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Democracy Paradox — Government
Democracy Paradox

Is it possible for a democracy to govern undemocratically? Can the people elect an undemocratic leader? Is it possible for democracy to bring about authoritarianism? And if so, what does this say about democracy? My name is Justin Kempf. Every week I talk to the brightest minds on subjects like international relations, political theory, and history to explore democracy from every conceivable angle. Topics like civil resistance, authoritarian successor parties, and the autocratic middle class challenge our ideas about democracy. Join me as we unravel new topics every week.

Copyright: © 2026 Democracy Paradox

Latest Episodes:

Cass Sunstein on Interpreting the US Constitution Aug 15, 2023

Show notes

It would be a miracle if the original understanding of the Constitution just landed time and time again with the views in 2023 of the right-wing of the Republican Party. That would be too amazing a coincidence. That's more than troublesome.

Cass Sunstein
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Cass Sunstein is the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard Law School. During Obama’s first term he was the Administrator for the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. He is the author of dozens of books including Nudge(with Richard Thaler) and The World According to Star Wars. His most recent book is How to Interpret the Constitution.
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:38
Thinking about the Constitution - 3:06
Different Interpretations - 10:44
Textualism - 24:07
Amendment or Interpretation - 37:23

Key Links
How to Interpret the Constitution by Cass Sunstein
The World According to Star Wars by Cass Sunstein
Follow Cass Sunstein on Twitter @CassSunstein
Democracy Paradox Podcast
Joseph Fishkin on the Constitution, American History, and Economic Inequality
Donald Horowitz on the Formation of Democratic Constitutions
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Apes of the State created all Music
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Marc Plattner Has Quite a Bit to Say About Democracy Aug 08, 2023

Show notes

I think we have a more complex notion of what democracy is.
- Marc Plattner
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Marc Plattner is the founding coeditor of the Journal of Democracy and the founding codirector of the National Endowment for Democracy’s International Forum for Democratic Studies. Until 2016, he also served as NED’s vice president for research and studies, and from 1984 to 1989 he was NED’s director of program. He is the author of Democracy Without Borders? Global Challenges to Liberal Democracy(2008) and of Rousseau’s State of Nature(1979). His essays and reviews on a wide range of international and public policy issues have appeared in numerous books and journals, and he has coedited with Larry Diamond more than two dozen books on contemporary issues relating to democracy in the Journal of Democracy book series.
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:48
Democratic Consensus - 2:32
Liberalism and Democracy - 10:26
Democratic Threats - 20:58
Governance - 28:51

Key Links
"Why Ukraine Is Critical to Rebuilding Our Democratic Consensus" in the Journal of Democracy by Marc Plattner
"Democracy Embattled" in the Journal of Democracy by Marc Plattner
"Liberalism and Democracy: Can’t Have One Without the Other" in Foreign Affairs by Marc Plattner
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Anne Applebaum on Autocracy, Inc
Larry Diamond on Supporting Democracy in the World and at Home
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Apes of the State created all Music
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Is McKinsey and Company a Threat to Democracy? Michael Forsythe Shares His Reporting Aug 01, 2023

Show notes

It's too simplistic to call it an evil company. There are certainly a lot of very good people that work there. It's just the system itself and the corporation itself and the system that it's embedded in is what causes the problems.

Michael Forsythe
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Michael Forsythe is a reporter on the investigations team at The New York Times. Until February 2017 he was a correspondent in the Hong Kong office, focusing on the intersection of money and politics in China. He is the author (along with Walt Bogdanich) of When McKinsey Comes to Town: the Hidden Influence of the World's Most Powerful Consulting Firm.
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:35
Who is McKinsey & Company? - 3:14
Is it Anti-Democratic? - 17:55
Working with Autocrats - 34:17
Can it Change? - 44:33

Key Links
When McKinsey Comes to Town: The Hidden Influence of the World's Most Powerful Consulting Firm by Walt Bogdanich and Michael Forsythe
"How McKinsey Lost Its Way in South Africa" in The New York Times by Walt Bogdanich and Michael Forsythe
Follow Michael Forsythe on Twitter @PekingMike
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Anne Applebaum on Autocracy, Inc
Samuel Woolley on Bots, Artificial Intelligence, and Digital Propaganda
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Apes of the State created all Music
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Sergei Guriev Revisits Spin Dictators Jul 25, 2023

Show notes

Spin dictators have fewer political prisoners, fewer political killings. This is good. This is really good. On the other hand, we want to tell everybody that they are still dictators.

