Irregular Warfare Podcast

South America in Competition Conference: Bonus Episode 1 Oct 24, 2025

Episode 138 is a bonus episode built out of conversations held with panelists from the 2025 Irregular Warfare Initiative and Special Operations Association of America South America in Competition Conference.

The South America in Competition Conference brought together over 250 researchers, practitioners, and members of industry for two days at the Carahsoft Headquarters in the DC area. The first day included panel discussions on irregular warfare challenges in the South America region. The second day included a detailed wargame with participation from a range of stakeholders, planned by the IWI Wargaming Division.

For this bonus episode, IWI Podcast Host Jackie Giunta recorded four short conversations with conference participants following their panel presentations.

First, Will Walker from Onebrief examines whether PRC strategy in South America is coercive or benign. Next, Adam Fife, the CEO of CenCore, discusses Chinese debt trap diplomacy. Third, Leland Lazarus discusses how China’s economic statecraft is another form of irregular warfare. Last, Dr. Evan Ellis, Professor of Latin American Studies at the U.S. Army War College, provides a broad overview of China’s strategy in South America.

Introducing and closing the episode are Doug Livermore, the IWI Director of Engagements, and Umar Ahmed Badami, Director of the IWI Wargaming Division. They also both planned this major event. Kyle Atwell provided editorial support for this episode.

If you have an idea for a future event or wargame IWI should run, want to get involved in events, or want to provide material support so IWI can continue these important conversations - reach out to Doug or Umar directly.

Subscribe to our monthly newsletter for access to our written content, upcoming community events, and other resources.

All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project.

Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa

Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Future of War Part II: On Their Own Oct 17, 2025

Episode 137 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast continues our four-part series on the future of war, pairing renowned author and futurist August Cole with senior special operations leaders to explore how tomorrow’s conflicts may unfold.

Our conversation centers on Cole’s short story On Their Own, which imagines U.S. Army Special Operations Forces advising a newly formed Thai commando unit amid Chinese-backed proxies, pervasive surveillance, organized crime, and accelerating technological change. The story spotlights how SOF teams may have to influence from the sidelines—helping partners integrate robotics, AI, and cyber tools—while competing for the strategic narrative in a contested Indo-Pacific environment.

Joining us for this episode is Major General Jeff VanAntwerp, Commander of Special Operations Command–Pacific (SOCPAC). Together with August Cole, MG VanAntwerp discusses how Army SOF is adapting to new technologies, why trust with partners remains a timeless necessity, and what qualities will continue to define special operators in the years ahead. The discussion underscores that while future operators will be hyper-enabled with sensors, drones, and advanced AI, the human dimension of warfare—trust, adaptability, and leadership—remains constant.

At the conclusion of the episode, listeners can hear a narrated excerpt from On Their Own, immersing them in the dilemmas SOF may face in the conflicts of the 2030s.

Insurgent Armies and State Formation after Victory Oct 03, 2025

Episode 136 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast examines the fate of victorious rebel groups after civil wars—and why some remain loyal to post-war governments while others fragment, defect, or even overthrow the regimes they helped create.

Our guests begin by exploring the core puzzle: conventional wisdom suggests that decisive victory produces stability, yet evidence shows that in more than half of cases, post-war militaries face crises within a decade. They then explain how wartime pressures shape the organizational choices of rebel groups—particularly the relationship between political leaders and field commanders—and how those choices carry forward into peacetime governance. Drawing on cases from Zimbabwe, Côte d’Ivoire, and across Africa, the discussion highlights why power-sharing arrangements often fail, why commitment problems undermine loyalty, and how the interests of commanders, rulers, and foreign partners diverge. Finally, the conversation turns to the limits of external security assistance, and what policymakers and practitioners should consider when working with post-conflict militaries.

Dr. Philip A. Martin is an assistant professor at George Mason University. His research specializes in political violence and civil wars, peacebuilding, and African politics. His article, Insurgent Armies: Military Obedience and State Formation after Rebel Victory, serves as the anchor for today’s conversation.

Brigadier General Allen J. Pepper is the commanding general of U.S. Army Security Assistance Command. A career foreign area officer with extensive experience across Africa, he has served in Mali, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and the Central African Republic.

Future of War Part I: Raiders at the Edge of Tomorrow Sep 19, 2025

Episode 135 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast kicks off a four-part series on the future of war, pairing renowned author and futurist August Cole with senior special operations leaders to explore how tomorrow’s conflicts may unfold.

Our conversation centers on Cole’s short story Safe Harbor II, which envisions Marine Raiders operating in a near-future environment saturated with proxy terrorism, relentless information warfare, and AI-enabled surveillance. The story highlights how SOF teams will grapple with great-power adversaries who weaponize terrorist groups to justify intervention, forcing small units to fight not only for tactical advantage but also to control the strategic narrative.

Joining us for this episode is Major General Peter Huntley, Commander of Marine Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC). Together with August Cole, MajGen Huntley discusses how MARSOC is adapting to new technologies, why trust with partners remains a timeless necessity, and what qualities will continue to define Raiders in the decades ahead. The discussion underscores that while future operators will be hyper-enabled with drones, sensors, and advanced AI, the human dimension of warfare—trust, adaptability, and leadership—remains constant.

At the conclusion of the episode, listeners will hear a narrated excerpt from Safe Harbor II, immersing them in the dilemmas Marine Raiders may face in the conflicts of 2040.

Ben Jebb and Don Edwards are the hosts for this episode. Please reach out to Ben and Don with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

The Boiling Moat: Urgent Steps to Defend Taiwan Sep 05, 2025

Episode 134 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the rising risks of conflict over Taiwan and how the United States and its allies can strengthen deterrence against Beijing.

Our guests begin by assessing why deterrence is faltering globally, from the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and how those events inform Chinese perceptions of American resolve. They then discuss the stakes of a Taiwan contingency—economic, ideological, and strategic—highlighting the island’s critical role in global semiconductor supply chains and as a thriving democracy on China’s periphery. The conversation turns to the balance of forces across the Strait, Taiwan’s defense culture, and the full spectrum of Chinese coercive activity, from gray-zone operations to potential military invasion. Finally, our guests offer recommendations for how Taiwan, the United States, and partners like Japan, Australia, and Europe can bolster deterrence before conflict breaks out.

