Explore unschooling with Pam Laricchia, Anna Brown, and Erika Ellis. We want to help parents figure out how to apply bigger picture unschooling ideas in their everyday lives.
EU373: Navigating Disagreements with Our Partner
Oct 24, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating disagreements with our partner. No matter how harmonious your relationship, disagreements will inevitably come up between two people. We share some tools that can help us navigate disagreements and give a few examples from our own lives where these have come into play.
We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Welcome to you both!
Today we are going to talk about navigating disagreements with our partner because that’s something that happens. We’re different people after all. But before we dive in, we would like to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network.
There is so much value in doing that deep personal work that the Unschooling journey asks of us in community because while everyone’s journey is definitely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges, and I think that’s where the power of community shines because you are no longer alone. You are part of a group of like-minded individuals who are on a similar journey, who acknowledge and encourage you.
As you walk alongside each other you can learn from their experiences, draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways they navigate their family’s day-to-day needs and disagreements with their partner. It’s not just about getting answers to your questions. It’s about exchanging ideas, broadening perspectives, and just feeling part of something bigger.
One of our members, Carolyn shared, “The Living Joyfully Network is truly a global community of strangers who become friends, a group of people who are living intentionally, hearing each other, holding space for one another, supporting one another, lifting each other up and inspiring one another.”
And, I just got goosebumps again because that’s how I feel when I step into the Network every day.
So to learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu.
And now Anna, would you like to get us started?
ANNA: I would! I feel like learning how to navigate disagreements is so important for any relationship because there are going to be times when we don’t see eye to eye and finding ways to express our needs and to really hear the other person is critical to finding mutually agreeable solutions and just living joyfully together.
Not surprisingly, I’m going to start with understanding that people are different. We really see the world differently. We prioritize different things. We have different histories and triggers that show up in different places in our lives.
And so when we start there, I think it allows us to not bring defensiveness into the equation when there’s a disagreement. We can be curious like, okay, wow, they’re seeing this really differently than I am, what’s going on? I want to understand, versus they’re seeing this differently, there’s something wrong with me, I’ve done something wrong. This is when we’re making it about us. And so I think that really understanding differences and getting excited and curious about it is a big, big important first step in this idea of navigating these disagreements.
Remember, this is somebody that you love. This is a partner, someone you’ve chosen to spend your life with. And I mean, I want to understand my partner. I want him to feel seen and heard, and you both want to feel comfortable with the decisions you’re making as a family because that just feels better.
It just feels better when you can get to that place of understanding each other. And the tools that we talk about so often come into play. Honestly, I’m not even sure if we can cover them all, so maybe we’ll just pick a few really important ones. The first one that really comes to mind for me when we have a disagreement is validation.
Because that’s our chance to really hear and to validate what your partner is telling you. And remember, you do not have to agree with somebody to validate their experience and you don’t have to change your mind to find a solution. Because I think that’s where we dig in. Thinking, I’ve been researching unschooling for years and they don’t know anything and I’m just going to dig my heels in.
But we’re missing that nuance of what’s happening for that other person. When we get defensive about it, when we dig our heels in. We don’t have to change our mind to really hear. This is feeling hard for you. This isn’t making sense for you. You’re feeling worried or nervous about this.
Validation helps move from that surface level statement to what the underlying needs are, and what I found is that, so often in that space of underlying needs, there’s common ground. We love our kids, we want our kids to feel good and to have a good life. We can find that common ground.
And from there then we’re able to move towards, okay, and how do we get to that? How do we navigate all of those pieces? Remembering that their concerns are a reflection of what’s happening for them. It’s not a commentary or a criticism of you. I think that’s important because it may be reflecting a little bit of disconnection.
Maybe your partner happens to work outside of the home and maybe doesn’t have the connection that you have, and so those concerns are a reflection of that. It’s not a commentary about you, it really is just. Oh wow. They don’t see these pieces. I want them to feel safe and comfortable, you know?
And so I think just that little bit of shifting your mindset around it and moving to that place of listening and validating really can help the energy of those conversations come down and it becomes this collaboration.
ERIKA: Yeah, the defensiveness is the enemy of validation.
That’s the thing that just makes it so hard in that moment. So, noticing that defensiveness in myself as a red flag, this is something where something is triggering me with what they’re saying. How can I move through that so that I can validate?
What people bump up against with validation is ideas like, but I know that this is better. I have to try to convince the other person. I have to try to convince my partner because otherwise, it’s all going to go off the rails. I know that this is important and I need to convince, and so, let me convince. I just need to figure out the right thing to say, to convince and defend my way and convince them.
It’s just the opposite of validating. But we need to remember that validation isn’t changing our mind. It’s not giving up. It’s not like now everything’s going to be just how they want it to be. It really is just about lowering the intensity of the conversation, having our partner feel understood and heard, and really being honest about our own vulnerable concerns and worries too. Because I think a lot of times if my husband has a concern about bedtime or whatever and tells me about it, I probably have concerns too. But my reaction is going to be to defend and say we’re doing this right and I know the way.
But really if we can both come at it as, okay, I have these concerns too. You have these concerns, this is real, and we are having these fears come up and it’s safe to talk about it. It’s safe to acknowledge you are having fears come up. And just really hearing, and validating means reflecting back what they’re saying and showing that you heard what they said and what they’re feeling.
I think it’s about understanding ourselves better, seeing what is a trigger and what’s causing defensiveness in ourselves, and then also knowing that the same thing is happening for them. They’re having their own triggers and having their own things that are being brought up from whatever their past is.
I think just being aware that all of that is happening underneath helps me come to it without that defensiveness. We’re just two different people. We have a lot of history of our own that’s coming into this and can we just take a moment to listen to each other?
PAM: Yeah, In my experience when I was not able to get to that validation place, where I just got stuck in that defensive place, we really were just batting it back and forth, trying to find the right words to convince the other person that we were right.
And it was just however long we managed to stay at it. Us just trying to say the exact same thing in a bit of different words, right? Trying to convince the other one why our way of looking at the thing was better or more right or whatever. And theirs was wrong.
We were stuck in that somebody’s right, somebody’s wrong. Somebody has to give in. Somebody has to win. Somebody has to lose. That whole dynamic. But yes, my understanding of an ability to engage in validation shifted hugely when I realized or learned from Anna and the world at that time, that I didn’t have to agree with what they were saying to be able to validate their experience. That was a game changer for me because it helped me to recognize the importance and the value of seeing situations and circumstances through their eyes as well as my own. Understanding myself to a new level. And triggers, those are always a big piece of it too. Recognizing triggers our own, and understanding they’re from our past experiences and they are our truth, right?
But coming to recognize that their perspective is as valid to them as mine is, to me. Releasing that whole right wrong dynamic and judgment piece is hard. Because the way we see things is absolutely our truth, right? But that was really the way. When the other person, and think about ourselves. When we feel seen and heard, it’s like, oh, like I can put down the shield, I can put down the defensiveness.
It’s like, okay, you hear me. You see my energy in reaction to whatever has come up. And now I feel like I can be so much more open. And I find that when the other person feels seen and heard, like that’s when we can move out of discussions about this moment. Like, we’re not stuck here and actually start to meet each other where we are.
So, that’s what was going through my mind, Anna, when you were talking about our partners being out of the house a good chunk of the day. They don’t see X, Y, and Z. So it’s not me trying to convince them and bat them over the head. It’s me meeting them with, if I didn’t know that, I would think that too. If I didn’t see all these other little pieces, like I can meet them where they are.
And then that’s where our more fruitful conversations that actually make some progress will be. That’s where we can talk about ourselves as human beings, as in people are different. This is the way I saw the thing. This is the way you saw the thing. Again, not right, wrong, not judging, but understanding the different perspectives.
And when we feel seen and heard, we can be so much more open to how things might unfold from there. We don’t have to come up with an answer. I think that’s the other thing in a disagreement, maybe where we want to move forward is let’s keep this in the back of our minds and then we’ll be maybe messaging each other over the next week or two.
Because now that that’s bubbling up for us, we’re going to be paying a little bit more attention. We’re going to be noticing the things in front of us that relate to whatever we’re having a disagreement about, right? And then we can come to a more commonplace together that incorporates all our pieces.
When the energy is down and we’re not feeling that defensiveness, we can be more open. It doesn’t have to be our solution. And it may end up being how we move forward weeks and months, is not the way either one of us first came to it. The disagreement, right? It’s like a new way makes sense..
This makes sense to you, and together we can walk down this path, but when you’re stuck in that defensiveness stage, you’re never going to be able to, or very rarely going to be able to get to the common path forward. The path that works for both of you. And validation really is that first step to take the energy out of that defensiveness.
ANNA: Right. Right. And it does help move us from that black and white right and wrong paradigm. I think it’s so critical and all of these pieces that we’re going to talk about are related, but I’m just going to highlight it. It’s assuming positive intent, which we talk about a lot as well.
And what I’ve found is that it helps give me a little bit of a pause.Okay, let me just turn my thinking brain on versus my defensive maybe more primal brain. I just want to assume positive intent. They’re trying to figure something out.
They’re trying to understand something about our family, or they love their kids, or they love me. And it’s interesting because I’ve had people say. How can it be positive intent if they’re grumping about this or whatever? The next step of assuming positive intent is they’re doing the best they can in that moment.
Something is dysregulating to them and they are trying to figure out how to feel more regulated. Like they’re trying to figure out how, what can I control or do that will make me feel better? So when I can recognize, oh, that’s it. I can have so much more compassion. So again, it’s not about me, that’s information about them and their state of mind and what’s happening for them.
And me actually coming in with that defensive energy can just cause them to double down. Everything just kind of derails from there. And so when I can come from an assuming positive intent, compassionate space. It opens things up and I think that validation is that first step because that’s when we can feel heard. If we don’t feel heard, most likely you’re going to get louder.
And so, if we can feel heard, then a lot of times it can bring that energy down. And when I’m assuming positive intent, it’s easier to validate. For some people this is more of a trigger than others, but I definitely have a friend, who if she feels we are not giving her a generous assumption, it is very hurtful because she knows she’s coming from a place with a big heart trying to solve something.
And so if someone makes a judgment about her, thinking that she’s not coming from that place, it’s really hurtful and it derails. And this trust that we talked about a few weeks ago, it really derails that. So when we can come to someone assuming positive intent, they feel that energy, they feel that connection.
They feel understood and see we are trying, and that we’re trying to have a conversation and we want to help them get regulated and feel better to move through this upset. And so I think for me, assuming positive intent is just, it’s a reminder. It slows me down, it connects me with the person I want to be, which is to show up with compassion for the people in my life.
And so I think it’s another one that I just wanted us to highlight today.
ERIKA: It’s a huge one for me and a challenging one for me. What happens in my life is, maybe Josh will make a meal that has something that I said I don’t like. And then rather than assume positive intent, which is that he’s trying to make a good meal for everyone.
I assume, I write a story that he doesn’t care about me, he wants to serve things I don’t like. I mean, this is when I’m at my low points. So assuming positive intent to me is, it’s not about me. I need to tell people what’s going on for me. People can’t read your mind. That part to me works right into assuming positive intent. So if I haven’t shared that something’s bothering me and someone does it. It’s not because they’re trying to hurt me, it’s because they can’t read my mind. And so assuming positive intent is a way to avoid getting defensive.
And so then that’s the path towards then being able to validate and have more productive conversations. I used to bristle at the idea of it’s not about me because I feel like I just want it to be about me, and why wouldn’t it be about me? Why wouldn’t he know everything about what I like and what I need and be able to read my mind and be able to predict what would be good for me?
This is major work for me to do in relationship, and it just helps so much. If I can think, okay, that’s a different person, not inside of my mind, another person who’s doing the absolute best that he can at all times. And assuming that what he’s doing is, is either trying to help himself feel better, trying to help the family, or just making the decisions that he thinks are the best in the moment. Then I can open up communication rather than shutting down, assuming the worst and getting really worried about everything in that way. So yeah, assuming positive intent is a bit of a growth area for me.
I also want to mention a funny validation story, which is that I was talking to Anna one day and she was giving examples of how she had validated someone else and I was like, oh, I just feel so much better, me in that moment. Just hearing the words of validation, you have so much going on. This has been so hard. Just those things where it really feels like someone is seeing and hearing you. It helps so much to bring people’s anxiety, energy, all of that down. So anyway, I thought it was really funny that you don’t even really have to be directly validated to just have that type of language just to feel so good.
PAM: Yeah, being in that energy really helps the ground. So many things are weaving together. I think we can get caught up in looking for perfection. I remember at my lower points, just watching to see what they would do. The whole reading your mind thing, right? Well, they should know me well enough and I can just count all the things that they did wrong, that they should know that I don’t like that. Just making that bit all about me, but not sharing the expectation that I said this once, three months ago when we were out at a party. Where would this random piece of information about me go in their brain to stay there that now it would pop right back up. Anyway, that was interesting. Thanks for that little trip down memory lane.
But the really important piece I think of assuming positive intent is something you mentioned, Anna. In this moment, they’re doing their best in this moment because assuming positive intent doesn’t mean ignoring what actually happened and just assuming that it was meant positively and perfectly and lovingly. No, it’s what’s happening in this moment and that’s giving us information. Maybe last week when a very similar moment happened they reacted or responded beautifully, or their choice in that moment felt perfect to me. And then why this week are they making a different choice that is knocking me for a loop that I’m not happy with, et cetera. That doesn’t mean assuming positive intent doesn’t mean ignoring those people, those moments, right?
Having that expectation that once they’ve managed to do it the right way, that makes me feel good, so we don’t have a disagreement and from now on they’ll be able to do that thing. But because it is in the moment, it is so important to recognize maybe their capacity is down, maybe other things are bothering them.
That’s why we talk about context so much. So when they’re doing something differently than maybe before, that’s causing us to get our back up. It could just be something completely different. Right? So I found being able to assume that positive intent, even if their initial motivation in that moment wasn’t particularly positive, maybe they were trying to get a rise out of us or whatever, but that is so much more about them and something else that’s going on.
I don’t need to take the bait, so to speak. I can still assume positive intent, meaning that they’re doing the best they can in this moment. So the question becomes more, what is different about this moment? Is something up? Are you worried about something? That can be the direction that the conversation goes versus just the defensiveness. And why did you say that? Or why did you do that? Or, I don’t like peppers or whatever it is. Take the context. It’s not faking it or telling ourselves some erroneous story when we assume positive intent, even if maybe that’s not what they’re bringing because there’s a reason for whatever they’re bringing.
ANNA: I love that because, again, it’s not making it about us, it’s bringing that compassion to the moment. I think we can turn it around because sometimes that’s helpful for people. It’s helpful for me to go, okay, I’ve been dysregulated and I’ve said some pretty yucky things to people that I love and how different it is to be met with, Hey, are you okay? Or do you need something versus, don’t talk to me that way? Or, why are you being like this? Or you’re this terrible person? We are trying to do the best we can and when we’re dysregulated and under-resourced, it can come out in a harsh way. And so, I just want to be able to offer compassion especially with this person that we love and are sharing our life with because it moves us through things faster. Like we get back to our connection point, which is where we both feel safer and more comfortable.
And so it just leads us there, which I love. And now if you’re talking about a pattern of this that goes on for longer then looking at the context of what’s happening, there’s something else. But so often these are kind of isolated events when we get upset.
The next one I want to talk about is no set outcome. And we talk about this a lot when we’re talking about solving things with the whole family. Like when we’re talking about how we find solutions to things when we have people with these different needs.
But I think it really comes into play here because if we’re going into this disagreement thinking, okay, this has to be the solution for us, or we have failed and they’re thinking this has to be the solution or it’s not okay. It’s very hard to get anywhere with that. And this is again, about getting to those underlying needs because we can have this disagreement about bedtime or whatever it is. If we get to the underlying needs, we can often find that wiggle room for solutions.
Interestingly, I have found, even if both parties aren’t in agreement with this, it helps me not to come with an agenda, because even just that calms the energy a little bit. They don’t feel like they have to defend their position as harshly, like you said, Pam, like, how many ways can I say the same thing to defend my position, even if they’re not bought into this concept, but we are talking about someone you love. This is actually a conversation we can have. Hey, we’re going to figure this out. I want to hear everything you’re saying. And this is something we do with our kids too. This is feeling hard right now. I don’t know exactly how we’re going to get through it, but let’s just put all the options on the table because the big piece here is there’s no one right way.
So when we understand that we can, it’s easier to let go of that set outcome or this agenda that we’re moving towards. And when we put it in the context of unschooling, I think it can be interesting because, especially if we have one partner that’s like researching and diving in and listening to all the podcasts and doing all the things.
You get excited, right? You’re excited about all these pieces and you know how it’s going to work, and you know what the best unschooling way to be is. And you can imagine if you step back for a minute, how disorienting that can be to a partner that is not aware of all of these things that are happening and maybe is just getting little bits or pieces and it can actually feel super disconnecting because sometimes, people make dramatic changes as they’re going down this path.
And so the partner’s thinking, we were on the same page here and now suddenly something’s changed. And so when we can let go of that one right way to just to share that this is the piece that excites me. This is the piece that’s really connecting for me that I see with our kids, or that I see in our life.
Then you’re having a conversation versus a bulleted list of what we should do, and then they’re giving a bulleted list of what we should do. That’s the complete opposite. We’re losing that kind of interplay and the connection that probably brought you together however many years ago.
I think it’s just really important to watch for an agenda. Watch for thinking that there’s a set outcome of convincing, because as you said, Pam, we kind of tunnel in on how do we convince and we miss a lot of information about our partner, but also about the context of the situation and our individual lives. Because as you and I, all of us say so many times, there’s no one unschooling family.
There’s no list of unschooling rules. We did a whole podcast series that there’s not and so I think that piece can really help with these disagreements, especially if they’re around some of these parenting pieces or unschooling pieces, It can just stop that charged energy. Just really bring the energy back to, how do we solve this for our family?
Let’s figure out something that feels good to all of us.
ERIKA: When you first come to new ideas though, that excitement is really hard to contain. It’s hard to not just want to convince everyone in the world, like, come on, I just found the answer. Let’s do it. It’s challenging and so to me, no set outcome requires a pause in my own mind and thinking. I need to remind myself there’s not just one way. It’s going to be okay, however it works out. And being open and curious, that’s it. But it is hard. I feel it being challenging in my mind because I will get really pumped up about an idea. I will want to convince, I will want to share how amazing it is. And if I don’t get a response that they immediately see it, it is amazing and let’s do it, Then it can be really hard to move through.
And so, it’s internal work and practices of calming myself to say there’s space for different ideas. There’s not one right way. Even if we disagree, we can move through this. That if he has different ideas than me, that doesn’t mean that my ideas are wrong, but it just means there’s more communication that needs to happen.
So, I really value the idea of no set outcomes, but find it challenging at times.
PAM: Yes. So very challenging. I think for me, part of the work when I’m moving to that, just bubbled up while you were talking, Erika. When it’s that energy that we were feeling, this is so exciting, let’s do this.
I want to talk myself through this probably isn’t the only way to get that energy. What I want is that excitement and that energy and that direction, but like to keep that at the forefront versus the plan, the one plan I came up with to get there. To recognize that there are so many ways and plans and that’s the whole thing. Not holding out that agenda, that set outcome or to me it’s that set path. To get there. When I can be more open to the possibilities. Again, like you’re saying, it doesn’t mean giving in or giving up or, or any of those, common ways to describe it.
But what that does is help, and you talked about this earlier, Anna, is just peeling back those layers to find and meet them where they are. Where is our common ground? Let’s find that common ground first. And then from there we can each feel the next step.
And then, from that common ground, we can so often take baby steps. Steps that make sense to both of us. It’s like, okay, so I see that mountain over there and that’s the direction I want to go. But maybe we’ll like to take this little jog in the path for a little while and jog and jog if we can stay in that common ground and then the baby step, and then see what comes from the baby step.
Maybe then we’re each learning and experiencing pieces and then the next baby step makes sense and the next baby step and then you can look up and say, oh yeah, we’re getting there. We took three steps and we’re a step closer but they’re feeling the same way.
Even if their mountain’s over here and yours is over here, we’re taking baby steps together and coming to a place and we’re both understanding each other a little bit better and a little bit better, because it doesn’t mean that we have to come up with the path and the answer to this maybe huge life changing, decision, choice, disagreement, whatever it is.
We can take baby steps and check in, and we may find that we were just using different words and internally we were a lot closer than we imagined. But especially when you’re stuck in that defensiveness, you feel like you have to go to the opposite because you need more power.
So I need to be so strong to get you to come my way. But maybe I really didn’t need to hold to that so tightly. This little bit. I can do that a little bit. Baby steps kind of became my mantra with my partner.
Okay, well what’s the next baby step that makes sense to both of us, and then see where we are.
ANNA: Oh, I love that. And I’m going to take your little metaphor a bit further. So you’re walking towards your mountain and they’re walking towards their mountain. I love the baby steps, but I think what happens is you make a new mountain in the middle that serves your unique family and then you really are walking towards the same place. It’s not exactly what you thought because maybe you were in this mindset of this is what unschooling looks like, or whatever the thing is, and this is what parenting looks like to them.
But we found something that fits for our unique children, for our unique relationship, and that’s really beautiful. That is just that process of slowing that down. It’s so worth it because this is our life. These are the people that we’re spending our lives with. That is ultimately going to be what defines our life is our relationships and how we are moving through all of these different pieces.
So I really, really love that. I feel like these three things that we went over really give everybody a very big head start into how you could change that dynamic with a discussion that’s maybe feeling charged.
Or even if you’re feeling attacked at first about something, you can see, okay, I can breathe through this. We can figure this piece out and bring that different energy to it. And so, do we want to do like one through a quick example or what do you think?
ERIKA: Well, I had a couple parts of this that I don’t think we’ve mentioned yet and we could do an example of something that comes up. Disagreements can feel huge, something like a major difference in parenting style or it could be something small like the dining room table has a craft project on it. It’s bothering the other person. Little things that can blow up or big things that can blow up.
One thing that I feel like might be the biggest shift to make is to switch from saying you always, or you did two, “I” messages and Anna, you remind everyone about this all the time, but “I” messages are so valuable in these relationships with our partners because as soon as someone says you left this stuff on the table. Why do you always do that? Immediately the other person’s defenses are up. Immediately. You can’t help it. If somebody says you something, it’s going to raise those defenses. And so saying, I am feeling so overwhelmed today, I really could use a clean dining room table to serve dinner helps so much. Your partner can hear that and it’s not going to cause that same defensiveness as, why do you always leave stuff on the table? These are little things, but they can cause days long arguments, just based on that kind of communication style.
PAM: Yes, that is huge. I love that. And that’s such a lovely thing to bring to the whole process, right? I love the distinction you made there between the little everyday things because those can build and build into big, explosive moments. And that’s kind of where we fall into patterns. Because we bumped into it today and we bump into it three days from now and we bump into it at the end of the week. It’s like, oh, you always do X, Y, Z. Right? And that explodes out. But as we talked about a lot with the narration and the I messages, then it’s something about us, and then they don’t immediately feel judged and the need to defend themselves.
They can be like, oh, okay, they’re feeling this. and I wonder where that’s coming from. They can do their own processing to recognize because I always go back to context, but the context for them may be that they had a project out and then some emergency came up and then they got really busy for a couple of days.
So, two or three of our experiences of that are part of the bigger context of something that’s going on for them. It’s not, I’m going to leave this on the table just to piss them off. Very rarely is the choice actually motivated by just to piss them off.
ANNA: That’s our assuming positive intent, they’re not doing it to upset us.
PAM: See, it all comes together so critically. I love how these tools apply no matter the situation, whether it’s a typical one like screens, food, bedtime, and the whole kind of parenting paradigm shift that comes with moving to unschooling and embracing unschooling. To just the little everyday moments of the shoes at the front door and the stuff on the table and all the little pieces.
To be able to take these tools of validation and assuming positive intent in the moment and not having a set outcome. Maybe the outcome in that moment is, let’s have a picnic on the floor because I really need to finish this thing and I’ll be able to do it tomorrow.
But it would be amazing if we could just leave it here on the table for now. I’m not giving in when I choose, let’s like have a picnic. Let’s make the best of this moment. Because that can be fun too, so that we’re not doing it begrudgingly. We’re not doing it with this energy of, you owe me that.
We’re just embracing something different and it wasn’t what our choice was at the beginning, but as we learn more, because we’ve gone through the process of having that little discussion, we can come up with something that seems fun for everybody too.
ANNA: And I mean I’m all about intentional language and so I do think those “I” messages can help.
And again, this works even if you don’t have somebody that understands and uses those same tools because when they come at you with the “you are” message. Then we can recognize that it’s about their dysregulation. That’s where their head is at this moment. They’re feeling really upset about the table, or they’re feeling really defensive that we’re trying to take their project down thinking we’re in the right because we need a clean table.
You know? That’s where if we can use these tools to just assume positive intent, wow. What they said at us was really intense. That’s about them. How can we move forward with curiosity and with validation to maybe bring that energy down?
Because then I think once you bring that energy down, then they’re able to say, I just haven’t had time to finish it. I have had so many things back to back. And then we get more context, then we get more understanding about why it’s there. But again, as soon as we go to defense mode it derails. Ideally we’re talking about this as a family, how to use “I” messages and how to own our pieces of what’s happening because of the things on the table or because of when dinner is or because of what bedtime looks like or any of those pieces.
And so, just think of any example in your head and walk through the same process, whether it’s a little or big, and you’ll see that it can change the energy and you’ll learn so much more about your partner and your kids and so much more about yourself because you’ll be articulating why something’s important to you and you’re having a conversation that looks a little bit different than just making assumptions about it.
PAM: Yeah. I gotta say, one thing that really bubbled up for me. There is that understanding of somebody else and their triggers that can help us nip disagreements in the bud before they even bubble up. Because we can understand the things that are triggers or stressful for them, and we can, when we’re using up the table and we know, we can already narrate that to put them at ease before it starts to bother them to the point where they’re going to need to explode into a disagreement of sorts or like bring that negative energy to it, because then they can see, right? Oh yeah, they’re doing it for this reason. It’s not to piss me off or they have a need for this, et cetera.
And we can do that “I” messaging narrating along the way beforehand too because as we learn more about each other, well this’ll be an important thing to mention to somebody ahead of time, maybe before they see it or as they’re seeing it or something like that. We can even just be sharing our lives together in ways that the “I” messages can help them feel seen and heard.
ERIKA: Right. I love that.
Okay, what about if you have a dysregulated partner and they just come into the room like, things need to change around here. We need to do more things as a family. Why are they always on their screens, et cetera.
What is the first step of validating that person to lower this energy?
ANNA: I think I would just start with, Oh my gosh. Tell me more. What’s happening? I can see that you’re just so upset about it. Has something specific happened? And maybe they’ll be like, no, it’s just everything.
It’s just been all week. All I’ve seen is this and blah, blah, blah. And just say, that sounds so hard. And I miss you, and tell me more. It’s been a really tough week. Maybe we can give some context too, because sometimes that can help. Like I know how hard you’ve been working this week.
I know that the lawnmower broke and then we had this water leak, and I know these things have been happening, and it has felt like we’ve been super disconnected as a family. We can validate that piece. Pull out that piece that they’re wanting the family to get together, they’re feeling disconnected because so often these kinds of things are coming from a feeling of being disconnected and so we can really validate. You’re just feeling really disconnected from us and I mean, gosh, we haven’t seen you all week, or whatever it is.
But you’ll see just the slight change in energy because we’re not fighting them on it. We’re not saying, well, where have you been? Or what have you been doing? Whatever it is. So I think that’s where I start, tell me more. I want to understand. That sounds really hard.
I know we haven’t seen you much or we’re feeling disconnected, or I would love for us to do more things as a family. Because even that, so even we can say, I would love for us to do more things as a family, doesn’t mean we’re going to be turning off all the computers, or we’re going to never do whatever the things that are being stated.
I would always love for us to do more things as a family, find that little piece that’s a yes, and then I think we can get to the solution of that later. We have to bring the energy down so that we can be creative in that moment. PAM: And I find too, especially when they’re coming with the messages about the family, it’s so often about disconnection or they’re not feeling part of the family, they’re feeling disconnected in some way.
So, yes, validating that piece and something that I found to be really useful. What does the day look like? For you, what would a great day look like for you? Like a great moment. And that helps them feel seen and heard when you’re open to hearing, because we were talking about it.
Getting to the root, peeling back the layers, finding the common ground. Because like you said, I love hanging out together and spending time together. And when I can ask questions with curiosity and love to let them explain how they’re seeing things. That’s a common ground.
And then one, the energy is clearer and we feel connected in that moment. Like you said, it doesn’t mean that we have to stop everything else that we’re doing. I just want to be able to hang out with, with child A, B, C, whatever, and, and do things together.
But then that’s when you can start to facilitate. Maybe it’s a board game, because then we can bring our experience as to the things that we already know they do enjoy together. Maybe there is a show or a movie that they enjoy, because when they start to express what connection looks like or feels like to them, then they have opened themselves up too.
Because so often the answer to that is not something specific like at eight o’clock, I want them to come out and ride a bike with me, and then when we get back, we’re going to go get our gloves and we’re going to throw a ball. It’s more like I just want to do stuff with them, right? I want them to enjoy the stuff that we do together. I don’t want to feel like they’re trying to get it done and get away from me. Like those pieces. So that’s where you can move to conversations about what do you guys like doing together? And they can realize the screens don’t become part of the conversation at that point. It’s about connecting, right? Then it can come up there is this show that you guys love, or this YouTube channel or this video game. And then that helps them and you can help them find a way. But the thing is, what you can help them with is recognizing that they do want something that both people enjoy doing. It doesn’t have to look like just their vision. I wish I had a child that loved to go ride bikes with me. We can validate, I know you love doing that. You know you’re a happy person and then you find the things that you enjoy doing with this child and with this child.
If we were feeling a little disconnected, having a pizza night and Mario party where we all came together. It wasn’t about the video game, it was about the connection, about hanging around together.
