Deconstructing Mamas

Latest Episodes:

Star-Spangled Jesus - April Ajoy Oct 29, 2024

“Christian Nationalism is harmful to both Christianity and the country.” April Ajoy

Our episode this week is with April Ajoy, author of the new book, Star-Spangled Jesus, former Christian Nationalist, podcast host and deconstructing mom of two.
April has a fierce passion to recover from the wounds of toxic Christianity and how it plays out in the political arena and to help others do the same. If you feel like you would like to understand more about exactly what Christian Nationalism is and learn more about the hope we still have in this volatile time in our history, this podcast episode is for you.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

How Christian Nationalism began and why it's so dangerous.
Why it's important to disentangle faith from politics.
Advice for those of us who feel conflicted, but are afraid of the personal and social consequences of questioning our beliefs.
How we prevent becoming what we’ve walked away from.
Parenting through curious faith and the current political climate.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like demons, witchcraft, big tent, pressure off, loosely, empathy, Christian Nationalism, and liberate. Find out why when you listen.

You can find April at the following:

Instagram: @aprilajoy

Tiktok: @aprilajoy

Get Your Spark Back - Rachel Marie Martin Oct 22, 2024

“Your soul is waiting for you to say yes to it again.” Rachel Marie Martin

Our episode this week is with Rachel Marie Martin, the ever-popular social media site called "Finding Joy." She is the author of three books, the biological mom of seven, the bonus mom to four and the daughter of church planters.
Rachel has a fierce passion to be vulnerable and tell her story in all its "rawness." Why is she so raw? Because that’s her heart and in sharing she hopes you too unearth and celebrate your own bravery, story and purpose.
If you feel like you have lost your "spark" or don't know if you are allowed to or find yourself unable to truly experience joy, this podcast episode is for you.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

Rediscovering your spark, especially for those of us who feel lost or stuck in your own story.
What a "soul map" is and how to create it.
How we can get our spark backin the midst of wiping baby butts and driving kids all over creation.
Wisdom for those who are just feeling so overwhelmed in their day-to-day.
Helping our kids to love their own story and embrace who they are early on, perhaps fanning their “spark” so they never lose it.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "soul map" and "unstuck" and "brave" "wondering." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Rachel at the following:

Website: Finding Joy

Instagram: @finding_joy

Facebook: Finding Joy

Spiritual Sexuality - Kelly Edmiston Oct 15, 2024

Body and spirit marry in the chapel of the soul. They marry every minute of every day, in all activities and in all inactivity, in all thoughts and in all actions, or they marry not at all. (If) They don’t marry, we do not know sexuality with soul, and therefore our sexuality remains incomplete and insufficiently human. We do not find the soul of sex by spiritualizing the body but by coming to appreciate its mysteries and by daring to enter into its sensuousness. --Thomas Moore

Our episode this week is with Dr. Kelly Edmiston, who erves as the Lead Pastor at the Vineyard Church in Stafford, Texas. She enjoys suburban life with her husband Ben, and their three children. Kelly's passion is the intersection between spirituality and sexuality and providing space for all people to learn to live free from shame.
If you have been harmed by purity culture, don't know what to do with yourself and your own sexuality or if you struggle with receiving pleasure and especially if you don't know how to broach the subject with your kids, this podcast episode is for you.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

The harm of purity culture and why parents who are "deconstructing their faith" struggle to talk to their kids.
Contemplative practices for kids of every age when it comes to the intertwining of the body and the soul.
Why pleasure matters and how it can lead us to God.
How parents can embody a "sex-positive" message.
Difficult topics such as hookup culture, masturbation, pornography or sexual identity within the framework of spiritual sexuality.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "toenails" and "reparent" and "desire" and "practices" and "authority." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Kelly at the following:

Substack: Kelly Edminston

Instagram: @kmedmiston

Facebook: Kelly Michelle Edmiston

Othered - Jenai Auman Oct 08, 2024

I found the freedom to take up space instead of trying to conform to a mold forged in the fire of the empire. The truth is that to become comfortable in my skin and with my scars, I had to leave a place where scars had to stay hidden. In the space of the wilderness, I learned to like all that was OTHER about me. And I hope you give yourself permission to like all that is OTHER about you, too.
Jenai Auman

Our episode this week is with Jenai Auman, a Filipina-American mom, author of the book, Othered, storyteller and artist. She lives in Houston, TX with her husband and two boys. Drawing from her years of church ministry experience, education, and trauma-related training, she writes on healing, hope and the way forward for those who have experienced spiritual abuse and religious trauma.
If you feel “othered” and unwelcome in traditional Christian spaces, this podcast episode is for you.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

Marginalization within the church.
How Jenai's personal journey as a biracial individual shaped her understanding of belonging and exclusion, both within the church and in broader society.
How people who feel marginalized by the church can cultivate a sense of belonging within themselves, even when the community around them fails to provide it.
How the journey toward self-belonging impacts the way we relate to others, especially those who may still be part of the religious institutions that caused harm.
Wisdom for parents who want to guide their children through the process of finding or creating their own spiritual belonging.
How to navigate the balance between teaching our children about faith and protecting them from the potential harm that can come from toxic religious environments
Some practical ways to create a family culture that embraces belonging and inclusion.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "empire" and "safe" and "chosen" and "EMO Joanne Gaines." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Jenai at the following:

Website: jenaiauman.com

Instagram: @jenaiauman

Facebook: Jenai Auman
Threads: @jenaiauman

Joy Without Guilt - Chelsea Haines Oct 01, 2024

One purpose of healing is to be able to experience joy. Our subconscious seeks what is familiar. Joy without guilt is not familiar to many. (Chelsea Haines)

We start off Season Six (can you believe it?) with Chelsea Haines, otherwise known as @yourgutsygal and the founder of the Gut Health Agency. So many of you have asked "what do we do now" to move into a healthy and wholistic body/spiritual space, and if this is you, this podcast episode is for you.

On this episode, we explore the idea of healing our nervous system through our gut, but it's certainly not just our physical gut, but also our inner "gut" as it communicates with our souls. Some of the topics we explore are these:

How our physical, emotional and spiritual are intertwined and why that's so important in our healing.
How trauma as a result of high-control religion might produce chronic physical symptoms and how we can heal from that.
Neuroplasticity and memory reconsolidation and how this might be key in our healing journeys.
Why joy is so often paired with guilt and how we can work to experience pure joy in our lives.
How all this plays out in our parenting journeys.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "energetic sponges" and "edges" and "random bombardment" and "" and "firm wall." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Chelsea at the following:

Website: theguthealthagency.com

Instagram: @yourgutsygal

Reclaiming Internal Authority - Esther Joy Goetz May 21, 2024

We tend to look for answers outside ourselves. From books. Church. From friends or family. Even from society. We are called deeper, to sink down inside ourselves, where what we need is intertwined with what the Divine has to offer us. The place where we can trust and rest and then go and do. (Esther Goetz)

Our guest this week is our very own Esther Goetz. Esther is a deconstructing mama of four, an author and spiritual director, dedicated to helping you take your next step in the growth of your soul.
On this episode, we explore the very important idea of reclaiming our internal authority that was taken away from us by high-control religion, culture and even family systems.
We chat in depth about these ideas:

The value of spiritual direction, what it is not and what it is.
The difficulty of moving from external authority to internal authority. Some of the messages we’ve received in high-control religion.
The importance of embarking on this journey to discover ourselves and take up the mantle of making decisions from a place of internal authority.
Some practical tools for reclaiming our own internal authority.
Taking the practices of spiritual direction and applying them to our parenting.
Resources that Esther has for those who find themself parenting and in this ever-evolving faith journey.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "companionship" and "connection" and "divine spark" and "holy listening" and "midwifery." Find out why when you listen.
LASTLY, we have a HUGE ANNOUNCEMENT at the end of the podcast about a resource that's coming up in the summer! WE ARE SO EXCITED ABOUT IT!
You can find Esther at the following:
Website: estherjoygoetz.com
Spiritual Direction: Heard and Held
Spiritual/Author Spaces:
Facebook: Esther, the Dolly Mama
Instagram: @estherthedollymama
Moms of Big Kids:
Facebook: Moms of Bigs
Instagram: @momsofbigs

Giving Up God - Sarah Henn Hayward May 14, 2024

“We are meaning-making machines. Chaos is uncomfortable, and thinking that everything that happens to us is due to random chance feels cold and impersonal. The brain seeks out patterns and order when they are not necessarily present.” Sarah Henn Hayward

Our guest this week is Sarah Henn Hayward. Sarah is a mom of two, an author and our first self-proclaimed agnostic/atheist on the podcast. To say that our conversation was fascinating and enlightening would be an understatement.

On this episode, we explore these topics:

Unpacking the realization that so much of our former faith was about control and distraction from the realities of life. We were looking for safety and consistency and a formula to explain all of life’s pain.
Embracing the uncomfortable choas/mystery/the "I don't know"
What happened when Sarah finally said the words "I don't believe in God" out loud
Deconstructing faith when it leads to actual de-conversion or agnosticism/atheism
Navigating parenting with a partner who is still believes in God.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "mystery" and "wonder" and "peace" and "what if." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Sarah at the following:

Website: sarahhennhayward.com

Instagram: @shaywardwrites

Facebook: Sarah Henn Hayward

It's Not Complicated - Malynda Hale May 07, 2024

Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate. - Malynda Hale
Malynda Hale, mom, activist, singer, author and actress, is our guest this week. Malynda uses her voice through her music and social media presence as an educating activist to effect change within social justice, female empowerment, LGBTQ+ rights, the Black Lives Matter movement, Antisemitism and Progressive Christianity.
On this podcast episode, we dive deep into lots of that, but we also spend our time hashing out how to truly love ourselves and those around us, especially our kids. "It doesn't have to be complicated" was a theme that came up over and over again, something that felt like a balm to our over-busy and way-over-complicated lives.
We spent time chatting through these incredible questions:
1. You are what you call a "progressive Christian. How would you define progressive christianity for yourself?
2. You use your platform to fight for the things that are important to you, which we really respect and love. What social justice issues do you feel aren’t getting the attention they deserve in the Church?
3. Your quote, "promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate," is powerful, and something that we strive for in our approach to deconstruction. How do you apply this to your life and why does it feel important to you?
4. We talk a lot about how our own journeys shift the ways that we relate to our kids. How does your work as an activist and artist spill over into your parenting?
5. Picture yourself sitting at your dinner table with your daughter. What would be your overarching message to her about God, faith and herself?
Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "normal" and "change" and "love" and "simple." Find out why when you listen.
You can find Malynda at the following:
Website: malyndahale.com
Instagram: @malyndahale
Threads: @malyndahale
P.S. There is one passion project that Malynda speaks about on the podcast that we want to highlight this week. R.O.C ERA is a non profit organization that was founded with the hope to make the impossible, possible by serving our underprivileged children in black and brown communities.

They provide mentoring programs that curate experiences and expose them to programming that is not traditionally available to youth in impoverished communities. Programs that consist of visual and performing arts, fitness, nutrition, social and emotional skills.

Love Yourself - Amber Schultz Apr 30, 2024

The Church needs to be called out and take responsibility for the damage it has done to people. The survivors should be heard. So no, I don't always talk about the good. Because until the darkness is exposed, and more people are removed from power that absolutely should not be in it, I will not be quiet. - Amber Schultz
Amber Schultz, founder of Fundie Freed, a webcast devoted to telling religious trauma survivor stories, comes on the podcast as our guest this week. Amber is a single mama of three daughters and is highly passionate about breaking free from toxic religion and learning to love herself and others fully and without conditions.
On this podcast episode, we hear Amber's own story of survival, having freed herself from an abusive family and church, along with the intermingling of those harmful systems. Amber walks us through these very difficult and important questions:

You grew up in an abusive home, where silence and obedience were strictly enforced and you were kept under complete subjugation. Can you share with us, as you are comfortable, an example from your childhood that might give us deeper insight?
Once you gave yourself permission to seek therapy, what were some of the toxic theologies that you discovered were, as you’ve described them, “lies you’d been told?” What’s been the hardest lie to unlearn?
You are learning to love yourself. Was there a specific “aha” moment or tool that has helps you to do this? (we all struggle here)
We love your platform and your YouTube channel, Fundie Freed. Why did you create this space?

