Leading Questions

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How the UK governance system compares with other countries Dec 01, 2022

Show notes

“You don’t really understand your own system until you compare it with someone else’s.”

Professor Colin Talbot took an unconventional route into academia, having spent time in the private sector before landing his first university job. A seasoned researcher and author who specialises in public services and public management reform, Colin has also worked as a consultant for public sector organisations – allowing him insight into the true operating nature of public bodies and not just the ‘party line’ he is usually fed in his research work.

In this episode – a departure from our usual focus on public service leaders’ career challenges and highlights – Colin takes a look back at the UK’s public management changes under New Labour, compares the UK governance system with that of other countries, and explains what he sees as the pitfalls of the country’s heavy reliance on central government, including mistakes made during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Peppered with ample context, insights, and examples of what he believes the UK has got wrong – and right – in this podcast Colin puts forward his key messages with verve: that strengthening and empowering local government and encouraging civil servants to spend time in frontline delivery roles are vital if public services are to be improved.

An absorbing listen, those seeking to understand public management challenges and how to overcome them will not be disappointed.

Championing diversity of thought in government – Yazmine Laroche Aug 11, 2022

Show notes

“Talent comes in every shape, colour, size and we have to be able to tap into that.”

Yazmine Laroche had a varied 30-year career in the Canadian public service, rising to become public service accessibility chief and the first person with a visible disability to be appointed deputy minister in the bureaucracy’s history.

In this episode – recorded shortly after she retired from the public service in June – Yazmine gives an extremely honest and compelling account of the obstacles she faced in her career. From accepting a job she felt ill qualified for and was told she would hate to striving to improve the working lives of public servants with disabilities after decades of minimising her own, Yazmine has not shied away from challenge. And all in the name of one thing – her resolute commitment to public service.

A hugely experienced and astute leader who believes her time as a public servant has made her a better person, Yazmine shares her hard-won advice for aspiring leaders, speaks of the “tremendous importance of allyship”, and explains why failing to create representative teams could lead to “terrible outcomes”. One not to miss.

How to take the good with the bad when working in government – Michael Wernick Jun 23, 2022

Show notes

“Any kind of meaningful career is going to experience setbacks and defeats. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a successful career.”

Michael Wernick spent nearly four decades in the Canadian public service, rising to become the country’s most senior official before his retirement in 2019. In this episode he reflects on some of the many lessons of his long and varied career, its supreme highs and its crushing lows.

Drawing on his experiences as a white city-dweller at the helm of what is now known as the department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs to the three years spent as clerk of the Privy Council of Canada and secretary to the cabinet, Michael is open about the public service’s strengths and its failings.

Touching on the systemic racism in government processes, why he has a problem with the notion of ‘speaking truth to power’ while simultaneously advocating candour, and why his vision for the public service is akin to the moving staircases in Harry Potter’s Hogwarts, this is a valuable listen for anyone interested in the inner workings of government.

Staying sane while managing change in government – Suma Chakrabarti May 19, 2022

Show notes

“You should never pick me for any job which is business as usual… I am my best or worst, depending on your point of view, when dealing with change.” From helping to establish the UK Department for International Development (DfID) after its separation from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to managing a prisons crisis as justice department permanent secretary, Suma Chakrabarti has never been afraid to take on big, complex challenges. Quite the opposite – the opportunity to create change is, he says, what energises him. In this episode, Suma reflects on his long career in the UK civil service – which also included stints in the Cabinet Office and Treasury – and his time as president of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Discussing his decision to leave the civil service because he was at loggerheads with the minister, why he thinks the merger of DfID and the Foreign Office is a mistake, the future of work, his advice to ambitious civil servants, and much more besides, Suma reveals himself as a bold, astute, and empathetic leader with a truckload of lessons to share.

Engaging with risk in government – Stephanie Foster Apr 21, 2022

Show notes

I’m really kind of glad I didn’t know all the rules because if I’d stuck to the rules, we would never have done it.”

Stephanie Foster had been in defence for 23 years when she volunteered to take responsibility for a floundering AUS$1bn stimulus package for local government. Despite facing public criticism over the scheme that she feared might end her career, she says breaking the rules – albeit unknowingly – helped her team deliver 1,000 projects across Australia.

Now deputy secretary governance, Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and head of reform for the Australian Public Service, Stephanie also talks of the mighty challenge of delivering the Foster Report in response to an alleged sexual assault in Parliament House, against a politically-charged backdrop and under intense media scrutiny.