And the frustration doesn’t need to be part of the conversation per se. It’s not like, no screens forever. You get to the root for them. They want to connect. When we’re frustrated, the always and the nevers come up. The clues when you hear those kinds of words. Okay, let’s just not, we’re not even having that actual conversation right now. We’re validating, we’re peeling back, we’re getting down to what is the root of that always and never. And when they can feel seen and heard around that, then they can be more open to all the possibilities of meeting it and those always and nevers may well be beautiful maybes.
ERIKA: Right. And getting to the needs underneath. It’s just this conversation journey to go on together. But I feel that first step is not making their feelings wrong, not making their emotions wrong. Because when people come into a conversation with that kind of energy, they’re expecting a fight. That’s kind of what they’re coming in for and so if we don’t fight back, if instead you say, It makes sense that you’re upset. It makes sense that you’re feeling disconnected. Your feelings are valid and let’s talk about what’s going on for you.
I think in many cases, people coming in with that energy would appreciate just being able to talk about how overwhelming things are for them in general at that time. Just tell me about what’s stressing you out, because I can tell that something’s going on.
Just the power of that, of us not getting our defenses up and just being able to validate and say that it’s okay. It’s okay to be upset about things. It’s okay to feel disconnected. Figuring out those underlying needs and how to meet them all together with kids and connection. If you really can get to that, I’m just feeling disconnected, then that opens things up.There’s a million ways that we could figure out that problem.
And if you’re willing to do things with the kids that they like to do, you’re going to get that connection back. And so if we have the vision that they never want to do this thing I want to do with them. If I have that conversation and realize. What I really want is to feel connected. I really want to have fun with them.
Then maybe I could go, okay, it’s a little disappointing that they are not into this thing that I’m into, but what if I can try out what they’re interested in and then we can connect in a way that feels really good to them and you. Then you build that relationship and add up those good experiences together.
PAM: Yeah. I was helping them sort their priorities. Like, you love this thing. And you want to connect with your kids. Those can be two separate things. Like I said, you can go off and go mountain biking or whatever it is that you love to do and you can connect.
If connecting with your kids is the priority, find something that you both enjoy doing together. You don’t need to lump them together or kill two birds with one stone, whatever metaphor you want to use. They don’t have to go together so that you can efficiently do the thing you love and connect with your child. I mean, yes, there is some disappointment and we have this vision.
We wish we all love doing these things and we could all do this together. But yeah, that’s our personal journey and that’s what we can help them tease apart, when we get to how we meet our needs.
ANNA: Okay a few things. So then that reminded me. I think the paradigm shift is instead of we’re a family doing all the things, we’re an outdoor family, we’re a musical family.
What if the culture of the family is, we are a family that supports each other in doing the things that we love, because that actually feels good. I think so often with adults that have maybe not been heard when they were younger. They kind of want to be, this is my time, we’re going to do the things I want to do.
But it’s like, oh my gosh, we can all do the things that we want to do and we can support each other and feel connected in that. So I think that’s kind of an interesting paradigm shift. But what I wanted to say before that was just a quick reminder. Because we talk about this with kids, it’s the big language piece.
So when they come at you with that big language, everything’s going to hell in a hand basket. This is the worst. They’re this. They’re never going to do anything. They’re never going to amount to anything. Oh my goodness, recognize that it is just big language for the emotions inside. And like you said, probably so much about the overwhelm they’re experiencing from something going on in their life.
Maybe there’s other things in all of our lives or in the family’s life that’s really feeling hard. Just like with the kids, just let that big language slide over and go, wow, this person is upset. And I want to understand. And when we can change that to just not focus on the words.
because that’s kind of what you were saying too, Pam, that reminded me, when we focus on the words, we actually aren’t getting at what the needs are necessarily because taking the iPads isn’t going to connect them. So if the need is connection, we’ve actually focused on the words and probably made it worse.
And so just letting the words slide over to really hear and validate and bring that energy down gets us to that underlying need.
PAM: I love that. Right. So yes, it’s beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us. We hope that you enjoyed our conversation, our longer conversation this week, and maybe even picked up a nugget or two for navigating disagreements with your partner and generally with anyone in your life that you love.
If you would like to dive deeper, we do have a course called Navigating Conflict, which is designed to help you gain a better understanding of how our personalities, our life experiences, and how we’re feeling in the moment can contribute significantly to the ways in which conflicts arise and unfold.
It includes six lessons, each of which includes exercises to help you more deeply process the topic and what it looks like for you, because all together now we are all different people. We encourage you to spend time with these exercises so that you can move beyond the intellectual understanding of these tools, the tools that we talked about, and get a feel for what they look like for you in practice.
To pick up our Navigating Conflict course, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on courses in the menu. Wishing everyone a wonderful day. Thanks, Anna. Thanks, Erika. Take care!
EU372: Building Trust with Our Kids
Oct 10, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about building trust with our children. We regularly mention trust on the podcast, as we’ve found that trust is the foundation of the strong relationships that help unschooling thrive.
We had a lot of fun talking about ways to build trust in and with our children. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hello everyone! I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I am joined by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both.
Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey, and you can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.
Today we’re going to be talking about how to build trust with our kids. It’s such a critical part of the process. That foundation of trust helps us navigate all that life throws at us, keeping our connection at the forefront. So, I’m excited about this one. Erika, would you like to get us started?
ERIKA: I would. I really love this topic, because trust is something that comes up so often in the podcast conversations, in Network conversations. It’s a big part of what makes unschooling, in quotes, “work”. And it’s a big part of what we mean when we talk about strong relationships that we’re cultivating with our kids.
And trust is really a two part thing. It’s my kids trusting me. I want my kids to trust me, to know that I’ll follow through with what I say and that I will listen to them when they tell me about who they are. But it’s also me trusting my kids. I want to trust that they know what works best for them, that they are on their own path.
And so trust is going in both directions and for me it’s such an important focus to build trust and to avoid doing things that would undermine trust. I know we have a lot of different aspects of building trust that we will dive into. But what came to mind first to me was one of the tricky parts about it, which is that you can’t just say, “Trust me,” to your kids, and then they’ll trust you.
Trust is really something that builds over time and it takes patience and it’s more about our actions than it is about our words, which can be difficult. It takes more intention. And it’s something that comes as a feeling from within the other person, in this case, our kids, and we don’t have any control over whether they’re feeling that or not.
So, we can’t rush the process. It just takes the time that it takes. I think if there’s been a history of us pushing through their consent or a history of my child not feeling heard or seen by me, then trust could take even a longer time to build. I think that each step we’re taking, each intentional trust building step that we’re taking, along that path to being a more trustworthy parent, to being more trusting of them just adds, it’s building that relationship, building strength into the relationship. And that trust will just grow from there, one interaction to the next.
PAM: That was a huge one for me, understanding that trust is something that I build through my actions. I think that’s something that can trip us up, especially in the beginning when you realize, oh maybe my child doesn’t trust me.
They’re not doing X, Y, Z, or acting like they trust me. And that can feel like, oh no. Oh no. But the shift to, okay, I want to be a person that my child trusts, what does that look like? How can I actually do those things? I don’t literally need to go up to them and say, do you trust me? That would be a weird question to ask yet.
It’s one of those things where it’s through my actions and through their actions. That’s how we’re communicating about trust. Versus the actual meta conversations about it. The fascinating thing is the timetable, right? It’s not our timetable to control, even though that’s what we’re trying, we’re trying to build trust with them.
We want them to trust us. And we can even talk about why, when it comes to life, you want someone to trust you so that they will come to you when they need help. They won’t try to figure things out on their own. But same with learning, right? When you first come to unschooling, looking about learning that strong and trusting relationship is so valuable for learning too.
Because they’ll come, they’ll feel more comfortable coming to you with the questions. Instead of worrying that maybe this is a dumb question or worrying about being judged. Thinking that, my mom won’t like that. I’m interested in this thing, so I need to hide that.
When you want a more engaged and open relationship, trust is an important part of it, and to take the timetable out of it entirely. And Anna, you say, be the parent that I want to be now and, and I want to be a parent who’s trusted by my child and my partner. So that’s how this person acts. You don’t wait till they trust you.
And once you trust me, then I’m going to be a trustworthy person. No, it goes the other way. I need to be that trustworthy person upfront and eventually, on their timetable, they will come to trust us as much as they will. And it’s so interesting to see, that’s your feedback from them.
If you see them hiding things more and you feel it’s more out of a worry about your reactions, then you can be a little more cognizant of your reactions. Try to take that little beat and instead of reacting more, give myself a couple choices in this moment rather than just react.
Maybe my instincts are something that I’m trying to move through a little bit.
ANNA: A couple things that came to mind from what you all said. There’s two things I’m hoping I’m going to remember, but one is. I think we can also be paralyzed by this piece of, it’s going to take time and what do we do?
Or there’s been a problem. And so I think it’s really important to let it sink in that this is not about being perfect. This is not about never making mistakes, that it really is about showing up for the repair. Because that builds trust too. When there’s a problem they know I’m going to come back.
They know I’m going to come back and figure out, how do I repair it? And it really creates a climate where they can do the same, because there’s going to be times when they impact our trust in them, but then we know we can make the repair. And so as much as it’s about building trust, it’s about learning how to make a repair too.
And so I think that can lighten some of the panic about, how do I always be perfect with my words? How do I always follow through perfectly? How do I always do this? Let go of that and instead think, how do I just stay connected? You know? How do I make a repair? How do I recognize it? And I love what you just said too there, Pam, about that little barometer, like you’re going to get messages about not trusting, just like I’m sure you can think of other relationships that you’re in where you give messages to someone that you don’t trust them. We can think about how we are in relationships that maybe we feel trusted or maybe we don’t, and kind of recognize how that looks.
The other thing that came up from what you were saying, Pam, that I think is absolutely critical is letting go of judgment. I think our culture is very quick to judge things. It’s kind of a shortcut, right? Like, oh, that’s good, this is bad. That’s this, this is that. And so we make this snap judgment, and I think it’s so important to take that beat, like you said, to just be curious about what they’re bringing to us, because nothing’s happening in that exact moment when they’re bringing us something that maybe feels a little scary or feels like it’s not a good idea.
Let’s be curious. Let’s lean in, let go of that judgment because you’re so right, Pam. And that piece alone, I think does the most damage because they won’t come to us. They won’t come to us if they think, she isn’t going to like it or, I’m going to get judged about it, or they feel like, she’s not going to like me.
Because when we start judging what they’re doing, and maybe this is getting a little off track, but I think it’s related. When we judge, even if they’re watching YouTube or they’re doing something that maybe we don’t understand or like, when we are judging, really and truly kids are taking that in as you’re judging me, you don’t like me. Because I like this thing and you don’t like me.
And so. Really working. And I mean, it was work for me too, to just let go of that judgment and just really have that open and curious mindset. It makes such a difference when we’re doing this kind of cultivating and building trust.
ERIKA: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And here’s so many places where I think when kids are young Maybe we get into a routine of just making decisions for them. And so I think it can, over time, build a culture of, they don’t hear me.
I think it is important, just as the child gets older and starts being more aware of having opinions about these things. Realizing, I’m different. I have my own interests, I have my own things I want to do. As your child is growing and as you’re trying to build trust with them, things like being honest with them about what’s really happening. Giving them the whole picture rather than trying to just convince them to go on an outing, really giving them the whole picture of this is what it’s going to be like, this is what’s going to be expected of you, and those kind of of things.
I feel like those are the things that really build trust. Where it’s like, okay, I trust that my parent is going to be honest with me and tell me what’s really going on. And I think for a lot of kids in mainstream parenting, that is not a priority.
Giving kids the truth, giving them the whole picture, that kind of thing. Allowing space for their experience to be true for them and not judging how they’re feeling about things. That builds trust. I can come to you and tell you that I don’t like this, and you’re not going to say, yes you do. You always have. Everyone likes this and just blow off their opinions about things. I think a little signal for me sometimes that I am not being trustworthy, is if my kids say, you didn’t tell me that was going to happen. Why didn’t you tell me that was coming up? Why didn’t you tell me we were doing that today?
Life gets busy. Sometimes I forget to communicate everything but that communication and really including our kids in what’s going on in their own lives. I feel like that is part of trust building, helping them feel prepared for things, not blindsided by things.
Being there when you say that you’re going to be there, following through if you say, I can’t do it now, but I’ll do it later, and then following through on that. Those are little things that make a huge difference in building trust and making sure that they feel like they’re a priority in your life too.
And then when you’re trusting in them, that builds their trust in you too. So, I love how all of these actions and these intentional ways that we can relate to our kids, build on each other to create that stronger relationship.
PAM: Yeah. Oh, I love all those, the little list.
Because I think that was really helpful, for me anyway. Was thinking about what actions can help as I built trust. And that was a great list there. And one of the things, and I’m going to pull it out because I think you mentioned it, Erika, but it’s the being responsive piece of it.
To trust that we will help them in the moment, to be consistently available. This is not something that, okay, I’m going to drop everything and, and off we go. As they get older, they’re doing more things on their own.
They need our help less often, but when they need it being responsive in the moment is really helpful. But also as you mentioned, it doesn’t mean dropping everything. There’s context, there’s our lives going on around us. So even if I can help you in 10 minutes. But it’s showing up 10 minutes later, or learning not to say 10 minutes to say when I finish the thing, because I always underestimate how long it will take to do something.
So that’s part of knowing ourselves, right? As we’re talking with them and figuring things out. But that openness is so useful too, because then, even in that sentence, oh, I’m, I am right in the middle of doing this. As soon as I’m done, I think it’ll be 10 minutes. I’ll come and check in and watch what you wanted to share, or we’ll go do this thing, whatever it is that they’re coming and wanting.
Because right in that moment, in that 15 seconds, they recognize that our delay is about the thing that we’re doing. It’s not about me trying to put off. Because I don’t like what they’re asking for.
And like you said, Anna, they will take that personally. If they don’t like this thing that I like, then they don’t like me, is so often the message that they’re absorbing from it. So, taking that 15, 20 seconds to just explain what’s up for us and then following through. Because like you both said, that’s where the trust is built, right? Trust doesn’t mean immediate reaction. Sometimes it does, but trust is like that.
They can trust that what we say, we will follow through on that we mean it, right? And that builds trust. When they recognize, oh, this is about them, not about me. Then they don’t take that weight with them and ruminate for 10 minutes until we manage to show up. All those little pieces are so valuable.
But yeah, it’s not about us being perfect, you know? It’s not about us being immediately responsive. Trust is so much bigger than that, I feel. And when we can understand ourselves that little bit, as well as how they might see it, seeing the moment through their eyes. Like if they come running in super excited and I’m like, oh, 10 minutes, and they’re like, no, it’s happening right now, then yes, I’m going to make that choice.
For the most part, unless I’m in the middle of an emergency, I’m going to make that choice because now I’ve got a little bit more information that tells me the priority of it, right? And I can shift. It’s not me giving in. It’s not me making a mistake in any way. If it goes sideways, we can repair. That’s, like you said, where the trust is actually built.
ANNA: What you’re describing, that narration, I think is so important because when we’re able to just say a little bit more about the steps there, it also helps them have freedom to have more steps. And so it even can be a question like when that comes up, hey, will 10 minutes work?
I’m trying to finish this. Tell me what’s happening, get a little bit more information and have a little bit more of a conversation. And then, like you said, they’ll see. Oh, this is not about her not wanting to do this. It’s about something that she’s trying to finish. But I will say a piece of that too, like just part of my journey, it was really to pause, because I can get focused on what I’m doing in the moment.
It’s a little bit hard to pull myself out. Really, I did a lot of work to be available when they’re coming, especially teenagers. We’ve talked about this before, Pam. Like, when a teenager comes in front of you, I’m just like, drop it. If it’s not an emergency call or something, I’m just drop it and want to be present.
Because what I’ve seen with teenagers is they tend, if they don’t get the response, they just tend to go back off and you’ve missed the opportunity, you know? And so part of building trust is that piece of being available. It’s not about, like you said, I’m throwing away and not thinking about my life.
It really is about priorities and for me, in those moments, my priority was being there for that person in my life, and especially teens I feel like, but really all kids. I feel like teens are going through such a hard time. There are so many things going on with them and it can feel so hard at times.
And so, I think it just felt really reassuring to know I could show up for that and make that a priority. So, I think that piece is important, but that narration of just what’s happening in my head for them is that little bit of a step that lets them know, oh, this isn’t about me.
She’s doing something and then showing up, and then following through, and then sitting down and just really sinking into that moment with whatever they want to share, whether it’s upset or a funny game, or a cat meme or whatever the thing is. Because that’s that bid for connection too, right.
ERIKA: Just being able to be present for whatever they’re bringing, I feel like is a big part of trust with my kids. We’ve had moments in the past where maybe my son will say, I didn’t want to tell you about that because I know you don’t like that. Or I know you would have a reaction to it, and so I don’t want to talk about that.
And so for me, those are little things of like, okay, I need to control my reactions a little bit more, or I’m bringing too much of an emotional response when something comes up. And, so just being more intentional about giving space for whatever they’re going to bring.
It’s such a good feeling to be that person for them that they can come with anything. And so that is something that I focus on a lot and that feeling that they can tell me something privately, something important and sensitive and things they’re still just figuring out and that I can hold that.
And that just builds their trust in me. And the fact that I can it’s okay if they’re upset, it’s okay if they’re angry, it’s okay. I can hold all of those emotions. And so this is, as we always say, unschooling is our work to do this. Having them trust us is a lot our work to do.
Releasing and working through our triggers, grounding ourselves to the place where when they come with whatever they’re coming with, we can be there as this steady presence. I think what you’re talking about with the teen years, that’s just so huge for me with my kids right now who are 13 and 15, they really just need me to be able to be there when they need me, be there when they need to talk something out. Otherwise they’re just going to be thinking of it in their heads sitting in their rooms worrying about things. And so for our relationship, having them trust me with their most sensitive conversations is just so huge.
PAM: Exactly my experience too. And it just felt like the way you framed it as priorities, Anna, which came with kind of the shift in the timetable because when they’re younger, they’re like here all the time and you’re coming across them all the time. But then as teens, even if they’re not literally out and about with other things, they’re actively engaging on their own with other things so that when a time pops up in their day, week, or month where they’re coming to us. This is the opportunity, right? This is the time because there is less time when we can go and interrupt or just engage with them. So it’s less about our timetable and more about theirs. So that is how I easily made that the priority when they came because this is the opportunity right now.
This is when we can connect and engage and I can, for the most part, 95% of the time just rearrange that moment for myself.Whatever I’m into, I can, let that sit for a bit. To engage because my priority is that relationship and that connection. One other piece that I wanted to talk about a little bit was because this trust relationship I find so interesting and their trust in me, I found grew along or I was able to cultivate that better when I was also cultivating my trust in my kids. It’s a two way street. So it was for me, just quickly, one of the things that helped me cultivate my trust in them was just by getting to know them, right? Understanding their personality, their motivations, their goals, their interests.
I could understand them better and their choices. Once I understood them better, things didn’t feel like they were out of the blue so much. Right? This makes total sense for them. If I didn’t understand them, it would be like, oh my gosh that came right out of left field and I’d feel like I was being batted around.
Being open and approachable we were just talking about with teens, but really inviting our children to come to us whenever they want our help and making that a priority for ourselves. And because that’s how we get to know them better, right? That’s how we get to understand what their current motivations are, what their goals are, the things that they’re feeling challenged by or frustrated with.
And by giving them some space, like you talked about space a little bit earlier, Erika, just seeing their choices and how things play out as they explore and learn. If we jump in, even if we’re not telling them what to do, if we jump in with our suggestions, then those kind of end up being the suggestions on the plate.
But if we can give them that space. To come up with some suggestions on their own. Unless they’re literally coming to us and saying, Hey, I’m feeling stuck. What do you think? It’s not, oh no, you go figure that out on your own. But if we don’t jump in with things, we give them some more space and we see how they approach things.
We see some ideas that they come up with. We see how those unfold for them, and we are learning more about them. They’re learning more about themselves too. The beautiful thing, as I deepened my trust in them, I could really see the consistency of their choices and what made so much sense for them. I could see things better through their eyes than me putting myself in that situation. And if I was a kid, if I was 12 years old at this moment, this is what it would feel like. It’s very different for them. They’ve had a whole different life. They’ve had support and love and all that kind of stuff.
But anyway, ultimately what I wanted to get to is what happens is that trust as they get older, as they’re making choices in the future, even if I didn’t understand them in that moment, I could trust them more. Because it’s like, oh, when I know more, or when I see how it will make sense to me because the last few years have not been nothing but out of the blue experiences.
But if I see that time after time, I’ve understood their perspective and where their choices are coming from. In that moment, I can react with so much more trust when I don’t yet understand it, because I know that it will make sense.
Sometimes maybe their trust doesn’t even make sense to them in the moment, but for us to show up, trusting and open and having conversations with them, that will become clear for them too. Like my instinct is drawing me to this thing. I’m not quite sure why I’m going to like it. I can support that. And help them explore it and figure out why it’s calling to them.
For that, my trust in them, it really reflects back their trust in me at the same time. Right. I really feel like it’s a spiral.
ANNA: I want to kind of combine the two things that the two of you said, which is, I really think it’s so important to get to know them because I think one of the common stumbling blocks you see is that. We really do put ourselves with our childhood and who we were in those situations into their situations.
Whether it’s friends at the park, whether it’s some kind of an upset about something, whether it’s some kind of doing something, it is just always a recipe for disaster because they’ve had such a different life than we do, no matter what, even if you were unschooled, which is probably unlikely.
They’ve still had such a different life and so, that time that you’re talking about Pam, to just really get to know them and watch their choices and hear about them and not insert yourself or what your choice would be, and let that unfold is so critical because I think, again, we can bring this energy of, oh my gosh, if I were doing this or if this had happened to me, I would feel X or I would need this. And it really short circuits their process of understanding themselves and understanding the situation. And when I’ve talked to people about this, it really can calm them. They have different tools, they have a different experience, and then we can let that unfold.
What I love is that it’s fun to get to know them. Right? I mean, that’s kind of the fun part of this. Understanding we’re all so different. It really just helps kind of hammer that in. This thing that felt hard for me at 15, actually doesn’t feel hard to them and this thing that felt easy to me feels hard to them.
And so we can share that and talk about it and understand each other. I just think it’s a really beautiful part of it is getting to know who they are and that builds trust because they don’t think we’re trying to insert our way, because it makes no sense to them. Right? It makes no sense to them when we’re activated by something that isn’t activating them.
And so I think that this back and forth trust and that narration can help them understand, that’s about you and here’s what’s happening for me. So yeah, I loved that, that point.
ERIKA: Yeah. This is bringing up, there’s no one right way. Dropping the judgment.
It’s a long game. There’s plenty of time. Because I feel like sometimes in this parent position I can be like, oh no, they’re doing this. I better tell them that’s not good. I better try to make it so that it works out. But then that is just undermining their trust in themselves and undermining my trust in them.
And so, keeping in mind that everyone’s different. There’s not one right way to do things. This is a long game. There’s plenty of time for them to get where they’re going. It just slows everything down for me. I can listen to what they’re saying, look at what they’re doing without rushing to that judgment, giving myself time to get to know who they are.
I love that. Then our trust in them helps them have trust in themselves. It’s all growing trust, which is just amazing.
PAM: Yes. It’s a beautiful circle and I love all those little bits. Like those are why, those are little mantras that we often mention.
Even the group of them worked together so nicely to help bring down our own energy and something you said, let me see if I can remember, Erika, that we are trying to get things to work out perfectly for them. That was another big aha moment for me. It doesn’t mean I don’t try, if I recognize how I might be able to help set something up that will work, that I suspect might work better for them.
I do my best, but also to be able to, once I’ve done that, just release it to see how it unfolds and to not feel like things are going to go sideways. Things are going to go sideways. Like you were talking about Anna before with the repair piece.
There is nothing wrong. We haven’t failed when things go sideways. We will all learn little pieces. Maybe I’ll learn that. Gee, I tried and I set it up this way and oops, that actually knocked against what they were trying to accomplish because I kind of thought it was something different.
I kind of thought it was six months ago, child, and now it’s today’s child who has grown and changed and maybe more internally than I had yet recognized, and this was my moment when I recognize that they have grown beyond that, or they have shifted in what they’re interested in or what they’re trying to get out of this activity.
So we can do our best in the moment, which includes our capacity and all those pieces. And then it unfolds the way it unfolds, and we learn from that and we put that in our toolbox, and that comes with us next time, right? But we can get so caught up in trying to make things that work out perfectly and then feel bad.
If they don’t like it, it’s our responsibility. No, it’s life and things are going to go sideways. And if, if things often go sideways, it’s like, okay, I really have a few things that I am just trying to do repeatedly that are not working. If it’s happening often that’s a pattern and a clue for me to revisit my foundations, et cetera.
But expecting the pendulums to swing the other way and for me to always be on and get it right is an unrealistic expectation too.
ANNA: Right? And I think so much about that when we’re looking at their life. It’s making it about us. Maybe we’re uncomfortable with what they’re going through.
Maybe they’re saying things that, again, are bringing us back to that moment, or we’re projecting it out into the future. But as soon as we start that we’re making it about us and that harms trust because they don’t need to be carrying our weight from our teenagehood. They don’t need to be carrying some bizarre weight we have about being the perfect parent. And if we didn’t, if we were the perfect parent, that nothing would go sideways. That’s so much about us. And so I love that you said it earlier, Erika. It’s just like, this is our work to do. This is our work to do. And in doing that, again, I think our kids really sense that and see it, and I think all the people in our life do when we’re able to just let people experience their life, be there as a support, but not judging, not making it about us, not inserting ourselves in that narrative. I really like thinking about it in that way.
PAM: Love that.
ANNA: Yep. Well, this was fun and I think it was a really important conversation so thank you both and thanks for listening, and we hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you’d love the Living Joyfully Network. You can learn more about it at livingjoyfully.ca/network We’d love to see you there and look forward to seeing you on the next podcast. Thanks so much. Bye!
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about transitional ages and seasons.
While there is definitely not one path through childhood, there are common transitional ages where major changes typically occur. In this episode, we talk about some shifts that happen from the toddler to child years, big kid to preteens, teenage years, and moving into young adulthood. Brain development, body growth, and personality changes can sometimes leave us feeling like we’re meeting a whole new person! We talked about how our unschooling lives help support these transitional times, too, with unconditional love, curiosity, and strong relationships.
It was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ERIKA: Hello everyone! I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. And today, we’re diving into another unschooling stumbling block, which is transitional ages and seasons. And I’m really excited for this conversation.
But before we begin, I wanted to give a quick plug to the Living Joyfully Network, which has really been life-changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have amazing discussions about so many topics, since our community has such a wide variety of experiences. And I just love the community so much, because everyone there is really learning and growing and being so intentional with their families. And I think it can just be such a wonderful support, especially during this back-to-school season, when questions and fears sometimes come up.
And so, if you’d like to learn more about the Network and check it out for yourself, you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on the community tab. We also have a link in the show notes. And we would love to meet you! So, Pam, would you like to get us started?
PAM: Sure. I absolutely would. And yeah, I am really looking forward to diving into these transitional ages and seasons. Because in our experience, we have really seen it play out in many, many different unschooling families over the years that there are patterns of these transitional seasons or ages as our children just move through these different stages of their lives. And these can be challenging times for our child and for us as things change. Because change is a constant, but also a challenge, because we’re figuring new things out. And I just want to mention, it’s less about actual ages. We’re not going to say, at this age or at this age, what your child should be doing. But it’s more about when the particular child experiences the shift. And that these shifts are part of life. So, that’s why we really wanted to dive into them. And we thought we’d start with the transition from toddler to child.
And now, thinking back, it’s been a while now, but with younger kids, a lot of our time and effort is taken up with hands-on care, from changing diapers to making food, to managing toys and games, and keeping them occupied. And their learning is quite transparent. We see them exploring their environment. We see them learning how to use their toys. We see them learning how to eat, learning how to talk, walk, like all those pieces.
So, as they start to get a little bit older, they typically need less hands-on care. And it becomes more about supporting them as they pursue their curiosity and their interests. And while it can still be busy for us, because we’re shifting from keeping them alive to being more engaged in the activities that they want to do day to day, it can be a bit of a challenge for us to notice that, to start giving them that space to make some more choices that they might be interested in. So, in the past, we’ve been able to help them and it’s just flowed. And now they might be more resistant. And we may start to recognize that they may think or want to do things differently than us.
It’s just really fascinating. And it can be tricky for us also, because they are still so much in the moment. They want to play this thing, they want to do this thing. They are right there. And we need to spend a lot of time learning about each other and just finding our rhythms, because it’s less about us when we bring the food out. Now they can be more actively saying, I’m hungry now. Just all those little pieces. Or, I’m not tired. Now that they’re more verbal, they have more ways to express their feelings and their thoughts and so, we learn to step back a little bit and work with them and learn more about them. And it’s a really fun time, but definitely can be a transition.
ANNA: Right. And I think, with the younger kids, with babies and toddlers, I mean, it’s such an intense time. Because we’re tired and we’re maybe not getting much sleep. And it is a lot about just keeping this little human alive. And there’s so much joy there and so much delight. And this transition happens and our days look a little bit different and we can start to recognize that pushback. So, I love the way you said that. Because I think especially for those of us who are doing a lot of the caretaking of the children, we’re just so connected to those babies and toddlers in many ways. And it’s such a dependent relationship. And then you start to see that independence and agency asserting itself and they do look at the world a little bit differently.
And then we start seeing that people are different. And honestly, I believe even babies and toddlers will assert themselves, but it does have a different feel to it. When getting a little bit older, and I think for those of us who we’re talking about in an unschooling environment, when it becomes that more typical school age or preschool age, we start to kind of go, wait. Should we be doing these things or should it look a different way?
I read John Holt really early on. He was influential in my journey with this. And I love just looking at that toddler and very young child and seeing how much they were learning and seeing how natural it was to learn a language and cultural expectations and understandings and all of these pieces and recognize that that’s just something as humans we can carry through. But I think it is important to watch in ourselves, are we bringing something to it?
Because it’s like, okay, now they would be meeting this milestone, or they should be doing this or this, looking externally versus looking at the child in front of you. So, I think there’s a lot of things that go on with this transition, both in our heads and for the actual child that’s growing and changing.
