In Too Deep

Latest Episodes:

Centering actors and behavior in systems change efforts Aug 27, 2026

Show notes

What does it take to map a system in a way that will actually lead to change? Traditional models can make change look like a straight line from input to impact, but real systems rarely work that way.

In this episode, Jeff Mohr talks with Mark Oldenbeuving, co-creator of the Actor-Based Change framework and founder of Ripple CoLab, about why he moved away from linear theories of change and toward mapping people, behaviors, and relationships instead.

They explore:

Why traditional theories of change fall short in complex environments
What inspired the Actor-Based Change framework and how it works
How to set boundaries to avoid an overwhelming system map
How to hold a theory lightly while still tracking meaningful data

Whether you're designing programs, evaluating impact, or trying to make sense of a messy system, this conversation offers a concrete, people-centered way to think about how change actually happens.
Subscribe to the In Too Deep Podcast or read the full transcript on the In Too Deep blog.

Mentioned in this episode:

Reimagining the future through systems change | Episode 16 Dec 08, 2025

Show notes

What happens after the systems map is complete? An increasing number of organizations understand the value of engaging with complexity, but the challenge comes when, after doing systems analysis, people fall back into the usual plan-control-implement-measure approach. Treating complexity as if it were just... "complicated".
In this episode, Jeff Mohr speaks with Viliana Dzhartova, co-founder of ReImagined Futures, about what it truly takes to move from systems analysis to systems change. They unpack why so many well-intentioned efforts get pulled back into linear thinking, and how leaders, teams, and institutions can begin to work in more adaptive, relational ways.
Tune in to learn more about:
- The role of systems mapping and stakeholder engagement in systems change
- Integrating long-term and intergenerational thinking into strategy and decision-making
- Core values and inner work for effective systemic transformation
If you’re trying to move beyond short-term fixes and into deeper, lasting change, this conversation will challenge the way you think about strategy, impact, and the future.
Mentioned in this episode:
- ReImagined Futures
- European Agrifood Systems Map
- Chronicity and dependency in Bages, Catalonia
- Catalonia Food System Map

The systems behind the symptoms | Episode 15 Jul 23, 2025

Show notes

What if the real problem isn’t what we think it is? When simple solutions don’t actually move the needle, it’s often a sign we’re treating symptoms, not systems. In this episode, Jeff Mohr talks with Matt Healey, founder of First Person Consulting, about how systems thinking and evaluation can help us move beyond surface-level problems.

They explore:

The difference between program evaluation and systems evaluation
Moving from problems to possibilities
Monitoring system health and finding leverage points
How to apply the System Effects approach in projects
Bridging the gap between insights and meaningful action

Whether you’re designing programs, mapping systems, evaluating impact, or trying to create lasting change, this conversation is packed with insights you can use!

Subscribe to the In Too Deep Podcast or read the full transcript on the In Too Deep blog.

Mentioned in this episode:

First Person Consulting
Problems to Possibilities Canvas
System Effects
Resources on Lawyer Wellbeing: System Effects Report, Journal Paper & Theory of Change Model

Creating new patterns for learning and leading | Episode 14 May 07, 2025

Show notes

What patterns are shaping how we learn, lead, and live, and how might we begin to shift them? In this week’s episode, we’re joined by Jessica Kiessel from (Re)Patterning Lab. Jessica stewards spaces and builds infrastructure to support the learning, creativity, and shapeshifting needed to live into the patterns we hope to see in the world, both for individuals as well as inside organizations.

Tune in to explore more around:

Seeing and making patterns
Building containers for learning
Poking at our perspectives
Creating conditions for curiosity

If you're curious about reimagining leadership, learning environments, and the patterns that shape our lives, this episode is for you! Subscribe to the In Too Deep Podcast or read the full transcript on the In Too Deep blog.

Want to go deeper?

