For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast

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Bonus: Grace for the Weird-Ass Brain: “The Bloggess” Jenny Lawson on How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay Apr 03, 2026

Show notes

Description:What does it mean to be okay when nothing is okay?

Not fixed.

Not optimized.

Not cured.

Just… okay.

This week, Jen and Amy sit down with bestselling author and professional weirdo Jenny Lawson to talk about surviving — and sometimes even thriving — inside a brain that does not always cooperate. Jenny’s new book, How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay, is a field guide for tender humans: a collection of tiny tools for when the big solutions feel impossible.

Today, we talk about:

Living with “tiny erratic squirrels” in your head
Why imposter syndrome gets louder with success
Learning to live within your real capacity
Why you’re not failing if it’s just not for you
Helpful tools like “weird walks”, “body doubling”, “writing Zooms”,
The radical courage of simply staying

This conversation explores what happens when we stop trying to override our nervous systems and start listening to them instead. Midlife has a way of stripping away illusion — about productivity, about comparison, about who we’re supposed to be.

Jenny reminds us that sometimes grit looks like finishing the book. And sometimes it looks like taking a drink of water and calling it enough.

If you are exhausted, if you feel behind, if your brain tells you you’re the only one struggling – YOU ARE NOT ALONE. And being “still here” is no small thing.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

“Self-help books are super helpful for the right kind of person but I’m not that person.” – Jenny Lawson
“Keep in mind that what worked for you in the past might not necessarily work for you now or in the future, and that doesn't mean you failed. It just means that's an opportunity.” – Jenny Lawson
“If you throw humor into a really dark subject, it gives people permission to laugh. And then that big monster becomes so much smaller.” – Jenny Lawson

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay: Tips and Tricks That Kept Me Alive, Happy, and Creative in Spite of Myself by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4qWKZi5
Samantha Irby – https://www.samanthairby.com/
A Ghost and His Gold by Roberta Eaton Cheadle – https://amzn.to/405lMH8
Anne Rice – https://annerice.com/
Dean Koontz – https://www.deankoontz.com/
Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia – https://amzn.to/475Qp31
Focusmate (Body Doubling App) - https://www.focusmate.com/
Let's Pretend This Never Happened: (A Mostly True Memoir) by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4rGEBN7
Furiously Happy: A Funny Book About Horrible Things by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4u4RBxG
Broken (In The Best Possible Way) by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4r3Bhuh
Jenny Lawson Book Tour - https://thebloggess.com/2026/02/25/how-to-be-okay-when-nothing-is-okay-on-book-tour/

The New Perimenopause: What’s Actually Happening to Your Body with Dr. Mary Claire Haver Apr 01, 2026

Show notes

Description:For years, women in their late 30s and 40s have walked into doctors’ offices saying the same thing: “I don’t feel like myself.”

They’re exhausted but can’t sleep. Gaining weight but eating less. Anxious, foggy, irritable, disconnected. And too often, they’re told it’s stress. Aging. Depression. Just part of being a woman.

But what if it’s something else?

This week, Jen and Amy sit down with board-certified OB-GYN and menopause expert Dr. Mary Claire Haver to talk about what’s really happening in perimenopause — the hormonal transition that can begin years before your final period and affect nearly every system in your body.

Drawing from her new book The New Perimenopause, Dr. Haver explains:

Why the brain may be the first organ to notice hormone shifts
Why antidepressants are often prescribed before hormones are even discussed
The dangerous legacy of outdated research and underfunded women’s health
How bone density, cholesterol, muscle mass, mood, libido, and cognition are all connected
And why midlife is not a decline — but a powerful window of opportunity

This is not just a conversation about hot flashes. It’s about the “Zone of Chaos.” It’s about medical gaslighting. It’s about reclaiming your body as your ally, not your enemy.

If you’ve ever whispered, “What is wrong with me?” or spent your sleepless nights up Googling dramatic questions like “is my brain broken?” — this episode is for you.

You’re not broken. You’re not weak. And you are definitely not alone.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

“We got some bad f*cking advice…Power through! You built this life. You asked for this. Oh, and also be thin, and make yourself smaller, and don't take up space, and make sure you put everyone in your family before your needs. That's the only way you're gonna be rewarded, elevated, celebrated is on this altar of self-sacrifice. You know what that did for my mother and my grandmother? Dementia and sarcopenia. I’m saying we’re going to take a different path.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver
“Men build rockets. Women build healthcare systems.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver
“One of the good things about menopause is that women lose their give-a-shit filter.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver
“I just want menopause to be taken half as seriously as erectile dysfunction.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

The New Perimenopause: An Evidence-Based Guide to Surviving the Zone of Chaos and Feeling Like Yourself Again by Dr. Mary Claire Haver – https://www.amazon.com/New-Perimenopause-Evidence-Based-Surviving-Yourself/dp/0593736613/
The New Menopause: Navigating Your Path Through Hormonal Change with Purpose, Power, and Facts by Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://amzn.to/4aUtrx3
The Blue Lagoon film (1980) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080453/
Menopause.org
The International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) - https://www.isswsh.org/
The Pause Life - https://thepauselife.com/
MidiHealth - https://www.joinmidi.com/

Guest’s Links: ...

