It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Barcelona vs Inter: Pep, José, and the Era-Defining Semi-Final - Part One Apr 22, 2025

Welcome to It Was What It Was.

As Barcelona and Inter prepare to face off once again in this year’s Champions League semi-final, we look back at the original - a tie that shaped modern football.

Pep Guardiola vs. José Mourinho. All-out attack vs. tactical defiance. Ideology, rivalry - maybe even good vs. evil?

Fifteen years ago, Pep’s all-conquering Barcelona met Mourinho’s Inter Milan in a Champions League semi-final that didn’t just decide who reached the final - it helped define a footballing era.

In Part One, Rob and Jonathan set the scene: how Mourinho’s Inter came to challenge the most dominant team in the world, the tactics he used, the battles he fought in Italy, and how both sides arrived at this collision point chasing domestic and European glory.

Part Two drops Friday, where Rob and Jonathan break down the epic semi-final itself.

00:00 Barcelona's Football Perfection

01:48 Mourinho vs. Guardiola: A Rivalry Begins

02:47 The Dark Side of Mourinho

03:25 Star Wars Analogies and Football Tactics

06:53 Mourinho's Seven-Point Plan

07:45 Mourinho's Philosophy and Evolution

08:43 Mourinho's Journey to Inter Milan

09:58 Cultural Expectations and Pragmatic Football

12:23 Mourinho's Press Conference Antics

13:44 Mourinho's Linguistic Brilliance

14:49 Mourinho's Training Philosophy

20:04 Key Matches and Tactical Shifts

21:16 Mourinho's First Season at Inter

22:27 Transfer Drama: Stars on the Move

23:51 Barcelona's Dominance and Challenges

26:40 Inter's Journey to the Semifinals

28:57 Mourinho's Tactical Mastery

32:29 Controversies and Confrontations

40:24 The Road to the Semifinals

43:57 Setting the Stage for the Epic Semifinal

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Horse That Changed Manchester United: The Glazer Takeover - Part Two Apr 18, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was. It's time for part two of our look at the unexpected role a horse would play in the controversial takeover of Manchester United by the Glazer family.

The episode covers the period of the Glazer acquisition, the impact of their ownership, and the financial manoeuvres that transformed the club.

From Alex Ferguson's complicated relationship with the Glazers to the missed opportunities and recruitment challenges that followed, this episode gives an in-depth look at how Manchester United's fate was sealed - and the horse that might have started it all!

00:00 The Decline of Manchester United: A 20-Year Journey

00:20 Introduction to the Football History Podcast

00:48 The Gibraltar Incident and Its Fallout

01:26 The Glazers' Takeover: A Turning Point

02:24 The Financial Strategy of the Glazers

02:54 The Early Signs of Trouble

03:58 The Glazers' Background and Business Practices

04:48 The Impact of Global Capital on Football

06:24 The Glazers' Vision and Strategy

08:43 The Financial Mechanics of the Takeover

10:41 The Role of Debt in Modern Football

11:54 The Glazers' Financial Maneuvering

14:32 The Aftermath and Long-Term Consequences

16:15 The Glazers' Legacy and Future Implications

18:26 The Financial Crisis and Its Impact on Football

20:57 The Leveraged Buyout Explained

22:52 The Final Stages of the Takeover

30:47 The Glazer Takeover and Initial Success

31:17 Fan Protests and Opposition

34:52 Financial Strain and Missed Opportunities

37:32 The Role of Ed Woodward

43:18 Transfer Market Failures

46:15 Managerial Missteps

53:37 The Glazers' Disconnect and Conclusion

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Horse That Changed Manchester United - Part One with David Walsh Apr 15, 2025

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In today's episode, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by journalist David Walsh to explore how the modern fortunes of Manchester United are intertwined with one of the greatest racehorses in history.

This is the extraordinary story of Rock of Gibraltar, the famed racehorse part-owned by Sir Alex Ferguson - and how his connections and relationships with John Magnier, and JP McManus would ultimately impact the Glazers' takeover of Manchester United.

David Walsh shares insider details from his investigative work on the story, making this one of the most fascinating sports sagas of recent times.

Tune in on Friday for part two, and the implications of the Glazers' takeover - and Manchester United's decline.

00:00 The Tale of the Lost Kingdom

00:25 Introduction to the Podcast and Special Guest

00:35 The Story of Rock of Gibraltar

01:25 David Walsh's Insights

02:28 The Connection Between Sir Alex Ferguson and John Magner

07:36 The Rise of Rock of Gibraltar

17:21 The Dispute Over Ownership

19:26 The Financial Implications

29:04 Ownership Dispute and Legal Battle

29:52 High Court Drama and Stakeholder Tensions

30:50 Public Fallout and Media Frenzy

34:02 Settlement and Aftermath

38:39 The Glazers' Takeover

41:35 Reflecting on Missed Opportunities

49:45 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Brendon Batson: Football Pioneer and Big Ron Betrayal - Part Two Apr 11, 2025

Welcome to It Was What It Was for part two of our interview with Brendan Batson, a trailblazer in English football.

Brendon tells Jonathan and Rob about his impactful time at West Bromwich Albion as part of the iconic 'Three Degrees' with Cyrille Regis and Laurie Cunningham.

We discuss his teammates, the tragic losses and his work to combat racism. Brendon also gives us an insight into the personal impact of his former manager Ron Atkinson's notorious comments on live television.

00:00 Introduction and Overview

01:07 Brendan Batson's Early Career and Challenges

03:00 The China Tour Experience

06:20 The Three Degrees Phenomenon

12:32 Impact and Legacy of Black Players

18:37 Knee Injury and Career Transition

20:10 Coaching Courses and Philosophies

24:24 The Evolution of a Coaching Philosophy

24:42 The One-Size-Fits-All Approach

25:50 Player Welfare and Career Transitions

27:59 Tragic Losses and Their Impact

28:38 The Legacy of Laurie Cunningham

32:33 Racism in Football: A Personal Betrayal

38:20 The Complexity of Racism in Football

41:21 The Fight Against Racism: Past and Present

46:17 Concluding Thoughts and Reflections

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Brendon Batson: Arsenal's Trailblazer and the Three Degrees Legacy - Part One Apr 08, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was. This week Jonathan and Rob welcome special guest Brendan Batson, a former Arsenal, Cambridge, and West Brom player - who made a significant impact on British social and footballing history.

Part one focuses on Batson's early life in Grenada and Trinidad, his challenges adapting to the British climate in the 1960s, and becoming Arsenal's first black player.

Join us for part two on Friday where Brendan recalls his time at West Brom - and the birth of the famous 'Three Degrees'.

00:00 Introduction and Special Guest Announcement

01:21 Brendan Batson's Early Life and Migration to England

03:18 Adapting to Life in England and Discovering Football

06:34 Challenges and Racism in Early Years

11:48 The Windrush Generation and Social Context

14:48 Racism in Football and the National Front

19:13 Conclusion of Part One

20:00 Scouted by Arsenal: The Beginning of a Football Journey

21:23 Challenges and Triumphs: Early Arsenal Days

22:38 Facing Racism: The Harsh Realities of the 60s and 70s

25:06 Breaking Barriers: Becoming Arsenal's First Black Player

27:44 Struggles with Racism on the Field

31:36 Guidance and Growth: Learning to Cope

34:32 Career Progression: From Arsenal to Cambridge and Beyond

36:33 Ron Atkinson's Influence: A Turning Point

37:41 Conclusion: Reflecting on a Pioneering Career

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Cameroon at Italia ‘90: England Showdown and Legacy - Part Two Apr 04, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, and part two of our look at Cameroon’s extraordinary journey at the 1990 World Cup.