To explore art and writing from a growing community of contributors exploring pattern making in their every day lives, visit www.patternmaking.org. To learn more about Jessica's organizational patterning work, visit www.repatterninglabs.org . In particular, we recommend you explore the beta version of common organizational patterns, an entry point for folks working in dominant culture organizations to work with patterns. If you are interested in collaborating or engaging with Jessica, reach out through either site or contact her on LinkedIn.

The way of the forest: Supporting ecosystems with a nature-inspired lens | Episode 13 Jan 23, 2025

Show notes

In this episode we’re joined by Santiago Bunce, founder of Via Bosque, a company that helps clients achieve transformative change by integrating leadership tools with nature-inspired principles. Santiago shares his unique perspective on building ecosystems and how it can be applied across different contexts to create positive, lasting change.

Tune in for a deep dive into:

Designing ecosystems through a nature-inspired lens
Approaching systems thinking in different cultural contexts
Evolving from "good vs bad" to a mindset of "good, better, best"

If you're passionate about sustainability, innovation, and the interconnectedness of our world, this episode is for you. Subscribe to the In Too Deep Podcast to stay updated on future episodes of meaningful conversations about tackling tough problems.

Uncovering networks & the future of AI in research | Episode 12 Aug 16, 2024

Show notes

After a long hiatus, we're excited to return and bring you the voices of those tackling tough problems! In this episode, Kumu Founder and CEO Jeff Mohr sits down with Cassandra Gould van Praag, Senior Community Manager at The Alan Turing Institute. Cassandra plays a key role in fostering and growing a dynamic community of researchers, practitioners, and enthusiasts. She recently launched a captivating Kumu project that visualizes her community and is now sharing with us what she learned from the process. Let's dive in!
Read the full transcript on the In Too Deep blog
This podcast was recorded on June 11th, 2024. Opinions expressed by Dr Gould van Praag are solely her own and do not express the views or opinions of The Alan Turing Institute. For more information, please visit The Alan Turing Institute website for updates on their organization.

Cultivating energy for systems change | Episode 11 Jan 13, 2020

Show notes

This week we’re joined by Chris Block, who is currently the Chronic Homelessness Initiative Director at Tipping Point Foundation. Previously he was the CEO of American Leadership Forum, Silicon Valley, as well as a number of other roles all really in the thick of it, as a systems leader working on systems change. I think you’ll find he has a fascinating background, with lots of insights to share, so let’s dive in.
Read the full transcript on the In Too Deep blog.
*Audio is not optimal for this episode, but the message is powerful nonetheless!

Leading with questions, not answers | Episode 10 Aug 26, 2019

Show notes

This week we are joined by Gene Bellinger. Gene is one of the most prolific systems thinkers, an early founder of Systems Thinking World, and one of the earliest and most influential evangelists of Kumu (there are a number of features that you should be thanking Gene for). In this episode we explore Gene's path to systems thinking, what it takes to do it well, and why he so rarely uses that term anymore.
Head over to the In Too Deep blog for the full transcript.

The case for smaller, more humble systemic interventions | Episode 9 Jun 04, 2019

Show notes

This week we’re joined with Odin Mühlenbein who is a partner at Ashoka Germany and also a lead of the systems unit at Ashoka Globalizer. He’s also the co-author of a recent report, From Small to Systemic which looks at the multi-billion euro potential in social innovation.
Head over to the In Too Deep blog for the full transcript.

Everyone a network weaver | Episode 8 Apr 23, 2019

Show notes

This week we're joined by June Holley, who is a longtime network weaver and author of The Network Weaving Handbook. She's spent much of her career working with communities, often times low-income communities, on complex issues, taking both a systems and a network lens informed by complexity principles.
In this conversation we touch on lots of different topics from the basics of how do you collect really good, compelling information about the people in your network and see how that network changes over time, to the importance of experimentation and aligning funding to support that experimentation, and also to thinking about the really important role of things like diversity in a network, and how much that can be an unlock and truly an early leverage point for so much of the change that we're trying to create in the world.
Head over to the In Too Deep blog for the full transcript.

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