Shannan Martin on Counterweights: Holding Grief and Joy in the Same Hands Mar 25, 2026

Show notes

Welcome to Becoming You with Suzy Welch Mar 23, 2026

Show notes

Today we are thrilled to introduce you to a voice we think can really help us navigate some of the big life questions we’re facing right now: Suzy Welch. Have you ever wondered, “What should I do with my life?” Or, “Should I stay or should I go?” Or, “Is there anyone out there who actually tells the freaking truth about life and work today, but also does not leave me in despair?” Wonder no more! The “Becoming You” podcast has arrived, hosted by Suzy Welch, the business journalist-turned-professor at the helm of NYU’s wildly popular self-discovery class by the same name.

A three New York Times best-seller and frequent contributor to the Today Show and the Wall Street Journal, Professor Welch is considered a leading expert on decision-making, and the discovery and pursuit of authentic purpose. Join Suzy every week to laugh, learn, get riled up, get calmed down, and basically get closer to becoming you, joyfully, in this crazy, upside-down, scary, messy, and altogether beautiful world we share.

[ENCORE] Wonder in the Wilderness: David Gate on Poetry, Care, and Staying Tender in a Harsh World Mar 20, 2026

Show notes

Description:Sometimes a conversation lands so gently—and so powerfully—that it deserves another moment in the light.

In this encore episode, Jen revisits her conversation with poet, writer, and visual artist David Gate, whose work explores themes of care, community, and spiritual resilience.

Jen first discovered David the way so many of us discover the words that change us: late at night on Instagram, stumbling across a poem that made her stop mid-scroll and immediately send it to six friends. That was the beginning of a quiet fandom that eventually turned into this conversation—one that felt less like an interview and more like sitting in the presence of someone who has learned how to notice beauty in hard places.

David’s work—including his collection A Rebellion of Care—is rooted in the radical idea that tenderness, attention, and compassion are not small acts. They are resistance. They are survival. They are a way through the wilderness.

Together, Jen and David explore the ways language can become a lifeline during difficult seasons. They talk about the courage of softness in a harsh world, the sacred practice of paying attention, and how poetry can give us words for things we thought we had to carry alone.

This conversation sits right at the intersection: the wilderness of grief, uncertainty, and fatigue—and the wonder that still insists on growing in the cracks.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

“I did not want to have an email job and I did not want to be in meetings that could have been emails. I did not want to be on Slack. I just didn't want that to be what I was spending my time doing. I loved caring for people, and I loved creating and writing, and I got to do that within the church world.” – David Gate
“It’s a constant battle to speak the truth. Even things we all know It can be difficult to say, if it's not something that is normally said, and it's not something that is normally expressed, so you have to fight for that and you have to fight for your experience of the truth. You have to fight for your story. You have to fight for all of that.” – David Gate
“I think it's very, very difficult for men to reach for emotional honesty because everything tells you that you're failing if you do that. But it's the most important work right now. And so much of what men are actually looking for in this world, intimacy, a sense of place, a sense of belonging, companionship, adventure, excitement, is on the other side of reaching for that emotional honesty.” – David Gate

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

A Rebellion of Care: Poems and Essays by David Gate - https://amzn.to/4jjf87X
Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand by Jeff Chu - https://amzn.to/3GnS21w
Cultivating Belonging and Evolving Faith with Jeff Chu - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/cultivating-belonging-and-evolving-faith-with-jeff-chu/
Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/
Armando Veve, Illustrator - https://www.instagram.com/armandoveve/
Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3YHKgpw
Sinners film (2025) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31193180/
Malaprop's Bookstore, ...

Clarity, Voice, and the Long Way to the Sentence with Anne Lamott Mar 18, 2026

Show notes

Description:Today’s bonus episode is a joy from start to finish. We’re sitting down with treasured friend Anne Lamott—beloved writer, teacher, and spiritual guide—whose voice has shaped how so many of us think about faith, truth, writing, and what it means to be human on the page.

Anne returns to For the Love to talk about her upcoming book, Good Writing, co-written with her husband, journalist and editor Neal Allen. While Neal couldn’t join us today, this conversation is very much about the shared work they created together—a book that isn’t chasing polish or perfection, but clarity, honesty, and respect for the reader.

Good Writing is part craft guide, part philosophy of living. Written in alternating voices, it blends Anne’s signature warmth, humor, and spiritual insight with Neal’s journalistic precision and discipline. Together, they explore what makes sentences work, how voice is formed, why ego gets in the way, and why clarity is not just a stylistic choice—but an act of generosity.

