Cold War Conversations

Latest Episodes:

A US Diplomat's Son in Cold War Soviet Union, Nicaragua and Cuba (347) May 24, 2024

Show notes

In this fascinating interview, Patrick D. Joyce recounts his unique experience growing up as the son of a U.S. diplomat during the Cold War.

Living in the diplomatic community of the Soviet Union, Nicaragua, and Cuba, Patrick shares vivid memories of his father's career as a Soviet and linguistic expert, who rose to become Deputy Ambassador at both the Moscow and Havana US embassies.

The discussion touches on the juxtaposition of ordinary family life in various U.S. embassies around the world alongside the extraordinary circumstances of espionage and international relations, highlighting the complexities and contradictions of living in hostile countries during tense political times.

The narrative weaves through personal anecdotes, school experiences, interactions with local populations, and the evolving geopolitical landscape, providing a deeply personal lens on historical events.

Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode347/

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Patrick D. Joyce is the author of two Cold War thrillers for young adults: Back in the USSR and Strawberry Fields. Learn more about Patrick and his books at https://patrickdjoyce.com.

Obituary in The Foreign Service Journal for Patrick’s father, John M. “Mike” Joyce:

https://afsa.org/sites/default/files/flipping_book/070823/90/

“The Old Russian Legacy,” by John M. Joyce, in Foreign Policy (1984):

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1148385

“La guerra de la CIA contra Cuba,” the 1987 Cuban TV exposé that aired the night before Patrick’s family departed Havana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqdlRcs06-Y

The Washington Post on the Cuban TV exposé:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/07/25/spy-charges-strain-us-cuban-ties/d1a4ecc6-a7f6-4765-9a74-16a2d925b2eb/

James Olson on Foreign Policy’s I Spy podcast, with a recently revealed backstory to the Cuban TV exposé:

https://foreignpolicy.com/podcasts/ispy/?episode=the-counterspy

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0:00 Introduction to Cold War Conversations

00:27 Meet Patrick D Joyce: A Diplomat's Son

01:37 Early Life and Family Background

04:44 Life in the Diplomatic Community

09:06 Experiences in the Soviet Union

19:00 Return to Moscow in the 80s

23:58 Navigating Diplomatic Life

29:06 Reflections and Writing Novels

30:13 Arrival in Managua: A Soviet Satellite

30:52 Life Amidst Conflict: The Contra War

32:41 Navigating Diplomatic Challenges

35:03 Teenage Adventures in a War-Torn City

38:04 Spies Among Us: Embassy Life Revealed

40:46 Transition to Havana: A Diplomatic Shift

42:54 Living in Havana: Between Luxury and Hostility

46:44 A Summer Job in Havana

48:04 Suspicions and Scandals: The Spy Question

54:31 Return to Moscow: A New Era

58:56 Life in Moscow: Socializing and Escaping

01:00:18 Final Departure: A Road Trip to Freedom

01:01:08 Episode Extras and Acknowledgements

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East German Army Bullying, Serving in a Brigade HQ and Military Exercises (346) May 17, 2024

Show notes

Warning: This episode does cover the subject of suicide. If you need help please use these links:

UK https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/
Rest of the World https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp

Tilo shares his raw and powerful testimony of a young man conscripted into the East German military at the height of Cold War tensions. He recounts the daunting prospect of being drafted into the border guards, an assignment he was determined to avoid at all costs due to his moral opposition to the Berlin Wall and the potential to be forced into shooting unarmed escapers.

Tilo vividly describes the intense medical and psychological scrutiny he faced from military officials and shares the ingenious way he ensured he wouldn't be placed in the border guards, a tactic that involved a bold statement of conscience in front of a military panel.

The episode also delves into the harsh realities of East German military life, from the ritual humiliations of new recruits to the tragic story of a comrade's suicide attempt under the pressures of service. We explore the psychological toll of such an environment and the coping mechanisms soldiers use to survive.

Tilo also describes working in an artillery brigade headquarters, an unusual tactic to prevent Allied Military Liaison Missions from identifying their vehicles and an attack by East German paratroops during an exercise.

Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode346/

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00:00 Trigger Warning and Introduction

00:54 Tilo's Early Life and Draft Experience

02:43 Avoiding the Border Guards

10:27 Life in the Artillery Brigade

14:37 Harsh Realities and Hazing

18:14 Comrade's Suicide Attempt

35:03 Zyklus 89 Exercise and Conclusion

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America's Cold War Scottish Bastion (345) May 10, 2024

Show notes

David McKay is a former Cold War special forces officer and author of Bubbleheads, SEALs and Wizards: America's Scottish Bastion in the Cold War.