Sergei Guriev
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Sergei Guriev is a professor of Economics at Sciences Po in Paris. He was a former chief economist at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and the former rector of the New Economic School in Moscow. He is the coauthor (along with Daniel Treisman) of Spin Dictators: The Changing Face of Tyranny in the 21st Century.
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:46
Spin Dictatorships and Fear Dictatorships - 3:12
Popular Support - 25:21
Putin - 39:44
Beyond Spin Dictatorship - 43:49

Key Links
Spin Dictators: The Changing Face of Tyranny in the 21st Century by Sergei Guriev and Daniel Treisman
"Informational Autocrats" in the Journal of Economic Perspectives by Sergei Guriev and Daniel Treisman
Follow Sergei Guriev on Twitter @sguriev
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Anne Applebaum on Autocracy, Inc
Larry Bartels Says Democracy Erodes from the Top
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Apes of the State created all Music
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Berk Esen and Sebnem Gumuscu on the Disappointing Elections in Turkey... or How Democratic (or Autocratic) is Turkey Really? Jul 18, 2023

Show notes

Elections are not free or fair, but they matter greatly because this is how Erdoğan comes to power and stays in power and in this case he was almost about to lose that power.

Sebnem Gumuscu
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Berk Esen is an assistant professor of political science at Sabancı University. Sebnem Gumuscu is an associate professor of political science at Middlebury College. Their recent paper in the Journal of Democracy is “How Erdoğan’s Populism Won Again.”
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:33
Democracy in Turkey - 3:30
The Opposition - 21:36
The AKP - 27:40
Is Democracy Lost? - 41:01

Key Links
"How Erdoğan’s Populism Won Again" in Journal of Democracy by Berk Esen and Sebnem Gumuscu
Democratic Erosion: A Research, Teaching, & Policy Collaboration
Democracy or Authoritarianism: Islamist Governments in Turkey, Egypt, and Tunisia by Sebnem Gumuscu
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Dan Slater on Thailand’s Revolutionary Election
Anne Applebaum on Autocracy, Inc
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Apes of the State created all Music
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Hal Brands Thinks China is a Declining Power... Here's Why that's a Problem Jul 11, 2023

Show notes

The most dangerous states in the international system aren't necessarily revisionist powers that think that their trajectory points continually upward. It's those countries that have been growing, rising for a long time, and then fear that they are peaking and are about to decline. Those are the countries that are inclined to take the biggest risks to try to improve their position in the the here and now before things get worse for them in the future.

Hal Brands
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Hal Brands is the Henry A. Kissinger Distinguished Professor of Global Affairs at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. He is the coauthor (with Michael Beckley) of Danger Zone: The Coming Conflict with Chinaand the author of The Twilight Struggle: What the Cold War Teaches Us About Great-Power Rivalry Today.
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:43
Peaking Power Theory - 3:12
The Original Cold War - 22:28
China as a Peaking Power - 31:14
American Policy Toward China - 41:56

Key Links
Danger Zone: The Coming Conflict with China by Hal Brands and Michael Beckley
The Twilight Struggle: What the Cold War Teaches Us about Great-Power Rivalry Today by Hal Brands
"China’s Threat to Global Democracy" in Journal of Democracy by Hal Brands and Michael Beckley
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Josh Chin on China’s Surveillance State
Elizabeth Economy in a Wide Ranging Conversation About China
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Apes of the State created all Music
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Natasha Wheatley Raises Some Really Difficult Questions About Sovereignty Jul 04, 2023

Show notes

My book is in some ways trying to help us see not only the kind of deep intermingling of pre-modern and modern ideas of sovereignty, but how we repeat some of those more fantastical attributes of sovereignty that we might otherwise presume to be long gone remnants of a more superstitious or religious age.

