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    Christianity

    BibleProject

    The creators of BibleProject have in-depth conversations about the Bible and theology. A companion podcast to BibleProject videos found at bibleproject.com

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    Copyright: © 2021 BibleProject

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    Latest Episodes:
    Q+R: Son of Man - Son of Man E9 Mar 11, 2019
    Show notes

    Show Notes:

    Welcome to our Q+R on the Son of Man! Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. Here are the questions we responded to:

    Matt from Australia: (0:55)
    I've got a question about humans and animals. It seems like animals get a really bad rap. You've been talking about when humans don't pass the test or live as they're made to live, they're not truly the image of God, they act less than human or to be true, they act like animals. And I'm wondering what about animals is so bad or so wrong? Or are you trying to communicate about a different reality than an animal? Thanks!

    Petra from the Netherlands: (6:20)
    In the podcast (The Empty Throne), Tim refers to the Empty Throne in Daniel 7, but if I read Daniel 7 in different translations, vs 9 says "thrones" and vs 10 "the court place." So I get the conclusion that thrones are set for the court. In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells his disciples that they will sit on the 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. I don't assume that's specific because in Revelation it says 24. My question is, where do you get the conclusion that the empty throne refers to the Son of Man because I come to the conclusion that it refers to the court. Thank you!

    Rachel from Delaware: (12:35)
    This is a question I've always had: where is Daniel in Daniel 3?

    Stephanie from Virginia: (21:05)
    My question is, why is Daniel portrayed as a new human, a new Adam, when he is not THE new human, the Messiah to come?

    John from North Wales: (21:20)
    I've found this series on the Son of Man really exciting. I have a question about Daniel. I was struck when you were taking us through those first chapters in the book of Daniel that Daniel himself actually seems to be a flawless human being. My working paradigm was that there are no heroes in the Old Testament except for God himself, but Daniel does actually seems to pass the test (or at least to not really fail the test at any particular point). So how do you interpret the figure of Daniel? Thanks!

    Sam from Ohio: (26:04)
    In Daniel 7:18, 22, 27, it speaks of the saints being given the dominion and kingdom to possess forever. Verse 27 ends by saying, "All dominions shall serve and obey them." But the ESV footnote says it might end by saying, "All dominions shall serve and obey him." Is it a possible interpretation to view the Son of Man as a figurative representation of all the saints of the Most High rather than a specific individual? Or what is the connection between the individual and the collective groups of saints? Thanks!

    Douglas from Rwanda: (40:15)
    I was curious about the use of the word "son of man" in other Old Testament books such as Ezekiel. Ezekiel appears to be written before Daniel and they use the exact same word "son of man." I wonder if you know if it has a different meaning, and if not, how is it related to Daniel's use of "son of man?" Thank you!

    Ivan from El Salvador: (43:20)
    I love the conversation about the Son of God and how he's someone God gave that title. How, with that definition, do we read John 1:12 that whoever receives him will be called a son of God? How do we understand that, or does John have a different definition in mind?

    Thank you to all of our supporters!

    Find more resources at www.thebibleproject.com

    Show produced by:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins

    Theme music:
    Defender Instrumental, Tents


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    Thieves by the Throne - Son of Man E8 Mar 04, 2019
    Show notes

    In part one (0:00-13:15), Tim and Jon briefly recap the series so far. Then Tim says that there are three different nuances that Jesus uses when describing himself as the Son of Man.

    The first nuance is Jesus calling himself the Son of Man when saying that he has divine authority. Here’s an example from Mark 2:8-12:
    "Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.” And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

    Tim says that when Jesus says, “The son of man has authority on earth,” it is recalling Adam/humanity's forfeited authority over the land/earth in Genesis 1.
    In the story, Jesus steps in as an Adam figure and also a high priest figure. The major part of the priests' job is to intercede for sinners and offer sacrifices of atonement for them. Jesus picks up the Adam-priest mantle in this story.

    Tim quotes from scholar Joel Marcus: “Adam was created to be the terrestrial representative of the heavenly king, to rule on earth as God rules in heaven… Jesus here emphasizes that his authority to forgive sin on earth derives its ultimate authority from God’s prerogative to forgive sins in heaven… The first Adam is associated with both royal rule and with sin and death, and so here Jesus is portrayed as the royal human who has power over both sin and death.” -- Joel Marcus, Son of Man as Son of Adam, 372-373.

    In part two (13:15-26:30), the guys dive into another example from Mark 2:23-28:
    "And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” And He *said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made because of the human, and not the human because of the Sabbath. So the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

    Tim observes that the Sabbath in Genesis 1 is an ideal of new creation that the first Adam never fully attained, and so it remained to be attained by a future son of man. Jesus is claiming to be that one. Tim quotes from Joel Marcus again: “From Genesis itself, to be sure, one might get the impression that the Sabbath was not created “because of the human,” but “for/because of God.” God rested on the seventh day from the labor of the preceding six, and therefore hallowed the seventh day in perpetuity… However, in Jewish tradition, scholars went to great pains to make clear that God wasn’t tired...but that the purpose of the Sabbath was for humanity, to provide rest for them… A similar line of thought is found here in Mark 2, the Sabbath was created for Adam’s sake and for the humanity he represents, not the other way around. The Sabbath was built into the structure of the world that was made subject to Adam. Therefore, Adam’s final son (the son of man), who has recovered dominion that his great forefather had forfeited, is the Lord not only of the world in general, but of the Sabbath in particular.” -- Joel Marcus, The Son of Man as the Son of Adam, 375-376.

