improving focus on continuous improvement. The closes the low and you go back to them more empathy gathering information and repeating the process. Yeah and that’s great grease. This is sort of aging your your council meetings forward right because you know i think if we have you know let’s go back to the official empathizing just gathering data. We have a strong tradition in our church in our leadership tradition to rely on inspiration and we started. See inspiration as okay. We go into this room and we pray we sit there with maybe pass might is around then. This idea will come and move forward with their right sure that happens. I’ve experienced it in my own experience but we also have to. You know there’s nothing wrong with going out getting more information but it was the old saying that many journals Information leads to inspiration right like like going out in having a formal way of gathering information. And i know right now words you know. There are several months into this pandemic that i they tried some fun things with zoom and doing zoom sunday school. And this and that. And maybe it’s just sorta stale in. They’re not sure what to do. Other than continue the status quo but to step back and say what questions could we ask. The general body of the word you know. Easy tools is google forms as wonders. You could google and find others. But they’re simple as a sending out a survey or even you know what a great i just thinking of sending out there ministering brothers or sisters and say hey you need to go find your values asking these three questions the report back you know. Whatever it is gathering information is sounds like stepped. It’s easily missed but could really alone be be a game changer. Yeah it comes if you will. Its own intervention. Because you’re then able to not only show that you’re interested improving improving. But you have some some solid information behind it to demonstrate. Here’s where we ought to be going.

00:25:00 – 00:30:06

Surveys can be helpful. I think they’re often overused their little impersonal. And so what. A great way of using ministering brothers administering sisters to have a few standard questions. That’s the key and some well recorded responses it allows a discussion at its own. Level between the ministering brother and sister with the family but it also then allows award or a quorum or exhilarate to say. Here’s some things that looks like. We can really make a difference if we do things a little differently. It’s all about improvement in order to improve at some level. You have to say we could be better. It doesn’t mean you have to say we’re not doing well but yet you willing to say okay. I’m going to go from where i am. To some higher level or some higher plane president monson used to say about bishops. They need to stand on higher around so they can lift others up. While in the same way a leader in a corum or an auxiliary or a teacher in a sunday school class needs to be able to know specifically where to lift to a higher ground. Where is that higher ground that we ought to be shooting for not in a general kind of way. Kind of what makes a difference for us in our water core. I think we’re really good in the church about doing that. For ten pro needs if a family someone has lost a job. Or if there’s a a need for food some kind of temporary relief. We’re pretty good in the church at identifying that and figuring out how to marshal the necessary resources welfare resources self reliance resources to address it. We’re not quite as good in some other areas that are less well-defined. Being able to be helpful to somebody who’s isolated and and and really unsure or a teenager who feels like the church isn’t as relevant in their life. Maybe it was once before and it’s those kind of more personal more one to one. Interactions that become diff- more difficult during the pandemic but are still available to us. So i visit with a couple of teenagers regularly in our work some of whom they honestly they just humor me. I know their parents their situation others. We’re we’re into. Hey their disappointment in not being able to have sports and athletics in the way that it that used to occur and they’ve got somebody that they can complain to who’s not gonna say at just backup. Who’s who’s willing to empathize a little bit and understand disappointment. And i think that’s available for all of us during these times. Yeah that’s really helpful. And i guess least my question immunex questions ours like when you started to gather information. How do you know you’re getting the right information. Like are there specific questions. Ask like like you said. Maybe a thermal survey isn’t the best. But then how do you know. You’re you’re seeking for the right information. Dan bringing it together in a. You know a work council setting like do we invite more people do we. Just look at the spreadsheet of the survey data. I mean how do we make sure. We’re getting the data that we’re looking for what we do with it was. We have yeah. So mildest son is spreadsheet. Grew and he would say it’s always a spreadsheet whatever the question. The answer is a spreadsheet nice not quite as driven in that regard. Sometimes it takes a little trial in hair. Curtis it’s not always obvious the good news is we have some basic gospel principle. So it’s not like anything goes it is all right. We have a structure here of gospel. Principles that help give us some guides that put some parameters and constraints some borders on. We also have some basic programs that we know are effective ranging from young women and young men to ministering. Now how do we maximize though. How do we figure out what works. And what doesn’t in these particular times and easy example really is virtual teaching. Because everybody’s doing it and it’s brand new so that’s one that you could say. Hey any ward or core. Hillary would benefit from better understanding. What does it take to be effective from a virtual teach you how to get beyond the superficial in more substantive discussions and the good news is. There’s a fair amount of research. That’s been done on virtual teaching in schools and universities and colleges as well as in high schools just recently but in the past several years online training.

00:30:06 – 00:35:03

There are some go buys that can be extracted by a fairly simple search to say all right. Here’s a few things that look like we ought to be doing. And here’s some things that are interesting that we might consider. Let’s have a discussion with word. Members exhilarating remembers core members about that though. Easy answer on what kinda questions to be asked. Is the ask questions that start with. what or how. What and how are descriptive questions. They allow somebody to explain an answer and they’re not leading or rhetorical so avoiding the other. Who at win. where why ho. Much focusing on what and how enables you to more likely. Get good information that you can then utilize the second kind of thing after that gathered is to then look for themes are some common themes that seem to emerge without taking on too many different kinds of things. Being able to prioritize is sometimes tough for us because we want to gather everybody at the same time and not have any either organization or person left out but frankly that prioritization is what enables real progress without doing it. you know. we’re all things to all people. Then i think third it is bringing to a corn presidency or award council and having them seek that as a place of revelation elder bandar likes to say he would like to get rid of the word meeting. When it comes to work council beatty thinks meeting is the wrong word to be banished. It makes us to businesslike to efficiency oriented he would use instead or counsel as a place of revelation that we ought to seek revelation and a good example of that from the doctrine. Covenants is often repeated story of how we received the word of wisdom. Ms smith came to the prophet. Said things have got to change. I don’t know how they’re working out for you man but for me. This is a mass. Everybody’s smokin enters using spitoons. And sometimes they’re hitting and sometimes they’re missing so you know for the prophets point of view and the brethren that time. They were all fat dumb and happy. Everything was working out fine only from amazon point of view but she said there’s a problem here and so the prophet had to reconcile that and he reconciled that problem that was presented to him by his wife by then going to the lord and saying. Help me with this again. What can be done here. I think that’s a good analog. You know sometimes people are going to have different perspectives. The brethren in this example had a different perspective than emma. Ama- was the one who then brought up problem to the prophet and the prophet side. Inspiration i think orange councils can do the same thing. Recognize the difference of opinion. That’s one to gather good accurate information. I mean emma was giving reports. Emma was not being judgmental. She was simply saying. Let me tell you what’s really happening here that you may not be aware of the prophet then took that good accurate information went to the lord and sought his his guidance. Counselors can do the same thing. Presidencies can do the same thing now. And that’s i love the idea of the principle of just seeking out different perspectives whether they’re right or wrong you’re still valid because there’s someone perspective and they may have a perspective that you that you’re not seeing right. And so as a word or leadership group moves in line to to collect information there. They should be asking repertoire. Perspectives are a missing in. Who has that perspective. The maybe we could go talk to. Do you have any examples made from your mission or elsewhere as far as this process like looks like in the way information came to the surface. Anything like that. I have a couple of different examples in different kind of contexts So one of the examples. That have is when i was a mission president in in ghana. I had to districts that reporting to me so in that case you know mission. President is kind of like a stake president and i met with brethren to ask them at one point in a meeting with not only the district presidencies of the two districts but the branch president says. Well they were relatively close to each other and has us i. I had a set of questions that i ask them to respond to that.

00:35:03 – 00:40:00

Were all around. What do you think is the biggest need that we have in our district. And what should we do about. The response came back a cut through the chase. What we really need is a hospital here. I was like hospital now is true. Is this the african bush. That was not the answer. I was expecting so i said there’s gotta be something here. I don’t know that we’re going to be able to build a hospital. So i spent some time going over with the to district presidencies some ward and andbranch sorry branch statistics and what jumped out at all of us was the high number of people who are receiving financial assistance on a fairly regular basis. Fast offering assistance and some of them were because they had high medical bills. So there isn’t the same health in west africans there is year. I said okay now. I understand why they’re saying build a hospital because they’re seeing these families with high medical bills who are receiving fast offering assistance on a regular basis. I said what have been stead of a hospital. We did something that would help. Members be more self sufficient. More self reliant especially some of these members who are regularly receiving fast offering assistance. It took a little while but eventually we were able to receive some funding from what’s called member assisted programs from the church and we started families with chicken farms. Thirty families received fifty laying hands. We had a process it’s called micro franchising another topic for another podcast. Events knew it as the same as taco bell or burger king. These families weren’t expected to do everything we had a kind of a structure. We bought the chicks. We raise the chicks to alang hands. We had them go through a training program and these thirty families were able to have a whole different source of income than they had ever had before laying. Hands sell the eggs after two years when i left the ghana twenty. Two of those thirty families were self sufficient. They no longer receiving financial assistance. They’re able to pay off many of them bills that had lingered for years so what started from problem definition. What should we do. Let’s build a hospital evolved with better data gathering. Let’s look at our statistics to see if there’s things that emerged to us while looking at a number of elders attendants sacrament meeting who’s receiving welfare assistance with only as we looked at array of data this kind of jump out at us. And then i tion that was that addressed what was below the surface of some of these branch presidents. Hey we know we have. These families who because of medical bills are receiving financial assistance. We turned the tables and made themselves sufficient. Let me get a second example. I often had so before. I was a mission president in ghana. I work for exxon mobil. Five years in nigeria. So i was fairly familiar with west africa. I had a number of visiting authorities. Who as they came either to nigeria. Or i served in the state presidency oregon out say west. Africa is unique in that. There are so many more men being baptized than women film. Replacing the church where we’re baptizing a lot more males than females. Why is that you know. It’s like tell us how you so successful. In baptizing men young men and older men and having them be active in the church so that we can learn from it and transported these ideas elsewhere. I said well. Actually the success is really a failure. Because we’re not baptizing women because they can’t read in west africa by and large you have to pass an entrance exam in order to be able to get into high school and families can’t afford to send very many of their children to high school which is not paid for by the government. Typically you have to pay tuition to go to high school and so man learn how to read.

00:40:01 – 00:45:01

Women often don’t despite government slogans. So as i said you know this is really a problem. The problem is not successful bad days. The problem is results on a successful with women because they can’t read and you know in our church if you can’t read where always emphasizing read the scriptures read the manuals. Were were teaching. Were very dependent on literacy. So as in both bamako s among kasese district’s we first of all gathered information on on how high was the percentage of active women who couldn’t read enormously high above in the range of sixty percent. The second kind of thing we said is if we’re really going to have women empowered in relief society young women. What do we need to do. What specifically is going to help us the most and a group. We decided the single biggest thing we could do is literacy training. I’ve eventually wrote an article for the end sign. Called words can change our world about how literacy enormously benefits not only the individual members but the structure of the church in west africa because now women who can read. Don’t have to rely on somebody else to tell them. What’s in a manual or describe a class or teach their own children. The benefits of reading are mainly all would probably say probably obvious but seeing it as fundamental first of all to who’s attracted to the church and we did invite investigators to participate in swell. Our literacy training was unique in that we tried to address cultural issues as well as language factors who didn’t just teach reading these also became support groups in essence. And so i think in those two cases kurt you can see where gathering information made a difference not only in defining a problem because originally i the problem definition was people have high medical bills and their solution was get a hospital or you guys are so successful in west africa in baptize man. What can we learn from and instead flipping each of those by saying gathering good information by assessing collectively and collaboratively and coming up with a solution that nobody had envisioned at the beginning made us tremendously more successful. Man that is. That’s really helpful. The really good stuff. Let’s move on the next step as far as any tips as far as the the idea. It’s step as far as brainstorming. Now you have all this information and your men sort of energizing as counselor in college. I didn’t even know this was a problem. That really makes sense now and any tips on what to do with brainstorm. You’re starting to come up with ideas of how to move forward in james some things or causing new direction. Brainstorming spent around for a long time. The best brainstorming does transfer into idee has both facilitator. that’s guiding it in a direction and some sideboards so it’s not sometimes we say brainstorm. Well everything goes. Everything’s on the table and you know that’s good at a certain level. The very broad level you need to cast your net wide before you start to two then no and figure out what might be a usable solution. A specific idea that helps a lot in brainstorming. Is all around how you define the problem. So the term is called. Reframing how do i get a different frame of reference how would somebody else. Who’s not familiar with this. Look at it in a different way. How the usual things that we think of suddenly get a little turned on their heads. I like this example is from tom. Sawyer it’s when his amp. Paulie ask tom. Go whitewash offense and this time. Tom couldn’t get out of it so he’s out there with his buckets in his brush and his mark twain writes the story. Here comes down the street. Ben is frenemy. Who he’s the last person liked to see knowing that ban is going to give him a hard time and predictably been does. Hey tom you’re going to have to work. You have to whitewash the spans ongoing off down fish. Tom ignores it. Bend says a little louder.

00:45:01 – 00:50:05

Hey tom your have to work. I’m gonna go off fishing too bad. We can’t go with me. It’s a beautiful day and tom. As mark twain writes lazily using his brush. And says what do you mean work. This isn’t work. It’s not every day that a boy gets a chance to whitewash offense and then as the story goes ben says what i think. You’re right give me a chance to whitewash the fence now and you know we’re familiar with the story. Were ben is now this point. Pay tom in order to whitewash the fence. In order to be able to have this unique experience. That avoid doesn’t get a chance to do every day. Now sometimes people say oh yeah. That’s just a story about tom manipulating things. I don’t think so. He defined work as play and other people accepted that definition. I like it. When elder anderson neil anderson a couple of years ago about a missionary that he met and the missionary said we ought to stop using the word missionary. Work this’s missionary fun. My middle son. And i have used that phrase when when l. anderson spoke at a conference in us that my my phone lit up ross said hey copyright using mr fund we’ve been using texas houston mission and he while serving his mission for years. We have this connotation gonna go back to the story about what constitutes work and when tom defined an activity differently as play others not only ban but others accepted that definition it. It’s it’s important in brainstorming. Kurt how you define a problem. And so this reframing is how can i get a different point of view. How would somebody who is from another part of the world or not a member of the church. or what a microbiologist. How they approach this problem definition and getting different problem definitions matter enormously just as my example of when in west africa they jumped so quickly to a hospital as a solution. Sometimes we in fact a. There’s a clever phrase that the group is called synetix. They’re out of boston. They teach problem solving they. They use the phrase to often problem. Solving is a solution in search of a problem. We already have our answer or just looking for somebody who will accept it. As opposed to starting from a clean sheet of paper gathering information and then saying what does this mean to us from a variety of different perspectives. Yeah so that refraining principle so it will you gala this this information and then you’re Refraining it depend- depending on what perspectives. During the reu or is. I don’t make that connection yet. Yeah so it’s it’s what are different ways of defining. This problem are there. Are there others so again. At an another example as a company in houston we once moved into old building houston industries. The building had a really slow elevator. So many but so slow. People were complaining about it all the time and so a small group got together to brainstorm. What do we do about it too. Many complaints was the driver. The brainstorming turned into solutions instead of trying to understand so somebody said a we down block the stairs but this is houston in the middle of the summer. People are gonna take the stairs. Somebody else said we need to put a another elevator outside the building peachtree atlanta. That’s pretty expensive yet. A third person will. Let’s have some high speed generators as the elevators. Move faster again pretty expensive. Finally somebody in the room said you know. We’re defining the problem as slow elevators. What if instead we define the problem as impatient people. Would we come up with different ideas. Would we brainstorm things differently. Yeah gen okay. And they did eventually. Company put full length mirrors on every floor next to the elevator and people became so enamoured. You know noticing themselves and combing their hair or straightening their tie.

00:50:06 – 00:55:00

Those few seconds where they were distracted caused them to somehow. The elevators were faster. The complaints went almost zero. Because there was something that took people’s minds off for the elevator. It’s how defining a problem differently. Reframing getting different frame of reference can change your solution in the same way that i think Elder uc door was saying to then president game. Do we always have to follow the standard procedure in. There was a sense that we’re putting in basketball courts gone ghana because that’s what we do at other places and suddenly that changed once there was freedom to really consider other options and a catalyst and encouragement to do so now out an award or branch or local level. I think the example of reverse dinner appointments is a way of saying. What can we do differently to to serve others. another there’s a lot of missionaries who are struggling right now with how to do contacting and what’s the best way to do it in a virtual world and and i am too often we start with will let let’s our message out there. Let’s put as many places we can. What the church is doing. And and what it’s all about. Factually president oaks. Who said sometimes people are less interested in our doctrine did they are in the fruits so rather than starting my talking about the doctrine maybe rather talk more about the fruits and then he went on to say something to defect of that applied their interests so instead of doctrine fruits interest as reverse the process interest fruits its doctrine and some missionaries are doing that by. Here’s a specific example. A missionary sister serving in the washington state area is a musician jazz musician and she went on jazz websites in in her area. Found some that were in this city in which she lived and started talking about. Hey i’m a played jazz both the clarinet and piano. And i’m here is a missionary but spared time and you know what he is doing. Tell me the kind of things you’re doing. And she started conversations much the same way that we might do or if we were talking to somebody only sees doing online with people who she knows are already interested in jazz because they’re part of a jazz website. She’s not bringing up jazz digest. Anybody she’s bringing it up to people who already have that affinity and as a result of several those conversations. She’s teaching people. Some of whom are participating in zoom. Church is happening in other places as well. A grandson whose cross country runner and Really likes running. And he’s try and teaches spanish east trying to do the same kind of thing with running groups with spanish language groups in the misson where he served. It’s those kinds of ways of applying pragmatically some general principles. Maybe aren’t common that we don’t always approach In the same kind of way. Yeah so it sounds like in this. The eight stages that Before you start brainstorming about solutions you have to sort of brainstorm. Maybe some reframing how we see this different what if it look this way is right now. I’m hearing a lot. You know as i talked with different leaders around the world. There’s they’re really nervous about apathy. You know the church. Everybody’s done home church for so long and the word about this. You know them coming back to church right and there’s obviously some assumptions. Maybe they’re making their salary. Reframe that to maybe. There’s a different way that maybe that’s not the problem. Maybe there’s something else going on here. And so is that again. I have to analyze all the different perspectives or refrain. That you could do around the what you think is the problem. The more you do it the better. No it’s the old seven blind man of siam What’s this elephant while the elephants like trunk of a tree. Because that’s what he’s feeling or no.

00:55:00 – 01:00:25

It’s like a roach because feeling with taylor. No like a wall. Because they’re feeling the side of the elephants it’s only when groups come together with their different perspectives and try to pull information. Are you able to get a better perspective. A in this case what a problem is and what may be options for doing things differently. I think we’re all during this time of of Individual attention trying to end the pandemic trying to figure out how we make that cross connection you know what. What are the ways win where isolated that we can somehow reach across and do things differently. I’ve had two experiences Like to to share a little bit. One is in ghana in nineteen eighty eight long before i let there. It’s known as the freeze where the government essentially banned all public worship by the church in ghana and and it started out known understood why what was behind it or how long this would last at eventually lasted fourteen months. You can imagine the church. It only revelation on the priesthood was nineteen seventy eight the first two senior missionary couples. The first baptisms said gonna where late nineteen seventy eight early. Nineteen seventy nine so only ten years of formally organized churches and now the government says. You can’t meet. You can’t get together in church buildings. They were locked. You can’t get together in small groups in some cases a wonderful man. Stephen abu was put into prison. Another cases a cape coast or members were just visiting with each other. They were detained by the police for forty eight hours Thinking that they had violated it so members without the use of technology in this instance of had somehow figure out. How do we encourage each other. How do we support each other without formal meetings. And they did a a lot by visiting. Now there’s a culture of visiting on the front porch that somewhat occurs in southern parts of the. Us you know this idea will meet out on. The porch on the rocking chair will visit that. We we don’t have an. I grew up in utah and just lived in south africa by us. We don’t have that sane sort of tradition sit on the porch and whittle and talk and and figure out how we can. We can solve some of the world’s problems they do have that tradition west africa very orel. Highly verbal tradition partially because languages weren’t even written down until the last hundred years but during that fourteen month period when the church was banned most members of the church still came back once the freeze was lifted and it was because there was just a lot of individual conversations. It wasn’t anything magic in that sense it but but i think there’s something to to learn from it One of the things that members tried to do not everywhere but in places is to say okay at twelve o’clock noon everybody in your home’s let’s use that as the time. We’re going to study the book of mormon and the bible so so they had a common sort of start time in this sense of bright brothers and sisters across ghana are doing the same thing at this time. They tried to share common scriptures in him. Again it wasn’t all that well organized. It was more hit and miss more episode. But it was that sense of. We’re in this together. We’re sharing things even under the radar because we can’t meet in person. I think those are markers that we can learn from. What’s that equivalent for us today where we can’t beat in the same way but we’re still able to use technology and see each other the second example. I’d like to use his. In sierra leone. during ebola it is a very similar go by because of ebola which is highly transmittable. It’s easy to catch. And unlike the corona virus historically had a very high mortality rate government banned public meetings at various times a members of the church occasionally met in homes but more often than not had to just do things on their own and We during that period of time tried to share success stories with one.

01:00:25 – 01:05:01

Another of what seemed to be working. What are the kinds of things that somebody else is doing. The work best practices that as such a management organization connotation but it’s a nice shorthand phrase. What somebody else doing that we can learn from it. People felt really disconnected. They they long to participate in the church. there’s just no substitute for an individual contact. I ask each district president during that period to every day. Give me the name of one or two people. That i could call. I had i had unlimited minutes in people who were west africa. They don’t like to call out because it costs the money on their phone but for me it was no big deal so i tried to call every day. One or two people had the names were given to me by the district president and just visit. I always read a scripture going back to small talk. I think people want something deeper than small talk. It just doesn’t cut it. And so it was easy for me to have a scripture share with them and then relate some thing that somebody else had told me in a different bow or freetown a different part of the country. Those two things story spread people. Were hey oughta get on this. Call line here. What’s going on and the in formality of sharing best practices sharing a gospel message. And i’m gonna say at some level concern from someone who was outside the country in this case all made a big difference. Yeah that’s really helpful so deadening about this for the next step. Once you’ve got you have a plan together. You have a plan together. And you’re ready to move forward with it in ’cause this the prototyping steps of lake testing step like you have some ideas us. Go see what works. And what doesn’t and then you’re obviously measuring the results then experimenting again or readjusting in annotating the problem yet so any tips on how that stank is a lot of times it can feel like he going back to our tradition in the church. You know the bishop comes out with this plan. And this thing we’re going to do this initiative the the program whatever it is and As a work. But maybe they don’t address it Fades away right who are or are always changing. What they’re doing and people are getting confused right so any tips on this process of actually applying a plan. That you’ve come up with gifts so it is about testing and experimenting and we like to quote in alma experiment with the word Alma also talks about experiment with his goodness. I think if there’s a willingness to experiment it makes a difference and the key to course any good experiment is to be a good observer and to accurately try to measure its success. Otherwise i’ll all you’re doing is sharing anecdotes and doesn’t have that. Be the rigor of the scientific method. But this idea of being willing to experiment to a mindset of experimentation. I think makes a big difference in ghana. I love proverbs. I think it’s a great insight into a language or a country of there’s a proverb in a local african language called tree. Goes something like this. Oughta do awada. That’s tree he and it means. A bird has to leave the nest. In order to catch a worm. This idea of leave your comfort zone of get outside the sort of normal and experiment and the test and to try and i do think as you described. Sometimes our initiatives are are sort of pulses. We we send out a calls. He was out another bolts willing to work. Either let’s keep going as opposed to trying to say all right.

01:05:01 – 01:10:04

What is it. That really seemed to work here. In what did you know. Where can we take grains of things Little nuggets at apply. It somewhere else. And how do we really know what’s working. What’s not without simply relying on anecdote to henry nash. Smith said there’s only two important questions live the first is. How do you know the second is. So what if we’re if we’re willing to be patient with the question. How do you know and see that as an invitation to learn not just a way of saying we were successful or not successful sometimes where we’re way too eager to make sure that everything goes right. We may polish the answer rather than trying to say. This part worked better than this other. Part of let’s keep what seemed to work and get rid of what didn’t and keep going and an experiment again. I think that willingness to to do so that makes a difference and ultimately my guess is that’s how we have the current block schedule. You know at one point in time. Different wards around the. Us experimented with a three hour block schedule in a two hour block schedule and as a result of that. We’re now in a different framework all the same gospel principles but a different delivery mechanism than we’ve had in the past well kind of what. The pandemic is forcing us to do as well as look at how with zoom with our home Centered church supported teaching. How all that works. And and make adjustments. There have been times when the church has offered up a program or an emphasis shadow. Leadership for youth comes to mind that you’d say well that didn’t work quite the way we thought it was going to work a description about facilitators in teaching. Saviors way. I think the sense was able we emphasize too much discussion under the siltation and not enough destruction and making sure that we’re describing the doctrines. These adjustments are natural normal. And it’s the art of of discovery and that willingness to to experiment to say what’s working and what’s not to assess it together without feeling. An obligation of everything has to be perfect. Everything has to go right. We could be much. More objective allows an organization a branch at word council to keep at rating. Yeah and what i love about. This model present is that i think just by engaging with this model members of your warder or the organization leading are gonna see like other gathering information and another with ideas tried some different things right and sometimes i feel like You know these. These leadership processes can be very spiritual experiences in exciting. And then we we assume that these are just. These aren’t just ideas that we came up with these are actually sanctioned by god and we will now you know deliver them using language like we trade about this week we feel like this is the best way to go and no one. Doesn’t you come back and say actually we prayed about it and this other ways away to go members are starting to think. look at. What exactly is going on by missouri’s right. Then it gets harder to get behind we need. You framed it that way. But when it’s like okay the workhouse got together. We prayed about like we really feel like this might work. It might not. Let’s we all come together and see if we can have a go at this. See if it makes a difference in. We’re going to reassess rule importantly we get your feedback through this. We’re going to be constantly agreed assessing ruling. Make this process move forward right. I guess it’s all about framing in that in that stage as well. Yeah and the brethren are telling us we have ultimate flexibility around those kind of things. Yeah we all know where we’re going understand the church principles if we’re really schooled in the handbook. Then it gives us this ability to be created to to know where we can push and where we can pull and the constraints that also there for our protection. So there’s a there’s a bridge in new orleans. It’s called the huey. Long bridge may built the bridge from each side of the river bridge in new orleans across the mississippi river.

01:10:04 – 01:15:01

They built the bridge from two different sides. Don’t quite a line in the middle when you get to the middle you have zag sides when they built them. Separately didn’t quite mesh sometimes. Because we’re we’re all working together but from different points of view. They’re going to be these mesh points. They’re going to need some adjustment at the top and from my point of view. That’s all good yet. Still bridge right. It’s still works. That’s it is still works. People still use those built nineteen thirty nine. The bridge is still there today along the bridge. There’s also importantly. I think for any kind of bridge. There’s guardrails no one would go on a bridge if there were no guardrails even if it were wider it would just be too intimidating. The good news is the handbook gives us those guardrails. It says here’s the kind of things you drive across the bridge from new orleans to west wego good. Give you these guardrails know. Sometimes you’re going to be a few mesh points you’re gonna have to make some adjustments. Stay within the lanes recognized. Nobody ever hits the guardrails their their psychological as much as they are physical but they give us the ability to pursue goals interest. In this case drive across the bridge that we might otherwise be reluctant to do so. Handbook helps us gives us guidance. The general principles are time again. The general authorities the local specifics that apply to us our award. Our branch arcora. We have all the encouragement that we can imagine. Go and do good in our area. Applying those principles and to creatively come up with new ideas at Before wrapped up by bennie. One or two more questions but anything we missed it you hit on before we wrap up. I think this has been awesome. Really informative and helpful but anything that you are. Make sure we hit on for your app. I don’t think i would say during this time of pandemic people are looking for in a. What’s the new normal. What’s what’s going to happen after words f- for me. This is a time of as well of saying. What are we learning about ourselves that we can take with us that we don’t just see this as a blip on the curve and suddenly things are going to go back to the way they were but instead we say all right what. What can we learn from what’s happened here that we make sure we apply president outdoor dorville. Who dorf has emphasized that around missionary service that you know some of the things. We’re doing with electronic proselytizing. We should be doing all the way all along. And after the pandemic we’re gonna keep doing now. He hasn’t articulated. Here’s a laundry list of what those things are. It’s more of a direction. I love that that sense of. Here’s some things that we’re going to take with us. I think there’s plenty of opportunities for us to do that too i. It’s all about personal connections. No when the savior appeared on the american continent people at zara. Hamlet they came up one by one and it was that one by one attention. I think there’s about a half a dozen times in the book of mormon a term while by one is use that individuality is what it’s all about. There’s no substitute at and that can be done very well. Using social distance using zoom using phone calls if we also see those technology vices as a way of getting past ordinary superficial discussions finding out. What people’s interests are you know. There’s a saying going around. Everybody has a story. And it’ll break your heart if you knew all of what that story was about somehow in the church we are all desirous of understanding those stories and healing broken hearts ultimately.

01:15:01 – 01:20:00

That’s what the atonement does for us. As saviors on mount zion. We can be instruments. In the lord’s hands if we will find a way to get past the superficialities and engage on a level that allows people to be vulnerable to know that. We’re going to respect the trust that they place in a us and that by doing so we can go marching arm in arm together homeward to our heavenly father. I love that love that. Where would you send people assume the any online bookstore will have your your materials but If people wanna know more about your your writings in more bet you send him yet. So cedar for is publishing. What they don’t teach you at the mtc march night there pre publication orders that you can already placed by going to seaports website and request a preorder copy of the book right now. Hopefully once it’s published in an available it’ll be a bookstores throughout the inter mountain west and available online as well awesome. I’m excited to dive in and read it. Not going ahead for you now as you reflect on your time as a leader in the restored gospel was being a leader. Helped you become a better follower of jesus. Christ you have a really good question. Any good leader is also a good follower in any organization. There’s no one who’s not a follower even the ceo of an organization or the prophet in the church of jesus christ of latter day saints. We’re obviously followers of the savior. What being a follower means is sometimes putting aside your own personal interests of putting aside some things that as we might do individually if it was a if we were in a different role of we were in a flipped role and instead give our best efforts to who’s ever in charge at gandhi had a theory about leadership and he described it as similar to being the bus driver. He said if you get on a bus. Let’s say you’re in salt lake city. You wanna go to chicago as long as you’re on. The the driver is heading. Sort of northeast. Everybody’s okay. If suddenly the driver says snow were heading south. They’re either going to get off the bus or they’re going to throw the driver off the bus so his perspective was yeah. Any good leader is very much in tune with where the followers are and the followers and the leader are almost in a symbiotic relationship. It’s not one person being in charge. And everybody else like lemmings falling behind but it’s instead wherein this together we’re moving forward together in a common way and i think that metaphor that gandhi had is is a useful one for all of us. This church prospered in the early days of youth on eighteen forties fifties and sixties because people were willing in the case of saint. George when free hundred names were out from the pulpit to go. South bay went south and formed the mission and that willingness to follow the prophet to say. Okay i’m i might prefer to stay here. We’re already have a farm and orchard. But i’m gonna go. They’re do that. Also is a church prospered. Because of communitarian effort zion central mercantile corporation was a cooperative You and i should. At one point was a cooperative. Cooperative spirit of the church in the early west is what allowed growth and sustainability. I think today that same sense of we’re in this together where followers and leaders are two sides of the same calling where in a symbiotic relationship and as we give up some of our own ego when we’re not in charge and say okay. This is good enough. I’m gonna be on the path. I’m gonna help make whatever a leader might identify as solution. I’m going to make it work by my effort by my energy bye-bye support to extend we all do that. The church that concludes my interview with norm hill. Bless his heart. Thank you norm. Really appreciate the thought that the the stories those remarkable stories. I could listen to those all day. i think.

01:20:00 – 01:22:36

Normally don’t podcast all in favor right just telling different stories experienced over the years it was really a treat to just sit and learn from him and you know i was taking notes. I hope you check out the show notes for various you know the main ideas may go back review so these sections and and now you have a model may be taken to your ward council your eldest corporate Presidency and say okay. How are we going to go through this. How can we collect ideas information and then served ideas. Can we generate. How can you reframe the problem. Make people discover that the problem we think is the problem. Isn’t the problem right. So just really hard hitting helpful information So thank you for doing and you know. I feel like we’ve we hit. We’ve had some great content for everyone from dan. Duckworth to deanna murphy. Now to norm hill of people who’ve really given you some ideas as far as how to better energize your leadership efforts in the midst of a unique time of shutdown or a a halfway shutdown wherever it is however it is. You’re expected leadership efforts right now. Who else should we talk to. Or what other questions do you have. What are their holdups. Hurdles are facing cinema way leading saints dot org slash contact and We may not have the perfect person to interview but at least gives us an idea of where we can go and focus on necks. And we’ll do the legwork and find another person to bring on And you know about it. And hopefully we’re not over saturating you with content around this topic but the reality is any episode in the history of leading saves can help you at a time like this because we always try to stay. Try to stay principle based and those principles can be applied to whatever situation. So give us your feedback with here and remind you once again to text. The word lead to four seven. Four seven four seven in order to subscribe to the leading saints weekly newsletter it k- must result of a position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the god of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of jesus christ and when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living church on the face of the earth immediately put in a position of loneliness loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor runaway and a which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.

In this solo podcast, Kurt talks about the history and purposes of Leading Saints, answers questions, and shares where we are going from here.

Highlights

01:30 Remembering David Farnsworth
04:30 How Leading Saints came to be
09:00 What Leading Saints seeks to do: Four Pillars of Leading Saints

1. 10:00 Connect leaders
2. 10:50 Enhance leadership ability through learning opportunities
3. 12:25 Present leadership scholarship, connecting leaders to experts and scholars
4. 13:30 Celebrate divine guidance

14:50 A community of leaders
15:35 Questions from social media
16:15 What about Leading Saints in Spanish?
17:45 What’s your approach to figuring out what home-centered church-supported means?
20:00 How can Leading Saints stay relevant in a home-centered church environment?
22:20 How can we help leaders who aren’t interested in improving?
24:20 How do we adapt to changing world conditions without acting outside leaders’ guidance?
25:10 What’s on the docket for 2021? What is Leading Saints’ mission in preparing for the second coming? How much happens as exposure/business/feedback and how much happens as inspiration?
27:00 What contact has Leading Saints had with Church headquarters or authorized leadership? Have any ideas presented to Leading Saints caught the attention of General Authorities?
29:20 What about an app?
30:15 Have you thought about doing some sort of fireside/workshop/training tour?
33:00 What about retreats?
34:00 What about moderated forums where people with similar callings can ask questions and create discussions?
34:35 What about leading from the bottom up?
35:10 How do you get and schedule interviews? How do you prepare for the interviews? What techniques do you use to help the interviews flow? What are you doing behind the scenes?
38:30 Fundraising and financing the goals of Leading Saints

• Core Leaders contributing monthly/quarterly/yearly
• Virtual Summits have raised additional funds
• Larger donors

46:40 The impact we are having

• 250,000+ podcast downloads each month (that’s 830 wards and 120 stakes of leaders)
• Testimonials

54:55 Bringing every topic back to the Savior Jesus Christ because we are building His kingdom in each of our lives

Links

Donate to become a Core Leader
Contact Leading Saints with questions, suggestions, or possible donations
Register for group virtual meetings with Kurt
Becoming a Master Interviewer | An Interview With David Farnsworth
Wild at Heart in Church Leadership | An Interview with Doug Nielsen
Heart of a Woman in Relief Society

Transcript

This transcript was machine-produced. We would be grateful for help correcting errors. You can help! Simply copy/paste the transcript text into a document, make the corrections, and then copy/paste the corrected text into a comment on the page (below) and we will get the corrected text published!

00:00:03 – 00:05:09

Data dat dat dat dat dat dat da. Okay that that is at work. And this is kurt with leading saints. This the podcast. Obviously you’re on a podcast app and you press play expected my voice to come out. Now i’m the host of the leading saints. Podcast if you’re new well a welcome you in this good episode to start on if you’re new because we’re going to dive into some a lot of details related to leading saints but just a quick summary where are a nonprofit organization. Dedicated helping latter-day saints better prepared to lead and the podcast is one way we do that. We have a newsletter website leading. Saints dot org. You know there’s many people who actually have listened to the podcast for years and never actually gone to our website. I implore you go check it out leading saints dot org great content and and he just we’d love it so this is a solo episode. Just me folks. Sorry to disappoint you expert on the line no author just me but hopefully i can deliver some value and give you a a perspective on the future of leading saints. What we expect in twenty twenty. One i’m excited for it. There’s so much opportunity. So many great interviews that i already have re recorded some that. I will have recorded soon. And i’m sure remarkable individuals that i’ll meet in the future that will add to our perspective as a community at leading saints and before we get to the meat of this episode. I wanted to just give a tribute to a past guest of saints and this is how this came to be i Was a home doing the dishes. Actually that’s right. Got to do my part around here and doing the dishes on my phone. Rank picked it up and it was a sweet lady. Ed that was requesting some details about her contribution to leading saints so i went to my computer and ask for her emails. I look up Her account and look at her into her question and the email she gave me was one. I recognized it. Was the email of david farnsworth. And i said oh. Well i’ve i’ve interviewed your husband before on leading saints and if you’re not familiar with that episode you’ve got to check it out we’ll put it in the show notes but it is becoming a master interviewer and with an interview with david farnsworth and anyways she then told me that He just a few months ago passed away and my heart broke. He was such a remarkable mentor. As somebody who in this is how. I originally met david. I was I got an email one day. That just said i’ve been listening to your podcast. I can make you a better injury or let me know if you’re interested in. I was like man. I’m always open to feedback especially someone with some experience that to make me a better interviewer. I’m all game. So i responded right away before he knew it. I was on the call on the phone with david and he was walking me through giving me some advice. We we later met up. We went to a restaurant and had a long conversation. And let me tell you. This wasn’t like this was like serious. Feedback that david gave me like. It was like when you do this. Stop doing that when you do that. Don’t do that anymore. And try this and this and the other thing and now even today. I use certain tactics in my interviewing style. The david david taught me. And so i am so grateful for him the mentorship he gave me even after i interviewed him at. You know so. This obviously led to an interview with him on the podcast about interview people because obviously as leaders were called upon to interview people even after that interview i remember he called me up and he any sorta gave it to you. I mean he was always nice but he was just always direct and said this. You asked me this question and you didn’t. Gimme a time to respond to this new. You moved onto quickly right. So and i loved it. And i just said man. Thanks david just keep keep coming now. He he went on a mission with his wife to hawaii and so you know he was doing his mission thing and actually interviewed him again for the teaching saints virtual summit with haven’t checked that out definitely do so and At a great interview about asking questions during a as a teacher in class and he did a great job phenomenal job teaching that and then i kind of figured you know ill let him finish his mission and then maybe we can reconnect when he gets back and and i knew that he was probably back in every so often to have the thought of. I got to reach out to david and see how he’s doing. Maybe there’s another interview you need to do and Know then before. I knew it. The call came from his wife and notify me. They’d passed on so but Remarkable man just want to pay tribute to him grateful for all the guests and all the support all the people behind the scenes helping us move this mission for now. Let’s talk about that mission for a little bit. What it is and and a lot of people. When i meet them in person or have a casual interaction with them a lot of people ask me so how on earth did leading saint start. And i’ve shared this before. If you’ve heard the story you can skip ahead a little bit but let me quickly give that that experience so this is how it. When i came home from my mission. I started to attend a a student ward at the salt lake community college institute building in. I guess it’s technically taylorsville that it sent and It was the word that i actually met my wife in. So i tended there soon. I was called as the president now. This is my first leadership role that i ever had. I had been a district leader on my mission. But you know as a handful of companionship’s wasn’t like intense leadership by any means so being an in present this was this was a some new ground for me and it was overwhelming.

00:05:09 – 00:10:06

I had one hundred plus elders in my core. I really wanted to make a difference right. We’ve all many been there right. You get called. Do calling any wanna make a difference. You wanna you wanna see the needle move toward success. You want to see progress happen. You wanna see lives touched right so i thought well this is great. I’m gonna do it you know. I’ve seen other elders. Corn presidents fail or maybe not measure up. But that’s not going to be me. Well it was me. I tried really hard. I didn’t know how to delegate idea though guilt trip lesson for home teaching. I mean i did. I made every mistake. Muslims make and. I’m obviously my wife. Like i said and we got married and moved out of that war tonight. Sort of left that experience after it was about nine nine months to a year i left that experience feeling discouraged. You know i. I really thought it was going to make a difference and nothing really happened. A wealth whatever we moved on and then before we knew we were moving into this ward in south salt lake. And i was called into the bishopric served a few years in the bishopric and then that bishop was released and i was called as the high priest group leader and during that time when that call came i thought no like here we go again. I’m going to try really hard. I’m going to make try and make a difference but is it worth it like. Is the effort worth it. What’s the point. And i couldn’t understand why i could walk into any bookstore. Barnes and noble. Look on amazon. Wherever i could walk in any bookstore and there’d be bookshelves full of life leadership business leadership family ship. I mean everybody was talking about leadership in some context but nobody was really talking about best practices of leaders in the church right. You know how to run a meeting. How to mentor. Someone threw an addiction how to how to interview somebody right like nobody was really talking about the tangible tactics and skills and how to be a better leader and i thought you know. I’m not a leadership expert by any means but maybe i could create a platform to bring the experts to sit him down and say okay. Walk us through this principle. What are we missing what we need to learn. And so i went out and bought the domain name leading. Lds dot com and there. It began as a blog and really the beginning. Ingle back to those early articles that i wrote. I try not even though. I’m terribly embarrassed by many of them. I don’t i don’t delete them just because i think they show where where we’ve come a as an organization. I read a book like I’ve got it right here. Daniel pink’s drive the surprising. Truth about what motivates people and. I would read the book yet. I pinpoint certain principles and research. That he’d study that i write an article about how that applies to the latter day saint world and leading in the church right and there. It went. That was in two thousand ten when we started when i started the blog and little by little it grew and by two thousand fourteen. Podcasting was becoming a thing and i thought you know. I’ve a lot of experience public speaking. I feel comfortable behind a mic. So why don’t i give that a go and through help of many people understanding that technology the software the equipment. I started the podcast in two thousand fourteen and by two thousand sixteen. We became a nonprofit organization. And that’s really where i went. Full time with leading saints and here. We are now in twenty twenty so and during that time i was i went from being the high group. Leader is called a bishop after that that word and then called in the sacred seen so that gave me dyke different perspectives to see different issues in hurdles that leaders face in that help drive the content and topics that we talk about an and now we’ve grown since then we as many as a quarter of a million downloads. A month on the podcast. You know eighteen thousand people on our newsletter and it just keeps keeps growing in. It is remarkable. I i never thought i would really. It would get to this point. But it’s so fun that were here. And there’s so much more to talk about and consider in this journey. So that’s that’s the general history of leading saints now first of all. There’s a few misconceptions about leading saint. So i just wanna take a chance to explain. Hopefully clearly what we are and what we’re trying to accomplish. So you can actually go to our about page leading saints dot org dot slash about you say. We changed our name from leading les to leading saints. I believe in twenty eighteen when obviously that you know getting rid of the les was the push right. So and i was so excited to go move forward with leading saints. Because several times i thought man i wish i would have called this thing leading saints in the beginning because it just seems. I like that simple. You know. there’s no or it’s just leading saints words. That who we are here we go on and loamy hulda. That’s what we are now on the about. Page at leading saints dot org slash about go spend some time. There really gives you an understanding of what we are. We have four pillars for ways leading saints paves the way for more confident and prepared latter day saint leaders and let me go through these and this is really what we’re about and if something doesn’t fit under these four categories it’s really not what we’re about okay so the first one is we connect leaders.

00:10:07 – 00:15:05

We connect latter day saints from around the world in order to share the most effective leadership ideas thoughts and scholarship. So that’s a big thing we do and you’ll hear that on the podcast right. I may talk with a a sunday. School president in in springfield missouri. I may talk with a bishop in spain. A relief site president in australia and just asking question. How do you lead. What have you learned. What’s working in your area whether it’s during a pandemic or not you know. How do you do girls camp. All these things right and just hearing the other. Perspectives is helpful. Now you may not always agree with them or maybe you see a flaw in their approach. But i just think in general it’s helpful to connect leaders and so that’s what we do pillar one. We connect leaders pillar to we enhanced leadership ability. We make available educational opportunities to enhance leadership ability. So this is something probably need to just a little bit. But what people misunderstand as they sometimes think were training organization and we will be the first to clearly state. We are not a training organization. We don’t have the ten step process to do this. That the handbook to learn this skill. We just simply want to information out there. And if you absorb it in that approves your ability or your ability to lead the great wonderful but we don’t have a certification program. We haven’t figured out the best way to be a bishop or the worst way to be really cited president. We just share experiences. Bring in experts. And hopefully there’s some things to learn from that so a lot of people say are define us as a leading saints sir. This like training organizations for church leaders note. That’s not what we do primarily because that’s not our place to do anything that’s the that’s the church’s role to train officially trained their leaders. Right now i get some of your thinking. Yeah but we don’t get any training. Well maybe so but hopefully some of these principles can inspire leaders in your area to seek out you know or put together their own training. Maybe a bishop will hear some principles or read a book and say you know what we need to talk to our word council about how to more effectively minister how to do a home visit or how to address the culture in our work right and then the bishop can go ahead and create the training that he sees fit for his organization. But we as leading saints. We’re not a training organization but we do try and enhance leadership. Ability and price sounds more about semantics. But we definitely don’t want to leave ourselves as a training organization pillar number three. We present leadership scholarship. We seek out leadership scholars to help latter day. Saints have the most relevant and current research in order to overcome any organizational hurdle. So this is where we bring the experts in right obviously pillar one. We’re trying to connect leaders but we’re not always connecting you to leaders who are experts. Sometimes they’re just everyday leaders who figure something out and it’s interesting to hear their perspective but we also strive to find those the scholarship out there. The people who’ve done the research studies have written a book or have put more time and effort into really to really defusing a leadership problem that we might see in our leadership in the church right and so we reach out to those scholars or those experts and interview amon hopefully that that research that expertise will inspire you to maybe better understand an issue right about pornography addiction or understanding issue about the sexual abuse. Whatever it is and from there you can take it in research more and hopefully again improve your leisure ability and then our last pillar is an obvious one. I think one that we can all love and embrace and that is we celebrate divine guidance. So we’ve We celebrate restored governing priesthood keys spiritual inspiration and living prophets sacred sources of divine leadership and recognized that all leadership direction yields to this divine source. So it’s fun to talk about leadership different principles interview authors who have perspective for the end of the day we as we know in our doctor and we default to those priests keys. Now there’s a lot we can talk about around that but it is a beautiful thing that even though we might have the research even though there’s a right or wrong way to approach the situation we may feel a reprieve leader or a any. You know any leader acting under the direction of priesthood keys. They may fill certain prompting they may have an the spirit that leads them a different direction. And yeah all. The leadership scholars will look at that and shake their heads and thing. Now no no. That’s not how you do it. But we celebrate that that divine guidance exists and that it should definitely be employed in this effort to be better leaders to lead more effectively. So that is what we are. We connect leaders. We tried and has leadership ability. We present leadership scholarship and we celebrate divine guidance of priesthood keys. So anything else that fits under that. We just don’t do not. I’m gonna get into some questions that may be will help you for the understand. Why these why these four pillars are so crucial. But i think the best way to summarize all that is that we’re not a training organization. We are a community of leaders and we try and stimulate a community of leaders online through the modern day technology so that we can learn from one another and again be better prepared to lead so that community is truly what we what we aim for.

00:15:05 – 00:20:16

And i’ll tell you we have some great some great ideas some things we’re looking onto stimulate that community giving it more resources you know right now we have the leading. Saints helpers group on facebook that we get some good discussion there. It’s not as organized as i’d like it to be and so we’re looking into some technologies and applications that are helpless really stimulate the that community so that we can help each other out and move forward and see improved ability in the leadership realm for latter day saints alright so i recently asked through various social media platforms. What questions the audience had. And i gathered a handful of these and that that will answer and again if you aren’t following us on on facebook on instagram on lincoln. Twitter really is helpful. Even if you don’t spend a lot of time there just with how the way the algorithms workin whatnot it would be really helpful for you to go there and like us or follow us and make sure that you’re tuned in there whether you read stuff or not again the just helps to have many followers there as as possible. So let’s jump into some of these questions and some were gonna be all over the map here but nonetheless it’ll be fun so a lot of people have asked me especially in latin america and i get several emails from latin america saying. Hey this is great. I’m so glad. I speak english so that i can listen to this but what about spanish. There’s so many saints down here. That speak spanish so many leaders that would benefit from this content if it was in spanish and many of those requests have offered to translate and do these things in. I’m sure there’s others Italian speaking french speaking russian speaking at members of the church. You’re thinking and yeah it’d be great to have these these resources in our own language. Now obviously the church does a much better job at this. Obviously they have the resources and and The team to do so with translation and making sure they get more in more languages but Were probably if there is an additional language leading saints. it’ll be spanish to start out with and We have some things in the works as a board. Were trying to get to that. We have a board of directors which again you can read about it on the leading saints dot org slash about. We’ve discussed this and we’re working on a few other things that are priority before we really go all in in changing or into entering different language markets. I don’t know if it’s probably not the best word to use. But you know what i mean and And the big thing is just the financing of it cost a lot to do that sort of thing and and you know i obviously leading saints in. English was is was a volunteer effort by myself for many years. And so anyways we’re we’re finding people who are willing to volunteer so hopefully that comes in the near future. No promises as that exactly win. But anyways it’s coming x. Question i’d be interested in what your approach to helping us figure out what family centered Supported really looks like does and doesn’t leading saints. Do this goes back to my explanation about the four pillars of leading saints and. This is another good example. A lot of people will come and say okay. Kurt we have this. Come follow me process now. Likely winner you going to create content around how to do come follow me or or we have the the selfish or self reliance initiative you know what’s leading saints think about the self reliance initiative ever. What about this part of the handbook of that part of the handbook and this is sort of where we i mean. Sure will we may interview somebody about these programs. But it’s we try and stay very principle focused right when it comes to leadership we try not to and sometimes we we wade into some of these areas but we try not to define what an effective approach to this specific program or initiative is far as the church like the church created it they will typically create some resources around that to help you execute it effectively. Now so may argue. Yeah but it’s not enough resources. We wanna know what other people are doing and again we’ll touch on those things here or there but we don’t see us as like an organization that now now that the churches put for this family center church supported initiative or through. Come for me. We don’t see us as an organization that now has to go out and figure out how that’s done. How to effectively do that again. We may touch on that. But we don’t see that as core to our mission but we will go out and find certain principles right. So of family centered. Church supported. effort is going on. We may go out and say well. How does a mother and a father have really effective discussions with a child regardless of what the topic is right. And i’m seeing take those principles and apply them to come. Follow me or this. This family centered approach trite. But we generally don’t come out with like the ten step guide to do family centered. Church supported again. You’ll probably find a few articles that may be lean that way but if they do it’s mainly just to grab some search engine optimization and maybe a little click beatty so that people can actually clicking consume the content i apologize. I’m a marketer sigh. Kind of do that stuff. This is very a current question. The question is with home centered. Church and virtual church where many people can’t perform callings like they used to how can leading saints stay relevant and of use because six months of not being useful can lose a lot of interest and people move on to find resources that are relevant to the now and i felt like this recently.

00:20:16 – 00:25:00

Like i’m holding onto leading saints for some reason. When i could easily just let it go as if it doesn’t serve the same purpose now as it did one to two years ago so this was an interesting question because i obviously what they’re getting at. Is you know you talk about leadership but this is different now it’s it’s home centered or it’s a yet since centered home centered. Church is what they say right and it seemed like back in the summer or right after the shutdown the pandemic sort of flared up. We did try and focus on some very focused pandemic content now. There wasn’t a lot of dry areas to go in my opinion somebody descru- without but in so we then shifted back to again. Just being more principle focused and some of those discussions did sound. Like you know this what you do when you meet for sunday school in the sunday school room at church in it’s hard to relate to that now we don’t do this perfectly but we always strive to stay principle. Focus like i said an. I believe anytime. We talk about a principal even though he may use examples anecdotes that aren’t as relevant today. We try make the continent. Evergreen is possible by staying principle focus but we believe those principles that are discussed can be applied to whatever situation. You’re in even in a pandemic right now. You may have to brainstorm and think of different approach to do that. But recently we have as many heard we have shifted back to maybe creating more content like the interview. He did with dan duckworth right or the interview he did with jeff arbox. So we’re very focused on how to help you through how to teach in the pandemic setting or with virtual church now. I believe those episodes will still be valuable. Listen to long after the pandemic is over our long after we go back to a regular attendance a church so the openness and and it. It does help me here that maybe some people aren’t here are finding leading helpful during this odd time but we are trying to find a different angles and answer certain questions that will help you in the here and now the next question i won’t read it verbatim but basically saying how can we help leaders. That necessarily aren’t interested in improving as leaders. How do we get them. Engaged in this content so they actually consider some of these principles we discuss leading saints. This is an interesting question. One perspective. I hear often is just that you know man my my bishop just doesn’t get it or i really struggled my relief society president and if they would just listen to leading saints or read this article or listen to that episode they would have a new perspective like i did like i listened to it. I had this awakening to this principle. And now i’m gonna do. I would do it different but my leader just isn’t doing that. Here’s the reality. Is that leading saints as much as i wanted to be for everybody. It just really isn’t for everybody and if a leader doesn’t want to subscribe to the podcast and listen. I’m okay with that. I wish they would. But maybe there’s other resources they find helpful right. Maybe they found a book. Or i don’t know what it would be that they they’re finding help at and i realized there are some leaders. Bless their hearts. Who don’t seem to be trying to improve. They just feel like they have figured out right. One of the most crucial leadership characteristics in my opinion is a self awareness and a lotta leaders. Make little attempt to be self aware. And i think that i would argue. That hurts their leadership. But maybe they think they’re good. It’s hard i get an. We have various resources. And here’s another question too as far as what do you do when you are that person who is trapped under may be what you define as poor leadership you know. There’s various things we can do in there still opportunities to lead. But if we can’t force anybody to listen to podcasts we can’t mandate and so we’ll just keep creating content. And maybe at some point and i hear about this all the time so many leaders find it or they’ve heard about it before but didn’t really look into it. Then they find it. Start binge listening to past episodes and get caught up. But let’s just keep praying for him because they really are doing the best that they can next question. How do we adapt to changing. World conditions without acting outside leaders. Guidance is a good question. I mean that’s their. That’s a similar question. I’ve heard before with you all these great ideas. But what if the idea that i have. According to the principle is outside the realm of the handbook or my bishop does want to do it. Right again we go back to that. Fourth pillar that we celebrate divine guidance and sometimes that divine guidances in a direction that maybe leadership scholars would would not agree with. But i would argue that. There is so much wiggle room is you read closely. Handbooks are so much more we could do to really make a difference in shift a culture of an organization that to me.