Natasha Wheatley
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Natasha Wheatley is an assistant professor of history at Princeton University. She is the author of The Life and Death of States: Central Europe and the Transformation of Modern Sovereignty.
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:40
The State as Modern and Pre-Modern - 2:52
The Habsbug Empire - 9:21
Collapse of an Empire - 24:09
The State and International Law - 40:55

Key Links
The Life and Death of States: Central Europe and the Transformation of Modern Sovereignty by Natasha Wheatley
Learn More About Natasha Wheatley
Follow Natasha Wheatley on Twitter @natasha_wheatl
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Anna Grzymala-Busse on the Sacred Foundations of Modern Politics
Tom Ginsburg Shares his Thoughts on Democracy and International Law
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Apes of the State created all Music
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Sebastian Edwards on the History of Neoliberalism in Chile Jun 27, 2023

Show notes

I think that the most important reform is openness. Once the country is open, really open to the rest of the world, the rest follows.

Sebastian Edwards
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Sebastian Edwards is the Henry Ford II Professor of International Economics at the University of California, Los Angeles. He was the former Chief Economist for Latin America at the World Bank where from 1993 until 1996. His most recent book is The Chile Project: The Story of the Chicago Boys and the Downfall of Neoliberalism.
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:46
Pinochet and the Origin of the Chicago Boys - 3:17
Neoliberalism Under Democracy - 22:35
Personal Background of Sebastian Edwards - 30:18
Future of Chile - 38:35

Key Links
The Chile Project: The Story of the Chicago Boys and the Downfall of Neoliberalism by Sebastian Edwards
Learn More About Sebastian Edwards
Watch the film Chicago Boys by Carola Fuentes and Rafael Valdeavellano
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Jennifer Piscopo on the Constitutional Chaos in Chile
Aldo Madariaga on Neoliberalism, Democratic Deficits, and Chile
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Democracy Group
Apes of the State created all Music
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100 Books on Democracy

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Dan Slater on Thailand's Revolutionary Election Jun 20, 2023

Show notes

Democracy is Eastern as well as Western.

Dan Slater
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Dan Slater is the James Orin Murfin Professor of Political Science, the Ronald and Eileen Weiser Professor of Emerging Democracies, and director of the Weiser Center for Emerging Democracies at the University of Michigan. His most recent book (coauthored with Joseph Wong) is From Development to Democracy: The Transformations of Modern Asia. More recently he wrote the article "Thailand's Revolutionary Election" at the Journal of Democracy.
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:41
An Inspiring Election - 2:38
Parties and Politics - 5:09
Forming a Government - 21:09
Risks and Hope - 35:53

Key Links
"Thailand's Revolutionary Election" by Dan Slater at Journal of Democracy
From Development to Democracy: The Transformations of Modern Asia by Dan Slater and Joseph Wong
"What Indonesian Democracy Can Teach the World" by Dan Slater in the Journal of Democracy
Democracy Paradox Podcast
Dan Slater on Indonesia
Roger Lee Huang on Myanmar
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Apes of the State created all Music
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Peter Turchin Wants to Avoid Political Disintegration Jun 13, 2023

Show notes

If you have grown up in a household which had decent quality of life and now you are struggling, you cannot even match the degree of wellbeing that your parents achieved, this is very obvious and makes people feel completely dissatisfied with the system that we have now.

Peter Turchin
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Peter is a complexity scientist who has established a new field of social science research called cliodynamics. He is the author of the book End Times: Elites, Counter-Elites, and the Path of Political Disintegration,
Key Highlights

Introduction - 0:45
The Crisis - 3:05
Elites - 11:54
Popular Immiseration - 30:59
Cliodynamics - 43:40

Key Links
End Times: Elites, Counter-Elites, and the Path of Political Disintegration by Peter Turchin
Cliodynamics: The Journal of Quantitative History and Cultural Evolution
Learn more about Peter Turchin
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Martin Wolf on the Crisis of Democratic Capitalism
Francis Fukuyama Responds to Liberalism’s Discontents
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Apes of the State created all Music
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100 Books on Democracy

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