    In part three (26:30-36:00), Tim talks about the second nuance that Jesus uses when referring to himself as the Son of Man; he describes himself as suffering. The guys examine Mark 10:35-45:
    "James and John, the two sons of Zebedee, *came up to Jesus, saying, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask of You.” And He said to them, “What do you want Me to do for you?” They said to Him, “Grant that we may sit, one on Your right and one on Your left, in Your glory.” But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” They said to Him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized. “But to sit on My right or on My left, this is not Mine to give; but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”

    “Hearing this, the ten began to feel indignant with James and John. Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. “But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

    Tim cites Joel Marcus again saying that Mark 10:45 may be paraphrased as such: “Like his great ancestor Adam before the fall, the Son of Adam had the right and authority to be served, as ruler of all creatures on earth. But instead of exercising this right, the Son of Man has become the slave of all humanity, even to the point of dying for them. In so doing, he has reversed the effect of Adam’s sin, the death which he passed onto his offspring; the one Son of Adam has given his life as a ransom for the many children of Adam who were deprived of their life by the transgression of “the human.” -- Joel Marcus, Son of God as Son of Adam.

    In part four (36:00-43:15), Tim continues examining this story by Jesus. Jesus believes that he, as the Son of Man is going to rule by serving and suffering. Tim says that this idea becomes significant when thinking about the Christian tradition of baptism. It is a symbolic representation of following Christ through the veil of death to be resurrected to new, real, eternal life after.

    In part five (43:15-59:50), Tim points out the third nuance that Jesus uses to show himself as the Son of Man: the Son of Man will be vindicated after death. Jon notes that understanding these nuances really helps to fill in a lot of the blanks that round out Jesus' identity and actions.

    In part six (59:50-end), Tim and Jon recap the whole series. Tim shares a final quote from Joel Marcus:
    “The Son of Man” is an apocalyptic symbolic figure. It the Son of Man is a new Adam, then the Jesus of the Gospels presents himself as the founder of a new humanity. This is why the Gospel authors depict Jesus as carrying out his ministry in the “last days”, as the recapitulation and perfection of “the beginning.” In this context, the good news of Jesus’ opening message in Mark 1:15 (“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near!”) is not simply that time of waiting for a new event to happen is over. Rather, he means that the old universe is dying and a new creation is being born.” -- Joel Marcus, Son of Man as Son of Adam, 385.

    Thank you to all of our supporters!
    Have a question? Send it to info@jointhebibleproject.com

    Show Produced By:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins, Tim Mackie

    Show Music:

    Defender Instrumental, Tents

    Royalty Free Spanish Guitar

    Amber, The Loyalist

    Heal My Sorrows

    Where Peace and Rest are Found

    Moon, Lemmino

    Show Resources:

    Brandon Crowe, The Last Adam: A Theology of the Obedient Life of Jesus in the Gospels

    Joel Marcus, The Son of Man as the Son of Adam

    Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2D3wD9o


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    Jesus With Wild Beasts - Son of Man E7 Feb 25, 2019
    Show notes

    In part one (0:00-19:00), the guys introduce Jesus and the Gospels into the conversation. Tim remarks that there is a whole field of scholarship dedicated to studying how Christ is portrayed as a new Adam or a new Son of Man.

    Tim focuses on Jesus in the Gospel of Mark.
    Mark 1:12-13:
    “Immediately the Spirit cast out into the wilderness. And He was in the wilderness forty days being tested by the Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.”

    Tim notes that the phrase “cast out” (Grk. εκβαλλω) is first used in the Old Testament account of Adam and Eve’s explusion from the garden of Eden (Gen 3:24). He also says that both of these stories are meant to be analagous to each other. Jesus is in the wilderness (garden) with the wild animals (Adam and Eve) in the presence of the angels (cherubim and cosmic mountain).

    Tim cites a quote by biblical scholar Brandon Crowe: “Whereas Adam failed the temptation in the garden and was cast out, Jesus is led by the Spirit into the wilderness, a setting associated with Israel’s testing and failure. Unlike Adam, Jesus does not fail the test, and in both stories of Adam and Jesus “expulsion” the same Greek word ekballo is employed. In the wilderness, Jesus is with the wild animals, but remains unharmed [T.M. like Daniel], which is supposed to strike the reader as unusual. Jesus’ peaceful coexistence with the wild animals signifies his authority over them, and recalls Adam’s original dominion over the animals in the garden. Like Adam, Jesus has been granted the worldwide dominion, becoming the instrument of God’s dominion over the world.” -- Brandon Crowe, The Last Adam: A Theology of the Obedient Life of Jesus in the Gospels, 24

    Tim points out that the temptation of Jesus in Mark, specifically the details of the angels serving him and him being with the wild beasts, is meant to show that Jesus is the new Adam, the perfect Adam who can coexist peacefully with animals in the wild.