With their stunning opening victory against defending champions Argentina and making history as the first African team to reach the quarter-finals, Cameroon’s story is one of resilience, brilliance, and pure football magic.

Facing England in a gripping quarter-final showdown against stars like Paul Gascoigne and Gary Lineker, the Indomitable Lions captivated the world in one of the World Cup’s greatest underdog stories.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

00:00 Introduction and Initial Setup

00:19 Chaos and Preparation for the World Cup

01:25 Cameroon's Opening Game Against Argentina

02:45 Diego Maradona's Challenges

04:56 Cameroon's Tactical Adjustments

07:35 FIFA's New Rules and Refereeing Challenges

11:35 Cameroon's Historic Victory Over Argentina

15:04 Advancing Through the Group Stage

20:41 Facing Colombia in the Knockout Stage

23:39 Cliffhanger: Preparing to Face England

24:32 England's Quarter-Final Prospects

25:25 Scouting Cameroon: Underestimations and Realities

27:32 Tunnel Tensions and Early Game Dynamics

29:37 Cameroon's Tactical Surprises

33:46 England's Tactical Adjustments

40:54 Cameroon's Legacy and African Football Challenges

50:07 Concluding Thoughts on Cameroon 1990

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Cameroon at Italia ‘90: Roger Milla and the Legend of the Indomitable Lions - Part One Apr 01, 2025

This week on It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson look back at one of the most iconic footballing stories of all time: Cameroon’s 1990 World Cup.

Jonathan and Rob look at the chaotic preparations behind Cameroon's campaign, discussing last-minute squad upheaval, internal conflicts between teammates, and the unexpected recall of a man who would become a legend: Roger Milla.

In the build up to the tournament's opening game against defending champions Argentina, there were turbulent training camps, political interferences, and a complete lack of confidence in the squad. That would all change in the summer to come...

Join us on Friday for Part Two.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

00:00 Pre-Game Nerves and Disorganization

01:02 Introduction to the 1990 Cameroon Team

01:25 Historical Context of African Teams in the World Cup

02:26 The Dramatic Campaign of Cameroon 1990

04:40 The Goalkeeper Dilemma

07:25 African Football's Struggles and Triumphs

14:37 Colonial Impact on African Football

17:44 Cameroon's Chaotic Road to the World Cup

24:09 African Players in European Football

24:58 Cameroon's Discontent in the 1990s

26:02 The Build-Up to the 1990 World Cup

31:43 Roger Milla's Unexpected Return

40:07 Goalkeeper Rivalries and Team Dynamics

43:33 Pre-Match Chaos and Last-Minute Changes

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Did Saudi Arabia Buy Sport? Soft Power, Newcastle and Jimmy Hill! Mar 28, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Today Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author James Montague to discuss his new book 'Engulfed' - exploring Saudi Arabia's massive investments in sport.

James gives unique insights on the history of Saudi football, the Vision 2030 project, and how Newcastle United's takeover fits into the larger picture. You'll find out how strategic use of 'soft power' has transformed Saudi Arabia's global image through sport.

The trio examine the rich football culture in Saudi Arabia, the country's evolving social landscape, and the geopolitics influencing these changes.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

00:00 Introduction

00:17 James Montague's Early Works and Reviews

01:28 Re-release and Sequel: Engulfed

01:59 Saudi Arabia's Emergence in Sports

03:26 Sports Washing and Soft Power

06:47 Historical Context and Saudi Investments

11:10 Mohammad bin Salman's Rise to Power

23:57 The Khashoggi Incident and Its Aftermath

30:13 Saudi Arabia's Football Culture

31:24 Challenges of Covering Saudi Arabia

33:52 Women in Saudi Football

35:15 Jimmy Hill's Influence on Saudi Football

40:33 David Icke's Saudi Adventure

46:10 Vision 2030 and Saudi Football Investments

52:26 Neom's Football Ambitions

57:34 Conclusion and Book Promotion

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Soccer: An American History - Part Three: Boom to Bust Mar 26, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

It's the final installment of our three-part series exploring the rise and fall of the American Soccer League. Jonathan and Rob dive into internal conflicts within the ASL, the 1929 Wall Street crash, and how its devastating effects exposed the vulnerabilities of the fledgling league.

But all is not lost - with another significant attempt to establish professional soccer in the U.S....

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

00:00 Introduction to the Series and Bela Gutmann's Influence

01:13 The Rise of the American Soccer League (ASL)

01:51 Innovations and Controversies in American Soccer

06:23 Financial Growth and International Tensions

08:17 The Playoff System and League Complications

10:53 The Struggles of Smaller Franchises

15:06 The Breakaway and Formation of the Eastern Soccer League

17:31 Chaos and Competition Between Leagues

22:24 The Soccer War and Its Impact

23:57 The Decline of the American Soccer League

25:27 The Wall Street Crash and Its Consequences

27:20 The Struggles of Key Figures and Teams

29:36 The Final Collapse of the ASL

34:25 Analysing the Failure of Soccer in the US

38:08 Comparing US and European Sports Models

45:36 The Future of Soccer in the US

49:17 Conclusion and What's Next

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Soccer: An American History - Part Two: Struggles, Expansion and International Influence Mar 21, 2025

In today's It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue to explore the fascinating story of soccer in the United States.

Highlighting the pivotal role of immigrant communities in the sport's development, the episode also examines key figures like Bela Gutmann and the significant tours by foreign teams that attracted huge crowds.

Join us for the conclusion of this three-part series on Tuesday.

00:00 Introduction to Bela Gutmann's New York Era

00:51 The Pre-History of American Soccer

01:36 Challenges in Establishing Soccer in the U.S.

02:26 The First Professional Soccer League

04:24 Financial Struggles and League Dynamics

07:16 Formation and Early Years of the American Soccer League

20:53 Innovations and Comparisons with Other Sports

24:19 College Football's Dominance and Soccer's Struggles

25:39 The Role of Universities in American Sports

26:14 Challenges in Early American Soccer

26:53 The Rise of the New York Giants

27:44 Fall River Marksmen's Dominance

28:25 Economic Struggles and Soccer's Impact

29:29 The League's Early Successes and Challenges

30:14 Expansion and New Teams

31:13 Player Transfers and Immigration Issues

33:19 The American Menace and Scottish Football

34:49 International Influence and Jewish Tours

41:07 The Impact of Jewish Players and Fans

44:23 The Maccabees and Tactical Evolution

47:49 The League's Growing Popularity and Issues

50:32 Concluding Thoughts and Future Outlook

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Soccer: An American History - Part One: Origins and Challenges Mar 18, 2025

In this episode of It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson dive into the early history of soccer in the United States.

They look at efforts to establish professional leagues, the influence of immigrant communities, and the geographic and cultural factors that made it difficult for football to gain a foothold - compared to rival American sports.

