Irregular Warfare Podcast - Irregular Warfare Initiative

Latest Episodes:

Winning Without Fighting: Strategic Culture and Gray Zone Competition (Part 1) Aug 08, 2025

Show notes

Episode 132 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores how strategic culture shapes approaches to irregular warfare and competition in the gray zone. This is part one of a two-part series examining why nations conceptualize irregular warfare differently and how cultural biases affect competition below the threshold of armed conflict.

Our guests discuss why irregular warfare must be central to American grand strategy in an age of crisis and competition. Dr. Susan Bryant shares insights from her book "Winning Without Fighting," examining how American strategic culture - with its preference for binaries, belief that war is aberrant, and faith in technological solutions - creates disadvantages against adversaries operating in the gray zone. Drawing from their extensive operational and academic experience, both guests explore historical examples from Afghanistan, Iraq, and El Salvador to illustrate how cultural biases and quantification obsession undermine irregular warfare efforts.

Dr. Susan Bryant is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and Johns Hopkins University. A retired Army Colonel with 28 years of service, she is co-author of "Winning Without Fighting" and currently serves as Executive Director of Strategic Education International.

Dr. Thomas X. Hammes is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies at National Defense University. A retired Marine Corps Colonel with 30 years of service, he is the author of "The Sling and the Stone" and has extensive operational experience in insurgency and irregular warfare.

Don Edwards and Julia McClenon are the hosts for Episode 125. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Security Hybridization: U.S., China, and the Future of Global Security Assistance Jul 10, 2025

Show notes

Episode 131 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the growing phenomenon of "security hybridization," where countries receive simultaneous security assistance from both the United States and the People’s Republic of China. While the U.S. tends to emphasize regional defense, interoperability, and support for the global commons, China focuses on internal security, law enforcement training, and regime protection.
Our guests examine how this dual-track approach is reshaping global security partnerships—and what it means for the future of great power competition. Professor Sheena Chestnut Greitens offers insights from her recently publish article, Security without Exclusivity: Hybrid Alignment under U.S.-China Competition, while Jon Finer draws on his experience as former Deputy National Security Advisor to assess the implications for U.S. policy and strategy.

Operation Spider’s Web and the Future of Asymmetric Warfare Jun 25, 2025

Show notes

Episode 130 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast takes listeners inside Operation Spider’s Web—Ukraine’s bold campaign of long-range drone strikes targeting Russian military and industrial infrastructure.

Our guests begin by examining why Ukrainian defense planners opted for this unprecedented strike operation and how it was designed to disrupt Russian strategic depth. They then unpack the technical, operational, and strategic considerations that enabled the operation, including the role of commercial drones, asymmetric targeting, and irregular doctrine. The episode concludes with reflections on how Spider’s Web is reshaping our understanding of deep operations and irregular warfare in the 21st century.

Brigadier General Kip Kahler is the former Senior Defense Official and Defense Attaché to Ukraine, with over two decades of national service in strategic roles across the interagency and foreign militaries.

COL Brian Petit is a retired SF Army officer who teaches and consults on strategy, planning, special operations, and resistance. He is an adjunct for the Joint Special Operations University.

Kateryna Bondar is a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and a former advisor to the Ukrainian government, where she led reforms in defense and innovation. Her article, entitled How Ukraine’s Operation “Spider’s Web” Redefines Asymmetric Warfare, serves as the anchor for episode 130.

Agile, Adaptable, AFSOC: Building Edge in Contested Skies Jun 13, 2025

Show notes

Episode 129 examines how Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC) is recalibrating for great-power competition while still answering today’s crisis-response and counter-VEO demands. Lieutenant General Michael E. Conley and Dr Kerry Chávez join the Irregular Warfare Podcast to unpack strategy, technology, and talent development at the sharp edge of irregular warfare.

Our guests begin by outlining AFSOC’s new strategic guidance—“Raise Air Commandos, Win Tonight’s Fight, and Sustain Relevance through Adaptation”—and describe how it builds on earlier reforms to balance crisis-response duties with preparation for peer competition. They then explore the “democratized skies” created by low-cost uncrewed aircraft systems, discussing implications for pallet-dropped drone swarms, counter-UAS, and agile acquisition. Finally, the conversation turns to force design and human capital, offering insights on cultivating Air Commandos who can integrate AI-enabled decision aids and out-cycle adversaries inside the OODA loop.

Lieutenant General Michael E. Conley is the Commander of Air Force Special Operations Command. A career special-operations aviator with more than 2,400 flight hours in the UH-1, MH-53, and CV-22, he has commanded at the squadron, wing, and combined-joint task-force levels and previously served as Special Assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. His assignments have ranged from rescuing hostages to leading space-component forces, and his decorations include the Distinguished Service Medal and Bronze Star. As AFSOC’s chief, he oversees 20,800 Air Commandos and a $17 billion portfolio and champions “relevance through adaptation” to integrate SOF agility with Air Force mass.