His book highlights the Scottish bases' significant role in supporting the US military over three decades.

David brings his expertise into play, examining this intriguing story by reaching out to more than one hundred veterans and expert witnesses. Their contributions reveal the personal stories of history, not high-end diplomacy.

We also delve into the espionage efforts mounted by the KGB against these bases through trawlers and agents on the ground.

Among the many stories that David details are the nuclear missile submarine operations from Holy Loch, the large radio spy stations and reveals for the first time one of America’s most bizarre intelligence gathering activities of the early Cold War.

Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode345/

Buy the book and support us here https://uk.bookshop.org/a/1549/9781849955546

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00:00 Introducing Cold War Conversations and David Mackay

01:54 David Mackay: From Paratrooper to Cold War Historian

05:30 The Strategic Importance of Scottish Bases in the Cold War

08:32 Project Genetrix: Balloons, Espionage, and Cold War Ingenuity

16:49 The U.S. Submarine Base in Scotland: Strategic Decisions and Local Impact

26:55 Espionage and Security: Spies, Spetsnaz, and Surveillance

33:20 The Soviet Presence in Scotland: Trawlers, Spies, and Local Encounters

41:25 Close Encounters of the Naval Kind

42:09 The Cat and Mouse of Cold War Submarines

42:53 Espionage and a High Seas Emergency

44:13 Gathering Intel

46:21 Signals Intelligence and the Scottish Connection

56:14 The Strategic Importance of Machrihanish

01:04:56 Prestwick Airport: A Cold War Crossroads

01:08:29 Reflecting on the Cuban Missile Crisis

01:11:37 Personal Anecdotes and Cold War Reflections

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The Challenges of a Christian East German Childhood (344) May 03, 2024

Show notes

Tilo offers an engaging and personal account of growing up in East Berlin before the fall of the Berlin Wall. He begins by describing his early childhood in a rundown building in Prenzlauer Berg before moving to a new prefab neighbourhood in Lichtenberg.

Tilo’s grandfather on his mother’s side was a pastor in the Lutheran church and second in command to a Bishop at the end of his career. His grandfather on his father’s side had been a teacher and had joined the Nazi party After the World War Two he was banned from working.

Tilo’s family faced educational and career limitations due to their religious and political background compounded by the pervasive influence of the Stasi and party loyalty in determining one’s future.

Tilo also recounts experiences of attending school with a strong military and ideological indoctrination, including paramilitary training and pressure to join the National People's Army (NVA). Despite these challenges, he describes a vibrant underground punk scene and moments of resistance against the regime.

The story reflects on the significant socio-political changes during Tilo’s adolescence, including the impact of Chernobyl, the introduction of Glasnost, and the unexpected persistence of Nazi elements in East German society.

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00:00 Introduction to Cold War Conversations

00:35 Growing Up in East Berlin: A Personal Journey

00:48 Family Background and Political Challenges

01:17 School Life and Ideological Indoctrination

01:44 The Impact of Glasnost and Political Changes

03:30 Navigating the Complexities of East German Society

23:01 Reflections on East German Education and Military Training

25:55 Facing the Draft and the Pressure to Conform

41:37 The Punk Scene and Resistance in East Berlin

46:35 Concluding Thoughts and the Legacy of the Cold War

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Commanding a Cold War US Navy Nuclear Missile Submarine (343) Apr 26, 2024

Show notes

Bill Woodman is a former US Navy nuclear missile submarine commander, who shares his rich experiences from joining the US Naval Academy in 1964 to commanding two SSBN submarines, the USS James Monroe and the USS Alabama during the Cold War.

Bill opens up about his initial aspirations, rigorous training at the Naval Academy, and his challenging interviews with the legendary Admiral Rickover who directed the original development of US naval nuclear propulsion and controlled its operations for three decades.

He gives detailed insights into submarine operations, leadership challenges, operational readiness exercises, and the constant concern of being detected by enemy or friendly forces.

We also delve into Bill's personal challenges and the pressures on submarine families, his final patrol commanding the USS Alabama, and reflections on movies and literature that accurately depict submarine life.