This episode is the first of a three-part series. Join us on Friday as the story continues!

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to American Soccer

01:08 Early History of Soccer in the USA

02:00 Challenges and Attempts to Establish Soccer

02:38 Soccer's Struggle for Popularity

06:06 The Role of Universities in American Football

17:16 Immigrant Influence on American Soccer

17:43 Regional Hotbeds of Soccer

24:18 Formation of Early Soccer Leagues

27:43 The Rise of Fall River and Early American Football

28:31 Economic Challenges and League Suspensions

29:18 Comparing Football Cultures: UK vs. US

33:11 Baseball's Influence on Early American Soccer

38:53 The Birth of the US Football Association

41:36 Challenges and Growth of Early US Soccer

46:52 Bethlehem Steel and the Industrial Influence

51:01 The Challenge Cup and Regional Rivalries

52:09 Concluding Thoughts and Future Prospects

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The 1985 League Cup Final: The Match that Changed My Life Mar 14, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

Rob and Jonathan are joined by David Corner - the man whose life was changed forever by the 1985 League Cup Final between Sunderland and Norwich.

That match is remembered for a costly mistake that led to Sunderland’s defeat - a moment that saw David singled out, subjected to intense criticism and even physical abuse from his own fans.

David shares his story with Jonathan and Rob, reflecting on how that experience shaped his life, the challenges he faced in the aftermath, and how he found the strength to move forward.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

League Cup Classics: Liverpool, Newcastle and the Greatest Finals Mar 11, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

With Liverpool and Newcastle set to battle for the first major trophy of the English domestic season on Sunday, we’re taking a journey through some of the greatest League Cup finals of all time.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper each share three of their favourite finals - games filled with drama, controversy, and unforgettable moments that have defined the competition. Have we missed any of your favourites? Get in touch with @ItWasPod

On Friday we have a special episode featuring David Corner, reflecting on Sunderland’s heartbreaking defeat in 1985.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From Arteta to Alonso: The Rise of Basque Coaches Mar 07, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

Mikel Arteta’s transformation of Arsenal, Unai Emery’s tactical mastery, Xabi Alonso’s meteoric rise at Bayer Leverkusen, and Andoni Iraola’s fearless pressing at AFC Bournemouth all highlight a remarkable trend: A new wave of coaches shaping the modern game, many of them from the Basque Country.

But why does this small region produce so many elite managers? Is it the coaching philosophy, the deep footballing culture, or something ingrained in the Basque identity?

This is the story of how a new generation of Basque coaches are redefining football.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Guardiola: Dominance, Decline and a Post-Pep World? Mar 04, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

This week - we discuss the rise of Basque coaching. But we begin not in Bilbao or San Sebastián, but with a Catalan: Pep Guardiola.

After revolutionising football with Barcelona, dominating in Germany with Bayern, and redefining the Premier League with Manchester City, Guardiola has become the defining coach of his era.

But after a turbulent season at City, questions are emerging: Is this the beginning of the end for his football? Have opponents finally caught up with his ideas? Or does he have another reinvention left?

This is the story of how Guardiola reshaped the modern game—and what comes next. Part two, on the Basque coaching revolution, will be released on Friday.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Making of a Football Superpower - Part Three: A New Dawn Feb 28, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was. This is the story of a new dawn - where one national team took full control of their destiny, cementing a legacy that continues to shape football today.

Following their World Cup triumph (in our last part), the U.S. Women's side entered a new era of independence and power - and with it came major shifts.

Coach Tony DiCicco became a casualty of the team’s growing influence, making way for fresh leadership and a transformed vision. But tensions were surfacing behind the scenes, with a showdown between star player Brandi Chastain and new coach April Heinrichs...

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Making of a Football Superpower - Part Two: The Arrival Feb 25, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast..

Approaching the end of the millennium, the U.S. women’s national team had already won a World Cup and Olympic gold, but they were still fighting for mainstream recognition. That all changed when they took centre stage at the 1999 Women’s World Cup.

With 90,000 fans packing the Rose Bowl and millions watching around the world, the final against China became a defining moment - not just for the U.S. team, but for women’s football as a whole. Brandi Chastain’s iconic penalty, the sold-out stadiums, and the sheer spectacle of the tournament proved that women’s football wasn’t just growing - it had arrived.

This is the story of how the 1999 World Cup reshaped the sport forever.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Making of a Football Superpower - Part One: The Birth of U.S. Women's Soccer Feb 21, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast..

Despite not playing their first professional match until 1985, the U.S. Women won the inaugural World Cup in 1991. But even as champions, they faced inequality—most notably at the 1996 Olympics, where they were only promised pay if they won gold, while the men earned bonuses for any medal. Tennis icon Billie Jean King stepped in to fight for change.

This is the story of how the U.S. women’s team fought for more than just trophies.

Part two, covering the iconic 1999 Women’s World Cup, is released on Tuesday. And if you missed our intro episode with USA legend Carli Lloyd earlier this week, go back and check it out.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Making of a Football Superpower with Carli Lloyd - An Introduction Feb 18, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In our new mini-series, we begin the journey of how women’s football in the U.S. rose to global dominance. And who better to start with than Carli Lloyd - one of the game’s greatest competitors and a key figure in that evolution?

From the early struggles for recognition to back-to-back World Cup triumphs, Lloyd’s career mirrors the relentless fight for respect and progress in the women’s game. She takes us inside the mindset that made her a two-time World Cup winner, an Olympic gold medallist, and the architect of one of the most iconic performances in women’s football history - her stunning hat-trick in the 2015 World Cup final.

Thank you for joining us. If you enjoy the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Busby’s Man United: From Munich Tragedy to European Glory Feb 14, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In this final chapter of our series, we complete the journey that began with Gary Neville reflecting on the legacy of the Busby Babes. We explored who they were before the 1958 Munich Air Disaster, the tragic day itself, and now, we turn to the aftermath: How Manchester United rose again.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take you through the incredible story of resilience and redemption. After recovering from his own life-threatening injuries, Sir Matt Busby rebuilt his beloved club, guiding them from devastation to glory. With the emergence of new stars like George Best and the leadership of Bobby Charlton, United’s revival culminated in their crowning moment in 1968, when they became the first English club to lift the European Cup - just a decade after their darkest day.

Thank you for joining us. If you’ve enjoyed the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Manchester United's Darkest Day Feb 11, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In last week’s episode, we told the story of the rise of the Busby Babes, their brilliance, and their final match before tragedy struck. Today, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take you through the darkest day in Manchester United’s history: 6 February 1958.

At Munich-Riem Airport, United’s flight stopped to refuel on its way home from Belgrade. After two failed take-off attempts, the third ended in disaster. The crash claimed 23 lives, including eight of Manchester United’s finest players. Duncan Edwards fought for survival but died 15 days later. Manager Sir Matt Busby was left critically injured - the club’s future uncertain.

In this episode, Jonathan and Rob reconstruct the events of that fateful day - and explore the immediate aftermath; the heartbreak, the shock, and how Manchester United Football Club somehow carried on.

On Friday, we will have the final part: How Sir Matt Busby’s Manchester United rose again.