00:25:00 – 00:30:09

This isn’t even an issue like this isn’t there’s no barrier that would really holds a leader back from being a dynamic leader and one that causes positive cultural change next question. So what’s on the docket for twenty twenty one. What is leading saints mission in preparing for the second coming how much happens as exposure or business or feedback and how much happens as inspiration. So this is a good question. I mean at the end of the day leading saints is an organization. We are a inc company right of nonprofit business and so yeah there is a business upon it too much of what we do right. We have to raise money. We have to have revenue so that we can continue to To have our mission. As somebody told me who i think is a big phrase at franklin covey. There’s no mission. Without the margin we have to have the financial margin in order to accomplish the mission. And so that that’s tricky. But i assure you every every interview every podcast episode including this one starts with prayer. We are always trying to be reflective as aboard every board meeting starts with prayer right like we are trying to be in tune. We’re trying to recognize what are boundaries are. We are trying to be as proactive as possible of seeking out the inspiration. Now obviously we’re not an official organization under the structure of the church. You know there’s no priesthood keys that we’re acting under so nonetheless. All that considered we do our best to be as thoughtful as a prayerful in all the content that we create hoping that is helping latter-day saints better prepared to lead so as far as ushering in the second coming. I guess that’s not always on the top of my mind as i wake up in the morning and go about my business maybe should be but you know we hope that leading saints plays a part in in a shooting in the second coming in some way. We want christ to return and we would love that in there. You haven’t made is not directly written in our mission. But we’d love to play a role in the building of god’s kingdom and Helping usher in the return of our savior. Here’s a question i often. What contact has leading saints had with. Church headquarters are authorized leadership. Have any ideas presented to leading saints caught the attention of general authorities. The short answer is. I don’t know i obviously like again. The fourth pillar we celebrate divine guidance We don’t necessarily have a certain contact in the church. That were running things by or you know i. I would love to have a regular lunch with elder bednarz or prison. Okay sir you know but that’s probably not going to happen nor do i expect it to and that’s okay. But yet the short answer is there’s there’s no communication with the church because the church just doesn’t do that right but you’d be surprised. I don’t think many members realize how many third-party nonprofit organizations are out there that are assisting the church in their mission so for example pleading saints as one nor star is another one. I’m proud to be a have a c. On their board the more good foundation there is more than central. there is a fair mormon. You know all these organizations that are working autonomously apart from the church but the church recognizes there helping them in ways that maybe the church can’t do right and a lot of people at last me. Do you ever expect a church to to absorb you to buy you out or even though you can’t i don’t own the organization senses nonprofits so i i can’t sell it to anybody but you ever expect a church to sort of absorb do what you’re doing and i don’t know maybe that maybe they’ll do that but i don’t think we have a lot of and wiggle room when it comes to certain topics we can talk about right. Where if the church tried to talk about in official capacity some of the topics that we talk about. It’d be much more difficult for them because they have. Here’s a lot of red tape. There’s the there’s set their interaction with how the how the media would interpret that and at the end of the day i can just say you were in organization. I do this I run this organization. I have no connection with a church. I’m not an official representative the church and so if you didn’t like that topic that we discussed the way we discussed it. Sorry i’m just a guy right or we’re just an organization doing this and we’re not connected with the church so there is a lot of freedom in being an independent organization and were able to talk about certain topics and reach a certain audience without some of the unfortunate restrictions or boundaries of the church has just being a large organization right next question. This person just says what about an app. I would love and this is one of my dreams right now if yes most people in the audience what is leading saints. They’ll typically say it’s a podcast. But i hope in the future it will be. It’s an app right or an organization that has a great app right and there is so much we can do with an app to give you just the rough ballpark as far as what it would take to get a solid app. That’s not going to break every other day that i will use digital email me about in frustration. It’s gonna take an investor about fifty to sixty thousand dollars just to get the app go and then maintenance is much lower than that but We’re just not there yet. Bowed loved to to be there. I would love to create nap. The just phenomenal and a more helpful and able to help you to to peruse content fine content tag content that it’s going to help you in specific situation.

00:30:09 – 00:35:01

So that’s in the future but it’s just all about raising money and having a finances to do that next question. Have you thought about doing some sort of fireside workshop trading tour you could hold polls for where to do them and go to the most requested places so this is interesting obviously. There’s current restrictions as far as travel that. Make them more difficult you know. Obviously you can travel. I don’t think there’s anywhere there’s few places. I could go to have an event and have a lot of people. Come just because we’re sorta shut down right now right but definitely in the future and we’ve done in the past is i’ve I’ve traveled to colorado to california to where else back east more in talked to someone in south carolina. A to come out. And do you know. I’ve done firesides and And workshop type things and it’s great and we do you know we can always do him inside the church. If it’s a official leading saints event done firesides where i’ve been asked to come and speak and i don’t mention or talk about leading saints but we talked about certain principles that are gospel related. People seem to appreciate him. So i’d be happy to come anywhere in the world deeply helps if someone has a place for us to stay and So we can supplement some of those casa make it really cheap but i love traveling different places. And you’ll hear this to the podcast is when i go to a place like recently. I went to missouri springfield missouri. And i was able to interview a lot of different people in person and it makes for better interview and get a better feel that area. So i would love to a plan at some point to go to australia. I’ve done a lot of emails from australia. People wishing that could come down there and maybe interview some people and and in europe and all these things so obviously right now. That may not be likely. I do have a conference. That i signed up for long ago in nashville and so i was planning on doing something out nashville while i was there. But that’s in march and I don’t know if that’ll be happening. But we’ll see but if you are interested in doing a fireside or workshop even via zoom. I am more than happy to do that or facilitate that or connect you with someone that can and these are. They can be very simple. As as you’ve seen maybe guest speakers come into a leadership meeting or whatever like i’ve got all sorts of content to come in and facilitate of really engaging presentation for local leaders. Now obviously it’s only done under the direction of a stake president bishop. That’s what they want done. We don’t charge. We don’t ask for money. We don’t bring up donations. we don’t fundraise. we’d barely mention our organization. We just want to help. And if there’s an expert or someone who’s willing to do that. We are happy to facilitate that but we definitely do so appropriately. So that we’re not trying to fundraise or or push a certain agenda rally. We just want to have a discussion about leadership or have discussion about certain topic. Another person asked what about retreats leadership retreats. So this will be cool right. We have a church tortured. History tour is scheduled for july. That has been. It was postponed last year. We’ll see if it’ll take off the sheer but we’re always hoping and that’s just a guess. It’s a retreat but again we’re not a training organization so as far as having a retreat where we were reduced specific training or certifications or whatnot. That’s not what we do but there are not only the not only the history tour. But i’ve mentioned the warrior your heart organization. They do men’s retreats it which are phenomenal. Like you if you haven’t been to one make sure you go to a heart dot com and check out when the next one is obviously we had to postpone a few because of covid but The women’s retreat. They also have a women’s organization attached to that and these these are phenomenal. Go back and we’ll linked to those episodes in the show notes Get more on that but other than that. I don’t see any or specific retreat in our future. But if you have some ideas. I’d love to hear what about Moderated forums where people with the similar callings are leadership responsibilities can ask questions and and create discussion. So this is the i mentioned before This is definitely a community building effort that we hope to establish twenty twenty one to give you more of a formal a forum to discuss again. Go to leading. Saints helpers on facebook and there’s discussion there but again it’s just not as dynamic as i’d like it to be there’s more we could do to really zero in on certain topics or callings or experiences. That would help. So that’s coming. So this person asks leading from as far as leading from the bottom up in other words how someone with a smaller calling or no calling can still lead. So i wrote a whole. Pdf on this. If you go to you can text the word lead to four seven. Four seven four seven. And it’ll send you a link to a page. Where has a has an article called how to lead when you’re not a leader. I think it’s something like that. I forget the exact title and that’s probably a good place to start. But that’s a whole discussion topic on their own.

00:35:01 – 00:40:06

But we do have there. And i would encourage you that. If you’re not a leader he should still act like a leader and a man. We got some good content coming up around that so check it there. This person says i’m curious about your whole podcast process. How do you get. How do you get and schedule interviews. How do you prepare for the interviews. What techniques do you use to help the interviews flow. Editing and other things are doing behind the scenes so the short answer is if you go to follow us on instagram. I try and be everyday at trying to be proactive of sharing behind the scenes stuff. What i’m working on. Who i’m interviewing Episodes to expect or content to expect. And so that’s a good place to start but as far as the process. You know we all we get emails a lot and we encourage people to send in recommendations of people we should talk to men but there’s only fifty or so episodes a year that we have to be very specific gun who we put on there and sometimes even there’s some really good people that we don’t we don’t get on the podcast so but keep sentiment so we get a lot of suggestions that way. Just yesterday i got in touch with a sibling of someone who is in general presidency of the church. I won’t mention who they are now just in case it doesn’t work out but there were working on getting them on the podcast in hearing from them. So just Being proactive you know connecting our networks in. that’s generally how it’s done also desert booker cedar for publishers. As as different books will come out. They’ll reach out to me and say hey. Will you help us promote this book. And you can interview this peop- the author or whatever. That’s how gotten people like sister. Julia beck in tadcaster. And there’s some few Elder carton is about to release a book through four in so i been emailing with him and getting having plans to have interview and recorded discussion with him nagging. Share with all of you. So that’s generally how the interviews happen. How do i prepare for the interviews. If there’s a book involved. I always try and read the book. I hope that comes across. You know. I always want to make sure i have a good idea of what they’ve written about. And then you know. Sometimes a book isn’t directly leadership related. So i’ll find a caveat that can be leadership related and go that direction. And sometimes i get a book and i’m like this is really helpful for my audience or i don’t see how we can have a leadership discussion so we don’t do an interview but as far as like techniques out the interviews. I hope i hope. I’m improving like i said david farnsworth helped so much with just keeping the interview moving making sure i’m getting all the content and information and I don’t know. I don’t know if they just try and be super curious and try and keep you in mind as leaders that it’s great to they have this or that thought but what does that mean for leaders right. I try to always push that way all right and if you have any other questions i would love to hear from you. At leading saints dot org slash contact sent me a message It’d be awesome. Also been doing these zoom calls with a group. Ten people are less than the leading saints audience. And i’ve loved them just in an hour. Here i’m going to be on a call with With somebody else a group of people and discussing leading saints and so it is Do now i get a lot of good feedback and just hear how the information’s being being applied so so yeah if you have any other questions go there and love to hear from you and through the magic of podcasting twelve hours past or probably fifteen sixteen hours of pests and so what you were ten seconds ago and mainly there was a lot there and probably took too long explaining it. But i am. I want to make sure. I hit the sex part solid because at the end of the day leading saints is awesome. I mean it’s helping so many people and i don’t think you truly realize the impact it’s having so i hope to communicate that here but the reality is we are in an unsustainable position financially. We cannot continue on as we are doing right now. And so the board of leading saints come together and and wise mines thinking through how we could better fundraise reach out to large donors. We could better finance this mission because again there’s no mission without margin and we definitely have to figure out how to meet that margin every year so this is how the financial model of leading saints is currently working. We have what are called core leaders. And you’re probably familiar with these. The are subscribing donor so individuals either donate to leading saints on a monthly quarterly or yearly basis. That is what we consider a cord leader and those are awesome. I mean i can’t thank you enough for the core leaders out there to Contribute to give part of your monthly budget to leading saints so that we can continue on we have about Just over eleven hundred core leaders and again we get as many as a quarter of a million downloads a month to the podcast that we have eighteen thousand people on her email list right so but nonetheless we only have a hundred core leaders again. I’m thankful for every last one of them but we definitely need more help there. What we’re doing right now. Is the virtual summits supplement. What the core leaders. Don’t meet right so if we only had core leaders we we’d be done a long time ago as far as at the rate of how many leaders we have right now.

00:40:06 – 00:45:07

There’s just not enough to do what it is. We do and de just won’t work and so we supplement those donations through our virtual summits and our virtual summits do help us get a shot in the arm of funds. That make it happen. There are a lot of work. They’re great. I love him. We plan on continuing to do them. And i’ll talk about that maybe a minute but it’s just it’s just not enough that especially because we’ve hit some of the larger topics right. We’ve talked about teaching. We’ve talked about helping individuals through pornography addiction. We’ve talked about to lgbt latter day saints right like these are large topics that get a lot of attention when we do these summits but they they’re done and of course we’ll keep adding to them the be made available again and again and hopefully we’ll be able to continue to raise some funds from those but as far as those that large that large financial. Sean the arm the future summits we do. We anticipate that they are not going to have as much of a hit right. So we’re gonna do a virtual about Leading young saints. You know young people how to lead them how to not just for adults leading them but how do their peers lead each other. There’s things around mental illness. depression anxiety. Some some around Those topics that we hope to cover. And and i have a good list here. And we’ll there’s plenty to cover marriage sexual intimacy. I mean there’s so many angles. I think leaders face topics and things that we could definitely do virtual summit but we just anticipate they’re not going to fund raise as much as others hopefully wrong but anyway that’s our that’s our projection. Is that it probably won’t raise so we basically. We can’t depend on some us to do that so two areas which we need your help is one is small donors and those are the the core leaders right that give a b fifteen dollars a month or a hundred dollars a year whatever it is having a recurring basis of donors is truly what we need those small donors and hope that does have a negative connotation to the core leaders. That’s who i’m referring to everybody out there. My goal with this episode and those coming up is to get you not to get a bunch of corollaries but to get you. That’s right you listening wherever you are. I know that we can think other people can do this. But we need you to help in whatever you can afford. We need you to help our. That’s my goal is to get you to help. So small donors is the first place so contribute. You can go to leading saints dot org. There’s a a big donate buttoning. Click on and it’ll take right page to become a core leader. But the small donors we try and create value exchange value for value. We have the core leader library with full of pass virtual summits we have a separate podcast stream which were working on getting fixed at moment but it is there and we try and create additional value there but as i’ve surveyed all the core leaders by far everybody says That’s great that you give you know the core leader library and all these other things. But i simply want to donate because i want to support the mission. I wanna help you. I wanna help The board of directors. I want to help this community growth so that we can stimulate more productive more effective leadership in our religious community. Right so sure. There’s are there additional things. But i’m not gonna do on those because i don’t think that’s why people are donating. They simply want to contribute and make this possible and then a larger donors. We need to be in touch with people who can write for figure. Five figure six figure checks and Who have the resources to do that. Or maybe a foundation that it’s able to do that We would love to make those connections so if you’re if you’re listening out there maybe you’ve a sold three companies and You know you’re you’re retired in your in your forties or whatever and you could write a big beautiful jack. Would you reach out to me like i. i will take any conference. Any phone call with anybody was willing to to sit down and understand our mission and to help us out. Because i guess i don’t want this to come across it like oh. Kurt needs more core leaders. So yeah i’ll go help them out. Contribute fifty dollars a month. Which would be great. We’ll take it. But also i don’t want you to think well if you could. Do you know twenty thousand a year. I don’t want you just default to that to fifty dollars a month so hopefully that makes sense but the reality is if everything was to go in twenty twenty one just like it went and twenty twenty. We probably need as we’ve gotten together as a board of directors who probably need an additional one hundred thousand dollars to keep things going now on the surface seemed like. Wow that’s a lot but you know there’s podcast and organizations that that require that much much more you know many or of my contemporaries that have our nonprofit third party organizations probably have a budget of a million dollars a year right and so we don’t necessarily need that at this point maybe someday depending on the direction we go with this mission in this organization but for twenty twenty one.

00:45:08 – 00:50:00

We need your help because we need an additional one hundred thousand dollars at least to help a fall through the plans. We have The mission we have the goals we have and so we need your help. So getting go to leading saints dot. Org can hit the donate button and read all the details and make a contribution there. Now you may have thank god. I don’t know if i could even put a dent in in that goal. But we just need you to give something. This needs to be a community for the people by the people right. Four lay leaders via leaders right. So we need. Everybody’s help contribute. Something and i was just talking with the bishop yesterday. And he was like you know what. I was. Sorta weird as a bishop. I felt weird like contributing to a third party organization to get to additional leadership content relief ship information and i just fell off in a lot of people especially in our religious tradition. We pay our tithing in. it’s sort of. We don’t really look elsewhere to contribute because well we pay our tithing but this is a place we definitely need and again. It’s very a typical scenario with third party organizations helping the church with their mission. It happens all the time. This type of fundraising is happening in mortgage foundation fair mormon in brooklyn warren central. They’re all doing this type of fundraising maybe in a different form but We definitely need need your help in. Continue our mission forward. If you’re someone who can make a larger donation. I would love to contact you. Just go to leading saints dot org slash contact in there. That email will come to me. And we’ll start the conversation. And i also want to take the time to effectively illustrate if i can’t be impossible for me to do this completely but we communicate just the impact. We are having okay for several months this year. We’ve had two hundred and fifty downloads. A month to the podcast. Now we can’t really track subscribers and exact people or how long they’re listening are all these things but the download you can. You can hit even if he listened through a through chrome web browser and you listen through that and didn’t necessarily download it still counts in that download can a quarter of a million downloads around the world. People every month listening to the continent leading states surf you to do the calculation of at that number and how many wards and stakes that represents that would be about. We’re speaking to a eight hundred and thirty wards every month and about one hundred and twenty stakes every month now. that’s back of the napkin type of calculation. But just to give an idea. Eight hundred and thirty wards one hundred and nineteen or one hundred and twenty stakes now. An agreement goes beyond that because this aren’t just everyday leaders that were talking to sure. There’s a lot in our audience who don’t necessarily have leadership calling but these are leaders that are listening. Consider the impact that we’re having on the church as a whole by reaching that type of audience and we can do so much more right so the impact is real. it’s there and i wanna read a few testimonials that just really touched my heart. And i get five or so of these a week of just emails and if and if you wouldn’t mind sending me an email i would love that. Just tell me how leading says impacted you. Tell me how it’s changed you what’s worked. What hasn’t give me feedback. Whatever it is but these testimonials really keep going in you know. They’re hard to take to the bank and cash in but nonetheless they keep us going this. This is wrong motivation for us. So here’s a few leading. Saints is been a lifeline for me. The last six months since i found it. I can’t thank you enough for what you do. Here’s another. I have never really supported any group or individual besides my regular church contributions but you are the exception to my rule. I happened across your podcast. One day do not remember the exact circumstance. But i was impressed with what you were doing. I began to follow leading saints on a regular basis. And after your summit on pornography. I was sold on what you were doing in recovery from addiction myself. The quality and accuracy of information at the summit was impressive. I do not think that. I have ever been disappointed by podcast. Always informative and many times moved by the spirit hearing from real people that are dealing with or have overcome major obstacles in their lives is always inspiring. You doing a great work with leading saints. And i tell everyone i can about it. I am happy to be a core leader. Here’s another testimonial both my husband and myself love your podcast. It’s changed our own leadership. We are far better leaders in church and in our jobs because of your podcast and those you interview. I shared often with anyone. Who will listen to my excitement. I found leading saints a little over a year ago. Our oldest son came home from serving an honorable mission. When he was hit with faith doubt he was free falling as his foundation of belief crumbled. I went searching. And looking for anything i could find help help with my crushed heart and help me understand. That’s how i found your podcast. I think the first one.

00:50:00 – 00:55:00

I listened to was a couple. I believe the packer family. They’re sending daughter-in-law talking about their experience of their faith changing and how they as parents and family found understanding and love. The parents were mission presidents in africa. I believe at the time the sun a medical student with a young family. Their story was so helpful to know we were not alone to gain insight and perspective and ideas and inspiration of how to become in our own family. I’m a bishop. And i had a mother of my ward who is a gospel doctrine teacher. She texted me morning telling me she’s having a faith crisis and wanted to be released. I had found these two podcasts earlier. And knew i needed to share them with her. I already did. And she’s going to start listening to them on the way home from work today. Your podcast has made my calling as bishop so much better than i am. A culture changer. Now hut love that and again. I just loved it. Were giving leaders resources to turn to write content deterred to that they can maybe send onto somebody rather than try and say it again and again and again the same way every person that may be goes through this next testimonial i just completed watching the lgbt’s saints virtual summit and my heart is so full of compassion and love for this community. I have a cousin who came home a few years ago from his mission early and then shortly after came out. I’m from a small prominent. Lds community in the middle of nowhere. The cousin of course left his home quickly after coming out. Probably for safety reasons as well as others to go explore his identity. I have always felt uncomfortable with not knowing what to say or not say to him or his parents. I even debated on following him on facebook. Because i didn’t like seeing pictures of him with his boyfriend and i was very judgmental and hoping he would find himself and be normal again. Your summit is exactly what i needed. I felt like. I learned so much and have much repenting to do with how i have thought about my lgbt brothers and sisters. I feel so ashamed for my ignorance and lack of even wanting to know more because of your summit i reached out to my cousin and expressed my desire to learn how to be a better human from him and if he felt comfortable would he share his journey with me. So i could understand more. I haven’t heard a response yet and my palms are sweating. And i’m nervous is not like i chat with him all the time but i hit send so there’s no turning back now again. Those are just a handful of testimonials that come through. And i. Maybe i need to find a better way to share those but we are having a dramatic impact on our community and i want to move this mission fort and the reality is we need your help now. I know many view even nucor leaders are listening thinking. Oh well i give already. And that’s great and man. We are so thankful and if you haven’t felt gratitude from us would you reach out to me and let me. I’d never want that to come across. But would you consider maybe increasing your donation as well. Maybe you just went for the lowest amount that you could when he did it and But maybe you could give a little bit more. We could really. We could really use it again. One hundred thousand dollars. Additional hundred thousand dollars is what we need for this coming. Twenty twenty one here and we need your help to in seriously all of course chat with any larger donor. That can can ride check. But seriously i’ll chat with anybody. You got ten dollars a month that you can put four five dollars a month. Whatever it is. I’ll chat with you. Let’s do this. let’s get together. I want to hear what excites you about this mission and what you can do to help and again we’re doing these Groups zoom meetings. Ten people are less that we all just get in a room and learn from each other. Talk about leading saints. I get feedback from you and hear your experience how you found and what not that. That may be good place to start and we’ll link to where to go to register for that in the show notes if you want to do it or do multiple times. I’m always willing to talk. I’ll talk with anybody who’s willing to contribute to this mission. A new era. How big or small. I want to be in this with you. I want you to feel like you’re in this with us and making a difference on this coming week you’re going to hear a variety of episodes. Come out and they’re going to be fun. I’m going to share various various leadership principles and thoughts and perspectives. That i’ve been thinking about. We’re going to do talk about the top ten episodes of twenty twenty. We’re gonna talk about my ten favorite books of twenty twenty my top ten leadership books that i would recommend any brand new leader in the church. Tugboat leadership skills. A certain leadership talks that have been shared in general conference habits widgets. Whatever it is. They’re just gonna be fun but if you’ll listen to those that’d be great they’re gonna be short as well and Hopefully it will encourage you to contribute and see the mission that we’re doing and In that you appeal part of this and that you’ll help us move this mission further out into the world as you know i typically in most episodes with the question right question being as you have been a leader.

00:55:00 – 00:57:23

How has that made you better. Follower of jesus christ and the reason i asked that question and everybody i don’t know maybe at this point it sounding cheesier cheese in every podcast has their question. It seems like but the reason. I asked that is no matter. What topic we talk about. No matter what author we have on book they’ve written event were having. I always make sure that we highlight the savior. Jesus christ at the end of every episode again. I don’t do it on every episode but definitely ninety percent of the episodes. It’s there and this is why we do. It is that we’re building his kingdom and it may seem awkward. You may. We may want to default to current. We’re doing that in the church. Like why do we need this organization do that. We need a lot to do that. The building of the keenum just doesn’t happen or the kingdom has managed and governed the building of the keenum happens in all of our lives in every aspect. We do in every job sales call. We’d go on in every meeting wherein whether it’s church meaner not the building of the kingdom happens everywhere and we’ve outlined an organization called leading saints or his kingdom is being built now needs funding in needs a effort in these people taking time to do that but it is kingdom building the same. And that’s why we do. This is not to necessarily create the the best leaders in the world the hopefully through that effort of creating the best leaders we create the best followers of jesus christ in the world again leading saints dot org and there. You can donate button. We’re gonna leading saints dot org slash contact and semi message. I’d love to chat and see how we can help you become a part of the margin of this mission. So thank you for your support of leading saints. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us. I the god of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of jesus christ when the declaration was made concerning the all and only true and living church upon the face of the earth we were immediately put in a position of loneliness loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor away and which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.

Jeff Harbach is the CEO of Kaufmann Fellows, an organization helping venture capitalists focus on becoming better versions of themselves. He serves as a bishop in Austin, Texas,

Highlights

8:00 The overlap between work and church service
10:00 Leading in uncertain times: Why are we doing what we do? Gathering Israel and helping individuals along the covenant path.
11:30 The brain handles bad news better than it handles uncertainty. Uncertainty and fear come from the adversary. The Savior is completely certain about what we’re going through.
14:15 Infusing this into the culture of our organizations

• Example of a Christmas gathering during a pandemic: Is there a way to accomplish this in a different way? This requires getting uncomfortable and pushing ourselves.

18:30 Setting a vision in uncertain times: Do it despite uncertainty. Some goals will be met and some will not anyway.

• A goal might need to be done differently, but it still needs to be intentional.
• 21:00 Goal-setting is the process of creating measurable steps toward the vision, not a test of perfection.
• 22:40 Vision is not a feel-good warm blanket, but needs to be taken down to the specifics of the individuals.
• 25:20 We have inspired leadership that gives us the framework for what we should be doing, and delegation to allow individuals to receive revelation for the people they are responsible for.
• 28:40 Despite uncertainty, we will be looking back and asking how we did with our goals. This is an invitation from the Lord to figure out a new way of ministering. Challenge to come up with just one new thing to do.

31:45 Example of Summer of Heroes project for goal-setting for the youth. There are heroes all around us.
39:30 How can you lead like this without taking over for the youth and allow them to lead?

• Their experience is part of this and they will be in different places. Invite them to the process and allow them to learn from their successes instead of their failures: Help them towards that.
• Walk alongside them as they have their experience. There is no one size fits all strategy. Maintain communication and help them know they can trust you and always ask for help.

46:00 Results of the Summer of Heroes: reward for striving
50:15 There will always be hard times and something that we can blame for our difficulties, but great things come from hard times. The Lord is preparing the youth for great things.
54:12 Think outside the box and set your goals high despite uncertainty
55:00 SCARF model developed by David Rock

• The brain processes physical threats and social threats in the same way. What is being triggered for us? What matters for us? What happens when we are triggered by these things?
• 57:40 Newness removes certainty and our brains start to focus on these threats.
• Instead, go back to the basics and focus on three areas: diet sleep, exercise. Your body will respond better and it gives you something certain to focus on, bringing control over what you can control and the certainty that comes with it.
• Embrace the boring and the minutia.

1:01:50 There is a lot of new and we have been invited to embrace it
1:03:00 Solving problems in the calling he has been given has taught him to rely on the Lord and embrace his relationship with the Savior

Links

Your Brain at Work, by David Rock

Serving as a Sunday School President during a time of change and a pandemic can be challenging. In this podcast, Kurt speaks with two leaders who have sought to implement different strategies that might push Sunday School teachers and students in ways that make gospel learning more powerful.

James Grandon

James Grandon has been an elementary school principal in Missouri for over 25 years and holds a master’s degree in education and educational leadership. He currently serves as a bishop, and previously served as a stake Sunday School president.

Highlights

7:40 Principles from Teaching No Greater Call using teaching strategies that were different from lecture

• Sought to make social connections between the Sunday School presidents in the stake
• Stake Sunday School presidency modeled the teaching strategies, pairing them with doctrines during ward conferences

Principles of Leadership

1. 14:30 Change takes time

• Teacher council meetings are still stretching the culture and can be a revelatory experience

• 19:30 Asking class members to teach what they know about a topic, rather than asking them to read a quote
• “Turn and talk”: Challenging the class a little to make it more personal
• Modeling in meetings

• Appendix F in Teaching No Greater Call
• It’s about action and not knowledge

34:45 Online teaching can still be very personal and connect people

Greg Nalder

Greg Nalder lives in Meridian, Idaho, where he works as a software engineer. He currently serves as a Sunday School president and previously served as a bishopric counselor.

Highlights

40:00 For pandemic teaching, his ward has a gospel doctrine class and a youth Sunday School class with split in-person and online students
43:10 Coordinated to hold teacher councils on alternate weeks and had the Primary President lead the Primary teacher councils
45:30 Rotate through attending Sunday School classes to look for some topics they can focus on in teacher councils

Principles of Leadership

1. 46:50 Don’t just stick to what you know

• Lead a discussion instead of teaching a class
• 52:00 Getting away from the lecture: be persistent and don’t be afraid of silence

• Visit the classes; take the responsibility for finding a substitute, use a list provided by the bishopric, and step in to teach as needed

1:02:40 Using an online spreadsheet to organize classes, instructors, and rooms, coordinating with the bishopric
1:05:10 Seek to make your calling a joy and blessing to you

Dan Duckworth is a changemaker, teacher, and community-builder. He founded Crux Central to facilitate his mission to make deep change accessible to the masses—not just to executives. He writes and podcasts at danduckworth.net and hosts high-intensity leadership workshops at cruxcentral.com. He’s also a member of the Leading Saints Board of Directors.

Highlights

7:30 The struggle with virtual church: Dan’s experience as a youth Sunday School teacher moving to once-a-month teaching opportunities, then to no church, and then to virtual church
10:00 The realization that came from creating an online transformational learning community: This can actually work
13:10 Switching your mindset into humility, self-awareness, and acknowledgment of your own mediocrity: “Broken but Brimming”
14:30 For an individual to intentionally have a transformational experience, it requires connecting with others
15:25 Current You has to go into the refiner’s fire in order to transform into New You. What we want students to do is want to go into the fire, and feel safe enough to do it.
18:00 Do the people need the leaders or do the leaders need the people?
19:10 Dan’s experience

• Learned from his previous teaching experiences that community is key and leads to people wanting to leap into the fire
• 21:00 His key belief that was wrong: You can’t develop authentic community virtually. He enrolled in an online workshop and realized he was connecting with strangers.
• 26:15 Creating his own workshop and struggling to get past the focus on the content and getting it “right”
• 27:30 “You’re giving me content. What I came for was the conversation. The magic was the community and the conversations that we had. That’s what changed my life.”
• 29:45 The conversation started to change and people started to care about each other
• 31:30 Of the people who participated, 100% has a transformational experience

32:50 Experiment with his Sunday School class

• Texted a video inviting them to class, including one principle and a story
• 34:55 The error was his investment, not the students

35:45 Principle 1: Curate people

• Let people self-select
• 37:50 Get the right people into the room in the right mindset: it’s your job to protect your guests from the “party spoiler”
• Your goal is to get people to want to be there
• Set the expectations of the group: turn your cameras on no matter what you are doing, so we can be ourselves
• 42:28 People want to be part of something awesome. Focus on creating something magnetic, not on controlling them.

45:08 Principle 2: Connect people

• What am I doing to connect them to each other? (not to the lesson content)
• 46:50 Stop the “lesson” and get one person to share their story
• 49:30 Start with your own authenticity: share your truth without being plastic because everyone recognizes plastic
• Break the rules and show others that they can, too

53:20 Principle 3: Create arguments

• An argument is making a claim that can be proven wrong
• Inspire them to engage in the wrestle: let go of the need to be right and create cognitive dissonance, planting questions (not about the doctrine) about our experience
• 56:10 It’s never appropriate to be a devil’s advocate in the church setting; this is an argument for the sake of arguing, which only entrenches beliefs instead of creating transformation
• People should walk away having shared their truth, heard the truth of others, and looking to change

59:30 Principle 4: Ground it in real life

• Why Gospel Principles class is better than Gospel Doctrine class
• 1:01:00 Share a principle, what it means to you, and a story from your own experience

1:03:30 Experience teaching in elders quorum, talking about the Sharon Eubank talk, By Union of Feeling We Obtain Power with God, and creating a powerful discussion

• Stepping into the fire when you try to do something positively deviant
• Go find people to listen to this interview and ask their opinions

1:13:10 Observing Bob Quinn’s Sunday School class: I am here to create a School of the Prophets—a masterclass of an expert and a group of advanced students, receiving revelation
1:16:30 Concern that we have to be teaching doctrine, not wandering off into stories

• The most important part of leadership performance is your character, then your psychological/emotional state of being, then knowledge and skills
• Teaching doesn’t necessarily mean what we’ve been thinking it means

1:21:30 Core beliefs:

• Your students want to grow and get to the other side of the fire
• The “School of the Prophets” community is possible
• You have to learn how to unlock that: Help them want to do it

1:24:20 The value of knowledge is how you apply it, grounding it, moving into wisdom
1:24:46 Dan’s purpose to bring powerful change to individuals, enabling people to give more of themselves to the world, to become changemakers

Links

danduckworth.net
cruxcentral.com
The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters, by Pria Parker

Jason Hewlett is a speaker, performer, and entertainer. In 2020 he added “bestselling author” and “virtual entertainer” to his repertoire. Jason has served as an elders quorum president and currently serves on the high council in his stake. He is also a husband, and a father to four children.

Highlights

5:00 Introduction
7:45 Advice to leaders handling virtual events

• 10:55 Instruct people attending meetings to turn on their camera
• Warm up with a question in chat

14:15 Jason’s experience serving on the high council
16:30 Jason’s journey writing and publishing The Promise to the One

• The foundation of his message is in keeping promises to ourselves

19:20 Experience serving as an elders quorum president and trying so hard to do it all that he wasn’t keeping the promise to himself
24:00 Signature Moves: The unique talents, skills, and traits you can share with the world

• Identify, clarify, magnify
• Do this with others and recognize what others see that you might not

31:40 Property line living: recognize where we can stop or keep going in the service of others

• Keeping a promise to those we serve

39:20 Experience struggling to figure out how to work during a pandemic, and the gifts of a friend playing music outside the house, and friends offering to help
44:00 Leaving a legacy: What can you create now that will live beyond you? What do I want the end game to be? How can I serve at the highest level of engagement?
49:35 Experience of choosing to leave in chapter 10
56:00 What it means to keep your promise as a disciple of Jesus Christ

Links

JasonHewlett.com
The Promise to the One, by Jason Hewlett
How This Professional Entertainer Can Help Improve Your Next High Council Talk | An Interview With Jason Hewlett

Chad Ford is best known as an analyst and entrepreneur covering the NBA and NBA Draft for ESPN. His primary work, however, is as a peacebringer, an international conflict mediator, college professor, and director of the David O. McKay Center for Intercultural Understanding at BYU-Hawaii. In this interview, Chad discusses the concepts in his book Dangerous Love: Transforming Fear and Conflict at Home, at Work, and in the World, and how they apply to church leadership.

Highlights

4:00 Chad’s path to BYU Hawaii
6:30 The path to writing the book started with writing a textbook, then changing to writing it as stories that connect with people in a variety of circumstances
8:30 Written for a secular audience but doesn’t shy away from faith and religion
10:00 Connection with the Arbinger Institute
12:50 Leaders aren’t called because of their pastoral qualifications and training, but a lot of the day-to-day work in leadership revolves around conflict
14:30 Association of sin with conflict and contention leads to conflict avoidance
21:00 “Easy love” and relationships
23:00 Agape: the Greek notion of love described by Paul
25:30 Outward accommodation and keeping conflict inside is not love
26:30 The most difficult person is the person you actually need to get closest to
27:45 This is the calling of discipleship. This is what Christ does. We naturally pull away when people need us the most, when there is struggle and conflict.
30:35 Learning this concept from Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s call to love your enemies
34:15 This means I have to humbly seek to understand their experience and perspective
37:10 We need to see people we struggle with as people and not as objects. Chad’s own experiences missing this in his life and seeking to truly see at least one person each day.
44:50 The concept of “turning first”: choosing to see the person first and turning toward them, inviting them to connect
48:05 Example of the prodigal son and the father’s open arms
50:00 Example of reconciling with a man in the ward
52:00 We create justifications for loving people less, but can commit to loving more. “In the litany of sins, not loving one of our brothers and sisters is probably there at the top.”
54:10 The unsolvable conflict: you’ve probably tried all of the wrong things on the inside even as you do and say all of the “right” things on the outside
55:00 The seven why’s: Get deeply curious about people. Keep telling me why.
56:15 There can still be disagreement, and this is when you take the time and patience to seek to find the common ground
58:00 Failing to invite those labeled as the terrorist to the peacebuilding process. Unanimous decisions begin with exploring the perspective of others, as with the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
1:01:00 When people do feel heard, valued, and seen, they are willing to make adjustments. This can’t be faked and must be felt at a deeper level through the hard work of intentionally building a relationship.
1:03:35 Dangerous love is always a struggle because we are imperfect, but the key is the humility to repent and reconnect.
1:04:30 We have the same stigma around conflict that we have around sinning. Repentance is a gift and our lives should be spent repenting, using this gift to correct relationships and not simply to correct outward sins.
1:07:30 Offering grace to others just as we receive it from Christ
1:10:50 Begin to encourage this by talking about what a Zion ward would look like and how we can build the relationships we need

Links

dangerouslovebook.com
Dangerous Love: Transforming Fear and Conflict at Home, at Work, and in the World, by Chad Ford
The Anatomy of Peace: Resolving the Heart of Conflict, by The Arbinger Institute
Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the Box, by The Arbinger Institute

KaRyn Lay produces LDS Living’s This is the Gospel podcast and the Sunday on Monday study group, and hosts and writes the This is the Gospel segments. KaRyn has a degree in English Literature and a masters in Communication with an emphasis in film, and loves storytelling and the power of story. She has served in Primary, Young Women, and Relief Society presidencies.

Highlights

5:15 KaRyn’s background and path to podcasts with LDS Living
7:30 Careful with the wording in the introduction to This is the Gospel: Every one of us is practicing discipleship.
11:00 Bringing storytelling into your organization: We discount our own experiences, but everyone has a story of transformation.
14:15 Vulnerability: we are missing an opportunity for connection when we fail to share our failings and struggles because it helps us see one another the way Christ sees us.
17:30 Our first reaction might be to step back, but if we keep listening we can lean in and connect. Our brains are wired for this.
19:15 Sharing past sins: no need to give the details, but don’t leave out your mistakes. Example of the Brother of Jared.
21:00 Formulating a story

• Tell your own story, not someone else’s story.
• Create an outline of the main points of decision in your story. Set up the context, tell what happened, the results, and your takeaway.
• Determining what details to include: choose carefully, keep it short, and be real. Be curious about your own story and consider previous experiences where it was different. Don’t gloss over moments of doubt or other hard experiences.
• Find the moment of transformation and build around that. Touch lightly on the takeaway.
• Know your audience. Tell the right story to the right people. How will it be useful, interesting, and meaningful to them? Consider telling the story from the perspective of where you were at the time.

28:25 Speaking to youth: how to get them to pay attention and respond
31:30 Vulnerability with youth will increase the power of hope and connection in your message, and show youth that you can be trusted with their struggles
33:05 Doctrine & Covenants 50:21-23 Edifying and rejoicing together is a gift of storytelling, creating true communion
34:00 Developing questions to encourage youth to talk, offering them an opportunity to tell a story of their own
35:20 KaRyn’s own learning experience with believing in “inappropriate pulpit disclosure” and coming to recognize that the listener needs to offer grace and mercy to the speaker telling their story.

• Sharing difficult experiences so that the ward can share your burden.
• Vulnerability hangovers

39:45 It’s the leader’s place to gently pull the conversation back from situations where there was uncomfortable oversharing. Teach and train that this is a safe space.
41:30 Part of a leader’s stewardship is to practice sharing stories and to set the tone. We get better at telling stories by listening to stories by great storytellers such as Elder Holland.
44:30 Brene Brown: You cannot tell your story until you’re far enough removed from it that you don’t care what other people think of it. Know yourself well enough to know when you’re at that point.
46:00 Journaling about your stories to process what it means and why it’s important.
46:25 Sister Aburto’s response to the difficulty of telling her difficult stories
48:20 Boundaries for storytelling: Will it do harm for the person telling it or to the faith of someone listening? Ask for guidance with knowing what stories to tell.
51:05 The weight of ministry and understanding the love the Lord has for her through hearing the stories of others

Links

LDSliving.com/podcasts
Instagram: @thisisthegospel_podcast
Facebook: @thisisthegospelpodcast
A Deseret Book Live Conversation with Sister Reyna Aburto hosted by Yahosh Bonner
This is the Gospel Podcast, Episode 51: Weak Things Made Strong
Contact Kurt with your thoughts on storytelling in the church: https://leadingsaints.org/contact

Brother Jared Halverson has been an institute teacher at the University of Utah for the past six years. He hails originally from Los Angeles. His YouTube channel and podcast, “Unshaken,” helps people study the scriptures. He and Sister Halverson are former residents of Tennessee where Brother Halverson studied in the Divinity School at Vanderbilt University, where he is now a PhD candidate in Historical Studies with a focus on American religious history. While attending Vanderbilt, he sometimes was called upon to speak to college classes or to non-LDS congregations in the Nashville community to explain his religious beliefs, especially during the Mitt Romney presidential run. Bro. Halverson was an avid athlete in high school (football and track) and interacted with a broad spectrum of religions among his boyhood friends. He served a Spanish speaking mission.Highlights 05:20: Feeling at home as a religious minority. 07:15: Guidance to leaders confronted by tough gospel questions. Conviction brings courage. 10:30: Open your mouth and it shall be filled (D&C 84), if you are prepared. The Holy Ghost can help us remember things we have studied. Respect people’s questions. Study; learn from experience/mistakes. 14:50: Being defensive can offend the Spirit and invite contention. Unity, not just orthodoxy, is vital. Seek to understand. Sometimes being loving will earn us a second conversation with someone whereas being overly bold will not. Open your ears and the heat will evaporate (elephants). Don’t stomp around with big head and sharp tusk like elephants, which also have a thick skin. Create safe space for questions. 27:00: Be grateful for faith of others. Brother Halverson has worshiped with Quakers, Bahai, Evangelicals, Catholics, etc. Beauty is everywhere. The Church has a monopoly on a few things but not all good things. Holy envy. Some Evangelicals are concerned about “cheap grace” too. 32:00: Responding to questions about grace. Just as Martin Luther may have overcorrected in breaking away from Catholicism, have we overcorrected in not trying to understand grace? Toxic perfectionism. Serving God does not mean we are trying to earn His love. The Book of Mormon addresses grace often. Joseph Smith spoke of proving contraries. Jesus was justice and mercy combined. Broad brush answers may be just what half the class needs and not at all what another half needs at a given time. People are all over the map. It’s often difficult to have a pat answer that speaks to all of them. Ministering visits are an opportunity for one-on-one, tailor-made dialogue. 41:25: General authority discourses, of necessity, often speak to the masses who are at different places of spiritual development. Alma 42 is dissected as to Alma’s balance in teaching his son Corianton about justice and mercy. 45:32: Don’t make interfaith activities a covert missionary operation. God has made ample provision to bring us all home. Do not lessen your zeal but show an increase in patience. Cheer on people in other faiths who are doing good things. 47:30: Interfaith work. The meaning of“ward.” Be a good neighbor. Brother Halverson was clearly a religious minority in his Tennessee neighborhood. Find common goals with which to team up. Non-members sometimes don’t trust our intentions. Based on doctrine and practice, our church can be patient because of what we know about temple work and spirit world. 53:30: Come Follow Me YouTube channel “Unshaken.” Many people’s scripture study habits are changing for the better during Covid-19. Striking a balance between external resources available vs pure scripture study. The purpose of scripture study is not merely an academic exercise but to draw us closer to God. We have eternal life in Christ, not the scriptures per se. Scriptures as a signpost or burning bush to get our attention. How does the phrase “Expectation without education is frustration” apply to scripture study?

Jody Moore is a master certified life coach, well known as the host of the Better Than Happy podcast and for her live events and online coaching program, Be Bold. She also has a BA in Communications and an MA in Adult Education along with 15 years of experience as a corporate trainer and leadership coach. Jody and her husband live in Spokane, Washington, and are the parents of four children. Highlights 9:00 We hear counsel or advice and immediately see where others could use it. 11:10 We have an idea of what the "right way to be" looks like for certain roles that people fill in our lives. 12:00 Expectations are premeditated disappointment. We create manuals for others and are disappointed when they don't follow those rules. 14:00 We lose our own authority for ourselves when we blame others for our thoughts and emotions; instead we can get to compassion by recognizing they are imperfect people doing their best. 15:30 The Atonement has two parts: the saving part, and the strengthening and enabling part; we can access that strengthening and enabling power. 17:00 We are punishing ourselves and it doesn't change the other person; we also then unconsciously mirror them and we end up "doing it wrong", and that's what feels terrible. 19:30 How to recognize when you default to these negative thoughts: Examine yourself instead of others. What am I doing that might be similar to what they're doing? In what way am I doing the very thing that I'm judging this person for? 21:45 Next we start to judge ourselves. Recognize that sometimes we are also imperfect. When we can do that for ourselves, we get better at doing it for other people. 23:20 The adversary helps us take the gospel and turn it into part of our manual, and then we judge others by it, driving a wedge between us. We should look at the gospel and counsel for ourselves, not others. 27:00 David O. McKay quote: "The purpose of the gospel is to make bad men good and good men better." Susan Easton Black quote: When I go to church, I go to take the sacrament. That part's for me. But everything else, I go there thinking, What am I bringing? What can I give to other people? 29:15 Sometimes we take the principle of obedience too far; obedience should not come at the expense of our own integrity and relationship with Jesus Christ. 30:10 Be clear about the difference between the gospel and the people. If you want to believe and sustain your leaders, that is enough. The Lord will work with you where you are. 31:40 Giving people permission to be themselves. Sometimes we can manipulate people to be what we want, but then they aren't really who they are. 33:10 What if our only expectation is that they be themselves? 34:25 We can make requests of people, but it becomes a problem when we hang our emotions on whether or not they do it. 36:40 We don't need more people who are like us. We need people who think differently than we do. 38:00 We can define our own success, keeping our expectations to ourselves and holding ourselves to them because others are outside our control. 40:40 When you are the leader, you can start to wonder what others expect of you and become a people pleaser. 42:10 We step into our best version of ourselves as leaders when we try to be ourselves instead of trying to live up to the expectations of others. 44:00 Managing up: you can make a request of the person above you to try or change things. 45:00 Have boundaries and don't allow mistreatment, but don't take it too far and have expectations that diminish the quality of your life and relationships. 48:00 If you want to do something differently, do it now, wherever you are. Example story of people asking a farmer about the people in the town. You will find whatever you are looking for. Links JodyMoore.com Better Than Happy: Expectation Pain Leading Others to be Better Than Happy | An Interview with Jody Moore

At the age of 23, Michael Brody-Waite was a full-blown drug addict. Today, Michael is an acclaimed speaker, Inc. 500 entrepreneur, award-winning, three-time CEO, a leadership coach, and an author. He is on a mission to teach individuals, organizations, and communities how to how to be vulnerable, surrender the mask, and do uncomfortable work. In this podcast, he shares the leadership principles he learned through addiction recovery, which he speaks and details in his book, Great Leaders Live like Drug Addicts: How to Lead like your Life Depends on It.Highlights 8:00 Michael has a whole part of his family tree who are Latter-day Saints, and one of his Latter-day Saint cousins turned down the opportunity to date one of his NFL idols on the San Francisco 49ers. 9:00 Michael is originally from California, had a normal growing up experience there, but in college, he remembers “losing his marbles” over his good friend asking a small thing of him. That night he was confronted with the reality that he didn’t feel equipped to deal with life on life’s terms. He said something like “I don’t think I got the instructions on how to deal with life.” It was that night that he first drank alone.10:28 Michael gives a tip for all parents: If you think your kid might have the genetic proclivity to be an addict, DO NOT sit them down and tell them, “You will probably be an addict, so never do drugs or drink.” That’s going to be the first thing that child wants to do.11:28 “I can’t be an academic, I can’t be an athlete, but I think I could be a drunk.” It was one thing Michael could control over his life, he was able to make himself numb. Michael believes that addicts have an obsessive-compulsive variant that makes the person want to be able to predict how they are going to feel. He would rather choose a drug I knew would make him feel bad than one that he didn’t know how it would make him feel. It was about having control and knowing how he would feel. Since he couldn’t get that from life, he turned to addiction.13:15 In the summer of 2002, Michael’s life took a severe downturn. He was a junior in college with only one year’s worth of college credit. He was kicked out of college, kicked out of his house, fired from his job, and his car was repossessed. He was throwing up blood on this twenty-third birthday, and he knew he wouldn’t be alive for his thirtieth birthday, and maybe not even his twenty-fifth, and that didn’t sound too bad to him. His friend let him stay on his couch, but he completely overstayed his welcome, but at that point, if he didn’t stay there, he would have been homeless and Michael didn’t want that. His father would reach out and come take him to breakfast every once in a while, and his father said he just wanted to buy him a meal, but Michael knew it was because he just wanted to see if his son was still alive. He always offered to pay to send Michael to rehab, but Michael denied having a problem.15:00 Michael’s friend eventually talks him into considering rehab. “I chose to go to rehab to have 28 days of bedding and food.” But Michael hasn’t used drugs or a drop of alcohol since. It was in rehab that he was introduced to the 12-Step program, which he still participates in.16:00 Michael gives his 3 principles he has learned from living the 12-Step program:Practice rigorous authenticityWe talk about being authentic, but we don’t really practice it in leadership. How to take off the “masks” we wear to be strong?Surrender the outcomeLeaders are not taught to surrender the outcome In faith, we are taught to surrender the outcome, but not in our careerDo Uncomfortable Work“Hard work” is physical or mental, “Uncomfortable work” is emotional.We will do more physical work to avoid uncomfortable emotional work.20:00 Principle 1 allows you to see how you are hiding your true self. Principle 2 is how do I let go of “What’s going to happen when I...