Matt Pottinger is a distinguished national security professional who served as U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor from 2019 to 2021. He is the editor of The Boiling Moat, a new volume analyzing deterrence and security dynamics across the Taiwan Strait.

Matt Turpin is a former U.S. National Security Council Director for China and a retired U.S. Army officer. He is currently a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, where his research focuses on U.S.-China relations and strategic competition.

Ben Jebb and Katherine Michaelson are the hosts for this episode. Please reach out to Ben and Katherine with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Winning Without Fighting: Economic Power and Information Warfare (Part 2) Aug 22, 2025

Episode 133 is the second installment in our two-part series exploring how the United States can leverage non-kinetic instruments of power to compete effectively without resorting to military force.

Building on our previous discussion, our guests examine America's strategic blind spots in treating economics and information as support tools rather than primary domains of competition. They discuss the integration challenges across U.S. government agencies, highlighting how autocratic adversaries coordinate their instruments of power more effectively while the U.S. struggles with inter-agency dysfunction. The conversation explores the military's evolving role in peacetime competition, with insights from Afghanistan on the challenges of integrating all elements of American power. Our guests introduce the concept of "resilient interdependence" as an organizing principle for the 21st century—unlike Cold War containment, this approach emphasizes strengthening connections with allies while hardening soft targets like supply chains and digital infrastructure. Finally, they identify critically underused economic tools including export credits, development finance, outbound investment controls, and industrial policy that could strengthen America's competitive position against strategic rivals.

Lieutenant General David W. Barno (Ret.) is a Professor of Practice at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. During his thirty-year Army career, he commanded at every level including nineteen months as the senior American commander in Afghanistan, where he was responsible for 20,000 U.S. and coalition forces and implemented a new counterinsurgency strategy. Following his military service, he served as Director of the Near East South Asia Center at National Defense University and held positions at the Center for a New American Security. He is the co-author of "Adaptation Under Fire: How Militaries Change in Wartime."

Dr. Rebecca Patterson is the Associate Director of the Security Studies Program at Georgetown University and Professor of the Practice of International Affairs. A retired U.S. Army officer with over 22 years of experience, she served in Thailand, Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan. She previously served as Deputy Director in the Office of Peacekeeping Operations, Sanctions, and Counter-terrorism at the State Department. She is the author of "The Challenge of Nation-Building: Implementing Effective Innovation in the U.S. Army from World War II to the Iraq War" and the recently published "Winning Without Fighting."

Don Edwards and Jackie Giunta are the hosts for Episode 133. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Winning Without Fighting: Strategic Culture and Gray Zone Competition (Part 1) Aug 08, 2025

Episode 132 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores how strategic culture shapes approaches to irregular warfare and competition in the gray zone. This is part one of a two-part series examining why nations conceptualize irregular warfare differently and how cultural biases affect competition below the threshold of armed conflict.

Our guests discuss why irregular warfare must be central to American grand strategy in an age of crisis and competition. Dr. Susan Bryant shares insights from her book "Winning Without Fighting," examining how American strategic culture - with its preference for binaries, belief that war is aberrant, and faith in technological solutions - creates disadvantages against adversaries operating in the gray zone. Drawing from their extensive operational and academic experience, both guests explore historical examples from Afghanistan, Iraq, and El Salvador to illustrate how cultural biases and quantification obsession undermine irregular warfare efforts.

Dr. Susan Bryant is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and Johns Hopkins University. A retired Army Colonel with 28 years of service, she is co-author of "Winning Without Fighting" and currently serves as Executive Director of Strategic Education International.

Dr. Thomas X. Hammes is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies at National Defense University. A retired Marine Corps Colonel with 30 years of service, he is the author of "The Sling and the Stone" and has extensive operational experience in insurgency and irregular warfare.

Don Edwards and Julia McClenon are the hosts for Episode 125. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Winning Without Fighting: Strategic Culture and Gray Zone Competition (Part 1) Aug 08, 2025

Episode 132 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores how strategic culture shapes approaches to irregular warfare and competition in the gray zone. This is part one of a two-part series examining why nations conceptualize irregular warfare differently and how cultural biases affect competition below the threshold of armed conflict.

Our guests discuss why irregular warfare must be central to American grand strategy in an age of crisis and competition. Dr. Susan Bryant shares insights from her book "Winning Without Fighting," examining how American strategic culture - with its preference for binaries, belief that war is aberrant, and faith in technological solutions - creates disadvantages against adversaries operating in the gray zone. Drawing from their extensive operational and academic experience, both guests explore historical examples from Afghanistan, Iraq, and El Salvador to illustrate how cultural biases and quantification obsession undermine irregular warfare efforts.

Dr. Susan Bryant is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and Johns Hopkins University. A retired Army Colonel with 28 years of service, she is co-author of "Winning Without Fighting" and currently serves as Executive Director of Strategic Education International.

Dr. Thomas X. Hammes is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies at National Defense University. A retired Marine Corps Colonel with 30 years of service, he is the author of "The Sling and the Stone" and has extensive operational experience in insurgency and irregular warfare.

Don Edwards and Julia McClenon are the hosts for Episode 125. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Security Hybridization: U.S., China, and the Future of Global Security Assistance Jul 10, 2025

Episode 131 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the growing phenomenon of "security hybridization," where countries receive simultaneous security assistance from both the United States and the People’s Republic of China. While the U.S. tends to emphasize regional defense, interoperability, and support for the global commons, China focuses on internal security, law enforcement training, and regime protection.
Our guests examine how this dual-track approach is reshaping global security partnerships—and what it means for the future of great power competition. Professor Sheena Chestnut Greitens offers insights from her recently publish article, Security without Exclusivity: Hybrid Alignment under U.S.-China Competition, while Jon Finer draws on his experience as former Deputy National Security Advisor to assess the implications for U.S. policy and strategy.