    Further, Tim points out that Jesus is portrayed as having authority over the other spiritual beings (angels) to show that Jesus is the ideal Son of Man figure.

    In part two (19:00-18:30), Tim and Jon take a side tour and discuss how in Hebrew there are places where the Hebrew word adam can refer to either a specific character, Adam, or to humanity as a whole. The guys also discuss the nuances between the terms Son of Man and Son of God. Tim notes that Psalm 2 is a key passage for understanding how both of these terms link together.
    To be called the image of God as humanity means to be the creatures where heaven and earth are bound together.
    Psalm 2: “Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying, ‘Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.’ The One enthroned in heaven laughs, the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, ‘I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.’ I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.
    Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.’”

    In part three (18:30-end), Jon asks why heaven and earth are supposed to be ideally imaged in humanity. Tim replies that humanity is meant to be related to the elohim. We are not elohim, but we are to share in a similar status of having a divine ability to rule.

    Tim and Jon then dive into the temptation of Jesus portrayed in Matthew 4:8-11:
    “Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”
    Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’ ” Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.”

    Tim notes that there is only one other time in the New Testament where Jesus utters the phrase, “Get behind me Satan” or “Go, Satan” (in the NIV). It’s in Matthew 16:23: “Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."

    Tim notes that Jesus obviously sees that a satanic mindset is one where the mindset is human-focused and set on how a beast would rule the world, one of power and strength not of sacrifice.

    Tim points out that after these temptations, you are supposed to see Jesus as a new Adam. He peacefully coexists with animals. He’s a new Daniel; he doesn’t bow down to the rulers. He’s a new David because he rules righteously. Jesus is the full package.

    Thank you to all of our supporters!
    Have a question? Send it to info@jointhebibleproject.com

    Show Produced by:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins, Tim Mackie

    Show Music:
    Defender Instrumental, Tents
    Yesterday on Repeat, Vexento
    Morning, LIQWYD

    Show Resources:
    Exodus 4:22
    Matthew 4:8-11
    Psalm 2
    Brandon Crowe, The Last Adam: A Theology of the Obedient Life of Jesus in the Gospels
    Joel Marcus, “The Son of Man as the Son of Adam”
    Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2URk3BH


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    The True Human - Son of Man E6 Feb 18, 2019
    Show notes

    In part one (0:00-12:00), the guys quickly recap the biblical story leading up to Daniel 7. There are many models of the Son of Man in the Old Testament: Noah, Moses, David, Joshua. They all get close, but they ultimately fail and are not able to be the perfect “seed of the woman” that will crush the snake and fulfill the prophecy given in Genesis after the fall.

    In part two (12:00-29:30), the guys dive into Daniel 7:
    In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying in bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
    Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea. “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it. “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’ “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

    After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
    As I looked,
    thrones were set in place,
    and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
    His clothing was as white as snow;
    the hair of his head was white like wool.
    His throne was flaming with fire,
    and its wheels were all ablaze.
    A river of fire was flowing,
    coming out from before him.
    Thousands upon thousands attended him;
    ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
    The court was seated,
    and the books were opened.

    Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

    In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    Tim makes the following observations: The animals are like an anti-creation. They are extremely non-kosher animals. They are mutants, and they come out of chaotic, watery darkness. They are chaos creatures. Daniel sees the same throne room (v 9) that Ezekiel saw in his vision in Ezekiel 1. What Nebuchadnezzar had wanted, to be praised and worshiped by everyone, happens to the Son of Man when God exalts him.

    In parts three and four (29:30-52:00), Tim and Jon cover the interpretation of the dream in v15-27:
    I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.
    So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: ‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’
    Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
    He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
    ‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'

    Tim makes the following observations: The “holy ones” has a double meaning. It represents both the “holy” sons of God/elohim, that is celestial beings in the divine council, and it represents a true human race who are “holy” to God and fulfills their calling by following the true Son of Man.
    Daniel 7 is a symbolic and cosmic depiction of a real, historical conflict (Antiochus’ attack on Jerusalem and defilement of the temple in 167 B.C.), that is part of an ancient pattern going all the way back to Genesis 1-3.

    In part five (52:00-end), Tim observes that somewhere in Daniel 7 is a storyline that was crucial to Jesus and how he thought of his identity. So if someone wants to understand more about Jesus, they should invest the time to learn more about the Son of Man storyline in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Thank you to of all our supporters!
    Have a question for the upcoming Q+R? Send it to us!
    info@jointhebibleproject.com

    Show Produced By:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins

    Show Music:
    Defender Instrumental, Tents
    Pilgrim, Instrumental
    Going Up, Lakey Inspired
    Model Planes, Hands of a Craftsman
    Show Resources:

    Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2URk3BH

    Morna Hooker, "The Son of Man in Mark."

    John Goldingay, "Daniel" (Word Biblical Commentary)

    Crispin Fletcher-Louis, "The King, the Messiah, and the Ruler Cult" (ch. 6 of "Jesus Monotheism")

    Michael S. Heiser, Ch. 30 of "The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible."


