Finding Your Summit

Latest Episodes:

Matt Miller discusses the impact of surviving a tumultuous accident on Pico de Orizaba that led to losing most of his fingers yet overcame and is changing lives for the better. Mar 19, 2021

Show notes

Matt Miller

Today's guest Matt Miller discusses his athletic background. "I was a 22-year-old kid. I played college baseball at Santa Clara University. So, I grew up an athlete and I grew up here too in Phoenix with a really special relationship with my father. We grew up in the outdoors. I was so blessed. We went to Alaska every summer. Just incredible tales with my father. We probably should have died a long time ago. But as you know Mark, it always works out, it seems like, until it didn't."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Matt Miller, Founder of Klarity Lifestyle Company, Outdoorsman, Ultra Runner, Baseball Enthusiast, Writer, Speaker, and Coach, about his life leading up to the big climb in Mexico. "I graduated from Santa Clara. I didn't get drafted. I think I enjoyed life a little too much my senior year, and I came back, and tried to figure life out. My father asked me to go on this climb. He had gotten into mountain climbing while I was away at school. He had done the Tetons. But nothing major, nothing like what you are doing. Of course I was going to go along. What a great way to get away. I had eight months in the real world since playing baseball before this trip."

What You Will Learn:

Matt Miller talks about climbing Pico de Orizaba, a volcano outside of Mexico City. "We go and this is November 22nd, 2002. We stayed at base camp, which is about 14,000 feet. They dropped us off there and the idea was we would spend the night in this camp and you wake up at about two in the morning and push to the summit. The first three or four hours are walking through a volcanic spree before you actually get to the glacier. We woke up, I will say this, nighttime, there was one window in this little hut we were in at basecamp. It happened to be a full moon."

Matt Miller discusses traveling up the slippery Glan Glaciar. "I remember getting to the glacier, we bent down and put our crampons on and that was a really vivid memory for me man. I remember looking down and tying my shoes and that was the last time I ever tied my shoes with my fingers. I can still remember it like it was yesterday."

How did Matt's fall take place? "About an hour into the climb, my father had altitude sickness and wasn't feeling well. So, he started dragging behind everyone. I stayed with him and kind of just walked directly behind him and kind of let him walk in front of me at a slower pace. That way, if he fell or something went wrong, I could drop to my knees and try self-arresting and get on him. It was so steep. We felt that if someone went, it would just take everyone. It was almost too dangerous to rope. We were about 200 yards short of summit. The rest of our team had already made it. We were moving pretty slow and he slipped and fell."

Matt Miller opens up about the extent of the injuries he endured. "I kind of went limp. Which is probably why I didn't break anything. But I slid on my face. So, not only was I beaten up, my nose was all the way off. My ear was hanging off. My ribs were all broken and probably the most terrifying thing was I was blind from all of the swelling. My head was about the size of a basketball. I couldn't hear anything. I couldn't see anything. I could hear somebody moaning. I remember I asked dad what happened. I don't think I ever heard my dad swear. He said, 'Don't f*cking move. I will never forget that. I knew it was real."

How did therapy unfold for Matt Miller's injuries? "For me, they were waiting for this swelling to come down. At that point, they would just basically do debriding, looking at all of my wounds and cleaning things out. My fingers, it was that first day in Mexico City that I noticed my fingers were really, really white, and I noticed that nobody was talking about them. I had asked the doctor twice and he kind of ignored me and moved on. No one had said anything. So, it was my third day in Mexico City, I'm coming up from a bath actually, and I'm moving my fingers in and out, just looking at the skin on my ring and index finger slops off."

Saving His Thumbs

Frostbite played a harmful role in hurting Matt's hands. "The life-changing thing was saving this, the thumbs. If they didn't save any of my thumbs, I would have been doomed. To fill that part in. I had the fingers still on here when I got back to the states. They were just white. They were turning black. The plan was to wait for a month and see where things shook out. You can imagine, there aren't a lot of frostbite specialists in Scottsdale (Arizona).

Leadville 100 and K2 Adventures

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Matt Miller discusses running the Leadville 100 and partnering up with K2 Adventures. "I remember it took a half an hour to tie my shoes the first time. But it was important that I learned. That was pretty much the core of my work out for the first week was tying my shoes. Then it turned into a mile, then two mile, and three mile. I became a runner. As you know, I think you know, I'm running Leadville 100 in August. I'm running Leadville and I partnered with a group called K2 Adventures, an amazing group. They help people with disabilities do incredible things. So, they led the first blind guy up Everest."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com

He's the oldest American to stand on top of Mt Everest from the North and from the South. This guy is a real life Indiana Jones, always pushing himself for more adventure.. What a story. Mar 12, 2021

Show notes

Retired lawyer, mountaineer, and extreme adventure enthusiast talks about moving towards mountain climbing later in life after retiring from his successful 45-year law career and becoming the oldest American to reach the summit of Mount Everest and return alive at age 67.

Were there mentors that motivated and assisted guest Bill Burke in during his journey towards mountaineering? "Not in mountaineering, Mark. In the law I did. I had mentors in the law that really helped me. I had a wonderfully fun and successful law career. I practiced law for 45 years all over the world, at offices with a big international law firm in a variety of different cities. I had mentors when I was a young lawyer associate in these firms that I looked up to that really helped my career, and I had a great career in law."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Bill Burke about making the transition from his law career to mountain climbing. "When I retired at 60 in 2003 I decided, now I have to figure out what I do next because I'm not going to go home and sit in front of the television. I'm a Type-A personality. I love adventure and risk. I'm kind of an adrenaline junky in that respect. So, I decided what would come next and I always loved the mountains. There was no figure that I was following there because it was all new to me."

What You Will Learn:

How did Bill Burke first get involved in mountain climbing? "I had an interest in the mountains. I loved the mountains. I hadn't done any climbing at all. I then decided to take a climbing course just outside of Seattle with Alpine Ascents, a six-day course that really helped me. I really enjoyed it, and I just progressed from there to the seven summits. So, I didn't really have a figure I was looking up to. There was nobody that was encouraging me in that way. It was all sort of self-made because it was all so new to me."