Operation Spider’s Web and the Future of Asymmetric Warfare Jun 25, 2025

Episode 130 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast takes listeners inside Operation Spider’s Web—Ukraine’s bold campaign of long-range drone strikes targeting Russian military and industrial infrastructure.

Our guests begin by examining why Ukrainian defense planners opted for this unprecedented strike operation and how it was designed to disrupt Russian strategic depth. They then unpack the technical, operational, and strategic considerations that enabled the operation, including the role of commercial drones, asymmetric targeting, and irregular doctrine. The episode concludes with reflections on how Spider’s Web is reshaping our understanding of deep operations and irregular warfare in the 21st century.

Brigadier General Kip Kahler is the former Senior Defense Official and Defense Attaché to Ukraine, with over two decades of national service in strategic roles across the interagency and foreign militaries.

COL Brian Petit is a retired SF Army officer who teaches and consults on strategy, planning, special operations, and resistance. He is an adjunct for the Joint Special Operations University.

Kateryna Bondar is a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and a former advisor to the Ukrainian government, where she led reforms in defense and innovation. Her article, entitled How Ukraine’s Operation “Spider’s Web” Redefines Asymmetric Warfare, serves as the anchor for episode 130.

Agile, Adaptable, AFSOC: Building Edge in Contested Skies Jun 13, 2025

Episode 129 examines how Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC) is recalibrating for great-power competition while still answering today’s crisis-response and counter-VEO demands. Lieutenant General Michael E. Conley and Dr Kerry Chávez join the Irregular Warfare Podcast to unpack strategy, technology, and talent development at the sharp edge of irregular warfare.

Our guests begin by outlining AFSOC’s new strategic guidance—“Raise Air Commandos, Win Tonight’s Fight, and Sustain Relevance through Adaptation”—and describe how it builds on earlier reforms to balance crisis-response duties with preparation for peer competition. They then explore the “democratized skies” created by low-cost uncrewed aircraft systems, discussing implications for pallet-dropped drone swarms, counter-UAS, and agile acquisition. Finally, the conversation turns to force design and human capital, offering insights on cultivating Air Commandos who can integrate AI-enabled decision aids and out-cycle adversaries inside the OODA loop.

Lieutenant General Michael E. Conley is the Commander of Air Force Special Operations Command. A career special-operations aviator with more than 2,400 flight hours in the UH-1, MH-53, and CV-22, he has commanded at the squadron, wing, and combined-joint task-force levels and previously served as Special Assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. His assignments have ranged from rescuing hostages to leading space-component forces, and his decorations include the Distinguished Service Medal and Bronze Star. As AFSOC’s chief, he oversees 20,800 Air Commandos and a $17 billion portfolio and champions “relevance through adaptation” to integrate SOF agility with Air Force mass.

Dr Kerry Chávez is an assistant professor in the Military & Strategic Studies Department at the U.S. Air Force Academy and an advisor to IWI’s Project Air & Space Power. She is also a two-time nonresident research fellow with the Modern War Institute at West Point and a fellow with the Institute for Global Affairs. Her work blends political science and data science to analyze emerging military technologies; she curates the MONSTr dataset on U.S. operations with novel capabilities and a pioneering global database of non-state-actor drone adoption. Dr Chávez regularly briefs DoD and industry leaders on counter-UAS strategy, synthetic data methods, and technology governance.

Five Years of IWI: From Podcast to Platform May 30, 2025

Episode 128 marks a special milestone as the Irregular Warfare Podcast celebrates its five-year anniversary. Our guests reflect on the journey from a simple podcast idea in a graduate school classroom to a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization with over 70 volunteers worldwide. They share the origin story of IWI, trace its evolution from podcast to comprehensive platform including written content and fellowship programs, and discuss the strategic vision for the next five years—including new initiatives like a peer-reviewed journal and expanded efforts to reach broader audiences across the interagency and international community.

Kyle Atwell is an IWI Co-founder and current Chairman of the Board. An active-duty Army officer and Atlantic Council Senior Fellow, he holds a PhD from Princeton University and previously served as an Assistant Professor at West Point. Kyle co-founded the Irregular Warfare Initiative while in graduate school, recognizing the need to make academic insights accessible to practitioners in the field.

Shawna Sinnott is an IWI Co-founder and Chair of the Board of Advisors. She is an active-duty Marine Corps Major with operational deployments across the Middle East, West Asia, and Africa. Shawna holds a PhD in Political Science from Stanford University and previously served as IWI's Executive Director from 2020-2022.

Guido Torres is IWI's Executive Director and a Harvard National Security Fellow alumnus. A U.S. Army veteran with extensive experience in Latin America and special operations, he also serves as an Atlantic Council Senior Fellow. Guido's journey with IWI began as an avid listener of the podcast before joining as a volunteer and ultimately assuming executive leadership of the organization.

The Irregular Warfare Podcast is always seeking motivated prospective hosts. If you're a military officer on an educational sabbatical, contact us and get involved.

The Inheritance: America's Military After Two Decades of War Apr 22, 2025

Episode 127 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the lasting impact of the Global War on Terrorism and what the United States has inherited—militarily, politically, and socially—after twenty years of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Our guests begin by examining how the U.S. military has historically navigated post-war transitions, particularly following protracted irregular conflicts. They then evaluate the consequences of the post-9/11 wars on the military institution, the broader national security establishment, and American society at large. The episode concludes with a forward-looking discussion about the strategic lessons learned and what they might mean for future great power competition and conflict.

The Honorable Mara Karlin is a Professor of Practice at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. She has held senior national security roles for six U.S. Secretaries of Defense and most recently served as Assistant Secretary of Defense for Strategy, Plans, and Capabilities. Her newly published book, The Inheritance: America’s Military After Two Decades of War, anchors today’s discussion.

Major General (retired) John Ferrari is a nonresident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. He focuses on the defense budget, reform, and acquisition, and previously served as director of program analysis and evaluation in the Army. Over his 32-year military career, he also served as a strategic planner for Operation Iraqi Freedom and as a deputy commander at the NATO Training Mission in Afghanistan.