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    The Beastly King - Son of Man E5 Feb 11, 2019
    Show notes

    In part one (0:00-6:30), the guys briefly go over the previous conversations from the Son of Man series. Tim explains that in order to fully understand the Son of Man imagery in Daniel 7, Daniel 1-6 needs to first be unpacked. Daniel 7 is significant because it’s a culminating vision of the whole Hebrew Bible imagery told in one very dense chapter.

    In part two (6:30-25:50), the guys go over the history of the Babylonian Empire and King Nebuchadnezzar. He was a king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire, a sort of resurgence of the previous Babylonian rule. Babylon had long been dormant while Assyria was the world superpower, but Babylon had a brief rise to prominence again under the rule of Nebuchadnezzar. He dominated Jerusalem and took their promising youth with him to Babylon. Daniel was in this group.

    Tim points out a few hyperlinks to other parts of the Hebrew Bible at the beginning of the book of Daniel. Daniel is the "royal seed" carried away to Babylon who replays the test of Adam and Eve and succeeds!

    Daniel 1:3-4: "And the king of Babylon told his officers to bring from the sons of Israel and from the royal seed… youths...who were good of sight and wise with all wisdom, and knowing knowledge, and understanding knowledge…"
    Dan 1:5-7: "And the king assigned for them a daily ration of the king’s choice food and his wine, to raise them for three years so they could stand in his service. Among them were sons of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah...but Daniel set it upon his heart to not defile himself with the king’s choice food or his wine…"
    Dan 1:12: "Daniel said, 'Let there be given to us from the seeds, and we will eat, and water, and we will drink.'"

    Daniel is depicted as a new Adam, who is brought into Babylon already having great knowledge. He refuses the forbidden food (Daniel ch. 1) and only increases in wisdom! Instead, he adopts an Eden-diet of veggies and water and is elevated to serve in the king’s court.

    Tim’s point is that Daniel is the forbidden fruit that the king of Babylon has just taken. Daniel has an opportunity to eat the forbidden food of the king and break his kosher diet. He refuses the forbidden food and therefore passes the test.

    In part three (25:50-end), Tim and Jon go over the two dreams that Nebuchadnezzar has leading up to Daniel 7. In Daniel 2, the king has a dream. Once Daniel gives the interpretation, the king worships Daniel.

    Daniel 2:46-49:
    "Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and worshipped (sagid) Daniel, and gave orders to present to him an offering and incense.
    Then the king promoted Daniel and gave him many great gifts, and he made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon and chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon.
    And Daniel made request of the king, and he appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego over the administration of the province of Babylon, while Daniel was at the king’s court."

    Then Daniel 3 is an inversion of Daniel 2. The king wants everyone to worship an image of him. This is the story of the blazing furnace.

    Daniel 3:10-12:
    “You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the image of gold.
    “But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. “There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve (palakh) your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

    So Daniel 2 and 3 are inversions of each other, and then in Daniel 4, the king has another dream. In the dream, a "watcher” appears. Tim notes that this is the only time that specific word appears in the Hebrew Bible. However, it also appears in the book of Enoch, a Jewish book written in the same time period.

    The king calls Daniel again to interpret the dream.

    Daniel 4:20-25:
    "The tree that you saw, which became large and grew strong, whose height reached to the sky and was visible to all the earth and whose foliage was beautiful and its fruit abundant, and in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt and in whose branches the birds of the sky lodged— it is you, O king; for you have become great and grown strong, and your majesty has become great and reached to the sky and your dominion to the end of the earth. ‘In that the king saw a watcher, a holy one, descending from heaven and saying, “Chop down the tree and destroy it; yet leave the stump with its roots in the ground, but with a band of iron and bronze in the new grass of the field, and let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him share with the beasts of the field until seven periods of time pass over him,” this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: that you be driven away from mankind and your dwelling place be with the beasts of the field, and you be given grass to eat like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven; and seven periods of time will pass over you, until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes."

    Tim notes that when the Babylons of this world acknowledge that God is truly the wise sovereign, then they can become the true human rulers they’re intended to be. But when they do not, when they turn their national power and glory into an idol (as in Daniel chs. 2 and 3), God shows them what they are: beasts.

    The narrative contrasts the beastly Babylon with the human Daniel who submits to God’s rule and is elevated to rule by God’s wisdom.

    So to sum up the episode: The king of Babylon’s worship of the divine image of Daniel in Daniel 2 is ironically reversed in Daniel 3, where his friends are forced to worship the false image of Babylon. These twin stories set up the tension of the book: What humanity will be exalted as the divinely appointed ruler of the world? Babylon or the “royal seed” represented by Daniel and his friends? The king’s worship of Daniel becomes a narrative image of the worship of the son of man in Daniel 7. And Daniel 7 is a symbolic and cosmic depiction of a real, historical conflict (Antiochus’ attack on Jerusalem and defilement of the temple in 167 B.C.) that has been depicted as part of an ancient pattern going all the way back to Genesis 1-3.

    Thank you to all of our supporters!

    Show Produced By:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins

    Show Music:
    Defender Instrumental, Tents
    Bloc, KV

    Show Resources:

    Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2URk3BH

    • B. Mastin, "Daniel 2:46 in the Hellenistic World," in Zeitschrift für alttestamentliche Wissenschaft, volume 85 (1973), pages 80-93.