Dave Ulrich is a professor at the University of Michigan and a partner at The RBL Group, a consulting firm. He studies and writes about how organizations build and use human resources, and has published over 30 books on leadership, organization, and human resources. He researches and consults with organizations around the world and has been called the “father of modern HR”. Dave is married to Wendy Ulrich. They co-authored the Wall Street Journal #1 business bestseller, The Why of Work: How Great Leaders Build Abundant Organizations that Win, and presided over the Canada Montreal Mission. Dave has also served as a bishop. Highlights 5:00 Dave's background and work 10:30 As a mission president, worked creatively to build the mission to support the missionaries and give them what they needed 12:00 Focused less on the goal and more on the people: the goal of the Church is to help you find the blessings of the gospel and they worked to help investigators find those blessings 14:10 Created themes for the month and for zone conferences; experience of getting the message wrong and making it right 18:30 Experience going out with every companionship, modeling for them and serving with them 21:30 Listen and take risks that are within the boundaries; experience of rededicating the city for a small branch instead of closing it and how that led to doing that throughout the district 24:10 The outside-in perspective: Leadership is what we help other people know and do, how we use our strengths to help other people see their strengths, the ability to create value in other people; What do those you lead need to know and do more of? What would the Lord want for them? 27:45 "So that…" We want to do ____ so that our people have ____. 30:30 Good leaders are also good anthropologists: observe those you lead, collecting data and soliciting input; experience of a prayer for a blessing at a funeral 33:50 Sharing gospel beliefs with others without being preachy 35:30 Leadership starts with who you are trying to bless and serve, not with you; what can you do to help those people fulfill those needs? 37:00 Working within the tension of policy and local leadership choices; we are a global church and we need to understand what the Lord wants for those we have leadership over 39:20 Inspiration is navigating paradox instead of solving it; experience leaving sacrament meeting to visit with a young man who had been part of a conflict 41:20 There is a pattern we follow, but there are also different ways the Lord can use us as leaders 43:30 We become vehicles through which our Heavenly Parents express love for their children 45:00 Modeling ministering, sometimes in unexpected, inspired ways 47:50 Being a doughnut-hole bishop: encouraging members to turn to those who have stewardship 49:30 Even introverts can serve; be willing to make mistakes; experience with saying the wrong thing to Elder Scott 54:00 Reflections during the pandemic: Pro athletes get better during the off season; he chose to step up instead of stepping back 56:40 Finding creative ways to bless people: Experience polishing the shoes of the missionaries 1:00:15 The Savior wants to give us power to empower others to reach their potential Links Dave Ulrich on LinkedIn The RBL Group Women in Council Meetings | An Interview with Wendy Ulrich The Why of Your Calling | An Interview with Wendy Ulrich Jessica Johnson's Leading Saints articles and podcast interviews: Finding Leaders in Your Ward Outside the Same Ten People | An Interview with Jessica Johnson Discovering Five Leadership Lessons from Jethro How To Give The Gift Of Feeling Understood: 3 Stages Of Effective Listening

Mark Johnson grew up in South Florida, studied aerospace engineering, and attended the Naval Academy. He served in the first Gulf War and then attended Harvard Business School, where he studied with Clayton Christensen. Together they started a strategy and innovation consulting firm, Innosight, and Clayton was instrumental in Mark's conversion. Mark is married to journalist and author Jane Clayson Johnson, a former guest on the podcast. He is the author of several books, including Lead from the Future: How to Turn Visionary Thinking Into Breakthrough Growth.Highlights 6:00 Starting Innosight with Clayton Christensen 6:50 Mark's conversion experience 10:30 Experience dating Jane Clayson 14:30 About Innosight 16:10 Innovation in church leadership: Defining the areas where innovation is applicable 20:20 Start with the individual: What need are they trying to fulfill? What are their barriers and how can they be overcome? 23:00 Meeting the individual where they are, seeking first to understand and having empathy 25:30 Ladder up: Where are the opportunities for me to feel included and help others? 27:00 An outside-in approach: Approach outside the Church offerings first and find out what the individual needs in their life 30:00 Younger generations have many questions and we need to offer a safe space for those questions 32:00 Dealing with constraints: don't innovate for innovation's sake, and recognize what is not open to innovation 35:45 Strategy with visionStart with offering hope and purpose, and a vision of where the organization is going—the destination Strategy is about how to get there39:50 The tyranny of the urgent vs. planning for the future: carve out time regularly for considering the future 43:35 The vision may be the same for different communities, but the strategy will change depending on the variety of situations 45:45 Recognize that the future is not as unpredictable or daunting as we might think 47:25 There is no certainty about the future, but you can get clarity about how things can unfold 49:30 Looking forward in the midst of so much disruption: create a vision for your people to offer hope and create a path 53:10 Being a leader gives perspective beyond present difficulties Links Lead from the Future: How to Turn Visionary Thinking Into Breakthrough Growth futurebackleadership.com How to Support Latter-day Saints Struggling With Depression & Anxiety | An Interview with Jane Clayson Johnson

Public Affairs is now the Global Communication Network, but while the callings have changed titles, their charge to bring the Church "out of obscurity" continues. Stake communication directors, assistants, councils, and specialists around the world serve in their communities and help people better understand who we are and what we believe, building relationships with government, faith leaders, and other community organizations. Linda and Joe Musso Linda Musso serves in Pueblo, Colorado as stake communication director and as the stake Just Serve specialist and her husband Joe Musso serves as communication specialist on the high council. Highlights 6:15 Getting started in the calling 7:25 The goal is to build relationships and they found that by finding a common interest and common problem they could avoid agendas 8:30 They had intended to serve a mission but chose to immerse themselves in this full time instead 9:20 Homelessness was reaching a crisis point in Pueblo and they reached out to the Church for assistance, working with the community to get involved 11:35 After winter, the shelter closed and they began looking for other needs to serve the homeless. They approached the county commissioner, who helped them move forward with a project for a shower/laundry trailer and they were able to make connections and create positive publicity. 17:30 They joined with an ongoing food drive ("Feed the Five Thousand") and approached other churches that had not previously been involved in the community project 20:40 Messiah presentation every year along with a new Nativity project 21:30 Arranging for the shower trailer 25:00 Working with the Father of the local Catholic Church, helping with their community garden, and joining with others in that congregation to serve in the community 28:10 Highlight of being asked to pray in an interdenominational meeting 29:50 You have to lean on Him completely for direction, and serving so many different kinds of God's children makes you want to do even more Rick McGee Rick McGee currently serves as the communication media specialist of the Southwest Missouri six stakes coordinating council, North American Southeast Area, and as his ward elders quorum president in Springfield, Missouri. He is a realtor and has made great connections in his community, which includes many evangelical churches. Highlights 32:30 Known as "the Mormon realtor" in the area; very few Church members in the community, which is at the center of the evangelical movement 35:00 Not serving as missionaries or trying to convert anyone, but creating relationships 36:15 Experience of introduction to the governor, connecting him with Kansas City Chiefs Coach Andy Reid and Elder Gifford Nielsen of the Quorum of Seventy 40:20 Networking doesn't require being an extrovert, just a desire to connect 42:10 Creating relationships with the media; experience when missionaries were all coming home due to Covid-19; linked official style guide and request to share the correct name of the Church; does tours of the building when media comes for an interview; emphasizes key points whenever doing interviews 47:00 Sharing your connections to benefit other churches as well 48:00 Family vacation destination, Branson, Missouri, is also in their stake and they are able to draw from the talent there for a Nativity event every year at the stake center. It's a little more flashy than what we usually see, but intended primarily for nonmembers; print postcards and share with other churches; includes a large luncheon event involving other churches and charity organizations 57:00 Putting together an annual award for someone in the community and set up a smaller "dinner of ten" for them 1:01:35 Experience connecting with the local Assemblies of God church, where the pastor offered a beautiful prayer for them 1:03:50 If you have connections, help the communications council by making those connections for them

Jennifer Roach earned a Masters of Divinity from the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and a Masters of Counseling from Argosy University. She was an ordained Anglican Pastor prior to her baptism 18 months ago in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.Highlights 4:20 Introduction to Jennifer. Spoke about bishops interviews at FairMormon conference. Recent interview on Latter-Day Lives. 5:43 How she was introduced to the Book of Mormon through a reporter who was covering a lawsuit she was involved in. She was happy in her church, and not "looking" for anything. Introduced to the Pearl of Great Price, particularly the Book of Moses. She thought it was fan-fiction. 8:24 Speaks of giving up ordination and position in her church. Family supported, leaders supported, community questioned. 10:24 She was a survivor of abuse in her church growing up, starting about age 14. 12:50 Discussion regarding bishop interviews and her interest and research into it. Teenagers need a safe place to talk about issues; it is vital in an "incredibly confusing world". What do teenagers need, what do abuse victims need? 14:53 Kids with best outcomes are those with three adults in their lives, besides their parents, that they can relate to. Mom and dad should still be safety net, but others are needed (James Furrows research). The importance of the "person who is at the top of the organization" knows and cares about the youth. 20:45 4 reasons why bishops should be meeting with youthIt is developmentally important to them to have these discussions. This is a high expectation religion. If they are going to stay, they need to know that they are accountable to bishop. The peers of LDS teens are getting this support and these interviews in other churches (Catholic/Protestant) Even though bishops are not specifically asking about abuse, discussions about chastity can sometimes bring out hints of abuse. 75% of abuse disclosure is accidental. Average age people disclose past abuse is 54 years old. Bishop interviews are NOT grooming. Grooming requires intent. Teenagers need a place for self-determination, to know they are accountable, so they can grow into their own faith and not relying on parents.45:15 Further discussion about the importance of 3 adults, besides parents, in each youth life. Help them to understand and discuss "here is what you are going through, and how does that apply". James Furrows research shows that for best outcome, one of the adults should be the "top person" in the organization. 47:20 Advice for a leader that wants to develop better relationships with youth: be aware in group, small group setting and listen to them, help them contextualize what is going on with their world around them. 50:17 Any caution for leaders? We have to do the gymnastics of the rules (not alone with youth, etc.), but that is not the same thing as being the kind of adult in a kid's life they can open up too. You are protecting them, but also need to be available to them. The interest is, "what does the youth need?", not curiosity of the adults needs. Follow the youth. Create a culture that abuse can be talked about, and be safe to discuss 56:20 Final encouragement: Be brave enough to ask youth the hard questions. Do not abandon those kids who are struggling in a world that is far more sexualized than in the past. Be willing to talk to them. Links Latter-day Lives Podcast with Jennifer Roach From Anglican Minister to Relief Society Sister – Interview with Jennifer Roach

The Refuge is an advocacy group for sexual assault victims located in Orem, Utah. In this episode, Kurt discusses with Lori Jenkins, Stephanie Heaps and Bethany Crisp about how we as leaders can recognize and help sexual assault victims. Highlights 3:30 What is the Refuge? 6:15 In Utah sexual assault is the one crime that we're above the national average. 9:15 When you first hear about sexual abuse start by believing the victim. 11:15 Remember what your role is: to connect them to Christ. 12:15 0% of victims chose to be victimized. They need love and support and are never to blame. 13:30 When someone first comes to you and they have done something wrong, it's not the time to talk about that. 14:45 The first person a victim tells about the assault sets the tone for their recovery. 16:45 Rapists cause rape. It can happen to anyone. 17:30 Don't question why they didn't fight back. 18:15 Submission is not consent. 19:30 90% of the time the victim knows the perpetrator. 20:00 When defining consent, coercion can play a part. 20:45 What is trauma brain? 23:45 Things leaders can say to a victim. 24:15 Reflective listening 26:30 Many victims are wondering if they are to blame or need to repent. 27:30 Become acquainted with services that can help victims. 31:00 Code R exam 33:00 Plan B pill that can be given after a rape and what it does. 34:00 We need victims to know there are resources and that they are free. 35:00 Reporting the assault and what is required. 35:40 Turn to the handbook and the church's counseling and legal line: overuse it! 37:00 What to do when a victim doesn't want to report the assault. 39:45 Going to the hospital doesn't mean they have to report the assault. 40:15 Ask what is concerning to them and what you can do to help. 40:30 Rape trauma syndrome 40:50 Phase 1- The crisis 41:30 Phase 2- Initial adjustment 42:15 Phase 3- Resolution phase 43:20 The phases aren't always linear. 43:40 What not to say to victims. 44:00 Don't question their choices. 46:00 Do not share details or information with others even if you think the victim should tell them. 48:00 Allow the victim to make decisions. 49:00 Sexual assault can happen to men too. 50:30 Loved ones of the victim are affected and also may need to be referred to resources to help them. 53:30 What to do when a membership council is involved for the perpetrator. Don't retraumatize the victim. 58:00 Kurt's experience with a sexual assault victim. Links The Center for Women and Children in Crisis

Chris Yadon is the executive Director of the Younique Foundation in Lehi, Utah, and a former stake president. Their mission is to "inspire hope in women who were sexually abused as children or adolescents by providing healing services through educational retreats, support groups, and online resources. [They] educate and empower parents and caregivers to protect children from sexual abuse through community and online resources. [They also] advocate for open discussions about sexual abuse through community dialogue and social awareness." The Younique Foundation was founded by the same founders of the Younique Beauty Company due to their desire to fight against sexual abuse and it’s devastating consequences. Highlights 2:20 Background of the Younique Foundation. 4:27 How did you get involved in working with Non-profit organizations?“We need to become experts in combating pornography.” Finding a connection between pornography and sexual abuse or exploitation.7:05 Statistics – realizing the magnitude of sexual abuse1:4 girls and 1:6 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18.9:00 What constitutes abuse? “any unwanted coercion or force into sexual activity” 10:50 Where does sexual abuse come from? Who is doing it?80-90% of sexual abuse is coming from trusted family relationships in other words someone in the family or someone the family knows. 10-20% is perpetrated by unknown individuals aka “stranger danger” What is often uncomfortable and hard for families to realize is that it is usually people in your circle ( ie.coach, teacher, uncle, older sibling, older sibling’s friend, a person at church, etc…)12:00 Other foundational knowledge for leaders in the church.It happens in the church. It happens to church members. It happens to families that are engaged with their children. As a parent, you can do everything “right” and it can still happen. It happens in every race, religion, culture, every socio-economic group. The statistics do not change from one group to another.13:15 Is there a correlation of sexual abuse to the church’s culture, structure, or habits of the church?The church as an organization has been putting a tremendous effort into addressing and preventing abuse in positive ways. How individual congregations can apply the church’s policies and guidelines can be more problematic. Sexual abuse is typically a crime of opportunity. 16:00 When a leader stands up against abuse it gives members permission to speak openly about their experiences. Distinguishing between a secondary issue (behavior) versus the primary issue (trauma).20:00 Combating pornographyIn almost every case of pornography addiction or compulsion, there were some early trauma issues (death, divorce, sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect) A church leader’s role is not to combat the root trauma but to refer members to professionals who can23:10 As a leader how approachable am I? How do I start talking about it?Have conversations of healthy sexuality that include sexual abuse as part of that conversation. Be direct. Educate parents on how to educate their children. The use of professionals in committees to aid leaders.28:05 How do leaders get to root issues so members can receive the proper help they need?Listen first. Don’t dig into details initially. Ask good secondary open-ended questions. ( “tell me about when this started”, “What was going on in your life the first time this happened”, “tell me more”, “help me to understand”, etc.)30:00 3 things a survivor of sexual abuse needs to hear.You are not crazy. I believe you. There is hope and healing. Resources that can help.32:50 Repentance at its core is change.You can’t stay at the behavior level and expect true and lasting change34:10 What can youth leaders, Elders Quorum, or Relief Society Presidents do to help?

Brad Agle, the author of The Business Ethics Field Guide, is a professor of Ethics and Leadership in the Marriott School of Business Management at BYU and has also taught at the University of Pittsburgh. In this podcast, he discusses how ethical dilemmas can come up in the church setting and how to better approach them.Highlights 05:31 GRAY AREAS Ethical gray areas come when values conflict. He teaches practical tools for prioritizing. 06:46 His well-received book, The Business Ethics Field Guide, started with collecting thousands of written accounts of ethical dilemmas faced by executive MBA students in North America, São Paulo, and Prague. 07:23 Thirteen types of fundamental ethical dilemmas09:12 REPAIR As a church member, knowing how to repent provides a really good formula to help you repair when you or someone in your organization has done wrong: recognize what you did wrong, ask for forgiveness, provide restitution if you can, and resolve never to do it again. People don’t often do all these steps in repairing harm done to others.10:54 SHOWING MERCY Church members who have served in bishoprics or stake presidencies have particularly been trained well in the appropriateness of showing mercy from experiences serving in a Church Membership Council (formerly known as a Disciplinary Council). In these councils, showing mercy is balanced with ensuring the good name of the Church and innocent victims are protected.13:00 CONFLICT OF INTEREST In the church, we’re not well trained for situations when we are in two different roles, such as business positions and church leadership.14:25 MAKE A PROMISE AND THE WORLD CHANGES We church members teach each other that we keep our promises: we keep covenants and keep our word (e.g. a bishop gets an emergency call which conflicts with a commitment to a family member). Church leaders must teach boundaries for marriages and family and how to make tough decisions: sometimes you need to say no.17:29 Imperfect leaders make mistakes18:11 INTERVENTION DILEMMA (or Counseling Together) How do we balance sustaining leaders with the command to council together in decision making? When do we sustain revelation and when do we push back by speaking up for something we think is wrong?19:24 SCENARIOS An Intervention Dilemma (or Standing up to Power): As a bishop who lived close to the site of a new stake center, Brad was delegated by a beloved stake presidency to coordinate with Church Facilities, the general contractor, and the local architect. The first plan from Church Facilities had the kitchen close to the bishop’s office and chapel instead of the cultural center. He proposed the change to the stake presidency but was denied. A bishop serving in the one other building built according to this new plan agreed that a change was needed from personal experience, so Brad asked again and was denied again. The switch would cost about $1,500 for a multi-million dollar building that you want to get right. On the third time requesting a change to the stake presidency, he came with the change request from the whole ward council, and they finally granted the change: he wore them down like the petitioner to the unjust judge. Meanwhile, the granted change actually ended up saving $500.24:47 QUESTIONS for the 13 DILEMMAS in The Business Ethics Field Guide The book provides examples of and pitfalls for each of the thirteen dilemmas. It also includes actions for prevention as well as questions. Some questions for an intervention dilemma include these: (1) Are you the right person to intervene? Intervention is necessary because of a violation of ethics, or harm may be done to people: i. e. we want to spend sacred funds wisely, we don’t want to create situations where someone is going to feel bad because they spilled juice all the way down the hall and cost the church lots of money due to the strange placement of the kitchen.

In this How I Lead episode, Kurt talks with two stake Relief Society presidents about their experiences and the principles of leadership they have learned while serving. Angela Griffiths Angela Griffiths lives in Sale, UK, near Manchester, England, where she has served as a stake Relief Society president for four years. She is an IT teacher and also has a degree in educational leadership and management, and has also served as a stake Primary president and stake Young Women president. Highlights 4:25 About her stake in the Manchester area 5:20 Had not been a ward Relief Society president first 6:40 Principle 1: The importance of being organizedRegular monthly meetings with minutes, planning ahead, seeing what training is needed for the wards and being proactive9:40 Principle 2: The importance of relying on prayerRecognizing inspiration and being flexible to follow it 11:45 Brainstorming ideas and creating mind maps 12:45 Praying to help the sisters become more unified: inspired to have a Relief Society camp for three days with a variety of activities17:10 Manchester pageant: change management and getting people on board 23:15 Working with the stake presidency to plan the ward conferences for the year 24:30 Meeting with the bishops, preparing to reopen church meetings 26:15 Learned to rely more on her counselors Jennifer Coleman Jennifer Coleman lives in Rutland, Vermont, where she serves as a stake Relief Society president. Originally from Seattle, Washington, she and her husband also serve in mission leadership in the New Hampshire Manchester Mission. Highlights 30:50 Receiving the call to serve 32:10 Church experience and also serving in the mission 34:00 Coordinating council of stake Relief Society presidents 37:10 About her stake and visiting each unit 39:30 Principle 1: Speak up in meetings 42:00 Principle 2: When discussing a topic or challenge with your presidency, before telling them what you think, ask them first what they think 43:25 Principle 3: Decide what is of most value to you and your leadership and don’t try to duplicate what others have doneChoice to visit the units more frequently instead of putting their energy into a project the previous presidency had established46:45 Not being afraid to fail Simplifying projects 50:00 Principle 4: When problem-solving, you may need to take some non-traditional approaches Suggestion to use a talking stick to keep sisters who talk over others in meetings Having difficult conversations 55:15 Principle 5: Often the little things you do as a leader are much more important than the big thingsDecision to put more energy into one-on-one interactions than into big events

To register for the LGBT Saints Virtual Summit for FREE CLICK HEREThis episode highlights four principles of seeking out and listening to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and features clips of interviews from the LGBT Saints Virtual Summit. Highlights 3:40 Seeking out the LGBTQ Latter-day SaintKurt’s experience being sought out as a bishop Bishop’s responsibility "to seek out the poor and provide assistance to those in need" Being proactive rather than reactive10:10 Principle 1: Find and Listen11:00 Carl Hull interview clip: seeking out an old colleague to listen to their story 18:15 Making it real by sitting down with and listening to LGBTQ individuals 19:00 Listening to transgender people19:45 Principle 2: Start a Dialogue20:20 Experience of a Young Women leader who was asked by one young woman in her ward to leave her alone because the young woman is bisexual and “by your standards I’m already going to hell” 23:20 We have to stay ahead of these conversations, especially with the youth 24:10 President Fersch interview clip: What starting a dialogue looks like 31:50 One heart and one mind: making a welcoming place for those individuals33:55 Principle 3: Stand in the TensionKurt’s regret for not reaching out to a gay ward member 34:45 The tension is between love and law: show love while respecting doctrines 36:30 Ty Mansfield clip: the difficulty of holding the tension 38:35 Elder Oaks quote 41:00 It’s in the tension that safety is created 42:30 Scott and Becky Mackintosh clip: attending a gay wedding 45:50 A bishop’s wrestle with attending his transgender brother’s wedding48:00 Principle 4: Being an Advocate for Christ48:40 Offering hope-filled messages 50:25 Mixed-orientation marriage: not the unicorn some people believe it is 52:00 We can be alive in Christ and thrive in Christ, even in this context 52:25 Resources are availableLinks LGBT Saints Virtual Summit North Star Church resources: same-sex attraction and transgender Loving Our LGBT Brethren & Sisters | An Interview with Bishop Carl Hull

This is one of the 20+ interviews that will be a part of the LGBT Saints Virtual Summit. It all begins on September 8th. To register for this online conference for FREE CLICK HEREBlake Fisher works in the Brigham Young University Office of Success and Inclusion, offering confidential support to people who, for various reasons, feel marginalized. The goal is to help student body members feel unity. Previously he worked in the BYU University Relations office. One of his main areas of focus is helping LGBT students. He is a returned missionary.Highlights 3:24: Blake’s personal experience helps him relate. How he has navigated that journey before, during and since his mission. Positive things Church leaders, family and friends have done to support him and help him feel valued and loved. Dealing with feelings of denial/shame/perfectionism. 10:50: Learning to value certain life challenges and feeling unconditional love from God and others. 12:00: The Success and Inclusion office provides support for individuals on campus facing challenges re: race, religion, gender, sexuality. Their support group may be otherwise small. How students are referred to this office. Why go there and not to a therapist? Guiding those who perceive discrimination. 17:00: The vast majority of stories he hears about interactions with Church leaders are positive, but occasionally the perception is that the interaction did not go well. 18:20: How Church leaders can manage expectations when inviting someone to the office and during the meeting in the office. Reducing anticipatory tension. Responsibilities of both parties, i.e. Church leader and the ward member. Increasing the comfort level. Active listening is vital. Don’t offer canned responses. People want to feel understood. Drawing on the principles of listening espoused in Preach My Gospel. Good listening techniques. 33:13: Leaders and counselors can show vulnerability and develop skill as to how to “prime the pump” to help someone who feels exhausted emotionally by just showing up. Don’t make them feel rushed. 39:49: Post-meeting anxieties. The individual may need reassurance in the days following a crucial conversation meeting. Helping those counseled to feel valued for who they are and not just based on certain decisions/behaviors they may have thus far exhibited. 44:00: Vulnerability hangover—the person feeling exhausted after they have shared deep things. Ensuring they see that what they told you hasn’t changed for the worse your feelings about them as a person. Body language can make them feel awkward. They may feel uncertainty regarding the next step after sharing. Manage expectations. Don’t exhibit passive-aggressive avoidance. Good intentions usually show. If they withdraw seek them out. 48:40: Having faith in God, not in a specific outcome is helpful when the future feels otherwise uncertain or hopeless. Avoiding comparisons with others. Journeys are individual. Focus on Christ now. 53:38: Sitting in the tension between faith and sexuality. Don’t feel your only way out is to get rid of one of your sources of tension. If we overly focus on not having any tension, we may give up something important. Feel the joy of Christ. A leader can sit with someone in the tension even if he/she can’t fix it. 58:40: Leaders can discern and focus on the light in someone’s life. Light leads to more light. They need to know that if their choices lead to hard things, you are still there. Don’t give the feeling you are ending the relationship just because they didn’t go the way you had hoped. Maintain a sustained interest. 1:03:50: Spend time with LGBT people to get comfortable with them and other things will fall into place. Information and Links The BYU Office of Success and Inclusion is located in the Abraham O. Smoot Building (ASB) C-374. Hope Works: Mourn With Those That Mourn Transcript Kurt: Welcome back to another session of the LGBT Saints Virtual Summit.

This is one of the 20+ interviews that will be a part of the LGBT Saints Virtual Summit. It all begins on September 8th. To register for this online conference for FREE CLICK HERERichard Ostler is an active member of the Church, a former YSA Bishop, and host of the Listen, Learn, and Love Podcast. Richard teaches Christ-based principles to respect, understand, and support God's LGBTQ+ children. Highlights 5:00 How the Listen, Learn and Love Podcast came about and why 7:00 50-slide presentation created to have a framework for faithful discussions: 8:45 President M. Russell Ballard: “I want anyone who is a member of the church who is gay or lesbian to know I believe you have a place in the kingdom and recognize that sometimes it may be difficult for you to see where you fit in the Lord’s Church, but you do. We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we have done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord.” 10:00 Singles ward bishop experience: felt he needed to restart 10:48 S. Michael Wilcox: “In some matters, it is better to be intellectually uncertain rather than superficially sure. This will still leave us with a great deal to be certain about, while maintaining a humility to learn.” 11:00 Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf: “Brothers and sisters, as good as our previous experience may be, if we stop asking questions, stop thinking, stop pondering, we can thwart the revelations of the Spirit. Remember, it was the questions young Joseph asked that opened the door for the restoration of all things. We can block the growth and knowledge our Heavenly Father intends for us. How often has the Holy Spirit tried to tell us something we needed to know but couldn't get past the massive iron gate of what we thought we already knew?” 11:55 Alma extending a baptism invitation at the Waters of Mormon 12:35 Basic vocabulary definitions 13:50 His mission experience changing the culture of their message around the Church of England 15:20 Uchtdorf “Fear rarely is the power to change our hearts and will never transform us into people who love what is right and want to obey. Never look down on any other religion or group of people.” 15:40 Brene Brown: “Common enemy intimacy is the opposite of true belonging. If the bond we share is simply we hate the same people, the intimacy we experience is intense, gratifying, and an easy way to discharge outrage and pain. It’s not fuel, however, for real long-term connection.” 16:40 Instagram post that changed the direction of his ministry, posted by a mother whose son died by suicide 17:45 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them (1 Nephi 10:19) 18:10 Quick statements he shares in firesides: the Church does not teach being gay is a choice, or that same-sex attraction can be changed or that should be demanded, and does do not recommend heterosexual marriage as a universal solution 20:10 Can a person be openly lesbian, gay, or bisexual and be an active member of the Church? Yes (Church statements) 20:35 Ben Schilaty: “I wish I could label myself as I please. The times when I didn’t identify as gay were the hardest, darkest times in my life. Choosing to identify as gay has been wonderful and freeing. My belief and commitment to the restored gospel have not changed since I started labeling myself as gay. I live Church standards as much as always. But what has changed is I don’t hate myself anymore.” 21:35 Quote from the mother of a transgender child: Satan resides in their shame and in our fears. He is succeeding because he is keeping us from coming together as the body of Christ. 22:40 Seminary teacher and mother of a gay son, speaking to seminary teachers: Please be aware you likely have an LGBTQ student or two in every class.

Leading Saints started in 2010 when Kurt Francom had an idea. He had served as an elders quorum president, in a bishopric, and then as a high priest group leader, but he felt like he had not met his own expectations as a leader. In this podcast, Kurt shares his journey founding the platform that has grown into a 501c(3) nonprofit organization sharing leadership principles to support lay leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He also shares seven misconceptions that members have about church leadership, learned over the course of those ten years. Highlights 5:00 Kurt’s experiences that led up to starting what has become Leading Saints, and how it went from there to what it is now10:20 Blogging at LeadingLDS 14:50 Started podcasting in 2014, founded the nonprofit in 201616:50 Frequently asked questionsMemorable moments or bloopers: Mack Wilberg episode that didn’t happen, emails from random leaders who have benefitted from what we are doing 20:00 Favorite episode: interview with his second counselor, Heath 21:40 Has the Church ever approached you about leadership training? It’s not in the mission of the Church to produce more effective leaders, but there is a place for third-party organizations like Leading Saints to support the members and the mission 28:00 Where do you see Leading Saints in ten years? Producing an annual conference30:30 Seven misconceptions members have about Church leadership31:40 Misconception 1: Revelation comes through feelings 37:40 Misconception 2: Scriptures and handbooks are all we need to lead 40:45 Misconception 3: Meetings lead to progress 47:25 Misconception 4: Your ward wants solutions, not problems 50:30 Misconception 5: Leaders are spiritual parole officers 53:05 Misconception 6: Leaders receive promptings of their call before they are called 1:00:00 Misconception 7: Your authority, calling, or title allows you to lead1:05:45 The final question: How has being a leader made you a better disciple of Jesus Christ? Links 7 Self-Sabotaging Habits of Latter-day Saint Lay Leaders (and What to Do About Them) What I Learned About Leadership When My 2nd Counselor Left the Church Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, by Daniel Pink 7 Unbreakable Rules of Church Meetings Articulating Problems Will Motivate Solutions | “Come Down” And Lead Pride and the Priesthood, by Dieter F. Uchtdorf lifestar.leadingsaints.org Become a Core Leader

In this How I Lead podcast episode, Kurt talks with two women who are members of their stake Young Women presidencies, who share their experiences and the leadership principles guiding them. Carrie Miller Carrie Miller lives in Boise, Idaho, where she is serving as a stake Young Women president. She previously served as an advisor in her stake Young Women presidency and as a ward Young Women president. Highlights 5:15 Transitioning into serving as stake Young Women president and choosing counselors 10:20 Using MarcoPolo app with her presidency to prepare for and keep their meetings succinct Leadership Principles: 13:30 Communication is keyBullet-point text prior to sending out an email to ward presidencies Calendar and reminders Group texting for short updates Monthly individual check-ins to be available to ward presidenciesHelping ward Young Women presidents20:35 Offer to write letters to individual young women as needed 22:25 Twice-annual trainings with ward presidencies Look for helpful resources and pass them along 26:40 Presidents lunch twice a year31:40 Trust in your counselorsStudied talk Rise to your Call, by Henry B. Eyring, and the book Counseling with Your Councils, by M. Russell Ballard 32:55 Experience of tabling an idea and later asking youth council what they needRachelle Sorensen Rachelle Sorensen lives in Provo, Utah, where she serves as the first counselor in her stake Young Women presidency, and has previously served as a ward Young Women president and in the Primary. Highlights 40:20 Passionate about youth and teens Leadership principles 41:45 Create a visionCaptain Moroni and the Title of Liberty: the difference it made to remember their vision It takes leaders to turn a theme into a vision 44:35 Identifying the strengths of the youth and tying a vision to those: take the time to get to know them and teach them about leadership53:50 Remembering PurposeIdentifying the why: what are the purposes of these activities? 56:30 Sometimes the purpose is just to have fun57:20 CommunicateIdentifying who is in charge of what Recognizing that we may be mistaking an ability problem for a motivation problem1:02:25 Experiencing emotions, processing emotions, and feeling the Spirit Links MarcoPolo app Pres Eyring’s observations about meetings: News Conference | Summary Article A story about unity in councils and meetings: “We Have Not Left This Room…” |Leader to Leader Episode 11 The Inspired Teen Raising Inspired Teens Facebook group Now, Discover Your Strengths, by Marcus Buckingham viacharacter.org character strengths quiz

Greg McKeown has dedicated his career to discovering why some people and teams break through to the next level—and others don’t. The definitive treatment of this issue is addressed in his New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller, Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less. Greg hosts The Essentialism Podcast and is the CEO of McKeown Inc., with clients including Adobe, Apple, Google, Facebook, Pixar, Salesforce.com, Symantec, Twitter, VMware and Yahoo!. Originally from London, England, he now lives in Calabasas, California with his wife, Anna, and their four children, where he serves as an elders quorum president. Summary 4:50 - Greg’s leadership journey since being a bishop in Menlo Park four years ago 5:35 - What is Greg’s ward doing to adapt to the COVID restrictions? 6:32 - Go small, lessons learned from being bishop Greg applies to working as elder’s quorum president 8:10 - Celebrate every success helped increase home teaching statistics; no need to repeat failed scolding – it doesn’t work 9:59 - Change is not the same as progress; abrupt change is false economy; better to avoid predictable problems of big changes 10:31 - Family history small change was to ask people to pray for ancestors every day and sign in to family search for thirty days 13:13 - A tiny beginning helped people rise to whatever level or time commitment they were able to; efforts to inspire members to greater heights just overwhelms them and does not produce more family history 13:55 - In leadership taking small steps is underutilized; people feel overwhelmed and don’t start; as a leader, look for the tiniest thing we can do in one minute to improve in this area and celebrate that action 15:12 - It’s better to take one minute’s step of progress to talk about it an hour and then do nothing 16:10 - We become more professional in talking about the subject, but not in doing it 17:31 - Have a grand vision, but match it with the tiniest steps; the grandest the vision, the smaller the first step 18:08 - We ought not let courageous moments cloud from our vision what was going on the majority of the time 18:50 - Greg reflects on his time as bishop 19:23 - Human suffering is universal 19:55 - If you think someone is fine, it’s probably because you don’t actually know them very well 20:19 - We should build relationships that let us become aware of other people’s suffering; show consistent kindness 21:47 - You learn people who didn’t appear to struggle are struggling 22:54 - Small things, being a friend, asking questions, consistency 24:15 - What can bishops do when a member brings suffering to his office? 26:45 - It’s very easy when creating things to not be honest about what can realistically be accomplished by a ward council 27:39 - Can you put the plan on a week’s calendar? 28:35 - Ward councils can become “siloed” and focused on their own groups 29:52 - Greg turns the tables and questions Kurt 31:08 - What is something that is essential to Kurt that he is underinvesting in? 33:07 - Kurt describes his concerns about connecting with his children 34:24 - Why does it matter? 35:35 - Predictable problems could be insured against 36:52 - What does measurable success in fathering look like to you, Kurt? 38:32 - What’s the additional work you need to do to close the gap between what you’re doing now and what success would feel like? 40:52 - What specifically does that look like? 42:43 - When is enough, enough? 44:59 - What is you were to ask your oldest children how am I doing? 47:24 - Tiny mechanisms help us change 48:54 - It’s easier to get trapped into grandiose commitments 49:36 - People are dealing with all kinds of unexpected challenges 50:26 - Brain chemistry and response to challenge/fear -- a narrowing of options to fight, flight, or freeze 51:46 - Must trick the brain into not responding with fear by making very small changes 52:21 - There is no upside in making people have more fear or guilt

Andrew Marshall served a mission in Portugal as well as a welfare service mission in Salt Lake City with his wife, Ariel. He is the Director of Leadership Development at the Partnership for Public Service, a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that strives for a more effective government for the American people. Andrew is also currently serving in the stake presidency of the Washington, D.C. stake. Highlights 10:20 Effective leaders make a difference wherever they are 15:15 You have to get close to an organization to really understand what it is doing on the individual level: bureaucracies are filled with individuals doing remarkable things 20:15 Zooming out and remembering the principle of stewardship when working inside a bureaucracy 22:50 Liz Wiseman's concept of Multipliers and Jim Collins' research into level five leaders: people working tirelessly but it's not about them; empowering others and getting out of their way 24:40 Lao Tsu: When all is said and done, the people look around and think they did it all themselves; how much of your service is about you? 26:20 Experience with the leadership transition after the sudden passing of a stake president 28:20 Ward and branch councils need to see themselves as enterprise leaders across the system, working collectively; much of this comes from the facilitation habits of the leaders 29:15 Becoming a facilitator: Ask questions instead of giving directions, listen instead of talking, think about the talents of the people in the room and how you can allow them to use them 31:40 How much are you thinking about yourself or getting credit? You are the Lord's steward and the credit comes in that relationship 34:10 Ego leads to a failure to listen; happiness is the extension of self, joy is the merger of self; holiness of heart protects from the ego 37:30 If we serve as President Nelson has asked us to, there would be joy in every congregation 39:30 Thinking about the why, the motivations of the individual members 44:35 Stewardship is taking care of the things with which we are blessed from God 45:40 "The passing through" 47:50 The key characteristics of steward leaders include deep humility and fierce will: study the Savior's leadership 49:50 Spend some time studying the handbook section on leadership (4.2) 52:40 Getting out of the programs and activities to create generational impact 54:10 Key behaviors of leaders who practice good stewardship: watch President Nelson's leadership practices; "the cause" as a constant north star Links The Partnership for Public Service Public service leadership model Liz Wiseman podcasts at Leading Saints Kahlil Gibran poem: On Children

Whitney Johnson is one of the leading business thinkers in the world and an expert on disruptive innovation. An award-winning author of Disrupt Yourself, and Build an "A" Team, Whitney is also a world-class keynote speaker, frequent lecturer for Harvard Business School’s Executive Education, and an executive coach and advisor to CEOs. In her third podcast with Leading Saints, she talks about learning from Clayton Christensen, how we are all feeling disruption now, and how we can turn that to innovation. Whitney is currently serving in a stake Relief Society. Highlights Whitney discusses how she has been re-inventing her business model as she cannot travel to do keynote presentations but has to find out how to focus on individuals rather than businesses. She provides background into the relationship with Clayton Christensen, who recently passed. He was an expert in disruption theory – about how little things can take over the world (i.e. telephone, Netflix, etc.) Her work with him started in the church public affairs, and developed into business collaboration. She loved how he was the same at work and at church.12:56 – What would Clayton Christensen want to talk about if he were being interviewed? He would discuss disruptive innovation in a gospel setting. He felt that the only metrics that matter are how we influence other people.15:17 – At his funeral, it was reported that Brother Christensen's initial teaching reviews as a professor were not great; in order to improve, he prayed before EVERY class and he was better able to serve his students. His goal was to do good, no matter the assignment.16:50 – Whitney speaks of disruption in regards to current leadership/callings. In her stake Relief Society position, since they can’t do local trainings with leaders, they would focus on Zoom meetings with specific questions that would help direct the discussion and promote sharing.23:52 – What is the S-curve in a calling? We start at the bottom, and as we get going we climb the first curve, improve our abilities as we reach the second curve to reach the top where we are doing so well, and then we get released. The pandemic is causing a brand new S-curve in every position.26:00 – Examples of how our constraint will become a tool of innovation (missionary work, teaching, videos etc).Taking the right risks, creating vs. competing, play where “no one else is playing”; What can I re-create, rather than “what was it supposed to be?” A favorite quote: “Amateurs compete, professionals create.”31:33 How can this disruption help me find my way forward? Disruptive innovation is about stepping back so we can slingshot forward. As we are forced “back”, we need to reflect, “How will I define my Covid time?”-Write in a journal-Keep the Sabbath day holy. Use Sunday as a “step back” so that Monday you can “slingshot forward”35:45 How do I “step back”? Whitney describes her process of putting all work email on pause Saturday night at 9pm until Monday at noon. She wants to make Sunday a “delight” by writing in her journal, reading, praying, and doing family history38:20 Journal writing tips: at the end of the day write down the best of the day and the worst of the day – and then explain to what extent you were “creating or competing” and how to do better tomorrow. Every 50 days you should look back and reflect on all the lessons.40:54 – Whitney likes to record all priesthood blessings and transcribe them so that they can become part of her “canon of scripture”43:12 – Discussion about current race issues, and the question of “how will I be changed” We can contribute if we are humble. She expresses gratitude for the Atonement – we can’t repair the hurt of the past but all can be wiped away because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Links Clayton Christensen's books Dare Dream Do: Remarkable Things Happen When You Dare To Dream Disrupt Yourself: Putting the Power of Disruptive Innovation to Work

David Butler is a religious educator at Utah Valley University. He also cohosts the popular YouTube scripture study channel Don't Miss This with Emily Belle Freeman and is the author of many religious books, including Almighty: How the Most Powerful Being in the Universe Is Also Your Loving Father, Redeemer: Who He Is and Who He Will Always Be, and soon-to-be-published Spirit: The Gift that Connects You to Heaven. David has previously served as a bishop. He and his wife Jenny are the parents of six children. Highlights 11:00 The "rules" of the church and do they really need to be that way 12:45 What if we put people first in the church? 15:30 Begin with people and purposes 17:30 How to focus on people as a leader 20:30 Making sacrament meeting an experience with God and a place that people want to come back to 22:00 Having a vision with sacrament meeting 23:30 Splitting the ward into groups and teaching about the Savior and the importance of sacrament meeting. 30:30 High council speakers 31:30 Stake presidency respecting the role of the Bishop 35:00 How do I show devotion to God? 37:00 We all worship differently 39:00 Come follow me and Don't Miss This 40:00 Finding grace in Come follow me 42:00 We shouldn't worry about how we're doing Come follow me but worry about meeting our family's needs 44:30 Come follow me takes planning 47:00 Our culture of shame 48:30 "God isn't disappointed in what we haven't done" 49:00 Teaching in a position of grace 50:30 "People who feel loved, loved well" 53:00 Don't confuse salvation with discipleship 56:00 Fear of God compared to fear of sin 58:00 Satan teaches us to fear God just like with Adam and Eve 1:01:00 God's government is a family 1:08:10 BONUS INTERVIEW with Anthony Sweat Links Don't Miss This with Emily Belle Freeman and David Butler Instagram: @mrdavebutler @dontmissthisstudy Books by David Butler Y Religion podcast Seekers Wanted | An Interview with Anthony Sweat Church Doctrine, Policy, & Leadership | An Interview with Prof. Anthony Sweat

Layne Gneiting has cycled 38 countries, led bicycle treks through 18 countries, dream-managed for a multi-million dollar company, and taught (and currently teaches) Leadership and Integrative Thinking at Arizona State University. 11 years ago, Layne did a coast-to-coast bicycle trip with his family and opened up horizons for himself. Today he merges principles of leadership with cycling in various places throughout the world, packing life experiences into 11 days to create the conditions of change.David Fielding is a stake president in Indiana. His brother encouraged him to join one of Layne's cycling trips and he finally agreed and arranged to go with the group to Spain. What he learned in his preparation and adventure there transformed him and his approach to leadership.Highlights 5:35 What Layne’s cycling trips do for leaders 8:30 How David got involved in this trip to Spain 12:20 Learning happens in action, in the body Seven Principles 15:15 Principle 1: VisionHow vision was part of Layne’s experience biking across America It begins with determining what you truly desire 20:30 David’s experiences training for the trip and how it created his vision 29:20 The difference between vision and goals 30:50 People can’t walk in a straight line without vision33:25 Principle 2: RiskRest/play and the essence of creation: lessons learned off the planned path 39:20 David’s elders quorum experience following Hurricane Katrina 42:00 Rejection therapy45:20 Principle 3: Simplification leading to flowGetting ego, plans, and control out of the way 48:20 David’s trek experience with pondering and journaling alone53:20 Principle 4: FlowCreating flow through journaling; writing by the Spirit56:20 Principle 5: EndurancePartnering with the mountain and harmonizing instead of slogging it out to the end 1:00:40 David’s trek experience with resistance and choosing the hills1:05:20 Principle 6: Fusion“Every horizon bears a thread of gold”: all perspectives have value and inform ours; being willing to not be quiet 1:08:20 President Eyring’s observations about how the apostles counsel and debate in meetings 1:12:45 “If we are united, we all things can do”1:14:40 Principle 7: CompassionCompassion is inclusion: reach out and include people in genuine, validating ways 1:16:55 David’s experience learning compassion and openness from a family who took them in1:22:30 Changes in David’s leadership after his experience on the trek through Spain“We are only going to pass this way once”1:26:20 Creating your own experience: GUIDE (Generative - Unpredictable - Immersive - Daring - Enticing) 1:28:00 How these experiences have made both Layne and David better disciples of Jesus Christ Links wayofthehero.com Zen in the Art of Archery, by Eugen Herrigel Pres Eyring's observations about meetings: News Conference | Summary Article

Michael Newton Michael lives in Kaysville, Utah, with his wife SaraJean. He grew up in the Bountiful/Centerville area of Davis County, Utah, attended Brigham Young University, and studied law in Illinois. They lived in New York City where he practiced law before returning to Utah. He now does legal counsel and strategy for a company in the Salt Lake valley. He has served as a counselor in four bishoprics and in Young Men and elders quorum presidencies. He served in the bishopric in his former ward, which recently split. Highlights 6:50 About Michael's current ward in Kaysville and how the ward split when it was formed Principles 10:20 1. Candid counsel: saying what needs to be said; speaking up without worrying about what others think 12:20 The leader can help by being willing to listen to everyone's perspectives and to make decisions afterward 14:20 Having the conversation with the leader so they know that you will be candid and push back a little, testing and asking questions 18:40 2. The Savior's title of Counselor: reminder to think of what the Savior did, teaching and ministering without forcing 20:00 Return and report: go and put in your best effort when asked to do something 21:20 3. Lift the burden: support the bishop as he administers so that he can delegate to you 24:55 Frame the conversation as, "I've noticed this... I was thinking we could do this. What do you think about it?" 26:45 Counselors can help lift the heavy burdens that the Bishop alone must carry by listening and ministering to him 31:00 Being a counselor facilitates ministering and teaching as Christ did Michael Hjorth Michael lives in Boise, Idaho, but is in the process of moving to Sacramento, California. He has been a counselor in two bishoprics. Highlights 33:45 His first calling to serve in a bishopric was a surprise and a big learning curve 34:50 Start by praying for your own testimony of the validity of the calling of that new bishop 35:42 Come to training with the stake president with an open mind 36:50 Using technology can make everything better, tracking notes and communicating Principles: 38:25 1. Leveraging humility 39:30 2. Obedience 40:50 3. Communication: you have to be able to follow-through and go back to handle the tasks you are given43:45 He would leave his binder open to remind himself that he still had tasks to do, then added them into his daily calendar throughout the week 45:20 You are the voice to the ward for the bishop. He cannot do it all and needs you to fulfill your tasks and carry his messages to others; prepare people for upcoming meetings so they can be more productive48:00 4. Duty: Have your own sense of duty and pass it on to others 50:00 Training new leaders in organizations 52:50 Being willing to do the Lord's will in how you approach the work 55:00 Be approachable and willing to befriend more people in the ward 58:50 He learned to be more prayerful and to want the Spirit more in his life

Skye Fagrell lives in Queen Creek, Arizona, but grew up in Los Gatos, in the San Francisco Bay Area. He and his wife, Jacque, met at Brigham Young University, where he studied visual arts and coaching & teaching physical education. They moved to Arizona when he was offered a position teaching seminary in Tempe. Skye is the author of More Fit 4 The Kingdom. He is currently serving as a bishop.Highlights 6:40 Skye’s journey to becoming a seminary teacher 9:20 Where the book started: measuring and quantifying fitness 13:55 Story of Milo of Crotan and the bull: the overload principle and how he translates it to spiritual conceptsElder Bednar’s story of the tires spinning in the snow until the heavy load was in the truck16:55 StrivingHow the concept of striving has been incorporated in the temple recommend questions Taking a productive pause so that we can progress We need to have confidence in the grace of Christ, but we gain that confidence as we are striving23:00 Analogy of the course of life and running a raceElder Renlund quote: “Once back on the path, it’s as if we were never off.” Comparing ourselves to others leads to low spiritual self esteem 26:55 Story of snowboard cross athlete Lindsey Jacobellis’ first showing at the Olympics31:30 Fusing the motivation of striving with graceLuke 2:52—The four areas of the Savior’s growth D&C 93:12-13—Grace for grace and grace to grace: an exchange and progress D&C 45:3-5—Christ is the advocate and when He represents us it becomes about Him, not about us43:10 We need to focus on balancing all four areas: wisdom (intellectual), stature (physical), in favor with God (spirituality), in favor with man (social)—work/life balance 53:50 Goal-setting strategiesMOREFIT: a goal-setting funnel1:09:10 Overcoming plateaus: story of Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps and changing the frequency of his strokeChange either the duration, frequency, or intensity to break out1:15:00 BONUS INTERVIEW with Geoff Thatcher, author of The CEO's Time Machine 1:15:45 How his book came to life in the middle of a pandemic 1:17:35 The book is a layered fable with principles that apply to business and church leaders alike; one key message is to defeat paralysis by making decisions and moving forward now 1:22:40 Listen to the ideas of young single adults and youth because the people who are the future are here with us today Links Books in this episode: More Fit 4 The Kingdom: Gain the Spiritual Strength the Savior Emphasized by Following the Training Program He Utilized, by Skye Fagrell The CEO's Time Machine, by Geoff Thatcher Related articles and interviews: Becoming More Fit – Strategies for Growth in the 4 Youth Areas of Focus, by Skye Fagrell Inspired Counsel Includes Strategizing for Success, by Skye Fagrell Using Social Media in Stake Public Affairs | An Interview with Geoff Thatcher

Rodger Dean Duncan has been advisor to United States presidential cabinet officers in two administrations and to top business leaders in multiple industries. He’s author of several books including the award-winning, bestselling CHANGE-friendly LEADERSHIP, and co-author of Leadership for Saints. He also writes a regular leadership column for Forbes.com, a platform that reaches about 75 million readers each month. A descendant of 19th-century Baptist evangelists and a convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he has served as bishop (three times), stake president, high councilor, and stake mission president. Today he is patriarch of the Liberty Missouri Stake and a sealer in the Kansas City Missouri Temple. In the early 1980s he served on the advisory council that first recommended that “Another Testament of Jesus Christ” be added as subtitle to The Book of Mormon. He is a father of four and grandfather to twelve. Highlights 04:05 How Duncan came to coauthor the book, Leadership for Saints, with Ed J. Pinegar 07:14 Much book content came from training meetings produced as a stake president and articles he wrote. 09:25 His conversion story: At the lockers after a lesson on the “Mormon trekkers”, a cute high-school classmate asked, “Would you like to know more?” 11:30 Techniques and models of leadership from impactful leader-mentors: A Waco, Texas bishop told him, “This morning, you failed the Lord…”, blessing his entire life. 14:55 Reproving with sharpness means with clarity, not harshness. 15:52 Train leaders and future leaders whenever you can. 17:49 Sources of Duncan’s passion for studying leadership include serving in student government and working as a political, business, and investigative journalist. 18:35 Young editor, Jim Lehrer, taught him to look at the gap between what a leader aspires to and what is accomplished. 19:41 Jim Lehrer also taught effective listening as an investigative reporter: “Count to five silently.” This leads to elaboration, new directions, and psychological space for self discovery. 23:52 He worked as a consultant to cabinet officers in two White House administrations, a laboratory for both effective and dysfunctional leadership behavior. 24:35 Paths at Purdue: After earning a PhD in Organizational Behavior at Purdue, a young man who heard him talk at BYU decided to follow his path at Purdue: his name? David A. Bednar. 25:49 Premortal memories: Experts may unknowingly teach gospel principles: premortal memories can translate into mortal teachings. 27:56 Councils: Therefore, now what? In the early 80s, he served on an advisory council that reported to the First Presidency. Their roll-up-your sleeves work sessions included George and Lenore Romney, Gordon Jump, Gordon B. Hinckley, Neal L. Maxwell, Bruce R. McConkie, Boyd K. Packer, and others. For example, one thing that came out of these included the recommendation to add a subtitle to the Book of Mormon (Another Testament of Jesus Christ). At the end of these varied discussions, Boyd K. Packer would simply say, “Therefore, now what?” to invite the council to seek what course of action they should take. 31:20 Councils are for counseling together. Make it safe for everybody in the room to offer an opinion. It’s foolhardy for a leader to try to take charge of everything and make all decisions. 32:11 One primary responsibility of a leader is not to create more followers but rather more leaders. The renewed emphasis to teach the gospel in the home requires a higher level of leadership in the home. 33:07 Three Time Zones: When you make a decision as a council or an individual, you should think in terms of time travel through three different time zones: (1) How will a particular decision square with the past? Decisions made and covenants made in the past? Expectations expressed by others? (2) How will a potential decision square with needs in the present? (3) How will that decision bless people in the future...

Over the past 15 years, Russell Brunson has built a following of over a million entrepreneurs, sold hundreds of thousands of copies of his books, popularized the concept of sales funnels, and co-founded a software company called ClickFunnels that helps tens of thousands of entrepreneurs—including Leading Saints. Russell is also a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and hosts the Book of Mormon Challenge podcast. Highlights For the record, this is officially episode #389. 04:17 - Russell’s background in entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship 05:39 - Interest in the sales pitches from childhood 07:01 - What is the question I should ask to help people want to buy or find what products and services we offer? 08:03 - The funnel process in missionary work 09:40 - Using marketing and sales principles to accomplish righteous goals 11:30 - Ineffective door approaches for missionaries 12:01 - Effective door approaches for missionaries - the epiphany bridge. What would Russell do differently? How to tap emotion instead of logic to help people connect to the gospel? 14:43 - Tell your story; help people feel the spirit as you felt it 16:00 - When you share your emotional journey others will connect 16:47 - Principles by themselves are not valuable; the story helps people understand how you earned or learned your testimony, so that others can also have the epiphany you did; help people develop their own story 18:26 - Story structure remains the same; use the hero story pattern to tell your story 22:03 - How can members and/or youth develop or discover their own story? 23:16 - Richard believes you can’t share the gospel without having a story to tell. If you don’t have one, start your journey and chase it. 24:13 - Fear of starting the journey 24:47 - Developing the Book of Mormon Challenge; making something ordinary special 27:11 - Inviting others into your story or journey; leadership applications 28:03 - The pattern interrupt helps makes something special again 30:00 - Pattern interrupting the sacrament, helping the sacrament become special 31:08 - Using the pattern interrupt to help your ward connect 32:08 - Repetition causes people to forget even important events 32:28 - What do you remember about your church experiences? How do you create events that people will remember? 35:00 - How can leaders help increase attendance at activities or re-engage? 36:07 - Idea: creating a lifeline to help people understand each other, connect more deeply 39:30 - Help people connect through vulnerability 40:46 - Book of Mormon challenge podcast 46:50 - How has your hero’s journey helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? Links RussellBrunson.com The Book of Mormon Challenge podcast Clickfunnels

Tony Overbay is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, a Certified Mindful Habit Coach, author, motivational speaker and the host of the award-winning podcast, The Virtual Couch. Tony is a convert to the church and has served as a Young Men president twice, taught early morning seminary for seven years, and started a Pornography Addiction Support Group in his stake. Beckie Hennessy is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, has been a therapist since 2007, and currently owns BRICKS Family Counseling, Inc. She has a podcast called The Path of Imperfection (changing soon to The Path of Connection) and has written a book, Ministering Through Connection. She currently serves as a Stake Young Women president.Highlights 9:45 Anxiety in the times of Covid-19, and how anxiety can be confused with personal revelation 12:55 The unknown leads our minds to cognitive bias and confirmation bias, which then results in polarization 15:35 Anxiety that comes from what our minds think we are missing 16:25 Everyone is experiencing anxiety and worry because that’s what our brains do 18:30 Defaulting to agency and letting people choose how they will act 21:00 Framing the discussion by asking open-ended questions instead of shutting down people with assumptions 22:05 Empathy, being heard, and agreeing/being on the same team 26:45 The sacrament experience with church at home and how this can change how we approach the sacrament when returning to church at church: resetting our experience 34:20 Resetting the church culture 36:25 What about cleaning in the nursery? 37:35 Values pizza and how it could be applied to holding sacrament meetings 42:25 Defaulting to the socially compliant pizzas, and corrupting the culture with rules 43:50 Psychological reactants: instant negative reaction to being told what to do 46:20 TFTs: Terrible First Times and restructuring according to our values 49:25 Everyone is doing the best they can 51:30 Paying attention to the Spirit more than paying attention to what is happening around you, and identifying a focal point for the meeting 55:00 Handling feedback with empathy then counseling with others before making a decision 59:40 Story of using empathy with the ward member who wanted the air conditioning off 1:02:20 Spiritual trump cards from a leader’s standpoint 1:06:45 The Holy Ghost card/personal revelation and anxiety coming from an individual’s standpoint 1:12:00 Beckie’s experience with anxiety and returning to church: the need to be heard 1:17:30 Truth, Beauty, and Goodness: finding these values in the ward experience amidst change 1:29:30 The Measuring Stick and creating shame glitter: dangers of using behavior to determine truth of doctrine, to measure how well we are doing as leaders, or to measure someone’s righteousness 1:34:45 Shame has no part in unconditional love and the Atonement Links Beckie on Instagram: beckie.hennessy.lcsw The Path of Imperfection/The Path of Connection podcast BeckieHennessy.com The Virtual Couch Podcast TonyOverbay.com Tony on Instagram: virtualcouch He's a Porn Addict...Now What?: An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions, by Joshua Shea and Tony Overbay

Dave LeFevre and Jeff Ehlers are both serving as members of their stake high councils and share the leadership principles they have learned in this calling. Dave LeFevre Dave LeFevre lives northeast of Seattle in Maltby, Washington, and works in e-learning for SAP Concur. Originally from San Diego, he lived in Utah for a time and attended Brigham Young University. Dave has been a presenter at BYU Education Week and is currently serving for the fourth time on the high council in his stake. Highlights 06:00 His first calling to the high council was a learning experience 07:15 How his stake presidency uses their high council, counseling together as well as sending them out to the wards 09:20 Format and discussions as a high council and how they communicate and share information 11:25 How speaking assignments are handled, rotating through the wards 12:50 Leadership Principle: Speaking assignments are opportunities to engage with the ward leadership13:30 Arrive early and greet the ward members 16:40 Connect with the bishopric by email in advance, checking in with what is happening in the ward 17:50 Look to the bishoprics for topics to talk about, getting specific for the ward20:10 Leadership Principle: One of the most important responsibilities we have is to thank people22:20 Being specific and detailed with gratitude creates connection24:45 Leadership Principle: High councilors are more coaches than players, especially working with an assigned ward or organizationAdvising from knowledge of principles 26:25 Being a neutral, listening ear for the bishop 28:00 Being an expert on the handbook29:50 Leadership Principle: Building a relationship of trust with others is especially important to be effective, which is mostly done by respecting their stewardship and keysYou are the advisor and supporter, not there to tell others what to do33:25 Training other high councilors: be flexible and finish your talk on time, watch for opportunities to serve and be a part of your assigned ward 36:30 Being a disciple is being a learner Jeff Ehlers Jeff Ehlers lives in Meridian, Idaho, but grew up in rural Shelley, Idaho, and served a mission to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He earned bachelors and masters degrees in accounting from Brigham Young University, and a masters degree in business from the University of Utah. Jeff has started four companies and currently works full-time as CFO for a medical device company. He has served on his stake high council for a year. Highlights 38:00 21 days of digital missionary work and using recently-returned missionaries 41:30 Transitioning into serving on the high council, his first stake calling, and being a step away from engaging with the general membership to working with the leaders 44:10 Being the rookie on the high council is an opportunity to learnServing as an advisor for the young women, responsibility for stake social media, and opportunities to serve with the area Spanish-speaking branch48:45 The Self-Reliance Initiative fits the concept of living your life in beta: recognizing yourself as an unfinished product but improving yourself by putting yourself out there 51:40 Advising the young womenRespecting their position and right to revelation for their calling 52:50 Having their back/being the fifth presidency member 53:15 Lesson learned to do what the youth are doing and getting to know the people you are serving55:35 Leadership Principle: Being a delegate or being a representativeSometimes a high councilor is representing the stake presidency as if they were there, other times he is taking responsibility and making choices in an assignment59:10 Leadership Principle: InnovationThere is a lot of room for innovation in the handbook Asked the stake presidency and returned missionaries to record interviews for social media so they could connect with people during the pandemic

Ganel-Lyn Condie and Scott Sorensen are the co-hosts of Real Talk: Come Follow Me, a weekly YouTube show and podcast. Ganel-Lyn is a motivational speaker and author who loves teaching others and sharing messages of faith and hope. A regular television and radio guest in Utah, she is also a suicide prevention advocate after losing her sister to suicide. She and her husband Rob have two children. Scott Sorensen is currently a full-time seminary teacher, and previously worked ten years in the business world. He is passionate about talking about mental health issues and helping the youth find their mission and building relationships with God and others. He and his wife Paige have three children. Highlights 09:10 Scott's experience with anxiety and depression 15:30 About Real Talk: Come Follow Me and how it came together 22:30 Reaching those who are outside the cultural mold with Come Follow Me 25:10 Being curious as we listen to women and other perspectives 28:20 Learning truth and exploring it outside of what we "know" to find bigger definitions 32:10 There is healing in sitting in questions with someone else 35:45 Looking for the real-life application instead of "getting through" the topic of study; coming to know Christ instead of checking off the boxes 39:40 Wrestling together with faith questions with family and friends in the same way that Jesus connected with the marginalized 42:45 Stimulating connection and relationships in action with testimony 45:30 Ministering and teaching to create access to hearts; looking for how the principle connects us instead of overteaching it 52:10 Closing off access with judgment makes influence nearly impossible 54:40 Creating a heart-directed approach and talking about the why and the how in the gospel 57:15 Efficiency is not the same as productivity and effectiveness: God creates leaders with a different method and we are being prepared to become something 1:03:40 There is a purpose in the pain, creating what God needs us to be Links Real Talk: Come Follow Me Real Talk podcast Real Talk: Come Follow Me Facebook group Ganel-Lyn Condie books Come Follow Me through the Book of Mormon, by Scott Sorensen

Dan Duckworth is the founder of Crux Central, a leadership development company that helps changemakers level-up their leadership performance. He writes and podcasts at danduckworth.net and hosts high-intensity leadership workshops at cruxworkshops.com. He’s also a member of the Leading Saints Board of Directors. Highlights 5:39: Dan discusses the life cycle of a crisis and creating a “new normal” for Home Church 11:51: Statistics of geographic areas and types of leaders that responded to survey 15:20: Bishops in a transactional mindset 18:13: All about hypothetical worries 21:14: Feeling like you need to be doing something 23:32: The Youth Program and God’s plans for 2020 27:33: Taking a break from worrying to ponder 30:40: Comparing yourself and your ward to others’ 35:18: D&C 1, Hyrum Smith, and disciplined reflection 42:28: Creating connections in ministering and knowing what God wants us to do as leaders 51:02: Knowing the why behind actions you take and transactional mindset vs transformation mindset 55:45: Reintegrating into regular church life 58:32: The number one leadership tool Links Subscribe to the Newsletter The Power Equation The One Thing Bishops Worry Most About During Church-at-Home, and Why They Should Stop Come Follow Me FHE

Todd Olson, LCSW, CSAT, is a counselor and co-founder of LifeStar, who has been treating unwanted sexual behavior for over 30 years. Steven Shields, CHMC (2020), runs the website and podcast Unashamed Unafraid, with the goal of bringing hope and community to those in recovery through sharing authentic and vulnerable addiction recovery stories.The LifeStar Salt Lake Clinic is partnering with Leading Saints to host live events to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead those who struggle with pornography and sexual addiction. This will be an ongoing opportunity, available a few times a month, that you can attend in person or view online. Professional counselors will help guide individuals through the complexities of pornography and sexual addiction so that we are all better prepared to lead those in our lives who need the support.***REGISTER NOW FOR THE NEXT LEADING SAINTS LIVE WITH LIFESTAR*** Highlights 07:00 Todd’s journey treating sexual addictions and how it has changed over 30 years 11:50 Steve’s journey and how he got involved with LifeStar 14:50 LifeStar’s programs 16:20 The purpose LifeStar and Leading Saints have in creating this educational discussion series for lay church leaders 19:30 What’s going on behind the scenes when someone comes to their church leader with a sexual addiction problem: minimal discussion and disclosure leads to temporary relief but a continuing problem 24:30 The disclosure process takes time and professional help 27:45 The bishop’s role is a part of the recovery, not the healer, and education about their role is needed 30:30 Helping young men who are preparing to serve missions 33:30 The bishop doesn’t need to do the hard part but can be the hope and spiritual resource 35:30 Creating a dialogue with therapists and recovering addicts so that leaders can know what they should do and how they should approach the problem 38:55 Handling betrayal trauma with the spouse 41:00 ARP is a 12-step support group, not an an addiction recovery program 44:40 Discussions will be recorded and streamed online, and topics will be repeated to keep the learning going 47:30 We are all volunteers and not expected to know everything, and this will be the Cliff Notes to becoming a resource for those without hope 49:00 Working with counselors 50:30 Men will resist going to support groups and counselors 51:40 Dealing with trauma in the bishop’s office Links LifeStar Unashamed Unafraid Go to LeadingSaints.org/subscribe and register to receive information about the Leading Saints live discussions with LifeStar “The Atonement Works for Me”: One Couple’s Recovery from Sexual Addiction 6 Things I Wish Bishops Knew About Addiction Steve Shields was also interviewed as part of the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit, which is available in the Core Leader library. For access, become a Core Leader.