Ben Jebb and Alisa Laufer are the hosts for this episode. Please reach out to Ben and Alisa with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Plausible Deniability: Proxy Actors and the Hybrid Threat Ecosystem Apr 04, 2025

Episode 126 examines the evolution of proxy warfare and hybrid threats in the current security environment. Our guests explore how states increasingly delegate conflict to non-state actors and leverage hybrid approaches to achieve strategic objectives below the threshold of conventional war.

Our guests begin by exploring the conceptual foundations of proxy warfare and how it has evolved from historical conflicts to modern battlefields in Ukraine, Syria, and beyond. They then discuss the integration of hybrid threat tactics—spanning military, political, economic, and information domains—within proxy relationships. Finally, our guests analyze the implications for defense policy, offering insights into how both NATO and EU countries are adapting to counter these complex security challenges.

Dr. Vladimir Rauta is an Associate Professor of International Security with the School of Philosophy, Politics and Economics at the University of Reading. He was a 2023 Non-Resident Fellow with the Irregular Warfare Initiative. Vladimir's research examines the delegation of war from states to armed non-state actors in the contemporary security environment. He has published extensively in journals such as International Security and is one of the editors of the recently published Routledge Handbook of Proxy Wars.

Dr. Teija Tiilikainen is the Director of the European Centre of Excellence for Countering Hybrid Threats. Previously, she was the Director of the Finnish Institute of International Affairs and has served as Secretary of State at the Ministry for Foreign Affairs of Finland. Her extensive policy experience and research on European integration and security policy provide valuable insights into countering hybrid threats in the modern security landscape.

Ukraine's Hidden Front: The Strategic Impact of Resistance Operations Mar 14, 2025

Episode 125 examines the impact of Ukraine's irregular warfare and resistance operations on its broader strategic objectives. Our guests discuss how Ukrainian resistance activities have evolved throughout the conflict and evaluate their strategic importance in the war against Russia.

Our guests begin by describing how Ukrainian resistance and irregular warfare activities developed through different phases of the war, from initial guerrilla tactics during the invasion to the sophisticated long-range attacks within Russian territory. They then assess whether these operations accomplish battlefield effects, their influence on escalation dynamics, and how they shape both Ukrainian and Russian populations' perceptions of the war. Finally, our guests provide insights on the synergy between conventional and special operations forces, the role of technology in resistance, and lessons that can be applied to future conflicts.

Lieutenant General (Ret.) Mark Hertling served for 38 years in the US Army as a tanker and cavalryman, serving at every level from tank platoon leader to Commander of the 7th Army. He retired in December 2012 after serving as the Commanding General of US Army Europe, where he led over 60,000 soldiers and partnered with the armies of 51 nations. LTG Hertling worked with Ukrainian forces as early as 2004 and has extensive experience in military transformation and coalition operations.

Dr. Alexandra Chinchilla is an Assistant Professor of International Affairs at Texas A&M's Bush School of Government and Public Service. Her research examines how powerful states use security cooperation tools to increase their influence over allies, partners, and proxies, with extensive research on the war in Ukraine. She has conducted fieldwork in Ukraine since the full-scale invasion and serves as an advisor to the IWI Special Project on Proxies and Partners.

The Fourth Age: The SOCOM Commander's Vision for the Future Feb 13, 2025

Episode 124 explores the evolution and future of Special Operations Forces (SOF) through the lens of "The Fourth Age," a work of fictional intelligence examining future SOF capabilities and missions. Our guests discuss how SOF has evolved through distinct eras since World War II and examine how emerging technologies and domains will shape special operations in the 2030s and beyond.

Our guests begin by exploring the utility of storytelling and "useful fiction" in military education and planning. They then examine the historical development of SOF through three distinct ages, from its OSS origins through the Cold War and Global War on Terror. Finally, they discuss how SOF is evolving to meet future challenges through the integration of space, cyber, and emerging technologies while maintaining its core human element.

General Bryan P. Fenton is the Commander of U.S. Special Operations Command. He has previously commanded at every level from Detachment Command in 7th Special Forces Group through commanding Joint Special Operations Command. He is a graduate of the University of Notre Dame and has served on active duty for over 37 years.

Command Sergeant Major Shane Shorter is the Command Senior Enlisted Leader for U.S. Special Operations Command. He enlisted in the Army as an Infantryman in 1988 and joined special forces in 1992. He spent much of his career in 1st Special Forces Group and recently served as senior enlisted leader for Special Operations Command Pacific, U.S. Indo-Pacific Command, and the Joint Special Operations University.

August Cole is an author exploring the future of conflict through fiction and fictional intelligence storytelling. With P.W. Singer, he is the co-author of the bestseller "Ghost Fleet: A Novel of the Next World War" and "Burn In: A Novel of the Real Robotic Revolution." He is a co-founder and managing partner at Useful Fiction, focusing on defense and security.

Training for Victory: Lessons for Security Force Assistance Jan 28, 2025

Episode 123 explores the critical role of security force assistance (SFA) and identifies the key factors that influence the effectiveness of building foreign armies.

Our guests start by situating SFA within the broader context of Washington’s national security strategy. They then analyze the variables that impact the success of security assistance, including the importance of language proficiency, advisor-to-force ratios, and the role of combat advising in shaping outcomes. Finally, they offer actionable recommendations for practitioners and policymakers to enhance the effectiveness of security force assistance in the future.

Dr. Frank Sobchak is a retired Special Forces colonel who served in various assignments in war and peace during his 26-year military career. He is Chair of Irregular Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute and serves as a Senior Fellow at the Global and National Security Institute. Dr. Sobchak’s newly published book, “Training for Victory,” examines security force assistance and serves as the anchor for today’s conversation.

JoAnn Naumann currently serves as the USASOC Command Sergeant Major. Over the course of her 28-year career, she has completed over fourteen deployments throughout the Middle East and Africa, and has served as the senior enlisted advisor for multiple organizations within the Special Operations community. CSM Naumann holds a bachelor’s degree from the College of William & Mary.

Theory vs. Practice: What is Irregular War? Jan 10, 2025

Episode 122 examines a unique theory on Irregular War that challenges both historical and contemporary frameworks on the topic. The guests conduct an in-depth discussion and debate over the complexities of Irregular War and its implications for the U.S. in future conflicts throughout the globe.

