Explore unschooling with Pam Laricchia, Anna Brown, and Erika Ellis. We want to help parents figure out how to apply bigger picture unschooling ideas in their everyday lives.
EU387: Foundations: Seeing Through Someone Else’s Eyes
Jun 19, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Seeing Through Someone Else’s Eyes.
“Seeing through someone else’s eyes” is a shift from the typical phrase, “walking in their shoes.” And it’s a valuable paradigm shift to consider when trying to learn more about the people in our lives. By considering people’s unique personalities, interests, and sensitivities, we can better understand their choices and avoid a lot of conflict and misunderstandings.
We hope you find this conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
Want the full collection of Living Joyfully Foundations podcast episodes as an audiobook (and the transcripts edited into an ebook)? Find them here in the Shop!
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
EPISODE QUESTIONS
Take a moment to think about a close friend or loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions?
Pick an issue or challenge you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why?
Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently?
Let’s explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goals? Strengths and weaknesses? Interests and passions? How do they inform the day to day choices you make?
TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you’re interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
And in today’s episode, we are going to talk about seeing through someone else’s eyes. This was another big paradigm shift for me in how I choose to be in relationship with others, because over the years, I have often heard the advice to walk in the other person’s shoes so that we can better understand them and what they’re experiencing.
But I discovered that, for me, that didn’t go quite far enough. So, I put myself in my partner’s shoes or my child’s shoes, see what challenges and constraints they were facing, and come up with what I thought was a great plan for moving forward. And then they didn’t agree. And I was like, “What? Why not? This is perfect!” I just didn’t understand why they wouldn’t follow my suggestions and I judged them negatively for their lack of cooperation. Like, “Let’s move through this, people! Here’s a great way to do it. You’re just being stubborn.” They must see how well my plan would work out.
So, when that wasn’t working, I dug into it more. And jumping off what we talked about last week about how different people are in so many ways, I realized that putting myself in someone else’s shoes meant that I was still using my experiences and perspectives, my ways of processing, and my preferred ways of engaging with the world. I was still filtering this new view of the world through the lenses that made sense to me.
I discovered that beyond walking in their shoes, I wanted to try seeing through their eyes. Oh my goodness! The picture is so much richer. It holds their experiences and preferences, how they prefer to process information, and how they prefer to engage with the world. It holds their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, their interests and passions.
And their choices now made so much more sense to me, because I can see how they were the best choices for them. In the same situation, I, in their shoes, may well make a very different choice, but that is entirely because I’m me. Because people are different, when I want to connect with someone, when I want to more fully understand their experiences and support them as they move through their days, putting myself in their shoes isn’t as helpful as seeing it through their eyes.
ANNA: Oh my goodness. Yes! I really loved when I first heard you talking about this, because it really puts this very helpful visual on why my attempts at solving things for everybody falls a bit flat. And I love to solve things. And in my early days, my inclination was definitely to look at someone’s concern and set about finding a solution for them. And it was often rooted in how I would want to handle it, how would I want to move through it? But like you said, as soon as you start digging into this, really even at all, you see why it doesn’t work. And, as is so often the case, turning it around really helps me see why.
So, I have this close friend and she moves through the world in a very different way. She is a go-getter. She makes the call. She finishes the thing. She tells people what she needs in this very direct way. So, when I would share something with her, she would offer advice based on how she moves through the world and it would often just leave me feeling misunderstood, really. Disconnected.
It wasn’t that her ideas weren’t valid or even amazing, but they were not likely to work for me, because it just isn’t as easy for me to make that call to someone out of the blue or to be super direct about what I need from them. But when someone understands those pieces about me, they can help me find ways to get what I want that feel comfortable. Maybe there will be some stretching and that’s okay, but it’ll be grounded in who I am and give me the best chance of actually being able to do it and to solve the problem that’s in front of me to begin with.
So, that realization really helped me stop doing it to others. And instead, I focused on listening and learning and seeing through their eyes, helping them find ways that resonated with them and who they are and how they want to move through the world.
PAM: Yes. And I think it is really important to just note that seeing through someone else’s eyes is a skill that we get better with over time. We need to practice with releasing our lenses. Sometimes we’ve got lenses in there that we really don’t know that we have until we start pulling them away. And how can we not value our way of seeing it and being in the world as better? It goes back to last week’s episode. We’re all different, and that’s okay. One way isn’t better than the other, except that that’s our natural tendency to do it. So, it can be hard to just release that valuing, because it really is better for us.
And also, our relationships with our loved ones become more connected just because we come to better understand their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions, which means we can more accurately bring those aspects into the picture and vice versa. We are sharing ours and they learn more about us. It just takes time, doesn’t it? We always like to think, okay, this makes sense. I’m going to do this right now. Let’s go.
ANNA: Forever more! But it does take time and I think with everything, be gentle with ourselves as we figure it out. And do little steps, like starting with, “Well, this is how I might move through that.” Just that little qualification, being clear about that as opposed to saying, “I think you should do this,” which is sometimes where we go, but that’s a great start. That little qualification, “This is how I might move through that.” It leaves room for connection and learning more, because at that point, they can say, “I don’t think I could do that.” And then you’re able to learn more and have more of that conversation.
But dropping the judgment piece that you were just talking about, I think, is really the most important and sometimes the hardest. “Well, if they would just do it the way I want them to, it would be solved.” Well, if the “this” is not something that feels good to them, it won’t solve it and it actually will just leave the person feeling like there’s something wrong with them or that they’re completely misunderstood and it definitely can impact our connection and relationship. And there isn’t anything wrong with them. There isn’t only one way to do something. They just may not want to move through the world in the same way that I do.
So, we can let go of that judgment and commit to learning more about who they are and what feels best to them. Sharing our ideas, absolutely, but with this open, curious mindset that they might be seeing it in a very different way.
PAM: Yes. Exactly. This tool of seeing through their eyes, how it works, is also really helpful when we just want to understand a choice they’re making. Maybe they’re not looking for our input.
So, when we see a choice and it doesn’t make sense to us, maybe it’s not a choice we would ever make, but when we take a moment to see it through their eyes, all of a sudden it can make so much more sense.
And, that said, sometimes no matter how hard we try to see through their eyes, we just don’t understand why they want to do the thing they want to do. So, in those moments, what works for me is leaning on my understanding again, that people are different. And not taking things personally, like we talked about. They’re not making this choice to piss me off. They’re making it because it makes sense to them.
So, that helps me move through any judgment of them that I might be feeling, and instead get curious. Because judgment is not only disconnecting, it’s often a clue that I’m just missing something. So, I might ask more questions to try to better understand and absolutely, sometimes that helps. Sometimes I was just missing this little piece. It’s like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
Sometimes they can’t explain things in a way though that makes sense to us. That again, doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. I can choose to trust them to make their own decisions, and we will all learn more as things unfold over time. That is beautiful. When we see how things unfold, when we see their next step and their next step, we see a bigger picture of what’s happening.
And if things do go a bit sideways for them, when I’m not bringing that judgmental energy of, “I told you so. I had a better idea,” when we’re not bringing that to the conversation, we can support them as they tweak their path over time to get where they want to go.
Or maybe I discover a new aspect of them that I didn’t know about. Maybe it’s a new aspiration that’s been bubbling up. Maybe it’s a fear, a new interest, a sensitivity, like we talked about before, that may be developing.
So, when we’re open and curious about the people that we’re in relationship with, we all grow and learn and change alongside each other, which is so much more connecting and fun than trying to coax and control each other to do what we think is best.
ANNA: So much yes. My goal is connection and part of that is understanding these differences and not only learning to understand, but the next step is really celebrating. And when we can celebrate even when we don’t fully understand, that makes such a difference. The world is richer for us all playing to our strengths and supporting one another to do that. This is especially true for the people we are choosing to share our life with. But, I mean, for me, it really goes for all people.
It’s back to that generous assumption and cultivating an open, curious mindset, so that we can begin to understand why people are seeing the world differently. Why are they choosing differently? And knowing that those different ways of seeing and doing are not attacks on our way of seeing and doing. Both can and do exist. And to be in relationship with someone, celebrating that instead of judging helps us avoid conflicts and misunderstanding, and it really deepens that trust and bond we have with each other, because we feel deeply understood, which is so important to us as humans, often.
PAM: So much. Just take a moment to sink into that and just feel, somebody knowing us to that level, which also includes us knowing ourselves. We kind of need to get there ourselves before we can even share those pieces of information with others. But, as you said, it does help us avoid so much conflict and misunderstanding and taking things personally and judging others and having expectations of others, and instead, deepens our connection, deepens our trust, deepens that whole bond that we have, within our whole family.
And then, as you said, it’s our choice how deep and strong a relationship we want with anybody who passes through our lives. So many of these tools are also useful, at least I have found, in my extended relationships as well.
So, here are some questions that you might want to ponder as you explore this really fun difference between walking in someone’s shoes and seeing through their eyes. So, the first one is, take a moment to think about a close friend or a loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions? It’s really fun to do that. And then, you know what? It might be really fun to check in with them. And say, “Hey, this is what I’m thinking. This is how I’m seeing you. What have I nailed? What have I maybe gone a little sideways on?” It could spark a really, really fun conversation.
ANNA: Yeah. I think that’s a great conversation.
PAM: Yeah. Especially when we just come at it that way, rather than it coming out after a conflict or around a conflict or something. There is no energy and judgment in the air. It’s just like, let’s have this fun conversation. Okay. Next.
Pick an issue or challenge that you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why do you think that is? Just start playing with that, as well. Where are the the places where you see the same things and where might we see things differently? And then maybe play it through a little bit more, like the choices that people made throughout whatever issue or challenge it was, do they make more sense to you now that you’re looking at it through their eyes?
ANNA: I think what happens when we do this piece, where we step back and go, how are they seeing it? It takes some of the charge out of it, because when we are only seeing through our eyes, we’re bulldozing down the tunnel to get to our end point. But when we step back and go, oh my gosh, I can see how they’re seeing that in a really different way, suddenly, the charge comes out of it and we can get on the same team. We can go, okay, I’m seeing it this way. You’re seeing it that way. Let’s talk about that. It just changes that whole dynamic of the head butting that can happen, you know?
PAM: Yeah. And just think how that helps everyone involved feel seen and heard, no matter what the end path is. When we recognize how other people are experiencing it, that can be so valuable. All right, next.
Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision, and now let’s do a thought experiment with that. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently? One thing that’s important for us and why that playful attitude helps is it’s not valuable for us to judge our past actions and thoughts. We’re learning more now. We’re playing with things now. The stuff that we’re figuring out, we can bring with us into future encounters, future engagements, conflicts, choices, all those pieces.
So we can, in our own thought experiments, play around with anything. It’s okay that, man, I felt really judgey about that person that day or this thing that I saw. Maybe I know nobody who was involved, but it’s worth it to think, okay, where did that judgment come from? What does that mean for me? Why is that important to me? All those pieces can be really helpful for understanding ourselves and for making maybe different choices as we move forward.
ANNA: Right. That’s what I was going to say. I think when we play around with some of these ones in the past, again, this is not to judge how we handled something in the past. This is not to make ourselves feel bad. But it’s giving us a chance in a lower charged environment to look at that. And I think when we recognize where the judgment came in and recognize how it maybe didn’t serve us in that situation, when we feel it bubbling up when something comes up ahead of us, we can go, oh, okay, this judgment, do I want to look into this now? Do I want to dig back and peel some layers back now? And so, I think that practice can help us actually help in the moment or the things that are to come.
PAM: Exactly. And lastly, let’s explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goal, strengths and weaknesses, interests and passions? How do they inform the day-to-day choices you make? I think sometimes we can kind of disconnect. We can think of these big things like, what are my goals? What are my strengths? How do I like to do things? What are my passions? And yet, we don’t bring those down into our day-to-day. Or we don’t make the connection. They may be subconsciously directing our choices throughout the day, because our mind knows these are the things that we value.
But when we can recognize that, we can also notice that we’re making more progress than we think towards our goal, et cetera. So, understanding how all those pieces weave together can be so valuable for ourselves. So, it’s absolutely helpful to do this.
ANNA: Yeah, and I think, too, it kind of reminds me of the priorities episode, too, with that intentionality we’re bringing it, but I think what I really want to say about this question, and we’ll keep talking about this, we need to develop our own self-awareness in order to be able to communicate with our partners. So, in order to be able to say what’s important to us and what we’re doing so that they can understand, because none of us are mind readers. So, this work of really digging into, what am I excited about? What’s making me tick? How am I looking at these things? is so valuable on so many layers for us and for those in our lives.
PAM: Exactly. Yes. We hope you have so much fun with these questions and we would be happy to carry on the conversation, whether you want to comment on YouTube, whether you want to comment on Instagram. We would love to hear some of your processing through these questions if you’d like to share. And thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!
EU386: Building Confidence
Jun 05, 2025
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about building confidence. We had an interesting month in the Living Joyfully Network recently where we dove deep into this topic and it was fascinating how many layers we found to uncover. In this episode, we talk about letting go of comparisons, cultivating trust in ourselves and our children, remembering our ‘why’, and lots more.
We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ERIKA: Hello everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Larrichia. Today we’re going to be talking about building confidence, which was a really interesting topic of conversation on the Network recently, and so I’m really excited to dive into that.
But first, I want to encourage you to check out our online shop where you can find more information about joining the Living Joyfully Network, a selection of unschooling and relationship courses, Pam’s books about unschooling, and a variety of coaching options. The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.
And now, Pam, would you like to get us started with our conversation?
PAM: Sure, sure. I am excited to dive into this because confidence is an interesting topic and to see where it comes from and how we can build it and how it comes together.
Because there are actually many different aspects to building our confidence. So, I thought I would start with one shift that I found really fundamental to building my confidence and that was letting go of comparison. Especially when we first came to unschooling, it was really easy to compare myself and my family to others and kind of find myself wanting, and what would happen each and every time is it would just send me spinning, right?
I’d start questioning my choice. It’s like, why are we doing this and undermining my confidence in things working out, right? So as I came to notice that pattern, I dug a bit deeper. And soon realized that comparing myself or my kids to other people just invites judgment into the conversations that I’m having with myself.
As I’m processing and trying to figure things out. It ended up being more noise in my head that distracted me and even sometimes drowned out my own thoughts and perspectives, they could get really loud and I learned, I noticed, I know that my brain needs some time and some space to think things through.
I want to feel my feelings, want to understand my emotions, all those pieces. And I found I wasn’t getting to the processing pieces. I wasn’t developing that deeper level of self-awareness when I was staying stuck at that more superficial level of comparing myself to others and then just trying to fix those differences.
That was very surface level. Here’s what they’re doing and I feel I’m not doing it, so I should do that thing, right? There wasn’t a lot of learning in there for me. And I came to see that part of building confidence in myself is better understanding myself. So that little interesting nuance for me is that it is not about forever shutting out what others might share with me.
At first it just feels like judgment because I’m noticing it. But what I found in the longer run was that it was more about recognizing that what they’re sharing with me is merely information. I didn’t have to take that in as judgment. I didn’t have to compare myself immediately. I could just see what it was, because so often, as we’ve talked about before, that kind of information often tells us more about them.
Then it tells us about us, and that’s that pendulum swing we have talked about before as well. At first, we sometimes need to swing all the way to the other side to spend some quiet time without other voices so that we can start to more clearly hear our own. And when I think back, I definitely remember that when the kids left school. We pretty much cocooned as a whole family basically for about six months.
It was really helpful for me to remove myself from those outside voices for a while when I was so busy, learning so much about unschooling, learning about my kids, learning about myself. Because I noticed that when others expressed confusion, I immediately left to compare myself and my kids to them, and I immediately felt defensive and I didn’t yet have the language to express our new direction with any confidence.
So, letting go of comparisons with others. Really was a big first step for me on the way to building confidence in the whole shebang.
ANNA: In all the things. I think it’s so valuable to spend some time here thinking about what confidence looks like and feels like and how we can get there and cultivate it, because it really does change how you move through the world. When you’re feeling confident about your relationships, about your situation, about the decisions that you’re making, it changes everything.
It just doesn’t invite all of that. It just doesn’t invite it all in. I think it really changes our experience, so it’s worth digging in. I’m glad we’re doing that and I think comparison is such a great place to start because if we think about it, that’s so external. And like you said, surface level, whatever we’re seeing from other people is a tiny slice of their life.
Often what they’re choosing to put on Instagram, or even if it’s what they’re choosing to tell the story at Christmas, it’s very surface level. It’s cultivated to create an image and that’s great because I love them writing their story and feeling good about what’s working for them.
There’s no critique about that. It’s just me recognizing, oh, okay, that’s what’s happening for them. That’s interesting for them. That’s what’s going on. But also knowing it’s not the whole story, but what I can do is focus on my kids and see what’s happening here.
What do we love? What’s going on for us? And it really changes that piece because if I am out looking and comparing, I actually really am not present with my kids or with what’s happening in my life and in our home. And so that was the first thing for me, realizing just can almost energetically feel it pulling me away from actually where I want to be, which is present. Where I wanted to be at the time, present with my kids and looking at our life and enriching our life.
So, I do love that we’re starting, with letting go of comparison.
ERIKA: Yeah, I love this topic as a whole, this building confidence. It was interesting on the network to see people noticing it’s that lack of confidence that’s really causing a lot of the issues that are coming up in their unschooling lives.
When you have that feeling of, I have to do things like this and then, oh, but I should be doing this. And just kind of flailing around with this kind of decision making and then thinking we’re doing it wrong. We need to do it differently. It’s that lack of confidence. And so the letting go of comparisons is such a great little place to start looking.
Just because people are so different. And so I really think, at the beginning of my unschooling journey, I did not have that so clearly in my mind, this idea of people are different. But that’s such a huge paradigm shift that I think would’ve helped me with this earlier on if I had only understood that part because comparison doesn’t really make sense anymore once you realize how different people are.
And so what works for one person won’t work for another person. Then when we’re looking at what other people are doing, it’s just that information. It’s just noticing, there’s one thing that’s possible to do and see how it’s working for them or not working for them.
It has nothing to do with me, my kids, our family, or what’s going on with us? And so once we can tune in more to what’s true of my kids, what’s true of me, and really start making decisions that make sense to me, rather than trying to copy the decisions that someone else made that made sense to them.
It’s like all of a sudden that confidence starts building because I’m listening. This makes more sense. It’s not just following these steps that logically don’t make sense to my brain. And so, I just love that and just remembering like what you were saying, Anna, what we’re seeing of other people is also just one story of their lives.
That’s not the whole picture. And so yeah, that comparison is, it can really derail us along the path. I love the reminder to let go of that.
ANNA: I love what you said there about it just makes sense and I would even argue that it’s easier. Because I think if we’re trying to do something that works for someone else, we can feel like, this is hard, this is not flowing.
Why is this not feeling good? Why are we getting resistance here? What is happening? My kids don’t want to do that, or this is not happening. But when you’re really tuned in and doing what works for you, it’s like, oh, this feels easy. This feels fun. We’re still going to have our regular bumps, but it’s not going against the flow.
Something else that’s a part of this is. A trust, right? A trust in ourselves, a trust in our children, a trust in the decisions that we’re making so that when we have that really innate trust, if we are confident, we project that confidence outside of ourselves.
When we can think about it. How do we build that trust? A lot of that is really just being with our kids, just seeing what they’re doing, really bringing in what’s happening here. And look, they are learning, they are growing, we are improving our relationships. We are getting through hurdles.
And I think one piece of this, I want to say that I think happens more at the beginning of the journey, sometimes we’re trusting in our decision. I know I’ve made the right decision and now everything’s going to be great. I’ve pulled my kids out of school, or whatever change I’ve made and now it’s going to be great.
And it’s like, no, it’s not exactly that. We don’t get to do that. It’s more that we start building trust in our relationships. I think that’s why we talk so much about how to cultivate these relationships. Because the trust that I had was a very deep trust that we could figure anything out.
It was not about school or not school, it was about how we could figure out how to meet our needs, how to work together, how to move through difficult situations, how to move through conflict, how to move through things that life threw at us, and that deep trust was just unshakeable. Then when people would come at me with things they didn’t like what we were doing or didn’t understand what we were doing, I was so solid that I know us. I know our relationships. I know we can figure out what’s best. So, it’s not about a particular thing. Again, unschooling, going to school, doing whatever. It’s really about that. We are so in tune. We figure things out, we know what’s happening. We work together. If we have found a need that isn’t being met.
We’ll figure it out. So, that deep trust, I think, is a part of this too.
PAM: Yeah, and I think that trust flows so nicely after you can let go of those comparisons because now, I can see, I can hear my own voice. I can now lean, as you said, lean into the kids and as you mentioned Erika, that realization that people are different.
That just releases so much weight for other people’s, um, shares. And like you said, Anna, nobody’s trying to lie or fake things or anything. They’re just excitedly sharing what they’re wanting to share, et cetera. So yeah, that’s where we can now lean in and when we’re hearing our voice and now we can learn so much.
We can learn so much about our kids, ourselves, learn the tools and the processes to be in a relationship with them too. Figure things out. Right? And that is where I remember, like you were saying, that’s where we learn the language. So, that we can not feel defensive and also have the language to share if people are interested in learning more.
That confidence is building and building and building. When we’re shutting out those noises and now actually leaning in, hearing ourselves, our actual kids in front of us, and instead of just trying to copy other things, we’re actually in there learning these kinds of tools to be in relationship, to build connection.
And that’s where the trust comes. It’s like, oh look, we figured it out. We figured it out. Things went sideways and the world didn’t end, and we figured it out. Just through that experience for me anyway, it just built more and more trust and the confidence came along with it.
ERIKA: Oh, I really love the trust part. I’m just thinking, I think back in the old days, I would’ve thought confidence comes from thinking that I did everything right and so I can feel good about where I am and what I’m doing because I made all the correct decisions, you know? And so, trusting that there’s no one right way, and trusting that this is a long game, trusting that there’s plenty of time, those are the things that if I can trust in that, that’s going to be what builds my confidence because, there are going to be ups and downs.
There are going to be things that we think are going to work and then they don’t work, or they work for a while and then they don’t work. And so that doesn’t mean my confidence should be shattered. That just means, this is life. And so being confident is more about trusting that we can make it through when things don’t go the way that we expect them to or that this kind of longer game and plenty of time view of childhood, which I think is really kind of a radical change from the way we grew up.
A lot of us grew up in school. It makes it feel like there is definitely one right way and time is of the essence and you better check these things off in the correct order at the correct time. My trust in our unschooling journey has taken a lot of paradigm shifts in my own mindset in order to get to that place.
I wanted to also bring us to the idea of understanding our why. Because I think that’s such a huge part of building our confidence too. It’s something that I love. Every time we talk about it on the network, it’s always such an amazing, fun conversation to read why people came to unschooling.
What is the reason that they are doing this with their children? What did they see in their children that brought them here? What happened in our own lives that brought us to these ideas?
And so I think when we really dig in and start asking ourselves these questions like, why is unschooling appealing? Why are we doing the things we do with our kids? What makes our kids tick? Who are we, what things do we like to do in our lives?
Digging down to that, why gives us a lot more confidence and revisiting it can be a little confidence boost. When we are feeling a little bit shaky. That’s why we always go back to that, when people are feeling shaky, like what is your why?
And that grounds you back into that confidence about your decisions.
PAM: I think that has always been such a great tool. When I remember to do it, when I start getting knocked off, when my confidence is faltering, when I’m wobbling like that, once I remember that as a tool to help me rebuild things, it is always so valuable because fundamentally there is a reason for this choice in the first place.
And revisiting that reminds me, right? Oh yes, this is why we are doing this thing. And even playing around with it like, so what if we weren’t doing this thing anymore? That helps me remember, because like you’re saying, as things are flowing before. It can start to feel easier. Right? And you forget how challenging things might have been before you made these lifestyle changes.
And then if your confidence gets knocked for a bit and you kind of forget, go back to the beginning and really steep in that understanding why we made this choice. Even though this moment seems challenging, even though my confidence is a little knocked around right now, fundamentally, this is the life that I want to live with my family.
This is the kind of person I want to be, et cetera. It just really helps me reground really. I think that’s what it is, and that helps so much with my confidence.
ANNA: Yeah, and honestly that’s a tool we can use in any realm of our life. Because all of us are making thoughtful choices about how we want to move through the world.
And so right when something knocks that confidence a little bit, we can sometimes throw the baby out with the bath water, and question the whole decision. But I think if we can pause and take a little bit of time to say, okay, but why did I make this decision? And I love the point that you made, Pam, that it can feel easier.
So sometimes we forget because that is so true. And then it just takes that little bit of reflection to go, oh my gosh, we were living in a really difficult time before we made this decision. And look at all the things that have changed. So, this little bump is nothing compared to when we were kind of flailing around, figuring out what worked for all of the personalities and all of the different pieces and all of our brains.
So, I love that point because I think, again, when we get knocked by something. It just shakes us. And so we just start, why did I change? I need to go back and just take that time, pause, really soak in why.
I think it can be valuable to write it down, throughout the journey at different times because our whys can change, and even the decision can ultimately change. It’s not about you have a why, you make a decision, you stay with it forever. But as you tune into the why, you will fine tune the journey, which may involve changing parts of the decision. But it’s so important, I think, to just slow down when you’re feeling knocked by something, because then you’re going to get your confidence back and from that confident place you can all decide if this is still the path we want to take. And that just feels very different than deciding and then running.
PAM: Yeah, I think so. I remember those moments, I was going to say, especially early on, but I mean, you still can get knocked. But that’s why, that’s why I liked understanding our why. Sometimes we talked about remembering our why, but I like understanding because like you said, Anna, it can definitely change over time as we learn more, as we gain more experience with it.
It’s like, oh yeah, this is what I want. Revisiting it and like you said, even writing it down or wherever your brain likes to keep things. To just keep track or keep those things top of mind for a while. It is really helpful just to bring that back top of mind to help recover and build our confidence again.
And I think when we bring all that together, I know in my experience, that’s when, as my confidence comes back, as I’m remembering why we’re doing it, as I’ve sunk back into that trust that we’ve cultivated, I’ve let go of the voices recognize that people are different and the things they’re sharing are great for them.
That doesn’t automatically mean that they’re great for us anyway, through all that process, I really start to find my voice again because that’s one of the first things I lose when my confidence gets knocked, right? I can’t share with any enthusiasm because I am not confident in our choices or how things are going in this particular season.
So that, for me, is kind of a sign that my confidence is coming back and just having these various tools to help me find my voice again. And it’s, I really like that image because it’s finding our voice with the other outside world, extended family, whatever, but it’s also finding our voice again, maybe within our family.
That kind of knocked our confidence again. Knock our confidence so we can find ourselves again, ground ourselves again. And then that really does, at least for me, help me find my voice again so I can continue showing up in all the various moments of life.
ANNA: Right. And now I’m thinking it’s almost circular in a way, and that if you find that you have lost your voice or you’re feeling shaky about your voice, then I’m wondering is that because maybe I’m taking on other people’s expectations, or I’m trying to present something that maybe I don’t fully believe or that doesn’t fit with my family, or I’m trying to perform in a way, that’s what I’m supposed to do. And so then that gets you to start the process again, letting go of the comparisons, letting go of the side noises.
How do I build trust in myself and in my kids? And so I love that because I think from that grounded place of just trusting in your relationships and really understanding your family, you do have a voice. And whether you choose to shout it from the mountaintops or in a casual conversation or just your own self-talk, which is so important, you know that you have this strong self-talk of, like, look at this, look at what we’re creating. Look at what we’re creating together. Look at this life that we have. And so wherever it is, if you’re feeling shaky, then run through it again because you’ll get back there as you tune into your kids.
I really love that piece.
ERIKA: Yeah. Oh, me too. Finding our voice doesn’t mean we have to be going and telling everyone either. And so I think that’s a fun nuance that finding my voice, to me, really is that self-talk, inner voice, that to me is the most important one.
And so, just clarifying for myself why I’m doing the things I’m doing. Gaining that confidence and trust in my ability to do things and having that be reflected in my self-talk, that is really where that finding my voice comes from. And then I feel like that grounded, calm, confident self can succeed in any interaction, right?
It’s not like I need to share everything with every person I meet, but I’m feeling good about myself. I’m feeling okay and my decision’s feeling good. That grounded calm energy helps, Pam, like you were saying, in our own families, finding our voice in our own families.
I think it makes such a huge difference. With all of the kids’ ups and downs, just being able to be to know that we’ve got this, that kind of energy just feels so reassuring to them as well. And it just helps me in conversations with everyone. So, I really love the finding our voice piece.
This has been a really fun conversation and we hope you enjoyed it and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some new ideas to consider on your own journey. And if you enjoyed this type of conversation, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the different things we encounter in our unschooling lives.
And you can learn more at livingjoyfullyshop.com. You can just click on community at the top of the page, and we hope to meet you there. So thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.
EU163 Flashback: Growing Up Unschooling with Adrian Peace-Williams
May 22, 2025
This week, we share a conversation that Pam had with Adrian Peace-Williams back in 2019. At the time, she was 24 years old and in college. Pam and Adrian talked about her childhood unschooling, her choice to go to high school, her years of traveling the world after high school, where she was at the moment in her journey, and lots more. Her understanding of herself and her needs was so inspirational.
We hope you enjoy the conversation!
QUESTIONS FOR ADRIAN
Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?
What were some of your interests growing up and how did you pursue them?
Over the years, was there a time you found your unschooling lifestyle challenging? How did you move through that?
I know that you enjoy traveling. What is it that you love about it and can you tell us some of the trips you’ve been on?
You’re in college (university?) now and home for the holidays. What are you studying and how did you find the transition to school?
What do you appreciate most about living an unschooling lifestyle growing up?
What are your plans for the next year or two?
As a grown unschooler, what piece of advice would you like to share with unschooling parents who are just starting out on this journey?
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Welcome, I am Pam Laricchia from LivingJoyfully.ca and today I am here with Adrian Peace-Williams. Hi, Adrian!
ADRIAN: Hi, Pam. How is it going?
PAM: It is going wonderfully. Adrian, if people do not know, is one of my friend Alex’s daughters. I have enjoyed getting little updates over the years as to what she has been up to. I am thrilled that she agreed to come on the podcast to talk about her experience growing up unschooling. So, to get us started Adrian …
Can you share a little bit about you and your family?
ADRIAN: Yes. I grew up in Nova Scotia and I have two sisters. I am the middle child and I am twenty-four at the moment. I was homeschooled up until I was fifteen then I decided to go to public school. I did that and that was a whole adventure. I am attending university. We live in the woods. I love being outside and reading books and learning and I love my sisters dearly and my parents as well of course.
Pam:
What were some of your interests growing up and how did you pursue them?
ADRIAN: It changed of course as I grew up but a theme for my whole life has been the outdoors. That was a big one for me when I was little too. Luckily, I did grow up surrounded by woods in a pretty rural location. I was able to go outside all the time and play in the woods.
My parents would facilitate that and bring home books on trees and birds and plants. I would kind of look at them and think this is cool but mostly just wanted to be outside. Now I am valuing those books a little bit more and turning more towards the books. I want to know all the details now.
Being outside was kind of an easy one. I could just be outside. I also loved drawing and painting and so I would do that a lot as a kid. Mum would often take us to art galleries so I could see different paintings. We had painting board games where we could pretend it was an art auction kind of thing. We actually did that the other day too.
PAM: Masterpiece, we loved that game.
ADRIAN: Yes, Masterpiece.
We would just draw and paint a lot. I went to a lot of art camps as well. We could choose what camps in the summer we wanted to go to and I would usually go to the visual arts and also theater too. I really enjoyed being in theater so I took some improv classes.
Again, mum and dad would say, “Okay these are all these classes you can take and here are your options.” I would always choose an arts one. I took painting classes. As I got older, I got involved in community theater which was amazing. One of them is just a woman’s group where they put on a variety show every year. The profits go to woman’s charities that they pick. So, I love that.
I liked to read too, so I would read a lot or get mum and dad to read to me. I loved reading so much. I would actually sit for so long and being read to, that mum and dad were like, “Okay I cannot read to you any more I am too tired.” I would want them to sit there for like six hours and just read to me. So, eventually I got more into audio books and then just reading to myself.
PAM: I remember that transition for my daughter, Lissy too. I was reading the Harry Potter books to them for the longest time, for hours. Then my voice would go and even water was not helping it. Then we found the audio books at the library and then, she could just go for hours and hours and hours.
ADRIAN: Yes, same. I think those were my main things that I love. Of course, just playing games and hanging with family. Canoeing, I loved camping too. I would always if there was an option of, “Hey what do we want to do as a family?” I would always choose to all go camping together and be outside. Nature awareness camps too, those I loved. I learned a lot through them.
PAM: That is awesome.
Was there a time over the years that you found your unschooling lifestyle challenging?
ADRIAN: Yes, I was thinking about this question, because of course life is challenging. And it is also hard to separate okay is this because I was homeschooled or unschooled or is this just because life is hard.
PAM: It is true, it is just about living, it is true.