Rich Bangerter Rich Bangerter is a branch president in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He grew up in Bountiful, Utah, and served a mission to Romania, where he fell in love with international living. He works for the US foreign service and lived primarily in the Middle East before transferring to Malaysia. This interview was recorded in 2019, shortly after Rich was called as branch president. Highlights 06:30 Religious life in Malaysia compared to the Middle East09:15 Proselyting in Kuala Lumpur powered by the young single adults Served as Young Men president and as a counselor in the branch presidency Reports to a mission president and district president in the Singapore Mission15:10 Priesthood keys of a branch president and differences for counselors 16:30 Studied the handbook as soon as he was called; importance of distinguishing between policy and culture in church leadership 19:30 How financial assistance is handled in Malaysia, and the struggles of working with refugee populations 25:10 The definition of leadership is identifying the needs of others and fulfilling themRequires staying close to the Spirit Talk by Elder Ballard, Counseling on Councils: Monthly interviews with their sons has had a dramatic impact on their relationships35:00 “Living in the Doctrine & Covenants”: two experiences serving in the restored gospel from a perspective of the newly-restored religion David and Claudia Beal David and Claudia Beal are currently living in Texas, but David is the branch president of the Xi’an English Branch in China, and Claudia is a district Relief Society president over five branches in China. They are in their second year as part of Brigham Young University’s China Teachers program, but came back to the US for a holiday and have not been able to return because of Covid-19. Highlights 41:40 Introduction 44:00 About the branch and how they meet and communicate due to restrictions on religious practice and proselytizing in China 46:30 Call as district Relief Society president; districts in China 49:10 “The miracle of ministering” would be the theme of service as district RS president, checking-in with the branch Relief Society presidents and supporting them 51:00 Coronavirus interruption and drastic change, serving from the United States as branch president for members who have now spread out across the world 56:00 Receiving the call as branch president 58:45 A typical Sunday experience at “The Villa”The building Very small Primary and no youth program, but they do have young single adults1:04:10 Have a loving heart: followed advice to let China change them instead of trying to change China 1:06:20 Notice the daily miracles, write about them, and pray for more: whatever challenges they face, there is always a miracle 1:09:25 Recording experiences in stream-of-consciousness morning pages and also tracks where God blesses him, from a talk by President Eyring 1:10:25 Acknowledge the Gathering and do what you can: reaching out in love to others 1:13:00 The privilege of teaching where you can express love even when you are not able to discuss the gospel 1:14:00 The opportunity to serve the expatriate members in China is a privilege 1:15:40 Life in China is not always easy, but the experience is made wonderful by keeping Jesus Christ as an anchor Links Family Councils, by M. Russell Ballard O Remember, Remember, by Henry B. Eyring

Garrett Kroon holds a Psychology degree from Boise State and a Master’s degree in Counseling from Northwest Nazarene University, where he studied marriage, family, and couple therapy, and also trauma, grief, and crisis. He is a certified clinical anxiety treatment professional and a licensed professional counselor operating a practice in Meridian, Idaho.Highlights 6:00 Survey of Leading Saints followers: most people concerned about connection, relationships, and belonging 7:35 How this is manifesting in his practice: anxiety has changed to depression, and is linked to feeling alone and disconnected 11:00 People are trying hard to do their best and figure out what to do as a leader 13:00 Understanding connection 13:30 The power of a sense of belonging and how it is different from social support: his experience reflecting on returning to school after losing his mother as a youth 18:40 Research found that a strong sense of belonging was a mitigating factor for depression, and social support does almost nothing 17:30 We are defaulting to social support over creating belonging because our meetings—which we normally use to do that—have been taken away 24:45 Single and older people have especially lost their sense of belonging; his experience connecting through letters 27:15 Phone calls with not purpose other than checking-in with people: making opportunities for creating a sense of belonging can require some creativity; don't reject invitations when people reach out 31:20 Recognizing why connecting with individuals is so crucial and that even small interactions are powerful 33:20 Community-building is difficult but there are still people out there who are dying for a sense of belonging 38:15 Invitation to ask: How can I show up for you? 40:00 We may be able to do more good now than before because the lack of sense of belonging is so powerful 40:30 Trauma expert Dr. Russell Van Der Kolk identified seven pre-traumatic conditions people are experiencing as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic: lack of predictability, immobility, loss of connection, numbing-out/spacing-out, loss of sense of time/sequencing, loss of safety, loss of sense of purpose 44:20 There will be people asking, "Why would I even go back?" and we can do a lot for them by doing a little 46:10 Belonging is a key to surviving this pandemic; be more aware of grace; we need to be mindful for ourselves and others that this is affecting all of us, even those who do not otherwise experience depression 53:00 No need to create unnecessary burnout or fix others, there is no cookie-cutter pattern for everyone; meaning and connection can be created in simple ways Links Garrett Kroon Counseling Summary of pre-traumatic conditions identified by Dr. Russell Van Der Kolk Mental Health an Emerging Crisis of COVID Pandemic

Andrea Davis and her husband Tyler run a website, BetterScreenTime.com, born from a need to find a better way to lead their five children around the topic of using technology. She has a B.A. in secondary education, and her experience ranges from teaching preschool swimming lessons to college-level Spanish. She has served in the Church as a Young Women president. Andrea now works from home as an admin for a motherhood website, a health coach, and a podcast copywriter. In this interview, she and Kurt discuss how to approach parenting as leading in the home.Highlights 4:10 What it means to be a parent and what it means to be a leader: establishing a culture 6:30 Leading instead of parenting 8:40 1. A good leader works in a partnership with God, seeking and looking for personal revelationHearing Him in the scriptures Finding your own quiet time Filling your home with what is important to you: part of creating a culture 19:30 Partnership with your spouse (and their strengths) in your vision and goals22:15 2. Modeling the culture you want to have 30:00 3. Good leaders gather the people they love: family councils and personal interviews"Rumbling" with your family members: have difficult conversations, listen, and take that into account when making decisions37:30 4. A good leader serves but also sets boundariesThe balance of supporting and fostering independence44:02 5. A good leader crafts a vision by listening to the SpiritWhat is important to you?Roadblocks happen and strategies may need to change: modeling resilience Why are we here? What defines us as a family? Look to family history/ancestors for vision and what has been important in your family cultureLinks Better Screen Time Instagram: @betterscreentime Facebook: Better Screen Time The Gifts of Imperfect Parenting, by Brene Brown Your Best Year Ever, by Michael Hyatt Dare to Lead, by Brene Brown Start with Why, by Simon Sinek The Vision Driven Leader, by Michael Hyatt

Consultant, author, mental health coach, trainer, and researcher Ryan Gottfredson is the author of Success Mindsets: Your Keys to Unlocking Greater Success in Your Life, Work and Leadership. He holds a PhD from Indiana University and is a BYU alum. Presently he is a leadership and management professor in the College of Business and Economics at California State University, Fullerton. He has prior professional experience with Gallup. Dr. Gottfredson has published numerous professional articles and his research is frequently cited by others. He has often contributed his expertise to Leading Saints. A short and free mindset survey is available to readers/listeners at RyanGottfredson.com. Highlights 06:00: Value of mindset in assuming leadership responsibilities; NFL example of good intentions gone awry. Leader impact on “subordinate” self-esteem. 11:15: Becoming awakened to our personal mindsets, e.g. homeless individuals. 15:00: Do we perceive our leaders as doing their best? Bias towards our personal perceptions vs openness to other possibilities. Unintentional damage to team/group/congregation members. 18:39: Mindset in conducting successful meetings. Chrysler/Lee Iacocca case study. Desire to look good, be right, avoid problems and get ahead are self-focused, negative self-protection modes. We should want to learn and grow, find truth, reach goals, and lift others. 24:05: We limit ourselves by believing our opinions count more than others. 26:00: Decision making becomes stunted if we are closed. Do we desire to be the person with all the answers who minimizes the perspectives of others? Do people feel psychological safety in the group? 31:20: Do we allow formal handbooks to stifle our creativity. 32:50: Prevention mindset vs risk taking. Fleeing to safe comfort zone may not lead to original destination. 36:40: Sacrament meeting mindset. 40:30: Comfort-focused vs intention focused. Are the people in the group growing? Do we deem our bucket so full we cannot pour anything else into it by way of considering avenues for growth? 44:00: How do we know if people in the organization are engaged and growing? What drives engagement? Do stakeholders feel their opinions matter? Gallup study reveals 30% of workforce feels truly engaged. 50:15: Only 5% of mindset survey respondents find themselves in the top quartile. There is no correlation among the four mindsets. Failure avoidance leads to wanting to look good as opposed to learning/growing. 50% of population has fixed mindset. Spiritually, are sanctification and tapping into the Spirit more difficult with a closed mindset about self? Having faith to “lean into” difficult situations. 1:00:37: Consider crucial conversations with leaders whose closed mindset is negatively impacting the organization. “I Hear You” by Michael Sorensen will improve your emotional intelligence. 1:03:53: Are we closed-minded in thinking our leader has a closed mindset? Being proactive. 1:05:05: Once we know our mindset tendencies, how will we take charge of our future? Neuro connection link. Shift towards more positive mindset is easier than many realize. “The Power of Stillness.” Focusing on behaviors without modifying our mindset leads to frustrations. Learning from mistakes. 1:13:55: Becoming a better disciple of Christ by learning, growing, finding truth, and lifting others. Live in opportunity mindset, not fear. The Atonement is liberating. Links RyanGottfredson.com Success Mindsets: Your Keys to Unlocking Greater Success in Life , Work, and Leadership

John Hilton III was born in San Francisco and grew up in Seattle. He served a mission in Denver, and got a Bachelor’s degree from Brigham Young University. While there he met his wife Lani and they have six children. They have lived in Boise, Boston, Miami, Mexico, Jerusalem and China. Currently, they live in Utah. John has a Masters degree from Harvard and a Ph.D from BYU, both in Education. John is a Professor of Religious Education at BYU.John has published several books with Deseret Book, most recently, The Founder of our Peace, and enjoys speaking at Education Week, and other places. His education research has influenced policy both in the United States and internationally. John loves being with his family, doing humanitarian work, learning Chinese, and performing magic.©BYU PHOTO 2011 All Rights ReservedHighlights 7:04: John quotes President Uchtdorf in which the former addresses the many “shoulds” and “should nots” that become a challenge in our lives. We can lose peace in our lives when we focus on admittedly good ideas, but aren’t grounded in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 8:50: What are “Fence Laws”? Imagine an unfillable hole in your backyard, which poses a threat to children who may fall in. You therefore put a fence around this hole, which represents sin. The fence represents the protective effort against anybody falling into the sin. 9:45: We are already protected from sins by commandments, which John refers to as “core laws”. Yet some still feel the need to add additional “fence laws”. E.g.:Core Law: The law of chastity, i.e., no sexual relations outside of marriage. Fence Law: No kissing until the fourth date, and kiss will last no longer than five seconds. Fence Law: No going into the bedroom of a member of the opposite sex.10:47: Some fence laws have prophetic sources, like those found in the For the Strength of Youth, etc. There is a goodness to fence laws as guided by the spirit or other divine sources, like prophets. 13:57: Examples of positive fence laws. 15:22: Dangers of focusing on the fence laws while forgetting the commandments: “I didn’t go into the bedroom of a member of the opposite sex, but I still broke the law of chastity.” Children need fences, but the choices should shift away from extrinsic fences to self-imposed fences. 16:50: Too many good fences can become a burden. 22:58: “Take my yoke upon you” meaning. 25:49: Ward traditions that become fences. 28:56: Allowing the spirit to fill in the details around prophetic direction. 30:14: Anecdotes where a personal fences law caused harm:Unrighteous judgment Offending others Teaching others incorrectly43:20: Fences should help us feel the Holy Ghost 45:50: Leading Saints’ contribution to fence laws: learning by seeking to understand the purpose behind a fence. 48:14: How to step back from the rush to judgment. 51:48: When to correct and when to ignore as leaders. 53:10: Did we become members of Christ’s church in order to argue with others what true discipleship looks like? Paul, when using dietary habits as an example of arguing over something inconsequential, said “For meat, destroy not the work of God.” Romans 14:20. 55:14: “The work of God” and your role, the bishop’s role, and our common goal. 58:01: Trusting prophets as “seers”, even if we can’t “see” the point of their counsel. 100:08: Review of four key points:It’s good to have spirit-driven fence laws Some fence laws can be burdensome Know the mark: loving God and loving our neighbors Judging others over fence laws, and teaching doctrine100:35: “Lord, is it I?” mode: who needs to hear this podcast? Look inward. 1:02:58: Upward empathy toward leaders. 204:18: Conclusion Links The Founder of Our Peace: Christ-Centered Patterns for Easing Worry, Stress, and Fear John's article discussing this topic: A Fence Around the Law – Safety Net or Beam in Our Eye

Dr. Susan R. Madsen is the Orin R. Woodbury Professor of Leadership & Ethics in the Woodbury School of Business at Utah Valley University. A global scholar and speaker, she is also the Founding Director of the Utah Women & Leadership Project and the Utah Women and Education Initiative, and has led efforts in Utah to get more women to graduate from college and to help more girls and women find their voices and become leaders. Dr. Madsen received a bachelor’s degree from BYU, masters from Portland State, and a doctorate from the University of Minnesota. She and her husband Greg live in Highland, Utah, and are the parents of four adult children. Highlights 5:40 Women feeling a calling or purpose in both religious and secular settings gives them more confidence 8:40 Either/or socialization for women has become powerful in Church culture over the past 60 years 11:30 Research into sister missionaries started with the purpose of learning what influences women's goals and aspirations to become leaders in their homes and communities 13:50 What leadership skills have women developed through mission service? How do they use them now? What other opportunities do they wish they would have had? 17:50 Men are more likely than women to see themselves as leaders 19:00 Competencies and leadership skills women gain from serving a mission: public speaking, conflict management, courage, interpersonal skills, problem solving, planning organization and accountability, confidence, spiritual growth, empathy, giving and receiving feedback, grit and resilience, mentoring, teaching, critical thinking, listening, personal growth and awareness, accepting others, time management, training others, teamwork, foreign language skills, intercultural competencies, goal-setting, managing people, work ethic, serving others, taking direction, independence, patience, decision-making and judgment, standing their ground, leading by example, self-discipline, adaptability, lifelong learning 27:10 Connecting these skills to leadership for women: "We have to be leaders"Serving a mission helps women see themselves as leaders33:45 How can we encourage women to act with confidence in leadership roles when men are present? Increasing internal confidence and changing societal systemsLook deeply at opportunities that are available and asking, can women do this? Creating male allies: men who are aware and desire to be more inclusive37:00 Women are socialized to keep quiet in a group with men 38:50 Leaders who understanding the differences between men and women create more powerful action and teams 42:50 A Mission President's wife is a leader: to develop leadership identity, women need to see other women leading 45:15 Yearning for sisters to be included in leadership and missionary training 48:15 Talking more about Mother in Heaven and recognizing a connection to her 52:30 What are returned sister missionaries currently doing to use their knowledge and skills? All of those skills apply to leadership in the family and Church roles, and they have also translated them into leadership in their careers55:50 Women with leadership skills are not using them in the community as Church leaders have asked, serving in non-leadership roles instead59:05 Receiving personal revelation about what God wants women to do in the worldSheri Dew quote: "If we could unleash the full influence of covenant-keeping women, the kingdom of God would change overnight." President Russell M. Nelson: "The women of this dispensation are distinct from the women of any other because this dispensation is distinct from any other." 1:02:00 Women judge each other harshly in the Church, but we need to recognize the power in our distinct differences and what God has called each woman to do1:06:30 Serving a mission is one of the best leadership development opportunities for both men and women 1:09:30 Young women who do not serve missions should thoughtf...

Chris Bauco was serving as a Young Men president when the program was changed during the 2019 General Conference. This interview was recorded the week before and includes many principles that can guide advisors in the Young Men program, no matter their title. Chris lives in Kaysville, Utah, and works for Zions Bank. He is originally from Bridgeport, Connecticut, and came to Utah for college. He joined the Church eight years later, influenced by the examples of friends who were returned missionaries. Highlights 6:30 Serving as a Young Men president when this podcast was recorded—something he had no previous experience in 8:00 Presidency meeting and private moments are where the Spirit has come to give them guidance about leading the young men 8:50 Passionate about preparing young men for missions 11:15 Experience learning that only 50% of the young men in his strong LDS area were going on missions 12:50 Four barriers to mission preparation: fear, lack of testimony, worthiness, physical preparation 14:00 Addressing fear and testimony: 5/5/5 program for the young men, 100 days starting January 1 each year; priest quorum members mentor by sharing their experiences 18:25 Creating companionships on a group retreat, then sending the young men out to member houses to teach 20:30 Addressing worthiness: Powerful activity using “commitment stones” and “sin stones” 23:20 Approaching repentance as an opportunity to get closer to the Savior and infusing spiritual strength into the culture with the young men 28:50 Addressing physical preparation: creating challenging high adventure activities so they can have increased physical abilities as well as experience handling a difficult challenge 32:15 Priest Quorum leadership preparation setting up service projects where the young men do all the work 34:50 Visiting each young man on his birthday and giving birthday socks Links Resilience—Spiritual Armor for Today’s Youth, by Elder Lynn G. Robbins

John Bytheway has a master's degree in Religious Education and is the author of more than two dozen books and CDs. He has taught the Book of Mormon at Brigham Young University and now at the BYU Salt Lake Center since 1996. John served as bishop of the Salt Lake Winder 10th Ward, and currently serves on the high council in his stake. Highlights 4:00 John’s background as a teacher and speaker 5:45 Writing books and how that happens for him 8:00 How his calling as a bishop came about 9:20 Serving as a bishop is different for every person and area; he had people asking for welfare support before he ever sat in the bishop’s chair 10:40 For bishops with significant welfare challenges in their wardFirst ask what they need and listen Make a three-column chart of what the ward can do, what the Lord can do, and what the individual can do to help them—handing back the problem to the individual so you can work on it together instead of taking it from them Helps eliminate the transactional mentality and replace it with mentoring Help them get their spiritual act together first16:20 Emphasis to push more things (such as welfare needs) to the ward council; called a “welfare coordinator” couple to help handle welfare requests before bringing it to the bishop 18:10 Moving people closer to financial self-sufficiency and self-relianceLearning experiences as a missionary in the Philippines and seeing similar development in the welfare program21:15 Ended meetings with his counselors at a specific time, no matter what 22:30 “It takes a really good meeting to be better than no meeting at all”: Virtual ward council held via text messages throughout the week to eliminate much of the administrative points so they could really focus on individuals in the ward council meeting 24:20 Losing the joy in the calling, and how talking with others who have struggled helpedExperience speaking with Robert L. Millet and having “same boat therapy” Recognizing that there are difficulties in the calling but moments that made it worth it Fisher missions vs hunter missions: some fantastic stories from great moments, but difficult days, weeks, and months between31:30 Calling ward members each evening on their birthday was a simple, routine thing that became important for connecting 34:30 Working with youth: firesides are different than teaching a classTaught Sunday School with his wife after serving as bishop, and went back to the simple idea that you have to care for them first Put people in place with the youth who are great examples; youth learn by example, not principles37:10 Kids will listen differently to a speaker at a fireside because they don’t think that the speaker was influenced by what their parents or leaders are saying (“An expert is anybody from out of town”) 39:30 Stephen Covey: the order of the events in the restoration is a formula for solving life’s problems. Start with identity and relationships. “If we want to help our children or other people change their behavior, we begin by improving the quality of our relationships with them, and we introduce new ideas before we introduce new expectations and controls. In other words, we help them see the world differently. When a person’s paradigm changes, everything else changes with it.” 44:25 His book about Moroni: Moroni didn’t get to how to run the Church until Moroni chapter 6 46:00 Working with Meg Johnson and Hank Smith Links John Bytheway at Deseret Book John Bytheway, Meg Johnson, and Hank Smith's OurTurtleHouse.com Falling Up Six Events: The Restoration Model for Solving Life's Problems, by Stephen R. Covey The Divine Center, by Stephen R. Covey Image: magazine.byu.edu

John Eldredge is an author, counselor, and teacher. He earned his undergraduate degree at Cal Poly and his master’s degree in Counseling from Colorado Christian University. John worked as a counselor in private practice before launching Ransomed Heart—a ministry devoted to helping people discover the heart of God, recover their own hearts in God's love, and learn to live in God's Kingdom. John and his wife Stasi live in Colorado Springs.Highlights 05:50 Where the ministry began 9:30 It isn't enough for a man to be kind or nice 11:30 Every boy is asking, "Do I have what it takes?" and when they don't get an answer, they are still searching as an adult 13:20 The mood of the room is set by the leader, and you lead by vulnerability and by inviting them to an adventure: boredom is what is killing men in church 16:00 Group retreats take men into their own hearts and back into their own stories to where they lost heart 19:00 Unplugging and getting away from the distraction is important to getting more out of the program 21:35 Writing his most recent book, Get Your Life Back: Everyday Practices for a World Gone Mad—the pace of life was becoming too much for him so he began to look for ways to get away from the chaos in the midst of living 24:05 Are you giving more of your attention to what's happening in the world than you are to God? The war in the world is for our attention; this increases stress, which even wears us down physically 26:00 Your attention gets taken away from other things, the things that help you relax and connect with others; put your phone down 27:15 Surrender: Knowledge gives us a sense of control, of safety and security, but God wants to be our security 29:00 Disconnect and become human again: putting away the phone releases us to perform better and to be a human being unplugged from technology and doing real things 30:15 The big lie: technology was going to give us more margin to do the things we love, but instead it has connected us to the chaos of information, fear, and anxiety 32:20 We have a divided attention and a divided affection, but we can learn to create soulful space for a little bit of time each day 35:00 John found he couldn't even play with his grandchildren for even a few minutes without turning to his phone and checking it 35:55 Our souls are on empathy overload: benevolent detachment is required to disconnect from everything and give it back to God (1 Peter 5) because we are not the Savior 39:00 App: The One Minute Pause 41:00 Transitional spaces: Jesus spent three days—walking—to get from one place to another, and we need to find the downtime and the transitions 44:10 Restating belief: Do you have a confident sense that God is in control of the universe? Write your fundamental beliefs so you can go back to them as an anchor 47:00 Take specific, deliberate steps to get yourself back to being human again—normal things that let your soul calm down and be able to recenter and hear God Links Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul, by John Eldredge Get Your Life Back: Everyday Practices for a World Gone Mad, by John Eldredge Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman’s Soul, by John and Stasi Eldredge Ransomed Heart Podcast The One Minute Pause app Ransomed Heart events A Warrior Heart Retreat Heart of a Woman Retreat

Jacob Hess, Carrie Skarda, Kyle Anderson, and Ty Mansfield are the authors of The Power of Stillness: Mindful Living for Latter-day Saints. In this interview they discuss where mindfulness and meditation fit into the gospel and how we can better approach our service and our practices with the balance of mindfulness.Jacob Hess, PhD, is a clinical psychologist and a mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) instructor trained through the Center for Mindfulness at the University of Massachusetts Medical School.Carrie Skarda, PsyD, is a psychologist in private practice. She has provided individual and couples therapy with particular interest in attachment trauma and mindfulness, and has studied and practiced mindfulness and formal meditation for over ten years.Kyle Anderson, PhD, is a professor of Chinese and Asian Studies, currently an administrator in Global Learning, International Partnerships and Initiatives at Clemson University, and came to mindfulness meditation through his studies in Asian literature.Ty Mansfield, PhD, is a practicing marriage and family therapist, an adjunct instructor in Religious Education at Brigham Young University, and is in the process of certification with Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach in their Mindfulness Meditation Teacher training program. Highlights 5:40 Jacob was exposed to meditation in graduate school and began to see where it fit into the gospel tradition 7:00 Backgrounds of the authors 9:00 Definitions of mindfulness and what it means to Christians and to Latter-day Saints: compassionate presence in the moment 11:10 Christ was meditative and present in the moment 12:25 Being busy vs. mindfulness 14:00 Looking for words in our own tradition: reverence, peace, stillness, pondering 15:45 Advice for a busy leader: Christ had a practice of punctuating his doing with non-doing; the rhythm of action and pausing is already built in to our practices 19:40 It's not the gospel that people struggle with, but an impoverished experience of it 20:55 David O. McKay quote: "I think we pay too little attention to the value of meditation, a principle of devotion. In our worship there are two elements: One is spiritual communion arising from our own meditation; the other, instruction from others, particularly from those who have authority to guide and instruct us. Of the two, the more profitable introspectively is meditation. Meditation is the language of the soul." 22:10 Example in a ward council: not praying as a to-do, but sitting with the Savior 23:30 Clarity and priority come through pausing between action 24:25 Centering the attention on the inspiration in the moment and not on the calendar: Am I interruptable? 26:20 The Savior was interruptable in his task at hand and could pivot to what was most needful in the moment 28:35 The Savior was willing to build in his time with His Father, the foundation of His work 29:35 We can meditate on the person in front of us by giving them our full attention in that moment 31:30 The order in which the Savior did what he did: communion with the Father, surrounding himself in community, then going out to minister 33:45 C.S. Lewis (in Mere Christianity): “It comes the very moment you wake up each morning. All your wishes and hopes for the day rush at you like wild animals. And the first job each morning consists simply in shoving them all back; in listening to that other voice, taking that other point of view, letting that other larger, stronger, quieter life come flowing in. And so on, all day. Standing back from all your natural fussings and frettings; coming in out of the wind.” 35:25 Tech hack for when you're tied to your computer: the first tabs on the left are dedicated to devotion 36:40 How we organize our lives reflects our core values: look for the bigger purpose instead of organizing in a task-oriented way 37:30 Doing more can be disobedient, and following God's will can involve taking out good things in favor of better ...

In this short episode, Kurt Francom (Executive Director of Leading Saints) explains how easily chaos can manifest itself in a church organization and how we can avoid it.Be sure to register for FREE for the Meetings with Saints Virtual Summit.

In this short episode, Kurt Francom (Executive Director of Leading Saints) explains what it means to preside in a meeting and why it is such an important role.Be sure to register for FREE for the Meetings with Saints Virtual Summit.

DeAnna is a former Stake Relief Society president in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and the CEO of People Acuity. She works with leaders and employees helping them to “Shift Up!” blame, engagement, leadership, and individual and team performance. She is also an internationally-known keynote speaker, Top 100 Global Coaching Leader, and the author of Shift Up! Strengths Strategies for Optimal Living. She has shared her expertise and inspiration in several Leading Saints articles and podcasts. Her personal time is joyfully spent loving and lifting her family and friends – and helping each person she meets to recognize how valuable and important they are. Highlights 0:00:03 Introduction of DeAnna Murphy 0:00:48 Her deepest desire has just been to be a great mom; her best leadership training has come in that arena. Professionally, she's an executive leadership coach. 0:03:44 Great leaders don't just ask "what we are trying to accomplish?", but also, "what is important about it?" 0:04:07 When we start a meeting establishing the purpose of the meeting, it creates power. 0:04:20 Beginning a 13-14 Sunday School class by establishing the purpose 0:05:43 "Of all the things you're trying to accomplish with this summit, what's the most important thing you'd hope they'd learn and they're longing to hear?" 0:06:00 (Kurt) Hope people walk away with a deeper ability and motivation to run a meeting 0:06:50 We meet to unify. We meet to connect. We meet to multiply our resources together. D&C 43:8-9 - When we meet, we should instruct and edify one another 0:08:08 To "instruct and edify together" implies that each participant holds a piece - no one person holds all the pieces 0:11:06 Each person in a council has a unique strength and a unique perspective. 0:13:23 DeAnna's experience with a leader having a diametrically opposed viewpoint - she might have a difficult time understanding his perspective. She sometimes had a difficult time communicating with him. It helped them to understand how the other viewed situations. 0:15:29 Feelings of self-consciousness, uncertainty, and fear led to defensiveness. Granting herself grace allowed her to grant others grace, and remove the defensiveness. 0:16:05 Citing Ether 12:27 (weaknesses that they may be humble); DeAnna focuses on Ether 12:37 (because you see your weakness, you'll be made strong) 0:16:35 DeAnna's weaknesses were not made strong by becoming like her Stake President. Instead, they learned from each other, they became stronger in each other, and were unified in the Savior. 0:19:00 Identify what is important about the meeting 0:19:18 Identify "how" we will be together: (1) There's always room for the Savior (2) Recognize we see things differently 0:20:30 Three or four questions always help to create clarity: (1) "What are you noticing..." or "I'm noticing..." (2) "What's important about that?" (3) "What does it mean?" (4) "Now what do we do about it" ("Why?When?How?") 0:22:58 What do you do when you're in a meeting and you realize that you're not tracking what is being said? Many remain silent. 0:24:00 Feeling confusion in a meeting may be a spiritual prompting that others are confused. Consider that speaking up will likely help others in the room, not just yourself. 0:24:35 Going into meetings, agree about how we are going to "be" together. Set up ground rules for how we will conduct the meetings and participate. 0:26:17 Google experiment: The number one thing contributing to high-performing teams - cohesive and agile - was psychological safety. 0:27:17 There's nothing more intimidating that being one of three women in a room with 15 men in their suits. 0:27:55 Fear interferes with our ability to experience oneness. 0:30:13 Confident vulnerability - the confidence that God has empowered each of us with something unique, and he's also given us weaknesses. 0:33:30 Each person is a puzzle piece with unique strengths. If I hold my puzzle piece back,

Sister Lynzi Clyde Lynzi Clyde was born and raised in Mesa, Arizona as a member of the church. She attended Arizona State University for one year and then transferred to Brigham Young University in Utah. She and her husband have been married eight years and have three children. They currently live in Boston, Massachusetts and previously lived in a Utah ward where Kurt was their bishop. Highlights 7:00 Lynzi was called as a Primary president at age 23, with a brand new baby, in a highly transient ward of primarily Harvard Business School students 9:45 The ward youth and primary are combined with a Spanish branch and a Mandarin branch 11:25 Biggest blessing was amazing alignment of counselors: two from the English ward, one from the Spanish branch, one from the Mandarin branch, and a secretary from the English ward 12:35 Creating unity in this primary started by building unity in the presidency. She started with “highs and lows”: what is going well and what do you need prayers for? This allowed them to feel more comfortable and also willing to share ideas with each other. We need to be vulnerable if we are going to touch people 14:35 How to lead with non-English speaking parents: two experiences, one good and one not as good.A child with learning disabilities – spent lots of time trying to engage him, but in the two years saw little progress. She told the mom to just keep bringing him back and let him be with them. Three years later, saw him in the hallway preparing for baptism. It could have gone a different way if they hadn’t included him in the primary. We need to work with the parents and communicate the love that we have for their children so they can leave them with us. A child from a non-English-speaking family – as it was time to move to Sunbeam class, her mother didn’t want her to move out of nursery. The “rules” say to move the child, and the nursery leaders wanted her to be moved but the mother didn’t want it to happen. Kept pushing the mom and she did take her to Sunbeams, but the girl ran away and got lost in the building. It ended badly and she knew she didn’t follow the spirit like she could have. They later left the branch and she felt she didn’t do what she needed to do to express love. How do we support the family and the parents in these decisions?25:00 We need to stand up for our own revelation. She knows she can be straightforward and demanding when asking for what she needs. She tried to understand the difficulty of the bishopric in this ward as well, but just kept pushing and providing the reasoning. Every chance she got, I would send emails, talk to them in the hall, just a reminder constantly. There's a balance between advocating for what you need but also stepping back and just take care of the Sunday meeting time. 29:15 Don’t be afraid to have the discussion or push the discussion. What is the worst that can happen? Reference to Barbara Morgan Gardner’s book “Women and the Priesthood”. 30:10 The bishops and counselors always asked “what is your biggest need” – both in the callings, but also spiritually. Get yourself past that barrier of needing to sugar-coat everything. Be willing to speak up. You will feel a closer bond with those that you struggle with in the end. 32:20 Lynzi's “Learn, Live, Love Yourself” podcast for Latter-day Saint women who are passionate about progress, who like to challenge themselves and learn things. She provides “POP” (power of practice) challenges with every episode. 34:50 How has leading made you a better follower of Jesus Christ? “It has put me on a faster track to spiritual maturity.” Sister Marcie Bayles Marcie Bayles lives in Bentonville, Arkansas. Originally from Colleyville, Texas, she has also lived in Southern California and Shenzhen, China. She previously taught high school Computer Science and Math and is currently a Life Coach with five children. She has served as Young Women president and advisor, choir director, primary chorister,

***Register for the Meetings with Saints Virtual Summit***Dr. Steven G. Rogelberg is a Professor of Organizational Science, Management, and Psychology at UNC Charlotte. The author of The Surprising Science of Meetings: How You Can Lead Your Team to Peak Performance, he is a distinguished scholar addressing issues such as team effectiveness, leadership, engagement, health and employee well-being, meetings at work, and organizational research methods. The book is a culmination of 15 years of research and thousands of surveys and interviews. It’s a collection of evidence-based insights and represents a strategic approach that leaders and organizations can take that’s highly practical and accessible, but also strongly based in science. In this interview, Steve talks with Kurt about applying the insights from his book to improving meetings in the Church environment—a sneak-peek into the upcoming Meetings With Saints Virtual Summit which begins March 17th, 2020.Highlights 5:00 We know one thing but tend to do a different thing, but there is no formula for meeting success. Instead the key is making good choices, which is more empowering. 7:00 Steve’s experience with members of the Church 8:15 The cost of meetings is underestimated 11:00 Being self-aware as a meeting leader: stewardship and making changes 13:40 Things to reflect on that are signs that there needs to be improvement 14:30 Start with a quick survey, then work on the little things and assess later 17:00 Talking as the leader vs. leading the discussion 20:00 Transparency and honesty allows you to lead from the back or the front in a genuine way 21:10 Three phases of the meeting: planning/designing, facilitating, and post-meeting activity 21:50 Planning a meeting is not time consuming and has a high return on investment 23:45 Taking a “pre-mortem” moment before the meeting 25:00 Agendas are a hollow crutch: what matters most is what is on that agenda and how it is facilitatedFrame the agenda as a set of questions to be answered Allow other people to different agenda items Put the most important/compelling issues first30:10 Parkinson’s Law: Work expands to fill whatever time is allottedHow much time should it take? Dial it back a bit and create time pressure Volunteer time is a precious gift: build trust by respecting it35:00 Combating minutia in meetings by making meeting time incredibly purposeful 38:00 Councils and update meetingsWhat is a good update? Decide and then put people on the clock Silent updates via a shared document41:20 Silence in a meeting is a way of engaging people 44:25 Technology in a meeting: multitasking is a symptom of a bad meetingKeep meeting minutes in real time on the screen instead of a powerpoint People focused on their phones is actually feedback47:00 Avoiding the meeting that should have been an emailRecording your voice with the message you want to give and sending it out Start the meeting with questions about the message(s) you sent out49:30 Presentations in meetings: have the person write their ideas in a document, then discuss it in the meeting 51:30 Where to find his book and research on the science of meetings Links Register for the Meetings with Saints Virtual Summit stevenrogelberg.com The Surprising Science of Meetings: How You Can Lead Your Team to Peak Performance, by Steven Rogelberg

For LGBT Latter-day Saints, no two experiences are alike. However, in this interview we hope to explore what the gay or same-sex attraction experience is like for women in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Kurt Francom sits down with Quinn Kelly, Bailey Savage, and Deb Hutchins who each experience same-sex attraction. They discuss their personal experience being raised in the Church, serving missions, being active in their wards, and striving to develop a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ and maintiain their covenants and beliefs in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Highlights 06:00 Quinn’s background growing up in the Church and finally admitting her SSA to herself 08:40 Deb’s background, burying her SSA until her mission experience, and coming home early 10:30 Connected to a group at BYU working with students and administrators to make the campus a better place for LGBT individuals 16:30 Bailey's background of figuring out she is attracted to women 19:30 Bailey meeting her husband Jared 22:00 Clarifying that being same-sex attracted is not a choice 25:00 What the same-sex attraction experience is like for women 28:00 The power of connecting with other women 31:00 Seeing same-sex attraction as a gift 32:00 Being open about your story with others in the church and why leaders need to have their back 34:30 Other ways leaders could support sisters who are same-sex attracted 35:30 The process of "coming out" 37:00 Being forced to "come out" again and again 40:30 The importance of allowing people to be vulnerable about their story 43:00 Being single vs. being same-sex attracted and single 46:00 When leaders create false hope 46:46 How important it is for a leader be proactive in learning more about the same-sex attracted experience 47:30 Why leaders should attend the North Star conference for free 48:30 Considering the concept of eternity and hope 52:00 What a bishop should consider when someone "comes out" to them 58:00 How North Star has helped each one of these women 1:02:00 How has the same-sex attraction experience helped you become a better disciple of Jesus Christ Links northstarlds.org (register for the free leadership sessions)

Becket Cook grew up in Dallas, Texas, in a large Catholic family, and recognized at a young age that he experienced same-sex attraction. After living a gay lifestyle in Hollywood culture, he began to feel a sense of overwhelming emptiness in his life. A powerful spiritual experience in an evangelical church led to a dramatic lifestyle change, embracing Jesus Christ as his Savior, and finding fulfillment identifying as a Christian. Becket is now an author, speaker, and preacher, and will be speaking at the North Star Conference, March 5-7, 2020. Highlights 10:50 Growing up in Dallas, recognizing his same-sex attraction, and exploring gay culture13:15 Identifying as a gay man and disconnecting from Christianity16:00 Moved to Los Angeles and fit in with friends having a Hollywood experience18:30 Wondering about the meaning of life and discovering a sense of emptiness21:00 Met a group of Evangelical Christians in Los Angeles and started questioning the foundations of his life23:30 Attended Church, felt the Spirit during the sermon, and had a powerful born-again experience during worship time and again at home after27:30 Immediately dismissed a gay lifestyle and welcomed Christ into his life29:10 Wrote a book, A Change of Affection: A Gay Man's Incredible Story of Redemption, and was blacklisted in Hollywood30:40 Basked in the grace of God for the first year, and recognizes now that struggles are part of sanctification and he can turn to Jesus for support through difficulty34:25 His life is no longer dominated by his sexual appetite; comparison with Esau selling his birthright36:35 The gay culture is so powerful and needs to be countered with the armor of God that comes from daily immersion in scripture and prayer, and in a community where others can help you and pray for you in the body of Christ39:00 What difference would it make if we turned to scripture like we turn to Instagram?40:40 Paul prayed for the thorn to be taken from his flesh and it wasn’t, but all he cared about was the gospel of Jesus Christ; the struggle and tension in life is worth it42:40 The fulfillment of powerful prayer and abiding in Christ brings joy that enriches and renews; a daily practice bring results and not spending time in spiritual discipline means missing out on those results; sees his own mission to teach49:00 Unconditionally loving people is a long process and leaders need to balance grace and truth, being as loving as possible as individuals go through their own process, showing compassion instead of preaching to them52:20 He chooses to not put himself into situations that are dangerous and has embraced new Christian friends, but keeps the door open for his old friends so they know he is still there for them and still loves them55:30 Identifying as gay vs. identifying as a Christian; shaping of identity by how we label ourselves58:45 His book isn’t just for people who experience same-sex attraction1:00:15 After being in the dark for so long, he can now see the emptiness and the contrast with the miraculous change in himself Links A Change of Affection: A Gay Man's Incredible Story of Redemption, by Becket Cook Register for the free leadership sessions or discounted tickets to the entire North Star Conference, March 5-7, 2020

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Tony Overbay is a marriage and family therapist, author, speaker and podcast host. He began his career in the high tech world but felt the call to become a therapist and help men. For the past 14 years, he has been a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in Roseville, California. While Tony grew up in Utah, he is an adult convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He has been married 28 years, is a father of four, an ultra-marathoner, host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, author of He's a Porn Addict…Now What?, creator of The Path Back pornography recovery program, and currently serves on the Leading Saints Professional Therapists Advisory Board. In this episode, Kurt and Tony discuss how leaders can deal with co-dependency, overcoming the nice guy syndrome, and how we can be more successful focusing on values instead of goals. Highlights 4:00 Co-dependency: what is it?14:30 Nice guy syndrome in leaders = co-dependency17:20 Acceptance and Commitment Therapy20:00 God isn't disappointed in me24:25 Bad things happening aren't correlated to our behavior30:35 Relief Society President example31:40 Values and the Bishop Monson dynamic36:40 System vs. goals37:45 As you make goals, focus on values that you've established41:30 As an organization (or ward) we should be focused on values, not goals47:00 How do we see signs that we're trapped in the nice guy syndrome?55:00 Values: find what's important to you1:00:00 Truth, beauty, and goodness1:04:00 Values vs. identity1:06:00 The importance of vulnerability as a leader Links TonyOverbay.com He's a Porn Addict...Now What?: An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions Clarifying Values PDF, from The Confidence Gap by Russ Harris

Diljeet Taylor is the Brigham Young University Women's Cross Country Coach and Associate Director of Cross Country and Track and Field, and came to BYU in 2016 after the previous coach retired. She ran for Cal State Stanislaus and for the Nike Farm Olympic development team, then coached at Menlo College and later replaced her own coach at Cal State Stanislaus. A three time All-American herself, she has coached 23 All-Americans and led the BYU Women's Cross Country team from 19th to second place nationally in only four years. Diljeet and her husband Ira have two children, Taj and Avi.Highlights 04:35 Running and coaching history and how she ended up at BYU 06:30 Embraced the standards because it is similar to how she was raised, even though she is not a member of the Church 07:40 Coaching cross country involves both the physical and especially the mental components 08:45 Her first goal was to bring the team back to national relevance 10:10 The team gets the recognition they need from the school and feel valued and supported; it consists of 35 women who are part of “the sisterhood” 13:10 Leading young women is about empowering them, advocating for them, and teaching them to build each other up instead of comparing and competing 15:15 Get reminders daily so they can compare themselves to where they have been, and work toward their own goals; each has their own challenges 17:30 Talking about their dreams; the five most important words are “How can I help you?”The way you can teach them to achieve their dreams and goals is to help them achieve the goals they are working toward right now, which for the team members right now is personal growth in running20:30 Bringing their individual goals together as a team happens through focusing on the journey and not the outcome 22:15 Establishing a culture of support by writing note cards to team members before every race, and an empowering culture of relationshipsEmphasizing how important it is to genuinely care about the person next to you The locker room: the teammates who are left home from meets aren’t left out because they are the supporters in the culture of sisterhood and recognize this is something bigger than one person30:45 “Athletes don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care” 32:40 Transparency is the key to making the tough calls and dealing with the disappointment of staying home in the locker room35:45 Being honest even when you have to be tough: the athletes also know that when she says positive things, she means it 36:45 Knowing which athletes can handle or even need tough love Giving feedback through two things they’re doing well and one thing to improve on If an athlete seems unable to handle the tough love, it means the relationship isn’t strong enough39:20 Drama and conflict with young adult women: They learn to handle it because they learn to be confident women and to step away from the comparison mindset; acknowledging that drama and conflict is part of being human, and validating and normalizing their feelings 42:00 How to diminish the comparison component: Comparison is the thief of joyYou can’t go through life without experiencing the success of others, but someone else’s success doesn’t take away from yours Being happy for others while still being very competitive45:20 Time and vulnerability are most important in creating connection so you have to be vulnerable as a leader, get out of your comfort zone, and put in the time to build a relationship47:20 Admitting when you’ve made a mistake48:30 No overall approach: each athlete has individual goals and training plans 50:30 Athletics activities for young women: sign up for a 5k together so they can train together and work toward a goal togetherLinks Twitter: @BYUTFXC BYU Track & Field and Cross Country BYU Summer Cross Country camps

Richie T. Steadman is a radio host, producer, actor, and founder of the Latter-day Saint podcast, “The Cultural Hall”, where he has been entertaining and informing since 2011. Richie worked for 16 years as the producer of the popular Utah radio show, “Radio from Hell”, and now works for Brigham Young University Broadcasting. Richie served a mission in Cleveland, Ohio, and lives in Salt Lake City, Utah. Highlights 8:25 The Cultural Hall history 10:25 Richie’s experiences in radio 13:00 Growing up in the Church 18:50 Serving in the elders quorum presidency 20:30 Handling moving in the elders quorum 24:15 Making meetings run on time 28:45 Just download this Tools app already and update your photo and information 32:35 On marriage and divorce 38:20 Reaching out to Church leaders for counsel and why it didn’t help 39:15 On anger with God 39:50 Dating and marrying a nonmember 46:10 Thinking differently and asking why 48:20 Church discipline experiences and what we can learn from it 57:20 Attending church as an excommunicated member 59:00 How might it have been handled differently? Links theculturalhall.com Twitter: @TheCulturalHall and @RichieTSteadman BYU Radio: The Lisa Show

Kim Partridge is originally from West Valley City, Utah, and has lived in Phoenix, Arizona for 20 years. She is a nurse and a life coach for teenage girls, has served as a Young Women’s President, and currently serves in her stake Young Women’s presidency. Kim and her husband are the parents of four children. Highlights 7:40 Young Women are all about relationships 9:50 Conflicts within relationships can play out in the church setting12:00 Micromanaging relationships seldom works out well; story of two Laurels 17:30 Story of young woman whose grandmother asked that they invite her into Young Women’s: grandma was angry that she hadn’t been welcomed like she wanted 23:40 Everyone cannot always have a fantastic time24:30 She learned that she needed to know what the young women wanted25:00 They wanted to do activities similar to what the young men were doing 26:45 Target shooting at her first girl’s camp 29:00 Goal to connect with the young women at camp 33:20 Expectation that they will tell her what they want: get interested/pay attention to the clues36:00 She encourages fun with everything but also balances that with the spiritual aspects 38:15 Admit when you make a mistake: left someone behind 42:00 Making sure the youth are handling their goals without the adults always pushing45:00 Go back to the basics, help them recognize what they want, and know that they are developing a relationship with Jesus Christ49:00 Request for a change from physical challenges to an embroidery challenge 51:45 Grand Canyon activity: what the girls learned while doing a hard thing 59:35 Leading young women has developed her relationship with the Savior Links Kim Partridge, Teen Girls Coach

Melody Warnick is an author and freelance journalist living in Blacksburg, Virginia. Her book, This Is Where You Belong: Finding Home Wherever You Are, investigates and experiments with the sense of connection that binds some of us to our cities and increases our physical and emotional well-being. Melody lives in Blacksburg, Virginia, where her husband serves as a stake president. Highlights 5:30 Serving in Melody’s stake in Virginia 8:20 How the book came about 10:50 Experiments in loving where you live: micro-action steps you can intentionally take to create positive experiences for yourself 18:45 Applying these principles to wards and stakes19:20 Creating a community based on geography creates a situation where we can practice being more Christlike 21:50 Benefits of “instant community” in the ward, as compared to moving for people not in the Church tribe: familiarity and similarity25:45 When you struggle fitting into the community26:25 Leaders need to pay attention to these people 27:30 The more engaged you are, the more you will feel at home 28:30 Everyone can feel left out or like they don’t fit in 30:10 Being proactive can have a big impact34:00 Serving in callings and outside of callings: have a personal ministry from a desire to be of service37:35 Taking your talent to the community41:30 Do we have to participate in the Church community?43:30 It can be easier to socialize with Church members46:10 Serving in a Church community within the larger community50:55 Being the mayor of your street: building social cohesion in your neighborhood54:40 Cliques and community: creating horseshoes, not circles 59:00 Detaching from your ward and going forward: moving or changing callings 1:07:00 Choosing to live near family… or not 1:13:00 Finding joy wherever you live 1:15:00 Two-hour church and missing connections: You don’t have to ask permission to create community 1:17:45 Asking, “Where are we needed?” 1:20:00 Building relationships with people and finding ways to serve them is key to living a Christlike life Links melodywarnick.com This is Where You Belong, by Melody Warnick

Clint Pulver is a motivational keynote speaker, author, musician, and workforce expert. An authority on employee retention, Clint helps organizations retain, engage, and inspire their team members. One focus of his work has been helping organizations connect with younger generations through his work and research as “The Undercover Millennial”. Clint was a professional drummer for over 20 years and has appeared on America’s Got Talent and in feature films. Highlights 06:50 How Clint got involved in leadership training; “Be a Mr. Jensen” story 12:45 Every person you’re leading is asking, “Let me know when you get to the part about me”; advocating vs. developing 15:45 How advocacy and development looks: Status interviews—checking vital signs to find healthy stability long-term 20:18 The leader must be the person who sees worth and potential in individuals 22:45 Mentorship is different than leadership: it is always earned 24:00 Five characteristics that create a mentor: Confidence, competence, candor, caring ability, credibility 26:00 Connecting to youth: Creating an opportunity for them to feel the Spirit 28:30 Speaking with vulnerability and asking good questions creates relatability and connection, developing an environment where the Spirit can enter 35:00 Connect, communicate potential and worth, become the advocate and take a real interest in what they love 37:30 Start with their technology; utilize their world: have text conversations and then move to the harder questions and it will lead to more connection away from the technology 41:50 Making real connections is serving as Christ did Links Video: Be a Mr. Jensen ClintPulver.com

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Joe Staples is the Chief Marketing Officer at Motivosity. His entire professional career has been in the technology sector with the last 20 years being in marketing executive positions. Joe grew up in Las Vegas, Nevada and converted to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints right after his high school graduation. He attended Brigham Young University and says that if you ever want to have a lot of friends, register as a non-member at BYU. Joe and his wife are the parents of five children and 16 grandchildren. He has served as a bishop in Seattle and is currently serving as the Stake President of the Sandy Utah Willow Creek Stake. Highlights 05:30 – Friends got him interested in Church. 17-18 years old is a common age for people to join the Church. Friends asked him a couple of times before he listened to the missionaries. 08:00 – Used to sneak into MTC prior to his mission just to listen to the devotionals 08:50 – Served a full-time mission to Brazil after spending 4 ½ months in MTC and then 4 months in the Boston mission before finally getting his visa for Brazil 09:45 – Experience of being called as Stake President 18 months ago 10:55 – Advice for incoming leaders 17:00 – APPRECIATION FOR OTHERS AND GIVING THANKS –As leaders we have the ability to help members feel appreciated for all they do. 18:45 – Getting past the appreciative clichés so that members feel leaders’ sincerity in appreciation 20:10 – Most people want feedback; we’re all somewhat blind to our blindspots 21:45 – Is there a point where we have to be concerned with too much appreciation? 23:10 – A BELIEVING HEART 24:55 – Knowing one truth is a connection to other truths – encourage people to ask questions, but also to have and cultivate a believing heart. 26:30 – As a leader you have to be empathetic. Everyone’s faith journeys are different. 27:20 – JUST GO HELP PEOPLE – No need to wait for the assignment, just be about doing good 30:15 – START WITH THE END IN MIND – What do I want to accomplish in this calling? 29:46 – THE VALUE OF COUNSELORS – invaluable when used properly 31:15 – Conversation with his counselor – What do you think your role entails? 32:00 – The Amulek Concept: Being the Second Witness 33:10 – Presidency survival trip – develop a greater love for one another and to faithfully rely upon each other 36:00 – HUMANIZE LEADERS – Allow members to see your imperfections – be vulnerable and relatable to allow you to be approachable 38:00 – What does this look like? It’s how you talk with and get to know people. Be deliberate. 40:00 – Biggest lesson learned as SP: Never get between the member and Holy Ghost and their growth with personal revelation. 42:00 – Blessing of being a Church leader: Becoming a better disciple of Jesus Christ and helping others do the same.