Our guests define and discuss the various terminology commonly used amongst the irregular warfare community as the foundation for introducing the concept of the “dysfunctional sovereign.” They then debate the strengths and weaknesses of this theory of irregular war and its utility within the context of the current global threat environment. Our guests then provide insight into understanding the importance of both allied and adversarial perspectives on the subject, the shortcomings of current U.S. military doctrine related to irregular war, and how the U.S. should adapt its approach in the future. Lastly, they provide recommendations for how policymakers and practitioners can better approach irregular warfare in the future.

Jonathan Hackett is a U.S. Marine with two decades of experience running complex intelligence operations and special activities in dozens of countries across four continents. He finished his military career leading the only formal school in the Marine Corps making military advisors for our allies and partners. During his time in the Marine Corps, he held positions at the Defense Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency, and Special Operations Command prior to teaching in Dam Neck, Virginia. In addition to his book Theory of Irregular War, Jonathan writes extensively on security cooperation, irregular conflicts, and clandestine intelligence activities.

Dr. Sandor Fabian is a defense Contractor at Morgan6 LLC. supporting the Irregular Warfare Center as deputy regional advisor for Europe and Africa. Dr. Fabian is a former Hungarian Special Forces officer with 20+ years of military experience and has served in multiple national and international assignments including the Assessment and Evaluation Branch head at the NATO Special Operations Headquarters. Dr. Fabian has published numerous journal articles and op-eds on resistance, special operations, small countries’ defense frameworks, U.S. security assistance programs, and is the author of the book titled, Irregular Warfare: The future Military Strategy for Small States.

Below the Threshold: China's Strategy of Armed Coercion Dec 27, 2024

Episode 121 explores China's use of armed coercion and its implications for irregular warfare with James Siebens and Jimmy Wang.

Our guests begin by examining how China employs both military and paramilitary forces to advance its territorial claims in disputed areas. They then discuss how psychological warfare, lawfare, and maritime operations intersect in the Indo-Pacific region, highlighting China's sophisticated approach to coercion below the threshold of armed conflict. Finally, our guests offer insights into effective deterrence strategies and policy recommendations for addressing China's coercive activities in the region.

James Siebens is a Fellow at the Stimson Center and author of "China's Use of Armed Coercion." His research focuses on international security, with particular emphasis on analyzing gray zone conflicts and military coercion. Through his work, he examines how nations employ armed forces to advance political objectives without engaging in sustained conflict, providing valuable insights into modern strategic competition.

Jimmy Wang is a Non-Resident Fellow at the Stimson Center and former Navy Foreign Area Officer. During his distinguished military career, he served as Northeast Asia Desk Officer for the Chief of Naval Operations and advised U.S. Pacific Fleet on Chinese naval affairs. His firsthand experience in planning and executing Military Maritime Consultative Agreement talks with China provides unique perspectives on maritime security dynamics in the Indo-Pacific region.

Culture, Access, Influence: The FAO Advantage in Irregular Warfare Dec 13, 2024

Episode 120 explores the critical role of Foreign Area Officers (FAOs) in irregular warfare and strategic competition with Mike Burgoyne and Jim Marckwardt.

Our guests examine the foundational aspects of the FAO program and its evolution, highlighting how FAOs serve as "Pentagon diplomats" maintaining critical defense relationships worldwide. They then discuss how FAOs excel in the gray zone between peace and war, exploring case studies from Plan Colombia to Afghanistan. Finally, our guests offer insights into how senior leaders can better utilize FAO expertise in developing and implementing irregular warfare strategies.

Michael Burgoyne is a retired U.S. Army Colonel, Assistant Professor of Practice at the University of Arizona, and a PhD candidate at King's College London. His extensive experience includes serving as Senior Defense Official in Guatemala, Defense Attaché in Afghanistan, and Army Attaché in Mexico. As a Foreign Area Officer, he developed advanced language capabilities and regional expertise across Latin America. He holds master's degrees in Security Studies from Georgetown University and Strategic Studies from the U.S. Army War College, and is the coauthor of "The Defense of Jisr al-Doreaa," a tactical primer on modern counterinsurgency.

Albert "Jim" Marckwardt is a retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel, Administrator and Adjunct Associate Professor at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), and Associate Professor & Faculty Lead at Defense Security Cooperation University. His extensive experience includes serving as Country Director at the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Policy, where he formulated defense policy for Colombia and Venezuela, and as Political Military Advisor at Joint Task Force Bravo in Honduras. He holds a Doctor of International Affairs from Johns Hopkins SAIS and brings over 30 years of leadership experience spanning combat operations, security cooperation, international diplomacy, and policy development.

Sneaky Wars in the Indo-Pacific Nov 29, 2024

Episode 119 discusses irregular warfare in the Indo-Pacific with Dr. Sean McFate, and COL Ed Croot.

Our guests discuss the evolving landscape of irregular warfare. They critique the conventional vs. irregular warfare paradigm, introduce the concept of 'sneaky war,' and explore the importance of unconventional strategies in countering global adversaries like China. Finally the conversation delves into the interplay between conventional and irregular tactics, the rise of mercenaries like the Wagner Group, and strategies to counter disinformation.

Dr. Sean McFate is an author, novelist, and national security expert. He holds three professorships: Georgetown University, National Defense University, and Syracuse University. His diverse career includes roles as a U.S. Army paratrooper, private military contractor, and international business executive, with extensive experience in conflict zones and political risk consulting. McFate has written critically acclaimed non-fiction, including The New Rules of War.

COL Ed Croot is an active-duty army officer currently serving in Ft Liberty. Ed has years of experience serving the special operations and intelligence communities across the Middle East and Indo-Pacific. Ed has served from the tactical to the strategic levels of command and most recently as the Operations Director for the Special Operations Command - Pacific.

SOF’s Role in Conflict Nov 15, 2024

Episode 118 focuses on SOF in Conflict. The podcast falls within the SOF Special Project. Contact Director SOF Adam Darnley-Stuart to join the team.