ADRIAN: I think I thought about my transitions in life. And those, I think have been the hardest times for me. Transitioning from when I chose to go to high school. I was fifteen and kind of felt I needed something more but I did not know what that was. And so how do I move forward through that? Okay, what I am doing now is not quite working, how do I figure that out?
Then once I did graduate high school and was like okay, I have done this stage of my life, what is next? Then after traveling a lot I am like, okay I am ready to not travel but what is the next thing? It was these transitions I think, that have been the points in my life that was kind of hard to go through.
I think the things that helped me were remembering what brings me joy and what my values are and giving myself time to listen to myself. I think I learned I personally take a lot of time to come to decisions sometimes. It is important for me to give myself that time. And to remember that is okay to make a mistake and decide something and start it and then no this obviously is not the right thing. Then do something else and maybe that keeps happening and then eventually you will find it and you will love it.
PAM: Yes, you hone in on things over time but through your experiences right but I think that time piece is such an important point. Because you do have to keep giving yourself permission because that is not something society kind of in general supports, does it? It is like boom, boom, boom, right?
ADRIAN: Yes, and I think during those transition periods, sometimes I can feel this pressure. Okay, what are you going to do, what are you going to do now? I think remembering to protect myself from that and realize I am going through my own journey right now and that is okay and I do not need to please these people in society that think I need to being doing this or be doing that. I think giving myself time and just remembering yes, what brings me joy and trying to follow those things, trying to follow those paths.
PAM: I think that is such a great observation about what works for you. Knowing that it is okay to not know and that is okay to just kind of follow that joy. And say okay, ‘I think I am going to try this that might bring something into my life that I will value.’ Then it is like, no, that is enough. That is not what I was looking for out of that experience, right? We are, as a society, goal obsessed. I need to know where I am going and I need to doggedly pursue that all the time. And to change my mind or make mistakes are some horrific thing, you know.
ADRIAN: Yes.
PAM: Rather than just life experience and me getting to know myself better and what brings me joy better.
ADRIAN: I think I always thought if I am doing something that makes me happy, I will probably make the world a little more happy because I will be happy and that will just be spread.
PAM: It trickles out.
ADRIAN: I thought that was a good way to guide myself. But I think it might be different for other people too.
PAM: Oh yes and all you can share is your own experience, right?
ADRIAN: Yes
PAM: So yes, you mentioned that you know it was one of those transition pieces where you decided to try out high school.
Could you talk a little bit more about that experience? Parents might be curious about how you found that transition.
ADRIAN: Yes, it was really interesting actually and relatively easy, I guess. I think I was at a point where I had a couple of friends that had moved away and I was kind of lacking in my social community. I had a couple of friends who were in high school and thought you know what, this could be interesting, why not just try this. I think I went into it with a very casual mindset.
Which going back is a really interesting thing and not a lot of people have that experience with high school. It was like a summer camp or like a class, you know. I thought, I will just try this and see how it goes and if I do not like it, I can just stop because I am getting a perfectly great education.
PAM: Because you just can.
ADRIAN: Because I just can and so I think just having that relaxedness or relaxation around it was really helpful. I did not feel a lot of pressure necessarily. I think I had some misconceptions about high school. Like I thought okay these people have been in class learning their whole lives. I was curious to see what my skill level would be. Because we were very free in terms of our structured learning which is very different from high school.
When I went, I picked classes that I thought I would be interested in. Which were some art, some drama and some food science I think and an ocean science class. I realized that I know how to learn and they are teaching and so it was actually really easy. Oh, I just need to know how to listen and how to take notes or how to ask questions, how to talk to people and have fun. I got this, I know these things.
PAM: I love that.
ADRIAN: Yes, so it was really cool that I got to have that experience. I also had a lot of help too. My older sister also transitioned to high school and she was there and I had some good friends there so they were kind of able to help. I did know people so I was not going into this totally new space. And my teachers also were amazing.
My spelling and reading was not at the level of my other peers and they could have been much harder on me about my spelling but I think they knew that I understood all the material and they could see it was getting better and it was. I found that it easily got better really quickly and was fine. I also had lots of help from my community with that transition. I met lots of great people too. It was interesting to get to know a lot of people my own age. I think homeschooling I had a lot of friends that were a bit older and a bit younger and kind of usually hang out in a group of multi-aged people.
And so, then we were all the same age and it was interesting. I think I realized that Nova Scotia where I grew up is a different too. I was exposed to a very different community which I really valued. I think it made me realize that I knew myself a lot better than I thought I did. Or I did not even realize that I knew myself but when I was with a lot of other people that were still learning who they were it made me realize, ‘Oh, I have had this time to just be with myself and not always be comparing myself to people.’ Yes, I think I realized I had a bigger sense of self than I knew I did.
PAM: Yes.
ADRIAN: Which was really interesting. Yes. I went in at half way through grade ten and then I did eleven and twelve. By year twelve, I think hard part for me, I lost a bit of the mentality that my parents tried to teach me through homeschooling. I think I started caring too much about the things I did not actually care about. If that makes sense.
PAM: Yes, yes.
ADRIAN: Yes, but I am also glad that I had that experience too, I also learned from that. I think now I know a little bit. Okay this is what a public school can be like and this is what homeschooling can be like. Now I have these two perspectives which have been really valuable in my life as well.
PAM: That is so interesting. I love the way you were able to articulate that. Those are really great pieces to differentiate between the different kind of lifestyles and be able to choose it. And to choose to stay, to know that you could leave if you wanted to helps you almost be there to observe and to notice those things. You knew. It just feels like it is a choice. You come to the whole experience with a different mindset. A more open kind of mindset. It sounds like that helped you.
ADRIAN: Yes, completely.
PAM: Became more self-aware too about yourself within the bigger picture of it all, right?
ADRIAN: Yes, and I think it was a concept that a lot of my peers had never considered. When I was explaining, I am here to kind of try it, they were like, “What? Oh my god.” Some really interesting, fun conversations came out of it. It was almost comical because I am just doing this. It was good.
PAM: Oh yes. That is so interesting, so interesting. Okay so after your high school experience you ended up doing some extended traveling, right? And that was part of that transition out again.
I would love to hear a little bit about your traveling time. What is it that you loved about it? And maybe a little bit about the trips that you went on.
ADRIAN: Yes. I did a lot of traveling and I guess it was a transition. I was done with high school and I think I knew that I needed to ground myself a bit from that experience because towards the end I was feeling not quite myself. I was ready for a less structured learning environment.
I just got caught up and I was like, ‘Okay, I just need to see the world a little bit.’ Because I traveled a bit with my family when I was young and really liked it. Liked seeing new places and learning new things so yes, traveling sounded really good because what is the rest of the world doing. I am here but what else is going on.
So, I went to New Zealand with Unschooling Adventures which is run out of the states. I went there for six weeks. It was with a youth travel program, they organized the trip. We were in charge of certain things. The goal of it was to learn how to backpack and hike and travel as a young person and how to do that. And how to meet other young unschoolers or people who had been in public school—other young people who were wanting to travel and learn more about the world.
It was fantastic. We backpacked across the south island of New Zealand. I learned how to live out of a backpack and hike with one and how to cook on the trial and how to navigate from different places. How to stay in a hostel and all these traveling skills and also it just really reminded me that there are so many different ways to look at the world and be in the world.
It was really lovely after high school where I think my world view narrowed at the end. This really broadened it and my leaders especially were just amazing people and had great stories and great experiences that they shared with me. I was like, ‘YES! This is fantastic!’ It was perfect. It was what I needed. We were outside all the time hiking in the woods, which I loved.
So, that was a great experience. After I was like okay, I want to keep doing this. I was not done with this style of learning and traveling. I guess I thought this was really cool to just be able to live out of a backpack and this is all you need. I liked that idea of being really minimal because I think when you have less stuff you are able to see more and experience more because you are not caught up in a lot of the things that you have. But I wanted to challenge myself a little bit so I said okay, let’s do this on my own. Let’s not go with a travel program.
I thought Europe was a good place to start because a lot people speak some English but I also want to learn a bit of French and Spanish. My ancestors are from England and Whales and I thought it would be really interesting to go to Europe. So, I worked at a farm for a season and went in the winter. I booked my flight and packed by backpack, just one. I went to Europe for three months and booked some work stays, some work exchanges I should say.
I did that in New Zealand and was like oh this is a really cool way to get to know a place because I think it is really nice to stay with someone who lives in the place that you are visiting. I find it gets a more local perspective and you do not just feel like a tourist. You actually get to be in the place. So yes, I did some work exchanges on a farm and with a couple of families. I did some hiking and sight-seeing. My mom and my younger sister came to visit me for a little bit. I went to Spain and France and Italy and England.
PAM: Wow.
ADRIAN: It was fantastic. It was probably one of my most challenging trips. I learned a lot about myself because being alone in a foreign country with just a backpack you just, it is just like, ‘Okay…I am just doing this I guess and I need to figure it out. Where am I going to stay? How am I going to get there? How am I going to afford that? What am I going to eat?’
I feel like I started to connect more with my cooking because that was probably the first time that I was like really totally in charge of my own food. Which was interesting because before I was either living with my family where it was more collaborative or traveling with a group where it was more in a communal way. So, this was like, ‘Okay yes, I need to figure out how I want to eat and cook. Where am I going to do that, in hostels?’ You know and trains and meeting new people and speaking new languages. I definitely learned a lot.
I think my most important lesson from that trip was that people really matter to me. I went alone and I had this idea about proving something to myself, that I can do this alone. I remember standing looking at the Colosseum in Rome and being like okay this is really cool. I have seen this in tons of movies, this extremely famous thing, so much history. But I do not have anyone to share this with. So, what does this mean? It was kind of like, not much. This doesn’t really mean anything right now because I miss my sisters and yes, I just missed that connection of sharing with people.
PAM: Sharing an experience.
ADRIAN: It was really interesting, yes. But I think it was really good for me to go through those things alone and to realize those connections are really important to me.
PAM: Isn’t that a wonderful way to learn these things about ourselves, right? Is to have experiences. To have experiences that like you were talking about before, these are not mistakes or wrong. These are things we are learning along the way. That make us more whole because we are learning more about ourselves. Now that we know more, our next step can be closer toward the stuff that we know more about. Does that make sense?
ADRIAN: Totally, totally and so yes, my next traveling, I knew I wanted connections. I also realized that I really enjoyed learning Spanish. So, I went to Nicaragua and volunteered for about six weeks in the same place. Because I was also moving around a lot in Europe and that ended up being exhausting. I wanted to connect with one place and so I went and volunteered and got to know a community and people and took Spanish lessons and that was incredible.
It was awesome to really see into a different kind of world and speak a different language. It was on a permaculture farm for a bit so also following my interest of being outside and working with my hands. Then also working with kids a little bit and doing art too, I also like doing art. So, it was teaching art classes for about week and then working on a permaculture farm for about a month. It was lovely. I was like, ‘This is it!’ Because I am coming to this place and actually feeling like I am contributing to the community a little bit. Instead of just being a tourist. Which is also great to do sometimes; but it felt more meaningful to me to make those connections.
PAM: Yes, exactly it is all about the stuff that we are learning about ourselves and what is meaningful to us. Like you said before, it is not a judgement on other people making other choices because those are the choices that work for them. It is that whole piece that you figure out that we are all individuals and as we you know step towards our joy, does not mean that everybody else’s steps need to look same or that our steps are wrong because they look different. It is a bigger picture appreciation, isn’t it, for everybody doing what they love.
ADRIAN: Yes, and I think I came across, like you were saying, like everyone is following their own joy. Because a lot of my peers were going to university or college at that time and that was the mainstream that everyone was going towards. But, I kept choosing to not do that I guess and to keep working and traveling. I was working really hard in between all my trips. I think that was kind of cool for me because it taught me that I can keep making my own decisions and that is okay.
And to keep following what I love has turned out really well. It was nice, it was like a continual affirmation of yes, you can keep making your own choices and everyone is doing what they want to do and you do not have to do what other people are doing. Or you can and that is great too but as long as it feels right in your heart.
PAM: Yes, as long as it is your choice. Because now you have made the transition right now you are going to university, right?
So, do you want to talk a little bit about that transition and how that has been going for you?
ADRIAN: Yes, yes for sure. Now I am in university and there is also a certain relaxation about that. It is interesting to have been doing something that not a lot of other people are doing for it was about five years that I was working and traveling and now I am doing something where a lot of other people are doing that. And to notice being in those two different worlds is really interesting.
After traveling and working, I had been working was on organic farm and I loved it there. When I first started working on farms, I think it was my first job when I was twelve or something which was mostly weeding or mowing a lawn, it was just for pocket change.
I live in a rural place too so there are not a lot of other jobs available. But over the years I kept working on farms and a couple different farms and this one that I worked at for about five seasons now, I do not work there anymore but I did. Something about the farm, I think it was the perfect size and the family is amazing but I got to see the whole picture of the farm. I got to be a part of different parts of it which is something that I really like.
I think my brain likes to look at the big picture and then put different pieces into it and see how it all works together. I love being outside and working with my hands and I got to work at the farmer’s market where we sell our products and see how my work was connecting to the community. Which is something also I learned that I really value. Feeling like am helping my community and contributing to the world in a positive way.
Because I love being outside and I love being in the natural world I realized I guess, by working through this farm that it’s connected to a lot of the things that I love. I took a summer off and did more traveling in Canada. I did a road trip with my friend. The whole summer I was thinking about the farm. What is happening and what is growing and is this turning out? I miss it so much. I just realized that I love it but also that I had been working at this one farm for a while and feeling like, I wanted more of a challenge.
I need to make a shift so I am taking on more responsibility or like I am learning more. Because I feel like I know how to weed really fast and I know how to harvest but I want to know how do I plan this and what is happening in the soil. How do I market my produce or these more theoretical or different than just the day to day stuff? I was thinking bigger picture things and I was thinking I like learning with a group. I kind of just came to where yes, university is the way that I want to learn about this.
I also thought that I could just start reading books and start farming because you do not really need a degree to farm you can just do it and it will work or it won’t. I was kind of like, ‘No, I think I want this more structured way.’ I do like some structure in my learning. Yes, I wanted to be with other young people who were into farming. I knew we could have lots of conversations.
So, now I am going to Trent University in Peterborough, Ontario. I chose that program because it focuses on sustainable and alternative forms of agriculture which is what I am interested in. Instead of the more large scale industrial farming. I really, really like it. I was a little nervous but more just because I was moving to a different town and community. Also, because I have not been in kind of this system for a long time and how is that going to go. But really it was fine because I think I know how to learn and I know how to reach out for help.
Luckily, I have amazing parents that help me a lot and the school is great too. There are so many resources that I can use. It has been really good. I think the thing that has been important for me is to find peers that also have a similarish mindset around school. I was kind of like okay, what are my peers going to be like are they all going to be younger more like eighteen coming right out of high school? Will they be older, will they be mixed? But I found that it is more diverse actually with my program. I think a lot of people come to agriculture maybe at a bit of an older age instead of right out of high school. But, it is a diverse group which I really appreciate because they have lots of different perspectives that we can talk about. Not everyone wants to farm, some people are just interested in agriculture and food policy and some people do want to farm and some people they want to do livestock or vegetables so it is diverse which I really appreciate.
PAM: That is lovely. So, it sounds like you are enjoying that so far.
ADRIAN: Yes, I feel like the program has been really perfect because it is not very hands on but that is kind of great because I have already had a lot of hands on experience. I am taking an organic agricultural class next semester which I think is going to talk about policy and certification methods and then environmental implications of agriculture. So, how are agriculture and the environment related, which they completely are.
Last semester I took world food systems so looking at how does food move globally and how is it traded. I think that is really important for me to know. All the classes so far have been like, ‘Yes! This is what I need to know, this is important for me to learn.’ But I still do question how important graduating is to me. Because there are some classes that are required for my degree that I do not necessarily think will be extremely interesting. So, I am still trying to figure out, how important that piece of paper is to me and how valuable those classes will be. Is it not interesting because I do not know anything about it or because I haven’t tried it or is it because I really just do not want to take this class? How do I work with this? Because there still is a lot of pressure from within the university to get that degree. That is the whole program is setting you up to do, that is the point.
PAM: That is their job.
ADRIAN: Right that is their job but my point is learning and using this information to hopefully one day apply it to my life as a person growing food for my community. So, there are slightly different agendas happening here. It is sometimes tricky to balance that but so far it is good. I think it will be more towards the end of my degree when I how it will work. I do not ever want to sacrifice my time for something that I won’t necessarily care about because I think towards the end of high school that was what was happening. It was just doing this for someone else now not necessarily myself so it did not feel good. So, I am wary I guess and cautious to observer, this is what the university wants or this is what I want? Just make sure I keep on my path here.
PAM: Oh, Adrian I love all those questions you are asking yourself. That is perfect and that is how you are going to kind of feel your way through it. I mean, that is how you feel your way through life, right? Really because there are always pushes and pulls and things from various directions. You know, what it’s like to really get clear on what we want out of it. What you want out of it and the implications as you said, you know that tendency to easily get sucked into someone else’s agenda. That even sounds too harsh but other people’s agendas, they are everywhere. It is not necessarily a bad thing but being aware of it so that even if you choose to not lose sight of the fact that you are choosing, right?
ADRIAN: Yes.
PAM: Because you can easily kind of slip over into, I know I am not making these choices from a personal perspective anymore they are choices that have showed up here and I fell into it. You are asking yourself such wonderful questions, it is fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing.
What do you appreciate now, from your perspective at this moment, most about living an unschooling lifestyle growing up? Or just being free to live because like we were talking about before to label what is unschooling versus you know what is living, eventually it is just living your life doesn’t it.
ADRIAN: Yes, it does.
PAM:
What do you appreciate most about just being able to live your life just growing up?
ADRIAN: I think it is time and space that was really important for me. And freedom and not being constantly judged and evaluated on my decisions and choices. I was really, of course when we were working as a family so not totally free like I had to work with my sisters.
PAM: Yes, in the context.
ADRIAN: Yes, within the context but yes, the freedom to get to know myself. And I did not even know I was getting to know myself. I did not even realize that was happening until I was in a situation where that had not happened for people. I think yes, the space to just be, the space to have time to listen to myself and know and learn how to listen to myself. Learn how I work and how I learn what brings me joy, what does not, how do I deal with making these decisions? Having the time to even think about that. I do not want to take this class, okay why do I not want to take this class? So, the time; the time is so amazing. The time to just be and learn how to be. Be in relationship with nature and my family and my community. I think if I just explore, time to be a kid a play.
PAM: That leads nicely into our last question.
As a grown unschooler, what piece of advice would you like to share with unschooling parents who are maybe just starting out on this journey?
ADRIAN: I thought about this question and it is tricky because I think every parent and every kid and every community and every environment is different so it is going to look different for everyone.
I think what I came to, the things that I have valued the most from my experience of being unschooled was the tools that I have now. I think being an unschooler got me and the parents that I have got me those tools. Like how do I listen? How do I communicate my needs? How do I listen to other people’s needs? How do I know how to ask questions when I do not know the answers? How do I go into a new situation feeling okay and feeling that I can do this?
Even if I do not know how to do it, I know what next steps are; how to figure it out. Okay, this did not work where do I go from here? How to live and how to love too. How to love myself and how to love other people. How to figure my way around a city and how to take care of other kids. How to have a conversation with an adult when I am there. I think knowing how to learn is much more important than knowing math or knowing how to write an essay perfectly.
Because if you know how to learn then you can go into most any situation and figure it out. And know how to have the confidence that that is okay. You know, teach your kid that it is okay to not know something, it is okay to be wrong or make mistakes and it is okay to do these things. Those are the situations where you learn.
Because if you know how to learn and you know how to fail, then you can do anything, I think.
Because if it is okay to keep failing eventually you are going get it and you are going to learn. How to love and work in a team.
And listen to your kid because they will tell you what they need even if it is not verbally. I think that yes, letting them be the leaders is really important too. Focusing on skills instead of specific things and then just following your kid I think are important things.
PAM: Oh, my goodness Adrian, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. It was so much fun, thank you, thank you.
ADRIAN: Yes, thank you too Pam it was really, really nice.
PAM: Oh, good I am glad you enjoyed it.
ADRIAN: Yes, it is fun, it is.
PAM: Best of luck next semester. I hope you really enjoy your classes.
ADRIAN: Thank you, thank you. Yes, I am excited.
PAM: Thanks again.
ADRIAN: Thanks Pam, bye.
EU385: Foundations: People Are Different
May 08, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, People Are Different.
It’s natural to assume that other people see the world in the same way we do, and that they experience and process things just like we do. But in reality, we are all unique. And while we are our own unique beings, there are some general traits that can be helpful to understand. Not understanding these simple differences can lead to a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings.
Pam and Anna talk about a few of the biggies that tend to come up in relationships, such as introversion and extroversion, internal and external processing, and sensitivities. Diving into some of these differences can be so helpful in understanding our loved ones and in avoiding some of the common miscommunication that can happen between us.
We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
EPISODE QUESTIONS
Do you feel you are more introverted or extroverted? How about the most important people in your life? How do you see them and how do they see themselves?
Are you more of an internal or external processor? What about those around you? Have you seen this cause confusion before?
What areas of sensitivities or just preferences do you wish your partner or friends understood about you? Ask them if they have any that they’d like you to know.
What is your love language (physical touch, words of affirmation, gifts, quality time, acts of service)? Your partner’s? Your child’s?
ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are excited you found us and are interested in exploring our relationships—who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about how different people can be. I think it’s a human nature thing to just automatically assume that other people see and experience the world in the same way that we do. And in reality, we are all unique.
And while we really and truly are our own unique beings, there are some general traits that can be helpful to understand. Not understanding these simple differences can lead to a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings. So, I’m excited that we’re going to talk about a few of the biggies that tend to come up in relationships, especially.
Let’s start with introverts and extroverts. There are a lot of misconceptions about this one. Many think that people who are more introverted are shy and if they just got some skills, they would be extroverted. I’m here to say no. I’m an introvert. I am not at all shy. I can speak to a crowd of 500 people and not break a sweat, but put me at a party and I’m usually in another room with the dogs.
It’s interesting, because even if it’s a party where I do talk and make a lot of connections and have a wonderful time, when I come home, I’m tired, exhausted sometimes, and I just need some quiet space to decompress and bring back up my energy, while for my more extroverted friends, they are super recharged by the party and want to have more conversations. They’re raring to go!
And it’s good to keep in mind that this is a spectrum, but it’s still helpful to understand you and your partner’s tendencies when it comes to this, because how this plays out in relationships is that, if you have one who’s more one type than the other, it can be a lot of misunderstandings. The more introverted partner comes home from work and just wants to retreat, while the more extroverted partner is waiting at the door and they want to talk about their day and connect right away. And so, what can feel like a slight and even result in some hurt feelings is really just a personality difference. And it’s easily solved for by allowing some transition time and then connecting.
I have a close friend who’s an extrovert, big time, and she will actually start to have low energy and start feeling depressed, even thinks she’s coming down with some kind of an illness, and then we realize she hasn’t seen people in a couple days and a quick dose of in-person interaction and she perks right back up. So, understanding these bits can help us help each other and understand each other. And watching how our energy ebbs and flows with interaction is one clue.
PAM: Oh, definitely, definitely. I think the energy piece can be such a great clue about where you lie on that introvert/extrovert spectrum. And yes, remembering it’s a spectrum, not a slot, is very helpful.
So, after a group event, like say a family get-together, dinner with friends, or a holiday party, how do you feel? Just take a moment. Are you energized and excited to engage with more people or projects? You want to just get to the next thing? As soon as it’s over, are you happily just thinking, just looking around going, what can I do? What can I do? Or, do you feel, like you mentioned, Anna, fulfilled emotionally, yet drained energetically, ready for some alone time? Do you look forward to curling up with a book or a show to just recharge for a while?
And then, if that energy lens doesn’t resonate, just think of what you’d freely choose to do after hanging out with a group of friends for a few hours. Would you like to then hang out with another group of friends? Do you want to tackle a big project on your list? Well, then you’re likely higher on the extrovert side of the scale. And if either of those options made you shudder inside, you are probably more of an introvert.
Also, as you alluded to earlier, Anna, neither one is better than the other, but it is really helpful to understand that aspect of our personality and that of our friends and family, because if we don’t, it can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings and even taking the other person’s choices personally.
ANNA: Right. And that’s the big thing. We’re taking something personally that really has nothing to do with us.
And so, along these same lines, but not the same, is how we process information. So, people tend to be internal or external processors. Internal processors take ideas and they think about them for a long time, while they’re weighing options and coming up with a plan and just thinking all about it in their head. And when they tell you something, they tend to be ready to act on the idea. That’s a big difference. An external processor wants to see and hear the ideas in front of them, bouncing off other people. What kind of input are they going to get? “Let’s think about all these different things.”
And so, they’ll say things that they have no intention of doing, just to see how it feels. And if we don’t understand this, it really can lead to a lot of confusion.
So, my externally processing friend is talking about moving to Europe one day. So, in my mind, I’m planning the going away party. I’m thinking about how sad I’m going to be that they’re gone. And later, I realized that they just wanted to walk through that idea. They were nowhere near making a decision at all.
And, Pam, I’m here to say, if I say out loud that I’m moving somewhere, like the truck is lined up and the boxes will be arriving that day. There is no doubt. So, again, you can see how that could lead to conflicts and confusion if we don’t understand how the important people in our lives process information and what they need to process big decisions, be it space, or the listening ear.
PAM: Yes, yes, yes. This was such a big revelation for me. I still so clearly remember many years ago when my partner mentioned mid-week about going somewhere on the weekend. So, me, I went straight into planning mode, right? Boom, boom, boom. Let’s make this happen. And the next day, just asked him a quick question, and his earnest reply was, “What are you talking about?” And I was just flabbergasted. I’m like, “What? You said you wanted to do this!”
So, a quick conversation and I realized he had just been tossing that ball up in the air with zero investment in where it landed. Whereas I had already scooped it up and started running towards what I thought was the goal line. Let’s go there this weekend!
So, I learned to be less invested in the random balls and instead to just be curious about them, because I knew he was an external processor, to ask questions, to learn more. Are you looking for a change of scenery? What would you like to do there? Just playing with it with him, that helps him process what it might feel like.
And, of course, we don’t need to stick anybody in the box again of internal or external processor forever. But it can be really helpful to understand their tendency, so we are more able to join them where they are, whether it’s fantasizing and brainstorming, like with your friend, Anna, too, or getting ready to help tape up your boxes.
So, understanding that others may well process things differently than I do, I might preface my words so they come across more clearly. So, maybe I say, “I’m dreaming about moving to Europe. What do you think that might be like?” Or, “I’ve been thinking about changing careers for a while now, and I just found this great job I’d like to apply to. Can you help me tweak my resume?” I don’t think it really ever hurts to give people a little bit more context so they can better understand where we’re coming from and what we’re looking for. It helps us connect more quickly.
ANNA: Yes. And with all those pieces, they’re just things to consider, patterns to look for, ways to not take things personally, again, because that’s so often where we derail just because someone has a different process or experiences things in a different way. So, letting go of judging also that there maybe is one way or a better way or, “This is the way,” when we can let that go, it just really opens us up to that connection.
And so, one of the other things I wanted to touch on are sensitivities. Some people are just wired to experience more. They see more, smell more, take in more. And the situations that feel really easy for one person feel nearly impossible for another. And the confusion comes in when someone takes it personally when someone says something doesn’t work for them.
So, I have a hard time in cities. This is a well-known fact for anybody who knows me. The lights, the smells, the sounds, the energy from all the people. So, if someone asks me to go to a city, I would most likely say no pretty quickly. But it’s not a no to spending time with the person, necessarily. And so, I try to be clear, like you were talking about, and transparent, because it helps give them that additional information, which I think is probably always a good idea. Let’s provide some context and information.
But it really does help when we take the time to learn about each other’s preferences so that we can honor them and not take them personally.
PAM: Absolutely. Recognizing that we’re all different in the way we experience and engage with the world helps us sidestep so much of that judgment and unintentional hurts that happen so often.
So, when our introverted partner beelines for the couch to quietly watch some TV after a fun afternoon with extended family, it does not mean that they’re purposefully ignoring us or that they didn’t enjoy the afternoon. It really can just be about their need to recharge. It doesn’t need to be a reflection on us at all.
And when we ask our friend about joining us at the big local festival this weekend, “Yay!” and they say they need to think about it, that needn’t be a slight on us, either. Maybe they’re an internal processor and need to think through what a change in plans would mean for them, or maybe they’re an introvert and need to consider how much recovery time they’ll need after and whether they can work that in. And maybe they’re sensitive to the sounds and smells that come with a festival full of food carts and loud music, and need to consider some tools to help them navigate the environment reasonably comfortably for them.
And, as you mentioned, Anna, even if they decide not to join us, there is a very good chance that, too, is not about us. We can have a conversation about it with them and next time invite them to get together in a way that works better for them.
And the more we know about how we tick, the more easily we can have those kinds of conversations with others. We can share those little pieces of ourselves and open up the space for them to share more with us. And that way, they see that our choices aren’t judgments of them, but are examples of how we care for ourselves. What a difference it makes to our relationships to understand these fundamental differences between people.
ANNA: And, I mean, you would think we would know some of this, but really it is a surprise to a lot of people I talk to. It’s this, “Oh yeah, they do that! Now that makes sense.” And so, right, just putting these pieces together and thinking about it for ourselves, even, because that’s the thing, I think sometimes we don’t even have this awareness about ourselves. And so, that’s why I think it’s going to be really interesting this week to think about the important people in our lives, to think about ourselves. What do we know about them? What might we not know?
And so, here are our questions to reflect upon for this week. So, first, do you feel you’re more introverted or extroverted? How about the most important people in your life? How do you see them and how do they see themselves? And I want to point this out, because if people meet me in a work environment, they think I’m an extrovert. I took a Myers Briggs test in a corporate America job and they were like, something’s wrong there. I was the farthest on the introvert scale.
So, it’s not just how we see someone. Learn about them, because then you know, they may be able to be at this level, but it’s draining them. So, that piece is important.
Are you more of an internal or external processor? And what about those around you? And I think it would be curious to look at, have you seen this cause any confusion and peel back some areas where you’ve had some disagreements and think, “Ah, was this at play?” So, I think that could be really interesting.
What areas of sensitivities or just preferences do you wish that your partner or your friends understood about you? And then ask them if they have anything they’d like you to know. I think that’s interesting, because I think sometimes we think people just know these things about us, because we’re spending all this time together, but we don’t.
PAM: And then, there’s also that expectation we can have of our partner, too.
ANNA: To mind read.
PAM: Yeah. It’s like, okay, well they should have figured this out about me. No, let’s be open and share all the little pieces, not have expectations of others to figure it out on their own. That’s a big one, I think.
ANNA: Let’s keep sharing, keep that context coming. And lastly, we just wanted to make a quick mention about love languages. So, this idea was put forth by Gary Chapman in his book, that there are five love languages. We each tend to have a primary and a secondary. He lists them as physical touch, words of affirmation, gifts, acts of service, and quality time.
What that means is that we receive and feel love best when it’s expressed in our love language. It’s another way that people are different. And the challenge is that we often want to give love in the way that we want to receive it, which of course makes sense. But if the language of our loved one is different than ours, then it will sometimes miss the mark. So, following the link in the show notes, take the love language quiz if you haven’t, and figure out what’s your love language and your partner’s and your children even.
And then just look at, “Oh, is that at play with some of these pieces? Are they looking for these words of affirmation that maybe don’t come naturally to me or I don’t think about, or this quality time that in our busy lives we’re not able to prioritize as much and maybe we can prioritize that.”
So, it’s just going to be fun digging in to see, just to learn more about each other. And that’s the fun richness of relationships, where we’re learning about ourselves and each other.
PAM: Exactly. And I think this one will be really fun for people to play with, too, because one of my love languages is acts of service. So, for me, I love doing little things for people, but are they receiving that as an act of love or just like, “Oh yeah, that thing got done.” It’s not that that anybody’s reacting negatively, but it is it expressing what I’m trying to express through it as well?
So, it’s really interesting to then shift it and realize they may have other love languages and to then say, “Oh, well, how could I use their language to express?” And just play with that.
You’ll hear me say this many times through the podcast, I’m sure. Let’s play with things and see how they feel, see how they unfold. When we do something, it doesn’t mean we have to do it forever. It doesn’t mean we have to do it the same way forever. It doesn’t mean we ever have to do it again.
We learn so much when we just try something out and see what happens. It’s fun. That brings the fun and the playfulness to it.
ANNA: I do think relationships are fun and interesting and that playful, open, curious attitude is really what helps that, “Hey, we’re in this together. Let’s figure each other out. Let’s see how we want to move through the world.” So, yeah, I love it!
PAM: Yay! Well, thank you so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.
ANNA: Bye.
EU384: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: The Stories We Tell Ourselves
Apr 24, 2025
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and this time, we’re talking about the stories we tell ourselves.
Stories is a topic that comes up a lot in conversations on the Living Joyfully Network. In fact, we had a monthly theme by that name! When we start to get curious about the stories we tell about our own lives, about other people and their intentions, about our children, and on and on, we realize just how powerful it can be to rewrite some of these stories! The stories we choose can empower us and give us confidence or they can pit us against others and make us miserable. We have the power to choose the stories we tell and there are endless possibilities!