We also talk loud and long about taking a different parenting path than the way Amber grew up and what key values she brings into her parenting as she navigates her life as a single mom with three girls. These are powerful and have to do with purity culture, bodily autonomy, emotional health and creating a safe space.
You will be both heart-broken and filled with all kinds of hope as you listen to this episode. We hope you join in.
You can find Amber at the following:
Youtube: youtube.com/@fundiefreed

Facebook: Fundie Freed

Instagram: @fundiefreed

Deconstructing Your Faith Without Losing Yourself - Angela J. Herrington Apr 23, 2024

Deconstruction invites us to become really honest about what we believe, why we hold those beliefs sacred, how they influence the way we relate to our creator, and who is actually served by our beliefs. If we trust the process enough to lower our walls and honestly engage with our questions, deconstruction promises to reveal undiscovered bias, limiting beliefs, and any flawed doctrines that actively harm people. - Angela J. Herrrington

Back for round two, Angela J. Herrington, comes on the podcast as our guest this week. We are doubly-thrilled to have her back! Angela is a deconstructing mama to five kiddos, a deconstruction coach and as of late, an author to a brand-new book!
Whether you are deconstructing due to curiosity, uncertainty, or a compelling inner voice, Angela helps you explore the deeply personal journey of faith deconstruction compassionately and without judgment. Together, the two of you will slog through the uncertainties and complexities of faith deconstruction. Laughing, crying, and raging against the toxic religious machine together.
On this podcast episode, we find out why Angela is so passion about writing her new book Deconstructing your Faith without Losing Yourself and especially tackle these questions:
1. Is deconstruction a trend? Why or why not?
2. How do we navigate deconstruction without losing what feels like our core selves?
3. What tools are there to sort through our ideas and beliefs and why is a sense of autonomy/internal authority so important in this process?
4. How do we navigate the resentments that we might still hold for our old church, family members, belief systems?
We also discover what hope there is for our kids as we navigate a shifting and evolving faith, especially perhaps the importance of a relationship with themselves, so vital and different than perhaps the way we grew up.
Angela is feisty and fantastic (if we say so ourselves). You will find yourself nodding along and saying lots of "me toos" and "amens" (if that's even still allowed - winky face).
You can find Angela at the following:
Website: www.angelajherriington.com

Facebook: Angela J Herrington

The Faith Deconstruction Cafe

Instagram: @angelajherrington

Pinterest: @angelajherrington

X: @angherrington

Linked In: Angela J Herrington

YouTube: Angela J Herrington

Walking Out of & Into Spiritual Rooms - Emily P. Freeman Apr 16, 2024

The question we need to ask is this one: Am I being pushed by fear or led by love? (Emily P. Freeman)

We are absolutely thrilled to have Emily P. Freeman join us on the podcast this week. Emily is a New York Times best-selling author, a mom to three, a spiritual director and podcast hostess.
Her most important work is to help create soul space and offer spiritual companionship and discernment for anyone struggling with decision fatigue and trying to make a life in the process.
Emily vulnerably speaks about her own spiritual journey and we walked through ways we can be pushed by fear instead of led by love and perhaps how to flip the narrative in our own life when it comes to making hard decisions, especially in the transitional space of walking out of and into the various "rooms" in our lives: faith communities, seasons, jobs, and so many more.
She allows us a behind-the-scenes look into her own very difficult decision to walk out of the "room" of the church she and her family were an integral part of and all the emotions surrounding it: grief and relief to name just two. She guides into understanding how leaving something as important to her as church helped us to hold onto her very important faith.
Our favorite part of the podcast was two-fold: when we discover why it's so essential to be your own friend during times of transition, especially during an evolving faith journey, and also how Emily has navigated walking in and out of many different spiritual "rooms" while in the throes of raising her three children.
This episode will be a balm to your spiritual soul, a respite in the rush of life and give room for you to take a long, slow, deep breath
You can find Emily at the following:
Instagram: @emilypfreeman
Website: www.emilypfreeman.com
Podcast: The Next Right Thing

Finding My Voice Again - Leslie Nease Apr 09, 2024

I want to be a voice for the invisibles. (Leslie Nease)
What do a Survivor contestant, deconstructing mama of four bigs, former Christian radio broadcaster, life and faith transitions coach, author and newly-minted podcast hostess have in common? They are all named Leslie Nease, our podcast guest this week.
Leslie is quick-witted, well-spoken and passionate about coming alongside of people in their ever-evolving spiritual journeys and making sure they feel seen, heard and absolutely not alone. She wants to make the "invisibles" (those of us who are afraid of speaking out about our deconstructing journey for whatever reason) find our voice again, the way she has found her own.
On this episode, we explore all the ways we have been shut down, silenced, or spiritually bypassed and discover why it's so important that we discover who we are and why our stories matter (and why it's good that we begin to tell them).
Leslie also gives us some really good tips about what's at the root of having a long-term, healthy relationship with your kids, especially one that has ridden all the religious and spiritual rollercoasters that come along with deconstructing toxic faith systems.
This one is a goodie, if we say so ourselves.
You can find Leslie at the following:
Instagram: @leslienease
Website: www.leslieneasecoaching.com
Podcast: Honoring the Journey

Deconstructing Spanking - Matt Shantz Apr 02, 2024

*trigger warning*

“My passion is to have a kinder and gentler world for our little people in faith spaces.” (Matt Shantz)
Meet Matt Shantz, husband, dad, social worker in child and adolescent mental health, and spiritual mentor. Matt is our podcast guest this week and we are so grateful to have had one of the most complicated, difficult and needed conversations we've had on the podcast to date.
This week, we tackle the subject of spanking and we do so in a way that will be informative and passionate, full of stories and science, but also allow room for both the heartbreak and hope.
We discuss the trauma of spanking in all categories: physical, spiritual, emotional, relational and even sexual.
We share stories (even our own) of harm and also of repair and touch on the way our view of God might be behind how we view the healthy "discipline" of our kids.
We chat in depth about the research surrounding spanking, what it says and perhaps why the "Christian church" has been at odds with what's been found (i.e., why do many high-control religions deem spanking as necessary discipline?).
Lastly, we move into a posture of hope for a kinder and gentler future. What can we do instead of resort to violence with our kids? Why is that so important? How can we repair our relationships with ourselves and our kids when we blow it? What should we do if we've been either the victim of spanking or the perpetrator of it?
We are so incredibly grateful to Matt for his transparency, vulnerability and passion when it comes to this subject and also recognize that this might be incredibly difficult for some of you to listen to for a host of reasons.
It's why we are so glad there is someone like Matt who provides spiritual care and mentorship for wholeness, embracing a client-centered and compassionate approach. Matt's focus is on integrating and supporting spirituality, nurturing emotional wellness, respecting individual beliefs and experiences. Through active listening and non-judgmental guidance, Matt hopes to empower individuals to find meaning, strength, faith and hope.
You can find his good work at the following:
Website: mattshantz.org
Instagram: @shantzmatt

Essentially Good & Worthy of Love - Stephanie Stalvey Mar 26, 2024

I’m trying to be in alignment with what I understand what the true principles of love to actually be. (Stephanie Stalvey)
The passionate and kind Stephanie Stalvey is our guest this week on the podcast. Stephanie is a deconstructing mama of one, high school art teacher, and painter writer and comic book artist extraordinaire. She loves music and animals and going to the beach when its cold.
She's been irresistibly drawn to making comics since she was a kid. Comics are intimate, they are rock and roll, they’re visual prose that gives both the writer and reader a highly personal experience of the story.
She's currently working on a long form memoir that focuses on her experiences as a mother, a lover, and 90s church kid. In her work, she reflects on coming of age inside the evangelical church and her subsequent reckoning with religious and spiritual ideas as an adult.
On this episode, just like in her comics, you will hear Stephanie's portrait of a continual pursuit to understand herself, her ideological inheritance, her relationships, her God, and her place in this wild, strange, sacred world we all share.

You can find the Stephanie in these spaces:
Instagram: @stephanie.stalvey.artist
Website: www.stephaniestalvey.com
Patreon Community: www.patreon.com/stephaniestalvey

You Will Always Belong - Matthew Paul Turner Mar 19, 2024

“God is like a fort, strong and secure with walls that are mighty and safe. Inside, there are hidden places to hold you when you’re scared or need a quiet place to rest.” What is God Like (Matthew Paul Turner & Rachel Held Evans)
The spunky and amazing Matthew Paul Turner is our guest this week on the podcast. Matthew is a dad of three, New York Time's best-selling children's author, and accomplished photographer and journalist.
Matthew's fiery, yet gentle spirit and his passion to help others belong to and be completely themselves and to understand the unconditional love of God is contagious.
On this episode, you will hear wild stories of burning Barbies and tears in parking lots, guns hidden in pulpits and unforeseen joy and healing. Matthew speaks of his long journey into deconstructing his faith, how his gift of writing children's books unfolded, and the gift of belonging that he has given to himself and now is pouring into others, especially his children.
You will find yourself laughing and crying all within moments of each other as you listen, but mostly you will find yourself, period.
Don't miss out!
You can find the Matthew in these spaces:
Instagram: @matthewpaulturner
Facebook: @matthewpaulturner
Website: www.matthewpaulturner.com
Substack: @matthewpaulturner

Parenting After Deconstruction - Sarah Schwartzendruber Mar 12, 2024

“You aren't going to mess up your kids' theology." (Sarah Swartzendruber)

The brilliant Sarah Swartzendruber is our guest this week on the podcast. Sarah is a mama, pastor, kid's faith curriculum creator (Zippee) and cohort leader for Parenting After Deconstruction.

Most of the parents who reach out to her know what they don't want to teach their kids, but they have no idea what they do want for their families. Sarah's passion is helping parents in deconstruction create healthy spiritual practices for their kids that answer the question, "What now? How can we do this well?"
On this episode, we unpack the "tricky tightrope" of sorting through our own faith and spirituality while trying to raise our kids and Sarah works to empower us with the freedom to reimagine what parenting our kids with a healthy spirituality might look like. We also chat about where to start when it comes to what we pass along to our kids and you might be surprised, not surprised. We answer these three questions:
1. We said it in our intro, your quote, “You aren’t going to mess up your kids’ theology.” But what if we feel like we will and we are?
2. How do we unwind our own fears from how we interact with our children and their faith journey?
3. What are some ways that we can meet our kids in their curiosity about God, heaven, Jesus, etc.
Sarah is brilliant, imaginative and funny, while at the same time, a kick-butt theologian who will help you to feel like you've got what it takes to walk this "tricky tightrope" in confidence and clarity, but mostly in compassion and curiosity. Don't miss out!
You can find the Sarah in these spaces:
Instagram: @parentingafterdeconstruction

Website: www.parentingafterdeconstuction.com

Diet Culture & Extreme Religion - Trisha Wilkerson Mar 05, 2024

“Self-discovery is the goal. Self-compassion is the vibe." (Trisha Wilkerson)
We start off Season Five with Trisha Wilkerson as our guest this week on the podcast. And it's really good! Trisha is a deconstructing mama, author, former pastor's wife turned certified Nutrition Coach. She works with individuals and groups, guiding a behavioral change process towards increasing overall wellness. Her style is wholeheartedness, with curiosity and gentle challenges.
Trisha's journey in Transformation, Healing, and Holistic Wellness began in the Church, where she learned to listen and love. 25 years in the Evangelical Church taught me much about walking with brokenness and pain and learning how to heal. She learned how to lead people, counsel, write, and coach.
But along the way, she began to discover uncomfortable truths about extreme religion and the trauma that results from the disconnection from our bodies and, in all honesty, disconnection from ourselves. She also researched the way diet culture and extreme religion are intertwined and how we can untangle the harmful messages of judgment and shame and move into a space of compassionate curiosity and deep connection with our bodies.
On this episode, our fascinating conversation leads us into the murky waters of diet culture and how extreme religion was the perfect space for all the harmful messages surrounding the body and the constant striving for perfection. We also discover new ways of engaging with food, our "already good" bodies and the recovery of souls along the way. This time around, we find out, not what we need to be teaching our kids about faith, God and themselves, but what what they have to teach us.
Trisha is kind, gentle and passionate and views journeying with others now as such an adventure– with not one destination! Embracing mystery has emboldened her to be curious and love people with more gentleness and dignity. Advocating for people has meant that she step into their stories with them and together seek change for their individual growth and healing.
And pretty soon, she will have a book out called "Already Good" How Diet Culture and Religion Exploit Our Desires For Worthiness. Not sure about you, but we can't wait to get it.
You can find the Trisha in these spaces:
Instagram: @trisharwilkerson