Heather Choate Heather is the mother of seven children, with another on the way. She was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 29 while pregnant with her sixth child and had both chemotherapy and surgery during the pregnancy, followed by multiple rounds of chemo and radiation treatments. The baby survived and Heather later wrote a book about the experience. The Choate family lives in Pueblo, Colorado, where Heather is currently a Relief Society teacher.Highlights 6:00 Heather found an aggressive form of hormone-sensitive breast cancer at age 29 while pregnant with their sixth child, and they were told to abort the baby to stop the hormones that were feeding the cancer. Went through four rounds of chemotherapy and surgery while pregnant. 10:55 No doubts about the decision despite doubts that she could handle it herself 12:30 Most difficult moment was going alone into surgery at 28-weeks in the pregnancy; surrendered the life of her child into God’s hands 16:30 Treatment began again six days after she gave birth, and the intense chemotherapy, radiation, and surgery began again—this time with a newborn and young family of eight 18:30 The feeling of “I don’t know what to do” was mutual and she was challenged and humbled with accepting help; be aware of that feeling and be willing to ask what can be done 21:30 The ward made it possible for her husband to be home with the family for four months 23:00 Seemingly-small things can be profound for everyone involved 26:00 Listen for guidance from the Spirit and be open to the answers, and God will provide them Shanda Miller Shanda grew up in Brigham City, Utah, and served a mission to Chicago, Illinois. She and her husband have three children—including twins—and went through six years of infertility. Shanda went into labor 23 weeks into the pregnancy with the twins (Memphis and Savannah), who were born four months early. They are now 2.5 years old. Memphis spent eight months in the hospital, has had eleven surgeries, and is deaf and nearly blind. Savannah spent seven months in the hospital, has hydrocephalus, and has had twelve surgeries. They both also have cerebral palsy as well as mental and physical delays.Highlights 28:35 Three kids through invitro fertilization and thrilled they were having twins 30:45 At 23 weeks in the pregnancy, prior to the time of viability, she went into labor and they were told they had to choose between letting the children be born, holding them, and letting them go, or fighting through intense medical treatment with only a 10% chance that they would even survive 33:00 They made it to 24 weeks and she had an emergency c-section; two difficult days to work through the difficulty of making that choice 38:00 Still moving forward with faith through challenges 40:15 Unexpected so there was no plan and they did not even know what they needed; the ward took care of their daughter Lila so Shanda could spend her time at the NICU, and then someone came every morning and every evening after the babies were home just to help with whatever was needed 44:10 She was also exhausted from asking for help; the ward paid for postpartum doulas to continue coming and supporting Shanda 47:00 Needs changed and the ward was open to working through that, being aware, checking in, talking sincerely, and observing what was needed—often before they even realized what they needed—from both the Relief Society and elders quorum 50:00 Difficulty of asking for and accepting help; it’s too easy to say, “We’re fine”; if you think of something they might need, it’s probably inspiration and they probably need it 52:00 Passed lists through meetings; practice vulnerability and be open to negotiating what can and should be done as time passes 54:40 They felt the need to give back and looked for their own small ways to serve others; service fatigue and receiving fatigue 57:00 Unity with the ward has come through their service together; letting others in and being vul...

Kurt Francom, Brent Daines, Jason CoombsJason Coombs is professional speaker, author, entrepreneur, and former addict. A Utah native, he lives in the Boise, Idaho area with his wife and 3-year-old twins. They own Brick House Recovery, a treatment program in Boise and Idaho Falls. Kurt previously interviewed Jason as part of the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit.Brent Daines was Jason's bishop from 2006 to 2011. Brent now serves in a stake presidency, lives in Bountiful, Utah, and is the father of seven. Highlights 6:30 Jason’s story started with an auto accident 7:45 Jason is the grandson of President James E. Faust, and at the time attended church weekly but wasn’t living close to the Spirit. Went to lunch with a friend from work who connected him to a doctor prescribing opioids 12:30 Ignored the warnings in his head but justified his actions and saw the doctor 16:00 The physician was indicted for fraud five months later, sending 139 addicted patients to the street for drugs 22:00 Didn’t believe he had a problem, but had merely been “found out”; marriage failed and was homeless and living in a very dark place 24:30 Incarcerated and in a drug court program but couldn’t stop using 25:25 Brent received a phone call from Jason’s ex-wife and went to see him in jail 28:15 Brent had been prepared by his experience with his brother and was able to see Jason as Christ sees him 32:10 There will be a few people who are greatly affected by you during your time serving as a church leader 36:00 Called President Faust at Jason’s request and learned more about coming to this from a place of love 38:30 Weekly visits from Brent led to hope for Jason, but he was still not ready to commit to change for four years after being released from jail. Brent would still appear at critical points in Jason’s life. 42:00 Brent could still feel Heavenly Father’s love for Jason, even though it seemed his actions were not helping 44:10 Jason made the decision to change after his son was born and in intensive care, but still went through rehab five times before he was able to complete the 12 steps and fully change 47:45 Made a final confession to Bishop Daines, in spite of his fears about judgment and excommunication 50:30 Immersed himself in friendship with others who were actively recovering, made good decisions, and changed his perspective on church discipline; Brent was his advocate through all of this 55:50 The challenge of self-forgiveness and recognizing Jesus Christ as your personal savior Links Unhooked: How to Help an Addicted Loved One Recover, by Jason Coombs Brick House Recovery Liberating Saints Virtual Summit

Jason Hunt has a PhD in endocrine physiology and teaches pre-med classes at Brigham Young University-Idaho. He is currently serving as a young single adult bishop and has previously served in a stake presidency and a bishopric.Highlights 7:15 Culture and rules are not doctrinal 9:20 Keyholder applications are different from personal applications 11:00 Elder Bednar’s concept of applications: Doctrines are statements. Principles are embedded in the doctrines and tell us what we should do. They never change. Applications change. 14:50 Keyholder applications hold true when the keyholder is saying them and would apply to those who are within their responsibility, and they do not extend beyond 18:10 Cultural norms are applications that have extended beyond their boundaries 19:00 How you view these cultural norms depends on your personal moral theory. The most common are:Consequential theorist: consequences Obligation theorist: rules Divine theorist: what God has said Egoist: personal priorities25:00 The best leadership should be able to move between these theories 27:30 When you understand these moral frameworks, how different people respond to the culture makes more sense. Cognitive development also applies. 30:30 Jason’s experience considering the story of Noah 34:30 It’s important to be open and talk about things, even if you don’t have the answers 36:30 Stephen R. Covey: Listen with the intent to understand, not to answer 39:30 Pornography, brain addiction science, and the bladder comparison. Identify the justifications. Ensure they trust and are comfortable and willing to share. 44:00 The response depends again on the personal moral theories of everyone involved 47:00 The Holy Ghost knows what needs to happen and we can be open to that and understand that there can be different consequences for different people 47:40 Have empathy for people with different moral theories and respect them for their approach 49:00 The divine command theorist must be doctrinally grounded or there can be misapplication within the culture. Examples that happen in a YSA ward. 53:20 Egoism: put the mask on first 55:30 When you are working with a leader who is coming from a different moral framework there will be friction and it requires greater empathy. We have to learn to step into different quadrants and embrace the differences of opinion 58:45 A mission is not a saving ordinance. The temple is the culminating event with the saving ordinances and that is where the focus needs to be. 1:00:10 Jason’s motorcycle example compared to technology use: youth do not have the ability to utilize their agency, so they need stages of responsibility Links Leading Saints LIVE with Jason Hunt: Series of books by David A. Bednar: Increase in Learning - Spiritual Patterns for Obtaining Your Own Answers Act in Doctrine - Spiritual Patterns for Turning from Self to the Savior Power to Become - Spiritual Patterns for Pressing Forward with a Steadfastness in Christ

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Mark Mathews was born in Houston, TX. He served a mission in Guatemala, and met his wife at Brigham Young University. He later earned a Ph.D. in education from Utah State University. He has been involved with Seminaries and Institutes for 15 years. He is a favorite attraction teaching at BYU Education Week for many interested in learning about the temple experience.Mark Mathews Highlights2:50: Mark’s recent BYU Education Week presentation was on the temple, motivating Leading Saints to have a podcast on how best leaders can prepare members to attend the temple for the first time. How does Mark as a bishop help members have a positive first-time experience? 5:00: Members have a natural desire to better understand the temple. Early chapters in the Book of Moses are an excellent template and place to start when studying the endowment ceremony. 6:45: Experiencing the endowment by viewing the video combined with the attendance of the Holy Ghost is akin to having a vision. Joseph Smith did the same for the early saints when the endowment ceremony was acted out. 7:45: The “practical” approach of reviewing the worthiness standard, explaining what can be shared about temple clothing, is still very vague. 8:33: Elder Bednar’s talk Seek Learning by Faith: “The most important learnings of life are caught—not taught.” Speaking at or telling people what to do or how to prepare may not be fully absorbed. Providing members with materials that they can read over time and with the attendance of the Holy Ghost is far more effective in helping them “catch” and discover truth for themselves. See “Links” section below. 10:30: How we can better understand what leaders can say about the temple. 13:08: Quoting Elder Bednar:“Two basic guidelines can help us achieve the proper understanding emphasized by President Benson. “Guideline #1. Because we love the Lord, we always should speak about His holy house with reverence. We should not disclose or describe the special symbols associated with the covenants we receive in sacred temple ceremonies. Neither should we discuss the holy information that we specifically promise in the temple not to reveal. “Guideline #2. The temple is the house of the Lord. Everything in the temple points us to our Savior, Jesus Christ. We may discuss the basic purposes of and the doctrine and principles associated with temple ordinances and covenants.”14:40: Preventing members from feeling uncomfortable about temple worship after their initial experience. Help members understand that “the ultimate purpose of the temple endowment is to bring us into the presence of God.” 19:37: How to come into the presence of God: one must be prepared through ancient ritual, instruction, and covenant--all of which are part of the endowment ceremony.Washing and anointing Symbolism of “pouring” Temple garments and other sacerdotal vestments CovenantsLaw of Obedience Law of Sacrifice Law of Gospel Law of Chastity Law of Consecration24:39: Covenants provide us with “clean hands and a pure heart”; members are now ready for instruction.Creation Fall Atonement25:40: Study the Book of Moses. 27:15: A focus on the law of consecration: one big misunderstandings that many Latter-day Saints have: the law of consecration is much broader than the United Order: tithing, time, means, generous fast offerings, responding to church callings and assignments. 30:35: More on the covenants we make. 32:23: How members experience the Plan of Salvation through the endowment ceremony, supported again by the pillars of Creation, Fall, and Atonement. 36:05: Creation and Fall are relatively obvious; where is the Atonement in the temple? 38:18: Additional leadership actions that can help prepare initiates. Again: study the Book of Moses. 39:40: The creation of Adam and Eve wasn’t simply the creation of man and woman: it was the creation of mar...

Elder Dennis B. Neuenschwander, an emeritus general authority seventy since 2008, is presently a traveling patriarch in the Baltic region. Of Swiss heritage, he was born and raised in Utah, living in both Salt Lake City and Ogden. As a youth he was active in the church’s sports, music and speech activities and served a 30-month mission in Finland from 1959-1962. As a full-time missionary he was assigned to teach Finnish to fellow missionaries during much of his mission.Following missionary service, and without any defined career plans, Elder Neuenschwander earned degrees at Weber State and Brigham Young University. Subsequently he obtained masters and PhD degrees in Russian and Russian literature from Syracuse University in New York. He became a visiting professor at the University of Utah and BYU (one year each) before accepting full-time employment with what is now called the Family History Department of the Church.The latter employment required living abroad and involved the acquisition of genealogical documents in Eastern European countries by working with Catholic and Protestant archivists and religious officials. He was then called to serve as a mission president of the newly formed Austria Vienna East Mission before serving as a member of the Second Quorum of the Seventy and then the First Quorum of Seventy. As a seventy, Elder Neuenschwander served as president of the Europe East Area and as a member of the Presidency of the Seventy. As a traveling patriarch he makes quarterly trips to the Baltic region, giving sometimes as many as four or five patriarchal blessings per day. He and the late LeAnn (Clement) raised four children. Highlights 11:00 Leadership patterns. Having never served in a bishopric, stake presidency or elder’s quorum presidency, where was he to turn? 12:45 Professional work in Eastern Europe; presentation to Russian Embassy in D.C. Five years abroad. 16:00 Called as mission president in Eastern Europe, 1987. Lived in Vienna but his responsibilities were in Poland, Greece, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Cyprus and Czechoslovakia. What the Church was like at that time of communist rule. Traveling “light.” 20:35 Family life living in Europe with children prior to mission president calling. 22:25 Called to serve as mission president by Elder Russell M. Nelson. Five weeks to prepare. By then he had been living or traveling in the region for 13 years on professional assignments. 27:00 His missionary force initially included 12 elders and a dozen couples. The challenge to form relationships of trust with local governments to permit a growing church presence. Elders Russell M. Nelson and Hans B. Ringer had laid the groundwork. These were years (1987-1991) of tremendous change in Eastern Europe including the falling of the Berlin Wall and the dissolution of the Soviet Union. 29:45 Establishing a pattern of church development that would stand the test of time—the pattern of the priesthood. Many people who were not members began attending church. Insisting on speaking the language of the country. Organizing missionary zones and church branches in geographically large area. Structure vs. autonomy. 36:45 Being empowered to solve problems. A significant priesthood principle is taught by Elder Ringer re: the overwhelming challenge of having few laws to facilitate rental of properties, visas, missionary travel, getting money and materials to missionaries, etc. “President, we sent you there to solve those problems, not to complain about them.” 44:00 “Brethren, we are builders of the Kingdom, not its caretakers.” (Elder Carlos Asay) By the end of 1990 various independent missions had been created out of his mission and President Neuenschwander was left with Yugoslavia and 12 missionaries. In Oct. 1990 missionaries were placed in the Ukraine, then Bulgaria and Romania. Served four years as mission president until his mission could be dissolved. 50:30 Without priesthood keys you have a social organizati...

Robert Millet, Ph.D., is an author, speaker, and professor of ancient scripture and emeritus Dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University. Author of 76 published works, he has been involved in BYU Education Week for many years and is well-known as a commentator on the BYUTV Scripture Discussions program. He is also Manager of Outreach and Interfaith Relations for the LDS Church’s Public Affairs Department.Brother Millet's most recent book is The Holy Spirit: His Identity, Mission and Ministry. His decision to write about this topic is related to his fascination with the work of The Holy Spirit. It is so frequently referred to and discussed, but we might not appreciate all that it is. Highlights 3:00 Strategy for covering topics: he makes a list and works on it daily, narrowing it down over a period of weeks/months to develop the book. Work on prophetic statements that relate and continue narrowing the information. Also asking “what experiences have I had with this”. He wanted to cover the topics of sons of perdition, the light of Christ, and God's power.13:00 How, as leaders, can we have a better understanding of the Holy Spirit: having it, losing it, etc.13:47 What does it mean to “lose the Holy Ghost”? We lose feeling, we withdraw ourselves. You can’t take a vacation from the Spirit – you can’t sit still; you either fall back or move forward19:45 The Holy Ghost “strives with us”. It “battles with us”. There will always be an element of the Spirit to help you; you can’t “lose it”. All people can have the Spirit. They may not have the gift of the Holy Ghost that comes from baptism, but they certainly can have the Spirit and inspiration.25:40 How do you know when a sin is forgiven? Study Mosiah 4:1-3 (joy, peace of conscience, larger measure of the Spirit). “Just don’t do things that are offending to the Spirit.”28:40 Where is “grace” in the doctrine? The Holy Ghost is an act of God's grace to us. We can put ourselves in a position to receive that gift by our actions. “The sun doesn’t stop shining just because I put a bag over my head, it continues to shine”. It is the same with God; He loves us through everything.32:30 Justification and Sanctification44:10 Be cautious about “I feel impressed that…” It is good to teach what you feel, but if you announce that it came from the Spirit, it comes across as boastful.45:35 How about church callings and the Spirit? If you pray to start a meeting and pray for the Spirit to guide decisions, you don’t need to kneel individually about all decisions. As we strive to live our lives to keep the Spirit with us, we will see that the Holy Ghost has been guiding us in all decisions and shaped our lives. Those decisions were inspired, and hopefully good judgement. We don’t need to pray over every decision. “The spirit prepares us today for decisions we have to make in the future.”53:00 Joseph McConkie story about calling Stake Presidents: The Lord fits us to our assignments. “God honors the servant”. Difference of being called “by God” or “of God”.55:00 Final story related again to his friend Joseph McConkie, prior to him leaving to Scotland as a Mission President. Asked him if he had read everything and felt prepared. “What do you think?” He said, “What could cause us not to worry about 63 rules? I will teach my missionaries this: never do anything that would cost you the influence of the Holy Spirit.” That is a great standard to live by. Callings in the Church are not to be superheroes but to live in the way to be directed by the Holy Spirit. It is a solemn responsibility. Mosiah 26: Alma “feared that he would not do right”. As leaders we need to strive to do that. Links The Holy Spirit: His Identity, Mission, and Ministry Grace in the Bishop’s Office | An Interview with Robert MilletPhoto of Robert Millet by Richard Crookston

Davis Smith is the founder-CEO of Cotopaxi, an outdoor gear brand based in Salt Lake City, Utah with a social mission at its core. Cotopaxi focuses on using the power of business as a force for social, environmental, and economic good. Davis is a serial e-commerce entrepreneur, having started and sold several businesses. His father worked for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Latin America and Davis grew up there. He served a church mission to Bolivia, is married with 4 children, and currently serves in a Stake Presidency. Highlights5:40 What is Cotopaxi 6:35 Davis Smith's childhood in Latin America 10:55 His faith development and church mission to Bolivia 15:20 After his mission 16:25 Being inspired by entrepreneur Steve Gibson 18:55 His first business in Brazil 20:00 Where Cotopaxi began 22:40 The social mission of Cotopaxi 27:15 How can we in church leadership find our missions and carry them out? 31:10 How to help others that don't see the vision of our mission 32:20 Leadership practices of a good leader 35:00 When you care about people, they are open to feedback 37:05 Culture in leadership: defining core values and traditions 41:15 "When we look outside ourselves we're able to connect with God" 42:40 Experience in a Stake Presidency 44:45 How to help those that have faith that has been challenged and changed 46:20 Compassionate leadershipLinks Radical Candor, by Kim Scott Cotopaxi.com Instagram: @davismsmith

Barbara Morgan Gardner is an associate professor of Church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University, and the author of The Priesthood Power of Women. Her research interests focus primarily on women in religious leadership, international education, and religious pedagogy. She holds a master's degree in educational leadership and foundations and a PhD in instructional psychology, and did post-doctoral work at Harvard University. Barbara was institute director in Boston, Massachusetts, serving more than 100 universities and colleges in the area and acting as chaplain at Harvard and MIT. She continues to serve as the chaplain-at-large in higher education for The Church, and on the BYU Interfaith Outreach Council. She and her husband, Dustin Gardner, live in Highland, Utah. Highlights 05:40 - Why was the book written: to help women and understand what priesthood is 09:25 - Barbara realized that many members and leaders didn’t separate the hierarchical structure of the priesthood and the patriarchal structure of the priesthood. She wanted to help women to understand the prophet has been asking us to learn more about the priesthood. 10:00 - Barbara became more frustrated with women who are not interested in learning about the priesthood than those who are and who may even be unhappy. 11:45 - Is this information on the priesthood power of women new, or would someone historical like David O.McKay be aware of it? 13:00 - Are we shoehorning this doctrine into today’s culture because more women are asking questions? 14:45 - Russell M. Nelson has been asking women to study and know this doctrine. 16:50 - What is the difference between the hierarchical and patriarchal structure of the priesthood? 19:10 - Why don’t we talk about the patriarchal structure of the priesthood? 21:05 - Elder and Sister Renlund’s notions of Big Earth and Little Earth priesthood ties in 23:40 - What are priesthood keys and who holds priesthood keys? 28:50 - How are keys different relating to the hierarchical and patriarchal priesthoods? Who is “in charge” in a family? What does presiding mean in a family vs the church structure? Who has keys in a temple? In a mission? 38:55 - What does it mean that keys will be revealed? 39:20 - General priesthood keys vs keys of presiding 41:15 - What priesthood keys do women have? 43:10 - What can a key holder do in a ward to highlight and enable the priesthood power and authority of women? 48:20 - List of questions that are found in the book 49:30 - Who outranks whom when men and women have disagreements at church? 50:35 - Someone has to preside, right? 53:00 - One way priesthood holders diminish authority of women in their homes 55:00 - How can we better understand and improve the revelatory process of submitting names for callings? 1:02:10 - Women of this time have been prophesied about 1:03:00 - It’s never a competition. Men can do more in partnership with women to save souls than they could alone. Links The Priesthood Power of Women: In the Temple, Church, and Family, by Barbara Morgan Gardner

In this podcast, Kurt interviews Mary Alice Hatch, who is serving as the Relief Society President in her California ward, and Søs Gram, who is serving as a Stake Relief Society President in Germany. Sister Mary Alice Hatch Mary Alice Hatch lives in San Clemente, California. She is originally from Potomac, Maryland, a mother of two, has previously served as a Young Women's president, twice in Relief Society presidencies and in a stake Relief Society presidency, and also serves as a temple worker. She co-hosts the What Now Podcast, addressing cultural stigmas surrounding topics in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in an effort to create more understanding, hope and healing. 9:00 Her son’s mission story and how that experience led to starting a podcast 16:25 Where the podcast has gone from there 22:00 Leaning on the Lord as a Relief Society President: confirmation and motivation that this was the right thing and the Lord would sustain her, and felt she needed to be even more thoughtful when choosing her counselors Principles:26:40 Delegation and empowerment: Allows her counselors to do what they want and need to do for meetings and other tasks without her direction or input; ask questions instead of commanding change when something seems questionable 30:30 Maintaining composure: Others will mirror how you are behaving, so if there’s a crisis it’s important not to panic (and to have a sense of humor) 33:30 Staying humble and going to the Lord: makes you more receptive and in tune with the Spirit36:20 Mix of different people in her ward, including military wives. Created walking groups of women on the military base and weekly at the beach, a monthly birthday social, a cooking class, and a writing group. 42:15 Ministering interviews: split up between her and her counselors, meet with the same people every quarter, and make sure they connect Sister Søs Gram Søs Gram was born and raised in Denmark, and moved to Frankfurt, Germany, for her husband's job with the translation department of the Church about 20 years ago. She is a language teacher, teaching English and Danish, and has previously served as a ward Relief Society President. 48:10 Attended an international ward for many years, and are now in a German branch in Frankfurt. There are 14 stakes and 3 missions in Germany. Her farthest unit is about 90 minutes away by car. 50:15 Frankfurt temple reopening soon and Elder Uchtdorf will be there for the rededication 51:25 Her call as a stake Relief Society President came as a surprise following many years in music callings Principles:54:20 Counseling with stake president as well as counselors: maintains an open conversation with the stake president, participation in community activity, sitting on the stand at stake conference, working as a team with her counselors and the high council 1:00:10 Delegation: ask others to return and report, and to do things their own way 1:01:40 Enabling: Give others opportunities to do things that may be difficult, but will stretch them1:02:15 Ministering is a real challenge with the travel involved. One ward had an all-day ministering interview plan, another uses WhatsApp. 1:07:00 Ministering interviews involved some ministering to the sisters in the interview, taking notes to refer to next time 1:08:45 Presidency meetings work better for them to meet in person, and they use WhatsApp for daily communication 1:11:30 Arranging temple trips for the sisters in the stake while the Frankfurt temple has been closed Links What Now Podcast on iTunes and Spotify What Now Podcast on Instagram @podcastwhatnow, Twitter @podcastwhatnow, and Facebook What Now Podcast website

Tanya Bennion is a mother and graphic designer/web developer, and enjoys photography and travel. She grew up in Wyoming, served a mission in Fukuoka, Japan, and attended school at the University of Wyoming, BYU, and American University. Tanya and her first husband, Bailey, were married just over two years before he passed away. She and her second husband, Jeff, have one son and live in the Salt Lake City area. Highlights 06:45 Whirlwind romance; met and married Bailey in six months 07:45 He was a convert and they married in the Timpanogos temple 09:30 Six weeks into the marriage, they found a lump on his neck and he had Hodgkin’s Lymphoma. She knew she would be a widow soon. 11:00 Rollercoaster of medical problems during their short marriage, and he died shortly after being declared clear of cancer, two years three months into their marriage; she was 25 13:25 Experience finding him at home 16:40 He was her knight in shining armor, and she had to pick up the pieces 17:30 Grief group was run by nuns, for women 65 and younger, and no one in the group understood her experience, but she found that it was still very helpful for her because she was talking about it. Stayed for a year to reduce potential for additional trauma. 20:00 Social relationships changed because of the uncomfortable circumstances, but her visiting teachers were her rock and one young girl at church sat with her every week; any conversation is good and better than ignoring 23:00 Men can be sealed to multiple wives while they are living, but women can only be sealed to one man while living. This is difficult for young widows because young men don’t want to date and marry someone who is already sealed to someone else. 24:45 Her advice: Talk about it every chance you can because that is how you will heal 25:30 Created a support group for young Latter-day Saint widows without children, and began serving at the Washington, D.C. temple 29:30 Dating: almost everyone lost interest as soon as they learned she was sealed to someone else. How our religious culture plays into this and what it really means. 35:05 Difficulty because there are no resources for young widows in the Church, and some policies are roadblocks despite no problems with worthiness; she has always had to teach her leaders how to deal with it because they don’t know how it all works 39:30 You are not denied any blessings or temple blessings; if you’re not sealed in this lifetime you can be sealed after, and God is just; the gospel is all faith-based and we need to believe that everything works into God’s plan 42:00 Worries as she is considering breaking the first sealing because of concerns for Bailey’s place in the sealing; understanding that sealing is both horizontal and vertical 44:15 Thoughts and feelings of disloyalty when facing breaking the sealing, but understanding that everything can be fixed 49:00 What sealing and being born in the covenant really means; avoiding the spiritual calculus when you understand how it works 55:00 The process of breaking sealings has wrinkles for widows because it is designed around sealing cancellations with divorce; be aware of the process and sensitive to its likely effects on the widow 1:06:45 Being patient and sensitive to the issue within a marriage 1:09:20 You can find support groups online and network to find support 1:11:00 How this experience has strengthened her testimony of Jesus Christ

Reverend France A. Davis has been the pastor at the Calvary Baptist Church in Salt Lake City, Utah, since 1974. He was born and raised in Georgia and attended school at Tuskegee University in Alabama, during which time he participated in marches with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. He then served in the Air Force during the Vietnam War era and later came to Salt Lake City as a teaching fellow in the Communications Department at the University of Utah. Highlights 08:00 His mentors all held the conviction that it is not enough to believe, but that you have to take action to make it a reality. They took the Bible as their guide and sought to change laws so that people were treated fairly and not mistreated due to skin color or place of origin. He has continued to do that in our community, working to make it better for everyone who might be treated unfairly. 11:15 Felt the call from God to become a leader at a young age, and was prepared when the time came and the actual call came to serve 15:30 Explanation of the process taking place now, looking for a new pastor to replace him 18:30 The process of becoming a part of the Calvary Baptist congregation 20:20 His early experience and some of the service programs the Calvary Baptist Church has worked on with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 24:15 All people need to realize that there are other people who are different, and to appreciate those differences in the religious setting. The leaders of whatever the dominant group is need to make efforts to include those people who are not part of that dominant group. 28:10 Some benefits and the more obvious negatives to having the Church so dominant in Utah 31:20 Reaching out means getting to know people and interacting with them, appreciating differences and working together, and does not mean having a hidden agenda of proselyting 35:35 The legislative process should also involve input from leaders from a diverse community and not from simply the dominant culture 37:45 Principles of leadership: Start with formal training and learning leadershipEveryone has something to say and the leader needs to listen to them To be an effective leader, you must first be a good follower Be willing to sacrifice your selfish wishes for the benefit of the total community Have a vision for how to accomplish what you want to see in the community39:30 Listen first before pronouncing your opinion 40:35 Every pastor needs a pastor, and in different settings you are a leader or a follower 42:00 Experience interviewing elderly church members who wanted a wheelchair ramp, but the congregation shot it down. He learned to talk to more people first so that everyone’s opinion is heard and they have a buy-in. 44:25 Vision is constantly changing, pointing the people forward to what they want to see happen in the future 46:40 How confession is handled between individuals and God 48:00 Spiritual counseling and financial or secular counseling handled separately 50:45 Being a full-time pastor means dealing with the people full-time 51:40 Worship services at the Calvary Baptist Church for those who wish to visit and worship 52:35 Leading a congregation for 45 years has helped him understand that he cannot do it alone Links Calvary Baptist Church

In this episode, Leading Saints Executive Director, Kurt Francom, shares his closing session from the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit. He approaches the subject of supporting and mentoring someone through a difficult struggle with pornography, from a doctrinal standpoint. Highlights 3:00 Approaching the topic from a doctrinal standpoint 4:20 Behaviors vs doctrine/heart 5:15 “The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel.“—Boyd K. Packer 6:40 Change the heart, leading to a change in behavior 8:00 How Satan tempts us, catching us in our own traps by creating contention in our hearts (Doctrine & Covenants 10:12, 26, 63)11:10 Satan’s attack on our identity causes contention (Moses 4:11, Matthew 4:3) 14:00 Setting our own trap (example from The Lion King) 17:15 Steve’s story of overcoming addiction19:40 Satan uses shame to alter identity“As a shame researcher, I've learned that wherever perfectionism is driving us, shame is riding shotgun.”—Brene Brown 22:20 “What does that say about you as a person?”—Sam Tielemans23:15 The adversary’s work and glory is to destroy the agency of man. Shame leads to altered identity which leads to a lack of agency. 24:55 “I am an addict”“No one wants to be defined by their hardest struggle, and so we have to find this really interesting space between owning it and identifying it but reject being labeled by it and reduced by it.”—Brene Brown 27:00 Does this reduce or expand the individual’s identity?29:50 Examples of Tom and Tim in the bishop’s office 33:10 A change of heart leads to good behaviorOffer hope Explore doctrines (especially mercy and grace) Admit you can’t “fix” them Define the purpose of the behaviors (CPR: church, prayer, read scriptures) Turn them towards their Father Overwhelm them with connection44:20 Story of James 47:45 Disappointment: another tactic of the adversaryThe principal’s office, the dentist’s office, and the bishop’s office 51:10 Contention created when we believe God is disappointed in us52:30 Can God be disappointed? Can God be surprised?Doctrine & Covenants 3:1-3 Doctrine & Covenants 10:67 “Repentance isn’t His backup plan in the event we might fail. Repentance is His plan, knowing that we will.”—Lynn G. Robbins57:10 Example of learning to walk and falling down“This shepherd, our Good Shepherd, finds joy in seeing His diseased sheep progress toward healing.”—Dale G. Renlund “A car is made to run on gasoline, and it would not run properly on anything else. Now God designed the human machine to run on himself. He himself is the fuel our spirits were designed to burn, or the food our spirits were designed to feed on. There is no other.”—C.S. Lewis1:01:15 Kurt’s scripture study shame cycle example: “You could _______ and I’d still love you.” 1:05:45 “The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us.”—C.S. Lewis 1:06:20 John 14:16 1:07:50 The Heart of Man movie clip: Think of the violin as commandments and covenants 1:10:10 If ye love me, hold on to my commandmentsAbraham 3:26, Doctrine & Covenants 78:18 Alma 33:16 Romans 8:38-391:13:50 Luke 15:20 When he was yet a great way off Links “The Atonement Works for Me”: One Couple’s Recovery from Sexual Addiction Brene Brown TED talk: Listening to Shame James' story on the Unashamed, Unafraid podcast The Heart of Man movie clip The Heart of Man movie Transcript Kurt: Everyone, this is Kurt Francom with Leading Saints, and this is another session of the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit. But this time, well, it's just with me. I hope that's okay.

Daniel Duckworth is a leadership professional. He works primarily as a transformational teacher to transform the leadership performance of executives and managers, and also as a transformational consultant to facilitate strategic execution of major change initiatives. He is affiliated with the University of Michigan Center for Positive Organizations. After a decade in Michigan, he returned to Utah, where he founded Crux Central, LLC in 2019 to facilitate his new mission to learn to make deep change accessible to the masses—not just to the executives.Highlights 07:00 Deep change for all: work experience is sucking the life out of people, and they can’t bring their best selves to their families and everything outside of work, such as church. His purpose is to help people get to the point where their work builds and motivates them instead of draining them. 09:30 Found these problems in Utah just as he had found everywhere elseWe need to change Utah doesn’t prioritize leadership development, despite a high-tech startup environment that claims to subscribe to a positive organizational culture Nice guy syndrome: the ego shifts people’s true priorities and leads to poor leadership, micromanagement, and a negative cultural dynamic18:40 Caring what other people think about you interferes with your ability to be a transformational leader 20:40 Church leadership creates subtle culture with hierarchy, but this is holding us back 22:35 Robert Quinn’s four strategies to change:Telling 24:30 Coercion 27:45 Participation 29:20 Transformation: transformational leadership lets go of control and focuses on building relationships while setting a vision and high standards30:10 Example of the ward cleaning specialist: how can I get this person to do what I want them to do? Defeating assumptions that come with that question:The task becomes more important than the relationship There is one right way to complete that task, and it’s my way (church culture is the same everywhere: not a good thing) If you don’t do it my way, there’s something wrong with you: people are problems34:35 These assumptions limit your leadership and tools: let go of control and focus first on building a perfect relationship with the custodianGet to that euphoric experience with the cleaning specialist first, and not from a hierarchical perspective: minister to the one and transform the relationship Example of the ward and stake leaders cleaning the building before an apostle visits This transformation is palpable and draws people in42:15 Example from newsletter article of a phone call from the bishop/executive secretary46:30 Defies the culture and lets go of control Jesus Christ defined transformational leadership Trust in the personal line of revelation and the relationship 50:35 Negative example of Relief Society President who was sent back seven times, and positive example of bishop and priest giving sacrament prayer with a speech impediment54:00 Start with positive deviance: there are normal leadership behaviors that the culture enforces which reinforce mediocrity 57:00 The performance standard is the covenant path: we can both set that high expectation and also draw people in through transformational leadership 59:20 Break the cultural rules, not the commandments or the policies: peel back the cultural layers and look for opportunities to create a more powerful culture with better outcomesExperiment, reflect, and learn: study how you can become better1:04:00 Examples of individuals who created programs through positive deviance: pornography self reliance group, Primary, scouting 1:07:45 Why don’t people make changes through positive deviance? Other people’s reactions paint them as laughable, unusual, or simply wrong. 1:11:50 Dan’s moment of self awareness: list of things he wants to be (not do) Links Deep Change for All

Rob Eaton is originally from Auburn, Washington and now lives in Rexburg, Idaho, where he is an Associate Academic Vice President for Learning and Teaching and a member of the religious education faculty at BYU Idaho. Rob has served as an institute director and seminary teacher, a bishop, in a stake presidency, and as a mission president in the Washington, Federal Way mission, and previously oversaw Pathway and online learning at BYU Idaho. He also worked with President Hales and President Eyring on books they have written, and currently serves as a stake president for a YSA stake. Highlights 03:00 Work and service prior to his 2013 call as a mission president, and serving in his home mission where he lived for over 30 years 06:15 Change in the transition from mission president couple, modeled after what they taught their missionaries before they returned home from their missions 08:00 Asked missionaries to create their own “Work of Salvation plan” which they reviewed at an interview prior to their release: “Freelancing for God” 10:00 Keep your purpose in sight—God’s purpose should still be your purpose—and lean in to ministering to a smaller number of people 12:30 Actively look for and pray for those informal opportunities to be an instrument in the hands of God 14:30 Being quick to observe and to serve 18:25 Asking inspired questions and doing the Lord’s work at activities will open up opportunities for relationships and service 23:45 Two questions at dinner: What did you do for someone else today? and How often did you see the hand of the Lord in your life today? 24:50 “Holy boldness”: people will not likely change unless they are invited to do so, but questions can be catalysts to change and spiritual growthNaturally-extended invitations stretch a little bit, but aren’t too uncomfortable and help instead of alienating Doing those things outside of a calling is what we have covenanted to do34:00 Introverts—those who are more naturally reserved—notice the subtle things. It is a strength, and while you may be stretched you will not be stretched too far. 38:15 Applying these principles while serving in a time-consuming calling such a bishop 43:45 Being mindful and intentional about looking for continued growth after being released from a demanding callingElder Hales quote: The quiet unnoticed corners of the kingdom Family relationships Following-up with people you served in previous callings Look for ways to build ward unityLinks David A. Bednar 2005 BYU Devotional, "Quick to Observe" Linda K. Burton 2012 conference talk, "First Observe , Then Serve" Richard G. Scott 2014 conference talk, "I Have Given You an Example"

Register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit HereThis is a clip from the upcoming Liberating Saints Virtual Summit which begins on September 10, 2019. In this clip, you will hear Jonathan Daugherty who runs an organization called Be Broken Ministries. He is going to talk about how to stimulate healthy discussion about struggles with pornography in a church setting in order to stimulate healthy culture.To hear the full interview register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit

Register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit HereThis is a clip from the upcoming Liberating Saints Virtual Summit which begins on September 10, 2019. In this clip, you will hear Geoff Streurer discuss the concept of patiently helping someone disclose their struggle with pornography and infidelity in order to help them effectively heal (and to help those around them heal as well).To hear the full interview register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit

Register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit HereThis is a clip from the upcoming Liberating Saints Virtual Summit which begins on September 10, 2019. In this clip, you will hear Jody Moore talk about the 3 J's that can help someone maintain a healthy mentality when someone they love is struggling with pornography.To hear the full interview register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit

Register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit HereThis is a clip from the upcoming Liberating Saints Virtual Summit which begins on September 10, 2019. In this clip, you will hear Anne Blythe who is the director of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, which is an organization that helps women overcome the trauma they experience in abusive relationships.To hear the full interview register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit

Frank Layden is a retired basketball coach and executive of the National Basketball Association's Utah Jazz. Layden during his coaching days was known for his lighthearted approach to the game as well as to himself, often mocking his weight and looks, and known for giving one-liners to the media before and after games. In 1984, Layden was awarded the NBA's Coach of the Year. That same season, he was head coach for the NBA All-Star Game and won both the NBA's Executive of the Year and the NBA's J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Awards. Frank Layden will be speaking at the 2019 BYU Management Society's Moral and Ethical Leadership Conference this month. Highlights 03:15 Experiences around involvement with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and what President Thomas S. Monson said about him 05:15 How he ended up in Utah with the Jazz 07:50 First knowledge and interactions with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 10:00 Approaching sports and culture in Utah with the attitude of, “What can we do to help here?” and always building relationships instead of focusing on differences 13:15 How he got into coaching 14:25 Believes his family was meant to be in Utah 14:50 How they built the Jazz up from a losing team 16:20 You’re not always going to succeed, and don’t measure your success by money; do something you like doing and involve service 17:30 Things the Jazz did to help the players and their families grow and become better than they were beforeWives club putting on fashion shows, making Christmas trees, and going to school Chapel service with the Rev. France Davis and Pastor Jerry Lewis Bonus to players who finished their college degrees20:00 If the players feel you (the coaches) are for them, they will give everything for you 21:15 Wanted the players to know they were loved. Always asked, “What can I do for you today?” 22:25 Start with the small things: be there, on time, and read to play; you have to have both authority and discipline 25:20 The players need to believe in you, and you have to believe in yourselfYou have to know who needs a kick and who needs a hug The team needs to know who the leader is Winning is not a sometimes thing: it starts the first day of practice33:15 Connecting one-to-one with the playersCreating a relationship where they are comfortable coming to you as the leader Listen to them (book club and reading) Dressing like professionals Showing the players respect and treating them like adults builds loyalty The players will know whether or not you enjoy your job Leave them laughing49:00 Being part of the religious community in Utah made him a better Catholic Links 2019 BYU Management Society Moral and Ethical Leadership Conference

Register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit HereThis is a clip from the upcoming Liberating Saints Virtual Summit which begins on September 10, 2019. In this clip, you will hear Dina Alexander who is the founder and CEO of Educate and Empower Kids. She shares some best practices of how to easily talk to kids about the dangers of pornography.To hear the full interview register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit

Register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit HereThis is a clip from the upcoming Liberating Saints Virtual Summit which begins on September 10, 2019. In this clip you hear how Steve Shields has found community from his local leaders that has helped him maintain recovery from his sexual addiction.To hear the full interivew register for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit

Whitney Woodruff was shocked when President Rob Ferrell extended the call for her to serve as the stake Relief Society president in her young single adult stake. This was a calling typically reserved for older, married women with much more experience. As a young single adult herself, she solicited the help of three other incredible women; Kaylyn Crawford, Stacie Leavitt, and Kimberly Webb. In this episode, Kurt Francom discusses with them their unique approach of visiting each Relief Society in the stake to discuss the complex topic of female pornography use and how individuals can fight through the shame and get the help to overcome this temptation.Transcript Availalbe Below Highlights4:45 Introduction of each participant and the story of how they were called to the stake Relief Society presidency 8:30 How they began to consider addressing the issue of pornography use of those in Relief Society 15:00 How they organized and formatted their lesson about avoiding pornography to the Relief Society 18:00 What feedback was received after their lesson 21:00 How this lesson impacted their presidency 24:00 Why it is important to be direct and clear in lessons about avoiding pornography 28:00 How they prepared for the lesson 30:30 The role of priesthood leaders during this lesson 32:00 How pornography is different for women compared to men 42:30 How girls/women typically learn about pornography (especially in their developmental years) 45:20 The most important topic of the lesson, the Atonement of Jesus Christ 48:00 A powerful question to begin a discussion about pornography use with men and women 50:00 How to create safety so that individuals want to talk to someone about their pornography use and get help 58:00 Advice for male priesthood leaders to effectively approach this topic 1:03:00 How to create local resources to help women struggling with pornography 1:05:00 General encouragement for other Relief Society presidenciesLinks "I am a Young Single Adult Advocate" | An Interview with Rob Ferrell Protection From Pornography—a Christ-Focused Home, by Linda S. ReevesRegister for the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit Interview Transcript Kurt: Today I am in a dentist's office, of all places, again for an interview. Thanks to President Ferrell for lining this up. This is his office. But I am going to chat with four fantastic women. Let's just have you introduce yourselves briefly to put you into context. We'll start with Whitney because you were the Relief Society president of the stake that we're referencing.Whitney: My name is Whitney Woodruff. It's been a couple of years since this all took place, but I had the opportunity to serve as a Stake Relief Society President. And I will never forget the day I was extended the call from President Ferrell and the overwhelming...He had I guess a little background. He had forewarned me that a couple of months before. I was serving as a Ward Relief president and he had put me in a PPI and we were talking, and it said, "What are your thoughts about this idea?" And I was like, whoever that happens to, I feel sorry about." Little behold that I didn't know what was coming my way. But it was a humbling experience because you get to serve with amazing women and priesthood leaders. I currently just graduated with my doctorate degree. So I work as a nurse practitioner and have loved the gospel and experiences I've had serving Relief Society.Kurt: All right. Stacie.Stacie: Awesome. Well, my name is Stacie Leavitt, which most of these people don't know me as because I was Stacie Karter back in those days. I got married. I've been married for about two years. I live in Roy and I work there as a high school math teacher, and also coach track and field. That's what I'm up to.Kurt: Awesome. Kaylyn.Kaylyn: I'm Kaylyn Crawford. I'm from West Point, Utah. I currently live in Orange County, California.

Spencer Cox is currently serving as Utah's Lieutenant Governor and running for Governor of Utah. He served as a bishop while also serving as the mayor of the town of Fairview, Utah, and currently has a calling as Primary music leader. In this interview, Kurt and Spencer discuss serving in those positions and why serving in the community matters. Highlights 04:30 Deciding to run for office; creating the RV they are using to visit cities across Utah 08:20 Where his spark of interest in politics came from 11:20 Served as a bishop while also serving as mayor of Fairview 13:45 The most challenging part of doing both 16:15 Delegating to his auxiliary leaders and choosing to focus on the youth 20:10 Putting away the list of tasks as bishop; listening for what you need to hear and not just what others are saying 27:45 Serving as Primary music leader while serving as Lt. Governor 33:30 Ben Sasse’s books, Them: Why We Hate Each Other--and How to Heal, and The Vanishing American Adult: Our Coming-of-Age Crisis--and How to Rebuild a Culture of Self-Reliance 40:00 How the concepts in these books changed his outlook on service 44:30 Obedience out of duty is exhausting and obedience from love is energizing 47:30 The Fairview dance hall, the community, and the Payson salmon supper 51:00 Why should a leader choose to serve in politics? 55:15 How serving in the Church trains leaders Links Cox & Friends podcast Twitter: @SpencerJCox LDS Primary Choristers Facebook group Books mentioned: Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln, by Doris Kearns Goodwin Them: Why We Hate Each Other--and How to Heal, by Senator Ben Sasse The Vanishing American Adult: Our Coming-of-Age Crisis--and How to Rebuild a Culture of Self-Reliance, by Senator Ben Sasse Bowling Alone, by Robert B. Putnam

David Ostler is a former bishop, stake president and mission president (Freetown, Sierra Leone). Now retired, he has a professional business background focused on executive management of bioinformatics and evidence-based medicine. A lifelong member of the Church, Brother Ostler was raised in Utah, served a mission in Japan, and received undergraduate and graduate degrees from the University of Utah and Dartmouth College respectively. He and Sister Ostler, who reside in the Washington, D.C. area, are the parents of six children. Brother Ostler has been a previous guest on Leading Saints and has participated in the Leading Saints virtual summit on the subject of “Questioning Saints.” He is the author of the 2019 book Bridges: Ministering to Those Who Question. The book is the result of research, interviews, and surveys involving former Church members or those not presently attending.Highlights 06:50 A one-size-fits-all approach to gospel learning is ineffective. Reasons people stop attending vary.09:50 Approach to surveying and writing on this subject discussed. It was vital to keep himself open to thinking about the issue in a different way.11:50 His intent was to listen and better understand the issue. Existing books did seem to help current, believing members (e.g. parents, leaders) understand the issue.13:40 Reworking the pronouns: It’s about “us”—we are all in this together, regardless of present activity status. It should not be “us versus them.” Nearly everyone has been confronted with difficult questions.15:40 How can leaders sound more inviting? Using the right language. Labels reduce people to a “them.” The term “apostate” generally means an enemy, and that does not fit most people who have left the Church. They’re not necessarily “fallen, “anti-Mormon” or “tares.”19:00 We all struggle in some fashion and are all sinners. Recognizing commonalities. Although we dress shiny at church many may be paddling upstream. Leaders should not fear exhibiting vulnerability.21:30 We seem to be good about ministering when there’s a health or economic issue, but these other areas are more challenging and require some different skills.23:50 Many who were surveyed or interviewed expressed gratitude that someone was trying to understand them. Leaders/parents may not have the perfect answers but can listen with empathy.25:25 People reflect to some degree the era in which they are raised. They may have experienced things differently as to how they view authority, education, minority issues, mental illness, gender, nationality, and sexual orientation. Genuinely listen to avoid succumbing to blind spots.27:55 Societal changes, including the internet, have had an effect. Try to understand. Not all they read on the internet is inaccurate. Many younger people are concerned about financial institutions, school debt, etc. Many don’t see issues as black and white. They’ve been exposed to non-traditional families and non-traditional gender roles. Avoid being overly simplistic in our approach to helping someone.34:40 Focus on a “pastoral” role as a leader, not simply getting the person back to church. Pray for insight, treating people as individuals and not simply seeking “just the right scripture” to share.37:40 Crucial conversations. Genuine empathy builds trust. Fear keeps us from listening or leads to the “Us” vs. “them” approach. As a leader, you may say the wrong thing, but is your heart in the right place?40:35 Dealing with these issues as parents. Don’t let fear pervade our thinking. Doing the right things vs. doing things right. Strive to make gospel study home-centered and church-supported.45:00 “Gospel Topic” essays. Missionaries need to have read those and not be caught off-guard. “Come Follow Me” should allow us to delve into important topics on the home front.49:20 Story of “Amanda,” who no longer comes to church and feels her mother is no longer proud of her.

Blake Dalton is a full-time teacher from West Valley City, Utah. He served a full-time mission in Eugene, Oregon. He has served as an elder’s quorum president, a high councilman, executive secretary, and currently serves as the bishop of his ward.Also be sure to listen to Blake's How I Lead interview.Enter Brigham…

In this podcast, Kurt and his wife, Alanna, talk with Melanie Meszaros, Celeste Jensen, and Michelle Miner from the team hosting the upcoming The Heart of a Woman retreat.Melanie was raised in Ogden Utah, the youngest of six children. She attended Brigham Young University, earned a Master’s Degree in Education, and served in the Vienna, Austria mission. She and her husband have four children and eight grandchildren. Melanie has served in Primary, Young Women’s, and Relief Society presidencies, as Stake Relief Society President, and as a Bishop’s wife.Celeste is Melanie’s daughter and lives in Hooper, Utah. She has served many years in the Young Women’s program and now serves in Primary.Michelle was born and raised in Southern California, the youngest of four. She has served in Young Women's, Relief Society, as a Gospel Doctrine teacher, and a Bishop’s wife. She has eight children and five grandchildren.The next The Heart of a Woman Retreat will be February 20-22, at Big Canyon Ranch, a Christian youth camp in Wanship, Utah (between Coalville and Park City). Everything is comfortable, prepared, and cared for, and participants will have the area to themselves for activities, learning, and reflection. Retreat Details & Registration Highlights 5:35 About The Heart of a Woman Retreat: an opportunity to have your heart fed, connect with Heavenly Father, restore your vision of who you were created to be, and refresh your soul in the beauty of God’s creations. It is an introspective focus and learning opportunity. As women, we spend so much time focusing on loving God and loving our neighbor, and we forget to love ourselves.9:45 The state of the heart of a woman in our culture is exhaustion and shame. We are checklist-oriented and are hustling to earn love from God. When we see the flaws and imperfections in each other, we can help each other on this journey. The retreat can serve as a model for Relief Society leaders to follow.16:45 Michelle’s story: broken after a divorce, felt abandoned, unworthy, unloved. She knew that God could forgive her husband’s betrayal, but didn’t believe He could heal her heart as well. She did not want to feel and was navigating through her life with her intellect because she did not want to feel rejection again. She was able to lean on others and borrow from them and was able to open her heart to believing again that God loved her.23:45 Melanie was “religid”: A perfectionist following the letter of the law with precision and not seeing the spaces in-between that Heavenly Father sees. She has been able to transition and become about the relationships.25:20 Perfectionism’s message was that if you obey with exactness, then things work out, but Celeste discovered that things don’t happen that way. She felt that God was disappointed in her and blessings were being withheld because she wasn’t being good enough. Through the retreat, she learned that she doesn’t have to hustle for God’s love, that she was blinded to the messages God was trying to give her, and that she can turn to him. She is now motivated by his love and accepting of herself instead of coming at life with a checklist mentality.33:10 Melanie’s introduction to the retreat: she asked God what he felt about her, what he saw in her, and how to hear that. She was able to feel his love, joy, delight, and trust in her, and learn how the Spirit communicates with her. Over time, she has been able to see the gift of this understanding unfolding over time.40:10 God wants whole women, and when women can give him some space to work in their lives, to believe him, it starts to heal the broken places. She can show up in her callings differently and become what he intends for her.42:30 Step back from the front lines, renew yourself, throw out the checklist, and focus on your relationship with Heavenly Father. Women—especially leaders—seek validation.46:15 Alanna’s realization that she avoided connection w...

Anthony Sweat is a “regular Latter-day Saint” who is trying to do his best. He is a Church Education System educator for his career, has a PhD in Religious Theory, and is a professor of Church History and Doctrine at Brigham Young University. He is also a writer and speaker. His Bachelors degree is in fine arts and he is a painter as well.Anthony's latest book is “Seekers Wanted”. This is not a book to tell people what to think or to provide answers, but rather “how” to think, how to approach history, concepts and doctrine. The purpose of the book is to help people learn skills to answer questions. “We should seek learning by study, but we need to not overlook seeking learning by faith”. The focus of this podcast is related specifically to ambiguity. Highlights 10:30 Embracing Ambiguity: the Lord can make things very clear. “Joseph Smith was given a one-point plan and received little by little”. God didn’t lay everything out for him; we are continuing to develop. He was required to “move forward with faith” and receive little by little as the restoration happened.15:20 How can we be the “one true church” but still have ambiguity? The Church is “true” is more likely the Church is “authorized” for things that it does; it doesn’t mean perfection. Section 1 of the D&C states it is a “true church” but at that time still no temple endowments, no Relief Society, etc. We need to recognize that the Church has authority to receive guidance from God, but we don’t have anything figured out. True does not mean complete. True means it has the authorized keys to operate. We do have some answers that other churches may not, and vice versa. We have truths of salvation and exaltation. We have revealed answers about the purpose of life, eternal families, etc. We don’t have ALL the answers. There is a difference between fullness of the gospel, vs the fullness of truth. We do have the fullness of the gospel, but not all the truth.21:35 Do we need to have a string of declarations of truth to have a testimony or is there room for ambiguity? “I am uncertain about certain things, but I trust Jesus”. It can be just as powerful and meaningful to hear “I trust this” versus “I know this without a doubt”. It is less about being certain but more about the trust that comes in a relationship with God. We may not be certain about everything but can be certain about some things: that God loves us, that Jesus is his son. This can allow us to be certain about this trust relationship.24:00 Definition of dogma. We should beware of it. Implies we are overly declarative of things that might have other possibilities. Means we are unwilling to consider alternatives. It is not a friend of faith or growth.28:35 How do we begin to become comfortable with ambiguity? Recognize it is there. "Be firm on the knowns and what God has revealed but be flexible on the unknowns."Avoid "overclaiming"; we shouldn't be overly declarative on what we know.34:35 Be comfortable saying “I don’t know”. If there are things we don't know, it doesn't mean we should avoid those things. We need to seek.36:55 As I leader, I feel the need to be seen as knowing all the answers. We shouldn't say things or claim things we shouldn't. We need to be humble and that it's okay to say "I don't know".39:40 What is the grounding of my faith? Identifying non-negotiables. There are things we know and we need to identify them. Examples: Jesus ministered to people in the Book of Mormon. Joseph translated the Book of Mormon.Is there a failproof way to guard against false non-negotiables? "If this doesn't hold true does that mean the faith collapses?" One false non-negotiable: a prophet can't be wrong; history and scripture show that prophets can make mistakes46:15 We need to determine what our own non-negotiables are and assure that they are true and not false. That will help us know what our faith is anchored in.

