Freakonomics Radio

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EXTRA: The Downside of Disgust (Update) Mar 05, 2025

Show notes

It’s a powerful biological response that has preserved our species for millennia. But now it may be keeping us from pursuing strategies that would improve the environment, the economy, even our own health. So is it time to dial down our disgust reflex? You can help fix things — as Stephen Dubner does in this 2021 episode — by chowing down on some delicious insects.

SOURCES:
- Paul Rozin, professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.
- Val Curtis, late disgustologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
- Sandro Ambuehl, economist at the University of Zurich.
- Emily Kimmins, R&D lead for the sensory and consumer-science team for Kraft Heinz.
- Iliana Sermeno, former chef at The Black Ant.

RESOURCES:
- “Stink Bugs Could Add Cilantro Flavor to Red Wine,” by Alex Berezow (Live Science, 2017).
- “Edible insects: Future Prospects for Food and Feed Security,” by the F.A.O. (United Nations, 2013).
- “I Hate to Break it to You, but You Already Eat Bugs,” by Kyle Hill (Scientific American, 2013).
- “Five Banned Foods and One That Maybe Should Be,” by Leah Binkovitz (Smithsonian Magazine, 2012).
- “Effects of Different Types of Antismoking Ads on Reducing Disparities in Smoking Cessation Among Socioeconomic Subgroups,” by Sarah J. Durkin, Lois Biener, and Melanie A. Wakefield (American Journal of Public Health, 2009).
- “Flesh Trade,” by Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt (The New York Times, 2006).
- “Feeding Poultry Litter to Beef Cattle,” by Jay Daniel and K.C. Olson (University of Missouri, 2005).

EXTRAS:
- "Why Does Everyone Hate Rats?" by Freakonomics Radio (2025).

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624. The Animal No One Loves, Until They Do Feb 28, 2025

Show notes

To most people, the rat is vile and villainous. But not to everyone! We hear from a scientist who befriended rats and another who worked with them in the lab — and from the animator who made one the hero of a Pixar blockbuster. (Part three of a three-part series, “Sympathy for the Rat.”)

SOURCES:
- Bethany Brookshire, author of Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains
- Jan Pinkava, creator and co-writer of "Ratatouille," and director of the Animation Institute at the Film Academy Baden-Württemberg.
- Julia Zichello, evolutionary biologist at Hunter College.

RESOURCES:
- "Weekend Column: Rat’s End, or, How a Rat Dies," by Julia Zichello (West Side Rag, 2024).
- Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains by Bethany Brookshire (2022).
- "Rats: the history of an incendiary cartoon trope," by Archie Bland (The Guardian, 2015).
- "Catching the Rat: Understanding Multiple and Contradictory Human-Rat Relations as Situated Practices," by Koen Beumer (Society & Animals, 2014).
- "Effects of Chronic Methylphenidate on Dopamine/Serotonin Interactions in the Mesolimbic DA System of the Mouse," by Bethany Brookshire (Wake Forest University, 2010).
- "A New Deal For Mice," by C.C. Little (Scientific American, 1935).

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623. Can New York City Win Its War on Rats? Feb 21, 2025

Show notes

Even with a new rat czar, an arsenal of poisons, and a fleet of new garbage trucks, it won’t be easy — because, at root, the enemy is us. (Part two of a three-part series, “Sympathy for the Rat.”)

SOURCES:
- Kathy Corradi, director of rodent mitigation for New York City.
- Robert Corrigan, urban rodentologist and pest consultant for New York City.
- Ed Glaeser, professor of economics at Harvard University.
- Robert Sullivan, author of Rats: Observations on the History and Habitat of the City’s Most Unwanted Inhabitant.
- Jessica Tisch, New York City police commissioner.

RESOURCES:
- "Increasing rat numbers in cities are linked to climate warming, urbanization, and human population," by Jonathan Richardson, Elizabeth McCoy, Nicholas Parlavecchio, Ryan Szykowny, Eli Beech-Brown, Jan Buijs, Jacqueline Buckley, Robert Corrigan, Federico Costa, Ray Delaney, Rachel Denny, Leah Helms, Wade Lee, Maureen Murray, Claudia Riegel, Fabio Souza, John Ulrich, Adena Why, and Yasushi Kiyokawa (Science Advances, 2025).
- "The Next Frontier in New York's War on Rats: Birth Control," by Emma Fitzsimmons (New York Times, 2024).
- "The Absurd Problem of New York City Trash," by Emily Badger and Larry Buchanan (New York Times, 2024).
- "Mourning Flaco, the Owl Who Escaped," by Naaman Zhou (The New Yorker, 2024).
- Rats: Observations on the History & Habitat of the City's Most Unwanted Inhabitants, by Robert Sullivan (2005).

