Holywell Trust Conversations

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The end of a series Feb 19, 2024

The latest series of Holywell Conversations podcasts began with reflections on the Good Friday Agreement, amidst fears that Northern Ireland’s devolution was over, and that series has now completed at a time when government has actually resumed.

Over the series’ 18 episodes two themes have been examined – the challenges holding back reconciliation within our society, and the specific problems that continue to face the North West region.

In the first episode, we heard from three people at the table negotiating the Good Friday / Belfast Agreement. Avila Kilmurray of the Women’s Coalition explained just how significant the Women’s Coalition had been in terms of successfully pushing for the Civic Forum, which many of us still mourn the loss of, as well as women’s rights and other social concerns.

We also heard from Paul Bew, Lord Bew, who was influential with David Trimble’s decision to sign up to devolution. And Ray Bassett, part of the Irish government’s team, emphasised that the Good Friday Agreement was the culmination of years of conversations between all the interested parties.

Subsequent podcasts reflected not just on the success of achieving devolution, but also how many of the optimistic expectations from 25 years ago have not been met.

Anger at the Legacy Act, just enacted, reflects the sense of legal stalemate now reached. Early in the series, Alyson Kilpatrick – Northern Ireland’s Human Rights Commissioner – made a passionate call for respect for human rights, warning specifically about the impact of what was then being called the Legacy Bill. She also expressed concerns about calls from some members of the Conservative Party to remove the UK from the European Convention on Human Rights – which is central to the Good Friday Agreement. Those warnings remain as relevant now, as when she made them early last year.

Peter Sheridan, a former senior officer with the RUC and PSNI, is now Commissioner for Investigations at the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery. In a recent podcast, he spoke about how events from the Troubles will be investigated as a result of the Legacy Act.

But the challenges related to criminal justice lie not just with past events. Some 25 years ago there was an assumption that paramilitary groups would fade away. Instead, some have evolved into major organised crime gangs, generating substantial sums from dealing in drugs, money laundering and extortion.

Taken together this constitutes ongoing coercive control of communities. Professor Dominic Bryan, who had been joint chair of the commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition, told us there needs to be a stronger focus on removing flags and other signals of territorial demarcation – which provide paramilitary groups with a continuing form of what might be termed legitimisation.

Elaine Crory, lobbyist at the Women’s Resource and Development Agency, made the point in a recent podcast that the operations of paramilitaries along with the history of Troubles’ violence have reinforced gender roles in our society. This has led to Northern Ireland today recording one of the highest levels of domestic violence of any place in Western Europe.

Another hangover from the Troubles that has survived a quarter of a century is the presence of peace walls – especially in Belfast, but also in Derry. In one podcast we heard from Kyra Reynolds, development worker at the Peace Barriers Programme, on the ongoing work at Derry’s Bishop Street interface, bringing populations together who come from different traditions.

When the Good Friday Agreement was signed we expected not only an end to peace walls, but also the achievement of a peace dividend. Yet analysis has suggested most of the so-called peace dividend has gone South, not North.

Dr Ciara Fitzpatrick of Ulster University told in one podcast of the scale of poverty that continues to affect our society, all these years on from the peace talks and agreement. Significantly, she connected the ongoing deprivation also with the continuing presence of paramilitaries. She believes that poverty is helping to keep them going.

Our podcast series also considered why Derry and the North West have specifically not prospered as expected after devolution. We examined why it has not been more successful, as the poorest area in NI, in gaining funding from the UK government’s Levelling-Up Fund; the city’s limited transport connectivity; the absence of a full size university campus; and the slow progress at Derry’s two major regeneration sites of Ebrington and Fort George. As well as that we reflected on what is possibly Europe’s worst illegal waste dump, Mobuoy, in a Derry suburb.

This series is now over, but all the podcasts are available on the Holywell Trust website, along with an additional new episode reflecting on the series. Holywell itself has a comprehensive programme of new activities, details of which are also on the website. That is it, for now, from us.

Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

Derry's University Grievance Feb 05, 2024

Derry has been campaigning for a full sized university campus for the last 60 years. The city still holds a grievance over the Lockwood report from 1965, which chose Coleraine for the location of the new university, rather than Derry’s existing Magee College, then a Presbyterian theological college.

I once interviewed Sir Kenneth Bloomfield, the former head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, who told me that some of the unionist politicians of the time wanted to close Magee completely, but he persuaded them not to.

That context continues to influence how the university debate is seen in Derry, where student numbers today are around 5,500, rising in the near term to 6,500. While this is progress, it is still a long way short of the 10,000 aspiration specified in Derry’s regeneration plan, and which the former University for Derry group (which I co-ordinated) aspired to.

It is even further behind the 20,000 student number that John Daly – economist for Ireland’s Northern and Western Regional Assembly – reports would be consistent with those of other Irish cities of similar size. John is one of the interviewees in the latest Holywell Conversations podcast, where he discusses how a larger university campus would benefit Derry and the wider North West region.

But the problem is not only that Derry has too few university students, it is that Northern Ireland also has too few. There are slightly under 70,000 higher education students, spread across Ulster, Queen’s, the further education colleges and the two teacher training university colleges of Stranmillis and St Mary’s. Of these 70, 000 students, 71% are from NI, 4% from GB, 3% from RoI, and 21% are non-EU international students, paying higher fees.

Wales has more than twice the number of students; Scotland has more than four times; while England has over 2.3 million HE students. England’s population is 30 times the size of Northern Ireland’s, so our student population should be about 7,000 greater if it was equivalent to that of England. If it was equivalent to Scotland, we would have nearer to 100,000.

One factor is that Northern Ireland, unlike England, subsidises tuition fees for local students, which in turn limits the number of local students. That is what is called the MaSN cap, or maximum student number.

The Irish Republic has over 250,000 higher education students. So the Republic has slightly fewer university students than Scotland, in keeping with having a smaller population.

Investments from Ireland are going into Derry’s campus. The Irish government has provided €44.5m of capital to improve teaching facilities, which will reportedly enable an additional 1,800 students at the Derry campus. Ireland has also provided €10m to support 250 student nursing and midwifery places, of which 200 will be students from the South and 50 from the North. These numbers are split between Queen’s and Ulster’s Derry campus. Ireland is also subsidising Irish students at Derry’s medical school, training a new generation of doctors.

As well as this, Ireland’s Shared Island Fund has commissioned the Royal Irish Academy to undertake a study into higher education provision in the cross-border North West region. Our latest podcast interviews Gerry McKenna of the Academy to hear what the findings are likely to be. Considerations include whether there should be an additional cross-border body overseeing higher education on the island.

Ulster University provided a statement to us saying it “remains completely committed to growth at our campus in Derry~Londonderry,” adding that “substantial levels of investment, including from the University’s own reserves and surpluses, will be made into the campus in coming years. There are more students on our campus in Derry~Londonderry than ever before and we will continue to expand student numbers so as to, with our partners, continue to grow our already very significant contribution to economic and social impact in the whole of the northwest of the island.”

There is a lobby group, the Derry University Group, that is arguing for the creation of a new independent university in Derry. While they were invited to participate in the podcast, they declined to do so.

This podcast, and previous editions of the Holywell Conversations, can be listened to at the Holywell Trust website.

The Legacy Act is Here Jan 22, 2024

The Legacy Act is Here

The widely opposed Legacy Bill is now enacted as the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act, 2023. But it remains widely hated and the Irish government has launched inter-state proceedings against the UK administration. This is a clear and strong sign of how bad relations are between the two governments that are co-guarantors of the Good Friday Agreement.

Out of what we can now call the Legacy Act comes the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery. While this body – abbreviated to ICRIR – investigates past events from the Troubles, the Act limits criminal investigations, legal proceedings, inquests and police complaints.

The Act also extends the prisoner release scheme that was initially enacted in 1998. In addition, the legislation aims to provide “for experiences to be recorded and preserved and for events to be studied and memorialised”.

The Irish government’s inter-state case claims that the Legacy Act reneges on previous commitments entered into by the UK government through the Stormont House Agreement. In addition, that the legislation is not victim-centred; that it is not consistent with obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights, which is a cornerstone of the Good Friday Agreement; that it is widely opposed within Northern Ireland; that it allows for the granting of immunity; and that it closes down existing police investigations and civil actions. Ireland argues that the ICRIR investigations are not a substitute for properly resourced police investigations.

In the latest Holywell Conversations, Sara Duddy from the Pat Finucane Centre explains why it and the victims it represents will not co-operate with ICRIR. Coinciding with the establishment of ICRIR, the Centre has launched its own ‘Impunity Project’, through which families of victims of Troubles killings seek to challenge false allegations against dead relatives. In some cases – as with Bloody Sunday – the Army falsely accused the dead of being bombers or otherwise paramilitaries to ‘justify’ their killings.

Families are now seeking two types of justice – to know the truth behind killings and to correct false allegations against dead relatives.

The other interview in the latest podcast is with Peter Sheridan, a former senior officer with the RUC and PSNI who is now Commissioner for Investigations at ICRIR. He operates under the overall leadership of former Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Sir Declan Morgan, who is the Chief Commissioner.

Peter says that ICRIR hopes to be fully operational in the middle of this year and explains how it will proceed and how relatives of those who died, and also those seriously injured, will be able to raise cases with ICRIR. He argues strongly that his police background will not undermine his credibility as lead investigator.

With such a wide array of opponents and critics of the Legacy Act – ranging from the five largest Northern Ireland parties, to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Chief Commissioner, to the departing Victims Commissioner, to victims groups and to international human rights groups – it seems implausible that ICRIR will have an easy birth.

The podcast can be listened to at the Holywell Trust website along with previous episodes.

The Domestic Violence Crisis Dec 04, 2023

Women in Northern Ireland are twice as likely to be murdered as a result of domestic violence than in the other UK nations. In some years, almost half of Northern Ireland murders are connected to domestic violence. In the 2022/23 year, of 17 homicides there were 8 that resulted from domestic violence against women.

Northern Ireland is also an outlier in international terms. While Finland has the highest rate of femicide by a partner, Northern Ireland is joint second with Hungary. (A report from Eurostat that found Northern Ireland and Romania to have the joint highest rate has been challenged by the PSNI as using a flawed calculation.)

Domestic abuse of women goes far beyond murder and violence. There is a wider context of intimidation within the home, emotional abuse, bullying and coercive control. While this is not exclusively conducted by men on their female partners, this is the most common type of domestic abuse.

There has been an assumption that a significant rise in recent years was the result of the pandemic and lockdown – with partners forced to spend 24 hours a day with each other in often very restricted environments. Yet the rate of domestic violence continued to rise after the lockdown ended.

In the year ending March there were 32,875 incidents of domestic abuse reported in Northern Ireland to the PSNI. That is a slight fall over the previous year, after a consistent period of increases. Domestic abuse-related crimes increased last year, with more than 22,000 criminal incidents logged. To put that in context, there are 1.7 domestic abuse incidents for every 100 people in the population. That is in one year and that is the reported number. It represents about 20% of all reported crime in Northern Ireland.

The PSNI records figures broken down according to the type of domestic incident. The most common are violence without injury. The second most common are violence with injury. The third type is harassment. The next most common – and these are less frequent – are criminal damage, theft, sexual offences and breaches of non-molestation orders. The incidents involving violence and of harassment have increased the most.

There were eight of what are termed domestic abuse homicides recorded in the 2022/23 year in Northern Ireland, one of which was actually committed a few years before. In the previous years there were eight, nine, five, four and 11 homicides in each year. And that does not take into account suicides that followed from years of domestic abuse and coercive control – a point raised in a BBC documentary in recent days.

The council areas with the highest numbers of reported domestic abuse are in Belfast, Armagh and Derry/Strabane. There were more than 3,000 domestic abuse incidents and more than 2,000 related crimes in Derry and Strabane in each of the last two years, with the numbers increasing.

The latest Holywell Trust Conversations podcast considers the crisis of domestic violence against women, interviewing Elaine Crory, lobbyist at the Women’s Resource and Development Agency, which is campaigning against sexual harassment and violence in Northern Ireland. She says there is an underlying macho culture in Northern Ireland – itself related to the violence in the Troubles – that has enabled violence against women within relationships. She adds that the scale of the problem has often been downplayed by decision makers, while the PSNI has not always been regarded as a trusted service to report domestic crime to.

The positive news is that new laws were introduced in Northern Ireland last year, which extended the definition of domestic abuse to include non-physical abuse, including coercive control, intimidation and the psychological, emotional or financial abuse of a person, and which can also include the use of digital and other technologies. More than a thousand people have been arrested as a result. And in June another new offence of non-fatal strangulation – regarded as a warning sign of a potential murder attempt – has been introduced in Northern Ireland.

The law has also been strengthened in the Republic, which has in addition provided new obligations on employers to provide support to staff who are dealing with domestic abuse.

A new initiative from the Belfast Trust has developed a Domestic and Sexual Violence and Abuse Support Toolkit to support staff who are being abused at home or elsewhere. We interview the trust’s Samantha Whann and Orla Barron, who explain that the toolkit was developed in partnership with trade unions and is available to other employers.

The podcast is available at the https://www.holywelltrust.com/htc-episode-1-gfa-analysis-opens-new-podcast-serieshttps://www.holywelltrust.com/htc-episode-1-gfa-analysis-opens-new-podcast-series along with previous episodes.

Learning to listen - the Thirty Project Nov 21, 2023

There is immense frustration across Northern Ireland’s community sector that the Civic Forum collapsed in 2002 and was not replaced. Demands are increasing for citizens’ assemblies, or similar, to provide an alternative voice to that of politicians, especially in the absence of the Assembly and Executive.

Avila Kilmurray was a founder of the Women’s Coalition which led demands for the Civic Forum as part of the Good Friday Agreement negotiations. Avila makes the point that it was also the Women’s Coalition that negotiated into the GFA sections on recognising and supporting victims of the Troubles; women’s representation; community development; and a focus on housing.

“The idea of the citizen’s voice, civic forum, civic assembly, whatever you call it, we thought was particularly important in Northern Ireland because of the conflict,” reflected Avila. “And because politics anyway, particularly in a contested society, draws the oxygen out from so many other issues, because everything is focused on (a) the constitutional question and (b) how you stop the violence.”

Other concerns that were never mentioned, said Avila, included domestic violence – with civil servants saying at the time that it was not an issue, proven by the fact that no one raised it with them.

Avila was speaking at an event to initiate a series of in-depth consultative events run by the Holywell Trust that provided mechanisms for ‘other’ voices to be heard.

These were the ‘Thirty’ conversations – so-called as they each brought together around thirty individuals who were interested in drilling down into contentious matters of concern, leading to them formulating detailed recommendations on how to make progress. Those topics were legacy; education; and providing a forum for civic voices, separately, in Belfast and Derry.

Catherine Cooke was one of the ‘Thirty’ participants, who is steeped in community activity in the North West, but said that what she particularly valued from the events was listening to voices that are seldom heard. “We only hear from politicians,” she says. “People came from different walks of life and it made it interesting to hear what was their priority. It was getting an insight into a new perspective.”

Grainne McCloskey, another participant, said: “I thought it was a really interesting concept, innovative to be thinking about it 25 years on [from the Good Friday Agreement].” She added: “I thought it was one of best facilitated events I have ever attended,” providing exactly the right level of engagement in discussions, bringing expert voices in, as well as mixed participation from those attending.

Grainne added that “a lot of things that were in the peace process are hidden from the average person in the street, not through any kind of cover up”, but because the public are not engaged in the detail of the Good Friday Agreement and party politics.

“Since attending, I’m much more switched on.” She added: “I can see in my work there is a change in the way I think about it…. now when I’m shaping something where people are coming together, I make a point of pointing out some of our commonalities… There’s a lot of differences, but there are a lot of common approaches too.”

Fiona Corvan of the Holywell Trust said the concept had been inspired by the success of the Citizen’s Assemblies in the South. “We wanted to give people the chance to learn and to be engaged in some divisive issues – we looked at civic engagement 25 years on from the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and reconciling the past with a future focus.”

Fiona added: “It was heartening to see that people are really interested in the issues that affect them and that are shaping our society. Quite often they are not given the chance to influence or have their say. And there is a culture of misinformation or lack of information.

“We can be so consumed by news and headline news, that quite often we miss complexities and nuances around those big issues…. One of the things we are proud of is that we used a model that works elsewhere and used the learning from that on a smaller scale.”

The events were financially supported by The Executive Office through its Together Building a United Community programme.

The podcast is available at the Holywell Trust website along with previous episodes. A video explaining the Thirty concept can also be accessed on the Holywell website, as can the recommendations from the series of events.

Farming in transition Nov 06, 2023

Agriculture is worth around £1.7bn to the Northern Ireland economy, 4% of total economic activity, according to figures published by the Department for the Economy. This compares to farming comprising just 1% of the UK economy – so farming is worth four times more to our economy, proportionately, than to the rest of the UK.

But it is a sector that is in transition and worried. Post-Brexit trade deals agreed by the UK with major agricultural economies Australia, New Zealand and South Africa caused anxiety. Further possible deals with Brazil and Canada are increasing that concern. The size of these countries’ farms and farming businesses provide economies of scale that Northern Ireland farms can’t match.

The British government has pledged that new trade deals will not involve reductions in environmental protection, food standards or animal welfare. Some campaigners have expressed scepticism about this, at least in the longer term. No government can bind future governments.

Both the Ulster Farmers Union and Britain’s National Farmers Union have criticised these trade deals, which they argue damage UK farming interests.

Currently around half of UK food consumption is domestically produced. Much of the meat sold by UK supermarkets is bought on international markets. The UK records a trade deficit in both the meat and dairy markets. Pre-Brexit, most agricultural exports were to EU member states.

The dairy market represents a specific concern – with farmers selling milk at prices below the cost of production. A few weeks ago the Ulster Farmers’ Union said that farmers were being paid 57 pence per two litre container of milk, out of a then typical £1.65 retail price. That £1.65 compares with farmers’ production cost of 70 pence per two litres. So farmers are losing 13 pence for every two litres of milk they produce, whereas the retailers and processors between them take £1.08 per two litres in terms of their costs, plus margins.

It should be explained that some of the processors are dairy co-ops, owned by farmers, though not necessarily controlled by farmers.

Moreover, farmers receive additional income through farming support payments. Until Brexit, farmers here received Single Farm Payments, under the European Union’s Common Agricultural Policy.

Farmers in Northern Ireland can now claim under the Basic Payment Scheme. A total of £294m is available for payments to farmers who are farming at least three hectares of land – that is 30,000 square metres.

The UK government is phasing-out direct payments for farmers in England over a seven year period, providing support instead through public payments for public good – which is focused on environmental protection and climate change mitigation measures.

Northern Ireland is making similar changes. The Basic Payment System will be replaced in 2025 by the Farm Sustainability Payment, with new targets and conditions. A new Farm Support and Development Programme will be phased in, with payments reduced. Farmers will increasingly be paid for their environmental supports, along with resilience, efficiency improvement and supply chain development.

The latest Holywell Conversations podcast discusses both the impact of Brexit and how farmers can manage the demands on them to meet environmental targets. Interviewees are William Taylor of Farmers for Action and John Gilliland, a former president of the Ulster Farmers Union and an environmental advisor to the agriculture sector.

The podcast is available at the Holywell Trust website.

The other waiting list crisis Oct 23, 2023

When waiting lists are discussed and shouted about in Northern Ireland, we are usually talking about our disintegrating healthcare system. But there is a second waiting list crisis – that of households seeking social housing.

As at March of last year, there were 44,426 applicants on the social housing waiting list. Of these, over 10,000 were regarded as homeless and more than 31,000 were in housing stress. Nor is the situation improving. There was a 20% jump in applicants for social housing in Derry and Strabane last year.

House building is not catching up – instead it is increasingly falling behind. There were a mere 922 completions of social housing units of accommodation – houses and apartments – in the 2021/22 year across all of NI. At this rate, it would take four decades to meet the demand.

Meanwhile, the private sector has been exploiting the opportunity. There are now as many private sector tenancies as in the whole of the social housing sector – the Housing Executive and housing associations combined. And there are complaints that some private sector properties are of very poor standard.

Another symptom of the crisis is the massive increase in demand for temporary accommodation. Total spend across Northern Ireland has jumped from £5.8m in the 2018/19 year to £23.7m in the 2022/23 year. In Derry and Strabane this has risen from £930,000 to £5.8m over that same four year time period. The increase for Belfast is much smaller, having increased from £1.6m to £3.7m in that time.

In the latest Holywell Conversations podcast, housing campaigner Marissa McMahon, who works with both Participation and Practice of Rights (PPR) and the Simon Community, discusses the scale of the crisis and how this can be addressed. Paddy Gray, emeritus professor of housing at Ulster University and a seasoned housing association board director, considers how social housing providers can boost construction.

Despite the shortfall, there are significant development programmes being taken forward. Belfast city centre is awash with city centre apartment construction. In Derry, the focus is more on the suburbs, where some very large schemes are underway. A new Cashel estate on the Buncrana Road will eventually produce 2,500 new homes, including 800 social housing units. That is a joint scheme between private developer Braidwater and Apex Housing Association.

Apex has appointed Kevin Watson Construction to build out another new development of 250 homes at Springtown, which was approved against advice from planning officials. And Apex has led on the construction of more than a thousand new homes in the Skeogh area of Derry over the last eight years. Choice Housing Association is now to construct an additional 244 homes in the same area. Choice, in partnership with South Bank Square Ltd, is also building another 252 properties on the Waterside, by the Gransha roundabout.

It is too soon to determine what impact, if any, these new developments will have on community integration. The Housing Executive reports that social housing segregation remains most common in the urban parts of Belfast, Derry and Craigavon. But it is proud of its Shared Housing programme, which has grown to 69 schemes comprising 1,973 homes, delivered by 11 housing associations across all council areas.

The Housing Executive says that people want to live in mixed communities, pointing to the Life and Times Survey, which indicates that 79% of respondents would like to live in an integrated, non-segregated, housing community. But the main priority for tenants is to live close to relatives and friends, which creates a drag on cross-community integration.

There are other signs of progress, with a big fall in the number of households that have had to be re-housed because of sectarian and other intimidation. In 2002/3, there were over 1,000 households seeking assistance because of intimidation. By 2022, this had fallen to 171 households.

There has been a comparable fall in properties acquired after forced evacuation, under the SPED scheme, the use of which fell from 382 properties in 2003/4, down to nothing in 2021/2 and just one in 2022/3.

At least there are some positive signs of progress.
Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

A Tale of One City - and Two Regeneration Sites Oct 09, 2023

Derry is a frustrated city. Too often promises of improvement either come to nothing, or happen too slowly.

Anyone who doubts this can consider the regeneration of two major development sites – Ebrington and Fort George. One is now partially occupied, the other largely vacant. This is two decades after the fanfare of their transfer from the Ministry of Defence for the benefit of the city.

The former Ebrington Barracks, also known at one time as HMS Sea Eagle, were gifted to the Northern Ireland Executive as part of the Reinvestment and Reform Initiative of May 2002. That is 21 years ago. The other sites handed over alongside Ebrington were Maze/Long Kesh, Crumlin Road Gaol and barracks in Magherafelt and Malone Road in Belfast.

Over the years, there has been a lot of criticism of slow progress at Ebrington. But things speeded up recently, with Ebrington Hotel opening in the summer of this year. There are also bars, cafes and offices that opened around the main square. Major new Grade A offices at the adjacent Ebrington Plaza look as if they are near completion.

However, there has been tension in the last month over the use of Ebrington’s main public space. It appears that no legally binding agreement had been put in place by The Executive Office that clarified arrangements for its use and the potential nuisance to local businesses. This led to The Executive Office making compensation payments of at least £280,000 to businesses. There have been strong criticisms of The Executive Office for its handling of matters.

There is sensitivity as a result of the fall-out, which may explain why neither the Ebrington Hotel nor Ebrington Holdings – which has a role in the future development of the area – responded to requests to discuss the situation for the latest Holywell Conversations podcast.

Heron Brothers, which are the lead developers of the adjacent new Grade A offices which tower over Ebrington, also did not respond to our question of when the offices will be complete and occupied. The Executive Office chose not to speak to us, or provide a comment.

As a result of the row over the use of Ebrington’s public space, a resolution was agreed a few days ago by Derry City and Strabane District Council. This “reaffirms commitment to the transfer of Ebrington from TEO to Council as soon as its practically possible”, with the council’s officials instructed meanwhile to engage with The Executive Office “so Council can provide the management and oversight function of sustainable and cost-effective events at the Square.”

This suggests there may not be a quick resolution to conflicts over future use of the public space, especially as The Executive Office does not appear to have guaranteed that the public space will be available for future events.

Despite these issues, Ebrington has become much more vibrant in recent months, since the opening of the hotel. A further development on the site will be the Derry North Atlantic Museum. This was to have been opened in 2016, but there have been delays in obtaining funding approval. Progress has recently accelerated, construction is to begin “as soon as possible”, says the council, and it is hoped it will open in 2025.

Our latest podcast interviews owners of two businesses located at Ebrington – James Huey of The Walled City Brewery and Paul Nelis of Challenge Curve – who are both very positive about the location.

While there is continued frustration at how slow the regeneration of Ebrington has been, the situation at Fort George is very much worse.

Fort George was transferred under a different arrangement to that of Ebrington. It was handed back by the Ministry of Defence to Londonderry Port and Harbour – now known as Foyle Port – and sold to the Department for Social Development, now known as the Department for Communities, in May 2004 for £12m. So that is 19 years ago.

Regeneration of Fort George was in part delayed by the need to remediate the site because of oil pollution dating from when it was part of a Naval dockyard and also because of the presence of the Japanese knotweed invasive species.

There is just one building so far constructed at Fort George, which is the Catalyst facility for new start and developing technology businesses. It is fully let and a second Catalyst unit is to be built – planning permission has been approved and finance is being arranged.

Back in December 2015, the Department for Communities obtained outline planning permission for mixed use development of Fort George. This led to a tender exercise in 2018, seeking expressions of interest for parts of the site. The Western Health Trust obtained approval for its bid.

The Department told us that Western Trust will use the site for an “integrated primary, community and acute” centre. It will generate 250 new permanent jobs, as well relocating 450 existing posts. The Western Trust added that it is “working to complete” the outline business case, which is needed to move ahead with procurement for construction.

It is unclear why the sale process has taken five years. We submitted a Freedom of Information Act request for copies of correspondence in order to understand this, but our application was rejected on the grounds that it contained thousands of items and was therefore excused from disclosure because of the cost of administration.

Western Trust did disclose another important point. “The Department of Communities is working with other stakeholders to progress the development of the remainder of the Fort George site for development including the planning required for access, internal road and car parking infrastructure all of which will meet both the Western Trust and future stakeholder needs.”

DfC itself explained: “The Department is currently revising the Masterplan to incorporate the proposed Health and Care Centre on the site. In the longer term, the Department intends to market the remainder of the site.”

Western Trust is to occupy a mere 1.7 acres of the total 11 acres. This means that after nearly two decades there remains no clarity on how the majority of the site is to be used. Nor is the road infrastructure in place to support a major development.

The latest Holywell Conversations podcast considers the regeneration of the two sites. It is a complex story, but does help to explain the continuing grievance the residents of Derry have when it comes to decisions taken by government in Northern Ireland.

The podcast is available at the Holywell Trust website.

Good Relations Week Sep 25, 2023

Last week was Good Relations Week, the annual Community Relations Council event that aims to build relationships between people of different backgrounds in Northern Ireland, including across the traditional Catholic and Protestant divisions and also people of differing ethnicities.

You might say this remains work in progress, which is not the fault of the CRC. Northern Ireland remains a toxically divided society - exemplified, and arguably amplified, by the inability of the two largest parties of the two largest communities to govern together.

Northern Ireland’s first Good Relations Week was in 1990 – some 33 years ago. The Troubles were still going strong – 81 people died that year, with more civilians killed than either paramilitaries or members of the RUC and army. It wasn’t the worst year in the Troubles, but nor was it the best. It was just yet another year that showed that some people here found it impossible to live with others. People died together, instead of living together.

1990 was not just the first year of Good Relations Week, it was also when the Community Relations Council was itself established – the parent of Good Relations Week. CRC’s role is to lead and support change towards reconciliation, tolerance and mutual trust. On behalf of The Executive Office, the CRC assists in implementing the Good Relations Strategy, which is called Together: Building a United Community, or T:BUC.

The latest Holywell Trust Conversations podcast discusses the annual Good Relations Week and considers its value. Michael McGlade from the Community Relations Council for Northern Ireland – which funds the podcast and, indeed, this blog – points out that NI has “changed dramatically” since the advent of the CRC and Good Relations Week, not least with the Good Friday Agreement being signed 25 years ago.

“There’s been a wholesale change in society since then,” says Michael. He sees Good Relations Week as an opportunity to tell people what is being done on a continuing basis to bring people together – and to give credit to organisations and programmes that are engaged in community reconciliation. “It says, here’s things that are going on.”

The Holywell Trust’s partner agency, funded by the CRC, is peacebuilding charity The Junction, led by Ruth Gonzavlez-Moore. Community education is at the heart of The Junction’s work, including through challenging power imbalances, patriarchy and imperialism, while considering the impact of the history of violence on how society and politics function today.

“The Junction has also delivered and developed healing projects,” says Ruth, “hearing people’s stories around lived experience in the conflict.” The Junction seeks to influence how peacebuilding is undertaken.

Fiona Corvan, senior programmer for the Holywell Trust, says that some of its events for Good Relations Week tackled very difficult themes, especially around the legacy of the Troubles. “We are conscious that we need to reflect difficult conversations in our work,” she says.

The audience of one production felt challenged by its consideration of events in The Troubles, while admitting they find it difficult to take into account the perspectives of others. Fiona adds that the passing of the Legacy Act made the performance especially poignant, with the play asking “is there a timeline to victimhood?”

Fiona questions the role of Good Relations Week for an organisation that focuses on good relations all year round. The ongoing work of Holywell involves hosting conversations between people of differing perspectives not only on the past, but also about the constitutional future. She personally believes that Good Relations Week needs to evolve so that it speaks to those people and communities that at present do not engage in projects such as these.

The discussion is available as a podcast at the Holywell Trust website, along with all previous podcasts in the series.

Why do we still have 'peace walls'? Sep 11, 2023

Why do we still have ‘peace walls’?

Why, a quarter of a century after the Good Friday Agreement, do we still have peace walls? The truth, of course, is that the peace deal ended the conflict, but failed to end division and embed reconciliation.

Murdered journalist Lyra McKee famously wrote that more ‘peace walls’ have gone up in since the GFA than have come down. There are today over 20 miles of those walls, with the majority in Belfast. The most well known of these separate the Falls Road and the Shankill Road, while televised riots over the Northern Ireland Protocol broke out at the barricades at Springfield Road.

In Derry, there is just one ‘peace wall’ – which is between the Fountain estate and Bishop Street Without. The Fountain estate is Protestant / unionist and the only part of the city side which is. Yet the southern side of the Fountain estate does not have a peace wall – these are streets which feature terraced housing, much of it in private ownership. And some of that area has become mixed in recent years, with people moving in from other areas, of other traditions, including ethnic minorities and probably some Catholics. So the broader Fountain area is becoming more plural.

Because the River Foyle was a natural barrier between the overwhelmingly Catholic city-side and a more Protestant Waterside, we never had the number of peace walls in Derry that became common in Belfast.

However, there are two community interfaces on Derry’s Waterside and these are not marked by walls. One of these is the separation of the neighbouring Catholic Curryneiran and Protestant Tullyally estates; the other would be between Irish Street and the Top of the Hill.

The positive news from Derry is that a programme has been underway for the last 15 years to reconcile neighbouring communities of different traditions on the Waterside, which has led to the creation of a ‘shared village’, backed by substantial capital investment. This has gained the support from community groups in both the Protestant Irish Street area and the Catholic Top of the Hill. And a project funded by the International Fund for Ireland is engaged in bringing together the Protestant Fountain and Catholic Bishop Street residents on the city side.

While these projects represent real progress, we cannot overlook demographic changes that can add to tensions. The birth rate in Protestant communities is lower than amongst Catholics, even today. There is probably a different attitude to birth control for most Catholics now than in the past - but the Protestant population is significantly older than the Catholic population – and Protestants therefore make-up a smaller proportion of the parenting age population.

This demographic trend tends to mean that housing pressure in Catholic areas is greater than in Protestant areas. In turn, this can mean there are empty homes in what would traditionally be regarded as Protestant areas, compared to overcrowding in Catholic areas. That creates social tensions and pressure to shift traditional boundaries.

In addition, we have many more mixed religion families; and families with no religion. And, of course, more ethnic minorities who can only find empty properties in traditionally Protestant areas, leading to a greater diversity that is not always welcomed. In fact, the entire population growth in Belfast over the last two decades can be explained by the arrival of new ethnic minority communities.

What we see is a watering down of the traditional cultural character of some areas, with some residents – including some with paramilitary connections – trying to preserve the long standing monocultures. Not all of these tensions are easily addressed.

The latest Holywell Conversations podcast considers the continuing presence of peace walls and community divisions, with contributions from Kyra Reynolds, development worker at the Peace Barriers Programme, and Alison Wallace, strategy manager of the Waterside Neighbourhood Partnership.

The podcast is available at the Holywell Trust website.

Connecting the North West Aug 14, 2023

Derry and Donegal are not only marginalised by their geographic position on the periphery of the island of Ireland, but they are also very badly served by the transport infrastructure. They are not alone in this: there are also complaints from Sligo, Fermanagh and elsewhere in the West expressing similar concerns.

After a long campaign, parts of the A6 road between Derry and Belfast have been upgraded - though it is still not a dual carriageway between Dungiven and Castledawson. It was back in the 1960s that there were government plans to provide a motorway link from Belfast to Derry – which has still not happened and probably now never will.

Much of the immediate concern today is focused on the A5 road, between Derry and Dublin. In particular, the very high number of accidents and deaths along this road. It has been described as the most dangerous in Ireland, with 47 people killed in road accidents since plans were announced in 2007 to significantly upgrade it.