Website (her Wellness Coaching practice): www.trishawilkerson.com

The Struggle - Lizz Enns Petters and Esther Joy Goetz Dec 05, 2023

“Chronic trauma can overwhelm our internal coping resources. Trauma disrupts the same system that regulates our body’s stress response causing a hyperactive fight-or-flight reaction. It’s not just all in our head. It’s in our bodies too. (Brittany Moses)
Guess what??? The guests on our podcasts this week are...drum roll please... us.
We are closing out Season Four with a conversation with just the two of us.
We dive deep into THE STRUGGLE to heal our spiritual trauma and how our bodies have suffered and how reconnecting with our them is a messy, but necessary and beautiful business and vital to our overall journey to heal. The struggle is real, friends. Truly.
We even chat about hell and Christmas and how we are finding ways to resist (both internally and externally) the messages we've received about those two things, plus a whole bunch of others.
We love having our podcast and we are so grateful that you would take the time to listen. We will be back with a full and amazing line-up in just three months.
You can find the two of us at the following spaces:

LIZZ ENNS PETTERS:
Instagram: @lizzennspetters
Facebook: Lizz Enns Petters, the Deconstructed Mama
Website: elizabethpetters.com
ESTHER JOY GOETZ:
Instagram: @estherthedollymama
Facebook: Esther, the Dolly Mama
Website: estherjoygoetz.com

I Might Be Wrong - Zack Hunt Nov 28, 2023

“Admitting we could be wrong about the things we are most convinced of, that are so fundamental to who we are, is painful and becoming someone new is scary.” (an excerpt from Godbreathed, Zack Hunt)
Zack Hunt (sometimes known as Zaack Hunt around the internet, a deconstructing dad, former pastor, prolific author and BBQ magician extraordinaire, is our guest this week.
Zack has spent the last decade writing about the interplay of faith and politics and when not doing that good work, he can be found traveling and trying out new restaurants with his wife, playing with their two little girls, and sneaking out onto his back porch trying to smoke the perfect rack of ribs on his beloved smoker.
After we dive into Zack's never-ending and evolving faith journey, we dive into the space of how he got to the place of "I might be wrong," and where that wild idea that has taken him.
We speak about all kinds of fancy theological terms like exegesis and "sola scriptura," but in the end of the day, we share stories about fear and grief and walking this very nuanced and difficult road of parenting in this new found space and how LOVE is the beginning and end of the story.
Zack's humor will have you laughing and his vulnerability will have you crying. And you will find out why it matter so much that we are all God-breathed. Plus, you will find out why the heck most of his internet spaces are Zaack. Listen in.
You can find Za(a)ck at the following spaces:

Instagram: @zaackhunt
Facebook: Zack Hunt (but if you are searching, look for @zaackhunt)
Twitter (not X according to Zack): @zaackhunt
Website: zackhunt.net

My Love, God is Everywhere - The Reverend Mamas Nov 21, 2023

“My love, God is here when you choose goodness and are living from your heart. When you follow the path of love, God is with you from the start. And God is there when you mess up, if you make a choice that isn’t best. It doesn’t mean you’re bad; it just means you’re human-like all the rest.” (an excerpt from My Love, God is Everywhere)
Victoria Robb Powers and Cameron Vickrey, also known as the Reverend Mamas, are our guests this week on the podcast. Victoria is the Senior Pastor at Royal Lane Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, and is the first female to pastor a Baptist church in the DFW Metroplex. She is a graduate of Baylor University and Brite Divinity School at TCU in Fort Worth. Victoria lives with her husband and three children in Lake Highlands. She loves to read, write, preach and teach.

Cameron is a graduate of Furman University and Wake Forest University School of Divinity. She currently works for Fellowship Southwest, sharing stories of ministry and mission along the US--Mexico border and advocating for migrants. She is also passionate about public education, and co-founded a nonprofit called RootEd, galvanizing parents of public school children to tell their stories and become advocates. Cameron lives in San Antonio with her family. Her free time is spent with her kids; wishing she were a gardener; teaching Sunday school to middle schoolers, and reading lots of books.
On this episode, our conversation leads us to the deep questions of life and especially from kids about who God is and where God is and when God is. We chat about subjects from soap operas and healthy theology to original sin vs original blessing to how reparenting ourselves while we parent our own kids is deeply healing.
Their children's book, My Love, God is Everywhere, is a new favorite of ours and both Lizz and Esther have experienced its healing nature for us as grown ups (I think they both use it devotionally) and also the beautiful message it has for our kids.
At one point in the episode, which you have to listen to find out, both Lizz and Esther had their pens out frantically writing something down that changed their perspectives forever.
If you want to make room for your own child-like soul to breathe and heal, this is a must-listen to episode. Like seriously, folks.
You can find the Reverend Mamas and their book in these spaces:
Instagram: @thereverendmamas
More about Their Book: My Love, God is Everywhere

Deconstructing Hell - Chad Bahl Nov 14, 2023

"I would hope never to feel so confident in my theology as not to be willing to correct a wrong view once presented with compelling evidence." Chad Bahl (Deconstructing Hell)

Chad Bahl is our podcast guest this week. Chad is a theologian, step-dad and author. Chad is also a kind, humble, deep, brilliant soul who is on a personal mission to seek the whole truth no matter what the cost.
On this episode, after we find out one of Chad's fun and super unique hobbies and his surprising day job, we take a deep dive into Open and Relationship Theology (think and un-controlling, loving and co-partnering kind of God), the problem of evil, but mostly the horrific and toxic theology over Eternal Conscious Torment (otherwise known as Hell as many of us grew up understanding it).

We also talk about our the book that Chad compiled and edited that Lizz and Esther had a chance to be a part of called Deconstructing Hell and how each one of us got to the place where, as we like to say in these parts, "hell is OFF the table." And then, especially how this "hell" thing plays out in parenting (hint, it's awful).
This conversation will pretty much get you thinking out of the box and free you from that box that has kept you afraid and small. Because, being pushed by fear is terrible, but being led by love is something entirely beautiful.
You can find Chad in these spaces:

Facebook: Chad Bahl
Facebook Group: Deconstructing Hell

Instagram: @bahlchad
Website: thelaytheologian.com

Liminal Space & Winter's Gifts - Kaitlin Curtice Nov 07, 2023

“In a time when we love to keep ourselves separated from one another with our ideologies and beliefs, liminality asks how we exist in those in between spaces.” - Kaitlin Curtis (Living Resistance)

Kaitlin Curtice is our podcast guest this week. Kaitlin is an award-winning author, poet-storyteller, and public speaker. As an enrolled citizen of the Potawatomi nation, Kaitlin writes on the intersections of spirituality and identity and how that shifts throughout our lives.She also speaks on these topics to diverse audiences who are interested in truth-telling and healing.
As an inter-spiritual advocate, Kaitlin participates in conversations on topics such as colonialism in faith communities, and she has spoken at many conferences on the importance of inter-faith relationships.
On this episode, we find out what Kaitlin means by liminal space and why it is such an important part of our spiritual journey. This fascinating discussion leads us into ways we can engage in the unknown, wilderness of deconstructing and parenting.
We also chat about Kaitlin's new children's book, Winter's Gifts, the tale of a young Potawatomi girl named Dani whose family celebrates the darkest season of the year by treasuring the slowness that winter brings to our families.
If you struggle with winter and want to you allow yourself to experience the gifts of the season that might seem bleak and hopeless, this episode is exactly what you need to hear. We sure did.
You can find Kaitlin in these spaces:

Instagram: @kaitlincurtice
Facebook: Kaitlin B. Curtice
Website: kaitlincurtice.com

Stories and Solidarity - Dr. Drew Hart Oct 31, 2023

“Following Jesus out of the entanglements of Christian supremacy and white supremacy are deep convictions. We believe God desires so much more from the Church than the frequently empty religiosity and hypocrisy we have become adjusted to.” --Dr. Drew Hart
Dr. Drew Hart, black activist, racial reconciliation expert, biblical studies professor and father of three boys, is our guest this week. Drew is the author of Trouble I've Seen and Who Will Be A Witness.Following Jesus out of the entanglements of Christian supremacy and white supremacy are deep convictions of Drew. He believes God desires so much more from the Church than the frequently empty religiosity and hypocrisy we have become adjusted to. When we begin to envision God’s dream for us together, we can strive for the flourishing of all people by doing justice and the things that make for peace.

On this episode, we talk with Drew about his unique story being raised in a black evangelical church in a diverse suburb of Philadelphia and what happened to him upon going to a mostly white Christian college. What happened and why did that change the course of his life forever?
We also unpack what it means to have true solidarity with those who are marginalized and oppressed and how we, as the privileged, can begin the work in our own hearts and in the lives of our children.
This episode is chock-full of goodness and it is definitely one that you do not want to miss. Especially if racial reconciliation feels overwhelming and you don't know where to start.
You can find Drew in these spaces:
Instagram: @druhart
Facebook: Drew G.I. Hart
Website: drewgihart.com

From Constrictive to Expansive - Kyndall Rae Rothaus Oct 17, 2023

Kyndall Rae Rothaus, a preacher, poet, feminist theologian, spiritual director, and preaching coach, is our guest this week. She is the author of Thy Queendom Come: Breaking Free from Patriarchy to Save Your Soul (2021) and Preacher Breath (2015). She is the co-founder and Executive Director of Nevertheless She Preached, a national, ecumenical preaching conference designed to elevate the voices of womxn on the margins and the founder of the Soul of Preaching Project.

Kyndall is a sought-after public speaker whose piercing insights into the human spiritual condition are delivered with poetic and rhetorical brilliance. She is an award-winning preacher and spoken word artist. Kyndall spent eight years as a Senior Pastor in Baptist churches in Texas, where, among other things, she left a legacy of fighting for LGBTQ+ inclusion in the church before leaving institutional church work to start her own business working with individuals to heal from religious trauma and re-imagine their spirituality. Kyndall is a queer woman and the single mom of two adopted children who are the biggest joys of her life.
On this episode, we uncover the big ideas behind the "Queendom of God" and also why being queer provides one beautiful way to move from being constrictive to a life that's expansive. Kyndall also talks about how hard and holy being a single, queer mom of two adoptive little girls is and the overarching message she wants these two beautiful souls to know in their bones.
Kyndall is passionate and tender, knowledgeable and compassionate. She has a deep respect, awe, and curiosity towards those who come across her path and her work as a spiritual director is to bear compassionate witness to the depths of others' lives, and, where appropriate, call forth the transformation their soul is in the process of birthing themselves.
This episode will have you nodding your head, feeling seen, and brimming with hope for your deconstructing future.
You can find Kyndall in these spaces:

Instagram: @kyndallraerothaus
Facebook: Kyndall Rae Rothaus, Author
Website: kyndallraerothaus.com

Deconstructing Grief - Dr. Glenn Siepert Oct 17, 2023

This Week on the Podcast:
Dr. Glenn Siepert, a deconstructing dad, former pastor, author and podcast host of the What If Project, is our guest this week.Glenn creates a safe space for people to explore this idea: What if there are ways of thinking about God and faith that are different than what our traditions have handed us? .
On this episode, we ask a big What If question: what do we do with our grief during deconstruction? What if there are ways of thinking about and approaching grief than what our traditions have handed us? What if the grief process can be very different and can be more healing and whole? What do we do now that we don't necessarily have the certainty about the afterlife that we once had? And how does this work out in our parenting?
Glenn is a kind-hearted, brilliant, and passionate soul who has walked the journey of grief, due to the recent death of his dad, and shares vulnerably with us in a way that will make you feel heard and held, and will give you some tools when you find yourself walking the path of loss.
You can find Glenn at the following spaces:
Instagram: @what1fproject
Facebook: What If Project
Tiktok: @whatifproject
Website: whatifproject.net

Your Body is a Revolution - Tara Teng Oct 04, 2023

Tara Teng, an Embodiment Coach who works in the intersections of spirituality and sexuality, is our guest this week. Tara helps people find their way back to their bodies, overcome shame, heal trauma and dismantle purity culture in a way that is in alignment with their values and beliefs so that they can build a healthy, sexual ethic and thrive in freedom and wholeness.
On this episode, we explore the ways we have been separated from our bodies and consequently from each other and why that is so damaging to us.
We also venture into what we can do now to become fully embodied so that we can heal and also how this works in the tricky tightrope of parenting and deconstructing and ways we can encourage embodiment in our kids.