    • Crispin Fletcher-Louis, "Jesus Monotheism" chapter 6, "High Priestly and Royal Messianism,"


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    Power Over the Snake - Son of Man E4 Feb 04, 2019
    Show notes

    In part one (0:00-13:10), Tim recaps the series so far. He says the Son of Man title is Christ’s favorite title to use to describe himself, and it originally comes from a dream in Daniel 7. Tim then recaps Genesis 1 and 2. Humans are created after the animals but are then called to rule over the animals. So the creation and power order is inverted. Humans are overcome by the animals when they listen to the serpent, and humans embrace an animal-like state. Tim emphasizes that flowing out of Genesis are two lineages: a human lineage, the seed of the woman, and an animal lineage, the seed of the serpent. And at some point, a Son of Man will deliver the seed of the woman from the seed of the serpent.

    In part two (13:10-18:30), Tim and Jon dive into the imagery of animals in the Bible. Jon asks what is the proper relationship with animals for people to have. Tim speculates that animals are meant to be in a peaceful relationship with humans. And a peaceful connection with the animals is an image the prophets use to describe a new creation. (Lions, lambs etc. )

    In part three (18:30-33:50), Tim dives further into Genesis. He examines the inverted first born/second born relationships in the book. Abraham has two children, Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael is the firstborn but is not chosen by God. Instead, God chooses Isaac. Then later in the story, Isaac has two sons, Jacob and Esau. Jacob is the second born and is chosen by God. Tim points out that the pattern is intentional.

    In part four (33:50-end), Tim then moves into the account of the Exodus. Pharaoh says he wants to deal “shrewdly” with the Hebrews. This is a synonym of the snake saying it is the “crafty” beast. Pharaoh is now embracing an animal-like tendency and seeking to harm the Hebrews.

    Then Tim dives into the story of the burning bush. God tells Moses to turn his staff into a snake ( snake (נחש) ). Many western readers see this story as some sort of magic trick that God is telling Moses to do. That's far from what's happening. Tim says the story is actually meant to portray Moses as a successful “son of man” who has power over the snake. This point is further emphasized when Moses and his brother Aaron go before Pharaoh to demand the release of the Hebrews. Aaron throws down his staff and it becomes, in Hebrew, a sea serpent. This is a different word than the previous word used for snake.

    Exodus 7:8-13:
    "Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Perform a sign,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a sea serpent (תנין).’" So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the Lord had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a sea serpent (תנין).
    Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. For each one threw down his staff and they turned into sea serpents (תנין). But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."

    Tim says the point is Moses and Aaron becoming associated characters. They are humans who have power over the snake. Literally. They grab snakes and symbolically they prevail over Pharaoh. This theme is picked up by later biblical authors who see the symbolism and use the same word, “sea serpent,” to describe Israel’s enemies.

    Isaiah 51:9-11:
    "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; [// the arm of Moses with the staff]
    Awake as in the days of old, the generations of long ago.
    Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, [= Israelite name for the god of Egypt]
    Who pierced the sea-monster (תנין/tanin)
    Was it not You who dried up the sea,
    The waters of the great deep;
    Who made the depths of the sea a pathway
    For the redeemed to cross over?
    So the ransomed of the Lord will return
    And come with joyful shouting to Zion"

    Ezekiel 32:2:
    “Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him,
    ‘You compared yourself to a young lion of the nations,
    Yet you are like the monster (tanin) in the seas."

    Thank you to all of our supporters!

    Have a question about the Son of Man? Send it to us as we begin preparing for an upcoming Q+R episode.

    Show Produced By:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins

    Show Music:
    Defender Instrumental, Tents
    Where Peace and Rest are Found, Beautiful Eulogy
    Conquer, Beautiful Eulogy
    Mind Your Time, Me. So.

    Show Resources:
    Son of Man Video: https://bit.ly/2D3wD9o
    Gerhard von Rad, Genesis: A Commentary
    Crispin Fletcher-Louis, Jesus Monotheism
    Richard Bauckham, Living with Other Creatures


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    The Snake in the Throne Room - Son of Man E3 Jan 28, 2019
    Show notes

    Welcome to episode 3 of our series on the Son of Man! In this episode, Tim and Jon dive deep into the history, the story, and the ideas surrounding one of the most famous figures in the Bible: the Serpent.

    In part one (0:00-8:00), Tim and Jon briefly recap the previous episode. Humanity is supposed to live in peaceful coexistence and be responsible for the animals.

    Tim says that Daniel’s vision in Daniel chapter 7 of the Son of Man shows us that humans are meant to be over the animals, but instead they end up behaving like animals.

    In part two (8:00-24:30), Tim dives into Genesis 3 and begins examining the serpent. The snake is presented as crafty. This is the Hebrew word "arum.” In other cases in the Bible, this word has a positive connotation, but in this context, it means a negative use of intelligence. Gen 3:1:
    "Now the serpent was more arum than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made."
    In the following Proverbs, arum is used to demonstrate a positive character trait.
    Proverbs 14:15: "The naive believes everything, but the sensible man considers his steps."
    Proverbs 27:12: "The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty."