ERIKA: I definitely found that to be true. I have strong memories of my oldest turning 2, 3, 4, and just having these feelings of, I’m supposed to be doing something, that he needs to be really learning now.
Like, it’s time. And I mean, really that was just all because of the culture that I was surrounded by. When I started hearing that the friends are going to school or different things like that. And so, it was interesting to see that in myself and be like, on one hand I am seeing all the learning that he is doing, and our lives are great and fine. And then on the other hand, these fears are popping up of, but should he be doing this?
And so, I think that transition from toddlers to children for me felt like having kids on my body at all times to now being able to watch them. They’re not right on me, but I’m watching them do things. And I just remember having long days of sitting and watching them explore things and setting things out for them to explore and it’s a different phase of life. And you see all the changes that they’re going through in their brains and just in what they want to do and seeing their personalities come out and their voice, like you were saying, Pam. Now they’re able to really tell us about their feelings, tell us about their ideas.
And so, as that begins, it’s a big transition for us as parents, because we go from really just caretaking and responding to physical needs and things like that, to now it’s another person and it’s this relationship of like, what do they need and what do I need, what do they want to do, and what can I do? What do I have the capacity for? So, yeah, that was a big transition age for me, and I loved it.
ANNA: Yeah, all the different times and seasons are so fun and interesting and so much to learn for myself and for kids. And so, now we’ll move into the next phase which is a bit broad, but that older child to pre-teen, because so much is happening during that time as well.
And I found, and as Pam was talking about our experiences with probably thousands of families at this point, age eight and nine seemed to be a big transition age for kids in terms of, you went from that toddler to being engaged in the moment doing things and really just having fun and playing. And then there’s something about eight, nine where for some kids it’s the first hints that we’ll see other phases of this as they get older. But the first hint of, there’s this bigger world and am I safe? And what’s happening?
And I love the way you said it too, Erika, it’s like we’re tending to these physical needs and some emotional needs, too. But I think it starts getting more complex as we get to that eight to 10. It’s the beginning of that and then it amps up even more in terms of just how they relate to other people. They’re curious about that. They see other people. They’re not quite as focused in the moment in front of them as more understanding of social dynamics and other things that are happening. And so, this age is the start of that. And so, I think it’s interesting, because in so many ways it’s less hands on and then in other ways it actually gets more intense as they get older in terms of, the stakes seem a little bit higher or the conversations are a little bit more intense.
So, I’m interested about to talk about this stage, too, because this one also leads us into the start of hormones as well.
PAM: Yeah. I do remember that season as they do start to like, just notice there is more than like the family. And there’s this bigger world out there, and it is really interesting to put the focus on helping them as they figure it out. As we talk about so much, there is this way that our culture is, it’s almost like exposure therapy, as in, as they’re noticing these things, we want to help them get used to it. Because yes, you are going to be seeing people. Yes, you are going to be going out and doing these things. That is what life’s about. So, if you are struggling with that, let’s do that more so you get used to it. Versus helping them process and move through the transition at their speed.
We had times when somebody did not want to be going out. They wanted to be staying home. They felt much more comfortable there. And that outside world was looking a bit scary to be out and about, and even maybe fears of other people, people in their family being out and about. They’re starting to recognize, or they’ve had some experiences with people passing on or things like that, or accidents happening, that they’re becoming cognizant of some more of the risk as well, so it really was a time of change. And again, it differs per child.
But we have definitely seen that pattern where anxiety and stress comes with recognizing that bigger picture. So, to be able to quiet those outer voices and really focus on our child and help them through the experience and stages, to be there processing, too.
I remember that was a time when we were just pulling into our comfort zone. We were cocooning sometimes and really just making their space comfortable for them, because I didn’t want to put more anxiety and more stress on top of what they were already processing and trying to work through. The more I could get rid of all of that, then the more they could sit with what they were feeling about that new piece, the bigger world, bigger stuff happens out there, all those pieces. So, just to give them the space to sit with that without loading school on top of it, without loading all the stress of making them do these things. It was just so very helpful. And yes, a pretty darn common thing, I think.
ERIKA: Yeah. I feel like it comes up for some families as, I don’t know what’s going on with my kid. Something is different. Something has changed. They’re not having fun doing the same things they used to. There’s maybe an increased seriousness that can happen sometimes with kids in that age. But it makes sense. It’s just that increased awareness of everything, putting themselves into some kind of place in the world. And so, that’s big and it’s a lot of big thoughts that can come up.
And so, I feel like I want to mention now, though it applies to every stage, just the idea of meeting the child in front of you each day rather than coming to them with, I know who you are. Don’t write the story of who they are. Just see who you’re going to meet today. Because there are these transitional times where you don’t really know what to expect. And to give them this space to just be who they are each day is really amazing for them. That it’s okay. It’s okay that some days they wake up and they have a lot of fears and anxiety about things, or they wake up and they’re like, I don’t think I want to do the same game that I’ve been really having fun with. It doesn’t seem as fun to me right now, and I’m not sure what I want to do next.
Those kinds of feelings of, I’m not as interested in what I used to be interested in, can sometimes almost feel like a, “What’s wrong with me?” kind of moment for a child. And so, us being there with patience and understanding and validation of, this happens and it’s happened to me and it’s common and it’s normal and we have plenty of time, like we talked about in the last episode, to let new things bubble up. And as you grow, as we all grow and change, our interests will change. Our mind, our brains will change. We’ll get new ideas and new things, new feelings about our lives. And so, yeah, I found that time to be super interesting with my kids. But now we’re a little bit beyond that. So, are you ready for teenagers? Should I move on to teen?
ANNA: I think we can.
ERIKA: Okay, so, my youngest is now 13, my oldest is 15. So, this young teenager age, I feel like does seem to flow and make sense from that eight, nine, becoming aware of the bigger world. Then we come into this young teenager age. But there is something special about adolescence that is different than that preteen phase and a lot of new feelings come up. A lot of brain development happens. A ton of brain development happens. And so, it really can, in many cases, feel like, who is my child? Who is this person? It’s like meeting a new person. Not everyone is quite so dramatic, but for me, I do feel like there were huge things that were like, okay, I thought you were like that and now you’re like this. And so, I have been reading this book by Dr. Dan Siegel called Brainstorm, which is about the adolescent brain. And so, he says adolescence is from maybe 12 years old to 24. So, it’s really quite a long period of this really expanding brain, changing brain.
And a couple of the things that he mentions that are special about teenagers are this emotional spark. So that’s that moodiness that we talk about with the hormones and, just lots of strong emotions. Maybe we feel sometimes like we’re back in the toddler days of “tantrums” or feeling strong emotions, where they’re just overtaken with emotion. Social engagement becomes a lot more important to them. Novelty seeking and then creative exploration, which is what we see in teenagers.
And so, I don’t know. I really am loving this phase. I’ve heard a lot from other unschooling parents that the teenage years are just so, so much fun, because we are giving the kids space to really figure out who they are rather than trying to control and direct their path. And I think that that feels, so far to me, like the key to this phase.
ANNA: Yeah. The no expectations, because I actually loved having teens. I loved teens even before I had teens. So, I was kind of excited, because I just think teens are so amazing. They’re thinking all the time about all these different things and they have all these cool ideas and new perspectives. They haven’t been weighed down by time like the rest of us have. And so, it’s really fun to really get into that.
But I do want to say, I also probably did the most work on myself during that time, in that I had to separate myself in terms of recognizing that they’re on their own journey and I can’t control that journey.
When we have this baby that we can pop in the sling and go, we are their comfort because that’s all they want is to be close to us. And that’s it. It’s harder when there’s things we can’t comfort right away. We had some dark times during our teen years and that was okay, too, but it was a lot of work to go, this is okay, this is the human experience and I want to be here. And like you said, just meeting the person in front of me with unconditional love and acceptance along the way.
But there are a couple of broader things I just want to throw out. I have two girls. They’re old now. But I’ve seen a lot of girls in that age and that particular age can be really intense. And I think it can be for boys, too, but it seems to play out a little bit differently. And maybe it’s just personalities more than gender, but that kind of 12 to 15, 16 age can be intense, because they’re pulling away, they’re coming back, they’re pulling away, they’re mad, there’s all the hormones. Their bodies are changing dramatically. It’s a really intense and challenging time. And the moment I got caught up in myself about it was when we had trouble, like if I’m making it about me or I’m getting my feelings hurt or those kind of things. That’s where we would derail.
When I just recognize, this is really hard. What they’re experiencing and learning about themselves and about the world is really hard and if I could give space for that, it just made it so much easier. And again, easy is relative.
But what I also found is they do come out of the other side of it. Because I do feel like there were dramatic personality changes that I noticed during that time as they’re trying things on and figuring out who they are and getting a little bit more moody and dark, and then they come out of it and you’re like, oh, this is cool because it’s bits of the child that you knew and it’s bits of this younger teenager that you saw developing. And then it’s bits of this older person that will come. And it’s such a special experience. I think we get, as unschoolers and choosing to be together all of this time, to see that human development in that way and it’s just really special. And I think if we don’t get caught up in the expectations or trying to tunnel in, it can make a really big difference.
PAM: I loved your point of the different parts of it, the pulling away, the more out and about, and then the coming in, the out and in, knowing that there’s a safe space to come back to and recenter and reground.
But what was really interesting was, for me anyway, you can feel like, okay, they’re teens, they’re pretty self-sufficient now. They can get their own food, they can go to sleep and they can get dressed, all those pieces, and they’re going out and about more. And so you can kind of feel like, oh, okay, now I’m not needed so much and I can go out and do all the things. But what I learned was, and we’ve talked about this before, but I found I was actually needed just as much during this time, but it looked different because it wasn’t a day-to-day, ongoing need. It was more like not needed for a day, a week, a month, three months, and then needed every day for another period of time as they came back in and they were processing and they were figuring stuff out.
That’s why I think it’s so much about our work for ourselves at this time, because the questions aren’t, how do I do this? I want to go do this thing. Can you pick up this thing for me? So, it was less about interests and more about themselves and processing who they want to be and how they fit into the world, and how they engage with other people and the work to separate ourselves and to really be able to see it through their eyes and understand who they are and who they’re wanting to become, and not judging that.
As they’re trying on different, maybe different personality pieces, maybe just different lenses to see something and go, oh my gosh, I would never have that take on that situation, but they aren’t owning that. It’s not like, they’re looking at it this way, so therefore that’s the way they’re going to look at it forever. No, they are exploring, exploring. They’re learning. They’re trying things on, they’re figuring stuff out.
So, when we can separate feeling like we are being judged by them and we can just really see them for who they are and, like you’re saying, who is this person this morning? That’s okay, because they are just trying on so many things and putting things together. And as you were saying, as they come out the other side, they’re picking up what resonated. Like, I missed that part of me as a child. Because maybe they’re ignoring it for a while and they’re trying other pieces. But they might realize they miss that piece of and think, that’s something I want to bring with me as I move forward. And I found this new piece and I really like that. And right now I want to to mix that in.
So, yeah, you never know what mix you’re going to get each day, which was just so curious and fun. And it was just so interesting and fascinating to tag along and learn all the different things that they were pursuing, they were trying on. Also, absolutely not easy at times, but when it wasn’t easy, that felt like time for me to work on myself. It’s also not easy for them, so understanding that. Then I also not only work on myself, not bring me in it, but to be able to help them process and move through that, whether they’re internal processors or external processors.
For an internal processor, maybe it’s me giving them space, maybe it’s me just showing extra care during that time. And after they’ve processed it internally, being open and available for any conversation they want to have at that point. Or the external processor is talking about it again and again and over and over and over and over, so it’s so different for each child. It’s so different for a child at different points. It’s a beautiful, beautiful season. And I don’t like thinking about as hard, but it kept me on my toes. It kept me reminding myself who I wanted to be. It kept me just being open, being curious, being empathetic, and just seeing through another person’s eyes and that has never steered me wrong, child, teen, or adult.
ERIKA: I had something pop in my mind while I was thinking about that. I remember my mom recently talking about my teen years. All three of us, my brother, sister and I, are really close in age and so, she had a lot of the intensity of teenagehood all at once together. And she said that, at first, it was really shocking how much our emotions, our kind of emotional explosions had suddenly increased, and it just felt like it was all the time this heightened emotion. And so, at first, she was getting amped up with us, like we were angry, and so, then she’s trying to meet us there and she’d get angry and upset and we’d like have these fights, arguments, or whatever.
And then, she said, “But then I realized how quickly you would move through that emotional outburst and I would still be sitting here like, what just happened? And still feeling upset.” And she’s like, “So, I just stopped going on the emotional ride and I was just like, they’re okay.” And so, I think that’s like that not taking it personally, and letting them have their experience, but not getting worked up into it where it’s like I have to solve everything or I need to get myself all worked up and heightened. And so, being that calm presence, being there at the end of it, being there to support through it, those things are super important to me with my teens now.
ANNA: I like the rollercoaster analogy. It’s like we can be right there next watching and being there when they get off, but we don’t have to ride that, because honestly, I did do that at times and ended up feeling like I’d been run over by a truck. Then they’re off doing fine. And I’m like, wait a minute.
And so, then I had that recovery time, but it wasn’t my journey. It wasn’t mine to do. But I could still be there.
And that reminded me of something that came up as you all were talking is just the connection and supporting autonomy and agency we do when they’re younger really lends itself to this time, because that foundation is so helpful during the teen years. Because as they go off, they do come back and when something happens that doesn’t feel great or off or whatever, they know that there’s no judgment and that they can talk about it and that we’ll be there.
And I think that was such an important part for me, because I felt they were safer that way. Because some people worry about safety in this and I felt so good about our connection that I knew they would come back if they needed something and I was there with that unconditional, loving presence.
And so, that’s what I wanted to work on. I wanted to make sure I was doing the work for myself that I could show up in that way. And I thought it helped us through those times, because again, there’s a lot lability and the going off and coming back. It’s a really beautiful time though. And again, I learned so much about myself and I learned so much just about being in relationship with other humans.
PAM: I know. I think so. And I think it’s also just to point out, too, when we talk about it. Feeling good, et cetera, but it’s not about, oh, I’m feeling good and ultimately they’re gonna make choices that I’m comfortable with. No, and that’s what I think as you were, were talking there, Anna, I too felt like the relationship and the connection was the foundation that I needed and the nonjudgmental environment.
It doesn’t mean therefore I have to agree with every choice that they make. I can say, I would never make that choice. That choice like just fills me with discomfort. Yet, seeing through your eyes, I can see how they got there. Even if they wouldn’t make that choice again. It’s not about us being totally comfortable with every choice that they make or everything that they do, but knowing or feeling that they have a space that they can come back to, even when they’re like, holy crap, this did not go the way I was expecting.
Off they went towards something or this relationship that they thought would go one way and it went completely sideways. It’s not about them being totally happy with how things go and us being totally happy with how they’re moving through their days. But that foundation of the relationship, so that they know there’s a place they can come to, to process that, to talk about that, where they can get support and help and ideas for moving through for where they find themselves now.
I think that, foundationally, is what we found to be helpful so that they didn’t feel like, now, I’ve screwed up and I’m on my own. Which just means there’s a much greater chance that it’s just going to keep going more and more sideways. So, they find the spot where it’s like, oh, okay, I think I need some input. I think I would like some help, whatever. Whether it’s just conversation or like, come pick me up. Any of those moments that we have that relationship where they at least feel comfortable enough to do that.
Okay. So, are we ready? Oh, you want to add more?
ANNA: Okay. I think I’m going to do this here and I’m a little bit worried it may go sideways, but we’re going to try, because this is something I heard a really long time ago and there are parts of the language of it that I don’t love, but it actually was helpful to me. And that was, when we’re looking at the learning of unschooled children as they grow, I remember somebody saying, and this was 25 years ago probably, that in the beginning when they’re young and they’re toddlers and they’re young, they are ahead. You see them. They’re just learning machines. You see the learning. It’s so easy to see all the things that they’re learning and doing, and you just see like, wow. They’re not being pinned in by first grade that you have to do. They’re learning about bones and paleontology and all these things when they’re young.
And then there’s this middle age where they look more behind and basically it’s because there’s a lot of language at school, in terms of particular math functions or these kind of things that actually don’t apply to everyday life. They’re things that we aren’t even using now. And so, our kids, when they’re in that kind of middle age that we’re talking about now, this kind of preteen, early teen age, they’re just diving deep into their interests, which may or may not include the quadratic equation that the neighbors are talking about. And so, then it’s like, oh, okay, are they behind now?
And then this next phase that we’re about to go to, Pam, with this kind of older age. You see like, oh wow. What they know is how to learn, how to figure things out, how to be in the world, how to be in relationship, how to go and pursue the things that they’re interested in, because that’s what they’ve been fostering all along. And so, then they look ahead again, because then you’ve got these people that are struggling in college, because they were supposed to go there, but they don’t know what they want to do and they don’t really have a sense of who they are. And so, I don’t know. It was kind of helpful for me and I’ve seen it play out over the years.
And it’s part of what we talked about last time in the Plenty of Time episode. It’s a long game. And so, if you’re taking any slice along the way, whether it’s, oh, look how much they know, and how amazing, if you’re hanging on to those external pieces, you’re going to find yourself not in the best place. But if you look at it as a long game of like, what’s happening? Am I showing up for this person that’s showing up in front of me? Are we connected? Am I facilitating? Are we living our life? I just wanted to share it, because it was interesting and helpful to me at different times. So, I’m putting it out there and now we can go down to you.
ERIKA: Well, I was just going to say, it’s like a description of the outside messages that we’ll receive, The outside messages we’ll receive when they’re so little are like, oh my gosh, they’re so amazing. And then as they get bigger, but do they know the math? All these times tables or whatever. And then, the next one is like, wow, this young adult is so amazing. So, the outside messages that we receive at these different transition times are so strong and so particular and so cultural. And so, it’ll trigger those memories in us, of us at those different ages. And it just brings up so much. So, this is our internal work to do to put it all in perspective.
ANNA: It’s a long game to put it all in perspective. That’s what I wanted to get from it, because I think there’s value to understanding that those messages are rooted in something different and we’re looking at it in a very different way. This is a long game, this whole human experience.
PAM: Yes. And depending on when you start unschooling, you get all those early messages like, oh man, that’s amazing, and everything. And it can really throw you for a loop when it’s like, okay, now they’re talking about their science experiments and their more detailed math and all those pieces. The curriculum changes to what is apparently more advanced, et cetera. Our child is into whatever their interest is and maybe that interest looks schoolish, but maybe it doesn’t. So, it’s so helpful and fascinating for us to, again, do that personal work to see, are we using those external messages to validate ourselves and our choice to do this? Because that’ll eventually shoot you in the foot at some point one way or the other.
This last transition we are talking about is teen into young adult years. I loved your adolescence piece, Erika, up to the age of 24. I can totally see that. And I will put in the show notes a link to our podcast episode earlier about What’s So Magical About Age 18? because that is a whole other world of outside messages that come up during this transition.
Like, okay, but what about college? But what job are they getting? All those pieces that that can come up and it’s yet another stage of work for us to do. But also, back to supporting our kids. And the thing is now they’ve hit an age where they too hear all those messages.
So, there’s processing sometimes for them to do as well. But also, maybe they’ve found their thing, but also they’re still exploring. Again, it doesn’t need to be, oh, you’re 18 and now you need to look like this. It’s like, oh my gosh. You can keep being you because you are awesome and to be able to support them through that.
If you find yourself being buffeted around by outside messages, those are clues. It’s like, okay, I need to do some work and figure out why I’m being affected by all these outer messages and find that foundation. Because unschooling, from my blog posts to these hundreds of podcast episodes, it really is about being a human in the world. It really is. It eventually, quickly, becomes not really about school at all. School or not school isn’t really the fundamental question. So, just to help them and support them and engage with them as they make these transitions and it’s not really age-dependent. It really is to do with the person and what they want to explore next.
And the piece of personality is so interesting. We’ve got lots of years to look back on. And we can start to see the threads. When you were interested in that thing, I thought it was about that thing, but really it was just about this slice of that thing and now I can see how you grabbed these various slices and brought them together and now I can see how you’re wanting to move forward in this direction. It’s super interesting and fascinating. And also we’re not going to label you and say, now you are this for the rest of your life.
It is a really fun stage. But again, there’s just so much. There’s so much with moving out. There’s so much with college. Doors aren’t closed, either, as much because we don’t have that expectation that at 18 you do this and then you do this. It’s much more about them feeling it out and seeing what feels good for them, and I hesitate to say, feels good for them, because for people listening that might be like, oh, well they’re not going to do anything hard if they’re only going to do what feels good. But that’s not really what it is.
Because it can feel good to do really challenging things, because I want the thing on the other side. So, doing things that feel good doesn’t mean that they’re always easy, which I think people can equate with, especially in the young adult years. It’s easy maybe to make the culturally acceptable choices and there’s processing in making other kinds of choices. But man, sometimes those other choices just fit that person like a glove.
ERIKA: Yeah. I really do recommend that other episode for sure, because that was a really good in-depth conversation of this age period. But just what comes to mind for me is that learning is lifelong. There’s no finish line. I think I talked about on that one the idea of, how’s this child going to turn out when they’re an adult? That idea. It’s not about turning out, because we’re all still learning and growing and changing and so, I’m still turning out. I feel like that’s the thing to keep grounding in when we have the young adult children. It’s just like, you still have all the options. You still are allowed to grow and change and there’s no one right way.
ANNA: And that’s the piece for me, too. And I love that you mentioned the threads, Pam, because I even think about my own life and the different jobs and careers and interests that I’ve had over my 55 years. It’s like, oh, there are these interesting threads. And I think that can be really cool. But it didn’t always look traditional. It didn’t always look like what they sell you, that you’re going to go to college and get one job and you’ll have a job until you retire. This is not really how it works anymore, even for our generation, and much less so for the people behind us. And I think that is something that I really have enjoyed watching.
And when you were talking about it feels good, I mean, I will say there’s been times for both of my adult kids that hasn’t felt good. They’re trying to figure out like, I don’t know, this doesn’t feel good. What do I want to do? And that’s part of it, too, because I’ve been there as well. What do I want to do next? Does this make sense? Am I happy in in the choices that I’ve made? How do I want to do it?
And so, what I love and what I’m trying to just leave space for them to see is that yeah, that’s life. We have these opportunities and these times and we can figure things out. And if we don’t like it, we can switch and pivot.
In the work that I do now working with individuals and couples and families, I see so many older adults that are not so happy that really have gone along someone else’s path and it didn’t serve them. And so, I do think this time for our kids who are growing up into adulthood and figuring it out, it can be bumpy still. But there’s a connection piece that’s different and there’s just this understanding that there’s not one right way and that we can try different things and that that’s okay. There’s no judgment about that. And so, that piece I really love about what we can bring to everyone, because I think really everyone wants that unconditional love and acceptance.
And so, I love being able to offer that to these teens and young adults where it can feel so fraught. I have a client right now who is in college about to graduate and, oh my gosh. I just feel for her. She has a traditional mainstream upbringing, but it’s not even that. It’s just it’s such a big, weighty time. She’s putting so much weight on everything. And when I’m introducing to her the idea of, it’s okay for you to change your mind, like you could do that for a little while and then change your mind. She’s like, what? And so, I love just introducing that idea to all of us, that we don’t have to bring so much weight to everything.
I think my kids taught me that, too, when they were little, like, we don’t have to bring so much weight to all the decisions. We can learn and pivot no matter what happens.
ERIKA: I had one other thing pop into my mind, which is, for all these different transitional ages and these seasons that we go through, sometimes there could be something that feels really challenging, and so, we resist it or we want them to get through that phase, get through that season, or, “I just can’t wait till the next age, because this is so challenging.” You know what I mean? And we’ve talked about this on the Network so many times and probably on the podcast too, but just the idea that nothing lasts forever, but being okay with it lasting forever is often the key for it to be able to change.
So, the more we’re holding onto, I just hope they change, sometimes the less likely it is for them to move through that. And so, I think we can do that for ourselves as adults when our lives are challenging and we’re going through a hard time, but we can also do it when our kids are going through a hard time. Just coming to that acceptance of, even if this lasts forever, we’re going to make it through and sometimes, just that release can help bring a different mindset. You give yourself space to be more open and curious about what can happen.
ANNA: Yeah. We’re exactly where we need to be.
PAM: Exactly. And I love that you brought that up, because that has been my experience. When things would just get so like, oh my gosh, when is this going to be over? Not that I’m saying that to them, but I’m feeling it. When I can get to a place of, the world isn’t over even if it’s like this forever, then I can release the need for change and get back to that openness and see. All of a sudden, I see more possibilities with things being this way. And it might be magic, but that energy I have with them and my engagement with them obviously must be different somehow.
Even if I feel like I’m not really saying anything different, the energy that I’m bringing to it is, because so often, yes, that felt like it was the catalyst in them being able to release, too. We must have been energetically stuck with each other and now they could release anything they were feeling from me and just really feel into themselves and they would find like just a new baby step in a new direction. It’s fascinating to see an action, isn’t it?
All right, so I think we have covered this one enough. I want to thank everybody very much for joining us. I hope you found something interesting in this conversation. I really enjoyed talking about the different seasons alongside each other, because then we get to see the threads that are common to these different stages, even though they can look very, very different.
And please remember to check out the Living Joyfully Shop and the Living Joyfully Network, because I know Erika talked about how much she loved that, but I know Anna and I do, too. There are amazing families in there. And it is just like, our kids are long grown adults and we still find it just so fascinating to be engaging with parents who are intentional and who’ve had wide ranging different lives and experiences. So, it is a lovely place. And we definitely invite you to join us there and we wish everyone a lovely week. Talk to you soon. Bye bye!
EU370: There’s Plenty of Time
Sep 12, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about one of Anna’s favorite sayings, “There’s plenty of time.” This mindset shift is so helpful in many different circumstances, making it a very useful tool!
We talk about using it in busy moments, when thinking about learning and child development, and even in more urgent situations. This mindset shift to “there’s plenty of time” can help can help bring clarity and calm and shift us out of fear-based tunnel vision.
We had a lot of fun talking about it and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Unschooling Wobbles, coaching calls, and more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
PAM: Hello! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and I am joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both!
ANNA AND ERIKA: Hello!
PAM: So, today we are going to dive into the mindset shift that has been invaluable to me over the years, and that’s that there’s plenty of time. It is something that I still regularly need to remind myself, particularly when challenging times arise. Because what it does is it helps me transition out of the tunnel vision that fear or challenge inspires in me. It’s like, oh my gosh, this thing happened. I’ve got to fix it. I’ve got to move as quick as possible. And it helps me get out of that mode and into more open and curious, so that I can lean more into the situation, into what’s actually going on, who’s involved. Because truly, even though so many things that go sideways feel like emergencies, they’re not. So, that is what we are going to be diving into.
But before we do that, we just want to invite you to check out the Living Joyfully online shop. There are courses, my books are there. There’s coaching options that are already all available. And this fall, we will be adding calendars as well as a new book, an audio book that I am putting together of all the talks that I’ve given over the years, and some audiobook editions of my existing books. I’ve got some more of those. Anyway, we are really enjoying creating a one-stop shop to support you as you navigate relationships with your loved ones and deep dive into your unschooling journey. And you can follow the link in the show notes or just go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.
And now, Anna, since I learned about this mindset shift from you many, many years ago, would you like to get us started?
ANNA: I would! Yeah, it is funny, because so many people associate this with me. Actually, a friend from the Network made me this card. So, if you’re on YouTube you’ll see this. Maybe we can post it. But it’s this really nice little embroidery on a card that says Plenty of Time, because I say it so often. And it’s just because of me, because I really need to.
We live in a culture that has a really strong sense of urgency and brings sense of urgency to everything from academics to when you’re in the medical system to when you’re just in your day to day, and with growth and development or anything. There’s just this imposed sense of urgency. And I think my personality just really gets caught up in that. I’m kind of a go go gal anyway. And so, I just get going and I just have this urgency. And what I’ve found is that in some arenas, it serves me. I get a lot of things done. But in relationships, it was really causing problems, because I was rolling over people and not really getting to know them or understand or take the pause that I needed to to really understand a situation. I was making assumptions. I was looking at it through my eyes only.
And a lot of times, it felt like things were so off or were having a big conflict and years ago, I was like, what’s happening? Why is this? Why is this feeling hard? And then I recognized, then I brought this mantra in for myself. It’s like, there’s plenty of time. I don’t have to solve everything right now. There really isn’t a sense of urgency. It’s so often just manufactured. And as soon as I say that to myself, okay, there’s plenty of time, I just feel my energy come down. I just feel so much calmer and then I’m really able to use the other tools that we talk about so often, just listening and validating and leaving space and all of those pieces.
And so, it comes into play in so many ways. So, it’s going to be fun to talk about it and see what it means to the two of you, but that’s really what it is for me. It’s about shedding that sense of urgency that I’ve been handed and can get caught up in, but especially bringing it into relationships and problem solving. Because everybody feels so much more comfortable and seen and calm. And what I’ve found is that when I can bring that calm to a situation, it just changes it.
ERIKA: Absolutely. Yeah. I love the phrase. I love using it. And one thing I really love about it is it applies to everything. Because it really is just about calming myself. And so, it doesn’t matter if I’m doing future tripping, scary things about, this is going to be terrible in five years or whatever, or if it’s just in this moment, we have to get to the meeting or we have to go to the restaurant, or whatever it is. So, it’s all those little day-to-day moments. And also it applies to, why aren’t they reading fluently yet? You know what I mean? How are they going to be able to do their laundry and stuff?
So, anytime those fears get in mind, there’s plenty of time, feels like taking a deep breath. It feels like giving myself space to get out of that tunnel vision and get out of that fear vision that I can get into just because of stress of life.