In this podcast, Kurt interviews two women with the unofficial leadership calling of Bishop’s Wife. Sister Jordan Brown First he speaks with Jordan Brown, who lives in Spanish Fork, Utah, where her husband has been the bishop of their ward for two years.Highlights 4:25 The circumstances surrounding her husband Brian’s calling as Bishop 9:45 The makeup of their ward 11:35 Leadership Principles: Communication as a couple: it first stopped being as intimate until they decided to focus on talking about his feelings so that he could process them better and she could support him without knowing the causes of those feelings 20:20 Look for the kind eyes: so many people are watching and it’s easy to personalize comments because you are now the bishop’s family, and this can become very negative inside your head. But when you look for the kind, positive eyes instead of the critical, judgemental eyes, you will find them. 25:35 Let yourself serve as the Bishop’s Wife: ask in your prayers to find the opportunities to serve others 27:55 Being the bishop’s wife has given her many opportunities to be intentional about keeping her covenants 31:45 Kid hack: “Sunday Centers” set up four rotationg, 15- to 30-minute stations for quiet activities such as reading, talk with Mom, work on Faith in God, making something with legos, and making a treat 34:55 Living her covenants has become more intentional and less like going through the motions, bringing her closer to Christ Sister Amanda Fristrom Amanda Fristrom and her family live in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, where her husband has been bishop for one year.Highlights 37:00 Her background and how her family ended up in Dubai, UAE 39:00 Life in Dubai 39:55 Being a member of the Church in Dubai: every ward is diverse, dynamic, and inclusive 41:55 The circumstances surrounding her husband’s calling as bishop 43:00 Give yourself time to transition into the position of bishop’s wife: identifying as “the wife of” 44:40 UVU professor Susan Madsen’s article about how women need to be kind to themselves and do what they want to do where they are 47:50 The Sabbath is the day she most has to deal with the position of “the wife of”, and looking to feel love for others gets her out of a negative mindset and into a service mindset 49:25 If the bishop is the shepherd, the bishop’s wife is the first follower 51:00 Bring the Spirit back into a conversation by bearing testimony of the Savior 53:20 Debriefing the former bishop’s wife (and others): listen to their advice 54:15 You can help develop a vision with your husband and others, and help support him and the ward 56:05 Singling out the one: pray about individuals and get creative at finding opportunities to serve them, even when you don’t know why 58:00 Setting an example for the ward 59:35 Working through depression and anxiety and the accompanying loss of the Spirit: stay the course 1:01:50 Use everyone in the ward: Asking others to serve you is a powerful way for them to be able to serve you, as well as for you to be served, and the blessings are reciprocal 1:05:30 The Lord has entrusted you with a lot, but He never intended for you to do it yourself 1:07:00 Getting to know the Savior has led to a greater understanding that all pain and difficulties are encompassed in the Atonement, and this has been a growth opportunity for their entire family Links How I Lead as the Bishop’s Wife | An Interview with Alanna Francom How I Lead as the Bishop’s Wife | Interviews with Jill Walker and Kasandra Merrill

Matthew Dicks is an author, columnist, teacher, storyteller, podcaster, blogger, playwright, and more. He is the co-founder and creative director of Speak Up, a storytelling organization that produces shows throughout New England as well as a weekly podcast, and the author of Storyworthy. Matthew is a 40-time Moth StorySLAM champion and 6-time GrandSLAM champion and has told stories for a wide range of events, radio shows, and performance venues. He lives in Connecticut with his wife, Elysha, and their two children.Highlights 7:26: With his wife runs an organization called “Speak Up” which puts on storytelling events 8:13: The science of telling a good story, i.e., public speaking in an engaging way 10:15: Basic storytelling principles:Know what a story is: a moment in your life that is transformational and reflects change over time, as opposed to a simple retelling of chronological events. Ask yourself: Am I speaking about a moment in my life that changed me in some way? You can’t really change your audience with a story unless that story changed you. Share something of yourself, that makes you authentic and vulnerable. Being vulnerable to others also makes you safe to others, and they will be more willing to be vulnerable with you. Set out to have your listeners feel like they connected with you in the end. Showing emotion is acceptable so long as you can speak your truth in a clear way.21:10: Teaching from scripture versus sharing of yourselfIt is hard for people to care about the scriptural content or lesson unless they can see a relatable example of application from a person they trust.24:26: Using our own stories versus using “borrowed” stories, e.g., using a story given in General Conference in a sacrament meeting talk.Telling your own story is the best way to be authentic.26:50: Improving our storytelling:“Homework for life”: Before going to bed, ask yourself “what’s the most story-worthy moment of today?” Write it down. Explore why and how the experience changed you. Matt has noticed that he has changed every day of his life, as documented in his “Homework for life” spreadsheet. Frame of the story is most important: what is the end, and what is the beginning? Must have some entertainment value. Jump right into the story. Stay within the story. Remember the story without memorizing--rehearse! Tell the story in “scenes”. How to tell a story “on the spot”: what does something mean to me? Listeners should know how you are different at the end of the story from the beginning. Asking “why?” five times about your storyworthy moments. I.e.: Today I was changed by X experience. Why did X experience change me? Why A? Because B. But, why B? Because C. Why C? Because D. Etc.55:21: Storytime! 65:49: Reviewing and deconstructing the story 72:25: How storytelling has helped him become a better personLinks matthewdicks.com Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life through the Power of Storytelling TED Talk: Homework for Life Speak Up Storytelling YouTube stories Art of Manliness podcast episode

Wendy Ulrich is a psychologist, educator, and writer. She holds a PhD in education and psychology from the University of Michigan and an MBA from the University of California, Los Angeles. A former guest on the podcast, Wendy is the founder of Sixteen Stones Center for Growth, has been a practicing psychologist for over 25 years, a former president of the Association of Mormon Counselors and Psychotherapists, and a visiting professor at Brigham Young University. She and her husband Dave Ulrich presided over the Canada Montreal Mission and also co-authored the Wall Street Journal #1 business bestseller, The Why of Work: How Great Leaders Build Abundant Organizations that Win. Her most recent book is Live up to Our Privileges: Women, Power, and Priesthood. Wendy and Dave have three children and eight grandchildren. Highlights 00:48 - Wendy’s background - psychologist 01:21 - Her new book discusses “What does it really mean for women to have priesthood power”? How do we get it in our lives and use it effectively? 03:49 - How can leaders better understand the experience of women in the Church? What can Wendy share about the female experience of feeling dismissed at church? 04:47 - The work of women is often invisible and misunderstood. 05:05 - Women and men have different styles of communication. Women may find being talked over (a male communication pattern) to be dismissive. 06:21 - Women can feel dismissed by the structure of the Church or even the text of the scriptures 07:02 - The book is structured after the organization of priesthood offices. Why? 07:44 - The work of women is also captured in the work of priesthood offices. 08:39 - In many cases women do more of the work of priesthood offices during the natural course of their lives than men. 09:12 - Christ was not a priest. He did not hold the priesthood of his day. 09:50 - Women who may not see themselves as holding priesthood may find something to learn from the Savior’s example and authority. 10:39 - Women can say I am doing what I’m doing because of the authority I’ve been given in my calling, my temple endowment, my home, my assignments … I have been given authority. 11:17 - We sometimes project secular perspectives on women and the priesthood and fairness. What can we understand about this topic? 12:49 - We are not going to be the same or have the same opportunities. 13:33 - Wendy believes Church doctrine emphasizes the reason we are here on this earth is to become empowered with the power that God has. We believe the most important thing God is trying to do is to create eternal relationships. 14:45 - What women do and goes unseen may be just as important as what men do in the eternal scheme of things. Even in secular society family is essential, and women are the key “resource” for keeping society functioning 17:17 - The Lord’s priority is raising the next generation of gods. 17:20 - We think God is someone who gives power away. We believe he wants to empower us to be joint heirs—to give us all He has. 18:59 - At times it does seem like some roles are inflated. Kurt shares his experience while all three of his brothers were serving as bishops and the difference in attention his sister received, who was serving as a Primary President at the time. As we consider this, women will have less of that experience of being dismissed. 20:40 - Chapter 8: Governing with Power and Compassion. How to rise to power in organizations. 22:00 - Kachner’s research shows how people get into power, but once they get into power people actually lose the skills that got them there. They become more self-serving, less empathic. They are less likely to listen to others, less able to read other’s emotional states. 23:40 - Research shows teams with women are more effective because women naturally have skills that leaders need, but they lose those skills once in power just as men do. 24:15 - This relates to D&C 121, when we get a little power or authority,

We are instructed in the General Handbook (8.1.1) that "Members of the elders quorum work together to help accomplish the work of salvation and exaltation. They serve others, fulfill priesthood duties, build unity, and learn and live doctrine." How effective is your quorum at succeeding in this purpose? Is the more that can be done to leverage the inspired quorum structure that has been restored in these latter days?The reality is, men live lives of quiet desperation even while attending elders quorum once a week. They attend elders quorum with the hope of brotherhood, unity, and a restoration of their heart. Every man is striving to answer one question, "do I have what it takes?" They wonder if they have what it takes to support a family, keep their job, overcome addiction, maintain their worthiness. They know the restored gospel can help them answer that question but they don't know where to find the answer.In this episode, Kurt Francom discusses some points to consider related to the heart of men and how the adversary is winning the heart of many men in ways we may not expect. There is great opportunity to build brotherhood in our quorum in order to give more purpose in the lives of those who attend.Kurt also discusses the powerful experience he and others have had by attending a Wild at Heart Boot Camp and how it can help establish an effective model for increasing elders quorum brotherhood and unity. Next Boot Camp Details & Registration SummaryThe typical elders quorum (1:40) What would you change about elders quorum? What is the purpose of a quorum? Handbook 2 - 7.1.2 (6:15)"The primary purposes of quorums are to serve others, build unity and brotherhood, and instruct members in doctrines, principles, and duties."President Kimball said, "We often do vigorous enlistment work to get members to come to church but then do not adequately watch over what they receive when they do come." A Quorum of Strangers: On the isolation of Mormon Men, by Sheldon Lawrence (11:30)"A recent article in the Atlantic points out that men, especially middle-aged white men, are increasingly dying from lives lived in isolation and addiction. I would like to believe that Mormon men somehow buck this trend. After all, aren’t we part of a tight-knit community capable of self-organizing in a moment’s notice? Just hand us a natural disaster and we’ll show up with rakes and shovels. But despite the Church’s obvious strength in organizing labor, it’s my observation that Mormon men lead surprisingly isolated and lonely lives. ""The substance of a diligent man is precious." Prov. 12:27 What is the biggest threat to men in our current day? (14:15) The hearts of men are under attack (16:25)"The devil has sought to lay a cunning plan, that he may destroy this work" Doctrine & Covenants 10:12 How the adversary works "Yea, he stirreth up [our] hearts" Doctrine & Covenants10:24 "And thus he flattereth them, and leadeth them along until he draggeth their souls down to hell; and thus he causeth them to catch themselves in [our] own snare." Doctrine & Covenants 10:26Wild at Heart Boot Camp (21:05) Principles based on the Wild at Heart bookA battle to fight An adventure to live A beauty to rescueWild at Heart Boot Camp Story Continued (27:45) Real life experiencesChris (33:10) Steve (47:40) James (from California) (53:45) James (from Utah) (59:05) Orin (1:06:25)Conclusion (1:11:25)LinksSee Boot Camp Schedule & Register (Promo Code: LeadingSaints) Unashamed Unafraid Podcast Doug Nielsen Episode Steve Shields Episode Wild at Heart Book Heart of Man Movie A Quorum of Strangers: On the isolation of Mormon men Find a Wild at Heart Book Camp in your area

Kami Smith grew up in Arizona, Kansas, Utah, and Idaho in an active Latter-day Saint home. She suffered abuse as a young child and had a troubled youth with anxiety and addiction, but found her way back with the help of loving leaders, earthly parents, and heavenly parents. Her story can help us as we lead and help troubled youth.Highlights 5:00 Abuse at a young age 12:00 Experience with therapy 16:00 Struggles as a teenager 18:40 Recognizing her abuse 21:00 Advice to leaders of rebellious teens 24:00 How to create safe places for youth to have real conversations 35:00 Shame and guilt Kami felt 37:30 More advice to leaders 42:15 Dad's prayer to know what to do- love is the answer 48:00 Love even though you don't agree with their choices 49:45 Kami's addiction 53:00 Kami's experience with Anasazi wilderness therapy 55:00 Kami's turning point Links Being the Child of a Gay Parent in Latter-day Saint Culture | An Interview with Mike Ramsey Anasazi Foundation Instagram: hey_kamismith

Kristen Coltrin has a bachelor's degree in psychology and is working on a master's degree in clinical social work. She has been working as an intern with the Idaho Suicide Prevention Hotline, and felt called to help support Church leaders after an August 19, 2018 letter asking us to be more educated about suicide. The people she worked with at the hotline were excited to do outreach with organizations, and she stepped into the role of providing knowledge about suicide to Church leaders in her area.Highlights 5:45 Letter sent requesting ward councils to review information and become more educated about suicide 6:45 There is an entire section of churchofjesuschrist.org that is about suicide 8:35 Some statistics: suicide is the tenth leading cause of death in the United States, and the second leading cause of death for ages 10-24; some reasons people in areas with higher rates are more likely to die from suicide 10:25 Use the term suicide or dying by suicide and avoid the term “commit suicide” 11:25 The crushed bone perspective on mental health 14:00 The Church’s resources and statements about suicide, debunking some of the cultural misconceptions 16:00 Why do people choose to die by suicide?A lack of feeling connected A lack of belonging Feeling like a burden17:00 Why is the Church a good place for suicide prevention? Community, belonging, finding a purpose in life, resources, commitments to bear one another’s burdens 18:00 Why would the Church be a place that makes people feel any of those three things? People might feel disconnected or feel they don’t belong within the culture, feeling of being a burden to the ward members, feeling shamed for who they are, leaders aren’t trained counselors 20:40 Risk factors for suicide: prior suicide attempt, substance abuse or diagnosable mental health disorders, access to lethal means, family history of suicide or violence, lack of social support, loss of a family member or friend (especially by suicide), desensitization to pain (military, first responders) 22:30 Some warning signs of suicide: inability to sleep or sleeping all the time, changes in weight or eating habits, neglecting school or personal appearance, chronic headaches or fatigue, suddenly more or less religious, and many more23:45 Triggering events can be anything but it’s usually a buildup of difficulties over time 25:45 Is suicide preventable? Yes! 27:15 Often when people start a new mental-health medication or otherwise begin to come out of depressing circumstances, that is when they follow-through on the suicide they have been thinking about 28:45 How do we know if someone is suicidal? Listen for the indirect verbal cues/invitations and be as direct as possible in asking them if they are considering suicide 30:55 Use the word “suicide” or “killing yourself” because it’s not just harming themselves, it’s killing themselves; contrast with cutting 32:15 Warning sign of looking for ways to prepare to take care of their family 33:30 What do you do in that moment when they answer “Yes”? Most important is to listen. 35:40 Resources to prepare in advance:Suicide prevention hotlines and crisis lines: Know your national number and any local numbers Church legal hotline: Wear out that number asking questions you might think are stupid Local counselors: develop some resource relationships in your area Utah mobile crisis line (University Neuropsychiatric Institute) 801-587-3000 Hospital emergency departments44:30 Last resort when they won’t go along with you, call for a welfare check: call the local non-emergency police number and ask for a “crisis intervention-trained officer” 47:40 Veterans hotline, The Trevor Project, Church resources for areas around the world 49:20 Prepare with a field trip to a crisis center 52:30 This is something that Heavenly Father especially wants his leaders to know Links suicide.churchofjesuschrist.org Understanding Suicide videos

Autumn Stringam is from Alberta, Canada, and now lives in Nampa, Idaho. She and her husband are the parents of five children and have two grandchildren. She grew up with a community-minded mindset, and works in mental health nutrition and at a special-needs high school. Autumn was called as a JustServe specialist when the program was beginning in her community, and took that opportunity to help grow a thriving program in the Treasure Valley area.Highlights 7:15 Autumn's call as a JustServe specialist for the area’s coordinating council 9:45 What is JustServe? A website intended as a tool to minister with others within the community, managed through the stakes and coordinating councils 11:30 Agreement to serve together and just to serve together 13:45 Anyone can post and manage sites—members and nonmembers 14:30 Stake public affairs specialist, JustServe specialist, and a committee work with the stake high council and sometimes a stake youth council to develop the program in their area 16:25 Groups and individuals can go to the app, sign up, and go serve 17:20 JustServe manuals are in the gospel library 18:00 The JustServe specialist’s responsibilities 19:05 Relief Society has taken over leading Church members within the program so the specialists can reach into the community 20:00 Every area needs to get entrepreneurial and figure out how to best use the program in their area 21:20 How Autumn applied the program through the youth program 24:25 How to keep it focused on service only: finding common ground and getting acquainted 28:35 Advertising goodness: experience with LGBT youth 33:25 How to combat the fear among others, such as schools, that this is a church-related organization 36:00 The overwhelm of “another thing”: take a step back and see how this helps fulfill every part 37:30 Take the challenge and the Lord will not fail us: Her experience with the “pick a date” program and how this is the model for our time 42:25 Overcoming obstacles with other organizations in the community: the program is funded by the Church but it isn’t owned by the Church 45:00 Have a full inventory of opportunities before you recruit volunteers 46:05 Look at zip code 83606 at JustServe.org for examples 47:10 The momentum will come 49:10 Using social media to advertise and promote service opportunities 53:20 Using the app and website 54:20 Campaigns for volunteers: “JustServe January” “JustServe Summer” 57:30 Start with one campaign, without the expectation of immediate results 59:35 Familiarize yourself with what is already happening out there; we are advertising what others are already doing, so plug in and then let them shine 1:01:15 How JustServe led to finding and adopting their daughter Links JustServe.org Instagram: justservetreasurevalley

Dr. Robert Ferrell has served as an elders quorum president, high councilor, YSA bishop, and YSA stake president, and has presented at firesides and conferences—including BYU Education Week—about connecting with young single adults. He grew up in the Bay Area of California but lives in Mountain Green, Utah, and is a periodontist working in the Ogden area. He has a bachelor's degree in psychology and a doctoral degree in dental surgery, and he and his wife are the parents of eight children. Highlights 7:30 His call as a YSA stake president came while serving as a bishop, forming a new YSA stake 11:00 He saw a need for a greater understanding of young adults today, and decided to present at BYU Education Week as an advocate for young adults 13:10 Stigmas of the Millennial generation in and outside of the Church 14:20 The Gospel of Jesus Christ does not lose people; the culture, tradition, false doctrine, and application loses people 15:20 Creating a young adult program needs to start with a strong organizational structure 16:00 Most wards are not aware of the problem with the activity rate among YSAs 17:10 Priesthood keys and leadership have to be behind the leaders in a YSA program 21:10 It can be easy to lose track of YSAs, and family wards need to work with YSA programs to focus on rescuing—most effective when the stake presidents work together with YSA leaders 25:00 Worked with his area seventy and coordinating councils and were able to see great success with the programMultiple ward mission leaders were assigned to the stakes that funneled YSAs to their YSA ward, and senior adult couples assigned to be the bridge between the YSA ward and the home stake Returned missionaries are prepared to help rescue other YSAs27:25 Wanted as many of the less-active records as they could, so they could organize and reach out to rescue themFocused on organizational structure with leaders working together Ministering happened among the active members, YSA ward mission leaders handled the rest31:10 The organizational process has to be there to help young adults come unto Christ 31:50 #1 cultural concept that must change: YSA wards are not about marriage, they don’t need to be reminded, and that message turns them away 34:00 The purpose of the young single adult program is helping them connect with Jesus Christ 36:40 YSA programs are not glorified YMYW programs, and activities need to be planned by the YSAs and be focused on things that help connect them to Christ 40:15 Leadership by collaboration instead of control: turn it over to themThe Lord used young adults to restore the Church; they can be trusted with the YSA program45:10 Example of giving autonomy: Stake YSA Relief Society presidency recognized a pornography problem with the sisters and taught about it at ward conferences 47:10 Encouraged the sisters to turn to their Relief Society president when they have a problem, and take it to the bishop when they are ready to repent 49:30 Counsel given to him as the stake president was that you cannot rescue YSAs and then throw the book at themIs that approach too soft? Story of missionary who returned after less than a week in the MTC, due to sexual transgression1:00:30 The sins are a symptom of a more serious doctrinal problem and the purpose of discipline is to save the soul of the transgressor, not to punish 1:04:00 Bishops and counselors need to be working on the same level so they can develop relationships with the YSA ward members 1:05:00 Behavior vs. doctrine: sin is the consequence of Satan’s real purpose 1:08:00 Leaders need to help them resolve contention in their lives 1:10:45 Not knowing the meaning of worthiness is the greatest cause of contention 1:16:00 Example of young woman who asked, “Where do I find joy?” 1:18:35 Doctrine & Covenants 10: contention, worthiness, and false doctrine 1:20:30 Doctrine is not black and white but progressional in nature...

Trena Anderson and the DFCU Foundation 3:10 Deseret First Credit Union started in 1955 by a Church employee to serve his fellow employees 4:30 Formation of the credit union’s charitable organization, the DFCU Foundation 6:00 The foundation takes referrals for missionaries to help 7:10 Story of refugee twins in Buffalo, New York, who joined the Church and eventually decided to serve missions (video clips of stories available on the website) 9:10 The foundation helps outfit missionaries as they prepare to serve, whereas the Church's general mission fund helps with the monthly stipend 10:50 Donors can also help specific missionaries 11:40 Upcoming annual golf tournament at Stonebridge Golf Course in Salt Lake City, July 30th 13:20 Go to dfcu.com/foundation/ for more information, to make a donation, or to register for the golf tournament Barry Rellaford Barry Rellaford is a globally sought-after leadership development expert with over 30 years of experience as a coach, facilitator and leader in multiple organizations. He teaches in the Business department at Brigham Young University, and previously worked with Stephen M. R. Covey in developing FranklinCovey's “Leading at the SPEED of TRUST” program. He has a Master’s degree in Labor and Human Resources from Ohio State University and a Bachelor’s degree in Organizational Communication from BYU’s Marriott School of Management. Barry is the bishop of a young single adults ward in Provo, Utah. He and his wife, Lorilee, are the parents of six children. Highlights 00:30 Grew up in Paradise, California, which burned in the 2018 Camp Fire, California’s deadliest, most destructive wildfire 17:10 Joined the Church while in high school 18:20 Kept a journal of his thoughts and experiences from that time 19:30 Served a mission to France 20:25 Developed a career in the leadership development field, seeking to help individuals grow, and desired to be a teacher 23:00 Transitioned his desire to teach into being a leadership coach, and ended up with FranklinCovey 24:35 Currently serving at a Young Single Adult ward in Provo, Utah 25:15 His experience with the Camp Fire 26:15 Sought to help the residents of Paradise with a service project focused on travel trailers and RVs for temporary housing, along with other donations 28:30 Told his story on Facebook and the project took off 30:45 We are hard-wired for story 32:30 Housing quickly became a serious problem with the displaced residents from the fire 35:00 Our church leaders are telling a positive story of faith, despite the negative stories we see all around us in the world 41:40 The Church in northern California has been involved with many organizations in the disaster recovery efforts 42:30 If we are faithful and strive to be obedient, the promise is there 46:10 Taking the first trailers to California 48:30 Returning to Paradise this spring was more positive 51:20 Our purpose as people has been revealed, both in general and specifically for each of us 51:50 GPS: We have gifts, passions, and situationsThe Strength of Ten: Talents, time, and treasure, energy and experience, a network and know-how42:15 Overwhelmed when first called as a YSA bishop 57:00 In our leadership callings, we need to discern why the Lord has called us 57:30 Being purposefully engaged in the workFigure out what your talents are Go meet your neighbors and minister to them Helping others see themselves as God sees them, and to see their future differently59:25 Faith and vision: “Live out of imagination, not memory.”—Steven R. Covey 1:00:15 Faith is a principle of action: Elder Bednar’s teaching to "go, and then you’ll know" 1:01:20 His experience choosing to go to BYU and the eventual confirmation that he made the right choice 1:04:00 Sometimes we optimize too much, getting hung up on seeking the absolute best in everything instead of simply doing something good first (“Good enough, press on”)

Kari Roppe lives in the Twin Cities area, in a lake cabin destination area in Wisconsin. She grew up in Provo, Utah, moved to Minneapolis as a young adult, and became inactive in the Church for many years. She is an elementary school teacher, the single parent of three children, and was called unexpectedly as a stake Young Women president. Highlights 6:40 Kari's experience coming back to the Church after years of inactivity 10:30 Served in Primary, Relief Society, and as gospel doctrine teacher before being called to the ward Young Women presidency 11:30 YW camp testimony meeting with stake presidency attending 13:00 Stake Young Women president calling 14:00 Called even though she was a single, working parent of teenagers 15:15 Choosing her counselors—including her own sister Leadership principles17:45 Surround yourself with people who know more than you19:30 The Lord calls presidencies, not individuals 20:30 Formal meetings didn’t work for her, but they communicated well22:25 Be willing to go offroading a bit23:00 Using Dr. Seuss as a theme for young women26:00 Make sure that you don’t check your sense of humor at the door26:30 Twilight-themed skit at YW camp helped them be more approachable28:35 Always have the needs of those you serve first and foremost30:00 Her stake president gave them freedom but one directive to always provide three things for the youth:Service 32:35 Fun 33:50 A spiritual experience36:30 Mourning “my girls” after serving 38:40 We love those we serve and begin to feel the love the Lord has for his children

James Quigley is a retired CEO of Deloitte, the world’s largest professional services company. He currently serves as chairman of the board of directors at Hess Corporation, and on the board of directors for Wells Fargo, Merrimack Pharmaceutical, and Chatbooks. He also has a passion for leadership in education and is working to support the leadership development of school principals through Deloitte University. Jim served as a bishop while working as CEO of Deloitte. He and his wife Bonnie have three children and many grandchildren. Highlights 4:15 His father’s experience singing with the Tabernacle Choir 5:40 Growing up in a small town and learning leadership as a football quarterback 7:10 Schooling and how it led to leading an international company 9:35 Learned a great deal about leadership through his church callings and mentorship with church leaders 12:00 The principle of “the one”: Success is connecting to the individual 12:45 Make moments matter in both one-on-one interaction and group interactions that result in the listener having a one-on-one experience 14:00 Connecting with the person in front of him is always his priority 15:15 Everyone cannot come to you for direction every day. Establish the organization’s culture and both allow and expect others to direct themselves. 16:40 Tell those you lead what you expect of them in the culture of the organization, explaining the values using simple stories to explain the how and why 21:50 Helping people look at their commitment as more than a job, and teaching them the organizational culture 25:20 His experience being called to serve as a bishop while working as a CEO 26:25 Assemble a capable team, then do the things you cannot delegate and delegate the rest 27:40 He focused on what the ward wanted to accomplish, then set goals as a leadership team 28:50 The importance of knowing how to run an effective meeting as a bishop: “The Spirit leaves when the allotted time has expired” 29:45 Rely on the executive secretary to prepare the meeting agenda 31:40 His spouse is a relationship partner who was an important part of his team, and the bishop’s wife influences the tone of what happens in the ward 34:00 Advice for newly-called bishops: encourage self-reliance in individuals 34:50 A bishop’s job is to help make the Atonement real in the lives of the individual members of the ward. Everything else can be delegated. 36:45 Transitioning away from a major role: don’t get overly-invested in the title, but come to it with a sense of urgency and know that at some point you will be leaving it behind 37:50 Make sure people want to do the job they are being asked to do so that they can come in with enthusiasm and be a team player 39:20 What he is doing post-retirement: Deloitte’s Courageous Principals Program for leadership development of school principals 43:00 Look to Christ as the ultimate leader and personalize what he would do in individual interactions Links The Mormon Way of Doing Business, by Jeff Benedict

Tad R. Callister was recently released as Sunday School general president. He previously served in the Presidency of the Seventy, as a member of the Second Quorum of the Seventy, an Area Seventy, president of the Canada Toronto East mission, regional representative, stake president, bishop, and as a full-time missionary in the Eastern Atlantic States Mission. Brother Callister holds an accounting degree from BYU, a Juris Doctorate degree from UCLA, and a master’s degree in tax law from NYU Law School. He is the grandson of apostle LeGrand Richards, the author of four books including The Infinite Atonement and most recently A Case for the Book of Mormon. He and his wife Kathryn Louise Saporiti are the parents of six children. Highlights 2:30 Moving on from being released as General Sunday School president 4:20 Which came first, the book or the talk? 5:15 How his law practice helped him crystallize thoughts when writing 5:50 His approach to personal study 6:10 Lesson to seek and ponder his own insight first before turning to doctrinal commentary 8:00 Studying first thing in the morning, and writing along with reading has helped him summarize his thoughts while studying the scriptures 8:50 Questioning and discussing with others is part of pondering 10:00 Reason can strengthen faith, and logic and the Spirit can go hand-in-hand 11:40 The audience for the book is first people who have testimonies that can be strengthened and who can help strengthen the testimonies of others, as well as those who may have questions, and finally critics 12:40 A partial truth, when presented as a whole truth, is an untruth 13:00 Less than 2% of the archeological finds in ancient America have been unearthed 16:00 An intellectual witness of scripture does not come from archeological findings, whether regarding the Bible or the Book of Mormon 16:40 His grandfather LeGrand Richards was a common-man leader, related to everyone, and simply loved people 19:15 Ward Sunday School presidents are not merely bell-ringers because they are in charge of the teacher councils, and they have the responsibility to help improve the teaching of every teacher in every organization, and to see that the individual and family curriculum is being implemented in every home 21:50 One purpose of the Come Follow Me curriculum is to take us from reading the scriptures to pondering the scriptures and discussing them. In the homes, it is the catalyst for discussion and learning the gospel together. 23:30 There has been a substantial increase in individual and family study, and class members from children to adults are better prepared for Sunday meetings 24:10 He and his counselors traveled internationally and were able to get a good idea of what was happening with teacher council meetings 25:10 Practising through role play at the end of teacher council meetings was one thing they observed and recognized as an effective implementation in those meetings 25:45 Another effective implementation is the change to Christ-centered Easter Sunday and Christmas services so that members can invite others to come worship with them 27:30 Surprised at his call as the General Sunday School president 28:20 They were given a lot of latitude but there was a clear expectation to improve teaching in the home and at church 30:20 Traveling and visiting as a Sunday School general auxiliary president was to teach in general how to teach more like the Savior, to help teachers make teacher counsels more effective, and to discuss in focus groups what was working or not working in areas around the world 31:40 In the presidency of a Quorum of Seventy, they were given responsibility for a specific area, and were to train area seventies, and serve on committees for a variety of topics 33:30 Hoping that his book can help strengthen the testimonies of readers 34:00 His leadership callings have helped him be more humble and recognize the value of other people’s ideas and the input of his co...

We are excited to team up with Cumorah Tours to organize an epic church history tour that will happen in September of 2019.Listen to the attached interview to hear further details.There are only 48 seats available on this tour bus and they are going fast so check out all the full itinerary and reserve your seat on the bus today!SEE FULL TOUR DETAILS

Bruce and Marie Hafen are most recently the authors of the book "Faith is Not Blind", in which they "acknowledge complicated gospel issues, yet clearly and gently guide readers through the steps necessary to work through complexity, develop informed testimonies, and become filled with the faith that comes from knowing God." Bruce has served as president of Rick's College, dean of the J. Reuben Clark Law School and provost at Brigham Young University, president of the St. George Temple, and in the First Quorum of the Seventy. He is also the author of several books. Marie has served alongside and co-authored books with Bruce. She also taught religion, literature and writing at both BYU-Idaho and BYU in Provo, and served on the Young Women General Board and the Board of Directors for the Deseret News.In this interview, the Hafens share experiences helping young people deal with uncertainty, doubt, and trial as they struggle to reconcile the simple faith of youth with the complex realities of adulthood. Learn how you can apply their experience to your own ministry and learn to develop the kind of relationship with young adults that allows you aid their progress between simplicity, through complexity, and on to simplicity coupled with understanding. The journey need not surprise or lead anyone away from the gospel. It can bring us all, like Adam and Eve, back to an understanding of and into a closer relationship and reconciliation with God. Highlights 0:26 - Bruce’s background: President of Rick’s College, Dean of BYU Law School, called as a general authority in 1996, President of the St George Temple 1:08 - Marie’s background: native of Bountiful, Utah; was a BYU student when she met Bruce; lots of experience with college-age students; interested in helping others reach out to that age group 2:15 - Our Religious Questions course - talking about gospel questions with friends and peers normalized these discussions 3:55 - Elder Hafen gave a devotional, “Dealing with Uncertainty”, at BYU in 1978 that is an early work on questions that may disconcert this demographic 5:24 - Did individuals ask the same questions then as they do now? 5:57 - Dealing with complexity and ambiguity - college students were very idealistic, and they found generalized discussion helped students deal with practical reality; how do adults deal with the gap between our idealized expectations and the reality of our daily lives? 8:49 - We should expect all adults to experience this; how can we help people not be shocked by the bigger, broader world and learn it is nothing to fear 9:25 - Some people are so idealistic that they remain shocked by these discoveries; another group switch over to embracing reality so single-mindedly they have no interest in idealistic visions and reject religion quickly 10:42 - Ideas contained in their book, "Faith is Not Blind" - How should we view complexity and simplicity? 12:12 - Untested simplicity is not to be desired 13:34 - It may not be just doubts or questions that create complexity, but could be health or many other life experiences 13:51 - Anecdote about a female inmate who came to understand her simple testimony in a different way because of her life’s experiences; complexity informed the simplicity - she came to understand that earlier testimony 15:52 - Anecdote about Holly who struggled with the topic of women and the priesthood, and left the Church 19:10 - It wasn’t a regression, but turning to simplicity offered peace 19:21 - Adam and Eve gained maturity through their fall and subsequent experiences 22:10 - How might leaders respond when members encounter complexity? 23:16 - A typical problem is when a struggling member goes to a leader who is wedded to a black and white perspective that they get the message the leader does not understand them 24:28 - Anecdote about Australian young women dealing with abuse - listen first 25:22 - Recurring theme is when a leader is dismissive or offers an overl...

Josh Packard, his wife Heidi, and his parents Cindy and Blair Packard join Kurt to discuss Josh’s faith transition away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the lessons learned from the entire family about maintaining love in the family while respecting decisions.Josh was raised in a traditional Latter-day Saint home, serving a mission, marrying Heidi in the temple, and attending medical school. While in medical school, Josh encountered areas that caused him to question his faith, ultimately leading years later with him deciding to resign his membership. Cindy and Blair, then serving as mission presidents when they learned about Josh’s decision to leave the faith, struggled (along with the rest of their family) with how to engage with Josh and Heidi regarding not just Josh’s faith status, but the impact to their family. Through learning from their mistakes, the Packard family came out even stronger by learning how to love unconditionally, engage in thoughtful and respectful discussions, and understand the other’s perspective in this difficult faith transition.Transcript Kurt Francom (LS): Today, I have the opportunity through the powers of the internet to connect with two couples who know each other well. Blair and Cindy Packard in - I'll get this right this time - Gilbert Arizona. Is that right guys?Blair: Actually it's wrong. Now we're in Mesa right now.LS: Now you're in Mesa, okay.Blair: From Gilbert. We're in my Mesa office.LS: Very good. Nice. Then your son Josh and his wife Heidi, who are in Georgia. Am I right, Josh?Josh: Right. Columbus, Georgia.LS: Nice. Cool. Obviously, Josh was raised by this great couple, the Packards. We're going to talk about an important subject as far as the dynamic of families, especially when an individual member or members of family take a different faith journey, that many times may lead people outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.I guess this started...It was interesting. I went to Mesa area and then had opportunity to visit with the Packards in Gilbert. But the night before I visited them, I had somebody that's in the audience of Leading Saints, and they said to me, "You know what we need is an interview that talks about the dynamics of when a son or daughter leaves the church and how that impacts the family." And I said, "Wow, that sounds like a great story, but I don't even know who I would talk to about that but I'll try and find somebody." Then the next day, I met Cindy and Blair, and they said, "That that's our situation. Let's talk about it."So let's maybe put the story into context here. Cindy, you want to start maybe where this all began? The day you held little Josh in your arms...No, I'm just kidding. I mean, wherever you want to start.Cindy: Well, I think speaking for all of us, we'd like to say we're very grateful for the opportunity to do this. After we kind of made our way through this journey, we thought it'd really be helpful if we could find a way to share this with people. So we're happy for the opportunity.It's also a bear journey, where we want to share this personal journey - and it hasn't been easy. We hope that we can help other people who are going through this in some way. We did some things wrong; we did some things right. And as we share our journey, hopefully, other people will be able to learn something and maybe have a little less pain or a little more hope, where they're at. We don't want to preach to anybody, and we recognize that everybody's situation is unique and different. So this may not work for some people, but it may be something that's helpful.When we talked about the best way to approach this because we have a lot of ideas to share, we thought maybe just going kind of incremental logical order would be a good way to do that. So you can take it however you want with that.For me, a kind of a pivotal point was realizing that I was experiencing ...

We are excited to announce the Questioning Saints Virtual Summit. An online conference dedicated to helping Latter-day Saints validate and love those who begin to question their faith. We have some remarkable presenters including:Anthony Sweat, BYU Professor Adam Miller, Professor at Collin College in McKinney, Texas, Author of Letters to a Young Mormon David Ostler, Former Mission president and author David Snell, Co-host of Saints Unscripted Elder & Sister Hafen, Authors of Faith is Not Blind Jana Riess, Author of The Next Mormons John Hilton, BYU Professor Kurt Francom, Executive Director of Leading Saints Michael Goodman, BYU Professor Packard Family (Blair, Cindy, Josh, Heidi) Ryan Gottfredson, Professor at California State University - Fullerton Spencer Fluhman, Executive Director of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship Yohan Delton, BYU-I ProfessorREGISTER TODAY - Conference starts April 16

Born and raised in Utah, Becky Hennessy has been in the mental health field since 2003 and a therapist since 2007, licensed in Utah. Prior to launching her private practice, she worked for the Division of Child and Family Services in Child Protection and Family Preservation. She also worked in private practices and in foster care. For LDS Family Services she was a therapist member of a Child Trauma Team and ran a therapeutic group for adult women who were molested as children. She serves on the board of therapist advisers for Leading Saints. Married since 2004, Beckie and her husband have three children. Highlights 5:08 Life coaching compared to therapy. The former does not require licensing, is unregulated and does not make diagnoses. Coaches often have valuable certifications. Therapists are licensed, regulated, make diagnoses and help connect dots from past to present to future. Therapists often work with past experiences while coaches work with current struggles. 9:00 Some may find therapy too intense or stigmatized and prefer life coaching. Life coaching is a growing field involving various models. Some individuals find one model more useful than another. Lay leaders need to exercise caution in recommending one over the other. Some individuals sign up for ongoing coaching as they would for a gym membership. 15:00 Beckie’s practice involves some degree of live coaching, combined with a measure of seminar-style instruction. Therapy and life coaching are not competing approaches. A good life coach is willing to refer a client to counseling, where appropriate. 17:10 CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Training/Therapy) approach discussed. The thought precedes the feeling which precedes actions. Controlling thoughts helps manage feelings and behavior. 20:25 ACT (Acceptance Commitment Therapy/Training) model discussed. The feeling may happen—you didn’t choose it. Acknowledge feelings and their sometimes-overwhelming effect. Commit to how to respond based on your value system. Grab the wheel and steer, rather than allowing feelings to manage you. Be aware of what’s going on with the body (chest, stomach, head). 33:30 How might church leaders profit from these approaches? Exercise caution in advising, “Do such and such and you’ll feel differently,” or “Just wake up and tell yourself to feel differently.” People may visit you with a bucket of feelings and leave feeling unheard if feelings aren’t acknowledged. Don’t encourage “Fake it till you make it” or “poser” behaviors. Advising counselees to pray/read scriptures more may help them feel the Spirit without altering the deep feelings they experience. Christ is the Healer. 48:15 As leaders, learn to acknowledge your feelings about certain triggers. Don’t stifle your feelings. Remember, Christ experienced difficult emotions. Feelings don’t define us. Invest in self-awareness and self-care. Empathy (feelings) and compassion (actions) can include self-compassion. 55:40 As you become more adept using these principles in your life and home life you can help others more. A leader doesn’t have to be the expert—Christ is the expert. 57:25 Firehoses vs lawnmowers discussion. Follow Christ’s lead on empathy/compassion. Lazarus story. 1:02:20 Questions to ask: Where is it hurting the most? What is one thing I can do to help? What do you need? They may not assess their need accurately, but they need to feel heard. The “fix” may take time. LinksThe Path of Imperfection Podcast with Beckie Hennessy B.R.I.C.K.S. Family Counseling beckiehennessy.com Facebook: Beckie Hennessy, LCSW Instagram: beckie.hennessy.lcsw Interview with Jody Moore Virtual Couch Podcast

"It is not enough that something is good. Other choices are better, and still others are best." —Dallin H. Oaks Brad Barber co-hosts The Next Step Podcast, which is based around the Church's Addiction Recovery Program and addiction in general. He grew up in the Church in southern California, served a mission, and attended Brigham Young University. Brad has seen many friends caught in addiction and became involved with ARP after hearing podcast co-host Jay's testimony of the program and wondering why there weren't ARP addiction meetings in his area. Highlights 6:45 How Brad got involved with ARP and started The Next Step Podcast 12:00 Setting up the ARP program is supposed to start with the stake 12:20 A facilitator who is an addict in recovery should be leading the meetings 12:50 Leaders who have not been through the process do not know what addicts have gone through and addicts can tell 13:30 A sponsor is a person who is in sobriety from addiction 14:55 At first, addicts categorize themselves against each other until they realize everyone's struggles are the same, but anyone who has experienced addiction can facilitate for others experiencing different types of addiction 15:45 Quote from the intro of the ARP manual (in LDS Tools) about what addiction is 17:00 Some statistics about addictions that go beyond alcohol, drugs, and pornography 18:10 "Atonement Realization Program" because the 12 Steps walk you through the Atonement to improve yourself 18:40 Elder Oaks' talk, "Good, Better, Best": Have people been lifted, encouraged, and changed? 20:15 A 12-Step meeting is different than counseling, but ARP is organized under LDS Family Services 20:35 Meetings usually start from the bottom up, where a family member starts a group after discovering the program exists 21:05 The 12 Steps were invented by the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous in the 1930's 21:40 Good: There are ARP meetings in the stake, and ward leaders are aware of them 22:15 Group leaders are generally not addicts in recovery, and need to be a person who has no judgment toward others 23:50 Brad's advice to group leaders: Don't show up dressed like a missionary or pretend to be something you are not 24:45 Better: Passionate group leaders who coordinate with other group leaders 25:25 Invite leaders to go to a meeting and challenge them to not be afraid of what other people might think 27:00 Some do's and don'ts about attending a meeting:Introduce yourself by first name only Resist the urge to share your testimony29:50 Better: Have meetings with a varying mix of people at stages of sobriety to help support the participants 30:25 It's the responsibility of group leaders to find those addicts in recovery and get them to come 30:55 Bishops have a responsibility to help identify those people and connect them to ARP 32:35 It's the purpose of sponsors to follow-up and that's how to maintain sobriety 33:30 Spouses also need to understand that sobriety isn't the end 34:20 Better: Have your bishops attend ARP meetings 35:25 Treat the ARP meetings the same as self-reliance meetings and attend a full 12-week course to really understand the power of these steps 36:30 In ARP, everyone shares their experience instead of listening to an "expert" 37:00 Story: everyone can benefit from learning the 12 Steps 37:50 Better: Persons who have done the 12 Steps are now supporting others 38:05 "What gets you sober won't keep you sober" 39:50 Best: You have facilitators who have broken anonymity 41:20 Leaders should talk to addicts in recovery and find those who are willing to break anonymity and share 42:00 Fear of breaking anonymity: what happens is the opposite of the fears of judgment 42:40 Best: Have group leaders who share and encourage others to attend 44:30 Best: Spouses and others attending the general ARP meetings 44:45 If you can only have one meeting, have a general ARP meeting 46:00 Spouses attending the meetings is powerful

Jessica Johnson works in leadership development with the RBL Group. She holds an MBA from Brigham Young University and previously worked in management and marketing consulting, and in television sports. Jessica spoke about councils as part of the Leading Saints Leadership Conference in November 2018. The video of this podcast is also part of the Motivating Saints Virtual Summit.Highlights 8:30 We try to find the best people for the job, but our own biases can cause us to overlook latent leaders 10:10 Metrics for success are different in the Church 12:10 Think about the role and needs: Who are the stakeholders? Who are they serving? What are their needs? 15:15 Don't start with the people who can fill any calling, but start with the people who are less visible 16:15 Will trumps skill: look for the Amuleks along with the Almas 17:10 First seek the Spirit, but pray for discernment 18:15 Always be training new leaders 20:15 As we seek inspiration and get to know the members of the ward better, inspiration comes 20:25 Example of a bishop who had a weekly new-member meeting in his office that was a Sunday School class, including representatives of the bishopric and relevant auxiliary leadership 23:45 We often have unrecognized internal assumptions about people that we don't question: question those assumptions 25:40 There may be leaders in the ward that are not in formal leadership positions 27:10 Storytelling is how we build culture: Tell stories to spark genuine ministering 29:20 Facts and figures can be dismissed but we remember stories because we insert ourselves into them 30:45 How do we support new leaders? What does that look like? How do we train them? 31:35 Support them by doing assignments and tasks with them first 31:45 Follow-up by giving very specific positive feedback 32:35 Kurt: Sometimes we don't choose that less-than-ideal candidate for a calling because we don't know how to support them 33:45 Kurt: Hold those stewardship meetings 34:20 Not everyone knows exactly what they're supposed to do: example of newly-returned member with a Primary calling 36:00 Give them a few expectations up front so they can create habits and grow into more expectations 36:45 Knowledge about how to do things is often assumed in our culture and we all need a little help knowing how to do things 38:00 Consider assigning a mentor 39:00 "One of the most important things you can leave after you're released is people who have increased in capacity and confidence."—Elder Bednar 40:30 In a business, 20% of the time should be spent on developing people and not "administratia": flip this in a ward setting to 80% 42:20 "Feed forward" (not feedback): Look to the future and ask, "How do we make this better for the future?" then have a collaborative conversation. 44:35 SCARF model of dealing with feedback (David Rock) 45:45 You can learn a lot from those conversations that help with understanding and compassion 47:00 There will be "failure" and struggle but they will learn from it 47:40 Kurt: example of parade float and what was learned 49:00 Look outside your network to find these latent leaders: get to know people you don't know 49:30 If no one disagrees with you in a presidency meeting, that is actually a problem: conflict is healthy (not contention) 51:40 We want everyone involved: D&C 82 That every person may gain other talents Links SCARF Model

Jana Riess is a historian and editor in the publishing industry, primarily working in the areas of religion, history, popular culture, ethics, and biblical studies. From 1999 to 2008, she was the Religion Book Review Editor for Publishers Weekly, and continues to freelance reviews for Publishers Weekly as well as other publications. She holds degrees in religion from Wellesley College and Princeton Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. in American religious history from Columbia University. She grew up with no religious affiliation and became a Protestant in high school. While going to college to become a pastor, she converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Her book, "The Next Mormons: How Millennials are Changing the LDS Church", came about after starting a Kickstarter campaign to fund a survey to learn about Millennials in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.Highlights6:45 Millennials are leaving religion 7:30 Retention rate of 46%-62% and is trending downward 8:30 What is a Millennial? 10:00 What to say to those who say the Millennials will grow out of this phase? 12:30 What can the church do to retain these Millennials and solve the problem? 15:40 What part does conformity & obedience have in Millennials leaving the church? 16:40 The two main reasons Millennials leave the church 18:35 How do Millennials view the temple? 23:20 Millennials have a higher rate of ministering 25:00 Why church? 26:00 How church meetings could be better & different for Millennials 27:00 How do Millennials see church callings differently 28:30 Millennials & religious authority 32:55 Millennials & the word of wisdom 33:55 Millennials & temple recommends 37:15 Millennials & pornography 40:10 Millennials & the traditional family 44:00 Millennials and the Prophet and General Authorities 48:30 Millennials and American exceptionalism 50:10 What can Millennials bring to our church? 53:00 What's the biggest sticking point for Millennials going forward? 56:00 What can leaders do? 58:00 How has writing this book impacted Jana's discipleship of Jesus Christ?Links The Next Mormons: How Millennials are Changing the LDS Church An LDS Leader’s Guide to Millennial Mormons Transcript Kurt Francom (LS): Today I have the opportunity to sit down with Jana Riess. Jana, you are the author of "The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church". So tell us as far as your personal background and how this project and book came to be?Jana: Sure. This project basically started in 2016. I was very interested in getting solid data on what's going on generationally with Latter-Day Saints and former Latter-Day Saints. And not just anecdotally "here's what I'm seeing in my social media feed." Anecdotally, it felt like more younger people were leaving the LDS faith and for possibly different reasons than older people had left, and I wanted to know if that was really valid, and if so, more about it - everything we could.So along with the help of Benjamin Knoll, who's a political scientist, we crafted this survey, raised money on Kickstarter in order to fund the survey because it's very expensive to try to get valid information that's nationally representative about such a small minority population. Mormons are only about one and a half percent of the United States population. That's how it began.LS: Nice. What's your professional background that led you here?Jana: I'm a historian, actually. I'm not a social scientist. My PhD is in the history of religion in America. And I am able because of that to put some of these trends into historical context I think, but the social science aspect of this project has been really fascinating for me to try to learn the methodology. It's very important to have questions that are designed in a particular way - questions can influence how we answer the following question. I mean,

Rosie Card is the founder of Q.NOOR, a clothing company that creates temple, baptism, and blessing dresses, and the host of the Q.MORE podcast, discussing questions about culture and doctrine in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A former model, BYU grad, and returned missionary, Rosie is also the author of "Model Mormon", the story of her experience in the modeling industry and discovering that true happiness isn't found in looking beautiful, but in seeking to become more like the Savior. She recently returned to attending her local ward after years of experience in singles wards. Highlights5:00 Experience as a model 5:50 The story behind her book, “Model Mormon” 6:30 How and why she started Q.NOOR, creating temple dresses that help women feel comfortable in the temple 9:35 What started the Q.MORE podcast: discussing questions openly in conversations 13:55 People usually just need to know that they aren’t the only one with questions 14:20 Leaders should encourage people to turn to God for answers 17:40 Getting away from making singles wards all about dating 18:15 The sense that single adults need to get married so that they can “join the rest”, when we all actually have the same purpose to become like Christ 20:25 The unintentional message that singles wards exist to push marriage 21:25 Being comfortable with singleness 22:40 The focus on relationship discussions in singles wards needs to be balanced out 23:40 If you want to have lessons on chastity or healthy sexuality, be straightforward about it all instead of tiptoeing around the subjects 26:10 YSA activities are great, but YSA are no longer “youth” 27:10 Sometimes we treat singles like children instead of the adults they are 28:35 Single members are growing and progressing in the same ways as married members, but through different experiences 29:45 Stop it with the date boxes 30:25 Dating committees: We should be encouraging men and women to have the maturity and confidence to date, not facilitate dating for them 33:20 Ward Council that built activities around their network and skills for YSA 34:55 Unintentional disrespect for YSAs: they don’t need adult supervision, they aren’t kids, and they are no less of contributing members in the Church 38:55 Consider: a 28-year-old single adult is as capable as a 28-year-old married adult 40:20 YSAs have more time than same-age married adults-with-children and could potentially contribute even more in a calling, not less 42:10 The myth that a YSA can’t have the same opportunities to contribute or serve in leadership callings in a family ward as they would in a singles ward 45:10 Discussion of what dissolving singles wards could do for everyone 47:25 Sacrament meeting coordinator calling 49:55 Decided the topics, speakers, and order of speakers as a member of the Ward Council 51:40 Local ward bishops could use this to take those tasks off their busy plate 52:25 How she worked with the bishop in the coordinator calling 53:50 Encouragement for YSA bishops: have open and honest discussions with the people in your ward about their experiences there 56:55 Observations of the Church and the gospel from the outside have helped her have more compassion for others who might feel disenfranchised Links Q.MORE podcast Q.MORE podcast with Kurt: Thus Saith the Lord Rosie's book, Model Mormon Q.NOOR.com LDS temple, baptism, and blessing dresses @RosemaryCard on Twitter

Kurt Francom, Executive Director of Leading Saints, flies solo for this episode as he talks about some invisible habits some leaders have that self-sabotage their leadership and diminish those around them.Highlights4:40 Invitation to become more reflective and ask yourself if you are possibly doing some of these things without realizing it1. Creating a culture of unquestioned obedience to what the leader directs (6:00)This happens with the best intentions6:30 Common example: Primary President doesn't hear about changes in the Primary until it is announced in Sacrament Meeting because the Bishop is not giving them autonomy over their auxiliary9:00 From Dan Pink's book, "Drive", three things every individual looks for: autonomy, mastery (becoming proficient at what they do), purpose (my opinions matter; I'm making a difference)What to do about it:10:50 Bishops should turn callings over to the auxiliaries, and then the bishopric can facilitate and encourage auxiliary leaders13:20 Ask the Ward Council/counselors: How are decisions being made? Is this a problem?13:40 One-to-one monthly interviews with your auxiliary leaders and counselors2. A leader's lack of motivation to acquire accurate self-awareness by seeking-out alternative perspectives and general leadership training (16:15)17:00 Self-awareness about your approachability as a leaderSubconsciously sabotaging difficult conversations18:15 Story of Seminary/Institute teacher who always had the answer to questions19:10 It's not about having the right answer, but about having the conversationWhat to do about it:20:00 Ask, "How approachable am I?" and create a safe circumstance for others to come to you20:40 Seek leadership training from every source possible 21:50 Elder Bednar's leadership skills came from decades of experience as a professor and author, not simply because he is an apostle 23:30 Pick up a book23:40 Seek out other resources such as conferences, websites, therapists, Leading Saints, etc.3. Providing no venue to experience real connection (27:30)28:00 Kurt's experience at Wild at Heart Boot Camp: Men talking and connecting in ways that they don't normally experience in elders quorum30:35 "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation" (Thoreau)31:55 Never let a quorum meeting become another Sunday School class; create more connectionWhat to do about it:32:45 Create vulnerabilitySit in a circle33:35 Stimulate the group with questions34:40 Brene Brown's books about vulnerability and shame35:55 The leader needs to lead out with vulnerability37:20 Vulnerability leads to trust4. Church/family imbalance: An excessive emphasis on the importance of family responsibility that causes individuals/families to disengage with the Church (and vice versa) (38:10)39:45 Quote from "The Divine Center," by Steven R. Covey41:25 Culture shifting to putting the family first and losing the balance with church serviceWhat to do about it:42:40 Talk about this dynamic as a bishopric and as a ward43:10 Infuse your ward, Relief Society, or quorum with more purpose/vision5. Creating unintentional shame (44:00)44:40 Shame is the greatest counterfeit that the adversary uses instead of guilt45:45 Shame comes with the best intentions but creates a dynamic of unattainable perfectionism 46:30 Quote from Brené Brown, from her book "Dare to Lead"What to do about it:47:20 Shame comes when the focus is on the behavior48:00 Jane Clayson: Turn up the doctrine of grace6. Too many targets and no vision (48:40)Every leader has a different inspired focus, so we end up trying to do it all52:50 Doing it all leads to overwhelm53:05 You have to give your people one targetWhat to do about it:54:00 Have a clear objective and goal and unify around itCreate a vision statement and give people a purposeAsk the difficult questions: How can we make these into one target7. Excessive gestures of niceness,

Blair Packard is a physical therapist and Cindy is a midwife. They are from Utah but have lived in Arizona since 1976, first in Mesa and now in Gilbert. They have seven children and 25 grandchildren. Cindy learned some Portuguese after starting a nonprofit, Care for Life, based in Mozambique. This came in useful later when they served a short-term humanitarian mission to Mozambique, and then as mission president from 2006-2009. In this interview, Kurt and the Packards talk about how to address primary problems instead of secondary problems in welfare service programs, mentoring and guiding people toward comprehensive self-reliance instead of simply giving them short-term support. Summary 1:40 Church service in Mozambique4:50 Their experience in a robbery/hostage situation involving President and Sister Nelson near the end of their mission8:10 How Care for Life came to be11:00 They couldn’t just do one thing. There were so many needs, and they boiled it down to a need for knowledge and teaching.12:20 Welfare and self-reliance principles came from their serviceDocumentary: Poverty, Inc. When we think we are helping, we are more often creating dependence14:45 Preventing the primary problem instead of trying to solve secondary problems, going into the “orphan prevention business”16:50 At first they started an agriculture class, but eventually learned to mentor instead of simply teaching and walking away17:45 Specialists work with the communities in different areas, setting goals, evaluating, and mentoring over time, much like a ward welfare council20:50 Make it clear that they are only helping short-term and the community will need to support themselves after that21:25 Took time to develop the Care for Life “family preservation program” based on the needs of the people, as determined by the communityEight areas in the program: education, health, and hygiene, food security and nutrition, sanitation, income generation, home improvement, psychosocial well-being, community participation Over 15 years, they were able to reduce maternal mortality rates in the villages by 78% and infant mortality rates by 57%22:50 How they did it wrong at first, training birth attendants but not teaching entire villages of families24:25 The comprehensive problems need to be addressed, and it starts with families26:20 Kurt: It’s easy to project our perspective on someone else, but the solution needs to come from the people27:35 Sending toys to Africa: not understanding what the villagers really needed29:20 How to not project your experience on others: talk with them and observe what they don’t know how to do32:00 It’s not a matter of intelligence, but a lack of experience and opportunity34:22 Empowering individuals to believe that they can do this themselves and change their own lives37:55 They monitor villages for five years after the initial program and see how the people then take ownership and teach others39:30 It’s not about money but about giving people rewards for doing the work themselves40:20 Mentoring is ministering41:15 The self-reliance program isn’t just giving someone a manual, but working with the people to learn the principles42:30 You have to celebrate success when a goal is reached, giving positive feedback43:35 Many of the people they have taught skills to have gained the capacity to serve and gone on to be Church leaders44:40 Maslow hierarchy of needs: begin with the basic needs before they can engage in Church service45:25 Goal: be temporal centers of strength preceding spiritual centers of strength46:25 The Lord knows the needs of the people and will open doors for you to serve them47:15 Cindy’s first experience in Mozambique48:35 Just do it and the Lord will open the way, even if it seems scary or impossible49:15 Elder Packer: Walk to the edge of the dark and then take a couple more steps50:25 The Lord has a plan and it works out in spite of mistakes,

Jodi Taylor lives in Anchorage, Alaska with her husband and children, where they both work in real estate development. She is currently Coordinating Council Director of Public Affairs in the area. The coordinating council is responsible for building bridges in our communities, taking the ideas of ministering outside and into our neighborhoods to expand how the church works with community groups.Highlights 7:20 Jodi explains what the church is like in Anchorage. 8:35 Role of stake public affairs to help the stake leaders—but not just within their own boundaries. The coordinating council is there to help the stake public affairs to meet their goals. The public affairs department are the opinion leaders for the area. 10:10 She presents some general principles on how we can be involved in our communities 11:10 Jodi presents a story of stake and community involvement as a family and their coordinating council. She encourages all to find ways to be involved—find a need and fill it. 13:50 How we can find common ground and how the coordinating council helped with the evolution of discussions and changes within the LGBT community and legislation. Importance of knowing key people who can get to know you and trust you. She describes relationships built and a summit that was held to bring experts together. 24:15 It is important to have a dialogue. There are ways to bring our beliefs in the Savior into the activities we are involved in. We all have the ability to make change by doing what matters to us and what matters to others. 25:50 Find an issue that matters to someone else 28:20 We must talk openly about our faith 30:20 Jodi shares story of her teenage daughter who got involved to cause change. We can help make change no matter our age. Utilize social media. 38:55 How you bring something up to others will determine if they will listen. We should acknowledge pain/hurt and concerns—they will listen. The time to be involved is NOW. 42:30 Jody addresses public affairs and politics 45:30 Everyone should get involved. God has designed a role for each of us to add light to our communities. We shouldn’t just pray for the Lord to provide opportunities but we should actively seek them out. 46:45 "It has expanded my understanding of my brothers and sisters and I appreciate the good that each person brings."