    So in Genesis 3, arum is translated as “crafty.” This is the only time it's translated with a negative sense, but usually arum means sharp, quick thinker, problem solver etc.

    Tim also briefly says that in other ancient religions, especially in Egypt, snakes were symbolically significant. Tim says the snake is presented as a creature alongside the humans. It uses its divine blessing (wisdom) to twist the divine command by telling the humans that they can be like-God (or “like gods”). But the humans already are God-like, having been made in God’s image.

    Tim observes that after Adam and Eve take the serpent's advice, eat the fruit, and are expelled from the Garden, the very next story is one where Cain also listens to “sin” that is described as “crouching” at his door. Both of these narratives portray humans being ruled by beasts, instead of ruling over them. Death is the result. Once humans choose to redefine good and evil, they become beastly.

    In part three (24:30-28:00), Tim quickly goes over the Messianic promise that God gives in Genesis 3:15:
    “And I will set hostility
    Between you [serpent] and the woman,
    And between your [serpent] seed and her seed;
    He [seed of woman] shall strike you [serpent] on the head,
    And you [serpent] shall strike him [seed of woman] on the heel.”

    Tim says that this sets up the main plot conflict for the biblical story. Humans must recover their ability to rule over the beasts, and this will be done by the true Son of Man who strikes the serpent.

    In part four (28:00-end), Tim overviews the whole biblical fall narrative. Tim says that the story of Noah is significant, as it represents a failed restart of creation. Noah was set up to save the animals from the flood. He did so, and seemed to act as a true son of man. Noah gets off the boat, and God recommissions Noah to “be fruitful and multiply” and fill the earth. Then God pivots and gives humanity a new diet:
    “The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given.
    Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.
    Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood" (Genesis 9:1-4).

    Noah eventually falls away from following God’s blessing. And one of his son’s (Ham) descendants Nimrod is mentioned as being the first “hunter” in the Bible. Nimrod was also the founder of Babylon. Why are we told both of these details about Nimrod’s life? Because it represents an archetype that is developing. Humanity is now choosing to become part of a cycle of acting like beasts, creating a violent, killing culture.

    Since humanity has chosen this path, they now must be saved by the true Son of Man. He will be the seed of the woman, but instead of giving in to the violence of humanity, he will choose to overcome it.

    Thank you to all of our supporters!

    Show Produced By:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins

    Show Music:
    Defender Instrumental, Tents
    Pilgrim, Instrumentals
    The Size of Grace, Beautiful Eulogy

    Show Resources:
    Our video on the Son of Man: INSERT LINK
    Gerhard von Rad, Genesis: A Commentary
    Crispin Fletcher-Louis, Jesus Monotheism
    Richard Bauckham, Living with Other Creatures
    James Hamilton, With the Clouds of Heaven: The Book of Daniel in Biblical Theology
    Brandon Crowe, The Last Adam: A Theology of the Obedient Life of Jesus in the Gospels


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    Humans & Animals - Son of Man E2 Jan 21, 2019
    Show notes

    Welcome to episode two of our series discussing the biblical theme of the Son of Man. In this episode, Tim and Jon discuss humanity's role in relation to other parts of creation, specifically animals.

    In part one (0:00-30:15), the guys briefly recap the first episode and quickly go over Daniel’s dream in Daniel 7, where he has a vision of the Son of Man appearing.

    Tim then dives into the language and ideas presented in Genesis 1 and specifically focuses on the order of creation and how the days are paired.
    Genesis 1:1-2:
    In the beginning God created the skies and the land
    and the land was wild and waste, and darkness was over the face of the watery deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    Wild (tohu) = unordered
    Waste (vohu) = uninhabited
    Day 1 - Light: Separated from dark, day and night.
    Day 4 - Lights appointed to rule the day and night.
    Day 2 - Waters above separated from waters below.
    Day 5 - Creatures in waters below, creatures in waters above.
    “And God created the great sea monsters..." (1:21)
    “And God blessed them, saying be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters…” (1:22)
    Day 3 - Water separated from dry land.
    “Let the land bring forth (ותוצא) plants and vegetation and seed-producing plants and trees producing fruit.” (1:12)
    Day 6 - Creatures on the land.
    “Let the land bring forth (ותוצא) living beasts by their kinds.” (1:25)

    “Let us create the human (ha-adam) in our image and as our likeness…
    And God blessed them, and said, (1) be fruitful and multiply and fill the land and subdue it, and rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the beasts on the land.” (1:26-28)

    Gen 2:1-3: God rests on the seventh day, which does not end.

    Tim then focuses on humanity's relationship with animals. Tim notices that humans are the “second comers” to creation, who are given the responsibility to rule over the animals who came first. This is a pattern that shows itself many times in Genesis. (Think about Joseph’s sons later in the story.)