We really enjoyed diving into this topic and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
PAM: I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and I am joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello!
So, today we are diving into another unschooling stumbling block, and that’s the stories we tell ourselves. And I think this is such an interesting lens to bring to our days.
I know one of my favorite quotes about stories is from Jonathan Gotschall, in his book, The Storytelling Animal: How Stories Make Us Human. He writes: “Story is for a human as water is for a fish – all encompassing and not quite palpable.” That resonates so much with me and I found it truly paradigm-shifting to begin recognizing the stories I was telling myself!
But before we dive in, I just want to take a moment to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is so much value in doing this deep personal work that the unschooling journey asks of us in community because while everybody’s journey absolutely is unique, many of us face similar obstacles and challenges, like recognizing the stories that we tell ourselves, and that is where the power of community shine in helping people feel seen and heard.
And in the Network you can learn from the experiences of other unschooling parents, draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways that they navigate both their own and their families day-to-day needs. It is just a conversation that comes up quite regularly. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on Community in the Top Menu.
So, Anna, we have just kind of gotten ourselves swimming in the water of stories. Would you like to get us started?
ANNA: Yes, I am ready. I feel like it’s big, so we’ll see. We’ll see where this ends up. But I do feel like understanding the roles that story plays in our lives can be so helpful.
We are humans. We write stories, so I love the quote, right? It’s everything. We just write stories. And I think it can be a helpful tool. So, this is not about trying to stop writing stories, one, that’s never going to happen. And two, it can be a helpful tool. For me, the story I tell about my life can help me cultivate the energy I want to have.
It can help me attract the people that I want to be around. I found for me, if I’m focused on everything’s doom and gloom and all the tough parts, I end up attracting more people that are stuck in those tough places and pointing out more tough problems that I have. But when I focus on the joy that’s there, even in those dark moments, I attract people who can see that too, or hold space for me in a different way.
That helps me stay in the energy that works best for me, and I can always switch it up and choose where I want to stay. But there’s something about that little bit of separation and knowing that it’s a choice and that the stories are a choice has just been critical to me and my growth and personal development.
And, but then there’s this other aspect of stories that I know we want to touch on, and it’s how we write stories about other people. So the challenge there comes when we don’t check in with the other people and we start to act from our story, the story that we’ve made up. And it can be really surprising and disconcerting to our partner or our friend who’s on the other end of that.
So just a quick kind of silly example is, let’s say David’s out of town and he tells me he’s going to text me that night. He’s on an overnight trip. Well, the text never comes. And so I might start writing stories. Well, does he not realize, he said he was going to text me?
Does he not care about me? He’s too busy having fun? I’m here holding down the fort and doing all the house stuff. I can start writing this story and then when he comes home. I might be snippy or annoyed, which could come as a complete surprise to him because he had no signal last night and he’s super excited to be home and to see me and to see the kids.
And so me operating from that story impacts our night, it impacts us coming back together. And if it’s a pattern of me doing that, it impacts the relationship. And so being aware of when I’m writing a story helps me pause and check in with myself and when possible, the other person involved. But in that situation, I couldn’t check in with him right away, but instead of just writing a story of, he doesn’t care about me, he’s just off doing whatever. I can say, I wonder if he has a signal or it’s weird that he hasn’t texted. I wonder what’s going on with him?
That’s where we talk about being open and curious. I don’t have all the answers. It’s not feeling great that I’m not getting a text, but what’s going on? And when I can come from that place to someone, it’s completely different. And sometimes, I’ll use the tool of, “The story I’m telling myself,” when I’m talking to someone so I can be like, “The story I’m telling myself is, you didn’t care at all that I was home. And you said you were going to text and you didn’t.”
Then he can recognize that’s about me. He can recognize like, oh my gosh, I can understand why you’d feel that way, but it doesn’t put him instantly on the defensive. Like, why didn’t you text? It gets us back into the I messages and that really helps with defensiveness.
And you know, I think it just helps us have a conversation that ends up not going sideways. We can just learn more about each other. And that again, is the beauty of being open and curious. I feel like there are so many aspects to stories and I feel like we all have a lot to say. So I’m going to pass it to you, Erika, and see what’s bubbling up there.
ERIKA: Okay, this is one of my absolute favorite topics. I just think the power of our stories is so amazing. And I only realized it was actually so deep and so important once I started exploring the idea in the Network. And so for me, the first step was just learning that I am telling stories. I don’t think I’d really consciously realized that until we talked about stories and it definitely hadn’t sunk in just how powerful they can be.
And I think when we’re in our heads and in our own experience and not aware that we are writing stories, the stories just feel like just the truth of what’s going on. I’m just observing and I know what’s happening. That’s what it feels like. And once you start thinking about this, then you’ll notice all the people around you who are believing that their stories are the whole truth as well.
You can just see it happen, and it’s one way that people become so disconnected from each other and it’s a big reason for a lot of relationship issues and ruptures. To me, when I’m in that, it feels like, I see what’s happening here. I’m smart. I know exactly why they did what they did, the meaning behind every little thing.
But the truth is that I don’t know. All I know really is how it felt to me and that first initial gut response of what this means. But I don’t know about the other person’s internal state or their version of the story unless I’m open and curious to learn more. And I feel like we could do a million examples in this episode, which might be fun, but just a benign example where you won’t really ever know the full truth.
I was thinking about just being in traffic. I could drive around Miami feeling attacked and hurt. If I tell the story that every person who’s cutting me off means to do it and they hate me and they’re rude, or I could tell the story that the people are busy and overwhelmed and maybe they’re uncomfortable driving, or they don’t know the area very well.
Maybe they’re running late or they really need to go to the bathroom. It’s not about me and I don’t need to tell the story that all these people are purposefully being mean to me. There’s a tiny chance that they are, but even then, there’s something going on for them that I don’t know about that led them to that choice.
And so, the story I tell myself as I’m driving helps me either feel peaceful and safe, or it can make me feel scared and upset. The fact that I have the ability to change the story gives me so much power. And obviously we won’t be pulling over and asking all the drivers about their versions of their story, though that would be super interesting.
But when we’re talking about situations with people we know and love, then we can be open and curious and ask questions to clarify. We can learn where those stories are way off base. And I love that line that you shared. Just say, “the story I’m telling myself is,” whatever. Because it really helps our partner hear us without getting defensive about it.
And it just opens up the conversation so we can see what things we’re missing. And I’m always missing things, because I’m only seeing things through my own lens. And so, we can just use our awareness of the existence of stories as a form of self-care and to make our days feel lighter. Realizing that we’re always telling a story about our own lives and intentionally tweaking it to make it feel better is just a really cool idea.
I know I’d love to share more about stories I’ve told myself, but I will pause for the moment, Pam.
PAM: I know we all just have so much to say! But yeah, I do want to just bubble that back up, Erika, what you were talking about with the traffic. It’s just a perfect example because you can see how we can tell the story and which one feels better. Which one sets us up for the next moment of our day and the next moment. We’re not telling lies to ourselves. Like you said, we don’t know. We’re not going to try to stop them and say, “Hey, why did you cut me off?” But self-care wise, what feels better? What sets up my day better? Because I’m the one I’m caring for. So, the story that I tell about things really is my choice.
And then the other piece that bubbled up for me that I love so much is that, and it goes to our people are different mantra, is really at first, before we recognize that these are all stories. They look like facts, right? This is the fact of the situation because I’m seeing it through my lens.
It must look the same to everybody else like that just happened, right? You all feel that same way in reaction to the thing that happened, right? It’s another layer of people are different because, people will see things differently. And of course people are different from different hair color and styles and, and everything.
But then personalities. But then to recognize that a situation that’s unfolding before you also incorporates and needs the idea that people are different because people are experiencing that same moment differently. And those are the stories. And when we recognize that, oh, this is how it looks to me, for me, it was adding the, to me until, Anna’s idea of stories came to life because, it’s different how other people see things, each of us are different in how we show up into a moment. So how we experience a moment differently, what it looks to us, how it feels to us, what it means to us is different for each person.
And to recognize that those are the stories that we’re all telling ourselves. And then to get to that next step of being, as you said, open and curious about what the story is for other people. That was just a huge paradigm shift for me. As I mentioned, right up top, it was like the world is so much bigger and more interesting, and now I don’t have to control, I don’t have to think other people are wrong, I don’t have to go in and fix things. I can learn instead of fix, right? There is no one right way. I don’t need to have an agenda. Like all those pieces that we talk about really fundamentally boil down to the stories that we tell ourselves, right?
ANNA: And we don’t have to defend or explain either, right?
I think it really leaves us open, it’s a much more reciprocal kind of relationship because we’re learning about each other. So it’s like, “Hey, this is the story I’m telling myself. This is how that was landing for me.” That gives you information about my sensitivities or how things land for me, or what feels easy and hard for me.
And then as I understand your story, I’m learning about you. And especially if you’re somebody that I care about and love, then that helps us relate. That helps us be aware of how things are landing and what’s happening and we can ask better questions and we can show up in the conversations differently.
But I do love the traffic example because it doesn’t even have to be something that we check. It’s still something we control. And I’ve said this before, but I always would tell my oldest, if you’re going to make up a story, make up a good one, because she would make up these stories that just were doom and gloom about everything.
And I’m like, you don’t have any idea if any of these things you’re saying are true are going to happen. And so how interesting to spend that energy creating something that’s going to make you feel a certain way, like you were saying Erika, maybe scared in traffic or feeling frustrated then going to the next moment angry and frustrated because you’ve had this traffic experience when you could change that story.
And sometimes in traffic I’ll do an over the top story. They have a baby. Their baby’s on the way. They’re trying to rush to the hospital, you know, just to kind of make myself laugh and get out of my head about it and just slow down because really what difference does it make if I’m a little bit later or one more car behind the other car?
But sometimes it takes me being silly and making up a story that kind of over the top to do that. But like you said, Erika, I loved that piece that before we’re even aware that stories exist and how integral they are to our day, it really does just feel like the facts, well, the facts are this, you said this, you did this, but we never know what someone else’s motivations are, what drove them, whether it’s from childhood trauma or from the context of something, of a conversation, they just walked out of another room and came into this room with that still weighing on them.
There’s so many things that go into, people are different and it’s just so important for me to leave space for that and just have it be this opportunity to learn about the people I care about. And story is such an important part of that.
ERIKA: And doesn’t it feel so closely tied to just the differences in our personalities, the type of stories that we’re going to tend to want to write? I think initially it doesn’t even really feel like we do have that choice. And it’s something that takes a little bit of thought and diving in and playing around with. I remember when I first joined the Network, one of the biggest a-ha moments right away was just the idea that people could have a different response to the same issue and have a different feeling.
The way I grew up, I have that vision of how my mom thought about things. Then I have my vision of my just natural emotional responses to things. And so the idea that maybe a child could say something that seems really scary or disturbing and that it would be okay for someone to not freak out.
I was just amazing, it’s okay to not freak out. I’ve never even heard of such a thing. And so just that idea of people are different. That kind of started to open me up to. It’s not like a foregone conclusion that I have to respond in this one way to something that happens. And, then I was also thinking about how, when you hear parents of young kids saying things like, they are doing this to annoy me.
They’re doing this because of something, and so we put intentions onto everyone, including little babies. We put these intentions on them like they’re doing it for this reason. And so when those kinds of thoughts pop up, that could be a little flag of, okay, I actually am not inside of their brain.
And so I don’t know what the intention is. And that reminds me of those underlying needs, like getting more to underlying needs or learning more about the context of the situation for someone else. Assuming everyone is doing the best that they can in the moment with what they know and with whatever context they’re dealing with.
All of those helpful thoughts. I feel like it’s like a calming thought to think everyone’s doing the best that they can in the moment, and that helps me get away from the story of everyone is doing everything to annoy me specifically, or to just make my life difficult, which, you know, in some moments it can feel like that.
PAM: I think that is such a huge one, Erika. I love that because it’s so true. It depends on our capacity, et cetera. You know, people are doing things that are frustrating around us and we are thinking, they know I don’t like that they’re doing that to piss me off. And it really feels like that’s the full story. That’s it, the facts.
Everybody around me is doing things that they know is just going to get me more and more frustrated. Like, why are the kids fighting again? And so to be able to shift the story to look for the underlying needs, to see that we are being triggered but it’s not about us.
If we can get to the story about, oh, you know, what’s happening for them because they’re the ones doing it and chances are they’re not doing it to piss us off, right? Stuff’s going on in their lives. There’s a whole different story going on for them. When we can start to recognize that, I think that really helps in our relationships.
And I wanted to mention one other layer underneath. I needed to learn about stories for other people, and understand their perspectives to then get to the layer of my self-talk and how I spoke to myself, the stories I told about myself, because those were very automatic.
If something went wrong, ah, I did that wrong again. Or, I’m a bad person. All those stories that we tell ourselves. To recognize that, this grace I’m giving to other people in recognizing that their story is different from mine and not assuming all sorts of things around it, I could also start to try and give myself that grace and tell the stories differently.
When I think about it a lot of people, when we start talking about stories, they kind of come to it with the impression at first that you’re just making things up. You’re just kind of lying to yourself so that it feels better, so that things look better, et cetera, et cetera.
When you recognize that that’s not what’s happening, that there is more than one way to see a situation, right? When you’re stuck thinking there’s one right way, you’re just putting your head in the sand or you think that when we write a different story that we are.
But when you recognize that there really are different ways, then you can bring that grace to yourself and how you choose to speak to yourself through situations, through anything that’s going on. For me, that was and continues to be, not just a challenge, but so helpful in moving through things because it actually resonates more deeply than just trying to guilt myself into something or trying to beat myself up.
Gotta do that better next time, or whatever the story is, but recognizing what’s actually going on. I learn more about myself and so I have more context. As I think you mentioned, I like slowing down to actually recognize what’s going on. I can give myself that grace instead of just beating myself up quickly because that is just the normal reaction that I’m used to.
Giving that space to recognize the context of things helps me have better, more accurate language and stories as to what’s going on, rather than just leaping to the typical story that I’ve always told myself.
ANNA: That makes sense. I love that connection with self-talk. I had written myself a note from what Erika was saying, but it actually fits with that too, which is basically our stories tell us a lot about ourselves.
It is kind of a litmus test of, okay, wow, I’m really writing stories that are very harsh towards myself or harsh towards someone else, or whatever it is. That tells me a lot about where I am, where my mindset is, what’s happening for me. I think it can be a really good clue that I’m needing some self-care.
I need to slow down. I need some help. I need some support because this is happening. So I think it is really interesting to look at our stories as giving us information about where we are, mentally. How we’re feeling, what’s happening for us. Because I think we all have generous hearts and we want to do that, but there are times where it feels really heavy and overwhelming, and we can start to write stories that just keep us in that space.
And so when we can step back and have that pause of like, wow, I’m being really harsh towards myself, or I’m not giving myself space, or I’m being really harsh towards this person in my life that I care about. Where’s that coming from? I think just that little bit of separation to recognize they are stories, it just starts this whole process of self-awareness and how we’re showing up in the world and all of those different pieces.
And just again, to repeat the piece of, everybody sees things so differently and there isn’t a right or wrong, but it is really freeing. Because Erika, we talked about this when we were having some of those epiphanies, it’s pretty amazing to think, okay, so then you get to decide does this way of thinking feel good to me? Does it work for me?
Because here are three other people that are doing it completely differently. And so how do I feel about that? Instead of thinking that there’s one way. One that came up early in the network was “worry equals love”. And it was really freeing for a lot of people to think it doesn’t have to be worry to be love.
You don’t have to be worried about everything to show that you’re loving your children or other people. And again, people have to find their place on that spectrum, but there are people all over that spectrum, you know? And so I think it’s so powerful. And so I just love that idea of using our stories as just a, hey, checking in with myself, what are the stories I’m telling myself about my life right now?
Because I have also found when I can switch it, that’s when I get out of the stuck place. That’s when things change. That’s when a new door opens up, that’s when something else happens. I. It’s a powerful, powerful tool.
ERIKA: One other thought popped into my head. I know this is stories we tell ourselves, but also stories we tell about ourselves to people.
That’s a big part of this as well, because, you kind of mentioned it at the beginning, Anna, but just like what you present about your life is you’re going to receive different responses based on different things, and this is something that I’m still working on for myself because I realized that I tended and still tend to want to tell the hard negative story about what I’m going through in my days. I think because of a desire for connection, wanting someone to care in response to that, but it is me ramping up the side of the story of things that are very challenging and downplaying the good things.
And that is one attempt at getting connection, but it’s not the only way to do it. And so it’s something to play around with. Like when Josh comes home from work, I’m telling the story of a great day. How does that type of connecting conversation feel in comparison to the, I need to make sure to tell him all the hard things that happened.
How does that feel? And it’s interesting because it’s all there. Like on any given day, both parts are there. I can choose to tell which version of the story I want to in that moment. And it’s just kind of getting curious about how it plays out differently with the different versions is interesting.
PAM: I’m glad you mentioned the word play there because, that’s exactly what bubbled up for me when you were talking because that’s so true. And the different context too. I know when we would be visiting extended family, et cetera, you know, and they’re asking, how’s it going?
The story that I chose to share in various contexts made a difference. Because even there, extended family loves you but have their opinions. We did an episode recently about, it’s not the unschooling, but for them they would see the big changes, the unschooling. So if I said I was having a hard time with this kid, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
The “answer” for them would be to send them to school. They would really be trying to help. It’s so fun to just play around with. I learned to change my story, and it’s not even that one’s right or wrong, it’s just selecting the part of the story of what I want to emphasize about our days, right? And picking out the pieces that these are the things that I want to share with this person or the, these people, et cetera.
And, just be more purposeful and intentional about it. And I say play because play with different aspects that you share and see how it feels. See what kind of reactions you get. That is another way to learn about the impact of the stories that we tell. So again, it’s not ignoring things, but it’s how we tell ourselves the story, how we tell others the stories of our days.
I think it just helps us to observe more, to see more of the things that are happening and not to give more weight to any one aspect, to any one particular part than all the rest. So, now you’ve got a much larger smorgasbord of stories to choose from, and you can go from one to the next, to the next, to the next, but play around with them and just get a sense for which feels good and which makes that connection that you’re looking for with the person that you’re talking to.
ANNA: That’s what I was going to say. I love that point, Erika, to look at the underlying needs, so stories are a tool, right? A tool to move through the world to get what we need to figure out these pieces.
But if we can understand what is our need that we’re trying to meet, then we can play around with the story that gets us there. Because depending on the person that you’re talking to, with that end of day story. They might be a nurturer, so they hear that kind of sad story about the day and swoop you up in a big hug and snuggle you.
But if they’re not that nurturing personality, that actually can be really off-putting, like, okay, I don’t know what to do. You’re upset, I don’t know what to do. That’s too hard. And so if connection is the goal now, if to be heard about your tough times is a goal. Okay, then we can figure that out.
But if it’s connection, then you know what? It might be sharing the amazing things that the kids did today. And then that brings that person closer because they feel excited to learn about that. So playing around with what need am I trying to meet? And then what story serves me and the situation? What do I want to present to help get that need met?
What gets me there? And same with the in-laws. What am I trying to do here? If I’m looking for support for unschooling or parenting or different things. Is this the environment where I want to tell the story about what’s happening in our life? Or do I want to do it in a place where people understand where I’m coming from or have information that might be interesting to my journey.
I think all of that’s really important, but I think the slowing down gets us there. What’s the need? What’s happening? What’s my point? And then playing around what, how, what can we do?
ERIKA: And just wrapping your head around the idea of, it’s not lying about your life. It’s all there.
It’s all there, all of these versions of the story are true. You’re not kidding yourself to tell a positive version of something. It is just super interesting and, and a lot to play around with.
PAM: So much to play around with. Well, thank you so much for joining us, everybody listening, Anna and Erika, it’s always such a pleasure and we all hope that you enjoyed our conversation around the idea of stories.
Now maybe you’re seeing some of the water that you’re swimming in. I think that’ll be really fun to play around with and consider joining us in the Living Joyfully Network where we dive into these kinds of topics regularly and with other kind and thoughtful unschooling parents. We have amazing families in the network and we are excited to welcome you to learn more and join us.
Just follow the link in the show notes or go to LivingJoyfullyShop.com and click on community in the menu. We wish everyone a very lovely day. Thanks. Bye bye. Take care.
EU105 Flashback: Unschooling Dads with Nick Hess
Apr 10, 2025
In this week’s flashback episode, we’re sharing an interview that Pam had in 2018 with Nick Hess.
At the time of the interview, Nick, also known online as The Unschool Dad, and his wife were unschooling their five children. They chatted about about his family’s move to unschooling, what it was about unschooling that resonated with him, what he found challenging, and surprising, about unschooling as it has unfolded in their lives, and lots more!
For thousands of years, humans learned naturally. When you let it happen and you get there, and you do not force it, you are just there helping them. And I think that is the important part, is that you have to be there. I mean, me and my wife are constantly with our children. You have to be there to help them, and guide them, answer their questions, or help them spell something. And when you are there, and you are just part of your children’s lives, you just see it all. You come together and it is truly a magical lifestyle that we live, it is just amazing. ~ Nick Hess
QUESTIONS FOR NICK
Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?
I love hearing about what unschooling kids are up to. Can you share what your children are interested in right now?
What did your family’s move to unschooling look like?
What were the pieces that resonated with you and helped you feel more confident in choosing unschooling?
What has been the most challenging aspect of moving to unschooling for you?
What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives?
You post regularly on Facebook and Instagram as The Unschool Dad, sharing inspirational quotes as well as pics of your unschooling lives. I enjoy following you guys and I’d love to know what inspired you to start this project.
As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just starting out on this journey?
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hi everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I am here with Nick Hess. Hi Nick!
NICK: Hi, how are you?
PAM: I’m good, thank you.
If people don’t know, Nick is an unschooling dad with five children, and I said that because you may know him online as The Unschool Dad. He has an active Facebook page and he is on Instagram as well and it is always fun to catch all of the interesting pictures and quotes and stuff that he shares.
I am excited to learn more about his family’s unschooling experience, so to get us started, Nick …
Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?
NICK: Sure, I have been married to my wife for almost twenty years. We have five kids as you said, and my oldest is seventeen, Rosie, Isabella is thirteen, Nick Jr. who is eleven, Evangeline is nine, and Joshua, who is six.
PAM: Wow…
NICK: We have a lot of kids…
PAM: I would imagine that turns into a lot of fun, right?
NICK: Yes, it does.
PAM: Speaking of which, I do love hearing what unschooling kids are up to; it is always fun to see the kind of things that they are exploring.
I was hoping you might share what your kids are interested in right now.
NICK: Sure, it is mainly a lot of art in our house. I will start with my oldest daughter, Rosie, who is an active artist. A couple of years ago she was an illustrator for a children’s unschooling book, it is called, Bubbles and Puddles: Our Unschooling Adventure, by Kristie Howe. She drew all of the illustrations for the book and she just loves to draw. She was the first one who started drawing and it really led to the other ones sparking their interest in drawing.
My second daughter is a self-taught whale artist. Isabella draws orcas and all kinds of marine mammal life. It is just amazing; some of her pictures look like photos.
PAM: They do, yeah.
NICK: It is pretty amazing.
We just got back from California, actually. We took her to see some live dolphins off the coast. Hopefully she will get some inspiration from that.
Then my third son, Nick Jr., he is a chef; he loves to cook. I share his pictures as well, this kid could out-cook all of the adults I know. He makes everything from scratch and he is very passionate about it, that is one thing that he just loves to do. Most kids want toys and things like that, and he wants kitchen utensils.
Evangeline is another little artist. What is cool is that she started younger than my first two and she has her older sisters to help her out, so I am really excited to see what her drawings are going to look like as she progresses. She likes to draw a lot of original characters and things like that.
My fifth, Joshua, is a video game addict; he loves the challenge of video games, he is very competitive, whoever plays with him knows that he is going to be very competitive; he loves to win. He loves Epic Mickey 2 right now, he can play that game over and over again.
PAM: That is awesome. I remember trying the first Epic Mickey, that was really hard for me.
NICK: He will watch YouTube tutorials, and he works through that, before even six years old.
PAM: That is awesome. I love hearing what they are interested in because they just throw themselves into it! It’s not like “That’s my kids interest.” No, they are just human beings throwing themselves into whatever it is. It is just so fun to watch them, isn’t?
NICK: It is just their passion and it is just like, you see it—the freedom they have. They could be in school all day but why when they could be really learning their passion with things that really excite their soul and the freedom of being a human being just to do what you want, uninhibited.
It is amazing, it is truly magical to watch and I am truly honoured as a father that I am able to see it in my children.
PAM: I love that phrase you used, “excite their soul,” because that is what it looks like, isn’t’ it? I am speechless…
NICK: It is truly magical, sometimes it’s just, “Wow.”
PAM: I know, that is awesome.
I was hoping you could share with us what your family’s move to unschooling looked like.
NICK: Well actually, it is a pretty interesting journey.
I actually started when I was very young, I was in public school, and I was born and raised in Las Angeles, so I was in the California education system. I really disliked school. I was never bullied or anything, I had friends, I grew up with all the kids on my block. I had great friends, there was no problem with that, it just was boring to me, it was just a complete, utter bore. I knew there was always something better for me.
Then, when I was in the fourth grade, my dad wanted to go back east—he was originally from West Virginia and he wanted to go see his family, so he went and asked the school, “Hey, I am taking my son back east for a couple of months, is there any way you guys can put the work together so he can do it?” and they were like, “No, you just have to take him out and go register him wherever you are going.”
So, they took me out, but they did not register me in the new school, so I truly experienced what it was like to be living life without school, and it was amazing. So, from being very small in the fourth grade to realize what school was…we came back and they put me in, they put me right where I had left off, they did not tell me anything, they just put me back in the class like nothing ever happened. That really impacted me young; what the true meaning of school was and from then on it just really resonated with me what the school system was about.
PAM: So, have any of your children been to school at all?
NICK: They have not.
When we first started, we knew we were going to homeschool from the beginning, but we put the oldest in a homeschool program—a charter school that gave us a curriculum. The whole thing with that was that she was in kindergarten and the California state testing came along and she was fearful of the test and we told her, “We do not care what you score, you could write anything,” but the fear that kept coming across really made us think and realize what it was about.
During a homeschool group, someone introduced my wife to Thomas Jefferson Education, a book, and from that, she read a John Holt book, and just realized there was so much more out there than the schooling system.
PAM: That is really cool.
What were the pieces that resonated with you as she was reading John Holt and bringing those ideas into your lives? What were the pieces that helped you feel really confident about moving to unschooling?
NICK: Like I said, a lot with my own personal experience, and especially in high school.
My parents were very supportive of me and in high school I still had the same feelings of not wanting to be there, so I started ditching. I lived in LA, I had a bus pass that would take me anywhere in LA County, so I would take off. My parents didn’t know at first and I would go to the Tonight Show.
There was only one time I got stuck in downtown LA at 11:00 at night and I had to call my parents and tell them because they thought I was at a friends’ house. I am very grateful to my parents; they did not get mad, I had to wait for my dad to get off work and come and get me, but my parents always respected that. They always saw and knew that I was different, that it was a different journey for me, so I was really thankful that my parents were really respectful of me for that.
They let me drop out of my senior year. At the time I had no idea, but my dad got a job transfer to Honolulu. I was going to go register for high school but I did not really want to, I would rather explore Hawaii, and so it was really cool that they did not force me to go. I would surf and they let me get a job, so I got a job in my senior year of high school and I started exploring Hawaii and their culture, and it was really true life experience.
So, when it came to learning about John Holt and I mean, that man is amazing, just everything about what he writes really resonated with everything that we wanted for our children.
PAM: It is almost like a light bulb isn’t it? You knew it internally, but it did not really come out until you read that, and it is like “Well yeah, of course, that makes so much sense.”
NICK: Yeah. At first I thought, this kid would be in school and here I am, a high school drop out, and that there is a piece of a light bulb, there is so much once you realize and you see what life is about, a light bulb goes off and then you can’t look back.
I do not question unschooling. I can’t think of any other way as our family grows and everything about it encompasses our daily lives—it is just amazing.
PAM: And does that help you look back more positively too, on that high school time and your parents being ok with you exploring Hawaii, for example, instead of finishing high school and you getting a job and that kind of stuff? Do you look more positively on that now?
NICK: Definitely. There is the whole self-education movement and it has never stopped me from being who I wanted to be, and it is like many people say that you need to have a diploma, you need to have a degree, you need to have so many things in life to be successful, but to be honest, it has never stopped one thing I wanted in life. That degree or a job I needed, or my business; it has never been in the way. Actually being able to teach myself along the way has helped me more than I think school ever did for me.
PAM: That makes a lot of sense.
So then, what for you was the most challenging aspect of moving to unschooling?
NICK: You know, I think it would have to be family, because me and my wife, we are pretty much always on the same page with a lot of things in life, but our family has been pretty unsupportive, like, “you guys are crazy.”
I think that was a challenge because you are just constantly having a Facebook post trigger somebody, and it is like, your cousin’s daughter is a teacher and she wants to fight with you. So, I think that was the biggest part, and as the years go by when people try to ask me or pick their unschooling fights, I am over it. If people get it, they get it, if they don’t, they don’t. I mean, I can talk to them.
So many people are just like, “How dare you? Kids need school,” and it is just like, I am at this point where I see it in my own life, I see it in my children’s lives, I see the incredible things my children do, it is just the family…it is hard because sometimes people are close to the family and it is just like when you finally get over caring what they think anymore and it is just like, “Hey we know what we are doing, at the end, you will see our kids flourish and everything,” and I think that is the whole point. I think the family was probably the hardest, the most challenging aspect of it overall, all those years ago when we started.
PAM: Did you find yourself, when you were first starting, kind of pulling away for awhile because you found that it was conflicting? I know for us, for awhile that first year we did less family occasions because they were so confrontational because it was new to them. They felt they could change our mind and I was still learning and getting comfortable, because I didn’t have experience yet. I hadn’t spent a year or two seeing my kids unschooling and knowing in my bones that this was awesome. We were just trying it out, so that was one of the things that helped us, did you find that as well?
NICK: I think one of the biggest things that was really helpful is that we moved from California and all of both sides of our families are in California. So basically, we only see them a couple of times a year so that daily thing, besides the Facebook posts, was really moving away to really be us, and really be who we are.
My parents have always been supportive of it and they moved to Arizona with us, and the whole support of that with us, my wife and us as a team, as a family, I think helped and that whole move really helped a lot where it was not this bombardment of it every day.
PAM: What was behind the move, was that something that just happened coincidentally?
NICK: Yes, it was.
PAM: It was a coincidence?
NICK: It was a coincidence. In our business we sell at fairs and festivals, and we were doing a couple of events in Arizona and just the cost of living in Arizona was much cheaper than California at the time. It was about 10 years ago, before the whole collapse of the economy and housing and everything here was just so much cheaper. It just so happened that at that ten-year mark, when the whole school thing was happening with my daughter, we were leaving and we moved here and that is when we really started our journey without school.
PAM: That is really interesting; that is cool how it worked out.
What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives?
NICK: The most surprising thing would be how children teach us.
At first, I did not realize, when you are open and you have an open relationship with your children and you have a good relationship with your children, and you are your children’s friends—I mean, our children are our best friends—they truly teach you about everything.
There are some things that my son will come up to me and talk to me about something in World War II and he is only 11 and it’s like, “Oh wow, thank you for that information.” The knowledge they have, overall it is just amazing; just the facts and the things that they know. Truly I don’t believe that if my children were in school … the art, the creativity they have, I think it would be stifled. Because they would have to come home and do homework and then we would have to constantly be on them. The whole thing just allows them to be creative and let everything flow; just natural living.
PAM: I love that idea of flow, that is something that I was totally surprised by. Because before that, so much of our day is scheduled and organized and you think that being hands off and not having that schedule, you just kind of assume you will just sit around and do nothing unless we plan it, but that is so wrong.
NICK: Yes, definitely.
PAM: And you are right about how much they teach us, because once you are on equal footing as people, as human beings, and everybody is just sharing what they find interesting with each other, it is amazing all of the bits and pieces that they pick up and it is so lovely when you can say, “Thank you, I didn’t know that.” And that happens so often, doesn’t it?
NICK: Every day. Every day is something new, every day is truly about freedom to allow them to access things. To really access technology, to access the information on the internet. My younger kids; the little ones do not know how to read but they can talk to google and ask the little tablet anything they want in the world and that information is at your finger tips.
That is the amazing part, when they are curious about something like the election, we don’t really talk about politics, but they will come up to us and talk about politics or just a million things that you would not even think little kids would talk about, but that freedom and that flow is just so magical. Kids are interested in things, they are interested in the world, they are interested about a lot of things, and when you give them that freedom to explore the world, what it truly is, they explore and they learn and it is truly magical.
PAM: I love that word, magical, because it does seem like that, doesn’t it?