This is just one element of the transport infrastructure weakness in the North West region. Another can be seen clearly by looking at a map of the rail system. Derry is the end of the line, despite at one point in the city’s history having four stations and lines emerging out from the city. Neighbouring towns to the West and the South such as Letterkenny, Strabane and Omagh no longer have any rail connectivity.

Plans recently announced by the two administrations of the Republic and Northern Ireland indicate a possible partial reversal of past decisions closing rail lines. The all-island rail review was launched in 2021 by the South’s transport minister and Green Party leader Eamonn Ryan along with the then NI infrastructure minister Nichola Mallon. The results of that review were published last month.

For Derry, the proposals include one of great significance. This would be an additional rail connection to Belfast, achieved by reopening the rail link through Portadown, with the route travelling via Strabane, Omagh, Portadown and then through Lisburn into Belfast. Passengers could also connect on to Dublin via Portadown, with the Belfast to Dublin route potentially being upgraded for faster journey times.

Other elements of the plan include a spur from the Derry to Portadown line heading into Letterkenny and the possibility of a new rail connection between Derry and Limavady. And there will be further work undertaken into cross-Dublin mainline connectivity, which would potentially lead to a Belfast to Cork service, without the need to divert to local services between the two major Dublin stations of Connolly and Heuston.

A core element of the plan is the electrification of mainline rail across the island as part of the strategy to decarbonise our economy and transport system. Broader aspirations of the plan include cutting traffic-related air pollution, congestion and also the desire in the South to spread housing demand, achieved through improved public transport connectivity.

None of this is cheap. The entire programme outlined is costed at around €32bn, or £27bn. And before anyone gets too excited, even after – or maybe if – there is political agreement behind it, the plan would take a quarter of a century to deliver. And there is not even unanimous support within government in the Republic behind it, nor, of course, is there any sort of government in the North to either object or endorse it.

It is significant that the consultation that accompanied the review had a disproportionately large response from residents in the North, especially the North West. This illustrates how important transport connectivity is for Derry and the rest of the region.

The latest Holywell Trust Conversations podcast considers this transport infrastructure deficit in the North West and specifically the proposals contained in the all island rail review. These would substantially improve rail connectivity for Derry, Tyrone and parts of Donegal.

‘Into the West’ successfully campaigned against the possible closure of the rail line into Derry and is lobbying for renewed rail links in the North West. Steve Bradley of the group tells the podcast that while he welcomes the proposals contained in the review, it has not recommended everything the group is seeking.

The podcast also hears from Northern Ireland roads expert Wesley Johnston, who considers what could be learnt from the overspends on the road construction programme in terms of the likely actual cost of such an ambitious programme of work on our rail system.

This and earlier Holywell Conversations podcasts can be listened to through the Holywell Trust website.

Flaming July Jul 31, 2023

Only the most devoted conspiracy theorist could deny climate change given the devastating events of recent weeks. Spring was marked by deadly fires in Canada, terrible floods in Northern Italy and even an unfamiliar heatwave in Northern Ireland.

Now things have got even more deadly, with awful new fire outbreaks in Greece, Italy Algeria and Tunisia. And a severe worsening of ice melting in the Antarctic. Meanwhile, the drought and loss of agricultural land in the Horn of Africa is leading to starvation and population displacement – and contributing to regional wars.

Even before the apocalyptic events of recent weeks, the evidence was clear that climate change is happening. The hottest day ever recorded in the UK was in July last year. The hottest day ever recorded in Ireland was in August last year. All of the UK's 10 warmest years have been recorded since 2000. And until this year, last year was Europe’s hottest ever. Over 60,000 people died from heat in Europe in 2022.

The Met Office states categorically that this series of hot weather records is directly related to climate change and results from the widespread burning of fossil fuels that began with the Industrial Revolution. It is probably now a matter of mitigating the crisis, rather than reversing it. But with much of Northern Ireland’s coastal areas at risk from rising sea levels, we have our own selfish interest in achieving the least worst outcome.

In the latest Holywell Conversations podcast, Professor John Barry puts the climate crisis in perspective. But as well as analysis we hear from the National Energy Agency’s home energy advisor Nichola MacDougall on what we can do to improve the energy efficiency in our homes – which will both cut our own carbon emissions, but also cut our heating bills during the cost of living crisis.

While there is a lot of discussion about the big ticket items that will bring down carbon emissions and heating bills, Nichola talks about some low cost improvements that will make a big difference. These include blocking unused chimneys and focusing on improved insulation around the home. For once political action can save consumers money, rather than spending it.

Showing paramilitaries the exit door Jun 19, 2023

Recent weeks have seen a rise in concern about the continuing presence of paramilitaries in our society. Just how we make faster progress in removing them is the question considered in the latest Holywell Trust Conversations podcast.

Clearly, 25 years ago when the Good Friday Agreement was approved by the public, they would have expected paramilitaries to have been fully or largely removed from our society by now. Yet we still see significant activity by both loyalist and republican groups.

Should we, though, as chief executive of Co-operation Ireland and former senior PSNI and RUC officer Peter Sheridan suggests, see some of the groups simply as organised crime gangs? Would that reflect more accurately where our society is in comparison to those places in Dublin, London and the United States, for example, which are also burdened by drug-related criminality?

Given that paramilitaries exercise coercive control over communities, with territories marked out by flags, is effective regulation and policing of the use of flags an essential element in asserting dominance over paramilitary groups? This is an approach favoured by Professor Dominic Bryan, who was joint chair of the commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition. And why is that commission’s report, as Bryan puts it, sitting on shelves “gathering dust”, rather than being implemented?

Despite this sense of negativity, we should reflect on the progress achieved, especially since the Fresh Start Agreement of 2015, which identified the need to end paramilitarism “once and for all”. It established the Independent Reporting Commission to focus on this.

The trend since then has been downward, though it rose again in the last year. In the 12 months ending 31st May, there was one security-related death; seven bombings; 33 shootings; and 32 casualties of paramilitary assaults.

Tackling paramilitary criminality is handled jointly by the PSNI, An Garda Síochána, HMRC, the National Crime Agency and the security services. It is the approach of the PSNI, in particular, that has been questioned, with critics suggesting that heavy-handed policing undermines acceptance of the PSNI in poorer communities and has led to greater support for paramilitaries.

These complaints grew in recent days with the arrest in public sight of a health care worker in Derry, with very public comments about the arrest from the PSNI. This led to strong criticisms of the police from her solicitors, Madden and Finucane.

The firm stated that “to arrest a woman with no criminal record, from her place of work where she is a well respected health care professional wholly unconnected to criminality of any kind, and to then denigrate her good name in the most egregious way, is to be condemned and deplored”.

Asked whether heavy handed policing undermines the PSNI’s attempts at tackling paramilitaries, Sheridan put the spotlight on how the Policing Board sees its role. “The Policing Board needs to be more vocal around this staff and take more public responsibility,” he says, adding that the political parties should nominate more senior members onto the Board, to raise its status. “I think Sinn Fein are probably the only people today who put people onto the Board who are particularly well known.”

The podcast can be listened to at the Holywell Trust website.

Where is the Peace Dividend? Jun 05, 2023

A few days ago the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons was told that for some communities here, the expected peace dividend from the Good Friday Agreement never arrived.

Tim Attwood of the John and Pat Hume Foundation reported on its recent ‘Peace Summit’. “One of the young people said, ‘The conflict was not the problem; the peace is’, because, in so many places, they do not see the dividend. Some working-class people in parts of Belfast or Derry do not see the dividend. Where are the jobs? Where is the investment that gives them the hope for the future?”

A couple of years ago, the Derry University Group – lobbyists for university expansion in the city – published research from accountant Cormac Duffy which concluded that, in real terms, while the Belfast economy grew by 14% since the Good Friday Agreement, Derry’s economy contracted by 7%. Those figures are rejected, both by the independent FactCheckNI and by Derry City and Strabane District Council. Yet the conclusions resonated in Derry, where there is resentment and a feeling of being left behind.

Duffy’s conclusion was based on comparing Gross Value Added in the two cities. But, as the author himself recognised, those statistics are distorted by the commuting nature of the Belfast economy, with many of the best paying jobs in the capital taken by people who live in Lisburn, Bangor and elsewhere.

The unemployment rate provides an alternative measure of progress. At the time of the Good Friday Agreement, the unemployment rate in the Foyle constituency was 15.2% and the male unemployment rate 20.7%. This was the 7th worst in the UK, behind Belfast West and several deprived areas of England. Today the claimant count rate in Foyle is 5.6% and 6.9% for men.

The UK rate in 1998 was 6.3%, today it is 3.9%. In 1998, the Foyle rate was around 9% higher than that of the UK average. Today it is 1.7% higher. So measured by official unemployment rates, Derry has gained a peace dividend.

Yet, Derry continues to lag behind the rest of the UK in employment rate and wealth generation. While the UK had an employment rate of 75% at the end of 2021, it was just 65% in the Derry and Strabane council area. And the levels of deprivation in the city (as in parts of Belfast) continue to be disgraceful, 25 years on from a peace accord that might have been expected to resolve most of our society’s challenges.

Some 38% of the population in Derry and Strabane are classed as income deprived, compared to the NI figure of 25%. Pay in Derry and Strabane is 9% below the NI median, while disposable income per head is 11% below the NI average. More positively, the council points to official statistics indicating that both Derry and Belfast have been catching up with the rest of the UK in terms of median pay, and also that Derry has been catching up with Belfast.

But official statistics also reveal that more than half of children growing up in Derry and Strabane live in areas classed as deprived. While 42% of children in Derry are eligible for free school meals, this compares to 28% across NI as a whole and 22.5% in England. This is an astonishing disparity.

It is the lack of progress in narrowing Derry’s poverty gap with the rest of the UK that has caused many people to argue that there has not been a sufficient peace dividend for Derry – with some communities almost untouched by economic improvement.

A presentation last week in Derry by John Daly, senior economist at the Northern and Western Regional Assembly, both spelled out the dire situation in Derry and Donegal, while also suggesting a solution. Daly argued this requires expanding university provision in Derry; capitalising on the opportunities presented by the new Atlantic Technological University across the border; increasing the focus on the high technology research produced by the two institutions; and exploring how to develop regional structures.

The latest Holywell Trust Conversations podcast discusses the weakness of the peace dividend for Derry – and the rest of NI – with Dr Ciara Fitzpatrick of Ulster University; Garbhan Downey of the Derry University Group; and Tim Attwood, chief executive of the John and Pat Hume Foundation.

* A report on the ‘Peace Summit’ – ‘The Unfinished Business of Peace and Reconciliation – A Call to Action’ – has been published. The Holywell Trust is a partner organisation.

Trashing the environment May 22, 2023

Just five miles from Derry’s city centre, on the suburban edge of the Waterside, is the site of one of the worst environmental crimes in UK history. It has been described as Europe’s largest illegal waste dump, which may be an exaggeration, but it is certainly one of the very biggest.

The Mobuoy waste dump runs across both sides of Derry’s Mobuoy Road. It covers 116 acres and contains 100 tonnes of illegally buried rubbish. While the company running the site was legally registered as a waste disposal business, it evaded around £100m in tax through its illegal use of the site. There are fears that toxins from the waste could spill into the adjoining River Faughan, which provides some of Derry’s drinking water. It is contaminating fresh water relied upon by wildlife and there are fears for neighbouring farmland.

Until a few weeks ago, it was not possible to report properly on this scandal, though there was an official investigation into Mobuoy by Chris Mills - the so-called Mills Report. There has been a long-running attempt to prosecute directors of the company. Two of whom have now been convicted, which means Mobuoy can now be discussed.

The Mobuoy effects will be long lasting. Not only will most of the rubbish not decay naturally, quickly, but there is no decision yet on how to clean it up. Any solution is likely to cost hundreds of millions of pounds. And the final element of the upgraded section of the A6 Belfast to Derry road was to have arrived at Gransha – via Mobuoy. Instead, for the moment at least, it ends at Drumahoe.

A recent Radio 4 series and podcast reported in detail on this crime and led to much greater attention to it than had previously been the case. In addition, Sam McBride of the Belfast Telegraph wrote a series of reports on the Mobuoy scandal.

In the latest of the podcast series Holywell Trust Conversations, Sam provides the background to his articles and the shock he experienced on visiting the site. We also discuss with Queen’s University PhD student June Hwang his research for his dissertation and his assertion that it is the sectarianisation of Northern Ireland government that led to environmental protection being sidelined.

Dean Blackwood, a member of Derry environmental group The Gathering, who is also a professional planner and one of the most respected figures in Ireland in environmental protection, considers in the podcast why Northern Ireland, especially the North West, has such a serious problem with this extremely lucrative environmental crime.

While Mobuoy is the extreme example of environmental crime, Derry’s rural roads are littered with dumped rubbish. And illicit waste operators have long been accused of taking local waste across the border into Donegal to illegally bury trash.

This is a problem for which there is no quick or easy solution, either regarding Mobuoy, or the wider problem. But it is essential that the challenge is properly examined and discussed.

The podcast can be listened to at the Holywell Trust website.

Human Rights May 08, 2023

Human rights are under threat in the UK, warns the Northern Ireland Human Rights Chief Commissioner Alyson Kilpatrick.

While the immediate question is whether the British government will change the law in order to remove large numbers of asylum seekers to Rwanda, this is in the context of proposals for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights. This would have significant, negative, implications for Northern Ireland, given that this is one of the foundations of the Good Friday Agreement.

The future of human rights legislation is the subject of the latest Holywell Trust Conversations, our podcast series looking at contentious challenges facing Northern Ireland. This latest podcast contains an in-depth interview with Alyson Kilpatrick, along with contributions from the new director of the Committee on the Administration of Justice, Daniel Holder, and Queen’s University Professor of Human Rights, Colin Harvey.

Both Alyson and Daniel express real concern about the threats to human rights in all the UK. Colin shares those concerns, while suggesting that much of the rhetoric from government ministers is to create a political environment for exploitation in the next General Election, and may not be realised in the actual legal changes that will be approved by Parliament.

It is important to recognise that the context is about much more than deporting asylum seekers to Africa, including those who are fleeing from wars and oppression in places such as Afghanistan, Syria and the Horn of Africa.

Questions were raised about the UK’s membership of the European Convention on Human Rights – and being subject to the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights – during the Brexit referendum debates. This is despite the ECHR being separate from the EU; pre-dating the creation of the EU and its predecessors; having a much larger membership; and it having been an initiative of British Conservative Second World War Prime Minister Winston Churchill.

Three government Bills affect – diminish, argue human rights lawyers – human rights in the UK. The most profound of these is the Bill of Rights Bill, which was a pet project of former deputy prime minister Dominic Raab. Whether the Bill of Rights Bill will proceed given Raab’s resignation over bullying allegations is not yet clear. If it does, it will remove some protections included in the Human Rights Act.

In addition, the Illegal Migration Bill seeks to limit the European Court of Human Rights’ role in adjudicating over British actions to remove asylum seekers to Rwanda. And the Government’s Troubles Bill, often called the legacy bill, puts an end to prosecutions and investigations into Troubles deaths in Northern Ireland.

Removing human rights protections is of serious concern to lawyers, but is relevant to the daily lives of much of the population. Indeed, the failure of successive British governments to deliver the promised Northern Ireland Bill of Rights is blamed by the podcast interviewees for holding back our society in achieving greater progress towards social equality within NI.

The podcast can be listened to at the Holywell Trust website.

Longer versions of the three interviews are also available there.

Funding the North West - Levelling Up and Shared Prosperity Fund Apr 24, 2023

Anger in the voluntary sector

There was anger across Northern Ireland when the government’s funding allocations from the replacement for the European Social Fund were announced. Firstly, the announcement was made late morning on the very last day possible. And secondly, the level of funding from the replacement programme, the Shared Prosperity Fund, was much less than that lost from ESF. Many people felt this was not the promise the UK government made after Brexit.

For people in Derry, this was regarded by some as a second blow. While the city did well from the first found of the Levelling-Up Fund, it got nothing from the second round – despite having the worst deprivation figures in NI, and one of the very worst in the whole of the UK.

The second of the new series of Holywell Trust Conversations podcasts contains interviews with people in voluntary groups in Derry that have experienced the two programmes – both winners and losers – to ask them about their experiences and the impact of the decisions.

While Derry got nothing from that second round of the Levelling-Up Fund, it actually did very well from that first round. Some £49m went into NI from the initial allocations, of which £16m was won for the Derry and Strabane council area. This was far more than to be expected from its share of the population.

Criteria for the Levelling-Up Fund were projects that would cut crime in areas where it is worst; provide incomes for those who need it most; transform the economy by generating higher paid and higher skilled jobs; and attract new investment. Groups that obtained funding were a sports hub for boxing and snooker, that also contains football changing rooms; improvements to the village centre in Derg; and the Acorn City Farm on a derelict part of Derry’s largest central recreation area, St Columb’s Park.

Success in that first round was in part the result of the council already having projects that were ready to go, with businesses cases prepared, and looking for funding. Shauna Kelpie of Acorn City Farm, discusses her experience of successfully bidding for Levelling-Up Fund money on the podcast.

It was that context of first round success that explains Derry’s lack of success in the second round, when £71m was distributed across NI. That did not prevent some local people who bid into that second round from being very unhappy at being rejected, nor raising questions about how the government was implementing its criteria.

But if there was unhappiness about the Levelling-Up Fund, that was nothing to the sheer anger felt across the voluntary sector about the results of the replacement of ESF by the Shared Prosperity Fund. Many groups that had been funded for years by ESF, delivering important projects, found themselves without continued funding and were shocked by the decisions. Some employees were told on the Friday that there was no job for them to come into on the following Monday.

Catherine Barr of Derry’s Women’s Centre strongly criticised the bidding process as well as the decision, which means that some of its core services have now been lost. The government had told groups to bid in partnerships, and the proposal that involved local women’s groups and led by Derry Youth and Community Workshops was rejected. No explanation for the decision was provided by government.

Charles Lamberton of Triax is equally critical of the process, even though Triax was successful in its bid for funding. They are providing a range of training and support services to people across the Derry and Strabane council area who are economically inactive.

It is clear that while there is enormous anger at the decisions taken, the process undertaken by government departments has made the situation very much worse. Bidding processes began late, with decisions taken only at the very last moment. Nor were those decisions consistent with what many in the voluntary sector understood the criteria and level of funding to be. The result if a significant loss of key services, without obvious routes to replace them.

The podcast is hosted on the Holywell Trust website.

Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.    

Belfast Good Friday Agreement - An Explainer Apr 10, 2023

Belfast/Good Friday Agreement analysis opens new Holywell Trust Conversations series

Conversations with key players in the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement negotiations open a new series of podcasts from the peace and reconciliation charity, the Holywell Trust. Suitably, the new series is called the Holywell Trust Conversations, reflecting a more in-depth discussion of topics that are continuing to affect Northern Ireland, and especially the North West – where Holywell is located.

The conversations in this opening podcast are with three central characters in the GFA negotiations – who have very different experiences, based on their varying roles. Avila Kilmurray was a founder of the Women’s Coalition, which came into the negotiations only after the elections that preceded the GFA. Paul Bew, Lord Bew, arrived even later, on the day of the final conclusion of the agreement. By contrast, Irish government official Ray Bassett had been heavily involved for years in multi-party negotiations that culminated in the GFA.

It is worth remembering that bringing peace to NI had been a long-term project. It is easy to forget – as I had – that the initial British government statement that the UK state had no ‘strategic selfish or economic interest in Northern Ireland’ was actually made when Peter Brooke was secretary of state and Margaret Thatcher was still Prime Minister. But Ray Bassett recalls that it was Tony Blair’s arrival as PM that was ‘like a spaceship arriving’ in transforming the atmosphere of the talks. He adds that it was only Blair and Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern that really believed the negotiations would succeed.

Paul Bew reflects that his role was to be a calm voice in David Trimble’s ear, reassuring him that the cross-border bodies would be administrative and did not presage a constitutional revolution. But Paul today expresses concern on how Brexit has created new uncertainties and anxieties that are reminiscent of the fears expressed by many at the time of the GFA.

Avila Kilmurray recalls the significant role the Women’s Coalition made, and the support it received from the then secretary of state Mo Mowlam. It was the background of the members of the Women’s Coalition in community organisations that led to it being effective in demanding commitments not only to support women in society, but also to reconciliation, victims, anti-poverty measures, integrated education and for both the Civic Forum and a Bill of Rights in the final agreement. Not that all these commitments have even now been fulfilled.

The three interviewees make some similar points. There is no affection for the St Andrews Agreement, which made significant amendments to the GFA, but an expression of appreciation and affection for David Ervine and his role in providing support for David Trimble in bringing enough unionists over the line for the GFA to have cross-community support. They all applaud the calm role of George Mitchell, the perfect talks chair.

An explanation of the core elements of the GFA and the subsequent major agreements – St Andrews, Stormont House, Fresh Start and New Decade New Approach – is also included in the podcast.

The podcast is hosted on the Holywell Trust website, along with full length conversations with Avila Kilmurray, Paul Bew and Ray Bassett. All the Holywell Conversations podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 18 - Peter Hain Aug 13, 2021

Boris Johnson, Theresa May and David Cameron must accept part of the responsibility for the continuing “gridlock” of politics in Northern Ireland, through their failure to engage in the political process here, argues former Labour secretary of state Peter Hain. He also allocates blame to Conservative secretaries of state, with the exception of Julian Smith.

Hain says that prime ministers must recognise that their role includes strong engagement with the Northern Ireland parties, in order to keep political progress on track. “You have to be hands-on,” he says of the PMs and secretaries of state. “I think David Cameron and his successors made a basic error in thinking that the job was done when they took office in 2010. And he did not - nor did Theresa May and certainly not Boris Johnson - have the constant focus that Northern Ireland needs, building relationships with all the key political leaders and others, and being there – not on a fly in, fly out basis, or the odd Zoom call for half an hour here and there – but actually constantly engaged.”

He adds that the “unravelling of Stormont” and the crisis over the Northern Ireland Protocol have been the “result” of what he terms the “neglect” by those prime ministers and their secretaries of state. He adds that the UK government must act as the “honest broker” when it comes to Northern Ireland, “but that hasn’t been the case” because of the Conservatives’ relationship with unionism, especially the DUP. “The government aligned itself with one side of the divide,” he continues.

Hain is equally critical of the DUP, and especially the leadership of Arlene Foster, in not moving society and politics forward in recent years. “She didn’t seem to have the ability, or self-confidence, or the leadership calibre to actually lead from the front, and not always do her party’s bidding in a kind of lapdog fashion.”

He adds that Northern Ireland’s politics require leaders who will “lead from the front”, and believes that Jeffrey Donaldson may have that skill and capacity. Hain hopes that Jeffrey Donaldson will prove to be a leader who can take the political process forward, rather than backwards. He calls on the DUP to see Sinn Fein as partners in government, “rather than the devil incarnate”. It is possible to work together, without the two parties liking each other, he stresses.

“Northern Ireland’s political leaders have to decide if they are focused on the future, or trapped by the past,” says Hain. In the interview he also discusses how to make cross-party progress on the reform of the health and education systems, and the role of citizens’ assemblies in creating a strong voice for civic society in Northern Ireland.

This is the 18th and final episode in the third series of Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts. This follows interviews with the leaders of the five political parties in government in Northern Ireland; Simon Hoare MP, who is chair of the House of Commons Northern Ireland Affairs Committee; and sector experts, who have assessed the need for reform of our public services. All the past podcasts are available on the Holywell Trust website.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 17 - Jeffrey Donaldson Aug 06, 2021

Political legacy of distrust cannot be wished away, says Donaldson

The distrust between Northern Ireland’s political parties remains a legacy of the conflict and cannot be wished away or ignored, says DUP leader Jeffrey Donaldson. He adds that the events of the Bobby Storey funeral and commemorations of dead members of the Provisional IRA mean that the Troubles remain a continuing source of tension between the largest parties. He was speaking in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast.

Jeffrey argues that not only are the British government’s legacy proposals unacceptable, but that addressing victims’ unresolved trauma and anger in relation to Troubles’ events is essential to make political progress.

He discusses public services reform, indicating the DUP’s support for the Bengoa health care proposals. He believes that a consensus between the main parties on health care reform is possible, even though it will lead to significant changes in the roles of some local hospitals and health facilities through the centralisation of some specialist acute services.

Jeffrey is more cautious in relation to reform of the school system, restating his party’s strong support for grammar schools. He suggests that more support is instead needed for non-selective schools to raise examination and skills outcomes. He indicates support for the sharing of facilities and teaching between schools, rather than educational integration.

While Jeffrey supports the use of citizens’ assemblies, he stresses that their role must be to assist politicians as they make decisions, rather than to replace politicians’ decision-making role.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 16 - Michelle O'Neill Jul 30, 2021

Legacy is being discussed at length at present, following the British government’s proposals to abandon prosecutions and investigations into Troubles’ events. But there is another toxic legacy – the impact of past events on current political relationships. That aspect of legacy is discussed with Sinn Féin Vice President and Deputy First Minister Michelle O’Neill in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast.

Michelle argues that political leaders must work hard to build trust, to enable the political system here to work more effectively. But she adds that the challenge of the pandemic has created a situation in which ministers have had to work together and this provides an example and basis for future working relationships.

However, she warns that is impossible to fully separate the legacy of the events of the Troubles from current political relationships. It is therefore necessary to deal properly with past events, with the government and all parties accepting responsibilities they have agreed to. She specifies that it is unacceptable for the British government to walk away from the Stormont House Agreement, which was itself a compromise. Michelle stresses that reconciliation should focus more on the future, than on the past.

Michelle also discusses the need for reform of the health and schooling systems. As a former health minister she remains committed to implementation of the Bengoa report proposals, moving towards a more strategic and effective health service, which is focused on service delivery rather than the buildings in which they are delivered. Michelle also calls for much greater all-island co-operation in healthcare delivery.

The role of citizens’ assemblies in resolving extremely challenging policy disputes in the South related to abortion and same sex marriage provides a way forward for the North as well, believes Michelle. She instances reform of the schooling system in a way that brings pupils together across the traditional divides as a possible application of citizens’ assemblies.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 15 - Colum Eastwood Jul 23, 2021

Truth and honesty must be at the heart of how we deal with the legacy of the past and in how politicians in Northern Ireland govern today, says Colum Eastwood, leader of the SDLP and MP for the Foyle constituency. He was speaking in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast and is the third political leader to be interviewed in the series, discussing how to make progress in Northern Ireland.

Victims have been badly treated, stresses Colum, and they need truth and respect.

But Colum also talks at length about the need to reform our education system. He points out that these reforms need to go beyond integrating our children at schools and replacing the system of academic selection, but also to fundamentally review the curriculum that is taught. He adds that Northern Ireland must become a more highly skilled society in order to strengthen and expand our economy.

Colum warns that our society is divided socially, beyond the religious separation, and government must do much more to tackle poverty, while also achieving reconciliation. The SDLP favours the use of citizens assemblies, with Colum arguing that the population is ahead of the politicians in their social attitudes.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 14 - Naomi Long Jul 16, 2021

If we are to make progress in Northern Ireland’s society, we need to reflect carefully on our core values and ensure that these are reflected in the way government works. This is the message put forward by Naomi Long – leader of the Alliance Party and justice minister – in the second of the Holywell Trust’s Forward Together podcast interviews of Northern Ireland’s political leaders.

Among the points stressed by Naomi is that violence is not acceptable as a means of getting what you want. Other core messages are that we must develop strong and positive role models and that the use of children in recent rioting is an example of child abuse.

Naomi is particularly strident in relation to the educational gaps that reflect a child’s social background and family wealth. She points to the deprivation that results from this and flows down through the generations.

The Alliance Party is positive about the potential uses of citizens’ assemblies, which have helped to achieve significant progress in the South and in various other countries. She believes that government in Northern Ireland must work with its own people to co-design services and service delivery.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 13 - Steve Aiken Jul 09, 2021

The third series of Holywell Trust’s Forward Together podcasts has heard from experts in a range of areas – including the economy, skills, education, young people’s experience, housing - and also considered best practice elsewhere. As it moves towards a close, it puts the arguments for major change in the governance of Northern Ireland to our political leaders.

In the first of this closing series of podcasts, we spoke to Steve Aiken – who at the time was still leader of the Ulster Unionist Party. (We did not predict his early demise as party leader. Neither did he, judging by the conversation.)

Steve made interesting, if challenging, comments around the political aspects of the legacy of past conflict, and its impact on relationships today. He argues that consideration of the past must be contextualised, but also that the past for many people here resonates into their lives today. We have not succeeded putting the past into the past.

Equally controversially, Steve sees the best approach to health services reform to involve joint action with Great Britain. He also discusses education reform and how best to improve citizen engagement and his approach to citizens’ assemblies.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 12 - Ann Watt Jul 02, 2021

Northern Ireland’s economy has a number of weaknesses. At the heart of these is the shortage of skills – higher levels of skills moves an economy up the value chain, leading to improved productivity and greater wealth.

Too many of NI’s school leavers have lower levels of qualifications and skills than are needed for the modern economy. This reduces their prospects for obtaining well paid jobs, while some will become long-term unemployed or economically inactive. NI has the UK’s highest rate of economic inactivity.

A recent report from the Pivotal think-tank considered these challenges and how we should strengthen the education and skills environment for 14 to 19 year olds. Solutions include greater focus on vocational skills, strengthening the careers guidance system and providing strong role models. But at the heart of the difficulties lies the issues around the selective school system, dividing children at a young age between those regarded as potentially academic and those not academic.

There is a related concern around the academic streaming of school pupils. Around a third of school leavers in NI who go on to university do so in GB, not in NI. Most of those do not return. Meanwhile, many businesses here are disadvantaged by the shortage of graduate level skills, whereas many NI graduates go into the public rather than the private sector.

These structural weaknesses have been made worse by cuts to public funding of NI universities over recent years. Admissions are already controlled by the cap of student numbers in NI – a system abolished many years ago in England.

This leaves a system in which large numbers of young adults depart NI for GB – some out of choice, others out of necessity because of shortage of university places. Few students from other places choose to study in NI, so there is little replacement of the lost talent.

Northern Ireland is left with a labour market with significant skills weaknesses, while the social implications are also profound – through lower incomes, as well as families separated because children depart and do not return. Those who are unable to gain well paid work through having too few skills may also be more vulnerable to recruitment from paramilitaries and other organised criminal gangs.

The skills environment is discussed with the chief executive of the Pivotal think tank Ann Watt in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 11 - John Restakis Jun 25, 2021

Social care provision is in crisis across much of the world. How can the quality of care be maintained or improved? How can it be made available to those who need it? And how can social care be carried out in an affordable way without underpaying or exploiting its workers? These questions are being asked in many countries and regions. Italy has come up with its own answer – social co-operatives – and its model is being copied across much of Europe.

The latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast interviews John Restakis, who is executive director of Community Evolution Foundation, which describes itself as “a community economic development organisation that partners with cooperatives and community-based enterprises to help communities gain control of their local economies”. He has studied the experience of social co-ops in Italy.

A previous podcast considered the example of the Mondragon Federation in the Basque area of Spain, which is a substantial organisation that contains some very large co-operatives. By contrast, the social co-ops in Italy are much smaller, yet have benefited from the strength of representation by their own federations.

Italy’s social co-ops provide a range of social services, with those who work in the co-operatives and those who benefit from their services being members, providing effective representation of different interests in the management of the organisations. As well as social services, some of the co-ops are focused on labour integration. In these co-ops, people who have become marginalised from the labour market – for example, ex-prisoners and those who have recovered from drug addiction – are reintegrated into the workforce, while being properly paid for their work.

Italy’s social co-ops have gained strength not only from sector representation and lobbying, but also through support from political parties. This has led to tax exemptions, access to special loan facilities and preferential purchasing policies. If the co-ops are wound-up, the value of assets cannot be distributed to members – providing a protection that the benefits of the co-ops cannot be removed as a reward for a small number of people.

Does the experience of social co-ops provide a model that could be adopted in Northern Ireland? John is talking with Paul Gosling, who has written a study on Italy’s social co-ops.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 10 - Paddy Gray Jun 18, 2021

For all the focus on integrated education, if communities continue to live separately then little progress will be made towards integrating our society. So developing more areas of shared housing is essential if we are to make progress.

But the lack of genuinely shared communities is only one of the housing challenges facing Northern Ireland today. There is more generally a shortage of social housing, compared with demand, leading to increasing waiting lists.

This is not simply a matter of demography. It also reflects the number of properties bought under right to buy, limiting the availability of properties. Yet many former social housing units that are now in private ownership are today let as private rental – a sector that has grown substantially in recent years. Parts of the private rental market are of poor quality, offering tenants a diminished quality of life.

Meanwhile, the Housing Executive is facing serious difficulties in meeting demand, with limited resources. Operating as part of the public sector, it has restrictions on its borrowing ability – leading to proposals for its conversion into a mutually owned body that is taken out of the public sector. If it happens it will enable improved ability to borrow against its assets to build new homes and improve the quality of its existing housing stock. But opponents describe this as privatisation of public assets.

These are the issues discussed in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast with Paddy Gray, emeritus professor of housing with Ulster University and former president of the Chartered Institute of Housing.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 9 - Neil McInroy Jun 11, 2021

Concentration of the retail and consumer services sectors in the hands of a limited number of multinational corporations sucks wealth out of local communities and into the hands of shareholders based elsewhere. So should the response be to build the local economy by supporting independent businesses based in those localities, while maximising the spend of public institutions in their local communities?

That is the approach adopted through 'community wealth building', often termed 'the Preston model'. Preston is a council in Lancashire, England, which is a member of the co-operative network of councils. It has become an exemplar for a localised approach to economic development, building on previous attempts to retain spending in local communities, such as the Local Exchange Trading System.

In the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast interview, Neil McInroy of the Centre for Local Economic Strategies (CLES) discusses the experience of Preston and other towns that have adopted community wealth building practices. He talks about whether that experience can be replicated in Northern Ireland and his work here in developing strategies to support local economic development. He is strongly committed to bottom up, rather than top down, approaches - building local skills and initiatives, rather than relying on inward investment.