Bill Burke talks about climbing Mountain Rainier. "The year that I took the climbing course I decided that I was going to come back to Washington that same year which was 2001 and I'm going to climb Mount Rainier, so I did. When I realized I could make it on a big time mountain, Rainier is a big time big league mountain, when I was able to succeed on Rainier and I enjoyed it, I thought, well, what is the next mountain going to be? I had heard about Mount McKinley as you say, it is now called Denali, and I said, this is going to be my next big mountain."

What was Bill Burke's experience like climbing Denali, previously known as Mountain McKinley? "One of the guilds that was on that trip that I took up Rainier told me, No, no, no, I think you need to try out some other Alpine peaks, smaller and not as challenging as McKinley. That is a really tough mountain. Maybe you need to go to the volcanoes in Mexico or you can go with me here and there. I listened to him and thanked him, and that next year I went McKinley and submitted McKinley. I just felt like I was ready for it and I wasn't going to be told that it wasn't something I was capable of . I felt like I had the experience from the courses I took, the course I took in Seattle and the experience I had on Rainier to give it a shot. It was a great trip. It was very successful."

Bill Burke gives us a sense of what it was like when he traveled up the south side of Mount Everest versus traveling up the north. "Mount Everest straddles two countries, on its north flank is Tibet and on its south flank is in Nepal. It is a very different experience on both the north approach and the south approach. For the south approach, you get to trek up to the basecamp, which is a 35-mile trek. It is one of the most fun parts of the trip, at least it was for me because you stop in the villages. You see how the people live. You are enhanced by their culture and their religion. You are able to order off of a menu. It is just really fun. It is about a six-day trip because you are acclimatizing.

In what ways did climbing the north side of Everest differ from the right? "On the north approach by the way of Changtse, from Nepal to Tibet. Then you cross the friendship bridge there and you drive all the way into basecamp. There is a little 35-mile trek to basecamp. You drive into basecamp. You set up your camps there. So, it is a much easier approach to get into. Other differences are, in the south approach you really don't see Mount Everest very much until you get right up the mountain and close to it. It is blocked by these huge peaks that surround it in Nepal. So, you don't really get to enjoy the view."

Power of Having Goals

What is Bill Burke's mental makeup to reinvent himself to achieve what he is trying to accomplish? "I think setting goals is a big factor in success, setting big goals, doing your due diligence to find out how to achieve those goals. Actually attempting to achieve the goals, learning from your mistakes. I always tell people that ask what is the physical preparation. What is your physical regiment to get ready? I always tell them what it is. It is pretty rigorous and tough. But, mental commitment, mental fortitude, mental toughness is what gets you across the goalline, to use an NFL metaphor."

Crash

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Bill Burke also discusses rebounding from disappointment. "I actually climbed Mount Everest six times. But four of those times I had to turn around. I was up on the southeast ridge on the south approach. Once I had to turn around and then three times I had to turn around on the northeast ridge when I was climbing on the Tibet side. So, yeah, I submitted twice. But I didn't summit four times. When you train so hard and there is a lot of cost and expense involved, as I am sure you know, to get there. But more importantly, when you don't reach the goal and you don't fulfill your dream. It is disappointing. You need to deal with that. You need to learn how to deal with that."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/

The power of curiosity. Dr Lara Pence helps change lives to be the best version of ourselves... Mar 05, 2021

Show notes

192: Laura Pence: PsyD Doctor, Theraand Founder of LIGHFBOX discusses how she evolved from her early beginnings as a high school athlete, to her involvement in the Spartan Championships and treating patients that battle eating disorders.

Laura Pence

Today's guest Laura Pence discusses her introduction to the Spartan Championships at a point in her life where she had been in a private practice as a psychologist for about 10+ years and was experiencing a nagging feeling that there was something else she should be doing. "I got this random, and I mean random, phone call from this gentleman who was producing a documentary for Spartan, and they said, we are doing this documentary. We want to talk and really highlight the importance of taking care of your body in order to take care of your mind, and we wanted to interview you for the documentary. I sort of flipped it the other way. I'm like, we have to take care of our mind first if we want to take care of our body."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Laura Pence, PsyD, Therapist, and Founder of LIGHFBOX about signing up for her first Spartan race. "I had heard of obstacle racing before and adventure racing. But I had always been your average athlete I guess. I mean, I played soccer from 7th grade all the way through college. I played basketball up until college. I always valued physical activity and movement. So, I had heard of things like obstacle races and tough mudder runs and stuff like that. But, I had never done one. So, I find Joe in my office and I am an individual who truly believes that if I am going to get behind something, I've got to do that thing that I am going to get behind. So the day before had signed up for a Spartan race."

What You Will Learn:

Laura Pence describes what she learned about the Spartan Championships. "I am watching the physical manifestation of what I had been asking my clients to do for 10-11-12 years, to walk through things that are difficult, to overcome obstacles, to carry heavy weight, right? To use support people for assistance in their journey. Like, all of these metaphors that I had used in my office with my clients. You are carrying the emotional weight of your trauma from five years ago. We've got to overcome this wall that you have up against hearing good things about yourself. I was seeing the physical manifestation of that in the area at AT&T Stadium with these individuals running the Spartan race, and I was immediately hooked."

Does Laura Pence believe that training a strong mind can train a very strong body? "I believe that they work so much in tandem. I think for each of us we have to start somewhere. Some people start with the mind, right? Some people start with really dialing into their mindset and the psychology that is going on, and other people start with their body and then the mind starts to follow. So, I think for each individual it is different. There are people, for example, who have come into my office struggling with addiction, let's say. First what they want to work through, or what they think would be helpful for them to work through is a past trauma, right? So, we do that and at some point, because inevitably it happens in my office, I encourage them or ask them, or inquire with them, get curious with them about movement. How does movement fit into their life?"

When people come to Laura Pence who feel stuck in their life, how does she do to get them started to get unstuck and passionate about something? "You can literally Google 'list of values' and you can find a list of images of values, 30 values, 50 values, and then you can go through the process. You can pick 10, right? Pick 10 values that feel aligned with you. What I mean by that is that if somebody were to give a speech about you, what would you want them to say? For me, a lot of it has to do with adventure, and family, and integrity, and honesty. So, when you think about what would you want your friends to say if they are giving a speech about you, that could be a guiding place for you picking your values."