Dr Kerry Chávez is an assistant professor in the Military & Strategic Studies Department at the U.S. Air Force Academy and an advisor to IWI’s Project Air & Space Power. She is also a two-time nonresident research fellow with the Modern War Institute at West Point and a fellow with the Institute for Global Affairs. Her work blends political science and data science to analyze emerging military technologies; she curates the MONSTr dataset on U.S. operations with novel capabilities and a pioneering global database of non-state-actor drone adoption. Dr Chávez regularly briefs DoD and industry leaders on counter-UAS strategy, synthetic data methods, and technology governance.

Five Years of IWI: From Podcast to Platform May 30, 2025

Show notes

Episode 128 marks a special milestone as the Irregular Warfare Podcast celebrates its five-year anniversary. Our guests reflect on the journey from a simple podcast idea in a graduate school classroom to a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization with over 70 volunteers worldwide. They share the origin story of IWI, trace its evolution from podcast to comprehensive platform including written content and fellowship programs, and discuss the strategic vision for the next five years—including new initiatives like a peer-reviewed journal and expanded efforts to reach broader audiences across the interagency and international community.

Kyle Atwell is an IWI Co-founder and current Chairman of the Board. An active-duty Army officer and Atlantic Council Senior Fellow, he holds a PhD from Princeton University and previously served as an Assistant Professor at West Point. Kyle co-founded the Irregular Warfare Initiative while in graduate school, recognizing the need to make academic insights accessible to practitioners in the field.

Shawna Sinnott is an IWI Co-founder and Chair of the Board of Advisors. She is an active-duty Marine Corps Major with operational deployments across the Middle East, West Asia, and Africa. Shawna holds a PhD in Political Science from Stanford University and previously served as IWI's Executive Director from 2020-2022.

Guido Torres is IWI's Executive Director and a Harvard National Security Fellow alumnus. A U.S. Army veteran with extensive experience in Latin America and special operations, he also serves as an Atlantic Council Senior Fellow. Guido's journey with IWI began as an avid listener of the podcast before joining as a volunteer and ultimately assuming executive leadership of the organization.

The Irregular Warfare Podcast is always seeking motivated prospective hosts. If you're a military officer on an educational sabbatical, contact us and get involved.

The Inheritance: America's Military After Two Decades of War Apr 22, 2025

Show notes

Episode 127 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the lasting impact of the Global War on Terrorism and what the United States has inherited—militarily, politically, and socially—after twenty years of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Our guests begin by examining how the U.S. military has historically navigated post-war transitions, particularly following protracted irregular conflicts. They then evaluate the consequences of the post-9/11 wars on the military institution, the broader national security establishment, and American society at large. The episode concludes with a forward-looking discussion about the strategic lessons learned and what they might mean for future great power competition and conflict.

The Honorable Mara Karlin is a Professor of Practice at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. She has held senior national security roles for six U.S. Secretaries of Defense and most recently served as Assistant Secretary of Defense for Strategy, Plans, and Capabilities. Her newly published book, The Inheritance: America’s Military After Two Decades of War, anchors today’s discussion.

Major General (retired) John Ferrari is a nonresident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. He focuses on the defense budget, reform, and acquisition, and previously served as director of program analysis and evaluation in the Army. Over his 32-year military career, he also served as a strategic planner for Operation Iraqi Freedom and as a deputy commander at the NATO Training Mission in Afghanistan.

Ben Jebb and Alisa Laufer are the hosts for this episode. Please reach out to Ben and Alisa with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Plausible Deniability: Proxy Actors and the Hybrid Threat Ecosystem Apr 04, 2025

Show notes

Episode 126 examines the evolution of proxy warfare and hybrid threats in the current security environment. Our guests explore how states increasingly delegate conflict to non-state actors and leverage hybrid approaches to achieve strategic objectives below the threshold of conventional war.

Our guests begin by exploring the conceptual foundations of proxy warfare and how it has evolved from historical conflicts to modern battlefields in Ukraine, Syria, and beyond. They then discuss the integration of hybrid threat tactics—spanning military, political, economic, and information domains—within proxy relationships. Finally, our guests analyze the implications for defense policy, offering insights into how both NATO and EU countries are adapting to counter these complex security challenges.

Dr. Vladimir Rauta is an Associate Professor of International Security with the School of Philosophy, Politics and Economics at the University of Reading. He was a 2023 Non-Resident Fellow with the Irregular Warfare Initiative. Vladimir's research examines the delegation of war from states to armed non-state actors in the contemporary security environment. He has published extensively in journals such as International Security and is one of the editors of the recently published Routledge Handbook of Proxy Wars.