Tara, like Esther, is an Enneagram Eight and her passion for restoration and justice is empowering and enlightening. When you listen, her fierce tenderness will awaken your heart and it perhaps ignite a fire inside your soul. It sure did for us!

You can find Tara at the following spaces:

Instagram: @misstarateng
Facebook: Tara Teng
Website: www.tarateng.com

Evolve to Survive - Ericka Graham Oct 03, 2023

Ericka Graham, freelance pastor and Bible-nerd extraordinaire, mama to two littles, recovering 12-stepper, and podcast hostess, is our guest this week. Ericka has a passion for reframing the Bible to be a source of life and healing and spreading that word far and wide.
On this episode, we dive deep into the hard spaces of OCD manifested in scrupulosity, drug addiction and herky-jerky recovery and the ways that the Bible has been used to harm others.
We also lean into the hopeful ideas of radically loving ourselves, fighting for our healing and how Scripture can have a beautiful role in these when we come at it with a different posture. And to boot, how important this all is in parenting!

Talking with Ericka was like having lunch with a wise and vulnerable friend and also a nerdy and brilliant theologian. It's a magical combination that you don't want to miss!!

You can find Ericka at the following spaces:
Instagram: @mrserickagraham
Podcast: Curiosly with Ericka Graham

Is God Violent? - Dr. Eric Seibert Sep 26, 2023

Dr. Eric Seibert, Old Testament scholar and professor, dad of tweens and teens, prolific author and Minecraft guru, (yes, you read that right) is our guest this week. Eric is passionate against churchce sanctioned violenebecause he is troubled by how much violence Christians condone and sometimes participate in. I do NOT believe this is what God intended," he says (with a little bit of umph in his voice).
On this episode, we unpack why it's incredibly harmful to believe that God is a violent, but also supposedly loving God. Where does the notion come from? And why? Eric unpacks why violence is completely antithetical to love and has no part in the Christian faith.
We also dive deep into the subject of Hell as eternal conscious torment and if and how Scripture approaches this subject and why the notion of hell contributes to a more controlling, violent parenting model vs. an un-controlling, self-giving model, perhaps even informing how we might discipline our children. We actually tackle the subject of spanking.

When we spoke with Eric, it felt warm and inviting, yet somehow, provocative and motivational. Eric embodies non-violence in his being, yet makes room for a gentle strength that calls us to think in a way perhaps unknown to us before.
You can find Eric's books at his author page on Amazon here:
Dr. Eric Seibert

Rewilding Our Soul - Mary DeJong Sep 19, 2023

We continue Season Four with Mary DeJong. Mary lives in Seattle, Washington's Rainier Valley in Columbia City, at Hedgewood, a home that for over a decade has hosted community connection through the reclamation and restoration of a neighborhood forest.
Mary finds herself an eco-theologian and urban naturalist who delves into why place matters, the sacramentality of creation, and how together this informs the development of our ecological self.

Mary terms this work “sacred eco-awakening” and sees this as a critical and holy endeavor as it allows us to come to grievous terms of our human history and to posture ourselves once again side-by-side with the whole of creation, putting our souls back in conversation with the anima mundi, the soul of the world.

Her husband, four children, St. Findus and the Flock (a feral kitty and ten chickens and a duck!), medicinal and herbal “Hildagarden,” and yard—a Certified Wildlife Habitat—keep her busy when her pen does not.
On this episode, we unpack what it means rewild, not only our outer landscapes, but mostly the inner landscape of our soul. We discover why wholeness and communion with the natural world so valuable and how rewilding our own stories can help us to reimagine our images of God, ourselves and even our parenting.
Mary is passionate, brilliant and gentle. As you listen to this episode, you will find yourself immersed in your own inner soulscape, a place that longs to be restored to its beautiful wholeness. You'll feel both invigorated and at peace as you listen.
You can find Mary's work, Waymarkers, at the following:
Instagram: @waymarkers

Facebook: Waymarkers

Website: waymarkers.net
**RESOURCE ALERT**
Commit to a soul journey through the whole wheel of the year! Every season that we move through throughout the year has tremendous potential and meaning for our soul formation.
In the Wild Seasons rewilding courses, you will be companioned around the calendar of the year, deepening into the ways the more-than-human world resources you and expresses aspects of the Sacred Wild.
Mary has so generously offered WILDAUTUMN20, a 20% discount code for Wild Autumn or the entire Wild Seasons series. Learn more about Wild Autumn here, and the bundled Wild Seasons series, which includes Wild Autumn, Wild Winter, Wild Spring, and Wild Summer.
It’s wonderful teaching in a self-paced format, and provides a jumping place for families to begin exploring nature as their own holy place of worship, communion, and sacred connection.

Safe Sex - Dr. Laura E. Anderson Sep 12, 2023

We are so excited to launch Season Four with Dr. Laura E. Anderson, the author of that wisdom. Dr. Laura is a psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach and consultant, writer and educator specializing in complex and developmental trauma, dynamics of power and control and religious trauma.

She views herself as still a work in progress. She believes healing is a life-long process rather than a point you get to where you say “there, I am done, healed.” However, who she is today is quite different and she is proud of who she's become as a result of healing her nervous system, resolving trauma and recovering from high demand/high control religion.
On this episode, we unpack what it means to uncouple sex from pleasure and reclaim our right and ability to experience pleasure and, of course, sexual pleasure in a way that feels safe and empowering at the same time. We also work through how we can begin to reflect this in the way we parent our children and reparent ourselves.
Dr. Laura is brilliant, kind, and practical. As you listen to this episode, we believe you will feel as if you've had an initial therapy session and we hope to give you help to take more and more steps toward healing from the trauma of purity culture.
You can find Dr. Laura at the following:
Instagram: @drlauraeanderson

Facebook: Dr. Laura E Anderson

Website: drlauraeanderson.com

Embodied Faith - Annalise Hume Jul 25, 2023

Annalise Hume, is our guest on our perfectly-timed summer bonus episode. Annalise is a passionate, creative, down-to-earth mover who loves listening and asking questions to help others recognize the movement of God in their life.
After growing up in Boise, Idaho, she earned a BFA in Dance, spending a year touring with a performing-arts organization in South Africa upon graduation.
Before moving to South Africa, she met an amazing South African who happened to live in Idaho. They got married and landed in Princeton, New Jersey where Annalise earned her MDiv as well as my MA in Christian Education and Formation from Princeton Theological Seminary.
After seminary, Annalise felt a deep pull toward training as a spiritual director and completed a two-year Spiritual Direction training program with Oasis Ministries.
Now she teaches, facilitates movement workshops, and offers Spiritual Direction with the hope of helping individuals and groups take steps toward wholeness and flourishing.
In her spare time, you will find her walking around outside barefoot, dancing in the kitchen with her son, watching tennis matches, going to the theater, dreaming up her next trip, and playing with her whoodle puppy.
On this episode, Annalise flips the script of a disembodied faith, one where we deny ourselves and try to control our "flesh" (because it is evil) and offers a completely different point of view, one that brings us back into our bodies (because they are sacred) and celebrate them as integral to our experience of faith. Annalise believes that as Christians who confess faith in an Incarnated Christ, the Word made Flesh, our embodied experience must matter and our bodies are central to our human flourishing.
This episode will enlighten you and help you to return to yourself. And be prepared right in the middle of it to stop what you are doing as Annalise has you engage in an embodied spiritual practice that will help you discover where you find yourself today.
Plus, find out what all this means for parenting in a new way, one that helps children express themselves and lean into the beautiful mystery of how their bodies are the place where their spirits speak (hint: it's the same for us too).
Annalise not only provides individual spiritual direction and embodied faith classes, she has a very special group spiritual direction for moms called, "Sacred Companions for the Mystery of Motherhood." You don't want to miss out!!
You can find Annalise at the following:
Instagram: @embodiedfaithproject
Website: withannalise.com

Reparenting Ourselves - Bekah McNeel May 23, 2023

Bekah McNeel is our final guest of Season Three. Bekah is a native of San Antonio, Texas, where she has been a reporter for nine years. Her work has appeared in print with Christianity Today, The San Antonio Current, and the Public Justice Review, as well as online with the Christian Science Monitor, Sojourners, the Texas Tribune, the Hechinger Report, The 74 Million, and numerous local outlets.

Bekah calls herself a story-teller, but she is especially known for her ability to communicate the high stakes of education and immigration policy and bring clarity to complex systems. Bekah keeps the human beings most affected at the front of her coverage.
Bekah is married to Lewis McNeel, an architect. They have two young children who, while they do not yet have careers, are very busy (winky face).
On this episode, which was prompted by Bekah's recent book, Bringing Up Kids When Church Lets You Down, we chat through all the ups and downs of parenting while deconstructing. This is one of those conversations that will make you wanting more and yet feeling so full at the same time.
Bekah is brilliant, a bit snarky in a wonderful way, highly self-aware of her strengths and struggles and gives us solid reasons why this whole parenting journey is not about our kids. It's mostly about us. How can we reparent ourselves in this new faith and freedom that we find ourselves in, while also trying to heal from the harm that's been done to us so that we do not pass it along to our children.
You can find Bekah at the following:
Instagram: @wanderbekah

Facebook: Bekah McNeel

Website: bekahmcneel.com

The Space Between - Matt Mattson May 16, 2023

Matt Mattson, the "starter" of both the BETWEEN community and Today I Pray For You project on Instagram and Facebook, is our guest this week. Matt dreams of creating a global relational religious movement. Matt believes “church” (and faith exploration) can and should happen in our conversations with others.
He's passionate that the space between us is sacred, a holy space. The way we fill that space — the choices about the way we interact with people — is our faith-come-to-life. He wants your coffee shop chats, your small talk in line at the grocery store, your social media interactions, and your dinner table conversations to feel sacred and holy. Because they are. God (however you understand that idea) lives in the space between us.
Matt has some a fun professional background that he's really proud of (Learn more about him here) and lives in Colorado with his wife and two daughters. Matt believes so deeply that he was put on this planet to help people gather together to talk about the important stuff of life.
Matt's not a pastor or a guru or a priest. Just a person. Like you.
In this episode, Matt takes us all on the ride of our lives with his story-telling, his passion, and especially his vulnerability. We find out four core principles that he embodies both at work and especially at home with his family.
We both were riveted as Matt spoke and believe you will be too. Get ready for a good one!
You can find Matt's passion projects at the following:
Instagram: @todayiprayforyou
Facebook: Today I Pray for You
Website: Between.Church
Facebook Group: BETWEEN Church
YouTube: @betweenchurch
Sign Up for Newsletter HERE

What About the Why? - Liz Mall May 09, 2023

Liz Mall, apologist (fancy word for someone who uses "argument" and "reason" to make a point that something is or isn't true and she has her masters in this area of expertise), deconstructing mama of three littles and podcast hostess, is our guest this week.
She and her cohost provide incredible resources for both faith deconstruction and reconstruction.
They tackle subjects like hell, Biblical genocide, purity culture and even head-coverings (for those of you forced to wear them - yes, it's a thing).
Liz is witty and smart and kind and knows her stuff. When she's not wrangling her three littles, you can find her doing yoga or solving the world's problems in conversations with like-minded people (like us), both her kitchen table and over Zoom.
In this episode, we tackle it ALL. Nothing is off the table. Things like "should kids read the Bible and when" and "what are some very practical steps (five to be exact) can we take when our family and friends ask us to give an apology (not the "I'm sorry" kind, but the "prove yourself" kind) for why we are deconstructing.
You will leave this episode feeling empowered to continue forward on this difficult and freeing journey to figure out what you believe and why it matters.
Make sure you do NOT miss out!
You can find Liz at the following:
Instagram: @deconstructingthemyth
Facebook: Deconstructing the Myth

Tear Everything Down - Melissa Neeb May 02, 2023

Melissa Neeb, author, deconstructing mama of two teens, avid photographer, and podcast hostess is our guest this week.
Her mantra is "love big, live kind" and there could be nothing truer about Melissa. She's highly committed to loving without strings, inclusive of everyone who walks into her home or her life and kindness is her main squeeze.
When she's not caring for babies at her day job, you can find her loving on all of her fur babies (six of them to be exact), writing furiously for social media, photographing nature and always always showing up for her teens (oh yeah, there's a husband somewhere in there too).