Laura Pence talks about her approach to therapy. "I like to call myself a more active therapist. I don't necessarily publish this on my website. If you get my newsletter you certainly see it. I like to unravel bullsh*t...The truth is, I don't know how much time I'm going to have with any given client. They only sign up for one week at a time, even if we have scheduled the same day and time for the next 52 weeks. I don't know if they are going to come back next week. So, I have a limited amount of time with them to make the biggest impact. For me, yes, it is important to talk about feelings I think, and explore feelings. The truth is, half the time people don't know what they feel."

How did she find herself in the lane of becoming an expert in treating eating disorders? "When I was in high school, I had a best friend who had a pretty raging eating disorder. There was sort of a critical moment in my own life in the athletic arena where I was a captain of the soccer team and she was my best friend. As a captain of the soccer team the coach consults with the captains on who they want on the team and who they think is appropriate for the team. We were a great soccer team. We got second in state my senior year. It was a big deal to make varsity. I remember senior year she tried out for the team. I was a captain and we had a discussion, me and the other two captains and the coach about whether or not she would make the team because we all knew she had an eating disorder and I was rightfully torn."

The Word 'Curiosity'

What power does Laura Pence believe the word 'curiosity' has? "To me, curiosity puts us in a state of wonder, and it also strips away our expertise and our attachment to know. When we give ourselves the opportunity to not know, first of all, it strips away our ego immediately. Because if we don't know and if we are ok with not knowing, then we don't have to be right. So much about being right is about ego. Curiosity allows you to step into a position of wonder, also without judgement if you are able to do that. It is hard sometimes to do that. It is hard to be curious about how you think, how you feel, how you behave, how you relate, how you engage with the world without having judgement seep in."

Eating Disorders in Dallas

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Laura Pence discusses the work she has done in Dallas treating people dealing with eating disorders. "Dallas is a place that feeds off of perfectionism and doing the most things as possible. Which, inevitably, for any person is going to be burdensome, and stressful, and difficult, and put you in a place of being emotionally dysregulated. So, that was really the maintenance of my practice, working primarily with individuals in Dallas. Really in a lot of ways Mark, my work with eating disorders propelled me to work with athletes."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/
Laura Pence website:drlarapence.com
Laura Pence social media: Instagram
Lighfbox website: lighfbox.com
Lighfbox social media: Instagram

Jerry Schemmel: Plane Crash survivor, NBA broadcaster, cyclist across America & author. This guy is living the 9 lives of a cat. Incredible. Feb 26, 2021

Show notes

191: Jerry Schemmel: Plane crash survivor, broadcaster, cyclist, and author talks about how he survived the crash of United Airlines Flight 232, established a long career as a play-by-play broadcaster for professional basketball, as well as became an author.

Jerry Schemmel

Guest Jerry Schemmel describes what it was like before the United Airlines 232 crash occurred. "We had such a crazy circumstance because we had a lot of time before we hit. Most of these major airline disasters something happens, immediately there is chaos and then there is a crash. But ours strung out for 45 minutes and the reason for that was they were trying an emergency landing in Sioux City. Everytime they were heading for the airport the plane sort of veered off to the right. They would have to come back and line up again. We did that five times and that is why it took us so long."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Jerry Schemmel who discusses what was going through his mind when the plane was in the process of crashing. "In those 45 minutes I thought about everything Mark. I thought about a myriad of things. I thought about my life to that point. I was 29-years old. I thought, well, if I am not going to survive, I led a pretty good life. I had a great marriage. My wife and I had been married for four years and didn't have kids yet. I had a great marriage. I had a great little career. So, if I am going to go, it may not be a bad time to go. Then I thought, I can't think that way. My thought was, if you are dead, you are not going to do anything. But if you are not, and this crash happens, don't panic."

What You Will Learn:

Jerry Schemmel talks about surviving a plane crash that killed 112 people. "United Airlines Flight 232 happened in 1989 and I was working back then, Mark, for the Continental Basketball Association, which is the NBA's minor league system. The office was based in Denver back then. It was a flight that was originating in Denver. We were bound for Chicago. We got about halfway there over Northwest Iowa when we had an explosion aboard this plane. The plane was a jumbo jet, a DC-10, 296 people were aboard, completely full. The first thing that I thought was a bomb had gone off. Honestly, I thought that a terrorist had planted a bomb."

What were factors that contributed to United Airlines 232 crashing? "I found out the plane had blown an engine, the number two engine in the DC-10. It severed the entire hydraulics system, which left the engine completely gone. Basically, it blew out the back of the engine compartment. The cockpit crew tried to get us to Sioux City. The cockpit crew had so little control of the plane. A normal DC-10 landing is about 120 miles-per-hour when you touch the ground. They could slow the plane down. So, we hit at 252 miles-per-hour, which by itself is a disaster."

Jerry Schemmel describes the point of impact as the airplane collided with the ground. "We hit the ground. We flipped over. The plane broke into all kinds of pieces, big and small. After we flipped over we slid another 4000 feet. So, over a mile from start to finish We ended up in a cornfield next to the airport in Sioux City and the result was that 112 people died as you said, 184 of us survived. But 112 died. I was one of the lucky ones. Everyone around me in the crash died."

Why does Jerry Schemmel believe that his life was spared when on the plane weren't? "I think the best explanation is that my chair didn't give. I stayed in my seat. My seat belt stayed intact. My chair stayed intact. Most of the people around me either got thrown out of their seat or were actually thrown in their seat. Their seat had dislodged and they were thrown in it. That was in my area. United Airlines came out years later and said that most of the people died because of smoke inhalation, which I think could have certainly happened in other parts of the plane. But the piece that I was in, that wasn't the case."

Did Jerry ever struggle with survivor's guilt? "Survivor's guilt is real. I was worried it was going to happen to me and I didn't believe that. I thought, what are people talking about? I'm the luckiest guy in the world. I survived in the middle of a group of people who died in this plane crash, 112 people lost their lives. I should be the luckiest guy in the world. But after a couple of weeks or a month, I looked in the mirror and I couldn't see that guy."