The interview can be heard here. Further information on community wealth building is available on the CLES website. This is one of a series of conversations about what can be learnt from best practice in community and economic development elsewhere.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 8 - Prof. Fred Freundlich Jun 04, 2021

The Mondragon federation of co-operatives has been the foundation of the economy in Spain's Basque country for decades. It was founded back in 1956 by a priest - José María Arizmendiarrieta - who believed that the best response to the hostility and neglect of the region by the fascist dictator Franco was to develop co-operatives that relied on mutual self-help and independence.

Today there are 96 co-operatives which are members of the federation, employing more than 81,000 people. The federation includes manufacturing businesses, financial institutions, retailers and its own university - which operates as a knowledge, research and development centre for the group. Mondragon is the largest business operation in the Basque region and one of the ten largest commercial organisations in Spain.

There are similarities and differences between the Basque region and Northern Ireland. It is the similarities that have led many people over the years to ask if the Mondragon example could inspire a comparable movement here. The positive experience of credit unions - financial co-operatives - in Northern Ireland provides hope that it might.

In the latest Holywell Trust podcast, Fred Freundlich, a professor at Mondragon University, discusses what can be learnt from Mondragon and whether its success can be replicated.The interview can be heard here. It is one of a series of conversations about what can be learnt from best practice in community and economic development elsewhere.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 7 - Koulla Yaisouma May 28, 2021

While it is frequently claimed that Northern Ireland has an excellent schools system, it is clear that it is also a divided system. That division is not just based on religion, but also whether a pupil attends a grammar or a non-selective school, which is related to the wealth of the parents. The system clearly separates children, despite the need of our society to come together to heal division.

This week’s Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast hears from Northern Ireland’s Commissioner for Children and Young People, Koulla Yiasouma, on how we repair the damage of that division. The conversation considers pre-school childcare, the age at which children should start school and the relationship between parental wealth and the system of selection. Koulla wants school reforms to make sufficient progress that all parents have the confidence to send their children to their local school.

We also discuss the need for strong, positive role models that engage children, especially working class boys. Koulla is clear that rather than talking about the influence of paramilitaries in some communities, we need to call them what they are – organised criminal gangs.

The interview can be heard here.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 6 - Jane Suiter May 21, 2021

In all the dozens of podcast interviews broadcast by the Holywell Trust, one idea to strengthen our society has been put forward repeatedly – citizens’ assemblies. They are not universally popular – both DUP and Conservative Party politicians have expressed concerns they would undermine the link between elected representatives and their constituents, threatening politicians’ legitimacy.

But the experience of Ireland’s citizens’ assemblies has inspired many. Assemblies provided routes to resolving politically challenging issues: same sex marriage, abortion, climate change and, now, gender inequality. And in Northern Ireland we seem bound into a future programme of the assemblies given that New Decade New Approach commits to at least one per year, possibly more, and incoming DUP leader Edwin Poots has promised that all of the NDNA will be implemented.

The principle behind citizens’ assemblies is that a randomised selection of the population, representative of the population, comes together to consider in detail a policy challenge. Members will be informed by experts and then deliberate carefully, before reaching their conclusions. The format has not only produced intelligent and careful proposals, but has been trusted by the wider population to be fair and balanced.

In the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast, Jane Suiter of Dublin City University provides her expert view of how citizens’ assemblies work and their strengths and weaknesses. She is one of the people most closely involved in Ireland’s citizens’ assemblies. Jane is not only professor of communications at DCU and director of its Institute for Future Media, Democracy and Society, but she is also senior research fellow with Ireland’s citizens’ assembly on gender equality, having been intimately involved with citizens’ assemblies and other forms of deliberative democracy for more than a decade.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 5 - Lillian Senoi-Barr May 14, 2021

Northern Ireland is a different place today, than when the Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998. It is not just that many more people here today do not feel aligned to the traditional unionist and nationalist/republican identities, but we have many more ‘new citizens’ from other places.

Lilian Seenoi-Barr is a well-known advocate for black and minority ethnic communities in Northern Ireland, as director of the North West Migrants Forum. In the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast Lilian discusses identity and the rise of racism in Northern Ireland.

It is necessary to recognise that the arguments for a more integrated society go beyond the need to bring Protestant and Catholic populations together. The section of our population that is ‘other’ is very large and growing. This raises important questions about whether the Good Friday Agreement has become out-of-date – and, if so, how weaknesses in its arrangements can be addressed. The strains in our education and housing systems are showing, as are those of the declarations of identity within the Northern Ireland Assembly. Brexit has added new tensions to old problems, especially as our society becomes more diverse.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 4 - Seamus McGuinness May 07, 2021

Never mind Bill Clinton saying, ‘it’s the economy, stupid’, the answers to Northern Ireland’s difficulties are instead perhaps Tony Blair’s mantra, ‘education, education, education’. In fact, the main way to tackle the economic problems of Northern Ireland are arguably to focus on education and skills.

Seamus McGuinness, research professor at the Economic and Social Research Institute, discusses the weaknesses of Northern Ireland’s education and skills system in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast. Although ESRI is based in Dublin, Seamus is an expert on the labour market in the North.

Seamus is particularly concerned at the impact of academic selection on the aspirations of pupils from working class backgrounds and how alienation from schooling affects joblessness over the longer-term. He discusses the role of further education colleges, arguing that the shortage of high level vocational skills is a specific and serious problem for Northern Ireland that must be addressed as a priority.

The brain drain out of Northern Ireland is also discussed.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 3 - Tony Gallagher Apr 30, 2021

Education is the key to progress

Education is the key to moving our society forward, says Tony Gallagher in the latest Forward Together podcast interview. But that has to mean much more than encouraging as many students as possible to go to university and obtain a degree. Our society has become fixated with university education, at the expense of school pupils who do not aspire to higher education.

More has to be done to support children from deprived families, to encourage them through careers guidance and to promote aspiration. Support has to begin in children's early years, before they start attending school.

In order to provide a more inclusive education system, it is necessary that there is a better understanding of the experience of school pupils who do not go on to university, says Tony. He is frustrated at the lack of data collected on school leavers who do not choose an academic route - many of whom become alienated from the labour market. We know little about their progress through life, making it difficult to take the action necessary to assist them, or improve post-primary education for those who leave school without good qualifications or skills.

We need to reflect on the education system we have in Northern Ireland, including the extent to which schools co-operate with each other. It is essential that the learning communities that provide a wider subject choice at sixth form level work effectively.

Tony is professor of education at Queen's University.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 2 - Duncan Morrow Apr 23, 2021

The GFA brought peace - but paramilitaries haven’t gone away

The Good Friday Agreement ended the bitter conflict, but failed to eliminate the poison of paramilitarism. In the latest Forward Together interview recorded before the loyalist street riots protesting against the Brexit Protocol and the latest paramilitary shootings in Derry, Duncan Morrow considers the limitations of the GFA. Northern Ireland remains overshadowed by paramilitaries that claim a political motivation, yet are engaged in criminal enterprises that include the drug trade, protection rackets and loan sharking.

Can the GFA now be amended, or would that unpick the essential elements of the agreement, wonders Duncan. But the absence of an effective remedy for paramilitaries is not the only weakness of the GFA, which arguably ingrained the concept of Northern Ireland consisting of two, opposed, communities and traditions. That ignores the growing part of our society that does not identify as either unionist or nationalist/republican.

Duncan is a social policy professor, lecturer in politics and director of community engagement at Ulster University and for ten years was chief executive of the Community Relations Council. He has been an election candidate for the Alliance Party. The interview with Duncan can be listened to here.

The Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts are funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Series 3 - Episode 1 - Simon Hoare MP Apr 16, 2021

Holywell Trust’s third series of Forward Together podcasts is now live! As with the previous series, the focus is on how to make progress in Northern Ireland and heal its divided society.

In these latest podcasts we consider some of the ideas that emerged from previous interviews – which were edited together into the book, ‘Lessons from the Troubles and the Unsettled Peace’. Unfortunately, recent events make these ideas even more relevant for urgent consideration.

Suggestions discussed further in the latest podcasts include how to reduce tension and improve relationships at interface areas; how to make our society more shared and integrated; how to tackle the role and influence of paramilitaries; and what role citizens’ assemblies can play in strengthening relationships across the community divide and in achieving agreed outcomes to our most difficult challenges.

Many of the conversations came back to some core themes, which may not be obvious in terms of dealing with the tensions in our society. One of those is the need to improve engagement at schools to keep pupils committed to learning, with the result that school leavers have the skills employers need and which can drive economic investment and wealth creation across our society. This, in turn, can assist in tackling the deprivation and social alienation that may be factors in recent unrest.

The first interview is with Simon Hoare MP, who is chair of the House of Commons Northern Ireland Select Committee and Conservative MP for North Dorset. Simon argues that the core challenge in Northern Ireland is finding ways to develop trust between the political parties and communities. He believes that to do that the main parties need to find some core policies and objectives that they can agree on and work back from that in terms of their approach to governing.

Simon is sceptical of the role of citizens’ assemblies, believing they undermine the role of elected and representative democracy, which he argues must have at its core citizen engagement.

Series 2 - Summary Session Oct 05, 2020

Eighteen podcasts and Slugger blogs were produced in the second series of the Holywell Trust’s Forward Together programme. With the completion of that programme, the Holywell Trust held a discussion on the themes considered by the series, which focused on creating a better governed society, with more integration and improved outcomes.

The discussion was held as part of Good Relations Week 2020, bringing together the chief executive of the Pivotal think-tank, Ann Watt; Northern Ireland’s interim Mental Health Champion Siobhan O’Neill, who is also Professor of Mental Health Sciences at Ulster University, along with Paul Gosling, as the interviewer of the 18 experts, and Gerard Deane, chief executive of Holywell Trust.

The discussion considered the lessons that can be learnt regarding governance and accountability in Northern Irish society and how to improve public services, including education. The Forward Together programme has been funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme. Past podcasts can be accessed on the Holywell Trust website. A book will be published in the coming weeks, bringing together the thoughts and ideas from the first series of Forward Together interviews.

S2 - Episode 18 - Ann Watt Aug 17, 2020

'I'm talking about a culture change in government in Northern Ireland: I mean the civil service and politicians'

Evidence-based policy-making is largely absent from government in Northern Ireland, but the new Pivotal think-tank has been established to correct that, says its director Ann Watt. She was speaking in the last of the second series of Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts.

The aim of Pivotal “is to help improve public policy in Northern Ireland,” says Ann. “It’s got a strong emphasis on research and evidence and on using evidence better in public policy.” The very first Pivotal report, published in November last year, made a big splash through its focus on waiting lists and waiting times in the NHS locally, stressing that numerically the Northern Ireland waiting list is more than a hundred times longer than that in England, despite England being almost 30 times’ larger in terms of population.

Pivotal is the first think-tank established specifically to consider governance in Northern Ireland, despite these being a normal feature of Great Britain, Ireland and most developed nations. Pivotal is backed by the north’s two universities and Ann herself is a former Cabinet Office and Treasury civil servant. “So I’ve got lots of experience in policymaking and policy delivery” as well as “a background in economics”, she explains. “Evidence-based policymaking was very much central to what I did in my civil service days.”

By contrast, in Northern Ireland, “there’s been a reluctance to take the tough choices”, specifically in the NHS, “which might not be popular, but actually would deliver a better health service in the longer run,” says Ann. She explains that “reform in health and social care... might mean reconfiguring services so that particular aspects of healthcare happen in specialist centres, rather than in a wider set of hospitals across the country.”

Coalitions always make decision-making more difficult, and Ann concedes that “having a five party coalition makes government work more difficult”. She adds: “I think it’s particularly difficult for the Northern Ireland Executive because you’ve got departments headed by different ministers from different parties and without a clear common purpose.” This makes the natural ‘silo’ division between government departments even worse.

Ann does not understate the challenge facing Northern Ireland, which was clearly evident from the RHI debacle. “I think that the big, big thing in our good government report [published in March] was the need for a real change in the culture at Stormont.” This requires the parties and departments to work together, with more long-term policymaking.

While the process for agreeing a Programme for Government in Northern Ireland has been flawed, Ann argues that in itself “it is a good step in the right direction.” But she continues: “I think it needs to be developed and refined and, really importantly, it needs to the genuine set of objectives that government are jointly bought into and committed to.”

Northern Ireland’s weaknesses in government go beyond the political parties and into the heart of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, as was evident from Sir Patrick Coghlin’s report into RHI. “One clear recommendation from the report is recognising the civil service doesn’t have the skills that it needs in either training its own people up so that they have those skills, or getting external people in.... At the very end of Sir Patrick’s introductory remarks, he talked about RHI being a project too far for Stormont. It was just too complex, too technical. You got the sense that there wasn’t a full understanding of it.”

Part of the required culture change for the NICS might be achieved through greater diversity in the workforce, bringing people in from other jurisdictions and with different experience. “Any organisation that thinks it hasn’t got things to learn from other people is probably really falling short, because we’ve always got things to learn,” observes Ann. “Every organisation, every individual, every team should be thinking, how can I continue to get better? How can I improve? One of the ways I’ve seen individuals and teams and organisations improve is, over time, being much more open and willing to learn from others and having those interchanges with others... There needs to be much more openness to ideas from outside”, including from Pivotal and other think-tanks, academics and business groups.

“When I talk about a culture change in government, yes I mean the civil service and politicians as well. I think we have to have a situation where there is not a monopoly on policymaking amongst civil servants or politicians... they are not the only ones with good ideas... There is so much value in listening to and understanding the perspectives of people outside who may actually have far more expertise and far more insights about how policy works in practice.”

Pivotal has more reports being prepared and is considering what Northern Ireland should look like in 20 years’ time and what type of place its citizens want to live in. Meanwhile, the Holywell Trust’s Forward Together programme is also moving to the next stage, with a book to be published in the coming weeks featuring ideas for making progress in Northern Ireland suggested by interviewees in the first series of podcast interviews. A streamed panel event will take place on the 15th September to reflect on the observations in this second series of interviews, which will itself form a new podcast to be released soon after.

The latest podcast in the second Forward Together series, featuring Ann, is available here on the website of peace and reconciliation charity Holywell Trust. It is funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

S2 - Episode 17 - Seamus McGuinness Aug 10, 2020

‘It is absolutely crazy to think that constitutional change in Ireland would happen overnight’
Consideration of Irish unity needs careful preparation, argues Seamus McGuinness, research
professor at the Republic’s Economic and Social Research Institute. He suggests looking to the
example of Hong Kong, where the handover of control was undertaken over a 13 year period.
Seamus was talking in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast.
The difference in economic performance, North and South, sits “at the centre of debate around
constitutional change,” believes Seamus. “I come at it from the perspective of someone who worked
as an economist in Belfast for the first 10 or 12 years of my career, and now has spent around the
same amount of time looking at the issues relevant to the Irish economy.
“There are a number of differences, but the central differences between the economies North and
South really relate to differences in the level of productivity and the extent to which they exhibit
dynamic growth and are able to respond to shocks.”
Seamus explains: “There are fundamental underlying differences that drive lower productivity... The
first relates to human capital – we see that levels of educational attainment in the North are really
lagging other British regions and the Republic of Ireland. I have to say this, actually, was a shock to
me as someone who works in the Republic and is domiciled in the North. When I looked at the
data.”
Seamus points out that in 2015, over 35% of young people, 24 to 30, in Northern Ireland were
educated only to the lowest level, compared to 11% in the Republic. And while 40% of young adults
in the North hold third level qualifications, the figure was around 60% in the Republic. “So that’s a
key aspect,” of the difference in economic performance, argues Seamus.
Another factor is that the Republic is much more export-focused than is the North. Exports are
worth about 15% of Northern Ireland’s economy, or 35% if GB is included, compared to 54% in the
Republic. In addition, “the export sector in the Republic is much more value added than in the
North.” And, of course, the Republic has been very much more effective in attracting foreign direct
investment than the North, with the South’s FDI being highly productive.
The composition of the two economies also differs. While that in the North remains highly
dependent on public services, the private services sector in the Republic is very much larger than
that of the North. The Republic also has a large presence in the pharmaceutical, technology and
advanced services sectors. “A lot of that really stems from the success of the IDA,” the body that
promotes inward investment and economic development in the Republic, “in bringing these large
multi-nationals into Ireland – and the policies that have facilitated indigenous companies to grow up
around them.”
One of the disappointments about Northern Ireland is that the Good Friday Agreement did not
stimulate a greater economic impact. “When I looked at the data, one of the things that baffled me
was that we should have seen a peace dividend of some description.... I do wonder why foreign
direct investment has not been a bigger feature. And why bodies such as Invest NI have not been
more successful over the period in bringing large multinationals into the North, as the IDA has been
in the South.”
The difference in effectiveness between the IDA and Invest NI points to the opportunities that might
be achieved by greater cross-border co-operation, irrespective of whether the constitutional
settlement should change, believes Seamus. “Just thinking strategically... there are clear
opportunities for cross-border co-operation in a number of areas that are just so obvious and
mutually beneficial that should be pursued. The obvious case is health services. Another is around
infrastructural planning, but another is economic development.... You can only imagine that the
North would be a net beneficiary of that joint approach.”
Seamus concedes, though, that Brexit does reduce the attractiveness of Northern Ireland as a
foreign direct investment location. What Brexit achieves instead is accelerate the debate over
Northern Ireland’s constitutional situation – generating a much louder conversation over Irish unity.
This stimulated a major research publication, The Political Economy of the Northern Ireland Border
Poll, from Seamus, along with colleague Adele Bergin at ESRI.
“Without a doubt, in the absence of Brexit we wouldn’t be having this conversation.... The issue of
Brexit has put the question of the constitutional future of the North more centre stage. Even without
Brexit we know that there are continued demographic changes taking place that are likely to make a
border poll arise at some point in the future... But Brexit has made this likely sooner rather than
later.”
What is essential, believes Seamus, is to avoid the mistakes of the Brexit referendum by having an
evidence base “so that, when the time comes, people can make an informed opinion”. That evidence
base should consider the economic arguments, which include, says Seamus, that households in the
South are almost €3,000 a year better off after tax, while households in the North are at a
substantially higher risk of poverty compared to those in the Republic.
Seamus admits that at present it is not possible to predict the overall impact of unification, nor to
know the process by which it would take place. These are questions that planning and intergovernment negotiations must address. But it is “absolutely crazy”, he says, to think that
constitutional change would happen overnight, instancing the 13 year transition of Hong Kong from
UK to Chinese rule.
This latest podcast in the second Forward Together series is available here on the
website of peace and reconciliation charity Holywell Trust. It is funded by the
Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.
Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland
Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society
characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence.
The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

S2 - Episode 16 - Ian Marshall Aug 03, 2020

’The unity conversation needs to be open, transparent, and let's keep open minds, because we need to flesh out what Irish unity would look like and what the UK union would look like’

Ian Marshall is a beef farmer, a former dairy farmer, and was president of the Ulster Farmers Union from 2014 to 2016. But more significantly he was until earlier this year a senator in Ireland’s Oireachtas – a unionist in Ireland’s second legislative chamber. A quite remarkable situation. Many observers were disappointed – as was Ian – that he was not elected back into the Seanad’s agricultural panel, nor appointed on the lists of new Taoiseach Micheál Martin or the other coalition party leaders Leo Varadkar and Eamon Ryan. Ian was speaking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.

He reflects on his initial election. “The opportunity was something I hadn’t anticipated or prepared for. It was a fascinating two years. I work in Queen’s, so I have an office in Belfast that's 104 miles from the office I had at Leinster House. The reality is that it's light years in understanding. It's light years because the people in Belfast have very little knowledge of Dublin, of the South, of what goes on. There's an equal lack of knowledge in Dublin as regards Belfast, about Northern Ireland and the culture, which seems bizarre because we're a small island and we're neighbours.”

Despite this, Ian felt much more welcomed in the Seanad than he expected. “I was nervous. I was always told that Dublin was a cold house for unionism. But it was a warm reception. It was very welcoming. And I was told that you're a Northern unionist, be very proud of your identity, you’re not here to be any more than that. So from the first day, inside Leinster House, it was very warm, welcoming.”

Some unionists were reportedly unhappy that someone from their background and affiliation went to Dublin to sit in the Oireachtas. “The reality was that there was some noise from some individuals, but not very much,” recalls Ian. “The vast majority of political leaders were very supportive. Privately, they were very supportive of me. They thought that we needed dialogue with Dublin... the private conversations were very positive, upbeat and supportive.”

Ian reflects that much needs to be done to connect the two jurisdictions. “I learned that there is still a lot of work to do, still a lot of bridge building to do.... We're 22 years on from the signing of the Belfast Agreement and we're in a truly global marketplace now. There are huge benefits working together across an island, which should present no threat to anyone's constitution. I see huge opportunity. I see a generation of people coming on who have never experienced the Troubles, who haven't experienced the sectarianism, the bigotry, the hatred that many of us grew up in, which is a breath of fresh air. And I believe that's the future. The younger people who are coming on who don’t carry this baggage and certainly don't have the prejudices that many of the older generation may have.”

One of the false perceptions Ian met in Dublin was that unionists are unable to enjoy themselves. “When I first went to Dublin and I spoke to a number of people who said, oh, you're a northern unionist. We assume a number of things about you. You're very conservative. And you wouldn't take a drink, you wouldn't have fun. I said, no, we’re actually a very open minded bunch. We're not at all conservative, we are forward looking. So I think there's a lot of misconceptions of Northern unionists.

“The misconception that I pick up in Northern Ireland about the South is that there’s this appetite by everyone to have Irish unity. Certainly there are many, many people who want to strive for Irish unity, which they are perfectly entitled to do, but equally there are many, many people south of the border who say, you know what, not at the moment.

“I think the best analogy was someone in Leinster House who said to me that the Irish unity question was a bit like heaven. That sounds like a really good idea, but we're not ready for it now…. For most people it is about uniting people across the island.”

He argues: “The way you unite people is to bring people together. So that's by virtue of organisations, sport, for example rugby. Rugby has presented a platform where irrespective of whether you're from a nationalist background, a unionist background, a loyalist background, or a republican background, everyone follows the Irish rugby team. It presents no threat to anyone's culture, identity and the model would be something that unites people as well as rugby does. We can replicate that through other parts of society. So I think this is about uniting people, uniting young people, getting schools to work together.

“Businesses already work together. There's a huge all-Ireland economy, which can be so much greater. And I think that we need to do that in conjunction with an acknowledgement that North-South relations are hugely important, but equally so are the East-West relations, because those are important as we go forward, looking at how we build two islands working together.”
Perhaps a more surprising observation from Ian is that his experience of the Seanad has made him a strong supporter of second chambers – despite the proposal to scrap the Seanad only seven years ago. “What I've learned in the last two years is the importance of an upper house,” he says. “The interesting thing is that we have a Senate chamber in Belfast, in Parliament Buildings. We used to have senators. I think there's huge value in reinstating an upper house... [as] a scrutinising body. It's a governance structure. It will cross reference, check legislation. It will perform a task of scrutinising the legislation that comes before it... [We could] use an upper house [in Stormont] as a mechanism to drive good governance, good government.”

Ian is committed to improving engagement across the political divide, within Northern Ireland and cross-border. “There needs to be a constitutional conversation,” he says. “The difficulty is effectively the conversation has been presented in such a way as this is a conversation about Irish unity. And the analogy I draw is that it's like going to turkeys to have a discussion about Christmas dinner and what stuffing they would like - why on earth would a turkey ever get involved in that conversation?

“So for me, the unity conversation needs to be open, transparent, and let's keep open minds, because we need to flush out what the Irish unity situation would look like, what the maintenance of the UK union would look like, how the island would function. How would it affect education, healthcare, society, how would businesses function, would we ultimately be richer or poorer? In the absence of that conversation, it's a very dangerous conversation to have...

“You need to present all the information to people, so that people know what it would look like, so that people can judge whether they will be richer or poorer, better or worse off. And then, and only then at that point, it's perfectly reasonable to ask those people to take a vote on that.”

This latest podcast in the second Forward Together series is available here on the website of peace and reconciliation charity Holywell Trust. It is funded by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

S2 - Episode 15 - Will Glendinning Jul 27, 2020

‘A united Ireland that is socially liberally, tolerant, European and economically successful is attractive’

Irish unity could be an attractive option if the new nation is socially liberal, outward looking, multi-cultural, European and economically successfully, while respecting both the Irish and British cultures and traditions, believes Will Glendinning. To be economically successful it may need support from both the European Union and the United States, he adds. Will is a former chief executive of the Community Relations Council, has been an Alliance Party MLA for West Belfast and was also a member of the UDR. He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.

Will’s family history brings together different traditions of Northern Irish politics. His great grandfather on his father’s side was Sir Robert Glendinning, a Liberal MP at the beginning of the 20th Century, who was a supporter of Home Rule for Ireland. But a grandfather on his mother’s side was a Unionist MP in Stormont, who had opposed Home Rule. “There was a marriage that occurred in the middle of the schism,” he observes.

It might be argued that there is something of a parallel between the point in history that debated Home Rule and contemporary politics, where Irish unity is beginning to be actively considered. It is a topic Will is seriously engaged in. He has concluded that a change in the constitutional settlement could be positive. “I have reached the position that someone from my background could see myself voting for a united Ireland, or for a new Ireland, if what was on offer was beneficial.”

Will explains: “During my time in politics, I always argued for the issue of consent. That was one of the big advantages I saw for the Good Friday Agreement, that the issue of consent was fully recognised and indeed that consent was an all-Ireland consent. The thing that I think is important in this debate is that unionism was given an opt-out from any all-Ireland structures because it saw itself as a minority in the island of Ireland.

“But the problem for unionism is that it never treated the minority in its own midst with the generosity it should have done… and indeed opposed issues of equality all the way through the development of fair employment laws, and right up to same sex marriage and abortion.”

Will is concerned that, despite this, republicans need, where they have power in local or central government, to demonstrate a much greater generosity of spirit towards unionists than was shown to them.

“That's one of the reasons why I was very taken with Seamus Mallon’s book ‘A Shared Home Place’, because he argued very strongly that if there is to be a change in the constitutional nature, the danger is that it is 50% plus one and that therefore you end up with a [disaffected] minority in the island of Ireland….

“Mallon doesn't argue that you have to have a majority of unionists. What he does argue is that you have to have a sufficient number of unionists. I would take an analogy back to another change process that we had to undergo, which was the change in policing. Policing, if it is if it is to be effective, needs to be by consent rather than by force. One of the big changes was a whole change in structure from the RUC to the PSNI, a whole change in ethos, changes of symbols and also changes in the recruitment process to bring about an increase in the number of people from the Catholic and nationalist community into the PSNI.

“Now we can argue about how effective or ineffective that has been - numbers inside the police still do not reflect the make-up of the of the population. But I think before we come to a point where we have a referendum, we need to have the discussion about what the new Ireland would look like - in the same way that in the Republic they had discussions over the same sex marriage referendum and particularly over the abortion referendum, where they developed a consensus on what was on offer – [in the same way there must be discussion] across the island about what was is on offer [in a new Ireland], and only then do you reach the position of having a referendum on any future. So, in other words, you know what is possible.

“From a unionists’ point of view, to enter into those conversations it needs to be recognised that they are entering into them in a position where they can come out the other end – if they go in knowing they are going to lose, whether it is five-nil or three-two, is not a way for those conversations to take place.”

As discussion has advanced over the possible form of Irish unity, so the question arises whether Stormont should be retained or abandoned – and if it is retained whether it should be for the existing six counties of Northern Ireland or the nine counties of the Ulster province – and whether the other provinces should also have their own legislative assemblies. Will argues: “There would still need to have a devolved legislature inside Northern Ireland…. There would need to be a recognition of the position of the monarch.

“And, also, there would need to be, as with the unification of Germany, a guarantee of funding for a period of time until the two economies got together. A further thing, there would need to be discussion of the issue of dealing with the past, through the 1960s and 1970s, up to the 1990s.”

Will believes that politicians present more of a barrier to progress than people within the communities of Northern Ireland. “I have seen many examples of situations where people from very different backgrounds have been prepared to listen and talk, to hear the stories from the other side. And I think that sometimes, actually the community is further along than the politicians are. I recognize that that is not the case in the most deprived areas. Not in the case sometimes in areas where the degrees of segregation, etc., remain as high as they did [during the Troubles].”

S2 - Episode 14 - Julie-Anne Corr-Johnston Jul 20, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

“You can’t rely on a political culture of respect when one doesn’t actually exist”

Unionists should engage in the conversation around the proposal for a Bill of Rights, recognising that it can help protect their interests and human rights, says former Progressive Unionist Party councillor Julie-Anne Corr-Johnstone. She was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.

“I think human rights themselves are important because they help protect against abuse by those who are more powerful”, says Julie-Anne. A Bill of Rights can also be used as a means of fighting corruption, she suggests.

“No society is perfect, not least Northern Ireland. A Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland in my opinion is important for a number of reasons. First, the primary reason, is that it was mandated for by the people of Northern Ireland via the Belfast Agreement referendum and all the subsequent agreements that came on the back of that. The objective was to entrench those human rights that we all enjoy. It built on a rights-based society that was emerging from conflict and which was one with a history of political bias and discrimination.”

She stresses that the Progressive Unionist Party – she is a former member – has for a long period “been very strongly supportive of a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights - and we have engaged on that subject. We had various engagements with the Human Rights Commission, with the Equality Commission, and we support the work that they do within Northern Ireland.”

Yet there is a strong perception in parts of unionism that a Bill of Rights is a demand of republicans and nationalists and therefore not in the interests of loyalists and unionists. This is a mistake, Julie-Anne believes.

“It hasn't always been seen through the lens of sectarian divisions,” she insists. “The very concept of a Bill of Rights pre-dates the Good Friday Agreement / the Belfast Agreement and was lobbied for at one point by unionist parties, going back to the 1970s I think. It has had over the years had intermittent support. But [unionism] has moved towards a position of being in favour of a UK-wide Bill of Rights, rather than Northern Ireland-specific. I think that is largely the result of the psychological and physical barriers that have emerged post-Good Friday Agreement.”

For many unionists it was comments by Gerry Adams about using demands for equality to “break” unionism that made the call for a Bill of Rights so contentious. Yet the reality is that many working class loyalist communities are seriously deprived and might be among the very people most likely to benefit from a recognition of socio-economic rights, access of high quality healthcare and housing and equality in education provision.

Describing herself as a “pragmatic unionist”, Julie-Anne rejects the idea that a Bill of Rights could advance the cause of Irish unity, suggesting instead that the absence of one weakens the Union. The words of Adams created the psychological barrier to engagement by many unionists in discussions around a Bill of Rights, while “institutionalised sectarianism” in Northern Ireland society provides the physical barrier to engagement.

“Every election in Northern Ireland is a constitutional show of strength, rather than a mandate for social-economic change. I think that for unionists like myself who measure the strength of the Union not by any political party’s electoral strength, but by the social-economic wealth and the quality of life that citizens here enjoy, it is paramount to securing the future of the Union that we move to bring into play a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights.”

Julie-Anne continues: “Socio-economic inequalities and disadvantages don't have a nationality or religious background or sexual orientation. They present themselves and their effects across society and that's a problem for us all. I think that rights-based approaches should be apolitical….That's the right approach in terms of finding the right balance for us all.”

She continues: “A Bill of Rights transcends that civil liberties, social freedoms, political liberties and security [approach]. It encompasses a rights-based approach to deprivation and social and economic inequality that in my view would strengthen the Union.”

Julie-Anne stresses: “It is well documented that Protestant boys are those most disadvantaged in the education system. And I think that a Bill of Rights would help further advance their cause and place a moral obligation on those who are charged with leading that department and those in the Executive, providing mechanisms for accountability when those standards have been contravened.”

She argues that the Belfast Agreement / Good Friday Agreement was clear that it intended a Bill of Rights to supplement the Universal Declaration of Human Rights – yet it has still failed to do so. “I believe that what was proposed was ideal. They have the draft for it.” However, “the Bill of Rights is not going to be a magic wand.” She adds: “There are other international legal obligations that governments have in terms of human rights.”

Julie-Anne asserts: “You can’t rely on a political culture of respect when one doesn’t actually exist. If we had this Bill of Rights it would allow our political parties to deal with issues, rather than negotiate them.” That, along with the proper application of the ministerial code of conduct, might avoid the periodic breakdowns of government here that have characterised our system since the restoration of devolution.

But it would be naïve to ignore the reality that the concept of rights are not always simple and objective. The discussions around single sex marriage and what might either be termed abortion or women’s reproductive rights illustrate that – and place Julie-Anne on a different side of the debate to much of unionism’s mainstream leadership.

S2 - Episode 13 - Colin Harvey Jul 13, 2020

A Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland is overdue and would protect the interests and concerns of all the population, insists Colin Harvey, professor of human rights at Queen’s University, Belfast. He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.

The Good Friday Agreement provided the expectation that there would be a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland that would safeguard citizens’ rights. And a committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly is, more than 20 years on, considering this. But what would a Bill of Rights achieve – and which ‘rights’ would be included?

“If you look at what’s driving politics on both parts of the island, it’s real concerns about healthcare and housing and basic social and economic rights,” says Colin. “There’s a real chance to make sure that socio-economic rights on the island are no longer second class rights in the future.”

Colin argues that as well as health and housing, there is also a human right to environmental protection, addressing climate change and climate justice. He insists that what he calls “basic social and economic rights” need legal protection. “In the future, health care is a human right that needs to be solidly underpinned by legal guarantees.”

But does this mean that there should be a legal right for everyone having a job? “I think it’s important to recognize socio-economic rights as human rights, including employment rights. But… there are often balancing exercises that go along with those human rights instruments – not all human rights are absolute.

“I think the starting point has to be better recognition in law of the basic human rights that people need to have. And human rights advocates, equality advocates, social justice advocates on this island – but actually in Europe and globally – need to do a much better job at winning that argument. That’s not to say that human rights protections will deliver a utopia. They won’t. They’re really a starting point.

“But we’ve all got to try and agree that these things are basic human rights that have to be reflected in law. For example, I still think the north needs a Bill of Rights.”

Human rights advocates feel let down by the lack of progress following the Good Friday Agreement. “The Agreement held out a clear promise that it wouldn’t just be a shared society, that it would be a shared and better society,” insists Colin. “And that would include a number of things, including better human rights protection.”