I mentioned earlier that you post regularly on Facebook and Instagram as ‘The Unschool Dad’ and you share a lot of great inspirational quotes as well as pictures from your unschooling lives. I really enjoy following you guys so I would love to know, what inspired you to start that project?
NICK: Actually, that was kind of a mistake. I just created the account one day, ‘The Unschool Dad,’ to share memes I liked, or quotes I liked off the internet, so I would not hurt people; I was tired of arguing with people, like I said.
One day, I had my mother’s cousin’s daughter, who was training to be a teacher, and they were just totally offended and it got into this big heated argument, so I was like, ‘You know what, I am just tired of this; these people just do not get it. I’m going to make a page, and I am just going to share memes that I see on the internet that I like so I can go back and look.’
Somehow one meme got shared and went viral and, all of a sudden, I had 1,000 followers and then 2,000 followers and now I have almost 47,000 followers and it is just word of mouth, I have never put anything into it. I would like to blog, but I do not really have the time. Probably eventually I will start blogging, to share our experiences as a family, but it is just really cool how it has grown.
Sometimes it is hard work to really keep up with it, but the messages I get, “Oh, thank you for showing us that this could be done,” that inspires me to do more to show people there is really another way, to give your children freedom, and I get more positive reactions. Like I said, I get pissed off at the teachers every once in awhile, but it is more positive than anything, just really helping families see another way to live their lives.
PAM: I love that it started because you were posting things on your personal page, right and that was sparking discussion so then when you made an unschooling focused one, you are more attracting people that are interested in that. That is brilliant.
NICK: With Instagram, it is more focused because it is people that want to see you. On Facebook sometimes the algorithms of Facebook share it to somebody that does not want to see it and somebody likes it and they will show it to somebody, a specific family member who goes, “Oh how dare you! What are you thinking? That’s child abuse.”
PAM: Less often?
NICK: So once again, I like Instagram. It is more directed at people that want to follow you; it doesn’t show up in somebody else’s newsfeed, so that helps a lot.
PAM: Very cool, and I loved your point about how sometimes that can be the first light bulb moment for someone, because those memes are like little seeds, aren’t they? They may just pass and pass and then they start to connect in the background for people and then they get more curious. I think it is lovely.
NICK: Yeah, definitely. Even some people have been like, “Oh wow, I never thought of that.” When you incorporate this unschooling and attachment parenting and peaceful parenting and overall just truly respecting children. When they see a child for who they are, a human being, and that is what it really comes down to.
We treat children like they are some kind of oddity, “Oh, you need to do this; for these 12 years you need to go to school and learn all of these things,” but truly, just for the human rights of a child, to see who they are, to really let them blossom, is magical.
PAM: That is so true. I mean, because we start with unschooling, but quickly we get to the foundation, like what simmers underneath that. Unschooling is built on these relationships with our children, and that is human—even if school has to be in the picture, you can still have respectful, trusting, loving human being based relationship with your child, right?
NICK: Yes, definitely. At the beginning of this school year, my children were interested in this online school, my eleven-year-old and nine-year-old. So, they asked us, and we respected their decision and we enrolled them. One of them did not start it; my daughter did not start it, she said forget it, and my son did it for a week but could not stand it. I respected their decision to try it, and they tried it and now he knows that he didn’t like it, but he had the chance to do it and it was just so time consuming.
There was a homeschool part with a curriculum where he had to sit there at least for 5 hours in front of the computer and did all their common core math and he realized what it was about and after a week he asked not to do it. It was truly amazing to let him make that decision about his schooling, not like “You have to do this.” At 10-11 years old that he knows he has the freedom to choose what he wants in life. My happiness comes from his happiness; what he wants to do. Really the pleasure of life is to see them happy.
PAM: Yeah, for me that where my Living Joyfully website came from. Because you realize that when you are pursuing those things that get us excited, that bring us joy, that make us happy, where even the negative things that happen and everything—that is all life. Those are experiences that mean something to us because we are pursuing them from our own volition, because we are interested. When we are pursuing the things that are fascinating to us, that is when we just learn so much no matter what happens in the end, right?
NICK: Yes, definitely.
Like, for example, with reading. I think this is probably a lot of people—it is good that we do not live around family because I never forced my children to read and the desire came from playing video games to chat, it is truly magical.
I think that the whole magical thing about unschooling is watching your child learn how to read naturally. And from being inspired from something they love, with my older two it was a big thing a couple of years ago. They had subscriptions but you had to chat with other people in the group and so they asked, “Hey, we want to read.” It is just truly magical; seeing their desire to learn. Most people are like, “Your kid is 10 and doesn’t know how to read yet,” but it seems like that is the age when my children really had the desire. We never had to force them, we just let it flow, and to see that flow of reading and see it naturally and from a passion, from their desires to learn how to read.
My daughter seems like she can write better than I can, and she never had any kind of formal curriculum on any of this, but I see them write and I see them talk. Especially my oldest—communicating with other people and I’m just like, “Wow, can you teach me?”
PAM: (Laughter) I know.
They are so focused within the curriculum in schools to teach the skill because, ‘this is a skill that you will need,’ but when you have the patience to follow that flow, the need for those skills comes up in life, naturally, doesn’t it? And to see them hit that … for them, picking up that skill is not about the skill, it is about satisfying the need, and they will pick up that skill along the way.
NICK: Yes, when you let it flow naturally, and just all of the things like math and all of the little things—I understand there are some children that pick up reading early, there are some children that want to read earlier—but when you see it and you let it flow through everything in life.
For thousands of years, humans learned naturally. When you let it happen and you get there, and you do not force it, you are just there helping them. And I think that is the important part, is that you have to be there. I mean, me and my wife are constantly with our children. You have to be there to help them, and guide them, answer their questions, or help them spell something. And when you are there, and you are just part of your children’s lives, you just see it all. You come together and it is truly a magical lifestyle that we live, it is just amazing.
PAM: And that is such a good point too, because, like you say, when you are with them, if they are not at a place where reading is going to come together for them, we are there to help them, to read for them, so that you do not hold a skill hostage on them, you know what I mean? “If you want that, you have got to figure out how to read.”
NICK: Actually, we had a problem like that; that is a perfect example.
We had a family member that came over and he has a college degree and he is into engineering and he got my son all of these different little engineering things and he told him (this was a couple of years ago), he said “I am not going to teach you because you can’t read.” We were flabbergasted. It was like, you missed a moment with this child that you could share all of your knowledge with, but you told him that because he cannot read you are not going to help him.
And it was just amazing that people think this way. He could have probably learned way more by you sitting there explaining to him the things, because then you are applying it to something that he is excited about in his life, but instead choosing not to connect with him. It was just crazy to us to think that somebody would say that.
PAM: Yeah, I know, it just makes no sense. Just because it is not something that comes up in our lives. Like you said, it was somebody from the outside coming in and sometimes it surprises you because it has been so long since you have seen that kind of approach or attitude towards kids, right?
NICK: Yeah, that is what has helped in moving away. I mean, 98% of my friends on Facebook are unschoolers, so over the years I have been surrounded and our friends are unschoolers, so when somebody outside approaches, it is just like, “Oh, we have been doing this for a long time, I think we know it works.”
PAM: And our last question, Nick.
As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just started out on this journey?
NICK: I think the biggest thing and one of my favourite quotes by John Holt is to really trust children. “To trust children we must first learn to trust ourselves,” and, I think, just be open-minded, you know what I mean?
And I know I see this question a lot in groups. I do not really participate in groups, but I see them, or some friend will send me a message, asking like “How do I convince my husband to unschool?” or “My mother in law does not get it.” And I think that the biggest part for dads is to really trust your children and just be open-minded; but a supporter, be a listener.
I know sometimes dads go away for work and they are working a lot, so it is a lot of times the responsibility of the mom with the kids. Really listen to your spouse, your significant other on what is really going on. Be supportive. I mean, children are learning, when you give them that environment of freedom.
So many times our society says, “Not this, not this.” We constantly want to restrict, restrict, but children are very good at self-regulating when you give them the freedom to be on the internet and explore what they want. Let them explore; our future is technology.
Give them the freedom to be who they are, and I know many people, like my example, my passions, when you learn about your passions, you are learning about something new, you learn just like your children will learn. Just overall really trust, respect the child. Just respect and be supportive and unless there is some kind of developmental thing where your child is not learning, they will learn, they will get it as long as you are there, as long as one parent is there guiding them and directing them, they are learning and you are giving them that freedom to pursue what they want. They are going to learn.
PAM: I love that; I think that open-mindedness is so important because it is such a big leap. It is so unconventional at first, isn’t it? But if you can have that open-mindedness and just hold that trust for awhile and let things flow, you will see for yourself; all of these things will happen, won’t they?
NICK: Yes, definitely. Like I said, it is hard for some people to realize, like with that whole school thing, and then coming to something where you let children be free, it is a really hard decision, but it is really well worth it. It is really worth it just to see them and just to blossom into these amazing human beings, these amazing people.
And another thing I think that dads do, they think they need to be this father figure and set these rules in their house. But free your children from arbitrary rules, and just be your children’s friend. I have amazing relationships with my children. Our teenagers are amazing human beings. You see people complain about their teenagers and it is just like, I cannot complain. We are really friends. They are amazing.
When you give them freedom and you respect them, you have to be their friend and they will come to you. When my daughter has a problem, she comes to my wife or I, when she is sad. With any outside influence where they are bothered, they come to you, and that is the effect of unschooling I want, is that they come to us instead of finding some other kind of thing to fulfill their need. When they can know that they can come talk to us we can help them solve the problem or figure something out, and I think that is what the true experience is about.
PAM: Yeah. They know that we have their backs, right? That they are not going to be judged, they are not going to be … punished. I could not think of the word! It has been a long time!
But yeah, when you are on the same team, that does not mean that things are perfect or anything like that because stuff happens in life, things go wrong, but when they know you have their back, like you said, they are going to come to you. They know you have the experience, they know you love them, and they have this comfortable relationship with you to sort through things and to try to figure out a path forward, right?
NICK: I think that is the biggest thing that made my public schooling tolerable was that I knew my parents had my back, like from being very little, I was the youngest; my brothers and sisters were older and had already moved out, and my mom always had my back.
From when I was little, I remember being three or four, and we were somewhere and I was just looking at candy, and the lady said, “Don’t touch that,” and my mom immediately told that lady “Hey, don’t talk to my son like that.” So, from being very little, I knew my mom would stand up for me.
Throughout my school when I knew something was wrong, no matter if I was right or the school was right or if I was wrong, I could go home to my mom and my mom would be right down at the school telling them where to put it. That is very important, especially because I grew up in the inner city of LA; there were a lot of gangs and things like that and I could have been influenced any way, but I knew my parents were very supportive of me. That is true that that is the most important key in all of it, just being there for them, and helping them through life so they know they can come to you and not go somewhere else.
PAM: That is such a great point, Nick, and I think you are right; it boils down to that relationship in the end, doesn’t it? And that relationship lasts a lifetime, not just for the compulsory school years. You are building a life with them.
NICK: Yeah, it is a lifestyle. It is our whole life and a lot of people think this unschooling is an education method for your children, but it is not, it is life. Like my wife and I, when we first started going this way, it helped us question things in life. It made us better critical thinkers of so many other things in life, and we are learning and it is just amazing overall, the knowledge, and the things you start questioning over and over, and it is just like, it is a lifestyle. Everything encompasses your life; learning and growing, and questioning. It is just awesome.
PAM: That’s right. It is awesome.
Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today, Nick. I had so much fun, thank you!
NICK: Thank you for having me. And for having me share.
PAM: Yeah, I loved hearing a bit more about your story, that is great.
And before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online if they would like to follow along as well?
NICK: On Facebook, The Unschool Dad, or Instagram, at The Unschool Dad.
PAM: Perfect, and I will share links to that in the show notes.
Thank you so much, Nick, have a great day!
NICK: Bye.
EU383: Foundations: Connection
Mar 27, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Connection.
How connected we’re feeling to the people in our lives is a helpful barometer of our relationships. Feeling disconnected can be a sign that it’s time to more intentionally cultivate connecting moments.
Anna shares one of the questions that guides her decision-making: ‘Is what I’m about to do going to enhance or harm my connection with this person?’ We also explore the idea of bids for connection, which can be an enlightening lens through which to view our interactions.
We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
EPISODE QUESTIONS
What does connection with another person feel like for you?
What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? How might those overlap?
How do you typically react when an attempt to connect with someone goes unexpectedly?
Would that change if you framed it as learning something new about them?
What bids for connection do you notice and are you responding in the way you’d like to?
TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are excited you found us, and are interested in exploring our relationships and who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we choose to move through the world. And in today’s episode, we are going to talk about connection.
So, connecting with another person on an emotional level creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, of understanding and appreciating each other in that moment. Regularly cultivating connection with someone builds a stronger and stronger relationship with them. You get to know and understand each other better. You come to anticipate their needs and they, yours.
So, for me, how connected I’m feeling to another person is kind of a barometer of our relationship. If I’m feeling disconnected, I more purposefully seek out connecting moments with them. A connecting moment might be sharing an activity together, from watching a movie, going for a walk, playing a game, whatever feels good together.
But the really important piece for it to be connecting is that the other person needs to enjoy it. This was something that I had to learn along the way. It’s not particularly connecting for me to cajole my partner into going for a walk with me if they don’t enjoy walks. They will likely spend a good chunk of that time looking forward to it being over, rather than enjoying each other’s company. They will just have that in the back of their mind. “Have we walked long enough? Have we walked far enough? When’s it time to turn back?”
So, if I want to connect with someone, whether it be a partner, child, friend, it is helpful to suggest an activity that they enjoy. They will also feel seen and heard by that. “Oh, they know how much I love to go for a walk. Yay!” Or, “to play that game, yay!” etc. That will help them feel seen as the person they are by me, because connecting with another person really is about seeing and celebrating them for who they are, not who I wish they were. That is a subtle but very important difference.
And in that space of enjoying an activity together, often we can both chat more freely and openly, learning more about what’s up in each other’s days, sharing what we’ve been enjoying, and what challenges we may be feeling. That is connecting with them. It doesn’t need to be anything big, doesn’t need to be anything special, but doing things together that we enjoy opens up that space for connecting and conversations and sharing little pieces of ourselves with each other.
So, what does connection look like for you, Anna?
ANNA: You know I’m excited to talk about connection! I keep connection as a lens for just about everything. I often ask myself, is what I’m about to say or do, going to enhance or harm my connection with this person? And if I’m honest about that and act from a place of choosing connection, conflicts are avoided. The lines of communication remain open. Because here’s the thing. So, I’m choosing to be in relationship with this person. I love them. I want us to enjoy our time together, so I want to take ownership of who I am. I want to act from a place of being the person that I want to be. And for me, that person is kind and compassionate and extends unconditional regard to my loved ones.
Do I fall short of that sometimes? Yes. Yes, I do.
But if I keep connection as the lens, if I check in about my actions before acting, I can choose to be that person more and more. And it becomes easier and easier.
The other thing about being connected that I want to talk about is that we’re on the same team. I talk to a lot of couples who are approaching disagreements or meeting their needs as basically this zero-sum game. When, instead, we keep our connection at the forefront, we’re able to approach problems and meeting each other’s needs as a puzzle that we’re solving together. We’re on the same side.
We can give each other that generous assumption, which is basically we love each other. We’re in this together. We want to help each other feel seen and heard. We want each of our needs to be met. Coming from that place leaves a world of possibilities that we cannot see when we’re tunneling in and defending our own needs without regard for the other in this oppositional, volleying back and forth, defend and receive.
PAM: Exactly. Feeling connected with another person really does feel like we’re on the same team. I love that. We are in alignment. We want to help each other get our needs met and work toward accomplishing our goals.
For me, that feeling of being on the same team makes all the difference in our interactions, in our connection. Conflicts, or even just conversations, aren’t that back and forth of offense and defense and winner and loser and how many times have they won and how many times have I lost, etc. It is just a team effort in creatively trying to meet everyone’s needs and wishes and help each other along. That just feels so much better, too.
ANNA: So much better.
PAM: One thing I also wanted to mention is that sometimes our attempts at connection may not land with the other person. They may even go sideways, like, what the heck? That is totally okay. Like really, that’s okay. It is not a failure. We don’t need to take that personally, as an attack on us. Again, like offense/defense.
In fact, same team, when you bring that lens, we can often use that to learn a bit more about them. Oh, what was it about that thing? Was it the activity that they weren’t interested in? Were they busy with somebody or something that’s important to them? Maybe they’re stressed about something that’s going on in their life, like a work issue. Something else has their focus. So, it doesn’t need to be a rejection of us. It’s like, oh, there’s other things going on in our life. And we can really be so quick to take everything personally. I definitely know that I can, but when I can take that moment to remember, no, it doesn’t need to be about me, per se. What else is going on? It is so interesting and so often, that’s really the case. They’re not trying to piss us off or trying to make us feel bad.
None of that.
ANNA: It’s not about us at all usually.
PAM: Exactly. Or in that moment, maybe we can learn a bit about ourselves or maybe both. Right? Maybe we put out-sized expectations on the other person. Maybe we didn’t end up enjoying the activity and we’re the one who’s distracted instead of engaged in the moment. Maybe we were tired, like we just felt like we needed to do this thing and we pushed ourselves to try and connect with them, but in the end, it didn’t turn out very well for us. Life happens. We learn from that experience and we try again.
We are always learning. There is just so much about each other. When we’re talking about relationships, there’s so much to learn, because we are different in each moment. When we’re tired, we’re different in that moment. The things that we can do are different, the conversations that we can have, but being more open and honest about those moments, it is so helpful for relationships.
And it also helps to be open to noticing when your partner or your child is trying to connect with you and try to be responsive in those moments.
If we are stuck in our heads, it can feel like we’re the only one prioritizing the relationship. We feel like we’re the only ones inviting and inviting. But if we can notice, so often, we may not realize what it is at first, but when they invite us to join them, chances are they are looking to connect with us. And it may look very different than how we might want to connect with them, but a connection is just as valuable either way.
And, in fact, it enhances relationship when the connections go both ways. There’s a term that we toss around, we learned about last year or so, was it? Bids for connection. You want to talk about that a little bit more?
ANNA: Yeah, I definitely want to touch on bids for connection. I think the idea comes from the Gottman Institute. The funny thing about them is they don’t always look straight forward like, “Hey, I want to feel closer to you now.” Sometimes it looks like picking a fight or a grumpy comment. Sometimes it looks like asking for something that we can do ourselves. “Hey, can you get me water, even though you have to walk in front of me to go get the water that I’m asking for?” Sometimes it looks like pulling away or getting quiet. And as we learn more about each other, we see the bids for what they are and the underlying need that they’re trying to meet. And then we can check in and respond with kindness and that can open up the lines of communication and avoid a situation where people don’t feel heard.
Love languages can also play a role here. Knowing how we give and receive love can help make sure that what we’re putting out is love is being received as such.
But with the bids, like you said, it’s so interesting, because we’ll be in our heads about, I want to make this relationship better, and maybe that person’s telling us a story from work and we’re actually still in our head thinking, “We’re not doing relationship things,” or we’re not doing the thing the way it looks in our head.
But really, wanting to share that bit from work or the child wanting to share the bit about their game, that is the bid for connection. That is them wanting to bring us into their world. And so, for me, I just want to keep really open to that. I just want to be open, so that I’m seeing that in the people that are around me that I love, and that I’m acknowledging that and I’m responding.
And yes, like you said earlier, sometimes we have capacity issues to deal with. Sometimes there just isn’t enough, or the time is not right, or we’re tired. But I find even in those situations, when I see the bid, I’m able to acknowledge the bid. Even if I can’t dive in fully to maybe what they’re needing for the, in that moment, it’s so much better than brushing it off.
PAM: Yes, when you can acknowledge it and be a bit transparent by saying, “Ah, that’s wonderful. I love that. I can’t wait to join you, or I can’t wait to hear that story. I’m just really tired right now. Can we do it in the morning? Can we do it after I’ve had a nap? Or I’m just going to sit here and have a tea or a coffee for a few minutes,” to acknowledge so that they feel seen and heard in that moment.
And there was one other thing that came up. So, as we’ve been talking this whole time about connection, and you touched on this and I think it’s super important, is the idea that we can have these visions in our head of what being in relationship means. And it can mean all sorts of fancy things in our head. We can have these visions of, we need to go out on a date every week, right? We need to go outside of the house, all these pieces. And the everyday connection doesn’t count. But, truly, in the everyday connection, that is the foundation. Those are the connections that we’re building.
It doesn’t mean we don’t do the bigger things. It just means the relationship isn’t on hold between the bigger things.
ANNA: Exactly. And this is what we were talking about that I said in the first episode that we’re going to keep repeating, it’s that outside voice, because I think we come into it maybe from movies, whatever, that we had this idea of what relationships look like, but it really is the everyday of just sharing the ups and downs and getting the things done around the house and just moving through our days together that builds that foundation, that then we can do all these other fun things and big things. Because the reality is, the big fun things are going to be sprinkled throughout our year. But if that’s what we’re pinning our hopes on, that’s not going to get us through. So, we have to figure out how to keep that connection alive and rich and wonderful in those everyday moments. And it is listening for those bids. It is being available.
PAM: Yes. And just think for a moment, when you have that connection going throughout your days, your every days, you’re already pretty well connected when those bigger moments come. And how much more fun are those when you’re already connected, instead of thinking-
ANNA: We’re going to get it there!
PAM: We have to go and relearn each other for our weekend away. Let’s reconnect, finally.
ANNA: Right. And isn’t that why some of those things go awry? Sometimes, we have this idea like, we’re going to have this amazing date, or we’re going to take this amazing trip and then it ends up falling flat. But I think so much of that is because maybe we haven’t been tending to those pieces in between, and so, we’re pinning our hopes on this big time away or this big thing, and it falls a little bit short.
So, yeah, I think that’s super interesting to watch for and think about.
PAM: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, I have some questions to share for people to ponder as they’re exploring connections, alongside all the ones we’ve already talked about.
So, what does connection with another person feel like for you?
What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? What do you love to do together? How can these different things overlap? It doesn’t always need to be one thing. Sitting on the couch together or playing a game together, those are all perfectly wonderful ways to connect.
How do you typically react when an attempt to connect, a bid for connection that we’re putting out, goes unexpectedly? So, when you offer up, “Oh, let’s sit down and have a coffee together, or a tea together,” and they say no, how do you typically react? How does that feel? Would that change if you framed it as a learning something new about them? “Oh, I didn’t know they were really into the thing they were doing. Oh, I didn’t know that thing went strange at work today, and you’re really worried about that,” because those things going awry are actually opportunities to learn more.
And then, again, let’s think about the bits for connection coming the other way. Just keep an eye open for that over the next little while. I love what you said that the bids don’t always look perfect. As in, “Let’s do this together!” It can be, “Oh, my gosh, I had such a rough day at work. I want to vent about it.” That is a bid for connection. That is some support another person is looking for. And we can learn more about their lives. It can be a child really frustrated about something that went wrong and what they’re trying to do, and they come to you. That’s a bid for connection, for some support in what they are looking to do. Maybe it’s the infamous, “I’m bored,” you know? They’re just looking to chat with somebody for a while.
There are so many possibilities when you just open up and start looking for what might potentially be bids for connections, opportunities for connection.
ANNA: Absolutely.
PAM: Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you next time. Bye.
EU382: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: It’s Not the Unschooling
Mar 13, 2025
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and this time, we’re talking about how it’s not the unschooling!
It can be really common for newer unschoolers to blame unschooling for the things that come up in their family lives. Unschooling was a big new change in their lives, and so it can feel like any problems that arise are probably due to that big new change. For conflicts about screen time or bedtime or food choices or communication, it might feel easier to blame unschooling, because then there’s something to change, something to fix, so that maybe the problem will go away.
But often when parents really dig down and are honest about what’s going on for their families, they will often find that it’s not really about unschooling. And so, examining this area can be really helpful when we come up against challenges or have areas of discomfort. In our conversation, we talked about how to approach the issues that come up in our lives regardless of whether our kids go to school or not, and the potential benefits of just forgetting about the word “unschooling” for a while!
It was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hi everyone! I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis.
Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey.
You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit LivingJoyfullyShop.com. Okay, so today’s episode is called, It’s Not The Unschooling, and I’m really excited about this one. But Erika, do you want to get us started?
ERIKA: I do. I think it might sound a little funny on an unschooling podcast to have an episode called, It’s Not the Unschooling, but we actually had a monthly theme in the Network by this name a while back, because it can really be a helpful lens when we come up against challenges or have areas of discomfort.
So, I thought I would just introduce the idea. Basically, it can be really common, especially for newer unschoolers, but definitely not exclusively newer unschoolers, to blame unschooling for various issues that come up in their family lives. I mean, unschooling was this big new change in their lives, and so it can feel like any problems that arise are probably due to that big new change.
So, for example, conflicts about screen time or bedtime or food choices or communication when kids are making decisions or the family’s making decisions. It might feel easier to blame unschooling because then there’s something to change, something to fix, so that maybe the problem will go away. But often when parents really dig down and are honest about what’s going on for their families, they will often find that it’s not really about unschooling.
After all, unschooling, the way we describe it here is just living life. And so whether children are in school or not, whether you’re parenting in a more mainstream or authoritarian way or not, parents and children will still be figuring it out. How to manage screen time, what to eat, when and where to sleep, what decisions they’re going to make.
And so unschooling isn’t what causes those issues to exist, and we all will grapple with them in some way at some point as a family. And so often if I just play around with the thought of, would my kids being in school or would me being a strict authoritarian parent make this situation any easier? The answer is an easy no, it would only add more layers of difficulty.
And so what I love about what I learned through the network and through my own unschooling journey is that it encourages me to focus on how my relationships I have with my children are feeling and it actually makes navigating some of those more challenging parts of life easier.
Easier sometimes feels like not quite the right word, because it’s sometimes not easy at all, but I feel more supported and feel better moving through the issues because of the relationships that we have. And so I could feel good about my choices when I’m prioritizing my relationships and treating my children the way they want to be treated.
PAM: I love that very much and I am very excited about this topic because it was something that I experienced quite a bit as we moved to unschooling, because my kids were a little bit older, they were in school when I discovered unschooling. And I think one of the big pieces as I was playing around with it was recognizing that what unschooling did was open up so many more choices for me.
The first one, they don’t have to go to school. They don’t have to do this. I, as a parent, don’t have to do that. It opened up so many choices just through discovering and exploring what it meant.
It was the discovery of unschooling that opened up my eyes to the fact that this could be a choice, that there wasn’t just one right way. So it was easy for others looking in and just blame the unschooling. But what I realized exactly as you were saying, Erika, when I asked myself, but if they went back to school, how would this be different?
Because I realized it’s one of those cases where my eyes were open and I couldn’t just go back and close them because I changed something else. Even if they go to school, I know it’s still a choice. Now, I will forever know that that’s a choice. Same with all the other issues. It was for me, the unschooling journey that opened my eyes to so much of it, to the relationships, to even more consensual day-to-day living.
So, even though I could kind of point to unschooling as the catalyst, it wasn’t the fault of unschooling, things wouldn’t go back. I would not be comfortable going back to life before discovering it, even if at this point. At that point had they ever chosen or wanted to go back to school or life circumstances changed and they needed to go back to school for a while or, you know, whatever came up, I was now a changed person. I couldn’t go back to who I was before, but it still meant it wasn’t the fault of unschooling, right? Even if they went back to school, I would still need to make those parenting choices and have conversations with my partner and now conversations with my kids, et cetera, et cetera.
ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s so interesting. Why I am excited to talk about this is what we’ve seen, especially on the network, but really even back in the day of the Yahoo groups, when people came with we’re unschooling and this is terrible. This thing is terrible and we kept thinking, okay, but that’s not really the unschooling.
But what we noticed was that it was a place to get stuck. Right? It was a place where they lost all creativity and as soon as we all would start talking, it happens on the network too. We’d just start talking, well, have you talked to them about this? Or What does that feel like? Or, how’s that relationship going? Or what are these other contextual pieces that are happening in your family? Then you see them just open up a little bit. Because it’s not about the unschooling. We can just start talking about what’s working for our family, what’s working for each individual, what it does it feel like when we have these conversations. And so we kind of challenged people in that month to just kind of let go of the word unschooling, which again, like you said, Erika, it seems that people are going, wait a minute, isn’t this the unschooling podcast?
But it really is about life and relationships, at its core. I think if you find that the word is causing problems in your discussion, whether it be with your spouse or your mother-in-law or someone else, let it go because there isn’t one way to be an unschooler. And I think that’s another big piece.
I think when we are looking at that, where we’re kind of blaming the unschooling, we’re putting unschooling ahead of our connection with our kids or what’s actually happening for the individual people. And that’s what we want to be cautious about. And interesting. Pam, you and I have talked about this before, that unschooling wasn’t something that I talked about with my kids, it wasn’t like a day-to-day conversation, especially when they were younger. It really was just like you said, Erika, we’re living life and we’re figuring things out about each other, and we’re being in relationship and we’re exploring the world.
And so I think it’s so interesting to just let go of something that might be causing you to narrow in your focus. And so that’s why I’m excited to talk about it today too. Because I think especially if you’re finding there are some rubs with your partner or with people in your family, see if that’s at play because a lot of times it is.
ERIKA: I love that. And it kind of feels like two things. So, one is this word unschooling, is the word a trigger for someone in your family? Is the word a trigger for yourself? Does it bring up a lot of feelings of, I have to do something a certain way because that’s a sign that maybe there are some other layers wrapped up in there.
And then the other part is just reaching for what was familiar, reaching for what I knew as a kid, or the control, right? Because we’ve seen that when things are stressful, when you get overwhelmed, you want to grab for control. That’s just like a human impulse. What can I control to get a handle on this situation?
And so maybe you’ll find yourself thinking things would just be so much easier if I could just make my kids go to bed at eight. Would it help me make my life better if I could just control them in some way. And so it can feel like a solution when it first pops into your head that the solution might be, I just need more control.
But then if you really start thinking about what that means, it’s really about I’m going to stop listening to my kids. I don’t care what they say anymore. This is damaging my relationship with them if I go down that path of thinking control will make my life better.
It just feels like a possible solution if I’m getting super overwhelmed. And so I think reaching for that familiar, well other parents just tell their kids what to do and they have to do it. And that makes life easy. If I follow the full thought process of what that means, it means disconnecting from my kids.
It means going against the things that I believe about the world, that everyone knows what’s best for them and I want to support them in learning about themselves. And so it’s separate from even the word unschooling. Those are two different things. Either the reaching for control or the blaming, this word, this scary word of unschooling when you first get to it.
I think it’s really interesting and digging down beneath, what’s really going on for me? What’s the context that’s causing me to have this kind of strong response to the idea of unschooling?
PAM: And I think that’s just such a beautiful and important stage of the unschooling journey.
And as I was thinking about it at the beginning, because this was a bigger thing at the beginning of our journey, because everything seemed to point to unschooling like I was talking about before. And I loved your idea, Anna, about just not using the word, try to have conversations for a little bit without using that word because it kind of becomes a catchall.
But if you can get underneath it, to really better describe, it helped me with conversations with my partner because unschooling was often coming up, but it was like, oh, but it’s grown kind of beyond that. And I think another thing that can trip us up, and we have had a whole series on the podcast about unschooling rules, but sometimes we can pull up the, oh, if we’re unschooling, we do this right? And that can really trip us up too, because that’s us conflating so many of the ideas that kind of come with unschooling. So, parenting styles and relationships and all those tools and different aspects of life.
We talk about them, in a way that helps unschooling thrive, which is really just learning through living this life. That’s where you eventually get to. But I do think at the beginning you can want to do unschooling really well, want to be a great unschooling parent.
What does it mean? I have those check boxes, right? And then unschooling gets into our minds in every aspect. And then it is so tempting to blame the unschooling when we start to get frustrated. Why if I just, if they just listened, I’d have this perfect solution and everybody. This would go so much more smoothly if we just all did this one thing, which is that kind of slippery slope.
If you’re valuing relationships, if you want to make that a priority in your life, which is part of choosing unschooling, right? It’s really hard to have an authoritarian, relationship or parenting style with your kids and have unschooling thrive. So, really just trying to not use the word unschooling for a while can help you get to the foundations of what does this actually mean to me?
And yeah, go back and listen to the unschooling rules podcasts, too. Because it’s not like they’re wrong, it’s just that they don’t have the context. If we just jump to unschooling says we don’t have a bedtime. And then you just take that in. There is just so little context for you to get your feet wet and really understand what’s going on.
So for a while, just not using that word I think can be really helpful to recognize how much of it really isn’t the unschooling.
ANNA: It’s true. I want to go back to what you were talking about, Erika, because I think that was an important piece for me. Because we can go to that quick snap judgment of, well this wouldn’t be a problem if we did this, or this is why this is a problem.
Taking that extra time, slowing things down, and actually walking through what it would look like helped me understand where I wanted to spend my energy. So, if we look at just school to take an example. Well, if they were in school, then we wouldn’t have whatever this problem is or this sibling fight during the day or this, whatever thing’s been going on.