If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review. Thank you for listening.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Who Were The Busby Babes? Feb 07, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Following Gary Neville’s tribute to the triumph and tragedy of the Busby Babes on the anniversary week of the Munich Air Disaster, we begin a three-part series on how the tragedy shaped the future of Manchester United.

In Part One, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore who the Busby Babes were, how the term came to be, and how Sir Matt Busby built his legendary team. They discuss the club’s pioneering youth system, Bobby Charlton’s journey to becoming a United supporter, and the importance of developing young talent. Among them was Duncan Edwards, regarded as one of England’s greatest footballers at the time, whose life was tragically cut short in 1958.

The episode closes with the team’s final match before the fateful Munich Air Disaster.

Next week, It Was What It Was presents a special episode focusing on the Munich Air Disaster, its immediate aftermath, and how Matt Busby’s rebuilt side laid the foundation for the Manchester United we know today.

If you're enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Gary Neville: The Triumph and Tragedy of the Busby Babes Feb 04, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week former Manchester United captain Gary Neville joins us to look back on one of the most momentous and tragic events in football history: The Munich air disaster of 1958.

Neville discusses the lasting significance of the tragedy - and how Sir Matt Busby rebuilt the club, leading them to European Cup glory just a decade after its darkest day.

Gary shares stories with Jonathan and Rob - including how he was raised to honour the Busby Babes as a young fan and as a player - and how their legacy helped shape the modern Manchester United.

Later this week, we’ll bring you the first instalment of our mini-series on the disaster, exploring who the Busby Babes were before that fateful night.

If you're enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Mystery of Matthias Sindelar, Part Two Jan 31, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Austrian footballer Matthias Sindelar was one of the greats of the game but his mysterious death in 1939 at the age of just 35 became a hugely contested issue in the darkest era of Austrian history. Was he murdered because he objected to the Nazis? Did he chose to end his life unable to countenance living under Hitler? Or was he the victim of a tragic accident? And what role had his girlfriend Camilla Castagnola, found dead alongside him, played?

Join Jonathan and Rob in the second and final part as they separate fact from fiction in the life of a lesser known great….

If you're enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Mystery of Matthias Sindelar, Part One Jan 28, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Austrian footballer Matthias Sindelar was one of the greats of the game but his mysterious death in 1939 at the age of just 35 became a hugely contested issue in the darkest era of Austrian history. Was he murdered because he objected to the Nazis? Did he chose to end his life unable to countenance living under Hitler? Or was he the victim of a tragic accident? And what role had his girlfriend Camilla Castagnola, found dead alongside him, played?

Join Jonathan and Rob as they separate fact from fiction in the life of a lesser known great….

Our finale is out on Friday!

If you're enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Brilliance of Bill Nicholson - Part Four Jan 24, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

Jonathan and Rob continue exploring the extraordinary legacy of Bill Nicholson’s push and run game at Spurs and its relationship with Cruyff, Ajax, Barça and Total Football.

In Part 4, Nicholson guides Spurs to the first league and cup double of the 20th century and Spurs become the first British club to win a European trophy.

Don't forget to go back and listen to the rest of this series. Parts one and two feature Spurs royalty Steve Perryman!

If you’re enjoying It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Brilliance of Bill Nicholson - Part Three Jan 21, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

Jonathan and Rob continue their dive into the career of Tottenham's legendary manager and one of the founding fathers of modern football: Bill Nicholson.

Don't forget to go back and listen to parts one and two with special guest and Spurs royalty Steve Perryman!

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Brilliance of Bill Nicholson - Part Two With Steve Perryman Jan 17, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

It's time for part two of Jonathan and Rob's chat with Spurs legend Steve Perryman about the club's legendary manager and one of the founding fathers of modern football: Bill Nicholson.

Hear more from Steve as he tells us backstage stories and insights on Nicholson from the training ground, the dressing room and White Hart Lane.

Don't forget to go back and listen to part one first if you missed it.

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Brilliance of Bill Nicholson - Part One With Steve Perryman Jan 14, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was.

This week, Jonathan and Rob are joined by Steve Perryman, Tottenham Hotspur’s record appearance holder, to talk about legendary Spurs manager Bill Nicholson.

From transforming Spurs into serial winners - to hilarious changing room stories - Steve takes us behind the scenes of one of the most successful sides of the 20th century.

Join us on Friday for Part Two!

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

History's Biggest FA Cup Third Round Shocks - Part Two Jan 10, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was - for Part Two of our look back at The FA Cup’s most memorable Third Round upsets!

Jonathan and Rob return to tell the stories behind five more iconic moments from football's oldest cup competition - before the pair choose their ultimate Third Round shock.

Please go back and listen to Part One if you missed it!

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

History's Biggest FA Cup Third Round Shocks - Part One Jan 07, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was - where it's time to talk some of The FA Cup’s most memorable Third Round shocks!

The FA Cup is synonymous with dreams and giant-killings, and nothing captures its essence better than the Third Round proper. Jonathan and Rob bring us their favourite ‘cupsets’ and the stories that have cemented them in FA Cup folklore.

Don't forget to join us for Part Two on Friday!

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lines, Screens and Outrage! The Story, the Impact and the Cost of VAR Jan 03, 2025

Welcome back to It Was What It Was and Happy New Year!

In today’s episode, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the origins of VAR with author Daisy Christodoulou.

Her latest book, I Can’t Stop Talking About VAR, discusses its profound impact on the sport, and whether it was designed to enhance football - or if football is now adapting to fit VAR. The evolution of football has never felt more immediate or impactful.

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sir Alex And His Worst Ever New Year's Day - with QPR's Andy Sinton Dec 31, 2024

New’s Eve Year 1991. Manchester United are on course to win the title for the first time since 1967. It’s Sir Alex Ferguson’s 50th birthday party, but it's a small, understated affair because United play QPR at Old Trafford the next day. A comfortable home win is expected for United to go top again - but it didn't work out that way...

Join one of the stars of that game, Andy Sinton, to discuss what happened next, in perhaps the most famous New Year's Day game in modern English football.

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The True Story of the Christmas Truce 1914 Dec 23, 2024

Christmas Eve, 1914. A cold, crisp, moonlit night in Flanders.

British and German soldiers are dug into opposing trenches in a hellish shelled-out landscape, strewn with rotting corpses. But an unfamiliar sound is heard from the German trenches: “Stille Nacht, Heilige Nacht” is being sung to welcome the birth of Christ.

The British respond with their own carols, seasonal greetings are exchanged across the trenches and troops tentatively move out into No Man’s Land. Gifts are exchanged, friends are made and then, allegedly, a football match ensued!

Is this mythic tale - a staple of primary school history lessons - actually true? Or is it mere legend? Was any football really played? If so, is it perhaps the most significant match of all time? Rob and Jonathan reveal the true story behind what may be football’s finest moment.

If you’re enjoying the It Was What It Was, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Pickles Finds The World Cup: The Story Of Football's Most Famous Dog! Dec 17, 2024

This week on It Was What It Was, it's the tale of Pickles: The most famous dog in football history.

As most football fans know, Pickles saved the day by finding the Jules Rimet trophy - the original World Cup - after it had farcically been stolen from a stamp collection exhibition in the run up to the 1966 World Cup.