Melissa's tender spirit and fierce passion sit side-by-side and she tells it like it is. On this episode, we are reminded that we have permission to "tear it all down to the ground," and rebuild our faith any which way that feels true and beautiful to us. We also talk about what we can do when our kids are on very different faith pages and how we can allow them to have their own journeys to God.
You will find yourself seen, known and understood and especially empowered to walk in the truth and light of your very own faith journey.

Make sure you do NOT miss out!
You can find Melissa at the following:

Faith in The Mess ("love big, live kind")
Instagram: @faith_in_the_mess

Facebook: Faith in the Mess by Melissa Neeb

Never Empty Nest (how to mom teens)

Instagram: @never_empty_nest

Facebook: Never Empty Nest by Melissa Neeb

Two Trees - Mike Morrell Apr 25, 2023

Mike Morrell, coauthor of the Divine Dance with Richard Rohr (a pretty big deal), dad of two, an opti-mystic (which he likes to call himself), and Dudeist Priest (look it up here), is our guest this week.
He's a contemplative-in-process, seeking a more grounded experience of God, life, himself and the world, not because of grand mystical aspiration, but in order to stay sane in the here and now.

He's pretty sure his two girls are funny and brilliant – both my academically ‘gifted’ (as the school system names her aptitude) daughter and my Down syndrome daughter.
Spiritually speaking, he's a recovering fundamentalist, but these days, he draws nourishment from all streams of the Christian family, as well as those of other faiths and none at all.
His soft-spoken, gentle, and very authentic nature as we walk through how the "Two Trees" impact our faith, our parenting and, truth be told, all of our lives, made us wish we could keep talking forever.
Once you listen, you might just want to become an opti-mystic too.
You can find Mike at the following:

Instagram: @genuine michael

Facebook: Michael Morrell

Twitter: @genuine_michael

Website: mikemorrell.org

Purity Culture Recovery - Dr. Camden Morgante Apr 18, 2023

Dr. Camden Morgante, psychologist, coach, writer, and fellow mama is passionate about purity culture recovery, egalitarianism and reconstruction. She currently lives in Knoxville, TN with her husband and her two beautiful children.
We know what is wrong with purity culture—now we need to know how to heal. As a licensed psychologist specializing in sexuality who grew up in the height of purity culture, Dr. Camden, as she is known around the internet, offers a path forward to help repair the movement’s harmful effects, overcome shame, and reconstruct healthier faith and sexuality.
So if you are trying to recover from purity culture's harmful effects (aren't we all at some level), make sure to give the episode a listen. You won't regret it!
You can find Dr. Camden at the following:
Instagram: @drcamden
Facebook: Dr Camden Morgante
Website: drcamden.com

The Gift of the Unexpected - Jillian Benfield Apr 11, 2023

Jillian Benfield, author, mom of three, former TV news anchor, and fierce advocate for access and inclusion of all types, is our guest this week. When she and her husband Andy were just 27 years old, they unexpectedly found out their son would be born with Down syndrome. Originally, devastated, they later, through months and years of learning and unlearning, realized their grief was largely tied to their ignorance and unknowing ableism.
It is not easy raising a child with a disability in an inaccessible world. It has been the most difficult and also the most beautiful experience of Jillian's life. It’s a life she wouldn’t trade. The unexpected gave her, heartache, yes. The unexpected also gave her a son. The unexpected gave her back to herself.

This, and more, are what we unpack in this week's episode with Jillian. We don't tie things up with a tidy bow. We lean into the real life struggle of what happens to our faith when our formulas fall apart, when we are on our knees on the bathroom floor confused and angry and grieving. When the unexpected comes into our lives and we are left wondering how we are going to make it through.
Give the episode a listen. We won't guarantee you any answers, but our conversation will offer you so much hope for your own unexpected gifts.

You can find Jillian at the following:
Instagram: @jillianbenfieldblog
Facebook: Jillian Benfield
Website: jillianbenfield.com
Book: The Gift of the Unexpected

What About Doubt? - Kat Wordsworth Apr 04, 2023

Kat Wordsworth, author, mom of two, avid swimmer, and experienced doubter, is our guest this week. Although she is constantly living with doubt and unpacking both the harm and the healing it has brought to her life, she is taking slow steps on her own path of faith.

Our conversation with Kat, one of most gentle souls we've had the privilege of interviewing, was raw, vulnerable and not wrapped up in a nice neat bow. Her vulnerability and openness about her own continuing and difficult, yet sacred journey with doubt will help you to feel seen, heard, and confident as you navigate your own and especially as you help your own children with theirs.
We work through important topics like how God responds to our doubts and how can we treat ourselves when we are confused and feel very alone. We also get a sneak peek into her new book, Let's Talk About Doubt, and when you are finished listening, you will want to add it to that tall pile of books on your nightstand, the ones that are a must-read!
You can find Kat Wordsworth at the following:

Instagram: @about_doubt

Parenting Deconstructed - Jason Elam Mar 28, 2023

Jason Elam, grateful husband, author, proud dad of four amazing kids, host of the Messy Spirituality Podcast, and former church pastor, is our guest this week. Although he is deconstructing from toxic religion, he is still enamored by Jesus.
Our time with Jason was refreshing and empowering, especially in the area of deconstructing and parenting. Speaking from his very own mistakes and frustration with his own early parenting based in rigid evangelicalism, he walks us through the hard part of forgiving ourselves and repairing what's been broken in our relationships with our kids, bringing the light of hope to what can feel like a confusing or dark space.
In our time with Jason, we felt like we "went to church" as he is so wise and passionate and able to communicate, but also that it was unlike any church experience we'd had before because it was also filled with humility, grace and wide open space.
We laughed and listened, spoke and sighed, but mostly we unpacked the nitty gritty of this tricky and nuanced space of parenting and deconstructing.
It's so so so good. Do not miss out!
You can find Jason at the following:

Instagram: @beingjasonelam

Facebook: Jason Elam

Twitter: @beingjasonelam
Website: messyspirituality.org

Is God a Safe Grown-Up? - Meredith Miller Mar 21, 2023

Meredith Miller, mom, children's pastor and soon-to-be author of a legit book coming out in August titled Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From, is with us this week.
Meredith has over 20 years experience in children’s ministry and curriculum. In 2019 she and her husband Curtis started a small church on Zoom that wants to live the one-anothers, neighbor well, and do justice. And eat.

For the 5 years prior she was Curriculum Director for the children’s ministry at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, Illinois, where she created the framework for lessons that responds to the latest research on kids and faith formation.
Meredith holds a Master of Divinity from Fuller Seminary, as well as a B.A. in Religious Studies and Spanish Language & Literature from Westmont College.
We know that all sounds super churchy and slightly religious, but rest-assured, Meredith is a breath of fresh air when it comes to how to engage with our kids and their faith journeys. Her powerful message on this episode of our kids' belovedness as an image-bearer and how we subsequently approach our parenting is so healing. She also taps into the ways we need to heal as adults and parents from the fear and shame and guilt that has been poured on us from toxic power structures and fundamentalist religious systems. The biggest question that kids are actually wrestling with deep-down inside and we tackle on this episode is this one, "Is God a Safe Grownup?" Why does that question matter and what can we do about it?
If you are holding onto your faith (and perhaps God or Jesus) with all your might, but don't really know what to do next with your kiddos, this podcast episode is really for you.
You can find Meredith at the following:

Instagram: @meredithannemiller
Website: meredithannemiller.com

Stay Out of the Way - Sarah Bessey Mar 14, 2023

Sarah Bessey, mom, best-selling author of dozens of words and books, podcast host herself and co-creator of the Evolving Summit is with us this week.
Sarah was born and raised in the prairies and foothills of western Canada. Now living in Calgary, Alberta, Canada (on the traditional territories of the people of the Treaty 7 region in southern Alberta and the Métis Nation of Alberta, Region 3), Sarah and her husband of twenty-one years are raising their four kids. She’s a pseudo-hermit bookworm, an enthusiastic knitter, tea-drinker, hockey fan, total hugger, endlessly fascinated with Jesus, and an embarrassing fan-girl for the tv programs Doctor Who and Schitt’s Creek.
On this episode, Sarah gently shares with us her passion for the inclusive, generous, large heart of God and how parenting has been one of her most sacred altars on her life's journey. As we sat listening to Sarah, there were so many times that we said or thought , "that's really powerful," especially when she shared what we do to "introduce God" to our kids, and mostly it's just "stay out of the way," which we dive much deeper into on the episode.
We know that we don't have to tell you to listen to this one. We're pretty sure it's already on your to-do list for Tuesday. How could it not be?
You can find Sarah at the following:

Instagram: @sarahbessey
Facebook: Sarah Bessey
Website: sarahbessey.com
Evolving Faith: evolvingfaith.com

I am Enough - Jonathan Puddle Mar 07, 2023

Jonathan Puddle, dad of four, children's pastor and author, is with us this week.
Jonathan was born in New Zealand and now resides in Guelph, Ontario with his wife Maija and their three kids. He love books, music, movies, dark beer, good food, and long walks on the beach.
Jonathan feels passionately about living freely and loving powerfully. He believes that LOVE is a burning thing. It'll change your life forever. But as a word, it's also kind of meaningless. We love chocolate, we love puppies, we love God. God is love. God loves us. But God's love for us isn't just a passive, warm feeling, like my love of porters and ales. God's love is active, intentional and costly, it accomplishes things and it transforms lives.
FUN FACT: Jonathan is also a trance and progressive house DJ named "J Puddy" in case you're into that.
On this episode, Jonathan takes us on a journey toward love, hope and freedom. Having received so much healing from the toxic faith he grew up with, he walks beside us to the place where we can believe that we are enough to be loved. As we were listening to Jonathan, it gave us great hope that there is a very full and beautiful life on the other side of deconstructing, in the place where we are rebuilding our faith (if we choose to) brick by brick. If you find yourself angry, lonely and still weighted down by the shackles of a destructive faith and how that might be impacting your children, this episode will have you walking lighter and feeling much less alone. Listen in. You won't regret it.
You can find Jonathan at the following:
Instagram: @jonathanpuddle
Website: jonathanpuddle.com

Love is Not - Jamie Edelbrock Feb 28, 2023

Jamie Edelbrock, mom of three tween and teenage daughters, children's author, mental health advocate and fellow deconstructing mama kicks off Season Three with us.
Jamie was born and raised in Salem, Oregon. She's married to her high school sweetheart and has been all of the following at some point: homeschool mom, preschool director, family ministry director, author, and advocate for children's mental health.
FUN FACT: She is also an ex-pat and travel and live around the world in a far-off land (you can hear more about that on the podcast).
On this episode, Jamie tackles some really tough issues of deconstructing while raising her girls, especially why she would not want them ever to believe in a God that sounds more like a narcissist than anything else (the one she was raised with). Lots of red flags that we chat through and come out the other side.
It's a conversation that is filled with the shaking of heads, lots of laughs and much-needed hope for why deconstructing toxic theology is life-changing for us and for our kids in all the best ways.
You can find Jamie at the following:
Instagram: @tangledupbook
Website: jamieedelbrock.com

Compassionate Curiosity - Shelly Robinson Dec 06, 2022

"Motherhood is the hardest and holiest work because my kids reflect back to me what I haven't yet resolved within myself." (Shelly Robinson)
Shelly Robinson, mom of two, founder of Raising Yourself, certified family wellness coach, author of the Rebirth Journal, and creator behind the Connected Collection, a powerful bundle of transformational parenting tools, is our podcast guest this week and will round out Season 2.

She's also a lover of tacos, coffee enthusiast, Enneagram 2, ENFJ, and a neuro-spicy (hello ADHD diagnosis at 43 years old), and homeschooling mama. Her top three values are authenticity, humor, and integrity.
Shelly has taken my lived and professional experience as a coach and mother and made it her mission to educate and equip parents with the knowledge, tools, and support they deserve to reparent themselves, break cycles, and better understand the relationship between their childhoods and the way they parent.
On this episode, Shelly walks us through the very helpful and necessary idea of having to reparent ourselves as we deconstruct systems that have kept our inner child hidden, voiceless, and often wounded. All the big picture, yet practical tips Shelly has for us on this episode will not only change the way you parent, but the way you treat yourself. This is really big and a whole new way seeing the world and especially the relationships that matter the most to you. You will want to take notes and follow everything Shelly does and get your hands on the resources she has for you.
You can find Shelly at the following:
Instagram: @raising_yourself
Facebook: Shelly Robinson - Raising Yourself
Website: shellyrobinson.com
Shelly has some incredible products for you. Check them out here:
The Connected Kid Collection (launching December 12th)
Get the support you deserve with the Connected Collection, a powerful bundle of parenting tools that will give you exactly what you need to cultivate a deeper relationship with yourself and with your child.