If I walked through that, I recognized we’d be bringing a whole host of other things into our life. And so did I want to be at service of this other institution, making our days and weeks and years rotate around that schedule? Did I want to be worrying about whether they’re going to do homework or this or that?
Or did I want to figure out this problem in front of me, which has nothing to do with school, or not school, which is just basically, maybe we need something. Maybe I need to be hearing what’s happening between my two girls, or we need to figure out something else in our life. And so for me, it was about where do I want to spend my energy?
Which speaks to what you were saying, Pam, and I want to spend my energy on creating strong relationships. I don’t want to spend my energy fitting into another system necessarily. And if my child said I want to go into the system, absolutely be there to support them, that feels very different.
But if I’m just getting frustrated and saying, oh, it’s because we’re unschooling. That’s why they’re staying up all night or doing X. And it’s interesting because I think when you’ve been in other worlds, we have unschooled all along because it just happened naturally for us. But in the early years, David was working in a corporate environment.
And would just hear about the nighttime frustrations and all the things that were happening with very mainstream families, choosing all the conventional paths. And so it really does help to walk through it.
That’s where it gets us stuck, right? It gets us stuck on, it’s the unschooling, when in fact these are broader issues when we’re talking about food and sleep and parenting and sibling relationships, and all of that has really nothing to do with unschooling.
An unschooling environment can actually make some of those things easier, but it’s not a cure all and it’s not the cause. So, watch for when your thoughts are being limited by that, to just say, is this really a problem that would exist if we weren’t unschooling? And what would it look like and what other things might it be inviting in if we did?
Because I think it just, and for me, that’s always, I always talk about just slowing it down, just giving myself a pause, thinking a little bit more about it, walking through some of those scenarios, how would I feel in those different scenarios before I just run with the snap judgment and say it’s the unschooling.
ERIKA: Yeah, I had a thought when you were talking about the belief that unschooling means everything’s always going to be easy and great. That also might be a barrier here. Where we’re thinking, if I am having a problem, it’s definitely that we’re doing unschooling wrong, or that unschooling is the issue.
Because we’re not supposed to have any problems anymore. I found unschooling, now it should be easy. And so that could be another little place where we could get stuck and just have to think through, do that thought experiment that always works for me. Would it be an easier or a better life for me and my kids if we did this, if we sent them to school, if whatever.
It just opens up so many thoughts. And then I also feel like what you were talking about went back to Pam’s thing about the unschooling journey changing us. It’s about opening our minds to all of the possibilities.
I know you’ve talked about this before Anna before, that kind of comfort and safety that comes from being in the system and not being responsible for the different decisions that you’re making. And so there could be something about those mainstream parents that David was hearing, where it’s like they don’t really feel like it’s on them though.
They’re having the bedtime struggles, but they’ve heard what you’re supposed to do and they’re doing what you’re supposed to do. And if it’s not working, it’s just, not my fault, nothing we could do. It’s just really hard and we can complain about it, but I think the unschooling journey opened my mind, like you were saying, Pam, to just all the choices.
These are the actual choices, and we don’t have to be doing the one way. There is no one right way. And so now that I know that, there isn’t really a way to go back to trusting the system to make all of the decisions for me, or believing that there’s a right way and trying to find it, that’s just not how I can think of it anymore.
And so, in that way, unschooling is to blame, but only in that, now I know about all the choices. I do think that part’s interesting.
PAM: Yeah, I love that it really does just kind of open your eyes to so much. At first I thought, especially since my kids were leaving school, okay, we’re not doing school so how are we going to learn instead?
But then through unschooling that first year, it just opened up a whole world of new choices and curiosity. Hopefully, I don’t forget. There were two things I wanted to mention. One is when we’re doing this processing, I always go back to the beginner’s mind. When I tunnel in and I hear myself saying things like, but what’s the right way?
What’s the best way? Is unschooling the best way and everybody should be doing it? If I’m using language like that, it’s a clue. I don’t have to tell myself I’m wrong at all, but I want to open up to more possibilities because then I’m looking only for the things that match the one thing that I think is the right answer.
And that just throws me off. I’m not going to really understand the context. We talk about context so much. I’m not really going to see the people, the actual real people in my family. Which kind of leads to the other point I wanted to make.
When you’re hearing those different stories from other parents. I think often the thought is, I’m following all the recommendations, doing all the right things to get them to go to sleep, et cetera, and they’re not going to sleep. Then they can start blaming their kids for being wrong. They are not doing this. There is something wrong with them. I’m telling them, you go and you lie down and you listen and the lights off and you’ll go to sleep.
And not seeing the thing that we talk about so much, that people are different. I remember trying to help my kids go to sleep before when they were in school. That whole kind of evening thing, trying to help them individually and how they liked to get to sleep.
But so many of the recommendations were like, you say goodnight, turn off the light, close the door. They’ve had their snack, they’ve had their drink. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And so then you really think that I’m doing all the right things. My kids are just not performing correctly.
It’s a fascinating piece. And yes. Think we just lost Erika there for a second.
ANNA: I know. So I’m hoping she’s going to, she’s going to pop back in, but I’m going to keep talking. Okay, good, she’s coming back to us. Something she said I thought was really important and there was one little nuance I wanted to add to it that got me sparked when she was talking.
So basically that piece of, sometimes it’s easier to hand over our responsibility to the system, right? Well we’re doing all the things we’re supposed to do, so then I’m not responsible. If they don’t get educated at school, it’s the school’s problem. It’s not here.
So I think it’s interesting to think about. I want to ask myself, am I wanting to offload some responsibility? But then another nuance to that is what’s so beautiful about what we describe and talk about is that it isn’t all on me. We’re each on our own journey and it is about helping and facilitating each other.
So it’s not like this one thing needs to have all the answers. And then if I’m going to let go of that system, then I have to have all the answers. Me, Anna, the mom, the whatever, you know? No. We are exploring this together. We’re figuring out what works together. And that’s why for me, whether they choose to go to school or not go to school is really irrelevant.
It really is just, are we supporting the path that we all are wanting to take and exploring things in the way that we want to explore? So I think watching that piece was helpful for me. Am I trying to not have the responsibility and then, okay, if I take it on am I taking on just my pieces or am I trying to take on everybody’s pieces thinking I’m the only person that can solve it, fix it.
Thinking I’m ultimately responsible. I think parents are handed that a lot in our culture, right? That you’re responsible for raising your children. I guess what I learned for myself and my core beliefs are just that again, we’re all humans on our own individual journey, and I love being there to walk with my kids, support them, and facilitate things. But in the end, I’m not responsible for their life. That’s really up to them, the choices they make, and I can provide information and I can support, and I can give them the context of what’s happening around. But ultimately what I see is that they’re quite capable of making those choices for themselves.
And so I think there’s some interesting pieces to explore there. If you find yourself wobbling a little bit to go, okay, wait, am I taking on too much? Am I wanting to give it away? Because what’s interesting is when we give it away to a system, we’re kind of giving away other people’s power as well. So is there a discussion there? I don’t know. That is just what sparked when you were talking, Erika, so I’m glad you’re back.
ERIKA: I don’t think I have more to add about that, but I do love the things we talked about, just noticing those little things where it’s rubbing or where I’m reaching for control, reaching for a solution, or the one right way. Any of those things, I think that is kind of a sign to start digging a little bit deeper.
PAM: I would take that and then not using the word unschooling for a while and see what you discover. I think that will be super interesting to see. Well, how else would I describe it? Because so much of it is just life and relationships and who we want to be.
ANNA: Yeah, absolutely. So, thank you both so much. And to everyone listening to this conversation. I really enjoyed it and I hope you did as well. And I hope you’ll consider joining us at the Living Joyfully Network. We love to dive into these kinds of topics and think about it in all the different ways, and we have such amazing families there that are into these discussions as well.
So we would love to welcome you. To learn more and to join us. Just follow the link in the show notes, or you can go to the LivingJoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. Thank you again for joining us. And thank you, the two of you. It was great to see you.
PAM: Thanks very much. Bye bye!
ERIKA: Bye!
EU036 Flashback: Deschooling with Lauren Seaver
Feb 27, 2025
In this week’s flashback episode, we’re sharing an interview that Pam had in 2016 with Lauren Seaver about deschooling.
At the time of the interview, Lauren Seaver was an unschooling mom to 9-year-old River. She first considered the possibility of homeschooling way back when she was in college to become a teacher. Life took some turns, but the opportunity to try out unschooling with River arose and it was a great fit. Pam met Lauren at the Childhood Redefined Unschooling Summit in New York and really enjoyed chatting with her about her deschooling experience!
I think my biggest concern was that our unschooling life didn’t match the picture of what unschooling looked like in my mind. I had these unschooling fantasies about what my own personal unschooling path would have looked like if I were unschooled as a child. Letting go of expectations was so huge for me to be able to really relish what was actually happening in our unschooling lives. ~ Lauren Seaver
QUESTIONS FOR LAUREN
Can you share with us a bit about you and your family and how you first came across the idea of unschooling?
What was the biggest concern that drove your choice to move to unschooling this last year?
What were some of your fears or uncertainties as you began unschooling?
What has your move to unschooling looked like? Pretty smooth? A few bumps? Have you talked to River specifically about it? Or have you found the changes to be more internal to you, with you choosing to change how you respond to River and the expectations you have of him?
Can you tell us a bit about how your definition of learning has changed since discovering unschooling?
Did you find a difference between understanding the principles of unschooling intellectually and living them day to day?
What changes have you seen in River since leaving school?
What’s been the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far?
What has surprised you most about your journey so far?
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hi everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I’m here with Lauren Seaver. Hi, Lauren!
LAUREN: Hi Pam!
PAM: Just to introduce Lauren a bit to everyone, I had the pleasure of meeting her earlier this year at the Childhood Redefined Summit in Canandaigua, New York. Her enthusiasm for life is contagious and I’m so excited to dive into her deschooling experience, so let’s get started!
First can you share a bit with us about you and your family and how you first came across the idea of unschooling?
LAUREN: Yes. So I have one son, River, and he is nine years old and he is amazing and hilarious. He is a showman and he loves to dance and rap and ride bikes and play video games and he loves playing with his friends. We live with my boyfriend Aaron and our hamster Chewy. (Pam and Lauren laugh) Chewy is very important here. He really is.
And River also spends about two days a week at his Dad’s and stepmom’s house, so we are a blended family. His Dad and I separated when River was four but we have a really good relationship and River always had a great relationship with both of us and our partners so we’re just really lucky.
I also run my own business and when I’m working River usually is with my boyfriend Aaron or with his Dad. All of us have alternating schedules so it really makes unschooling doable while you’re working. We just feel really lucky.
We also live very close to my parents and my sister and our family is very supportive of unschooling which is so awesome. So that’s kind of us.
And the story of how we came into unschooling actually starts a long time ago, even before River was born. I was going to school to become a teacher so I was in college and as part of that I got to observe in a lot of different elementary classrooms and through that process I learned that not all teachers loved children and some teachers don’t even like children and it horrified me.
I thought, “oh wow, it’s almost like luck of the draw if you get a teacher that really likes children and loves learning,” and this was shocking to me. It was then while I was in college I thought maybe I should consider homeschooling because I love kids and I love learning. Gosh, wouldn’t it be fun to learn with my own kids! So already before meeting River’s Dad I was thinking homeschooling is where we’re going to go. I hadn’t heard of unschooling yet.
So then when I had River around five or six years later I had a home birth which is kind of alternative and with that home birth community there’s the attachment parenting community and all of that sort of leads into the homeschooling community. So it was almost like I had it all laid out for me. Through this attachment parenting community one of my friends recommended the Consensual Living yahoo group, which was created by Anna Brown from your podcast, and Pat Robinson, who are two amazing unschooling moms. And from there I learned of the Shine with Unschooling yahoo group, and the Always Learning yahoo group, and I was just like, “Oh, this is it! This is what I’ve been looking for!” Because I knew from my own experience as a teacher and as a person that we always, all of us, learn best when we are interested and passionately engaged in what we’re learning about and what we are doing, so it just was a no-brainer. Ok, we have to unschool, this is what we are going to do.
So that was the plan and so River was two at that time and I did a lot of paradigm shifting and we really lived in that manner as much as you can when they are so little. We didn’t limit TV or games or food or anything and that just seemed really normal and natural and it just worked. And you know, meeting River’s needs in creative ways and just living joyfully.
So that was great. And then when River was around four his Dad and I actually separated and then later divorced for all sorts of reasons, so everything kind of changed. I went to work full time out of the home and suddenly homeschooling and unschooling no longer seemed to be feasible. River had gone to this unique preschool that was two days a week in a homeschooling mom’s house and I was allowed sit next to him at the table and hang out and be there as long as he needed me. He really loved it so I was like well this wasn’t so bad maybe we can find a schooly option where he can go while I’m working.
We found a local school that was really alternative and their focus was very much on kids learning about what they were interested in and it almost had a democratic slant to it so I was like, “Alright, this could work.” He tried their summer camp for one day with the teacher that was with the youngest kids and he loved it so I thought, “Alright, let’s try it.” He ended up being in that lady’s classroom for two years and he loved it. He would run in every day. He would wake up and want to go to school and he loved it so much and I was like “Oh God, thank God, this is all working out.” Because all that I cared about was that he loved what he was doing because I knew that he would learn whatever he needed to learn as long as he was loving what he was doing.
And he and I are both pretty outgoing and love to be around people so I think that was part of what made this so fun for him. So the first two years were great and I was like, “Alright, this is great.” But then he began his third year of school and it was with a different teacher and this was second grade. He was seven and then turning eight that year. It was totally different. Everything changed. Even though this lady was really nice and the school still this alternative school, he didn’t love it anymore and half way through the year I was dragging him out of bed to get him to go to school. I felt like I was forcing him to go to school and that was against everything I believed in because I so deeply believe, then and now, that we learn best when we love what we are doing. It was clear that if I have to drag you out of bed you are not loving going here. I really felt like we needed a change. At this point I had quit my full time job and had just started my own business that would end up giving me a lot more flexibility and I brought up the idea of homeschooling to River.
He was like “No, no, I can’t. I want to be with my friends, I want to go to school. I really like it, it’s fine. No.” And so through the rest of the school year I just tried to support him as much as possible and kept bringing up the option of homeschooling. At the end of that year, which was, I think it ended in 2015, the school actually closed due to funding issues, and I said, “Ok, your school is closing, do you want to try homeschooling?” He was like, “Ok, let’s try homeschooling.”
As soon as school ended and we started homeschooling it was like, “Oh my god, this is amazing, this is what we have we been waiting for!” And we never looked back. He loved it and I loved it. So that’s our crazy, windy path to unschooling. I was always into it and wanted to do it and felt like we were supposed to, and then our lives were different and we didn’t see it as a possibility. So now we’ve been doing it for probably a year and three months I believe. Because I really count that, I count May of last year. In my heart, we started earlier. So that’s how we learned about it and now finally chose it.
PAM: That is awesome. I really loved hearing about how your perspective evolved through all that, the way you took those unschooling principles, or at least that perspective on learning and supporting each other, and have woven that into not only, as you said, your blended families and your extended family that is nearby, and right through always looking at River to guide you through those choices, right?
LAUREN: Absolutely. And I’m so grateful for that because that has been the foundation of our parenting and our lifestyle from the beginning. And I love that. It’s so wonderful. In all of my relationships, not just with River, it’s amazing. It’s very far reaching.
PAM: That was a wonderful story!
What was your biggest concern that drove your choice to move to unschooling?
LAUREN: So, like I said, River was not wanting to go to school. It changed from running in, to “I don’t want to get up.” The biggest issue I felt was reading. The school he was going to was really friendly and alternative. They have different, positive names for things, but he was basically in a remedial reading group and even though the teachers are kind and gentle, he still had reading homework and he felt this pressure to learn to read. He felt so much pressure way before he was ready and I knew this. I was like, “Wait, why are you pushing this? He will learn to read when he is ready. We don’t need to do this homework. We don’t need to do any of this stuff. It’s not helpful.”
I’m a passionate book lover and I knew that if he was just left alone to explore words and books and text and whatever, in whatever way it interested him, reading would come naturally whenever he was ready.
And I was really sad thinking that this kid who was so excited and awesome and hilarious and talented and enthusiastic was having a possibility for future love of learning squashed out of him by this experience, this emphasis that school was placing on this skill that he was not ready to learn.
I was heartbroken knowing he was feeling bad about himself, feeling bad about his own abilities around the idea of reading. When he would talk to me about it, the message he was receiving was basically you should be able to read these books right now and you are a failure because you can’t.
When I think back to it, I think, “How did I let him keep going to school?” Because it’s so awful. It was not the school’s intention. They were just trying to help him, but they are a school. They were like, “You need to learn this by this time.” That’s just how they think.
He would even say, “I’m bad at reading. I hate reading.” I was just like, “Oh, this is awful.” So that was my number one reason and then the other real reason was that I felt like I was supposed to be doing this all along and then this moment in our lives opened up where I realized, “Ok, now this is a real feasible time, a real possible time for us to do this, so let’s do it.” So that was a huge motivator.
PAM: Yeah, it was something in the back of your mind always and you were paying attention and you saw when those possibilities started to come together. Yeah, that’s cool. And what’s so interesting too is that whole reading piece. That was very much Lissy’s experience at school too. When she came home it was all, “I hate reading. I don’t want to read. I can’t read.” All those messages. And we just made sure to totally back off and it took about a year for her to move through, move past all those messages that she had gotten. She was in second grade when she left too.
LAUREN: The same as River, yeah. It’s amazing. It’s like if we could just as a culture look at people, just let them be. They’re going to get it, you just got to leave them alone. It adds all this unnecessary baggage. It’s so detrimental.
PAM: Yes, it is. You mentioned that you learned a lot about homeschooling and unschooling when River was young before he was going to school.
When you finally jumped into it—a year and three months ago—did you still have some fears and uncertainties?
LAUREN: Well, at first when we started we were literally returning to this homebirth and attachment parenting community. So the first feeling was, “Oh my god, we are home. This is so awesome.” And all these people are so weird like us, well, not like us but just sharing similar values. And seeing my old friends and his old friends and he was like: “I knew this kid when he was a baby.” It was really great. So I wasn’t even thinking of the fears then.
When I think about it, the first few months I think my biggest concern was that our unschooling life didn’t match the picture of what unschooling looked like in my mind. I had these unschooling fantasies about what my own personal unschooling path would have looked like if I were unschooled as a child.
I’m one of those people who throws themselves into whatever they are learning. When I was a kid I was into pioneer days, the mid-1800s and Westward Extension, and when I was into that, that was my whole life.
I had a pioneer dress with a bonnet I wore and I had the American Girl Doll and I read all the books. And all the books I read were about the Oregon trail and that time period. And I played the Oregon Trail Video Game and made food from that time period, all that. So I am the type who throws myself into stuff and it becomes my entire life. Then River and I started this unschooling path and I was noticing, “Wow, River doesn’t learn exactly how I learn.”
You’d think that wouldn’t be a big deal but, for whatever reason, I had envisioned something like it. When he was really interested in tornados and lightning, he didn’t want to be thrown into a world of weather. And I could get all the books out from the library about weather and he was like, “I’m not looking at those. I don’t care.” It was a really big deal for me to learn, “Oh wait a second, just because this is how I learn it doesn’t mean that’s how he’s going to learn, and just because I thought it was going to look this way doesn’t mean that’s what it’s going to look like.”
So I think just letting go of expectations was so huge for me to be able to really relish what was actually happening in our unschooling lives. So letting go of those shoulds and just being there and actually witnessing what was happening was what helped me to see “Oh my god, he is learning so much and look at the way he does it. It’s so fascinating. And what he is interested in.” So that was big for me.
So I don’t know if it’s as much fear as it is just letting go of baggage. I think that’s kind of a key piece in my unschooling experience and in our unschooling experience. Me letting go of baggage.
PAM: I think that’s such a great point, Lauren. Because when you mentioned the phrase “unschooling fantasies,” as parents we are learning about unschooling and we are excited enough about it to want to try it with our families. We build such a picture in our head of what it’s going to look like and truly it’s not surprising that it’s based in our own experience and how we would like to learn if we had this possibility. That’s such a great point.
Something to really pay attention to, to shift the focus to seeing how they like to live their days and how they like to learn, and supporting them. Of course, we are going to start from our own perspective, but to be open like you said to dropping those expectations and seeing what actually comes out of it, right?
LAUREN: I know for me, the shifting my focus from the imaginary child that I had envisioned before I had River, to being like, “Oh, this amazing, complex person in front of me who is his own person and actually just him and celebrating him,” versus like whatever I had expected, has been probably one of the biggest aspects of parenting that has been a growing process. Wow, they really pop out themselves and you just are there to witness them and support them as much as you can and love them. And grow by being around them.
PAM: It really is, it really is. I love the way you explain that. And that leads very nicely into our next question.
I’m wondering about what your move to unschooling has looked like, whether it has been pretty smooth, you know, you talked a bit about letting go of your expectations. Have you talked to River specifically about unschooling itself, the processes or principles behind it or have you found as you have been talking about the changes being more internal to you, so most of your focus has been on how you are choosing to observe River and how you are changing your responses to him and letting go of the expectations?
LAUREN: Yeah, definitely. I don’t think I talked to River much about it other than to support him and living everyday life and he knows we homeschool. I’m sure I used the word unschooling and said: “This is the kind of homeschooling we are doing.” Because there were points in the beginning when he was like, “Wait, aren’t we supposed to be doing something? Should I do some maths?” And I asked, “Do you want to?” And I might write out some questions for him if he really wanted me to at that time. And then he would say, “Ok, I know how to do this, that’s fine.” I think he had a couple of concerns in the very beginning but now he is just totally into it.
I think our foundation of unschooling friends has been very helpful, has helped us ease into this. He has just been loving life and exploring things of interest to him and it’s just better than I could have thought. It has been pretty seamless and the majority of the changes have totally been internal for me. And they continue to be. River is naturally really awesome at doing the things he loves and having fun which is where all of our learning is.
You don’t have to work on this stuff. Where 99% of the process is me again just letting go of my own baggage and assumptions and things that help me to better connect with him and better celebrate him and our lives. And I really think having a community of other unschooling parents locally as well as online to reach out to and explore my own stuff with has been really helpful.
And, like you said, I went to the Childhood Redefined Unschooling Summit with you and Anne and it really shifted my perspective so dramatically. It just really helped me to see things in such a more positive way and I only realized afterwards it had such an impact on me that I felt changed and I acted in a different manner. It’s hard for me to put into words but I noticed that I have a lot of power in our home. I could change the energy of our home with my own choices and the viewpoint I’m bringing into every interaction. That was amazing to me.
I really noticed if I shifted into a more positive, loving, peaceful place where I’m celebrating what’s happening, and what River’s celebrating, and what Aaron is celebrating—everything changes. It is mind-blowing that I really impact this family so much. We all do, but I have a lot of power inside of myself.
I think that’s my work as an unschooling parent: to do that work within myself that allows me to see and celebrate River for being him and his own unique self, and then to support him in ways that are best for him on whatever path that he chooses, and just our connection.
PAM: That’s lovely. I’m glad you enjoyed it!
LAUREN: I can’t explain it. The whole idea of “Oh, I paradigm-shifted back when he was two,” and I was like, “Oh, wait a second, there was way more to do…” (both laughing)
PAM: That’s awesome!
Can you tell us a bit about how your definition of learning has changed since discovering unschooling?
LAUREN: Well, it’s been an evolving process since I was in that teacher training program back however many years ago. I have to do the math for it’s a long time ago. I had a pretty unschooly definition of learning when River and I started homeschooling but when we started I still was making lists of the subjects to keep track of what we were covering for my own records and peace of mind. So if we played Uno or a game with a map I checked off “math” or “geography” thinking “Ok, we covered that today.” (laughs)
After a couple of months, I just dropped that stuff because when you are doing it you just start to see, “Oh my god, he is learning so much and so much more than I could ever write down.” And what really amazed me was our conversations and the depth with which we would explore questions and topics and just how much we were both learning together. I feel like I see learning in such a limitless manner now and that there are no have tos and no shoulds. It’s just choices and options. And there is no not-learning. You are always learning, it doesn’t matter: if we follow joy and try to live in a manner where we are most content, that’s going to be really fun learning. No matter what you are learning.
Something I love is that it’s so not just about River learning. It’s us learning as a family. River has really been into BMX biking for the past few months and that stemmed in part because my boyfriend Aaron was really into it. He was rekindling this passion from his childhood, which I think has a lot to do with our unschooling and I really think he was excited thinking about stuff and looking into his own passions because of it. And then we have an unschooling family friend. Our whole family were good friends with them, they are wonderful. They are huge into BMX biking too. So these relationships inspired a passion in River for it and now BMX biking is a way that he connects with my boyfriend Aaron and this other unschooling family and we all go to skate parks together and we watch BMX videos on YouTube to learn new tricks and he and I go on lots of bike rides and it leads to all sorts of conversations and all sorts of different things depending where we go. It’s just amazing. Learning just keeps happening based on whatever we like.
Another thing he and I are really into the musical “Hamilton” which we learned all about this summer from some people who loved it. So we bought the CDs and we started listening to it and falling in love with the music. River loves rap and he loves music. That really led him into wanting to explore past wars because there are these battle songs that are really awesome and that led us to go to a civil war re-enactment as a family. We are all learning about these different topics in our own ways and I just love being able to witness how our paths evolve from a single interest or question that one of us is exploring and then how they connect. So that whole limitless nature of learning. It just feels like it’s all about choices and following our joy.
PAM: That’s it. Those are beautiful stories.
LAUREN: I love that. It’s so fun! What I know now is that until we did it, I couldn’t know how beautiful it would be or how full and rich it could be. I just couldn’t know. Especially with a teaching background you might come into something thinking “Ok, we are going to learn this set list of things!” but with unschooling and with this idea of limitless learning, there are no boundaries. There is so much more to learn. I love that.
PAM: I love how each of your answers is leading into the next question! But before we get there, I love your phrase “limitless learning,” because that was the huge piece for me. When we started it was all about the learning. It was, “Ok, if they are not going to school I’m going to replace the learning somehow,” But that first year of just watching them and seeing it in action … I tried to journal, tried to write things down, and I would go for maybe a week and then there was just too much to write. It expanded into life. You just see the learning in every minute. Ok, let me read the next question. So that people know what we are talking about (laughs).
Did you find a difference between understanding the principles of unschooling intellectually and then living them day to day?
LAUREN: When I read this question I was like, “Yes, Yes, Yes …” I wrote “Yes” five times because this was a big surprise to me. I think I said this already but since I learned about it when he was two, I did my paradigm-shifting. I got this. We are just going to become unschoolers; this is awesome.
But then I realized I still have lots to unload through the process of doing it. I think for me, the biggest piece that I didn’t realize would be such a huge piece, even though I read all about it, was trust. And that trust is really essential to unschooling is, in a lot of ways, born out of the act of unschooling.
So kind of like the chicken and the egg: you can’t have the trust until you trust, but you develop the trust through trusting. I just feel like trusting him in his own path; I had to live that, in order to build that. I didn’t do it before we unschooled. The amount of trust that is needed and that comes out of unschooling has just blown me away and how that connects us and how he trusts me to support him in his learning about anything and everything.
If he comes to me with a question, an interest, or something that he just happens to say, he trusts that I’m going to listen and respect him and support him in learning more about it and finding the resources that he needs, and I trust that he will learn everything he needs to learn by following his passions and joy. I didn’t know how deeply we could trust each other and I didn’t know how connected we could become before we were unschooling. I read about it forever. That’s the way I learn. I love reading everything about a topic and then maybe I will act on it or maybe not. This was mind-blowing, the difference between actually living it versus just reading it. It was amazing.
PAM: I found the same thing. I mean the relationships just blew me away. I had no idea about the depths of trust and connection that you could have with another person. I don’t think I had that kind of connection with anyone.
Maybe that’s why when I ask in the Ten Questions episodes, “What is the best thing that you found when looking back on unschooling? What has been the most surprising or your favourite outcome of it?” Relationships has pretty much always been the answer because it’s just something you can’t get, you don’t understand when you get started until you develop it, right?
LAUREN: And I was shocked by that. Because we are so close. I’m closer to him than anyone. I just can’t believe how much closer—worlds closer—that we became through the process of unschooling. You just can’t know until you do it. It’s mind-blowing, really.
PAM: It’s true!
I was wondering if you could talk a bit about what changes you have seen in River since he left school?
LAUREN: Yes. He just loves his life. He loves homeschooling and unschooling and he will say to me regularly, “Mom, I love my life.” I’ve just seen him become happier and more confident and more flexible and more understanding, just a lot of changes. He will proudly tell anyone that he is homeschooled. Recently we went to a party and another kid asked: “So, did you go on any vacations this summer?” And he responded with, “Well, pretty much every day is a vacation for me.” He really feels like, “My life is so fun.”
One of the most interesting shifts that I have seen is that he has grown so much socially since we started homeschooling. I love it, I think that’s funny that so many people question about socialization. He gets along so much better with other kids now, which has not always been the easiest thing for him. I just feel like he has become more empathetic and understanding and I think that has a lot to do with all the unstructured play he gets to have with other homeschooled friends as well as friends in our apartment complex. He has so much time to just be with kids in an unstructured manner where no one is saying: “time to do this,” or “you guys need to interact in this way,” or even just someone micromanaging their conversations. He is playing in these unstructured settings, with me there to support as needed of course, but I’ve seen so much growth in those ways.
Another big thing I wanted to mention was the reading. He started reading half way through the year while simultaneously avoiding all books because of his negative school experience. When we first started unschooling, if we weren’t out connecting with friends and we were home, he mostly spent his time playing video games or watching YouTube. He just loved it. He really started learning how to read by doing stuff online that he really liked. He started reading probably six months into our unschooling journey and he would read signs in a drive-through, or read comments on YouTube, or read directions to a video game. He would type in words if he was looking for information, read the words on a YouTube lyric video song he liked. He really is into music. He would even have me pause it so he could read the whole thing and I remember him reading something with the word “champagne” in it and I was like, “Holy crap, he just read “champagne”.” (laughs)
And I feel like this experience of him reading on his own without any support of me besides, you know, I’m with him and I’m reading things when he asks me to, or typing in something for him on games, but without having someone sitting down with him and teaching him how to do it. I think this was super empowering for him after his school experience. And after that he started to go back to the library with me and he would read books to his friends at the library or at his cousin’s house and it’s just like he reclaimed it for himself and to me that’s so healing and so wonderful because that was my biggest concern that this bad experience would sit with him for life. I feel like that has been a major change over the past year. I don’t care that he can read or not. He is nine and he can take forever, I don’t care. But what I care about is that he owns it. And I really think he knows that: “Wow I did this on my own.” And I love that.
PAM: I think that’s a great point: owning the experience. Giving it back to them, to whatever timetable they end up having. But for it to be back in their court so that they have choices and control over it. That’s awesome!
What has been the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far?
LAUREN: This question I thought was so hard because I feel like we haven’t had a lot of hardships with unschooling. Sometimes life can feel hard, but that’s not because of unschooling. We went from a lifestyle where River was in school for six hours and I was working out of the home for nine hours and then we come back home together at the end of the day and it was like we only had the worst of ourselves to give to each other. We were both grumpy and exhausted.
So going from that to a lifestyle where he is home so much more and I am home so much more and we are together so much more and there is no pressure to do stuff he doesn’t want to do and I’m working at a job that I love and we are both really fulfilled and happy. I feel like it’s only made everything better and easier and more wonderful. I think sometimes parenting can feel really hard, and living as a member of a family can feel hard, but unschooling actually makes all of it easier and better. So I didn’t have a good answer.
PAM: No, that’s a great answer! It’s great to hear your perspective.
LAUREN: It hasn’t been hard. It’s been awesome!
PAM: It’s been awesome! (both laugh)
We might have touched on this, but was has surprised you most about your journey so far?
LAUREN: For me especially, I come from that teaching background, and the biggest surprise for me about unschooling has been that unschooling is not really about learning. It’s not about education, and I mean that in a respectful way. I don’t mean to belittle the learning that River is doing and that I’m doing with our lives—we are learning so much more than I ever imagined we would learn—but it feels totally secondary: like a benefit that occurs along the way. To me unschooling is about living and about joy and about our relationships like you said before and that has been the biggest surprise for me.
When I was coming into it, I thought, “Oh this is how we are going to learn the things he needs to learn, just like he would have at school.” But instead, it’s “No, this is just our life and this is how we enjoy living.”
I was in a Facebook conversation with Anne Ohman and she wrote in a comment: “The Learning is a by-product of the Living.” And I was like “Yes, that’s exactly it!”
Just by living these wonderful, exciting lives—and you know we have our own issues and struggles at times, but living through all of life—we are learning so much. But that’s just a piece of it. It’s so beautiful and it’s so wonderful and it’s so rich and it’s so much about just us celebrating being together and our lives together and what we love. It’s about so much more than learning. That was a surprise to me.