Saving a Baby

How did Jerry Schemmel go about saving a baby after the plane had crashed? "I heard a baby crying inside the wreckage and the next thing I remember, I'm back inside the plane. I didn't think about it. I didn't turn around and look, weigh the odds or anything. It just sort of happened. The next thing I remember I'm on all fours on top of the crying and I pulled a little baby, an 11-month-old girl out of the overhead compartment of the plane, because we were upside down, so she was below me. As soon as I grabbed her, she stopped crying."

Crash Reunions

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Jerry Schemmel also talks about reunions that occurred with United Airlines 232 crash victims. "We had reunions. We had one about six months after the crash. We had another after a year. I think Sioux City, Iowa had a two-year. United Airlines kind of helped us get together a little bit, and then the one-year anniversary after the crash, the city of Sioux City brought everybody together back that wanted to come. So, we had those reunions. Then we were meeting after that a little bit more, Mark, and then the numbers kind of dissipated a little bit. We kind of stopped meeting altogether, which was great. We didn't need to do that anymore."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/
Jerry Schemmel's website: jerryschemmel.com
Jerry Schemmel's email address: jschemmel6@gmail.com

Benjamin Breckheimer: Former Staff Sargent who was blown up by an IED, then overcame his injury plus divorce and suicidal thoughts to regain his drive by becoming the 1st Purple Heart recipient to climb the Seven Summits Feb 12, 2021

Show notes

190: Benjamin Breckheimer: Former Staff Sergeant who was blown up by an IED, then overcame his injury plus divorce and suicidal thoughts to regain his drive by becoming the 1st Purple Heart recipient to climb the Seven Summits.

Benjamin Breckheimer

Did Benjamin Breckheimer always want to be in the military? "When Desert Storm was unfolding, I wasn't even 7-years-old. I just remember watching all of the news footage and I was just amazed by the nighttime footage of the raid, and I was like, if there is ever a war I want to be a part of it. Unfortunately, tragic events of September 11th, 2001 happened and I graduated from high school in June of 2002 and right out of high school I decided to join the military. I didn't exactly know what I was going to do in the military."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Benjamin Breckheimer why he felt compelled to join the military. "My dream as a kid for an occupation was to be a surgeon. But I didn't want to go to eight years of college after just getting out of 12 years of school that I didn't really want to do. I scored pretty well on the ASVAB. It is the military test, the aptitude test basically. It gives you certain engineering or medical, science sort of things. I don't remember what my score was. But I remember the recruiter saying, just let me know what you want to do. You can pretty much do anything. My exact words out of my mouth were, 'I want to be as close to the surgeon as I can without having to go to college,' and operating specialist is what they came up with."

What You Will Learn:

What did being on reserves consist of for Benjamin? "As a reservist, you do the first weekend of every month. You do drill weekends, which are your training weekends. Then two weeks out of the summer you go do training in a military installation. I was in Wisconsin. So, we would go to Fort McCoy for two weeks and just do training for those two weeks. The unit I waa with, they actually deployed to Afghanistan prior to me arriving at that unit, and they weren't slotted to go back overseas for another two or three years. I just never got that opportunity while I was with them. So, I just asked my Company Commander if he would let me go active duty, and he signed the paperwork."

Benjamin Breckheimer discusses getting deployed to Baddad. "In September of 2005, I got exactly what I was hoping for. I got to deploy to Bagdad, Iraq for a year, and as an operating room specialist the civilian world would be a surgical tech. So, you assist a surgeon in surgeries, hand him the tools, retrack, anything they really needed. It was the first time I ever saw an individual pass on my operating room table. You know, this thought came through my head that it wasn't fair that this kid, and I say kid lightly because we were all young at that age, I would like to believe, was dieing for me. He was out fighting for me and I was safe in the green zone. I wasn't out on the front lines or anything like that, and it just didn't seem fair that he was giving his life while I was safe."

What was it like for Benjamin Breckheimer after a year in Bagdad? "I wanted to do more, I would like to believe. I just felt like I wasn;t doing enough. I didn't feel like I was doing my part, so to say. Once I got back from Iraq I pretty much had my mind set on changing my job in the military and I ended up reclassifying as a Calvary Scout. That is completely in the opposite end of being in the medical field. A Calvary Scout, you do reconacense, surveillance. You make targets for overhead bombings. So, you are on the frontlines doing this stuff. The saying that the grassing isn't always greener on the other side is true. It was a tough job."

What is the difference between when he went from Afghanistan to Iraq? "When we landed in Iraq, I really felt like there was an appreciation. It was a big city. Baghdad is a huge city. So, there is a lot of infrastructure around, and when we arrived in Candahar it felt like it was very desolate, just more of a desert. I'm not going to say wasteland, more desert than city infrastructure."

How did Benjamin Breckheimer's injury take place? "A stryker vehicle is basically an eight-wheeled tank. There are four wheels on each side. It could hold up to 10 individuals in this vehicle, aside from the driver. We were actually out on a mission early in the morning on September 13th to go pay for damages that were done to an irrigation system that a farmer had. I was the very last vehicle in a four-vehicle convoy. Just following the tracks of the vehicle in front of me. I was either too far left or too far right from those tracks and it was lights out. It felt like I hit a brick wall literally. It was crazy because you don't see it coming. It just happened. I like the fact that I am able to remember everything . But I think more so because I was the only individual to get wounded. In all, I had a concussion. My right eardrum was blown, a couple vertebrae fracture, mild TBI, minor pelvic fracture. Both of my femurs were fractured, and my right leg was literally hanging by a strip of skin."

When You Get Knocked Down Keep Going

How many surgeries did he have between flown back to the states and the surgery that he had in Afghanistan? "I got rushed into the emergency room and that was the first time I felt really terrified. I went from working on the side of the operating table to end up being on it. It was very scary for me. It really brought me back to how the individuals in Iraq felt when we were rolling them into the ER. From the point of impact, I had surgery done on both of my femurs and my lower right leg, which they put external fixators on, which is, they basically pin in your bone and then they have a carbon rod to stabilize your bone and I had that surgery done right away."

