Cold War Conversations

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Across the Iron Curtain in a yellow MG Midget sports car (317) Nov 11, 2023

Show notes

Andrew McNeile decided to travel through Eastern Europe in a yellow MG Midget Sports car, a car that's going to stand out no matter where you are!

He recalls his adventures travelling through East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, and Yugoslavia

He talks about the warmth and friendliness of people, challenges with petrol quality, and an accidental visit to a nudist beach.

Peter Ryan is your host today and I’m delighted to welcome Andrew McNeile to our Cold War Conversation…

The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and viaa simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to preserve Cold War history. You’ll become part of our community, get ad-free episodes, and get a sought-after CWC coaster as a thank you and you’ll bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history.

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Episode cover photo by kind permission of Oxyman https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MG_Midget_Orange_S.jpg

0:00 Introduction and overview of the episode's guest, Andrew Nielle

0:31 Andrew's journey through Eastern Europe in a yellow MG midget sports car

4:21 Reaction of Andrew's family and friends to his travel plans

7:13 Planned itinerary for the journey through Eastern Europe and Turkey

10:01 Describing the border crossing experience into the East Bloc from Germany

16:05 Reflections on the separation between East and West Germany and the construction of the Berlin Wall

24:25 Unexpected nudist beach experience in Romania

28:12 The challenges of travelling by car in Eastern Europe

32:19 Favourite country visited during the road trip: Czechoslovakia

35:57 Relief of returning to the West and impressions on Soviet rule

37:11 Closing remarks

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1983 - the year the Cold War almost turned hot (316) Nov 04, 2023

Show notes

This week is the 40th anniversary of the Able Archer NATO Exercise where it is reckoned that the Soviet Union and NATO almost started a nuclear war.

1990 an investigation by the US President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, culminating in its highly secret report “The Soviet ‘War Scare’” The detailed PFIAB report concluded that the U.S. “may have inadvertently placed our relations with the Soviet Union on a hair trigger”.

The following is an audio version of the talk I delivered to the Manchester Military History Society in October 2023.

Documents, videos, and other extra episode information here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode316

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0:00 Introduction and overview of the episode

1:14 Comparison of the 1983 crisis and the Cuban missile crisis

2:38 Detente and the state of US/Soviet relations in the 1970s & early 80s

4:24 Introduction Ronald Reagan and his policies

5:25 Introduction to Yuri Andropov and his policies

8:56 Soviet intelligence Operation Ryan's purpose and indicators

12:49 Fleetex 83 US naval exercise appears to confirm Soviet suspicions that US is planning an attack

16:33 The downing of Korean Airlines Flight 007

22:30 Incidents soon after the Korean Airlines shootdown

26:08 Soviet early warning system warns of US missile attack

30:06 The US military intervention in Grenada

34:21 Brigadier General Leonard H Perroot's role in averting a nuclear war during Able Archer 83

41:43 Double agent's contributions to Western intelligence

51:26 Controversy about how close we came to nuclear war around Able Archer

54:30 Acknowledgement of financial supporters and continuation of Cold War conversation on Facebook

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Serving in a Cold War Danish Reconnaissance Squadron (315) Oct 27, 2023

Show notes

Denmark joined NATO as a founding member in 1949. However, it originally laid down limitations to NATO membership, effectively excluding the country from full military integration. The conditions were threefold: no non-Danish bases, no nuclear warheads, and no Allied military activity on Danish territory.

Bo Hermansen served in a conscript reconnaissance platoon of the Danish Jutland Dragoon Regiment during the 1980s. His squadron was part of the divisional reconnaissance for the Danish Jutland division which was tasked to move into the north of West Germany and link up with West German units to stop a Warsaw Pact advance into Jutland.

Bo describes Denmark’s political stance during this period where the election of President Reagan in the US and his policies regarding defence caused some concern in Denmark and elsewhere in Europe. We hear of his unit’s tactics against the Warsaw Pact, the exercises he participated in, the rivalry between units, and why a Danish tank was painted pink!

It’s a fascinating view into the organisation and tactics of one of the lesser-known members of NATO.

Extra episode information here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode315

The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and via a simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to preserve Cold War history. You’ll become part of our community, get ad-free episodes, and get a sought-after CWC coaster as a thank you and you’ll bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history.

Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/

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0:00 Introduction to the episode and guest Bo Hermansen

7:31 Bo's decision to join the military and family reactions

12:33 Training, challenges, and transition to a professional soldier

19:46 Role and composition of the 5th Battalion of the Jutland Dragoon Regiment

28:42 Preparations for war: Major exercises and deployment practice

35:16 Relations with the Germans and other international troops during the Cold War

43:45 Importance of history and ethos in the Jutland Dragoons

51:32 Transition to green and black paint for Danish vehicles: Controversies and anecdotes

1:00:09 Escape and survival training in the Danish Army

1:08:06 Dedication to Bo's platoon and episode extras

1:08:33 Closing remarks

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The Cold War Atomic Spies (314) Oct 20, 2023

Show notes

On 29 August 1949 at 7:00 a.m. the Soviet Union exploded its first atomic bomb.

The test stunned the Western powers. American intelligence had estimated that the Soviets would not produce an atomic weapon until 1953, while the British did not expect it until 1954.

The speed at which the Soviet Union developed their bomb was due a network of spies from the United States, the United Kingdom, and Canada who gave the Soviet Union the necessary information to develop an atomic bomb

They were motivated by a range of factors. Some, such as ideology or a belief in communism, were committed to advancing the interests of the Soviet Union. Others were motivated by financial gain, while some may have been coerced or blackmailed into spying.

I speak with author Andrew Long who has written “Secrets of the Cold War – espionage and intelligence operations from both sides of the Iron Curtain” which covers this story and many others.

Buy the book here https://uk.bookshop.org/a/1549/9781526790255

Book Giveaway info here https://coldwarconversations.com/giveaway/

Extra episode information here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode314/

Other episodes

Interview with a KGB agent trained by two of the Atomic Spies https://coldwarconversations.com/episode140/

The Portland Spies https://coldwarconversations.com/episode138/ & https://coldwarconversations.com/episode139/

Ottawa Soviet defector Igor Gouzenko https://coldwarconversations.com/episode194/

Ethen Rosenberg https://coldwarconversations.com/episode184/

Guy Burgess & The Cambridge 5 https://coldwarconversations.com/episode148

Kim Philby’s granddaughter recollections https://coldwarconversations.com/episode228/

Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/

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0:00 Introduction to the podcast and the topic of the Soviet Union's first atomic bomb

1:13 The history of atomic physics and the conceptualization of the atomic bomb

6:34 Collaboration between the US and the UK on the atomic bomb project and its aftermath

11:24 Espionage and the role of spies in the Soviet Union's acquisition of atomic technology

20:50 The Cambridge Five and how Cairncross broke the story to the Soviets about the atomic bomb project

33:33 The contribution of Ted Hall and George Koval to Soviet Intelligence

38:27 British spy Klaus Fuchs's role at Los Alamos and his ideological motivations

51:49 Fuchs's contribution to the Los Alamos setup and the plutonium bomb

59:12 Post-war movements of the atomic spies and the unraveling of the Soviet Spy network

1:10:02 The arrest and conviction of Klaus Fuchs and the Rosenberg case

1:15:29 The fate of the spies and the impact of atomic espionage on the Cold War and global power dynamics

1:25:14 Introduction to Andrew's book and closing remarks

1:26:20 Podcast outro and acknowledgments

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Spying on NATO from a Cold War East German Army radio monitoring base Part 2 (313) Oct 13, 2023

Show notes

This is the second part of my chat with Thomas who worked in a secret East German radio monitoring base.

He describes how a BRIXMIS or another Allied Military Liason Mission vehicle had once got into the base and what the East German Army was told about MLM capabilities.

When the officers aren’t around he and his comrades listen to Western radio and watch Western TV.

Gorbachev is now in power and liberalisation has now started in the Soviet Union and the East German government worries about contamination. Thomas describes his participation in the Dresden protests and is totally shocked by police brutality against East German citizens.

We talk about the opening of the Wall and the decline in NVA discipline as East Germany starts to implode in the march to reunification. We also hear about the surprising contents of his Stasi file.

Extra episode information here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode313/

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0:00 Introduction

1:21 Thomas's Stasi file and military liaison mission experiences

11:30 Perception of NATO and potential for invasion

18:06 Exposure to Western media and culture

22:39 Unrest and start of the rebellion in East Germany

34:20 Closure of the Czech border

49:04 Shared experiences with American and Czech soldiers

55:38 Recollection of the day the Berlin Wall came down

1:02:55 First experience visiting the West and adapting to Western lifestyle

1:12:27 Transitioning back to civilian life and the reunification of Germany

1:27:13 Joining the Cold War Conversations Facebook discussion group

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Spying on NATO from a Cold War East German Army radio monitoring base Part 1 (312) Oct 06, 2023

Show notes

Born in 1968 in East Germany Thomas had a "normal socialist" but happy childhood in a small town near Dresden. His family was viewed as exotic at that time as his mother had Hungarian citizenship which allowed her to travel to West Berlin.