What’s Included:

50 (physical) Connected Kid conversation cards;
Dozens of online activities to supplement the cards; and
100 page workbook called Reparenting the Younger You

Rebirth Journal (Available Now)

Grow a new way of parenting, cultivate more self-compassion, and relate to yourself and your child in a way that honors both your wholeness and worthiness.

Original Blessing - Danielle Shroyer Nov 29, 2022

The funny, yet very insightful Danielle Shroyer, is our guest this week. Danielle Shroyer is an author, speaker, spiritual director, and former pastor. A founding member in the emerging church movement, Danielle served as the pastor of one of the nation’s first independent emerging communities of faith for nearly a decade. Her primary goal as a pastor was to help people going through a season of spiritual deconstruction find healthy, sustainable, and meaningful ways to reconstruct their faith.

Danielle has a particular heart for the spiritual-but-not-religious, and has long advocated for fresh approaches to spiritual community. Over the years, she has offered guidance to struggling and transitioning congregations searching for new ways to embody their purpose. You can find her reflections on meditation and other grounding spiritual practices at www.beasoulninja.com.

A resident of Dallas, Texas, Danielle and her husband have two children. She’s a self-declared nerd who reads voraciously and enjoys in-depth conversations about stuff some people may find boring. What she loves most in the whole world is watching someone do what makes their soul come alive. When she’s not working, you can often find her at the yoga studio or in her taekwondo dojang.
On this episode, Danielle unpacks the revolutionary and healing idea of original blessing and how it informs and transforms the way we interact with ourselves, our children and the world around us. This is a MUST-LISTEN!
You can find Danielle at the following:
Twitter: @dgshroyer
Instagram: @danielle.shroyer
Website: www.danielleshroyer.com

Pastoring, Potatoes and Parenthood- Ben Cremer Nov 22, 2022

The fabulous Ben Cremer is our guest this week. Ben is all these things: Wesleyan. Writer. Chronic student. Constant investigator. Idahoan (Lizz and Esther had never met anyone before from Idaho). He is very well-known for the black boxes on social media filled with mic drop after mic drop of wisdom and cut-to-the-chase snippets that speak to where we find ourselves in modern Christianity in America.
What happens when you talk about pastoring, potatoes (he is from Idaho, people) and parenthood in the same Zoom space? You get an amazing podcast episode! Ben is a brandy-new dad who has big plans to raise his son and any future children without all the destructive "spirituality" that he was raised with. His story is a nail biter and while he was speaking, Esther and Lizz had shocked looks on their faces because they could hardly believe what they were hearing. It's a story that shows how harmful toxic religion can be, but also a story that gives hope that lives can be transformed and healed. A story that says, "it all stops here." A story that is much like many of our own.
Ben has a weekly newsletter that dives deep into how religion and politics intersect. He already has over 5000 subscribers (two of which are us) in a very short time because it is chock full of information, wisdom and also hope. You can sign up for it right HERE.
You can find Ben at the following:
Instagram: @brcremer

Facebook: Benjamin Cremer
Twitter: @brcremer
Blog: Constant Investigations

Spiritual Misfits - Joy Vetterlein Nov 15, 2022

The very wonderful Joy Vetterlein is our guest this week. Joy is a lifelong church girl and former-pastor-turned-misfit-rebel who got tired of being hurt and seeing other people get hurt by evangelical Christianity. She's here to help you find your own path to spirituality, especially if you feel like a "spiritual misfit" just like her.
Joy is a fellow deconstructing mama who spent much of her journey being the poster child for Christianity while at the same time being miserable. When she lost her pastoral job (along with her calling and identity), she also lost her willingness to pretend anymore. She reminds us that although she was crushed, she was also freed.
If you haven't heard about Joy yet on this ever-evolving faith journey, you are going to want to listen to this episode. She unpacks so many things about faith and motherhood that will leave you wanting more and more. We know we do and that's why we follow her on all her social media platforms and also receive her Sunday Soul Care emails every week, that feed our own Deconstructing Mama souls. You will want to as well!
You can find Joy at the following:
Website: www.joyvetterlein.com
Instagram: @joyvetterlein
Facebook: Joy Vetterlein Creative

This Little Light of Mine - Torri Williams Nov 08, 2022

“To be human in an aching world is to know our dignity and become people who safeguard the dignity of everything around us.”
-Cole Arthur Riley-

This Week on the Podcast:
Torri Williams, our guest this week, is an activist and brilliant soul. Growing up in a small town which was prominently white and highly evangelical as a a black charismatic fundamentalist, she found herself constantly curious about her faith and how it played out, not only for herself as a black woman, but for others who were marginalized by the church and by society.

Torri deeply believes in the power of dignity, something she views as given to every human being, regardless of race, belief system, sexual orientation, age, social status, gender and so much more.
She is a fellow deconstructing mama, married to a "white rapper," and has a blended family that includes one adult child, three teenagers, and twin six-year olds. This makes for beautiful mayhem and allows her to speak into all of us as she navigates all the complexities of motherhood, including the intersection of her evolving faith, her passion for the marginalized (especially women of color) and parenting in a multi-racial family.
In this episode, we explore why "curiosity didn't kill the cat" and how offering dignity can change our lives and the lives of our children. Dignity is the match that ignites our flames so that our lights can shine brightly for ourselves and others to be guided by and enjoy. It's one of the more powerful conversations we've had as Torri challenges our notions of who is allowed to sit "at the table" and perhaps why some are not. Lizz and Esther were much more quiet this time around because they were much more interested in listening than talking, and that tells you enough right there.
One of Torri's favorite authors, black female liturgist, Cole Arthur Riley, is the author of the above quote, a young black woman and liturgist who has challenged and changed her. Listen to the episode to find out why...
You can find Torri at the following:
Instagram: @torri1999

Mama God - Daneen Akers Nov 01, 2022

"As long as a masculine god remains at the top of the pyramid, nothing else we do matters." Dr. Rev. Will Gaffney
Daneen Akers is the author of Holy Troublemakers and Unconventional Saints, an illustrated children's book about people of diverse faiths working for more love and justice in their corners of the world, even when that means rocking the religious boat.

Daneen believes deeply in the power of stories. Her past projects have explored faith, identity, and belonging. Daneen loves the gloaming, the time of day when it’s starting to grow dark and there’s magic in the air. She’s also very fond of books, walks in the woods, songs around a campfire, snuggles with her daughters, and large pots of hot beverages enjoyed with friends. She lives near Asheville, North Carolina, with her family. Most mornings she’s woken up by an enthusiastic Carolina wren outside her window. She is the mother of two children, and they have been primary motivators for her writing about a faith that works for the common good.

In this episode, we explore the idea of God in the feminine, as our Mother and discuss why it's important to introduce that concept to children, especially since we espouse that God is either above gender, or genderless. It's a fascinating discussion and will open up your mind, and especially your heart to the "many-breasted One." We also find out about her latest endeavor, a wonderful children's book soon to be released, Dear Mama God.
Daneen is passionate and knowledgeable and at the same time, has a tenderness that will leave you wanting more. Listen in!
You can find Daneen at the following places:
Website: holytroublemakers.com
dearmamagod.com
Twitter: @daneenakers

Instagram: @daneenakers
@holytroublebook

@dearmamagod

Internal Family Systems - Molly LaCroix Oct 25, 2022

"Why do Christians talk so much about love but often, fail to be loving?"

Molly LaCroix is the author of that quote, a speaker and licensed marriage and family therapist (LMFT). She specializes in treating the impact of early adverse experiences and trauma, using the Internal Family Systems (IFS) Model she finds as a comprehensive, evidence-based approach to healing, and a model deeply congruent with Christian spirituality.

Molly and her husband live in Central Oregon, an outdoor paradise offering, among many things, Molly’s two favorite activities: hiking and downhill skiing. In 2018, Molly became “Minnie” to her first grandchild, a life-altering event. She loves telling people that every cliché you’ve ever heard about being a grandparent is true. Minnie and Papa visit their children and grandchildren in Southern California as often as possible.
In this episode, we take a very deep dive into the places of trauma and paths toward healing, which require us to listen to all of the parts within us that battle with, protect and need to be fully integrated with each other. We found ourselves just wanting to know more and more.
Molly is kind, gentle and brilliant, the perfect combination if you are in search of true, long-lasting self-discovery and healing. Listen in!
You can find Molly at the following places:
Website: www.mollylacroix.com
Facebook: Molly Lacroix, LMFT

Instagram: @mollylacroixlfmt
You can purchase her book here:
Restoring Relationship: Transforming Fear into Love Through Connection
OTHER MENTIONS:
Pete Enns - Bible for Normal People
Emily P. Freeman
Richard C. Schwartz, Ph.D.
If My Brain Had a Morning Meeting with Tiffany Jenkins

Who Do I Trust? - Angela J. Herrington Oct 18, 2022

"Deconstruction is an opportunity to deepen your faith, not just a rejection of what you believed in the past."

The author of those beautiful words, Angela J. Herrington, a fellow deconstructing mama of FIVE and a faith deconstruction coach, walks us through how unhealed trauma informs our ability to trust ourselves. We walk through how difficult and necessary it is to be on this journey to heal ourselves and the beauty that's on the other side of that healing. Listen in as we take the water slide that leads to life (and not the slippery slope that we are often warned of).
Angela's heart comes alive when she holds space for others on their deconstruction journey. If you're longing to ask questions about faith, God and what you believe, WITHOUT BEING JUDGED, Angela is the person for you. She is feisty and thorough and if you want to get a "free coaching session along with us, this episode is exactly what you need to spend your time doing! We sighed and said "YES" more times than usual, which says a lot for us. Talk about peeling back some layers that we didn't know were there. WOW! Hope you listen in!!
You can find Angela at the following places:
Website: www.angelajherriington.com
Facebook:
Angela J Herrington
The Faith Deconstruction Cafe

Instagram: @angelajherrington

Pinterest: @angelajherrington
Twitter: @angherrington
Linked In: Angela J Herrington
YouTube: Angela J Herrington

Faith Jenga - Cassie Gottula Shaw Oct 11, 2022

In this episode, Cassie Gottula Shaw, a fellow deconstructing mama and brilliant faith researcher, walks us through something she's deemed "faith Jenga." Listen in as we chat through the blocks of our faith, the carefully constructed faith towers we build, what we do with the blocks we want to pull out and throw away, and what we can work with the ones we want to keep going forward as we rebuild our new faith structure. She says this: "I finally took out that last block in my “faith Jenga” tower and it all came crashing down. I expected it to hit the ground, but it didn’t." Listen to find out what happened instead.
Cassie is passionate about faith, motherhood, mental health and especially self-discovery and self-love. She's equal parts fiery (she's got one burning in her soul) and grace (she will make you feel safe and very much loved). It's a shorter interview this time around, but chock full of so many "mic drop moments" that you will be rewinding and taking notes. You definitely don't want to miss out!
You can find Cassie at the following places:
Website: www.cassiegs.com
Facebook: Girl I've Got You and Lovely Rites

Instagram: @girlivegotyou and @lovelyrites

What is Seeping In? - Pete Enns Oct 04, 2022

This week on the podcast, we dive deeper with Pete Enns as we continue to navigate the tricky tightrope of parenting while deconstructing toxic religious systems and reconstructing our faith with love and freedom. One of the big questions we ask each other is this: WHAT IS SEEPING IN?
You definitely don't want to miss out on the sarcastic and very funny banter between Pete and Lizz and Esther's somewhat futile attempts to bring the two of them back in line (insert funny emoji here).
SHOW NOTES:
Pete Enns, wife to one, dad to Lizz and her two siblings, and completely doting grandpa, tells stories about the messy Bible and what it means to read it with both eyes open to its problems and challenges, and to its promises and possibilities.
He is author of several books, and the cohost for "the only God-ordained podcast on the internet," The Bible for Normal People and in his spare time, a Biblical Studies professor at Eastern University. According to Wikipedia (WOW! He has arrived!), Peter Eric Enns is an American Biblical scholar and theologian. He has written widely on hermeneutics, Christianity and science, historicity of the Bible, and Old Testament interpretation.
You can find Pete at the following places (often with his cat Marmalade):
Website: www.peteenns.com
Podcast: The Bible for Normal People

Facebook: Pete Enns

Instagram: @peteenns
Twitter: @peteenns
Amazon: Peter-Enns

#ad

Better Than Purity - Brittany Meng Sep 27, 2022

"We need to embrace better questions when we try to help relationships thrive, rejecting shame and judgment, and instead focusing on love, respect, and boundaries that encompass the entire expression of what it means to be human and healthy. "

In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Brittany Meng of the Bam Blog, dives deep with us into the toxic nature of purity culture.

