Show notes
⚠️ Heads up: this episode opens with combat footage from the Tet Offensive and includes graphic descriptions of battlefield injury, a child in medical crisis, and animal experimentation. If you or someone you know is struggling, the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline is available by call or text at 988.⚠️
Jeb and Blake look at the birth of NDE research: a field of study with a significant footprint in the metro-Atlanta area. Rats are bothered. Soldiers are wounded. Canadian teens are frozen. ...and we're here to talk about all of it.
📺 Episode Summary Despite the title, this one isn't really about proving there's an afterlife - and that turns out to be the most interesting thing about it. In Search Of takes the near-death experience and, instead of building a case for Heaven, spends most of its runtime on a much stranger question: when, exactly, is a person dead? We get four threads. A grievously wounded Vietnam veteran who watched his own body being worked on and then went back to the battlefield to talk with the men he'd already put in bags. An Emory physiologist chilling rats into a state he calls clinically-but-not-biologically dead. A Manitoba teenager whose heart was stopped for well over two hours in a snowbank and who came back with nothing to report but darkness. And a woman recalling a 1952 polio vision full of white light, a dead grandmother, and a complete moral audit of her own life. Between those, the medical talking heads keep circling the same admission: nobody agrees where the line is. It's a surprisingly restrained ISO episode ... and there's a very large name conspicuously missing from it.
👔 Nimoy Fashion Alert (NFA fashion consultant, Pedro Mendes)
👥 Who's In This Episode Tommy Clack — Army captain, artillery forward observer with the 25th Infantry Division "Wolfhounds." Wounded 29 May 1969 near the Cambodian border, losing three limbs; 22 months at the Atlanta VA and 33 operations followed. He finished college as an honors graduate, spent a long career at the VA, and became one of the country's more relentless veterans' advocates. He talks about the out-of-body experience, but - as Jeb found - he almost never leads with it. As of our recording he's still out there supporting veterans.
Dr. Michael Sabom — Atlanta cardiologist. He's here to say that medicine can't pin down the moment of death. Two years later he publishes Recollections of Death, built on 116 interviews which form the closest thing the field had to a quantitative baseline. His later work takes a considerably more explicitly Christian turn.
Dr. Vojin "Voja" Popović — Yugoslav-born physiologist at Emory, and the episode's designated rat botherer. Central casting could not have done better. He chills rats into apparent death and brings them back, drawing his line between clinical and biological death at the two-to-three hour mark. His actual career is a wonder: hibernators, ground squirrels, tumor-bearing hamsters, cooled dogs, hamsters submerged in oxygen-rich fluorocarbon, and a rat experiment slated for a Spacelab flight that never happened. Frequently co-credited with his wife, Dr. Pava Popović.
Ted Milligan — Sixteen, and a student at St. John's Cathedral Boys' School near Selkirk, Manitoba, whose curriculum included a 27-mile snowshoe hike in temperatures around forty below. Found with no heartbeat, no breathing, and a core temperature below 25°C. By the time of filming he's a private in the Canadian Armed Forces. His account of the experience is the shortest in the episode and, for a materialist, the most instructive: darkness, then waking up.
Dr. Gerald "Gerry" Bristow — The episode calls him "James." He's not. Later Professor Emeritus at the University of Manitoba and a genuine world authority on hypothermia; he and Dr. Robert Smith declined to do the sensible thing and kept working on a boy every indicator said was gone. An eyewitness account from anesthesiologist Dr. Arnold Tweed fills in what the episode leaves out, including the documented duration of the cardiac arrest.
Dr. Fred Schoonmaker (d. 2005) — Denver cardiologist at St. Luke's, former fighter pilot, developer of a less invasive cardiac catheter, and a driving force behind Denver air ambulance service. He marks the difference between patients who know their visions weren't real and patients who insist theirs were.
Dr. Janette Rainwater — Introduced as "Janet." A significant figure in Gestalt therapy, Berkeley PhD (1964), author of You're in Charge!, and the veteran of several hundred workshops. Her polio experience is the most classic NDE in the episode - light, deceased relative, life review, a very symbolic climb. Jeb's research turns up a detail the reenactment gets badly wrong, and it changes how you hear the whole segment.
Rev. Loren Young (d. 2003) — Methodist minister and theologian out of Oak Hill, West Virginia; Duke, then a Bachelor of Divinity from Candler School of Theology at Emory; Southeastern Director of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. He arrives at the very end to say something warm about a merciful God right before the episode itself goes into the light.
Dr. Raymond Moody — Not in this episode. Which is a puzzle. Moody was born in Porterdale, Georgia, earned his PhD at West Georgia College and his MD at the Medical College of Georgia in 1976, and in 1975 published Life After Life - the book that coined "near-death experience," sold in the millions, and made this a subject television wanted to cover at all. The episode borrows his title, his framework, and arguably his entire premise, films almost the whole thing in and around Atlanta, yet never mentions him.
🔍 Deep Cuts & Research Notes A partial list of what we get into, without spoiling the good parts: 🌡️ Why 98.6°F was never a real number, and what a 2020 Stanford study says it is now 🎞️ Jeb's video forensics on some footage that looked very familiar, and why "we already did this episode" keeps coming up ⛪ The Company of the Cross, muscular Christianity, Ted Byfield, and a school whose controversial history we found a bit jaw-dropping. 🐹 Fluorocarbon breathing, hamsters, and learning James Cameron didn't make that up for The Abyss ✍️ What happens to a story when a documentary gets someone's name — and age — wrong, and where that sits on the line between sloppy and deceptive 🍑 Blake's hypothesis for why Atlanta briefly became the center of American NDE research, and what it has to do with trauma centers, cardiac units, blue laws, and a media hub 📊 The selection problem sitting underneath all of this: we only ever hear from the people who came back 🧭 Where each of us actually stands on this, perhaps not quite where you'd guess
⭐ Ratings 🔮 Predictions Recap Skipped this week - Blake is pretty sure this is the last week we are missing the segment. He's found the recordings and I think we have it sorted out from here.
🌕 Next Episode We go in research of… Moon Madness.
📚 Related Books These are affiliate links — if you buy through them, the show gets a small cut at no extra cost to you. • Raymond Moody — Life After Life (1975) The book this episode is named after, by the man this episode never mentions. Coined the term "near-death experience" and set the template every account since has been measured against. • Michael B. Sabom — Recollections of Death: A Medical Investigation (1982) Sabom's 116 interviews, published two years after he appears here. The attempt to put actual numbers on the phenomenon. • Michael Sabom — Light & Death (1998) The same researcher, eighteen years later, with the Atlanta Study and a much more openly Christian frame. Useful as a before-and-after. • Vojin Popović & Pava Popović — Hypothermia in Biology and in Medicine (1974) Our rat botherer's standard reference, and still cited in the modern therapeutic hypothermia literature. Expensive and hard to find, but it exists. • Janette Rainwater — You're in Charge! A Guide to Becoming Your Own Therapist (1979) Published the year before this episode aired. Reading it alongside her segment is the whole point. • James Raffan — Deep Waters: Courage, Character and the Lake Timiskaming Canoeing Tragedy The definitive account of what happened to the St. John's school system's outdoor program in 1978. Context for Ted Milligan's segment that the episode does not give you. • Susan Blackmore — Dying to Live: Near-Death Experiences (1993) The materialist case, made carefully and without contempt. Anoxia, endorphins, temporal lobe activity, and the dying-brain model. • Bruce Greyson — After: A Doctor Explores What Near-Death Experiences Reveal about Life and Beyond (2021) Four decades of research from the field's most careful living investigator. The best single answer to "what does this look like now?"
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