    Tim then asks what it means for humans to be called to rule over the animals. Tim cites Richard Bauckham’s book Living with Other Creatures,

    “It is not often well enough noticed that the command God gives to humanity refers to two rather different matters. It refers first to the relationship of humans to the earth, secondly to their relationship to other living creatures...and they are not the same thing. Humans are not alone in being told to be fruitful and to multiply and to fill, the first and birds were given the same blessing on day 5. Only humans are told to fill and to subdue the land. In the narrative this refers clearly to agriculture, taking possession of the soil and working it in order to make it yield more food for humans than it would otherwise do.

    But what about all the other land animals? How does humanity’s role of subduing land relate to God’s blessing of the animals to fill the land? Notice God’s next words to the humans:
    See, I have given you (humans) every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food. (Gen 1: 29– 30)

    Why does God tell humans that he has given every plant for food for the other living creatures? Surely, the reason is that it is the humans who need to know that the produce of the earth is not intended to feed them alone, but also all the living species of the earth. The clear implication is that the earth can provide enough food for all creatures. Humans are not to fill the earth and subdue it in a way that leaves no room and no sustenance for the other creatures who share the earth with them. God has given them too the right to live from the soil. So the human right to make use of the earth, to live from it, is far from unlimited. It must respect the existence of other creatures.

    The biblical portrait of human dominion over the animals must be filled out by the Bible’s vision of “royal rule.” Since Genesis depicts the image of God as a kind of royal function, the rule of a king over others, it is worth recalling the only passage in the law of Moses that refers to the role of the king in Israel (Deut. 17: 14– 20). There it is emphasized that the king is one among his brothers and sisters, his fellow-Israelites, and should not forget it. He should not accumulate wealth or arms or indulge in any of the ways kings usually exalt themselves above their subjects. Only if they remember their fundamental solidarity with their people will kings be able to rule truly for the benefit of their people. Similarly, only when humans remember their fundamental solidarity with their fellow-creatures will they be able to exercise their distinctive authority within creation for the benefit of other creatures.” (pp. 226-228)

    In part two (30:15-41:30), Jon asks about carnivorous animals like lions. Tim says that life survives at the expense of other lives right now, but apparently, in the new creation, that will fundamentally change.

    Tim says that humans bear responsibility for animal’s destiny; that’s why we are called to rule them. This is humanity acting in their identity of the divine image.

    Tim shares this quote:
    “The close relation of the term for God’s image with that for the commission to exercise dominion emerges quite clearly when we have understood selem as a plastic image. Just as powerful earthly kings, to indicate their claim to dominion, erect an image of themselves in the provinces of their empire where they do not personally appear, so man is placed upon earth in God’s image as God’s sovereign emblem. He is really only God’s representative, summoned to maintain and enforce God’s claim to dominion over the earth.”
    Gerhard von Rad, Genesis: A Commentary, ed. Peter Ackroyd et al., trans. John H. Marks, Revised Edition., The Old Testament Library (Philadelphia, PA: The Westminster Press, 1972), 59–60.

    Tim says that a human making an idol is an oxymoron. Humans are the image of God, so why would they make one?

    Tim then posits that in Genesis 3, an animal (the snake) is the one who deceives Adam and Eve. Humans end up getting ruled by the animals instead of ruling them.

    In part three (41:30-53:00), the guys discuss Psalm 8:

    O Lord, our Lord,
    How majestic is Your name in all the earth,
    Who have shown Your splendor above the heavens!
    ….When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
    The moon and the stars, which You have ordained;
    What is human that You take thought of him,
    And the son of man (human) that You care for him?
    Yet You have made him a little lower than elohim (God or angelic beings),
    And You crown him with glory and majesty! [kavod va-hadar ‘divine attributes’]
    You make him to rule [mashal] over the works of Your hands;
    You have put all things under his feet,
    All sheep and oxen,
    And also the beasts of the field,
    The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,
    Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.
    O Lord, our Lord,
    How majestic is Your name in all the earth!
    Notice how God’s exaltation and glorification of humans is set within an inclusion frame about God’s own majesty and reputation. An exalted humanity doesn’t compete with God, rather it increases God’s own honor, because humans are an expression of the divine beauty and creativity.

    In part four (53:00-end), Tim shares this quote:

    “One point of saying that God is the absolute sovereign (as the biblical texts say time and again) is to say that he is free: free to exalt and share his own power and divine power with those whom he wills, through a transformation of their nature and identity; free to create entities that in various ways share in his identity as ruler and judge, and who manifest his presence within the world… The God of the biblical story is able to enter into and take on the nature and identity of the very reality he has created, taking it up into his very self. God’s identity is, apparently, “sharable.” … God’s identity is not a zero-sum game. To say that God shares his identity with humanity does not mean he suffers a loss of being; on the contrary, it is actually a way of saying that his identity is magnified and his glory extended.” [Tim’s note: “and, we may add, this is the way the divine love is extended as well.”] - Crispin Fletcher-Louis, Jesus Monotheism, 310-312.

    Tim says that for God, relationship with creation means entering into a shared relationship with it.