SHOW NOTES:
Brittany is a mom of five, military wife, fellow sojourner in "curious faith" land, crafter and Etsy shop owner, brilliant and brave author of Unexpected and the hostess extraordinaire of the Motherhood Metamorphosis podcast. She has a heart for special needs, self-care, spiritual growth and raising kids without losing your mind!
Brittany's gentle, but very firm spirit brings both grace and truth to a subject that is tricky at best and horrific at worst. You don't want to miss the out on hearing why she believes there is something so much better than the question, "Are you pure?"
Put on your life preserver and jump right on in!!
Website: The Bam Blog
Podcast: Motherhood Metamorphosis

Facebook: Brittany Meng the Bam Blog

Etsy: GiftsByBrittanyGrace

SPECIAL MENTIONS:

Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert

Begin with the End in Mind - Brian McLaren Sep 20, 2022

"Faith before doubt is about correct beliefs. Faith after doubt is about revolutionary love. Love is our ultimate goal." (Faith After Doubt)
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Brian McLaren, author of that quote,
is a stalwart in the arena of faith and deconstructing. Brian wisely and warmly guides us gently through the four stages of childhood/faith and how to work through them in ourselves and in our own parenting.

Plus, you'll find out his secret passion (hint: has something to do with sea wildlife...).
Plus plus, find out what's more important than being "cool."

You don't want to miss it!

SHOW NOTES:
Brian McLaren, husband to one, father to four, doting grandpa to five, former pastor to many, author of a boatload of books, and wise, WARM, spiritual mentor to millions tells story after story about his evolving faith journey and walks us carefully through to the end goal of faith expressing itself in transformational love, for both us and our kids.
Brian D. McLaren is an author of several books, speaker, activist, and public theologian. A former college English teacher and pastor, he is a passionate advocate for “a new kind of Christianity” – just, generous, and working with people of all faiths for the common good. He is a core faculty member of The Living School and podcaster with Learning How to See, which are part of the Center for Action and Contemplation.
Website: www.brianmclaren.net
Facebook: Brian D. McLaren

Instagram: @brian_mclaren
Twitter: @brianmclaren

OTHER MENTIONS:
Walter Brueggemann

#ad

Good (Hard) Grief - Lizz & Esther Sep 13, 2022

Who knew that when we asked our first question about the faith that was either handed down to us or we grabbed onto with all our might when someone shared the "good news," there would be so much loss associated with it.
We were just asking a question, right?
We were just pulling back the curtain to see what was going on behind there, right?
But here we are, and one question turned into another and another and another, and we perhaps find ourselves with more questions than answers and the curtain has not only been pulled back, it's laying on the floor torn into shreds and what was going on behind there is exposed every which way.
And the loss, the incredible loss that's hopped along with the questions and the torn curtain, is something that perhaps has surprised us (or maybe not so much). But it's there none-the-less.
We are left with the loss of community, friendship, even family relationships, respect, certainty, all the things that held us for so long.
And the searing grief that comes with losing all of these things, it feels like, in one fell swoop, is something we find ourselves surprised by, pummeled by or just hovering under the surface ready to make it's way out at the most inopportune times or ways (like in the shower or into our pillow or an outburst at a family reunion or on social media).
We, your favorite podcast hostesses in the whole wide world, Lizz and Esther, kick Season Two off with a bang diving deep into their own losses (that might sound eerily similar to yours) and the painful, messy, necessary process of grief that is going right along with it.
SHOW NOTES:
Lizz Enns Petters, daughter of Bible scholar, Pete Enns, is on a mission to bring hope into the most awful of places, where mental health suffers at the hands of a rigid faith systems.
Website: www.elizabethpetters.com
Facebook: Lizz Enns Petters, The Deconstructed Mama
Instagram: @lizzennspetters
Twitter: @eepetters
Esther Joy Goetz, wife to one and mother to four grown kids and all their people, has a fierce passion to restore hope for the sacred space where our hearts and our homes meet. This includes faith, marriage and motherhood.
Website: www.estherjoygoetz.com
Faith:
Facebook: Esther, the Dolly Mama
Instagram: Estherthedollymama
Motherhood:
Facebook: Moms of Bigs
Instagram: Moms of Bigs
SPECIAL MENTIONS:

Glennon Doyle
Pete Enns
Emily P. Freeman

Your Next Step - Erica Garthwaite (*BONUS SUMMER EPISODE*) Aug 02, 2022

"I can't see a way through," said the boy.
"Can you see your next step," said the horse.
"Yes," said the boy.
"Just take that," said the horse.
(Charlie Mackesy)

In this BONUS SUMMER episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Erica Garthwaite, friend of Lizz and Esther (and part of their book club) brings her mic-drop wisdom to the table when it comes to navigating difficult topics with your kids as you deconstruct and they have questions.

SHOW NOTES:

Erica is the "Solomon" of our day. Wisdom emanates from every word that she shares and you will wish you could have coffee and pick her brain about all your parenting issues. She is a wife to a stay-at-home husband, a high-level marketing genius and a mom to two young children (one who asks a ton of hard questions).

This podcast episode is chock full of messages that will make you sigh with relief and give you lots of new ways of interacting with your kids through this whole rethinking and rebuilding your faith journey. We are so grateful to share this episode during the time in the summer when everyone is still in the "heat of it," but gearing back up for the start of the school year (except you Aussie folks...what's up with you?). Enjoy this BONUS and remember, it's not too long until Season 2 begins.

SPECIAL MENTIONS:

Charlie Mackesy

Glennon Doyle
Messiah University

Connecting to Your True Self - Liz Milani May 24, 2022

"Life is always moving. You have permission to move with it, to leave behind the things that do not serve you, and become someone new, someone more like you, more like your true self."

In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Liz Milani, author of that quote, author of the PracticeCo app (daily devotionals that are holistic, inclusive and cliche-free) shares her heart with us and our need to discover and connect with our true selves.

SHOW NOTES:
Liz is one-of-a-kind. Her tender, yet very passionate heart, along with her ability to laugh, while at the same time, communicate sacred truths is just what you need to experience. She is a wife to one and a mom to three, her littlest having a special love relationship with cursing (find out more about that on our episode). Liz has done the hard work of leaving behind a toxic theology and the abandonment of herself because of it and has the mission to help others along their own paths toward freedom and wholeness.
This podcast episode is chock full of messages that will make your heart sing, come alive and give you so much hope as you navigate the journey of deconstructing, parenting in the middle of it, but also how you, as a human, have permission to find out who you are, what you love and connect in ways that bring authenticity and vulnerability to the table of life.
Liz has a way of asking questions that make you dive deep and feel hopeful. Buckle up. It's an incredible way to round out our Season One.
Instagram: @thepracticeco

Facebook: The Practice Co

Website: www.thepracticeco.com

SPECIAL MENTIONS:

David Levithan

The Relief Grief Sandwich - Cindy Wang Brandt May 17, 2022

"Parenting may be less about raising our children and more about raising ourselves. It compels us to break our own cycles of shame and pain as we bring healing to our own childhood."

In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Cindy Wang Brandt, author of that quote, cohost on the Parenting Forward podcast and author of Parenting Forward, really digs deep into the subject of religious trauma and how that plays out in parenting. How can we heal ourselves, make good boundaries with our families of origin and give ourselves grace and space in the process?

SHOW NOTES:
Cindy is the guru when it comes to deconstructing and parenting. She is a wife to one and a mom to two. She has done the hard work of helping parents unpack and heal from their own religious trauma so they can raise children with healthy spirituality.
This podcast episode is packed full of so many nuggets of wisdom, but Cindy breaks it all down super practically. So if you are starting this journey or are in the middle or even far along, this podcast episode has something special just for you.
Facebook: Parenting Forward
Raising Children Unfundamentalist Group

Instagram: @parentingforward

Twitter: @cindywangbrandt
Website: www.cindywangbrandt.com
Parenting Forward Conference

SPECIAL MENTIONS:

Pete Enns

Love Matters More - Jared Byas May 10, 2022

"You can't love and control at the same time."
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Jared Byas, author of that quote, cohost on the Bible for Normal People podcast and author of Love Matters More, not only tells us what brought him to the place of deconstructing and reconstructing his faith, but speaks about the impact it has had on his parenting. There are so mic drops moments where Jared unpacks what it really means to love well and why we cannot love and control people (and especially our kids) at the same time and how our view of God plays into perhaps why we may have fallen into this trap in the first place.
SHOW NOTES:
Jared is a husband to Sarah and a father of four kids. He's a serial question-asker and ideas explorer. His favorite phrases are “Ok. But why?” and “Is there another way?”

His passion is to explore new ways of being Christian and help people translate all of life’s big questions into a life full of meaning and connection.

Some of the topics he finds himself drifting to most are:

What does it mean to live life well?
How might we open new ways of living for people?
How might Christianity help us create meaning in our lives today?
What is the Bible and what do we do with it?

This podcast will perhaps give some of the answers to those questions and then some. It's a must-listen if you find yourself in a place where you are trying to love well in the middle of deconstructing and reconstructing your faith.
Facebook: Jared Byas

Instagram: @jaredbyas

Website: www.jaredbyas.com

SPECIAL MENTIONS:

Bible For Normal People

God Can't by Thomas Oord
Soren Kierkegaard

Jean-Paul Sartre

Trusting Myself - Sarah Meassick May 03, 2022

"I sink beneath the swirling surf of words, fears, expectations, conditioning, and advice—and feel for the Knowing." Glennon Doyle)

In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Sarah Meassick, daughter of podcast host, Esther Joy Goetz, takes us deep into her childhood journey of fear, anxiety and the desire to be the "good girl" and how this manifested in full-blown OCD at a very young age, reinforced and perpetuated by the rigid faith system she grew up with (which many of us can relate to).

Sarah and Esther walk through their mutual story of deconstruction, redemption and the freedom they have found in allowing themselves and each other the safety to be their authentic selves. Sarah is tender and brilliant, a combination that will have you sobbing into your tissues and cheering at the same time.