But the whole story is even more surprising, more tragic and more comedic. And what came next for Pickles and the thief? Jonathan and Rob reveal all.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Wolves: Champions Of The World! Dec 10, 2024

This week on It Was What It Was, Jonathan and Rob introduce us to the team - and the match - that played a huge part in the invention of the European Cup...

“Champions of the World!” was the headline given to Wolverhampton Wanderers, when they beat the mighty Hungarian team Honvéd, led by Ferenc Puskas, in 1954.

Billy Wright was the star of the show for a game that many saw as reestablishing England as top football nation. But was it just gamesmanship that won the day for this great Wolves side? And how did that grandiose headline annoy the French so much it led to the formation of the European Cup (and consequently the Champions League) a year later?

Wolves 3 Honvéd 2 is one of the most significant matches ever; a great night of European football that paved the way for so many historic moments in years to come.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When the Super Eagles Stunned the World - Nigeria 1996 Dec 03, 2024

This week on It Was What It Was, we're looking at one of football's most remarkable underdog stories.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take us back to the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, where Nigeria’s “Dream Team” shocked the world and won men's gold - the first African team to win a senior global football tournament.

From Kanu’s heroics, to dramatic comeback victories over Brazil and Argentina, they explore how this historic triumph cemented African football on the global stage - and inspired a new generation of players.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ruben Amorim: Have Man United Found Their Special One? Nov 26, 2024

This week. It Was What It Was asks: What is it with Portuguese football?

With Ruben Amorim arriving at Manchester United, there are now as many Premier League managers from Portugal as from England coaching this season.

Portugal also has the fourth highest-quota of Premier League players (after England, Brazil and France). For a nation of just over 10 million, it consistently punches above its weight.

Amorim’s rise to one of the biggest jobs in world football is located in the reform of Portuguese football in the 1980s - and specifically in the university faculty that helps turn out some of the world’s best coaches.

Join Jonathan and Rob as we go back to school with Ruben Amorim, speaking to the mentors who forged him as a coach. It's a journey that takes in Jose Mourinho, Cristiano Ronaldo and super agent Jorge Mendes.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rafa Benitez: My Coaching Secrets - Part Two Nov 21, 2024

Welcome to It Was What It Was, and Part Two of our special look back at the remarkable career of Rafa Benitez - with the man himself!

In this second part - Rafa, Jonathan and Rob look back at Rafa's arrival at Anfield, his influence on the Premier League, and then head backstage to explain the moments and decisions behind that iconic Champions League triumph in Istanbul.

Join us as Rafa takes us inside the moments that defined his legacy in England, and cemented his place in Liverpool folklore.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rafa Benitez: My Coaching Secrets - Part One Nov 19, 2024

In this special episode of It Was What It Was, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by the legendary Rafa Benitez.

Part One explores the early years of Rafa's extraordinary career, from his beginnings as a promising young coach in Spain to his groundbreaking success with Valencia.

Rafa shares the stories, challenges, and philosophy that shaped his journey. Part One takes us up to his arrival in England - setting the stage for the Premier League's tactical transformation that Rafa would help to spearhead.

Don’t miss this brilliant insight from one of football’s most renowned tacticians - and join us for Part Two on Thursday.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thomas Tuchel: The Origin Story of England's New Manager Nov 12, 2024

In this week’s episode of It Was What It Was, Jonathan and Rob take a deep dive into the fascinating journey of Thomas Tuchel, the newly appointed England manager. From his early years as a player with a mature football mind, to a detour studying economics while working in a cocktail bar, Tuchel’s path to football’s elite has been anything but ordinary.

Jonathan and Rob discuss how a timely call from Ralph Rangnick set Tuchel on a coaching trajectory that would see him manage some of Europe’s biggest clubs— Mainz, Dortmund, PSG, Chelsea, and Bayern Munich. They reflect on the highlights of his career, including his confidence that led Chelsea to a thrilling Champions League victory over Manchester City in 2021.

Now, with Tuchel at the helm of the England national team, the duo explores what he brings to the international stage, how he might shape England’s future, and whether he can achieve the same success on the world stage that he did in club football.

Join us for a compelling look at one of football’s most innovative managers, and what his unique journey could mean for the future of English football.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Money Behind Modern Football With Miguel Delaney Nov 05, 2024

In this week’s episode of It Was What It Was, Miguel Delaney discusses his new book: States of Play: How Sportswashing Took Over Football.

Jonathan, Rob and Miguel assess how mega-rich investors and state-backed owners have transformed clubs and competitions around the world. The trio explain the impact of sportswashing on our modern game - where nations and corporations have used football to enhance their public image and gain global influence.

Join us for a compelling insight into football's new landscape - and find out what the future could hold for clubs, players, and fans.

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Emergency Pod: Amorim Arrives! Man United And The Busby-Ferguson Curse Nov 01, 2024

In this bonus episode of It Was What It Was hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper look into the striking parallels between Manchester United’s managerial struggles in the post-Matt Busby and post-Sir Alex Ferguson eras. Despite decades of history and immense success, the club has faced a persistent challenge in finding a manager capable of replicating the legacy left by its legendary figures.

Following the recent sacking of Erik Ten Hag, the arrival of Ruben Amorim has reignited the age-old debate about the club's direction and leadership. Wilson and Draper explore how the patterns of the past continue to haunt United, questioning whether Amorim will be the answer to the club’s woes or merely another chapter in a familiar narrative.

Join us as we analyze the lessons learned (or not learned) from the club's history, the impact of managerial instability, and the pressing questions that linger: Can United break free from the cycle of déjà vu, or will history repeat itself once again?

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Trilogy of Violence: Celtic v Racing 1967 - Part Two Oct 31, 2024

In Part Two of It Was What It Was, we dive into the explosive conclusion of the 1967 Intercontinental Cup clash between Celtic and Racing Club. With tempers flaring, the second and decisive third legs were anything but ordinary—featuring multiple send-offs, brutal fouls, and even a policeman with a drawn sword stepping onto the pitch.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper guide you through the chaos and controversy that defined this historic showdown. Don’t miss the conclusion to one of football’s most infamous battles!

If you’ve enjoyed this series, please subscribe for more deep dives into sports history, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Trilogy of Violence: Celtic v Racing 1967 - Part One Oct 29, 2024

This week on It Was What It Was, we’re traveling back to 1967, when Celtic’s legendary Lisbon Lions clashed with Racing Club in an unforgettable, fiery three-match series for the Intercontinental Cup.

In Part One, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the stage before the first leg at Hampden Park, where Jock Stein’s side secured a 1-0 advantage to take to South America - though the real drama was just beginning.

Join us on Thursday for the thrilling conclusion of this historic showdown in Part Two!

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and consider leaving us a five-star review to help others discover the show. Thank you for listening!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

El Clasico: Civil War, Conspiracies And Scandal With Sid Lowe Oct 22, 2024

This week on It Was What It Was, we're talking one of football's greatest rivalries: Real Madrid and Barcelona.

In the week of El Clasico, Spanish football expert Sid Lowe joins Rob and Jonathan to discuss the history, politics and scandal behind possibly the biggest club match in football.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode - and please consider leaving us a five star review to help others find the show. Thank you!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sacchi's Football Revolution: Part Four - World Cup Heartache and Legacy Oct 17, 2024

Join us for the final part of our special series on the shoe salesman who changed football forever: Arrigo Sacchi.