Looking back at her long career, what’s clear is that she has become a leader formed of the qualities she admired in her mentors – one who isn’t afraid to be afraid, and who is perfectly imperfect.

Adjusting your leadership to the grain of the organisation: in conversation with Baroness Minouche Shafik Aug 09, 2021

Show notes

“You have to flex your leadership and you don’t really know how to do that until you’ve really understood the culture of the organisation.”

Minouche Shafik was the youngest ever vice president of the World Bank. In 2008, she became permanent secretary of the Department for International Development (Dfid), before moving to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) as deputy managing director in 2011 only to find her new boss engulfed in scandal.

From there, she became the deputy governor at the Bank of England and is currently director of the London School of Economics.

Minouche draws on her vast experience to reflect on her own leadership style, her belief in servant leadership and her passion for promoting diversity.

She also explores the challenges associated with leading decentralised organisations like Dfid, the beauty of an independent civil service and why a small gesture from Christine Lagarde has stuck with her for many years.

Leading the public service digital revolution with Professor Sir David Omand Jul 23, 2021

Show notes

“GCHQ is an example for the rest of the public service… here is a case where civil servants have made technology sing.”

In 1996 David Omand faced his first major leadership challenge: he had become the director of GCHQ and was charged with continuing the intelligence agency’s post-Cold War programme of technological transformation and reform.

In this episode David discusses his experience of being “the young man sent from London to destroy the organisation”, the overlooked concept of followership and the importance of having a narrative.

He also explores his time as permanent secretary of the Home Office, reflecting on why he put so much store by safe spaces, how a life-threatening diagnosis of Non-Hodgkin lymphoma changed his approach to work, and becoming the UK’s first Security and Intelligence Coordinator.

The Treasury boy who supported four prime ministers in the UK government - a conversation with Lord Gus O’Donnell Jun 07, 2021

Show notes

“The idea that in any sense I planned my career is completely wrong.”

Lord Gus O’Donnell’s long career in the civil service started in 1979 in the Treasury and included stints as a diplomat in Washington, press secretary to prime minister John Major and Cabinet Secretary, head of the civil service and permanent secretary of the Cabinet Office under three prime ministers – Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron.

In this episode he discusses what it was like to work with four very different leaders, at very different points in their premierships, and with very different styles. He also reflects on his own leadership development, how he remained calm in a crisis and why he regrets feeling irreplaceable.

There are plenty of insights on the civil service too – with comparisons between the private sector, his drive to instil pride and why he always told people that if they want to get on, they should get out, get different experiences... and then come back.

When Whitehall leadership dictats don’t work: in conversation with Professor Ciaran Martin CB May 05, 2021

Show notes

“The worst piece of leadership advice I got was: ‘be an authentic leader.’”

Of course be true to yourself and your values, says Ciaran Martin CB, professor of practice in the management of public organisations at the University of Oxford’s Blavatnik School of Government.

“The bit I interpreted wrongly, which made it the worst piece of advice, was to just act yourself at work,” he adds.

In this episode, Ciaran reflects on his long civil service career including stints at the Cabinet Office, GCHQ and latterly as the founding chief executive of the National Cyber Security Centre.

He considers the switch from central government into the intelligence agency; why “monolithic” leadership dictats from Whitehall were useless when working with technical specialists; the experience of publicly fronting the 2017 WannaCry ransomware attack; and whether Northcote-Trevelyan still holds.

Understanding what’s expected of you in government: a conversation with Dame Helen Ghosh Apr 12, 2021

Show notes

“I have used the term over the years of ‘having running away money’. That doesn’t mean having a stash of savings, but it does mean all the time thinking to yourself, ‘If this job doesn’t work, if I can’t stand this a moment longer… what would I do?’”

Dame Helen Ghosh enjoyed a long career in the civil service, becoming permanent secretary of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in 2004 and then the Home Office in 2011. She then led the National Trust before becoming master of Balliol College, Oxford in 2018.

In this episode Helen discusses the importance of embedding in and understanding what different organisations expect from a leader, drawing on her extensive experience of taking the helm in very different environments.

She also considers the role of the civil service in serving the government of the day, and shares insights into her own hinterland and where she draws resilience from, as well as female leadership, dealing with public scrutiny and being open to the fact you may have made a mistake.

If you would like to suggest an interviewee for the show, or tell us what you think, you can get in touch by emailing ggfeditor@gmail.com. If you are enjoying the show, we would really appreciate it if you could share it widely and give us a rating.

Your host was Siobhan Benita. Kate Hodge edited the episode, and it was produced by James Ede.

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