In 2008, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission – whose members included Colin – submitted recommendations to the British government on a Bill of Rights. Yet “we still haven’t had that Bill of Rights delivered”. “What we see at the moment is there’s an ad hoc assembly committee that’s meeting to renew and revisit that conversation. So it’s long overdue that we have a Bill of Rights here. But it’s time for people to join that conversation. A conversation focused on not just having shared institutions and relative stability here, but actually the creation of a better society, a more equal society.”

But Colin warns: “The Agreement is very clear that the Bill of Rights is to be delivered at Westminster by the Westminster government.” And the debate has now been affected by the Brexit decision and the “likely loss of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU”. “So there’s a real anxiety and worry that the UK is planning to go backwards in relation to rights, that there’ll be undercutting of those rights, particularly in those basic areas of equality, employment, socio-economic justice, that people are really concerned about here.”

Colin is determined, though, that rights should not perceived as only being applicable for one section of society, but instead are actually protecting all members of society. “Those rights will protect everyone here.”

He continues: “First of all, it gives people a secure recognition. These are not issues of discretion and when they’re actually basic human rights that people have and guarantees. And I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of that. Secondly, it’s hoped it will be used in practice. And I would underline that it will only make a difference to people’s lives if the Bill of Rights that we adopt is an ambitious Bill of Rights. It isn’t just a tweak to the Human Rights Act.

“It’s something that reflects an ambitious vision for this society, that’s used in practice – that people are able to access justice in an affordable way, that they can use these rights, that public authorities mainstream these protections and the work that they do in a preventative way, that the Executive and the Assembly takes these measures seriously in their work, so that we’re not always going to court to enforce rights.”

He adds: “I wouldn’t be offering a Bill of Rights or human rights protections as the answer to all the problems of this society and the problems that we face. They’re just the starting point.”

Next week’s podcast will be the second in a two-part consideration of the call for a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, featuring an interview with former Progressive Unionist Party councillor Julie-Anne Corr-Johnston.

S2 - Episode 12 - Roisin Marshall Jul 06, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

To follow

S2 - Episode 11 - Peter Osborne Jun 29, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Reconciliation above all

Reconciliation is the primary necessity facing Northern Ireland, believes Peter Osborne. Peter is a former chair of both the Community Relations Council and the Parades Commission. He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.

“I come from a perspective of looking at what reconciliation is about,” says Peter. He argues that to achieve reconciliation it is essential to correct the structures that create separation. This has led him to strongly argue for the integration of the education and housing systems. “You need to make the structural changes that created segregation and the conflict,” he says.

“We need to tackle the causes of the problem, not deal with the symptoms. The cause of the problem here is segregation. That leads to sectarianism and all of the other stuff that we see every day. There is a real need to make the structural change around education and around play.”

Many health specialists argue that the NHS in Northern Ireland has the wrong structures, with too many buildings, many of them old and inefficient. The Bengoa review of health services concluded that too much money is spent on buildings and not enough on services, requiring a significant reorganisation and reshaping of the service to correct. Peter has argued that in a similar way Northern Ireland’s education system needs its own Bengoa-type review and restructure, with the possibility of reducing overheads and improving outcomes.

That view is influenced by the Department for Education saying that there are around 60,000 surplus places in Northern Ireland schools – though this is a reduction of 35,000 places since 2006. However, some educationalists argue that there is no indication that financial savings are achieved from school mergers – with perhaps extra costs being generated by the construction of new school campuses.

Peter is clear, though, that having surplus school places is wrong. He says: “It feels as if it's a waste of money. Well, it is a waste of money….There are a number of arguments that are relevant - there's the economic arguments, the political arguments as well.”

Peter stresses that apart from the direct costs of school building and teacher duplication, there is also the issue that “tens or perhaps hundreds of millions of pounds” are spent a year in bringing children and society together in community cohesion projects that would be unnecessary if children were educated together. Moreover, if school mergers led to the vacation of some existing school buildings that land could be sold to generate capital receipts that could be re-invested.

There is controversy around shared education campuses – opposition on the one side from some that the specific identity of faith schools is lost, while criticism on the other from those who believe it is a dilution of what can be achieved from fully integrated schools. Peter believes that shared campuses are clearly preferable to segregated schools.

“A lot of good stuff is happening within shared education,” he says. “There is some stuff that is not good. My criterion is that there is a continuum of moving to a place where children and young people are educated together. If shared education helps us move along that continuum then fine.”

He adds: “I'm not saying one system is all that we need. I am in favour of integrated schools for children learning and developing together: that could be achieved by different models. I think that's a conversation we need to have. But I think from the ground up, parents and young people, when they're asked, very clearly say we would prefer everybody in the same classroom together. There is a demand for that to happen.

“That doesn't mean that the children, young people, don't get any religious education. Actually, the experience from the integrated sector is that there is a greater focus on different types of religious education. Both the Protestant and the Catholic churches like it when they're involved in it, because they see what each other is doing and there is a greater relationship between the churches.”

But are the politicians willing to do more? “I do see a change happening in the political side,” says Peter. However, even if there is a willingness to have more integrated schools and shared campuses, that shift does not extend to the point of merging the Stranmillis and St. Mary’s teacher training colleges. “To have two teacher training colleges when clearly we should only have one, with a cost of millions of pounds extra, is ridiculous,” Peter argues. “I do get a sense that there's an acknowledgement of that politically. And, there was a debate in the Assembly recently where politicians did say they wanted to see an independent review of education. In the context of New Decade, New Approach, that means a single education system.”

But, believes Peter, there is an equally pressing need to develop shared housing provision. “We need to be a lot more ambitious about public housing and about shared housing.” The target now set is the building of 1500 more social housing units over the next 10 years, compared to the 487 in the previous plan – which is less than 1% of total new housing stock. “And we need to defend the policy on shared housing we have, making sure there aren’t paramilitary flags going up.”

While the political system has resisted radical change to achieve a more integrated society, Peter believes that greater progress might be achieved if citizens’ assemblies were used, in the way that has happened in the Republic. “I think citizens’ assemblies and civic engagement more generally are something that we really need to put more resources, more thought into,” he says. Peter hopes that citizens’ assemblies might be used to assist reform of the education system, the environment and other social issues. There is, he says, “a real opportunity to use them to come up with some answers”.

S2 - Episode 10 - Denis Bradley Jun 22, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

‘Politicians will argue, they will fight over it and they will come up with reasons for not dealing with the past’

It was hoped that the Patten reforms would herald a new start for policing in Northern Ireland, but, argues Denis Bradley, the PSNI remains burdened with its legacy from the old RUC. Denis is a former vice-chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board and co-chair of the Consultative Group on the Past. He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.
“In the setting-up of the PSNI, the new service inherited, carried with it, the deeds of the RUC. That was done at the time to placate unionism, which is understandable, I wouldn’t have any great problem with that,” says Denis.
“The difficulty with it was that it was taking the past with it, in the sense that it had to deal with the past while being part of the conflict itself. That left it in a bit of a bind. That goes through right to the present day. It may have been better to not carry the deeds of the RUC with it, but we are where we are, as they say.”
Denis adds: “The other thing is that in the establishment of it, the RUC overhung the new policing service. So does the conflict, in the sense that neither did militant republicanism totally go away, with dissidents breaking off from the Provisional IRA. Their whole base was within nationalist working class areas and they kept their presence there, through things like the Omagh bomb and right up to the present day.
“While one of the most prominent people in the whole Provisional organisation, Martin McGuinness - and within the new political establishment - described them as ‘militarily pathetic’, they also carried a threat – and the main threat was against the new policing service, on the grounds that they claimed that it wasn’t a fully re-established, reconstituted, independent service.”
This created serious challenges for the PSNI, made worse, argues Denis, by the lack of any tradition or culture of organised policing in working class nationalist areas. Though, he stresses, these areas were lawful, they were not used to a uniformed police service being present. This combination of factors meant that “policing in these communities was not what it should have been”. That should have led to a heavy concentration of recruiting police officers from those communities, along with a strong commitment to community policing in those areas – but that did not happen, says Denis.
Yet, despite this, community satisfaction with policing in Northern Ireland is by international standards unusually high – at around 80%, which is comparable to that across Europe. “Certainly higher than in some other countries, such as America,” explains Denis.
The PSNI remains a difficult force to lead. Chief constables who had a background in the RUC have found it impossible to shake off their association with the past, while all but one of those who came from England have been accused of naivety in their understanding of the complications of Northern Ireland society. Denis believes that only by tackling the inherent problems that he described can these leadership challenges be overcome. “I don’t think it matters so much who is the chief constable, because he or she is only one person.”
Denis praises the PSNI for improving community relationships across much of Northern Ireland. “I think that they have worked reasonably hard, and partially successfully, integrating themselves into communities. I get good feedback at times.” Denis adds: “I don’t believe the middle class in any country has difficulty with policing…. Where you find problems in most countries is in working class communities.”
Structures of accountability should mean that the PSNI is challenged to improve policing in Northern Ireland’s working class areas, including nationalist areas. But instead, says Denis, the response is “if we go in and do what you are asking us to do, we will get ourselves killed”.
Policing anywhere works though a combination of trust and what might be termed ‘dispassionate engagement’, argues Denis. “If the community it is policing has more trust and respect in it than it has mistrust and disrespect - if the balance is 50, 60, 70% -then policing can tackle most things - they will take the community with it, in good times and in bad.
“If, on the other hand, it is 30, or 40, or 15 or 20% - a minority feeling of trust – then in good times or bad that community will not liaise with, will not communicate with, policing in ways that are positive and successful in policing terms. If you scale that up into situations where there is organised crime, where people use guns, use drugs, or are very ruthless and violent, then you have the clash - between whether the community has trust in the police enough as a humane body, but also as a professional body. Then that police force will be more powerful and more successful than the organised crime.
“Dublin is a perfect example of that. Where communities have been more frightened of the drug gangs than the police, with young people more attracted to crime gangs than to the police.” It then becomes necessary for the police to engage with communities to generate the respect necessary to defeat crime gangs.
While the PSNI are dealing with the legacy of the RUC, and the complaints of its operations as a partisan force, there is also the legacy of Troubles killings. With the UK government apparently committed to avoiding new prosecutions of soldiers, this has again become extremely contentious.
Denis is wary about moves to set up another committee looking at the past, given the work that he and Archbishop Lord Robin Eames were engaged in when co-chairing the Consultative Group on the Past, which contained just three people. “One of my fears around the Stormont House Agreement, which came about ten years after the Consultative Group on the Past, in its management of how to deal with the past has about 30, or 40, or 60 people involved, in the sense that each aspect has more and more people involved, including a very strong representation from our political parties.
“I have never been of the opinion that the political parties are capable of dealing with the past. They will argue, they will fight over it and they will come up with reasons for not dealing with things. But they will never deal with it. There will always be a stand-off.” The Consultative Group addressed this by concluding that the two governments – the UK and Ireland – would have to resolve the problems.
“The second thing in dealing with the past is to be incredibly sensitive towards the victims. But in dealing with victims you must never allow the victims to be the leaders around this. There will always be divisions. They have different narratives and different needs and different passions. So you can never allow the victims to be the leaders in this. And to some extent victims have been politicised.”
Those comments were made by Denis several weeks before the arguments emerged that are now holding up the payment of pensions to Troubles survivors. But the deadlock certainly seems to vindicate his observations.
Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

S2 - Episode 9 - Marissa McMahon Jun 15, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

‘There is something seriously and fundamentally wrong’ – Northern Ireland’s housing crisis

Although the shortage of housing was a major issue in the recent Irish general election, it is also a major challenge in Northern Ireland. For some reason, there is much less focus on this north of the border. PPR – the Participation and Practice of Rights – is keen to correct this, as its housing activist Marissa McMahon explained in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast.

It is important to consider the statistics when placing the housing crisis in context. As at March last year, there were nearly 38,000 applicants in Northern Ireland on the social housing waiting list, of which more than 26,000 were recognised as being in ‘housing stress’, while 12,512 households were accepted as statutorily homeless. With less than a thousand new social homes built in 2018/19, at that rate it would take more than a decade to house just those who are accepted as homeless. It is fair to talk of a housing crisis in Northern Ireland, which is getting worse.

What is more, housing stress is connected to broader social problems – it can trigger depression and can be a factor in suicide. It is also related to relationship breakdowns and a range of other social problems. “There are over 15,000 children, under 18s, living in housing stress in these six counties,” says Marissa. “That is an awful lot of children growing up in accommodation that is not suitable. It's overcrowded, in hostels, in single lets. Children have become institutionalised and don’t know any different. I don't believe that in the 21st Century, in one of the six richest nations, that there should be that many people, including children, living in housing stress. There's something seriously and fundamentally wrong.”

PPR is specifically targeting the site of the former Mackie’s textile factory in West Belfast, which they want used to build new social homes. “It’s a massive piece of publicly owned land in the highest area of need in Belfast. Within a few miles radius there are five homeless hostels, that includes women and children and single males. Not one of those people in those hostels has been consulted on whether they would like to see homes built on the Mackie's site. Instead people in government decided that homes weren’t needed. Yet there are plans for private developers to build homes, build apartments, on a site adjacent to Mackie’s. That doesn’t make any sense.”

Marissa is also concerned about the Tribeca development proposal in the centre of Belfast. The city’s councillors “didn’t consider what the young people, the children, the women in those hostels, their views, or what they needed in that area,” she argues. “They are in social need.”

Instead of the construction of large numbers of new social housing, there has been a growth in the private housing sector. According to analysis by the House of Commons library, Northern Ireland has become the only part of the UK where the private housing rental sector is larger than the social housing sector. In some instances, that private housing is of very poor quality. “There needs to be a total reform of the private housing sector,” says Marissa. “There needs to be much more consistent and stringent policies in place.”

She expresses concern at the conditions in private accommodation in which refugees fleeing violence in Syria, for example, have been placed. “They are not for purpose, at all,” says Marissa. She instances “extreme dampness”, which can be very difficult to resolve, even though the lets have been arranged by the Housing Executive. “First of all they shouldn’t have been placed in homes of that standard and they shouldn’t have to go through these loops to get the basics… We have so many families who have tried to set up homes in private rental homes because that is all they can access and they are told we want you out within a month. Where do they go?”

While most homeless households are not sleeping rough, there is also a problem in Northern Ireland of street homelessness. Marissa believes this is not being properly addressed, even during the Covid-19 pandemic. “In comparison with England, the emergency changes to our legislation have been quite minor. The minister for housing in England has formed a task force, has made it a duty for local councils to house homeless people in B&Bs and hotels. Here it is much more ad hoc.”

Marissa adds: “I have an example of that. This is a frontline worker, working as an interpreter for the NHS, who was basically sleeping rough, who was put into what was being deemed as a single let. Then I was told that this may cost up to £750 per month. She can't afford that. So while they've lifted the people off the street and put them into accommodation - which is absolutely fantastic to see – there is this worry about what happens afterwards. Is it going to be rolled back, back onto the street? Where do these people go?”

S2 - Episode 8 - Alan McBride Jun 08, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

‘My coping mechanism is talking, seeking peace and reconciliation’

Alan McBride’s personal journey is well known, but remarkable nonetheless. It was in 1993 that his wife Sharon and her father Desmond Frizzell were killed in an IRA bomb attack on the family fish shop in Belfast’s Shankill Road. But with immense dignity, Alan has since dedicated his life to reconciliation and progress, as well as campaigning on behalf of victims. He is the latest interviewee in the Holywell Trust Forward Together podcasts.

Alan admits that initially after Sharon died he had to deal with a range of emotions attached to bereavement – guilt, anger, profound sadness and emptiness. But then “I started getting involved, speaking out and getting involved in rallies with an organization called Families Against Intimidation and Terror, who highlighted human rights abuses. They fulfilled a need I had to speak out and to challenge paramilitaries and those that supported them”.

He adds: “I was trying to make sense of everything that was going on.” A lot of his anger was directed against Gerry Adams, who helped carry the body of the dead Shankill Road bomber, Thomas Begley. But his personal story included his father having been a member of the UDA.

“I had this breakthrough moment when I started to think about my own upbringing, and started to think about how many Catholics I knew, the things I had got involved in as a kid – the riots, fires, 12th July celebrations, etc. And I believed the society we had here was abnormal – it was very different from any other part of the United Kingdom. The society itself produced some of the types of things that led to what the people who killed my wife did.

“It wasn’t that I had forgiven them, or gone soft on them, but I sort of understood that if they had grown up in any other part of the United Kingdom they probably wouldn’t have done the things they did. So when I’m thinking about peace and reconciliation and I’m thinking of pointing the finger – the net has to be cast much wider than just those who planted bombs and shot and killed people. The churches are involved. As a young boy I went to church and heard some very sectarian sermons from the pulpit…. I also remember politicians who didn’t give us any sort of leadership. If anything they were compounding our sense of sectarianism.

“To be honest that hasn’t really changed that much in recent times. One of the things I hope that comes out of this coronavirus is that we have a kinder more humane society. The bullshit politics we have had in this country for far too long.”

He adds: “It was when I started to think like that I began to not feel the need to campaign against people like Gerry Adams and paramilitaries and instead involve myself in peace building and tried to engage in dialogue with people I had previously been opposed to and tried to build an understanding with them of where I am coming from.

“These days I see my role as someone who is involved in peace building, advocates a peaceful life, a peaceful society. My criticism is not only for those who were involved in violence to achieve a political end, but also for those who gave them cover. I include in that, the DUP, the Ulster Unionists, not just Sinn Fein, anybody who had any tacit support for paramilitaries – advocating for them, or turning a blind eye as was quite often the case.”

In today’s society, one of the issues we still struggle with is whether all those who died should be treated equally, whether there should be ‘a hierarchy of victims’. “What we have to consider is the families who are left behind,” says Alan. “I just see them as families whose relatives lost their lives in this conflict. But I will say this – I will always challenge the person who tries to put my wife on the same page, in terms of her guilt or her innocence, with [the bombers] Sean Kelly or Thomas Begley. They murdered my wife. They went out that day to commit murder. My wife wasn’t the intended victim – she was just expendable, collateral damage.

“So I won’t put them on the same page. But their families? Absolutely. I will put them on the same page. I suffer just as much as the Kelly family suffers, or the Begley family suffers.” But he recognises there are people who regard them as soldiers in a war. “It’s obviously not an opinion I share… It is not helpful to me at all to say we are all victims in the same way.”

But the trauma today is not restricted to the families who mourn dead relatives. There is also the trauma of people left with profound injuries and disabilities because of events – and the trauma that passes down generations and can be manifested through addictions. It can be “the wider family circle”, stresses Alan.

He is open that his coping mechanism is talking, campaigning, challenging others and seeking peace and reconciliation. “Yet there are others who cope in different ways.” Alan admits that his journey to seek reconciliation was traumatic for his relatives, especially for his mother-in-law. “We have coped in very different ways. And the way I coped had an impact on her.”

Alan adds: “It’s ok not to talk about it, if that’s you and that’s your thing. But if you are going to bed at night and that is the thing stopping you going to sleep, causing you recurring nightmares, then you probably do need at some stage to get that out, to talk about it, get it out into the open.”

S2 - Episode 7 - Daniel Holder Jun 01, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

What is justice? The answer might be obvious, but in past Forward Together podcast interviews it has been noticeable that the responses to that question have been inconsistent. While parts of political unionism seem focused on the judicial process for acts going back to the Troubles, the response by some in republicanism has been that the core of justice is about creating a fair society today.

Daniel Holder, deputy director of the Committee on the Administration of Justice, tells the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast that it is important to use the objective and settled international definitions of justice and human rights, applying these on a consistent and fair basis.

Objectivity is essential, argues Daniel. “That's the whole point of human rights law. It isn't designed for here, obviously, it is designed for everywhere. To have an objective framework, that everyone is equal before the law. National or regional governments have to reach certain standards so that they are actually objective and fair. This isn’t a question of different identities having different interpretations. It is a question of abuse of power in the past, with laws that weren’t fair and weren’t applied equally.”

He adds: “Human rights are things that are agreed in international treaties at the level of the United Nations and the Council of Europe. They are matters of international law. We're talking about things like civil and political rights, freedom against torture, right to a fair trial. You're talking about socio-economic rights, like rights to health and housing and work. That is the framework within which we operate, because we think it broadly provides solutions and a decision-making framework.”

Daniel continues: “You can't make human rights up…. When the smoking ban came in way back, people were sort of going, well, what about my right to smoke? You don't actually have a right to smoke! You've just made that up.”

The question then is how to apply those principles in the context of the legacy of the Troubles. “There are dozens of international human rights standards that set out to develop a body of law,” Daniel points out. These provide a framework for dealing with legacy alongside truth, “but also very importantly, guarantees of non-recurrence.” He suggests we “would be better-off calling ourselves a society emerging from conflict”, rather than a “post-conflict society”.

Daniel asserts that the Troubles were “a conflict…. fuelled by patterns of human rights violations. We are in a position to develop structures to stop them recurring and stop ourselves being trapped in a cycle of conflict.”

The most recent work of significance by the CAJ was a report, co-authored by Daniel, which examines the actions of the British government, which seems to be leading to the avoidance of prosecutions of soldiers. Daniel argues that this is a breach of the Stormont House Agreement. He believes that the UK government has committed a u-turn, not just on that, but also on what was in the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which set out the principle of an independent investigations unit to examine offences committed during the Troubles.

Daniel suggests that the terminology used by the British government is itself a breach of the principles of the separation of powers, between the executive and judiciary. “I mean, [it is] a preposterous suggestion… [of] vexatious prosecutions…. [It] is the executive branch of government, really, undermining its own criminal justice system by suggesting that somehow its own Director of Public Prosecutions is engaged in a sort of false or mischievous prosecutions of members of the military”.

The CAJ was established during the Troubles as a human rights body, but its role was pushed in a different direction as a result of Brexit and how it affects the rights of people in Northern Ireland. “Brexit was something that happened and caused us to start to re-orientate work considerably on the back of the referendum,” says Daniel. It was particularly concerned about protecting the rights of migrant workers living in Northern Ireland. But it also acted with regard to differences between the rights of people in Northern Ireland who had either British or Irish citizenship.

S2 - Episode 6 - Deirdre Heenan May 25, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

“Most people believe social care should be free, but there's a lot of confusion out there”

Social care must be reformed. If it wasn’t clear before the Covid-19 pandemic, it has become tragically obvious over recent weeks. So this is an opportune time to hear in the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast from Deirdre Heenan, professor of social policy at Ulster University and joint author nine years ago of a major study into Northern Ireland’s health and social care system.

“The vast majority of people accept and want the NHS to be free at the point of delivery,” argues Deirdre. “Many are happy to pay increased taxation, or feel that the taxation system needs to be changed so that we can adequately fund the system - and have transfers within the system to support those less able to pay.

“Most people also believe that social care should be free, but there's a lot of confusion out there… We know that health care is free at the point of delivery. We're just not really sure about social care.”

Without adequate funding “we have a system that's not fit for purpose,” says Deirdre. “We really need to think about how the system can be completely transformed and what principles will underpin that.”

There is also unhappiness, argues Deirdre, about the lack of transparency in the system and in how resources are allocated between the differing demands across the health and social care system. “It seems to me that much of the resource distribution happens at a high level: it happens at a central level. We have this commissioning through the health and social care board. It's just not clear how decisions are made, how you can appeal decisions, and then how families can make their decisions around who's going to do what. What level of additional care will we need? What level of care will we need to buy in? Because it isn't clear who's going to get what for how long.”

Much of this comes down to the lack of clarity about whether social care should be regarded as a public or a private service – or, if a mix of both, what the criteria should be for support from the public purse. “Most people believe that the NHS should be a universal service free at point of delivery. They're slightly more confused about the issue of social care,” observes Deirdre.

Too often, social care is overlooked in terms of political priorities, leading to it being categorised as the ‘Cinderella’ service. Much of the sector has been privatised in recent years, with a parallel process of pay cuts. “If we are serious about wanting people to go into social care, to give social care prestige, to have career progression, we have to think about the level of professionalization,” Deirdre stresses.

All these pressures have come to a head during the Covid-19 pandemic and are much more deep-seated than the lack of personal protection equipment, which has put workers’, as well as residents’, lives at risk. There is also the parallel challenge of an aging population, more people living longer with serious disabilities and the new complication that many survivors of Covid-19 may themselves be left with new life-threatening problems that need ongoing care and support.

So how will social care be funded in the future? Should people’s lifetime assets be used for later years’ care? Should families contribute from their collective assets? Should a wealth tax be imposed? Should people be expected to contribute in advance through a mandatory social care insurance system? “People struggle with issues around fairness and equality when those sorts of examples are put before them,” says Deirdre. “So I think we have got to have that conversation to say this is how much you will get from the state regardless of your income.”

She adds: “What we do know now is that it's this mix between the private, the formal, the informal and the public sector. And unless we discuss it, what we're going to end up with is the worst of all worlds. I think now is the time to have the honest discussion about how we fund this in the future. The very worst thing is people sitting around worrying about what's going to happen to them, or indeed what's going to happen to their loved ones.”

A citizens’ assembly considered these challenges in the context of Northern Ireland. “I thought the idea was good,” comments Deirdre. “But to be honest, I think those debates around social care need to be led by experts. You need to have people who are at the forefront of policymaking. You need to have the organizations that are advocating for older people. And whilst the principles may have been right, I think you need to have the right voices there who understand that you cannot just wish for motherhood and apple pie… I just think that a lot of people here are talking about social care, are well-meaning, but may not be that well informed about what the realities of the system are.”

S2 - Episode 5 - Jim Dornan May 18, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

“Epidemiologically, we're all one Ireland”

It is clear that health services in both Northern Ireland and the Republic will need to be reformed as our society recovers from Covid-19. They need to be more resilient and flexible to cope with both underlying existing demand and the capacity to cope with the current and possible future pandemics. Reform was already planned in both jurisdictions – the Bengoa plan in the north and Sláintecare in the south.

But could reform be even more effective – in terms of cost-effectiveness, efficiencies and quality of outcomes – if there was more cross-border integration of health services? Could there even be a merger cross-border single healthcare system, irrespective of the question of Irish unity? This was the theme of the latest Holywell Trust Forward Together podcast, with Professor Jim Dornan. Jim is a former clinical director and head of fetal medicine in the Royal Maternity Belfast Trust. He was also senior vice president of the Royal College, running its international office.

Jim played a key role in the development of cross-border healthcare provision in recent years, specifically the arrangements for children’s heart surgery in Dublin. “It seemed so very obvious,” he says. “I was around at the beginning of the very successful paediatric services for Ireland. I'm reassured by many others that that example has been followed in other areas, such as perinatal and mental health. I believe there are quite a few ideas bubbling around.”

The benefits of these arrangements have been improved health outcomes for children, reducing the risks for extremely ill patients undergoing difficult travel and also reducing the stress on parents, who otherwise would have had to travel or stay with their children in Britain after surgery.

In addition, specialist consultants improve their skills if they do lots of similar cases. “You don't want somebody not having enough cases so they might lose their experience,” says Jim. “But you don’t want to be flooded by having too many. Ireland is Goldilocks sized – not too big and not too small for its own health service. With a joint population of six million, that's about right.”

It is obvious that this is a moment to consider the future structure of healthcare across the island of Ireland. Jim says: “It was well put by somebody who said that epidemiologically we're all one Ireland, no matter what borders are there.”

Jim explains: “Both sides of the border, big decisions have to be made as to how much taxpayer money should be spent on health. It's really down to that at the end of the day. America has a wonderful health service for everybody except the twenty seven and a half million who don’t have health insurance. They use about 18% of their gross national product on health. Britain uses just under 10% of its gross national product for health. And the Republic, somewhere around about 7%.

“So it's a very simple thing - people must vote in politicians who are willing to put what the people have decided should be put into health going forward. The health service is a very hungry animal. People working in it on both sides of the border are doing their best. Medicine will always not be two-tiered, but a multi-tiered system - that's just a fact of life. But everybody must have access to life-saving medicines that are evidence-based and that we know work.”

He adds: “Personally, I can see no reason why both governments should not now try to look at where are the best places to integrate health. We don't have to wait for a political decision. For example, it is so obvious with paediatric surgery that having one successful unit is better than having two failing units…. There is no great clashing of cultures for us all to work together.”

Jim continues: “We're talking about efficiency. I think everybody in Ireland wants to have a health service that meets the needs of everyone, free at point of delivery based on need, which is the basis of the National Health Service. In fairness, that's exactly what the public side of the health service in the Republic is based on as well…. But you've got to be realistic. It's going to be more than one tier. It's idealistic to think of a one size fits all health system. There's no country in the world that does that.”

But moving towards more evidence-based policy-making with regard to the structure of health provision, means that arrangements need a level of flexibility and near constant change and reform. As new evidence emerges, as new treatments are proven to be effective, so health care delivery has to respond. This is uncomfortable for the health service, but essential for its future. It both permanent revolution and evolution, concedes Jim, who stresses that “everything has to be evidence-based”.

Jim has also been a strong advocate for reconsidering the constitutional position of Northern Ireland. “I 100% think that at some time in the next five years the border is going to have to be addressed. But I honestly think that it cannot and should not be addressed until we have all the answers on various options on major issues, like health, education, economics, culture. I feel that is the best way forward. Instead of just going narrowly into should we get rid of the border. With what is happening in Scotland and in people’s mind, we should be looking at the status quo, an independent Ulster, the union of Ireland, the position of Scotland, could we have a new federated Celtic islands situation? But let’s have an awful lot of facts…. This is where the universities can step forward.”

S2 - Episode 4 - Suzanne Rodgers May 11, 2020

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

“Journalists have always had to have integrity”

The media are at a crossroads, with fears over the future of some of Northern Ireland’s best known newspapers. Existing trends favouring social media over print newspapers have been accelerated by the Covid-19 crisis, with additional financial pressures from a collapse in advertising revenues.

This is an appropriate moment to reflect on the future of the media and on ethical responsibilities on journalists working in a post-conflict society. The latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust features an interview with Suzanne Rodgers, a media commentator who is media studies lecturer at the North West Regional College.

“New types of newspapers are coming up,” she says, some of which have a more open minded view of society, less connected to traditional social and political divisions. “And of course bloggers, podcasts are becoming very popular. People are finding they have a whole range of other areas where they can access their news and information and also contribute to it as well.

”We’re now talking about two-way conversations, whereas in the past, certainly when I started my career in journalism, journalists delivered the news, delivered the information to people and people absorbed it. Now we're having this two-way conversation. You're finding even in the BBC where people are doing news programmes, even traffic reports, they're asking people to come back and give their opinion, what’s happening where you are.”

But, Suzanne adds: “On the other side, we still have the very traditional news outlets. There hasn’t been a massive change since the deepest, darkest days of the Troubles. You have small places like Limavady, Strabane, Portadown, having two newspapers, because they are serving two very different constituencies: one nationalist, the other unionist. And there hasn’t been a huge change in that – which is strange, because I expected that.”

There have been limited changes in reading habits in recent years, with Sam McBride, the political editor of the News Letter, reporting that his newspaper sold out in nationalist areas because of his coverage of the RHI scandal. And some columnists write for outlets on both sides of the community divide.

“I suppose,” says Suzanne, “one of the things that has happened is that there are some people who have a social media presence and have lost their anonymity. They have become like a trusted person sitting at your kitchen table. I know from the students I teach, they would follow journalists sometimes, rather than the outlets.

“We have always been news hungry in this part of the world and people do look, even to be annoyed, to read someone like Newton Emerson, Alex Kane or Brian Feeney, because they are provocative. Maybe that’s a change that has happened. People feel more able to reach out and look at the other side and consider the other point of view.

“By and large people are now looking for online news…. The only paper I was aware of that was able to monetise that was the Donegal Daily”. It benefited from emigrants to Australia, Canada and America wanting to keep up with local news, “but very few others managed to do that.” Now, though, an increasing number of newspapers see their futures as being more online than in print.

But has the purpose of the media changed? “The role of the media has always been to stand to one side and to shine a light in dark corners,” insists Suzanne. “That's what we all like to say. Of course, commercialisation and the commercial reality is that newspapers and media have to sell advertising space.”

One of the improvements to the media scene is the emergence of fact checking organisations, verifying truth both for consumers and reporters. “Some newspapers, some news organisations, have furloughed staff, so the less staff the less chance you have of fact checking,” Suzanne explains. “But we do have a number of organisations, like FactCheckNI, that do really good work, explaining what some of the myths are: they are there as a resource.

“The Ethical PRISM Network is working with different fact check organisations, to set up multiple tools, free online training and resource hubs, to help journalists check and cross check their facts. But the old rule of journalism still applies. You don't put something out as a fact unless you have got more than one source for it. And unless you've got reliable sources for it.”

One of the big questions is whether journalists have specific responsibilities operating in a post-conflict society. Do we have a responsibility to help society improve, to reduce division, or at least to avoid making divisions worse?

“Journalists have always had to have integrity,” says Suzanne. “Integrity is key. We can't say publish and be damned. You have to stop and think, what's the context here? Am I adding anything here to wider knowledge or discourse, or is this just a sensational headline?... For journalists, that's part of the job they are always weighing up. What are the consequences of this? Does it add more than it takes away? What's my role here?

“In a post-conflict situation, I think maybe less so. It was more so while the Troubles were being reported. Hume-Adams, for instance, a lot of people knew that was happening, but people decided to give it a bit of space. In a post-conflict society, journalists can perhaps press the pedal a bit harder.”

So if we accept there are stories that should be ignored because reporting them would spark violence or other community harm, are there other stories that should be covered because they will do good, that might be termed ‘ethical journalism’?

“Yes,” says Suzanne. “I think journalists do have that responsibility, because they have a unique power to disseminate information, to reach out and ask questions, with access to people that people on the street don’t have.

“Maybe that's where the real ethical responsibility lies. Not just how you report the stories that come your way, that you come across, or that you find, but also actually going in search of those stories that do shed a more positive light… I think it is incumbent on journalists to go and look for those stories.”