In this intimate and often funny conversation, Jen and Amy talk with Anne about what it was like to co-write a book so closely, what collaboration revealed about trust and restraint, and how writing—at its best—is a relationship. They dig into voice and ego, bad sentences and letting go, rhythm and revision, and why removing what doesn’t serve the sentence can feel like both grief and grace.

But as always with Anne, the conversation goes deeper than craft. This episode explores writing as a way of being in the world—how attention, humility, and courage shape not only our sentences, but our lives.

If you’ve ever loved Bird by Bird, wrestled with your inner critic, or longed to tell the truth with a little more care—this conversation is for you.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

“I only have to do today, today.” – Anne Lamott
“We write because we try to tell the truth. We try to share our experience, strength and hope.” – Anne Lamott
“Say what you mean. Mean what you say. And don’t say it mean.” – Anne Lamott

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Traveling Mercies: Some Thoughts on Faith by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/4qLZRQR
Anne Lamott on Faith, Writing, and Radical Self-Love - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/bonus/anne-lamott-on-faith-writing-and-radical-self-love-2/
Neal Allen - https://www.shapesoftruth.com/
Good Writing: 36 Ways to Improve Your Sentences by Neal Allen and Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/3NMoKNP
Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/4t7FteL
Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/3Z4Nd3r
Stanley Tucci on the For the Love podcast - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/stanley-tucci-food-memories-and-emotions/
Amy’s Full of Microplastics and Existential Dread Sweatshirt - https://www.threadless.com/shop/@dinomike/design/full-of-microplastics/womens/sweatshirt
Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://a ...

Your Kid Isn’t the Problem (And Neither Are You) with Mandy Grass Mar 11, 2026

Show notes

JHBC February 2026: Nikki Erlick’s The Measure Mar 06, 2026

Show notes

Description:What if you were handed a single piece of information that could change everything you think you know about your life?

For this Jen Hatmaker Book Club episode, Jen sits down with novelist Nikki Erlick, author of the wildly imaginative and deeply human novel The Measure—a story that asks one unsettling question: What would you do if you knew exactly how long you had to live?

In The Measure, every adult in the world receives a small wooden box containing a string that reveals the length of their life. What follows isn’t chaos for chaos’ sake, but something far more intimate: marriages tested, dreams deferred or pursued, fears amplified, and love redefined. It’s a novel about mortality, yes—but even more so about meaning, choice, and how we show up for one another when certainty is stripped away.

Jen and Nikki talk about the origin of this unforgettable premise, the emotional weight of writing about death in order to illuminate life, and why the book resonates so deeply with readers navigating grief, anxiety, hope, and big unanswered questions. They explore what The Measure reveals about how we value time, how fear can quietly shape our decisions, and what it might look like to live more honestly—even without guarantees.

Whether you’ve already read along with the book club or are just encountering this story for the first time, this conversation invites you to reflect on your own “measure”—and to consider how love, courage, and presence might matter more than the number of days themselves.

This episode is tender, thought-provoking, and quietly life-altering. Come for the story. Stay for the questions it leaves you asking long after the last page.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

“I was preoccupied with these big questions in life, the things that don't have easy answers or any answers at all. Why do people have different fates? Why do bad things happen to good people? How much power do we actually have over our lives? That inspired me.” – Nikki Erlick
“My process felt like people knocking on the door to my brain at all times, being like, what about me? What about me? I would be an interesting story too. I had to answer the first couple of knocks and bring these new characters in. Once I hit eight or 10, I felt like readers can't handle any more than this.” – Nikki Erlick
“I wanted to pull on everything, for every community that has been marginalized to make this experience feel real for the people in this book.” – Nikki Erlick
“The one thing that doesn't go out of style is hope.”– Nikki Erlick

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

The Measure: A Novel by Nikki Erlick - https://amzn.to/3OmiJaK
The Poppy Fields: A Novel by Nikki Erlick - https://amzn.to/49ZxdGf
Allen Bradley, author - https://alanbradleyauthor.com/
Sandwich: A Novel by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4a0bOwB
Catherine Newman on the For the Love podcast - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/august-2025-catherine-newmans-sandwich/
Wreck by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4bvUy3o
This Is Not About Us by Allegra Goodman - https://amzn.to/4qnGIE3

Guest’s Links:

What If Desire Is the Map? A Wilderness & Wonder Conversation with Jay Stringer Mar 04, 2026

Show notes

Description:Many of us were taught that desire is dangerous—something to manage, suppress, or feel ashamed of. But what if desire isn’t the problem at all? What if it’s not just about sex or attraction, but about the places we feel most alive?