Finding His Summit in Mountaineering

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Benjamin Breckheimer talks about how he got into mountaineering, "I was really stepping out of my comfort zone, which I think a lot of people in those dark situations might need to do. But the mountaineering, like you said, it took me a while before I realised that I was climbing for other reasons. I will start by saying this, the very first mountain I submitted was Mount Elbrus in Russia."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/
Benjamin Breckheimer: Website | Instagram

Lakpa Rita Sherpa: He has summited Everest 17 times and was the first Sherpa to ever climb the Seven Summit. Fascinating story Feb 05, 2021

Show notes

190: Lakpa Rita Sherpa: Mountain Climber and Sherpa who has climbed to the top of Mount Everest an astonishing 17 times and became the first Sherpa to climb the seven summits in 2009. Lakpa Rita Sherpa discusses how he managed to accomplish these impressive feats from his beginnings in Nepal to his current home in Seattle, Washington.

Lakpa Rita Sherpa

How was it for Lakpa RIta Sherpa growing up in Thame in Nepal? "It's a small town. We all know each other. I grew up with eight siblings. My parents gave birth to 11 kids, three didn't survive. But eight are still surviving. My dad used to be a mountain guide as well. My dad didn't get an opportunity to go to school because by then when his generation was growing up there was no school existing. The school I went to was built by Edmund Hillary after he submitted Everest. It was founded in 1960. I was born in 1966. So the school was just born six years before I was born."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Lakpa Rita Sherpa about his early days in Nepal and eventually becoming an extremely experienced sherpa. "I had any opportunity to go to school. But I never got a chance to go to college. My parents, like I said, they gave birth to 11 kids and three didn't survive; eight were still alive. My father was the only source of income to support the kids, all of those kids. Then after I finished my high school, 1984, as being an older son, I had to take over to help to support the family. Basically, my father got a frost bite when he was climbing and he was no longer able to do what he used to do."

What You Will Learn:

Did Lapka Rita Sherpa grow up with electricity in Nepal? "No, we didn't have electricity at all by then. We used kerosene lamps and then we used plywood. So, when I was a kid, when I wasn't going to school I would be out in a jungle collecting dead firewood for us to use for our fuel sources. Then during the night, kerosene lamps, or those that can't afford, they use a pinetree, which is to burn. So, they use that as a lamp by then, which was pretty tough."

How do you grow things at 12,000 feet? "We still grew some stuff there. During the summer we get one crop a year, which is basically potatoes, and spinach, and chives. Those are pretty much what we grow. In some places we grow buckwheat which is also crops. It's all that we grow and we keep animals, yaks, for basically trading to Tibet for milking or for meat as well. There is a market in Namche, which is basically a three or four hour hike from my hometown. So, every Saturday there will be a market where you can trade for whatever you don't grow."

What was his big break to get on an exhibition team to actually go climb Mount Everest? "It was very much an inspiration for me when Sir Edmund Hillary and his sherpas would visit our schools. They used to visit our schools once a year during those days, and I always wanted to follow things in footstep with my dream. The other thing like I say there was nothing else that exists or that I can do by then. So, it is very important for me. I got an opportunity to do that with my cousin. My uncle was leading an exhibition to Everest in 1984 and I got an opportunity to work with him. He provided me a job without having any experience."

Lakpa talks about his exhibitions in 1984 and then 1990. "By then the commercial exhibitions were very rare. There were only a few commercial exhibitions. So, it is too hard to find a job. But I was always keen to work hard, try to do my best, and since I had been to school a little bit, I spoke a little bit of English, not as good as today, that helped me too. So, I got an opportunity again in 1990, which is a Yugoslavia team. My English was pretty good between all of the sherpas that were working for them. They chose me to work with them, route working, fixing lines, and stuff like that."

What are Lakpa's responsibilities at Alpine Ascents aside from working as a lead sherpa? "I do the bookkeeping, managing all of the expenses during the exhibitions. I'm also responsible for hiring all of the sherpas who work for Alpine back in Nepal."

Todd Burleson of Alpine Ascents

What was the connection between Lakpa Rita Sherpa and Todd Burleson, the president and owner of Alpine Ascents? "The first time was 1990, even before I summited Mount Everest. I got an opportunity to work with Todd. Since then, we have become very good friends. Since then I have always worked with his exhibitions. He treats me very well and we have become very good friends. Then in the year 2000 he gave me the opportunity. He says, 'Do you want to come to the U.S. and work for us?' This was a great opportunity. I was a little bit scared by then too because I never thought that I would be. This is a huge country."

Before Climbing Everest

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Lakpa Rita Sherpa also shares advice for anyone looking to summit Mount Everest. "Like you, you have done a lot. You have climbed so much, which is a great help. But, in the world, there are some people who haven't put a clamp on their thinking to climb Mount Everest, which I would say is wrong. Before you go to Everest you should train hard. You should practice with a little mountain. All of these mountains will teach you so many things."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/
Lakpa Rita Sherpa: Alpine Ascents

Rob Urbach: CEO of the Famous Iditorid Race in Alaska. Incredible tale of a Husky dog race covering 938 miles in unreal conditions. The ultimate test of grit... Jan 29, 2021

Show notes

188: Rob Urbach: Chief Executive Officer of the Iditarod race in Alaska, discusses what it took for him to make the impressive transition from being the youngest Ironman Kona triathlete to emerging as the CEO of the intense outdoor Iditarod long-distance sled dog race.