This latest podcast in the second Forward Together series is available here on the website of Holywell Trust, a peace and reconciliation charity, and is financed by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme

S2 - Episode 3 - John Fitzgerald May 04, 2020

John FitzGerald Podcast Interview

John FitzGerald is one of Ireland’s most respected and influential economists –formerly research professor at the Economic and Social Research Institute and currently chair of the group advising the Irish government on climate policy. He is a strong critic of Northern Ireland’s policies on education and skills training, arguing that these are core factors in the weakness of the northern economy.

He is the latest interviewee in the Holywell Trust’s Forward Together podcast series.

“In terms of productivity, Northern Ireland is at the bottom of the scale,” he says. “That reflects the fact that the educational attainment of the population in Northern Ireland is the lowest for any region in these islands.

“Ireland, London and Scotland are at the top. Northern Ireland is at the bottom. Measuring both in terms of early school leavers, who don’t complete high school, and the proportion of the population who have third level qualifications. Northern Ireland is at the bottom on both of those measures. That helps to explain why productivity performance is so poor.”

Moreover, the proportion of young adults who have third level qualifications is a major factor in determining the location of foreign direct investment, says John. Between a quarter and a third of Northern Ireland's undergraduates leave to study in Britain and two thirds of those do not return.

The contrast with the Republic is significant. A larger proportion of school leavers go to university, and while “quite a high proportion of them, 25 to 40 percent, would then go abroad for whatever reason, but they're homing pigeons and they come back,” says John. “It looks as if the pattern is that you return to where you did your third level of qualifications. Even if you're from Northern Ireland, if you do your undergraduate degree in Britain, you don't come back.”

Moreover, a significant number of those people who do graduate in Northern Ireland go into the public sector. “The public sector is much bigger in Northern Ireland than it would be in most other parts of the United Kingdom,” says John. “That reflects the fact that in the crisis years between 1970 and 2000, and in particular in the 70s when employment collapsed because of the Troubles, it was ramped up in the public sector. And really, the public sector still dominates.”

Another core problem of the Northern Irish economy is the shortage of relevant vocational skills. “In the Republic, one of the success stories of the last 30, 40 years was the institutes of technology.” These, argues John, have been a foundation for some of the key industrial growth areas, such as health care devices and pharmaceuticals.

The contrast with Northern Ireland is substantial and linked to the influence of academic selection to the structure of northern society. Selection at 11 tends to separate pupils at a young age, with one route being academic and the other vocational. Research, says John, “shows that segregation by educational attainment in grammar schools and secondary schools is very damaging to kids, in particular from disadvantaged backgrounds.”

He adds: “It seems to be an urban working class problem, which has been overcome in the Republic, but it's really damaging in Northern Ireland. And it goes back to the selection by schools. The research done in the Republic shows that mixed ability teaching is really important... The research showed streaming doesn't improve the prospects of good bright kids, but seriously impacts on the prospects of kids in the lower half of the distribution of attainment.”

The result is demotivating for those pupils not doing well, while “the bulk of kids from a middle class background get into grammar school. So you're segregating, if you like, on a class basis as well.”

Alongside education and skills, the other basis for necessary reform is infrastructure investment, argues John. “The evidence is that Northern Ireland is an exception in the investment in physical capital compared to the Republic, compared to the United Kingdom as a whole, compared to Scotland. The transfers from London have been used to provide support income through employment, through welfare or good public services, rather than holding back some of that and investing in infrastructure, which would support a productive and active business economy.”

But the strains on infrastructure have been accentuated by urban and rural planning policy. “Belfast has decentralized and partly because of the Troubles, it has not grown. There has been much more dispersed population growth. Whereas in the Republic and in Britain, the problem is that there’s been overconcentration in London, overconcentration in Dublin. But cities across Europe are successful.” The “failure to develop Belfast” backed by good public transport has led to a dispersed population. “So I think there's a need for a change in approach and investing in infrastructure.”

But John concedes: “It's an issue which we face in the Republic as well: Irish people, north and south, would like to live in rural areas and work in urban areas. That's totally unsustainable. And the dynamic of a dense city works.... That is the future.”

S2 - Episode 2 - Siobhan O'Neill Apr 27, 2020

Northern Ireland's mental health crisis

Mental health is a global challenge, but poor mental health is at crisis levels in Northern Ireland. That crisis is in part an ongoing impact from the Troubles, Siobhan O’Neill, professor of mental health science at Ulster University, says in the latest Holywell Trust podcast.

“We're seeing a rise in mental health problems in the Western world,” says Siobhan. “We know that around one in four or one in five people in Europe and the West have a mental health problem. In Northern Ireland, that's somewhat higher. Our research showed that in 2008, around 39% of the population had met the criteria for a mental illness at some point in their lifespan.”

She continues: “We can see that the trauma of the Troubles seems to have had an impact on the population that has led to that differential compared to other places.”

What is more, the most deprived areas were both the setting for much of the worst of the Troubles and of mental ill health in our society today. This has particularly been felt in the poorest parts of Belfast and Derry. “People who live there were more likely to be exposed to trauma related to the Troubles. Other places were affected too, obviously, but I think there's the double whammy of poverty and deprivation and those same urban areas that saw the worst of the violence of the Troubles. So you have those things working together.”

Perhaps counter-intuitively, there was a low level of suicide during the Troubles, but a high level today. Siobhan explains: “We saw the rates of suicide were much lower during the period of the Troubles. One of the reasons for that is that people who are most marginalised and vulnerable were involved in their struggle. And that gave them a reason for living. It gave meaning, provided men that sense of purpose, that keeps us all going. But unfortunately, after the end of the Troubles there has been a weighing-up of the result of all of us suffering, as a result of what happened. And we see that the rates of suicide increase after that.”

There is another factor, says Siobhan, which is that key life events many years later may stimulate post traumatic stress, triggering reflection on past events that individuals tried to ignore at the time. That later point may be retirement from work, or moving home as part of that retirement – with the result that the trauma is deeply felt many years after a serious event. “PTSD can emerge years after the traumatic event,” says Siobhan.

This means that although the Good Friday Agreement is now more than 20 years old, for many people the Troubles is not in the past. “This is a really important point,” says Siobhan. “The trauma of the Troubles is there. It's part of us. It's part of who we are.”

Another layer to this problem is that many people coped with traumatic events through addiction. “The Troubles was a source of stress that was uncontrollable.... you need to do something to try and get rid of that terrible, terrible feeling. A lot of people turned to drugs and alcohol, and alcohol particularly is easily available. And culturally, it's what we do to cope with things, to celebrate. So that was a way that people learnt how to manage their stress.

“We know that alcohol causes depression over time. And it causes addiction. People get addicted to alcohol or drugs. The harm that has been caused as a result is measureable across Northern Ireland: it causes harm to families and children when parents are using substances to cope with stress. This is part of what we talk about as intergenerational traumas. Whenever parents inadvertently create adversities for their children because of how they are coping with the trauma that they've experienced. And alcohol is a huge, huge part of that.”

There are also ways that individuals can protect their physical and mental health during this crisis. “The first thing to do is structure your day and make a plan for what you're going to do. That structure should include exercise, or getting outside, or moving your body in some way: that's really important and it's really important for your mental health. Exercise is a natural anti-depressant. It gets rid of all those unpleasant chemicals that are associated with anxiety...The other thing we must do everyday is connect with people in some way, shape or form. Ideally, it would be visually, using a screen if we can.”

Siobhan adds in a positive vein: “There is also some evidence of that sense of connectedness that people are experiencing, the feeling that we are in this together... that could be something that protects us.”

The internet provides both a way of bringing us together, but also of providing false messages, so must be used with care. “Social media is useful because it can help you connect with people here who are like you,” says Siobhan. “You get a sense that there's a whole community out there. So even if you're physically alone, that you're part of something bigger. So it's really about ensuring that your timeline of your preferred social media platform is not full of negative stories.”

Once we emerge from this crisis we need to concentrate on strengthening societies in ways that assist from the very earliest age. We need to have what Siobhan refers to as “a multi-layered approach, a multi-level approach,” promoting good mental health. That needs to begin in the early years of childhood, with support for parents. “Our funding for early years, for health visiting, is absolutely crucial to this effort,” she says. “And then in the education system, we need to help kids with coping and resilience... We can help children identify their emotional responses and help them work out their own ways of addressing that at an early stage. And that would limit down the numbers that will be coming through to the mental health services. We also need to be doing a lot more screening.... early intervention really is the key.”

The latest podcast in the second Forward Together series is available on the website of Holywell Trust, a peace and reconciliation charity, and is financed by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

Disclaimer - 'This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.’

S2 - Episode 1 - Jess Sargeant Apr 20, 2020

Reforming government in Northern Ireland

Government in Northern Ireland needs reform, but the fact that it works at all is actually impressive given the past, says Jess Sargeant of the Institute for Government, a London-based think-tank. She was speaking in the first of a new series of podcasts produced by the Holywell Trust, which feature opinions from policy experts who consider some of Northern Ireland’s biggest challenges.

The Institute for Government published a review of Northern Ireland’s system of government at the end of last year, which considered how the civil service had coped with a three year period in which there was no political leadership. She concludes that the vacuum led to the emergence of a stronger civil society, with business organisations, human rights bodies and charities developing a stronger voice – which they continue to exercise, even after the Executive has resumed work.

However, while it is positive that the Northern Ireland Civil Service was able to function and run the system without an Executive, the Renewable Heat Incentive failings illustrated the weaknesses in the administration. It needs to be acknowledged that unlike the situation in Scotland and Wales, the Northern Ireland Civil Service is a separate entity from the British civil service. And that has had implications about limiting skills development in Northern Ireland administration, which showed through from the inquiry into RHI.

Jess makes the point that the “power sharing arrangements are almost completely unique”, which makes bold decision-making “very difficult”. “The fact that it works at all, is quite remarkable... we shouldn't forget that.” But that does not deflect from the need to introduce reforms that enable better collective decision making. Building relationships of trust between representatives of parties that would prefer not to be working together is very challenging, but could benefit from good personal relationships and the development of mutual trust at a personal level.

Another weakness of the current system of government is the lack of evidence based policy-making and the absence of independent expertise into decision making. That has been partially addressed by the formation of a new think-tank, Pivotal, but the process could be further improved, says Jess, if think-tanks based in GB engaged more with Northern Ireland. It would be helpful if the devolved governments could learn from each other in terms of policy development and implementation.

One difference between Stormont and Westminster is the lack of expert support for Assembly committees, in contrast to select committees in Parliament. With Northern Ireland government departments servicing the committees at Stormont there is a limitation to their ability to gather the expertise needed to challenge the departments. That is exacerbated by the political reality that with five parties within the Executive, a robust scrutiny function becomes more difficult when the committees are largely comprised from those same five parties.

“There's a tendency to see the Northern Ireland Assembly as an extension of the Executive, as opposed to a check on it,” argues Jess. “And so there's a lot of work that needs to be done to allow the Assembly to develop its own individual identity.” There needs to be what Jess calls a “buttressing of the institutions” in Northern Ireland.

One opportunity for systemic improvement comes from the example of the Republic, where citizens’ assemblies have enabled politicians to gain external cover in addressing difficult political decisions. That process could be adopted in Northern Ireland to make progress on challenging issues, such as healthcare reform, where the Bengoa reform proposals have partially stalled. Citizens’ assemblies, though, are “not a panacea”, Jess stresses. Politicians still need to work hard to engage the wider public to assist them in understanding why difficult decisions need to be taken. It can, though, help with building public trust.

Another reform that might be considered, suggests Jess, is returning some powers to local government. She points that political power is unusually centralised in Northern Ireland.

The interview with Jess Sargeant is the first of 18 new podcasts produced by the Holywell Trust, a peace and reconciliation charity, financed by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme.

This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

Review 4 - Constitutional Question Oct 21, 2019

FULL EPISODE NOTES

Considering the future of Northern Ireland

A panel considered how to engage in a friendly and unthreatening conversation about the future constitutional arrangements for Northern Ireland. This was held as part of a concluding reflection on the Holywell Trust’s series of 35 Forward Together podcast interviews.

The panel comprised author Julieann Campbell, the commentator Denis Bradley (who was co-chair of the Consultative Group on the Past and former deputy chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board) and Maureen Hetherington of the Junction, plus myself as the person who conducted interviews for the podcasts.

This podcast also includes contributions from audience members Eamonn Deane, chair of the Holywell Trust, and Declan McGonagle, a former director of the Irish Museum of Modern Art in Dublin.

We began by listening to extracts from earlier podcasts. Former leader of the Ulster Unionist Party Mike Nesbitt called for unionism to recognise that the environment is changing: the demographics are changing, there is a rise in English and Scottish nationalism and the attitude of the DUP is causing the political environment to change.

Irish language activist Linda Ervine urged a new discussion to take place, considering a new Ireland within a close-knit British Isles, involving a closer link between Ireland and England.

Victims campaigner Alan McBride argued this is not the right time to have a discussion about Irish unity, but that the time might come in the next few years, depending on the impact of Brexit – a bad Brexit for Northern Ireland while the Irish Republic prospered through its membership of the EU could create the conditions for that discussion.

Peter Sheridan – chief executive of Co-operation Ireland and former assistant chief constable of the PSNI – said that this is the wrong time for a debate on unity, which might need to wait for five or 10 years. What is required is for everyone to be told what Irish unity would look like, not to just have a yes or no vote with inadequate information.

In his earlier podcast interview Denis Bradley said that one of the things that has changed is that the Europeans have accepted that they have a key role in determining the future of Northern Ireland, for cross-border relationships and the constitutional settlement.

Solicitor and former president of the Londonderry Chamber of Commerce Philip Gilliland described Brexit as “a gift”, because it allows Protestants for the first time to discuss the constitutional settlement without it being a heresy. Brexit has demonstrated that the British don’t know or care about Northern Ireland. “It has allowed all of us to consider why we were unionists in the first place.”

In the panel debate Denis said that everything at a constitutional level has now changed. He predicted there will be another referendum on Scottish independence. “And of course we can consider Ireland re-joining the Commonwealth.” He added that it is no longer just about Protestants and Catholics, or just north and south, but about relationships across all of these islands. Brexit will force us to have a mature debate.

Denis added: “I don’t think a border poll should happen any time soon, but it shouldn’t be off the table.” A border poll being up for discussion is the only way to get unionists to discuss the future, he suggested.

In my contribution I raised doubts as to whether republicans are correct in suggesting that a unity poll would necessarily generate a majority in favour in the south, especially given the weak state of the northern economy. I argued that it is in the interests of both unionists and republicans for Northern Ireland to be an efficient and functional society – for unionists to continue to receive the financial and political support of English nationalists and for republicans to obtain the votes for unity in a referendum of people in the Republic.

Maureen suggested that much of the population in the south is not deeply committed to reunification, nor do they have much understanding of the north. Her main concern is the recovery of truth. She added that Brexit is “a brilliant opportunity” to move beyond tribal politics. We need to have an informed choice over the future, not a simple yes or no vote.

Julieann expressed the view that it is wonderful that the current situation provoked by Brexit is seen as an opportunity, not just as a negative.

Declan McGonagle argued that it is dangerous to consider only the economics of unity – we need to deal with the bigotry and divisions within our society. Eamonn Deane added that we should consider the current situation as an opportunity to create a better society.

This is the very last Forward Together podcast. A complete collection of the transcribed and edited interviews will be published in the early part of next year.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Review 3 - Addressing The Past Oct 14, 2019

FULL EPISODE NOTES

Dealing with the past

A discussion on how to deal with the past was held as part of a concluding reflection on the Holywell Trust’s series of Forward Together podcasts. The panel was author Julieann Campbell, the commentator Denis Bradley (who was co-chair of the Consultative Group on the Past and former deputy chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board) and Maureen Hetherington of the Junction, plus Paul Gosling who conducted the interviews for the 35 podcasts.

This podcast also includes a contribution from audience member Declan McGonagle, a former director of the Irish Museum of Modern Art in Dublin.

We began by listening to highlights from the recordings. Senator Frances Black emphasised that our communities are united in pain from the violence of the past and that the trauma is passing through the generations.

Mark Durkan, a former deputy first minister of Northern Ireland, argued that we can’t simply draw a line under the past, but we mustn’t endlessly pore over the past, nor glibly pass over the past. And we must recognise that some of the issues that are central to our understanding of the past – including distrust, accountability, evasion – affect attitudes and perceptions that continue today. The Eames-Bradley report had made clear that there could not be a ‘one size fits all’ approach to legacy issues.

Victims campaigner Alan McBride said he favoured Eames-Bradley as the best blueprint for dealing with legacy issues, but that the Stormont House Agreement was perhaps now our last chance of having an agreed approach to addressing the legacy of the past.

Former justice minister Claire Sugden expressed concern that our society has not resolved how to deal with past trauma. Conal McFeely, a community sector activist, argued that we have not learnt from the past and instead are repeating the mistakes of the past. Lord Robin Eames warned of the danger of re-writing history.

In the panel discussion, Julieann Campbell spoke of her work in telling the stories of women’s personal experiences during the Troubles. But she said that while story telling is important and that these stories need to be told, they also need to go somewhere and influence the future direction and policy.

Denis Bradley said that he stands over Eames-Bradley as a good report, but a lost opportunity. Its value was that it was a holistic report. One aspect that is now typically forgotten is that it recommended the allocation of £100m to go into trauma services

Maureen Hetherington spoke of her work on ‘testimony’. The community sector, she said, has held people together, but there is a massive need for more counsellors and more availability of counselling sessions for people dealing with trauma.

Declan McGonagle warned that the narrative of the past has become a re-fighting of the Troubles by other means. The consideration of what has happened needs to be framed not as dealing with the past, but as dealing with the future.

Denis Bradley responded that this will only be possible if the two governments – of the UK and Ireland – see the process as being about the future.

Julieann Campbell said that she believes politicians are sweeping everything under the carpet: “It’s a big carpet.” I added that my feeling is that Northern Ireland’s politicians focus on what they want to do, not on what they have to do.

This latest Forward Together podcast is available here. The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

A further panel discussion will be included in another podcast to follow next week.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

Review 2 - Shared & Integrated Society Oct 07, 2019

FULL SHOW NOTES

Creating a shared and integrated society

A discussion on how to create a shared and integrated society was held as part of a concluding reflection on the Holywell Trust’s series of Forward Together podcasts. The panel was author Julieann Campbell, the commentator Denis Bradley (who was co-chair of the Consultative Group on the Past and former deputy chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board) and Maureen Hetherington of the Junction, plus Paul Gosling who conducted the interviews for the 35 podcasts.

We began by listening to highlights from the recordings. Linda Ervine suggested that the majority of people want to share Northern Ireland, want peace and do not want to go backwards, or support the stalemate politics we have here.

Claire Sugden MLA explained that while we all have our ideologies we need to focus more on improving public services, and that too often the political differences get in the way of this. Fergus O’Dowd TD urged greater educational integration, based on children attending their local schools.

Simon Hamilton argued there needs to be a greater recognition that social reconciliation is a long term, 50 year project.

In her podcast interview, Maureen Hetherington said that while integrated education is essential, there needs first to be greater social integration across society. She added that if more people understood the financial cost of social and educational segregation there would be more support for school integration.

Conal McFeely urged greater support for a human rights framework as the basis for making social progress, which the Good Friday Agreement provided for. But, he argued, this has still not been properly or fully implemented. He added that the failures of governance that led to the Troubles are still reflected in Northern Ireland society today.

In the panel debate Maureen urged greater focus on parenting and child development, which requires more support and respect for women as, usually, the main parent. “We need to start with the children upward,” she said.

The discussion also considered the contribution in one of the podcasts from Andrew McCracken of the Community Foundation of Northern Ireland. He emphasised the class differences within our society, with class and family income often reflected in the different intake of selective and non-selective schools.

Naomi Long had said in her interview that there was a £750m to £1.5bn cost per year of service duplication because services in many cases are segregated.

Interviewees had suggested ways of bringing society together. Peter Sheridan had called for a Department of Reconciliation, Father Martin Magill had proposed a Social Integration Agency, while Peter Osborne had urged a review of the schooling system to reduce costs and promote social integration amongst children.

Denis Bradley responded that parents are determined to get their children into the best academic school, rather than focusing on integration. “Having said that, it is an absolute disgrace we are wasting about £1bn a year. And the way to sort that is to pull the £1bn out.”

But Denis added that he is optimistic that Northern Ireland will sort its challenges out – in contrast to the situation in England, which is beginning to deal with divisions that are now surfacing.

Maureen warned that too often schools are focused on academic achievement, rather than servicing the needs of all children, including those with disabilities, and are often not helping children to develop beyond education qualifications.

Julieann stressed that increasing numbers of children want more than the schooling system currently offers – especially those children of the very many mixed background families.

Further panel discussions will be included in other podcasts to follow over the next three weeks.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Review 1 - Civic Voice Sep 30, 2019

FULL SHOW NOTES

A discussion on how to strengthen civic society was held as part of a concluding reflection on the Holywell Trust’s series of Forward Together podcasts. The panel was author Julieann Campbell, the commentator Denis Bradley (who was co-chair of the Consultative Group on the Past and former deputy chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board) and Maureen Hetherington of the Junction, plus myself as the person who conducted the interviews for the 35 podcasts.

We began by listening to highlights from the recordings. The now retired Church of Ireland Bishop of Derry and Raphoe Ken Good said in his interview: “I would like our politicians to be speaking less, or be reported less, and for civic forum people to be speaking more, or reported more, or asked more”. Former Ulster Unionist Party leader Mike Nesbitt said: “I would like civic unionism to be more active.... I look quite enviously at civic nationalism”.

Avila Kilmurray of the Social Change Initiative stressed “participative democracy doesn’t replace representative democracy, it enhances it”. Irish language activist Linda Ervine added that “so many people are not voting,” asking “how do we change that, how do we give [people] a greater voice?” And victims campaigner Alan McBride said: “I thought the Civic Forum was a great idea – it’s not a threat to democracy – I would like to see something like that happening again.”

Peter Sheridan, chief executive of Co-operation Ireland and a former senior officer in the RUC, explained in detail how a Citizens’ Assembly in Northern Ireland might work. While Alliance Party leader, and MEP, Naomi Long pointed out that there is now a recognition amongst many politicians that they need to improve civic engagement to address some of the big unresolved challenges.

In the panel discussion I underlined the general support across the interviews for stronger civic engagement, with the exception of the strong reservations in the interviews with politicians representing the DUP and Sinn Fein – who both appeared concerned that a strong civic society would be at the expense of the perceived legitimacy of the main parties.

Denis Bradley expressed his support for the experience of the Citizens’ Assembly in the Republic. Denis added that he believes that the significances of the problems – such as Brexit – that Northern Ireland is currently addressing makes it very likely that some new form of civic engagement will soon emerge.

Julieann Campbell responded: “I think there are people willing to speak, there are people willing to get their hands dirty, to get involved and come up with solutions – but who is out there listening?” She added: “How are we going to change things otherwise? While the will is there, the passion is there, we haven’t got the mechanisms to do it? There’s a vacuum.”

Maureen Hetherington stressed her belief in the Citizens’ Assembly model and said that it was a model that could be mobilised behind. She added that the current political system is not working. “There’s never been a greater opportunity.” Julieann agreed with Peter Sheridan that a Citizens’ Assembly would be an excellent idea to trial in interface areas – drawing on the experience in Derry of resolving parading disputes.

Denis emphasised that the roles of representative democracy and civic engagement are different – but civic engagement can assist politicians to do things where otherwise there is too much resistance. That has been the experience of the Citizens’ Assembly in the Republic.

This latest Forward Together podcast is available here. The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Further panel discussions will be included in other podcasts to follow over the next four weeks.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 35 - Freya McClements Sep 16, 2019

FULL SHOW NOTES

“You want to do them justice and to do their stories justice.” Telling the stories of the children who died in the Troubles.

“We've done interviews with just shy of 100 families who lost children during the Troubles,” explains Freya McClements. “And you feel like you know them. The thing above all is that you want to do them justice and to do their stories justice.”

Freya is discussing the research that she and Joe Duffy have done for their book Children of the Troubles, which is published in October. She describes the opportunity to write the book as “a privilege”. Freya admits that the research has been difficult and upsetting. “Your focus is always that it's not about you. It's about the person that you speak to, but how you then convey their experiences or what they say to the world.

“But there were times when we were doing several interviews in a day with people who had lost children. If you think of what might happen to you in your lifetime, to lose a child is probably the worst thing that can happen. And in violent circumstances - sometimes unimaginably just terrible, terrible circumstances.

“You might be sitting down with the mother or father of this child, who has maybe never before spoken to anybody, who's been carrying the hurts and the trauma and the grief of this for 40 years, for nearly 50 years in some cases.

“And there was one moment in particular - I'd been talking to the mother of a little baby called Angela Gallagher, who was an 18 month old who was killed by a ricochet bullet in Belfast at the very start of the Troubles. Her sister had her by her hand, and she was walking to go and get sweets. There was shooting going on between the IRA and the British army. One of these bullets ricocheted and hit little Angela. I was driving back up the road to Derry. And the tears were just coming down my face as I was driving along the road. I had to pull over and stop.”

Freya believes the work that she and Joe Duffy have done is important in helping people today understand the past. “I'm confident and Joe is confident this is going to make a real contribution to our understanding of the Troubles and hopefully to that discussion about where we go from here,” she says. “That is the achievement.”

For many parents, the most important thing is that their lost children are remembered and the tragedy of their deaths is acknowledged. This is especially important because of the lack of counselling and support services during the Troubles – and the lack of them even today. “It's about giving space to reflect and to talk about things that really haven't been talked about,” adds Freya.

She continues: “There's the importance of acknowledgement.... there were families who would say, we have never spoken to anybody before, but because this is a book, we want this done in the book, because there's going to be a record of the children. And we want people to know. And I mean, there are mothers and fathers, siblings out there who are really elderly. In 10 years time, they are not going to be here.”

Freya explains: “There was a huge number of deaths, a toll of bad luck or bad chance or accident, they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. In some cases, there's nothing that can be done. One father said, ‘I wish we had a case. I follow all those other families in the news that can take cases. If that was me, I'd be up in that court every day. But it was just an accident. There's nothing that we can do.’ That's powerlessness.”

She recalls one story that she found particularly touching. “One man spoke about how he thinks he received phone calls from the man that he thinks killed his daughter and it was an accident and he hadn't meant to do it. He got these phone calls late at night. And this man would cry. And he just said how sorry he was. That father's view was that he’s suffering - and that's a tragedy, that he's suffering.”

Freya believes that examining the past is a positive process for those involved “to give them a voice”. “The idea that that you're bringing anything [traumatic] back is just ridiculous because it is always there.” But, she adds, there are many children who died for whom there is no close family left – they have all died.

An abiding reflection is that the pain of loss is common across the communities and whatever the causes of deaths. Freya explains: “I always go back to two interviews I did when I worked for the BBC, with two sisters [of men who had died] - one had a brother who was in the UDR who had been shot by a sniper and killed, and the other had a brother who was a member of the IRA, who'd been killed by the British army.

“We played the two interviews without identifying who the people were and who the victims were. When you listen to them without that knowledge, all you heard was two sisters who talked about how family life had been destroyed, who talked about the effects on their mothers, talked about the fact that the brothers weren't there, to see them get married, to see their nieces and nephews, to have children of their own. It was that loss and the impact of the Troubles on a really human level.”

Freya is left with a strong sense of tragedy for the children who died. “It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. The deaths of every single one of those children was wrong. And it should it should never have happened.”

Freya was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast, other episodes are available here. The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

A panel of past interviewees Denis Bradley, Maureen Hetherington and Julieann Campbell, together with Gerard Deane and Paul Gosling, will discuss the Forward Together series of podcasts. The event will take place at 2pm on Wednesday 18th September at the Holywell Trust, on Bishop Street in Derry/Londonderry. It is open to all.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Good Relations Week - Review & Panel Discussion Sep 11, 2019

FULL SHOW NOTES
Information on our upcoming Forward Together Podcast event taking place at 2.00pm on 18th September at Holywell Trust, 10-12 Bishop Street, Derry. The event is open for all to attend and we'll hear highlights from our series and have a discussion with our panel made up of Paul Gosling, Denis Bradley, Maureen Hetherington (The Junction) and Julieann Campbell (Museum of Free Derry).

Episode 34 - Jo Egan Sep 09, 2019

FULL EPISODE NOTES

‘Telling Troubles stories can help deal with the past’

Telling stories about the past – about the Troubles – can help families and society move on, says playwright Jo Egan. She dramatised the events that killed six children during the Troubles in‘The Crack in Everything’, which was produced by Derry’s Playhouse Theatre as part of a European Union Peace project. She was also responsible for ‘Crimea Square’, a community theatre play about the history of the Shankill Road.

“People want to be heard,” says Jo. “They want their stories recognised. And I think we need to recognise and hear the stories.”

Some families had never told Troubles events to younger generations. The staged dramatisations enabled younger family members to learn about past traumatic events in their families. These productions involve people telling their own stories on stage and in their own words, helped by research from Jo.

“I had all the traditional fears that I wasn't going to be able to write the play that reflected what the people wanted,” says Jo. “And that fear drives you as an artist.”

One of the challenges was that the narrative of people’s experience had become distorted and needed to be placed in a clearer context for the audience to understand. “It did feel as if their capacity to tell a story coherently had been fragmented, had been blown apart. People go to tell you a story, and it's traumatic storytelling, they spiral off into different things and can't quite pull it together. They can't quite grab it.... it felt to me at the end of it, when we were performing the stories, that I was giving them back a coherent story that they hadn't been able to put together.”

She adds: “I needed a coherent story where [the audience] could clearly see the wrongs, the rights, the injustices of the story and hear what had happened.... [that] was a joyful aspect of it. I could see that there was a kind of happiness to have got this cogent story.... But there's always different perspectives that have crept in. It was not quite the play you thought you were going to deliver.”

While dramatisations and storytelling can be helpful for understanding and considering past events, it is also essential that support services are available to people dealing with trauma. “It's fine to have counselling and psychotherapy,” says Jo. “I think the correct type of treatment for post-traumatic stress is very, very important. I don't personally believe that we have enough counsellors who can do that.”

One of the features of post-Troubles Northern Ireland is the many books written by survivors about events. “And that perhaps is a way for people to try and make sense and also to try to reduce the emotional impact of their experiences,” says Jo.

Jo Egan was interviewed for the second in a series of three special podcasts featuring writers of historic events in the Troubles, asking them how these stories affected them and what their experiences might mean for how we deal with the Troubles legacy.

‘The Crack in Everything’ was produced by the Playhouse Theatre, in partnership with the Holywell Trust, the Thomas D’Arcy McGee Foundation and Queen’s University as part of the Peacebuilding Academy, financed by the European Union’s Peace IV programme. Performances took place in Derry and Belfast at the end of last year. The programme of a range of peacebuilding performances continues into 2020.

The latest podcast interview is available here. The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 33 - Julieann Campbell Sep 02, 2019

‘Unless we start listening, we’re not going to move forward’

“Unless we start listening, we're not really going to move forward,” says Julieann Campbell, editor of the Unheard Voices collection of women's stories from the Troubles. She was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Julieann reflects in the podcast on the impact on her of the interviews with women about their experiences in the Troubles. “I think it has affected me on several levels, emotionally and in my work,” she says. “It is a fact that it has made me more sensitive. It has made me more empathetic towards people I meet. And it has made me less judgmental.

“And I think it has opened my eyes to the hurt that is still here that I would never have seen if I hadn't engaged in this kind of work. So it was a real eye opener for me personally.

“I think some of the strongest work that I've done in recent years was with the security forces. And being from my community I would have been afraid to speak to those people. But they were some of the most powerful interviews I've ever done.

“And it was really, really interesting to hear that point of view, because it was something that I had never, ever been privy to before. And it gives you a different perspective, because it shows that the hurt and the fear was universal.”

Julieann adds: “Across the board, there was a feeling of a shared anguish and a shared pain. And that shared feeling that you were afraid to go to bed at night because you didn't know what was going to happen. And that was [true for] victims and perpetrators. And that was [true for the] security forces. Everyone had that same sense of dread and uneasiness. And I think that comes across very powerfully in the work that I've done.”

Unheard Voices is unusual in terms of studies into the Troubles, because it not only contains first person stories, but also they were from women. “They were the backbone of society, we always say,” explains Julieann. “But nobody ever asks women for their voice. That's why this Unheard Voices project was a challenge.

“When you sat down with these women, most of them said, oh, I haven't anything to tell. And then they would start speaking and you could hear a pin drop. And it became very obvious that no one had ever asked before. And that's something that we need to address. If there's all these untold stories out there, who's asking and who's listening? That would go a long way to healing and moving on. It’s just that basic human want to be heard and acknowledged.”

Julieann adds that there is “a recurrent trait that people think no one wants to know what happened to them”. Capturing stories at this time is essential, adds Julieann, because many of the people involved in events are towards the end of their lives.

“My daddy was present in Bloody Sunday and is not with us anymore,” says Julieann. “And I wish I had asked him, because he never spoke of it and never gave evidence at the inquiry. Whatever he saw was so horrific.” And for witnesses of various events, the impact “has been life changing”, but so too has been the opportunity for them, years later, to tell their stories. “That was a few hours of our life, but it changed someone else's life,” says Julieann. “I would say it is a catharsis.”

She adds: “We can't just brush it under the carpet. It comes up time and time again. There's so many historic cases that have never even had an inquest, let alone a police investigation. And these are coming on 45, 50 years ago. And if it's not addressed right, then we are actually leaving the next generation with a burden. And that's not fair on them... it's an open wound passed on.”

While Julieann says that listening to the stories has been positive for her, it has also been painful. “I would've had a lot of crying in the middle of the night. And one time there was a story about a woman whose husband was shot dead through her living room window when they were just sitting, watching TV - and speaking to that woman about that and then writing that out and transcribing it. I had to stop and drink wine and watch cartoons in the middle of the night, I remember.

“And that was one that particularly affected me, that I had to do anything to get those images out of my mind. So it became quite difficult, intruding on someone else's grief, almost. But in a way, that's a privilege as well. And you have to do their story justice.

“There’s no point shying away from it. That could be very easy when someone is telling you something that is so significant, and so detailed, to move on to the next thing, but, no, let them speak and let them go into every single detail, because even if it is uncomfortable for us to hear, my God they need to say it.”