Episode 118 of the Irregular Warfare podcast explores the definitions of conflict and SOFs value proposition to the joint force. Our guests discuss the unique capabilities and humans required to build a capable and credible Special Operations Force to prepare the theater and set the conditions if conflict arises. Finally, our guests offer insights into the need to focus on permissions, mandates and authorities to enable full employment of the Special Operations Force.

The Honorable Chris Maier is the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special
Operations and Low-Intensity Conflict. Chris oversees and advocates for Special Operations and Irregular Warfare throughout the Department of Defense to ensure these capabilities are resourced, ready, and properly employed in accordance with the National Defense Strategy.

Colonel Patrick Nelson is the Commander of the 7th Special Forces Group. His command assignments include: 24 months as Commander, Special Forces Operational Detachment- Alpha 726, deploying to Ecuador, Paraguay, and Afghanistan. He also spent 12 months in support of Operation Enduring Freedom/Afghanistan; 24 months as commander, 2nd Battalion where he deployed twice to Afghanistan in support of Operation Freedom Sentinel.

Adapting to the Unpredictable: Climate’s Impact on Irregular Warfare Oct 31, 2024

Episode 117 examines the intersection of climate change, national security, and irregular warfare, with a particular focus on how environmental changes are reshaping global security challenges from the Arctic to the Pacific Islands.

Our guests begin by exploring pivotal moments in the evolution of environmental security and its impact on national defense policy. They then discuss how climate-related changes affect military operations and strategic partnerships, particularly in the Pacific region. The conversation continues with an analysis of how both state and non-state actors leverage environmental crises in irregular warfare tactics. They conclude by offering policy recommendations for addressing climate security challenges and building resilient international partnerships.

Sherri Goodman is a Senior Fellow at the Wilson Center's Environmental Change and Security Program and Polar Institute. As the former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Environmental Security, she coined the term "threat multiplier" to describe climate change's impact on national security. She has served on numerous advisory boards and is the author of "Threat Multiplier: Climate, Military Leadership, and the Fight for Global Security."

Ambassador John Hennessey-Niland is a Professor of Practice at the Bush School of Government and Public Service. As the former U.S. Ambassador to Palau, he brings extensive experience in Pacific region affairs. His previous roles include serving as the foreign policy advisor to the Commander of U.S. Marine Corps Forces Pacific, and he has held various diplomatic positions across Europe and the Pacific, providing him with unique insights into the intersection of environmental security and irregular warfare.

SOF and Influence Activities Oct 17, 2024

Episode 116 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the role of Special Operations Forces (SOF) in influence activities, featuring insights from Professor Martijn Kitson and Major General Ron Smits. The guests discuss the value proposition of SOF in influence operations, emphasizing their ability to integrate various capabilities for maximum effect. They delve into the importance of understanding local environments, the challenges of conducting influence campaigns across different cultural and legal contexts, and the evolving role of European SOF in global operations. The conversation highlights the need for specialized training, diverse skill sets within SOF units, and the importance of adapting to new forms of warfare, including resistance operations in highly urbanized and cyber environments. The episode provides valuable perspectives on the future of SOF and their critical role in addressing complex security challenges in the 21st century.

Martijn Kitzen is a Professor and the Chair of Irregular Warfare and Special Operations, Netherlands Defence Academy (NLDA) in the Netherlands, and formerly served in the Royal Netherlands Army and Air Force. He Co-Edited The Conduct of War in the 21st Century (Routledge, 2021), and has written dozens of articles on coalition operations, counterinsurgency, and asymmetric conflict, to include serving as academic advisor for the revision of NATO’s AJP 3.4.4 (Counterinsurgency).

Major General Ron Smits was the Commander of Netherlands Special Operations Command. Notable positions include Head of the Manoeuvre Division within the Directorate of Operational Policy, Requirements and Plans; Chief of Staff with 43rd Mechanised Brigade; Commander of Training Command in Ahmersoort; Commander of 11th Air Mobile Brigade; and Special Operations Commander from 2021 to 2024.

Adam Darnley-Stuart and Don Edwards are the hosts for this episode. Please reach out to Ben and Matt with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

The Stability Instability Paradox: How Nuclear Weapons Incentivize Irregular Warfare Oct 03, 2024

Disclaimer: Episode 115 is a re-release of our original Episode 96, which explored the 1999 Kargil Conflict and its implications for irregular warfare in South Asia. Due to an unfortunate data corruption issue with our original file, we are re-publishing this important discussion. The content remains as relevant and insightful as when it first aired, featuring our distinguished guests Professor Sumit Ganguly and Professor Tricia Bacon.
Our guests kick off by exploring the regional security dynamics germane to South Asia. They delve into the impact of nuclear weapons on fostering irregular warfare strategies, highlighting the specific ways in which the acquisition of nuclear capabilities by India and Pakistan has reshaped their relationship. This shift has driven Pakistan towards a heightened dependence on proxy forces to achieve its political objectives. The discussion culminates in a focused analysis of the bilateral relationship between New Delhi and Islamabad, offering a clear and insightful perspective on the evolving dynamics between the two nations.

Professor Sumit Ganguly is a specialist on the contemporary politics of South Asia and a distinguished professor of political science at Indiana University. He currently serves as the Editor-in-Chief of the International Studies Review, and in 2019, Professor Ganguly authored a Foreign Affairs article entitled, “Why the India-Pakistan Crisis Isn’t Likely to Turn Nuclear,” which serves as the anchor for episode 96.

Professor Tricia Bacon is an Associate Professor at American University’s School of Public Affairs. Prior to teaching at American, Professor Bacon worked on counterterrorism for over ten years at the Department of State, including in the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, the Bureau of Counterterrorism, and the Bureau of Diplomatic Security. Her work on counterterrorism in the intelligence community has received numerous accolades.

DIU: Silicon Valley Meets the Modern Battlefield Sep 20, 2024

Episode 114 examines the formation of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU) and its mission to integrate Silicon Valley technology within the Department of Defense innovation sphere. The guests are the co-authors of Unit X: How the Pentagon and Silicon Valley are Transforming the Future of War, which is the foundation for the conversation.