Rob Urbach

How did guest Rob Urbach get involved in competitive sports? "I've worked in the sports business my entire career. But I was a triathlete. So, I did Ironman Kona at age 19, was the second youngest guy to do so. I could feel some of what you put into your endeavors from a passion and fundraising standpoint and relate it to that. Somehow that race, I read the Sports Illustrated since I was in high school, and thought, gee, I want to try that. I knew nothing about triathletes. I didn't know a triathlete. But I figured out how to do that and raised money for the American Heart Association along the way."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Rob Urbach, Chief Executive Officer of the Iditarod long-distance sled dog race in Alaska about the differences between competing in the Ironman Kona and the Iditarod. "They are both extraordinary endurance events. They both are complex. They both have some risk to mitigate, and I knew very little about dogs and mushing, and even Alaska at the time. But I knew about events, and media, and what it takes to really enable a passion. So, if you think about someone doing an Ironman and someone doing Iditarod, there are a lot of similarities. But there are big differences. At the Ironman, at the end of that day, it is a long, all-day workout. But, you are going to get a bed, a shower, a massage, a nice meal, and warmth. Not so at Iditarod."

What You Will Learn:

What is it like being out in the Iditarod race? "The weather changes are extraordinary. The issues, you have to manage your dogs first. Just to get through that, largely it is an unsupported event across the Alaskian wilderness, off the grid. There are no roads. There is no internet access. There is no service. You are camping out. We are supporting them for safety and from a dog care standpoint. But these guys are on their own."

Rob Urbach explains how each Iditarod team starts with 14 dogs. "They are mixed breeds that are purposely bred for their exercise physiology. These dogs are just aerobic specimens machines. They can go 120-130 miles a day without any problems. So, what you are doing is, it is you and your dog team, your 14 dogs. You are responsible for feeding, snacking, taking care of those dogs along the way. The stops are primarily about dog care. So, they have to stop and do a mandatory vet check. Sometimes the stop is only five minutes. Sometimes there is rest."

What does it take to succeed in Iditarod? "I think you have to be the kind of person that can function on massive sleep deprivation because I think they are sort of sleep deprivation ninjas. Some of the winners have told me they've averaged an hour and 45 minutes a day for 10 straight days. So, they are dealing with those issues because when they stop, they have to feed their dogs. They have to keep making sure that their dogs are eating properly, etc. And they have to decide, just like if you are an offensive coordinator, which dogs do you move around? Do you put the dog in the sled and rest that dog?"

What type of safety precautions are put in place during the race? "Last year we had 57 starters, 24 did not finish. We had three pretty dramatic blackhawk helicopter rescues. So, typically they are out there on their own. But the safety protocols are that they carry an SOS button. There are two buttons on there. One, I am in trouble, not life or death. Come get me. But you don't have to scramble your rescue air helicopters. The other button is come get me now."

Rob Urbach discusses the level of commitment that many Iditarod racers invest."I think you are talking about people who are dog people, number one. They will have a kennel. Typically, some could have between 50-100 dogs, and they will know not just the names but the idiosyncrasies of each dog like you would your kid, and their ability to relate. Some of them are more comfortable with dogs than people. They are just so focused so intensely with that relationship."

The Meaning Behind Iditarod

Rob Urbach talks about the early beginnings of the word Iditarod. "Iditarod is roughly a halfway point. It is an old mining town back in 1908, I think gold was discovered in Iditarod at one point. That started the rush of settlers to Alaska, 10,000 people. It is a ghost town now. No one lives there except when we're there we set up the ghost town camp."

Iditarod Race Dogs

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Rob Urbach also talks about the typical lifestyle of an Iditarod race dog. "I think that every dog would have the inspiration to be an Iditarod dog. They live a pretty good life. They get to hang out with their buddies. They are on a team. They get to see the Northern Lights all winter long. They get to go on journeys, and if any dogs have an abstract thought, you can see the joy in their body language and how they are emotive."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/
Rob Urbach's website: roburbach.com
Rob Urbach's social media: Twitter Linkedin
Rob Urbach's website: iditarod.com

Mike Schauch: Hear an amazing story about a guy who followed his heart to find the right karma in Nepal and pay it forward. Incredible tale.... Jan 22, 2021

Show notes

187: Mike Schauch: Mountaineer and author talks about how he was able to overcome not climbing a mountain in the Himalayas and how it led to connecting with a little girl in Nepal that he and his wife assisted in getting an education.

Mike Schauch

When did Mike Schauch begin to get attracted to the Nepal region? "Since I was about 15 I had wanted to go to Nepal. I don't know what it is about Nepal. But it is just the people, the culture, the mountains of course. Something just drew me, connected with me right in my heart. I have always had this desire to go there. But I remember actually when I was 15 my sister gave me this "Lonely Planet" book and I just remember it was all about trekking in the Himalayas. I remember getting it for Christmas and just tearing through the pages, and I couldn't even read anything because I was going through it so fast. All I could think about is running out of my house in my pajamas with this "Lonely Planet"book and going to the Himalayas.

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Mike Schauch, Mountaineer and author about his experiences in Nepal. "It wasn't until I was in my early 30s before I finally went to the Himalayas. I got to Nepal. Part of the other thing was I never really knew what I wanted to do there. Did I want to climb a mountain? Which mountain? Did I want to go to the Annapurna circuit? But one of the things that I really felt strongly about was just to go somewhere, have an experience off the beaten path, right? And Nepal to me was this kind of mystical, magical place. Maybe I was overly romantic about it. But that was just the kind of feeling I had."

What You Will Learn:

What got Mike Schauch excited about heading out to the Nar Phu? "In 2011, we were sitting down with a gentleman who had just gotten back, he had been trekking through the Himalayas for two decades, and he was telling me about this one little valley called The Lost Valley of Nar Phu, and this valley had just been opened up a few years before that. Prior to that it had been closed off for generations. So, the people had been living very much the same for the last 800 years, and he was just showing me his pictures, and I thought, this is it, this is amazing. This is where I am going to go. My wife and I were sitting there and it was just a decision we made onto itself."

What was it like for Mike Schauch traveling to The Valley of Nar Phu? "We went into this valley. We just had a beautiful experience. I mean, this valley going in there was like stepping back into the 17th century. The people there were just so genuine and so connected to their ancestral roots and again, their traditional ways. There is no electricity out there. To get to the valley, it is about a week trek."

Mike Schauch talks about some of the fascinating things he witnessed in the Himalayas. "We spent two days doing reconnaissance, trying to find this mountain. I was with two sherpa guides. They thought we were trespassing into Tebet because we were going into these obscure valleys, and just saw some of the most amazing things. These herds of bharal, which are these Himalayan mountain sheep, hundreds of them coming down the hillside, things like that. The glaciers, these massive canyons of glaciers are just unreal. We came into contact with snow leopard tracks and things like that. It was just the three of us out there. It felt like we were suspended in time."