In this episode of It Was What It Was, Sacchi comes to the end of his first spell at AC Milan and answers his country's call - managing the Italian national side at the World Cup in 1994 and Euro 96.

This episode is the last in our series on Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport. It starts with our Sacchi intro episode with Jamie Carragher (please go back and listen if you missed it!).

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sacchi's Football Revolution: Part Three - Creating Milan's Immortals Oct 15, 2024

It Was What It Was continues our special look into the life and career of one of football's greatest and most influential managers: Arrigo Sacchi.

In this episode, Sacchi has finally arrived at AC Milan and, with a team of legends in the making, his greatest work is about to begin.

This episode is part of our series on Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport. It starts with our Sacchi intro episode with Jamie Carragher (please go back and listen if you missed it!).

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sacchi's Football Revolution: Part Two - Small Beginnings and Big Breaks Oct 10, 2024

It Was What It Was continues the epic story of arguably the most important manager in modern football history: Arrigo Sacchi.

In this episode, Rob and Jonathan explore Sacchi's rise through the coaching ranks. Sacchi earns his spurs in youth coaching, before his impressive work at Parma turns the head of Italian giants AC Milan, and their enigmatic owner Silvio Berlusconi.

This episode is part of our special series on Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport. It starts with our Sacchi intro episode with Jamie Carragher (please go back and listen if you missed it!).

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sacchi's Football Revolution: Part One - The Making Of A Genius Oct 08, 2024

This week on It Was What It Was, we continue the epic story of arguably the most important manager in modern football history: Arrigo Sacchi.

Following-up from last week's episode with Jamie Carragher (please go back and listen if you missed it!), Rob and Jonathan go back to Sacchi's roots and how his legend began.

We discuss Sacchi's early years, from shoe factories to football coaching - and the family tragedy that changed the Italian's destiny and the destiny of European football.

This episode is part of our special series on Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Carragher on Sacchi: The Genius Who Revolutionised Football Oct 01, 2024

Welcome to The Overlap's football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Special guest and Liverpool legend Jamie Carragher join hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper as they explore the legacy of one of football’s most iconic managers: Arrigo Sacchi.

Widely regarded as one of the greatest minds in the sport, Sacchi led AC Milan to back-to-back European Cup triumphs in the late 1980s, building a team that Carragher grew up idolising.

In this episode, Carragher discusses Sacchi's profound influence on football, how his revolutionary tactics reshaped the game, and the impact they had on Carragher's own playing career.

Together, the trio provides an in-depth analysis of Sacchi’s extraordinary career and his lasting mark on the sport.

Next week we dig even deeper into the genius of Sacchi, as Jonathan and Rob kick off their special four-part series on his life, starting with his early years.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Manchester City Guilty! The 1904/05 Scandal Sep 24, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

On this week's episode we travel back to one of the biggest financial scandals in early English football—the 1904-05 Manchester City scandal.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper unravel the events that saw Manchester City, fresh off their FA Cup win, embroiled in controversy over illegal player payments.

It Was What It Was explores how the Football Association’s wage cap led to the club’s downfall, forcing manager Tom Maley and 17 players—including star winger Billy Meredith—banned.

You’ll hear how this scandal not only rocked Manchester City but also paved the way for Manchester United's rise, reshaping the footballing landscape in ways that still echo today with City currently facing 115 charges as of September 2024.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Heroic Villains: Aston Villa's European Miracle Sep 17, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

As Aston Villa return to Champions League football this week, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take a deep dive into the club's most iconic moment: their 1982 European Cup triumph.

It Was What It Was revisits this historic victory, made even more remarkable by the fact that manager Ron Saunders resigned midway through the season, leaving Tony Barton to step in and guide Villa to European glory.

Jonathan and Rob walk us through the unforgettable campaign, which saw Villa travel to Germany and Ukraine before defeating Bayern Munich 1-0 in the final. The win became even more legendary when first-choice goalkeeper Jimmy Rimmer was forced off with an injury, only for his inexperienced replacement, Nigel Spink, to step up and deliver a crucial performance in just his second-ever first-team appearance, cementing his place in Villa's history on one of the club’s greatest nights.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

***Please note this episode was recorded before the death of the late Gary Shaw.***

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Messi: Making the GOAT Sep 10, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

This week, our hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dive into the extraordinary journey of Lionel Messi, widely regarded as the greatest footballer of all time.

With his 2022 World Cup triumph marking the pinnacle of an already legendary career, Jonathan and Rob take a journey back to Messi’s beginnings.

They explore his childhood in Rosario, the crucial role his family played in his development, and his time at Newell's Old Boys, where he faced and overcame a growth hormone deficiency that almost ended his dream before it began.

In this episode of It Was What It Was, they delve into his life-changing move to Barcelona at just 13, joining the iconic Class of '87 alongside future stars like Cesc Fàbregas and Gerard Piqué, where Messi would go on to become the greatest player in the club’s storied history.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Chelsea's Roman Empire: The Abramovich Takeover Sep 03, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was. This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the story of probably the most-consequential football club takeover ever: When Roman Abramovich bought Chelsea in 2003.

Before sportswashing was even a word and in an age when Financial Fair Play didn’t exist, we examine the background to the most-startling and unexpected deal in Premier League history. And the extraordinary impact it would make, as Chelsea splurged what was at the time an eye-watering £100m in that first summer transfer window, laying the foundations for Chelsea to become a super club that would win 18 major trophies in the Roman era.

It transformed the Premier League, threatened Fergie, ruined the latter years of Arsene Wenger’s career, caused UEFA to dream up new FFP rules to curb them and paved the way for the era of nation state investors at Manchester City, Paris St Germain and Newcastle United.

It Was What it Was goes back to that stunning summer which changed the game and debates whether football was ever the same after the Roman Conquest.

Please subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Puskas and Postecoglou: The Legacy of Ange Ball Aug 27, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

This week, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the connection between Ferenc Puskas and Ange Postecoglou, and how the Hungarian idol influenced the Australian coach.

Regarded as one of the greatest players of all time, Ferenc Puskas’s post-playing career saw him manage across the world, including stints in Spain, America, Greece, Saudi Arabia, and Australia. It was in Australia where Puskas, the manager, coached Postecoglou, the player, at South Melbourne Hellas.

Jonathan and Rob detail Ange Postecoglou’s life, including the influence of his Greek father, and how Puskás's coaching philosophy left a lasting impact on him. Discover how these experiences shaped Postecoglou’s approach to management and contributed to his success.

As Postecoglou gets underway in his second season with Tottenham Hotspur, join us to uncover the enduring legacy of Ferenc Puskas on one of today’s most innovative coaches.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Premier League’s Greatest Games: Liverpool 4-3 Newcastle – Part Two Aug 22, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In Part One, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the scene for Liverpool’s incredible 4-3 win over Newcastle in April 1996. We now delve into the game itself and the consequences that follow.

Having been 12-points clear in the run for the Premier League title, Jonathan and Rob provide an in-depth look into how this game symbolically ends Newcastle’s title chances and ultimately leads to Kevin Keegan leaving the club.