Our guests begin by outlining DIU’s origin and mission emphasizing the importance of commercial technology in deterring and winning future conflicts. Our guests then discuss the challenges DIU faced with skepticism about the role of young companies in Silicon Valley and the bureaucratic problems associated with the DoD’s current budgeting and acquisition processes. They then provide insight into DIU’s core concept of operationalizing commercial technology faster than adversaries as a mean of supporting the National Defense Strategy. Lastly, they discuss adversarial approaches to innovation and use examples from both historical and contemporary conflicts to highlight important lessons learned for policy makers and practitioners.

Afghanistan Three Years Later: Alliances and Rivalries Sep 06, 2024

Episode 113 examines the challenges presented by the Islamic State Khorasan (ISK) in Afghanistan within the context of the three-year anniversary of U.S. withdrawal from the region.

Our guests share their extensive backgrounds, research, and practical experience related to the emergence of ISK in Afghanistan and Pakistan. They define the current operational environment that exists in the region with a particular focus on the power vacuum created by U.S. withdrawal in August of 2021. They then delve into how ISK adopted a two-pronged strategy of forging key alliances and rivalries to exploit tensions and build a diverse talent pipeline for their organization. Our guests also offer insight into the challenges of defining and addressing the ISK threat by evaluating the feasibility and limitations of “over-the-horizon” counterterrorism capabilities. Finally, they provide policy and strategy considerations for the future of counterterrorism operations.

Andrew Mines is a senior program specialist in the Asia Center at the United States Institute of Peace. He is the co-author of the book, The Islamic State in Afghanistan and Pakistan: Strategic Alliances and Rivalries, which is the foundation for today’s conversation.

LTC Paul Lushenko is an Assistant Professor and the Director of Special Operations at the U.S. Army War College. He earned his Ph.D. and M.A. in International Relations from Cornell University. Paul has deployed continuously, directing intelligence operations at the Battalion, Combined Task Force, and Joint Task Force levels. In his most recent operational assignment, Paul served as the Senior Intelligence Officer for the Joint Special Operations Task Force in Afghanistan.

Frank Struzinski and Julia McClenon are the hosts for Episode 113. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

The Irregular Warfare Podcast is a production of the Irregular Warfare Initiative (IWI). We are a team of volunteers dedicated to bridging the gap between scholars and practitioners in the field of irregular warfare. IWI generates written and audio content, coordinates events for the IW community, and hosts critical thinkers in the field of irregular warfare as IWI fellows. You can follow and engage with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, or LinkedIn.

Subscribe to our monthly newsletter for access to our written content, upcoming community events, and other resources.

SOF in Competition - Special Project Aug 23, 2024

Episode 112 is the launch podcast for the SOF in Competition Special Project.

The Irregular Warfare Initiative proudly announces the SOF in Competition Project. The intent is to coalesce the community of SOF policy makers, researchers, and practitioners to understand the role of SOF in addressing contemporary and future national security challenges.

There already exists a global community of SOF researchers and practitioners poised to explore these questions to advance the profession. The SOF in Competition Project t provides a platform for this community to coalesce, to explore the role of SOF, and to invest in leaders and the broader community. If you are a SOF professional, this is your platform. We very much welcome article submissions, ideas for events and partnerships, podcast topics, and volunteers to join the community. Reach out to adam.darnley-stuart@irregylarwarfare.org to explore how to get involved.

Do we need a Cyber Force? Part 2: Arguments Against a Seventh Service Aug 09, 2024

Episode 111 examines the arguments against a United States Cyber Force. This episode is a two part series of Project Cyber that looks at the arguments for and against a Cyber Force.

Our guests share their backgrounds and the history of the U.S. Cyber Command. They express their skepticism towards forming a new cyber force, advocating instead for continued evolution within the current framework. They then argue that cyber operations should remain integrated with existing service structures and emphasize the critical role of cyber in national security, and public safety. Our guests conclude by discussing the evolving digital landscape while urging policymakers to comprehend the gravity of cyber threats and the need for a more agile and integrated approach.

Illicit Financing of Violence in Sudan Jul 26, 2024

Episode 110 examines Illicit financing of violence in Sudan and Africa. Our guests begin by outlining definitions for licit and illicit networks in the context sponsoring proxies in and violence in Sudan. From there, they delve into how state actors use illicit networks to achieve objectives in competition. Finally, our guests offer insights to the complexities in competing with illicit networks to gain access and placement across the globe.

Do we need a Cyber Force? Part 1: Arguments for a Seventh Service Jul 11, 2024

Episode 109 examines a recent report from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies on the arguments for a United States Cyber Force. This episode is a two part series of Project Cyber that looks at the arguments for and against a Cyber Force.

Our guests delve into their long-standing experiences with U.S. Cyber Command and detail the current challenges in cyber force readiness, recruitment, training, and retention. They then discuss how despite significant funding, cyber force readiness hasn't progressed as expected, citing adversaries like Russia and China as examples of rapidly evolving cyber capabilities. They highlight the inadequacies of current service structures in cyber operations and suggest that a dedicated cyber force could better meet the demands of modern cyber warfare. The conversation also touches on the potential integration of existing units and the implications for relationships with organizations like the NSA and DISA.

Drones are Here to Stay: The Proliferation of Unmanned Aerial Systems Across the Spectrum of War Jun 27, 2024

Episode 108 examines the use of unmanned aerial systems across the spectrum of conflict. This episode is part of IWI’s special project, Project Air and Space Power.

Our guests explore the use of the full range of UAS technology by both state and nonstate actors. They unpack the democratization of air power through the proliferation of small unmanned systems and address the race to find cheaper countermeasures for the technology. Finally, they address the advent of automation and the impact of private sector involvement.

Paramilitaries Abroad: China’s Use of Nontraditional Security Forces Jun 13, 2024

Episode 107 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast examines how China uses its paramilitary and internal security forces to project power abroad and build global influence.

Our guests begin by dissecting the Chinese security apparatus: contrasting the People’s Liberation Army with the CCP’s internal police forces and paramilitaries. They then explore how China uses these nontraditional security forces—which often aid foreign governments in maintaining regime stability—as an alternative to U.S. security assistance packages. Finally, our guests conclude by examining how the U.S. and its allies can compete with China more effectively in the realm of security cooperation.