And so, I was thinking that part of why we have this urgency, or maybe it’s a symptom, but in school, right? So, you do a class and then the bell rings and you’d have another class, and then the bell rings and you have another class. And so, we get trained into this, onto the next thing, onto the next thing. Like we should always be moving forward with this quickness. And so, the plenty of time idea to me feels so good and healthy and it’s like giving a gift to my kids to give them space to not say, okay, onto the next thing. Onto the next. Like, that’s enough of that, let’s move on. There’s plenty of time. They can spend as much time as they need on what they want to do. And we don’t have to be in a rush and fall into that sense of urgency.
PAM: I love that you brought that school lens to it, too, because as you were talking there, it reminded me not just from class to class to class, but how much of our lives in school are timed. Tests are timed. Everything that you do is pointing towards, I need to do this quickly. The quicker I can fill out my test, the more of it I’ve done and the higher mark I get. Doing things quickly is held up as the goal, right? So, it is a surprisingly big shift to release that need, that urgency, to dig into why it feels urgent. Is it because I just want to do it fast so that I look like I did it successfully?
And then for me, another piece, or another layer as I pulled back that urgency thing, it was, I discovered more often than not, it was because I was feeling uncomfortable in the situation. So, there was discomfort and it was more about trying to make myself comfortable again in whatever the situation was. I wanted to solve it fast so that I looked good, but also I was uncomfortable with this nebulousness or this unsolved piece of our lives. And so, getting more comfortable with discomfort, not seeing discomfort as a bad thing, but seeing it as just like part of the process it, I came to see it was where I could get to that curious thing.
Now, if I just sat there and did nothing and just tried to pretend that it would go away, my discomfort was just extended. And then we just got more and more uncomfortable, because we weren’t really talking about it, and we weren’t really making any movement forward. I was going to say progress, but then that brings in judgment to it. But it’s that idea.
But it was so valuable to me to be able to take that step back, to be able to say, you know what? I can sit with this discomfort for a while. I can get curious, I can learn more things. Like you were saying, Anna, we learn so much when we actually start looking at the people involved and observing their reactions, actually hearing what they’re sharing. Actually processing enough for myself so I can share what I’m feeling or thinking in a way that isn’t judgmental about what other people are feeling, but just another thread through the situation.
Because the other valuable piece of that is then other people don’t feel so defensive, like they have to dig in and defend whatever their perspective is or whatever direction they are thinking they’d like it to unfold. And we can just release a lot of that tension so that we can have just more conversations around it.
But if we don’t think there’s plenty of time to have those conversations, we’re like, okay, like this is the best solution. This is our fastest way. You’ll like this. Trust me. And we hold onto that so tightly. Even if we don’t force people to do it, our energy comes with, this is the best solution. And in our conversations, we’re picking out the pieces that align with that. Oh yes, you said this, see that fits with this that I’m wanting to do. And what we’re trying to do is navigate everybody else to come to the conclusion that our path was the best versus actually working with each other. But that takes time, doesn’t it?
ANNA: Right. And I think it’s so helpful to just unpack that idea that faster is better and even an efficiency lens. Because I live with someone who has an efficiency lens about certain things and it’s really interesting to see the rub of that. It’s like, where’s it coming from? What is that idea that the straight path is better, it’s faster? Where does that come from? Because I think in a lot of situations, outside of ourselves, it’s serving someone else. In school, it’s serving just that we’ve got to keep moving and we’ve got to keep getting 30 kids turned out of this and getting them through the test.
And I was always that super fast test taker. I’m a super fast eater. I just really bought all into this fast is better and efficiency lens. And again, I think there are times when it serves me, but I really do think I missed a lot in those days. I think I didn’t retain that material, because I really was just quickly going through the test to spit it back out.
And what I loved about watching my kids when they were younger and as they grew up was just, it was a richer experience where they really took time with things and made mistakes. We talk about this where it’s like, “made mistakes” is kind of a school concept again, but for them, it was just like, ooh, try this and pivot here and do this.
And when you just really embody this sense that there’s plenty of time, there is no wrong way. And with each turn and with each choice that you make, you’re learning something about yourself, about the people that you’re with, even about the particular subject, do I like this? Do I not like this? Do I want to do it a different way? And I just feel like I short-circuited a lot of that learning for myself when I was younger. I feel like my kids gave me that back to just recognize, like, yeah, I just want to slow it down so that I can connect with the people so that I can learn more about myself.
I feel like that’s another piece of this is when we’re on that fast track, it can distract us a little bit from looking at ourselves and understanding our own pieces. And I’ve definitely been guilty of that. And so, I feel like as I’ve gotten older, and then as my kids kind of taught me this lesson, it was like, oh, okay. It goes back to what you’re saying, Pam, sitting with discomfort, because sometimes when we’re learning things about ourselves, it’s a little uncomfortable. But learning that, hey, I can sit with this and learn more about myself. And maybe it’s because I’m getting older, but it’s like, now I feel like that’s why we’re here. That’s what this human journey is all about. And so, I love this little quick reminder. Because, like you said, Erika, it’s like taking a deep breath and whew, here we are.
ERIKA: Yeah. As you both were talking, I was thinking about life with little kids. I feel like this is where this first came to mind was life with little kids. Because imagine when you go for a walk with a little kid, you take one step out the door and they are looking at something and it just feels like it’s going to take forever, and why are we stopped here? That kind of thing. And so, I feel like, a lot of us have had that experience of like, oh my gosh, my toddler just wants to do this same thing for hours and hours, and how can we get through it?
And so, I think that was the beginning of, deep breath. There’s no rush. We don’t have to move on to the next thing. But once you can get in that head space of, there’s plenty of time and let’s just see how things unfold, I don’t need to direct, I don’t need to point out the right way to do something or the thing that I think is important or whatever, and just kind of letting things unfold for our kids. They can learn so much more. They can learn more about themselves, they can learn more about the things that they’re interested in.
And so, I think that sense of urgency or that checklist that we might have in our mind of the next thing. Well, they learned how to do this, so then the next thing is this, having that mental checklist and that sense of urgency really gets in the way of them creating their own learning journey.
And I think the same thing applies to us. And we had many years of really not knowing that there’s plenty of time and not having the space to learn about ourselves. And so, that deep breath and that time and settling our brains down to be like, it doesn’t have to be the next thing. Just focusing on what’s in this moment and relaxing into this moment, it’s just so powerful.
PAM: It’s so powerful. And I just love how you can take this little nugget and apply it everywhere. We talked about relationships. We’ve talked about challenges, talked about learning. It’s just so vastly valuable in all of those spaces to be able to peel back that layer. For me, that’s part of the transition to like lifelong learning from school, curriculum-based learning. There’s plenty of time for that thing to bubble up and there’s plenty of time for them to stay stuck with this one thing that they’re really focused on right now.
It just applies everywhere and it’s a valuable little thing just to bring to our days and really explore just that push that we feel. Because we can feel it in so many ways. And as I just think back over my days, it’s just like, okay, this and then this and then this. But truly there is so little that is an emergency. We can take the time to actually engage with it, to sit with it for a little bit. And as you both said, we just learn so much when we do that. I learned so much from watching my kids and I really had to go back to that beginning place and not just figure it out myself, because when I looked to them, I could see it in action. I could see them taking the time and I’m like, oh. Why aren’t they wanting to do this and this?
Sometimes I tried offering things, but I was also cognizant enough to, when I got some pushback or just like completely ignored, not to have expectations around things, especially when we bring them to our kids. Because they may be in a place where even though that could be really cool and interesting to them, right now they’re still here. There’s plenty of time for them to notice that thing.
So, for me, it’s just like, I can plant a seed and then maybe the next day or the next month or two years down the road, it’s like, hey, remember when you mentioned this thing? I’d like to hear more about that.
So, there’s plenty of time just works in just about any situation. You can use it just about every day in our society.
ANNA: It does! And I know sometimes, people will ask, what do I do? I’m frustrated or I’m not showing up in the way I want to. Or, we’re having these conflicts. And they just want to know, what’s going on? What are some options? And I think this piece is really a great place to start. Because I think anytime we’re under time pressure, and I think it’s probably worse for some personalities, mine being one of them, but time pressure builds this feeling like, I want to do a good job, I want to get there on time. All these other outside messages that I’ve had.
What I found is, again, I wasn’t showing up as the person I wanted to when I was bringing that sense of urgency under that time pressure. And so, I think it’s a great place to start to just go, okay, so we’re having an interaction, like you were saying, Erika, we’re trying to get out the door or something, and I feel myself like getting a little energy about it, and what if I just change it?
And that’s the kind of situation I would use it, in like, you know what? There’s actually plenty of time. And my energy would come down. The kids’ energy would come down. David’s energy would come down. And we’d get out the door. And so, I think it’s just when you find yourself feeling that feeling, especially if there’s a tightness to it, just see how it feels to breathe into, there’s actually plenty of time.
Because, like you said, Pam, the amount of times that it’s an actual emergency, you’re not even going to be thinking. You’re going to act. You’re going to pull that kid out of the road. You’re going to do the thing that you need to do. You’re going to take care of the wound. Whatever the thing is happening, that’s an actual emergency. There won’t be time to be getting irritated with people or thinking about what’s happening in your head. So, that’s the clue to me that, wait a minute, this is about me. And what happens if I bring that different energy?
ERIKA: I was thinking about the emergencies, too, and honestly it helps then, too. If you feel like you’re freaking out and there are too many things. It’s like, there’s plenty of time. It’s my reminder, too, it’s just one step at a time. So, I know I have these moments, not emergencies, but say I’m hungry and then they’re also hungry. And then also the phone rings. And the dog needs to go out. All these things could pile up in a split second where it felt like everything was fine and now everything is busy. And so, if in that moment when I start to feel myself getting overwhelmed, I could just be like, there’s plenty of time, one thing at a time, one step at a time, it just helps in every situation.
PAM: Yeah, it’s true. It really does. And I think it’s just such a great reminder that we have agency, because so often when things like that are piling up on us, we feel like all we can do is react. But I think the shift that there’s plenty of time helps me. It helps me ground. It helps me center. It helps me process a little bit so that I feel more like I’m responding. Because like you’re both saying, when we react, we bring so much negative energy to the situation. And then people start reacting to us, and then it’s just like this ping pong ball of stress that goes back and forth and back and forth and back and forth till we’re all completely frustrated.
And somebody says, well then we’re not going. And too bad. But, oh my gosh, when I could remember to bring that energy of, there’s plenty of time, so that everybody’s energy is down, we would actually get out faster than if I was trying to prod everybody, like literally time-wise faster and feeling so much better, when I wasn’t constantly prodding people and prodding people and instead I was supporting, asking, do you need some help with this? Just not getting in people’s way, not constantly poking them. I think when I’m feeling an urgency, I’m poking people and then they’re just like, screw that. Or they’re poking back.
ANNA: Putting up a wall. PAM: Exactly. The wall goes up and then we move slower. ANNA: Right. I’m going to repeat something you said, Erika, just because I think it’s so important. I love this. We’re talking about how to use it in these moments, but it’s both, right? It’s using it in those intense moments, but it is also that there’s plenty of time to learn the things that they need to learn. There’s plenty of time for relationships and friendships to develop and grow later on. Because we can get stuck in our heads about, but do they have enough friends or are they doing enough this or this or that?
And so, that was another time I found it so valuable was just like, but actually this is a long game. If we’re lucky enough, we have a long life to figure all of these pieces out. And if it’s a short life, then even more I want to be just doing what we love and enjoying each other. So, it really helped calm me from both sides. And so, I love again that it’s useful in these moments and it’s also useful when we get in a spiral that’s a little more, out there, future worry, esoteric.
PAM: Yes. Me too. Well, thank you so much to everyone for joining us. We hope that you enjoyed our conversation and even picked up a nugget or two for your unschooling journey and, let’s face it, life and living, because this is just something fundamental, I think, to human beings, or at least to those of us who grew up in that more conventional school-based environment where the pressure came to do things fast and do things right, don’t make mistakes. All that stuff really plays into that fear and that urgency we feel. So, just reminding ourselves that we have plenty of time and playing with that throughout the day in all sorts of situations can really help us see some really fun layers where we can apply it and it can be useful. And remember to check out The Living Joyfully Shop at, not surprisingly livingjoyfullyshop.com. And we wish everyone a lovely week. Thanks so much! Bye!
EU369: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: People Are Different
Aug 29, 2024
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about how people are different.
“People are different” has become a common refrain on the Exploring Unschooling Podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network and for good reason! Once we sink into the reality that people are truly so different—their priorities, their brains, their interests, the way they express themselves, their likes and dislikes, their bodies, their personalities, and so on—it becomes so much easier to assume positive intent and to meet people where they are. We can more easily see through their eyes and understand that there’s no one right way.
We’ve been really excited to dive more deeply into this idea. It was a very fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ANNA: Hello, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both.
PAM AND ERIKA: Hello!
ANNA: Before we get started, I want to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network, including our new course Four Pillars of Unschooling, where we explore four foundational ideas and paradigm shifts that can help you along your journey. Especially if it’s new and really if not, but especially if it’s new, I think it’s a good framework to start to understand, oh, okay, these are some important paradigm shifts.
The shop has resources and support for really every stage of your journey and different levels, whether you want some personalized attention with coaching, or if you want to work through some courses, or again, join the Network, which gives you a community of people living all over the world. It’s so fun to see their lives and what’s happening with their families. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.
So, today I’m very excited. We’re going to be talking about the idea that people are different. And while it sounds simple, it is so layered and not understanding it can definitely be a stumbling block in our relationships. And once you really embrace it, I feel like it becomes so fun just noticing all the ways and finding ways to apply this lens.
So, we’re going to have a lot of fun talking about that today. I think it takes some of the mystery and frustration out of other people’s behavior when we recognize, oh, this is a people are different thing. We tend to think everyone sees and experiences the world in the same way, and so when they don’t, it can actually cause some friction. So, I’m very excited to dive into this very broad topic with both of you. Erika, do you want to get us started?
ERIKA: I would love to. This might be one of my most favorite topics to talk about these days, and I’m just really excited to see what we are able to touch on today, while also knowing that there will be so much more that we won’t even get to, because it is such a big, rich topic to explore once we start thinking about it. And so, I really think that we started putting that “people are different” lens into words in the past few years because of some deep dives that we have all done individually and together, probably partly inspired by the deep conversations we have on the Network around personalities and learning about the different people there.
And I think we can, on a surface level, say, “People are different,” and everyone would agree like, “Well, yeah, of course.” But the deeper stuff, like, “No, people are really different,” can take a while to wrap our heads around.
And so, for example, the way our brains work is different and our personalities and temperaments are different. Of course, everyone has different past experiences and maybe past trauma that impacts what they do today, and so that contributes to our differences. Our go-to defense mechanisms and our reactions to things and all the beliefs we have about the world can just be so, so different.
That’s not even to mention fun things like our interests and what lights us up, and our bodies and what makes our bodies feel good, our curiosity and what our curiosity leads us to. So, if you just start to think about putting all these different aspects of ourselves together into one complex human, it’s no wonder that so many times we could feel like it’s so hard to communicate or it’s hard to understand why other people are making such different decisions from what we would do, but it’s just because we’re all so different.
PAM: We’re all so different. And for me, I just love to keep coming back to this idea, like you were saying, there’s just so many layers to it. Introvert, extrovert, just to grab something that’s pretty common for people to consider. “Oh yeah. They don’t like going out as much.” Or, “They like to be around people all the time.” When you just use that lens on its own, when you bring it to any moment, it can help you understand people a little bit more. It can help you understand that they don’t want to hang out in big crowds for long times, but also, when they’re at home with a small number of people, it’s so energizing. To see that lens in each moment helps you understand their reactions.
People are different. Even with an introversion, there are so many differences and layers. What helps them? What kinds of situations are worth it? All those pieces. So, when you just start digging into that a little bit, you find so many nuances.
When we first came to unschooling and I first started thinking about this stuff, when my kids made different choices than me, it would not make sense. Like, “But, A, B, C, like of course D!” Until I actually started to look at them as a human being, as a whole human being, understanding that they are truly different from me and understanding that me reaching D as a conclusion and them reaching E as a conclusion are both absolutely fundamentally true. D would work better for me and E would work better for them. So, now how can we work together and find an F that has enough of D and enough of E that we’re all pretty happy with this plan? And off we go down the F path.
And then, like you were talking, layer after layer after layer. There is just so much that makes up a human being that can be different from us, and it just helped me not be frustrated, not feeling like, oh, I need to explain this again, because they must not be getting it, because it makes utter and complete sense to me.
ANNA: Right. I think that’s what I love about it. And we get at it at different ways, but I feel like this is a really quick thing that comes to mind that pulls me to a place of curiosity, because if I find myself feeling frustrated or like, why are they making that choice? Or if I start taking something personally about the way somebody’s doing something, I can quickly go, wait a minute! Is this a “people are different” thing? And I can just pause a second and give a little bit of space to bring curiosity to it.
Because I think we really do so quickly go to thinking that everybody sees the world the same way that we do, and that, “Of course that would be the solution!” And so, yes, over the years we’ve kind of dabbled around these things. “Oh, well, but I’m an introvert and I have this friend that’s an extrovert and she does things differently than I do,” but it’s so much deeper than that. And I love that you touched on it, Erika, too, that we all bring our past traumas, our past history, our past learning. So, it doesn’t even have to be trauma, but a lot of us have some trauma that we’re bringing into the moment. But it’s just our experiences. What was our family like? Where did we grow up culturally? What did we learn?
And it’s so interesting when you start having these conversations with people, because it could be things that you wouldn’t even think would be at odds. I was talking to a Network member friend about this, and she really loves walkable cities. And she just said it to me, “But if everybody could live in a walkable city, they would see how amazing it is!” And I’m like, no. I’m like, “If everybody could live in the woods, they would see how amazing it is!” And so, we just laughed about it, because we both are so passionate about the things we’ve learned about ourselves.
And I think it ties in with our unschooling journey so well because that’s the environment we want to create, where our kids can learn these things about themselves, have this self-awareness that it took a lot of us a long time to figure out. Because I pushed through a lot of things about myself, because it didn’t maybe fit the mold. And so, then it takes time to realize what’s true for us. And so, I love that environment where we can learn what we like and don’t like, what works for us and doesn’t work for us. How we process something, what we need to be able to process something. Do we need quiet? Do we need noise? Do we need headphones? Pam wears headphones and thinks about things. That’s amazing to me. I cannot have multiple inputs like that as I’m trying to form a thought. I love music and headphones, but not for when I’m thinking or working.
So, you can go, “Oh, my kids are listening to music, but I see them doing something.” And for me, before this understanding, I might’ve gone, “They’re not doing anything productive. There’s no way they could be because they’ve got headphones on.” And then I meet Pam and she’s like, “I need to have music going, or other things happening.” And it’s like, oh my gosh, how cool. And so, in that little example that I gave, what I want to watch there is my judgment about it. I want to watch my judgment about someone else, because if I bring curiosity, then I can learn more. “Tell me about that. Do you love listening to the music when you’re doing it? What are you listening to? What feels the best?” And then we connect.
ERIKA: I love it so much. And I think we could come up with a million little tiny examples like that. I’m just thinking with the noise and having some sounds going on. Maya says that same thing. She’s like, “It’s too quiet in here. I just need some sounds going on.” And for me, it’s the opposite. But it’s the same thing in so many different areas. And so, one way to approach that with curiosity is to do that paradigm shift of “there’s no one right way.” Because we can get stuck there, like, “I figured out the right way.”
Here’s another, more hormonal example. At night, it’s cold. That’s my experience. In the morning, it is hot. That’s also my experience. Now, Josh, he has a completely opposite experience at night. He is dying of heat, but I could try to convince him that doesn’t make sense. It’s cold at night and it gets hot in the morning. And he’d be like, no, that makes no sense. And so, realizing that’s my experience, what I’ve learned from my own life is there is not the one right way.
It helps our relationships so much, because it helps us to assume positive intent about another person. It helps us to put our picture of them into greater clarity if we can be open and curious about what they’re telling us about their own experience, rather than going straight to shutting it down by saying, “But I have already figured it out and I already know what’s right.”
And so, anything from tiny things like, we’re going outside and they’re saying they’re not hot and I’m saying I am. I mean this temperature difference, it’s seems like a small thing, but it can cause fights in families. Because yeah, we think that our experience should be everyone’s experience, but you could see that could ripple out to what people should eat, the way that they should have their room organized, how they should be spending their time, what time they should wake up, what time they should eat, just every little thing. It’s like, what if we could just be curious about, how does it feel to you? What is your experience in this area?
PAM: Yes. I love that, because, for me, the hot/cold is a great example, because that almost feels like a fact. Somebody comes back to us, “I’m cold, people! How can you not be cold? There’s something wrong with you.” And I think that one of the shifts that helped me was, like you were saying, assuming positive intent. They’re not trying to judge me just because their answer’s different. It doesn’t make me wrong. I don’t have to defend myself. I don’t have to get defensive about it. I can be curious about it. It’s like, wow. This room feels so different to each of us. And that is something that we laugh a lot about here, because I run very hot and use no blankets, no nothing at night. And Rocco was all tucked in.
But the one I wanted to bring up, too, because examples are just so fun, this was one that was a really useful shift for me when I recognized it, and that was the internal processor and external processor. And that started even before I had kids. Coming to recognize, oh my gosh, how different is that? Somebody wants to talk through it and they’re not telling me what their answer is. They’re just telling me a whole bunch of ideas. It’s like, oh, I don’t need to go prep for that. Because for me, as an internal processor, for the vast majority of things, I’ll think about things, put on my headphones, have a good walk, have a good think. “Yeah, this makes sense, this makes sense, this makes sense.” So, by the time I mention it to somebody else, it’s like, let’s do this.
Whereas for other people, more external processors, they want to hear it. They want to maybe get some reaction. They want to talk about it with somebody else. Talk about the five different possibilities to eventually kind of land on the one. So, when they come out with something, I have to remember, it behooves me to save myself from future disappointment or frustration because I went off and did X, Y, Z to get everything ready for the thing. And they’re like, oh yeah, that was yesterday.
ANNA: What was that? Yeah. Right. I work with a lot of couples. And oddly enough, many internal processors marry or partner up with external processors. And this is a very new idea to a lot of people. They’re always so fascinated when I start to talk about it with them. But the key to this working is not taking it personally.
So, what can happen is the internal processor goes off to think about the idea that was presented and then the other person, whether this is a child or a partner that goes off, is thinking, “They don’t care about me. They don’t understand. They don’t think this is important. They’re not thinking about this.” Because to them, thinking about an idea and processing it and prioritizing, means talking about it. It means talking about all the iterations, all the different things.
For that internal processor when they’re being bombarded by that, they can feel like, you’re not giving me any time. Why are all these ideas coming out? You’re all over the board. And then they’re taking that personally. But as soon as we understand this about each other, and again, this is for kids and partners, it’s like, oh, okay. I need to give them a little bit of space. I presented them with this idea of, what we want to do this weekend? Or, what’s coming up? Or, do we want to try this as a family? Let’s give them some ideas. Because then they’ll come back. Then they’ll come back and want to have a conversation, but they need that time.
And when I talk to companies about this, it’s the same. For employers, you’re going to get the best out of your employees when you give them the time to process in the way that they need to process. If we push somebody to do it a different way, we’re not going to get their best, because that’s the whole point is that our brains work differently. And I think when we can celebrate that and not take it personally, it just really, really changes things. So, that piece of not taking it personally is so important.
ERIKA: Don’t take someone’s personality personally. Is that what people say? I love that so much. But that was reminding me about where some of this can come from. If you imagine someone creating a curriculum and they’re an external processor, they’re going to say, and then the students should externally process about this is the way that they’ll learn. You can see how that would totally happen, where it’s like., the way that you learn is by speaking your ideas out loud to someone and having them reflect back what they’ve heard. And it’s like, yeah, some people, for some people that works great. And then for others that will be so uncomfortable.
And so, I think the message that we can learn through mainstream culture can feel like, okay, we realize that there are differences in people sometimes, but we should try to fix that. Or we should figure out the best way and get people to fit into this mold of whoever is basically in power or in charge and what makes sense to them.
And so, we’ve had explorations about all these different personality things, like the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs test, the strengths finder, all these different things that give us more information about how our own brains work. And I feel like once we see, oh, people have come up with these different groupings and you can read them and be like, oh yeah, I’m not like that at all. But there are some people who are. Then it just expanded the possibilities in my mind of what is okay, what is possible, how people are, and it makes it feel like it’s easier to accept other people how they are and, like we were saying earlier, assuming positive intent about what they do.
PAM: Accept other people as they are. And also accept ourselves as we are. Because it’s like, oh, I keep trying to fix this, because everybody talks about how bubbly extroverts are just lovely, amazing. And I have bubbly extrovert friends. And also, it’s draining. And you absolutely want to do the thing, but you need the recovery time too. And you may feel bad about that sometimes. And so, seeing how different people can be helps me be like, oh, it’s okay for me to just be me. I don’t need to fix myself to be these different ways, because it’s just okay that we all are different.
And then one tool I wanted to bring up that I found really helpful, particularly with my kids is, there was always this phrase to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. And I would try to do that. And I found as I was doing that, as my kids left school, they were home more and I was trying to figure out all this, looking for the learning and the curiosity and what their interests were. And I would find myself putting myself in their shoes and I’m like, A, B, C, I would choose D. And I realized over time that it wasn’t so helpful for me to be in their shoes if I was trying to empathize with them and if I was trying to understand their choices. It wasn’t helping me understand their choices.
So, the little tool that worked for me was to see things through their eyes. And when I used that language for myself, it helped me remember to go into their brain and to remember what their interests were, to remember their personality pieces, to remember how their brain likes to immerse itself in things and how it processes, all these people that are different pieces. It reminded me to bring their pieces in, instead of my pieces. Because me stepping into their shoes was just me putting all my personality and brain into that situation, and of course I’m going to make different choices. But when I could look through their eyes and see what it looked like to them, I came to understand their choices so much better.
So, it didn’t seem like something out of the blue. It’s like, oh, of course that would look interesting. Of course, they would make this choice. It just really helped me better understand them. Then I could connect better. I could empathize with them. I could validate. I could support their choices with the understanding that me being a different person would make a different choice, but their choice makes complete sense for them. That was a really helpful to tool for me to kind of make that distinction.
ANNA: And I think part of that, and it’s kind of what you’re describing, but maybe a little bit different, is just it helps us communicate. So, we talk about narration a lot, but I think when we understand these differences, if I feel like I’m having trouble communicating with someone and maybe I can’t even pinpoint the difference, because I’m still locked into how I’m seeing the situation, I can step back and narrate a little bit to go, okay, so I’m not sure if this is how you’re seeing it, but here’s how it’s feeling to me and here’s what I’m thinking I need to do. It’s less threatening than me trying to direct us to do the thing. It’s opening up for them to say, “Oh wow, no, I don’t see it that way at all. I really think we need to do this,” and then we can have an interesting conversation. But I feel like we can’t even get to that place of communicating if we’re stuck in our story of, there’s one right way.
And I love that you mentioned that, Erika, because that’s the key, right? To know there is never one right way. And even with things that seem like, but what about this? Because, like you said, some of these things seem like facts, it’s cold. How is that not a fact? Well, bodies are different, you know? And so, it isn’t a fact. And so, I love that piece of just remembering there’s not one right way. We all are so different. So, I’m going to slow my communication down a little bit. I’m going to say a little bit more about what’s happening in my mind, especially with the people I want to be in close relationship with, because they’re going to learn more about me, I’m going to learn more about them, and we’re going to have a lot less headbutting as we’re trying to move towards something, because we’re slowing that down a little bit.
ERIKA: Yeah. I love that. And I think that slowing down is really key, because our go-tos are so automatic and so fast. It’s very easy to assume we’re all there, we’re all on the same page. We all got to the same conclusion. You know what I mean? And so, I was thinking that it can make you feel uneasy when you start to realize how different someone else who is close to you is from you. When we first have children, it might feel like they’re going to just be little me, they’re going to be like us. And as we start to learn how different they are, I think it can be a challenge at times.
But then, I can rewrite that story for myself, too. It’s not difficult. It’s fun and this is really what makes life interesting. It’s not about finding people who are exactly, precisely like me in every way in order to have met my match, or in order to get along. It’s more about having fun figuring people out and learning about each other and our differences. And just imagining that every person in the world is this complex, unique human being, it’s kind of exciting. But yeah, I can sometimes fall in that trap of like, I just want someone who understands everything about how I am. But it’s too complicated. There’s too much. But that’s okay. That’s just part of the richness of life, that everyone will bring all of their own things to every moment.
PAM: Like you said earlier, it’s that shift to getting curious. It’s giving ourselves that space for that shift, because yes, I think that can be so much about where we are in the moment, too, when things feel overwhelming. Oh my gosh, they just do this. Why this one? But we can take that moment to remember, people are different. And I think it helps, too, having worked through it. We’ve talked about this a lot before, like you said, how much fun it ends up being. How we end up in places that we, on our own, could never have imagined. And it’s super cool and fun, and my life is richer and my world is wider.
And yes, it took some energy and yes, maybe I don’t always have the capacity for it, but when I can do it, it is amazing and it’s worth the time to make that shift, to look through their eyes, to get curious about, why doesn’t that sound interesting? And knowing the personalities, that people are different. Because maybe you don’t ask your child, why is that interesting to you? Because it would feel judgmental just in the way that things are phrased like that. But last month in the Network, our topic was intentional language and that just reaches everywhere. Because people are different, words mean different things to them. There are so many layers to this.
ANNA: So many layers. And I’m going to bring the judgment piece back again, because I think it can be when we’re feeling judgmental about someone, we’re most likely here. We’re talking about our kids or our partner, but really anyone, it’s a really great time to pause and say, where’s that coming from? Because I would argue that probably a big chunk of the time, it’s coming from a belief that they’re not doing it the way we would do it. And then when we recognize, oh, there isn’t the one right way, people are just different. I mean, gosh, letting go of that judgment is so valuable to relationships because it really is so surprising to the person on the other end. Because their way of processing and working has been working for them all these years. And now you’re coming in saying it’s wrong and passing judgment. It’s surprising. And so it can be disconnecting.
And so, I think it’s just so important when those little red flags of, like, am I being frustrated by this conversation? Or am I not understanding something? Or am I passing judgment about something?That’s when I want to stop and change that lens. Bring this people are different lens, bring that curiosity, because it really just makes such a difference.