PAM: Yeah, first we think of learning as the lowest common denominator. That’s why we go to school. For the learning, it’s for the learning. Yet once we start living it and seeing it in the wild, maybe you see there is actually more. There are roots to learning. There is a foundation of living and relationships and connecting and trust and everything that lies in the foundation beneath the learning. So instead of focusing on the learning, when we focus on creating that strong foundation, the learning is the by-product that just kind of bubbles up out of it.
LAUREN: It is so beautiful and I would never diminish the importance of that learning but it’s, like you said, the relationships. I’m just in awe of how close we are. It’s something I take for granted now, almost, how close we are. But it’s the by-product of unschooling and living this life. It’s so awesome! It’s so much more awesomer than I thought, and I already thought it would be awesome. (both laugh)
PAM: It’s awesomER!
LAUREN: It’s awesomer than I thought it would be, which is so great!
PAM: Oh, that’s awesome. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, Lauren. That was so much fun!
LAUREN: I know! Thank you so much, Pam. Like I said I’m a throw-myself-in type of person and unschooling has been one of my big, huge passions, so it’s so fun to talk about it and to think about it and to explore it, because I won’t do that with River because it’s not really his big passion, so it’s so nice to talk to other people who are into it.
PAM: I know, that’s exactly it. You mentioned that earlier too. I didn’t use the word unschooling with my kids for a few years. I think when we went to the first conference it had unschooling in the name. Yeah, we are just not going to school, we are homeschooling, that’s that. They figured it out. They figure out life and living and just pursue it and we are the ones who do all the work, seeing how learning can really happen in everyday living.
Before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online?
LAUREN: Probably on Facebook, my name is Lauren Seaver. I love Facebook and I’m always putting fun stuff up there what we are doing.
PAM: Yeah, and they can send you a quick message saying they heard you on the podcast if they’d like to connect, right?
LAUREN: Yeah, absolutely.
PAM: Thank you so much again, and have a great day!
LAUREN: Oh, thank you so much, Pam. You have a wonderful day!
EU381: Foundations: Priorities
Feb 13, 2025
For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the first Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Priorities.
We are handed a set of priorities by society and our culture, but when we really consider ourselves and our personal values, we can see how individual our priorities can be! When we choose priorities that feel good to us, it becomes easier to make day-to-day choices that align with what is important to us.
We talk about how our relationships fit into our priorities (and—spoiler alert—they’re at the top of our lists!) and how prioritizing connection has become a focus for both of us as we tuned out the external noise and tuned into how we want to show up in the world.
We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
EPISODE QUESTIONS
How can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts? Your inner voice?
What priorities make sense to you? Why?
Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities?
Are your day to day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make?
Do any of your priorities depend on other people’s actions and choices? If so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control?
TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so excited you found us and look forward to exploring our relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. So, on today’s episode, we’re going to talk about priorities. And I love this as a starting place for the podcast, because it’s such an interesting topic to examine.
Priorities are so individual, and yet, so often, we’re handed a set of priorities from society. We’re handed definitions of success and where and how we should be spending our time.
And there are these heavy guardrails of judgment that we have to move through if we choose to deviate from these expected paths.
So, it can be really interesting, I’ve found, to dig into those outside voices, that judgment. What’s behind it? What purpose does it serve? And is it helping me get in touch with who I am and who I want to be in the world?
I think about the studies that they do when people are on their deathbed and they’re asked, is there anything that you would change? And consistently, they answer that they wished they had prioritized their relationships over achievements or the next promotion.
For me personally, I came to that realization for myself after our first child had a life-threatening after birth experience. Almost losing her really woke me up to the path I was on and to look at how I wanted to spend my time. And the answer for me was doing things I love with the people that I love. And that’s how I want to spend this time that I’m given. And understanding that has just been a huge guide for me ever since.
So, I’m curious, Pam, what’s it been like for you?
PAM: Well, it was having children that sparked my journey, as well. I found that those first few years were just filled with questions like who I wanted to be as a person and parent. And, having internalized so many of society’s goals and stories growing up, it took me a while, quite a while, to realize just how much choice I actually had.
I didn’t need to just dutifully take on the path and the priorities that were handed to me. I could figure out what I value and make those things a priority in my. And then, as I continued to ask more questions, I came to realize what would always be in my life, and it was my relationships. Jobs, hobbies, areas of interest, while definitely being integral parts of who I am, those would come and go over the years. They had been coming and going over the years. But my relationships with my family would always be in my life. They were and are a fundamental part of just my being in the world.
And so, since that aha moment, I have chosen to prioritize my relationships. And rather surprisingly, because you think I’m focusing on something, so I’m closing things down to this one thing, but I found that my life has been so much richer for it.
ANNA: Oh, my gosh. So much richer. I feel like when we have that foundation of strong, connected relationships, it’s just this really wonderful place from which we can explore the world and learn about ourselves. Because I think that might have been the most surprising piece for me, that as I focused on being in relationship with others, I learned so much about myself. It’s not always easy, but I’m grateful for it.
And so, as I’m thinking about this, we both got to this place where we didn’t want to be taking these priorities that were being handed to us. The next bit for me was realizing that others don’t want me to define their priorities either.
So, when we think about our partners or kids, it was really helpful to think, am I judging how they spend their time, the choices that they’re making? Because that judgment comes between us. We don’t learn why they’re making the choices they’re making. We miss the opportunity to really connect with them and who they are. It’s got this cloud of expectation and you’ll have some people that will buck against that expectation in really dramatic fashion. And then you’ll have others that really try to meet it, even if it’s not in alignment for them. But, either way, the connection is harmed and can be lost together.
So, I try not to be the outside voice that someone needs to shut out, but instead be someone who celebrates and just unconditionally supports the people in my life.
PAM: Absolutely. That was definitely yet another layer to peel back for me, realizing how valuable it was for me to contemplate and choose my priorities, but that didn’t mean my priorities were the best priorities for anyone else. It makes so much sense to me why my priorities are these and in this order, but no, everyone is a different person. And I remember the huge shift in my relationship with my spouse when I stopped trying to convince him that my priorities should be his priorities as well, which had looked like me trying to tell him what to do and when. And I was definitely nice about it. I wasn’t trying to bully him or anything, but as I thought about it, I was trying to convince him that I was right and vice versa. That’s where our conversations went. They were often about convincing each other that our priorities and choices were more right than the other person’s. There was definitely a winner and a loser.
But once I began to share my priorities without trying to convince him to adopt them, oh, my gosh. There was space for him to start sharing his without me judging them. Each of us was more able to be ourselves. We could just share and see how things landed. And then, that in turn helped us learn more about each other as we’d chat about the things that are important to us and why. And recognizing that his priorities are as important to him as mine are to me.
ANNA: It’s so true. I don’t know. We get stuck in our head, right? We get stuck in our head thinking everybody’s seeing things the same way. And so, yeah, I just love that next layer.
And I think then, I want to talk about, too, as we hone in on these priorities, it’s such a helpful lens to look at the day to day moments. So, in each moment, we have this opportunity to make choices. And understanding my priorities and then keeping them front of mind as I made choices throughout the day was critical to me, actually honoring them as priorities, versus just giving lip service to, “My relationships are important,” or whatever the thing might be.
So, what that would look like for me, it might be stopping what I’m doing to hear my child excitedly tell me about their game. It’s taking a walk after dinner with David to reconnect, because we’ve had some time apart that day. Because, truthfully, I could curl up with a book and get some work done at the computer, but I do want to tend to that relationship, that priority first. And what I found is that that connection serves us both as we move through the evening and through the subsequent days.
And another really big one for me, this was so huge, was learning to say no to outside requests that took me away from the people that I loved. And here’s the thing. Sometimes there are easy yeses and they feed me and they feel great and they feel great to those around me. But other times, what I noticed is that I was saying yes without really thinking about how it would impact me, my energy, what I would have left to give my family, the time it might take away from spending time with the important people in my life, all of those things.
I’m just seeing the person in front of me with the ask and saying, “Okay, I’ll help,” without really checking in. And using that lens really helped me realize that the time with them was what I wanted to prioritize, and so, I really needed to align my actions with that. So, that becomes the work, aligning our actions with what matters most to us.
PAM: Exactly. Yet another huge layer is, okay, I’ve got these priorities. It’s not sticking them on a post-it note and sticking them somewhere where I’ll see them. It’s, how do these weave into my days, my actual days? What do they look like in action?
And I wanted to mention, it is not about trying to guilt ourselves into making choices that align with our priorities. If we find ourselves doing that regularly, I think that might be a great clue just to revisit our priorities. Apparently, the things that I want to do in my day don’t align with what I thought my priorities were.
ANNA: That’s so interesting.
PAM: So, just revisit them. What you really choose to do in the moment, you want to do in the moment, those outer voices, right? Am I doing it, because I think I should? Or is this something that feels good, that I want to choose, that I choose to do, that I want to do? And you want the things that you choose to do to align with your priorities, as well. They weave together so much.
That said, though, it doesn’t mean that the choices are always easy. Like you were talking about, they aren’t often between a good thing and a bad thing, making the choice easy like, “Oh yeah, between this and this? No, no. This is definitely it.” Often, it’s between two or three lovely things, but that’s where knowing our priorities can be so helpful.
So, using your example, which I love, maybe after dinner I could take a walk with Rocco to reconnect, or I could clean up the kitchen a bit, maybe because it feels nice to me to walk into a tidy kitchen, or I could relax and read a bit. When I think about those choices, the first thing I might realize is that, those aren’t actually either/or things, right? I could do them all over the course of the evening. And taking a moment to consider my priorities helps me put them in an order that aligns with them.
So, maybe I have also learned that once I sit down to relax and read or watch a show, I often feel too tired for a walk after. So, there are a couple of solid reasons to tend to the relationship first for me. So, maybe our walk turns into us tidying the kitchen together as we finish up our conversation. And then we can each go to our own thing feeling refreshed and connected.
There are so many ways that things can unfold. And keeping our priorities in mind helps us choose the path that feels more fulfilling to us.
ANNA: Oh, my gosh, yes. And I think that’s such a great point about, if you’re feeling a rub during your day about, I want to do this, but it’s not aligning with these priorities I’ve set out, if you’re seeing that as a to-do list or a checklist and it’s not feeling good, woo, stop! Just stop right there. And revisit and go, “Wait a minute, are my priorities really lining up with who I want to be right now in this moment?”
And the thing is, they can change. Our priorities can change and they will as we go through different seasons of our lives, as we, grow and change and learn more things about ourselves. So, just looking for those little rub spots, I think, is important.
PAM: Speaking of those rubs, sometimes there are emergencies. There are urgent things in life that come up and I may absolutely choose to do those things. And I may choose to step far out of my comfort zone and do some things, but it’s the act of recognizing, oh yeah, this needs my attention immediately, very, very soon. I am going to do that. Priorities, again, it’s not a rule.
ANNA: No. Or a checklist.
PAM: Choice is right there. But priorities, there’s something that can help us make choices that, again, they feel fulfilling. They feel right. They feel good to us. They help us when we come to a point where there are various possibilities for the next moment.
So, I just think they are so valuable for us to recognize, because sometimes, too, our priorities may look quite mundane. Like relationships. “I see these people every day! Of course I’m in relationship with them. They live down the hall, they sleep down the hall.” So, it can feel like, why is it even worth making that a priority? But that’s the fun part. That’s why it’s so valuable to think about it, to think about the kind of person that I want to be, the kind of parent I want to be, the kind of partner I want to be. And when we’re thinking about it, we’ve got it top of mind as we go through our day. As things come up, as things unfold in front of us, we can make the choices that feel better for us, so that at the end of the day, it often feels just more fulfilling really.
ANNA: Right. And grounded, for me, because again, I think it’s interesting. I think they inform each other. The choice informs the priority. The priorities inform the choice. And so, just that awareness, like you said, top of mind, bringing that awareness, that can really help us. It’s a grounded feeling of like, I’m living the life that I want to live. I am being the person that I want to be and those are the things that I like to check in with myself about periodically. So, yeah, I love that.
Okay, so, we are going to leave you with some questions to ponder this week.
The first one is, how can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts, your inner voice? And so, this will be a big one, just thinking about, where are those voices coming from? What does it sound like for you? What does your voice sound like in contrast? So, just give a little time to sit with that and how you can shut those noises out.
The next one is, what priorities make sense to you and why? Because, like we said, it’s going to be different. There’s going to be seasons. There’s going to be things that shift around based on where you are in your life and what’s happening.
But, “Do they make sense to you?” is going give you a big clue as to, “Are they coming from outside voices versus, is it something that’s really bubbling up from inside of you? Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities? And I think it’s just, again, it’s the mundane in some ways, like Pam was saying. And so, maybe sometimes relationships fall off as we’re thinking, “Oh, we’ve got this career thing we want to do,” or whatever, which are all wonderful things. There’s no good or bad here about what you’re pursuing or doing, but it’s just that check in. Where are they falling and is that where I want them? So, I think that’s just important to look at.
Next one is, are your day-to-day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make? And that’s what we’re talking about, is you’re looking at the different choices you’re making throughout the day. Does it line up with your priorities? And again, keep in mind that it could be that the priorities need to change, or maybe you want to check in about your priorities as you’re making your choices. So, those, again, work together.
Do any of your priorities depend on other people’s actions and choices? And, if so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control? And this goes back to what we were saying about nobody else wanting us to put our priorities on them. It’s that same kind of thing, because it’s like, if we are expecting someone else to move along with our priorities, it’s pretty much a recipe for upset or disconnection, because they’re going to have their own path there. So, really tuning into, are my priorities in alignment with me and things that I can control?
And, for me, what that looks like a lot of times is, am I being the person I want to be? So, my priority may be about a relationship that does involve somebody else, but what I control is how I show up for the relationship.
PAM: Exactly. Yeah. We don’t have control of how other people show up, but we can also be a wonderful model, as in, this is how we choose.
ANNA: Absolutely. So, check out the show notes for things we’ve mentioned in the episode, the episode transcript, and today’s questions. We’d love to hear what you discover. You can share your thoughts on a comment on the website or our episode post on Instagram @LivingJoyfullyPodcast. You’ll find that link in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being here with us, and we’ll see you next time.
EU380: Revitalizing Our Nest
Jan 30, 2025
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about revitalizing our nests. Our homes are such an important part of our unschooling lives. We can get open and curious and creatively find ways to make the spaces in our home fit the individual people in our family. After all, people are different! We share examples […]
EU379: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Personal Hygiene
Jan 16, 2025
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about personal hygiene. Questions and concerns about hygiene come up regularly in parenting circles and, in unschooling communities, this topic can sometimes trigger fear. We wanted to dive into personal hygiene to address some of the most common areas that […]
EU378: Bringing a Playful Energy to Our Days
Jan 02, 2025
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore bringing a playful energy to our days. Shifting to a playful energy can be helpful when we’re feeling stuck, with spinning thoughts, worrying about the future, or focused on external expectations. We can cultivate a lightness and curiosity that helps us get creative and come up with […]
EU377: Consent and Autonomy
Dec 19, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into consent and autonomy. Moving towards respecting our children’s autonomy and consent is typically an important part of the unschooling journey. In our conversation, we talk about independence vs autonomy, looking for underlying needs, questioning societal messages, and moving from control to connection with our children. We […]
EU376: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Weaving In Our Needs
Dec 05, 2024
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about weaving in our needs. When we first come to unschooling, it’s common to start questioning the traditional roles of parent and child. Maybe we go from seeing adult needs as the priority and then we swing on the pendulum […]
EU375: Supporting Our Children’s Inner Voices
Nov 21, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into supporting our children’s inner voices. External messages and cultural roles can disconnect us from our internal wisdom and knowing. Our unschooling lives give us an opportunity to provide time and space for our children to really tune into their inner voices, and showing them that we […]
EU374: Beyond the Golden Rule
Nov 07, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the popular maxim known as the Golden Rule, which states, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Once we realize how different people are, however, we can see how treating others how we would like to be treated may fall short in our […]
EU373: Navigating Disagreements with Our Partner
Oct 24, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating disagreements with our partner. No matter how harmonious your relationship, disagreements will inevitably come up between two people. We share some tools that can help us navigate disagreements and give a few examples from our own lives where these have come into play. We hope […]
EU372: Building Trust with Our Kids
Oct 10, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about building trust with our children. We regularly mention trust on the podcast, as we’ve found that trust is the foundation of the strong relationships that help unschooling thrive. We had a lot of fun talking about ways to build trust in and with our children. We […]
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about transitional ages and seasons. While there is definitely not one path through childhood, there are common transitional ages where major changes typically occur. In this episode, we talk about some shifts that happen from the toddler to child years, […]
EU370: There’s Plenty of Time
Sep 12, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about one of Anna’s favorite sayings, “There’s plenty of time.” This mindset shift is so helpful in many different circumstances, making it a very useful tool! We talk about using it in busy moments, when thinking about learning and child development, and even in more urgent situations. […]
EU369: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: People Are Different
Aug 29, 2024
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about how people are different. “People are different” has become a common refrain on the Exploring Unschooling Podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network and for good reason! Once we sink into the reality that people are truly so different—their […]
EU368: Curiosity-Led Learning
Aug 15, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about curiosity-led learning. We thought this would be a fun topic to dive into during this back-to-school season! Focusing on curiosity—our own and our kids’—can be so grounding. In this episode, we explore the definition of learning, how school-based learning looks different than learning through unschooling, and […]
Teachers Turned Unschoolers (EU282 Encore)
Aug 01, 2024
Let’s dive into a question I get pretty regularly, and that’s whether I have podcast episodes with unschooling parents that used to be teachers. It’s fun to ponder the why behind the question. Does it seem like a strange leap to make? To me, choosing teaching indicates an interest in children and in learning, so […]
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about the fears and doubts that come up at the start of the unschooling journey, the idea of wanting to measure success, and what to do when a child is interested in a topic that seems too grown up for them. And as I mention […]
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating sibling and friend relationships, the idea of self-regulation when it comes to technology, and the journey of finding community and connection for ourselves and our children. And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving […]
Exploring Unschooling Q&A (EU322 Encore)
Jun 20, 2024
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about cocooning and connecting with young teens, the mainstream concept of productivity and how we get curious about external messages of judgment, and the idea of an “ideal unschooler.” And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on […]
Exploring Unschooling Q&A (EU314 Encore)
Jun 06, 2024
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We explore technology and “screen time,” deschooling, connection, and validation. And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any given situation that will work for […]
EU367: The Abundance Mindset
May 23, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the abundance mindset. We often find ourselves thinking about abundance versus scarcity in conversations on the podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network. In this episode, we dive into the many ways that shifting to abundance has helped us and our families with creative problem solving. We […]
EU366: Talking Consent with Sara Davidson
May 09, 2024
Pam and Anna are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Sara Davidson to talk about what she’s been learning about consent. Sara was previously on the podcast in episode 312. It was great to hear her family updates and to dive deep into the topic of consent. We talked about four different types of consent, […]
EU365: The Independence Agenda
Apr 25, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into a very interesting lens on parenting—the independence agenda. It’s fascinating to see how this seemingly reasonable goal of fostering our children’s independence can get in the way of not only our relationship with them, but their developing self-awareness and inner voice. We talk about how different […]
EU364: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Including Kids in Decisions
Apr 11, 2024
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about including kids in decisions. There are many reasons why parents may rush through big decisions without giving children a chance to weigh in, but we’ve found that including kids in decisions provides us with useful questions and information, helps […]
EU363: Deschooling
Mar 28, 2024
Deschooling is a bit of a buzzword in homeschooling and alternative education spaces at the moment. So, let’s dive in! Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about the definition of the word, what that transition to unschooling can look like for parents and adults, the importance of letting go of expectations, some of the paradigm shifts […]
EU362: On the Journey with Kendel Ricker
Mar 14, 2024
We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a delightful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Kendel Ricker. Kendel is an unschooling mom of two kids, 11 and 9, and she shared some of her journey with us. Kendel’s own education included homeschooling, private school, and public school, as well as university and […]
EU361: Siblings
Feb 29, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the sibling dynamic and some of the questions that come up when unschooling families navigate sibling relationships. We talk about letting go of expectations, watching out for casting our children in roles, understanding our own triggers, and how “fair” doesn’t mean “equal.” We hope you find our […]
EU360: What’s So Magical About Age 18?
Feb 15, 2024
What’s so magical about age 18? Pam, Anna, Erika, and our guest Erin dig into the transition from childhood to adulthood and what it means for our unschooled kids. It’s common for parents to bump up against some cultural beliefs about this phase of life and inadvertently put expectations on young adults. Strangers, friends, and […]
EU359: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Quitting vs Sticking It Out
Feb 01, 2024
In this episode, we are starting a new series called Unschooling Stumbling Blocks, where we talk about common challenges on the unschooling journey. For this first stumbling block, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about “quitting” vs “sticking it out.” This idea comes up in parenting regardless of whether you’re unschooling or not. Do we need […]
EU358: On the Journey with Jahaira Luzzi
Jan 18, 2024
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Jahaira Luzzi. Jahaira is an unschooling mom of two, ages 6 and 8, and a former early childhood educator. We talk about Jahaira’s path to unschooling, including her exploration of various types of elementary schools […]
EU357: Building Community
Jan 04, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive deep into building community. As we regularly mention, people are different, and each member of your family will likely have different needs for community, friendship, and social time. We talk about in-person versus online connections, the value of interest-based communities, some of the many different ways we’ve […]
Harbor Highlights, Issue #1
Dec 28, 2023
Pam shares the first edition of Harbor Highlights, the new monthly audio dispatch she’s creating for her Patreon supporters. In it, she’ll be sharing the behind-the-scenes details of her next grand adventure! Listen in to learn more. And click here to join her on Patreon! Note that it’s only her Patreon page name that has […]
EU356: Unschooling “Rules”: About Food
Dec 07, 2023
We’re back with another episode in our Unschooling “Rules” series. And we use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something new, but we […]
Podcast Update, Nov 2023
Nov 27, 2023
Quick Links Check out the Black Friday-inspired bundle specials on the newly refreshed Living Joyfully Shop! Transcript Hello, everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I’m popping in to share a couple of bits of news with you. First is the Black Friday-inspired sale happening in the Living Joyfully Shop right now! It runs […]
EU355: Unschooling “Rules”: Freedom Leads to Self-Regulation
Nov 16, 2023
We’re back with another episode in our Unschooling “Rules” series. And we use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something new, but we […]
EU354: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschoolers Should Never Divorce
Oct 05, 2023
On this episode of the podcast, we’re sharing another entry in our Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
Redefining Success and Parent-Child Relationships
Sep 21, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a conversation I had recently for the Self Directed Podcast with Jesper and Cecilie Conrad. It was such an invigorating conversation that I asked if we could share it here as well and they graciously agreed. We dive into the art of fostering strong, respectful, and trusting parent-child […]
EU353: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschooling is Child-Led
Sep 07, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU138 Flashback: The Sparkle of Unschooling
Aug 24, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a compilation of experienced unschooling parents answering the question, “Looking back, what has been the most valuable outcome from choosing unschooling?” Another apt title might be Remembering Our Why, which is why we think it’s especially powerful to listen to during this back-to-school season. When we are able to […]
EU352: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschoolers Are Always Happy
Aug 03, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU351: Bringing It Home: Navigating Technology
Jul 06, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers have unlimited screen time, and exploring what it can look like to navigate technology with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about seeing through […]
EU350: On the Journey with Sarah McMackin
Jun 08, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Sarah McMackin. Sarah is an unschooling mom to Eamon, who just turned seven. She also runs a restaurant in Austin, TX with her husband, Ray. We talk about Sarah’s experience unschooling an only child, […]
EU349: Unschooling “Rules”: Unlimited Screen Time
May 25, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU348: Q&A Deep Dive
May 11, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Michelle in Texas. She writes, I listened to the episode with Xander regarding gaming, and it really helped change my perspective, especially during this unschooling phase. The question that keeps coming for us is definitely fear-based, but for good […]
EU347: Bringing It Home: Staying Up Late
Apr 27, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers don’t have bedtimes, and exploring what it can look like to navigate staying up late with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about seeing […]
EU346: On the Journey with Cassie Emmott
Apr 13, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Cassie Emmott. Cassie is an unschooling mom with four children with diverse needs. She shares her path to unschooling and some insightful reflections about parenting and deschooling. We talk about navigating challenging seasons and […]
EU345: Unschooling “Rules”: No Bedtimes
Mar 30, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU344: Q&A Deep Dive
Mar 16, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Julie in Ontario. She writes, How would you encourage parents to best unschool themselves? I’d really like to be a better example of someone who follows their passions. My husband would love to do a job more suited to […]
EU343: Bringing It Home: Navigating Lessons
Mar 02, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers don’t use curriculum, and exploring what it can look like to navigate lessons and adult-led activities with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about […]
EU342: Helping Kids Find Their Passion
Feb 16, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a talk that Pam gave at the 2022 Canadian Online Homeschool Conference, Helping Kids Find Their Passion. Following our children’s interests and passions is one of the joys of unschooling. And truly, humans are born curious. As parents, we can give our children the gift of encouraging that […]
EU341: Unschooling “Rules”: Don’t Use Curriculum
Feb 02, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing our second episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU340: On the Journey with Nora McDonald
Jan 19, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Nora McDonald. Nora is an unschooling mom of two living in Costa Rica. She shares her journey to unschooling as well as two major a-ha moments she has had in the last year. We […]
EU339: Q&A Deep Dive
Jan 05, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Jessie in Colorado. She wants to explore a quote from Free to Learn that took her off guard, which is: One proviso, though. Unschooling won’t work well if you actively avoid having your family interact with the world, with […]
EU338: A Conversation with Lore Blancke
Dec 08, 2022
This week, we’re sharing a conversation Anna Brown and I had recently with Lore Blancke on her podcast, Intimate Breath. Lore came across unschooling and the Exploring Unschooling podcast and was intrigued by the similarities she found with her work as she listened. And while she’s not a parent herself, her enthusiasm was apparent when […]
EU337: Bringing It Home: Yes Energy
Nov 24, 2022
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing our first Bringing It Home episode. In this series, we’re going to dive even deeper into the topics that we explore in the Unschooling “Rules” series, with an eye to showing how these concepts come up in our real lives and the many possibilities for how to approach […]
EU336: On the Journey with Josh Ellis
Nov 10, 2022
This week, we are excited to share our first episode in our new On the Journey series! Anna, Erika, and I are excited to bring guests on the podcast to share their experiences. We’ll be talking about paradigm shifts, a-ha moments, challenges they’ve faced, and realizations they’ve made on their unschooling journey. In this episode, […]
EU335: Unschooling “Rules”: Always Say Yes
Oct 27, 2022
This week, I’m excited to share our first episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something […]
EU334: Q&A Deep Dive
Oct 13, 2022
In the intro, I share my new vision for the podcast: helping people figure out how to apply bigger picture unschooling ideas in their everyday lives. I want to help listeners explore how these big unschooling ideas work on a more practical level. In real life, with the real people that make up our family. […]
EU213 Flashback: Unschooling and Math with Marcella O’Brien
Oct 06, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a popular episode from early 2020 with unschooling mom Marcella O’Brien. Marcella’s grown sons, Jack and Sean, have also joined me in Growing Up Unschooling episode 181. Marcella’s experience as a public school teacher and math tutor gives her a unique perspective, which led to an interesting conversation about math in […]
EU239 Flashback: Unschooling Dads with Roop Bhadury
Sep 29, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a fun conversation I had with unschooling dad Roop Bhadury. I connected with Roop through his wife Susan, who is a member of the Living Joyfully Network. She has also joined me on the podcast in episode 220. Roop and Susan live with their now three young children in Australia. It […]
EU119 Flashback: Gaming and Growing Up Unschooling with Xander MacSwan
Sep 22, 2022
I get so many questions about “screen time” and video games and how they fit into an unschooling life, so I thought it might be helpful and fun to reshare a conversation I had with Xander MacSwan in 2018. Xander left school in the 5th grade when his parents—both professors in the University of Maryland’s […]
EU111 Flashback: Ten Questions with Jan Fortune
Sep 15, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a conversation I had with Jan Fortune back in 2018. Jan home educated her four children in the UK and wrote many articles and five books on unschooling and parenting. Her book Winning Parent, Winning Child, focuses on living with children in ways that respect their autonomy. In our conversation, Jan shares […]
EU207 Flashback: Advice from Grown Unschoolers
Sep 08, 2022
It’s compilation episode time again! This week, I’m sharing one of our listener favorites from 2019, a collection of conversations with grown unschoolers in which they offer their thoughts for newer unschooling parents. I’ve woven together answers from eleven episodes featuring twelve grown unschoolers. I think you’ll find their answers helpful and enlightening wherever you […]
This week, we’re revisiting a popular compilation episode from last year. Many people have asked me whether any former or current teachers have been interviewed on the podcast. And the answer to that question is a big YES! We have had more than 20 podcast episodes featuring guests who were or are teachers or university […]
EU333: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Aug 25, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about the fears and doubts that come up at the start of the unschooling journey, the idea of wanting to measure success, and what to do when a child is interested in a topic that seems too grown […]
EU332: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 3
Aug 18, 2022
This week, I’m sharing the second part of my recent conversation with Jae Williams (you can listen to the first half here). Jae is a former teacher and new unschooling dad of two young children. We first spoke about a year ago, right at the start of his deschooling journey. It was great to catch […]
EU331: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 2
Aug 11, 2022
Jae Williams is a former teacher and new unschooling dad of two young children. I first spoke to Jae when he was about two months into his unschooling journey, in episode 290. It’s been a year now and we had so much to catch up on! Jae and I talked about the inner work of […]
EU330 Bonus Episode: A Peek Inside the Living Joyfully Network
Aug 08, 2022
I’ve mentioned the Living Joyfully Network online community here and there on the podcast over the last couple of years, sometimes sharing the theme we’re exploring that month or testimonials from members. But I feel like that doesn’t actually say much about what we get up to in this rich and vibrant community. So, for […]
EU023 Flashback: Learning to Read in Their Own Time with Anne Ohman
Aug 04, 2022
Anne Ohman is a long-time unschooling mom of two grown children. Back in 2016, Anne and I had a lovely conversation about reading that I have referenced countless times over the years. When we spoke, she was working as a library director, giving her powerful insights and amazing stories to share about children learning to […]
EU154 Flashback: Unschooling Dads and Documentaries with Jeremy Stuart
Jul 28, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few years ago with unschooling dad and filmmaker Jeremy Stuart. Jeremy directed and co-produced the documentary film, Class Dismissed, which was released in 2015. Since then, it has been screened in more than 60 countries and translated into five languages. His second documentary, Self-Taught, which explores the […]
EU038 Flashback: Time to Think
Jul 21, 2022