What was it like trying to climb the pyramid-shaped mountains in the Himalayas? "As we were making our way closer to the mountains, the more things started falling apart. We were caught in a snowstorm at 17,000 feet. My gear bags with my climbing gear, the mule that was carrying it took off and it was two days behind us. All of these things started unraveling and it forced me to hunker down in this remote outpost, the most remote outpost village in this valley."

Mike Schauch shared some of the differences in life for young people during his trip. "I learned a lot about the ways of village life. I mean, kids, by the time they are six or seven-years-old, they have to start working in the fields. At that time, girls 14 or 15-years-old, they'd get married, start having families, kids of their own. So, again, all of these thoughts were floating around in my mind. So when I discovered that Nar, the village has this little school, I thought, let's go check it out. Let's go see what's there. Maybe there is some hope for these kids."

Communicating in the Village

How were they able to communicate in the village? "One of our sherpa friends, we had to send him up with a letter because we still had to get the parents' consent, and obviously Karma would have to go to boarding school. She would have to leave her village. So, he had to take a full bus ride and hike for five days to deliver a letter and then reverse it on the way back. Her parents were thrilled and they were very happy about it, and they totally agreed that this was the right thing. That was back in 2012 and over the next eight years we have been going back to Nepal every eight to ten months and growing our relationship with Karma."

Giving Back to Nepal

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Mike Schauch also talks about the other kids that he and his wife have been able to help in Nepal. "Chantel and I, obviously we have a connection with Karma and Pemba, and their sister Palma is the next older sister for Karma. We were able to take care of her as well with the education. Then we have two more girls that we are supporting who actually got scholarships to come to Canada and one is doing her pre-med now at Trent University. So, that is kind of our focus. But the larger focus than that is the school, the SMD school."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/
Mike Schauch's website: michaelschauch.com
Mike Schauch's book: A Story of Karma: Finding Love and Truth in the Lost Valley of the Himalaya

Steve Porino: As a member of the US Ski Team to being the lead announcer for downhill racing on NBC plus calling the Tour De France, Steve has lived quite the life Jan 15, 2021

Show notes

186: Steve Porino: NBC Sports Broadcaster and Alpine Ski Racer discusses what it was like for him to go from being among the best ski racers in the midwest, to then becoming a television broadcaster and attending the Olympics on multiple occasions.

Steve Porino

How did Steve Porino get introduced to skiing? "My dad is European. His father was Italian. His mother was Swiss. He grew up between Italy and Switzerland. It was during the war. So the name comes from the Aosta region of Italy and his parents were divorced. It was back and forth, again like I said during the war. Skiing was a big part of his life that his father had introduced him to. He first came to Canada where he met my mother. I happen to be the only American in my family. My sisters are Canadian. My dad's Italian. But skiing was part of his heritage. But he was working as a banker in cities. He was working in New York City. He was taking the family up all the time to go learn how to ski in Vermont, and that is what the family did."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Steve Porino, NBC Sports Broadcaster and Alpine Ski Racer about developing as a skier while not growing up in an area known for skiing. "If you look at all of the great, not all, but many of the great ski racers in the world, it all started in places like that in many ways. It's these sorts of fundamentals, and you are not distracted. Maybe you have a different opinion. But if you grew up in Sun Valley, you are kind of spoiled, right? Life is good. You've got these incredible mountains and sometimes it is hard to do the basics, do the arithmetic if you will, that makes you a great skier."

What You Will Learn:

Steve Porino discusses some of the coaching he benefited from while developing as a skier. "Lindsey Vonn's dad was one of my coaches, and she comes from a tiny little ski resort, and I don't pretend to compare myself to her success. But, a lot of the greats come from these tiny little places where they practice the fundamentals and then in terms of passion, which if you want to reach a high level in anything, you've got to have the passion. From Wilmot Mountain, everything else seemed like the greatest place I'd ever been. That is sort of how I escalated through skiing as I became one of the best in the midwest."

Steve Porino shares his experience of attending the Burke Mountain Academy. "My dad moved back to New York. I wanted to keep ski racing. I couldn't do it in Connecticut. I went to a ski academy, Burke Mountain Academy, the first ski academy in the country where Mikaela Shiffrin 100 years later attended. But that mountain the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont seemed like Nirvana... it was 1800 feet. So I thought that was just the greatest thing in the world."

What was Steve Porino's introduction to downhill skiing? "I had no aspirations of being a great downhiller because I was a little guy. I went on my first downhill and I was really good. Then very quickly, suddenly I was going to a downhill out west, which at that point I hadn't really been out west. As I said, I grew up in these tiny little ski areas and I was in Beaver Creek, Colorado with this downhill that was two minutes and thirty seconds, which would be my Everest-plus. That is long...These speeds are 70-80 miles an hour."

What was life like for Steve Porino after his skiing career? What "It is a rough transition. We have all started our sport long before we made the decision to do so. In adult life, you make a decision to take a track in life. As a kid, you follow your passion in most regards. So, here you are ending a career when most people are starting a career and that is where I was. I was picking away at school and I think I used school to basically put my life on pause, not at the time, because I knew this is where I wanted school to take me. It was just time to delay whatever was going to come next, and I needed that time. I probably needed more time."

Steve Porino discusses pursuing his college education after ski racing. "I started to get into coaching of skiing while I was finishing school at the University of Utah because the U.S. Ski Team ultimately paid for my schooling at the University of Utah. I loved coaching. My fear was that I wasn't going to give myself a chance. I was going to go right back into the same world and not experience anything else. The one thing I knew about myself is that I like to do the thing you and I are doing right now, just talk to people and learn. That was the one great passion I had in addition to my ski racing career was traveling and meeting new people of different cultures."