Throughout, Bill shares anecdotes illustrating the camaraderie, mental fortitude, and technical prowess required to lead in the silent, unseen world of submarine warfare.

Extra episode content here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode343/

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00:00 A Harrowing Introduction to Admiral Rickover

00:33 Joining the Cold War Underwater: Bill Woodman's Journey

02:40 The Rigorous Path to Becoming a Submariner

04:33 The interview with Admiral Rickover

11:09 From Nuclear Power School to Submarine Command

15:50 Commanding the Depths: Life as a Submarine Commander

31:37 The Psychological and Family Challenges of Submarine Life

40:27 Life Aboard a Nuclear Submarine: The Stark Realities

41:36 Routine and Readiness: The Cycle of a Submariner

43:12 Rigorous Testing: Ensuring Operational Excellence

47:22 The Unthinkable Scenario: Letters of Last Resort and Defence Conditions

49:45 Cold War Cat and Mouse: Encounters at Sea

51:04 Leadership Under Pressure: A Harrowing Rescue at Sea

01:00:46 Interactions and Exercises: Allied Navies and the Soviet Shadow

01:07:05 Reflections on Command and the Unseen Challenges of Submarine Life

01:13:59 Submarine Cinema: Authentic Portrayals and Personal Recommendations

01:15:27 Closing Thoughts and Acknowledgments

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My friend the Bridge of Spies spy - Part 2 (342) Apr 19, 2024

Show notes

Burt recounts the surreal experience of learning about Fisher's true identity from a newspaper headline, the subsequent FBI interrogations, and the emotional courtroom testimony where he struggled to reconcile his friendship with the stark reality of espionage.

Burt's journey leads him to Moscow in a failed attempt to reconnect with Fisher, revealing a labyrinthine world of secrets and paranoia. He shares a heartfelt letter he left for Fisher, expressing regret and longing for a simpler time when art, not intrigue, was their common ground.

As a testament to the personal connection they shared, Burt unveils a handcrafted wooden box—a wedding gift made by Fisher himself—symbolizing the genuine human connection that endured despite the shadowy world they navigated.

This episode is a poignant exploration of identity, memory, and the complex human relationships that defy the black-and-white narrative of the Cold War.

Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode342

The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and viaa simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to preserve Cold War history.

You’ll become part of our community, get ad-free episodes, and get a sought-after CWC coaster as a thank you and you’ll bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history.

Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/

If a monthly contribution is not your cup of tea, we welcome one-off donations via the same link.

Connect with us on social media for more Cold War content:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/ColdWarPod

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My friend the Bridge of Spies spy - Part 1 (341) Apr 12, 2024

Show notes

In a riveting episode that peels back the layers of Cold War espionage, we sit down with Burt, an artist who unwittingly befriended a man better known as Colonel Abel, the infamous Bridge of Spies Spy who was exchanged for shot down US U2 pilot Gary Powers.

Burt knew Abel as Emil Goldfuss but his real name was Willie Fisher from Newcastle Upon Tyne in England. Fisher was a Soviet agent deeply embedded in the fabric of New York City's bustling art scene.

Burt's tale unfolds in a studio building exclusively for artists, where he first crossed paths with Fisher in an old-fashioned elevator—an encounter that would mark the beginning of an unexpected friendship.

Burt reminisces about their shared moments, from the peculiar request for a cup of turpentine to late-night discussions surrounded by the haze of cigarette smoke. He reflects on the nuances of their bond, the fatherly figure he saw in Fisher, and the mutual need for companionship that transcended the spy's professional obligations.

Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode341/

Don’t miss part two of this amazing conversation next week…

The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and viaa simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to preserve Cold War history.

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A Diver Sapper in the Cold War Soviet Navy (340) Apr 05, 2024

Show notes

Valeriy was a Soviet Navy diver sapper and was born and raised in Kyiv, Ukraine. I have used a human translator for this episode so the main voice you will hear is my translator Galina Ryabova who was kindly funded by one of my financial supporters

Valeriy opens up about his childhood, the impact of the Great Patriotic War on his family, and his mother's resilience in raising him after his father's untimely death. He shares insights into his schooling, where history and geography sparked his curiosity, and his early military training which set the stage for his specialised role in the Soviet Navy.

Valeriy offers a rare glimpse into the life of a Soviet Navy diver sapper, trained in both underwater firearms and explosives, tasked with clearing mines to pave the way for naval infantry. He provides revealing insights into underwater warfare during the 1980s.