And when we think about our kids, if we’re judging how they’re spending their time or how they’re moving through their day, this came up with another person not too long ago where, I think they were judging the way the kids spent the day, because they were thinking, “What would I do if I had this free environment? This free environment where I didn’t have to go to school?” And they were putting their child self in this environment that they had created thinking these are all the things that I would do and it would be amazing. And the kids were not doing any of them. “They’re over there doing this thing that I don’t like at all.” But it’s like, oh, but this is what they’re doing with the freedom. This is what they are being drawn to in this moment.
And so again, when we see ourselves like bringing that judgment lens, it’s like, can we let that go and just go, huh, I’m curious about this? I want to understand and recognize that might be what I would do, but it’s not what they’re doing and there’s really good reason for that because we’re all so very different.
ERIKA: Yeah, it’s like when we’re thinking, “Well, you should,” just any “should,” like they should do this. He should do that. That’s a really good little red flag, because it pops into my head all the time. I think it’s a really natural thing to think, because I have good ideas about what I would do and so then it just feels like, and they should as well, but that would be a good red flag to catch.
And then I wanted to mention a little a-ha moment I had with Josh. So, my husband and I have different personalities. We have a lot in common, but there are a lot of big differences. And so, one of the things is, he was talking about his frustration with some people at work, and he’s just like, people just want to be happy. I don’t understand why they’re making these choices or whatever. And so, his big belief about the world is that all people, their main thing is that they want to be happy.
And I was like, okay, but that’s your belief about the world. Not everybody’s number one thing is to be happy people. Their number one thing may be to make an impact on the world. Some people, their number one thing is to be safe. There are so many possible different number one things, but from his perspective, it’s like, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would anyone not that number one thing to be happy, have fun, and just be happy. And so, it sounds really good to him. That was an a-ha moment, I think, for both of us being like, okay, so that’s why some of these behaviors of other people just make no sense and can be so frustrating.
And it also goes a long way to explain why he would make the choices he makes in his life. And so, I think that if you’re a curious sort of person and interested in diving deeper into these personality things, like asking those questions of yourself, like what are those core, important things to me? And then just ask other people like, what are the things for you? Because I just think you’d be really surprised by how different even people who you get along really well with, even people who you have these close relationships with, just how different people are.
PAM: Yeah. And being a partner. Because it’s been forever and it’s very typical. Anyway, it is like the way you pack the dishwasher, it’s like there’s one way, there is one right way. It’s like, but this is the most efficient, and so, I think it’s super fun. That’s when we’ve been going back and forth. It’s there’s not just one way. And so, if you like it this way and that’s super important to you, I’ll keep my hands off it.
But the interesting piece, I think, for me, too, is just to open that up for ourselves, to recognize, does this feel like I’m doing this the one right way? It ties in with what you’re saying here. This is the one way for me. Why is that? What are those pieces that feel really good when I put this dish here and this dish here? And why do I put knives this way or this way, or whatever it is. What is it that’s feeling good about the thing that I’m doing that feels good for me?
Which then opens up that lens to, oh, like that really aligns with my personality, with who I am as a person, with the way I like to do things. And that helps me recognize through that people are different lens that other people, some people don’t have efficiency at the top of their list.
There are just so many different lenses. It doesn’t have to be the fastest way. It doesn’t have to be the shiniest way. And that gets us to recognizing the messages, too, that we’ve absorbed, the whole cultural productivity efficiency. That is a shining gold star that one must shoot for throughout anything that you’re doing during the day. And it’s just so fascinating. I think it can be helpful for us to observe that in ourselves. That helps us peel it back or knock away a little bit again so that we can recognize it’s not just one right way.
ANNA: And I think that speaks to what Erika said, where school is kind of trying to force us to that one place. And so, I think it’s really interesting to actually do some introspection about, okay, is that priority that I’ve set here really about how my brain works and how I work, or is it what I think I’m supposed to do? Because that’s a whole other layer of it. But, right, I love the dishwasher example, and it reminded me of a friend that, I mean, this is even hard for me to say these words. Okay. So, she would take the utensils from the dishwasher and just dump them in the drawer. Just dumped ’em all in the drawer. And so, you would just open the drawer and you’d fish around to get out a fork or whatever. This is very stressful for me and I don’t feel like I’m overly organized, but I’m like, I want the forks in the fork area, want the knives in the knife area. But it was so not a priority for her. She just was like, but why would you waste your time doing that when you could be doing fun things?
I’m guessing she probably has that Josh and David thing. Like why when you could be doing fun things? And I’m like, oh. But I don’t see it as a waste of like, it just doesn’t seem like it takes that much time. But again, this piece of people are different, we just prioritize things differently. There are just different things. And our priorities can change. There may be a time when there’s a lot going on in my life where I really do need some calm, clean surfaces, or I need a little bit less stimulation, and then other times where I’m fine. And so, that’s where, if we can keep that curiosity, we can keep that open communication going. We’re not taking it personally, we’re not getting frustrated. We’re just recognizing that we’re all so different.
ERIKA: Yeah. And just how fast is it to just dump the dump that silverware in there! That’s really the fastest way! It hadn’t even occurred to me, but that is incredibly much faster than what I do. So funny. But they’ve never had problems with it. But if you do have the partner who wants to be super organized, like I fall into the trap sometimes of being like, he’s doing that because he doesn’t like me, because he doesn’t care about my feelings, is why he does it that way. You know what I mean? So, that’s the taking it extremely personally. I could be like, oh my gosh, she’s dumping all that silverware in there, because she doesn’t care at all about how I feel about the drawer. But it’s like, no, it doesn’t even occur to her.
ANNA: Right! I think that is such a fun example to end on, and that it’s fun to think about all the different ways that we’re different and all the different ways that we prioritize things. And that it isn’t saying something about someone else, it’s only saying something about us. And so, when we can stay there, gosh, it just really revolutionizes all the relationships.
PAM: All the relationships. It really does. Because then you can embrace and celebrate somebody else’s way of doing things and choices that they make without like feeling like you are wrong or that it says something about you. It’s like, this is so you and that’s amazing and I’m so excited that you’re discovering this and exploring, expressing whatever it is, whether it’s through actions, choices, dress, everything. And then I go back to, we’re all human beings. And we’re each one of us different and just keep peeling back those layers because every time someone’s like, huh, why? Oh, people are different. Let’s tap that for a little bit and see. Where does that lead me? Because oh, it leads beautiful places, doesn’t it?
ANNA: It really does. So, I’m excited for people to take this lens and see what happens. So, leave us some comments, reach out, and I just appreciate the two of you so much. I love talking about these ideas with you and thinking about all the different ways that it is valuable in our lives. And if you all listening love these conversations, we really would love to have you at the Living Joyfully Network. We have a lot of fun conversations and so many a-ha moments and it just fills me up so much.
So, you can find a link for that under the community tab at livingjoyfullyshop.com. Thank you so much for joining us today!
PAM: Have a great day. See you all later. Bye!
ERIKA: Bye!
EU368: Curiosity-Led Learning
Aug 15, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about curiosity-led learning. We thought this would be a fun topic to dive into during this back-to-school season! Focusing on curiosity—our own and our kids’—can be so grounding.
In this episode, we explore the definition of learning, how school-based learning looks different than learning through unschooling, and how we’ve seen curiosity at play in our families.
We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE
The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Unschooling Wobbles, coaching calls, and more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
ERIKA: Hello, everyone! I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello to you both. ANNA AND PAM: Hello! ERIKA: And before we get started, have you checked out LivingJoyfullyShop.com yet? Our online shop has Pam’s unschooling books, lots of helpful coaching options and online courses such as Four Pillars of Unschooling, which is great if you’re newer to unschooling and Navigating Unschooling Wobbles if you’re finding that back-to-school season has gotten you feeling unsure about things.
We also have courses on validation and on navigating conflict. You can also learn more about the Living Joyfully Network there. We’re so excited to be creating a one-stop shop to support you along your unschooling journey, and we hope you’ll check it out. Pam, would you like to get us started with our topic for today, which is curiosity-led learning?
PAM: Yes, I would love to! Because I feel like this is one of the first big paradigm shifts that people encounter and that I encountered when I began exploring unschooling in earnest. But even if you’ve been unschooling for years, I would not be surprised of just listening in on this conversation reveals yet another layer that you can peel back around the value of curiosity-led learning.
Like, “Oh, it applies here, too.” I’m still getting those little layers. As you encounter it out in the wild in our lives, there’s always, always more layers.
But culturally, the message is that learning must be led by curricula, that there’s a step-by-step, linear process that needs to be followed for “real” learning to happen, and that learning is hard, that it’s challenging. Here’s the next step. Learn this. Here’s the next step.
And what unschooling does is encourage us to ask ourselves, is that the only way to learn? Because some people pick things up that way. We all went through school that way, and we learned what we did. And then it’s always fun to look back and think, how much did I remember? How do I define learning? Is that really learning? If really I can just do it on a worksheet, but I have no idea how to bring that into my days and into my life? It is just a beautiful, beautiful paradigm shift when you start looking, oh, are there other ways to learn? Is this other learning that I’m doing just because I love this thing, does it discount the learning I’m doing about it? If it’s not hard, is it learning? There are just so many ways to look at it. And then when we give ourselves enough space to start questioning it and start looking at, okay, well, I know this was really fun, but I have been learning lots and it’s been useful learning for me, does that count? And just start looking at it through that lens and recognizing things like, oh my gosh, it doesn’t feel hard. Even though you may notice other people saying, “Oh my gosh. How did you learn all that? That depth of knowledge,” et cetera. And they’re talking about it being difficult, whereas it feels much easier to us because we were interested in it in the first place because our curiosity was guiding us and we’re like, oh, yes, I want more. I want more. I want more.
When we start to notice all those little different aspects of it and start to bring that all together, we start to play with, what does curiosity-led learning look like? And wow, it’s pretty darn amazing. It really is valuable. It’s like all the things. And we can start to replace what is curriculum-led, what somebody else thinks we should be learning with what we’re interested in learning. And it just opens up this whole box. It’s just removes the box on what learning can look like for us. Can’t it?
ANNA: Yeah. For me, I think what’s so interesting is I feel like this is actually the natural process, how we all, as adults learn. Like, “Okay, there’s something that I want to do and so what do I need to know in order to do that thing?” And so, then it’s the relevant pieces that maybe I want to take up this hobby and I need to learn this, or maybe I want to take this particular job and gosh, I better learn these things. But it’s so relevant. So, for me it’s about bringing that “relevant” piece to it.
And you kind of mentioned this, where the retaining comes in, because when it’s something that we’re using every day or is relevant to something that we’re interested in, we actually do retain it, because we’re practicing, we’re using, we’re tweaking all the time. And so, I think that piece is so interesting that school has kind of separated that and made it very irrelevant.
So, we’re learning and putting things on a piece of paper. We don’t really understand why. And so, what I learned in school was really how to do that, how to take and memorize information and give it to them in the form that they wanted. It’s interesting to me now as an adult, sometimes I’ll think about something that was covered in school and I’m like, that’s why they wanted that to be covered, but it meant nothing to me in the 30 years in between. But now I’m like, now that it’s relevant, I can go back and refresh. I don’t remember it from then, but I can go back and refresh. But I thought, oh, how interesting. Because somebody somewhere thought this was important in their life. And so, they wanted kids to know it. But I don’t feel like humans learn that way.
ERIKA: Right. It’s so interesting, isn’t it? I just feel like what has happened is that the way that schools do things has become the definition of what learning is, but if you really think about it, it doesn’t work. Our brains do not work that way. But if we think learning is, someone tells you what you need to know, it’s in this order, it’s these important things, these facts at this age, whatever, then the curiosity part, it never even gets looked at or considered. It’s not even a consideration at all.
But we know from ourselves, from watching our kids, just from looking at people, like you’ve seen the glazed-over eyes of kids in class. Certainly. I mean, certainly over the years I have seen that as a teacher and I’ve seen it as a student and information is not getting in there. So, as far as just choosing to teach someone something that they’re not interested in, that’s not causing learning to happen. And so, I really think we need to just change the definition. Don’t call it learning if all you’re doing is having someone lecture to someone else about something that they don’t want to know. That’s not learning.
And so, I feel like a lot of the “learning” that I did in school was that temporary, memorize it, cram it in my brain, get it out onto the paper for the test, and then it’s gone. And so, now I can look back and just be like, what was the use of that time for me, other than, like you said, learning to memorize, learning to take tests, that kind of thing?
Thankfully, when I was in school, I was so interested in doing well in school, that that itself kind of became my interest. And so, learning the things in class to do on the test, that process was more my interest, because I wanted to get the good grades. My kids do not have this personality. And so, with them, it just has to be curiosity-led. I can’t see another way. They don’t want to learn things that they’re not interested in. And so, then the fun part is then how fun, natural, easy, all the things, they will dive so deeply into things that they’re interested in. And so, now I see it as the only way for learning to happen is through curiosity.
PAM: Yeah. It’s really how you define learning, right? Is learning the regurgitation piece for the grades, is it the retention piece we’ll get to? And for those peeling back more layers, do we even need to look at learning? That’s a topic for another conversation. But there were two or three pieces that I really wanted to pull out, Erika, from what you said there. One was, let’s call it something else. And you know what popped to mind was, let’s call that teaching. Just because teaching is done doesn’t mean learning is happening. Teaching is somebody else telling people, you’re going to know this and this is the process to get this answer, and this is a noun, etc. And so, the teaching happens whether or not the learning happens, like you’re saying, Erika, I love the distinction of, what came to be my interest was getting good grades, which is then again, another conversation. But that is what helped you move through the school process, exist in that environment, take stuff in from the teaching, and then spew it out on the test for the grades. Totally, totally fine.
And what is super interesting, and what I found, like you mentioned too, Anna, is that the retention just isn’t there when you’re not using it or interested in it. Because for me, one of the big shifts with this shift to curiosity-led learning was looking at learning from my child’s perspective. That helped me start to recognize when it was actually learning I was talking about and not teaching. And to make that distinction between the two. Sometimes my kids are interested in learning something and want some information, but the interest is there first and then they’re going to soak it in. They’re going to ask questions. They’re going to ask, but, but why, but how? And then you get into that conversation, they pick up what they’re interested in. That helps them make that next connection and that next connection and then they move on. And it doesn’t have to be a week’s worth of worksheets and repetition, because they were ready to soak that in. And then the other piece that I really enjoy when I think about learning, because so much of the school as we were talking about, is that linear curricula. You learn this and then learn this and then learn this. Like, this is the best way to put this knowledge together. But my preference over the years has really become thinking of learning more as a web of connections of like, oh, there’s this piece and this piece and this piece. Because truly, when you break subjects down, there is really so much crossover in the real world. There is math all over the place. There’s math in poetry, in words, there’s math in geography. There’s just so much crossover. Once you start breaking them into the silos of subjects, you lose that richness, whereas when you’re following your curiosity and just seeing where it leads you, you may end up over in one subject for a couple of days and then back into another subject, but you are making connections between it all.
There’s just a much bigger, deeper richness to the learning that happens when you’re following the things that you’re curious about, the things that you’re interested in. It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to do the hard things. I think that’s one of the little stumbling blocks that can come up when people are first learning about, well, if we are just going to follow our interests, we’re never going to do anything hard, because if something looks hard, I’m not going to be interested.
Well, look at your kids. And actually notice, so often, when they’re frustrated, that’s because they’re wanting to do something that’s hard for them right now, but they want to do it, so they’re going to keep going. Even if you wish, like, okay, let’s go do something else for a while because you’re uncomfortable with the frustration. But no, there’s beauty in that frustration as well. And of course, we want to support, give space, hold all those pieces for them. But it’s not wrong to be frustrated. It doesn’t mean they’re not a good learner, because they’re frustrated. It means none of those things. It means, oh they’re really determined in this moment. And how can I help them, if they’re looking for some help, to start putting something together? What’s that little connection they’re missing in their web, right?
ANNA: Yeah. Something you said, Erika, it was about the learning. I think it’s really helpful if people find themselves saying things like, I don’t think they’re learning anything, they’re playing games all the time, or they’re building forts all the time, they’re not learning. I think this is really important to really ask yourself, what do I think learning means? Am I only looking at it through this lens of, “Well, they’re not sitting down doing fractions or times tables,” because really, learning as humans is so much broader than that.
And so, I loved how you pointed out that we’ve taken this system that’s really a subset and hasn’t always been around to define this concept that is just really innate to humans. We are just learning machines. How do we survive the day? How do we get through this? That is what we do. And so, I think when you hear yourself saying things like that go, oh wait a minute. What am I defining as learning and why? And this is important. There’s no right or wrong answer. It’s just a little examination. I think it’s important.
One of the things I also wanted to say was about the doing hard things, because we said it’s easier when it’s led by our curiosity. But it can be hard, right? It can be frustrating. It can take time. And that’s okay too, because what you’ll see is there’s this drive to figure out and sometimes walk away from it and then sometimes come back. But it’s just so much more natural and I love that.
And then another thing Pam reminded me of, so Pam is amazing at technology and systems and all of these things. I am not as much. I’m not terrible, but if you put me in that world, I’m not as good at it. And so, I really don’t retain all the, of all the different pieces, even about things I use pretty regularly, because it just isn’t a passion area for me. And so, I think it’s just knowing about ourselves and thinking, yeah, that’s kind of how it works. If I need to know, I can Google it. I can figure it out. I can ask Pam. She may be like, “She’s asking me again!” But it’s okay, you know? So, I think just thinking about how we do things and then recognizing that our kids are human, too, doing things, it can really help when we get stuck in this place.
ERIKA: Right, exactly. I just feel like once we start thinking about ourselves and how we actually really learn, it becomes this different way that we can look at our kids. And I think sometimes when we first go into parenting, first go into the idea of how children learn, it’s just old tapes of what we’ve been told over the years of, school is the place you learn. You have to know these things. This is what it should look like. And so, I loved my unschooling journey for that process of questioning that and being like, wait a second. If I can learn things, anything I want, now, they can also learn anything they want at any time. And there’s just a lot of freedom in that.
And then I was also thinking, a lot of people have had the experience, too, in school of like, maybe they do hit on a topic that you might be interested in, and then they say, that’s enough of that, let’s move on to something else. And so, that’s a really huge benefit of unschooling is just like, oh my gosh. I found something I want to do. Can I do more of this? And the answer’s always yes. And they can just dive as deeply as they want. And so, then we meet really interesting children who have so much knowledge in this one super deep area that’s just incredible. And so, they may not have all of their whatever other skills that the school would be looking for at that age, but they have spent their time learning about something that’s so important and interesting to them. And from there, whatever they want to do in life, it becomes obvious what they might be curious about next.
And so, I find that so much with my kids who are now young teenagers. They used to be so focused on certain things and then now it’s different. It’s like they’re in a new phase. They’re finding new aspects of life that now they’re curious about and interested in. Like, how am I going to manage to do this in my life? I want to do this and I know that I need to learn more things to get there. You know? And so, it’s just a very different way. I felt very directed down a path, but it feels like for them, they’re making a path and seeing where they want to go, and then telling me, “I really want to work on my handwriting because that would really help me with this.” And I’m just like, yeah, that makes sense. It’s a completely different approach.
PAM: I want to jump in, because that’s what was bubbling in my head. Erika, you nailed it. There is one thing when you’re making the shift away from curriculum and into curiosity and interests is, it’s fascinating to note how much of the curriculum, certainly in the younger years is skill-based, like reading and math and handwriting, like those skills, whereas that’s not really what you’re going to see very often in unschooling lives, because they’re following their interests.
But what they’re doing instead of learning the skill, like, two plus two is four, and then now let’s take that into the world. Here’s how to read beginner books, now let’s take that into the world. Our kids are, like you said, they’re doing stuff and they’re like, oh, hey, like I’m playing this game and I’ve got these boss statistics I need to manage. I’m going to figure out how those numbers are working and what formulas back there. Or I really want to read this forum and yes, my parents, somebody’s helping me read it for a while and then I’m starting to pick it up, or I’m wanting to try and read because somebody doesn’t have time to or isn’t able to read for me for 12 hours. All those pieces.
So, our kids are doing the things in the world and picking up the skills along the way. They’re not like, I want to learn the skill and now I can finally go and play that game. Or now I can finally go and read this book. Or the handwriting. Yes. Go Anna.
ANNA: Well, it’s exactly this though. I’m just going to take the next step. Because what’s so incredible about that is, if we are really true and really honest with ourselves, we don’t know what skills are going to be needed for the next generation and for five years from now and for 10 years from now.
Because I think about the books that were the standard when I was in school, they probably wouldn’t even believe it if kids today read some of the stuff that they thought we needed to know then. And so, what’s so great when it’s coming the other direction, they’re able to take it way further than this curriculum can lead them, because that’s actually pinning them in. But if they’re following interests and creating new things and making new discoveries, and then getting the skills along the way. Yes, those skills can be foundational, but because they’re foundational, they’re always going to learn them. They’re just going to learn them through something that’s interesting and maybe taking them way beyond what we could have done with the curriculum. So, I love that so much.
PAM: For me, that was another one of the huge shifts, right? It was truly just understanding that, oh, it’s not that I’m throwing out the curriculum, and they will never learn how to spell and they’ll never learn how to read and their math skills will be atrocious. Each of those things is so much bigger when you’re actually in the world. Back to what you were talking about at the very beginning, Anna, about just being in the world and living in the world, and we’re just picking up those skills. And yes, if they are actually foundational to living a human life wherever it is that we’re living, you are going to come across the need for them as you’re living.
ANNA: Absolutely. Right. That’s why they’re foundational. We don’t have to force it. And we don’t have to pull it out, because I feel like the way that schools can separate learning from life and reality almost makes it feel mysterious and difficult. Like, what does this mean? Why am I having to do it?
And like you said, the drills, the drills, the drills.
And what I found so interesting with my girls is, in our state at the time, we had to take a standardized test every couple years, I think. Maybe every year. It’s been a little while. But what was so interesting to me is they would be able to do all of these English things and looking at sentences and picking the right word. And I’m like, oh my gosh. I remember filling out those sheets with making the verb match the tense of the thing. And they never did that. They learned it from talking, being spoken to reading books, having books, read to them, playing games. They learned the language that was around them because they were in the world.
And I think that what’s empowering about that is I think they had a belief. I see it in them as adults, that they can figure things out, they can learn things. Whereas I think school kind of makes it mysterious, like, no, you have to be in this room and someone that’s an expert’s going to tell you, and then you’re going to have to really work hard and practice it to learn it. And I just don’t think that’s true. And so, what I love about unschooling is just that questioning. We can start questioning, is that true it? Does that make sense? Do I see that in my life as an adult? Does it really play out when I’m watching my kids organically learn? And that’s when I think things get really interesting.
ERIKA: I think the school model can just lead to people thinking that they can’t learn. Where really, it’s like, I can’t memorize stuff that I’m not interested in, which I think is just natural. Or like, I can’t memorize stuff that makes no sense to me and I can’t use it anywhere in my life. I think that’s reasonable, but to conclude that, then that means I can’t learn, it’s just so sad that that is the result of so much of school-style teaching.
I see it a little bit just culturally with my kids, where they’ll have some of these beliefs of like, I’m supposed to know this, or, well, in school they do this and I can’t do this, or I don’t know if I would be able to. And so, I mean, it’s interesting that those things still come up, even though they can make their own decisions and learn all kinds of things. And so, it’s just interesting to have those conversations with them about like, well, what are the things that you want to do? And thankfully, outside of school, there are an infinite number of ways to learn the things that they want to learn.
And so, we’re working through some new computer programs with Oliver and he took a look at one the other day and he was just like, I don’t think I can learn this. And I was like, it looks super overwhelming at first, but I’m sure that we can figure it out. Either someone who is an expert who could work with you on it or we could look up videos. There are just so many ways to learn.
I think, in some moments we run into those, “I’m not practiced at learning” kind of ideas that they have about it, but then it’s fun to point out to them, but that’s all you do. That really is what you’ve done your whole life. It just doesn’t feel like what it looks like in the stories or what you hear about with your friends who are in school.
ANNA: Right. And that what’s so important about that piece that you just puzzled there is, what I recognized was that my role was my energy about that. Because I think what can happen is, if you hear your child say, I don’t know how to do that, and this person knows how to do this and I don’t know how to do it, suddenly all of our tapes come and the mother-in-law’s tape and the thing going, oh, we failed them. We’ve done this. But really, it was just what you were saying. I was like, wait a minute. I’ve lived with you all these years. I’ve seen you learn things that I can’t even learn. Oh my gosh. We just need some different tools. If this is something you’re interested in now, then here’s the thing.
But they really look to me for my energy. So, if I brought heaviness about, oh my gosh, you don’t know how to do that and we better do this and that, or we need to jump back into that, I think it really would’ve changed that. And instead, it was just, like you said, just empowering them. Like, you are learning incredible things every day. You can learn whatever you want. Let’s figure out what you need and we’ll do it together. So, just watching that energy and making sure that I’m not letting the tapes from other people come into that relationship with my child.
PAM: Yeah. I think that’s definitely us doing our work and practicing, because, like you said, that just brings back all those messages. Oh, but if they were in school, they would’ve learned this in this grade and this in this grade, and taking that leap to the future as in how we learn as adults. And I think for me, the shift to just thinking of us all as human beings and wherever we are as a human being in this moment and what we’re interested in learning, and even if it feels overwhelming in the moment, like, oh my gosh, something I continue to do is use your time machine idea, Anna, which is when I’m something like, holy crap, I have no idea. I can just imagine in six months when I’m sitting here and just humming along, that’s going to be so cool. And that just kind of helps me take that next step. It’s like, oh yeah, give myself a bunch of time and I’ll just figure it out along the way. I’ll play with it. And that’s the way human beings learn, as you were mentioning earlier. So, to be able to take our messages and our fears around school and kids and to be able to just say, this is human beings and learning stuff. That helped me so much anyway to just move through those moments, because those cultural messages are everywhere. It’s not just that we learned them growing up and then now we have them. We also hear them all the time now. In this back-to-school season, we hear them even more. And it can have us questioning ourselves.
So, I think it’s so useful for us to do that bit of processing for ourselves, because as you said, Anna, the energy that we show up with can make all the difference. If we show up with, oh my gosh, something’s wrong, that needs fixing, or, oh my goodness, that looks like a lot of stuff to take in just one bite at a time, as they say, baby steps, whatever kind of language helps for them and helps for you as you move through it to remember like, this is just learning.
And I think it’s threaded through our entire conversation, but I don’t know that we’ve said it loud. We can learn something at every age. So, just because something in school is covered in grade four. I always go back to pioneer times, because that was when Joseph left school. That was one of the topics going on. It doesn’t matter at what age. It doesn’t even matter if, but whatever age something comes up about pioneer times, that that period of history, and they’re curious about it, they can learn it at any time. There is no need for it to be done at a certain age. You can see why that’s useful inside a school curriculum, because you don’t want like three years in a row for the teacher to love pioneer times, and they have to do it for three years in a row. They have to break it up that way, right? So, okay, this is the chunk. There’s often not much more logic than that. We’ve got this many years of history to cover, let’s do this much each year. Same with geography, same with so much of it, right? But we can learn anything at any age.
ANNA: Now I’m super curious what Canadian pioneer times are like. I’m going to have to look it up and learn at 55.
PAM: We loved visiting the Pioneer Village. I found it at the time because I was very new at unschooling and thought, well we can do this instead. This is how we can learn it, outside, because he was finding it interesting at the time. But it ended up being one of our favorite places to go as a family for the first two years. We got a park pass, so we could go any time. There’s no cars, so you could walk around. We would bring walkie talkies (before mobile phones) and play tag. Because we could all just be within this area and it wasn’t huge. We would give clues, I’m beside a big steeple, or I see horses, clues like that. And we would go and find each other and my gosh. We had so much fun in Pioneer Times for two years, like I said, at least. And we go back there just for the memories. We went a couple years ago. Anyway, so that’s funny. Exactly. Any age, any age.
ERIKA: And any topic! I love that so much. Well, this has been so much fun, as expected. We hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an a-ha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It is such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our own unschooling lives. You can learn more about the Network at livingjoyfully.ca/network or on livingjoyfullyshop.com. We hope to meet you there! And thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time! Bye!
Teachers Turned Unschoolers (EU282 Encore)
Aug 01, 2024
Let’s dive into a question I get pretty regularly, and that’s whether I have podcast episodes with unschooling parents that used to be teachers.
It’s fun to ponder the why behind the question. Does it seem like a strange leap to make? To me, choosing teaching indicates an interest in children and in learning, so to dive into that even more deeply with their own children through unschooling does seem like a rather natural next step to take.
But whatever the reason behind this pretty common question, the answer is a resounding yes! On the podcast to this point, there have been 22 guests who were, or are, teachers or university professors, who study education at the post-secondary level, or even teach education courses.
In this episode, I’ve gathered a few snippets from teachers turned unschoolers sharing about their experience and how that journey came about for them. It’s so interesting!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about the fears and doubts that come up at the start of the unschooling journey, the idea of wanting to measure success, and what to do when a child is interested in a topic that seems too grown up for them.
And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any given situation that will work for everyone. Instead, our focus is on exploring different aspects of the situation and playing with the kinds of questions we might ask ourselves to better understand what’s up. We’re sharing food for thought through the lens of unschooling.
QUESTION SUMMARIES
We had a quick first question from Sabrina who was looking for interviews with single parents who are unschooling. Pam put together a reference page with episodes to check out.
Our second question is from Erin in New Jersey. She wonders how to get past some of the doubts she has about unschooling and the judgmental opinions of family and friends in order to trust herself. She also mentions feeling a need to measure success when it comes to unschooling and isn’t sure if that’s okay.
Our third question is from Joy in Ireland. Her eight-year-old son has a strong interest in war, weapons, fighting games, and history. Some of what he wants to watch and play is rated PG-13, which feels like it might be unsafe for him. She sees him learning so much from his interest, but worries that he might be desensitized to violence and that the more mature content could be harmful.