He was conscripted into the East German Army and signed up for 3 years as an Unteroffizier (NCO) instead of one and a half years of compulsory service.

After training he is posted to a radio reconnaissance battalion based on the top of a mountain in the middle of nowhere near the inner German border. The unit was tasked with monitoring NATO surface-to-air missile batteries such as Patriots, and Nike Hercules, tracking NATO air traffic in Western Europe, and listening to air-to-ground transmissions.

Thomas describes the isolated life on the mountain and harsh winters with lots of snow. The base was protected with a high-voltage double fence and sentries. With good visibility, Thomas could see the enemy on a similar mountaintop monitoring station on the other side of the border.

Extra episode information here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode312/

0:00 Introduction and background of Thomas

7:21 Thomas' schooling and impact of politics on education

16:23 Thomas's decision to join the army and experiences in Hungary

24:21 Living close to West Berlin and parents' experiences in West Germany

32:35 Experiences at the border and considering escape from East Germany

38:16 Thomas' drafting into the East German army

44:47 The drafting process and training in East Germany

50:42 Life at the outpost and working with the Czech Army

1:01:41 Social life, restrictions, and interactions with locals

1:09:15 The struggle to access Western media and relationship with officers

1:13:15 Acknowledgement of financial supporters

1:13:33 Closing remarks and teaser for next week's episode

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Cold War US Army tank gunner serves with a Bundeswehr Panzer unit (311) Sep 29, 2023

Show notes

Mark joined the US Army on January 6th, 1981, and went to Ft Knox KY for Basic and Armor training. He graduated in April 1981 and was selected as Instructor Tank commander and trained the next cycle of recruits till August 1981.

Mark was posted to West Germany in September 1981 and was assigned to 1st 37th Armor 1st Armored Div based in Katterbach. When he arrived they were just turning in their M60A2s for the M60A3s. Mark was made a gunner on C-22 as an E-2 private which is rare.

He was also picked to serve with a 1st 304th Bundeswehr PZ unit in Leopard 1A4s in 1982 and describes some fascinating details of the differences between the Bundeswehr and the US Army.

In 1982 his friend Dean McCoy was killed in a military accident and Mark experienced PTSD for the last 30 years as a result. We dedicate this episode to the memory of Sammy Dean McCoy who died on March 18th 1982 aged 21.

0:00 Introduction and Background of Mark

3:11 Mark's experiences in West Germany

9:59 Life expectations and preparations in case of a Soviet Invasion

14:44 Comparison Between Leopard and M60 A3 Tanks, and German and American Tank Training

20:18 Interactions with other national armies and demonstrations of West German firepower

25:36 Escape, Evasion, and Gunnery training

30:42 Naming of tanks and preparation for chemical Warfare

36:24 Differences between Army Life in West Germany and Fort Knox

39:15 Memorable and tragic incidents during service in West Germany

47:34 Discussion on the Book "Red Army" by Ralph Peters and Mark's PTSD

54:12 Podcast Closing Remarks

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Uncovering Cold War Soviet secrets with the USAF and NSA (310) Sep 22, 2023

Show notes

Tim served in the USAF and the NSA from 1975 to 1988 during some of the most tense periods of the Cold War.

This included stints at the US Air Force Electronic Warfare Center at Kelly AFB, Texas, and RAF Chicksands, in the UK working on SIGINT collection of USSR/Warsaw Pact/Other targets.

He also served as part of the Cryptologic Support Group, Strategic Air Command HQ, Offutt AFB, Nebraska providing SIGINT briefings to SAC leadership on worldwide events

In 1983 he transferred to the NSA and later GCHQ, Cheltenham, Glos 1984-1988.

We hear about how the first indications that something was amiss the morning Chernobyl reactor exploded in 1986, the day the cleaners answered the secure phone at SAC HQ, and how at GCHQ the US and British intelligence share information as part of the UKUSA Agreement.