His unit was stationed near Kaliningrad, where he describes his equipment and the day-to-day life that included guarding, surveillance, and rigorous half-yearly military exercises.

Reflecting on the broader scope of the Cold War, Valeri discusses his perceptions of the US and NATO, the political climate under Gorbachev, and the aftermath of the USSR's dissolution.

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Gymnastics and Pills: An East German Childhood (339) Mar 30, 2024

Show notes

Sirka offers a comprehensive exploration of life in East Germany, detailing the experiences of growing up in Neubrandenburg, the influence of the East German state and the Stasi, and the societal impacts of Mikhail Gorbachev's policies leading up to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

She also talks of her intensive gymnastics training and being given pills by her trainer...

Sirka also describes the transition to reunification, highlighting the challenges of adapting to a new economic system and the mixed feelings toward sudden exposure to Western consumer culture.

Additionally, it includes a reflective conversation on post-reunification life in Germany, discussing Sirka's and her family's adjustment to the changes, including the effects on employment, homeownership, and personal political histories.

Video and photo extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode339

The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and viaa simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to preserve Cold War history.

Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/

If a monthly contribution is not your cup of tea, we welcome one-off donations via the same link.

Connect with us on social media for more Cold War content:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/ColdWarPod

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/

YouTube: https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations

For the perfect gift for the Cold War enthusiast in your life, visit our store at https://coldwarconversations.com/store/

If you love history, check out Into History at https://intohistory.com/coldwarpod

00:00 Preview

00:22 Welcome to Cold War Conversations

00:36 Life in East Germany: An Insider's Perspective

01:50 Circa's Childhood and Family Life in Neubrandenburg

03:33 The Impact of World War II on Family Histories

05:42 Navigating Post-War East Germany

07:53 The East German Regime Through a Family's Eyes

10:31 Cultural and Educational Experiences in East Germany

23:23 The Challenges of Consumer Goods and Entertainment

25:39 School Life and Education in East Germany

34:17 Extracurricular Activities: Singing Club and Gymnastics

44:58 The Intensity of Gymnastics Training in East Germany

46:15 The Secret Gymnastics Pills

48:14 The Grueling Training Regime and Its Impact

49:46 The Power of Music and Discipline in a Regimented Society

50:38 The Harsh Realities of Military-Style Training

51:39 Life Under an Autocratic System: Acceptance and Adaptation

55:26 The Transition to College and the End of Gymnastics

55:56 Exploring Moscow: A Glimpse into the Space Race

01:03:37 Witnessing the Winds of Change: The Fall of the Berlin Wall

01:14:21 Navigating the New World: Post-Wall Challenges and Reflections

01:25:05 A Journey Back in Time: Revisiting Memories and the Stasi Files

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The Soviet Afghan War (338) Mar 23, 2024

Show notes

The Soviet-Afghan War lasted ten years between 1979-1989 and led to the deaths of between 500k and 2m Afghan civilians.

I speak with Nick Geering a Russian history and language teacher. From his memories of the haunting sight of uniformed amputees in St Petersburg to the complex origins of the conflict, we explore the intricacies of a war that was both an accident and a tragedy.

Our conversation traverses the murky politics that led to the Soviet invasion, the unpreparedness of the conscript-heavy Soviet army, and the brutal reality of life for soldiers caught in the mountainous terrain of Afghanistan. We also discuss the question of international support for the Mujahideen and the controversial impact of Western-supplied weaponry.

The episode also shines a light on the deeply entrenched hierarchy within the Soviet military, harrowing drug abuse among troops, and the chilling treatment of prisoners of war on both sides. As we approach the subject of the Soviet withdrawal, we reflect on the war's enduring scars, the fate of the communist Afghan government, and how the conflict is remembered today in Russia.

Video and photo extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode338

The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and viaa simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to preserve Cold War history.

Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/

If a monthly contribution is not your cup of tea, we welcome one-off donations via the same link.

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00:00 Introduction to the Complexity of the Soviet-Afghan War

00:26 Diving Deep into the Soviet-Afghan War with Nick Gearing

01:38 Nick Gearing's Personal Journey and Initial Exposure to War Veterans

03:13 Exploring the Intricacies and Origins of the Soviet-Afghan War

16:17 The Soviet Military's Challenges and Adaptations in Afghanistan