Our final question is from McKinzie. She is a third-generation teacher and is finding deschooling and trusting unschooling to be difficult, despite wholeheartedly agreeing with the concept. She specifically feels like teaching math and reading could be important, because she doesn’t want to “leave it to chance.”
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating sibling and friend relationships, the idea of self-regulation when it comes to technology, and the journey of finding community and connection for ourselves and our children.
And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any given situation that will work for everyone. Instead, our focus is on exploring different aspects of the situation and playing with the kinds of questions we might ask ourselves to better understand what’s up. We’re sharing food for thought through the lens of unschooling.
QUESTION SUMMARIES
Our first question is from Alison. There are shifts going on with her daughters’ relationship with each other and with their mutual friends. She wants to stand up for her younger daughter when she is being excluded and wants to help them without being pushy.
Our second question is from Belinda in Canada. Her six-year-old son wants to use the iPad more than she feels comfortable with. She believes he can’t self-regulate and wants to protect him from spending too much time on the iPad, while also wishing she didn’t feel that way.
Our final question is from Amelia in Utah. Her five-year-old daughter’s friends are all starting school and so, she’s looking for ideas about finding support and connections with other unschooling families.
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
Exploring Unschooling Q&A (EU322 Encore)
Jun 20, 2024
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We talk about cocooning and connecting with young teens, the mainstream concept of productivity and how we get curious about external messages of judgment, and the idea of an “ideal unschooler.”
And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any given situation that will work for everyone. Instead, our focus is on exploring different aspects of the situation and playing with the kinds of questions we might ask ourselves to better understand what’s up. We’re sharing food for thought through the lens of unschooling.
QUESTION SUMMARIES
Our first question comes from the comments on our last Q&A YouTube video. The viewer is feeling disconnected from their young teen and worrying about the time he’s spending gaming.
Our second question from Maya is concerning the concept of productivity. She wonders why it feels difficult to release her judgments about productivity and laziness.
Our final question relates to curiosity. The listener wonders if people who are more naturally curious about a wide variety of topics make better unschoolers and whether there is something they can do to help their younger two children who seem uninterested in following those curiosity trails.
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.
Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?
We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!
So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.
Exploring Unschooling Q&A (EU314 Encore)
Jun 06, 2024
Anna, Erika, and I dive into listener questions! We explore technology and “screen time,” deschooling, connection, and validation. And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any given situation that will work for […]
EU367: The Abundance Mindset
May 23, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the abundance mindset. We often find ourselves thinking about abundance versus scarcity in conversations on the podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network. In this episode, we dive into the many ways that shifting to abundance has helped us and our families with creative problem solving. We […]
EU366: Talking Consent with Sara Davidson
May 09, 2024
Pam and Anna are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Sara Davidson to talk about what she’s been learning about consent. Sara was previously on the podcast in episode 312. It was great to hear her family updates and to dive deep into the topic of consent. We talked about four different types of consent, […]
EU365: The Independence Agenda
Apr 25, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into a very interesting lens on parenting—the independence agenda. It’s fascinating to see how this seemingly reasonable goal of fostering our children’s independence can get in the way of not only our relationship with them, but their developing self-awareness and inner voice. We talk about how different […]
EU364: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Including Kids in Decisions
Apr 11, 2024
We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about including kids in decisions. There are many reasons why parents may rush through big decisions without giving children a chance to weigh in, but we’ve found that including kids in decisions provides us with useful questions and information, helps […]
EU363: Deschooling
Mar 28, 2024
Deschooling is a bit of a buzzword in homeschooling and alternative education spaces at the moment. So, let’s dive in! Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about the definition of the word, what that transition to unschooling can look like for parents and adults, the importance of letting go of expectations, some of the paradigm shifts […]
EU362: On the Journey with Kendel Ricker
Mar 14, 2024
We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a delightful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Kendel Ricker. Kendel is an unschooling mom of two kids, 11 and 9, and she shared some of her journey with us. Kendel’s own education included homeschooling, private school, and public school, as well as university and […]
EU361: Siblings
Feb 29, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the sibling dynamic and some of the questions that come up when unschooling families navigate sibling relationships. We talk about letting go of expectations, watching out for casting our children in roles, understanding our own triggers, and how “fair” doesn’t mean “equal.” We hope you find our […]
EU360: What’s So Magical About Age 18?
Feb 15, 2024
What’s so magical about age 18? Pam, Anna, Erika, and our guest Erin dig into the transition from childhood to adulthood and what it means for our unschooled kids. It’s common for parents to bump up against some cultural beliefs about this phase of life and inadvertently put expectations on young adults. Strangers, friends, and […]
EU359: Unschooling Stumbling Blocks: Quitting vs Sticking It Out
Feb 01, 2024
In this episode, we are starting a new series called Unschooling Stumbling Blocks, where we talk about common challenges on the unschooling journey. For this first stumbling block, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about “quitting” vs “sticking it out.” This idea comes up in parenting regardless of whether you’re unschooling or not. Do we need […]
EU358: On the Journey with Jahaira Luzzi
Jan 18, 2024
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Jahaira Luzzi. Jahaira is an unschooling mom of two, ages 6 and 8, and a former early childhood educator. We talk about Jahaira’s path to unschooling, including her exploration of various types of elementary schools […]
EU357: Building Community
Jan 04, 2024
In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive deep into building community. As we regularly mention, people are different, and each member of your family will likely have different needs for community, friendship, and social time. We talk about in-person versus online connections, the value of interest-based communities, some of the many different ways we’ve […]
Harbor Highlights, Issue #1
Dec 28, 2023
Pam shares the first edition of Harbor Highlights, the new monthly audio dispatch she’s creating for her Patreon supporters. In it, she’ll be sharing the behind-the-scenes details of her next grand adventure! Listen in to learn more. And click here to join her on Patreon! Note that it’s only her Patreon page name that has […]
EU356: Unschooling “Rules”: About Food
Dec 07, 2023
We’re back with another episode in our Unschooling “Rules” series. And we use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something new, but we […]
Podcast Update, Nov 2023
Nov 27, 2023
Quick Links Check out the Black Friday-inspired bundle specials on the newly refreshed Living Joyfully Shop! Transcript Hello, everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I’m popping in to share a couple of bits of news with you. First is the Black Friday-inspired sale happening in the Living Joyfully Shop right now! It runs […]
EU355: Unschooling “Rules”: Freedom Leads to Self-Regulation
Nov 16, 2023
We’re back with another episode in our Unschooling “Rules” series. And we use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something new, but we […]
EU354: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschoolers Should Never Divorce
Oct 05, 2023
On this episode of the podcast, we’re sharing another entry in our Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
Redefining Success and Parent-Child Relationships
Sep 21, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a conversation I had recently for the Self Directed Podcast with Jesper and Cecilie Conrad. It was such an invigorating conversation that I asked if we could share it here as well and they graciously agreed. We dive into the art of fostering strong, respectful, and trusting parent-child […]
EU353: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschooling is Child-Led
Sep 07, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU138 Flashback: The Sparkle of Unschooling
Aug 24, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a compilation of experienced unschooling parents answering the question, “Looking back, what has been the most valuable outcome from choosing unschooling?” Another apt title might be Remembering Our Why, which is why we think it’s especially powerful to listen to during this back-to-school season. When we are able to […]
EU352: Unschooling “Rules”: Unschoolers Are Always Happy
Aug 03, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series. We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU351: Bringing It Home: Navigating Technology
Jul 06, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers have unlimited screen time, and exploring what it can look like to navigate technology with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about seeing through […]
EU350: On the Journey with Sarah McMackin
Jun 08, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Sarah McMackin. Sarah is an unschooling mom to Eamon, who just turned seven. She also runs a restaurant in Austin, TX with her husband, Ray. We talk about Sarah’s experience unschooling an only child, […]
EU349: Unschooling “Rules”: Unlimited Screen Time
May 25, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules” in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU348: Q&A Deep Dive
May 11, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Michelle in Texas. She writes, I listened to the episode with Xander regarding gaming, and it really helped change my perspective, especially during this unschooling phase. The question that keeps coming for us is definitely fear-based, but for good […]
EU347: Bringing It Home: Staying Up Late
Apr 27, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers don’t have bedtimes, and exploring what it can look like to navigate staying up late with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about seeing […]
EU346: On the Journey with Cassie Emmott
Apr 13, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Cassie Emmott. Cassie is an unschooling mom with four children with diverse needs. She shares her path to unschooling and some insightful reflections about parenting and deschooling. We talk about navigating challenging seasons and […]
EU345: Unschooling “Rules”: No Bedtimes
Mar 30, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a new episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU344: Q&A Deep Dive
Mar 16, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Julie in Ontario. She writes, How would you encourage parents to best unschool themselves? I’d really like to be a better example of someone who follows their passions. My husband would love to do a job more suited to […]
EU343: Bringing It Home: Navigating Lessons
Mar 02, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re diving into another Bringing It Home episode. We’re looking deeper at our last Unschooling “Rules” topic, that unschoolers don’t use curriculum, and exploring what it can look like to navigate lessons and adult-led activities with our unschooling families. Unsurprisingly, there is no one right approach. It’s so much about […]
EU342: Helping Kids Find Their Passion
Feb 16, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing a talk that Pam gave at the 2022 Canadian Online Homeschool Conference, Helping Kids Find Their Passion. Following our children’s interests and passions is one of the joys of unschooling. And truly, humans are born curious. As parents, we can give our children the gift of encouraging that […]
EU341: Unschooling “Rules”: Don’t Use Curriculum
Feb 02, 2023
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing our second episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning […]
EU340: On the Journey with Nora McDonald
Jan 19, 2023
This week, we’re back with another On the Journey episode. Pam, Anna, and Erika are joined by Living Joyfully Network member Nora McDonald. Nora is an unschooling mom of two living in Costa Rica. She shares her journey to unschooling as well as two major a-ha moments she has had in the last year. We […]
EU339: Q&A Deep Dive
Jan 05, 2023
In this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Jessie in Colorado. She wants to explore a quote from Free to Learn that took her off guard, which is: One proviso, though. Unschooling won’t work well if you actively avoid having your family interact with the world, with […]
EU338: A Conversation with Lore Blancke
Dec 08, 2022
This week, we’re sharing a conversation Anna Brown and I had recently with Lore Blancke on her podcast, Intimate Breath. Lore came across unschooling and the Exploring Unschooling podcast and was intrigued by the similarities she found with her work as she listened. And while she’s not a parent herself, her enthusiasm was apparent when […]
EU337: Bringing It Home: Yes Energy
Nov 24, 2022
This week on the podcast, we’re sharing our first Bringing It Home episode. In this series, we’re going to dive even deeper into the topics that we explore in the Unschooling “Rules” series, with an eye to showing how these concepts come up in our real lives and the many possibilities for how to approach […]
EU336: On the Journey with Josh Ellis
Nov 10, 2022
This week, we are excited to share our first episode in our new On the Journey series! Anna, Erika, and I are excited to bring guests on the podcast to share their experiences. We’ll be talking about paradigm shifts, a-ha moments, challenges they’ve faced, and realizations they’ve made on their unschooling journey. In this episode, […]
EU335: Unschooling “Rules”: Always Say Yes
Oct 27, 2022
This week, I’m excited to share our first episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series! We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something […]
EU334: Q&A Deep Dive
Oct 13, 2022
In the intro, I share my new vision for the podcast: helping people figure out how to apply bigger picture unschooling ideas in their everyday lives. I want to help listeners explore how these big unschooling ideas work on a more practical level. In real life, with the real people that make up our family. […]
EU213 Flashback: Unschooling and Math with Marcella O’Brien
Oct 06, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a popular episode from early 2020 with unschooling mom Marcella O’Brien. Marcella’s grown sons, Jack and Sean, have also joined me in Growing Up Unschooling episode 181. Marcella’s experience as a public school teacher and math tutor gives her a unique perspective, which led to an interesting conversation about math in […]
EU239 Flashback: Unschooling Dads with Roop Bhadury
Sep 29, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a fun conversation I had with unschooling dad Roop Bhadury. I connected with Roop through his wife Susan, who is a member of the Living Joyfully Network. She has also joined me on the podcast in episode 220. Roop and Susan live with their now three young children in Australia. It […]
EU119 Flashback: Gaming and Growing Up Unschooling with Xander MacSwan
Sep 22, 2022
I get so many questions about “screen time” and video games and how they fit into an unschooling life, so I thought it might be helpful and fun to reshare a conversation I had with Xander MacSwan in 2018. Xander left school in the 5th grade when his parents—both professors in the University of Maryland’s […]
EU111 Flashback: Ten Questions with Jan Fortune
Sep 15, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a conversation I had with Jan Fortune back in 2018. Jan home educated her four children in the UK and wrote many articles and five books on unschooling and parenting. Her book Winning Parent, Winning Child, focuses on living with children in ways that respect their autonomy. In our conversation, Jan shares […]
EU207 Flashback: Advice from Grown Unschoolers
Sep 08, 2022
It’s compilation episode time again! This week, I’m sharing one of our listener favorites from 2019, a collection of conversations with grown unschoolers in which they offer their thoughts for newer unschooling parents. I’ve woven together answers from eleven episodes featuring twelve grown unschoolers. I think you’ll find their answers helpful and enlightening wherever you […]
This week, we’re revisiting a popular compilation episode from last year. Many people have asked me whether any former or current teachers have been interviewed on the podcast. And the answer to that question is a big YES! We have had more than 20 podcast episodes featuring guests who were or are teachers or university […]
EU333: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Aug 25, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about the fears and doubts that come up at the start of the unschooling journey, the idea of wanting to measure success, and what to do when a child is interested in a topic that seems too grown […]
EU332: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 3
Aug 18, 2022
This week, I’m sharing the second part of my recent conversation with Jae Williams (you can listen to the first half here). Jae is a former teacher and new unschooling dad of two young children. We first spoke about a year ago, right at the start of his deschooling journey. It was great to catch […]
EU331: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 2
Aug 11, 2022
Jae Williams is a former teacher and new unschooling dad of two young children. I first spoke to Jae when he was about two months into his unschooling journey, in episode 290. It’s been a year now and we had so much to catch up on! Jae and I talked about the inner work of […]
EU330 Bonus Episode: A Peek Inside the Living Joyfully Network
Aug 08, 2022
I’ve mentioned the Living Joyfully Network online community here and there on the podcast over the last couple of years, sometimes sharing the theme we’re exploring that month or testimonials from members. But I feel like that doesn’t actually say much about what we get up to in this rich and vibrant community. So, for […]
EU023 Flashback: Learning to Read in Their Own Time with Anne Ohman
Aug 04, 2022
Anne Ohman is a long-time unschooling mom of two grown children. Back in 2016, Anne and I had a lovely conversation about reading that I have referenced countless times over the years. When we spoke, she was working as a library director, giving her powerful insights and amazing stories to share about children learning to […]
EU154 Flashback: Unschooling Dads and Documentaries with Jeremy Stuart
Jul 28, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few years ago with unschooling dad and filmmaker Jeremy Stuart. Jeremy directed and co-produced the documentary film, Class Dismissed, which was released in 2015. Since then, it has been screened in more than 60 countries and translated into five languages. His second documentary, Self-Taught, which explores the […]
EU038 Flashback: Time to Think
Jul 21, 2022
This week, I want to share one of my conference talks, Time to Think. So many of the questions and concerns we hear from unschooling parents boil down to the fears that bubble up when we project our current situation into the future. So, it’s not surprising that the value of bringing ourselves back into […]
EU090 Flashback: Growing Up Unschooling with Phoebe Wahl
Jul 14, 2022
This week on the podcast, I’m sharing a conversation I had with grown unschooler Phoebe Wahl a few years ago. Phoebe is an artist whose beautiful work focuses on the themes of comfort, nostalgia, and intimacy. After first grade, Phoebe left school and dove into unschooling. She graduated from Rhode Island School of Design in […]
EU329: Unschooling Stories with Jennifer McGrail
Jul 07, 2022
Jennifer McGrail, long-time unschooling mom of four, joins me on the podcast this week. I last spoke with Jennifer on the podcast in episode 18 and her kids have grown a lot since then! Jennifer shares a family update and we dive deep into how parenting and unschooling change as teenagers transition into young adults. […]
EU007 Flashback: Diving into Parenting with Anna Brown
Jun 30, 2022
This week, we’re going alllll the way back to episode 7 to revisit a wonderful conversation I had with Anna Brown about parenting. I had been inspired by one of Anna’s conference talks and was so excited to dive deeper into these concepts with her. We talked about uncovering underlying needs during conflict, validation and […]
EU027 Flashback: Ten Questions with Teresa Graham Brett
Jun 23, 2022
This week on the podcast, we’re revisiting a conversation I had with Teresa Graham Brett back in 2016. Teresa is currently the associate dean of diversity and inclusion at the University of Arizona’s College of Veterinary Medicine. She’s an unschooling mom of two and author of the book Parenting for Social Change. Teresa’s background as a […]
EU042 Flashback: Curious and Engaged
Jun 16, 2022
This week, I’m re-sharing one of my conference talks, Curious and Engaged, with you! Here’s the description: Our conventional society honours learning deeply, yet its definition has steadily narrowed over the years to checking off curriculum expectations and awarding graduation certificates. Does this restrictive view do learning justice? What if real learning is bigger than that? […]
EU116 Flashback: Growing Up Unschooling with Summer Jean
Jun 09, 2022
Back in 2018, I spoke to Summer Jean about her experience growing up unschooling. We talked about how her mom came to unschooling, how they dealt with disapproval from extended family members, how her interest in glass art came about, and some of the common questions she gets when people learn she didn’t go to […]
EU328: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Jun 02, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating sibling and friend relationships, the idea of self-regulation when it comes to technology, and the journey of finding community and connection for ourselves and our children. As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone […]
EU084 Flashback: Enjoy Parenting with Scott Noelle
May 26, 2022
This week on the podcast, I’m sharing a conversation I had with Scott Noelle, unschooling dad of two, back in 2017. Scott is an author and a life coach dedicated to supporting parents who want to move away from control-based parenting methods. He founded The Daily Groove, an email newsletter and website where he shared […]
EU125 Flashback: Challenges on the Unschooling Journey
May 19, 2022
This week, we are revisiting the first compilation episode I ever created for the podcast! I gathered clips from fourteen different episodes where I asked some version of this question: “What has been one of the more challenging aspects for you on your unschooling journey?” It is so interesting to hear a wide variety of different […]
EU238 Flashback: Deschooling with Jessica Kane
May 12, 2022
This week, I’m sharing a lovely conversation I had with Jessica Kane in 2020. Jessica and her husband live in Ireland and have three children. Her oldest attended school through high school, her middle son left school in grade 4, and her youngest son has never been to school. This gives her such a unique […]
EU037 Flashback: Ten Questions with Carol Black
May 05, 2022
In 2016, I asked Carol Black ten questions about her unschooling journey. Her two daughters were then 22 and 26. We talked about her documentary, Schooling the World, as well as her popular essay, A Thousand Rivers. Carol approaches unschooling and parenting from a cultural lens, through which she’s made many valuable connections and insights. […]
EU327: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Apr 28, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about navigating a dyslexia/dysgraphia diagnosis, sharing unschooling information and parenting ideas with grandparent caregivers, and the mental overwhelm that can occur at the beginning of the deschooling journey. As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone […]
EU326: Walking Together: Seeing the World through Your Child’s Eyes
Apr 21, 2022
This week on the podcast I share a talk I wrote in 2015, Walking Together: Seeing the World through Your Child’s Eyes. In this talk, I dive into some of things I’ve learned on my unschooling journey about the value of walking together through our days with our children. I touch on: ways to shift and […]
EU325: Unschooling through Menopause with Sara Yasner
Apr 14, 2022
Sara Yasner joins me on the podcast this week. Sara is an unschooling mom of three and we talk about unschooling alongside her experience going through menopause. Sara’s two sons are older now, but her daughter, Pamela, is nine. We talk about her family’s flow and how the addition of Pamela shifted things for everyone […]
EU324: Open and Queerious with Ellie Winicour
Apr 07, 2022
Ellie Winicour joins me on the podcast this week! Ellie, her wife Jodi, and 8-year-old Celia have always unschooled, following Celia’s interests and flow. Ellie shares some of her experience embracing pretend play and the deep connection that comes from stepping away from the mainstream adult-child power dynamic. She also shares how she has intentionally […]
EU323: Spinning a Web: The Art of Learning
Mar 31, 2022
This week on the podcast I share a talk I wrote in 2014, Spinning a Web: The Art of Learning. With unschooling, learning often looks very different than what we’ve been taught to expect, so it can take a while to recognize it in action. And then it takes time to figure out how, as […]
EU322: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Mar 24, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about cocooning and connecting with young teens, the mainstream concept of productivity and how we get curious about external messages of judgment, and the idea of an “ideal unschooler.” As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving […]
EU321: A Passion for Creative Writing
Mar 17, 2022
This week on the podcast, I am joined by two teenage writers, Isabella Watkins and Caitlin Wharton, and their mentor, Milva McDonald. The three of them share their experience creating and participating in a homeschool creative writing group. This past year, they published an anthology of short stories and poetry and they describe some of […]
EU320: Amy’s Unschooling Journey with Amy Hughes
Mar 10, 2022
Amy Hughes, unschooling mom of eight children, joins me on the podcast this week. Over the years, Amy’s family moved from school to homeschooling to Charlotte Mason and finally to unschooling. She shares the big a-ha that led her to unschooling as well as how unschooling works in her large family. We talk about Amy’s […]
EU319: Unschooling Stories with Missy Willis
Mar 03, 2022
Missy Willis, a longtime unschooling mom of two, joins me again on the podcast this week to share more about her unschooling journey. We talk about the way that unschooling leads us to question everything, from conventional parenting and education to productivity and success. And we dive deep into a few common misconceptions about peaceful […]
EU318: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Feb 24, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We explore the idea of unschooling philosophy and strong beliefs, how gaming and unschooling might go together, and the idea of “self-directed” learning. And, as always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer, because there isn’t […]
EU317: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Feb 17, 2022
Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time, we explore unschooling in the context of boundaries, comfort zones, and capacity. This topic came up as we were diving into cultivating self-awareness in the Living Joyfully Network last month and we wanted to talk about it here too! Setting boundaries is a […]
EU316: Teens and Passions with Robyn Robertson
Feb 10, 2022
Robyn Robertson, unschooling mom of two, joins me again on the podcast this week. Since our last conversation in 2018, Robyn’s kids have grown! We talk about how unschooling changes when our children become teenagers. Robyn shares how supporting their interests and passions looks different now, but that the connection and relationships are still strong. […]
EU315: Nurturing Our Children and Ourselves with Teresa Hess
Feb 03, 2022
Teresa Hess, unschooling mom of three, joins me again on the podcast this week to explore how her unschooling journey has helped her not only nurture her children but re-parent herself. We talk about Teresa’s spiritual view of unschooling and the upward spiral of connection and love that happens when we see children as whole […]
EU314: Exploring Unschooling Q&A
Jan 27, 2022
Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me this week to dive into listener questions! We explore technology and “screen time,” deschooling, connection, and validation. And as I mention at the beginning of our conversation, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer. That’s because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any […]
EU313: Advice for New Unschooling Dads
Jan 20, 2022
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode with answers to a question I ask many of the unschooling dads who are on the podcast: As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just starting out on this journey? And I love the range […]
EU312: The Breadth of Unschooling with Sara Davidson
Jan 13, 2022
Sara Davidson, unschooling mom of two, joins me on the podcast this week to explore the breadth of unschooling. Sara shares her journey from controlling, conventional parenting to the connected relationships she has with her children now. We talk about many of the paradigm shifts she made along the way and how her entire view […]
EU311: Ten Questions with Erika Ellis
Jan 06, 2022
Erika Ellis joins me again on the podcast this week! On previous episodes, Erika and I have talked about unschooling book clubs and self care, but she’s back to share more about her unschooling journey. We talk about the paradigm shifts that she made during deschooling and how her and her husband’s teaching work influenced […]
EU310: Unschooling Through the Teen Years
Dec 30, 2021
We may have been unschooling pretty comfortably for years, connecting with our kids, having fun, actively supporting them as they pursue their interests, but then our eldest approaches the teen years and all of a sudden we start to feel a bit uncomfortable. We begin to worry. Is unschooling going to work through the teen […]
EU309: Deschooling with Christina Kauffman
Dec 23, 2021
Christina Kauffman is an unschooling mom of three young kids, and she joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. We explore both what she’s found challenging and what she’s found surprising so far. She also shares her experience with navigating sibling dynamics. We have a lovely conversation! Questions for Christina Can you […]
EU308: Unschooling Dads with Philip Mott
Dec 16, 2021
Philip Mott, a former teacher and unschooling dad to three young children, joins me this week. Philip shares how his unschooling journey began and how his experience as a teacher and what he learned about educational philosophy shaped his path. We talk about the challenges of deschooling and how ingrained our cultural beliefs really are. […]
EU307: How Unschooling Grows with Fran Liberatore
Dec 09, 2021
Fran Liberatore, unschooling mom of two and the creator behind the Instagram account Big Mothering, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey so far. Fran, currently working on her master’s degree in early years education, shares some of her reflections about educational philosophy and practice and how she hopes to see schools […]
EU306: Unschooling Seasons with Iris Chen
Dec 02, 2021
Iris Chen, author of Untigering and mother of two, returns to the podcast this week to share what their unschooling lives look like right now and talk about her book. Iris talks about her family’s experience with a self-directed learning center and the path her sons took to make the choice to attend one. We […]
EU305: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 7
Nov 25, 2021
This week, we’re finishing up my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. In chapter 8, Childhood is Bigger Than School, I explore how we can choose to embrace the unschooling mindset […]
EU304: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 6
Nov 18, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 7: Family Relationships. In this chapter, I explore moving beyond power struggles, the idea of fairness […]
EU303: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 5
Nov 11, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 6: Exploring Character. In this chapter, I dive into some of the character traits being explored […]
EU302: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 4
Nov 04, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 5: Cultivating Creativity. In this chapter, I dive into the widely accepted Geneplore model of creativity, […]
EU301: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 3
Oct 28, 2021
I’m continuing my miniseries, In Celebration of Unschooling, sharing the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting. This week, we’re diving into Chapter 4: The Joy of Learning. Things mentioned in the episode Pam’s Instagram, sharing highlights of the […]
EU300: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 2
Oct 21, 2021
To mark the occasion of hitting 300 episodes, I decided to share the draft of an as yet unpublished book I wrote a few years ago. The book looks at unschooling through the lens of parenting and with an audience in mind who are curious, but maybe haven’t yet made the leap. And I was […]
EU299: In Celebration of Unschooling, Part 1
Oct 14, 2021
Episode 299! Wow. For the last few weeks, I’ve been pondering what I’d like to do to mark the milestone of 300 episodes. Maybe a compilation episode, maybe a solo episode. Hmm. I’ve been doing those regularly for the last while (which I’m loving), so I planted that seed and let it bubble around in […]
EU298: Unschooling Stories with Megan Valnes
Oct 07, 2021
Megan Valnes, an unschooling mom of six, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey. Megan was on the podcast once before, way back in 2018, and it was so fun to catch up and see how her life has unfolded since then. She shares some of the challenges of having a large […]
EU297: Cultivating Trust with Anna Brown
Sep 30, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Cultivating Trust. This has been such a valuable theme to explore because trust really is foundational to unschooling—I can’t imagine unschooling thriving without trust! We begin by looking at how we can develop trust with our children, […]
EU296: Deschooling Discoveries
Sep 23, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode exploring deschooling discoveries. One of the many things I love about the unschooling journey is how unexpected it can be. As we dive deeper and deeper into deschooling, we begin to question so many things! Things we thought were pretty much facts—about children, about learning, about relationships, […]
EU295: Unschooling Dads with Jesper Conrad
Sep 16, 2021
Jesper Conrad joins me this week to talk about his experience as an unschooling dad. Jesper shares his perspective of their family’s decision to unschool, which began when their now 15-year-old son tried kindergarten. We talk about Jesper’s move from an office job to working from home and some of the paradigm shifts that he’s […]
EU294: Worldschooling Nomads with Cecilie Conrad
Sep 09, 2021
Cecilie Conrad joins me from Istanbul this week to talk about her unschooling, worldschooling life with her family. Cecilie shares about her path to unschooling, which started when her second child began attending school. We talk about how her family’s love of travel has enriched their lives and how the unschooling lifestyle fits so well […]
EU293: Raising Free People with Akilah S. Richards
Sep 02, 2021
Akilah S. Richards joins me again to talk about her most recent book, Raising Free People: Unschooling as Liberation and Healing Work. We talk about her definitions of unschooling and deschooling and dive deep into the far-reaching impacts of choosing an unschooling lifestyle. We also dive into some of the profound realizations she’s had about […]
EU292: Embracing Cocoons and Bubbles with Anna Brown
Aug 26, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our monthly theme in the Living Joyfully Network, Embracing Cocoons and Bubbles. It is part of the human experience to have periods of introspection, of pulling inward, processing, and integrating. Our children may lose interest in their usual activities while not yet knowing what’s next for […]
EU291: What to Do Instead of School
Aug 19, 2021
This week, I have a solo episode for you! As the back-to-school energy hits its peak this month, I thought it might be helpful to re-commit to our choice to NOT go back to school. It’s completely understandable to feel a bit off-kilter as the “back to school” messages ramp up around us—be kind to […]
EU290: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 1
Aug 12, 2021
Jae Williams recently decided to leave his teaching job and stay home to dive into unschooling with his two young children. Leading up to this choice, he spent the last year immersed in podcasts and books, exploring natural learning and questioning many mainstream paradigms about children, schooling, and success. We talk about his experience as […]
EU289: Unschooling Dads with Izaak Sibley
Aug 05, 2021
Izaak Sibley joins me this week to share his experience as an unschooling dad. He shares about his own school education, how he saw his love of learning disappear over time, and how unschooling with Q has reignited it. We talk about trusting human curiosity and how he has seen Q’s learning naturally lead in […]
EU288: Sitting with Fear and Discomfort with Anna Brown
Jul 29, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Sitting with Fear and Discomfort. This is something that comes up on our unschooling journey pretty regularly because, not only are we challenging lots of cultural norms around learning and parenting, we’re also giving our children space […]
EU287: Why Joy?