Alpine Skiing to ESPN

How did Steve Porino make the transition into broadcasting? "One of my idols as a ski racer who was a broadcaster at the time, Todd Brooker was his name. He was a crazy Canuck for people that followed ski racing back in the 1970s and 1980s. I tell this story a lot. He had to go to Burger College and that meant he had to open up a Wendy's up in his town of Kitchener, Ontario and they make you go to college for three months. So he couldn't work for ESPN. Someone threw my name in the hat and said, maybe Porino can do this. They had an audition with a few folks. I got the job. Todd Brooker came back from Burger College. They liked me enough to keep me around. They created a reporter position. It was a whole lot of luck and serendipity, and I had to then learn the craft on the job."

Working at NBC During COVID-19

During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, Steve Porino also talks about adapting his NBC broadcasting during the coronavirus pandemic. "Broadcasters, even broadcast teams, are in separate parts of the country, and there is a production team that is in Stamford, Connecticut. All through the magical engineering of NBC is that we are doing it from our homes. In my case, I had to get rid of all my bikes, buy a shed, and get those out of the garage, and transfer an ethernet cable into my garage. So, between my wax room and my Peloton bike is my NBC studio."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/
Steve Porino's Twitter | Linkedin

Don Dow: My former teammate from the University of Washington describes how he had to make a pivot during Covid and adjust his Event Planning company to position for success in the future... Jan 08, 2021

Show notes

185: Don Dow: Former NFL player and founder of Dow Events talks about the football lessons he has brought with him to business and how he and his company are overcoming the challenges of COVID.

Don Dow

What does Don want people to understand about his accomplishments? "We both played in the NFL, we both got drafted. And the thing that people need to understand is those things don't just happen magically. Hard things are hard, right? They're hard. Starting a business is hard. Sustaining a business is hard. But when you get through to the other side, there's so much reward in terms of the daily discipline, the hard steps you took to get to that place where now you can really reap and go, that was worth it."

On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with Don Dow, former Huskies teammate with Mark Pattison and event production company owner. "My earliest lessons in the event business was being a player and going to the Rose Bowl or going to an Aloha Bowl or going to the Sun Bowl, as we did. Because here's the buses, here's the hotels, here's all the organization, you're going to these parties as a player, organized and otherwise. So for me, my earliest experience in this business I've been in was as a player and being hosted as opposed to being on the other side of it."

What You Will Learn

How did Don transition from playing pro football to events? "Where it really started for me was when I came out of football, a guy in Seattle by the name of Bob Walsh was my agent. And I went to work for Bob shortly after I was released from the Seahawks, right at the end of training camp the year I was drafted. And he said we'll bring you in, we'll give you training, you can do sales and everything else… I went to the 9ers the following year, blew a disc in my back right before the Superbowl in practice, came back, went to work for Bob, and never left."

What is it that sets Don's event company apart? "I think where we're different, especially in the internet age—once the internet happened, all of a sudden there was transparency. You could go find a ticket on StubHub, you could kind of put it together on your own. But in my world, in the Dow Events world, no matter what event we're at, and we really set the tone for this at the Masters, is you land, and my team has you from the time you land until we put you back on the plane. So it's transportation, it's accommodations, it's tickets, it's hospitality, it's dinner reservations. It's a complete, full-service, turnkey program. And that really set the stage for us in where the company's gone in over 25 years."

What was the start of COVID like for Don and Dow Events? "I literally went to Augusta about the 4th or 5th of March, I was getting ready for my 25th consecutive Masters, we had a lot of stuff in the works, you know, clients coming in as always, etc., etc. And the world stopped. And so literally, anybody in my business has a safe deposit box or a safe somewhere full of badges, 2019 badges, that are now worthless. And you've put deposits out for houses and transportation and catering and everything else, you've got client money that's come in to you. And thank goodness as I mentioned earlier I'm definitely a relationship client guy, because I can sit and talk with our clients and roll them, hopefully to 2021. I'm not sure that the Masters is gonna happen with spectators in April. I don't see it happening. So now all of a sudden we're rolling clients to 2022, and in the meantime, we've got to survive."

What does Don predict events will be like after the pandemic? "To the extent that people participate in 2021, I think it will largely be high net worth individuals that come to things like the Masters or CMA Fest or Wimbledon or some of those other things that are on our calendar. I don't see it as being corporate. I think they're gonna be much more cautious. I also think that the second half of 2021 is gonna be like Mardi Gras every day for those high net worth—people just want to get out and go experience stuff… I think 2022 is going to be absolutely nuts."

"I think the work from anywhere is going to stay. I've always said in my business, I could be on a boat and as long as I've got an uplink, I can run Dow Events worldwide. The flipside of that, I was on the phone with a longtime, 20+ year client the other night, he called and we kind of did a year-end chat. And he said to me, 'What's going on with Masters? Are we going?' I said, 'I really don't think so.' I said they'll make an announcement in late January, but I said I'm thinking they're gonna do it like they did in November, maybe expand guests for members and maybe some of their sponsors, but that's gonna be it. He said, 'Well gosh, I've got to get face to face with our customers. This whole thing with Zoom and everything is great, but there's nothing like spending time looking people in the eye.'"

Lessons from the Coach

What did Don Dow learn from his coach when he played for the Washington Huskies? "I think one of the greatest things I learned from Coach James was he trusted his people. He delegated to everybody, all the coaches and everything else, right? And in the end, he was the key decision maker there… I think the biggest thing for me coming out of it was I admired the way that he dealt with relationships. And that's the only way my company has survived over the last 25+ years is relationships."

How have lessons from Coach James translated into Dow Events? "I think that probably the biggest thing that I can say that's helped our success, and I think this goes back to Coach James and everything else, is you do what you say you're gonna do. You always deliver. That has cost me over the years… I've always told my team, if somebody spends $1 with us, they're gonna get $1.10. It's always a bit more. Take that last step just a little bit farther."

Links to Additional Resources:

Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com
Emilia's Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/
The Thursday Speeches: Lessons in Life, Leadership, and Football from Coach Don James: https://bookshop.org/books/the-thursday-speeches-lessons-in-life-leadership-and-football-from-coach-don-james/9780692328354?aid=4638
Don Dow: don@dowevents.com
Dow Events: www.dowevents.com

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