Dr. Teija Tiilikainen is the Director of the European Centre of Excellence for Countering Hybrid Threats. Previously, she was the Director of the Finnish Institute of International Affairs and has served as Secretary of State at the Ministry for Foreign Affairs of Finland. Her extensive policy experience and research on European integration and security policy provide valuable insights into countering hybrid threats in the modern security landscape.

Ukraine's Hidden Front: The Strategic Impact of Resistance Operations Mar 14, 2025

Show notes

Episode 125 examines the impact of Ukraine's irregular warfare and resistance operations on its broader strategic objectives. Our guests discuss how Ukrainian resistance activities have evolved throughout the conflict and evaluate their strategic importance in the war against Russia.

Our guests begin by describing how Ukrainian resistance and irregular warfare activities developed through different phases of the war, from initial guerrilla tactics during the invasion to the sophisticated long-range attacks within Russian territory. They then assess whether these operations accomplish battlefield effects, their influence on escalation dynamics, and how they shape both Ukrainian and Russian populations' perceptions of the war. Finally, our guests provide insights on the synergy between conventional and special operations forces, the role of technology in resistance, and lessons that can be applied to future conflicts.

Lieutenant General (Ret.) Mark Hertling served for 38 years in the US Army as a tanker and cavalryman, serving at every level from tank platoon leader to Commander of the 7th Army. He retired in December 2012 after serving as the Commanding General of US Army Europe, where he led over 60,000 soldiers and partnered with the armies of 51 nations. LTG Hertling worked with Ukrainian forces as early as 2004 and has extensive experience in military transformation and coalition operations.

Dr. Alexandra Chinchilla is an Assistant Professor of International Affairs at Texas A&M's Bush School of Government and Public Service. Her research examines how powerful states use security cooperation tools to increase their influence over allies, partners, and proxies, with extensive research on the war in Ukraine. She has conducted fieldwork in Ukraine since the full-scale invasion and serves as an advisor to the IWI Special Project on Proxies and Partners.

The Fourth Age: The SOCOM Commander's Vision for the Future Feb 13, 2025

Show notes

Episode 124 explores the evolution and future of Special Operations Forces (SOF) through the lens of "The Fourth Age," a work of fictional intelligence examining future SOF capabilities and missions. Our guests discuss how SOF has evolved through distinct eras since World War II and examine how emerging technologies and domains will shape special operations in the 2030s and beyond.

Our guests begin by exploring the utility of storytelling and "useful fiction" in military education and planning. They then examine the historical development of SOF through three distinct ages, from its OSS origins through the Cold War and Global War on Terror. Finally, they discuss how SOF is evolving to meet future challenges through the integration of space, cyber, and emerging technologies while maintaining its core human element.

General Bryan P. Fenton is the Commander of U.S. Special Operations Command. He has previously commanded at every level from Detachment Command in 7th Special Forces Group through commanding Joint Special Operations Command. He is a graduate of the University of Notre Dame and has served on active duty for over 37 years.

Command Sergeant Major Shane Shorter is the Command Senior Enlisted Leader for U.S. Special Operations Command. He enlisted in the Army as an Infantryman in 1988 and joined special forces in 1992. He spent much of his career in 1st Special Forces Group and recently served as senior enlisted leader for Special Operations Command Pacific, U.S. Indo-Pacific Command, and the Joint Special Operations University.

August Cole is an author exploring the future of conflict through fiction and fictional intelligence storytelling. With P.W. Singer, he is the co-author of the bestseller "Ghost Fleet: A Novel of the Next World War" and "Burn In: A Novel of the Real Robotic Revolution." He is a co-founder and managing partner at Useful Fiction, focusing on defense and security.

Training for Victory: Lessons for Security Force Assistance Jan 28, 2025

Show notes

Episode 123 explores the critical role of security force assistance (SFA) and identifies the key factors that influence the effectiveness of building foreign armies.

Our guests start by situating SFA within the broader context of Washington’s national security strategy. They then analyze the variables that impact the success of security assistance, including the importance of language proficiency, advisor-to-force ratios, and the role of combat advising in shaping outcomes. Finally, they offer actionable recommendations for practitioners and policymakers to enhance the effectiveness of security force assistance in the future.

Dr. Frank Sobchak is a retired Special Forces colonel who served in various assignments in war and peace during his 26-year military career. He is Chair of Irregular Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute and serves as a Senior Fellow at the Global and National Security Institute. Dr. Sobchak’s newly published book, “Training for Victory,” examines security force assistance and serves as the anchor for today’s conversation.

JoAnn Naumann currently serves as the USASOC Command Sergeant Major. Over the course of her 28-year career, she has completed over fourteen deployments throughout the Middle East and Africa, and has served as the senior enlisted advisor for multiple organizations within the Special Operations community. CSM Naumann holds a bachelor’s degree from the College of William & Mary.

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