We look closely into the teams, the goals, the players and the atmosphere, as well the aftermath of the game, giving a real resonance of what will happen in football in the next 10 years.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Premier League’s Greatest Games: Liverpool 4-3 Newcastle – Part One Aug 20, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the true classic that was Liverpool v Newcastle in April 1996, as The Reds snatched a victory in the final moments in front of the Kop.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the backstory of the season, giving context coming into the game, including Newcastle’s 12 point-lead as they looked to be in the clear for the Premier League title.

The second part of this, which focuses on the game and the consequences that follow, will be out on Thursday 22nd August

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How Pep Guardiola Became A Football Genius Aug 13, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take an in-depth look at Pep Guardiola's journey to becoming a football legend.

Focusing on the early stages of his coaching career and the political landscape at Barcelona, Jonathan and Rob explain how the Catalonian club turned to Pep during a turbulent period. Under his leadership, Barcelona experienced its most successful era in history.

As we anticipate the 2024/25 Premier League campaign, where Pep aims for an unprecedented fifth consecutive league title at Manchester City, join us to discover how he evolved into the tactical mastermind celebrated as one of the greatest football managers of all time.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Chaos, Fury and Clough: Liverpool v Leeds, 1974 Aug 06, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into a game that was full of trouble -The 1974 Charity Shield at Wembley between Liverpool and Leeds, during a time when behaviour on and off the pitch was declining English football.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the social context and lead up to the game, including a new Liverpool under Bob Paisley and a new Leeds under Brian Clough as they head into the game with uncertainty on both sides.

Jonathan and Rob also provide a detailed analysis of the match itself, including key players, key incidents that lead to fighting on the pitch and the aftermath of the game on both clubs and English football.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Football's Dirtiest Ever Game: Battle of Santiago 1962 Jul 30, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

This week, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into one of football's dirtiest ever games: the infamous Battle of Santiago in 1962.

Regarded as one of the most brutal matches in football history, the Battle of Santiago saw host nation Chile face Italy in a violent and chaotic encounter at the World Cup.

Jonathan and Rob detail the events leading up to the game and the explosive incidents on the pitch, where the first foul was committed within 12 seconds, and armed police entered the field three times. They also explore the lasting impact this notorious match had on the world of football.

Discover the political and cultural tensions that fuelled the animosity between the teams, and hear about the controversy surrounding Chile's hosting of the World Cup just two years after a catastrophic earthquake.

Learn how this game led to significant changes in football's officiating and disciplinary procedures, including the invention of the yellow and red card system by the match referee, Ken Aston.

Join us to uncover the full story behind the Battle of Santiago, a match that remains a stark reminder of the sport's darker side.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Andrade: The Legend Before Pele! Jul 23, 2024

*This episode of It Was What It Was discusses issues including racism, with content that some listeners may find offensive.*

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the successful Uruguay National team of the 1920s and one their key players, Jose Leandro Andrade, who was perhaps one of the first to spark a global mania over a footballer.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the history of Uruguay, how they develop such an impressive team to became one of football’s first global powerhouses, winning gold in the 1924 and 1928 Olympics and lifting the first FIFA World Cup in 1930.

Jonathan and Rob also provide a detailed analysis of Uruguay’s style of play and their key players, with a particular focus on the life of Jose Leandro Andrade, his journey into football, his rise to fame and falling into poverty.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Goodbye Gareth: Ranking Southgate’s England Era Jul 17, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week's bonus episode, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper talk about Gareth Southgate and England's Euro 2024 tournament - which proved to be Southgate's last as the Three Lions manager.

Jonathan and Rob reflect on Euro 2024, before questioning where Southgate ranks amongst the greatest English managers - after guiding his country to two Euro finals and a World Cup semi-final after decades of underachievement.

Get in touch with the podcast on socials to let us know where you would place Southgate amongst England's managers.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Dezso Solti: Auschwitz Survivor, Match-fixer Jul 16, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the story of Dezso Solti, a complex character who was one of the most notorious and biggest match fixers in European football during the 1960s and 1970s.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into Solti’s extraordinary and horrific origin story in Auschwitz death camp as a Hungarian Jew in 1944, how he got out of Hungary and into Italy.

Jonathan and Rob provide a detailed analysis of Solti’s journey into Italian football, match fixing in this era, the bribing of match officials, including the semi-final of the 1965 European Cup and the evidence that leads to his banning from football.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Ban on Women's Football and its Resilient Rise Jul 09, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the 1920 Boxing Day game between Dick Kerr ladies and St Helens Ladies at Goodison, which remained the biggest crowd at a women’s game in England for over 90 years. It also appeared to be a historic turning point, as the FA would ban women’s football a year later on the 5th December 1921.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the growth of women’s football in the 19th-century, looking at the formation of Dick, Kerr Ladies in Preston during WW1, the powerhouse they would become in English football, the attention their football would attract and the large crowds it created.

Jonathan and Rob provide a detailed analysis of the lead-up to the game on Boxing Day that attracted 52,000 fans, raising money for wounded soldiers, the months that followed which led to the FA’s decision to ban women’s football and looking at how far we have come since.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The End of Sir Alf: The Fall of England's Greatest Manager, Part 2 Jul 04, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In Part One, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the scene for the qualification of the 1972 Euro quarter-final, where England were knocked out by West Germany. We now delve into the continuing years of decline as England failed to qualify for the following three major tournaments.

Having won the World Cup in 1966, Sir Alf Ramsey’s England side descend into struggle as Jonathan and Rob provide an in-depth look at where it goes wrong for England and how it came to the point where a World Cup winning manager was sacked by his country.

We look into England’s failure to qualify for the 1974 World Cup in their group with Wales and Poland, as Ramsey’s tactics and style of play led to his sacking, as well as the aftermath for the Three Lions.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The End of Sir Alf: The Fall of England's Greatest Manager, Part 1 Jul 02, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look into the decline of England's most successful manager Sir Alf Ramsey, exploring how his 1966 World Cup winners were beaten by a much-improved West Germany side over two quarter-final qualification legs for Euro 1972.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the tactical revolution of England under Alf Ramsey, from their World Cup win in 1966 to their descent in Euro 1972, as West Germany’s positional intelligence show that England were no longer the best in the world.

Jonathan and Rob provide a detailed analysis of Ramsey’s style of play, the build-up to the first leg quarter-final defeat at Wembley, the changing relationship between England and West Germany from 1966 to 1972 and the key players in those tournaments.

Our second part is out on Thursday 4th July.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Euro 1984: The Magic of Michel Platini Jun 25, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In this week’s episode, on its 40th Anniversary, we dive into Euro 1984, a tournament that marked a pivotal moment in French football history as they lifted a major tournament trophy for the first time.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the impact of Michel Platini, whose footballing prowess and leadership played a crucial role in guiding France to victory on their home turf. They also analyse how the tournament shaped European football and paved the way for future international competitions.

Jonathan and Rob provide a detailed analysis of the group stages, revisit the historic knockout stage clashes, including the semi-final regarded as the Euro’s greatest ever match between France and Portugal, which culminated in France’s triumphant 2-0 final win over Spain.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Euro 2012: Spain's Pinnacle in Poland & Ukraine Jun 18, 2024

In this week’s episode, we take an in-depth look at Euro 2012, a tournament fondly remembered as the crowning moment in Spain’s era of dominance, marking their third consecutive major win following Euro 2008 and the 2010 World Cup.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper kick things off by delving into the politics behind the decision to host the tournament in Poland and Ukraine, exploring how the host cities managed the logistical challenges and the lasting impact of the event.