Julieann Campbell was interviewed for a series of three special podcasts featuring writers of historic events in the Troubles, asking them how these stories affected them and what their experiences might mean for how we deal with the Troubles legacy.

The Forward Together podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 32 - Peter Osborne Aug 19, 2019

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

‘Transformative decisions on Northern Ireland have not been taken’, laments Peter Osborne

Northern Ireland is more than 20 years into a 50 year peace process, which is being held back because government here has failed to take the radical transformative steps that are required. This is the view of Peter Osborne, the former chair of the Community Relations Council, in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Peter explains: “We are in a process that will last at least 50 years. Some people thought when the [Good Friday] agreement was signed, we had peace. We don't. Some people thought it would take 10 or 20 years. It won't. It will take generations and it will be at least 50 years. So 20 years on from the Good Friday Agreement, we are less than halfway through this process.... There are no quick fixes. But we also need to understand that it can go backwards as well as forwards. There is no inevitable forward flow to the peace in Northern Ireland and we are in a very serious situation.”

He continues: “Politics is really important, but it's about more than politics. I think in 20 years since the agreement, we haven't taken the transformational decisions that are necessary. We still have a society that is as segregated as it ever was.”

Peter argues that we must do more to integrate our society and rebuts suggestions that integrating education and housing represents ‘social engineering’. “Our system has the greatest degree of social engineering that there's ever been.”

As well as being socially harmful, segregation is also extremely wasteful of resources, suggests Peter. “So we need to take a really serious look at how we can have one teacher training college for everybody in Northern Ireland. I think we need to take a really serious look at how structurally education is managed through area planning. And we also need to come up with initiatives that encourage local areas where there are two, three or four schools when there actually should be one or two to reduce the number of schools in that area. That will save millions of pounds.... But it needs some really courageous big political policy decisions. And we haven't taken those decisions yet.”

He instances: “In two villages a mile apart, along a part of the coast in Northern Ireland, those two villages have fewer than 250 children of primary school age. Yet those two villages a mile apart are served by four separate schools. That wouldn't happen anywhere else in these islands.”

Peter is dismissive of the limited objective to create more shared housing. “Our shared housing policy has an ambition which equates to less than 1% of total housing,” he points out. And the policy promoting shared housing has to be backed by the enforcement of law intended to prevent intimidation. “I think the law and the legal guidance is very clear. You cannot erect things on lampposts.... It's not just a policing issue. It's for other agencies, too.

“Can you take those flags down everywhere? I think that would be a huge challenge, because of the number of flags that are up. I understand that. But when you come to a shared housing area, I think you need to implement the law when the law says you cannot put flags up. It is even stronger when it comes to flags that are related to a prescribed illegal organization when it is done, especially, to intimidate. Those flags should be coming down in those shared housing areas and we should have zero tolerance when the flags go up.”

Peter believes that the political leaders of the two main traditions need to recognise that it is in their mutual interests for Northern Ireland to work. He says: “If I was a unionist, I would want reconciliation here because I would acknowledge that reconciliation is an important part of making this place work, especially when we are all minorities in Northern Ireland. There is no majority. We're all minorities. And so any way you make this place work from a unionist perspective is to help reconcile the peoples in Northern Ireland so that they can work together better. But if you're from a republican background, I think the exactly same argument applies.”

Peter fears that civil society is not sufficiently powerful or forthright in Northern Ireland, because of its dependence on public funding and the experience that many organisations have closed following withdrawal of funds. “I think it's really important we find a mechanism for civil society to have its voice heard,” he says. “I think that if you looked at some of the issues that are problematic in politics in Northern Ireland today, I suspect if you handed some of those issues over to civil society, they'd find an answer very quickly, regardless of what those issues are.”

He continues: “I am a fan of things like citizens’ assemblies that we've seen working in the Republic of Ireland very, very successfully.... So there are mechanisms that work. And I think in Northern Ireland we need to find mechanisms to apply civil society ‘s voice, because when you look at some of the big successes of the peace process over the last 20 years, then the big successes, I would argue, are policing and parading. What do they have in common?” His answer is that the solutions emerged from civil society.

But, warns Peter: “We cannot afford another 10 or 20 years of focusing exclusively on political institutions as the way forward for this peace process.... It's relationship building that is at the heart of peace building.”

The latest podcast interview is available here. The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 31 - Andrew McCracken Aug 12, 2019

FULL EPISODE NOTES

Class division in Northern Ireland even greater than between orange and green, argues CFNI chief.

Class is a bigger and more significant division in Northern Ireland than is the religious divide, argues the chief executive of the Community Foundation Northern Ireland Andrew McCracken. “Whilst there's the really visible gap between orange and green, the more fundamental and more important gap is the gap between rich and poor and the bubbles of society that we live in,” says Andrew in the latest Forward Together podcast.

He continues: “The thing I really care about, that's part of the answer to that question about how we strengthen civic society is how do we create meaningful bridges and relationships between those bubbles that we all live in.”

Andrew argues that there needs to be a greater focus within the community sector on common themes – such as mental health and suicide – and less on identity issues that divide society.

“It's about the rich and poor, the class gap, about generosity, and giving, and how we do that,” he says. “There's also something about democracy and [finding a] voice that I think is really important and that the Foundation is supporting projects around.

“So it seems to me that if we want to really transform civic society, the current mechanisms for democracy that we have aren't all the tools that we need in the tool box. And that's true across the UK.” He adds: “There's all kinds of additional ways of doing democracy that aren't just about the ballot box. So we funded Northern Ireland's first independent citizens’ assembly [looking at social care] in November.

“So that's where you get people who are demographically representative of all of Northern Ireland. Invite them to take two weekends to be briefed by experts, debate policy [and then] issuing some recommendations on that policy issue. We were overwhelmed by the response... Within two days, we had 300 volunteers, saying, yes, I'll set aside two weekends of my time to do this....

“We were able to have a meaningful conversation and come up with some recommendations together. And it was bloody hard work. But we did it. For me that's a transformation of civic society that's giving people the confidence that we're able to participate and make decisions together in a way that isn't about fighting the old political battles....

“I think that's a tool that can be used locally as well as nationally to solve a problem. The model of citizens’ assembly that we did is really expensive. And so it wouldn't necessarily be the most sustainable way to run a hundred of those across Northern Ireland.”

While Andrew is a strong supporter of educational integration, he does so to promote wider social integration, not just about bringing together children from different religious traditions. “It's about mixing people from different backgrounds across wealth and class, [not just] Protestant, Catholic mixing. The education system is just a massive issue that we need to solve. The trend in the transfer test system sorts kids based on whether they're rich or poor - and puts the rich kids in one set of schools and the poorer kids in another set of schools.

“In other words, there's two sets of integration problems, of challenges at school. One is the religious differentiation. The other is that broadly wealthy middle class families get their kids into the grammar schools and the poor kids go to the non selective schools. And with all respect for the people working really hard on the Protestant / Catholic issue, if you give me a thousand pounds to do something about those problems, I’d put it onto the class issue - the rich and poor issue - because it gets even less of a time in the spotlight.”

Andrew stresses that one of the biggest predictors on whether a child goes into a grammar school is that they are not on free school meals. “And that is not right. I don't believe that if you have free school meals that makes you more or less intelligent.” The result, argues Andrew, is “a terrible system”.

When looking to the future, Andrew argues more attention needs to be placed on social deprivation. “Poverty, marginalisation, people who don't have a fair chance in life. Those issues are hugely important and personally to me, much more important than issues about identity and constitution. And there's a strong argument that they are a big chunk of the root causes of conflict.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 30 - Mark Daly Aug 05, 2019

FULL EPISODE NOTES

Deal with disadvantage before unity, argues Senator Mark Daly

To achieve a united Ireland without a return to conflict requires northern society to resolve the problems of its communities that contain deep-seated deprivation and alienation, argues Senator Mark Daly. Mark is the former chair of the Oireachtas Good Friday Agreement Implementation Committee and was interviewed for the latest Forward Together podcast shortly after the release of his report, ‘Returning to violence as a result of a hard border due to Brexit or a rushed border poll: risks for youth’.

Mark explains: “This report I did in conjunction with two UNESCO chairs who are experts in preventing violent extremism and they make the point that most kids would never get involved in any of that. But that was the same during the Troubles - most people were not involved in armed conflict on either side. But it didn't take much more than a few people to create a huge amount of harm to the whole society.

“Professor Pat Dolan and Professor Mark Brennan compiled this report, along with myself and Michael Ortiz who was President Obama's senior policy adviser at the National Security Council on counter-terrorism, but also he was the first US diplomat appointed by the State Department on the issue of countering violent extremism.

“They put together a number of recommendations - the vast majority of the report is about what needs to be done now in those disadvantaged communities. A lot of great programmes are there, they're being done and they are being done on a cross-community basis. But they are simply not on the scale that is required, with the amount of money that is needed to make sure that what is termed in this report ‘the agreement generation’ - those who were born just before or since the Good Friday agreement - aren't radicalized.”

He adds that while the cost of dealing with disadvantage and deprivation is large “the investment is going to have a huge return because not doing that investment will have very bad consequences.”

Mark warns of the potential exploitation by paramilitary leaders from both republican and loyalist backgrounds. “So what it needs is a scaled-up approach.... history could be used as a tool against itself.... instead of using history as a way of mobilising communities to settle grievances from the past. As we all know, even God can't change the past.Trying to settle grievances by using force is not the way forward. What they [the authors] do is talk about using history as a way of teaching people the consequences of violent resistance. And all the consequences for ordinary people.”

Integration in schools and housing is another core recommendation in the report, which focuses on how to prevent a recurrence of violence, especially in the context of Brexit and possible further tension related to it.

The motivations of paramilitary leaders are also considered. “It's in the report that some of the community leaders in both communities are community leaders by day and then they're involved in crime... Most people are doing great work, but there are some who are not. And they are giving a romanticised view. And again this is referred to in this report, the romanticised view of the Troubles.” That, too, applies in both republican and loyalist communities, argues Mark, with paramilitary leaders recruiting young people by misreporting the past. “Young people who have no memory of the Troubles will be exploited by adults who want to achieve their own ends and give this glorified view of the past.” What is needed, suggests Mark, is a more objective view of the past to be put forward to undermine the paramilitary narrative.

Mark dismisses the fear that openly discussing the past will re-traumatise victims and relatives – because so many remain traumatised. “Some of them could be suffering from mental health problems as a result post traumatic stress disorder. Alcohol and drug addiction and that then is having an effect on the next generation. So now we are having a pyramid effect where there are more and more people being affected by the Troubles, including a generation that wasn't even born at the time.

“That's what I'm talking about - the return on investment in mental health services is very important. But that requires structure.... you need a plan. Because policy neglect seldom goes unpunished.”

Mark adds in relation to the history of the Troubles: “The problem with the politics is that there are so many people who have so much to hide on all sides - the paramilitary sides, and the police in the north, and the south, and in Britain.” There is, though, “no one size fits all answer” to resolve the continuing trauma of victims and their families.

Openness about the past should be matched by honest planning for the future, suggests Mark. “One lesson of Brexit in relation to the issue of holding referendums is that you do not hold a referendum and then try to figure out the future. That work needs to be done now, because if you don't do that work now you are adding fuel to a tense situation and then all it needs is a spark.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 29 - Aideen McGinley Jul 29, 2019

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Community planning provides a model that builds on the tradition of the “very strong community spirit that prevailed in Northern Ireland” during the Troubles, argues Aideen McGinley in the latest Forward Trust podcast. McGinley is a trustee of Carnegie UK, co-chair of its embedding wellbeing project in Northern Ireland and a former senior civil servant.

Aideen stresses that we need to be positive rather than fearful as we look to the future. “The bottom line is that people do not want to go back,” she says. Aideen reflects: “I was at an event in Leeds in May with four parts of the civil service across the UK and there was a very interesting workshop on Northern Ireland where a professor from Queen’s University put forward the point that the Good Friday Agreement is a very good agreement. It was an international agreement that took five years to negotiate, with multi strands based on the principle of consent. In fact, he felt that in the current Brexit devolution situation it’s something the rest of the UK should look at as a model of best practice…. I think what we’re missing at the moment is the leadership.”

Aideen is strongly committed to the principle that government here should focus on the promotion and achievement of wellbeing. “We started out on the wellbeing agenda back in 2013, it having been very successfully implemented by the Scottish government.” In Northern Ireland the approach is to “create innovation on common ground”.

“What Carnegie did was they came in and we invited all 11 councils, and all 11 applied, and we’re putting extra resources into three of them. We’re looking at co-production so that it is about working with people to determine what the plans would be. We’re talking about shared leadership.”

From this, says Aideen, community planning has become a vehicle for civic engagement. It is better today, she suggests to build on the community planning experience than to go back to the old Civic Forum. “I think this way you can get voices coming up through… local and central government where there’s a voice that the politicians at the top won’t see as a threat, but will actually see as organic. I think some of what’s happening is the shared leadership and the co-production piece as people are working together to prioritise to get their plans, to articulate what’s important to them…. You’re finding that the community planning process isn’t just dominated by the major parties in each area.”

When addressing division in society, Aideen is a strong supporter of shared education. “For me the shared education model is a really interesting one,” she says. “I have grandchildren who’ve been beneficiaries of it.” The shared education model might be further developed, she believes, at sixth form level, given the difficulty individual post-primary schools have in offering a sufficiently wide choice of A level subjects. “I’m not simplistic about it, but I think we have an opportunity coming up, particularly with school finances. There’s hardly a school I know that does not operate on a deficit…. And when they get to secondary and grammar level the kids are not getting the choice of subjects”.

Aideen also believes that we must invest more in mental health services. “Mental health in Northern Ireland is abominable,” she says. “I’m involved in a mental health charity and it is shocking the levels of suicide, particularly of young men…. I think the biggest crisis in our health service in Northern Ireland is in mental health.”

The latest podcast interview is available here. The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 28 - Robin Eames Jul 22, 2019

FULL EPISODE NOTES

Politicians in Northern Ireland feel threatened by the concept of a strong civic society, but we should pursue the ambition of creating a ‘People’s Assembly’, argues Lord Robin Eames, the former Church of Ireland Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland. Robin was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“We’re at a very delicate stage where our society is beginning to learn that the party politic regime doesn’t necessarily reflect their deepest concerns,” he says. “I’m talking about health and education and social issues. What I think is appearing in Northern Ireland is a gulf between the way in which elected politicians are trying to represent views in which they’re not really in touch with the vast majority of society.

“And I think this means that they’re falling back all the time on party political issues. And I think that the Brexit pressure is bringing this to the surface. The old traditional views where unionist or republican parties were able to state fairly clearly their position – that is not necessarily [now] the position of their constituents. And then added to that, there are the people in normal ordinary everyday society who are turning their backs on the party political input and beginning to say – you’re playing your own games, but you’re not either representing us or reflecting what really concerns us at the ground level.”

Robin suggests: “I think we need to do a lot more research into the ‘People’s Assembly’ concept. I think we need to do a lot more on how the media reflects what people on the ground are saying and I think people to a large extent – the people that talk to me, the people that I am in touch with – feel a tremendous degree of frustration at the lack of representation and the lack of understanding of the media of what really concerns them in everyday life.”

Consideration of a ‘People’s Assembly’ is “only at an early stage”, says Robin. “It is very similar” to the concept of the citizens’ assemblies in the Republic that have been used to address difficult topics there. “It is to try to get a voice that is honest, open and in touch with reality. The structure for that is probably more important even than those who take part in it.” The main parties in Northern Ireland may seem uncomfortable about any such structure. “But you see that’s really an indication of feeling threatened.”

When asked about how we create a more shared and integrated society, Robin responds, drawing on his experience as co-chair of Eames-Bradley (the Consultative Group on the Past), “Well we tried to bite the bullet on issues like who was a victim. Do you say that we were all victims? Those of us who lived through and were involved in the years of the Troubles, we were all victims of a mass of disintegration of society. Is that the way to approach it? Victims are people who suffer, irrespective of the label, irrespective of who they were, or what they did. They suffered because of the enormity of what the Troubles did. Or do we sink back into the orange and green, in which we say that only an innocent person is a genuine victim?”

So does Robin believe that we can only make progress in building a future society, if we honestly and openly deal with the past? “That’s exactly what I’m saying,” he responds. “You must remember that I’m speaking from my personal experience of ministering to many hundreds of people who were suffering because of the Troubles…. Maturity demands that we take a wider view of what a victim was. A victim is someone who suffered physically, mentally, spiritually, materially, because of the fact they lived in a certain place, they did a certain job, they had a certain political outlook and they were involved in a situation that was massively bigger than anything they were told they would have to face.”

What then of Eames-Bradley? “The interesting thing is that it was a technicality over proposing a particular figure for compensation that was the watchword for those who tried to destroy the report. Time and time again in all the years since, people have gone back to Eames-Bradley and even now as the government tries to look at a way of dealing with the past, people come to me and say what did that mean in the Eames-Bradley report? In other words it’s not gathering dust on a bookcase somewhere. It’s actually still in people’s minds… There are still the seeds of Eames-Bradley. So if you were to ask me if you were doing it again, would you change it, I would probably change the question of mentioning a figure, yes. But the rest of it should stand.”

He adds: “At the moment, I think Stormont House is progress. I think it owes a lot to Eames-Bradley. And I think that again indicates that a lot of what we said is still in people’s minds.”

Does that mean we need a process for the recovery of truth and do we need those involved to make apologies for us to make progress? “In a sense you’re already rewriting history. If you are a republican activist and you say I’m sorry for what I did – does that question your integrity and being involved in the first place? Does it mean for example a loyalist paramilitary – and I’m in touch with many of that ilk at the moment – does it mean that if a loyalist paramilitary comes out into the open and says look I want to apologize for what I did – what does it say about your involvement in the first place?”

Robin warns of the danger of re-writing history. “People have said to me we need a completely independent history of what happened. I say, yes of course we do. But who is going to do that, what is independence and what is the reality of the evidence they will use?…. When I was making my contribution to Eames-Bradley I had a lot of conversations with Desmond Tutu in South Africa over the truth and reconciliation tribunal that was happening in Cape Town. And the more I listened to him and the more we compared notes, the more I was convinced that the real element in looking at the past is honesty.

“Not honesty that would suit my party, my community. But honesty at a level where society has moved on to say, yes that happened, yes someone in my community caused that, but the truth is that has to be ticked-off as part of the history and you want a totally independent body to look at that in terms of – this is what happened and this is where we move on. That’s not to say you put a camouflage over it. It’s not to say you say oh that is irrelevant, it’s in the past. It should face up to it, hurtful, dangerous though it is. This is what happened. This is why we caused it, or we had a role in it. Let’s put it on the table and let’s move on.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 27 - Denis Bradley (Part 2) Jul 19, 2019

FULL EPISODE NOTES

‘Brexit means that Northern Ireland’s constitutional future has become an issue for Europe’, says Denis Bradley

Denis Bradley was keen to move on in the latest Forward Together podcast interview to discuss the constitutional position of Northern Ireland. “Well that's the one that intrigues me because I don't know the answer!,” he says.

“First of all I think something very important happened within the last couple of weeks and has not received attention. And that is that the Europeans have said if there a no deal situation we will still have to deal with the Northern Ireland situation. That's a massive movement.”

Denis insists that he does not believe that the re-imposition of a hard border is possible. People in border areas – “the local farmer, the local shopkeeper, the local child” – have now become too used to being without borders. “And anyway, all the border structures would be within green territory. What I mean by green territory is from here [Derry] to Dundalk is basically - with a few exceptions, a few pockets - it's basically a nationalist homeland. So to think that you could do that [impose a hard border] is thinking that you can put the cavalry of the old western films out into the fort somewhere.” But, in the analogy, the Apaches won’t stand for it.

He continues: “The Europeans are saying, if there's no deal.... we will not deal with the British government until we solve this problem. I think that brings us to a new place. To some degree it takes the sweat off Leo Varadkar. But I also think it's an understanding that we're different. That's what makes us different from Scotland.... I think the fascinating thing about Brexit is that it was an English construct. And it is going to leave England incredibly unsettled for a long period of time. Whether that is for five years, or 10 years, or a generation, I do not know.”

That, in turn, leads to a new conversation about the future of Northern Ireland, including the potential All Ireland Forum, favoured by Denis. “What we need is for a conversation to start,” he says. “What we need is engagement from all the different parts of this island.” But, he warns: “I do see unionism’s propensity to go back in on itself and at this difficult moment not to engage. I can understand why this is. They come from a position that nationalism can lose 20 times or 40 times - unionism can only lose once... They will become incredibly defensive.”

Denis wonders if unionism and loyalism is beginning a process of change. “My contact with loyalism over the last 20 years has been substantial and they have been very angry with the DUP, because they feel betrayed by the DUP and they feel that the DUP looks down their nose at them. I think they are much less willing to be radicalised into creating havoc on the streets if we lose the ‘precious union’ or the ‘precious union’ is under threat.”

But Denis adds that “the southern government and parties say this is crazy, this is not the right time” to call for a border poll. He continues: “Of course it's the wrong time and it's crude, it's simplistic, and crude and wrong to have a border poll now. That's as crude as you can get. The difficulty is that if you take that off the table, I'm not convinced unionism would move at all. It will stay within its own narrow ground. It won't move out into engagement.

“I think that the border poll, or the possibility of a border poll, at least challenges unionism. And I think Peter Robinson was hinting at that. I think Peter Robinson was prepared to look at that and make his people ready for that.... Robinson seems to be this lone voice and we haven't heard much else coming forth. I think it was Colum Eastwood who made a statement, which I thought had a lot of validity - he said it's very hard to have a conversation with people who don't want to talk to you. Is there civic society within unionism which is prepared to talk? Nationalism will talk.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 26 - Denis Bradley (Part 1) Jul 15, 2019

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Eames-Bradley process ‘should have done more to take the Irish government with it’ – says Denis Bradley

The Eames-Bradley process should have engaged more closely with the Irish government and ensured it was on board with the recommendations, says co-chair Denis Bradley in the latest Forward Together podcast. Eames-Bradley – properly called the Consultative Group on the Past – was published more than a decade ago and was intended to provide a way of dealing with the past and the needs and concerns of victims and survivors.

Denis says “I do [think the] report itself is an extremely good report. One of the worries when you do a report is that you think, was there a big pothole that we didn't see coming? That hasn't happened. The report has been incredibly good in that sense. The difficulty with the report is that there was only one government involved. I think that was a major mistake and I blame myself to some degree for that.... Remember that was when the Celtic Tiger was beginning to explode. But even without the Celtic Tiger exploding, they [the Irish government] were so cynical around it they were very reluctant to engage. I pleaded with them to be engaged.”

Denis says it was the lack of commitment to the report from the Irish government that damaged it rather than the controversial recommendation for each victim’s family to be given a payment of £12,000.

He explains: “So when the report came to its fruition and when the British government were faced with the possibility that unionism was kicking at this thing and saying we're not going to have this because it looks as if there's going to be given money to the family of people who were terrorists and so forth..... We won't have moral equivalence, which was their big thing. Basically their government ran away..... When [only] one government is engaged, I think that you do not get the roundness.”

Denis rejects the suggestion that it was the issue of payments that undermined the Eames-Bradley acceptance. “That's not true. There were five things within the report that could have been quite explosive. And people saw the payment one because it was the most explosive.”

Asked whether we should now return to Eames-Bradley, Denis stresses: “You have to deal with the past.”

Denis also addresses the structure of government in Northern Ireland, criticising the zero sum game approach of the major parties. “In other words if they get 50%, we get 50%.... But the outflow of that is that we have ended up with institutions that don't function particularly well.”

But that is not the only problem we have now. Denis expands: “Remember there's many ways in which we stand on the shoulders of the Good Friday Agreement - but there's even a greater way in which we stand on the shoulders of Anglo-Irish relationships. And Anglo-Irish relationships have gone off kilter.” Denis believes the governments mistakenly took a back step to leave the politics of the north to mature.

The challenge now is that Brexit has thrown society into uncertainty, as well as chaos. “Our problem at the moment is we don't know where we're going,” he argues. “It isn't time yet to settle down and make large decisions.”

The latest podcast interview covers Denis’s reflections on civil society, creating a shared society and the past. A further podcast will be released later this week in which Denis discusses the constitutional future of Northern Ireland.

The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 25 - Anthony Russell Jul 12, 2019

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‘Looking at how we got here can help us deal with the present and the future’, argues historical geographer

A better understanding of our history is important as a means of bringing our society together, believes Anthony Russell of the Thomas D'Arcy McGee Foundation. “One of the things that we have been trying to do in the Thomas D'Arcy McGee Foundation is to use history as a tool for reconciliation, rather than something that has to be fought over,” he explains. “Looking at how we got here” can help us to deal with the challenges we face today, says Anthony in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“And one of the things we tried to do in the Thomas D'Arcy McGee Foundation is to identify myths and to challenge those myths in a variety of ways,” Anthony adds. That has involved performances of historical events taking place within religious settings in which those events are explained and placed in context. In doing so, they challenge the assumed connections between religious affiliations and political attitudes.

“I think there's great hope in that,” says Anthony. “People looking at history, at the 1788 rebellion, the Great Famine, John Mitchell, with an openness to look at history and to learn from history.”

Part of that reconsideration of history includes recognising the connections and common causes between Presbyterianism and other non-conformist Protestantism with Catholicism in the past. “Oh very much so,” says Anthony, “and I think that's one of the great values of the 1788 commemoration with the very strong identification of the [Thomas Payne book] Rights of Man.”

Explaining history through personal stories is important, stresses Anthony. “Of course history is open to interpretation, but the idea of storytelling is very, very powerful. And Stalin was right - a million people is just a statistic. People pay much more attention to one person’s story.... it's very, very hard not to have empathy with any victim when you hear their stories.”

Looking at today’s society through the eyes of a historical geographer Anthony says that he sees parallels with other places. “I think we have to recognise, and the voters have recognised it for us, that there are two ethnic communities here and we should not underestimate the power of ethnicity. I always refer to the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. You had 60 years of a dominant totalitarian regime. Once it was peeled back the first thing that popped to the surface was ethnicity and we'd be very foolish in the north of Ireland to ignore just how deep ethnicity is.

“And we may not like it, but any problems we have have to be approached by recognizing that we have two very distinct communities.... In practice it means not doing what we're doing at the moment. And that is that we have two blocks which are intent on maximizing the power of that ethnicity.”

There are strong connections between the Thomas D'Arcy McGee Foundation and Canada – where Thomas D’Arcy Magee was a cabinet minister. (He was born in Carlingford, raised in Cushendall, emigrated to Boston, returned to Ireland and became a leading republican, wanted for treason, escaped to America and then Canada, where he became a father of Canadian Confederation, but opposed the Fenian movement – a supporter of which assassinated him.) Anthony reflects on how, in Toronto, the Orange Order has evolved to become a multi-racial and secular institution.

There are challenges today for unionism in Northern Ireland. “In the past when a unionist peered over the border onto the South, they saw exactly what they had predicted a hundred years ago - a priest-ridden Free State.... Southern society has changed enormously and, of course, much, much more liberally. Despite the apparent lack of notice by the DUP, I think the unionist community is very well aware that geographically and demographically that change is happening. They will have to accommodate that - and that puts a major responsibility on the nationalist and republican community to be generous in their response.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 24 - Maeve McLaughlin Jul 08, 2019

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Making progress on parading – can Northern Ireland learn from Derry-Londonderry?

As Northern Ireland moves towards what will hopefully be a peaceful 12th July, the manager of ‘the Derry Model’, Maeve McLoughlin – a former Sinn Fein MLA – reflects on how peaceful parading was negotiated, after years of conflict and tension in Derry-Londonderry. “It was spurred on by a commitment to the city,” she says, “and by people who genuinely wanted to be in a better place.

“That was the feeling of the Apprentice Boys as well. They love the city. They want the city to be perceived and presented in a very positive light. There is no doubt that the demographics, the largely republican/nationalist city, spurred on those conversations. It was also that when you have rights, you also have responsibilities.”

The Derry Model is a conflict transformation peacebuilding project, which seeks to spread awareness of the city’s success in addressing its historic problems over parading – which used to lead to the city centre being virtually closed down during parades. Progress was achieved through extensive negotiations, compromises and recognition of both rights and responsibilities. Maeve explains the work of the Derry Model in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“It is not one thing,” says Maeve. “We couldn’t say the Derry Model equals this set of circumstances or experience. It’s a mixture. I think it’s our demographics. We had leadership. We had people willing to take risks. We have sets of experiences. I wouldn’t be naive enough to say we can simply lift those experiences and tailor them into other areas.

“But we have templates. We have a sense of people who were willing to take risks - that is a big important message for other communities. So it is how we use those experiences to cascade that learning to other circumstances. That is not to say it is all going to fit perfectly. In terms of parading, the relationship in this city of the Apprentice Boys with the residents’ groups, and the relationship we have between the Bloody Sunday Museum and the Siege Museum is unique. And the business sector played a very proactive role to reach an accommodation.”

Maeve says that republicans, nationalists and business leaders in Derry were willing to take risks to achieve agreement on parading, as were people in the loyal orders. “When we look at the Maiden City Accord between the bands’ forum, potentially sanctioning or disciplining individual band members or entire bands. That was a very significant message to the city, that people were taking this seriously.” This meant the city could take control of problems relating, for example, to drunken “hangers-on”.

The Derry Model is also concerned with dealing with the past. Maeve says that while the concept of ‘justice’ means different things for different people, learning the truth is central to how we should deal with the past. She adds that apologies – such as that from David Cameron for Bloody Sunday – can help the families of some victims and can be important.

But Maeve warns that Northern Ireland cannot made lasting and genuine progress unless there is economic, social and environmental regeneration that addresses actual need. “We won’t change the outcome unless we target that need,” she says. “If we keep doing what we’re doing, we’re going to have the same outcome.”

Episode 23 - Fr. Martin McGill Jul 05, 2019

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‘We need an agency to promote social integration’, says Father Martin Magill

Northern Ireland needs a body lobbying for social integration, learning from the success of the Integrated Education Fund in its work promoting integrated schools, says Father Martin Magill. Without an agency pushing the integrated housing agenda, it will be difficult to make sufficient progress, he says. Martin was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“I grew up living in a neighbourhood where my next door neighbour was Presbyterian; further on down the road Church of Ireland; further down the road, Methodist,” recalls Martin. “We were various Christian denominations. My home area is people living side by side. For me, that's one of the most important things. I'm aware, for example, of the Integrated Education Fund and we hear a lot of that. I hear nothing to the same degree on encouraging integrated housing. And I really would like to see the likes of integrated neighbourhoods.”

He continues: “The sort of society I believe that we need to see for the city [of Belfast], Northern Ireland, Ireland, whatever, is where we can live together, where there are various religions.... faiths generally - those with faith and those without faith..... I would like to see a strategic body focusing, especially, on housing.”

Like many other Forward Together interviewees, Martin is positive about the principle of civic engagement. “I might use the old cliché, politics is too important to be left to the politicians alone.” He continues: “I would be very keen that we look again at the whole question of some type of civic forum. For me, there was a huge value in that. I mean, the whole idea of bringing people from a variety of different backgrounds is really important.”

But Martin is concerned at the low level of voter turn-out at local elections. “And yet at the same time, when I'm talking to people... they're very interested in the type of society they want.” Martin adds: “I think it's important that people realize they can make a difference, that their views matter, their opinions matter.” And while he has concerns about the outcome of the Republic’s citizens’ assemblies discussions on abortion, he says about the use of the assemblies “there's something worth exploring there”.

In a previous Forward Together interview, Peter Sheridan of Co-operation Ireland raised the idea of neighbourhood citizens’ assemblies to address the conditions that lead to recruitment of young people by paramilitaries. Martin responds to that idea: “I'm part of a group called Stop Attacks. So, yes, I can see what he would be talking about.” But, he cautions, “sometimes people are reluctant to speak when it comes to that issue.”

Martin is more positive about the concept of participatory budgeting, giving people more control over public spending in their own areas. “I think that could be of real value,” he says. “That's the sort of direction that I'm going... I think that could be a very useful way of helping us come together as a larger group, as a community.”

Another initiative Martin favours is “community champions” – people who take a lead in making neighbourhoods more diverse. “I would like to see something more strategic. I would like to see what I call community champions. I am aware of people who have purposely chosen to live in areas that wouldn't be necessarily their first choice. I would know of a number of people. I think we need more of that.”

Martin is also a strong supporter of moves that achieve reconciliation. He gives the example of the meetings between Brighton bomber Patrick Magee and Jo Berry, whose father was killed in the blast. “That acted as a catalyst for people to come and tell their stories,” he recalls. “They wanted to tell their stories.”

One of the advantages of that process of reconciliation is the humanising of those involved, including those who died. Another example of that approach was the inter-faith event where there was a reading of the complete list of those who died in the Troubles. “The focus we wanted was on people’s suffering, rather than getting into the details of how this person died and was this person an innocent victim or a perpetrator or whatever. We instead focused on the people that the loved ones left behind. Irrespective of what he or she or they did, inevitably people would be left to suffer as a consequence of their death.”

Martin also reflected on the reaction to his comments at the funeral of Lyra McKee. “I was completely taken by surprise,” he says. “The reaction I got was in the middle of a sentence. It was probably really that evening that I began to realize, oh, gosh, this has got quite a bit of traction. It's probably only really in the days afterwards that I then got a sense of just the impact of it. Immediately afterwards, it felt like almost a tsunami of attention: letters, phone calls, emails, it just went on and on and on and on.

“But now, one of the things is that I'm very conscious that I want to make sure I am well grounded. I had to make a big effort to do that. In many ways it really has given me an opportunity out of a really tragic situation to be able to speak into situations.”

There is a sense now, though, that the immediate impact has waned. “I would want to see a real momentum again,” says Martin. “If we go back to the moment in the cathedral - not focusing on me, but focusing on the response that people actually had both inside and outside the cathedral and well beyond that. Our politicians, I really would encourage them not to focus on me, but focus on the response of people. There was something very telling for me. That was like a catalyst moment. I really do believe that needs to be made the most of.”