Jul 22, 2021
This week, I have a solo episode for you! The idea to share why I focus on joy and the unschooling journey bubbled up a couple of weeks ago and it’s been fun to put this together. And for listeners who may be newer to the podcast, I share a bit about me before diving […]
EU286: Connect with Courage with Roya Dedeaux
Jul 15, 2021
Roya Dedeaux joins me on the podcast this week to talk about her new book Connect with Courage. Roya is a grown unschooler, a marriage and family therapist, and an unschooling mom of three, so she has lots of experience to draw from as she considers how children learn and thrive. In her book, Roya […]
EU285: Unschooling Stories with Erin Rosemond
Jul 08, 2021
Erin Rosemond, an unschooling mom of four, joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey. Erin shares her earliest reflections on her own schooling experience and how they prepared her for embracing the idea of home educating her children. We dive deep into the ideas of interdependence, collaboration, and kindness, and how unschooling […]
EU284: Deschooling with Lane Clark
Jul 01, 2021
Lane Clark joins me this week to talk about her unschooling journey and to dive into what she’s learned through deschooling. Lane’s journey began when her family was living abroad and felt their best option was homeschooling. When their carefully chosen curriculum didn’t feel like a good fit, she discovered unschooling and has been questioning […]
EU283: The Value of Play with Anna Brown
Jun 24, 2021
This week, Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Play! We dive into how integral play is for learning both about the world and about ourselves. We can carry a lot of preconceived notions about play, its value, its place in our lives, even the definition of […]
EU282: Teachers Turned Unschoolers
Jun 17, 2021
This week, I want to dive into another question that I get pretty regularly, and that’s whether I have podcast episodes with unschooling parents that used to be teachers. It’s fun to ponder the why behind the question. Does it seem like a strange leap to make? To me, choosing teaching indicates an interest in […]
EU281: Going Deep with Unschooling with Talia Bartoe
Jun 10, 2021
Talia Bartoe joins me again on the podcast to update us about her family’s unschooling journey. We didn’t know it going in, but it quickly became obvious that the theme of our conversation was “going deep”! Talia generously shares so much about her inner work and the shifts she’s made as part of deschooling and […]
EU280: Growing Up Unschooling with Samantha Donndelinger
Jun 03, 2021
This week, I am joined by 20-year-old Samantha Donndelinger, who has always been unschooled. Samantha shares some of her childhood stories and reflections on growing up unschooling. We talk about how her family’s lifestyle gave each child the space to make choices and figure out their own path, and how making choices and exploring her […]
EU279: Validation with Anna Brown
May 27, 2021
This week, Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Validation. Diving deep into validation flows beautifully from last month’s theme of Stories because practicing validation with the people in our lives is about hearing, understanding, and accepting their stories as their truth in the moment. Our connections […]
EU278: Unschooling in Large Families
May 20, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode to dive into a question that I get pretty regularly: What does unschooling look like in larger families? As we learn more about unschooling, we’re encouraged to spend time with our kids, to say yes more, to connect with them more, to explore ways to meet everyone’s […]
EU277: Unschooling Q&A with Sue Patterson, Part 2
May 13, 2021
Sue Patterson joins me again this week for the second part of our conversation, diving into three more listener questions. Check out part one here! Question Summaries I feel like I should be finding more friends for my kids to play with, but I’m introverted and it’s hard for me to reach out. My 12yo […]
EU276: Unschooling Q&A with Sue Patterson, Part 1
May 06, 2021
Sue Patterson joins me this week to dive into listener questions! And I’m sure it’ll surprise nobody that our conversation went long, so I’ve split it into two episodes—three questions each. A quick reminder, these Q&A conversations aren’t about giving anyone a “right” answer. We can’t know that because we don’t intimately know the real […]
EU275: Stories with Anna Brown
Apr 29, 2021
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Stories. Diving into this theme has been fascinating because there are so many ways in which we tell stories as humans, with really far-reaching impacts. We talk about the stories we tell ourselves and our families in […]
EU274: Rules versus Principles
Apr 22, 2021
This week, I’ve put together a solo episode. This episode is geared to parents who are newer to unschooling, navigating the paradigm shifts that come with questioning so much of the conventional wisdom around learning and parenting that we absorbed growing up. Spoiler alert: there are no unschooling “rules.” But I think more experienced unschooling […]
EU273: The Energy of Unschooling with Blathnaid Cantwell
Apr 15, 2021
Blathnaid Cantwell joins me on the podcast this week to talk about her family’s unschooling journey. Initially, it was science and research that inspired Blathnaid’s parenting, but she found over time that her lived experience, as well as that of other families, helped her more deeply understand unschooling in practice. We talked about peeling back […]
EU272: Our Unschooling Journey with the Beck Family, Part 2
Apr 08, 2021
The Beck family of five—Angie, Darren, Josh, Rylie, and Ellie—are back to continue our conversation about their unschooling journey. We had so much fun chatting and sharing stories that our conversation flowed for about two hours, so I split it across two episodes. Check out part one here! This week, we talk about each of […]
EU271: Our Unschooling Journey with the Beck Family, Part 1
Apr 01, 2021
The Beck family of five—Angie, Darren, Josh, Rylie, and Ellie—joins me this week for a wonderful conversation about their unschooling journey. As you can imagine, the six of us had so much fun chatting and sharing stories that our conversation flowed for about two hours, so I’ve split it across two episodes. In part 1 […]
EU270: Supporting Our Partners with Anna Brown
Mar 25, 2021
This week Anna Brown and I talk about our theme in the Living Joyfully Network this month, Supporting Our Partners. We chose the word “partners” to represent any important adults in our family’s lives who have active relationships with our children—spouses, co-parents, significant others, grandparents, and so on. Our partners are an important part of […]
EU269: Unschooling Doesn’t Spoil Children
Mar 18, 2021
This week, we’re diving into a question that comes up pretty regularly, not just from people new to unschooling but also from extended family and friends when they see our parenting choices in action: Won’t unschooling spoil a child? We look at four examples of parenting behaviours or actions, the typical conventional and unschooling motivations […]
EU268: The Joy of Unschooling with Karen Matthews
Mar 11, 2021
Karen Matthews joins me this week! Karen and her grown son, Tyler, own a furniture and wood craft business together. We talk about how their unschooling journey began and how following Tyler’s interests has not only been a rewarding path for him, but also for her. Karen shares some of the big a-ha moments she […]
EU267: Growing Up Unschooling with Laura and Allen Ellis
Mar 04, 2021
Siblings Laura and Allen Ellis join me this week to talk about growing up unschooling. They share how their childhood interests and experiences connect to the work that they currently do and some of the realizations they made along the way. We talk about the role their mother played in supporting their interests and providing […]
EU266: Finding Our Guides with Anna Brown
Feb 25, 2021
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network, our theme is ‘Finding Our Guides.’ As I wrote about in The Unschooling Journey, our children can serve as our most valuable guides, helping us move through our fears towards joy and connection. Anna and I talk about how handing our […]
EU265: Unschooling Passions
Feb 18, 2021
Pam shares her essay, Unschooling Passions. Unschooling is about learning through living. As unschooling parents, we want to open up the world for our children to explore. But what if your child is passionately interested in just one thing? Doesn’t that close off his access to the world and limit his learning? I have two […]
EU264: Unschooling Stories with Julia Triman
Feb 11, 2021
Julia Triman joins me to share her family’s unschooling journey. As a mom of two young children, Julia reflects on how her understanding of parenting and learning has changed through observation and being present with them. We talk about the incredible depth of her children’s play and how powerful it is that they can choose […]
EU263: Unschooling Paradigm Shifts with Susan Walker
Feb 04, 2021
Susan Walker, who lives in the Patagonia region of Argentina, joins me this week to talk about her family’s unschooling journey and the major paradigm shifts she made along the way. We talk about her discoveries about being highly sensitive and introverted, how diving into unschooling resulted in so much personal growth, and how her […]
EU262: Nurturing Our Children’s Learning with Anna Brown
Jan 28, 2021
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Nurturing Our Children’s Learning. We are getting back to the basics of unschooling by observing how children learn through following their interests. Exploring learning through the lenses of curiosity and creativity, we talk about what to do when […]
EU261: Deschooling with Joss Goulden
Jan 21, 2021
Joss Goulden, who lives in Western Australia and is mom to two kids, joins me to talk about her family’s unschooling journey. We talk about how she was inspired by her son’s brief time in kindergarten to make the choice to try unschooling, what her deschooling process looked like, and how she sees learning happening […]
EU260: Unschooling Stories with Betsey Tufano
Jan 14, 2021
Betsey Tufano, an unschooling mother of two living in Barcelona, Spain, joins me this week! Betsey shares many details about her unschooling journey and about the importance of the internal work that she did along the way. We also discuss how her relationship with her partner has changed and deepened through their choice to unschool, […]
EU259: Nuggets of Wisdom from Five Years of the Exploring Unschooling Podcast
Jan 07, 2021
This week marks the five year anniversary of the Exploring Unschooling podcast! To celebrate, I decided to dig into the podcast’s rich treasure trove of unschooling stories and highlight a handful of the many beautiful nuggets of wisdom that guests have shared over these five years. It’s been such a treat to revisit episodes as […]
EU258: Seeing the Magic with Anna Brown
Dec 31, 2020
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Seeing the Magic. As we move into the re-invigorating energy of new year, we are turning our attention to connecting with our children and finding the joy in our everyday lives with them. Anna and I talk about […]
EU257: Unschooling Instincts with Ali Walker
Dec 24, 2020
This week, I’m joined by Ali Walker, an unschooling mom and primatologist living in New Zealand. I have gotten to know Ali on the Living Joyfully Network, where she has shared some incredible insights about parenting and unschooling through her lens as a primate researcher focusing on the mother/infant bond. Ali details some of the […]
EU256: Deschooling with Marta Venturini
Dec 17, 2020
Marta Venturini joins me this week! Marta lives with her husband and daughter in Portugal. We dive deep into her unschooling journey, which began when her daughter was an infant, and discuss her deschooling process and how it continued to evolve as she grew as a parent. Marta also shares how much she values the […]
EU255: Choices and Unschooling with Holly Clark
Dec 10, 2020
Holly Clark joins me this week, mom to two always unschooled children living on the Sunshine Coast in Australia. Holly shared so many amazing snippets of their lives which all tied into the idea of choice—the choices we make as parents, the choices our children make, and our choice to support their choices! We also […]
EU254: Finding Unschooling with Daniela Bramwell
Dec 03, 2020
Daniela Bramwell joins me this week, an unschooling mom living in Ecuador. Daniela’s journey is fascinating! As a child, she was a student at an alternative free school, but, as an adult, found herself wondering if there was a better way to approach learning. She dove deep into learning about educational philosophies, including pursuing her […]
EU253: Navigating Family Gatherings with Anna Brown
Nov 26, 2020
Anna Brown joins me this week to talk about navigating family gatherings, the theme this month on the Living Joyfully Network. With the holiday season ramping up, it’s a great time to explore how we choose to engage in larger family celebrations, but the ideas are definitely be applicable throughout the year, from birthday parties […]
EU252: Unschooling Stories with Eva Witsel
Nov 19, 2020
Eva Witsel joins me this week, an unschooling mom and homeschooling activist in the Netherlands. Eva’s journey to unschooling is such an interesting one, as is her varied experience supporting the Dutch homeschooling community and affecting legislation there. We talked a lot about technology, following our passionate interests, supporting children as they become teenagers, and […]
EU251: Unschooling as a Lifestyle with Lucia Silva
Nov 12, 2020
Lucia Silva joins me this week to talk about unschooling as a lifestyle and her journey so far! We talked about how her understanding of unschooling has grown over the past few years and how what she’s learned has benefited all of her relationships. We also dove into the idea of expectations and how conversations […]
EU250: Embracing Unschooling with Donna Anderson
Nov 05, 2020
Donna Anderson joins me this week to talk about her family’s unschooling journey. We dive deep into her family’s interests, some of which are individual and many of which they share as a family. We also explore the idea of an unschooling nest, talk about some of the challenges of deschooling, and how maintaining strong […]
EU249: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Oct 29, 2020
Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time, we explore unschooling in the context of consent. I think consent lies at the heart of unschooling and I’m excited to share my conversation with Anna about what that means and how it informs the ways our families move through the world. It […]
EU248: Favorite Things about Unschooling
Oct 22, 2020
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode! This time, it’s a collection of responses to the question, “What is your favourite thing about the flow of your unschooling days?” If you’re newer to unschooling, these can be a great reminder of where you’re heading. And if you’re more experienced, they can be a great […]
EU247: From Teaching to Unschooling with Kelsi Stembel
Oct 15, 2020
Kelsi Stembel joins me this week! Kelsi has two teen daughters and is a former teacher turned farmer and entrepreneur. It was a joy to hear about how both her girls have developed and learned at their own pace, honoring their unique styles, and how unschooling has been such an amazing gift for their family. […]
EU246: Unschooling and Neurodiversity with Michelle Morcate
Oct 08, 2020
Michelle Morcate joins me this week to talk about their unschooling journey and how unschooling is such a natural fit when considering neurodiversity because it’s all about facilitating our children as individuals, how they learn, and how they want to move through the world. Michelle’s excitement as an ally and advocate is contagious and we […]
EU245: Unschooling Stories with Cate & Jenna Phillips
Oct 01, 2020
Cate and Jenna Phillips join me to share some of their wonderful unschooling stories! With six children, it was inspiring to hear about how their journey has unfolded as they prioritize relationships, follow their passions, and work together to support each other. Questions for Cate and Jenna Can you share a bit about you and […]
EU244: Not Back to School with Anna Brown
Sep 24, 2020
Anna Brown joins me again this week! This month in the Living Joyfully Network our theme is Not Back to School. It has been a rich month of checking in with ourselves, quieting the outside noise, and focusing on our kids and the joy around us. Anna and I talk about the “back to school” […]
EU243: Parenting Shifts with Sarah Peshek
Sep 17, 2020
Sarah Peshek joins me this week! Sarah is an unschooling mom of three and she shares the details of her journey and her parenting shifts from control to connection. Her insights and experiences are so helpful in really pulling out why this lifestyle is so amazing! How unschooling encourages us to recenter around the person […]
EU242: Deschooling with Nadia Joshua
Sep 10, 2020
Nadia Joshua joins me this week to talk about her family’s move to unschooling and her personal deschooling journey. It was delightful to learn more about her family and how they navigated moving to one income, explored the need to go and do, learned to honour both her daughters and their individual personalities, and lots […]
EU241: Exploring Race, Racism, and Diversity in Unschooling with Erika Davis-Pitre
Sep 03, 2020
Erika Davis-Pitre joins me again this week! I rebroadcast her episode, Unschooling and Diversity, earlier this year and she graciously offered to return and answer listener questions that arose from that episode. The result is this amazing episode with so many actionable steps and layers to peel back for all of us on this unschooling […]
EU240: Kids Are Capable with Anna Brown
Aug 27, 2020
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into the topic, Kids Are Capable. It’s a foundational principle of unschooling, and seems simple enough, but it’s about so much more than meets the eye! Questions for Anna Choice is a great lens through which to start looking at the idea that ‘kids are capable.’ Paying […]
EU239: Unschooling Dads with Roop Bhadury
Aug 20, 2020
This week I’m joined by unschooling dad, Roop Bhadury. Roop’s wife Susan joined me earlier this year in episode 220. It was such a treat to get to hear about their family from Roop’s perspective but more than that we had an amazing conversation about the philosophies of unschooling and entrepreneurship, life, relationships, we covered […]
EU238: Deschooling with Jessica Kane
Aug 13, 2020
This week, I have a lovely conversation with Jessica Kane. Jessica and her husband live in Ireland, and have three children. Her oldest attended school through high school, her middle son left school in grade 4, and her youngest son has never been to school. This gives her such a unique perspective to share! We […]
EU237: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Six
Aug 06, 2020
This week I’m sharing part six of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we covered stages ten, eleven, and twelve, ultimately reaching the holy grail of our quest: unschooling with confidence and grace. Let’s do a quick review to set the stage for the final leg of our […]
EU236: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Five
Jul 30, 2020
This week I’m sharing part five of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we covered stages eight and nine. And while our deschooling story to that point was working through much of the nuts and bolts of unschooling, in stages eight and nine we begin the personal growth […]
EU235: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Four
Jul 23, 2020
This week I’m sharing part four of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Last week, we entered the deschooling phase of our journey and found ourselves on the aptly named road of trials: a series of tests and challenges that the hero faces as they begin this personal transformation in […]
EU234: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Three
Jul 16, 2020
This week I’m sharing part 3 of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. One thing I love about looking at our unschooling lives through this lens is how intimately it connects us to the human journey, which can help us feel less alone. Recognizing that yes, other people really […]
EU233: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part Two
Jul 09, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part two of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Inspired by Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey framework, The Unschooling Journey is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from my journey. It’s not a “how to” book—no two paths through the world of unschooling have the […]
EU232: The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, Part One
Jul 02, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part one of the audiobook edition of my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Published in 2018, here’s a bit of the description: Inspired by Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey framework, The Unschooling Journey is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from Pam’s journey. It’s not a “how to” […]
EU231: Growing up Unschooling with Michael Laricchia
Jun 25, 2020
My son Michael joins me this week to talk about his experience growing up unschooling! We had a lot of fun diving into his varied interests, the threads that weave through them, and how they have helped shape the person he is today. We also talk about his experience with type 1 diabetes and our […]
EU097 RECAST: Unschooling and Diversity with Erika Davis-Pitre
Jun 18, 2020
This episode was first shared in November of 2017, and I want to share it again now as the Black Lives Matter movement gains important momentum to bring Erika’s valuable experience and insights about diversity and racism through the lens of unschooling back into our conversations. Erika and her husband, Michael have four adult children—they […]
EU230: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Jun 11, 2020
The idea with the unschooling in context episodes is to deepen our understanding of unschooling by exploring it in the context of other, related things. In this episode, we dive into unschooling in the context of parenting and examine some of the paradigm shifts around parenting and parent/child relationships that are integral to helping unschooling […]
EU229: From Control to Connection
Jun 04, 2020
This week, I’ve put together a compilation episode! This time, the lens is on parenting and the shift away from control and toward connection and engagement with our kids. I think you’ll get a lot out of this deep dive. Audio clips taken from these episodes … EU027: Ten Questions with Teresa Graham Brett EU084: […]
EU002 RECAST: Ten Questions with Pam Sorooshian
May 28, 2020
Pam Sorooshian is a veteran unschooling mom of three now adult daughters. Originally broadcast as the second episode of the podcast, I wanted to bring this gem back into the light! In our conversation, Pam shares so many incredible insights from her experience. She talks about the early years of unschooling, tips on navigating sibling […]
EU228: Free to Learn, Part Three
May 21, 2020
This week, I’m sharing the third and final part of the audiobook recording of my book, Free to Learn: Five Ideas for a Joyful Unschooling Life. This episode dives into the fourth and fifth ideas: instead of ‘no’ and living together. If you haven’t read it yet, this is an opportunity to learn more about […]
EU227: Free to Learn, Part Two
May 14, 2020
This week, I’m sharing part two of the audiobook recording of my book, Free to Learn: Five Ideas for a Joyful Unschooling Life. This episode dives into the second and third ideas: that learning is everywhere and that choices are key to learning. If you haven’t read it yet, this is an opportunity to learn […]
EU226: Free to Learn, Part One
May 07, 2020
For the next while, I’m doing something a little different on the podcast. With many people sheltering in place worldwide due to the coronavirus pandemic, it’s become increasingly challenging to arrange interviews. At first that seemed curious because people are connecting online even more so during these uncertain times. But as I thought more about […]
EU225: Unschooling Stories with Liz Brady
Apr 30, 2020
Liz Brady joins me this week to share some of her family’s unschooling stories. Liz and her husband live with their four boys in Western Australia. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, her parenting journey, and the gift of sharing her life with so many unique and dynamic personalities. The love and joy shines […]
EU224: Deschooling with Fiona Munday
Apr 23, 2020
Fiona Munday joins me this week. Fiona and her husband live with their 4.5-year-old son in New Zealand and she dove into researching unschooling when her son was a baby. We have fun exploring her journey and she shares some of the wonderful insights and a-ha moments she’s already experienced—including applying the same principles to […]
EU223: Unschooling with Young Kids with Eva Whipple
Apr 16, 2020
Eva Whipple joins me this week! With children ages four and two, she and her husband have always known that they wouldn’t send their kids to school. We have a wonderful conversation diving into their journey, how she discovered unschooling, what their days look like, how capable and emotionally intelligent their children are, and how […]
EU222: Living Joyfully Network and Q&A with Anna Brown
Apr 09, 2020
This week’s episode is a special one for me. For a few months now, I’ve been percolating lots of thoughts and possibilities around building an engaging and supportive online unschooling community. Finally, it’s HERE! And Anna Brown is an integral part of it all, taking on the role of Community Advocate. We are well into […]
EU221: Unschooling and Neurodiversity with Tara McGovern Dutcher
Apr 02, 2020
Tara McGovern Dutcher joins me to talk about neurodiversity, how we are all unique in our experience of the world, and how unschooling creates an amazing environment from which our individual gifts can shine. Questions for Tara Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What is everyone into right now? […]
EU220: Pursuing Our Curiosity with Susan Bhadury
Mar 26, 2020
Susan Bhadury, an unschooling mom with two children, joins me this week. She shares some wonderful stories and insights as we dive into deschooling challenges, the joys of technology, helping our children follow their inner compass, how curiosity weaves its way through their lives, and lots more! Questions for Susan Can you share with us […]
EU219: Home with the Kids with Pam and Anna
Mar 19, 2020
For any parents who find themselves at home with the kids during these uncertain times, Anna Brown and I dive into the value of using this time to embrace and strengthen our relationships with our children, tips for navigating sibling conflicts, and some ideas to get your brainstorming juices flowing for fun things to do […]
EU218: Growing Up Unschooling with Jayn Coburn
Mar 12, 2020
Jayn Coburn joins me this week to talk about her experience growing up unschooling. Her mom, Robyn, joined me back in 2017 so it was great to connect with Jayn! She openly shares her unschooling experience and insights. We talk about video games, learning, food controls, and touch many of the big topics that come […]
EU217: Change the Way You See Things with Jason and Kim Kotecki
Mar 05, 2020
Jason and Kim Kotecki are back! We had a great time catching up and hearing about what’s going in their unschooling lives. I love Jason’s new book, ‘A Chance of Awesome: How Changing the Way You See Changes Everything’ and found so many parallels to our unschooling lives. The lens of unschooling changes how we […]
EU216: Deschooling with Nikki Zavitz
Feb 27, 2020
Nikki Zavitz joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. She talks about how her life as a teacher influenced her decision to unschool, and how it also created challenges in her deschooling journey. She shares stories from what she calls the “messy middle,” and the beautiful moments that come alive everyday, and […]
EU215: Unschooling Stories with Dola Dasgupta
Feb 20, 2020
Dola Dasgupta is a long-time unschooling mom with two older children and we have a fascinating conversation! She shares some wonderful stories as we dive into her journey to unschooling, deschooling challenges along the way, the value of free time, her experience unschooling in India, and lots more. Questions for Dola Can you share with […]
EU214: Unschooling Dads with Bob Mahan
Feb 13, 2020
Bob Mahan joins me to talk about his experience as an unschooling dad. An accountant for 24 years, he had all the bells and whistles of that career, but he didn’t enjoy it. In our conversation, he shares his journey from there to unschooling and living a life of freedom, fun, and connection. Nowadays, Bob, […]
EU213: Unschooling and Math with Marcella O’Brien
Feb 06, 2020
Marcella O’Brien joins me this week. Marcella is an unschooling mom of three boys. Her grown sons, Jack and Sean, joined me to share their experiences back in episode 181, so it was such a treat to hear Marcella’s journey. She was also a public school teacher and still tutors math which led to a […]
EU212: Ten Questions with Nisa & Jewel Deeves
Jan 30, 2020
Nisa Deeves and her daughter Jewel join me this week to answer ten questions about their unschooling lives. This was a lovely chat that felt like sharing a cup of tea with old friends. I love the rich tapestry of lives created by all of the unschoolers who so generously share their time with me. […]
EU211: Learning in the Real World
Jan 23, 2020
When we first decide our children aren’t going to go to school, it can be daunting to envision how they’re going to learn instead. The great thing is, we don’t need to re-create the ethos of school in our homes to help our children’s learning thrive in the real world. In this talk I gave […]
EU210: Unschooling Stories with Michelle Conaway
Jan 16, 2020
Michelle Conaway joins me this week. Michelle is an unschooling mother of three and grandmother to one! She also runs the Texas Unschoolers group, coordinates their annual conference, and was gracious enough to share her journey and some wonderful stories and insights from their unschooling lives. Questions for Michelle Can you share with us a […]
EU209: The Lovely Chaos of Unschooling with Shan Burton
Jan 09, 2020
Shan Burton is a writer, an unschooling mom and a recent widow. She kindly joins me this week to talk about her unschooling life, how the idea of Lovely Chaos (her website name) came about and how embracing unschooling healed her relationships and helped her family through the loss of their beloved husband and father. […]
EU208: Don’t Aim for Perfect with Sue Patterson
Jan 02, 2020
Sue Patterson joins me to talk about how the idea of “perfect” can get in the way of living our best unschooling life. We touch on comparisons, tough times, the personal work involved, the gifts that these choices bring, and lots more! Discussion Points Let’s start with the genuine excitement that bubbles up when we […]
EU207: Advice from Grown Unschoolers
Dec 26, 2019
It’s compilation episode time again! In many of my conversations with grown unschoolers, I ask what advice they’d like to share with newer unschooling parents who are starting out on this journey. In this episode, I’ve woven together answers from eleven episodes and twelve grown unschoolers. It’s so interesting to hear the things that they […]
RECAST: Unschooling the Holidays
Dec 19, 2019
Anna Brown joins Pam to talk about navigating the holiday season through the lens of unschooling. As we move into the holiday season, things can get challenging. Maybe you’re deep into deschooling and questioning everything—including holiday traditions—to see how well they really fit your family. Maybe you’re the lone unschooling family and anticipating uncomfortable visits […]
EU206: Deschooling with Kinsey Norris
Dec 12, 2019
Kinsey Norris is an unschooling mom with two kids and we had a wonderful chat about her journey! She has a background in Early Childhood Education and it was fascinating to see how many seeds were planted along the way that ultimately grew into the amazing unschooling life they are living as a family today. […]
EU205: Unschooling Dads with Lucas Land
Dec 05, 2019
Lucas Land is an unschooling dad with three kids, and we have a wonderful conversation about deschooling, living in another country, trusting our kids, and lots more! He also recently started a podcast, We Don’t Talk About That with Lucas Land. Questions for Lucas Can you share with us a bit about you and your […]
EU204: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Nov 28, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into listener questions. Question Summaries The first question is about deschooling and moving to unschooling. She has two boys and they have always homeschooled. They’ve been looking at moving to unschooling. She’s been reading and researching and she’s feeling a little bit overwhelmed. The main focus of […]
EU203: School’s out. Now what? Part 2
Nov 21, 2019
School’s out. Now what? Choosing to step off the conventional education path and leave school behind is often the culmination of a long, and sometimes emotional, process. But, in the bigger picture, it’s really just the first step on your new path. School’s Out is a curated collection of some of my published articles, in an […]
EU202: Unschooling and Connected Relationships with Liza Swale
Nov 14, 2019
Liza Swale joins me to talk about her unschooling journey and the value of connected relationships. She shares some amazing stories of trusting, being open, and following the flow. We also dive into what she’s learned about staying connected with her two children, who have very different needs and personalities, and how they prioritize connecting […]
EU201: Unschooling and Self Care with Erika Ellis
Nov 07, 2019
Erika Ellis joins me this week to talk about the very important topic of self care. Of course, we look at the topic through the lens of unschooling, dispelling some myths and letting go of some “shoulds” about how to take care of ourselves. Erika shares so many practical, easy to use tips to help […]
EU200: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Oct 31, 2019
It’s the 200th episode!!! What a wonderful journey it’s been! This week Anna Brown joins me for another Unschooling In Context episode. We explore the idea of deschooling and how it fits in the larger context of unschooling. We talk about language, our values, ideas that we can let go and so much more. Anna […]
EU199: Unschooling Stories with Holly Johnson
Oct 24, 2019
Holly Johnson is an unschooling mom with two children, and her family is currently traveling the world together! How they got to that place is an amazing story. We dive into the choice to remove a child from school, helping an anxious child, hacking their lives to suit themselves, and how unconditional acceptance and love […]
EU198: School’s out. Now what? Part 1
Oct 17, 2019
School’s out. Now what? Choosing to step off the conventional education path and leave school behind is often the culmination of a long, and sometimes emotional, process. But, in the bigger picture, it’s really just the first step on your new path. Welcome! School’s Out is a curated collection of some of my published articles, […]
EU197: Choosing School, Part 2 with Alex Polikowsky
Oct 10, 2019
Alex Polikowsky joins me to share an update about how her family weaves school and unschooling together. Recently, a listener posted a comment on Alex’s first podcast appearance (almost three years ago) about how much she enjoyed the episode and that she’d love to hear an update. I thought it was a great idea and […]
EU196: Growing up Unschooling with Katie Patterson
Oct 03, 2019
Katie Patterson left school after kindergarten and grew up unschooling. She is an actress, a writer, and an all-around lover of horror. We have a wonderful conversation about her childhood, how her path has unfolded, what she loved about unschooling, and what she’s up to now. Questions for Katie Can you share with us a […]