Today, Jen and Amy sit down with FTL fan-favorite Jay Stringer, a licensed therapist and author whose work helps people understand the deeper stories shaping their desires—especially the ones we’ve been taught to hide, or silence. Drawing from his powerful new book Desire, Jay reframes desire not as a moral failure or impulse to eliminate, but as a signal worth listening to—one that points us toward what formed us, what wounded us, and what we are still longing for beneath the surface.

Jay shifts the focus from behavior modification to understanding the story behind desire—for intimacy, success, escape, creativity, or belonging—shaped by early attachment, trauma, and unmet needs. The conversation moves from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?" turning desire from shame into meaning. This is not a conversation about labeling or fixing yourself. It’s about understanding yourself—how your story formed you, and how listening to what brings you to life can lead toward freedom, wholeness, and deeper connection.

This episode also serves as the opening doorway into our Wilderness & Wonder series. In a season when many of us are navigating uncertainty—spiritually, relationally, or internally—this episode grounds us in the idea that exploration isn’t aimlessness, but formation. That the wilderness can be a teacher. And that desire itself may be one of the quiet guides helping us stay awake, curious, and present as we learn how to live inside the questions.

This is a gentle conversation, but it’s also a brave one. And we’re really glad you’re here for it.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

“Desire is a navigational term from Latin that means ‘lack of a star’. I'm looking into the skies, trying to find this new direction. How do I get home in the midst of all this wandering, all this misery that I feel like I'm in?” – Jay Stringer
“When did you last feel alive? When did you feel connected to your body, connected to others? That's the essence of desire that we're trying to get back to.” – Jay Stringer
“The antidote to shame is really developing some curiosity for it.” – Jay Stringer

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Harper’s Magazine | Who Goes Nazi? by Dorothy Thompson - https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/
Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow by Jay Stringer - https://amzn.to/4buLADD
Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing by Jay Stringer - https://www.amazon.com/Unwanted-Sexual-Brokenness-Reveals-Healing/dp/1631466720
Annie Dillard - https://www.anniedillard.com/
Brené Brown - https://brenebrown.com/
Alex Honnold climbs Taipei 101 skyscraper without ropes - https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Living/video/alex-honnold-climbs-taipei-101-skyscraper-ropes-129537771
Bill Plotkin - https://www.animas.org/about-us/our-founder/

Impossible to Ignore: Norah O’Donnell on Women, Power, and Collective Courage Feb 25, 2026

Show notes

Description:What does it look like to strive ardently for justice and equality without losing yourself in the process?

Today, Jen sits down with Norah O’Donnell—award-winning journalist, anchor, and managing editor of the CBS Evening News—for a conversation about courage, compassion, and the women who have quietly shaped the arc of American history.

Norah’s new book, We the Women: The Hidden Heroes Who Shaped America, uncovers the stories of women who refused to disappear: printers and poets, doctors and intellectuals, community builders and policymakers, women who risked safety, status, and belonging to tell the truth, expand freedom, and insist that dignity belongs to everyone. In this episode, we reflect on what these lives reveal about compassion—not as sentiment, but as action.

Jen, Amy, and Norah talk about the indomitable women who made justice visible, who challenged power without losing their moral center, and who built systems of care that outlived them. The conversation also turns inward, as Norah reflects on her own career as one of the most trusted voices in American broadcast journalism, regularly asking hard questions in public spaces and of people in positions of power.

This is a conversation about fierce compassion—the kind that tells the truth, draws boundaries, builds community, and refuses erasure. It’s an invitation to remember the women who came before us, and to consider how we might carry their courage forward in our own time.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

“I think that journalists are doing an incredible job right now under really tough circumstances. But they're bringing to light what the power of the federal government, what the power of state governments and others are doing, and allowing the electorate to be informed so that they can get involved, they can vote, they can be energized, and each of us can be part of this great American democracy.” – Norah O’Donnell
“I do believe we need more women in government and more women in positions of power.” - Norah O’Donnell
“I’m in the business of information not affirmation.” – Norah O’Donnell
“Women have been at the forefront of helping to bend that arc towards justice. Women have crashed through the educational glass ceiling. More women get degrees than men. Women have the right to vote and they do vote in greater numbers than men. So when are we gonna see this tipping point? I keep waiting for that in my lifetime.” – Norah O’Donnell

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

We the Women: The Hidden Heroes Who Shaped America by Norah O’Donnell - https://amzn.to/4keE2Hb
We The Women Tour - https://www.wethewomenbook.com/about
CBS News | Norah O’Donnell - https://www.cbsnews.com/team/norah-odonnell/
The Six Triple Eight | Netflix - https://www.netflix.com/title/81590591
Mary McLeod Bethune Statue - https://www.aoc.gov/explore-capitol-campus/art/mary-mcleod-bethune-statue
The Declaration of Sentiments - https://www.nps.gov/wori/learn/historyculture/declaration-of-sentiments.htm

Guest’s Links:

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