EXTRAS:
- "The Downside of Disgust," by Freakonomics Radio (2021)

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The Show That Never Happened Feb 20, 2025

Show notes

A brief meditation on loss, relativity, and the vagaries of show business.

RESOURCES:
- Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry, documentary (2021)
- Genius & Anxiety: How Jews Changed the World, 1847-1947, by Norman Lebrecht (2019)
- The War Room, documentary (1993)

EXTRAS:
- “Is San Francisco a Failed State? (And Other Questions You Shouldn’t Ask the Mayor)” by Freakonomics Radio (2025)
- “Ari Emanuel Is Never Indifferent,” by Freakonomics Radio (2023)

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622. Why Does Everyone Hate Rats? Feb 14, 2025

Show notes

New York City’s mayor calls them “public enemy number one.” History books say they caused the Black Death — although recent scientific evidence disputes that claim. So is the rat a scapegoat? And what does our rat hatred say about us? (Part one of a three-part series.)

SOURCES:
- Bethany Brookshire, author of Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains.
- Kathy Corradi, director of rodent mitigation for New York City.
- Ed Glaeser, professor of economics at Harvard University.
- Nils Stenseth, professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Oslo.

RESOURCES:
- "On Patrol With the Rat Czar," by Mark Chiusano (Intelligencer, 2024).
- "How Rats Took Over North America," by Allison Parshall (Scientific American, 2024).
- "Where Are the Rats in New York City," by Matt Yan (New York Times, 2024).
- "Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains" by Bethany Brookshire (2023).
- "Human ectoparasites and the spread of plague in Europe during the Second Pandemic," by Nils Stenseth, Katharine Dean, Fabienne Krauer, Lars Walløe, Ole Christian Lingjærde, Barbara Bramanti, and Boris Schmid (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2018).

EXTRAS:
- "Freakonomics Radio Live: 'Jesus Could Have Been a Pigeon.'" by Freakonomics Radio (2018).

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621. Is Professional Licensing a Racket? Feb 07, 2025

Show notes

Licensing began with medicine and law; now it extends to 20 percent of the U.S. workforce, including hair stylists and auctioneers. In a new book, the legal scholar Rebecca Allensworth calls licensing boards “a thicket of self-dealing and ineptitude” and says they keep bad workers in their jobs and good ones out — while failing to protect the public.

SOURCES:
- Rebecca Allensworth, professor of law at Vanderbilt University.

RESOURCES:
- "The Licensing Racket: How We Decide Who Is Allowed to Work, and Why It Goes Wrong" by Rebecca Allensworth (2025).
- "Licensed to Pill," by Rebecca Allensworth (The New York Review of Books, 2020).
- "Licensing Occupations: Ensuring Quality or Restricting Competition?" by Morris Kleiner (W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research, 2006).
- "How Much of Barrier to Entry is Occupational Licensing?" by Peter Blair and Bobby Chung (British Journal of Industrial Relations, 2019).

EXTRAS:
- "Is Ozempic as Magical as It Sounds?" by Freakonomics Radio (2024).

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When Is a Superstar Just Another Employee? Feb 05, 2025

Show notes

In 2023, the N.F.L. players’ union conducted a workplace survey that revealed clogged showers, rats in the locker room — and some insights for those of us who don’t play football. Today we’re updating that episode, with extra commentary from Omnipresent Football Guy (and former Philadelphia Eagle) Jason Kelce.

SOURCES:
- Tom Garfinkel, vice chairman, C.E.O., and president of the Miami Dolphins.
- Jim Ivler, certified contract advisor for players in the National Football League.
- Jason Kelce, host of New Heights podcast and former center for the Philadelphia Eagles.
- Jalen Reeves-Maybin, linebacker for the Detroit Lions and president of the National Football League Players Association.
- Betsey Stevenson, professor of public policy and economics at the University of Michigan.
- J.C. Tretter, former president of the National Football League Players Association and former offensive lineman.
- Mark Wilf, owner and president of the Minnesota Vikings.