This week, I want to share one of my conference talks, Time to Think. So many of the questions and concerns we hear from unschooling parents boil down to the fears that bubble up when we project our current situation into the future. So, it’s not surprising that the value of bringing ourselves back into […]
EU090 Flashback: Growing Up Unschooling with Phoebe Wahl
Jul 14, 2022
This week on the podcast, I’m sharing a conversation I had with grown unschooler Phoebe Wahl a few years ago. Phoebe is an artist whose beautiful work focuses on the themes of comfort, nostalgia, and intimacy. After first grade, Phoebe left school and dove into unschooling. She graduated from Rhode Island School of Design in […]
EU329: Unschooling Stories with Jennifer McGrail
Jul 07, 2022
Jennifer McGrail, long-time unschooling mom of four, joins me on the podcast this week. I last spoke with Jennifer on the podcast in episode 18 and her kids have grown a lot since then! Jennifer shares a family update and we dive deep into how parenting and unschooling change as teenagers transition into young adults. […]
EU007 Flashback: Diving into Parenting with Anna Brown
Jun 30, 2022
This week, we’re going alllll the way back to episode 7 to revisit a wonderful conversation I had with Anna Brown about parenting. I had been inspired by one of Anna’s conference talks and was so excited to dive deeper into these concepts with her. We talked about uncovering underlying needs during conflict, validation and […]
EU027 Flashback: Ten Questions with Teresa Graham Brett
Jun 23, 2022
This week on the podcast, we’re revisiting a conversation I had with Teresa Graham Brett back in 2016. Teresa is currently the associate dean of diversity and inclusion at the University of Arizona’s College of Veterinary Medicine. She’s an unschooling mom of two and author of the book Parenting for Social Change. Teresa’s background as a […]
EU042 Flashback: Curious and Engaged
Jun 16, 2022
This week, I’m re-sharing one of my conference talks, Curious and Engaged, with you! Here’s the description: Our conventional society honours learning deeply, yet its definition has steadily narrowed over the years to checking off curriculum expectations and awarding graduation certificates. Does this restrictive view do learning justice? What if real learning is bigger than that? […]
EU116 Flashback: Growing Up Unschooling with Summer Jean
Jun 09, 2022
Back in 2018, I spoke to Summer Jean about her experience growing up unschooling. We talked about how her mom came to unschooling, how they dealt with disapproval from extended family members, how her interest in glass art came about, and some of the common questions she gets when people learn she didn’t go to […]
EU328: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Jun 02, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating sibling and friend relationships, the idea of self-regulation when it comes to technology, and the journey of finding community and connection for ourselves and our children. As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone […]
EU084 Flashback: Enjoy Parenting with Scott Noelle
May 26, 2022
This week on the podcast, I’m sharing a conversation I had with Scott Noelle, unschooling dad of two, back in 2017. Scott is an author and a life coach dedicated to supporting parents who want to move away from control-based parenting methods. He founded The Daily Groove, an email newsletter and website where he shared […]
EU125 Flashback: Challenges on the Unschooling Journey
May 19, 2022
This week, we are revisiting the first compilation episode I ever created for the podcast! I gathered clips from fourteen different episodes where I asked some version of this question: “What has been one of the more challenging aspects for you on your unschooling journey?” It is so interesting to hear a wide variety of different […]
EU238 Flashback: Deschooling with Jessica Kane
May 12, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a lovely conversation I had with Jessica Kane in 2020. Jessica and her husband live in Ireland and have three children. Her oldest attended school through high school, her middle son left school in grade 4, and her youngest son has never been to school. This gives her such a unique […]
EU037 Flashback: Ten Questions with Carol Black
May 05, 2022
In 2016, I asked Carol Black ten questions about her unschooling journey. Her two daughters were then 22 and 26. We talked about her documentary, Schooling the World, as well as her popular essay, A Thousand Rivers. Carol approaches unschooling and parenting from a cultural lens, through which she’s made many valuable connections and insights. […]
EU327: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Apr 28, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating a dyslexia/dysgraphia diagnosis, sharing unschooling information and parenting ideas with grandparent caregivers, and the mental overwhelm that can occur at the beginning of the deschooling journey. As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone […]
EU326: Walking Together: Seeing the World through Your Child’s Eyes
Apr 21, 2022
This week on the podcast I share a talk I wrote in 2015, Walking Together: Seeing the World through Your Child’s Eyes. In this talk, I dive into some of things I’ve learned on my unschooling journey about the value of walking together through our days with our children. I touch on: ways to shift and […]
EU325: Unschooling through Menopause with Sara Yasner
Apr 14, 2022
Sara Yasner joins me on the podcast this week. Sara is an unschooling mom of three and we talk about unschooling alongside her experience going through menopause. Sara’s two sons are older now, but her daughter, Pamela, is nine. We talk about her family’s flow and how the addition of Pamela shifted things for everyone […]
EU324: Open and Queerious with Ellie Winicour
Apr 07, 2022
Ellie Winicour joins me on the podcast this week! Ellie, her wife Jodi, and 8-year-old Celia have always unschooled, following Celia’s interests and flow. Ellie shares some of her experience embracing pretend play and the deep connection that comes from stepping away from the mainstream adult-child power dynamic. She also shares how she has intentionally […]
EU323: Spinning a Web: The Art of Learning
Mar 31, 2022
This week on the podcast I share a talk I wrote in 2014, Spinning a Web: The Art of Learning. With unschooling, learning often looks very different than what we’ve been taught to expect, so it can take a while to recognize it in action. And then it takes time to figure out how, as […]
EU322: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Mar 24, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about cocooning and connecting with young teens, the mainstream concept of productivity and how we get curious about external messages of judgment, and the idea of an “ideal unschooler.” As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving […]
EU321: A Passion for Creative Writing
Mar 17, 2022
This week on the podcast, I am joined by two teenage writers, Isabella Watkins and Caitlin Wharton, and their mentor, Milva McDonald. The three of them share their experience creating and participating in a homeschool creative writing group. This past year, they published an anthology of short stories and poetry and they describe some of […]
EU320: Amy’s Unschooling Journey with Amy Hughes
Mar 10, 2022
Amy Hughes, unschooling mom of eight children, joins me on the podcast this week. Over the years, Amy’s family moved from school to homeschooling to Charlotte Mason and finally to unschooling. She shares the big a-ha that led her to unschooling as well as how unschooling works in her large family. We talk about Amy’s […]
EU319: Unschooling Stories with Missy Willis
Mar 03, 2022
Missy Willis, a longtime unschooling mom of two, joins me again on the podcast this week to share more about her unschooling journey. We talk about the way that unschooling leads us to question everything, from conventional parenting and education to productivity and success. And we dive deep into a few common misconceptions about peaceful […]
EU318: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Feb 24, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We explore the idea of unschooling philosophy and strong beliefs, how gaming and unschooling might go together, and the idea of “self-directed” learning. And, as always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer, because there isn’t […]
EU317: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Feb 17, 2022
Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time, we explore unschooling in the context of boundaries, comfort zones, and capacity. This topic came up as we were diving into cultivating self-awareness in the Living Joyfully Network last month and we wanted to talk about it here too! Setting boundaries is a […]
EU316: Teens and Passions with Robyn Robertson
Feb 10, 2022
Robyn Robertson, unschooling mom of two, joins me again on the podcast this week. Since our last conversation in 2018, Robyn’s kids have grown! We talk about how unschooling changes when our children become teenagers. Robyn shares how supporting their interests and passions looks different now, but that the connection and relationships are still strong. […]
EU315: Nurturing Our Children and Ourselves with Teresa Hess
Feb 03, 2022
Teresa Hess, unschooling mom of three, joins me again on the podcast this week to explore how her unschooling journey has helped her not only nurture her children but re-parent herself. We talk about Teresa’s spiritual view of unschooling and the upward spiral of connection and love that happens when we see children as whole […]
EU314: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Jan 27, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me this week to dive into listener questions! We explore technology and “screen time,” deschooling, connection, and validation. And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any […]
EU313: Advice for New Unschooling Dads
Jan 20, 2022
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode with answers to a question I ask many of the unschooling dads who are on the podcast: As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just starting out on this journey? And I love the range […]
EU312: The Breadth of Unschooling with Sara Davidson
Jan 13, 2022
Sara Davidson, unschooling mom of two, joins me on the podcast this week to explore the breadth of unschooling. Sara shares her journey from controlling, conventional parenting to the connected relationships she has with her children now. We talk about many of the paradigm shifts she made along the way and how her entire view […]
EU311: Ten Questions with Erika Ellis
Jan 06, 2022
Erika Ellis joins me again on the podcast this week! On previous episodes, Erika and I have talked about unschooling book clubs and self care, but she’s back to share more about her unschooling journey. We talk about the paradigm shifts that she made during deschooling and how her and her husband’s teaching work influenced […]
EU310: Unschooling Through the Teen Years
Dec 30, 2021
We may have been unschooling pretty comfortably for years, connecting with our kids, having fun, actively supporting them as they pursue their interests, but then our eldest approaches the teen years and all of a sudden we start to feel a bit uncomfortable. We begin to worry. Is unschooling going to work through the teen […]
EU309: Deschooling with Christina Kauffman
Dec 23, 2021
Christina Kauffman is an unschooling mom of three young kids, and she joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. We explore both what she’s found challenging and what she’s found surprising so far. She also shares her experience with navigating sibling dynamics. We have a lovely conversation! Questions for Christina Can you […]
EU308: Unschooling Dads with Philip Mott
Dec 16, 2021
Philip Mott, a former teacher and unschooling dad to three young children, joins me this week. Philip shares how his unschooling journey began and how his experience as a teacher and what he learned about educational philosophy shaped his path. We talk about the challenges of deschooling and how ingrained our cultural beliefs really are. […]
EU307: How Unschooling Grows with Fran Liberatore
Dec 09, 2021
Fran Liberatore, unschooling mom of two and the creator behind the Instagram account Big Mothering, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey so far. Fran, currently working on her master’s degree in early years education, shares some of her reflections about educational philosophy and practice and how she hopes to see schools […]
EU306: Unschooling Seasons with Iris Chen
Dec 02, 2021
Iris Chen, author of Untigering and mother of two, returns to the podcast this week to share what their unschooling lives look like right now and talk about her book. Iris talks about her family’s experience with a self-directed learning center and the path her sons took to make the choice to attend one. We […]
EU305: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 7
Nov 25, 2021
This week, we’re finishing up my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. In chapter 8, Childhood is Bigger Than School, I explore how we can choose to embrace the unschooling mindset […]
EU304: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 6
Nov 18, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 7: Family Relationships. In this chapter, I explore moving beyond power struggles, the idea of fairness […]
EU303: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 5
Nov 11, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 6: Exploring Character. In this chapter, I dive into some of the character traits being explored […]
EU302: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 4
Nov 04, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 5: Cultivating Creativity. In this chapter, I dive into the widely accepted Geneplore model of creativity, […]
EU301: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 3
Oct 28, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 4: The Joy of Learning. Things mentioned in the episode Pam’s Instagram, sharing highlights of the […]
EU300: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 2
Oct 21, 2021
To mark the occasion of hitting 300 episodes, I decided to share the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting and with an audience in mind who are curious, but maybe haven’t yet made the leap. And I was […]
EU299: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 1
Oct 14, 2021
Episode 299! Wow. For the last few weeks, I’ve been pondering what I’d like to do to mark the milestone of 300 episodes. Maybe a compilation episode, maybe a solo episode. Hmm. I’ve been doing those regularly for the last while (which I’m loving), so I planted that seed and let it bubble around in […]
EU298: Unschooling Stories with Megan Valnes
Oct 07, 2021
Megan Valnes, an unschooling mom of six, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey. Megan was on the podcast once before, way back in 2018, and it was so fun to catch up and see how her life has unfolded since then. She shares some of the challenges of having a large […]
EU297: Cultivating Trust with Anna Brown
Sep 30, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Cultivating Trust. This has been such a valuable theme to explore because trust really is foundational to unschooling—I can’t imagine unschooling thriving without trust! We begin by looking at how we can develop trust with our children, […]
EU296: Deschooling Discoveries
Sep 23, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode exploring deschooling discoveries. One of the many things I love about the unschooling journey is how unexpected it can be. As we dive deeper and deeper into deschooling, we begin to question so many things! Things we thought were pretty much facts—about children, about learning, about relationships, […]
EU295: Unschooling Dads with Jesper Conrad
Sep 16, 2021
Jesper Conrad joins me this week to talk about his experience as an unschooling dad. Jesper shares his perspective of their family’s decision to unschool, which began when their now 15-year-old son tried kindergarten. We talk about Jesper’s move from an office job to working from home and some of the paradigm shifts that he’s […]
EU294: Worldschooling Nomads with Cecilie Conrad
Sep 09, 2021
Cecilie Conrad joins me from Istanbul this week to talk about her unschooling, worldschooling life with her family. Cecilie shares about her path to unschooling, which started when her second child began attending school. We talk about how her family’s love of travel has enriched their lives and how the unschooling lifestyle fits so well […]
EU293: Raising Free People with Akilah S. Richards
Sep 02, 2021
Akilah S. Richards joins me again to talk about her most recent book, Raising Free People: Unschooling as Liberation and Healing Work. We talk about her definitions of unschooling and deschooling and dive deep into the far-reaching impacts of choosing an unschooling lifestyle. We also dive into some of the profound realizations she’s had about […]
EU292: Embracing Cocoons and Bubbles with Anna Brown
Aug 26, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our monthly theme in the Living Joyfully Network, Embracing Cocoons and Bubbles. It is part of the human experience to have periods of introspection, of pulling inward, processing, and integrating. Our children may lose interest in their usual activities while not yet knowing what’s next for […]
EU291: What to Do Instead of School
Aug 19, 2021
This week, I have a solo episode for you! As the back-to-school energy hits its peak this month, I thought it might be helpful to re-commit to our choice to NOT go back to school. It’s completely understandable to feel a bit off-kilter as the “back to school” messages ramp up around us—be kind to […]
EU290: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 1
Aug 12, 2021
Jae Williams recently decided to leave his teaching job and stay home to dive into unschooling with his two young children. Leading up to this choice, he spent the last year immersed in podcasts and books, exploring natural learning and questioning many mainstream paradigms about children, schooling, and success. We talk about his experience as […]
EU289: Unschooling Dads with Izaak Sibley
Aug 05, 2021
Izaak Sibley joins me this week to share his experience as an unschooling dad. He shares about his own school education, how he saw his love of learning disappear over time, and how unschooling with Q has reignited it. We talk about trusting human curiosity and how he has seen Q’s learning naturally lead in […]
EU288: Sitting with Fear and Discomfort with Anna Brown
Jul 29, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Sitting with Fear and Discomfort. This is something that comes up on our unschooling journey pretty regularly because, not only are we challenging lots of cultural norms around learning and parenting, we’re also giving our children space […]
EU287: Why Joy?
Jul 22, 2021
This week, I have a solo episode for you! The idea to share why I focus on joy and the unschooling journey bubbled up a couple of weeks ago and it’s been fun to put this together. And for listeners who may be newer to the podcast, I share a bit about me before diving […]
EU286: Connect with Courage with Roya Dedeaux
Jul 15, 2021
Roya Dedeaux joins me on the podcast this week to talk about her new book Connect with Courage. Roya is a grown unschooler, a marriage and family therapist, and an unschooling mom of three, so she has lots of experience to draw from as she considers how children learn and thrive. In her book, Roya […]
EU285: Unschooling Stories with Erin Rosemond
Jul 08, 2021
Erin Rosemond, an unschooling mom of four, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey. Erin shares her earliest reflections on her own schooling experience and how they prepared her for embracing the idea of home educating her children. We dive deep into the ideas of interdependence, collaboration, and kindness, and how unschooling […]
EU284: Deschooling with Lane Clark
Jul 01, 2021
Lane Clark joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey and to dive into what she’s learned through deschooling. Lane’s journey began when her family was living abroad and felt their best option was homeschooling. When their carefully chosen curriculum didn’t feel like a good fit, she discovered unschooling and has been questioning […]
EU283: The Value of Play with Anna Brown
Jun 24, 2021
This week, Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Play! We dive into how integral play is for learning both about the world and about ourselves. We can carry a lot of preconceived notions about play, its value, its place in our lives, even the definition of […]
EU282: Teachers Turned Unschoolers
Jun 17, 2021
This week, I want to dive into another question that I get pretty regularly, and that’s whether I have podcast episodes with unschooling parents that used to be teachers. It’s fun to ponder the why behind the question. Does it seem like a strange leap to make? To me, choosing teaching indicates an interest in […]
EU281: Going Deep with Unschooling with Talia Bartoe
Jun 10, 2021
Talia Bartoe joins me again on the podcast to update us about her family’s unschooling journey. We didn’t know it going in, but it quickly became obvious that the theme of our conversation was “going deep”! Talia generously shares so much about her inner work and the shifts she’s made as part of deschooling and […]
EU280: Growing Up Unschooling with Samantha Donndelinger
Jun 03, 2021
This week, I am joined by 20-year-old Samantha Donndelinger, who has always been unschooled. Samantha shares some of her childhood stories and reflections on growing up unschooling. We talk about how her family’s lifestyle gave each child the space to make choices and figure out their own path, and how making choices and exploring her […]
EU279: Validation with Anna Brown
May 27, 2021
This week, Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Validation. Diving deep into validation flows beautifully from last month’s theme of Stories because practicing validation with the people in our lives is about hearing, understanding, and accepting their stories as their truth in the moment. Our connections […]
EU278: Unschooling in Large Families
May 20, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode to dive into a question that I get pretty regularly: What does unschooling look like in larger families? As we learn more about unschooling, we’re encouraged to spend time with our kids, to say yes more, to connect with them more, to explore ways to meet everyone’s […]
EU277: Unschooling Q&A with Sue Patterson, Part 2
May 13, 2021
Sue Patterson joins me again this week for the second part of our conversation, diving into three more listener questions. Check out part one here! Question Summaries I feel like I should be finding more friends for my kids to play with, but I’m introverted and it’s hard for me to reach out. My 12yo […]
EU276: Unschooling Q&A with Sue Patterson, Part 1
May 06, 2021
Sue Patterson joins me this week to dive into listener questions! And I’m sure it’ll surprise nobody that our conversation went long, so I’ve split it into two episodes—three questions each. A quick reminder, these Q&A conversations aren’t about giving anyone a “right” answer. We can’t know that because we don’t intimately know the real […]
EU275: Stories with Anna Brown
Apr 29, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Stories. Diving into this theme has been fascinating because there are so many ways in which we tell stories as humans, with really far-reaching impacts. We talk about the stories we tell ourselves and our families in […]
EU274: Rules versus Principles
Apr 22, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a solo episode. This episode is geared to parents who are newer to unschooling, navigating the paradigm shifts that come with questioning so much of the conventional wisdom around learning and parenting that we absorbed growing up. Spoiler alert: there are no unschooling “rules.” But I think more experienced unschooling […]
EU273: The Energy of Unschooling with Blathnaid Cantwell
Apr 15, 2021
Blathnaid Cantwell joins me on the podcast this week to talk about her family’s unschooling journey. Initially, it was science and research that inspired Blathnaid’s parenting, but she found over time that her lived experience, as well as that of other families, helped her more deeply understand unschooling in practice. We talked about peeling back […]
EU272: Our Unschooling Journey with the Beck Family, Part 2
Apr 08, 2021
The Beck family of five—Angie, Darren, Josh, Rylie, and Ellie—are back to continue our conversation about their unschooling journey. We had so much fun chatting and sharing stories that our conversation flowed for about two hours, so I split it across two episodes. Check out part one here! This week, we talk about each of […]
EU271: Our Unschooling Journey with the Beck Family, Part 1
Apr 01, 2021
The Beck family of five—Angie, Darren, Josh, Rylie, and Ellie—joins me this week for a wonderful conversation about their unschooling journey. As you can imagine, the six of us had so much fun chatting and sharing stories that our conversation flowed for about two hours, so I’ve split it across two episodes. In part 1 […]
EU270: Supporting Our Partners with Anna Brown
Mar 25, 2021
This week Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Supporting Our Partners. We chose the word “partners” to represent any important adults in our family’s lives who have active relationships with our children—spouses, co-parents, significant others, grandparents, and so on. Our partners are an important part of […]
EU269: Unschooling Doesn’t Spoil Children
Mar 18, 2021
This week, we’re diving into a question that comes up pretty regularly, not just from people new to unschooling but also from extended family and friends when they see our parenting choices in action: Won’t unschooling spoil a child? We look at four examples of parenting behaviours or actions, the typical conventional and unschooling motivations […]
EU268: The Joy of Unschooling with Karen Matthews
Mar 11, 2021
Karen Matthews joins me this week! Karen and her grown son, Tyler, own a furniture and wood craft business together. We talk about how their unschooling journey began and how following Tyler’s interests has not only been a rewarding path for him, but also for her. Karen shares some of the big a-ha moments she […]
EU267: Growing Up Unschooling with Laura and Allen Ellis
Mar 04, 2021
Siblings Laura and Allen Ellis join me this week to talk about growing up unschooling. They share how their childhood interests and experiences connect to the work that they currently do and some of the realizations they made along the way. We talk about the role their mother played in supporting their interests and providing […]
EU266: Finding Our Guides with Anna Brown
Feb 25, 2021
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network, our theme is ‘Finding Our Guides.’ As I wrote about in The Unschooling Journey, our children can serve as our most valuable guides, helping us move through our fears towards joy and connection. Anna and I talk about how handing our […]
EU265: Unschooling Passions
Feb 18, 2021
Pam shares her essay, Unschooling Passions. Unschooling is about learning through living. As unschooling parents, we want to open up the world for our children to explore. But what if your child is passionately interested in just one thing? Doesn’t that close off his access to the world and limit his learning? I have two […]
EU264: Unschooling Stories with Julia Triman
Feb 11, 2021
Julia Triman joins me to share her family’s unschooling journey. As a mom of two young children, Julia reflects on how her understanding of parenting and learning has changed through observation and being present with them. We talk about the incredible depth of her children’s play and how powerful it is that they can choose […]
EU263: Unschooling Paradigm Shifts with Susan Walker
Feb 04, 2021
Susan Walker, who lives in the Patagonia region of Argentina, joins me this week to talk about her family’s unschooling journey and the major paradigm shifts she made along the way. We talk about her discoveries about being highly sensitive and introverted, how diving into unschooling resulted in so much personal growth, and how her […]
EU262: Nurturing Our Children’s Learning with Anna Brown
Jan 28, 2021
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Nurturing Our Children’s Learning. We are getting back to the basics of unschooling by observing how children learn through following their interests. Exploring learning through the lenses of curiosity and creativity, we talk about what to do when […]
EU261: Deschooling with Joss Goulden
Jan 21, 2021
Joss Goulden, who lives in Western Australia and is mom to two kids, joins me to talk about her family’s unschooling journey. We talk about how she was inspired by her son’s brief time in kindergarten to make the choice to try unschooling, what her deschooling process looked like, and how she sees learning happening […]
EU260: Unschooling Stories with Betsey Tufano
Jan 14, 2021
Betsey Tufano, an unschooling mother of two living in Barcelona, Spain, joins me this week! Betsey shares many details about her unschooling journey and about the importance of the internal work that she did along the way. We also discuss how her relationship with her partner has changed and deepened through their choice to unschool, […]
EU259: Nuggets of Wisdom from Five Years of the Exploring Unschooling Podcast
Jan 07, 2021
This week marks the five year anniversary of the Exploring Unschooling podcast! To celebrate, I decided to dig into the podcast’s rich treasure trove of unschooling stories and highlight a handful of the many beautiful nuggets of wisdom that guests have shared over these five years. It’s been such a treat to revisit episodes as […]
EU258: Seeing the Magic with Anna Brown
Dec 31, 2020
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Seeing the Magic. As we move into the re-invigorating energy of new year, we are turning our attention to connecting with our children and finding the joy in our everyday lives with them. Anna and I talk about […]
EU257: Unschooling Instincts with Ali Walker
Dec 24, 2020
This week, I’m joined by Ali Walker, an unschooling mom and primatologist living in New Zealand. I have gotten to know Ali on the Living Joyfully Network, where she has shared some incredible insights about parenting and unschooling through her lens as a primate researcher focusing on the mother/infant bond. Ali details some of the […]
EU256: Deschooling with Marta Venturini
Dec 17, 2020
Marta Venturini joins me this week! Marta lives with her husband and daughter in Portugal. We dive deep into her unschooling journey, which began when her daughter was an infant, and discuss her deschooling process and how it continued to evolve as she grew as a parent. Marta also shares how much she values the […]
EU255: Choices and Unschooling with Holly Clark
Dec 10, 2020
Holly Clark joins me this week, mom to two always unschooled children living on the Sunshine Coast in Australia. Holly shared so many amazing snippets of their lives which all tied into the idea of choice—the choices we make as parents, the choices our children make, and our choice to support their choices! We also […]
EU254: Finding Unschooling with Daniela Bramwell
Dec 03, 2020
Daniela Bramwell joins me this week, an unschooling mom living in Ecuador. Daniela’s journey is fascinating! As a child, she was a student at an alternative free school, but, as an adult, found herself wondering if there was a better way to approach learning. She dove deep into learning about educational philosophies, including pursuing her […]
EU253: Navigating Family Gatherings with Anna Brown
Nov 26, 2020
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about navigating family gatherings, the theme this month on the Living Joyfully Network. With the holiday season ramping up, it’s a great time to explore how we choose to engage in larger family celebrations, but the ideas are definitely be applicable throughout the year, from birthday parties […]
EU252: Unschooling Stories with Eva Witsel
Nov 19, 2020
Eva Witsel joins me this week, an unschooling mom and homeschooling activist in the Netherlands. Eva’s journey to unschooling is such an interesting one, as is her varied experience supporting the Dutch homeschooling community and affecting legislation there. We talked a lot about technology, following our passionate interests, supporting children as they become teenagers, and […]
EU251: Unschooling as a Lifestyle with Lucia Silva
Nov 12, 2020
Lucia Silva joins me this week to talk about unschooling as a lifestyle and her journey so far! We talked about how her understanding of unschooling has grown over the past few years and how what she’s learned has benefited all of her relationships. We also dove into the idea of expectations and how conversations […]
EU250: Embracing Unschooling with Donna Anderson
Nov 05, 2020
Donna Anderson joins me this week to talk about her family’s unschooling journey. We dive deep into her family’s interests, some of which are individual and many of which they share as a family. We also explore the idea of an unschooling nest, talk about some of the challenges of deschooling, and how maintaining strong […]
EU249: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Oct 29, 2020
Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time, we explore unschooling in the context of consent. I think consent lies at the heart of unschooling and I’m excited to share my conversation with Anna about what that means and how it informs the ways our families move through the world. It […]
EU248: Favorite Things about Unschooling
Oct 22, 2020
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode! This time, it’s a collection of responses to the question, “What is your favourite thing about the flow of your unschooling days?” If you’re newer to unschooling, these can be a great reminder of where you’re heading. And if you’re more experienced, they can be a great […]
EU247: From Teaching to Unschooling with Kelsi Stembel
Oct 15, 2020
Kelsi Stembel joins me this week! Kelsi has two teen daughters and is a former teacher turned farmer and entrepreneur. It was a joy to hear about how both her girls have developed and learned at their own pace, honoring their unique styles, and how unschooling has been such an amazing gift for their family. […]
EU246: Unschooling and Neurodiversity with Michelle Morcate
Oct 08, 2020
Michelle Morcate joins me this week to talk about their unschooling journey and how unschooling is such a natural fit when considering neurodiversity because it’s all about facilitating our children as individuals, how they learn, and how they want to move through the world. Michelle’s excitement as an ally and advocate is contagious and we […]
EU245: Unschooling Stories with Cate & Jenna Phillips
Oct 01, 2020
Cate and Jenna Phillips join me to share some of their wonderful unschooling stories! With six children, it was inspiring to hear about how their journey has unfolded as they prioritize relationships, follow their passions, and work together to support each other. Questions for Cate and Jenna Can you share a bit about you and […]
EU244: Not Back to School with Anna Brown
Sep 24, 2020
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Not Back to School. It has been a rich month of checking in with ourselves, quieting the outside noise, and focusing on our kids and the joy around us. Anna and I talk about the “back to school” […]
EU243: Parenting Shifts with Sarah Peshek
Sep 17, 2020
Sarah Peshek joins me this week! Sarah is an unschooling mom of three and she shares the details of her journey and her parenting shifts from control to connection. Her insights and experiences are so helpful in really pulling out why this lifestyle is so amazing! How unschooling encourages us to recenter around the person […]
EU242: Deschooling with Nadia Joshua
Sep 10, 2020
Nadia Joshua joins me this week to talk about her family’s move to unschooling and her personal deschooling journey. It was delightful to learn more about her family and how they navigated moving to one income, explored the need to go and do, learned to honour both her daughters and their individual personalities, and lots […]
EU241: Exploring Race, Racism, and Diversity in Unschooling with Erika Davis-Pitre
Sep 03, 2020
Erika Davis-Pitre joins me again this week! I rebroadcast her episode, Unschooling and Diversity, earlier this year and she graciously offered to return and answer listener questions that arose from that episode. The result is this amazing episode with so many actionable steps and layers to peel back for all of us on this unschooling […]
EU240: Kids Are Capable with Anna Brown
Aug 27, 2020
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into the topic, Kids Are Capable. It’s a foundational principle of unschooling, and seems simple enough, but it’s about so much more than meets the eye! Questions for Anna Choice is a great lens through which to start looking at the idea that ‘kids are capable.’ Paying […]
EU239: Unschooling Dads with Roop Bhadury
Aug 20, 2020
This week I’m joined by unschooling dad, Roop Bhadury. Roop’s wife Susan joined me earlier this year in episode 220. It was such a treat to get to hear about their family from Roop’s perspective but more than that we had an amazing conversation about the philosophies of unschooling and entrepreneurship, life, relationships, we covered […]
EU238: Deschooling with Jessica Kane
Aug 13, 2020
This week, I have a lovely conversation with Jessica Kane. Jessica and her husband live in Ireland, and have three children. Her oldest attended school through high school, her middle son left school in grade 4, and her youngest son has never been to school. This gives her such a unique perspective to share! We […]
EU237: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Six
Aug 06, 2020
This week I’m sharing part six of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we covered stages ten, eleven, and twelve, ultimately reaching the holy grail of our quest: unschooling with confidence and grace. Let’s do a quick review to set the stage for the final leg of our […]
EU236: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Five
Jul 30, 2020
This week I’m sharing part five of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we covered stages eight and nine. And while our deschooling story to that point was working through much of the nuts and bolts of unschooling, in stages eight and nine we begin the personal growth […]
EU235: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Four
Jul 23, 2020
This week I’m sharing part four of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we entered the deschooling phase of our journey and found ourselves on the aptly named road of trials: a series of tests and challenges that the hero faces as they begin this personal transformation in […]
EU234: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Three
Jul 16, 2020
This week I’m sharing part 3 of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. One thing I love about looking at our unschooling lives through this lens is how intimately it connects us to the human journey, which can help us feel less alone. Recognizing that yes, other people really […]
EU233: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Two
Jul 09, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part two of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Inspired by Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey framework, The Unschooling Journey is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from my journey. It’s not a “how to” book—no two paths through the world of unschooling have the […]
EU232: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part One
Jul 02, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part one of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Published in 2018, here’s a bit of the description: Inspired by Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey framework, The Unschooling Journey is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from Pam’s journey. It’s not a “how to” […]
EU231: Growing up Unschooling with Michael Laricchia
Jun 25, 2020
My son Michael joins me this week to talk about his experience growing up unschooling! We had a lot of fun diving into his varied interests, the threads that weave through them, and how they have helped shape the person he is today. We also talk about his experience with type 1 diabetes and our […]
EU097 RECAST: Unschooling and Diversity with Erika Davis-Pitre
Jun 18, 2020
This episode was first shared in November of 2017, and I want to share it again now as the Black Lives Matter movement gains important momentum to bring Erika’s valuable experience and insights about diversity and racism through the lens of unschooling back into our conversations. Erika and her husband, Michael have four adult children—they […]
EU230: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Jun 11, 2020
The idea with the unschooling in context episodes is to deepen our understanding of unschooling by exploring it in the context of other, related things. In this episode, we dive into unschooling in the context of parenting and examine some of the paradigm shifts around parenting and parent/child relationships that are integral to helping unschooling […]
EU229: From Control to Connection
Jun 04, 2020
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode! This time, the lens is on parenting and the shift away from control and toward connection and engagement with our kids. I think you’ll get a lot out of this deep dive. Audio clips taken from these episodes … EU027: Ten Questions with Teresa Graham Brett EU084: […]
EU002 RECAST: Ten Questions with Pam Sorooshian
May 28, 2020
Pam Sorooshian is a veteran unschooling mom of three now adult daughters. Originally broadcast as the second episode of the podcast, I wanted to bring this gem back into the light! In our conversation, Pam shares so many incredible insights from her experience. She talks about the early years of unschooling, tips on navigating sibling […]
EU228: Free to Learn, Part Three
May 21, 2020