Martin’s other message to politicians though is about the peace dividend, that Northern Ireland society expected to enjoy after the Good Friday Agreement – but for which many poorer communities are still awaiting. “The peace dividend should be seen as something that we should all enjoy. Not just some of us, but all of us.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 22 - Naomi Long Jul 01, 2019

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New way of consulting with civic society is part of the talks negotiations, discloses Naomi Long

Creating a new mechanism for consulting with civic society is part of the talks negotiations aimed at getting Stormont back, Alliance Party leader Naomi Long has disclosed. Naomi is a newly elected MEP, former MP and has just resigned her role as an MLA. She was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“We need to find a role for engaging with civil society,” suggests Naomi. “I think there is a lot of good work that goes on in our communities. And as elected representatives, we're all very conscious of that. But I don't think we ever really lived up to the objective of finding a proper mechanism through which those of us who were elected members of the community would be able to formally engage with civic society.”

She continues: “One of the things that we have been looking at, certainly in terms of the talks and the discussions we have been having, is how do we get something which is akin to the Civic Forum, which was there originally, but is able to engage with an Assembly... and would actually be a good platform for us to engage with. That is one of the strands of work that we have been looking at as part of the discussions that are ongoing, to get the Assembly restored.”

Naomi believes that the former Civic Forum was built on structural faults. “I think it was large and unwieldy. But I think, moreover, there wasn't the real commitment from the political side to believe that engagement with the wider community would bear any fruit.... So what we have had are [political] parties that are more focused on their leadership role and less on the engagement side.”

A stronger mechanism for consulting civic society and communities could be the basis to reform the two party dominance of the current governance structures, suggests Naomi. She explains: “We've gone from a situation where we had an inclusive process, to one which very rapidly became a four party process, as it was. We had to battle for it to be even a five party process. What emerged more recently was.... [a] two party process, literally just the DUP and Sinn Fein. And it doesn't work, because if people are locked into very fixed positions and they just repeatedly meet with each other to discuss those positions, there's no new thinking, there's no creativity, but there's also no opportunity to bring new issues or ideas to the table that could allow people to start to move their positions.”

She adds: “I think that there is an appreciation now that wasn't there over the last few years that we do need input from outside the political sphere in terms of input from the community sector, the voluntary sector, the churches and other organizations who have a genuine vested interest in society and how it works.... I think that there is an appreciation now for civic engagement and the importance of it as a way of dealing with complex and fraught issues that perhaps wasn't there before. I also think the emergence of the citizens assembly in the south and how that negotiated through what was very sensitive work around and for example, termination of pregnancy and how they would deal with that has led to a new appreciation of the fact that if civic engagement is properly structured and effort isn't just simply a replication of the political views of the parties in proportion to party size, then it has something new to bring to the table.”

Naomi stresses that the role of citizens’ assemblies is not to be an alternative system of representation, nor a decision-making body, but rather “a mechanism by which you deal with difficult issues.” She adds: “We would certainly want to see some form of civic engagement.”

In a wide-ranging conversation, Naomi goes on to say that government in Northern Ireland needs to find a way to ensure that decisions assist an agreed objective of greater integration. “You've got to look at every decision that you make in government and you've got to look at how that decision will impact on the level of segregation or integration in our society, how it will impact on the ability of people to share their communities or not.” She goes on to say that integrated education helps to create clusters of integrated housing. Naomi also praises the impact of Belfast’s Glider bus system in improving connections across the city and so breach old geographic barriers. “Public transport is crucial” in creating safe ways to improve social integration, she says.

Naomi is clear that the cost of public service segregation and duplication – she quotes studies putting the annual cost at between £750m and £1.5bn – creates incentives to bring society together. “The difficulty, of course, with that is that none of it is unlocked cheaply either. And we have been very honest about that. It is essentially an invest to save opportunity.

“But that's a very strong argument to take to Treasury when you go and make a pitch for additional funds.... If you say to them, we have a massive hole here in our budget. But if you give us the money, we can spend it in a way that will fix that hole. So in future years, the hole will be smaller. They're going to be much more interested and invested in that project than they would be otherwise. There is an opportunity to look at the costs of division in our society. Some of those are hard financial costs of duplication, of the violence and the extra policing, and everything else that we require. Some of them are missed opportunity costs, things that we can't do and miss out on because of division. It's really important that we look at those costs and see how we minimise those. One way is at a policy level and the other way is by investing to restructure what we do. We have a massive problem, for example, in the sustainability of our education system.”

Naomi goes on to say that while the Stormont House Agreement is not perfect in dealing with legacy issues, it “is possibly the last chance we're going to have to do anything that looks anything like a comprehensive process”. She does not support a statute of limitations or amnesty in relation to past events. Her priorities for dealing with the past are for transparency, adoption of the Stormont House Agreement, pensions for victims, plus investment in counselling services for people with continuing trauma and in social care for people as they deal with their injuries as they get older.

She believes that the constitutional conversations need to take place within the context of the Good Friday Agreement, and the working of its institutions. Naomi adds that the conversation “should not be just led by politicians” and should feature a major role for civil society. She opposes an early calling of a border poll.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 21 - Tina Merron Jun 28, 2019

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‘Social integration begins with integrated education and integrated housing’

For Northern Ireland to become more integrated, there has to be a greater focus on integrated schools and integrated housing, argues the chief executive of the Integrated Education Fund, Tina Merron. She was interviewed for the latest Forward Together podcast.

“I think the majority of people in Northern Ireland want a shared future and a united community,” says Tina. “We need to give civil society more of a say. We need to encourage people to speak up and especially young people. And then when we do get them to speak up, we have to listen to them.

“Integrated education has been run for the last 35 years as a kind of model for wider society and it's a model that empowers parents, communities and young people. It encourages people to speak up and encourages children to look at what unites us, as opposed to what divides us. Integrated schools are safe spaces to have these discussions - children from different traditions sit side-by-side, day-by-day, learning about each other, from each other. This experience removes any fear of other traditions, different cultures and enables them to express their identity. And this has a ripple effect.”

The basis for integrated education is not just about bringing pupils together from the two main traditions – the schools also attract children from other backgrounds. Integrated schools also aim to ensure children value themselves. “The ethos is about encouraging children to talk about themselves,” explains Tina. “It's about them being open about discussion. It's not about burying things under the carpet. It's an opportunity for them to express themselves, to have open discussions about different issues.... It's about those from all faiths and those from no faiths at all.”

Integrated schools seek to connect with local people to engage them in discussion about the future of education policy, through a programme called “Community Conversations, which empowers parents and the wider community to become involved in education, especially in area planning of education”, explains Tina.

The integrated education movement wants to work more closely with elected politicians, across the range of the spectrum. “We would encourage the politicians to go into integrated schools and have these conversations,” she explains. “It is very important I believe for young people to vote, but young people are more interested in the social issues, health, well-being and the environment, less interested in constitutional issues. But they have to feel that their voice is being heard.”

Tina adds: “We need young people to enter politics. I mean if you think about it, it's 20 years since the Good Friday Agreement. So anybody under the age of 30 is less likely to be aware of, or directly impacted by, the Troubles. So what we need is for these young people to start going into politics, to become politicians of the future.”

In many areas, integrated schools have insufficient places to meet the demand. But existing non-integrated schools can convert to become integrated. Tina explains: “Parents who want their school to be integrated can register their interest. Once that gets to 20% the board of governors of the school must then have a parental ballot for all parents of the school and they then can decide if they want to transform the school to become integrated.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

Episode 20 - John McKinney Jun 24, 2019

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‘A stronger role for civic society must be central to getting government back’

International peace negotiator John McKinney has urged the political parties to include a stronger role for civic society in a reformed structure of governance for Northern Ireland. John – a former chief executive of the Special EU Programmes Body and of Omagh District Council – was speaking in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Asked how civil society in Northern Ireland should be strengthened, John says: “I don't think we have a framework adequate to do it. I think we had an opportunity, but that opportunity was missed after the Good Friday Agreement. We had a Civic Forum that we set up, but it didn't operate. There are many reasons for that. I don't think the will was there by political parties. So there is no place for people to have a voice and that's been compounded as well by the reorganisation of local government, where we have 11 rather than 26 [councils]. So that people living away from a centre don’t have a mechanism to make any comment whatsoever.

“There's no framework where everyone can work within and that was a missed opportunity..... When we have an operating Assembly, I think it’s a good opportunity to look at the Civic Forum again. Because if people don't have somewhere to have a voice, if people don't have somewhere where we can dialogue and have a dialogue, if people don't have a place for engagement, then we are never going to go anywhere. And I think had we had this type of situation, then I think it would have been different.”

So was the Civic Forum the correct structure for civic engagement? John responds: “Well it's a structure. There's nothing magical about the Civic Forum. If you go to any country after conflict – and I have been to many, and worked in many – you need this type of structure. There’s many different models. But you do need it. Let's have a debate about what the Civic Forum should look like. Every time we talk about citizen engagement here in Northern Ireland, it's always afterwards. Consultation comes after something has been decided – it’s the wrong way round.

“Some of the countries coming out of conflict would put us in the shade.... I am thinking of Eastern Europe and Cyprus. I know that Cyprus is not united yet, but they're working at it. They have dialogue forums involving a hundred different type of organisations, economic organisations, women’s groups, everybody, but all within a framework. And that's what I like about it. Working from both sides. And they give advice to negotiators so that they can think about what it looks like after the agreement. I think that's the important thing. I don't think we ever thought about what it would look like after the Good Friday Agreement.”

John is clear that negotiations for the re-establishment of the Assembly and Executive must consider the role of civic society in the future governance of Northern Ireland and have a plan for making society more integrated. “It needs to be a wider debate,” he says. “We should be looking now at what is a shared society going to be like when the Assembly is back up and running – and I am hopeful and optimistic that it will be up again. We should be having that debate now about what it is going to look like. If you walk up any main street in Strabane, Omagh, Cookstown, and you ask someone, people are fed-up with politics.”

The solution is clear, argues John. “Like most things in life, it's about leadership. And there is a complete lack of leadership now. I am not pointing the finger at any political party. It's just a complete lack of leadership. We have a great opportunity with two parties - one from each side of the divide - working together. If both of them could come together and give some sort of leadership about this new horizon that we're going into, it must involve civic society, must set-up some sort of mechanisms for doing that. Look at what the mechanisms should be. I think that's where we have to start and the sooner the better.”

The answer, though, is not necessarily that external brokers need to be brought in to negotiate a solution. “That's a very interesting point,” concedes John. “Yes, a little, but not as much as people would think. People will think that they had this wonderful idea of bringing someone in – maybe as a key mentor as it were, maybe from South Africa or the USA... Yes it would [help].” But the essential thing is to have “buy-in” from local people, in Northern Ireland, adds John. The big problem, he suggests, is that people don’t have the belief that the current process is going to succeed. “What we need is to have a vision from the top and we need support for that vision. We need faith in that vision. And we need to feel wanted to be part of that.”

John believes that we could have the Assembly back up and running, even without an Executive being operational. “I always thought that was something that should have happened,” he says. “People say it just becomes a talking shop, but there is nothing wrong about talking if people have an idea of where that is going to take them. Unfortunately, talking for talking sake, as we all know, is a waste of time. I think [the re-establishment of the Assembly without the Executive] could be an intermediate stop that could be taken.”

The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme.

Episode 19 - Philip Gilliland Jun 21, 2019

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How Brexit changes a unionist to a united Irelander

Brexit is making some unionists re-evaluate their allegiance to the UK – and consider support for a united Ireland, says Philip Gilliland, a commercial lawyer and former president of the Londonderry Chamber of Commerce. “We've been given a gift which is called Brexit, because it's allowed those of us who are from a Protestant background to be able to talk about the heresy of the united Ireland in a way that is not heresy,” says Philip in the latest Forward Together podcast.

He continues: “In other words it's allowed us to talk about the possibility of constitutional change in a way that doesn't seem to be disloyal to our tribe, because clearly for many of us, Brexit is nuts.” Correcting himself and moderating his speech, he adds: “That sounds very disrespectful to people. I think I should really retract it. People are entitled to their view if they think it's the right thing to do. That's brilliant. Fill your boots. That's grand. But it clearly has changed the dynamic between how we deal with our neighbours in the south and how we deal with our neighbours in Britain.

“It's shone a light on the fact that the Brits don't really know or care very much about Northern Ireland. We knew that anyway. It has shone a light on that fact for those of us whose businesses are totally integrated into the Republic's economy - which mine is. It is a threat to jobs and our own livelihoods. And so we're going to vote with our economic future [in mind]. It's allowed a lot of us to question why we were unionist in the first place.

“In the past many of us who were unionist thought we were more a bit more socially liberal and there was a fear of theocracy. Today that's totally changed. We are now the theocrats. I'm not. I actually want a socially liberal world. The idea of the socially conservative moral stuff coming out of unionism is utterly abhorrent to me. And frankly, ironically, rather un-British too. We've got all sorts of reasons now to talk about the constitutional issue in a way that weren't open to us..... If it's not under the aegis of Sinn Fein, I don't really care. I'm happy with it.”

The leadership void

Philip, like most of the interviewees in the Forward Together podcasts, is strongly critical of political leadership in Northern Ireland today. “We don't have what you might call a traditional political class,” he says. “The people who might otherwise be involved in leadership in society feel they do not want to put their head above the parapet. We have to accept that there was a fear, a legacy of political violence, for a very long time. There is fear on the part of people who are afraid to say what they really feel. Fear in what is unfortunately still a tribal society, fear of breaking ranks and being accused of being disloyal to your own - which sounds very medieval. But I think that's the way that most people still think.

“So we have to encourage people to say whatever they think, to feel empowered to say what they feel about progress in society. And I can't think of any evidence recently of bully boy tactics on the part of paramilitaries in either tribe stopping people saying what they feel.... So we have to encourage people to stand up and say what they feel. There is a truism here, which is that bad things happen when good people do nothing. And it's too easy in Northern Ireland for good people to do nothing.”

Philip adds: “I do feel that some business organizations are a very good vehicle for leadership in civic society. They do allow people to emancipate themselves and say what they feel. Certainly, my experience of being a business leader is that the audience that we were speaking to, which is not just businesses who are our members in Derry, but actually all of society, want to be led. They want leadership.”

Integration - please

But Philip is equally animated about the need for social integration. He explains: “Pretty much everybody wants a shared society, except for the nationalist and unionist politicians who benefit from a segregated society.... 99% of people here get on actually really well - much better than they ever did. People on the ground are really getting on grand. Obviously it would be better if we shared our education.

“One of the keys to unlocking this is the fact that we have something like 60 or 70 thousand too many school places. And the annual budget per child is continuing to reduce. And that's just clearly nuts. So every school can't perform while we have 70,000 too many school places. Surely somebody needs to say, isn't the problem that we've got 70,000 [empty] school places? ...we have to work out what is the best way to rationalise schools. And when we rationalise schools guess what, we're going to have to actually mix a few of them, because it's the only way to do it.”

Dealing with the past

Despite being a lawyer, Philip does not believe that going through the courts is the best way to deal with the past. “I'm not a criminal lawyer,” he says, “but my sense of the administration of justice and the past is that it's just so vast and so difficult a task to apply legal justice to events of over 20 years ago, that it's just not practical.... And many of the witnesses are dead. Many of the witnesses who are still alive with the passage of time may not even know - their memories may be playing tricks, they may not even remember what they think they remember.... With a very heavy heart I can't see us going back to the administration of justice in the technical sense, in the legal and juridical sense, to deal with the past.”

What is important, argues Philip, is to address the trauma and mental ill-health caused by past events. “All of us who are over the age of probably 45 have to a lesser or greater degree suffered some degree of trauma as a result of violence,” he suggests. “Obviously some people suffered vast trauma and others only very mild peripheral trauma. But we're all a part of it. A majority of people over the age of 45 carry with them some degree of trauma about the past.

“So what is the right way to deal with that? And given the fact that the administration of justice in the technical sense is probably not going to deliver the answers, certainly not going to deliver a lot of the truth. What actually is required in my view is a policy of truth.... Jail is not the point, but what would be extremely good for the healing process is to know, why did you pull the trigger? What was it in you that said that was a good idea? And who were you just following orders [from]? Why did you follow orders? And the person who gave the orders, why did you give the order? Why do you think that was a good idea?

“I don't know many people who openly say they were perpetrators, but I imagine the toll on their own mental health must be phenomenal. Very, very few people who got involved in paramilitary activity or violence perpetrated by the state were what you might call a sociopath. Ninety nine percent of people who got involved in that sort of thing for whatever reason believed they were doing the right thing. But a part of that was the dehumanization of the person who was going to be your victim and now that we're actually talking to each other again it must be quite challenging for the perpetrator to find a humanized person associated with their...

Episode 18 - Mairtin O'Muilleoir Jun 17, 2019

FULL EPISODE NOTES

‘Stephen Nolan needs to find the right balance – and not make angry people angrier’

Stephen Nolan needs to find the right balance between allowing people to express their emotions, without making angry people even angrier. The plea was made in the latest Forward Together podcast by Sinn Fein MLA and former finance minister Máirtín Ó Muilleoir.

“In this often divided society, I think the tone and timbre of the debate has to be respectful,” says Máirtín. “We have to find ways of not feeding the ratings monster, not sectarianising a discussion, which has huge sectarian elements in it. We have to find ways not always to try and have a race to the bottom in terms of the dialogue, or to turn it into a rant.

“I have huge respect for Stephen Nolan. I think he is the pre-eminent broadcaster on the island, certainly in the north of the island. But as he knows, there are a lot of angry people out there and he has to find a way to get the balance between making those people angrier and instead of that trying to find a way for angry people to express, to emote, to vent, if necessary. But what is the purpose of us as a society in trying to start this discussion if all we're going to do is poke people in the eye with a stick, or make people even more polarized?”

Máirtín urges us all to change the way we discuss politics and society. “I think we could start by listening,” he says. “It is a truism that you learn more by listening than by talking. I don't have all the answers, but I have been, for 30 years of political activity, a big believer in building community - the phrase I use for developing and working for the common good. That has to be to the fore in our minds if we are going to adopt any strategies - whether around economic development, around providing adequate health services for our people, focusing on education, building healthy prosperous societies. We have to be focused on the common good.”

One of the main challenges is that close under the surface of Northern Ireland society is suffering and anger. Máirtín recalls: “Being mayor [of Belfast] was easy until someone mentioned the past. Once the past was mentioned it was almost as if you entered a different, parallel universe, where the tone of the debate sharpened, where an unwillingness to entertain any other view was to the fore, that the bitterness oozed out on all sides. As Seamus Heaney said, people get hurt and get hard. So if we are going to try find ways to build a stronger civic society we are going to have to find ways to engage in a frank debate and find a safe space to do that.”

He continues: “We have to give leadership. And anyone who engages in partisan and provocative politics and calls it civic leadership is not going to do us justice. So if you want to enter the public square and have 90% of the debate on [what should be] the present [instead] focused on the past, it's not going to work. If you're going to refuse to listen, if you are going to refuse to turn up – and I’ve been to a series of events recently where the DUP refused to turn up - it’s not going to work.... every voice has to be heard.”

But, asked if this included what might be termed dissident republican and loyalist representatives, Máirtín responds: “There also have to be ground rules. You can't come in and talk at the table with everyone else, but then go outside and be selling the drugs which are damaging this Belfast community.... For me, one of the reasons the government collapsed was that the DUP were unwilling to have all voices heard.”

He continues: “We have to have policies from the top which exemplify a shared approach and inclusive approach. You can’t be a leader, but say we believe our partners in government are rogues and renegades. You can't be a leader and say look I believe everyone should be at the table. But by the way, by my actions I'm making sure that money only goes to certain people and not other people. You can't say one thing and then your actions portray another thing and that is why, in my view, the government collapsed... There is a problem in this society of being heard. We talk past each other... We don’t hear each other.”

Interviewed before the latest round of political talks, Máirtín laments the loss of contacts between representatives of the different parties. “Not having an Assembly is a real hindrance in terms of building relations among political leaders because you don't see people in the corridors, or in the cafes, or whatever.... So we are in a worse place than we were two years ago. There is less dialogue and interaction... All the bridges are down. If you asked me now to ring a DUP MLA, well first of all I don’t know half of them, because they have been elected after the last Assembly election and I’ve never met them.... I don’t have a DUP MLA I could talk to. That wouldn’t have been true in the last Assembly and that wouldn’t be normal politics.... So the bridges are down more than two years ago. We are in a worse place.”

Máirtín believes that the Stormont House Agreement provided the basis for dealing with the past, but that progress has since been reversed – for which he blames the DUP. “We are at loggerheads.” He is clear that the correct approach is to accept that it will never be possible to agree about the past, but it is possible to agree on how to build the future. He adds that “we're going to have to find a way to deal with the terrible hurt that we have suffered. And I think the Stormont House-related mechanisms [provide that]. But it is it is a matter of the heart.”

He adds: “I do think I have to make a statement that the war is over. And for me that means that the slate is clean. People are absolutely entitled to deal with the past, hopefully by those mechanisms we have agreed. But for me if you were going to continue to fight the battles of the past today - and I think the DUP did bring that into government, they thought we're still at war - if you’re going to bring the war mindset into government, then that’s not going to work, we are not going to make progress.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council. The podcasts are also available on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and Spotify.

Episode 17 - Conal McFeely Jun 14, 2019

‘Let’s not repeat the mistakes of the past! (But we are.)’

Northern Ireland is “a society that is still emerging from conflict”, warns Conal McFeely, chief executive of one of Northern Ireland’s largest and most successful not-for-profit businesses, the Rathmor Centre[i] in Derry. He was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“We must collectively not allow ourselves to make the same political mistakes - and the failure of governance - that we've done in the past,” Conal says, before adding “but sadly I believe that we are at the moment”.

Conal continues: “One has to look at the history that gave rise to the conflict here. It was the impact of partition and the fact that we had a system of governance that clearly denied people equality of opportunity and that in itself gave birth to the civil rights movement.” The priority remains, he argues, “creating an equal society”. He goes on: “Clearly if that had been dealt with at the beginning we might not have had the conflict. I see that as a failure of governance.”

According to Conal, continuing weak governance is evidenced by the lack of focus on human rights. He says: “I would argue that we do need a proper system of political governance. And I think that system of governance needs to be rooted within a human rights framework... I think that all genuine democracies should be rooted within the human rights framework. And I think we need to construct that. To all intents and purposes that is contained within the Good Friday Agreement. I think that the infrastructure is there. The problem is it just hasn't been implemented and delivered.”

One of the rights being overlooked relates to economic and social wellbeing, Conal argues. “We need to address the issues of inequality in terms of economic investment, targeting the most marginalized communities within our societies, working class communities, be they loyalist or republican, nationalist or unionist,” he says.

But, Conal adds, there must be a recognition that Northern Ireland is more than unionist and nationalist. “We now live in a society which is much more diverse than that. I think we need to be in a society where everyone holds the respect of each other, irrespective of their political background, their sexual orientation, their ethnic background. We now live in a multicultural society. And we need to reflect that in terms of a wider civic society. When people talk about civic society at the moment they tend to talk about nationalism and unionism.”

A broader objective needs to be “social transformation,” says Conal. “I would view social transformation as something that needs to look at the economic, cultural, educational, environmental needs of society. Those things are all part and parcel of social transformation.”

He adds: “If you look at the moment where people feel they've been left behind, it's in those communities that have suffered most as a result of the conflict. It tends to be in working class areas.... That's where the highest levels of poverty exist. That's where the highest levels of economic inactivity take place.... There is a sizeable section of our communities who feel left off the agenda. [We need] effective dialogue initiatives, where we treat everybody with respect, without demonizing or marginalizing them, and engaging with them.... My view is that you need to have policies where you're creating locally based initiatives, social economy initiatives, co-operatives and so on, where people see they have a chance to be involved.”

Conal adds a warning that Brexit is a threat to the peace process. “Clearly that process at the moment has been stalled because of Brexit. You know that it's not the fault of the people in Ireland. It's not the people in the Northern Ireland who are to blame for that. People have made a decision in Britain that they want to leave the European Union. That has serious consequences for our peace process.”

[i] The Rathmor Centre is a community business providing retail, office and commercial units, based in the Creggan area of Derry. About 300 people work in the complex.

Episode 16 - John Kyle Jun 10, 2019

‘We have lost ground in the past 20 years’, claims PUP’s John Kyle

Society in Northern Ireland has gone backwards since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, argues the former leader of the Progressive Unionist Party John Kyle, who is also a GP in Belfast. “In my view we have lost ground in the past 20 years,” he says in the latest Forward Together podcast.

John believes that we need to review the progress that was achieved and consider why it has lost momentum. He suggests three factors enabled the conflict to end. “The first important element was that violence was a flawed strategy and it didn't achieve its ends,” he reflects. “People got to a certain age where they thought - look, we have suffered, we have paid a price. Do we want our children to have to go through this? Sure as hell we don't.

“I think the second factor was that the churches got their act together. [They ended] the preaching against one another and calling one another anathema. I think that suddenly changed and the churches realized we have a responsibility to love our brother. While we may disagree strongly and vigorously with them, we have got to show respect and love to our brother.... There was a remarkable coming together between the Catholic and Protestant traditions, not involving everyone, but involving a vast majority of influential and leading people and many congregations.... So the theological justification was suddenly removed from the conflict.

The third aspect, particularly within the middle classes in Northern Ireland, was that you were able to travel more... So they were living in this more mobile society, a more cosmopolitan, more international society. They hadn't realized there was a bigger perspective to the world.... Within the middle classes that ameliorated a lot of the animosity between the two traditions. And we made progress with the Good Friday Agreement. People had a sense of hope. They said, hey we can do this. And there was a real sense of this has been a monumental step forward, this opens up new opportunities. Let's build on this and let's capitalize on this.

“But some things happened that undermined trust. There still was a huge reservoir of hurt. People had been damaged and suffered and that reservoir of suffering was not really being properly addressed.”

Since then, argues John, politicians in the main parties have exploited those community differences and continued hurt for party political benefits – to increase their votes. “I think our politicians need to man up to that and recognize that they have to bear a significant responsibility for what we have lost in the past 10 to 15 years.” John adds that civic society is giving the powerful politicians a message – which they ignore. “Politicians do seem to be cocooned when it comes to responding to what broader civil society is saying, because it seems to me that there is a huge disparity between what people say they would like to see happen and what politicians are actually doing.”

John, a loyalist politician, argues that for Northern Ireland’s system to change for the better “people need to have the courage to vote outside of their traditional patterns of voting, particularly in elections where the constitutional issue is not at stake or is not fundamental to what they're doing. I think we need to realize that we need a broader political representation of people who feel exasperated with the politicians who currently hold power, yet they tend to go back and still vote for them at the next election.”

Working class loyalist and unionist areas are suffering from both neglect and the impact of urban planning, John believes. “Urban planning broke up a lot of the very densely knit communities,” he says, causing a breach of the cohesion and sense of community that used to predominate. “I mean we had terrible housing. When I was a young GP working in east Belfast, some of the housing was appalling. So we needed to do something about that. But in removing that and then building new housing stock, that sense of community was fundamentally undermined.”

John believes that to make progress it is essential that we see the personal, not just collective groups. In particular, we need to recognise the individual pain of victims of The Troubles. “Colin Davidson has done some remarkable work in terms of victims and survivors and one of the things that Colin says is that most of the people that he's worked with, what they're looking for is an acknowledgement of their suffering.... I think we have failed to acknowledge the suffering and loss.... What Colin Davidson has done is to show the personal face of the pain of The troubles and, yes, the physically injured bodies.”

That same point about dealing with people as people, not just as representatives, can help us make progress in the political logjam, John suggests. “My understanding is that during the negotiations behind the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement, one of the first things George Mitchell did was to take the politicians out of the current situation here, take them away and enable them to relate to each other as human beings. I think we have a huge need still to do that - to relate to one another as human beings, not as political opponents, or as the other side, or as the enemy, or as the cause of my suffering. We need to find new contexts to enable people to talk together.”

Episode 15 - Maureen Hetherington Jun 07, 2019

‘If we tell people the cost of segregation, they will support greater integration’

If people are told the financial cost of segregation and service duplication, there will be much greater support for social integration, says community worker Maureen Hetherington. Maureen is director of The Junction community and peace-building centre in Derry-Londonderry and was interviewed in the latest ‘Forward Together’ podcast.

“I have no doubt that integrated education is absolutely fundamental to getting people to know each other, to engage with each other,” stresses Maureen. “The difficulty there is that we don't have the integrated society. So we absolutely need to start the social housing, that has to be cross-community and it has to be mixed. We could highlight the cost of segregation.

“When we get down to the bread and butter issues, the majority of people out there want the best for the children, their family, they want to keep surviving, they want a quality of life. This cost of segregation, if people realise, if we look at that and redistribute the money to where it is really needed, then I think that people would be up for a more integrated society. The majority of people do want change. They do want a better future. But it's taking that leap of faith, but also taking the steps towards that... exposing the segregation for what it is - the systems and structures that keep people separated - and finding ways of bringing them together.” Maureen believes that the other key element of integrating society is for people to live in genuinely shared communities.

Maureen is a strong believer in civil society alongside politics that works – but believes, for the time being, that the politics are broken. “I think that in any society we need a top down and a bottom up approach,” she says. “Unfortunately not having anything at the top at the moment, it relies very heavily on the bottom up approach. I think that the citizens’ assembly is a very good idea and it's very good to have people actually having a civil, mature conversation that draws out the common sense and the conclusions – the greater good - then you can actually reach a consensus and then you realize everything is about compromise.

“But unfortunately whenever we have politicians who have absolutely no interest in dealing with the common or greater good, and everything is based on the self-interest of the party, it becomes stymied and it becomes limited. I worry all the time that we raise expectations in the community and then when nothing comes of it, people get very disillusioned, disheartened and they disengage. And part of that is that they continually try to make progress. They go to the workshops, they'll do what they can, but then ultimately it’s stymied or stopped or you know it comes to an abrupt end and progress can’t be seen. People have to be in it for the long-term.”

In this latest podcast interview, Maureen warns on the mental health impact of social media on young people, but also the risks of isolation for the elderly who are not computer literate. In a wide-ranging conversation, Maureen argues that society cannot have real peace until patriarchal structures are dismantled and calls for “gender justice”. “That's a huge challenge,” she stresses.

Maureen urges Northern Ireland society to move on from the past and avoid using history in ways that prevent us from making progress.

Episode 14 - Simon Hamilton Jun 03, 2019

‘Citizen’s Assembly could help progress with health reform’

The adoption of a citizens’ assembly could assist with making progress with reform of the health service in Northern Ireland, says Simon Hamilton – a DUP MLA and former health and finance minister. He was interviewed in the latest ‘Forward Together’ podcast.

Speaking about the use of citizens’ assemblies in the Republic of Ireland, Simon explains: “They shouldn't be dismissed instantly just because you didn't like what some other jurisdiction was doing with them.” He adds: “I know from my time in the health department that there are a range of issues where you think you know the answer. But executing them in a way in which the public understand, get it and get on board with it is a different matter entirely.” For example with health reform, where service provision might be moved or merged to improve quality and outcomes, yet the public will perceive that they have lost a local service.

With a citizens’ assembly, a randomly selected group of people would listen to experts to brief them so that they have an in-depth understanding of a problem. In those circumstances, the public might have trust in the experts to be guided towards the best solution. Simon explains: “There is a space clearly for civic society to play a role... helping politicians to shape the common good.” However, Simon does not believe the former Civic Forum was the right approach to achieve this. “It wasn't representative. And nobody really I think understood what its purpose was.... It wasn't a check on the Assembly, it couldn't be a check on the Assembly. I think there are far, far better ways in which that voice can be heard.”

Simon adds that he is concerned at how at present civil society presents its views. He believes that too often civic voices tend to say “a plague on all your houses”, rather than being more specific in allocating blame and advocating solutions.

Northern Ireland needs to reflect on the scale of the challenge it is dealing with in moving on from conflict and division, Simon suggests. “We probably haven't taken collectively the time to sit back and say we believe this is a 50 year job probably here. Nobody wants to hear that it's a 50 year job, but maybe it’s at that end of the scale. So this is a long-term job.”

What is more, it is an inter-generational challenge. “I think we were all a bit naive” in not recognising the attitudes and beliefs that led to the conflict would not be passed down the generations, he says. It had been assumed “that people who lived through it and experienced that and perhaps were affected were victims or survivors themselves, [as they] got older and passed away that the problem would pass away almost with them. And that hasn't. And it is being passed on.” What has been left behind with the next generation instead has, for some, been a “romanticism” about the Troubles, he argues.

The challenge of restoring devolution is made more difficult, too, by the lack of contact between members of different political parties. When Stormont is functioning, MLAs of various parties bump into each other and talk. Without Stormont, that does not happen. “There's not even a place where politicians from across the country come and sit and have any sort of a debate,” says Simon. “And I'm pretty sure that if we were back in business there would be occasional debates and discussions around the constitutional issue. I always think it was a sign of the tone of the progress that we were making that there were debates around the constitutional question.

“Brexit has obviously brought the issue onto the agenda in terms of the constitutional question, but not in a positive way. Clearly atmosphere and context is important, but you're not going to get a polite, civilized conversation whenever politics itself is not polite and civilized at this moment in time. So I think for a whole host of reasons we need devolution back.”

Episode 13 - Jim Dornan May 31, 2019

There needs to be an all-island, integrated, health service, and its creation should not be dependent upon the agreement or timing of a united Ireland, argues Professor Jim Dornan – one of the architects of existing cross-border co-operation in health services. Jim was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“In many ways Ireland is a Goldilocks sized country for health provision,” he explains. “We can cherry pick the best of health provision throughout the world and let's introduce it to Ireland. The health service is a wonderful concept.” But to protect NHS-type health service provision, it is important for individuals and society collectively to accept more responsibility for their own good health, argues Jim.

“The two health services are increasingly working together and they're full of men and women with vision. Unfortunately they also have some dry wood amongst them. But we're moving forward and young, well educated managers are coming through who really do understand how medicine has to evolve with the population. So I'm positive about health going forward, but I would like to see everybody having equal access to the same health standards.”