In this podcast, Kurt interviews two women with the unofficial leadership calling of Bishop’s Wife. Sister Jill Walker First he speaks with Jill Walker, the wife of Bishop Jason Walker of Phoenix, Arizona. Bishop Walker has been serving for about seven months. They have been married for 27 years, have three children, and have lived in Phoenix for seven years.The Walker family Highlights 4:00 Introduction with Bishop Jason Walker 8:50 Called as bishop and then called again when ward boundaries were changed 9:45 Called shortly after a calling to the high council 10:45 Expectations she had, surprised and confused by new emotions such as feeling jealous of his time away 13:00 Journaled about her emotions but didn’t talk to anyone 13:50 The loneliness of not being able to talk about what he has been doing 14:20 Thoughts that she couldn’t burden him further with trivial family things when he had so many obvious burdens from his calling added to the sense of loneliness Principles of Leadership as the Bishop’s Wife16:25 Journal 18:25 Find ways to help–helps with loneliness 20:00 Pray–for your husband and for comfort for yourself 21:20 Spend time together–go with him to anything that is appropriate, but also on intentional dates, to the store, any moment possible 23:25 Focus on the positive–look for the blessings and personal growth24:55 Started sharing whatever spiritual moments they can, which has helped their partnership 26:30 She has learned to pay more attention to everyone and be more compassionate Sister Kasandra Merrill Next, Kurt speaks with Kasandra Merrill, wife of Bishop Scott Merrill of Mesa, Arizona. They both grew up in Mesa and have lived in the same ward since they were married. He has been serving as bishop for over four years. Kasandra comes from a large mixed family of 12 children, including step-siblings, and she and Scott have been married 24 years and have seven children.The Merrill family Highlights 30:30 She saw his calling coming but he did not 31:10 The circumstances in their family when he was called: five teenagers who then married or went on missions since his call, plus his busy job and she was in school full time 33:00 The first year was the most difficult for them to understand each other and each other’s roles because they approach life differently 34:00 She could sense the pain of ward members through him, but felt totally alone and unable to share her burdens with anyone 35:10 She was handling and carrying some heavy difficulties with their children all alone 37:00 She felt that he had the mantle of the calling to support him, while she had nothing 37:45 Figured out together how to handle their loneliness together and to share their burdens 38:40 Realized she has angels watching over and strengthening her, too 39:00 They were both called in for his calling as bishop 40:00 They may not have it all together but they are together 41:15 Allowed herself to not parent alone, or to own her children’s mistakes as hers 42:10 Their children all seemed to have had a positive experience with their dad as the bishop, but he let them know that if they wanted to talk to someone else they could go to the stake president 44:00 Don’t dwell on the negative 44:50 Living in a “glass house” 46:00 Her husband has been very private as bishop; she could sense anger and heartbreak but he didn’t/couldn’t share 48:05 Keeping their struggles open instead of private 48:45 Son came home early from his mission and they were open about everything with the ward, eliminating possible shame 50:15 Daughter attempted suicide and they were open about that too, further dissolving shame and bringing the ward together to support each other through difficult struggles 52:10 The Savior taught love and compassion Links How I Lead as the Bishop’s Wife | Interviews with Jordan Brown and Amanda Fristrom How I Lead as the Bishop’s Wife | An Interview with Alanna Francom

Tony Overbay began his career in the high tech world but felt the call to become a therapist and help men. For the past 13-14 years, he has been a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in Roseville, California. While Tony grew up in Utah, he is an adult convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He has been married 28 years, is a father of four, an ultra-marathoner, host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, creator of The Path Back, and currently serves on the Leading Saints Professional Therapists Advisory Board.Tony Overbay Highlights 12:45 Men in therapy - the stigma, stereotypes 14:40 Treatment of pornography addiction - behavior modification, identifying triggers “crimes of opportunity,” then thought, which leads to action/behavior. Tools to put distance between thoughts and action, initially, then work on thought, but have to deal with core issues to heal. 16:30 Core issues—feelings of inadequacy, not feeling connected to partner, job, or faith, poor health—have to be dealt with to heal from addiction. Go-to patterns of behavior learned in youth 17:45 Men have a harder time connecting, less likely to go to therapy, need to find ways to connect with a therapist first before talking about emotions before talking about the elephant in the room 20:45 "The bishop is not the therapist" mentality brings shame to the table because it doesn’t bring the connection. How can bishops help build connections? Bishops need authenticity and vulnerability to build connection, to avoid shame spiral by pushing to get to transgression immediately. Don’t rush it, show gratitude, build relationships, meet with love. A relationship is more important - can’t go and find another bishop, like a person can go find another therapist 26:20 Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear - Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf April 2017 - many bishops over-emphasize shame - sprinkling shame glitter - to make them know they did something "really bad." Have to give people hope and remove shame. 27:30 - Brother Tad Callister- guilt is the stop sign. Shame hangs around guilt and isn’t productive, is negative, and makes people feel horrible. Have to change the conversation because will lie when there are relapses 29:20 - Shame - leaders mix up shame and guilt. Shame is "you’re bad" and not "what you did is bad". Pornography addiction - first exposure - 8 to 11 yo - early exposure to pornography is early sexualization, which changes the wiring of the brain because the brain doesn’t know how to process information. Changes their perception of the world, have to understand with it to work with, and will remove the shame. 32:30 - Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf - minor things take a person further off course over time. What not to say to someone when talking to them because it makes the other person view it as shame and more broken and not empathetic because coming from a different point of view. 33:45 Dr. Patrick Carnes - sexual addiction counselor, sex addiction and pornography can be harder to overcome than drug or alcohol addiction because addictive obsession can cause mood alteration. Sex addicts carry their own source of supply in their brain. Prolonged use alters the brain. Why can’t I get it under control? Bishop asks why and doesn’t understand the why of a person wanting it. Unintended shame happens. 37:20 Double down on the empathy when people share. Jesus saw sin as wrong, but as needs not met. Look into lives of others to see their shortcomings, unmet needs, etc, that aren’t filled that we’re trying to fill. Need to focus on the deeper reason of why we sin and the need we’re trying to meet to become better. Have to help people find something to replace the void. Easier to add things to life than subtract from life. 40:00 - EFT - Emotionally Focused Therapy to connect with a spouse, which fills the void and turns toward a spouse. A person is greater than their sin or addiction. 41:00 How to create a situation where a person never faces sh...

Jane Clayson Johnson grew up playing the violin and attended BYU on a music scholarship, then changed her studies to journalism. After graduating, she worked for KSL News in Salt Lake City, then moved to Los Angeles where she was a correspondent for programs such as ABC World News Tonight and Good Morning America. She was later an anchor on The Early Show and a correspondent for CBS. Jane left her full-time job when she married her husband, Mark Johnson, to be a wife and mother. They have two children together and reside in Boston, where she also works as a fill-in host for NPR's On Point. She has written two books, I am a Mother and Silent Souls Weeping. Jane Clayson Johnson Highlights 5:45 About her book, I am a Mother 6:20 Hosts On Point for NPR 6:50 Considers self a storyteller 7:25 Authoring new book, Silent Souls Weeping, on the subject of depression, especially as it relates to her own experience with clinical depression 9:25 Wondered “How can I be so depressed when I am so blessed?” 11:35 After receiving treatment and beginning to feel better, Jane began to speak with others and realize how many people suffer with depression. She began interviewing others, and the book was born. 12:30 All interviews are with faithful Latter-day Saints who have struggled with depression 13:00 Kurt recommends the book for church leaders who are battling with depression, especially since as a leader he did not have any framework to help people who are suffering—no advice to offer beyond “go see a professional”; the book helps him understand different perspectives. 14:25 Jane has learned that we need to reach out and help each other, because so many of us don’t speak about the suffering; feels the worst part of depression is the “profound isolation” 16:30 So often we suffer in silence—it’s where the title of the book comes from, Silent Souls Weeping 17:35 Depression is easy to hide at church 18:00 One bishop made a list of the mental illnesses he saw in his ward and concluded about about one quarter of his ward were affected, and that was just the issues that he knew about 19:35 Depression can block us from feeling the spirit, God’s love 20:10 "It was like the most important part of my soul had been carved out of me" 20:20 When you are depressed and active in a church that often equates happiness with righteousness, depression can be tormenting 22:15 One sister described a sense of desperation, seeking help anywhere, felt depression was a sign that she was somehow unworthy, hypocritical 23:30 Depression happens to us regardless of our circumstances, the loss of the spirit may be the most distressing part of depression and why we need to seek treatment 23:50 Kurt reminds us depression does not only affect those who “don’t understand” the gospel but can affect anyone 24:20 One theme of the book is how depression affects our ability to feel the spirit. Another theme is the stigma attached to depression. 25:25 Kurt tells the story of one sister suffering with depression wished to be in the place of a sister with cancer’s shoes because of the extreme stigma and embarrassment she felt related to suffering with depression 26:30 Jane explains the woman with cancer and woman with severe depression were both admitted to the hospital at the same time—they were sisters. The depressed sister felt like people would treat her and her family differently if she had cancer instead of something stigmatized like depression. 27:25 Depression is not the result of personal inadequacy 27:40 It is not a black mark on your character; when you are in the depths of a clinical depression you cannot pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you are not going to fix it with hard work and discipline 28:05 One woman shared her experience, and her father said why don’t you put that all in a box, and just ignore it -- that’s not particularly helpful 28:20 One BYU student had terrible symptoms of depression, prescribed medication,

Autumn was born and raised in Utah. She met Chris while they were in high school. They have three children, and she is very creative and crafty. Chris also grew up in Utah. When he was of mission age, he told his bishop that he wasn’t going to serve. At a baseball game that same day he very nonchalantly proposed marriage to Autumn. They had been best friends but hadn’t even gone on a single date. Highlights Chris’ Story 6:00 Introduction to pornography and masturbation6:20 Differences in accessibility between then and now. 6:50 Shame caused him to keep it secret. He wanted to approach his bishop but didn’t know how. 7:30 Sexuality was not openly discussed in his family. 8:20 He began seeking out pornography 9:30 Decision made not to serve a mission10:15 Avoidance tips and how to help your children: have an open relationship with your children, sons and daughters10:45 Framing the question: “When was the last time…” as opposed to “If”. 11:15 Don’t let this be a taboo subject. Statistics show that 90% of children are exposed to pornography by age 9. 12:00 Talking about these subjects all along mitigates the shame of approaching parents when something happens. 12:20 When something happens, first express love. 12:45 Talking to the bishop is not a bad or shameful thing, but is a normal part of the healing process.17:20 Thought getting married would make addictions go away. Most of his friends in recovery had the same belief. 19:00 Called as ward Young Men president. Addictions triggered, multiple affairs began. 21:20 First meeting with bishop after getting caught, getting released, and the disciplinary council. Wanted to keep from his wife. Confessed only to the one affair, kept all else secret. 23:30 Example of the “addict brain”: he prayed to be excommunicated so that upon rebaptism he could be forgiven of all the other things which he had not disclosed. 29:00 Disfellowshipped. Starts marriage counseling. 29:30 Autumn confronts him about additional affairs, is hospitalized for a suicide attempt. Bargains with God to stop all bad behavior if Autumn lives. She survives. Chris begins disclosing most of his secrets to Autumn. 35:00 Breaking those promises to God. 36:00 The wisdom of allowing time to pass between a traumatic event and holding a disciplinary council. A buffer of time allows for stability and opportunity for spiritual healing. 36:40 Chris’ disciplinary councils were some the most spiritual experiences he’s ever had, and allowed him to feel God’s love, with the love of those in the council. 37:35 Excommunicated. 48:30 Church-sponsored Addiction Recovery Program (ARP) meetings: bishops are encouraged to attend shortly after being called so that they can refer individuals with knowledge of the resource. 1:02:10 Autumn empowers him to finally disclose every detail during a therapy session. True healing begins. Autumn and Chris start their therapy from square one, the real starting point for their recovery. 1:08:00 After full disclosure, commits 100% to church and Autumn. Focuses on falling back in love with her, byChecking in with her daily. Praying daily, asking for help to love her again. Studying his scriptures every night and finding personal application, which he then communicated with Autumn. 10 years sober, still maintains these habits.1:12:00 Finally gives self to Christ. 1:13:15 Leaders are there to empathize, connect, and to love--not to fix. Leaders assist members in coming to a point where they are ready to give themselves to Christ. Until members embrace “the formula” for themselves (read, pray, go to church), that surrender to Christ will not fully take place. 1:14:25 Reconvening council: re-baptism, patriarchal blessing, and priesthood blessing restoration. 1:16:00 Finding normalcy again and “maintenance” therapy. 1:19:35 “Recovery”: still tempted all the time and has to choose between “acting out” and “reaching out”,

Kurt Francom, the host of the Leading Saints podcast, is an adjunct professor at LDS Business College in Salt Lake City, Utah. During the fall semester, he taught a class called Leadership for Life and this episode is the main part of a final project of the course. You will hear from President Bruce C. Kusch, president of LDS Business College, and several students who were in the class.As this semester had gone by his class has gone thru many experiences in which they have been able to grow and change due to the way this style of learning. This new style of learning has been developed with the help of the college president, President Bruce Kusch, to create a new way of learning that they hope to bring to the whole curriculum of LDS Business College. Along with President Kusch and the students, they have been willing to share just how this changed them and made them into young leaders that can go forward in this world and be a light to follow. They have been willing to share some of the principles include:Becoming Converted to and hard work How to become unified by leading with friends Finding the courage to lead by creating a personal visionThis Leadership for Life class has grown into a group of leaders that have demonstrated the necessary skills to become the young leaders that are so instrumental to create change in their own lives and the lives of others.We invite you to listen to his student’s experiences as they have grown in his class and how their stories can help you to become a leader through the darkness.You should also consider how you can stimulate an immersive learning environment in your ward and specifically in the lives of the leaders you work with. After listening to this episode we invite you to TAKE A SHORT SURVEY that will help the students get feedback about the quality of the podcast episode (their final project).Links: Learner-Centered Teaching: Five Key Changes to Practices (this is a book that teaches more about immersive learning styles)LDS Business College WebsitePresident Henry B. Eyring's Devotional AddressTake the feedback survey

Alanna Francom grew up outside of Blackfoot, Idaho, the oldest of seven children. She attended Brigham Young University–Idaho and then decided to become a massage therapist and went to school in Salt Lake City, Utah. She met her husband, Kurt, in a Young Single Adult ward in Salt Lake, and has served alongside him while he was a bishop and in a stake presidency. They have two children.If you are a former/current bishop's wife, consider TAKING OUR SURVEY. Highlights 3:00 How Kurt and Alanna met 9:00 The need for content around being a bishop's wife 11:15 The bishop's wife is an unofficial calling 11:45 When Kurt was called as bishop 13:50 Alanna's perspective on their marriage during Kurt's time in leadership positions 16:40 Changes when Kurt was called to the stake presidency 17:10 Dealing with situational depression 20:40 Leadership principles: Advice for the bishop's wifeShare experiences: Grow in the experience togetherIt is helpful to know what he is doing and see the purpose of his service How to share and still maintain confidentiality (25:00)Make it a family calling (26:15)Rewarding to participate in visits together Ask yourself: What sort of bishop's wife do I want to be? Stake presidents: Invite the family to stand when the bishop is called (29:00) Look for simple family traditions to incorporate into your serviceFinding connection (31:40)Attended the wards Kurt visited as counselor in stake presidency Connected with ward members, stake presidency families, bishopric/stake presidency wives lunches Bishopric/presidency meetings as "guys night out" (35:40)Possibility of feeling left out Go out of the way to seek that sort of connection for yourselfBishops: Allow your wife to have spiritual opportunities at church (38:00)Sometimes it's hard and that's okay (38:40)"My wife has never complained" testimony (40:00) It's okay to give yourself permission to be sad, to want your husband there when he isn't Let yourself feel the feelings and be aware, and that will help dissipate it (42:45) Talk about what you're feeling and have real conversations with your husband45:20 Sharing Leading Saints feedback with Kurt and meeting listeners 45:50 Sharing growth experiences through callings has strengthened her testimony Links Leading Others to be Better Than Happy | An Interview with Jody Moore Be Bold with Jody Moore How I Lead as the Bishop’s Wife | Interviews with Jill Walker and Kasandra Merrill How I Lead as the Bishop’s Wife | Interviews with Jordan Brown and Amanda Fristrom

What a beautiful time of year it is to focus on the birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ. The #LightTheWorld campaign online is one of my favorite parts of this season and we hope that everyone will feel the effects of this effort.I am grateful for the opportunity we have had to team up with other Latter-day Saint podcasters and share of the sweet spirit of Christmas. In this episode you will hear from the following podcast hosts:Shawn Rapier, Latter-day Lives Podcast Nick Galieti, Latter-day Saint MissionCast Zack Cordell, Latter-day Saint Nutritionist Richie Steadman, The Cultural Hall Brandt Malone & Jenny Dye, Mormon News Report Jay & Brad, The Next Step PodcastOther Links:Lighttheworld.org Share your December 23 plans

Dustin Peterson is a leadership trainer with Proof Leadership Group and works with organizations to help develop their culture. He is also the author of “Reset: How to Get Paid and Love What You Do”, and coaches individuals to help them get unstuck in their careers. He currently serves in a stake presidency in Houston, Texas, and has previously served on a high council and as an early morning seminary teacher. In this podcast, Dustin talks about why we often believe we don't have talents, and how to identify and put our talents to work to bless those we lead and serve. Highlights 8:00 Calling to the Stake Presidency 10:10 Talents: People believe they don’t have them and don’t know how to identify them; helping people identify their talents is a tremendous gift 11:35 Identifying talents first allows us to magnify them 12:20 Talents are superpowers. They are powerful skills that make you unique. 14:30 Men are that they might have joy (2 Nephi 2:25) 15:10 Parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30)Every person has talents (verse 15) You can gain more talents (verse 15) Talents lead to joy (verse 21) When we are afraid, we tend to hide our talents (verse 25) Everyone that uses their talents gets more (verse 29) Those who bury them have them taken away (verse 29)16:30 Elders Quorum discussion of talents vs. 6th-grade class discussion of talents 19:45 The Broken Paradigm: What’s the problem with identifying our talents? Our mindsetsDeficit perspective: we identify our weaknesses (22:30) Scarcity belief: a few people have talents and the rest are left behind (25:30) Humility complex: we overvalue humility when it comes to talent and talk ourselves out of our own talents28:00 The secret is to be grateful. 29:00 How do we identify our talents?Definition: Things you do naturally, consistently well. Think energy. Skills are transferable and can be taught; talents are innate, energizing, and can be developed; a sign of talent is that it is instinctual 33:50 Talents energize and makes us feel good; we can become highly skilled at a weakness 34:20 What moments in my calling do I feel energized in? 36:00 God knows our talents and if we use our talents to serve, we will get where we need to be 36:30 Diversify your perspective on talents; talents come in three varieties, but we only give respect to “doing” talentsDoing: arranging, organizing, developing, communicating, writing Thinking: connecting, influencing, positivity, relating, empathy Feeling: ideating, inputting information, learning, analyzing41:30 What do you do when you don’t have a talent in a certain area? God expects us to develop all of these talents 42:15 Examples of talents that are easy to identify, and talents that are more difficult to noticeEasy: being a good athlete, gardening, singing, dancing, playing a musical instrument, drawing, painting, sculpting, cooking, baking, writing, public speaking, teaching, acting, composing songs, sewing, storytelling, repairing things, photography, bow hunting Less easy to notice: having empathy, being a peacemaker, being positive and energetic, communicating effectively, being a good listener, having self-control/discipline, being able to make decisions, setting goals, getting tasks accomplished, giving service, inputting or retaining information, mentally organizing information, analyzing and sorting data, being friendly and kind to others, putting others at ease, seeing the good in others, thrift, punctuality45:00 Talent is the “How” (Simon Sinek’s concentric circles) and it remains the same through any “What” 46:40 Identify your best day in the past 6 months in your calling and take notes on it. What were you doing? Who was it with/to/for? Why was it so meaningful?Talents release motivation and energy: your talents are buried in all of this information48:50 Artistic abilities as talents can extend beyond a sin...

Mike Ramsey lives in Burley, Idaho, with his wife and four children (ages two to nine years). He is president of Nifty Marketing, an internet marketing company, an author and speaker, and currently serves in his stake young men presidency. He was raised in a single-parent home with a lesbian mother, and his experience coming to terms with his his mother’s sexuality has taught him tools that other leaders can use to better connect with and support the youth they lead.Highlights 8:00 Mike's mother’s struggles with the Church, dating his father, and acknowledging her same-gender attraction11:30 How Mike finally connected with his father14:30 His experience as a youth, learning about and dealing with his mother’s same-sex attraction18:00 His mother’s struggles with religion and living in a spiritual but inactive home21:00 Why he moved to his grandparents’ home, struggling with shame, and not knowing how to handle his mother’s sexuality23:10 How he started going to church with his grandparents and friends25:25 Wanting to belong: it’s hard to be different and no one was willing to talk about Mike’s experience growing up with a gay parent. Leaders need to be willing to talk with youth about what they are experiencing, and just listening. It’s not about the answer, but about the conversation.29:15 Most youth want to learn how to live their lives and need leaders to open the door for conversation by sharing their own genuine life experiences. Youth need to hear the vulnerable experiences about how adults struggled as they were growing up. Shame is eliminated when we talk openly about our own lives.34:45 The cultural experience in the Church where no one is willing to talk about mistakes or transgressions they have experienced, and how that creates shame. This is changing as the Church is embracing transparency, but the transparency of sharing difficult life experiences hasn’t yet been embraced by everyone.38:05 Example of Alma the Younger and how approaching the Atonement that way facilitates trust between leaders and youth39:10 Trusting the bishop: Kurt’s experience as a bishop with a young man who only went to see him because his mom told him to40:30 Building trust as a bishop42:00 How youth leaders can help youth who are afraid to open up to their bishop43:40 Mike’s mission experience and creating connections of trust with his mission president, who was open and willing to love his missionaries. Experiencing sanctification through the Holy Ghost when he was finally able to connect to a leader who was willing to be vulnerable and accepting.50:50 Finally coming to terms with his shame and struggles about his mom’s sexuality, her difficult choices, and finally accepting who she is55:45 We are all broken in big and little ways, and fall short of the perfection of God. Asking questions, listening, and seeing people through the Savior’s eyes can help us be accepting of each other.

Interview transcript available below.Julie Bangerter Beck served as Relief Society General President from 2007-2012. She was born in Salt Lake City, Utah with nine siblings in Granger and Alpine, Utah, and in Sao Paulo, Brazil where her father served as mission president. She is a graduate of Dixie College (now Dixie State University) and Brigham Young University. Before her service as Relief Society General President, she served on the Young Women general board, as First Counselor in the Young Women General Presidency, and with her husband, Ramon, at the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Utah. Sister Beck is currently vice-chair of the Board of Trustees of Dixie State University. She also serves on the executive committee of the BYU Alumni Association. Her new book Joy in the Covenant shares deep-seated feelings and beliefs and draws heavily from her own experiences, the lives of her parents, and the lessons she learned from them. Highlights 5:40 Sister Beck's father and his service in the church 7:00 Sister Beck's parents' leadership examples 7:30 Advice from her parents as she served in leadership callings 8:30 Lessons from her father 9:10 The Lord builds his church through building people 9:40 Experience working with a general Young Women board member 13:20 Delegating in callings 15:00 Delegating as General Relief Society President 16:50 Her role as General Relief Society President- Agent of the Prophet 20:15 Relief Society President is an agent to the bishop and serves under his keys 22:35 Relief Society President's keys when set apart/Daughter's experience as Relief Society President 25:30 How to navigate the relationship between a Relief Society President and the Bishop 29:10 How to measure success in leadership/ Preach My Gospel pages 10-11 32:00 Sister Beck's experience being called as General Relief Society President with President Hinckley 34:00 President Hinckley's counsel and emphasis that presidents choose their own counselors 37:30 Counselors help the president be the best they can be 40:45 Best practices for a sister that sits on a ward council 44:00 What was her first day like as General Relief Society President 51:00 How being a General Relief Society President has made her a better follower of Jesus Christ Links Joy in the Covenant Interview Transcript [00:04:00] Kurt: Today, I’m in downtown Salt Lake City in a room with sister Julie Beck. How are you?Julie: I’m doing great. Thank you.Kurt: Good. Well, this is quite an opportunity. I’ve seen you on TV a lot but never in person, so this is a great opportunity.Julie: People look different in person.Kurt: Right? You’re a little more blonde than I think I remember you.Julie: It’s called being outside and sun-bleached hair.Kurt: Nice, okay. Good. You recently poured your heart and soul into a book project that you recently released called Joy in the Covenant. What was the impetus for this book project?Julie: The impetus was that I had been preparing messages for a number of events and things, and I wanted to share them with my family. But in today’s world, you can’t just send out an email, and I decided I needed to protect those messages, and they needed some refinement. I wanted them for my family and friends, people who have been asking me to share. So I thought, “We’ll see if we can collect these into something that would [00:05:00] be a book. And I am quite pleased with it, how it turned out.Kurt: I was able to read a good amount of it, and there are some engaging stories here, some that I never realized we’re part of your past like going to Brazil, and some of those things that obviously had an imprint on your life.Julie: Well, these are messages prepared after my release as General President. So they’re much more autobiographical or personal just because of the places I was able to share each message. They’re all standalone messages but they connect with themes running throughout,

Anthony Sweat is an assistant professor of Church History and Doctrine at BYU, teaching approximately 1000 students each semester. Previously he taught seminary and institute for 13 years. With an early interest in art he obtained a BFA from BYU before pursuing religious education, earning an M.Ed and Ph.D in curriculum and instruction from Utah State University. His sustained interest and skill in art provides him an avenue of expression that he often blends into his teaching of religion, especially by painting church history scenes previously undepicted. He has authored books including a recent one regarding the temple endowment. His outside interests include basketball and triathlon. Dr. Sweat and his wife Cindy are the parents of seven children.Highlights 07:20 Discussion of what constitutes official Church doctrine? Doctrine of Christ; other doctrines. 10:23 Culture or doctrine? 13:00 Where do we find doctrine? Church handbooks, standard works, official correlated Church publications; Family Proclamation. Multiple witness concept versus “outliers.” Unanimous (by the Brethren) declarations. Cohesive, cumulative statements from Church leaders acting as the Lord’s agents. Reference to D&C 107:27. 19:00 Types of doctrines. 2011 official Church statement during the campaign season involving presidential candidate Mitt Romney. What about a single statement by a single leader on a single occasion—binding? Avoid pitting one general authority against another. Are some doctrines more important than others? Are core doctrines unchangeable? What are “supportive doctrines” according to the model (four rings) developed by Dr. Sweat and his colleagues? Can faithful members have differing views on supportive doctrines? Progressing in the next life? Discussion of policies or doctrines that are authoritative, timely and unique to a given time period. Are they “mere policies?” Can they be clarified/amplified? 30:13 Don’t try to get ahead of or undercut prophets/revelators. Scriptures authenticate that God honors His prophets. Example of tribes of Israel that were required to wait to receive the priesthood. Orthodox today but heterodox tomorrow. Brigham Young said Section 76 was a “great trial” to him, but he did not reject it and later understood. 33:42 Fourth ring: “Esoteric doctrine” is obscured or ambiguous. Role of Mother in Heaven? Is Jesus married? Is there kingdom progression in the next life? What’s on sealed portion of Book of Mormon? 34:33 Section 128:9 relates to receiving revelation and is “bold doctrine.” Prophets who hold sealing keys, acting truly and faithfully as the Lord’s agents, have the authority to record on earth and bind in heaven. The role of “agents.” 39:51 Dealing with ambiguity in a church classroom setting. Clarity can come through the “wrestle.” Inviting discussion without straying from doctrine. Teaching what is declared and known without shutting off sincere comments about things that are not. “Managing opinions.” Listening without agreeing. 49:30 Leaders need to be dialed into core doctrines and official policies. 50:25 There are clearly things that have not yet been revealed. Embrace ambiguity. Just as artists don’t always reveal precisely what they had in mind in their work of art, God seems to want us to grow by wrestling with some things where only hints are provided. He wants “seekers” who ask and knock. 53:35 Gratitude for Joseph’s role as a called, inspired, and revelatory prophet who nonetheless had mortal weaknesses. Each of us, though weak, can be instruments in the Lord’s hands.Links anthonysweat.com Instagram: brotheranthonysweat The Holy Invitation: Understanding Your Sacred Temple Endowment Doctrine: Models to Evaluate Types and Sources of Latter-day Saint Teachings Approaching Mormon Doctrine

What is Leading Saints? You can read more about Leading Saints on our ABOUT PAGE, but in short, Leading Saints is a non-profit (501c3) organization that is striving to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. As many of you probably know, when you are called to lead you are not always given any official training. We hope the resources at Leading Saints will supplement your leadership development and help you bless the lives of other Latter-day Saint who you lead. What Topics Are Discussed on Leading Saints? You will find a variety of topics discussed through our podcast, online articles, and webinars. The best place to start is to use the website search function or to explore content related to the following callings:Bishopric Stake Leadership Relief Society Elders Quorum Primary Youth Leadership Ward Mission TeachingLeading Saints Podcast We post new podcasts once a week (sometimes more) in which Kurt Francom interviews an author, trainer, or leader (typically with a Latter-day Saint background). Our episodes are easy to listen to on the go — about 30-60 minutes — and are available on most major podcast providers: Stitcher, Apple Podcasts (iTunes), or any other player of your choice. Be sure to subscribe through your favorite podcasting app so that you don't miss any future episodes. If you need help with subscribing watch this video. We have over 250 episodes so we recommend starting with the most listened to episodes and going from there. Popular Podcast SeriesHow I Lead These are podcast interviews where we sit down with every-day, prolific leaders that serve in various lay leadership callings (bishops, EQP, YW President, mission president, etc.). We ask them basic questions about how they approach the challenges in their calling, and what you can learn is priceless. WIWIK (What I Wish I Knew) These are compilations of short clips where leaders share a short perspective about what they wish they knew before they were bishop, or Relief Society president, etc. We also answer questions about what they wish they knew before performing a wedding, or organizing a primary program. Leaders Teaching Leaders This is a series of posts that share what leaders of the Church have learned from other leaders of the Church. This might include stories from general conference, accounts of one leader attending a stake conference with another leader, or simply recollections one leader’s interaction with someone they respected. There are great leadership skills one can learn by pondering these interactions.Webinars Each week Leading Saints conducts additional interviews via Facebook Live where we dig into a specific training or topic that will further benefit the lay leadership audience. You can watch the latest interview on our homepage. To access the full library of past webinars you can become a Core Leader. See details below. Leadership Summits We are striving to create in-depth online summits and training modules that focus on specific leadership topics. Explore the summits below...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKJpUAlgEsMORE DETAILS ABOUT MOTIVATING SAINTS Products Visit the Leading Saints Store to see the awesome products available for purchase. All proceeds go towards the support of Leading Saints. Never Miss Leading Saints Content To make sure you never miss the valuable content created on Leading Saints be sure to do the following:Subscribe to the podcast (see above) Subscribe to the weekly Newsletter Follow us on Social MediaFacebook Instagram TwitterJoin the Leading Saints Community Become a Core Leader We want to reward our monthly/yearly donors with additional content because without their contributions we would not be able to continue creating valuable content. Everyone that contributes through an automatic donation will be apart of the Core Leader community which has a...

Jason Mount is a medical doctor practicing emergency medicine in Georgia, originally from California. He is near the end of his third year serving as a bishop, after previously serving as a counselor in the bishopric. Highlights 5:20 Calling as bishop 8:20 Making calls as the bishop: sometimes the Lord leaves the decision to him 10:50 Demographics of his ward 12:35 Principles of servant leadership he has applied as a bishop13:50 Learned the principle of servant leadership that "whatever works for them, works for me" 15:50 Habits of being a servant leader as a bishop: makes a greater effort to be more accommodating with his schedule 16:50 Refers to his office as "The Bishop's Office" 18:00 Personal prayer before leaving home to serve as bishop: "What would you say? And I will say it"19:30 General advice is not always the best advice: taking it case-by-case 21:30 Drawing boundaries and delegating: doesn't give out his cell number, food orders through Relief Society President, interviews 24:30 The Lord can use different types of leaders to do the same calling 27:25 Experience as a ward mission leader, learning to report back on his calling 32:30 The insight as a leader to see others as the Lord sees us is humbling and gives hope

You need to seriously look at your calendar on November 27, 2018.We are having an event calling Ministering Saints Global Leadership Conference in Salt Lake City, Utah in the Joseph Smith Memorial Building.If you can be there in person we strongly encourage you to do so. (Seats are very limited)If you will not be in the Salt Lake City area on November 27, that's okay. We are going to live stream the event online for the world to see (but you still need to register).The conference is completely free and will change your leadership forever!To find out all the details and to register visit THE EVENT PAGE.

Rebecca Petho currently serves as a Relief Society President in her Philadelphia, PA ward. She has spent her career working with non-profit organizations as a fundraising expert and currently serves on the Board of Directors of Leading Saints.Sister Petho grew up in the Gettysburg, PA area in a home where hard work and the expectations to contribute and play a role in the home were emphasized. Those lessons have helped shape the type of leader she has been in her church service in Young Single Adult wards and traditional family wards from West Virginia to Salt Lake City to Philadelphia, where she now lives with her husband. In this episode, she talks about the lessons she learned while immersed in the Young Single Adult culture, the importance of being authentic when serving in leadership roles, and helping others to be authentic themselves. Highlights (11:45) How can individuals avoid getting trapped in culture and traditions?Try to avoid focusing on perceived external perceptions of ourselves(16:30) How has her identity as a Latter-Day Saint woman been shaped by her YSA experiences?Truly embrace the opportunities that are right in front of you Controlling what you can control and embracing it Faith that our lives will come together in a way we can’t even imagine Recommended reading: “Where There is No Vision” – Elder L. Tom Perry BYU Devotional address Identify the things that bring us true joy and finding ways to be involved in those thingsWhat did you learn from the YSA culture?So many who are willing to serve and support YSAs, but it becomes an extension of the YM/YW program Provide opportunities for YSAs in the ward to be the true leaders in the ward Help them feel more needed and empower them to be leaders in the ward(29:15) What lessons were learned serving as Relief Society President in YSA wards that have helped her serve in the same calling in a family ward?Examine our self-talk, fears, and past experiences in order to fully embrace the current opportunity to serve Every individual and every ward is different and we must keep an open mind in how we approach our current calling(38:10) What does it look like to be patient with others and allow them to be who they are in our leadership callings?Being authentic with people and knowing who we are ourselves Being willing to allow others to be authentic themselves(41:30) How does she approach leadership while adapting to the needs of the wardA groundwork of order and consistency After those principles are established, allowing for individuality and authenticity Approaching authenticity with humility(51:30) Where do we put our energy? (54:45) Sister Petho gives Kurt an assignment: How can the stewardship of the Relief Society President, Elders Quorum President, and Bishop work together more effectively? Links "Where There is No Vision", by Elder L. Tom Perry: text | video

Ryan Gottfredson is an assistant professor of Organizational Behavior at Cal State Fullerton where he researches and teaches leadership, and is a leadership consultant. He first became interested in organizational behavior during high school in a sports psychology class, and now holds a Ph.D. in Organizational Behavior and Human Resources from Indiana University and a BA from Brigham Young University. He has worked for Gallup and written multiple articles for Leading Saints, including a series of articles on community. Highlights 8:10 Where the community articles started 9:50 Many people attend church but they don’t feel they fit, or don't attend“What community is and why is it important?” How do we create a community in the church so everyone feels welcome?14:00 There are three community types: basic, involved and united. It is a continuum.14:45 Basic community: little attachment, little involvement, much like an alumni group, few demands and little connection 15:45 Involved community: share more, some emotional connection but still disconnected but not fully accepted, much like a large workplace 17:30 United community: Share interests, goals and beliefs. Strong identification with group much like a family: when they hurt, we hurt. Provides acceptance, love and protection. This is what it should be within the church.20:20 A united community is ingrained deep in the LDS culture and doctrinally founded, but with some negative side effectsLow cognitive diversity. Can't think outside a box, inability to allow different perspectives. This is not doctrinal thought, but community thought. 25:30 Lack of inclusivity. Difficult to allow others in, many feel judged, hard to accept others. Often is unintentional judging over what is/is not socially acceptable (tattoos, piercing). 29:00 Lower psychological safety: When something is different, or comments in class get questioned, others are less likely to share. People feel uncomfortable expressing their opinions. 33:40 "Sometimes we have a stronger desire to be right, than we do to love others."36:20 How do we improve the united community in the Church? We must be "intentional". 37:20 Six elements of an intentional communityCharity Safety Openness Inclusiveness Being present Having a clear purpose and common cause38:30 Charity: we must see everyone as people, and value them as such.41:00 Safety: do our members feel safe and able to to comment in class?43:25 Openness: we have a social pressure to certainty. If value is on knowing, we are limiting learning. We don't know all and we can learn from others45:50 Inclusiveness: everyone should feel welcome. Don't let little things get in the way of loving them. Care less about how they look and more about how they feel.47:40 Be Present: we are as involved as we can be, regardless, while we are there in attendance we should be present. Make our meetings matter, provide a value. Intentionally create meetings worth coming to.50:45 Having Purpose: is everyone heading in the same direction?53:00 Cliques are not necessarily bad. Smaller groups may allow more connections with others. Perhaps smaller groups can strengthen the whole community.56:40 Most important to understand what community is and why it is important. Be mindful. Links https://www.ryangottfredson.com/ Articles about community in the Church:The Foundation of Belonging Flaws We Need to Recognize and Overcome Becoming an Intentional Community Moving Forward in a Changing Social LandscapeThe Anatomy of Peace: Resolving the Heart of Conflict, by The Arbinger Institute Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the Box, by The Arbinger Institute

Scott Braithwaite has a PhD in Clinical Psychology and specializes in marriage counseling. He is an associate professor at Brigham Young University and a popular presenter at BYU Education Week, where he most recently taught about supporting loved ones through a faith crisis. He is currently serving as bishop of his ward.Highlights 10:10 The difference between sadness and depression 13:40 Leaders should ask for recommendations for good qualified counselors 14:15 You choose who to marry. God gives you agency. 17:40 Scott shares his experience going through a faith crisis 22:40 James Fowler’s Stages of Faith can be helpful in understanding what someone may be going through. Stage three faith identifies as a group, has rules, and is concrete. Most fall under this level of faith. Things also appear black and white. 29:00 During a faith crisis the bottom falls out, they can leave the faith and find community elsewhere. 30:35 Going through the stages of faith are not linear 33:00 Perfectionism shows up in our minds as rules, as all or nothing. 33:40 Doctrinal Latter-day Saints vs. Cultural Latter-day Saints 34:50 Sometimes struggling with faith comes from cultural issues 36:50 The idea of organic evolution showcases the different thought processes of doctrinal vs. cultural Latter-day Saints 38:10 You can’t go back to stage 3 40:30 Stage 5 is accepting the complexity of faith 40:50 Faith allows room for doubt 42:00 All faith allows room for wrestling 43:00 Stage 6 examples, such as Mother Teresa. Most people fall between stages 3, 4, and 5. 46:40 We can act as a midwife and help while people are in a faith crisis 48:30 Help others going through a faith crisis by listening to them. Listen more than talk. 50:50 Elder Ballard: Leaders ought to know and be able to address the difficult questions 56:00 There is a progression from stage 3 to stage 4 57:00 We should be able to talk about doubt at church 59:45 Help create a culture of faith 1:02:00 Elder Hafen's stages of faith Links"Like a Broken Vessel", by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda King Newell Stages of Faith, by James Fowler Planted, by Patrick Mason On Dealing with Uncertainty, by Bruce C. Hafen Scott Braithwaite BYU Bio

Doug Nielsen is a psychotherapist, executive coach, and motivational speaker who decided from an early age to become a psychotherapist and speak to and teach others. In his practice, he works mostly with individuals battling depression, anxiety, addictions, and marital problems. In his coaching and speaking work, he works with small business owners all the way up to very high-earning professionals. He works with individuals as well as speaking to groups of 1000 or more individuals. He is also a published author of a book called “Take Life By the Helm” and has another one in the process of being written. He has served in multiple bishoprics and is currently on a high council.In this podcast episode, we discuss the book Wild at Heart by John Eldredge. The target audience of this book is mostly men, although women will benefit greatly by understanding better where a Christian man is coming from.Doug will be hosting a retreat in Liberty, Utah, November 8th-10th, 2018. For details on this retreat, please visit https://www.awarriorheart.com/Highlights 17:30 – Introduction of some principles from the book “Wild at Heart”. A typical male heart naturally seeks:A battle to fight An adventure to live A beauty to rescue18:30 – Discussing the principle of the male heart’s desire for a battle to fight and some discussion on helping self and an elders quorum to recalibrate after an encounter with a numb heart. 37:45 – Three questions to ask God and ways to incorporate these principles and promote vulnerability and realness into your elders quorum.How do you see me, Father? Do you like me? What are you up to in my life? What are you trying to teach me, Father? How can I glorify you? How can I bring praise to you?39:50 – Discussing the principle of the male heart’s desire for an adventure to live. 41:20 – Discussing the principle of the male heart’s desire for a beauty to rescue. Some ways to approach talking to the women in our lives and helping them and engaging with them in meaningful ways. Discussion of slaying the natural man dragon within ourselves. How to define our mission in our relationships. 48:00 – Discussion on applying these principles in a ward or quorum. 50:00 – Discussion of the retreat and information on how to participate in this or a future retreat. LinksDougSpeaks.com Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret to a Man's Soul Take Life by the Helm! Proven Strategies for Gaining Control A Warrior Heart Retreat - Sign Up

Tithing settlement is, no doubt, a busy time of year for not only the bishop but for the bishopric. Thousands of wards and branches around the world will all make it happen starting October 15 and so it would be helpful to share notes and find the best approach to tithing settlement.In this episode, bishops or bishopric members share how their ward approaches tithing settlement. They each share some great ideas that can improve you efficiency to tithing settlement this year.We will build on this episode and add additional tithing settlement ideas. If you would like to share your approach in order to help other wards better execute tithing settlement, please contact us and we will give you further details.One new option was shared by listener and application/web developer Jason Graves, who made some updates to the tear-off sheet and published it for use via Google Sheets. It's easy to adjust. You just have to save your own copy in your own Google account, then enter the start date/time and the end date/time and select how long you want each appointment to last. Then it will build out the form for you. See the link below. Links:How I Lead: Brandon Leavitt How I Lead: Mark Sieverkropp How I Lead: Nathan Waldron How I Lead: Marco Ferrini How I Lead: Aaron Chesley Tithing Settlement Tear-Off Schedule Adjustable Version of Tithing Settlement Tear-Off Schedule Tithing Settlement in 2 DaysQuotes about Tithing A Prerequisite to Higher Ordinances Tithing is one of the many standards that allows us to rreceive saving ordinances.Brigham Young wrote in an epistle of the Quorum of the Twelve: “Enter steadily and regularly upon a strict observance of the law of tithing … then come up to the House of the Lord, and be taught in his ways, and walk in his paths.” (History of the Church, 7:282.)Elder Taylor then taught: “It is our duty to pay our tithing, one-tenth of all we possess, and then one-tenth of our increase, and a man who has not paid his tithing is unfit to be baptized for his dead. … It is our duty to pay our tithing. If a man has not faith enough to attend to these little things, he has not faith enough to save himself and his friends.” (History of the Church, 7:292–93; italics added.) The Lord's Revenue System Tithing is the Lord’s revenue system, and He requires it of the people, not because He is lacking in gold or silver, but because [we] need to pay it. …"The prime … purpose behind the establishment of the law of the tithe is the development of the soul of the tithe-payer, rather than the providing of revenue. The latter is an all-important purpose, for so far as money is needed for the carrying on of the work of the Church the Lord requires money that is sanctified by the faith of the giver; but blessings beyond estimate … are assured unto him who strictly conforms to the law of the tithe because the Lord hath so commanded.” (James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1924, pp. 528–29) A Test of Faith “I think when people say they haven’t money enough to pay tithing, they should say they haven’t faith enough to pay tithing. It is my conviction that we pay tithing with faith and not with money, because when a man has so much money that he has a large tithing, he can’t pay tithing. He has too much money and too little faith to pay tithing, and just feels he can’t afford it.” (Improvement Era, June 1953, pp. 435–36.) George Q Cannon How Much Tithing to Pay? The law of tithing was given to the whole Church. The First Presidency has written what the law of tithing is for us today: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.” (First Presidency letter, 19 March 1970.)

Aaron Chesley lives in Boise, Idaho, and says he wouldn’t be the same person without Leading Saints. He currently serves as a bishop, but has racked up most of his church leadership experience while serving as a young men president, serving twice for a total of four years. He’s also been a scoutmaster three times and has served in his stake young men presidency. He has military experience in the Army reserves, served as a missionary, and has been married for 21 years. Highlights How Can Bishops Help Young Men and Young Women Prepare for Military Service?Aaron served in the military and suggests that bishops teach young men and women to go in to the military with “eyes wide open”. Bishops should help youth be aware that they can make a choice to fold in to military culture and give up your standards, or they can choose to stand out. The military is a difficult environment for keeping gospel standards, but it’s fantastic for learning and leadership. Ensure that youth understand that temptations will abound. Expect to, like Aaron, be the designated walker or driver, and be ready to accept the challenge of keeping standards.Including Bishop’s Wife Appropriately in Service Based on his experience as a bishop, Aaron recommends that a bishop use their wife as a third counselor. He says his wife’s insights are valuable and different than his. Kurt and Aaron agree that bishops can appropriately include wives in the blessings the bishop is seeing through his service by communicating with her about non-confidential experiences. Advice for Young Men LeadersThe first time he was called to serve as young men president, Aaron was a young leader. He felt out of place and that he didn’t know what he was doing. He asked many questions, but felt overwhelmed because he had so little training. After a ward split, Aaron was called again to serve as young men president. By the time he served again, he had much more experience serving in the young men and scouting organizations. He felt he was more ready and had ideas about organizing the young men president.Five Leadership Principles for Young Men Presidents (16:00) 1. One half of one percent Aaron believes the spirit is the most important factor in Priesthood third hour. After a particularly discouraging lesson where he ended class early and sent young men to their parents, he had to decide whether he’d quit or try to stick it out as a young men’s leader. After some calculating, he learned that he’d spent just one half of one percent of a young man’s time in the third hour of church. What could he share with these young men that would be meaningful to them? He determined the spirit was the most important thing to invite into every classroom and implemented that the following week. During this segment Aaron explains how he sought to make third hour a spiritual experience. (22:00) 2. Train leaders Aaron mentions how he didn’t know what other people’s responsibilities were, so he took on everyone’s responsibility themselves. During later service he received a specialized training with each member of the presidency using the handbook, and explained what was expected of them in their position. During this segment, he describes how he implemented what he learned about training effectively during his later tenure as young men president, including ensuring spouses understand what the time commitment will be. (28:00) 3. Never use a planning night as an activity Aaron believes that planning night discourages young men from coming, and planning is meant for presidency meeting. He also describes how to teach young men to use the military-style After Action Report (AAR) to learn from mistakes and avoid them in the future. (34:00) 4. Communication Aaron believes communication between leaders and youth, leaders and other leaders, and between leaders and parents is essential. Technology has made it easy for us to communicate with each other.