This week, I’m sharing the third and final part of the audiobook recording of my book, Free to Learn: Five Ideas for a Joyful Unschooling Life. This episode dives into the fourth and fifth ideas: instead of ‘no’ and living together. If you haven’t read it yet, this is an opportunity to learn more about […]
EU227: Free to Learn, Part Two
May 14, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part two of the audiobook recording of my book, Free to Learn: Five Ideas for a Joyful Unschooling Life. This episode dives into the second and third ideas: that learning is everywhere and that choices are key to learning. If you haven’t read it yet, this is an opportunity to learn […]
EU226: Free to Learn, Part One
May 07, 2020
For the next while, I’m doing something a little different on the podcast. With many people sheltering in place worldwide due to the coronavirus pandemic, it’s become increasingly challenging to arrange interviews. At first that seemed curious because people are connecting online even more so during these uncertain times. But as I thought more about […]
EU225: Unschooling Stories with Liz Brady
Apr 30, 2020
Liz Brady joins me this week to share some of her family’s unschooling stories. Liz and her husband live with their four boys in Western Australia. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, her parenting journey, and the gift of sharing her life with so many unique and dynamic personalities. The love and joy shines […]
EU224: Deschooling with Fiona Munday
Apr 23, 2020
Fiona Munday joins me this week. Fiona and her husband live with their 4.5-year-old son in New Zealand and she dove into researching unschooling when her son was a baby. We have fun exploring her journey and she shares some of the wonderful insights and a-ha moments she’s already experienced—including applying the same principles to […]
EU223: Unschooling with Young Kids with Eva Whipple
Apr 16, 2020
Eva Whipple joins me this week! With children ages four and two, she and her husband have always known that they wouldn’t send their kids to school. We have a wonderful conversation diving into their journey, how she discovered unschooling, what their days look like, how capable and emotionally intelligent their children are, and how […]
EU222: Living Joyfully Network and Q&A with Anna Brown
Apr 09, 2020
This week’s episode is a special one for me. For a few months now, I’ve been percolating lots of thoughts and possibilities around building an engaging and supportive online unschooling community. Finally, it’s HERE! And Anna Brown is an integral part of it all, taking on the role of Community Advocate. We are well into […]
EU221: Unschooling and Neurodiversity with Tara McGovern Dutcher
Apr 02, 2020
Tara McGovern Dutcher joins me to talk about neurodiversity, how we are all unique in our experience of the world, and how unschooling creates an amazing environment from which our individual gifts can shine. Questions for Tara Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What is everyone into right now? […]
EU220: Pursuing Our Curiosity with Susan Bhadury
Mar 26, 2020
Susan Bhadury, an unschooling mom with two children, joins me this week. She shares some wonderful stories and insights as we dive into deschooling challenges, the joys of technology, helping our children follow their inner compass, how curiosity weaves its way through their lives, and lots more! Questions for Susan Can you share with us […]
EU219: Home with the Kids with Pam and Anna
Mar 19, 2020
For any parents who find themselves at home with the kids during these uncertain times, Anna Brown and I dive into the value of using this time to embrace and strengthen our relationships with our children, tips for navigating sibling conflicts, and some ideas to get your brainstorming juices flowing for fun things to do […]
EU218: Growing Up Unschooling with Jayn Coburn
Mar 12, 2020
Jayn Coburn joins me this week to talk about her experience growing up unschooling. Her mom, Robyn, joined me back in 2017 so it was great to connect with Jayn! She openly shares her unschooling experience and insights. We talk about video games, learning, food controls, and touch many of the big topics that come […]
EU217: Change the Way You See Things with Jason and Kim Kotecki
Mar 05, 2020
Jason and Kim Kotecki are back! We had a great time catching up and hearing about what’s going in their unschooling lives. I love Jason’s new book, ‘A Chance of Awesome: How Changing the Way You See Changes Everything’ and found so many parallels to our unschooling lives. The lens of unschooling changes how we […]
EU216: Deschooling with Nikki Zavitz
Feb 27, 2020
Nikki Zavitz joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. She talks about how her life as a teacher influenced her decision to unschool, and how it also created challenges in her deschooling journey. She shares stories from what she calls the “messy middle,” and the beautiful moments that come alive everyday, and […]
EU215: Unschooling Stories with Dola Dasgupta
Feb 20, 2020
Dola Dasgupta is a long-time unschooling mom with two older children and we have a fascinating conversation! She shares some wonderful stories as we dive into her journey to unschooling, deschooling challenges along the way, the value of free time, her experience unschooling in India, and lots more. Questions for Dola Can you share with […]
EU214: Unschooling Dads with Bob Mahan
Feb 13, 2020
Bob Mahan joins me to talk about his experience as an unschooling dad. An accountant for 24 years, he had all the bells and whistles of that career, but he didn’t enjoy it. In our conversation, he shares his journey from there to unschooling and living a life of freedom, fun, and connection. Nowadays, Bob, […]
EU213: Unschooling and Math with Marcella O’Brien
Feb 06, 2020
Marcella O’Brien joins me this week. Marcella is an unschooling mom of three boys. Her grown sons, Jack and Sean, joined me to share their experiences back in episode 181, so it was such a treat to hear Marcella’s journey. She was also a public school teacher and still tutors math which led to a […]
EU212: Ten Questions with Nisa & Jewel Deeves
Jan 30, 2020
Nisa Deeves and her daughter Jewel join me this week to answer ten questions about their unschooling lives. This was a lovely chat that felt like sharing a cup of tea with old friends. I love the rich tapestry of lives created by all of the unschoolers who so generously share their time with me. […]
EU211: Learning in the Real World
Jan 23, 2020
When we first decide our children aren’t going to go to school, it can be daunting to envision how they’re going to learn instead. The great thing is, we don’t need to re-create the ethos of school in our homes to help our children’s learning thrive in the real world. In this talk I gave […]
EU210: Unschooling Stories with Michelle Conaway
Jan 16, 2020
Michelle Conaway joins me this week. Michelle is an unschooling mother of three and grandmother to one! She also runs the Texas Unschoolers group, coordinates their annual conference, and was gracious enough to share her journey and some wonderful stories and insights from their unschooling lives. Questions for Michelle Can you share with us a […]
EU209: The Lovely Chaos of Unschooling with Shan Burton
Jan 09, 2020
Shan Burton is a writer, an unschooling mom and a recent widow. She kindly joins me this week to talk about her unschooling life, how the idea of Lovely Chaos (her website name) came about and how embracing unschooling healed her relationships and helped her family through the loss of their beloved husband and father. […]
EU208: Don’t Aim for Perfect with Sue Patterson
Jan 02, 2020
Sue Patterson joins me to talk about how the idea of “perfect” can get in the way of living our best unschooling life. We touch on comparisons, tough times, the personal work involved, the gifts that these choices bring, and lots more! Discussion Points Let’s start with the genuine excitement that bubbles up when we […]
EU207: Advice from Grown Unschoolers
Dec 26, 2019
It’s compilation episode time again! In many of my conversations with grown unschoolers, I ask what advice they’d like to share with newer unschooling parents who are starting out on this journey. In this episode, I’ve woven together answers from eleven episodes and twelve grown unschoolers. It’s so interesting to hear the things that they […]
RECAST: Unschooling the Holidays
Dec 19, 2019
Anna Brown joins Pam to talk about navigating the holiday season through the lens of unschooling. As we move into the holiday season, things can get challenging. Maybe you’re deep into deschooling and questioning everything—including holiday traditions—to see how well they really fit your family. Maybe you’re the lone unschooling family and anticipating uncomfortable visits […]
EU206: Deschooling with Kinsey Norris
Dec 12, 2019
Kinsey Norris is an unschooling mom with two kids and we had a wonderful chat about her journey! She has a background in Early Childhood Education and it was fascinating to see how many seeds were planted along the way that ultimately grew into the amazing unschooling life they are living as a family today. […]
EU205: Unschooling Dads with Lucas Land
Dec 05, 2019
Lucas Land is an unschooling dad with three kids, and we have a wonderful conversation about deschooling, living in another country, trusting our kids, and lots more! He also recently started a podcast, We Don’t Talk About That with Lucas Land. Questions for Lucas Can you share with us a bit about you and your […]
EU204: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Nov 28, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into listener questions. Question Summaries The first question is about deschooling and moving to unschooling. She has two boys and they have always homeschooled. They’ve been looking at moving to unschooling. She’s been reading and researching and she’s feeling a little bit overwhelmed. The main focus of […]
EU203: School’s out. Now what? Part 2
Nov 21, 2019
School’s out. Now what? Choosing to step off the conventional education path and leave school behind is often the culmination of a long, and sometimes emotional, process. But, in the bigger picture, it’s really just the first step on your new path. School’s Out is a curated collection of some of my published articles, in an […]
EU202: Unschooling and Connected Relationships with Liza Swale
Nov 14, 2019
Liza Swale joins me to talk about her unschooling journey and the value of connected relationships. She shares some amazing stories of trusting, being open, and following the flow. We also dive into what she’s learned about staying connected with her two children, who have very different needs and personalities, and how they prioritize connecting […]
EU201: Unschooling and Self Care with Erika Ellis
Nov 07, 2019
Erika Ellis joins me this week to talk about the very important topic of self care. Of course, we look at the topic through the lens of unschooling, dispelling some myths and letting go of some “shoulds” about how to take care of ourselves. Erika shares so many practical, easy to use tips to help […]
EU200: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Oct 31, 2019
It’s the 200th episode!!! What a wonderful journey it’s been! This week Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling In Context episode. We explore the idea of deschooling and how it fits in the larger context of unschooling. We talk about language, our values, ideas that we can let go and so much more. Anna […]
EU199: Unschooling Stories with Holly Johnson
Oct 24, 2019
Holly Johnson is an unschooling mom with two children, and her family is currently traveling the world together! How they got to that place is an amazing story. We dive into the choice to remove a child from school, helping an anxious child, hacking their lives to suit themselves, and how unconditional acceptance and love […]
EU198: School’s out. Now what? Part 1
Oct 17, 2019
School’s out. Now what? Choosing to step off the conventional education path and leave school behind is often the culmination of a long, and sometimes emotional, process. But, in the bigger picture, it’s really just the first step on your new path. Welcome! School’s Out is a curated collection of some of my published articles, […]
EU197: Choosing School, Part 2 with Alex Polikowsky
Oct 10, 2019
Alex Polikowsky joins me to share an update about how her family weaves school and unschooling together. Recently, a listener posted a comment on Alex’s first podcast appearance (almost three years ago) about how much she enjoyed the episode and that she’d love to hear an update. I thought it was a great idea and […]
EU196: Growing up Unschooling with Katie Patterson
Oct 03, 2019
Katie Patterson left school after kindergarten and grew up unschooling. She is an actress, a writer, and an all-around lover of horror. We have a wonderful conversation about her childhood, how her path has unfolded, what she loved about unschooling, and what she’s up to now. Questions for Katie Can you share with us a […]
EU195: Unschooling Stories with Renee Cabatic
Sep 26, 2019
Renee Cabatic, the mother of two unschooled teens, joins me this week to share some wonderful stories from their lives. We dive into passions and comfort zones, college and quitting, agency and self-efficacy, and lots more. Questions for Renee Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What did your family’s […]
EU194: Stretching Our Comfort Zones
Sep 19, 2019
Compilation episode time! This time, let’s explore the idea of stretching our comfort zones. This can come up in various ways along our unschooling journey. Often, we first encounter it when we’re actively deschooling and questioning so much of the conventional wisdom around learning and parenting that we’ve absorbed growing up. We can also find […]
EU193: Unschooling Younger Kids with Martha Delmore
Sep 12, 2019
Martha Delmore joins me this week to talk about unschooling with younger children. Unschooling wasn’t on her radar before she had kids—she’s a former high school teacher—but her desire to maintain and enhance her relationships with them led her down this unexpected path. We dive into attachment parenting, when family members question our choices, the […]
EU192: Unschooling to College with Amy Milstein
Sep 05, 2019
Amy Milstein’s two children have grown up unschooling. Last year, her eldest decided she wanted to go to college. We dive into how they handled the legalities of unschooling in New York, her daughter’s journey to college, and the lovely flow of their unschooling days along the way. I hope you enjoy the conversation as […]
EU191: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Aug 29, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into listener questions! Question Summaries Mom hears many parents on the podcast talking about hanging out with their kids so much more now that they’re unschooling. But since she stopped limiting screen time back in January, her boys, 15, 13, and 10, play online games. Her question: […]
EU190: Unpacking Unschooling Memes with Sue Patterson
Aug 22, 2019
Sue Patterson joins me this week to dive into five popular unschooling memes. Memes can be quick, inspirational pick-me-ups, but we don’t need to stop there—we can use them as a springboard to learn more about both ourselves and unschooling. It’s so worth doing the work. The five popular memes we discuss 1. “You cannot […]
EU189: Ten Questions with Amy Martinez
Aug 15, 2019
Amy Martinez joins me this week to talk about her family’s move to unschooling. Amy is a mother of five, who range in age from 15-29. They had time in public school, homeschooling, and ultimately moved to unschooling. Her insights on those transitions, on living in a big family, and on the connections and amazing […]
EU188: Our Unschooling Work with Jen Keefe
Aug 08, 2019
Jen Keefe joins me this week! Jen was on the podcast almost three years ago and I really enjoyed learning a bit about how their unschooling lives have grown and changed since then. We dive into what she found challenging as they moved to unschooling, how it’s been life-changing for her as well as the […]
EU187: Time and the Wild Landscape of Unschooling
Aug 01, 2019
I originally wrote this essay for Rosemary Magazine, for their winter issue, which had the theme, “wildschool.” I loved playing with that idea! There’s the outer wildness of living outside the structure of compulsory school. In the world, rather than in the classroom. Kids in the grocery store in the middle of the day. Running […]
EU186: Sparkle and Zest and Unschooling with Teresa Hess
Jul 25, 2019
Teresa Hess is an unschooling mom with three kids and the family—Teresa, her husband, and the kids—live in a cool co-housing community on an island in Washington state. Teresa and I had a wonderful conversation about their unschooling lives, diving into the shift to peaceful parenting, the ever-deepening spiral of mothering and self-awareness, the concept […]
EU185: Deschooling with Talia Bartoe
Jul 18, 2019
Talia Bartoe is an unschooling mom with four young children who have never been to school. We have a wonderful conversation about her deschooling journey—as someone who excelled in school, she had no idea this would be in her future. Her excitement and gratitude for finding this path and for the beautiful connections that have […]
EU184: Sprinkle in More Love with Shannon Loucks
Jul 11, 2019
Shannon Loucks joins me to talk about unschooling, parenting, and her new book, Love More: 50+ ways to build joy into childhood. Shannon’s an unschooling mom with two boys and she believes in the power of play and partnership as a way to bring more joy and love into our children’s lives. We dive into […]
EU183: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Jul 04, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time we’re diving into unschooling in the context of life. And what I mean by that is, we’re exploring how unschooling eventually weaves so tightly into our lives. Which is beautiful! Unschooling IS living our lives. Yet, as challenges arise, it can […]
EU182: Unschooling and Video Games
Jun 27, 2019
It’s time for another compilation episode! This time, let’s dive into video games. Video games are a common topic of conversation in unschooling circles because, when it comes to questioning conventional advice, this topic is a hot bed of widely varying perspectives. For me, when I find myself in that conundrum, I look to my […]
EU181: Growing Up Unschooling with Jack & Sean O’Brien
Jun 20, 2019
Jack and Sean O’Brien both grew up unschooling. Sean chose to continue unschooling during his teen years and Jack chose to go to high school. Now they’re both in college and we have a wonderful conversation about the ways that unschooling has woven its way through their current college experiences. Questions for Jack & Sean […]
EU180: Growing Up Unschooling with Nick Bergson-Shilcock
Jun 13, 2019
Nick Bergson-Shilcock joins me this week! In a nutshell, Nick grew up unschooling and now runs the Recurse Center in New York. It’s a wonderful space for both new and experience programmers to take a sabbatical and vastly improve their programming skills. It was fascinating to hear the story of how the Recurse Center came […]
EU179: Unschooling Stories with Joan Concilio
Jun 06, 2019
Joan Concilio joins me to share some of her family’s wonderful unschooling stories. We dive into her journey to unschooling, the learning that happened along the way, the profound changes it brought to their lives and the deep connections that it forged. She also talks about what it’s like to live in a highly regulated […]
EU178: Q&A with Anna and Pam
May 30, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to answer listener questions. We talk about finding ways to live together when we have different styles and needs, considering diplomas and next steps, allowances and family money, and how learning looks different in unschooling families. Question 1 [00:00:20] How do I make a minimalist, quiet home dynamic enough […]
EU177: Growing Up Unschooling with Alyssa Patterson
May 23, 2019
Alyssa Patterson joins me this week to chat about growing up unschooling! Alyssa and I dive into her interests growing up, her choice to go to high school for a year and a half, how she came to open her own business a few months ago, what she appreciates most about growing up unschooling, and […]
EU176: Coming Home with Tara Soto-Regester
May 16, 2019
Tara Soto-Regester, an unschooling mom with two children, joins me for a wonderful conversation about her family’s journey from school to unschooling. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, her son’s transition from school to coming home, what’s surprised her along the way, her new podcast, and lots more! Questions for Tara Can you share […]
EU175: Deschooling with Leah Rose
May 09, 2019
Leah Rose joins me this week to share her unschooling experience. Turns out, our conversation had such a lovely, organic flow that we soon left the questions behind! Show Notes In our conversation,we wove our way through these ideas: intrinsic motivation the pitfalls of comparison transitioning to unschooling breaking down deschooling conversations taking the place […]
EU174: Unschooling Teens at Camp with Laura Bowman
May 02, 2019
Laura Bowman is the founder of the East Tennessee Unschooled Summer Camp for teens and previous guests have said wonderful things about their camp experience. We dive into Laura’s unschooling journey, how the camp came to life in 2010, what a day at camp looks like, the idea behind the Mentor Groups, reluctant campers, and […]
EU173: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Apr 25, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week for a conversation with a twist: we’re not talking about the ins and outs of unschooling itself but about how it fits in the bigger picture. Hence the title of the episode, Unschooling in Context. It’s a topic I’ve been wanting to do for a while, but I really […]
EU172: Unschooling Travels with Heather Clark
Apr 18, 2019
Heather Clark joins me this week! I first met Heather a few years ago at an unschooling conference and I love the way she and her family have slowly but surely woven an interest in travel into their lives. We dive into her journey to unschooling, the story behind embracing travel, the value of embracing […]
EU171: The Magic of Learning to Read Naturally
Apr 11, 2019
It’s time for another compilation episode! This time I went with a topic rather than a particular question: the topic of learning to read naturally. Listen to ten different guests share their experiences around unschooling and learning to read. Hearing their stories in this new context—side by side—may well spark helpful new connections and insights […]
EU170: Unschooling in Action with Kelli & Rhanna Lincoln
Apr 04, 2019
Kelli and Rhanna Lincoln, unschooling mom and daughter, join me this week on the podcast. I had so much fun chatting with them and hearing about their unschooling lives—from both their perspectives. We talk about their journey to unschooling, living and learning with four kids (or three siblings!), their family’s RV travels, their latest business […]
EU169: Deschooling with Alicia Gonzales-Lopez
Mar 28, 2019
Alicia Gonzales-Lopez joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, the emotional healing that’s happened for her, what she’s found challenging along the way, connecting with our kids, what has surprised her most, and lots more. Questions for Alicia Can you share with us a bit […]
EU168: Embracing Unschooling with Joan Karp
Mar 21, 2019
Joan Karp, unschooling mom with three kids, joins me this week! We talk about her fascinating journey to unschooling, what she found challenging about deschooling, we dive deep into the teen years, what she most appreciates about having embraced unschooling, how her passion for sports weaves into their days, the new business they’ve recently started […]
EU167: Unschooling Dads with Ben Lovejoy
Mar 14, 2019
Ben Lovejoy, a long-time unschooling dad, joins me this week. I met Ben and his family at the first unschooling conference we ever attended. His boys are grown now and we have a lovely chat reflecting on his family’s journey, including the influence of his military background, the idea of rules versus principles, the value […]
EU166: Unschooling and the Teen Years with Sue Patterson: Part 2
Mar 07, 2019
This week is Part 2 of my wonderful conversation with Sue Patterson about unschooling and the teen years. In this episode we talk about the later teen years, transitioning into adulthood, is there preparation needed, should we be defining success for someone else, connection and how relationships evolve and change. So many wonderful moments talking […]
EU165: Unschooling and the Teen Years with Sue Patterson: Part 1
Feb 28, 2019
Sue Patterson returns to talk about unschooling and the teen years. We are both rather passionate about the topic and our conversation ended up lasting almost two hours! I decided to split it into two, and it actually worked out quite well, with Part 1 covering the transition into the teen years, and Part 2 […]
EU164: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Feb 21, 2019
This week Anna Brown joins me to answer some questions from listeners. We talk about finding friends, letting go of worry and fear of the future, the teen years, and more. I think you’ll find some helpful nuggets no matter where you are on your unschooling journey. Question 1 We are an Italian family. Here […]
EU163: Growing Up Unschooling with Adrian Peace-Williams
Feb 14, 2019
Adrian Peace-Williams joins me this week! A companion conversation to last week’s episode with her mom, Adrian and I have a wonderful conversation, diving into her childhood unschooling, her choice to go to high school, her years of traveling the world after high school, where she is now in her journey, and lots more. Her […]
EU162: Ten Questions with Alex Peace
Feb 07, 2019
Alex Peace has been one of my unschooling inspirations for many years! She has three adult children and I’m so excited that she agreed to come on the podcast to talk about her family’s unschooling experiences. We dive into what she found to be the most challenging aspect of deschooling, building trust, stretching comfort zones, […]
EU161: What is Unschooling?
Jan 31, 2019
This week, please enjoy the audiobook edition of my intro book, What is Unschooling? Written and read by me, Pam Laricchia. Here’s the description: Life in the real world is much bigger and more exciting than a school can contain within its four walls. If you’re ready to embrace life and eager to share its […]
EU160: Ten Questions with Kirsten Fredericks
Jan 24, 2019
Kirsten Fredericks and her husband Carl have three boys—now young adults—who pretty much grew up unschooling. We have a wonderful conversation as we touch on how she found unschooling, the most challenging aspect of deschooling, supporting our children’s passions, moving from control to trust, what has surprised her most about how their unschooling lives have […]
EU159: Growing Up Unschooling with Max VerNooy
Jan 17, 2019
Max VerNooy grew up unschooling. I’ve known Max’s family for many years, online and through unschooling gatherings, and I’m so happy he agreed to chat with me about his experience growing up unschooling. We talk about the ebb and flow of his interests through the years, his time mentoring at an unschooling summer camp, and […]
EU158: Unschooling Book Clubs with Tracy and Erika
Jan 10, 2019
Tracy Talavera and Erika Ellis are unschooling moms who also host an unschooling book club! We dive into the flow of a typical meeting, going about choosing books, figuring out membership, what they’ve personally gotten out of being part of the book club, and lots more. Questions for Tracy and Erika Can you each share with […]
EU157: Unschooling Intentions with Sue Patterson
Jan 03, 2019
Sue Patterson, a long-time unschooling mom with three now-adult children, joins me to talk about unschooling intentions. I love the energy of a new year, but I’m not so keen on making resolutions. For lasting change, I need something meatier. I’ve found that when I think about the kinds of changes I’d like to see in […]
EU156: Surprises on the Unschooling Journey
Dec 27, 2018
It’s time for another compilation episode! Let’s dive into how twelve unschooling parents answer the question, “What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives?” I hope you enjoy hearing what these unschooling parents had to share! Audio Snippets Taken from These Episodes … EU036: Deschooling with Lauren Seaver […]
EU155: Let ‘Em Go Barefoot with Missy Willis
Dec 20, 2018
Missy Willis is an unschooling mom of two children and host of the website, Let ‘Em Go Barefoot, where she shares her personal experiences, thoughts, and research around unschooling. We dive into her journey from getting her master’s in Special Ed to unschooling, what she means by the phrase “ego-schooling,” how jumping in to help our children […]
EU154: Unschooling Dads and Documentaries with Jeremy Stuart
Dec 13, 2018
Jeremy Stuart joins Pam for an engaging conversation about unschooling, documentaries, and life. Jeremy is an unschooling dad and video editor who also directed and co-produced the documentary film, Class Dismissed, which was released in 2015. Since then, it has been screened in more than 60 countries and translated into five languages. He’s now in the […]
EU153: Unschooling the Holidays with Pam and Anna
Dec 06, 2018
Anna Brown joins Pam to talk about navigating the holiday season through the lens of unschooling. As we move into the holiday season, things can get challenging. Maybe you’re deep into deschooling and questioning everything—including holiday traditions—to see how well they really fit your family. Maybe you’re the lone unschooling family and anticipating uncomfortable visits […]
EU152: Ten Questions with Vicky Bennison
Nov 29, 2018
Vicky Bennison and her husband always unschooled their two children—now young adults. I met Vicky years ago and we’ve stayed connected online ever since. We have a wonderful conversation diving into her unschooling journey, including what she found to be most challenging, the importance of being curious ourselves, what has surprised her most along the […]
EU151: Escape Adulthood with Kim and Jason Kotecki
Nov 22, 2018
Kim and Jason Kotecki are unschooling their three children, and they are also the brains and the fun behind escapeadulthood.com! We have a fantastic conversation, diving into their journey to unschooling, how they got into the work of fighting adultitis, how encouraging people to see their days through a more child-like lens is remarkably similar […]
EU150: Stories of an Unschooling Family with Sue Elvis
Nov 15, 2018
Sue Elvis and her husband Andy have eight children, seven living, ranging in age from 14 to 31. Sue hosts the podcast, Stories of an Unschooling Family, as well as a website and blog. We have a lovely conversation, diving into her family’s move to unschooling, the difference between unschooling and unparenting, how unschooling has grown […]
EU149: Deschooling with Tatiana Plechenko
Nov 08, 2018
Tatiana Plechenko is an unschooling mom with two children. I met Tatiana online pretty early in her unschooling journey and then had the pleasure of connecting with her in person a few times at unschooling events. We have a really fun conversation, diving into her deschooling experience, including her most challenging area, how her relationships with […]
EU148: The Value of Relationships for Learning
Nov 01, 2018
When I began unschooling my three children in 2002, it wasn’t long before I came across the idea that strong relationships with my children were essential for unschooling—and learning in general—to thrive. At first, I thought, sure, that’s a worthwhile goal, but what exactly does that have to do with their learning? That became clear […]
EU147: Unschooling as Flow with Robyn Robertson
Oct 25, 2018
Robyn Robertson is an unschooling mom with two children and host of the podcast, Honey, I’m Homeschooling the Kids. We have wonderful conversation, diving into her family’s early travels, their move to unschooling, figuring out what unschooling looks like for them, her favourite thing about the flow of their unschooling days, and lots more! Questions […]
EU146: Common First Questions About Unschooling with Sue Patterson
Oct 18, 2018
Sue Patterson, a long-time unschooling mom with three now-adult children, continues to encourage and support unschooling parents through her website and Facebook group, UnschoolingMom2Mom. In this episode, we have a great time tackling some of the common questions people ask when they are first exploring unschooling. Questions for Sue Can you share with us a […]
EU145: Healing and Unschooling with Caren Knox
Oct 11, 2018
Caren Knox is a long-time unschooling mom who found that, while she has been in and out of therapy over the years, nothing has been more impactful and life-changing for her than becoming a good unschooling mom. We dive into her family’s move to unschooling, when her healing journey began, her healing process and what […]
EU144: The Decision to Leave School Behind with Jen Lumanlan
Oct 04, 2018
As Jen Lumanlan puts it, “I don’t have much in the way of parenting instinct but I make up for it with outstanding research skills.” Her deep dive into parenting research led first to a Master’s in Psychology with a focus on Child Development, then to another Master’s in Education, and then ultimately to choosing unschooling as […]
EU143: Follow the Joy with Natasha Allan-Zaky
Sep 27, 2018
Natasha Allan-Zaky joins me this week for a wonderful unschooling conversation! We talk about her family’s move to unschooling, the challenge of embracing fun, learning piano, her biggest a-ha moment so far on the journey, and lots more. Questions for Natasha Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What did […]
EU142: Second Generation Unschooling with Amanda Sharma
Sep 20, 2018
Amanda Sharma joins me this week to share her fascinating perspective as a grown unschooler who is now unschooling her own children. We dive into her experience growing up unschooling, the process of choosing unschooling for her children and family, what she’s found challenging on the journey, her favourite thing about unschooling right now, and […]
EU141: Growing Up Unschooling with Alec Traaseth
Sep 13, 2018
I first met Alec Traaseth and his family when he was maybe twelve or thirteen, at an unschooling conference. I’ve enjoyed little glimpses of his life over the years through social media and I was so happy when he agreed to come on the podcast to chat about his experience growing up unschooling. We talk […]
EU140: Freeschoolin’ with Wendy Hart
Sep 06, 2018
Wendy Hart and her husband are unschooling their eight-year-old daughter. They live in Ontario, Canada where Wendy runs a local un/homeschool group that hosts fun activities, like yesterday’s Not Back to School Beach Meet-Up! We dive into how she discovered unschooling, how she’s helping her daughter pursue her interests, her biggest stumbling block on the […]
EU139: Questions from the Inbox
Aug 30, 2018
This week on the podcast, I’ve put together a new kind of Q&A. It dawned on me recently that I’ve written many thousands of words in email replies to unschooling-related questions over the last few years. And I suspect that, for every person who actually emailed me, there are many others with a similar question in mind. […]
EU138: The Sparkle of Unschooling
Aug 23, 2018
This week on the podcast, I’ve put together a compilation of sixteen experienced unschooling parents answering the question, “Looking back, what has been the most valuable outcome from choosing unschooling?” I titled this episode The Sparkle of Unschooling because the guests are talking about THE ONE THING. It’s the thing we eventually discover that we celebrate […]
EU137: The Untamed with Courtney Barker
Aug 16, 2018
Courtney Barker and her husband Dave are unschooling their three children. Originally from Australia, they moved to Northern Zambia when their first child was 12 weeks old. Four years later they moved to Chile, and four years after that they moved to Canada. We have a wonderful conversation about their journey from school to unschooling, […]
EU136: Our Unschooling Journey with Jessica Hughes
Aug 09, 2018
Jessica Hughes and her husband, Micah, have three children, ages 11 to 18. When their kids were younger, they were homeschooling with a curriculum but they eventually found their way to unschooling. We talk about that journey, what you can do when you feel caught up in everyday “struggles,” supporting your husband’s journey, shifting away from […]
EU135: Ten Questions with Anna Brown
Aug 02, 2018
Anna Brown is back! We have so much fun diving into her family’s move to unschooling, how she developed trust in the process, what she found to be the most challenging aspect, tips for moving from conventional parenting to consensual living, stretching our comfort zones, and lots more. Ten Questions for Anna 1. Can you share […]
EU134: How Unschooling Grows with Virginia Warren
Jul 26, 2018
Virginia Warren’s two daughters have never been to school. We have great fun diving into their journey to unschooling, her biggest stumbling block along the way, her perspective as a gamer mom, what’s surprised her most so far, what her favourite thing about unschooling is right now, and lots more! Questions for Virginia Can you share […]
EU133: The Twists and Turns of Unschooling with Bea Mantovani
Jul 19, 2018
Béa Mantovani is an unschooling mom with two children. I’ve known Béa online in unschooling circles for quite a few years—she’s even translated some of my blog posts into French. We have a really interesting conversation as we dive into the twists and turns of their unschooling lives, including how she found unschooling, her biggest […]
EU132: Deschooling Two Cultures with Iris Chen
Jul 12, 2018
Iris Chen is a Chinese American unschooling mom who was born in the US, grew up in the US and Canada, and now lives with her husband and two boys in China. She’s been unschooling for about a year and began sharing her experiences on her blog at untigering.com. I’ve really enjoyed reading her posts, […]
EU131: Deschooling with Maria Randolph
Jul 05, 2018
Maria Randolph’s unschooled daughter is now twenty, which gives her a great perspective to look back on her own deschooling, It was a fascinating journey! We talk about what she found to be one of the most challenging areas to deschool, regret and how it can get in the way, her journey through the question, […]
EU130: Dismantling Shame with Ronnie Maier
Jun 28, 2018
Ronnie Maier has two daughters now in their twenties, who unschooled after leaving school in the early grades—plus a niece who has stayed with them part-time over the years. In a fun twist, Ronnie was the working parent while her husband Frank was the at-home unschooling parent. Ronnie has shared her family’s unschooling experience for […]
EU129: Starting Unschooling as a Teen with Noah Tetzner
Jun 21, 2018
Noah Tetzner is seventeen, left school last fall, and it was not long before he was passionately unschooling. We talk about his transition from school to unschooling, what excites him about unschooling, the podcast he’s now had time to start, his advice for new unschooling parents and lots more. Questions for Noah Can you share […]
EU128: Reluctant Spouse to Unschooling Advocate with Zach & Heather Lake
Jun 14, 2018
Zach and Heather Lake join me this week to talk about Zach’s journey from reluctant spouse to unschooling advocate. Heather has been on the podcast before taking about her deschooling journey, and after the episode she mentioned that her husband has had quite the journey as well. It occurred to me that it would be interesting to […]
EU127: The Magic of Unschooling with Ann Rousseau
Jun 07, 2018
Ann Rousseau and her partner Tim have been unschooling their three boys for about six years. Ann and I have a fascinating conversation, digging into how her family came to unschooling, moving through fear and discomfort, the many ways curiosity drives their days, her documentary about her experience of alopecia, and lots more. Questions for […]
EU126: Q&A Round Table
May 31, 2018
This month, Anna Brown and I treat you to an extra long Q&A episode as we finish up the remaining questions! We dive into questions around the challenge of deschooling while holding tight to your fears, engaging with the unschooling community before having kids of your own, the decision to unschool, the transformational impact of shifting […]
EU125: Challenges on the Unschooling Journey
May 24, 2018
This week on the podcast, we have the first compilation episode! I gathered clips from fourteen different episodes where I asked some version of this question: “What has been one of the more challenging aspects for you on your unschooling journey?” I think it’s fascinating to hear them side by side, but I’d love to know […]
EU124: Unschooling the Early Years with Jen Kobrick
May 17, 2018
Jen Kobrick connected with me recently and suggested an episode about the idea of unschooling in the early years—before kids reach school age. Her son is almost three and she so beautifully explained why she thought it was a valuable topic that I asked if she’d be interested in talking about it with me. I […]
EU123: Unschooling and Food Round Table
May 10, 2018
This week on the podcast I’m trying something new: a round table discussion on a single topic. Questions around food are very common as people are deschooling and contemplating releasing control over their children’s food choices and Sylvia Woodman, Jo Isaac, and Meredith Novak join me to talk all things food. I hope you find […]
EU122: Unschooling Passions with Robin Bentley
May 03, 2018
Robin Bentley is an unschooling mom who loves dancing hula, playing the yukelele, and supporting her daughter’s exploration of her interests and passions. We have a wonderful conversation about unschooling passions, including how supporting our child’s interests often ends up being a positive experience for us as well, healing our own childhood, tips and ideas […]
EU121: Q&A Round Table
Apr 26, 2018
Anna Brown joins Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dive into questions around managing the environment when a parent works at home, when we’re not a “perfect mom,” helping our kids learn about diversity, when you’re not into your child’s passion, and helping your children process their emotions without taking them on yourself. […]
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