EU195: Unschooling Stories with Renee Cabatic
Sep 26, 2019
Renee Cabatic, the mother of two unschooled teens, joins me this week to share some wonderful stories from their lives. We dive into passions and comfort zones, college and quitting, agency and self-efficacy, and lots more. Questions for Renee Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What did your family’s […]
EU194: Stretching Our Comfort Zones
Sep 19, 2019
Compilation episode time! This time, let’s explore the idea of stretching our comfort zones. This can come up in various ways along our unschooling journey. Often, we first encounter it when we’re actively deschooling and questioning so much of the conventional wisdom around learning and parenting that we’ve absorbed growing up. We can also find […]
EU193: Unschooling Younger Kids with Martha Delmore
Sep 12, 2019
Martha Delmore joins me this week to talk about unschooling with younger children. Unschooling wasn’t on her radar before she had kids—she’s a former high school teacher—but her desire to maintain and enhance her relationships with them led her down this unexpected path. We dive into attachment parenting, when family members question our choices, the […]
EU192: Unschooling to College with Amy Milstein
Sep 05, 2019
Amy Milstein’s two children have grown up unschooling. Last year, her eldest decided she wanted to go to college. We dive into how they handled the legalities of unschooling in New York, her daughter’s journey to college, and the lovely flow of their unschooling days along the way. I hope you enjoy the conversation as […]
EU191: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Aug 29, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to dive into listener questions! Question Summaries Mom hears many parents on the podcast talking about hanging out with their kids so much more now that they’re unschooling. But since she stopped limiting screen time back in January, her boys, 15, 13, and 10, play online games. Her question: […]
EU190: Unpacking Unschooling Memes with Sue Patterson
Aug 22, 2019
Sue Patterson joins me this week to dive into five popular unschooling memes. Memes can be quick, inspirational pick-me-ups, but we don’t need to stop there—we can use them as a springboard to learn more about both ourselves and unschooling. It’s so worth doing the work. The five popular memes we discuss 1. “You cannot […]
EU189: Ten Questions with Amy Martinez
Aug 15, 2019
Amy Martinez joins me this week to talk about her family’s move to unschooling. Amy is a mother of five, who range in age from 15-29. They had time in public school, homeschooling, and ultimately moved to unschooling. Her insights on those transitions, on living in a big family, and on the connections and amazing […]
EU188: Our Unschooling Work with Jen Keefe
Aug 08, 2019
Jen Keefe joins me this week! Jen was on the podcast almost three years ago and I really enjoyed learning a bit about how their unschooling lives have grown and changed since then. We dive into what she found challenging as they moved to unschooling, how it’s been life-changing for her as well as the […]
EU187: Time and the Wild Landscape of Unschooling
Aug 01, 2019
I originally wrote this essay for Rosemary Magazine, for their winter issue, which had the theme, “wildschool.” I loved playing with that idea! There’s the outer wildness of living outside the structure of compulsory school. In the world, rather than in the classroom. Kids in the grocery store in the middle of the day. Running […]
EU186: Sparkle and Zest and Unschooling with Teresa Hess
Jul 25, 2019
Teresa Hess is an unschooling mom with three kids and the family—Teresa, her husband, and the kids—live in a cool co-housing community on an island in Washington state. Teresa and I had a wonderful conversation about their unschooling lives, diving into the shift to peaceful parenting, the ever-deepening spiral of mothering and self-awareness, the concept […]
EU185: Deschooling with Talia Bartoe
Jul 18, 2019
Talia Bartoe is an unschooling mom with four young children who have never been to school. We have a wonderful conversation about her deschooling journey—as someone who excelled in school, she had no idea this would be in her future. Her excitement and gratitude for finding this path and for the beautiful connections that have […]
EU184: Sprinkle in More Love with Shannon Loucks
Jul 11, 2019
Shannon Loucks joins me to talk about unschooling, parenting, and her new book, Love More: 50+ ways to build joy into childhood. Shannon’s an unschooling mom with two boys and she believes in the power of play and partnership as a way to bring more joy and love into our children’s lives. We dive into […]
EU183: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Jul 04, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week for another Unschooling in Context episode! This time we’re diving into unschooling in the context of life. And what I mean by that is, we’re exploring how unschooling eventually weaves so tightly into our lives. Which is beautiful! Unschooling IS living our lives. Yet, as challenges arise, it can […]
EU182: Unschooling and Video Games
Jun 27, 2019
It’s time for another compilation episode! This time, let’s dive into video games. Video games are a common topic of conversation in unschooling circles because, when it comes to questioning conventional advice, this topic is a hot bed of widely varying perspectives. For me, when I find myself in that conundrum, I look to my […]
EU181: Growing Up Unschooling with Jack & Sean O’Brien
Jun 20, 2019
Jack and Sean O’Brien both grew up unschooling. Sean chose to continue unschooling during his teen years and Jack chose to go to high school. Now they’re both in college and we have a wonderful conversation about the ways that unschooling has woven its way through their current college experiences. Questions for Jack & Sean […]
EU180: Growing Up Unschooling with Nick Bergson-Shilcock
Jun 13, 2019
Nick Bergson-Shilcock joins me this week! In a nutshell, Nick grew up unschooling and now runs the Recurse Center in New York. It’s a wonderful space for both new and experience programmers to take a sabbatical and vastly improve their programming skills. It was fascinating to hear the story of how the Recurse Center came […]
EU179: Unschooling Stories with Joan Concilio
Jun 06, 2019
Joan Concilio joins me to share some of her family’s wonderful unschooling stories. We dive into her journey to unschooling, the learning that happened along the way, the profound changes it brought to their lives and the deep connections that it forged. She also talks about what it’s like to live in a highly regulated […]
EU178: Q&A with Anna and Pam
May 30, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week to answer listener questions. We talk about finding ways to live together when we have different styles and needs, considering diplomas and next steps, allowances and family money, and how learning looks different in unschooling families. Question 1 [00:00:20] How do I make a minimalist, quiet home dynamic enough […]
EU177: Growing Up Unschooling with Alyssa Patterson
May 23, 2019
Alyssa Patterson joins me this week to chat about growing up unschooling! Alyssa and I dive into her interests growing up, her choice to go to high school for a year and a half, how she came to open her own business a few months ago, what she appreciates most about growing up unschooling, and […]
EU176: Coming Home with Tara Soto-Regester
May 16, 2019
Tara Soto-Regester, an unschooling mom with two children, joins me for a wonderful conversation about her family’s journey from school to unschooling. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, her son’s transition from school to coming home, what’s surprised her along the way, her new podcast, and lots more! Questions for Tara Can you share […]
EU175: Deschooling with Leah Rose
May 09, 2019
Leah Rose joins me this week to share her unschooling experience. Turns out, our conversation had such a lovely, organic flow that we soon left the questions behind! Show Notes In our conversation,we wove our way through these ideas: intrinsic motivation the pitfalls of comparison transitioning to unschooling breaking down deschooling conversations taking the place […]
EU174: Unschooling Teens at Camp with Laura Bowman
May 02, 2019
Laura Bowman is the founder of the East Tennessee Unschooled Summer Camp for teens and previous guests have said wonderful things about their camp experience. We dive into Laura’s unschooling journey, how the camp came to life in 2010, what a day at camp looks like, the idea behind the Mentor Groups, reluctant campers, and […]
EU173: Unschooling in Context with Anna Brown
Apr 25, 2019
Anna Brown joins me this week for a conversation with a twist: we’re not talking about the ins and outs of unschooling itself but about how it fits in the bigger picture. Hence the title of the episode, Unschooling in Context. It’s a topic I’ve been wanting to do for a while, but I really […]
EU172: Unschooling Travels with Heather Clark
Apr 18, 2019
Heather Clark joins me this week! I first met Heather a few years ago at an unschooling conference and I love the way she and her family have slowly but surely woven an interest in travel into their lives. We dive into her journey to unschooling, the story behind embracing travel, the value of embracing […]
EU171: The Magic of Learning to Read Naturally
Apr 11, 2019
It’s time for another compilation episode! This time I went with a topic rather than a particular question: the topic of learning to read naturally. Listen to ten different guests share their experiences around unschooling and learning to read. Hearing their stories in this new context—side by side—may well spark helpful new connections and insights […]
EU170: Unschooling in Action with Kelli & Rhanna Lincoln
Apr 04, 2019
Kelli and Rhanna Lincoln, unschooling mom and daughter, join me this week on the podcast. I had so much fun chatting with them and hearing about their unschooling lives—from both their perspectives. We talk about their journey to unschooling, living and learning with four kids (or three siblings!), their family’s RV travels, their latest business […]
EU169: Deschooling with Alicia Gonzales-Lopez
Mar 28, 2019
Alicia Gonzales-Lopez joins me this week to talk about her deschooling journey. We dive into how she discovered unschooling, the emotional healing that’s happened for her, what she’s found challenging along the way, connecting with our kids, what has surprised her most, and lots more. Questions for Alicia Can you share with us a bit […]
EU168: Embracing Unschooling with Joan Karp
Mar 21, 2019
Joan Karp, unschooling mom with three kids, joins me this week! We talk about her fascinating journey to unschooling, what she found challenging about deschooling, we dive deep into the teen years, what she most appreciates about having embraced unschooling, how her passion for sports weaves into their days, the new business they’ve recently started […]
EU167: Unschooling Dads with Ben Lovejoy
Mar 14, 2019
Ben Lovejoy, a long-time unschooling dad, joins me this week. I met Ben and his family at the first unschooling conference we ever attended. His boys are grown now and we have a lovely chat reflecting on his family’s journey, including the influence of his military background, the idea of rules versus principles, the value […]
EU166: Unschooling and the Teen Years with Sue Patterson: Part 2
Mar 07, 2019
This week is Part 2 of my wonderful conversation with Sue Patterson about unschooling and the teen years. In this episode we talk about the later teen years, transitioning into adulthood, is there preparation needed, should we be defining success for someone else, connection and how relationships evolve and change. So many wonderful moments talking […]
EU165: Unschooling and the Teen Years with Sue Patterson: Part 1
Feb 28, 2019
Sue Patterson returns to talk about unschooling and the teen years. We are both rather passionate about the topic and our conversation ended up lasting almost two hours! I decided to split it into two, and it actually worked out quite well, with Part 1 covering the transition into the teen years, and Part 2 […]
EU164: Q&A with Anna and Pam
Feb 21, 2019
This week Anna Brown joins me to answer some questions from listeners. We talk about finding friends, letting go of worry and fear of the future, the teen years, and more. I think you’ll find some helpful nuggets no matter where you are on your unschooling journey. Question 1 We are an Italian family. Here […]
EU163: Growing Up Unschooling with Adrian Peace-Williams
Feb 14, 2019
Adrian Peace-Williams joins me this week! A companion conversation to last week’s episode with her mom, Adrian and I have a wonderful conversation, diving into her childhood unschooling, her choice to go to high school, her years of traveling the world after high school, where she is now in her journey, and lots more. Her […]
EU162: Ten Questions with Alex Peace
Feb 07, 2019
Alex Peace has been one of my unschooling inspirations for many years! She has three adult children and I’m so excited that she agreed to come on the podcast to talk about her family’s unschooling experiences. We dive into what she found to be the most challenging aspect of deschooling, building trust, stretching comfort zones, […]
EU161: What is Unschooling?
Jan 31, 2019
This week, please enjoy the audiobook edition of my intro book, What is Unschooling? Written and read by me, Pam Laricchia. Here’s the description: Life in the real world is much bigger and more exciting than a school can contain within its four walls. If you’re ready to embrace life and eager to share its […]
EU160: Ten Questions with Kirsten Fredericks
Jan 24, 2019
Kirsten Fredericks and her husband Carl have three boys—now young adults—who pretty much grew up unschooling. We have a wonderful conversation as we touch on how she found unschooling, the most challenging aspect of deschooling, supporting our children’s passions, moving from control to trust, what has surprised her most about how their unschooling lives have […]
EU159: Growing Up Unschooling with Max VerNooy
Jan 17, 2019
Max VerNooy grew up unschooling. I’ve known Max’s family for many years, online and through unschooling gatherings, and I’m so happy he agreed to chat with me about his experience growing up unschooling. We talk about the ebb and flow of his interests through the years, his time mentoring at an unschooling summer camp, and […]
EU158: Unschooling Book Clubs with Tracy and Erika
Jan 10, 2019
Tracy Talavera and Erika Ellis are unschooling moms who also host an unschooling book club! We dive into the flow of a typical meeting, going about choosing books, figuring out membership, what they’ve personally gotten out of being part of the book club, and lots more. Questions for Tracy and Erika Can you each share with […]
EU157: Unschooling Intentions with Sue Patterson
Jan 03, 2019
Sue Patterson, a long-time unschooling mom with three now-adult children, joins me to talk about unschooling intentions. I love the energy of a new year, but I’m not so keen on making resolutions. For lasting change, I need something meatier. I’ve found that when I think about the kinds of changes I’d like to see in […]
EU156: Surprises on the Unschooling Journey
Dec 27, 2018
It’s time for another compilation episode! Let’s dive into how twelve unschooling parents answer the question, “What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives?” I hope you enjoy hearing what these unschooling parents had to share! Audio Snippets Taken from These Episodes … EU036: Deschooling with Lauren Seaver […]
EU155: Let ‘Em Go Barefoot with Missy Willis
Dec 20, 2018
Missy Willis is an unschooling mom of two children and host of the website, Let ‘Em Go Barefoot, where she shares her personal experiences, thoughts, and research around unschooling. We dive into her journey from getting her master’s in Special Ed to unschooling, what she means by the phrase “ego-schooling,” how jumping in to help our children […]
EU154: Unschooling Dads and Documentaries with Jeremy Stuart
Dec 13, 2018
Jeremy Stuart joins Pam for an engaging conversation about unschooling, documentaries, and life. Jeremy is an unschooling dad and video editor who also directed and co-produced the documentary film, Class Dismissed, which was released in 2015. Since then, it has been screened in more than 60 countries and translated into five languages. He’s now in the […]
EU153: Unschooling the Holidays with Pam and Anna
Dec 06, 2018
Anna Brown joins Pam to talk about navigating the holiday season through the lens of unschooling. As we move into the holiday season, things can get challenging. Maybe you’re deep into deschooling and questioning everything—including holiday traditions—to see how well they really fit your family. Maybe you’re the lone unschooling family and anticipating uncomfortable visits […]
EU152: Ten Questions with Vicky Bennison
Nov 29, 2018
Vicky Bennison and her husband always unschooled their two children—now young adults. I met Vicky years ago and we’ve stayed connected online ever since. We have a wonderful conversation diving into her unschooling journey, including what she found to be most challenging, the importance of being curious ourselves, what has surprised her most along the […]
EU151: Escape Adulthood with Kim and Jason Kotecki
Nov 22, 2018
Kim and Jason Kotecki are unschooling their three children, and they are also the brains and the fun behind escapeadulthood.com! We have a fantastic conversation, diving into their journey to unschooling, how they got into the work of fighting adultitis, how encouraging people to see their days through a more child-like lens is remarkably similar […]
EU150: Stories of an Unschooling Family with Sue Elvis
Nov 15, 2018
Sue Elvis and her husband Andy have eight children, seven living, ranging in age from 14 to 31. Sue hosts the podcast, Stories of an Unschooling Family, as well as a website and blog. We have a lovely conversation, diving into her family’s move to unschooling, the difference between unschooling and unparenting, how unschooling has grown […]
EU149: Deschooling with Tatiana Plechenko
Nov 08, 2018
Tatiana Plechenko is an unschooling mom with two children. I met Tatiana online pretty early in her unschooling journey and then had the pleasure of connecting with her in person a few times at unschooling events. We have a really fun conversation, diving into her deschooling experience, including her most challenging area, how her relationships with […]
EU148: The Value of Relationships for Learning
Nov 01, 2018
When I began unschooling my three children in 2002, it wasn’t long before I came across the idea that strong relationships with my children were essential for unschooling—and learning in general—to thrive. At first, I thought, sure, that’s a worthwhile goal, but what exactly does that have to do with their learning? That became clear […]
EU147: Unschooling as Flow with Robyn Robertson
Oct 25, 2018
Robyn Robertson is an unschooling mom with two children and host of the podcast, Honey, I’m Homeschooling the Kids. We have wonderful conversation, diving into her family’s early travels, their move to unschooling, figuring out what unschooling looks like for them, her favourite thing about the flow of their unschooling days, and lots more! Questions […]
EU146: Common First Questions About Unschooling with Sue Patterson
Oct 18, 2018
Sue Patterson, a long-time unschooling mom with three now-adult children, continues to encourage and support unschooling parents through her website and Facebook group, UnschoolingMom2Mom. In this episode, we have a great time tackling some of the common questions people ask when they are first exploring unschooling. Questions for Sue Can you share with us a […]
EU145: Healing and Unschooling with Caren Knox
Oct 11, 2018
Caren Knox is a long-time unschooling mom who found that, while she has been in and out of therapy over the years, nothing has been more impactful and life-changing for her than becoming a good unschooling mom. We dive into her family’s move to unschooling, when her healing journey began, her healing process and what […]
EU144: The Decision to Leave School Behind with Jen Lumanlan
Oct 04, 2018
As Jen Lumanlan puts it, “I don’t have much in the way of parenting instinct but I make up for it with outstanding research skills.” Her deep dive into parenting research led first to a Master’s in Psychology with a focus on Child Development, then to another Master’s in Education, and then ultimately to choosing unschooling as […]
EU143: Follow the Joy with Natasha Allan-Zaky
Sep 27, 2018
Natasha Allan-Zaky joins me this week for a wonderful unschooling conversation! We talk about her family’s move to unschooling, the challenge of embracing fun, learning piano, her biggest a-ha moment so far on the journey, and lots more. Questions for Natasha Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What did […]
EU142: Second Generation Unschooling with Amanda Sharma
Sep 20, 2018
Amanda Sharma joins me this week to share her fascinating perspective as a grown unschooler who is now unschooling her own children. We dive into her experience growing up unschooling, the process of choosing unschooling for her children and family, what she’s found challenging on the journey, her favourite thing about unschooling right now, and […]
EU141: Growing Up Unschooling with Alec Traaseth
Sep 13, 2018
I first met Alec Traaseth and his family when he was maybe twelve or thirteen, at an unschooling conference. I’ve enjoyed little glimpses of his life over the years through social media and I was so happy when he agreed to come on the podcast to chat about his experience growing up unschooling. We talk […]
EU140: Freeschoolin’ with Wendy Hart
Sep 06, 2018
Wendy Hart and her husband are unschooling their eight-year-old daughter. They live in Ontario, Canada where Wendy runs a local un/homeschool group that hosts fun activities, like yesterday’s Not Back to School Beach Meet-Up! We dive into how she discovered unschooling, how she’s helping her daughter pursue her interests, her biggest stumbling block on the […]
EU139: Questions from the Inbox
Aug 30, 2018
This week on the podcast, I’ve put together a new kind of Q&A. It dawned on me recently that I’ve written many thousands of words in email replies to unschooling-related questions over the last few years. And I suspect that, for every person who actually emailed me, there are many others with a similar question in mind. […]
EU138: The Sparkle of Unschooling
Aug 23, 2018
This week on the podcast, I’ve put together a compilation of sixteen experienced unschooling parents answering the question, “Looking back, what has been the most valuable outcome from choosing unschooling?” I titled this episode The Sparkle of Unschooling because the guests are talking about THE ONE THING. It’s the thing we eventually discover that we celebrate […]
EU137: The Untamed with Courtney Barker
Aug 16, 2018
Courtney Barker and her husband Dave are unschooling their three children. Originally from Australia, they moved to Northern Zambia when their first child was 12 weeks old. Four years later they moved to Chile, and four years after that they moved to Canada. We have a wonderful conversation about their journey from school to unschooling, […]
EU136: Our Unschooling Journey with Jessica Hughes
Aug 09, 2018
Jessica Hughes and her husband, Micah, have three children, ages 11 to 18. When their kids were younger, they were homeschooling with a curriculum but they eventually found their way to unschooling. We talk about that journey, what you can do when you feel caught up in everyday “struggles,” supporting your husband’s journey, shifting away from […]
EU135: Ten Questions with Anna Brown
Aug 02, 2018
Anna Brown is back! We have so much fun diving into her family’s move to unschooling, how she developed trust in the process, what she found to be the most challenging aspect, tips for moving from conventional parenting to consensual living, stretching our comfort zones, and lots more. Ten Questions for Anna 1. Can you share […]
EU134: How Unschooling Grows with Virginia Warren
Jul 26, 2018
Virginia Warren’s two daughters have never been to school. We have great fun diving into their journey to unschooling, her biggest stumbling block along the way, her perspective as a gamer mom, what’s surprised her most so far, what her favourite thing about unschooling is right now, and lots more! Questions for Virginia Can you share […]
EU133: The Twists and Turns of Unschooling with Bea Mantovani
Jul 19, 2018
Béa Mantovani is an unschooling mom with two children. I’ve known Béa online in unschooling circles for quite a few years—she’s even translated some of my blog posts into French. We have a really interesting conversation as we dive into the twists and turns of their unschooling lives, including how she found unschooling, her biggest […]
EU132: Deschooling Two Cultures with Iris Chen
Jul 12, 2018
Iris Chen is a Chinese American unschooling mom who was born in the US, grew up in the US and Canada, and now lives with her husband and two boys in China. She’s been unschooling for about a year and began sharing her experiences on her blog at untigering.com. I’ve really enjoyed reading her posts, […]
EU131: Deschooling with Maria Randolph
Jul 05, 2018
Maria Randolph’s unschooled daughter is now twenty, which gives her a great perspective to look back on her own deschooling, It was a fascinating journey! We talk about what she found to be one of the most challenging areas to deschool, regret and how it can get in the way, her journey through the question, […]
EU130: Dismantling Shame with Ronnie Maier
Jun 28, 2018
Ronnie Maier has two daughters now in their twenties, who unschooled after leaving school in the early grades—plus a niece who has stayed with them part-time over the years. In a fun twist, Ronnie was the working parent while her husband Frank was the at-home unschooling parent. Ronnie has shared her family’s unschooling experience for […]
EU129: Starting Unschooling as a Teen with Noah Tetzner
Jun 21, 2018
Noah Tetzner is seventeen, left school last fall, and it was not long before he was passionately unschooling. We talk about his transition from school to unschooling, what excites him about unschooling, the podcast he’s now had time to start, his advice for new unschooling parents and lots more. Questions for Noah Can you share […]
EU128: Reluctant Spouse to Unschooling Advocate with Zach & Heather Lake
Jun 14, 2018
Zach and Heather Lake join me this week to talk about Zach’s journey from reluctant spouse to unschooling advocate. Heather has been on the podcast before taking about her deschooling journey, and after the episode she mentioned that her husband has had quite the journey as well. It occurred to me that it would be interesting to […]
EU127: The Magic of Unschooling with Ann Rousseau
Jun 07, 2018
Ann Rousseau and her partner Tim have been unschooling their three boys for about six years. Ann and I have a fascinating conversation, digging into how her family came to unschooling, moving through fear and discomfort, the many ways curiosity drives their days, her documentary about her experience of alopecia, and lots more. Questions for […]
EU126: Q&A Round Table
May 31, 2018
This month, Anna Brown and I treat you to an extra long Q&A episode as we finish up the remaining questions! We dive into questions around the challenge of deschooling while holding tight to your fears, engaging with the unschooling community before having kids of your own, the decision to unschool, the transformational impact of shifting […]
EU125: Challenges on the Unschooling Journey
May 24, 2018
This week on the podcast, we have the first compilation episode! I gathered clips from fourteen different episodes where I asked some version of this question: “What has been one of the more challenging aspects for you on your unschooling journey?” I think it’s fascinating to hear them side by side, but I’d love to know […]
EU124: Unschooling the Early Years with Jen Kobrick
May 17, 2018
Jen Kobrick connected with me recently and suggested an episode about the idea of unschooling in the early years—before kids reach school age. Her son is almost three and she so beautifully explained why she thought it was a valuable topic that I asked if she’d be interested in talking about it with me. I […]
EU123: Unschooling and Food Round Table
May 10, 2018
This week on the podcast I’m trying something new: a round table discussion on a single topic. Questions around food are very common as people are deschooling and contemplating releasing control over their children’s food choices and Sylvia Woodman, Jo Isaac, and Meredith Novak join me to talk all things food. I hope you find […]
EU122: Unschooling Passions with Robin Bentley
May 03, 2018
Robin Bentley is an unschooling mom who loves dancing hula, playing the yukelele, and supporting her daughter’s exploration of her interests and passions. We have a wonderful conversation about unschooling passions, including how supporting our child’s interests often ends up being a positive experience for us as well, healing our own childhood, tips and ideas […]
EU121: Q&A Round Table
Apr 26, 2018
Anna Brown joins Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dive into questions around managing the environment when a parent works at home, when we’re not a “perfect mom,” helping our kids learn about diversity, when you’re not into your child’s passion, and helping your children process their emotions without taking them on yourself. […]
EU120: Unschooling and Autism with Erin Human
Apr 19, 2018
Erin Human is an unschooling mom of two and she joins me this week to talk about her experiences with unschooling and autism. Erin has an autistic son, and was diagnosed with autism herself as an adult. She’s also a wonderful artist and is the art director for Autism Women’s Network, as well as co-founding director […]
EU119: Gaming and Growing Up Unschooling with Xander MacSwan
Apr 12, 2018
Xander MacSwan left school in the 5th grade when his parents—both professors in the University of Maryland’s College of Education—decided the best thing they could do was pull their kids out of school and start unschooling. We dive deep into Xander’s passion for video games, including the difference between gaming as part of deschooling and […]
EU118: Everything’s Connected with Nikole Verde
Apr 05, 2018
Nikole Verde and I have a great conversation about how, with unschooling, everything’s connected. Nikole is the home ed columnist at JUNO Magazine and she’s been doing a fun series where she looks at how different topics—or subjects, from a more school-ish mindset—can weave into our unschooling lives. Eventually, we notice that all of those […]
EU117: Q&A Round Table
Mar 29, 2018
Anne Ohman joins Pam to answer listener questions (Anna wasn’t able to join us). This month we dive into questions around meeting the needs of multiple children with diverse personalities and needs, shifting and reconnecting with the children after challenging times, shifting away from control as a parenting tool, and what to do about children […]
EU116: Growing Up Unschooling with Summer Jean
Mar 22, 2018
Summer Jean and I have a wonderful conversation about her experience growing up unschooling. We chat about how her mom came to unschooling, dealing with disapproval from extended family members, how her passion for glass art has unfolded, some of the common questions she gets when people learn she didn’t go to school and lots […]
EU115: The Unschooling Journey with Hema Bharadwaj, Part 2
Mar 15, 2018
Hema Bharawaj is an unschooling mom with two children and an amazing artist. Hema and I talk about her illustrations for my new book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. She talks about the inspiration behind the images and shares wonderful stories about her own unschooling journey. Our conversation spanned almost two hours so I decided to […]
EU114: The Unschooling Journey with Hema Bharadwaj, Part 1
Mar 08, 2018
Hema Bharawaj is an unschooling mom with two children and an amazing artist. Hema and I talk about her illustrations for my new book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. She talks about the inspiration behind the images and shares wonderful stories about her own unschooling journey. Our conversation spanned almost two hours so I decided […]
EU113: Deschooling with Megan Valnes
Mar 01, 2018
Megan Valnes is an unschooling mom with five children and we have so much fun diving deep into her deschooling experience. We talk about finding helpful unschooling information and groups online, the parenting paradigm shifts we make as we embrace unschooling, her experience managing the diverse needs of five children, her husband’s experience as they […]
EU112: Q&A Round Table
Feb 22, 2018
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dig into questions around helping a child who feels powerless and defeated, how to support a child who left school six months ago, personal hygiene choices, and the challenge of different personalities and meeting their needs. Click here to submit your own […]
EU111: Ten Questions with Jan Fortune
Feb 15, 2018
Jan Fortune home educated her four now adult children in the UK and wrote many articles and five books on unschooling and parenting. Her last book on the topic, Winning Parent, Winning Child, focuses on living with children in ways that respect their autonomy. Jan is also a novelist, poet, editor, and runs Cinnamon Press, now […]
EU110: Unschooling Dads & Music with Alan Marshall
Feb 08, 2018
Alan Marshall is an unschooling dad, a professional musician, and a university professor in the music department. We dive into his family’s journey to unschooling, his eldest’s transition to junior high, ways to approach music lessons, advice for dads just starting out with unschooling, and lots more. Quote of the Week “Actually, I would discourage, […]
EU109: Unschooling Stories with Sylvia Woodman
Feb 01, 2018
Sylvia Woodman joins me on the podcast this week, sharing some of her wonderful unschooling stories. Her children, ages thirteen and eleven, have never been to school. We chat about how she discovered unschooling, ways to create an environment in which natural learning thrives, how unschooling has been healing and liberating, technology, and lots more. […]
EU108: Q&A Round Table
Jan 25, 2018
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dig into questions around the challenge of meeting the needs of everyone in the family, the conventional idea that you shouldn’t do things for your children that they can do for themselves, the interplay of releasing control over food and the […]
EU107: Alternative Schools to Unschooling with Jessica
Jan 18, 2018
My guest this week is Jessica, an unschooling mom living in Germany. Unschooling is illegal in Germany, so we’ve kept everything on a first-name basis to protect her anonymity. Jessica decided even before her son was born that her child wouldn’t attend conventional schools, but she had no idea that the alternative schools that sounded […]
EU106: Unschooling Connections with Kelly Callahan
Jan 11, 2018
My guest this week is Kelly Callahan, unschooling mom of two. Kelly is now four years into her unschooling journey, and I was excited to explore how unschooling has been weaving ever more deeply into their lives. We chat about how they began unschooling, her deschooling challenges, the connections she’s seen between unschooling and her work as a homeopathic […]
EU105: Unschooling Dads with Nick Hess
Jan 04, 2018
My guest this week is Nick Hess, also known online as The Unschool Dad. He and his wife unschool their five children. We chat about about his family’s move to unschooling, what it was about unschooling that resonated with him, what he’s found challenging, and surprising, about unschooling as it has unfolded in their lives, […]
EU104: Q&A Round Table
Dec 28, 2017
Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dig into questions around when parents are at odds over parenting choices, ways to share information with more conventional parents, teens making connections and considering school, and ways to handle when a child calls themself “stupid.” Click here to submit your own […]
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