Mark Mathews was born in Houston, TX. He served a mission in Guatemala and met his wife at Brigham Young University. He later earned a Ph.D. in education from Utah State University. He has been involved with Seminary and Institute for 14 years and has spent his last 1.5 years at Brigham Young University. Highlights Temples5:27: Will include the word “temple” in his class titles moving forward. 6:14: There are many things that happen in the temple that can and should be discussed. 7:24: To understand the temple, the best source is the Doctrine and Covenants as the Lord reveals and restores knowledge regarding the purpose and power of temples.Priesthood Keys (8:42)9:21: Understanding priesthood keys 9:36: What is the priesthood, and what are priesthood keys? 10:37: Keys give the right to be the president, to direct, control, and preside over the priesthood and the work of the priesthood in the church within a jurisdiction 11:20: Different keys were gradually restored over time and as needed.Aaronic Priesthood keys, John the Baptist: authority to baptize Melchizedek Priesthood keys; “The Keys of the Kingdom”; Peter, James, and John: authority to preside over, organize, and lead the church Keys of the Gathering of Israel, Moses: “gathering” begins with missionary work, and culminates in gathering disciples to the temple Keys of Abraham’s Dispensation, Elias (27:25): celestial marriage Sealing Power, Elijah 14:47: Quorum presidents17:24: Before being taught anything regarding priesthood keys, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery are taught in Doctrine and Covenants 18, “remember, the worth of souls is great in the sight of God” and the importance of bringing those souls unto Christ. Each quorum president, adult, and youth, must understand the worth of the soul, and the charge to help bring those souls unto Christ.22:36: Keys helps members know whom to follow. When members hear contradictory messages, follow the keys. 24:00: While we have many general authorities, we have only fifteen individuals who hold all of the keys, and we sustain them as “prophets, seers, and revelators”. 25:11: Delegation. Seventies do not hold keys but are acting using keys delegated to them by key holders. The same principle applies to counselors to keyholders.Sealing Power26:22: Seals all ordinances performed for both the living and the dead. 32:43: The importance of proper record keeping: Joseph Smith taught that as ordinances are recorded on earth, they are recorded in Heaven. “All things are spiritual.” 34:28: On sealing cancellations. “When you are sealed in celestial marriage, you aren’t just sealed to your partner. . . you are being sealed up to Eternal Life. . . When a marriage is dissolved, you don’t want to cancel that sealing until they are ready to renew it again with someone else. Even if they don’t want to be with their partner, they still have been sealed up to certain blessings that they don’t want to loose/unseal.” (not ‘lose’--important distinction). God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful. He will not force somebody to spend eternity with somebody against their will. 39:22: What happens to the sealing of the children of divorced parents? All your losses will be restored to you; see Doctrine and Covenants 130:2. 45:54: We should seek to better understand the doctrines behind sealing and God’s loveThe New and Everlasting Covenant46:28: The sum of all ordinances and covenants, not simply eternal marriage. 49:17: This is the same covenant that was given to Abraham. It is the fulness of the gospel. It helps us understand what the Restoration is. It is the Plan of Salvation. 54:15: These ordinances are connecting to become exalted and become like our Heavenly Parents.How has being a leader made you a better follower of Jesus Christ?55:31: Appreciate those who are willing to follow,

Steve Hitz has founded and led companies, and served with his wife, Ginger, as a young single adults bishop. He is a founding member of Launching Leaders Worldwide Inc. Michael Leonard is the Executive Director of Launching Leaders and has worked in higher education and Church public affairs. Launching Leaders is a faith-based nonprofit leadership program for young adults. It started as a course at BYU Hawaii and later became a book and online course. Highlights 9:00 Come alongside: learning together instead of learning in a hierarchical manner12:00 Their mission is to empower young adult leaders, offering the course worldwide to groups of many faiths13:30 Discussion in a group setting without hierarchy empowers young adults in applied learning, bringing enlightenment 17:00 How the course operates with interfaith groupsSpeaking the language of young adults reaches them where they might otherwise be losing their faith Religious Freedom and Business Foundation Using the course in YSA wards and church schools26:00 YSA bishopricsAllow space for faith with young adults Cycle of spiritual guidance30:00 Compartmentalization and congruency: bringing the parts together and embracing your whole self34:30 Example of reaching congruency 38:00 The formula: Get up early, work hard, get your education, make your mark, give back42:00 Developing daily mindfulness 44:00 Giving back every day instead of waiting to do it as older adults47:00 MentorshipsFinding and adopting their own mentors Be bold to create a relationship New models of mentoring The Mosiah principle: Every gift comes from God56:00 Advice for YSA bishops58:10 How to get started using Launching Leaders or contributing to the organization Links Website: www.llworldwide.org Book: Launching Leaders: An Empowering Journey for a New GenerationSteven A. HitzMichael Leonard

Mark Matheson is a visiting professor of business at "the BYU of the East Coast", Southern Virginia University. Matheson received a doctorate in organizational leadership from the University of Phoenix, a master’s degree in business administration from Harvard University and a bachelor’s degree in chemical engineering from the University of Utah. In 2010, Matheson was an Entrepreneur in Residence at The Willes Center for International Entrepreneurship at BYU-Hawaii. He worked for 25 years as a stock market analyst. He grew up in Utah, lived in seven different states during his childhood, and served his mission in Switzerland and France. He has an instagram page, @scriptureanalyst, that makes you see scriptures in a different way. Highlights 8:30 Southern Virginia University mission statement- create leader servants11:00 Being a proactive leader, not just serving the squeaky wheel13:00 Using ideas of others not just the bishop14:25 Return and report- how to hold people accountable16:30 Being an effective servant leader- removing obstacles and providing resources17:45 3 T's- Time, Tools, Training18:40 "People don't know how much you know until they know how much you care"21:00 Leadership by walking around21:45 Two to-do lists23:30 Less time being reactive and more time being proactive24:45 Good interactive prayers25:45 Book: It's Your Ship, by D. Michael Abrashoff "Being the best darn ward in the stake"29:00 Am I doing good for someone else today?31:00 Example of Sunday school teacher going the extra mile34:00 Balance between humble and meek35:40 Accountability in church callings37:00 Stephen R. Covey- emotional bank accounts- put deposits in followers' bank accounts40:00 A good leader takes more blame than credit43:00 Giving permission for those you lead to be creative in their callings46:00 Making church procedures better by doing them differently Links Instagram: Scripture AnalystBook: It's Your Ship, by D. Michael Abrashoff

Dr. Hank Smith has taught seminary, institute, and now teaches at Brigham Young University. He is a regular speaker at religious programs, corporate training events, school assemblies, and educational conferences. He is a master teacher and in this episode, he shares with us some of his secrets and tactics that we can all apply to improve our teaching. This interview was originally part of the Leading Saints Teaching Saints Virtual Summit.Transcription Available Below Highlights 4:45 Start with remembering why you are teaching: Genesis 44:34 How can we go back to Heavenly Father without these students? 7:00 Teaching is like art: There are fundamentals but otherwise everyone's art is different. Get the fundamentals and then play to your strengths. 10:45 What to do when a discussion is not happeningWrite out your questions beforehand Add "Why do you think...?" when asking a question Build-in the silence so it isn't awkward Let people know you're going to ask them Avoid the easy questions Be authentic about wanting a discussion18:30 Look at examples of the Savior teaching: John 4Set them up to get their attention Know your students and make it relevant to them Bring up testimony at the right moment25:30 More effective when teaching by a one-by-one ministry 29:20 Watch for moments to get to, rather than getting through material 30:30 Using gratitude and praise 33:45 Collect and use stories 38:25 Prepare until you're excited 39:50 Mark 2: four people working together to carry a man to Jesus 42:45 How to share scripturesPower in translating it into modern language, in word-for-word reading, and in summarizing Ask: did you understand? Read with enthusiasm and personality47:45 There's an ideal, but be okay with the realInterview Transcript Leading Saints (LS): Welcome back to another session of the Teaching Saints Virtual Summit. This is one of the later recordings that we're doing, and it's been fun to see everything unfold, and people from around the world, thousands of individuals tuning in and hopefully gaining some insight on how to be better teachers in the church. Today I'm back on the campus of BYU, talking with Dr. Hank Smith. How are you?Hank Smith: Hello. Good to be with you, Kurt.LS: Now, tell the 10 people out there listening that have never heard of you, give them some background.Hank: Yes, the 10 out of the 11 who are listening. I've taught in [seminaries institutes? 00:00:52] for...it's been since 2000, so 18 years. I moved over to BYU in 2010, and I've taught here since then. [00:01:03] I work for Deseret Book a little bit, BYU Education Week, EFY, try to spread some goodness.LS: Nice, awesome. As I usually start out with, I want to imagine that we're in front of a room full of new gospel doctrine teachers, maybe seminary teachers, youth teachers, let's go through some points on improving teaching. But where do we start? What's a good jumping off point?Hank: I think for me, personally, I have to remember why we do what we do because it can get tiresome. And sometimes things don't go as well as planned, and you think, "Why do I even try," because it's not working. So you have to remember why. You come back to why.I have to go through my reasons why I do what I do, and in Genesis 44, Joseph is testing his brothers to see if they've changed. This is when he's in Egypt and they've come to Egypt for food, and he wants to see if they've changed, [00:02:03] and so he frames Benjamin. Most people have seen the play, haven't read the book, but most people know the play.LS: Which is a historically [acting].Hank: Right, right. Yeah, totally. They sing the songs right here in the chapters. But in Genesis 44, he said he's going to take Benjamin and put him in prison, and he's going to let the brothers go. And he says, "You can go." He wants to see; will they leave their little brother behind? If they do,

Dave Runyon served as a pastor for nine years in the Denver area. In 2010 he launched a neighboring movement that mobilized over 70 churches and 40,000 people in the area, and then turned his experience into a book, The Art of Neighboring. Today he helps government, business, and faith leaders unite around common causes and helps businesses that have a desire to make a difference in their communities. Dave and his wife, Lauren, have four kids. Highlights 6:45 Introduction:Dave's background His experiences with members of the Church His own church experiences10:50 Service as a pastor and creating the neighboring movement 19:00 The block map quizAn activity to test yourself and work on The key to the neighboring movement22:20 Having mildly awkward conversations29:15 What neighboring is not; we do this not to convert, but because we are converted32:40 Tactics to minister instead of treating relationships as a program36:30 Reducing the anxiety in the relationship by bringing up the difficult questions38:00 Embracing getting out of your bubble with people who are different46:20 Where to start: putting neighboring into action48:00 Learning to move through anxiety in relationships as a leader Links Building Bridges Before Baptisms | How I Lead as Stake Public Affairs Specialist The Art of Ministering Through Neighboring | Facebook Live with Andrew Stewart The Art of Neighboring ArtofNeighboring.com Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community

Finding yourself in charge of planning, teaching, and organizing the Primary to put on a sacrament meeting program can be overwhelming! Thankfully, Leading Saints is here to help. In this episode we have gathered experiences from current and former Primary leaders from around the world sharing what they wish they knew before they were called to prepare and present the yearly program. You will find their advice inspiring and practical. Contribute Your Own WIWIK Experience In an effort to help others learn how to get from A to Z in preparing their Primary programs, we are organizing future podcast episodes that will feature current and past leaders sharing what they wish they knew before they were called.You will only have 5 minutes to record so write some thoughts on a paper and then record! How to record:Click the green button below Answer the following question in less than 5 minutes:What do you wish you knew before you were called to lead the Primary program? Start your answer with “Before I was called as _________, I wish I knew…”Stop recording Listen to recording and record again if you would like Enter name and email Submit recording by clicking “send”

Dave Ostler, who lives in Northern Virginia (Washington, D.C. metro area), was raised in Salt Lake City, served a mission in Japan, married in the temple, and was educated in the Eastern U.S. He and Sister Ostler have lived in New York, Minnesota, England, India, and Sierra Leone, Africa, where they presided over the Church’s mission until it was temporarily closed due to an Ebola outbreak. They subsequently served a mission (one of five for Brother Ostler) with a responsibility for historical sites in Palmyra. More recently they were asked by their stake presidency to explore the reasons some LDS members cease attending church or lose their faith. Brother Ostler has also served as a bishop and stake president. Now retired, he professionally developed research data to help people make better healthcare decisions. Highlights 3:00 Letter with survey link sent to 700 people asking why they don’t attend church. Conducted focus group and met in non-church setting before forming conclusions. Spoke with ward/stake leaders to ascertain their views. Recommended a training plan for the stake to address the survey findings.5:00 Solicited ward/stake leader views with 120 statements/questions. Analyzed 600 responses to compare leader assumptions to responses given by members who had left.6:27 Anecdotal examples of non-church goer reactions to the invitation to be surveyed.9:00 What survey recipients want church leaders to know. (Responses to an open-end question)12:00 Listen as Christ would listen. Don’t respond to fewer actives with an overly prescriptive approach. Avoid the tendency to “talk them into” returning to the fold.14:00 Faith “transition” (not “crisis”) perhaps has a less negative connotation for some who will transition to a more meaningful faith. Crisis often happens in a compressed time where something causes a person to lose all footing as to what they believe and can rely on. Leaders should avoid overly broad assumptions.21:45 Summary of common assumptions by leaders as to why people have fallen away, compared to what survey respondents said were their actual reasons. Do the assumptions about members being offended, having conflict with a fellow member or not wanting to live the commandments hold up under scrutiny?25:00 Discussion of “triggers” that prompt some to lose their faith foundation. What about church history, gender roles, transparency and LGBT issues? Respondents’ views vary by their age and gender.27:20 Making effective use of the “Gospel Topics” essays on the Church website to provide context and build trust. Some leaders have not read them. Does faith mean having the answers to everything?32:05 “Social” issues may fuel the fire of someone already in a faith crisis. Building a community of acceptance versus being dismissive. Does the content of church meetings reflect relevancy to help people develop a pathway forward? They want to be able to trust the institution, feel supported and find relevance. Are teachers/leaders tempted to respond to inquiries by testimony alone? Leader example.41:00 Protecting the doctrine while also showing empathy as a leader. Teach people, not lessons. Christ dined with the publicans. Are we more accepting of investigators than we are of members? A “culture of certainty” in congregations may, in some cases, diminish the reality of those who struggle.49:30 Dual nature of a bishop’s role—(a) pastoral and (b) organizational. In sacrament meetings is there a tendency to overuse certain themes at the expense of other relevant topics? Address the issue of faith struggles from the pulpit. Are teachers examples of inclusion or are people induced to form a “foyer ward?” Dealing with these issues in ward council and first-Sunday priesthood/relief society councils. Seeking to understand, not twist arms. Are female views (as opposed to mere affirmation/echo chambers) actively sought in stake/ward council meetings?

Jim Hastings is a bishop in Dallas, Texas. He and his wife have been married 23 years and have five children. About three years ago during the time he was serving as bishop, his 19-year-old daughter, Zoe, was kidnapped and murdered. In this interview, he talks about that experience and other experiences dealing with grief and tragedy as a bishop. Highlights 5:40 Personal background7:30 Calling as a bishop10:30 About his daughter, Zoe14:10 Narrative of his experience with Zoe's abduction and murder20:20 Personal reactions through the experience26:00 The days after28:35 Previous experience with losing his dad and coming to terms with death30:30 How he handled the emotional trauma; support and therapy experience34:30 Support needs from neighbors and ward members39:00 Forgiveness in a situation like this44:40 Serving as bishop during this experience49:35 Gratitude for the tools he was given to handle the experience52:15 Approaching individuals experiencing trials54:20 Using a bishop's checklist for funerals to support and help the family left behind1:00:00 The Savior can help us make connections between past experience and preparation for future experiences Links Troy and John Interview Bishop's checklist for helping with funerals

Last year I (Kurt) attended the Moral & Ethical Leadership Conference in Salt Lake City and left the conference inspired and feeling like a better-prepared leader. I am excited to attend again this year on September 14 in Salt Lake City, Utah and I'd love to meet you there.Be sure to listen to the attached podcast episode where David Austin, Vice President of the BYU Management Society Salt Lake Chapter, discusses the conference and what will be experienced there.To register for the conference visit: https://saltlake.byums.org/ (then click on the blue text on the right side of the page)***EARLY BIRD PRICING ENDS AUGUST 15 - ACT NOW!***Please let us know if you plan to attend the conference so that we can notify you of a special Leading Saints gathering that will happen in conjunction with the event. Conference SpeakersEvent DetailsTo register for the conference visit: https://saltlake.byums.org/ (then click on the blue text on the right side of the page)

Jody Moore is a life coach and is well-known for her podcast, Better Than Happy. Her background is in corporate training and leadership coaching, and she has a master's degree in Adult Education and Training. She is a Certified Coach through The Life Coach School and works primarily with women who want to move from good to great in their lives. She enjoys helping people navigate topics such as relationships, confidence, and money, and works to guide them with tools based in cognitive functioning, understanding their own brains, and how emotions drive us to action. Born & raised LDS, Jody followed her own journey to find her testimony. Her husband is her business partner and they live in Spokane, Washington, with their four children. Highlights 14:30 Advice for Bishops specifically related to LDS Women: the root of problems stems from not understanding their own value. Women tend to be harder on themselves.Love them All must be on their own journey to learn and understand worth Divide the doctrine from the culture of the church It's ok to feel negative emotions. “Opposition in all things”. Reading, studying scriptures are important but you will still feel sad, mad, etc. at times.18:45 What do we need to know about feelings to help us appreciate the journey.Unhealthy ways to deal with emotions:Resisting feelings – we do it, but it is not healthy Escaping feelings – we do it, but again not healthy (sugar, alcohol, shopping, pornography)Healthy response to feelings/emotions - just FEEL the emotion. Relax into the emotion, breathe into it. It’s ok to be sad, we need to learn to work through the emotions.23:00 Difference between Clean pain (loss) and Dirty pain (gossip, resentment, natural man) 25:00 Typical trends for women, her 5 pillars in coaching:Relationships – women get sense of joy and fulfillment from relationships Health – physical, mental & emotional health Money – healthy relationship with money Confidence – recognizing own value, requires practice Contribution – basic human need to contribute to society, sometimes with raising kids, others with workingAdvice for RS president to affect contribution: Ministering requires more spiritual maturity. Keep all “involved in the discussion”. Church seems a good model for contribution and fulfilment, but many are not fulfilled with this activity. Not “what am I doing” but “why am I doing it” will create feeling of fulfillment. Don’t resent what you are doing, life is too short. “People pleasers are liars.” How do we operate in full integrity. We need to work to get to a place where we “want” to do things that are asked. AND – it is ok to say no. Appreciate being asked, but it’s ok to say No. Find a loving reason to do things. Culture of the church is prescriptive, the Doctrine of the church is NOT. We need to be careful when we make decisions, that we are following the doctrine and less concerned about the culture.39:45 Advice for leaders to stimulate healthy Relationships:We are aware of people outside of us but we cannot control them. We can control ourselves. “Who do I want to be in this situation?” How do I feel about me when I think poorly of this other person? How do I want to feel? Realizing that we can’t be for everyone, but we can still show love46:20 Health – we are healthy in relation to the rest of the world. Culture of the church hangs on to the “no’s”, but we need to see individually what in our own lives is disconnecting me. 48:50 Money – helping people get to a more abundant mindset, realize all you have. It’s not about having more, but doing with what we have 52:20 Confidence – difference between pride and confidence. We are all equally valuable and we are always told “you are a child of God”. We need to believe that and have that relationship with ourselves. We need to speak to ourselves as we would speak to our sister. Don’t deflect.

Robert Millet, Ph.D., is an author, speaker, and professor of ancient scripture and emeritus Dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University. Author of 76 published works, Millet has been involved in BYU Education Week for many years and is well-known as a commentator on the BYUTV Scripture Discussions program. He is also Manager of Outreach and Interfaith Relations for the LDS Church's Public Affairs Department. Highlights 6:45 Experiences with the scripture discussion series on KBYU10:00 Teaching and administrative experience at BYU11:45 His experience writing 77 books13:30 What led him to write The Atoning One and the growth of a Christ-conscious movement in the LDS Church24:30 Teaching doctrine in Sunday School29:00 Importance of knowledgeable teachers31:45 Creating an environment where class members feel safe to be vulnerable37:30 The leader’s role in correcting doctrine and creating safety at church43:00 The Atonement and grace in the Bishop’s office44:00 The Bishop should always be teaching kindly45:00 The Bishop as a channel for God’s grace53:00 Teach what the steps of repentance mean and give study assignments55:30 Bring closure to the individual58:15 Don’t take the fast track to repentance1:01:30 Leadership offers the opportunity to see others as the Lord sees them Links BYUTV Scripture Discussions The Atoning OneImage: LDS Living/Deseret Book

Erin Tanner lives in Cortez, Colorado, and is the mother of three children. She served a mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Along with being a youth leader she has been a presenter at Especially For Youth for three summers. Highlights 4:49 Youth come hungry to learn the gospel. 5:17 Data shows testimony growth is attributed most to four years of seminary and second to that was attendance at EFY. 7:19 EFY happens through the Church Education System. It is held throughout the country at various locations. 7:46 They have different varieties of EFY such as, outdoor, humanitarian, and adventure for youth. 8:43 Leaders could become familiar with EFY options and help encourage youth to attend the one that is best for them. 8:51 EFY has a scholarship program to help cover some of the cost. 11:07 Young Women Ideas: Harry Potter Young Women in Excellence theme, and a Harry Potter New Beginnings. 12:31 Be a window. Have the youth leave knowing their Heavenly Father loves them instead of thinking their leader is cool. 16:20 Pull back and be intentional. 17:50 Teaching with object lessons. 19:04 Have fun with the youth and allow fun to happen. 26:46 Be a useful instrument. You don’t have to do it all and be all. Look to those around you for help. 29:29 Fill your mind with truth. Turn to the scriptures, podcasts, and conference talks. 33:02 Let the scriptures wash over you. 33:46 Teach true doctrine. 40:46 Help the youth learn where to go to find answers. Teach clear doctrine. 41:46 Use Pinterest to log ideas and customize them for your young women. 48:43 Be authentic and genuine. Be a follower of Christ. Links Especially For Youth The Divine Center, by Stephen Covey YW in Excellence Value Pageant YW in Excellence and New Beginnings w/ a Harry Potter theme

Destiny Yarbro is the author of Home Early Now What?: How to Navigate Coming Home Early from a Mission and maintains a related website with resources for early returned missionaries. She served in the Hungary, Budapest mission but had to return home early and recognized the universal struggle of missionaries whose missions were cut short for whatever reason. Destiny grew up in Prescott, Arizona, and lives there now. Highlights 02:15 Background and mission experience 16:30 The ward and stake follows the example of the Bishop: Treat them like any other missionary coming home — 18:30 When transgression is involved, coming home is the first step forward — 21:45 Importance of the first Sunday home — 24:15 Finding some way to keep them involved — 25:45 Discussing the return announcement with the missionary — 26:15 Examples 27:45 Meeting with parents/family prior to the missionary's return to offer suggestions and support 34:15 Meeting with the early returned missionary immediately and often — 36:30 Healing suggestions for the missionary — 38:30 "Normal" experiences and universal need for professional counseling — 40:30 Worries about people they didn't teach 41:15 Addressing the question of returning to the mission... or not — 42:15 Different mission options: online and young church service missionaries — 44:15 Approaching the subject with the missionary — 45:30 Dealing with change from serving to being the subject of attention 47:15 Points for the ward council and ward members 50:15 Mission Fortify recommendation 51:00 Advice for early returned missionaries 51:45 The Atonement takes difficulties and turns them into opportunities to serve others Links Home Early Now What?: How to Navigate Coming Home Early from a Mission Earlyrm.com LDS.org: Young Church Service Missionaries Mission Fortify: firesides and online support Written Transcript Kurt Francom (LS): Today we're talking with Destiny Yarbro. How are you, Destiny?Destiny Yarbro: Doing well, thanks Kurt.LS: Awesome. Now, what does the Leading Saints audience need to know about you and what led you to be a guest on this podcast?Destiny Yarbro: Well, I grew up in a small town. I wanted to go on a mission for a long time and when I finally got the opportunity (06:00) to go things went very differently than I planned, I had to come home early for health reasons and thankfully I was able to go back out, but I was only able to go back out for another three or four months. And then I had to come home again. So, I got that experience twice.LS: So, take us back to when you opened up your call. Where did you expect to go or want to go? Any inclination one way or the other and then where did you end up going?Destiny Yarbro: I wanted to go anywhere, but, I hope this doesn't offend (06:30) anyone, but except for Albuquerque. Good people in Albuquerque, but for some reason that's the place I didn't want to go. So, when I opened my call, and I opened it by myself because I was convinced I was going to Albuquerque and I needed some time to process. So, I opened up my call by myself and it was to the Budapest, Hungary Mission and it blew me away. I did not expect that at all.LS: So where were you living at this time when you opened the call?Destiny Yarbro: I was living in Arizona (07:00), but I was on the steps of the St. George Temple at about 11:00 at night. Anyway. It was great!LS: And so, there's no reason or there was not a specific prompting you had that you thought Albuquerque, but nonetheless you convinced yourself that-Destiny Yarbro: I mean, you always hear those stories of those people who go to places they didn't want to go, I guess that became the reason why I thought I was going to Albuquerque. Yup.LS: Then you went to the Provo MTC, I assume.Destiny Yarbro: Yup, Provo MTC. We were in the impossible language hallway. That's what we called it. (07:30) The Hallway that you're just there forever learning your la...

Do you remember the first month you were called as a bishop? Trying to get organized. Trying to learn names. Trying to figure out how to lead. Here is the first episode of many that will feature short clips of past and current bishops sharing their go-to advice for new bishops. Contribute Your Own WIWIK Experience In an effort to help other bishops gain some quick leadership experience on day 1, we are organizing future podcast episodes that will feature many current and past bishops sharing what they wish they knew before they were called as bishop.You will only have 5 minutes to record so write some thoughts on a paper and then record! How to record:Click the green button below Answer the following question in less than 5 minutes:What do you wish you knew before you were elders quorum president? Start your answer with “Before I was elders quorum president I wish I knew…”Stop recording Listen to recording and record again if you would like Enter name and email Submit recording by clicking “send”The transcript for this episode will be available in a few days.

Nate Checketts is the Co-Founder & CEO of Rhone, a premium men’s activewear company founded in 2014. Prior to Rhone, Nate worked for and consulted with some of the biggest technology and entertainment properties in the world including Cisco, The National Football League, Legends, FanVision and Sport Radar, and serves on the board of Veritone. Nate is also an avid entrepreneur who founded and launched 4 companies before the age of 30, including Rhone and Mangia Technologies, whose patents were later acquired by the San Francisco 49ers. Nate graduated from Brigham Young University with a BA in Finance. He and his wife Dayna reside in Connecticut with their three young boys, Gabriel, William, and Nicholas. He has served in a bishopric and as an Elders Quorum president and is currently serving as an early-morning seminary teacher. Highlights In this wide-ranging interview, Brother Checketts discusses principles of leadership that he uses daily in his church service as well as in the business world including:(16:00) How can we have an impact in our callings/positions? How can we create positive change? —Getting past the administration and focusing on helping those we serve feel like we love and care about them and helping them feel and recognize the spirit —Looking to other great leaders as examples(23:30) The importance of genuine empathy for those within our stewardship(28:30) Conducting one-on-one interviews —Asking what’s on their minds – starting with their concerns —Being clear about expectations prior to the meeting(30:15) Importance of building relationships of trust(31:00) Leading with love Links Rhone.com The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey Alexander Hamilton, by Ron Chernow John Adams, by David McCullough

Brooke Romney is a freelance writer, speaker, and blogger about motherhood and life in general, and writes monthly for the Deseret News. She served as a Relief Society president when she was a young mother in Arizona. After living in several locations around the United States, she currently resides near Salt Lake City, Utah, with her husband and four boys. Highlights 2:45 Writing for the Deseret News —3:20 Being a friend instead of just being friendly —3:50 Being a stonecatcher —6:50 Mistakes and difficulties don't equal failure 10:40 Calling as a young Relief Society president 12:00 Involving everyone in activities Leadership Principles: —18:00 Utilizing the talents of others —20:00 Learning from the experience of others —21:30 Harnessing your own abilities 24:40 Advice for handling welfare situations 28:00 Reaching out to nonmembers 34:00 Relationships are key 37:40 Jesus calls leaders because he needs someone to take care of people Links BrookeRomney.com Brooke's Deseret News articles Facebook: Brooke Romney Writes Twitter: @BrookeoRomney Pinterest: Brookerom Instagram: @brookeromneywrites

Joseph Benson served as mission president in the Mongolia Ulaanbaatar mission from 2013-2016. He and his wife Heidi are the parents of five (almost six) children and both served as young missionaries in the Mongolia Ulaanbaatar mission; Joseph in 1996-1998 and Heidi in 1999-2001. They met when they both taught Mongolian at the missionary training center in Provo. Just after they were married, they spent a year in China, where Joseph completed a Fulbright fellowship, studying Chinese and Chinese history. Later, Joseph practiced patent law in Southern California for many years before taking a job with a San Diego based Real Estate Company, which transferred their family to Singapore. Joseph was called as a mission president at the young age of 35. As a mission president, he was a leader of the people in Mongolia as well as the missionaries. His experience presented unique challenges in a growing area of the church.Highlights 3:00 President Benson's experience as a young missionary in 1996 7:00 How the church and country was different in Mongolia in 2013 9:20 Restrictions on missionary proselytizing in Mongolia 12:35 Called to serve as a mission president at the age of 35/meeting with President Russell M. Nelson 17:00 Previous experience/inexperience in callings in the church previous to being a mission president 18:00 Experience in Mongolia as mission president 21:00 Use of church handbook in leadership 23:30 Using church handbook to train leaders 30:00 Welfare assistance in Mongolia 32:00 Advice to implementing church self-reliance program 35:15 Secret to missionary work 40:00 Importance of scripture study 45:00 Preparation for zone conference 51:00 Advice for leaders in growing areas of the church 53:30 Elder Rasband's visit to Mongolia 55:00 Focusing on individuals/ minister first and the administration and procedure aid in your endeavors 58:30 Advice to those preparing to serve missions- D&C 11 & chapter 2 and 3 of Preach my Gospel

Steven M. R. Covey is the son of Steven R. Covey of “7 Habits of Highly Effective People” and co-founder of Covey Link and the Franklin Covey Global Speed of Trust practice. He is a highly sought-after and compelling keynote speaker and advisor on trust, ethics, sales, and high performance, and speaks to audiences around the world. He is also the New York Times and #1 Wall Street Journal best-selling author of “The Speed of Trust", which teaches 13 Behaviors of High Trust Leaders. This is a groundbreaking, paradigm-shifting book that challenges the assumption that trust is merely a soft social virtue, demonstrating that it is instead a hard-edge economic driver. Trust is a learnable skill that makes organizations more profitable, people more promotable and relationships more energizing. Highlights 3:19 What it was like growing up in the Covey home and how the principles his father was teaching in the marketplace were first taught in the home. Things like “green & clean”, “listen first”. The principles in the book were for the marketplace but were started at home with his family. They were the guinea pigs of “7 habits”.4:40 How he started on the business side but shifted career path to current leadership roles5:20 Not one thing that lead to “trust” as his focus, but many different things that lead to that.There is a high cost to low trust Trust is learnable Trust is not just a good thing, and social thing but it is a multiplier and key to leadership. All things are better with trust. Trust and love are critical, you can love and not trust but it is best to have both. It is better to be trusted than loved. (David O McKay) Love is critical. It applies to everything, business, church, marriage, every level of human interaction.10:40 “Fish are the last ones to discover water.” How to determine amount of trust when we are called to a position. We need to be intentional, not just use position power, but rely on credibility, influence, trust. Seek best interest of others.12:50 Positions may not come with trust. Description of low trust tax, that may confer to us from prior leaders, as well as low trust dividend.14:00 Trust is built through our credibility and behavior:Credibility: character trust (integrity, intent, care, more about others well-being, showing we care) and competence trust (current, learning, performance, do what we say) Behavior – how we do whatever we do, we want to model behavior that builds trust We want leaders that care, and are very competent as well. We don’t have to be perfect, we have to be willing23:00 We need to look in the mirror and see how we are doing with trust.24:10 How do we help those who have a deficit of trust – first look inward. How do I focus on my credibility, my confidence?Declare intent – what you are doing and why. Extend trust to others, people will return the trust. There is a risk. We are good at understanding trustworthiness, but not always good at understanding the importance of extending trust – trust others. The quickest way to make someone trustworthy, is to extend trust to them.28:50 Don’t treat people according to their behavior, treat them according to their potential. They will rise to that trust.29:30 Behaviors that build trust:Extend Trust – make sure they know you “trust” them to fulfill their calling Clarify Expectations Practice Accountability33:45 “To be trusted in the most inspiring form of human motivation”. It brings out the best in people. Less micro-management and better trust returned to you.34:45 Our positions/hierarchy type leadership need to be changed to a leadership of trust & inspire. If we trust people, they will perform better37:30 Two more behaviors identified:Council – should be collaborative -- listen first, try to understand, and reflect that you are trying to understand. Not judging, not agreeing, not disagreeing, just listening.

Raised in Seattle and presently living in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, Dr. Glover is a psychotherapist, author, former minister and recovering “Mr. Nice Guy.” He is a frequent talk-show guest who has been featured in various publications and is the author of No More Mr. Nice Guy. In this podcast, he describes the pitfalls sometimes associated with men trying to be Mr. Nice Guy. Highlights 4:45 Dr. Glover’s experience working with LDS men 6:20 How co-dependence relates to Mr. Nice Guy syndrome 8:50 Three characteristics/covert contracts of Mr. Nice Guy: (1) If I’m a good guy I’ll be liked and loved—my value comes from external sources; (2) If I meet other people’s needs without them asking they’ll meet my needs without my having to ask; (3) If I do everything right I will have a problem-free life. 15:00 How to determine if you are a Mr. Nice Guy. Nice-guy behaviors in marriage and at work. 17:08 Root causes of Nice Guy syndrome in boys and men, and the development of survival mechanisms. 22:30 Organizational and family culture impacts leading to Mr. Nice Guy. “Emotional fusion.” Truly accepting a belief system versus merely following rules. 27:55 How can youth leaders teach correct principles and value systems without seemingly asking for compliance with rules for the mere sake of compliance? Authoritarianism versus making allowance for pushback or inquiry. 32:20 What can a bishop do if he perceives someone is suffering from Nice-Guy syndrome? Connecting with other imperfect people. Teaching the value of growth people achieve by coping with challenges. 38:15 Nice guys becoming chameleons can be detrimental to being true to one’s self. Can the syndrome lead to interest in porn or other addictions? 44:06 The title of the book No More Mr. Nice Guy is not intended to suggest men should not be nice. They should be nice but need to know when to say “no,” while saying “yes” to the most important things, including family. Looking to the example of Christ. 53:25 Conclusion Links Dr. Glover's Website Buy Dr. Glover's Book No More Mr. Nice Guy Self-Assessment

Ross Trewhella has served as bishop of the Redruth ward in the Plymouth, England stake for nine years. He is from Cornwall, England, and joined the LDS Church while living in Utah. Ross is best known online as @ldsbishop on Twitter, where he offers up humorous insights into the role as part of the #twitterstake. Highlights 03:05 @ldsbishop and being a bishop for 9 years 10:35 The church in his area of the UK; going to the temple 14:05 His conversion story 21:55 Called as ward executive secretary: serving in a Christ-like manner firms up your testimony 23:40 Called as a counselor in the bishopric and then as bishop 27:20 Being bishop to the previous bishop, and characteristics of his ward 29:45 Ministering: Being good at looking after each other 31:05 Minimizing meetings and using technology to communicate as a bishopric 33:55 Ward service efforts for shelters, homeless charity, and food bank 35:25 Leadership principle #1: Keep a sense of humor 38:10 Leadership principle #2: Have skin as thick as a rhino 41:25 Leadership principle #3: Don’t procrastinate 43:45 Leadership principle #4: Listen more than you speak 47:30 Leadership principle #5: Let people serve and forgive them when they mess up 51:05 Managing callings and giving autonomy 53:45 Being open to different opinions and transcending culture and categories 1:03:45 Seeing people as Christ sees them Links @ldsbishop on Twitter #twitterstake on Twitter Signal app

Mamie Kanfer Stewart founded her first business at the age of 12 and her entrepreneurial spirit combined with the desire to optimize how people work led Mamie to build Meeteor, whose mission is to enable individuals and teams to thrive at work, with a special emphasis on effective meetings. Mamie is a dynamic speaker and has presented at numerous events and been interviewed on a variety of podcasts. She has been featured in Forbes, Inc, Business Collective, and PCMag, and writes about productivity, healthy team culture, and meeting best practices. She is also a nationally syndicated columnist and national media personality and the author of “Momentum: Creating Effective, Engaging and Enjoyable Meetings”. Highlights (8:30) Common meeting challenges #1: Meetings that don’t have a clear purpose“I don’t know why we’re having this meeting” and “I don’t know why I’m at this meeting” (11:35) How to create a clear purposeCreate a desired outcome – “I want the outcome of this meeting to be….” Detailed agenda helps to see if meeting is leading to desired outcome (agenda is created from desired outcome) (19:20) At beginning of the meeting or subsection of meeting, state the desired outcome(22:30) Six kinds of meeting types:Make a decision Create a plan Generate ideas Align people’s understanding (different than sharing information) Connect (building relationships) Produce(24:25) Common Meeting Challenges #2: How meetings end and what happens afterRecord of the decisions made and next steps (stated and written) Make record easy for everyone to access (34:00) Meetings are a cycleDecisions and next steps coming out of one meeting may become part of the desired outcome of the next meeting Helps people get out of the mindset that meetings are discrete isolated events (37:15) Importance of reviewing and revisiting meeting notes(42:00) Engaging meeting participants as a meeting leader (45:00) Best practices for avoiding meetings that should be emailsCould this outcome be achieved by another form of collaboration?(50:00) Creating space in a meeting for private reflection time (51:00) “Norms” – ground rules or expectations for how the conversation/meeting is going to be runLinks Momentum: Creating Effective, Engaging, and Enjoyable Meetings, by Mamie Kanfer Stewart Successful Meetings Start with Why Advance Your Meeting Conversation with Norms 5 Practices to Make Every Meeting Matter www.mamieks.com On Twitter at: @mamieks www.meeteor.com 7 Unbreakable Rules of Church Meetings, by Leading Saints

Whitney Johnson is an expert on disruptive innovation and personal disruption, recognized as one of the 50 leading business thinkers in the world. She is a writer, speaker, consultant and coach on innovation initiatives for leaders. Her book, “Build an ‘A’ Team: Play to Their Strengths and Lead Them Up the Learning Curve” is the leadership handbook to accompany her previous book, “Disrupt Yourself: Putting the Power of Disruptive Innovation to Work”. Whitney served a mission in Uruguay and currently serves as a Laurel adviser. She and her husband live in Massachusetts and have two children. Highlights 06:20 Background of the book, “Build an ‘A’ Team” 07:30 It’s people who disrupt, not organizations, and when people are learning something new they are innovative and drive disruption innovation within their organization 08:20 Protesters who demand change vs. people who drive change 11:00 Being a leader means having humility and allowing others to have their own revelation 12:50 Applying the S curve to learning in church callings 18:00 The importance of engagement 22:50 Personal engagement fatigue and church callings 24:30 Comparing where we are today to our past 26:00 Is the life of someone we serve better because of what we have done? 28:15 Repetition and change 29:00 Changing the job description to what is needed now 31:30 Choosing leaders by who they are on the inside, choosing people for potential and what really needs to be done 35:30 The learning curves of people in a calling Links Previous Leading Saints interview with Whitney: Disrupting Your Calling WhitneyJohnson.com Whitney's books: Build an “A” Team: Play to Their Strengths and Lead Them Up the Learning Curve Disrupt Yourself: Putting the Power of Disruptive Innovation to Work Dare, Dream, Do: Remarkable Things Happen when you Dare to Dream

Cydney Afton Hatch is a polka-dot-wearing business owner, photographer, cupcake enthusiast and recently-turned writer, who through her work shares her personal experience with divorce and encourages others to rebuild their lives, redefine their relationship with God, and find peace.As a lifelong member of the church and always having a gift for finding and creating beauty, her biggest challenge was finding beauty in the aftermath of her divorce. Through her faith in Christ, she has found that even in the challenges of life there is beauty in the struggle. Turning to faith with patience, many tears, a big dose of laughter, and creativity, Cydney embraced her unexpected life and found beauty even in her struggles.Raised in the nation’s capital of Washington D.C., Cydney owns Afton Photography where her work has been featured in major publications including Cosmopolitan, The Hill, The Washington Post, and Minted. She received a bachelors of History from Brigham Young University-Idaho, has worked with the Boys & Girls Clubs of America, and currently works for Disruptive Advertising. She resides in Utah. Episode Highlights 4:15 Married in 2011 & divorced after 3 years 6:45 Peace about letting go of her marriage 7:30 How she sought help for her marriage 8:00 Going to see the bishop Talk about it—there needs to be more discussion in the church about divorce 12:45 Cydney’s decision to go to the bishop 17:00 The need for resources for single parenting & divorce in the church 22:15 What resources can help someone who is divorced feel love & stay active in the church 24:00 Divorce members need to be involved 26:00 The grieving process of divorce 31:45 Rock bottom is from where we rebuild 34:00 How bishops can help through & after divorce 38:30 Normalizing divorce in the church 40:00 How to include divorced members 43:30 Cydney’s journey since her divorce 45:15 How can a YSA bishop encourage a divorced member Links When Eternity is Not Forever wheneternityisnotforever.com Instagram: @wheneternityisnotforever Twitter: @WhenEternity Facebook: When Eternity is Not Forever

Murat Chakir is a pioneer for the LDS Church in his native country, Turkey. He joined the church while studying in Norway, served a mission to Arizona, completed his education at Brigham Young University, and then returned to Turkey where he served as branch president. He currently serves in the mission presidency of the Central Eurasian Mission, which includes Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkey, and Uzbekistan. Episode Highlights 4:55 Personal faith development before joining the church 10:00 School in Norway and discovery of Jesus Christ as more than a prophet 14:30 Meeting the LDS missionaries 16:00 Gaining a testimony of Jesus Christ as a truth-seeker from a Muslim background 18:20 Experiencing the Spirit through the missionaries 19:20 Joining the LDS Church 21:40 Gaining a testimony of a living prophet 23:20 Choosing to go on a mission 24:45 Mission to Arizona and resolution of passport issues 31:30 Working on Book of Mormon translation while at BYU 33:30 Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon compared to translating it into Turkish 35:00 Discovery of 1903 translation by Armenian missionaries; no animosity between nations within the gospel 39:50 Creating the Turkish name for the church 43:40 Return to Turkey and building the church there, from Babylon Street to Dove Street 47:30 Dedication of building by Elder Christofferson 48:25 Experiences as a branch president in a developing area with great challenges, and creation of website that brought in referrals 53:50 Muslim perspective of Christians in Turkey 54:35 Elder Holland quote about his experience dedicating Turkey 56:15 Growth of the church in Turkey 57:15 Attending the temple from Turkey 58:05 Continuing goals and efforts to reach truth-seekers and grow the church 59:50 Being part of a mission presidency over a large area with few members 1:02:00 Suggestions for struggling branch presidents: minister like Christ did 1:04:10 Using technology to create missionary experiences and conversions 1:07:50 We need to be out and listening to the people 1:08:25 Pray for the saints in Turkey, where ancient saints lived Links http://www.mormonum.org/

DeAnna Murphy is a leadership consultant, coach, facilitator, and speaker, and the founder/CEO of Strengths Strategy Inc. and its affiliate, People Acuity, where she consults businesses, coaches, and individuals. She was born in Provo, Utah, but grew up in Canada, and met her husband at Ricks College. They had three children and live in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where she has served as Stake Relief Society President. Highlights 5:25 How do we help ourselves and others stay fully engaged? 7:35 How can you understand your auxiliaries strength? 8:10 How can we apply engagement at home? 8:35 To be meaningfully engaged there must be a sense of connection, and an ability to understand your contribution and purpose alignment. 12:00 Understand your role/purpose 12:45 What is the bigger “why”? 14:00 Doctrine and Covenants 43:8,9 The Lord teaches Joseph Smith by council 15:20 Ask good questions/teach by council 19:30 Get correct counsel on core principles. 22:20 To feel alignment while teaching ask: What did you notice about that? What's important about that? What does that mean? What will you do? (How would you apply that?) Has anyone had an experience like that? 24:15 John 17- Why does He want us to be one so badly? That my joy might be fulfilled in you. 28:35 Which of these points in the lesson are important to Heavenly Father? 30:45 The council creates interdependence. 32:20 There is no engagement from a talking head. 33:20 Co-dependence is the primary voice of us vs. them. 34:15 There should not a be a “you people” in our church culture. 36:20 Our value does not go up and down like the stock market. 38:15 When people begin to see their value through the lens of strength they see God's DNA in them. 39:00 We need to understand our identity, but have lost it 41:50 If I'm not judging myself, I feel connected to other people and to God 42:10 Four categories of strengths Strategic Thinking Executing Relationship driven —Influencers —Relationship-builders 50:30 We are drawn to those like us because they validate us, and afraid of those who are unlike us because we do not understand them. 53:45 We disengage when our needs are not being met. 54:30 What does my patriarchal blessing show me about my strengths? 57:40 What can you count on me for? What do I need to feel confident? 59:00 The power of one-on-one ministering 1:00:00 During one-on-one interviews, pull up an extra chair for the Savior to sit with you as you minister 1:00:50 Be okay with no knowing, and always pray with them. 1:01:25 During the interviews ask them: How are you doing? What are you learning from the Spirit in your personal study? What are you learning in your assignment? These questions create connection. 1:05:00 Finally, ask tell me about the people that you are serving and what do they need? 1:06:15 Everyone is a "one" and there is great power in ministering and one-on-one interviews. 1"06:55 Ask your children—even grown children—what the Spirit is teaching them. 1:09:00 Experience with a group in Abu Dhabi learning six strengths strategies. 1:16:45 Read Moses 1:6 with your name instead of Moses: He will magnify your gifts through Him Links Print version of Shift Up!: Strengths Strategies for Optimal Living Ebook version of Shift Up!: Strengths Strategies for Optimal Living PeopleAcuity.com DeAnna's How I Lead interview: Mentoring Relief Society Presidents Through Love Claiming Your Contribution (for missionaries) Gallup StrengthsFinder (CliftonStrengths Assessment)

Born in Brazil and raised in Utah, David Neeleman is an entrepreneur who has founded or co-founded five commercial airlines: Morris Air, WestJet, JetBlue, Azul Brazilian Airlines and TAP Air Portugal. Morris Air was acquired by Southwest Air in 1993. David served a mission in Brazil as a young adult and speaks Portuguese. He and his wife have ten children, including one they adopted in recent years. The Neelemans have 18 grandchildren. David was featured in The Mormon Way of Doing Business and in Flying High. Episode Highlights 1:00: Undistinguished academic background in high school and University of Utah. Has ADD. Served LDS mission during period of explosive church growth in Brazil in the late 1970’s. Sold Morris Air to Southwest when he was 33 years of age. Wanted to remain passionately involved in something of value and not simply be an investor. Highlights of his involvement with the airlines referenced above. 5:40: Impact of serving a mission and the necessity of faith combined with works. Witnessed the area of Brazil where he served grow from five branches to five stakes in a very short time. 7:18: Father of a large family. Advice he gives his kids as they go to serve missions: lose yourself, don’t think about home excessively and love the people. 9:20: Missionary success began to shape his life. Invented e-ticket travel and in-home reservations by people who are working from home. Is wired to see things differently and attempt what no one else has done before without being discouraged by naysayers. Being entrepreneurial requires making sacrifices. 12:48: ADD discussed, including the fact that children in same family can be very different from one another. Proper encouragement is needed. Some great business leaders have suffered from ADD. Street wisdom about A, B, C and D students. 15:58: How the egalitarian structure of the Church has affected his business approach to dealing with employees and providing customer service. His thoughts about executive lunch rooms and parking spaces. Impact of satisfied employees on customer base. Discussion about pleasing employees vs shareholders. 21:00: Establishing a healthy culture by leadership style in Church organizations. Helping people feel fulfilled and loved, not guilty. Prayerful thought is required. 22:40: Establishing and leading by values. JetBlue’s values. Breaking the china when necessary. 25:45: Serving as ward mission leader for about eight years in New Cambridge, CT. 26:25: More on vision and values—what would Jesus do in setting the tone in Church organizations. Church service a respite from the “belly of the beast” all week long. Keeping values at the forefront. 29:00: Making time for family, not golf. LDS leavening influenced is needed in the world. People respond to leadership that is inspired by gospel principles even if it’s not presented as such. 33:00: David’s preferences for books, especially books about world progress and development more than books about leadership. Some favorites, other than religious, are: Outliers, David and Goliath, Tipping Point, Accidental Superpower and books about founding fathers of the U.S.A. 35:20: Founding the More Good Foundation. Helping maintain a positive image for the Church. Buying URL’s so that people on search engines have positive encounters online regarding the Church. 41:22: Being a better follower of Christ by learning to know Him and gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Don’t get caught up in the “noise.” The Lord needs LDS people to lead in society and business. LinksThe Mormon Way of Doing Business Outliers David and Goliath Tipping Point Accidental Superpower The More Good Foundation

Nola & Mike Patterson have been married for more than 26 years. Originally from the Alberta, Canada area, they now make their home in Las Vegas, Nevada. Brother Patterson has served in various callings, including Young Men presidencies, as an Elders Quorum President, in bishoprics, and as a bishop. He currently serves as an early-morning seminary teacher. Sister Patterson has served as a Young Women’s President and Relief Society President, among other responsibilities.Brother and Sister Patterson have found success in their leadership responsibilities as they have focused on ministering to individuals and families not well known to the ward and creating opportunities for those individuals to participate and serve. They have also focused on finding others to assist them in these efforts, realizing that there was only so much they could do on their own.In this episode of How I Lead, Brother and Sister Patterson discuss with Kurt their approach to reaching out and helping those who need ministering to.Leadership Principle #1: Focus on Ministering (19:00) Leadership Principle #2: Be respectful of people’s time (37:45) Leadership Principle #3: Do what you can and then let go (46:40) Leadership Principle #4: Seeking out those who are under utilized (52:30)

Interview Transcript Available BelowAdam McHugh is a spiritual director, chaplain, speaker, and retreat leader. The author of Introverts in the Church: Finding Our Place in an Extroverted Culture, he is an ordained Presbyterian minister, having earned a Masters of Divinity and Masters of Theology in Greek New Testament from Princeton Theological Seminary. He is also the author of The Listening Life: Embracing Attentiveness in a World of Distraction, and lives in Santa Barbara, California. Episode Highlights 4:30 Becoming an ordained minister 7:30 What led to writing Introverts in the Church 10:50 Explanation of introversion and extroversion 16:00 Problems that introverts experience at church 19:00 Understanding the discomfort of personal vulnerability and sharing beliefs as an expression of faith 22:00 Introverts generally prefer depth over breadth 24:00 The power of listening: experience at a hospital 30:00 Introverts and small talk 34:00 How introverts approach dealing with conflict and decisions 40:00 Silence, reverence, and the internal experience compared to active social environments 45:20 Cultural clash of introvert and extrovert leaders: overcoming stereotypes and encouraging introverts to be leaders 48:50 Reaching out to invite introverts to participate LinksAdam's Website Introverts in the Church: Finding Our Place in an Extroverted Culture The Listening Life: Embracing Attentiveness in a World of DistractionInterview Transcript LS: Today we are communicating with Adam McHugh in California. How are you, Adam?ADAM: Doing very well. How about yourself?LS: Very good. Did I say your last name correctly?ADAM: You got it.LS: All right. Very nice, very nice. Now, you are, tell us (00:04:00) a little bit about what we need about know about you. The big thing I guess on this podcast we generally have LDS or Mormons on as guests, but you are not a Mormon. So what are you?ADAM: It is true. I am an ordained Presbyterian minister. Though in truth I go to an Episcopal church.LS: Nice.ADAM: But I was ordained in the Presbyterian church about 12 years ago.LS: Nice. And so what is the, when you say you're ordained, (00:04:30) what does that mean? Does that mean you went to seminary for awhile or what does that even mean?ADAM: It means they made me jump through about a thousand hoops, is basically what that means. I went to Princeton theological seminary and that is required for ordination, not Princeton. But going to seminary, getting a master's of divinity. I also stuck around for another year and got a masters of theology and Greek New Testament as well and had to do 2 church internships and one internship at a hospital as a chaplain, was actually (00:05:00) very instrumental in my future calling. And yeah. And then I had to go to about a thousand meetings in order to get approved.LS: Wow. Wow. Intense.ADAM: It was a, I would never do it again. I'm glad I was young when I went through all that because now it sounds exhausting.LS: So does that mean, I mean, your day to day or are you some type of pastor to a church or what's your day to day job now?ADAM: I have the title now, you know, writer and speaker and retreat leader (00:05:30) is really how I identify myself and certainly connected to churches and all that. So certified spiritual director as well, but I don't have a formal preaching ministry or not working full time.LS: And is that the typical path for someone who's gone through the different education you've gone to, that they end up with, some, running some type of a church orADAM: Usually or else, you know, working as a chaplain of some kind, which I did for a few years. But generally, you know, a Presbyterian minister is going (00:06:00) to be a minister at a particular church and you're, it's not like other denominations where you move around from church to church, you sort of stay in one place and you're hired more like a ...

Gail Miller is the owner and chair of the board of directors of the Larry H. Miller group of companies, which includes 65 car dealerships, the Utah Jazz basketball team, Utah Bees baseball team, a chain of movie theatres, and related businesses. She is also a mother, a former Relief Society president, and the author of “Courage to Be You: Inspiring Lessons from an Unexpected Journey”. Episode Highlights1:45 How the book came to be 6:15 Gail’s service experience as a Relief Society president 10:55 Coming back from inactivity in the church 16:40 Saying the right thing to those who are grieving 18:10 Developing yourself as the spouse of a leader 20:55 Patience as the wife of a busy entrepreneur and as a woman in the church 25:00 Making decisions as a leader 27:30 Stewardship and serviceLinks Courage to Be You: Inspiring Lessons from an Unexpected Journey

Interview Transcript Available BelowTom Christofferson is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who experiences same sex attraction. He is also the brother of Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Tom grew up in the church as a member, served a mission and married in the temple. His short marriage ended and he came out as gay and lived that lifestyle for many years. He started coming back to church with Bruce Larson as a bishop and David Checketts as his stake president. Tom's story is told in his book, That We May Be One: A Gay Mormon’s Perspective on Faith and Family. As leaders we can learn a lot from his experience of coming back to church and being rebaptized. Episode Highlights6:30 Tom's story from the beginning 9:30 His story of excommunication 10:50 How his family wanted their love to be perfect as they accepted him 13:20 Bishop Bruce Larson's side of the story 16:00 Stake President David Checkett's side of the story 18:00 Bishop Larson and President Checketts did not know at first that he was related to Elder Christofferson 20:30 Sharing with the ward coucnil how to make feel Tom welcome 22:30 Response of the ward council 24:00 Tom was welcomed and loved unconditionally 29:00 Tom attended the ward for 5 years before wanting to come back to live the commandments 31:45 During the 5 years how Tom felt welcome in the ward 33:20 Everyone focused on the the relationship with Tom and not his progress 34:30 Study sessions with Tom and President Checketts 38:00 Meeting with Tom's partner 42:00 President Checketts meets with Elder Christofferson about Tom 45:00 Tom Christofferson's rebaptism 48:00 How this experience has helped Bishop Larson to be a better disciple of Jesus Christ 50:00 How this experience has helped President Checketts to be a better disciple of Jesus ChristLinks That We May Be One: A Gay Mormon’s Perspective on Faith and FamilyRegister for the North Star Leadership SessionPresident David Checketts (far left) and the Christofferson brothers Interview Transcript LS: [00:02:30] Welcome back to the leading LDS podcast. My name is Kurt Francom and today I have the opportunity to be in beautiful downtown Salt Lake City with and really, I'm across the world and we'll explain that in just a minute. But, let's start with you, Tom. I'm in the home of Tom Christofferson. How are you?Tom: Very well, thank you. Thanks for joining us.LS: Yeah, well, I'm excited to have this opportunity. And, mainly this interview came to be as you release your book, "That We May Be One, a Gay Mormons Perspective on Faith and Family" and you've been on the interview circuit for that.Tom: It's been an interesting journey.LS: I bet it's been very fulfilling to share your faith through, through this method.Tom: It has been a unique opportunity to be able to talk about my feelings about the Savior and the journey that I feel I have been led along.LS: Yep, obviously we'll get the, the obvious things out of the way. So, your last name is Christofferson and you are Elder Christofferson's brother.Tom: And he is my brother.LS: Oh, that's right. You are becoming more and more famous through this, these interviews.Tom: So, we are a family of five sons. He is the oldest and I'm the youngest.LS: Nice. I'm the youngest too, so I can, I can emp