Drones, Automation, and how ARSOF is Adapting May 30, 2024

Episode 106 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast examines how drones, robotics, and automation are changing the battlefield in Ukraine and how ARSOF has adapted.

Our guests begin by outlining the significance of robotics and autonomous systems on the Ukrainian battlefield. From there, they delve into how US Special Operations formations are learning from Ukraine and changing their own formations. Finally, they end with a deep dive on how SOF forces have used drones in the past and how that compares to the modern fight and look at what changes SOF, industry and the US government may have to make to keep pace with the changing character of war.

Lessons from the Eastern Front: Security Force Assistance in Ukraine May 17, 2024

Episode 105 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast contrasts security force assistance (SFA) efforts in Ukraine and Afghanistan.

Our guests begin by outlining the significance of security force assistance and its pivotal role in Washington’s wider national security strategy. From there, they delve into a detailed analysis of SFA in both Afghanistan and Ukraine, extracting valuable lessons for policymakers and practitioners to inform future SFA policies. Finally, they end with a deep dive into SFA activities in Eastern Europe, shedding light on the socialization and transactional approaches needed to align incentives and enhance the combat capabilities of the United States’ international partners.

Insiders, Outsiders and Enablers: Intelligence Support to Irregular Warfare May 02, 2024

Episode 104 examines the role of intelligence professionals and agencies at the tactical and operational levels of irregular warfare while diving deeply into the links between US SOF and the CIA.

Our guests begin with an overview of the history of the CIA and the development in intelligence capabilities throughout the Global War on Terror, and then they discuss ways that intelligence professionals can partner most effectively with other organizations. Finally, they close with a discussion about the future of intelligence collection.

Cold War Lessons for a New Era: Connecting IW and Great Power Competition Apr 18, 2024

Episode 103 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast examines the role that irregular conflicts played during the Cold War to inform today’s era of strategic competition.

Our guests begin by explaining how irregular conflicts and capabilities play a role in strategic competition, despite policy structures in Washington that often silo great power conflict from irregular warfare. They then discuss evidence from the Cold War that suggests small, local wars often become battlegrounds between great powers. Finally, our guests conclude with a discussion of the kinds of irregular warfare interventions policymakers should consider for today’s era of great power competition and make recommendations for removing bureaucratic hurdles that would better integrate policies and practice for IW and strategic competition.

Strategic Disruption by Special Operations Forces Apr 04, 2024

Episode 102 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast examines how special operations forces can disrupt the strategic designs of Washington’s adversaries.

Our guests begin with an in-depth discussion on civil-military relations, examining the relationship between SOL/IC and SOCOM. They then discuss the unique capabilities that special operations forces bring to the table, both during peacetime competition and large scale combat operations. Finally, they address the complexities of interagency cooperation, and how irregular warfare units can leverage their skills to deter adversaries, impose outsized costs, and create relative positions of advantage.

Disarmament Demobilization and Reintegration of Ex-Combatants Mar 22, 2024

In today's episode, we delve into the topic of disarmament, demobilization, and reintegration (DDR) of ex-combatants. Our guests explore the theoretical underpinnings of DDR, the motivations behind individuals joining armed groups, and effective strategies for reintegrating former combatants back into society.

Secret Wars: Covert Action and Irregular Warfare Mar 07, 2024

In Episode 100 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast, we delve into the world of covert operations.

Our guests begin by defining covert and clandestine operations, shedding light on their intricacies and historical significance. They then discuss the complexities of clandestine activities, and address the difficulties associated with translating irregular warfare and covert operations into tangible policies.

The Fight for the Final Frontier: Irregular Warfare in Space Feb 23, 2024

Episode 99 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast takes us to the final frontier as we examine irregular warfare in space.

Our guests begin by explaining the importance of the space domain in the private and public spheres. They then give us multiple frameworks for thinking about space by using more familiar, terrestrial-based concepts to enhance our understanding of space competition. Finally, our guests conclude by contemplating how private industries could shape the space domain, and how U.S. policymakers should approach space-based deterrence.

Stay Behind Operations Feb 08, 2024

Episode 98 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast delves into resistance warfare—with a specific focus on stay behind operations.

Our guests begin by contrasting conventional conflict with resistance warfare. They then discuss the utility of stay behind operations by examining how small states can impose outsized costs on occupying powers. More specifically, they address how distributed resistance elements can frustrate aggressive powers by operating behind enemy lines. Finally, they end by providing policymakers with a framework for crafting indigenous, stay behind forces in the digital age.

Armed Politics Jan 25, 2024

Episode 97 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast focuses on a theory of armed politics as proposed by General Sir Nick Carter and Dr. Joe Felter. Our guests begin by describing the shifting landscape of the international order from the Cold War to today, and the resultant impact on alliances, partnerships, and competition across the globe. General Carter proposes a theory that emphasizes the need for those engaged in war today to deeply understand every level of politics, as neglecting this understanding can have catastrophic effects. Our guests reflect on the challenges of implementation, including tactical trade-offs and measuring effects. They conclude by considering the impact of rapidly evolving technology on this theory of armed politics, as well as the roles of the United States and United Kingdom in a world faced with disarray.

Active Defense: China’s Military Strategy Since 1949 Dec 29, 2023

Be sure to visit the Irregular Warfare Initiative website to see all of the new articles, podcast episodes, and other content the IWI team is publishing!

How have the revolutionary roots of China’s military forces influenced Chinese military strategy? How has the doctrine of the People’s Liberation Army been influenced by global events, changes in the international system, and technological advancement? And what does China’s military strategy—shaped by all of these factors—look like today, particularly with respect to the flashpoints of Taiwan and the South China Sea? This episode features a discussion with retired Lieutenant General Charles W. Hooper and Professor M. Taylor Fravel, who join our hosts to explore the historical arc of contemporary Chinese military strategy since 1949.

Intro music: "Unsilenced" by Ketsa

Outro music: "Launch" by Ketsa

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