Jonathan and Rob provide a comprehensive overview of the group stages, highlighting memorable moments such as Danny Welbeck’s back-heeled winner against Sweden. They then move on to iconic knockout stage moments, including Andrea Pirlo’s masterful penalty, Mario Balotelli’s unforgettable performance against Germany and Spain’s utterly dominant 4-0 victory over Italy in the final.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Euro 2004: Greek Glory, England’s Exit - Part Two Jun 13, 2024

Welcome back to The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In Part One, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the scene for the Euro 2004 knockout stages. Now, we delve into the life of Greece manager Otto Rehhagel, who orchestrated one of football’s greatest miracles at Euro 2004.

The tournament was a landmark for many nations, especially England, who dramatically lost on penalties to hosts Portugal in a thrilling match after Sven Goran-Eriksson’s star 18-year-old Wayne Rooney was injured.

Jonathan and Rob provide an in-depth look at the knockout stages, detailing how Greece astonishingly dethroned France, then defeated the Czech Republic in silver-goal extra time, before beating Portugal for the second time in the competition, having never previously won at a major international tournament.

If you enjoyed the podcast, please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Euro 2004: Greek Glory, England’s Exit - Part One Jun 11, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

With Euro 2024 approaching this week, we present a special two-part episode on Euro 2004, a tournament where underdogs Greece achieved one of international football’s greatest upsets.

Regarded as the one that got away from Sven-Goran Eriksson’s Golden Generation England team, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the scene with a full detailed look on the group stages.

From Portugal’s preparation as hosts to their opening defeat by eventual winners Greece and an 18 year-old Wayne Rooney propelling himself to an international icon, part one delves into the story surrounding the nations before the knock-out rounds.

Join us for part two on Thursday 13th June where Rob and Jonathan tell the story of Greece manager Otto Rehhagel and the path that led the way to one of football’s biggest ever shocks.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

United’s Treble: Sliding Doors to Barcelona Jun 04, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the sliding doors moments that lead to the Manchester United treble win in 1999.

In the years leading up to Sir Alex Ferguson's greatest achievement, we take a look at some of the key moments that could have changed the course of history: from Maurice Watkins recommending Alex Ferguson as the manager to replace Terry Venables as Barcelona manager in 1986 to Alan Hansen’s infamous comment on Match of the Day as well as United's youth system and signing Eric Cantona.

It Was What It Was gives a detailed look into the changes that took place at Old Trafford that paved the journey to the treble; including building the squad after the 1994 Champions League loss to Barcelona, new revenue at Old Trafford and the tactical and financial changes at the club.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Reds in Rome: Liverpool’s 1984 European Cup Story, Part Two May 30, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

In part two of our Reds in Rome story, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the events of the day of the 1984 European Cup final between Roma and Liverpool.

Having set the scene in part one of our two-part special, Jonathan and Rob reveal insightful stories from inside the Liverpool camp, the real hostilities their fans dealt with and how Joe Fagan’s side managed to win the first ever European Cup penalty shoot-out, which also unearthed Bruce Grobbelaar’s spaghetti legs.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Reds in Rome: Liverpool's 1984 European Cup Story, Part One May 28, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

This week we have a two part special focussing on Liverpool’s 1984 European Cup victory, 40 years on from one of the finest nights in the Reds' history.

Journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper discuss the events leading up to the final where Joe Fagan’s side beat Roma in their own stadium as they lifted their fourth European Cup in seven years having already won the league title and league cup in the same season.

In part one Jonathan and Rob explore where Liverpool were as a club and city along with reliving famous knockout stage contests, including dramatic wins over Benfica and Dinamo Bucuresti where tempers flared on and off the pitch.

Join us for part two on Thursday 30th May to listen to the historical European Cup final where Liverpool became the first side to win the final on penalties.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Farewell Jurgen: Klopp's origin story from Stuttgart to Liverpool May 21, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue the series with a unite insight into the life of Jurgen Klopp.

Klopp leaves his managerial role at Liverpool having ended their 30 year top flight trophy drought alongside a historic Champions League, FA Cup, League Cup and Club World Cup during a 9-year period that changed Anfield.

Rightly regarded as one of the most important managerial spells in the Reds history, Jonathan and Rob explore the events that made Klopp the charismatic manager he is today.

From his childhood and familial upbringing in Baden-Wurttemberg in Stuttgart to his playing then managerial stint at Mainz - that included an incredible final day of the season encounter - It Was What It Was gives a detailed look into the life of the German manager.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Part 2 : Arsenal '89: The Game That Changed Football Forever May 16, 2024

Welcome back to The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

On our second and final part of Arsenal ’89: The Game That Change Football Forever, journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper re-live the unforgettable final day of the 1988/89 campaign that seen Arsenal leapfrog Liverpool to the First Division title at Anfield.

George Graham’s Arsenal required a two-goal victory in the final match of the season against reigning champions Liverpool to overtake their opponents and pulled off the miracle through second-half goals from Alan Smith and a last gasp strike from Michael Thomas.

Jonathan and Rob discuss the stunning finale to the season, including the events of the day, celebrational aftermath and how the defining game changed English football forever.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Part 1: Arsenal '89: The Game That Changed Football Forever May 14, 2024

Welcome to the latest episode of The Overlap’s football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Hosted by journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper, we continue our series with a game regarded as one of the biggest in English football history as Arsenal snatched the First Division title from Liverpool at Anfield through Michael Thomas's late goal in a 2-0 win on the final day of the 1988/89 season.

In part one of two in our special, Rob and Jonathan set the scene to that famous finale; delving into Arsenal's rebuild under George Graham, Liverpool’s European dominance alongside the historical, social and TV context of the late 1980's.

Join us for part two on Thursday 16th May to hear the events of the one of the biggest matches in English history and what the aftermath meant for the game.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ta-ra Fergie May 07, 2024

Welcome to The Overlap’s brand-new football history podcast, It Was What It Was.

Hosted by journalists Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper, we kick off our series with the story behind one of the greatest managers of all time – Sir Alex Ferguson.

Sir Alex Ferguson won 38 major trophies in 26 years as Manchester United boss, including 13 Premier League titles, two Champions Leagues and five FA Cups during an unprecedented era of success.

But his period of dominance at Old Trafford followed a time of struggles, shocks and setbacks with many fans calling for the Scottish manager to be sacked before he won his first trophy four years into his reign.

Jonathan and Rob delve into how Sir Alex rejuvenated Manchester United, explaining how his arrival from Aberdeen transformed the club’s culture, why his forward-thinking approach for the youth team structure was so essential and which moments were vital in laying the foundations of footballing superiority that transformed the English game.

If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It Was What It Was: Preview May 07, 2024

Welcome to The Overlap's historical football podcast, It Was What It Was.

Each week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper will be talking about the key episodes in football history that have shaped the footballing world today.

The show will be discussing the best stories from football's past, giving insights to the personalities involved, providing details from behind the scenes and offering vital historical context.

If you enjoy the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Our TOPPODCAST Picks

Follow Us

Stay Connected

It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Related Podcasts

Links

Stay Connected