    Show Produced By:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins

    Show Music:
    Defender Instrumental, Tents
    The Cave Resides Deep in the Forest, Artificial Music
    Talking with You, Copyright free
    Very Chill Saxaphone, Copyright free

    Show Resources:

    Gerhard von Rad, Genesis: A Commentary
    Crispin Fletcher-Louis, Jesus Monotheism
    Richard Bauckham, Living with Other Creatures.
    Our video on the Son of Man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6cWEcqxhlI&t=113s


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    The Empty Throne - Son of Man E1 Jan 14, 2019
    Show notes

    In part one (0:00-19:30), the guys discuss what “son of” means in our current culture. They bring up certain phrases like “Sons of Anarchy,” “Sons of Liberty,” etc. Tim says this means that someone identifies with an idea or ideology.

    Tim then offers the fact that historically people have referred to Jesus as Christ. Christ is actually a Greek word meaning Messiah. Messiah in Hebrew means the anointed one.

    Tim then says that Jesus never referred to himself as Christ or Messiah, and when others would refer to him as this, he would reply that he is the “Son of Man.” Why is this?

    For example in Luke 9:18-22:
    "Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, 'Who do the crowds say I am?' They replied, 'Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.' 'But what about you?' he asked. 'Who do you say I am?' Peter answered, 'God’s Messiah.' Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. And he said, 'The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.'"

    Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man in the third person immediately after Peter called him the Messiah.

    Tim then posits that Paul doesn’t use the phrase “the Son of Man” in his writings. Instead, he uses phrases like “the firstborn of all creation” or “the new humanity.” Tim says this is because Paul is taking the message of Jesus to an international audience that isn’t familiar with what the Son of Man means.

    So what does the Son of Man mean? And where does it come from?

    Well in part two (19:30-32:00), Tim takes us to Daniel 7, a famous dream that Daniel had where the Son of Man appears. Tim says that this dream is very iconic and well known in Jewish history. Everyone would have known about it.

    Daniel has a dream about a succession of beasts that trample humanity. There are thrones established in the heavens over the earth, but only one of them is filled. It’s filled by the Ancient of Days, which is Daniel’s phrase for God/Yahweh. So there is an empty throne, then a figure called the Son of Man rides up on a cloud to the Ancient of Days. The Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days and then is given dominion. The Son of Man then sits down on the empty throne.

    In part three (32:00-end), the guys break down the phrase the Son of Man. If someone refers to themselves as “the Dark Knight,” people automatically know that they are referring to Batman. Similarly, if someone calls themselves “the Son of Man,” they are referring to a certain character in the Hebrew storyline. They discuss what it means for Jesus to be comfortable inserting himself into Daniel’s dream.

    Thank you to all of our supporters!

    Show Produced By:
    Dan Gummel, Jon Collins

    Show Music:
    Defender Instrumental, Tents
    Someday Be Free, Copyright Free Instrumental.
    Miss Emili, General Vibe

    Show Resources
    Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2FvYzGb


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    God Series Recap - God E22 Jan 07, 2019
    Show notes

    In this episode, Tim and Jon revisit the different ideas and themes that have been discussed in our podcast series on the identity of God in the Hebrew scriptures.

    In part one (0:00-27:30), the guys briefly outline some of the ideas in the series. Jon asks Tim if in the garden of Eden is the serpent’s offer to the humans of becoming “like God,” or in Hebrew, “like elohim.” Does it actually imply that humanity was looking to be in a different class of being than the one they were created to be? Tim says he thinks this is right. It’s about an overreach from what your created realm of authority is supposed to be.
    Tim reflects on the story of the Hebrew Bible as a whole saying that it’s a commentary on God’s intention for humanity to rule as his images. And while they may be lower in class than the spiritual beings/elohim. They are the image of the elohim of elohim (Yahweh) and are therefore entitled to rule. Tim says the question is whether humanity will choose to know good and evil by grabbing it out of turn, or if they will learn it relationally by being in relationship with Yahweh.

    Tim says that these stories are designed to be elusive and allusive. They are supposed to be somewhat vague and not to be read like a textbook. They are also supposed to allude to other stories in the Bible.

    In part two (27:30-49:00), the guys continue to reflect on the takeaways from their discussions in the God series. Jon says that he wishes he could arrive at more closure around the idea of the Trinity, but he wonders if that’s even possible. Tim sympathizes and says that the idea to some degree lacks language and human ability to comprehend it. Tim says that Peter says people are made to be “participators in the divine nature.” 2 Peter 1:3: “His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.”

    In part three (49:00-end), Tim says there are a few other things that he learned in the series. For example, in the ancient world, the concept of giants is a huge idea. Giants are always connected to being divine or semi-divine. Tim says the Hebrew word nimrod actually means rebel in Hebrew. Tim also says that he realized how huge Daniel 7 is. It’s a chapter that is crucial to understanding Jesus’ worldview and who he thought he was. Tim also mentions two books (see resources) that helped him understand the ancient Hebrew view of God/Yahweh among other gods.

    The guys wrap up the conversation by talking a little bit about the upcoming Q+R and looking forward to the Son of Man series premiering next year.

    Thank you to all of our supporters!

    Show resources:
    The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel by Benjamin D. Sommer
    The Two Powers in Heaven by Alan Segal
    Our video on God: https://bit.ly/2CycuKe

    Show Produced By:
    Dan Gummel

    Show Music:
    Defender Instrumental. Tents
    Faith, Tae the Producer
    Praise through the Valley, Tae the Producer


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