0:00 Introduction and Tim's background in the US Air Force

5:12 Understanding electronic warfare and data gathering at Kelly Air Force Base

16:58 Posting at RAF Chicksands in Bedford, UK, and monitoring for changes in regular patterns

25:52 The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Iranian hostage crisis

36:19 Able Archer alerts and other instances of signals intelligence at Strategic Air Command, Nebraska

44:16 Incident of the KAL007 Korean airliner and US Navy exercise incidents

57:08 Misinterpretation during a briefing on a recon flight of TU-95 bear bombers and gathering intel on the Soviet Union

1:01:18 Constant pressure to provide intel on Soviet leadership and missile alerts during Soviet drills

1:05:34 Transition from Air Force to NSA and role at the NSA

1:14:08 Tracking Chinese air defense and transition to GCHQ

1:22:08 U.S. stance during the Falkland conflict and witnessing the Chernobyl reactor explosion

1:30:59 Anecdote about NSA bureaucracy and language proficiency test

1:34:21 Closing and thanks to supporters

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Extra episode info here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode310/

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Thanks to listener Phil Curme for introducing me to Tim. You can read his blog here walkingthebattlefields.com

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REME Keeping the British Army on the road during the Cold War (309) Sep 15, 2023

Show notes

Aged 16 Chris joined the British Army apprentice school in Arborfield, at Princess Marina College. He was trained as a vehicle mechanic in the Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers otherwise known as REME.

We talk about life expectancy in war scenarios, experiences with crash-out exercises, and life as a British soldier in West Germany

Chris also served Post-Wall Berlin with the Military Police and describes an interesting “secret” job he was involved in.

The episode was recorded at one of the Hack Green Nuclear Bunker Living History Weekends where Chris is one of the re-enactors. His advice has proved valuable to the other re-enactors as he is someone who was there…

It’s a great down-to-earth account of a sometimes forgotten part of the British Army, without whose support they wouldn’t have been able to operate.

0:00 Introduction and Chris's early life and decision to join the British army

3:05 Life expectancy in war scenarios and crash out exercises

4:40 Casualties on exercises and in training

9:25 Encounters with Soviet military liaison units and inspections by the Warsaw Pact

13:59 Living with the constant threat of conflict and its mental toll

15:53 De-escalation of tensions and the opening of the Berlin Wall

19:45 Life in Berlin post-Wall

20:31 Best aspects of serving in the British Army of the Rhine (BAOR)

23:57 Differences between the RAF and the Army

26:03 Closing remarks

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Extra episode info here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode309/

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Gunfire in the Woods: A foiled escape and imprisonment in Cold War East Germany (308) Sep 08, 2023

Show notes

This is part two of Henrik’s story. You can hear the first part in episode 307. https://coldwarconversations.com/episode307

It’s the late 1980s and Henrik and his friends plan to escape from East Germany via Czechoslovakia.

Henrik provides a very vivid account of their discovery by Czechoslovak border guards in a forest near the Austrian border. He describes the moment the guards open fire to get them to stop.

Henrik is separated from his friends and held in various Czechoslovak prisons, before being flown back to East Germany. There he is interrogated for a number of months before being placed on trial.

After his conviction for Republikflucht or "desertion from the republic" he is held on in a rough criminal prison in Dresden before being moved to a work camp.

The prison and work camp has two types of prisoners, politicals and criminals. There he is exposed to the hardcore criminals of the GDR, violent criminals, murderers and neo-Nazis.

0:00 Introduction and recap of the previous episode

1:31 Interview with Henrik: Early plans and journey to Czechoslovakia

7:40 Arrest on the border and early imprisonment experiences

17:21 Transfer to Prague and encounter with the East German Stasi

28:23 Arrival at the Secret Service prison in Dresden and coping in prison

46:59 Interrogations and dealing with the Stasi

1:00:18 Family visits, communication in prison, and considering a change of mind

1:13:08 Reflections on the Stasi's approach and trial

54:36 Life in remand prison and public humiliation during transport to Rakowitz work camp

1:00:06 Living conditions, daily life, and experiences in Rakowitz work camp

1:10:54 Announcement of amnesty and release from prison

1:14:00 Post-release observations on the social climate in East Germany

1:23:18 Closing remarks and outro

Extra episode information https://coldwarconversations.com/episode308

Special thanks to Jonny Whitlam for introducing Henrik to CWC. You can book his excellent Berlin tours here https://www.whitlams-berlin-tours.com/

Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/

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