RESOURCES:
- “N.F.L. Player Team Report Cards,” by the National Football League Players Association (2024).
- "NFLPA team report cards: Dolphins rank No. 1; Jaguars jump from 28th to fifth; Commanders earn worst grade," by Jonathan Jones (CBS Sports, 2024).
- Kelce, documentary (2023).
- “The N.F.L. Cast Him Out; He Says That Only Makes Him More Powerful,” by Alex Prewitt (Sports Illustrated, 2022).
- New Heights with Jason and Travis Kelce, (produced by Wave Sports + Entertainment).

EXTRAS:
- "Why Don’t Running Backs Get Paid Anymore?" by Freakonomics Radio (2025)
- “How Does Playing Football Affect Your Health?” by Freakonomics, M.D. (2023).
- “Why Does the Most Monotonous Job in the World Pay $1 Million?” by Freakonomics Radio (2022).

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620. Why Don’t Running Backs Get Paid Anymore? Jan 31, 2025

Show notes

They used to be the N.F.L.’s biggest stars, with paychecks to match. Now their salaries are near the bottom, and their careers are shorter than ever. We speak with an analytics guru, an agent, some former running backs (including LeSean McCoy), and the economist Roland Fryer (a former Pop Warner running back himself) to understand why.

SOURCES:
- Brian Burke, sports data scientist at ESPN
- Roland Fryer, professor of economics at Harvard University
- LeSean McCoy, former running back in the N.F.L. and co-host for Fox's daily studio show, "The Facility"
- Robert Smith, former running back for the Minnesota Vikings and N.F.L. analyst
- Robert Turbin, former running back, N.F.L. analyst for CBS Sports HQ, and college football announcer
- Jeffery Whitney, founder and president at The Sports & Entertainment Group

RESOURCES:
- "The Economics of Running Backs," by Roland Fryer (Wall Street Journal, 2024)
- "Confessions of a Hero-Worshiper," by Stephen Dubner (2007)
- "The Rest of the Iceberg: An Insider’s View on the World of Sports and Celebrity," by Robert Smith (2004)

EXTRAS:
- "Roland Fryer Refuses to Lie to Black America," by Freakonomics Radio (2022)
- "Why Does the Most Monotonous Job in the World Pay $1 Million?" by Freakonomics Radio (2022)

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619. How to Poison the A.I. Machine Jan 24, 2025

Show notes

When the computer scientist Ben Zhao learned that artists were having their work stolen by A.I. models, he invented a tool to thwart the machines. He also knows how to foil an eavesdropping Alexa and how to guard your online footprint. The big news, he says, is that the A.I. bubble is bursting.

SOURCES:
- Erik Brynjolfsson, professor of economics at Stanford University
- Ben Zhao, professor of computer science at the University of Chicago

RESOURCES:
- "The AI lab waging a guerrilla war over exploitative AI," by Melissa Heikkilä (MIT Technology Review, 2024)
- "Glaze: Protecting Artists from Style Mimicry by Text-to-Image Models," by Shawn Shan, Jenna Cryan, Emily Wenger, Haitao Zheng, Rana Hanocka, and Ben Y. Zhao (Cornell University, 2023)
- "Nightshade: Prompt-Specific Poisoning Attacks on Text-to-Image Generative Models," by Shawn Shan, Wenxin Ding, Josephine Passananti, Stanley Wu, Haitao Zheng, and Ben Y. Zhao (Cornell University, 2023)
- "A Brief History of Artificial Intelligence: What It Is, Where We Are, and Where We Are Going," by Michael Woodridge (2021)

EXTRAS:
- "Nuclear Power Isn’t Perfect. Is It Good Enough?" by Freakonomics Radio (2022)

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Is San Francisco a Failed State? (And Other Questions You Shouldn’t Ask the Mayor) Jan 22, 2025

Show notes

Stephen Dubner, live on stage, mixes it up with outbound mayor London Breed, and asks economists whether A.I. can be “human-centered” and if Tang is a gateway drug.

SOURCES:
- London Breed, former mayor of San Francisco.
- Erik Brynjolfsson, professor of economics at Stanford University
- Koleman Strumpf, professor of economics at Wake Forest University

RESOURCES:
- "SF crime rate at lowest point in more than 20 years, mayor says," by George Kelly (The San Francisco Standard, 2025)
- "How the Trump Whale and Prediction Markets Beat the Pollsters in 2024," by Niall Ferguson and Manny Rincon-Cruz (Wall Street Journal, 2024)
- "Artificial Intelligence, Scientific Discovery, and Product Innovation," by Aidan Toner-Rodgers (MIT Department of Economics, 2024)

EXTRAS:
- "Why Are Cities (Still) So Expensive?" by Freakonomics Radio (2020)

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