SHOW NOTES:
Sarah is a wife to one and a mom to one and a teacher to lots of second graders. She is an avid gardener (somewhat crunchy), a yoga-lover, outdoor enthusiast and her heart comes alive as she creates safe spaces for her and all her people to learn and grow and come into their own personal fullness.
You will want to be her best friend (or have her as your second grade teacher) by the end of the episode (or even before that).
Find out how in the world it came to be that one of her best friends and her mom came to produce this Deconstructing Mamas podcast. It's quite the origin story and will have you saying, "Whaaa?"
Facebook: Sarah Meassick
Instagram: @sarahemeassick
@half.acre_homestead
Blog: Sarah, Plain and Tall

SPECIAL MENTIONS:
Glennon Doyle
Pete Enns
Bible For Normal People

You're Not Alone - Jordan Harrell Apr 26, 2022

"When I started writing about deconstruction, I shared because I needed to know there were others out there like me. Now I share because I sincerely believe what I'm learning is good news."
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Jordan Harrell, author of that quote, brings her full self to this raw and healing conversation surrounding issues of rejection and exclusion in the small (c) church today. She unpacks her own story down this road to freedom and reminds us all that we are not alone no matter how much it feels that way. Phew! Listen in and allow room for your soul to breathe.
SHOW NOTES:
Jordan is known for her gracious boldness in the deconstructing space around the internet. She inspires each of us to "call out" the harm and work toward healing. She invites anyone wondering, searching, or questioning to jump on board and travel with her down the "slippery slope" where freedom lies at the end.
She is a fellow deconstructing mama of three elementary-aged kids and a wife to a Texas high school football coach, which means life is filled with field houses, bleachers and game days. When she isn't creating content (including fun merch - CLICK HERE) for coaches' wives and regular sports-loving people, she is an avid lover of exploring the mysteries of God and sharing her findings with the rest of us. It's good good good stuff. You don't want to miss this conversation OR her presence on social media.
Facebook: Jordan Harrell, Writer
Instagram: @Jordan Harrell, Writer

SPECIAL MENTIONS:
Friday Night Wives
Brian Zahnd, Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God
Rachel Held Evans
Deconstructing Resources (put together by Jordan)

Out of Oppression - NakedPastor (David Hayward) Apr 19, 2022

"If we had total support, we would change more easily. It's the fear of rejection that prevents our transformation."
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, David Hayward, author of that quote, and known as NakedPastor around the internet, allows us to pepper him with your (and our) questions in this "Q&A" style format on this episode. Here are some of our favorites:

1. Why "naked," why "pastor," and why those two words together?
2. What was the turning point in your spiritual journey that gave you new lenses to see clearly how to truly love "without the fine print"?
3. What do you think heaven will be like? Do you still believe in one?
4. What can you say to our listeners who are parents, and already feel like they've made so many mistakes and wonder if it’s too late with their own kids?
SHOW NOTES:
David is "everyone's pastor," especially those who have been oppressed by harmful and toxic religious systems. He has a personal mission to help others on their journey to freedom, having been on that quest for many years and finding so much of it now himself. Not only is he the parent of three grown children, who he calls his best friends, he has a wife who he completely adores. He is an artist and writer extraordinaire, creating works that speak to the soul that longs for freedom.
He believes that questions are the answer to authentic growth. It’s why he uses words and images to challenge the status quo, deconstruct dogma, and offer hope for those who suffer under it. During this interview, we felt like we had a long sigh for our deconstructing souls as David is one of the kindest and wisest people you'll ever listen to.

Website: NakedPastor

Facebook: NakedPastor
Instagram: @NakedPastor
Pinterest: NakedPastor

Etsy: NakedPastor

Twitter: @NakedPastor

SPECIAL MENTIONS:
Sophia Steadfast Print (little girl with rhino)
Timber Series

Till Doubt Do Us Part
Flip It Like This (latest book)

You Do Not Have to Be Good - Jenny Shannon Apr 12, 2022

"If you, too, find yourself eating your words when a crisis hits: 1. You're not alone and, 2. Being wrong can suck, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't also be delicious."
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Jenny Shannon, author of that quote, tackles the harmful and toxic ideology of "being a good girl" and how that one phrase by renowned poet, Mary Oliver, "You do not have to be good" brought great healing to her broken heart and freed her up to figure out what had been haunting her all her life and what could change. Jenny's gentle wisdom, along with her fantastic ability to make your heart have a good, knowing chuckle, will have you hungry for more. We know we do.

SHOW NOTES:
Jenny is a fellow deconstructing mama of two young girls, English teacher and music enthusiast with a deep-seated penchant for Thai food, fart jokes and dirty martinis. Several years ago, she believed she had finally figured out her life and her role in it. She's been eating her words ever since.
And now we want to as well.

Websites: Eat My Words
The She Interviews

Facebook: Jenny Vanderberg Shannon
The She Interviews

Instagram: Jenny Vanderberg Shannon
The She Interviews

OTHER MENTIONS:
Mary Oliver
NakedPastor
Braiding Sweet Grass by Robin Wall Kimmerer

Wild Geese
You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
For a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal
of your body love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours,
and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the
clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.

Meanwhile the wild geese,
high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.

Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese,
harsh and exciting
— over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

Mary Oliver

Coming In - Shelby and Kahrin Spear Apr 05, 2022

"When love speaks and both sides listen, hearts connect and healing begins."
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Shelby, author of that quote, and her daughter, Kahrin, share their heart-breaking and hope-filled "coming in" story about the journey to healing for both of them after Kahrin discovers that she likes girls.

Shelby and Kahrin's fierce desire to finding healing and love after years of hopelessness and destruction from rigid faith systems and toxic beliefs will leave you dumbfounded, grabbing for tissues and a lot more healed yourself. If you know someone, love someone or are someone who lands outside the "heteronormative box" or you are wondering how and where to land on this emotionally-charged topic, this episode is for you. Give a listen. We promise that you won't regret it.
SHOW NOTES:
Shelby Spear, mom of three grown kids, wife to one very good guy (as she likes to call him) and author of the book, How are You Feeling Mama (You Don't Need to Say "I'm Fine"), and her daughter, artist and musician, Kahrin Spear, are family not because they have to be, but because they want to be.
Shelby's words help all moms to feel safe pulling back the veil on all the broken and challenging parts of motherhood while embracing the laughter and joy of the beautiful moments. She is also a Certified Emotional Intelligence Coach, Certified Meditation Teacher (CMT), speaker, and love enthusiast who is passionate about helping others "change the way they look at things so the things they look at change." When you visit her website, you will feel a rush of grace in every direction.
Named after several generations of women in her family, Kahrin's voice is PURE (the meaning of her beautiful and unique name) and soothing, not only to the ear, but to the soul. She is an indie/folk singer-songwriter from Cleveland, OH. And simply put, she writes music to help people heal, herself included.
Websites: www.shelbyspear.com
www.kahrinmusicofficial.com
www.lovespeaks.life

Facebook: Shelby Spear, Author
Kahrin Music Official

Instagram: Shelby Spear
Kahrin Music Official

OTHER MENTIONS:
Glennon Doyle
Abby Wambach
Emily P. Freeman

Who Doesn't Love Cheese? And Freedom? - Stevie Swift Mar 29, 2022

"You don't HAVE to get married."
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Stevie Swift, author of that quote, shares her story of reorienting herself from a narrow and rigid place of falling in line with social constructs to the wide-open space of freedom to be herself and what it means to gift that to her son.
Stevie's "out-of-the-box" lifestyle and down-right wisdom about what it means to have permission to live freely will feel like a breath of fresh air and you may want to "be her when you grow up." We sure do. This episode has so many nuggets that you will want to hit rewind and write down on every sticky note you can find and put them on your fridge, your mirror, your car dashboard, everywhere.
You will also find out why she is so obsessed with cheese and writing 365 poems (one for every day of the year) during 2022. We've both written a few now and you are welcome to join the fun!! We hope you do! You'll find out how when you listen! Here is just a little taste:
I’m having the dreamiest party
Just me and the creamiest Havarti
You might think we’re a sad two
But I think no one asked you
So you can eat your opinion, Smarty
I’ll just keep eating this cheese
SHOW NOTES:
Stevie Swift, a single mom who intentionally chooses to be, refugee resettlement attorney and war veteran turned cheese poem writer and coloring page creator, oozes freedom from her every pore and invites us to enter into that space with her.
If you head to her website, you will find a taste of everything, from devotionals to podcasts to essays to books to FREE coloring pages, every single one of them designed specifically with freedom to be completely yourself.
Website: www.stevieswift.com, www.steviedoodles.com
Facebook: Stevie Swift, Author, Poems About Cheese

Instagram: @stevieswiftauthor

OTHER MENTIONS:
Perichoresis is a Greek term used to describe the triune relationship between each person of the Godhead. It can be defined as co-indwelling, co-inhering, and mutual interpenetration. Alister McGrath writes that it "allows the individuality of the persons to be maintained, while insisting that each person shares in the life of the other two. An image often used to express this idea is that of a 'community of being,' in which each person, while maintaining its distinctive identity, penetrates the others and is penetrated by them.

Snakes Don't Talk - Pete Enns Mar 22, 2022

“When the dust clears and in the quiet of your own heart, what kind of God do you believe in, really? And why?” (The Sin of Certainty - CHECK IT OUT HERE).
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Pete Enns, author of that quote and Lizz's dad, candidly shares his own journey of deconstruction and how his own "sin of certainty" played out in his parenting, especially the harm it caused to his children and to himself.

Pete's wisdom as a Bible nerd and scholar, along with his witty humor and down-to-earth explanations (for us normal people) helps us to see that deconstructing is not sexy or trendy, but that it is difficult and completely normal and necessary for growth in our faith and life.
Find out what happens when Pete recalls reading the story of Adam and Eve to his then six-year-old and this very wise insight by his son:

"Daddy, snakes don't talk!"
What was Pete's response?
Listen and and find out!!

SHOW NOTES:
Pete Enns, wife to one, dad to Lizz and her two siblings, and completely doting grandpa, tells stories about the messy Bible and what it means to read it with both eyes open to its problems and challenges, and to its promises and possibilities.
He is author of several books, and the cohost for "the only God-ordained podcast on the internet," The Bible for Normal People and in his spare time, a Biblical Studies professor at Eastern University. According to Wikipedia (WOW! He has arrived!), Peter Eric Enns is an American Biblical scholar and theologian. He has written widely on hermeneutics, Christianity and science, historicity of the Bible, and Old Testament interpretation.
Website: www.peteenns.com
Facebook: Pete Enns

Instagram: @peteenns
Twitter: @peteenns

OTHER MENTIONS:

#ad

Take a Smoke Break - Sarah Bragg Mar 15, 2022

“Curiosity is the opposite of certainty. Curiosity isn’t about right or wrong or should or shouldn’t. Those words are about certainty.” (page 163 of A Mother's Guide to Raising Herself - CHECK IT OUT HERE).
"Raising kids highlighted just how uncertain life was, but my faith was wholly tied to certainty. Therein lies the tension. So I decided to be curious."
In this episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Sarah Bragg, author of those two quotes and fellow deconstructing mama of two tweens, dives deep into the ways she has had to lean away from certainty and into curiosity: what's really hard about it and how can we actually do it - super simple steps!
Sarah's humor, combined with her tenderness and strength, lends itself to an incredible conversation that culminates in one of her most important mantras:
"TAKE A SMOKE BREAK!"
What the???
Listen and and find out!!

SHOW NOTES:
Sarah Bragg, wife to one and mother to two tweens, has a deep desire to help other women know they aren’t alone. She helps women survive right where they are—in their life, relationships, work and faith through conversation, connection and curiosity.
Website: www.sarahbragg.com
Facebook: Surviving Sarah
Instagram: @sarahwbragg
Twitter: @sarahwbragg

OTHER MENTIONS:
Anne Lamott
Surviving Sarah Podcast
Saddleback Church
Maya Angelou

#ad

Until It Doesn't - Esther Joy Goetz Mar 08, 2022

In our second episode on the Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Esther Joy Goetz, the second half of the dynamic hosting duo, shares her story of growing up in a developing war-torn country with her Evangelical missionary parents and how this impacted her faith journey. Listen in to hear how it all came down to this formula:

“Do all the right things, make all the right, godly choices and life goes the way it should.”

UNTIL
IT
DOESN'T
What happens then? How can we be led by love instead of pushed by fear?
SHOW NOTES:
Esther Joy Goetz, wife to one and mother to four grown kids and all their people, has a fierce passion to restore hope for the sacred space where our hearts and our homes meet. This includes faith, marriage and motherhood.

Website: www.estherjoygoetz.com
Faith:
Facebook: Esther Joy Goetz, The Dolly Mama

Instagram: estherthedollymama
Moms of Big Kids:
Facebook: Moms of Bigs
Instagram: Moms of Bigs

OTHER MENTIONS:
Bible for Normal People
Richard Rohr
Emily P. Freeman

Not Quite Enough - Lizz Enns Petters Feb 28, 2022

To launch our Deconstructing Mamas podcast, Lizz Enns Petters, one of the dynamic hosting duo, shares her story of hardship, heartbreak, and hope. Find out how "not quite good enough and not quite bad enough" landed her in some very unlikely real life spaces and why she started to go down the path to deconstruct her faith and what good words she has for you today.

SHOW NOTES:

Lizz Enns Petters, daughter of Bible scholar, Pete Enns, is on a mission to bring hope into the most awful of places, where mental health suffers at the hands of a rigid faith systems.
Website: www.elizabethpetters.com
Facebook: Lizz Enns Petters, The Deconstructed Mama
Instagram: @lizzennspetters
Twitter: @eepetters

OTHER MENTIONS:
Bible for Normal People
Richard Rohr

Our TOPPODCAST Picks

Follow Us

Stay Connected

Related Podcasts

Links

Stay Connected