Jim is particularly concerned that regions away from Belfast and Dublin, particularly in the west, have less access to health services. He stresses: “I think health is a perfect example of something that we can get on with now, rather than rather than wait for a potential possible change in the dispensation.”

Like many other people interviewed in the Forward Together podcasts, Jim is persuaded that the Eames-Bradley report offers the best way to deal with the past. “I would encourage the powers that be to brush down Eames-Bradley,” he says. “I think Eames-Bradley was a wonderful document and sadly for whatever reasons some parts of the media, who were quite powerful, focused on the compensation part and that became the whole news item.... I think if it was properly done, Eames-Bradley has got a lot of life left in it and should be dusted down.”

Jim refers to his preference for “a new Union of Ireland”, but is strongly opposed to an immediate border poll. “For a start, everybody must learn how to stop grabbing a microphone,” he says. “I mean starting to call for it now honestly is just not very savvy. It's not very politically savvy and it's only annoying people. I'd say it's a fact that there's going to be a border referendum. I want to be voting on facts. So we need to have a conversation to see what are the best ways forward. And there is so much happening at the moment.”

He adds: “I'm not supportive of calling for a border referendum poll at this stage although I totally accept and in fact relish one in the future, but one thing it has shown is that nobody is prepared.”

Discussion on the future must, suggests Jim, be based on “proper facts rather than something written on the side of a bus.” He continues: “Then when we're ready, then let's have a quiet sensible adult vote on the subject. I have to say that to me I don't mind sticking my neck out saying that I would love to see the border disappear, because it just is divisive. But whether the border or any new dispensation would just be around our shoreline or might include other areas, I think that is really up for grabs. I wouldn't have said it five years ago, but I'm saying it now.”

Episode 12 - Fergus O'Dowd May 27, 2019

Justice for victims is achieved by “giving them a society that works”, says Fergus O'Dowd TD of Fine Gael. He is a member of the Oireachtas Good Friday Implementation Committee and was appointed earlier this year by Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to lead a new Fine Gael group to develop links with Northern Ireland. He is interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Discussing how to deal with events of the past, Fergus stresses that victims and their relatives must be treated fairly, and criticises recent remarks by Northern Ireland secretary Karen Bradley in the House of Commons about Bloody Sunday. She initially said that killings by security forces were "not crimes", before rowing back on the remarks.

“Some of the commentary wasn't helpful,” Fergus says, adding, “the Secretary of State wasn't helpful.” The risk, he says, is that “you have a society where you get law, but you don't get justice.” The best approach, he suggests, is “you give them justice by giving them a society that works, an administration that respects all sides”.

Fergus urges Sinn Fein to take their seats in the House of Commons in order to help protect the whole of Ireland from the impact of Brexit. “The nationalist voice has not been heard in the UK Parliament. I think it is hugely important that it would be and that would help. But obviously it probably won't happen.... This decision is about all of Ireland.... This is a historic, huge, decision, which will have ramifications probably for hundreds of years for all we know.”

Fergus stresses that he is an Irish nationalist, who believes in achieving a united Ireland by consent. But he believes this should not create a bar to engaging with, and working with, unionists in the north. He makes a plea to the DUP – to engage with politicians in the Republic. “I've met some unionists, not too many of the DUP. I would like to engage more. I need to understand their position better. I've met moderate unionists and I understand their position absolutely and respect it. I've met moderate nationalists. I need to meet with the majority party in the north, which is the DUP.”

He is clear that citizens’ assemblies were of enormous importance in enabling southern politics to deal with the challenging decisions around same sex marriage and abortion. Fergus believes that citizens’ assemblies could do the same with constitutional issues in the north, including, at some point, a possible united Ireland.

Fergus stresses that what has happened in recent years has meant “we've become a completely different society”. He is a TD in County Louth, based in Drogheda, a town which is noticeably more multi-cultural than anywhere in Northern Ireland. He says that at one recent meeting, those present had a mix of 32 different first languages. Yet Drogheda and the Republic seem to be more successful than Northern Ireland at integrating communities.

One means of supporting integration has been by giving parents the choice of the status of new schools. “It's a huge change and it's very welcome because the views of the parents are the ones that count... If you continue to have separate schools for separate religions, I don't think that's a good thing, personally. I think that integration means that you go to the same school, the school that is nearest.”

Episode 11 - Alexandra De La Torre May 24, 2019

‘Women lose out in Northern Ireland’

More must be done in Northern Ireland to make society more open for women and for minorities, argues Alexandra De La Torre, the co-ordinator for NICVA of the Next Chapter, which has the objective of strengthening women's engagement in civic society and participation in society. Alexandra is interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“I think it is fundamental for civil society to create spaces where there is room for everyone,” she says. “Spaces that are inclusive for women, inclusive for minorities, inclusive for people with disabilities or sexual orientation. But it is also fundamental to put away the resources to access these opportunities. Civil society in Northern Ireland played a fundamental role in peace-building. I see at the moment the challenges that Brexit is bringing to Northern Ireland, which are going to be huge and civil society will have its own fundamental role to play in this.”

Alexandra adds: “The objectives of the Next Chapter include getting more women onto boards, to get them into more senior positions across society, and in the business sector as well, and in politics.”

While women were central to the peace-building role, the fear is that women’s role may now be less central. Alexandra explains: “What the Next Chapter is doing as a project is to try to empower women and bring these voices back to public life and [create] genuine spaces for women to participate in public life.”

Although many people would say that women hold very strong positions as leaders of political parties in Northern Ireland, Alexandra argues that far too many women are marginalised and there are too few women MLAs. “Thirty years on from the Good Friday Agreement we still don't see how women are getting the benefit of that agreement, even though [their involvement] in civil society has been great. At this stage, women need more recognition.... Yes we have two women on the top of politics, but the question is, are these two women representative - are they representing all women? Or are they representing their male-orientated politics of their political parties? These are two very different things.”

Alexandra points out that many of the things most important for women are not delivered in Northern Ireland today. “We don't have a child care strategy policy.... So it's not enough. [We need] structural changes to our society that can assist women to have a stronger role in civic society, but can also actually strengthen civil society itself.

If you look at the statistics, basically wherever you go to the senior leadership positions in civil society organisations, the majority are held by women which is great. We also need women in all spaces of decision-making.”

Episode 10 - Clare Bailey May 20, 2019

‘We have a political process instead of a peace process’

Northern Ireland has “had a political process at the cost of a peace process”, believes Clare Bailey MLA, the leader of the Green Party in Northern Ireland. She is highly critical of the limited progress since the Good Friday Agreement 21 years ago and the lack of real social integration. She was speaking in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Clare questions who has benefited since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement.

“Certainly within the working class and the most deprived areas in Northern Ireland and those communities - they certainly haven't seen a pay-off,” she argues. Clare references the lack of government, squeezed budgets, welfare reform, “soaring levels of poverty” and “more people dying by suicide since the signing of the Good Friday agreement than were ever killed in the troubles. We have intergenerational trauma.”

She lists her frustrations with lack of progress. “We have more peace walls in Northern Ireland now than we did during the conflict. Our education system hasn't moved on. Back in 1981, I was one of the first 28 pupils to attend Lagan [integrated] College when it first opened. There were protests at the door of the school. Our buses were smashed and we were identified by our uniforms.... But yet here we are almost 38 years later with only 65 of our schools both primary and post primary that are under the integrated banner.... Over the past 20 years I've seen little attempt at integration.”

Clare adds that it is wrong to believe that we should wait for politics and the economy to improve before civic society is strengthened. “We need to hear a civic voice,” she urges, adding that “citizens’ assemblies [are] an excellent model to start engaging with.”

She makes clear her frustration with elements of mainstream British and Northern Irish politics. “We have hardline Brexiteers who are pushing for a no deal Brexit and openly admitting that they'd never even read the Good Friday Agreement. And nationalist parties whose raison d'être has always been about a united Ireland, they’ve reached this point and [they are] still not willing to put their ideas on the table of what that is.”

This context, she suggests, is dangerous. “We are still a deeply traumatised society. It doesn't take much to just scratch those open wounds. People are still living with fear and it's getting worse because we're not dealing with it.”

As far as Clare is concerned, the Assembly – when functioning – is itself an expression of sectarian division. “I have to designate myself as either a nationalist or a unionist. And if I don't agree with either, or don't identify as either, I'm automatically designated as ‘an other’. I designated myself as a feminist when I was first elected and the computer does not compute. So I am automatically an ‘other’. So therefore my ‘other’ vote in some Assembly debates is lesser than that of a nationalist or a unionist. And it's in those types of situations I mean by saying sectarianism has been written into the heart of the institutions.”

As far as the future is concerned, the challenge of climate change is the most important issue. “If we want a united Ireland, we need to talk about transformation and we need to be in no doubt whatsoever that a new Ireland is coming. And she's on her way and she's called climate chaos. We've been given 12 years to the point of no return from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change – when, if we do not radically change our lifestyles, our behaviours, then the damage that will be done will be irreparable. So we will be forced into renegotiating who we are on this island. How do we get along. What our relationships are. But more importantly, how we do business together. So I am in no doubt that a new Ireland is coming, but I don't believe that it's the one many people are thinking of.”

Episode 9 - Peter Sheridan May 17, 2019

In praise of Citizens’ Assemblies – Peter Sheridan believes they can provide solutions to some of Northern Ireland’s most intractable problems

Citizens’ assemblies should be widely used to address the problems faced by communities across Northern Ireland, argues Peter Sheridan, the chief executive of Co-operation Ireland. He was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“It works in Canada, it works in Iceland: there are examples all around the world.” Speaking before the murder of Lyra McKee, Peter continues: “You pick an area and pick a problem, you randomly select a group of people from the electoral register and depending on the size of the problem it could be 30, 40, 50, 60 people. So it could be an area the size of Creggan on the west bank of the Foyle. You identify a particular problem. So let's take as an example that may be in an area, how do we stop young people joining paramilitaries? And you bring in expert opinion – who might say well, for example, in Colombia here's how they went about stopping young people joining groups.”

Having heard from experts, the random assembly of residents would then deliberate on how to address the problem. The sessions would be facilitated, supported and reported. “That could be over a period of two weekends, two days each weekend, where that group of 50 would really engage in the conversation and they'd be remunerated for being present.”

Peter adds: “I don't think there are any problems that are off limits that the public could not have a view on.... Actually some of the best thinking and ideas come from people who live in the community.” In many cases, he explains, the process will involve statutory agencies saying what they are doing – and the results may be strongly critical of those same agencies. “But they shouldn't see it as a threat. This is meant to help and support them to improve the way of life for people in particular communities.”

One of Peter’s frequent comments is that the discussion about rights should be reversed. He explains: “One of the frustrations that I have is that our political system here is such that even when they're in a shared executive they all champion their own side's rights.... I would want to know from the DUP - what is it you're going to do that protects the Catholic, nationalist, republican traditions, cultures and identity? And then Sinn Fein, what is it you're able to do that protects the Protestant, unionist, loyalist traditions, their culture and their identity? [We need to] get people wanting to protect their neighbours’ rights.

“I've always had the view that one of the weaknesses of the Good Friday Agreement was that we managed to get all of the political parties in Northern Ireland to concede to the British government of Tony Blair. We managed to get them all to concede to the Irish government of Bertie Ahern. And we managed to get them all to concede to the American government of Bill Clinton. But what they didn't do was concede to each other.”

He adds: “I want to know what you're going to do to protect the other community. And literally that's where you change the conversation to.”

But Peter, a former senior RUC officer, also argues that the history of The Troubles should not be ignored, yet needs to be handled with enormous care to avoid re-traumatising victims and survivors. He says that he had conversations with Martin McGuinness and others in which he said that each had to accept they had different stories and understanding of the past. Each has to accept the other has their own version of what happened and why. “I think once you can get people to think in that way, then you have the possibility of being able to look to the future. Because the way we are doing it now is that we're going back over 40 years trying to decide who's right and who's wrong in every instance. And we will still not agree.”

Peter adds that any referendum on a united Ireland has to learn from the mistakes of the Brexit referendum. “The first thing I think we have to do is to not do what we're doing at the minute, which is saying we have to have a border poll. No, to me it's a bit like what people did in Brexit. Let's have a border poll to say yes or no. And then we'll decide. We have not had the conversation to say what might this means for the Irish flag, for the Irish national anthem, all of the other arrangements in terms of policing, environment, health, education. You can’t make a quick decision on something as complex as that.”

Episode 8 - Claire Sugden May 13, 2019

‘Political leadership is key to making progress’

Developing mutual respect, strengthening relationships and building proper political leadership are the basis for making progress in Northern Ireland, believes independent unionist MLA – and former justice minister - Claire Sugden. She is interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Talking before the announcement of renewed political talks, Claire expressed her frustration at the lack of a functioning Assembly and Executive. “We've had a situation here at Stormont where we haven't had a sitting assembly for two years. And I think the anger amongst the general public is palpable. You know I feel it and see it every day. I'm a great believer that leadership is about bringing people with you. And I don't think politics is doing that right now.

“I actually think good politics and good governance is what's missing from our puzzle. You know that the past 20 years really were about establishing the institutions, establishing the peace and ensuring that we get to a place where we can pull together. I think now is the time where we actually work together and we start delivering for the people of Northern Ireland. And I think when we do that we might start to see that people realize we're all the same despite our backgrounds.... You know there's not one person in Northern Ireland that wouldn't tell me that they just want to be helped and they want the country to move forward. How we get there is leadership and good governance.”

And Claire is one of those politicians who is genuinely keen to open up the political system to bring in more non-political voices to improve engagement and strengthen democracy. “I think the work that's being done on a civic forum or a civic assembly, I think is really positive,” she says. “I think people do need to be engaged because too often I suppose politicians take it for granted that they know what the public [wants]... So yes there needs to be a mechanism to suggest what public opinion really is - a safe space if you like for politicians to engage in a debate....

“I think it's sad that post-Good Friday Agreement that the Civic Forum didn't come to anything. I think it was perhaps more [about] it's makeup rather than the intention and the idea around it. It wasn't genuinely civic. It was perhaps people who already had a voice within the political system and that's what any future sort of civic forum or civic platform needs to be about - it needs to be about people on the ground, it needs to be about the people who actually are suffering from the fact that we don't have an assembly.... The people we need to get here are the people who are not engaged...

And to me that's leadership. You're bringing people along with you by having them in the room having the conversation.

“My experience with the political parties - and I certainly don't speak for any of them - is that they do not represent the best interests of all the people of Northern Ireland. Every MLA will tell you that it's not just unionists who come into their office or nationalists, it's people from all backgrounds. Day-to-day, it's actually our job to represent and advocate for their best interests, on their behalf.”

Claire argues that dividing lines between the political parties get in the way of making Northern Ireland a better place. “Where we seem to get stuck is on party policy,” she says. “I very much see my job is about improving public services for the people of Northern Ireland. And I think sometimes the higher level stuff gets in the way.” She adds that “the past is one of the things that's getting in the way of us dealing with the present and the future”.

She continues: “How can we even have a conversation towards uniting an island when we can't unite ourselves within a part of the island?” That process of healing our society includes being open and honest about the past – and trying to understand why people from different backgrounds did the things they did. “I think the greatest skill that any politician can have is empathy,” she says. “You don't have to agree. And I think sometimes we misunderstand empathy with agreement. It is important to know where people come from.”

It also involves having a better understanding of what did happen. Claire stresses: “One thing that really struck me in my work as minister of justice when I was meeting a lot of victims and their families was the trauma from what had happened. Trauma is such a big part of conflict. And I think it's appalling that as a post-conflict society we have never even considered how we dealt with our trauma and still aren't 20 years later. But that trauma seems to get passed from generation to generation.

“If we are genuinely going to reconcile, we have to break that trauma at some point. I met a grandmother who sadly then passed away. But it's their grandson who's sitting in the room, talking to me about the injustices of their relative being taken during the Troubles and the fact that they haven't got answers and that the government hasn't upheld their responsibility around that. So I don't think it's enough to say time will be a healer, because I think trauma, particularly in a post-conflict situation, is going to get passed from generation to generation to generation. If we don't address it then we will be still facing the same issues in 50 years time.”

Claire adds: “I think there are current politicians who are suffering from their own traumas of the past. I think trauma is an inevitable part of life, whether it's in Northern Ireland because of post-conflict, or whether it's because someone close to you passed away when you were 16. But it's how we deal with that - and that's how we move forward. And I don't think we've been given the tools, or even the knowledge, to be able to do that.”

Episode 7 - Alan McBride May 10, 2019

“A leadership vacuum” that must be filled

A leadership vacuum is causing harm across Northern Ireland, including in loyalist areas, and contributes to the lure of paramilitaries, warns victims’ campaigner

Alan McBride in the latest Forward Together podcast. “I think we probably need to put a lot of investment into areas like East Belfast and the Shankill and other areas to try and improve the leadership potential,” he argues.

Alan adds: “As a grassroots working class Protestant loyalist myself, I have a real feel for that community. I don't always think that they're best served by the sort of spokespeople that they put forward at this moment. So I would like to see other voices - voices that perhaps we haven't heard yet.”

He is particularly critical of DUP representation of loyalist areas. “I don't think the DUP represent loyalist communities. I think they use loyalist communities for votes, but I don't think they really deliver for loyalist communities. You'll see that certainly where I live and in other areas. I think there's absolutely room for improvement there.

“If you look at some of the reports that have come out in the last few years around educational achievement amongst working class loyalists boys - I think there's a lot of issues out there that are coming out of that. And I think there needs to be a big cash injection initially... taking some of those young people and developing leadership skills and developing them.”

Alan is a strong critic of the education system, which he believes fails children from working class backgrounds. “I've heard people champion our education system and say that it's the best in Europe, the best in the world and all. For some people that's true. But not for a lot of people... We have to absolutely encourage young people, to give them proper role models to aspire to. And I think that in some loyalist communities there is a real shortage of them, because the role models of some of those communities are the local UDA brigadier or whatever. I think those are really bad role models.

“There needs to be somebody within those communities that can actually stand up and who people can maybe follow and inspire and move on. But if they don't do that, and if that doesn't happen, then we're just looking at generation after generation of educational failure, of unemployment, of poverty, of sectarianism, of all the things that plague working class loyalist communities.”

Alan was a member of the former Civic Forum. “I think that it was a great idea. I think it had great potential. I don't think that it was particularly well run or well managed. But I would like to see that idea come back again and I would also like for our politicians not to see any form of civic forum or people's parliament, call it what you will, as a threat to democracy. It's absolutely not. It's an invaluable resource for them, even as a sounding board to get some ideas to have a proper interface with the community, with civil society. And so I would like to see something like that happen again.”

As a victims’ campaigner whose wife and father-in-law were killed in the Troubles, Alan has thought much about how best to deal with the past and legacy issues. “My own preferred way forward would have been to go back to the Consultative Group on the Past report, the Robin Eames and Denis Bradley report. I think it was the best [proposal] and I think every time we've gone for consultation since then we have come back with something which is considerably less than what we had before. I think that the Stormont House Agreement, and the legacy aspects of that, is the last time we can go back to the people... You can't just collectively forget about the past. You have to have some kind of a mechanism to be able to hang the past on. It's happened in South Africa, the Balkans, Chile, Argentina and Rwanda. All of the countries that have had conflict have had something where they were able to hang their past on. What we need in Northern Ireland is one that is tailor-made for our situation. I absolutely believe that what we have with the Stormont House Agreement is tailor-made for our situation... I think that we need to learn from our past.”

Alan believes that the constitutional question needs to be in the open, with an honest discussion about the options and their implications. “I think that what has to happen is that those that are proposing an ‘All Ireland’ have to demonstrate and show people in the unionist community what life would be like living in Northern Ireland. My favoured option is to stay within the union, but only if it's working financially and economically and is equal. I suppose like many people I'm more concerned with my quality of life than I am with the kind of flag that flies... I think that our lot is better in the union, but that was a union that was part of a wider Europe.”

Episode 6 - Mark Durkan May 06, 2019

‘Let’s look again at the Eames-Bradley approach to the past’

The Eames-Bradley report was the best approach yet to how Northern Ireland should deal with Troubles legacy issues, argues Mark Durkan. The former SDLP leader and deputy first minister was interviewed for the ‘Forward Together’ podcast series immediately before declaring his candidacy for Fine Gael for the Dublin constituency in the European Parliament elections.

Mark argues that the proposals tabled for the 2013 talks mediated by US envoy Richard Haass were “not as good as Eames-Bradley”. The challenge is also that “different parties are saying different things at different times”, making solutions more difficult. For example, “some parties... say draw a line under the past... and then in the next breath they're demanding pursuit of certain issues”.

He continues: “I don't think we can just simply draw a line under the past, but it's how do we create the situation where we don't endlessly pore over the past, but we don't glibly pass over the past either, because the past leaves a very real sense of grievance for people and not just those people who are directly affected... but also as a society.”

Mark goes on: “Eames-Bradley pointed out that it wouldn't be a case of one size fits all... people have different needs”. In many cases, people need an acknowledgement of what happened and its injustice. “And we should have measures for dealing with the past that facilitate those different ways. We know some people basically just want the truth to be told.” This includes, he argues, for Hansard – the official record of Parliament – to be corrected where government ministers gave an incorrect record of events. “There's some victims of the Troubles for whom the official record still suggest that they somehow contributed to their death, or holds them under some sort of suspicion”.

While the discussion over the constitutional arrangements for Northern Ireland cannot be ignored “what we need to do is get to a position where we can have an honest debate about honest differences over honest preferences as to whether it's United Kingdom or United Ireland as the best context for us,” says Durkan.

Mark also calls for a recognition that Northern Ireland needs to recreate a stronger civic society. “We need to recognise first of all that civil society has made significant contributions during the life of the peace process,” he says. “When we negotiated the [Good Friday] Agreement one of the reasons why we had a Civic Forum as part of the institutions was because we wanted to continue to harness that value and that insight”. Nor does he believe it was right for the Civic Forum to cease operating. “The Civic Forum didn't collapse: the Civic Forum became a casualty of suspension. There was nothing in the Agreement that said it should be a casualty of suspension and some of us argued at the time that the Civic Forum should be maintained even though the assembly was suspended”.

He adds: “I suppose we have the experience since then of seeing citizens’ assemblies and operations in a number of places, not least in the south... So yes we can look to try to refocus, to reach something along the lines of the original Civic Forum, but I think even if we do that, that could be complemented by - or indeed that could commission - various citizens’ assemblies. One of the risks with the Civic Forum is that basically it becomes a representative body of the main political parties, rather than actually taking people from broader society.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the The Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme, Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

Episode 5 - Linda Ervine May 03, 2019

‘Reaching across the divide’

Linda Ervine is a community worker in loyalist east Belfast, who is also an Irish language activist. Her classes have attracted literally hundreds of people to study Irish at the Skainos Centre on Newtownards Road – proof that Northern Ireland must not be seen merely as a narrow concept of two communities.

“We've got to reach across the divide,” says Linda in the latest of the ‘Forward Together’ podcast interviews. “Sadly 20 years after the Good Friday Agreement we are still very much a divided community.” Interviewed before the Lyra McKee killing she says: “There's been a change in narrative. We have become less sectarian in words about religion and become more sectarian... in politics.” The challenge now, she argues is “to educate young people to realize that because somebody disagrees with you it doesn't make them a monster”. People are entitled to have different points of view and expressing those should not undo the peace process.

An important focus of politics and civil society in Northern Ireland should be on why so many people do not vote, argues Linda. “There's a massive amount of people out there who are not voting, so they don't feel engaged with the politics. They don't feel they have a voice. How do we change that?”

Linda is an advocate for a strong civic society. “What we need to do is create opportunities for people to come together with shared interests. And the main focus is not on the difference. The main focus is on what we share.”

She adds: “I think we have to have to have graciousness, generosity. And recognize that there are certain differences, but that's not what's important. What's important is the fact that we share this place. And we have to acknowledge that somebody might have a different political aspiration to us, but it doesn't make them the enemy.”

Linda continues: “I believe the majority of people want to share Northern Ireland, the majority of people want peace. People don't want to go back and the majority of people do not want stalemate politics.”

Even on the separate side of interface walls, communities have more in common than divide them, she suggests. The major problem is not sectarianism. Rather, on both sides of the walls “there was poverty, there was addiction, there was poor health, there was a lack of education, there was lack of opportunity. And unfortunately I know the area that I come from became a bit of a dumping ground as well.”

The focus now must be more on solving these problems than blaming each other for the past. “I don't want to disrespect victims. It's easy for me. You know I don't have a relative who was killed in one of these atrocities. It's easier for me to move on. But if we want to have a better future, then we do need to let go.” She suggests a day of remembrance on which we remember all victims, equally. “I suppose some way of respectfully remembering what happened, and mourn that and recognize that what we did was wrong. And that's all sides and that includes the government, the security forces – and that includes loyalist paramilitaries and that includes republican paramilitaries. And that includes us as members of the public who cheered for our side.”

Linda recognises the Brexit referendum has challenged the constitutional status quo. “Things are changing in the UK. We've seen movement in Scotland where there was a referendum which didn't end up in an independent Scotland, but that is a change that might come. If I could personally wave my magic wand I would like to see a federation of islands. The identity issue in an all-Ireland is not an issue for me.” One of her main concerns for the future is to retain the NHS and “the British way of life”. “For me, if a constitutional change has to come, I want to keep very close links with the rest of the UK and I wonder is there some way that a new discussion could be opened up because at the minute the only discussion we seem to have is the UK or all-Ireland. Could we not have an all-Ireland within a close knit British isles? Is that not a possibility?”

Episode 4 - Frances Black Apr 29, 2019

Senator Frances Black is an independent senator in Ireland’s Oireachtas and a member of its Good Friday Agreement Implementation Committee. She has family roots in Rathlin Island and a strong commitment to addressing mental health challenges. Frances is also a very modest person. “I'm first and foremost a singer you know,” she says. “And I left school when I was very young. I don't have a great language. But I do know that people understand the language of the heart. It's also about warmth isn't it?”

Frances was interviewed in the latest of ‘Forward Together’ podcast interviews. She believes that while mental health was damaged in Northern Ireland – or the six counties in her words – many of the issues are common throughout the island of Ireland. “We know the suicide rates are huge in certain areas in the north, but we also know that the suicide rates in Cork are huge.”

She explains: “We all know particularly within the six counties people have been impacted by the conflict. And you know the trauma that comes out of that and how that can be carried on down the generations and the legacy of it. I know myself even travelling to the north, you could feel the tension, you could feel at any point there could be something that's going to go off, or there could be an explosion, or you see the army going around with guns.”

Mental ill-health is especially prevalent, Frances points out, in those families where a parent was imprisoned – and the impact of that has carried down the generation. “If you have a partner that maybe went to jail, or if you had a family member that would have been killed or shot or whatever, the huge trauma in all of that. So the way it was dealt with was being given a prescription medication. So there were huge amounts of medication given out. And that can impact the next generation... whatever community you are from, it doesn't matter because the impact is the same.

“The children nearly lose both parents - because the parent under prescription medication cannot be present. They can go through the motions. Often the eldest child will look after the rest of the kids and then there's this ongoing legacy that's carried on down and that's what addiction does.... I met with different communities - I met with both sides - the issues are the same, the heartache is the same.”

Those similarities include mental ill-health and addiction, while going beyond these. “The deprivation and the lack of housing and the lack of jobs and all of those things. People started to talk about mental health and I remember one man saying that he was with a group of young men and he asked them what kind of job would you love to do. One said ‘my dream job is to drive a van for the local supermarket’.”

Suggests Frances, another problem is that since the Good Friday Agreement, the closeness of communities has been lost. “No matter what side of the community, there was a great sense of community on either side, because everybody looked after everybody and everybody supported everybody. But more recently that's gone. It is not that same sense of people looking out for each other and that seems to have disintegrated a little bit, but they are still different communities. So my belief is that now it's about bonding the two communities.”

Dealing with that, she believes, should start with a greater focus on integrated education. “I know that there is a lot of work to do. And at the end of the day, I would love to see [more] integrated schools. I'd love to see the churches working together.”

Episode 3 - Avila Kilmurray Apr 26, 2019

‘Strengthen and value civil society’

“Civil society needs to be strengthened to do more than just provide services,” argues Avila Kilmurray, one of the founders of the Women’s Coalition. “Civil society in many ways was the backbone of society in the 70s, 80s, 90s in Northern Ireland, whenever we were in the midst of The Troubles.”

The call for a strong civic society was made in the third interview in the series of more than 30 Forward Together podcasts. These were recorded with leading figures across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to mark 21 years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The interviews seek answers to questions about the future of Northern Ireland and the border counties.

Avila fears that civil society organisations have become focused on grant-funded service delivery, at the expense of their strong and independent voice. She believes that politicians in Northern Ireland do not have the self-confidence to encourage an independent civil society to make demands. “I suppose there's an understandable sense from local politicians, ‘Hey you did a great job, but back in your box’,” she says.

We should now consider the lessons from the use of citizens’ assemblies in the Republic of Ireland, Avila believes. “The assemblies actually proved quite useful for the political system, because they were able to sound-out quite difficult issues.” She regrets the passing of the Civic Forum in Northern Ireland, which was established as the result of a demand from the Women’s Coalition and which “did some interesting reports”, argues Avila.

“I think it was a shame that it was put in abeyance and then never brought back. But I think it was really because there was no understanding that actually participatory democracy doesn't replace representative democracy - it can actually add an element to it.”

A priority now, adds Avila, is to agree a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland. She points out that this is a demand that goes beyond republicanism.

Avila adds that when considering the past it is essential that people’s experiences are heard. She says: “We need to create the space for those stories to actually be shared.”

The aim of the Forward Together podcasts is to promote a wider, more inclusive and engaged conversation about how we make progress and further solidify peace and create a genuinely shared and integrated society. We want that discussion to be mutually respectful, to be forward focused and positive. It considers the real challenges our society faces in the coming years.

This initiative is the result of a partnership between the Holywell Trust peace and reconciliation charity based in Derry/Londonderry and the Slugger O’Toole website. The Forward Together Podcasts are funded through the Media Grant Scheme of the Community Relations Council for Northern Ireland which also provides core support to Holywell Trust.

Episode 2 - Mike Nesbitt Apr 22, 2019

The second episode of our Forward Together Podcast features an interview with former Ulster Unionist Party leader Mike Nesbitt. Below is a snapshot of the discussion with Mike.

“Unionism needs to look and recognise that the environment around us is changing,” says former Ulster Unionist Party leader Mike Nesbitt MLA. He adds: “I would like to see civic unionism becoming more active... Perhaps we need to build civic society that goes beyond the division and the politics of unionism and nationalism”.

The call for a strong civic society was made in the second interview in the series of more than 30 Forward Together podcasts. These were recorded with leading figures across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to mark 21 years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The interviews seek answers to questions about the future of Northern Ireland and the border counties.

Nesbitt suggests that unionism should learn from the way civic nationalism is being organised. He says: “I looked quite enviously at civic nationalism and their ability to come together in such big numbers at such short notice in the Waterfront Hall [for the Beyond Brexit conference] and appear to emerge with a united front. So I think it's up to the politicians to give some leadership here and try and energise people.”

He adds: “Unionism needs to look and recognise that the environment around us is changing. The demographics are changing. That does not mean a united Ireland is inevitable, but it is something we need to be aware of. Scottish nationalism is a threat to the union. English nationalism is a threat to the union and I would actually go as far to say that I believe the DUP, and some of their policies and their attitudes and their tone, is a long term threat to the union.”

Nesbitt continues by suggesting that more needs to be done to bring Northern Ireland society together. He explains: “Perhaps we need to build civic society that goes beyond the division and the politics of unionism and nationalism”.

Building on his approach while leader of the UUP, Nesbitt also argues that members of each of the main communities need to become more engaged in selecting the political leadership of the other main community. “Why do unionists only express an opinion on which unionist party they want?,” he asks. He points out that with the single transferable vote system, members of each of the main communities could express their preference for the leadership of the other main community. “And I think that's where we have to get to.”

Nesbitt also says that Northern Ireland society must seriously consider how we educate our children. “The way we're educating our children at the moment is not viable and sustainable. There's an awful lot of wastage by having duplicated systems.”

Thinking back to his time as a victims commissioner, Nesbitt calls on people to recognise the commonality and similarity of their experiences in the Troubles, irrespective of which community they are members of. He calls for more investment in counselling services.

Episode 1 - Bishop Ken Good Apr 19, 2019

‘Christians should lead in healing Northern Ireland’

Christians should take a leading role in healing Northern Ireland, says Bishop Ken Good, the Church of Ireland bishop for the cross-border diocese of Derry and Raphoe. He also says that politicians should speak less and that civil society should find its voice.

Bishop Ken Good was interviewed in the first of the Forward Together Podcast interviews, a series of more than 30 podcasts recorded with leading figures across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to mark 21 years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The interviews seek answers to questions about the future of Northern Ireland and the border counties.

Bishop Ken Good said: “As Christians we're not only interested in our tribe of people. We're interested in all.... I think the churches still can have important things to say about building a society for the common good.”

He adds: “We do have a role and I think we are playing that and it may be not getting much media attention, but we are involved in building bridges. We are involved in breaking down barriers. I think the churches work quite closely here in the city [of Derry-Londonderry].”

Bishop Good references his friendship with Bishop Donal McKeown, his counterpart in the Catholic Church. “It's interesting how people respond to it. They find it refreshing. They find it gives encouragement. It comes easily. It's a natural kind of thing for us. We tried to do it visibly to be seen to be friends, which we are, and we have a lot in common.”

Bishop Good regrets the passing of the former Civic Forum, which brought civil society together as part of the original Good Friday Agreement. Bishop Good also has a message for politicians – talk less. He says: “If it's not too rude to say it, I think I would like to see our politicians speaking less, or at least be reported less, and for Civic Forum people to be speaking more, or to be quoted more, or to be asked more.”

He continues in a message to radio and television programmes: “I think the adversarial way in which these things are set up is counter-productive.” It reduces the scope for political consensus, suggests Bishop Good. He adds: “At the moment the political system isn't working.”

But Bishop Good also says there needs to be more acknowledgement of the progress that has been made in ending the conflict and the huge loss of life. He calls on Christians to remember the principles of forgiveness and repentance, which can help society move forward.

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